# One Rake Vs. Another



## rteitloff (Jan 17, 2017)

I'm looking at upgrading from a bar rake to an 8 wheel rake. I can rule out anything new, and anything high-capacity - partly because of budget, but also because of the size of fields, shape of fields, and what is available used in my area.

I'm trying to compare the style of rakes or rake frames I guess. Looking at the M&W, Sitrex, and Panorama Rakes that have long bars that fold out and rotate.... comparing those to a Gehl or vermeer that has a more vertical fold.

Anyone have anything to say about either? I'm leaning more towards the Gehl vertical fold, but the other has a kicker and is a 10 wheel that I can fold the last 2 up for my normal cuttings and drop them down for the thinner fields I cut.

I square bale with a New Holland 273, which has a 4 ft pickup.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

I think your 273 would not like the windrows these rakes would make,IMO. That being said the one kicker would be better


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

I have a 12 wheel H&S rake and my neighbor has a Vermeer wheel rake. His is about 2 years old and has a kicker wheel. For dry hay you want the kicker. My old H&S is alright for round baling I'd not recommend it for small squares. He bales with a 336 John Deere and most of the time he rakes single rows, only uses one side of the Vermeer. I know the couple of times I have reraked some rows, if the hay didn't make it the day before, with my rotary rake he could go a bit faster. The rows he raked they could only bale in 1st gear on the 4020 and the rotary raked rows they were walking along in 3 3rd gear. Just something to think of for the future if nothing else.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

I would not recommend a v-rake for a small square baler unless the crop is very light, and even then it is hard to rake a double windrow with one. A v-rake is more suited to a round baler, which has a bigger appetite for windrows.

If you really do want a fingerwheel v-rake, the type you have shown is the cheapest and nastiest kind. I know, I have one. There are two problems. 1. The frame is in front of the wheels so in heavy crops it blocks up. Mine has 5 wheels on each side and this season's hay crop was so thick I had to take the two outer wheels of each side and replace them with tractor front weights for counterbalancing. 2. Once they wear a bit they flop about sideways and cannot make a consistent windrow. You would be better off with a hydraulic fold unit which lets you adjust both the windrow width and the raking width positively, and which has the frame behind the fingerwheels. Mine is a Sitrex H90 and I am looking for an Explorer.

The best rake I have used for small square bales in a Lely Lotus 300 twin rotor rake. It rakes about a 3 metre or 10 foot windrow, quite enough for a small square baler. In fact, this season in tow hay fields I used my neighbour's Lotus 300 rather than my H90 to rake windrows for my round baler.

Why not just keep your bar rake?

Roger


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## rteitloff (Jan 17, 2017)

On all the farms I've been baling, I've been raking 2 paths into one windrow, (down and back), even on some of the thicker spots. when the windrows get large, I just slow down on the baler and let it pump them out. Most of my baling is done in high second gear, and I just slow down for thicker windrows.

I cut with a 2016 Enrossi 7' sickle mower, and tedder so I'm not trying to pick up multiple cut swaths into one like most round balers want.

My biggest thought is to be able to cut my raking time in half, and reduce the number of passes I make over the field.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

bool said:


> I would not recommend a v-rake for a small square baler unless the crop is very light, and even then it is hard to rake a double windrow with one. A v-rake is more suited to a round baler, which has a bigger appetite for windrows.
> 
> If you really do want a fingerwheel v-rake, the type you have shown is the cheapest and nastiest kind. I know, I have one. There are two problems. 1. The frame is in front of the wheels so in heavy crops it blocks up. Mine has 5 wheels on each side and this season's hay crop was so thick I had to take the two outer wheels of each side and replace them with tractor front weights for counterbalancing. 2. Once they wear a bit they flop about sideways and cannot make a consistent windrow.
> 
> ...


Ditto what Roger stated. Bi-fold rakes cost more but they are much better for raking than either one of the rakes in the photo's.


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## rteitloff (Jan 17, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> Ditto what Roger stated. Bi-fold rakes cost more but they are much better for raking than either one of the rakes in the photo's.


My fields are all very irregular shaped, hilly with swales and uneven ground. Plus my largest field is 4 acres. I cross alot of creeks, in and out of treelines too between fields. I completely agree and understand the Bi-folds are 10x better, but they are hard to find in my area and the budget just doesn't allow for one.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We own several rakes and one of them is an H&S carted V Rake. It is very similar to The Rake you're looking at. What I have fields that are very uneven hilly with swales that is The Rake I will use because it really will walk and flex with the uneven Terrain. The Carted rake's are the most agile and quick to get around in odd shaped fields. There is a learning curve


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## rteitloff (Jan 17, 2017)

endrow said:


> We own several rakes and one of them is an H&S carted V Rake. It is very similar to The Rake you're looking at. What I have fields that are very uneven hilly with swales that is The Rake I will use because it really will walk and flex with the uneven Terrain. The Carted rake's are the most agile and quick to get around in odd shaped fields. There is a learning curve


How do you like the way it folds/rolls out vs a more vertical fold like other carted style rakes? That is my concern I guess. I've heard good and alot of bad about those H&S and similar style rakes but have never used this exact one... Does the single spring do well over the uneven ground verses the vertical rakes with a spring system on each side?


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

I had a rake pretty much identical to your first picture years ago. Did not like it for square baling, at least not in heavy first cutting. Not so much because our square baler couldn't handle it - sure we could slow way down - but because it was just hard to get hay dry with it. I felt like it was just too much hay volume in a windrow to get air through the way the windrow was formed. Maybe this won't be an issue for you depending on your type and thickness of hay. But be aware that these older carted rakes don't give you near as much adjustment for windrow width vs. volume of hay in the windrow like the higher capacity wheel rakes or the more modern carted wheels rakes will.

Basically if you get into some heavy hay and wanted to narrow up the width you are raking, this will then widen out your windrow coming out the back of the rake which may then be too wide for your baler pickup. If you widen the rake out too far, which then narrows up the windrow, they have a tendency to ball up the hay and plug up. Most of the newer carted rakes I've seen have at least some adjustments for raking width independent of windrow width.

I had a kit for mine that let me lock up one side if I only wanted to rake a single windrow in heavy hay for square baling. It worked ok, but was a bolt on kit and took some time to put on/take off vs. the newer models that I think most just have a hydraulic shutoff valve for single side raking.

Eventually just went back to using a NH bar rake for square baling and dry round baling. Only used the wheel rake for running right ahead of the round baler for making baleage. Eventually sold it and went to running two NH bar rakes, now run a Kuhn rotary and a NH bar rake as backup (but mainly sits in the shed).

If there is anyway you could swing it I would highly recommend a newer used carted rake (NH Procart, Kuhn Speedrake, etc).


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

rteitloff said:


> My fields are all very irregular shaped, hilly with swales and uneven ground. Plus my largest field is 4 acres. I cross alot of creeks, in and out of treelines too between fields. I completely agree and understand the Bi-folds are 10x better, but they are hard to find in my area and the budget just doesn't allow for one.


I have an H&S X-rake, it allow you to adjust raking width (angle of wings, hydraulically ) and windrow width (adjusting of frame, hydraulically also), along the ability to use only one side at a time (manual lock out), wheels are all inside of frame (verses outside as the one's you have pictured). I can rake as little as maybe 10 foot of hay, leaving it right in the middle of my pass, up to 27-28 feet wide, all adjusted from the comfort of my cab. 

But with 4 acre or less field size, I would not be happy with my X-rake and an X-rake is much pricier.

I would stick with a bar rake (cheaper) or a rotary (more expensive). I would suggest a double hitch with the bar rake to speed up your raking, but then again small fields IDNK.

Larry


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I would imagine that with a small rotary rake, your 273 will think it died and went to heaven.. I grew up with an old wheel rake. Would not take the time to go look at one for baling small squares. I echo what many have said already, either upgrade to a rotary or stay with your bar rake. Also, if your largest field is 4 ac, I would think the mess made with double hitches or even wide rakes in first cutting for a 273 would be a sight to see; Thinking pitch fork on a gator


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

I totally missed the 4 acre max field size and irregular shaped fields comment. If it were me I'd much rather stick with a bar rake than either of the rakes you mentioned above for this type application. Those carted wheel rakes, in my experience, do not do a very good job raking sharp turns or corners. While the wheel rake may still be faster, you will also have a lot more cussing and irritation from missed hay on the ends or trying to rake point rows without missing hay or messing up other already raked up windrows.

Another though is when I had mine you pretty much had to rake all of the inside rows first (back and forth) then make your outside passes last to clean up the field. This worked ok, except then the hay you typically would need to bale first (the outside rows) were what was raked last which often times meant it wasn't as dry as rows raked first. That is how it is here anyway when we look at the raking process as the final step for dry down vs. just getting the hay into a windrow to fit through a baler. If your hay is all already perfectly dry when you start raking this doesn't really matter or apply.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Trotwood2955 said:


> I totally missed the 4 acre max field size and irregular shaped fields comment. If it were me I'd much rather stick with a bar rake than either of the rakes you mentioned above for this type application. Those carted wheel rakes, in my experience, do not do a very good job raking sharp turns or corners. While the wheel rake may still be faster, you will also have a lot more cussing and irritation from missed hay on the ends or trying to rake point rows without missing hay or messing up other already raked up windrows.
> 
> Another though is when I had mine you pretty much had to rake all of the inside rows first (back and forth) then make your outside passes last to clean up the field. This worked ok, except then the hay you typically would need to bale first (the outside rows) were what was raked last which often times meant it wasn't as dry as rows raked first. That is how it is here anyway when we look at the raking process as the final step for dry down vs. just getting the hay into a windrow to fit through a baler. If your hay is all already perfectly dry when you start raking this doesn't really matter or apply.


TW-sounds like you are describing my conditions exactly although, I never used a carted rake. Did use a NH152 at the landfill but that was to rake mulch hay for rolling and we did not really care what the bottom looked like.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

r82230 said:


> I have an H&S X-rake, it allow you to adjust raking width (angle of wings, hydraulically ) and windrow width (adjusting of frame, hydraulically also), along the ability to use only one side at a time (manual lock out), wheels are all inside of frame (verses outside as the one's you have pictured). I can rake as little as maybe 10 foot of hay, leaving it right in the middle of my pass, up to 27-28 feet wide, all adjusted from the comfort of my cab.
> 
> But with 4 acre or less field size, I would not be happy with my X-rake and an X-rake is much pricier.
> 
> Larry


Larry

May I ask what a H&S X-rake is? I've owned a H&S Hi-cap 14 wheel rake since '02 that's raked 1000's of acres that has raked patches as small as 2 acres. I agree setting the raking width by moving hyd lever is the "cats meow"  I have to turn a crank to adjust windrow width but once set I rarely change it.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> Larry
> May I ask what a H&S X-rake is? I've owned a H&S Hi-cap 14 wheel rake since '02 that's raked 1000's of acres that has raked patches as small as 2 acres. I agree setting the raking width by moving hyd lever is the "cats meow"  I have to turn a crank to adjust windrow width but once set I rarely change it.


Jim,

Here is a web site (if I do it right) and I will try to attach a brochure (BTW I have the X-15 model).

http://www.hsmfgco.com/detail_xrakes.html

Larry


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

If you have a bar rake, why not find a second bar rake and double hitch if your doubling rows anyway? Then if you do have some really thick hay you could set them apart and not kill your baler. I think it would be cheaper and work in your size fields.


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

Sounds like your fields are like mine.. I have a Befco 8 wheel rake and HATE it, it will bunch & plug in the first cut every time, grass is just too thick, the tires are on the outside of the frame also..

I think I would trade mine for a rola bar rake if I could find one in good shape.. I find that the fingers will drag going over a slight hill and if I want a smaller row it's wrench time to adjust, I can move the arms to adjust the width but it only leads to more problems in the field..

I never thought about removing a wheel to reduce the amount of p/u, might give that a try this year.. that is if we ever get some rain, it's not looking good for moisture at all in my parts....

Chris


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

I wouldn't recommend one with tires outside the frame like mine.... I am going to attempt to trade it for a 3pt rolla bar this year...


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

I used a new holland 258 roll bar rake for years then bought a kuhn 4121 single rotor rake . I couldn't believe how much better job the kuhn did . The last rake that I bought was a Kuhn 9032. It does a great job and you can make the size of windrow that you want.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Jim,
> 
> Here is a web site (if I do it right) and I will try to attach a brochure (BTW I have the X-15 model).
> 
> Larry


Larry

I envy you. If I wasn't in the ""twilight of my hay baling career"" I'd own a rake similar to yours. Since I've resolved myself to only bale my hay(30 acres) plus a few neighbors I guess my H&S Hi-cap will have to make do.

Jim


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Jim

In heavy 1st cutting, it is nice to just open the rake up to about 10-11 foot and leave the windrow just about dead center (depending on how I set the wings). It doesn't need the center kicker wheel because of the over lap (offsetting) wings. This means no double windrows in heavy hay (unless you want one for some odd reason).

Then in the other cuttings (and lighter 1st cutting), the ability to go anywhere up to 27-28 foot is also a dream come true. The biggest draw back is this rake is 'pricier' than other wheel rakes. But as I weighted all the features, it won, hands down. From the rake wheels being in front of the frame to the adjustability.

As of right now, I am looking at trading it in for an adjustable, double rotary rake. Reason, like all wheel rakes the ash content is higher, than a roll-bar or rotary. The adjustable rotary, will be faster when raking heavy 1st (raking two windrows at a time), but a little slower with lighter crops (21 feet width verses 27 feet of width). Sometimes, you just need to have a 'trade off' I guess.

BTW, I still have (and plan to keep) a roll-bar rake. There are times that every rake has it place IMHO and I like to have a 'backup', if ever needed.

Larry


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Larry

My H&S hi-cap bi-fold has the capability of raking from 6' to 28' just by moving tractor hyd lever but it not as easy to transport & access field entrances as well as your rake. What is the major downside to hay containing more ash content? I have yet to have 1 of my hay buyers to complain about the "ash content" of my bales.

Thanks,Jim


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> What is the major downside to hay containing more ash content? I have yet to have 1 of my hay buyers to complain about the "ash content" of my bales.
> Thanks,Jim


I am on a 'gravel pile' per se, so when my customers mention 'ash content', they are really referring to the amount of dirt (dust) in my hay. Some call it ash, some call it dust, I just don't argue with the customer. When the fields get extremely dry, I can have a dust cloud within & behind my rake (think of the pig pen character in the Peanuts comic strip), as soon as the morning dew burns off. But this is in MY area once again. Disadvantage in dry sandy loam soils with wheel rakes being ground driven.  With the picture you posted, sometimes in my area you would not be able to see the tractor or operator!!

Larry


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## atgreene (May 19, 2013)

I've wanted to go to a carted v, but everyone tells me the rotary is better for my small irregular fields. I run two jd rollerbar rakes with a new Holland flat hitch. Ideally, probably if I had a bridge hitch so I can alternate two into one or two separate winrows, I might be happy. But my rakes are worn so I'm leaning 13' rotary. Keep us advised on what you decide.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

If you convert those bar rakes to hyd drive they do a better job in all conditions. If the fields are irregular and on the small side you will be real happy with the corners especially.


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## rteitloff (Jan 17, 2017)

carcajou said:


> If you convert those bar rakes to hyd drive they do a better job in all conditions. If the fields are irregular and on the small side you will be real happy with the corners especially.


When you say hyd drive, what are you referring to? Putting an actuator on the gear lock arm to engage and disengage the gearbox??


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

rteitloff said:


> When you say hyd drive, what are you referring to? Putting an actuator on the gear lock arm to engage and disengage the gearbox??


Gearbox is replaced by a hyd orbit motor.


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## Dirtboy (Apr 5, 2015)

Widairy said:


> I have a 12 wheel H&S rake and my neighbor has a Vermeer wheel rake. His is about 2 years old and has a kicker wheel. For dry hay you want the kicker. My old H&S is alright for round baling I'd not recommend it for small squares. He bales with a 336 John Deere and most of the time he rakes single rows, only uses one side of the Vermeer. I know the couple of times I have reraked some rows, if the hay didn't make it the day before, with my rotary rake he could go a bit faster. The rows he raked they could only bale in 1st gear on the 4020 and the rotary raked rows they were walking along in 3 3rd gear. Just something to think of for the future if nothing else.


Is that because the windrows would be to wide for the 336? I was considering a ar10 rake was wondering the same thing. I cut with a 926 moco


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## Dirtboy (Apr 5, 2015)

Widairy said:


> I have a 12 wheel H&S rake and my neighbor has a Vermeer wheel rake. His is about 2 years old and has a kicker wheel. For dry hay you want the kicker. My old H&S is alright for round baling I'd not recommend it for small squares. He bales with a 336 John Deere and most of the time he rakes single rows, only uses one side of the Vermeer. I know the couple of times I have reraked some rows, if the hay didn't make it the day before, with my rotary rake he could go a bit faster. The rows he raked they could only bale in 1st gear on the 4020 and the rotary raked rows they were walking along in 3 3rd gear. Just something to think of for the future if nothing else.


Is that because the windrows would be to wide for the 336? I was considering a ar10 rake was wondering the same thing. I cut with a 926 moco


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