# Diesel exhaust emissions?



## MScowman (May 18, 2011)

Does anyone think the Diesel exhaust standards will ever be rolled back or eased up or are they here to stay?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Here to stay.....


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## PackMan2170 (Oct 6, 2014)

Here to stay..... Until the Revolution......


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## jeff outwest (Sep 13, 2009)

Environmental laws give no true goals or thresh hold of success.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I read recently where the Europeans have proposed Stage V and it will likely be introduced. If the EPA will follow here with Tier 5 is anyone's guess, but I'd say it's probably likely. The good news is it's mainly around the use of a Diesel Particulate Filter and compliance enforcement.

A few years back, the EPA got a request through the courts to treat carbon dioxide as a human health hazard. With this regulatory power they'll likely start rolling out rules restricting the amount of CO2 you can put out. That's the direction I suspect they'll likely go. We'll all probably end up with little electric robots and drones working the fields 24/7 while we sit on the porch, read Facebook, and Tweet profound comments to the blogosphere.


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## PackMan2170 (Oct 6, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> A few years back, the EPA got a request through the courts to treat carbon dioxide as a human health hazard. With this regulatory power they'll likely start rolling out rules restricting the amount of CO2 you can put out. That's the direction I suspect they'll likely go. We'll all probably end up with little electric robots and drones working the fields 24/7 while we sit on the porch, read Facebook, and Tweet profound comments to the blogosphere.


If thats the case, I will be demanding some big, fat O2 credits for all that nice, fresh, pure, filtered oxygen that my crops make while removing other people's CO2


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

PackMan2170 said:


> If thats the case, I will be demanding some big, fat O2 credits for all that nice, fresh, pure, filtered oxygen that my crops make while removing other people's CO2


And I want a water conservation credit every time we get flooding..

Ohh, and excess rain as a air pollution, or some other form of pollution!

Ralph

Elect me as EPA Czar..


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## MScowman (May 18, 2011)

Sorry about posting this in here, maybe it should've been in the political forum. I guess my days of buying new tractors are over.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

MScowman said:


> Sorry about posting this in here, maybe it should've been in the political forum. I guess my days of buying new tractors are over.


It's not political, just reality....Look at the bright side, the little robots won't cause much compaction. I'm going to put little spiky feet on mine.


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## 1oldphart (Aug 20, 2014)

just look here in California, trucks older than 2010 can't be driven on the road and you can't sell them in the state. yellow iron had to be listed in 2008 and starting 2019 you have to update to tier 4 5% of your horsepower every year with equipment that has doubled in cost with less than half the reliability. this will continue unabated until the country takes a severe course correction that I don't see in the near future...paul


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## MScowman (May 18, 2011)

Someone smarter than I please chime in,

Do the particulates in diesel exhaust fall back to earth? That is what I was taught in school anyway.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

MScowman said:


> Someone smarter than I please chime in,
> 
> Do the particulates in diesel exhaust fall back to earth? That is what I was taught in school anyway.


Not sure about the smarter part, but yes. It's caused by gravity. Not with a thud though.....it blows away but eventually we either suck it in during breathing or it falls to the ground.

Generally, Diesel Particulate Matter (DPM) is divided into three basic fractions:

Solids - dry carbon particles, commonly known as soot,

SOF - heavy hydrocarbons adsorbed and condensed on the carbon particles, called Soluble Organic Fraction,

SO4 - sulfate fraction, hydrated sulfuric acid.

The actual composition of DPM will depend on the particular engine and its load and speed conditions. "Wet" particulates can contain up to 60% of the hydrocarbon fraction (SOF), while "dry" particulates are comprised mostly of dry carbon. The amount of sulfates is directly related to the sulfur contents of the diesel fuel.

Diesel particulates are very fine. The primary carbon particles have a diameter of 0.01 - 0.08 micron, while the agglomerated particles diameter is in the 0.08 to 1 micron range. As such, diesel particulate matter is almost totally respirable and has a significant health impact on humans. It has been classified by several government agencies as either "human carcinogen" or "probable human carcinogen". It is also known to increase the risk of heart and respiratory diseases.

The exhaust gases which are discharged from the engine contain several constituents that are harmful to human health and to the environment:

Carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons (HC), and aldehydes are generated in the exhaust as the result of incomplete combustion of fuel. A significant portion of exhaust hydrocarbons is also derived from the engine lube oil. Hydrocarbons and aldehydes are major contributors to the characteristic diesel smell. Hydrocarbons also have a negative environmental effect, being an important component of smog.

Nitrogen oxides (NOx) are generated from nitrogen and oxygen under the high pressure and temperature conditions in the engine cylinder. NOx consist mostly of nitric oxide (NO) and a small fraction of nitrogen dioxide (NO2). Nitrogen dioxide is very toxic. NOx emissions are also a serious environmental concern because of their role in the smog formation.

Sulfur dioxide (SO2) is generated from the sulfur present in diesel fuel. The concentration of SO2 in the exhaust gas depends on the sulfur content of the fuel. Low sulfur fuels of less than 0.05% sulfur was introduced for most diesel engine applications throughout the USA and Canada. Sulfur dioxide is a colorless toxic gas with a characteristic, irritating odor. Oxidation of sulfur dioxide produces sulfur trioxide which is the precursor of sulfuric acid which, in turn, is responsible for the sulfate particulate matter emissions. Sulfur oxides have a profound impact on environment being the major cause of acid rains.

Interestingly, because of the move to low sulfur diesel fuel, the amount of SO2 being emitted has reduced drastically and we now need to add sulfur in our fertilizer.

One of the more interesting phenomena involves tires.....You ever wonder where all that rubber goes when you wear your tires out?


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Having read all that above sruff, I'll plug mjy air filter so my pred tier 3 tractor belches even more smoke.....lol

No blue fuel caps on this farm. DEF is great for top dressing hay as a foiliar inoculant, but for anything else... nah.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Mike120 said:


> One of the more interesting phenomena involves tires.....You ever wonder where all that rubber goes when you wear your tires out?


Do not worry about the rubber, the dangerous stuff is the carbon black used to make tyres black and increase wear characteristics. Rubber is not naturally black and early automotive tyres were not black but had poor wearing. Although only classified as a class 2B carcinogen ( possibly dangerous to humans) there is about 6 1/2 million tons used in tyres and a further 1 2/3 million tons in other rubber products each year.

So the question behind Mike 120's question is:

Where does the 8 million or so tons of worn out rubber based carbon black go each year?


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

One of the jobs I worked on over a couple of years was a rubber plant within a tire plant. The carbon black powder gets everywhere. I have a pair of boots that will still blacken your hands if you touch the laces some 6 years later. Everyone in the silo area looked like they were in blackface with little white circles where the goggles were and respirator ring.

Interesting about the place, no gauge had units. Dials went 1-10 or A-Z with the normal range marked. No temperatures, no pressures, no weights, nothing so people couldn't steal rubber blend info. The bags of additives had generic letter designations.

Also forced clothes change into their clothing on the way in and out and shower required on the way out so you can't steal a sample of blend.



Coondle said:


> Do not worry about the rubber, the dangerous stuff is the carbon black used to make tyres black and increase wear characteristics. Rubber is not naturally black and early automotive tyres were not black but had poor wearing. Although only classified as a class 2B carcinogen ( possibly dangerous to humans) there is about 6 1/2 million tons used in tyres and a further 1 2/3 million tons in other rubber products each year.
> 
> So the question behind Mike 120's question is:
> 
> Where does the 8 million or so tons of worn out rubber based carbon black go each year?


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Coondle said:


> Do not worry about the rubber, the dangerous stuff is the carbon black used to make tyres black and increase wear characteristics. Rubber is not naturally black and early automotive tyres were not black but had poor wearing. Although only classified as a class 2B carcinogen ( possibly dangerous to humans) there is about 6 1/2 million tons used in tyres and a further 1 2/3 million tons in other rubber products each year.
> 
> So the question behind Mike 120's question is:
> 
> *Where does the 8 million or so tons of worn out rubber based carbon black go each year?*


Easy answer... intoi the ground. I find it amazing that all the rubber worn on the interstates from hunbdreds of thousands of tires is nowhere to be seen.... You see, the carbon thing is like global waeming.... A trumped up scenario to advance the tree hugger go green scenario.... on your dime of course.


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## MScowman (May 18, 2011)

ARD Farm said:


> Easy answer... intoi the ground. I find it amazing that all the rubber worn on the interstates from hunbdreds of thousands of tires is nowhere to be seen.... You see, the carbon thing is like global waeming.... A trumped up scenario to advance the tree hugger go green scenario.... on your dime of course.


All the while AlGore and a few others are laughing all the way to the bank.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Actually, the intake air on a Tier 4 final engine is dirtier than the exhaust.... Of course at what price? The diesel engine is just about extinct, especially in light of the stringent emissions mandates, now and in the future, in fact, all the engine manufacturers are looking toward alternate fuels to negate the (unreliable) emissions hardware.

Our shop (I work for a large truck dealership and privare trucking company part time) is predominately doing emissions related repairs now. Probably 80% of the shop work is emissions related, from DEF injection to particulate cannister issues.

Freightliner actually offers an LNG fueled truck for local application and has built an LNG road tractor. {problem is, the fueling). LNG is under high pressure so the fuel vessels have to be heavy to withstand the pressure and you have to be qualified to fuel one.

However, an LNG diesel engine needs none of the emissions components that a diesel fueled engine does.

Why I'm purposely staying away from any tractor with a blue (DEF) fuel cap. Every manufacturer from Freightliner to JD, shares the same components (don't believe what a sales drummer tells you about 'their' sysrem being better.... 'cause it aint. All the same failure prone components (read lowest bidder) in every system.

Diagnosis and repair has become so techinical that in our shop (it's big btw), a mechanic (now called a service technician) plugs into the diagnosric port on a truck (or tractor in a tractor dealership) and connectts to the factory via modem and the factory diagnoses the issues. With Tier 4 emissions hardware/software, troubleshooting has been removed from the hands of the local dealership, they cannot do it anymore.

Our dealership service manager and I are good friends, we hunt together. I mentioned to him this spring that NH wanted me to demo a new TN series here on the farm. He said and I quote.... Forget that shit, keep your Tier 3 interm engines and when they need rebuilt, get them rebuilt...The new stuff is all junk (engine/emissions wise).

The issue looming on the horizion is that at some point, you will be forced into Tier 4 and beyond emissions compliant engines because at some point the government will make it illegal to rebuild/reman a pre Tier 4 engine.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> The issue looming on the horizion is that at some point, you will be forced into Tier 4 and beyond emissions compliant engines because at some point the government will make it illegal to rebuild/reman a pre Tier 4 engine.


That sure would piss off a lot of antique collectors/restorers.

Be a cold day in hell before I scrap a few of my grandfathers tractors out because of some idjits in Washington.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

mlappin said:


> That sure would piss off a lot of antique collectors/restorers.
> Be a cold day in hell before I scrap a few of my grandfathers tractors out because of some idjits in Washington.


Isnt the left coast doing that now?


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Gee, I think they are in Californica.. It's PC after all.....

The government mandate for 6-7 and 8 diesels is already inked. I believe 2020 is the cut off date for reman parts and short blocks for pre-Tier 4 engines. I'll have to check but I heard rumblings to that effect.

I don't believe it impacts gasoline engines, just the Rudolph Diesel variety.

I believe you'll see a shift toward alternative fueling in the future, most likely NG as the infrastructure and fueling issues are worked through.

Like I said, all the engine builders right now offer alternative fueled engines so it's not like they are caught with their drawers down like was the case with DEF and particulate filters. Thats the main reason Caterpillar went from the premier on road engine builder to zip in a year. Their 'breakthrough technology' was a bust.

I've seen some of the ACCERT 16 liter engines in the shop. They are positively covered with all sorts of devices that supposedly cut emissions but in fact, severely shorten engine life and are failure prone. Imagine, an engine with a 'furnace' mounted behind the turbo in the exhaust stream with of all things a spark plug to ignite the sprayed in fuel-air mixture to buen off the particulates.

Cat knew they couldn't comply with the Tier 4 mandates so they paid the first fine and then ceased production alltogether, concentrating on the off road/vocational market. Problem is, now that market has to be Tier 4 compliant as well.

Detroit fiddled for a while with a PTO driven (from the turbocharger) supercharger to increase boost. That was a failure so they went EGR with DEF injection and a particulare filter/trap just like Vo-Mack uses and Cummins uses. Problem with all of it is, they produce and sell those engines to customers and then the customers have to deal with it.

Cummins ISX engines are turbocharger failure prone and the DDEC (Detroit) engines carbon up the intake runner so bad (with egr gases and particulates), the sensors foul and the engine derates. I've seen DDEC intake runners that look like there are stalagmites hanging inside and that junk is hell on inrake valves and seats....

The real answer is of course we (as this country) need to quit trying to set a world example in 'being green' and get the government the hell out of private business.

If it keeps on going as it is going, we become less and less productive, hard goods cost more and the frustration level increases.

Why I like Donald. He's about being simple. We all need to be simpler.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Always keep in mind that there is no 'breakthrough technology' despite what JD blows about. Everyone is using the same componentry made by the same manufacturers to achieve the Tier 4 compliance. You'll find the same components in trucks as well as farm tractors and even school busses....

No 'blue' fuel caps for me and by 2020, I'll be sitting in my rocking chair anyway. been downsizing and making it a hobby anyway.

My Kubby's should last at least that long, probably longer because I maintain the heck out of them. When I give it fuel, I want to see some black soot eminate from the exhaust stack. I was always brought up to the mantra that 'If there ain't no smoke, there ain't no fire'..........


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Well, the old iron will likely retire itself due to lack of parts and knowledgeable mechanics. My 7710 has been sitting at the dealer for the last 5 weeks because the only guy they've got that can split an old tractor has been too busy to get to it. He finally started on it yesterday. His former boss, in the dealer's main store, died a few months ago and they don't have anyone there with his capabilities. Good mechanics are a dying breed, fixing stuff is getting harder with the new technology, and most kids don't want to get their hands dirty.



ARD Farm said:


> Diagnosis and repair has become so techinical that in our shop (it's big btw), a mechanic (now called a service technician) plugs into the diagnosric port on a truck (or tractor in a tractor dealership) and connectts to the factory via modem and the factory diagnoses the issues. With Tier 4 emissions hardware/software, troubleshooting has been removed from the hands of the local dealership, they cannot do it anymore.


The lack of diagnostic skills will cripple the mechanical repair business and the lack of parts will pretty much kill it. The culture today is the "latest and greatest" and sometimes I wonder why I continue to nurse along a 30 year old tractor, other than I like it and I'm too cheap to invest in a newer one. Although, after cutting a field the other day with one of my open station tractors, in triple digit temperatures, I started rethinking the "cheap" part. I going to try "not thinking" while I bale today.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

If it ain't got a cab, air ride seat, a good stereo and ac, I don't want it. My only 'open station' unit is my lawnmower.

On the subject of old is obsolete because it cannot be repaired.... Most of the stuff today far as emissions components are/is plug and play. The exception is the DEF injection nozzles. Those can be cleaned of salts deposits with a dunk in hot water and a blast from an air hose.

Problem is, most take some time (read money) to access. On a big truck, typically, it's a grand to get to the nozzle and 15 minutes in a hot water bath to clean it. Thats progress at it's finest.

My big lingering question is, of course....What do you do when you are halfway done in a field with an impending rain event and your Tier 4 unit derates? It's not able to go in 'limp home mode' because it's being used so limp home mode is out of the question. You call the dealership and a technician comes out with his laptop and plugs in and hopefully gets a signal so he (or she) can download the error codes to the manufacturer. All well and good if it's a 'fieldside fix'. Not so good if it's a parts replacement scenario. They bring a 'loaner' unit? Probably not.

Like the particulate cannisters (that are part of the system). They have a definitive lifespan. Everytime they regenerate, the soot is burned to ash inside the cannister, with the introduction of diesel fuel, the internal temperature of the substrate causes ignition of the introduced fuel and the soot is consumed but, ash remains and at some point the cannister has to be replaced. Guess what?... Knowing most farmers they aren't going to be monitoring the emissions systems that closely and a full can derates the engine as well.

Kind of a viscious circle perpetrated by our friendly government I'd say and you as the end user get to hold the bag.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I would hope that the new Tier 4 compliant tractors are at least using a pump purge system instead of the original air purge system. The original system was horrible because when DEF is exposed to air, it crystalizes in the supply lines.

Def must be purged from the lines as part of the shutdown sequence. It cannot stay stagnant in the lines for any extended length of time because it is corrosive to components.

Likewise, in clod weather, the def tank must be heated with coolant or the def solidifies to slush and cannot be pumped or injected. I think it solidifies at 34 degrees (f).

Far as I'm concerned it all a joke perpetrated on the American consumer by the gummit.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I got to thinking about this today while tedding hay with my Grandfathers 51 year old Oliver, no easier to get rid of the small time operators or even the average family farm if they can't afford to replace their tractors once repair parts aren't available (if thats the case in 2020). A lot easier for the gummint to control a handful of operators in each county or state than a thousand. How long has the official viewpoint been "get big or get out?"

I'm sure some will argue that having to replace all these old engines with new tier whatever would be a boost to the economy, I call bullshit on that one. Even if you could retrofit an older tractor with a new engine it would still be prohibitively expensive, wonder what it would cost the railroads to retrofit all those locomotives? Or al the utilities around the country?

All this crap takes place and it might start to look like the Amish had it all figured out already cause the country sure could slow down in a real hurry.

Wish I had invested more when I was younger, about the time all tier whatever stuff had to be used I could retire early, sit on the back porch with a 12 pack and watch whoever I rented the farm to and their help stand around their brand new $400,000 tractor scratching their heads trying to figure out why it won't run (again).

Last couple of years have seen a LOT of brand new semi's sitting on the side of the road with the hood up, betting a sensor that's worth $20 but retails for $400 just went out, again.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Your last paragraph summed it up pretty well.

When they (derate) go down, it's 'better get off the road like right now because the power went out the window). That lowest biddeer 20 buck sensor can cost thousands of dollars in downtime. Remember this country has went from stockpiling to a 'just in time delivery system, thanks again to the government indirectly. You cannot afford a breakdown and these new engines are failure prone.

I sse the same scenario with a tractor. Imagine pulling say a winged disc in the middle of a huge field and the tractor looses a sensor and thats it. What do you do besides get on your cell phone and call the dealer and wait while the skeeters have their dinner on your epidermis (remember, no engine, no climate control either)....

I too believe it's a conspiracy between the gummit and the gummit to obsolete the small farmer. Who the hell can afford the price of admission in the first place. I can't. I'm glad this has become a hobby for a semi-retired old man to get him out of the house...lol

You probably aren't aware but the add on cost for a tier 4 road tractor (just emissions hardware, DEF injection, particulate filters and associated hardware and software is around (get a hold of you seat)..... $20,000.00 additional cost to the unit. I bet the associated cost for a Tier 4 final farm tractor with DEF and particulate mitigation is damn close to the same, it's all the same components remember?

An average equipped over the road twin screw tractor, nothing fancy, just an ordinary cookie cutter Freightliner Cascadia retails for around $130,000.00 (2015 model). Thats a lot of jack, jack. If you step up to say a long nose Western Star (we sell both btw), you are looking at around 150 grand.

Needless to say, most new truck purchases are fleet purchases today. The average OO cannot afford the payment or the 20% down. You'll find most independents are running 5-7 year old units, they cannot afford a new one, conversely, most don't want a new one, they already know what the grief level is.....

Our fleet trucks, we have around 90 right now are mostly Western Star Conventionals with double bunks built to OO specs with the older ones running Cat pre ACCERT engines and the new ones running ISX-C Cummins or DDEC 15 liters pulling Reitnauer curtain sided 48 foot aluminum trailers in various axle configurations from 10-2 spreads (on air) to 6 tight and 2 spaced axles in Michigan to Quads. Average unit price is around $210 grand and then you get to hire a driver....

The saving grace for us is we are basically a private fleet, hauling about 90% company generated material. We could never exist as a common carrier and run that level of equipment.

I have no issue being a part time employee, if I have an issue on the road, I call the tire account, or I call the main garage and they send an other tractor out to me on a hook and take the dead one either back to the shop or to an authorized dealer for repairs and I'm hourly so waiting isn't an issue either.

When you are farming, none of the above applies, especially the pay part.

No blue fuel caps for me.....

.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I bet you've seen our fleet trucks before Mlappin, we run out your way constantly. The older ones are cranberry red Star Conventionals with a white stripe pulling black curtainside trailers (Reitnauer) and the newer ones are white with a black stripe outlined in red pinstriping, long nose Stars, again pulling black curtainsided Reitnauers.

Polished wheels and tanks and big shiny chrome bumbers.... All large cars....lol


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Just returned from a trip out west and in Utah I noticed an inordinate amount of trucks broke down along roadsides. 
Maybe a good time to get intot the towing biz. Oh wait, the tow trucks have to be compliant, too. Lol

I swear this government bullshit is eventually cause a revolt. Between the EPA Regs coming on farmland near wetlands and the diesel regs, I don't really see a way forward. 
Maybe a revolt is what is wanted, then the Marshall law goes into effect and We can't have elections anymore.

My most emmissions complex truck is my '08 550 super duty. Outside of one sensor going bad ($1,000 rusted into DPF/cat converter), it's running well after 100,000 mi.
I'm really conflicted about replacing it. Do I keep it, wait for DPF to max out and drill it out? No emmissions inspection in my state. At least for the time being. What concerns me is I clean it out and then this liberal jackass governor we just got mandates diesel emmissions. 
Then what?


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> I too believe it's a conspiracy between the gummit and the gummit to obsolete the small farmer. Who the hell can afford the price of admission in the first place. I can't. I'm glad this has become a hobby for a semi-retired old man to get him out of the house...lol


I'm not big on conspiracy theory 'cause I've worked with too many government employees and politicians. The former only wants to get to retirement and the latter only cares about re-election. Re-election means greasing the noisiest squeaky wheels and the left has managed to get environmental causes to a global stage that few politicians can or will ignore. With very little actual, long-term climate data, the past is only a theory and the future is a theory laced with hyperbole to drive the sheeple into their pens. The same practice has been followed for ages and it's only much louder now with the advancements of information technology. Sadly, as it was in the past and it is now, the things that are missing are facts. My simple mind says, if you can't tell me what the weather is going to be tomorrow, then, how can you tell me what the weather is going to be in the next five or ten years?

Old iron will go by the wayside for other reasons: 1) Parts inventories are finite and will be depleted. 2) Used parts are, well, used parts. 3) The half-life of knowledge is much shorter today because of rapid technology advancements and increased complexity, fewer people will be able to work on them. 4) Precision farming significantly raises the bar in terms of yields and break-even cost, smaller farms will have problems competing. 5) Fewer people will want to work on farms, resulting in higher automation and complexity. 6) Etcetera, etcetera........just another disruption in the chain of human endeavors.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

JD3430 said:


> Just returned from a trip out west and in Utah I noticed an inordinate amount of trucks broke down along roadsides.
> Maybe a good time to get intot the towing biz. Oh wait, the tow trucks have to be compliant, too. Lol
> 
> I swear this government bullshit is eventually cause a revolt. Between the EPA Regs coming on farmland near wetlands and the diesel regs, I don't really see a way forward.
> ...


My latest (and greatest Rudolph Diesel) is pre tier 3 (thank the Lord for that). My 97, 7.3 Ford is in pristine shape and I pulled everything off , cat convertor, pcv, even the OEM intake is gone. I have a road draft tube and it actually smokes.... a little. The convertor went right away, the intake went to a L&N high flow with a full Gale Banks kit.

It's my last truck anyway, will be an estate item.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Anything post Tier 4, is failure prone. Not so much the mechanicals, but the emissions components. The mechanicals are still Suck, squeeze, bang and blow, it's the add on stuff that causes anxiety issues.

...and it's gonna get worse, lots worse, before it ever gets better, if it ever does (at least with conventional diesel fuel) that is......


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Maybe we're looking at CNG as our savior.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Unfortunately, Tier IV is here to stay. Engine manufacturers have way too much invested now for the EPA to undo what they've done. Not unless they wanna be pulling busted teeth out of their ass with a broken arm...


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

JD3430 said:


> Maybe we're looking at CNG as our savior.


Like I said early on, all the engine builders have NG engines on line and in production (used in the oil patch now). So you eliminate all the failure prone emissions components and exchange that for fueling issues. I think I'd take the fueling issues myself....

Something I failed to mention before HEAT. The new Tier 4 compliant engines all produce a lot more heat, heat from the catalyzation of exhaust and heat from the fact that engine manufacturers have increased the operating temperature parameters of the engines themselves because the hotter they run, the cleaner they burn the fuel.

That excess heat also shortens the life of components, both emissions and mechanical. Consequently, engine manufacturers have decreased warranties (periods of time) on Tier 4 engines. They know they ain't gonna last.

If you look closely at a new (2014 or later truck) and/or say a new JD tractor, you'll see the frontal air intake area has been substantially increased. In the case of trucks, the cabs have been elevated and the grills are massive.... to mitigate the impact of the excessive heat.

When I drive one and get out of the cab, I can physically feel the heat wafting out from under the cab. They make alot of heat. All that heat equates to fuel useage as well. Tier4 engines aren't efficient. Typical mileage on a Tier4 unit is low to mid 4's. Pre Tier4 engines were getting almost 7. I bet the same applies to a farm tractor.

They run extremely hot now. DDEC has went to ceramics in the overhead and Cummins has went to ceramics in the fuel system but not without issues. Ceramics work but the 'lowest bidder' syndrome strikes again. Cummins is in the midet of a huge recall to replace ceramic followers in the fuel pressurization system. When a ceramic component fails internally, it destroys the engine. Ceramics and internal combustion engines don't mix well. The ceramic shrapnel effectively 'machines' things like bearings and cylinder walls and not to the good either.

One of our units experienced a ceramic follower failure in Indiana. It was at a dealership for a month, getting a new engine. The unit had maybe 20,000 miles on it, was essentially new.

I see this stuff everyday....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> Maybe we're looking at CNG as our savior.


I got to thinking about that as well, not gonna be cheap for the average farmer to install a CNG fueling station at the home farm, what do you do to refuel then? Drive everything home to fill it up? I imagine a portable refueling station if one exists is quite salty. CNG is still not the answer unless of course you can afford to replace all your engines with that.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

One thing I don't want to portray and that is, some people actually have good luck and no issues with Tier4 final engines (other than terrible mileage/poor fuel consumption.

I get to see all the bad and ugly stuff at the shop but I do know some engines actually go the distance. I know of one guy who lives in Port Huron that has 14 trucks, all Freightshakers, all with DDEC engines, everyone is at least an EGR/particulate trap engine and some are DEF as well.

He ran one engine well over 1,000,000 miles without a major issue. It was so unusual that Detroit Diesel had our shop pull the engine and trans and ship it to Warren, Michigan. In return, DDEC gave him a new engine and transmission, paid the downtime and all the labor for removal and installation, so some go the distance, but many don't.

I get to see the 'don'ts'.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

The energy density of CNG isn't anywhere near as high as propane, either...
I don't see why they're aren't looking more at LPG (propane/butane) instead of CNG.

CNG basically requires you carrying the equivalent of oxygen cylinders on the vehicle
to store the extremely high pressure compressed natural gas... I went through all that
when I was thinking about taking a job with a large Metro bus shop. They had their own
natural gas "filling stations", basically sucking natural gas directly from the city
gas mains through a meter and then compressing it to several thousand PSI like an oxygen
cylinder, so that the tanks can hold enough to get ANY type of realistic range out of
the fuel supply, since it's low energy density means it takes a lot more CNG to do the
same work as a a more energy-dense fuel like diesel. It takes a lot more LPG (liquified
petroleum gas) to do the same work as it does diesel, but being a liquid that boils
off into a gas, you can put a LOT more into a tank than you can CNG which is simply
a compressed gas that remains gaseous, although at extremely high pressure.

LNG (liquified natural gas) isn't really an option due to the extremely specialized
equipment needed to keep it as a liquid, since it boils at about 290 degrees below zero,
and will rapidly build up to extremely high vapor pressures in a tank unless kept refrigerated.
LPG on the other hand can remain a liquid even at high temperatures with only modest pressures
due to its lower vapor pressure. Basically if the tank can handle 200 psi it's fine.

Even then, propane/butane (LPG) isn't a panacea... burns MUCH cleaner than diesel, though
not quite as clean as methane (CNG or LNG). Propane isn't particularly cheap, either, but the
handling problems and range problems aren't as bad as with CNG. Being pressurized,
a busted line or leaky fitting means fuel leaking into the air forming an explosive mixture-
and with LPG being a compressed liquid with a low boiling point well below zero, it will
refrigerate the lines/fittings as it flashes over to vapor. With CNG, you get a
leak, you're looking at extremely high pressure gas jetting out (think of an oxygen
cylinder with the valve snapped off!) As a pressurized liquid, it requires special
valves and hoses for fueling, as would CNG. The risk of frostbite from ruptured
hoses is, IMHO, preferable to the risk from the several thousand PSI pressures
required to handle and transfer CNG. CNG cannot be transferred via secondary tanks,
unlike LPG, no more than you can refill a high pressure oxygen cylinder from another
such cylinder-- connect the two together, you double the volume and halve the pressure
in both, and transfer at most 50% of the contents to the empty cylinder. To transfer the rest,
you have to have specialized compressor equipment capable of pumping the CNG over
at several thousand PSI into the receiving tank.

We used to run gas-powered cotton pickers built in the 60's when I was younger,
until we eventually switched to diesels built in the 70's and 80's. The gas pickers
were already getting very salty to run due to the cost of gas and the large amounts
of fuel they burned. The switch to diesels, with their greater efficiency and lower
fuel costs and less fuel consumed saved more than a little money. A friend of my
brother's was still running propane powered pickers in his family operation, and
they were going through a LOT of propane to do the same work we were doing in a day
with the diesel machines. They were running 3-4 older pickers from the early 70's on
propane and had a 300 gallon "yard tank" on a trailer axle pulled behind the pickup
to fuel the pickers daily, sometimes a couple times a day depending how late and how
hard they were running. I had an instructor in mechanic's school explain it, a bit
over simplified this way-- "If it takes 1 gallon of diesel to do a given amount of work,
it takes 2 gallons of gasoline, or 3 gallons of propane, or 4 gallons of natural gas..."
While the proportions are not correct, it DOES show the relation between declining energy
density per unit of fuel and the amount of fuel required to achieve a given amount of
work. Hydrogen is even worse... hydrogen, even in its liquid form, is EXTREMELY low-density;
While the energy content is high, the density is SO low that it takes huge amounts of
hydrogen to do the same amount of work you could get out of a gallon of diesel or a gallon
of gasoline, or even propane or methane (CNG). It's the same in the space program
with a lot of rocket manufacturers are looking back to liquid kerosene powered first stages
(Like SpaceX and Orbital Sciences Corporation's Falcon and Antares rockets) rather than
the more fuel-efficient hydrogen, which requires gigantic tanks (like the Space Shuttle did, or
the Delta IV rocket) does. For upper stages where ISP (fuel efficiency) is absolutely king,
LH2 (liquid hydrogen) remains the fuel of choice, but the difficulty of handling a fuel
that leaks through practically ANYTHING, liquifies AIR on contact with uninsulated piping
or tankage (creating an explosion hazard from the 21% of liquid air that is liquid oxygen and
will spontaneously burst into flame with contact with any petroleum product and becomes
explosive with just about anything flammable it contacts), and which has to be kept
refrigerated to -423 degrees below zero so it doesn't boil away vigorously (which is why
the shuttles and other rockets using hydrogen fueled stages have burn ponds or flares
to burn off excess hydrogen vapor so it doesn't explode).

That's why I had to laugh at the so-called "hydrogen economy" nonsense of a few years ago....

Later! OL JR


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ARD Farm said:


> One thing I don't want to portray and that is, some people actually have good luck and no issues with Tier4 final engines (other than terrible mileage/poor fuel consumption.
> 
> I get to see all the bad and ugly stuff at the shop but I do know some engines actually go the distance. I know of one guy who lives in Port Huron that has 14 trucks, all Freightshakers, all with DDEC engines, everyone is at least an EGR/particulate trap engine and some are DEF as well.
> 
> ...


Probably oversimplified, but my Ford diesel mechanic told me this about my 6.4L
He said the Diesel engine itself is actually pretty good. He said as you have repeated, the emmissions equipment is what fails. He said the longest lasting 6.4's are run pretty hard and get frequent scheduled filter changes. 
The ones seen idling at coffee shops or never used to pull anything more than a trailer hitch don't last.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I agree fully Luke.... Just the handling issues nothwithstanding make any alternate fuel just that.

What you aren't factoring in is the gummit and carbon credits and all that crap. Deisel is postive carbon so it's also a political plague.

It's like coal. We have to quit burning coal in electric plants because it's a pollution issue (actually it's not green and carbon positive just like diesel fuel) but we (American coal producers) have no issue selling our coal to China... I see it leaving here almost everyday, in ships bound for China....

At the Louisville Truck Show a couple years ago, Freightliner displayed their 'alternate fuel over the road tractor'. I chuckled at the large high pressure bottles on the back and thought to myself that if it was in a crash, all hell would break loose....literally.

You can only make an internal combustion engine, in this case a 4 stroke Rudolph Diesel engine run so clean and then the efficiency of the engine goes south along with reliability.

Right now, under current Tier4 mandate, engines in full compliance with functioning emissions systems are producing exhaust gases, CLEANER than the intake air, in essence, cleaning the atmosphere of pollutants as they run. That should be good enough but the gummit (and tree huggers) want even more stringent emissions standards, why, at some point in the near future, alternative fuels will be the only viable alternative.

I think it all sucks big time myself and I know this is a political statement but we (as the American people) need to wake up and elect people that have some understanding of the ramifications that 'being green' really cost.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

JD3430 said:


> Probably oversimplified, but my Ford diesel mechanic told me this about my 6.4L
> He said the Diesel engine itself is actually pretty good. He said as you have repeated, the emmissions equipment is what fails. He said the longest lasting 6.4's are run pretty hard and get frequent scheduled filter changes.
> The ones seen idling at coffee shops or never used to pull anything more than a trailer hitch don't last.


We have a company truck with a 6.4 and it gets used HARD. I borrowed it for square bales (I get certain prevlidges knowing thre owner of the company and him buying hay from me...lol). My 7.3 decided to quit suddenly, was the CPS, no big deal, a 10mm socket and a 15 buck hall effect sensor but I needed a truck to pull the gooseneck and it has a hitch in the bed so I grabbed it. I loaded 230 squares on my gooseneck pulled it out of the field and delivered them to him (the boss/owner) and I was working it hard.

It has 196,000 miles on it, the bed wheel wells are getting a bit rusty but it runs like a top so I guess if you flog 'em and they don't come apart right off, they are good to go.

My 7.3 needed the CPS sensor like I said. Nothing major and this is the second replacement. Takes about 10 minutes (if you don't drop the capscrew in the grass) which I did so my wife had to find that (after I pulled the truck back so she could look...lol

I have a spare in the glovebox now.

My 7.3 has no emissions related hardware whatsoever, all thet left when I bought it in 1997, but the engine is still electronically controlled, like just about every rengine is to some extent. That CPS sensor tells the ICM when the engine is in time with the injector cycle. No CPS, no injection, no run.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Always carry a spare serpentine belt, CPS sensor in the toolbox.....only replaced the CPS twice though in 400k....or was it three.....idk, 15 yrs is a long time


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeah I owned 6 different 7.3L fords. 
Good engine, but the automatic transmissions left a lot to be desired. The Ford Torqshift transmission is very good.


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## MScowman (May 18, 2011)

With all this talk about emissions, does anyone think that the fuel will ever return to it's former lubricating qualities?


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

MScowman said:


> With all this talk about emissions, does anyone think that the fuel will ever return to it's former lubricating qualities?


Not naturally.....Everyone installed Sulfur Recovery Units in the US refineries in the late 1990's to early 2000's and the government allowed the refiners to jack up the price of diesel in return. This caused two problems, fuel lubricity plunged to zip, and the price of diesel skyrocketed. Now they have to add lubricity additives to protect the fuel systems and we have to buy sulfur added in our fertilizer. Don't worry though, the little robots working your fields in the future won't be diesel powered......


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> Right now, under current Tier4 mandate, engines in full compliance with functioning emissions systems are producing exhaust gases, CLEANER than the intake air, in essence, cleaning the atmosphere of pollutants as they run. That should be good enough but the gummit (and tree huggers) want even more stringent emissions standards, why, at some point in the near future, alternative fuels will be the only viable alternative.


Silly human, it has nothing to do with clean air, it has everything to do with gaining more power/control and getting their hands deeper into our pockets.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Mike120 said:


> Not naturally.....Everyone installed Sulfur Recovery Units in the US refineries in the late 1990's to early 2000's and the government allowed the refiners to jack up the price of diesel in return. This caused two problems, fuel lubricity plunged to zip, and the price of diesel skyrocketed. Now they have to add lubricity additives to protect the fuel systems and we have to buy sulfur added in our fertilizer. Don't worry though, the little robots working your fields in the future won't be diesel powered......


Well, at least with electronic injection (HUEI comes to mind right off), ULSD is no issue except for injector pintles. The old school pumps with their micro honed mating surfaces that degrade from the lack of fuel lubricity are all in Pre-Tier3 engines anyway.

I use Caterpillar additive in my mechanically injected units. It's not the cheap (found in truckstops stuff), in fact you won't find it in a truckstop and it only takes a wee bit,1 ounce to 100 gallons but it seems (I say seems because I haven't had a pump issue) to work okay. I also use a biocide regularly (PowerService Bio Kleen). I've had the misery of algae growing in a bulk tank and what it does to a fuel system (expensive) so I use a biocide now.

Kind of reminds me of the tetra-ethyl lead removal and what happened to non hardened exhaut valve seats in older engines.... Lots of vitage Harley owners found out the hard way....

Now your friendly gummit is changing the mandate on ethanol pump gas, removing the 10% cap and replacing it with 15% alcohol. Problem is, politicians don't mow their own lawns, blow their own snow or trim their own trees.

No small engine built today (and that includes motorcycles) is compaqtible with alcohol over 10% by volume. Gonna be a pile of overheated. siezed small engines if this legislation dets passed.....

Gotta keep those gummit subsidized e-plats operating, no matter what. What a bunch of phooey perpetrated on the American taxpayers by inept politicians.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I've been buying 'canned gasoline' for my chainsaws and weed wackers for a while now. Canned gas has no alcohol content so storage isn't a worry and the engines run better.....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Isn't premium gas supposed to be ethanol free?


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

HUEI seems to have its share of issues. Working properly it no doubt delivers fuel, power and emissions efficiency. Unfortunately it is reported to have catastrophic extensive and expensive failures.

I was looking at a Caterpillar powered Kenworth with a HUEI injection system.

My research uncovered HUEI failures on a range of equipment including marine applications, bulldozers, excavators and trucks frightened me off the purchase. Failure without warning and requiring horrendously expensive repair was enough to put me off despite a very attractive pricing of the truck.

My inexpert opinion of the reason for the incidence of failure relates to cleanliness of the hydraulic drive of the pump. Everything I have been taught about high pressure hydraulics highlights the need for total cleanliness of the oil. Using the engine oil as the hydraulic oil supply, to my mind invites problems particularly in the very high pressures and therefore tight tolerances encountered with HUEI systems.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Isn't premium gas supposed to be ethanol free?


NOT necessarily HERE. I do buy ethanol free premium. Use it in all gas engines I own without license plates.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Coondle said:


> HUEI seems to have its share of issues. Working properly it no doubt delivers fuel, power and emissions efficiency. Unfortunately it is reported to have catastrophic extensive and expensive failures.
> I was looking at a Caterpillar powered Kenworth with a HUEI injection system.
> My research uncovered HUEI failures on a range of equipment including marine applications, bulldozers, excavators and trucks frightened me off the purchase. Failure without warning and requiring horrendously expensive repair was enough to put me off despite a very attractive pricing of the truck.
> 
> My inexpert opinion of the reason for the incidence of failure relates to cleanliness of the hydraulic drive of the pump. Everything I have been taught about high pressure hydraulics highlights the need for total cleanliness of the oil. Using the engine oil as the hydraulic oil supply, to my mind invites problems particularly in the very high pressures and therefore tight tolerances encountered with HUEI systems.


The engine you reference is an ACCERT engine. More issues with spacer plates than injection woes. They are prone to perforated head gaskets because the spacer plate expands and contracts at a different rate than the gasket itself. They all puke on number 6 because it;s the farthest from the water pump and runs the hottest, but it's an easy rebuild and all the ones I've seen in the shop are deck jobs, new spacer plate, gasket and button it up. No lower end issaues at all.

I've had no issues with my 7.3 Navistar powerstroke HEUI engine other than sensors and those are again. lowest bidder items. Everyone I get is 'Hencho Mexico' I just watch my oil changes (every 5K miles) and run the big oil filters with the best oil I can buy, in this case Rotella 5-40 synthetic.

On a HEUI, nominal oil pressure to energize the injectors is around 3500 psi. The feed rail pressure is much less, around 1000 psi. All the high pressure hydraulics are contained in the injector module which is why the cost so much. It's really a good system for one thats electronically controlled. I don't however, meet Tier 4 mandates.

If you can come across a Caterpillar 3406 NZ engine in anything buy that. It's easy to tell an N Z series engine from a normal 3406 by looking at the harmonic balancer. TH NZ series balances is twice as big as the normal 3406 and you can look on the door pillar too. The engine family will be listed there along with the final drive ratio and transmission type.

NZ engines have super strong cranks, larger mains and full skirted pistons. They can be reliably turned to over 1000 horses and 1800 pounds feet of torque so long as the transmission and rears are strong enough tol take the torque.

We have one left in the fleet, happens to be a day cab snub nosed Star with double steering boxes and a 156/18 Roadranger on 48 rears on Hendrickson air ride, double framed. I have my dibs on it already when it comes out of the fleer. I know of people who actually buy wrecked trucks with NZ's. pull the engine and drivelines and scrap the rest, thats how good the enfine is.

It's the modern day equivalent to a 1693TA.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Back in my tir axle days, I worked for a guy with a bunch of different mix & match trucks. Each guy got assigned a truck and that's what you driove 95% of the time. Mine was pretty dodgy. It was a Cummins, I think it was an M-11 330 Hp. Another guy had another triable and he could walk me up the big hill out of the quarry. Always thought he must have been a better jockey. Thought our trucks were almost the same. Then one day I got to use his truck and couldn't believe the difference. Here it had an N-14 red hat or red top. Thought that was a hell of a motor.
That's was in the big smoke days.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

ARD Farm said:


> I agree fully Luke.... Just the handling issues nothwithstanding make any alternate fuel just that.
> 
> What you aren't factoring in is the gummit and carbon credits and all that crap. Deisel is postive carbon so it's also a political plague.
> 
> ...


I hear ya but I don't see coal going away, nor diesel. Sure there'll be plenty of stink and
h3ll raising between now and then, but the simple fact that folks want electricity, and when you look
at the actual amount of electricity generated by coal, versus everything else (often put together), well,
h3ll, it's gotta come from somewhere! Nobody wants nukes, and you can't get it all from windmills and
solar and sh!t like that unless you want to build about 5X to 10X the actual generating capacity required
to account for low/no wind conditions, cloudy/poor sun conditions, etc. Then you have to figure out
how to store the energy for when demand exceeds supply, and that's the REALLY expensive part--
I've seen proposals for everything from giant flywheels running on magnetic frictionless bearings operating
in a vacuum inside a hard casing, to compressed air tanks and motors to generate power
when needed, to electrolyzers breaking down water into hydrogen and oxygen gas that's then
run through fuel cells to produce electricity later when needed, you name it. All of it
is super expensive. When you look at the mass fractions of crude oil and products
coming out of refineries, most of it is naturally in the heavy fuel oil/diesel/kerosene
range, that's why modern refineries crack a lot of it to keep up with the demand for gasoline.
That's a process that takes energy as well, though. Heck the other side of the equation is
polymerizing natural gas/propane with additional hydrogen to make heavier molecules,
but that's too energy intensive to produce cost-effective motor fuels-- most of that goes
for petrochemicals and plastics production anyway. As for coal burners, well, folks
don't want nukes, and there's not enough natural gas and petroleum gases to completely
replace coal anyway. When you look at known reserves, coal accounts for the VAST majority
of hydrocarbon reserves... don't remember the exact figures, but there's enough known coal reserves
for 300 years of use at current levels, vs maybe 50 years worth of known oil and gas reserves
at current use levels. We're just gonna have to figure out a better way to use coal is all...
Not like we don't have the technology-- coal gassification and similar technologies have existed a
long time; heck the Nazi's figured out how to make synthetic gasoline from coal way back in WWII
since we and the Russians cut off their supplies. It's just that its expensive and
that's the real holdback on it right now.

I agree that diesel technology is probably at about its peak for cleanliness and efficiency. Lots of things
are in fact... They ever get gas turbine technology figured out in an affordable/clean way,
it'll probably supplant IC engines someday... course that's been an ongoing dream for 50 years
at least, anyway. Going to constant load/speed engines with electrical power transmission
(electric drive motors) like the railroads did might improve things; how much, I don't know.
The cost will be high though, just like with hybrids. Electric simply doesn't have
the energy density by itself, and has its own set of problems. Lithium and heavy metals
is looking to make Russia, China, the Far East, and parts of South America (like Bolivia) the
new Saudi Arabia for the coming century.... whether that's a good thing or not, well...
Maybe new technology in battery chemistry and higher efficiency storage and electric
conversion/storage equipment will improve the situation, but that's not a given (no
more than nuclear fusion power is at this point-- another 50 year old dream that's
always been "right around the corner" but we're no closer to today than we were then).

The biggest problem for road-mobile systems is power storage/density. Diesel fuel (and other
hydrocarbon fuels) are very energy dense-- they're dense liquids containing large amounts of energy
per gallon. NONE of the alternatives (with the moderate exception of LP gas (propane)
has this important trait. When you look at the amount of fuel that can be produced
from a gallon of crude oil, and the fact most of that will come in the form of liquid
hydrocarbons in the heavy fuel oil/diesel/kerosene/gasoline weight liquid fuels, well,
we're just gonna have to figure out a better way to use them. Maybe getting away from
IC engines and going to external combustion engines with some sort of regenerative steam
loop power would work-- making it mobile is the problem. All that extra equipment
comes right off the weight of the cargo one can haul and creates that much more to fix,
plus, like the fallacy of "just switching everyone to electric (battery) powered cars will solve
all the pollution and energy problems" the answer to that is "BULLSH!T" because
energy is energy-- if it takes "X" amount of energy to move your car and @ss to work
every morning from the burb's to your job, it doesn't matter whether you get that energy
from burning the liquid fuel directly in an IC engine to move the car, or you get it from
a battery-- only problem is, that battery has to be RECHARGED, which means that if
EVERYBODY is running an electric car, guess what-- suddenly every drop of power that was
coming from gasoline now has to come from the electric grid! Suddenly we need 3X or more
the current generating and transmission capacity of the current electric grid, because
basically what's happening is all that energy that was coming from gasoline and diesel
being burned in auto "power plants" under the hoods is now having to come from
power plants generating electricity and distributing it over the grid to everybody's
plugged in Prius's overnight... And that's not counting the effect of transmission losses and
heat losses and such-- every time energy is converted from one form to another, there is
conversion losses-- NO process is 100% efficient. The more often the energy is converted
from one form to another, the more the losses add up. That's the fundamental killer for
the windmill and solar crowd... not only do you have to have excess generating capacity to
make extra power when conditions are good for when conditions are bad, but you have to
then transform that electricity into a storable form containing energy-- crack water into hydrogen,
store it as high pressure compressed gas, store it in gigantic magnetic flywheels, huge battery banks,
molten salt, you name it. But then it has to be transformed BACK into electricity when
needed, and you lose some transforming it to storable energy, then lose more transforming it back
to electricity, then lose some transmitting it over the grid, lose more in transformers,
etc. etc. etc.

It CAN be done-- heck ANYTHING can be done if you throw enough money at it...
Look at fracking of gas and oil wells to produce formations that were unprofitable to
produce decades ago-- that technology was developed in the 40's, but it wasn't
cost-efficient to do until recently. With the oil prices tumbling, it's not cost efficient
to do now either! Same thing with tar sands and stuff like that...

Thing is, folks are going to be a LOT poorer in the future than they have been in the past.
Cheap energy and cheap ways of using it are going away, and the stupid mandates hastening and
worsening the process don't help. Look what the costs of equipment and repairs are
doing to the trucking industry now. It's coming to the farms next... My BIL's son in law
works for his large "family farm" running 5,000 acres or so up in Indiana, and
they're getting the cold shoulder from Deere-- used to trade 2 combines, rent another combine, and
trade 5 BIG tractors every year on their operation-- only Deere doesn't want to deal-- they
don't want them back-- no market for them and the BIGGER guy they're selling to is doing the same
thing, and they want to keep HIM happy, so they're kinda left in the cold. When having 5,000
acres isn't big enough anymore, something's wrong! I agree with the guys that say
the little guy is going to be squeezed out entirely-- in the end you're gonna have the Amish
and a handful of mega-farms running basically everything in the country, and probably
owned outright by the Deeres, CNH's, Poets, ADM's, Cargills, Monsanto's, Pilgrim's Pride, etc.
of the world... that's what it'll take to have the leverage and cost efficiency to
make it in the market. Then they'll charge whatever they want, and folks'll have no choice but
to pay it, or do without. Imagine EVERYTHING pretty much "chickenized" (like the hog
and chicken industries already are!)

I don't know exactly where it's all going to end up, but I know one thing, it's not
going to be pretty... and it's going to be a lot different than what most folks are
used to or want to contemplate...

Later! OL JR


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Germany went to clean energy virtually eliminating fossil fuels and the average cost to the consumer tripled. 
Our nuclear energy system is pathetic.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

ARD Farm said:


> The engine you reference is an ACCERT engine. More issues with spacer plates than injection woes.


The Kenny was a 28 foot flat top of around 350 hp with a 7 litre engine.

The issues I found, involved failure of the pump bearings which dumped filings into the fuel and blocked the injectors. Pump only cost in 2012 was US $12K. And of course add injectors, downtime, and removal replacement costs plus freight and possibly not much change from Aus $30K which since I am risk averse, was too high for me.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> I don't know exactly where it's all going to end up, but I know one thing, it's not
> going to be pretty... and it's going to be a lot different than what most folks are
> used to or want to contemplate...


Yep, couple the energy and food trends with the demographics of everyone moving into cities where dependency is maximized, self-sufficiency is zip, and you've got the sheeple in nice little pens. Now you add politicians (or reality show stars) with simple, sound-bite solutions that the sheeple want to hear, and....."it's not going to be pretty" is probably an understatement.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

There has been a quantum change in battery technology with Tesla Motors now making 7Kw and 10Kw home packages and a 100Kw Industrial unit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Tesla*_Powerwall

www.wired.com/2015/05/get-*tesla*-home-battery-let-physics-explain/


 

Although the present cost for these units was calculated at 30 cents per Kw hour as opposed to average mains supply in the US of 12.5 cents, there is a comment that the units make sense in Australia amongst other examples.

The impact for power generation companies and transmission companies may be significant, particularly in Australia, because many homes now already generate their own solar power, contributing excess to the grid, the transmission requirements are already substantially reduced. The electricity is generated near where it is used and now with a similarly decentralised battery backup, there is greater moderation of the peaks and troughs in demand, and this further reduces peak generation and peak transmission demand. There is enormous overbuilding of generation/distribution capacity to simply meet peak demand. That overbuilding may be a thing of the past, thus reducing waste of capital resources.

The potential impact on power companies is so significant that the Credit Rating Agencies downgraded the rating of Australia's largest power generation company following Tesla's Powerwall launch.

To give an actual example, I installed a 3Kw solar power system on my house several years ago. It supplies all electricity used by me in the day and exports excess to the grid. The grid supplies electricity used when no sun. I have not received a power bill since th unit was installed and I am now about $2,000.00 in credit. Break-even on the system will be slightly over 3 years. With another 4 years of the present contract to run, I should get 120% return on investment over 7 years; better than bank interest.

Installing a larger system coupled with a battery storage system and computer management would charge a battery and allow feedback into the grid at the present 3kw rate (less own use) during sunlight. At night the battery could supply my home and still feed into the grid.

Locally peak electricity demand (due to air-conditioners) is on the hottest days and in the hottest part of the day which coincides with peak solar generation, both as to timing and locality. We do not have the severe winters of NA so do not have the same level of demand for heating when solar generation is at its lowest.

North of my place there is a 10 MW solar station. In 2013 the cost of PhotoVoltaic (PV) or solar power in Australia was half the cost of conventional power generation. The cost of PV cells is reducing and efficiency increasing, so closing the present cost gap in the US electricity market.

Change is on the way in the automotive market.

In the automotive market the Tesla car is rather amazing. The top of the line model has a constant 55mph range of over 300 miles on a full charge and an acceleration of 0-60 mph (with optional boost in power) of 2.8 seconds and top speed of 155 mph. The instant torque of the electric motors is the reason for the standing start performance, however acceleration from one speed to another (rolling start) is apparently not so impressive.

Not the answer to heavy haulage but very much improved over earlier electric cars.

A very long Wikipedia write up is at:

https://en. *wikipedia*.org/*wiki*/*Tesla*_*Model*_*S*


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Coondle said:


> There has been a quantum change in battery technology with Tesla Motors now making 7Kw and 10Kw home packages and a 100Kw Industrial unit.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Tesla*_Powerwall
> 
> ...


Tesla is impressive... til the batteries take a dump and it costs you $40 grand to replace them...

Do a search for that-- I'm sure it'll turn up...

Like I said, not saying it CAN'T be done, just that it's got a ways to go to get there... (for a lot of places anyway).

They've made some pretty amazing strides in PV's, and if the "soft film" or better yet "paint on" type PV's ever come to fruition, it'll probably be big-time game changers... Til then... well...

Later! OL JR


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

luke strawwalker said:


> Tesla is impressive... til the batteries take a dump and it costs you $40 grand to replace them...
> 
> Do a search for that-- I'm sure it'll turn up...


Did a search. Batteries and driveline have a warranty for 8 years infinite mileage, surely they mean unlimited mileage.

Replacement after that 8 years has expired is US$10K for 60kw and US$12K for 85 KW battery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Tesla*_*Model*_*S*

Service costs are minimal. Windscreen washer, brake fluid and pads (but with regenerative braking not many pads are needed), suspension items, tyres and battery electrolyte. Software is upgraded over the internet as is any servicing diagnosis.

No doubt still a sunrise technology, in which I opine will see enormous strides very rapidly.

Tesla, the man made the breakthrough in Li ion batteries that permit the staggering performance of the Tesla sedans. The issue he overcame is the amount of drawdown of power necessary to get 600+ hp out of the car's battery.

"Tis easy to find fault with something unfamiliar, like a full electric car. Ford has been in the internal combustion engine business for a few years now, yet when I read on HT of the experiences some are having with their Powerstoke or as some put it "Powerjoke" the expectations of perfection of Tesla cars is a little OTT.

Being a sunrise technology then the spotlight is no doubt on them and any glitches will feature prominently .......c'est la vie.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

When I built my house, it was oriented and setup for conversion to solar power. At that time, the payback on the cost of installation was over 10 years. I got a proposal last year and it was still over 10 years. At my age, I may not have 10 years left, so either the price of electricity will have to skyrocket or the installation cost will really have to come down for me to move on it. On the other hand, if I figure in the cost of propane (which keeps going up), it looks better. Then I get screwed by the cost of changing out the gas appliances. Hope springs eternal.....


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Here, propane is 88 cents a gallon. I just loaded up 3 tanks. We normally with biofuel (corn/processed wood pellets). This year it's propane, no brainer. Dryer gas is 79 cents btw.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Coondle said:


> Did a search. Batteries and driveline have a warranty for 8 years infinite mileage, surely they mean unlimited mileage.
> 
> Replacement after that 8 years has expired is US$10K for 60kw and US$12K for 85 KW battery.
> 
> ...


Read an article awhile back on folks with Teslas a year or two old, went on trips and IIRC some didn't leave them on charge, came back and found that they wouldn't take a charge, PERIOD. Had them towed to the Tesla shop, "sorry, magic smoke came out of the battery-- that'll be $20 grand, not covered by warranty thank you very much!"
IIRC another guy DID leave his on charge, and came back after a couple months overseas and the same thing... no workee, won't take a charge no matter what. Towed to Tesla, same story, different day... $20 grand, not covered by warranty...

Anyway, regardless of it being "sunrise technology" or whatever, if they don't stand behind the product and you end up with a boat anchor that's going to take $20 grand to get going again,
might as well have the Powerjoke... LOL

Not saying they'll never figure it out, but just saying "buyer beware", which is always good advice IMHO...

Full electrics have a lot of advantages, true... but long distance driving and especially long distance cargo hauling aren't
one of them... unless you can convince the gubmint to install catenary power lines over every interstate across the continent,
I wouldn't look for electric big rigs any time soon... and even for the "powerful sedans", if you're driving more than 60 miles in a day,
you better have a hybrid that you can pump gas into... electrics just can't cut it.

Maybe someday, but not right now...

Best of luck! OL JR


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> I wouldn't look for electric big rigs any time soon... and even for the "powerful sedans", if you're driving more than 60 miles in a day,
> you better have a hybrid that you can pump gas into... electrics just can't cut it.


The issue, as I see it, is the miniaturization of the components, the purity they can achieve with the materials they use, and the complexity of the resulting system. In the old analogue days, tracing a circuit with a VOM was easy and you could identify and replace the offending component. Today, with 1,900,000,000 transistors on a single Duo-core + GPU Core i7 processor, you have to have very specialized equipment to even start. Windows 7 has ~ 40 million lines of code and a new high-end car is approaching 1 billion. The complexity is huge. The miniaturization/purity is even more problematical. Heat dissipation is an issue and as you get down to the atomic level the mathematics aren't even fully understood. If it breaks, throw it away.....It probably can't be fixed.

I suspect, we're just going to have to evolve our expectations around what reliability actually means.....Analogue circuits and simple mechanical things are tomorrow's horse and buggy.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> The issue, as I see it, is the miniaturization of the components, the purity they can achieve with the materials they use, and the complexity of the resulting system. In the old analogue days, tracing a circuit with a VOM was easy and you could identify and replace the offending component. Today, with 1,900,000,000 transistors on a single Duo-core + GPU Core i7 processor, you have to have very specialized equipment to even start. Windows 7 has ~ 40 million lines of code and a new high-end car is approaching 1 billion. The complexity is huge. The miniaturization/purity is even more problematical. Heat dissipation is an issue and as you get down to the atomic level the mathematics aren't even fully understood. If it breaks, throw it away.....It probably can't be fixed.
> 
> I suspect, we're just going to have to evolve our expectations around what reliability actually means.....Analogue circuits and simple mechanical things are tomorrow's horse and buggy.


As Mr. Scott said in Star Trek III-- "The more they overmake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."

I'll keep my old stuff... let these goofy kids screw around with lines of code and microprocessors... I'll take mechanical control and analog ANY day of the week for ANYTHING that HAS to get done, and done on time...

JMHO... OL JR


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

luke strawwalker said:


> As Mr. Scott said in Star Trek III-- "The more they overmake the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..."I'll keep my old stuff... let these goofy kids screw around with lines of code and microprocessors... I'll take mechanical control and analog ANY day of the week for ANYTHING that HAS to get done, and done on time...JMHO... OL JR


I tend to agree. My 08 Superduty is bad enough with a DPF. My 2011 tractors feel like almost new and have no pollution BS on them. 
And honestly, I can't afford anything new. Lol


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

deadmoose said:


> NOT necessarily HERE. I do buy ethanol free premium. Use it in all gas engines I own without license plates.


Same here. Just bought some Ethanol free 93 octane the other day, $2.95/gallon, it's amazing at the difference in the smell vs. the 10% ethanol crap, smells like gas use to smell, not that I go around sniffing gas but you tell a difference just pumping it.


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