# I'm wonder if horse market would except a 2x3 large square bale?



## Anthony (Oct 15, 2010)

I see Kuhn is introducing a LSB 870 2x3 (28"x31.5" bale 2-10 feet long) large square baler offers a lot of options and features at an affordable price. It doesn't look as though it short any features. This should be a nice size and weight to handle with a skid loader. I believe New Holland use to offer that size back in the 1980's D1000. This is sure a better option over a used baler without warranty. I'm wondering if the horse market would except this size bale?


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Not the horse market I am familiar with. They don't have the skid loader to run it around with, are not set up storage wise to move them about. Most of the folks I know you walk into hay storage, all sorts of nooks and crannies. No skid steer access. Not sure how a section of that bale would compare to a couple of 14 x 18 sections. Big breeding or racing barns may be different but I don't deal with them.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Anthony said:


> I see Kuhn is introducing a LSB 870 2x3 (28"x31.5" bale 2-10 feet long) large square baler offers a lot of options and features at an affordable price. It doesn't look as though it short any features. This should be a nice size and weight to handle with a skid loader. I believe New Holland use to offer that size back in the 1980's D1000. This is sure a better option over a used baler without warranty. I'm wondering if the horse market would except this size bale?


New Holland offers a 2x3 now. I'd rather buy a NH then a Kuhn. I'm sure either are $80k for a 2x3. Most Skid Steers can handle one 3x3 easily also. However most people don't even have a skid steer. They have a 35 hp loader tractor. Now that is who the 2x3 bales would be for.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

I am in horse country and they wanted only small bales until the drought then they would take anything. Saw a lot of Timothy coming from the North. 4x4x8, 3x3x8, round ... just so it was hay. The good thing was a lot of the small bales were twine and not wire and they got use to that. Wire bailers are being reduced in numbers around here. Twine has become rodent resistant and most eliminates stack the bales on it side. The side accumulators rodents cutting the twine.

To answer your question: It is my SWAG that if they complain about the larger ... they might like that. 10' and little too much. 2x3x8 maybe.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

My new neighbor for her horses buys 4x4x8 Alfalfa from a hay broker 21 miles from here. She is from Indiana and I ain't figure her out yet. She ain't even neighborly until she gets her truck stuck and needs me to pull her out.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Anthony said:


> I see Kuhn is introducing a LSB 870 2x3 (28"x31.5" bale 2-10 feet long) large square baler offers a lot of options and features at an affordable price. It doesn't look as though it short any features. This should be a nice size and weight to handle with a skid loader. I believe New Holland use to offer that size back in the 1980's D1000. This is sure a better option over a used baler without warranty. I'm wondering if the horse market would except this size bale?


If your market is the horse market, stay away from any & all high density balers only because you won't sell high density baled hay to knowledgeable horse people. They don't even like 3 strings bales and this baler is a 4 stringer. Hayman1 has given you one good answer. Horse people DON'T like sticky hay, they like their hay to flow like a green river. Commercial stable may be a little more forgiving in terms of size/weight as they may have equipment to handle. Look at Krone multi baler, which I thought was a good idea, was not a success as the bales are still around 100lbs each. In terms of quality nothing beats the small baler, especially the inline ones. Also if you run into a wad of higher moisture hay you'll only loose 1 small bale rather than a good chunk of a big one. I'd get myself a Heston/MF 1840 and a used Bale Baron (Not the Bale Bandit as it used a metal strip) to handle the big bunches. You'll find a lot more horse people receptive to this than any big bale. Things may change in the future if small bales aren't available


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Trillium Farm said:


> If your market is the horse market, stay away from any & all high density balers only because you won't sell high density baled hay to knowledgeable horse people. They don't even like 3 strings bales and this baler is a 4 stringer. Hayman1 has given you one good answer. Horse people DON'T like sticky hay, they like their hay to flow like a green river. Commercial stable may be a little more forgiving in terms of size/weight as they may have equipment to handle. Look at Krone multi baler, which I thought was a good idea, was not a success as the bales are still around 100lbs each. In terms of quality nothing beats the small baler, especially the inline ones. Also if you run into a wad of higher moisture hay you'll only loose 1 small bale rather than a good chunk of a big one. I'd get myself a Heston/MF 1840 and a used Bale Baron (Not the Bale Bandit as it used a metal strip) to handle the big bunches. You'll find a lot more horse people receptive to this than any big bale. Things may change in the future if small bales aren't available


It all depends on the local market. When you say HD baled hay are you referring to all big squares or just the newer truly HD big square balers? I sell plenty of 3x3 bales to knowledgeable horse owners. I'm intrigued by the 2x3 bale just because the smaller the bales get the more per ton you can sell them for. But then I would have more bales to get out of the field. I'll probably just stay with the 3x3s. I'm also not sure what you mean by sticky hay? Do you mean horse owners don't like hay that flakes and like the bales to be loose so they fall apart when opening them? If so then that is sure the opposite then in this area.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

gradyjohn said:


> I am in horse country and they wanted only small bales until the drought then they would take anything. Saw a lot of Timothy coming from the North. 4x4x8, 3x3x8, round ... just so it was hay. The good thing was a lot of the small bales were twine and not wire and they got use to that. Wire bailers are being reduced in numbers around here. Twine has become rodent resistant and most eliminates stack the bales on it side. The side accumulators rodents cutting the twine.
> 
> To answer your question: It is my SWAG that if they complain about the larger ... they might like that. 10' and little too much. 2x3x8 maybe.


I had some guys from your area a few years ago buy a couple semi loads of small square alfalfa bales. They made fun of me for using twine and not wire. I just kept quiet as I didn't care. I don't think a dealer has sold a wire tie baler here for 35 years. Your area seems to be a location that sure likes the wire. It's all in the location what people want. Wire bales for your area. 3 twine small squares for CA and AZ. Twine small squares and a considerable amount of people like 3x3 bales here. Dairies and feedlots like the 4x4s but like 3x4s more lately.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I've never seen a wire tie baler in eastern Canada - even the old reaper binders from the 1800's in the rock piles out back of our place are twine tie.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Anthony said:


> I see Kuhn is introducing a LSB 870 2x3 (28"x31.5" bale 2-10 feet long) large square baler offers a lot of options and features at an affordable price. It doesn't look as though it short any features. This should be a nice size and weight to handle with a skid loader. I believe New Holland use to offer that size back in the 1980's D1000. This is sure a better option over a used baler without warranty. I'm wondering if the horse market would except this size bale?


 Probably many people will want to know what the horsepower requirements are and the price of it


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Teslan said:


> I had some guys from your area a few years ago buy a couple semi loads of small square alfalfa bales. They made fun of me for using twine and not wire. I just kept quiet as I didn't care. I don't think a dealer has sold a wire tie baler here for 35 years. Your area seems to be a location that sure likes the wire. It's all in the location what people want. Wire bales for your area. 3 twine small squares for CA and AZ. Twine small squares and a considerable amount of people like 3x3 bales here. Dairies and feedlots like the 4x4s but like 3x4s more lately.


We don't used wire around here either! I think I've seen only 1 wired bale in my whole life, but never a baler.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Teslan said:


> It all depends on the local market. When you say HD baled hay are you referring to all big squares or just the newer truly HD big square balers? I sell plenty of 3x3 bales to knowledgeable horse owners. I'm intrigued by the 2x3 bale just because the smaller the bales get the more per ton you can sell them for. But then I would have more bales to get out of the field. I'll probably just stay with the 3x3s. I'm also not sure what you mean by sticky hay? Do you mean horse owners don't like hay that flakes and like the bales to be loose so they fall apart when opening them? If so then that is sure the opposite then in this area.


 I agree Teslan, when I speak of HD Balers I mean the new ones where a bullet wouldn't go through 

When I speak of sticky bales I mean the ones where the flakes stick to each other, you can hear the sound... kreek/swosh as you ply them out. Bales need to breath and these HD make it impossible. I think for the needs of horse people small bales are more suitable, but with small-baler knowledge growing dim the switch to a big baler will be inevitable, yet I still think that there will always be a market for small squares. I don't know for a fact, but a move to a big baler results in a great increase in costs.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Trillium Farm said:


> I agree Teslan, when I speak of HD Balers I mean the new ones where a bullet wouldn't go through
> When I speak of sticky bales I mean the ones where the flakes stick to each other, you can hear the sound... kreek/swosh as you ply them out. Bales need to breath and these HD make it impossible. I think for the needs of horse people small bales are more suitable, but with small-baler knowledge growing dim the switch to a big baler will be inevitable, yet I still think that there will always be a market for small squares. I don't know for a fact, but a move to a big baler results in a great increase in costs.


i agree about the HD balers and I don't particularly see a point to them. You can max out a semi trailers weight limits with just a standard big square load. And man if you have any moisture I think they would go bad quick. I agree small squares will always have a market. I've noticed though that once horse hay buyers reach 45 or 50 years of age they start wanting to switch to big squares as they just don't like handling the small squares by hand anymore. I had more then one hay buyer thank me for switching to 3x3s as they discovered it was much easier on them physically.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Trillium Farm said:


> We don't used wire around here either! I think I've seen only 1 wired bale in my whole life, but never a baler.


Picked up wire bales in the mid 50s when I was a kid on the farm in Stafford Va. Got enough experience to know I never want to go back and get more experience. Wire hanging everywhere in the barn. In fact, there is a noticeable difference of how I feel today at 68 after three days of pitching 50-55# bales vs 42-45# bales.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Trillium Farm said:


> We don't used wire around here either! I think I've seen only 1 wired bale in my whole life, but never a baler.


Gotta second this, remember my dad buying some hay or straw with wire, what a PIA that was, cut into your fingers easier than twine.  The positive had enough wire around for years to 'fix' stuff (and you can fix a lot with baling wire by golly).

Larry


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Here you could probably sell a few to horse people, I have no problems selling round bales to horse folks.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

Sell both 4x5 round bales and small squares to my horse customers any bigger rounds and they are hard to get out of the pick-up by hand.Even the outfits with equipment to handle big bales still prefer Small squares. It is always a moving target as to what they want. I have decided to bale all my fields as early as possible and let them pick out what they want. If they don't like what I have they can try elsewhere


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

I remember Dad would buy some wire tied bales once in a while. He always saved the wire and could repair just about anything with it!


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

The hd balers have a place I'm useing 3 hdp krone 1290 high speed. Any thing under 14% you can't tell it's just heaver . I do it for this reason 1850 lbs take less room in hay barns. Less hay to pick up in the field.less twine to buy. 35 bales is a full load on a truck 6 blocks and I'm done. I have over 400 truck loads a year it adds up for me


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Whether or not a small big square will sell well will depend entirely on your customers. We have a 2x3 D1000 and nobody ever complains about that size. Personally, I much prefer to hand feed a 2x3 vs 3x3.

Next subject. The NH D1000 bale is actual 24" tall by 36" wide bale. The current NH Big Baler 230 is an actual 18.5" tall by 35  31" wide bale. Not coincidence I think that is exactly half the height of a 3x3 bale and the same width. I did some digging this winter and found that this bale size has been available in Euroland for many years. Look up the NH models BB920 and BB9040. They are the same bale size as the Big Baler 230 but were never sold in NA. There are other companies that made balers of the sale size as well. Heston made a two very different models both labeled 4600 but one of them was a midsize big square, looks very close to a 24 x 36 bale.

Edited to correct misinformation.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Gearclash said:


> Whether or not a small big square will sell well will depend entirely on your customers. We have a 2x3 D1000 and nobody ever complains about that size. Personally, I much prefer to hand feed a 2x3 vs 3x3.
> 
> Next subject. The NH D1000 bale is actual 24" tall by 36" wide bale. The current NH Big Baler 230 is an actual 18.5" tall by 35" wide bale. Not coincidence I think that is exactly half the height of a 3x3 bale and the same width. I did some digging this winter and found that this bale size has been available in Euroland for many years. Look up the NH models BB920 and BB9040. They are the same bale size as the Big Baler 230 but were never sold in NA. There are other companies that made balers of the sale size as well. Heston made a two very different models both labeled 4600 but one of them was a midsize big square, looks very close to a 24 x 36 bale.


the NH website says for the bb230 the measurements are 27.6 height and 31.5 width.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Teslan said:


> the NH website says for the bb230 the measurements are 27.6 height and 31.5 width.


Yea I think your right on that. After posting I began to think I was in error. I'm pretty sure the BB920 and 9040 are an 18.5 tall bale though. In any case they were a small big square that was available for many years but only in Europe.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Gearclash said:


> Yea I think your right on that. After posting I began to think I was in error. I'm pretty sure the BB920 and 9040 are an 18.5 tall bale though. In any case they were a small big square that was available for many years but only in Europe.


it could be on those other ones. I had just looked at the NH site this morning when the OP mentioned the Kuhn 2x3. It appears the Kuhn and NH are about the same size bales. I wonder if they sell well enough if we will see a Heston or Krone 2x3. My Massey Dealer says there is talk of new design Heston big balers due out in a couple years.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Thought about it but the HP requirements and price were so similar to a 3x3. Might as well stick with a more established at least in my area platform


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

Run a claas 2100. Bale size is 27.5 x 31.5. We keep density down and shoot for a 600# 1st cutting bale and 700# 2nd-3rd cutting bales. Will sell over 1000 bales to Amish horse owners this year. Phasing out our small bale business. Will bale all 450 acres in rounds and big squares within a couple of years. 95% of it is sold to horse owners. We have had great success switching customers from small bales to big squares.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

OhioHay said:


> Run a claas 2100. Bale size is 27.5 x 31.5. We keep density down and shoot for a 600# 1st cutting bale and 700# 2nd-3rd cutting bales. Will sell over 1000 bales to Amish horse owners this year. Phasing out our small bale business. Will bale all 450 acres in rounds and big squares within a couple of years. 95% of it is sold to horse owners. We have had great success switching customers from small bales to big squares.


I forgot about the Claas 27.5x31.5 baler. I think I would almost look at one of those over a NH and especially a Kuhn. That is if there is a good dealer for it. I don't mean for my comments about choosing a NH or Claas over Kuhn to mean I don't like Kuhn. I do. Their other hay equipment is excellent. Like I sure wish I had bought a Kuhn tedder rather then a NH tedder. I just don't think their big square balers are as good yet. I say yet because they may be and may be in the future.

So that's 3 companies doing a 2x3 baler. Maybe the other 3 companies making big squares will go into that market. I bet they are watching to see how the sales on these 2x3s are. It might take some time just like it took time for the 3x3 and 3x4 balers to make inroads. Maybe in a few years when I'm in the market for a new baler I'll consider one.


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## Anthony (Oct 15, 2010)

I did some checking the Kuhn 870 is is very resionably priced for a new large square baler. It's lot less expensive than their Kuhn 890 3x3. New Holland 230 and 330 are nearly the same price (expensive). Claas 2100 doesn't have a pre-chamber . I like this size bale for handling


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Anthony said:


> I did some checking the Kuhn 870 is is very resionably priced for a new large square baler. It's lot less expensive than their Kuhn 890 3x3. New Holland 230 and 330 are nearly the same price (expensive). Claas 2100 doesn't have a pre-chamber . I like this size bale for handling


How much is Kuhn asking for either? I'm curious. I've heard Hesston/MF is about $100,000 for a barebones 3x3 now.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

Teslan said:


> I had some guys from your area a few years ago buy a couple semi loads of small square alfalfa bales. They made fun of me for using twine and not wire. I just kept quiet as I didn't care. I don't think a dealer has sold a wire tie baler here for 35 years. Your area seems to be a location that sure likes the wire. It's all in the location what people want. Wire bales for your area. 3 twine small squares for CA and AZ. Twine small squares and a considerable amount of people like 3x3 bales here. Dairies and feedlots like the 4x4s but like 3x4s more lately.


Years ago when we had a rodent problem wire was worth its weight in gold. Now I am finding the full boxes to be a little heavier. Only JD and NH make them now. Much improvement has been made to twine and twine balers.


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## Maxzillian (Sep 11, 2014)

Teslan said:


> So that's 3 companies doing a 2x3 baler. Maybe the other 3 companies making big squares will go into that market. I bet they are watching to see how the sales on these 2x3s are. It might take some time just like it took time for the 3x3 and 3x4 balers to make inroads. Maybe in a few years when I'm in the market for a new baler I'll consider one.


AGCO has a 2x3 and 2x4 baler, but only the 2x4 was ever offered in North America and it was only attempted for a few years; aiming for the export market as a 2x4 could fill a container by volume.

I'm sure if there was enough demand, it'd be trivial for them to offer the 2x3.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Maxzillian said:


> AGCO has a 2x3 and 2x4 baler, but only the 2x4 was ever offered in North America and it was only attempted for a few years; aiming for the export market as a 2x4 could fill a container by volume.
> 
> I'm sure if there was enough demand, it'd be trivial for them to offer the 2x3.


My MF dealer was telling me a couple weeks ago that they have heard in maybe 1-2 years they are coming out with redesigned big balers.  Or at least somewhat different. Maybe a 2x3 will be in that offering if the market is right.


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

Can any of you blokes remember the inter 57 wire tye first baler I drove by my self.at the same time the neighbors had a 281 NH. If I remember the inter was just a little faster.also the inter did a knot and the NH twisted the wire,and when you picked the NH bale the wire would dig into your knuckles


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## chadk66 (Nov 3, 2017)

I'm really late to this post but new on the board. I trained thoroughbred race horses for quite a number of years. Frequent the track still today since my brother still ownes race horses. Most of the hay and straw being used now days at the track are large square bales. The feed companies can handle them with a single person so it cuts their labor down dramatically. They deliver on flat bed trucks with a small fork lift hanging on the back of the truck. Like Home Depot or Lowes has on their delivery trucks. They park by the barn, grab their fork lift and run the bales in to the barn. The grooms just cut the strings and take a few flakes of straw and spread it in the stalls. Hay is generally the same but stuffed in hay nets.


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