# Resistant marestail in soybeans



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

So picked up the 120 acres directly behind us and have found out that it has roundup resistant mares tail, also seem to have some curly dock that isn't dying well either.

I've done a little bit of research so far and have come up with several products that may control it. Long term plan is to use Liberty Link soybeans next time its rotated into soybeans. Has anybody found something that will work instead of just throwing money at it and hoping that it works?

We've even considered getting the ole rope wick out and using Liberty in it instead of roundup.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I've got more marestail showing here than I've ever had before. And I have curly dock that just doesn't want to die. (Then again, I can't blame it--I don't want to die either.).

Ralph


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Not much you can do now except throw money away or look at an ugly field. Marestail is easily controlled with Valor XLT or authority residuals. Roundup ready beans are a thing of the past here, everything is LL or Extend here now because of water hemp.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We burn down with Sonic and Roundup and it did a good job we also plan for Mare's tail it is bad in our area I just sprayed 100 acres of beans for the second time a week ago was straight Roundup because we had no Mare's tail but I know we will in time. For that reason all the soy beans I planted so far we're extend beans so I had the option to come in and spray with th dicamba intended for beans xtendimax
. , that being said here in Pennsylvania I have seen the herbicide First-rate do a very good job post-emergence on Mare's tail, at least I saw it dying and I asked guys what they used and that's what they used I have never used first-rate but again from what I have seen I would highly recommend it in Pennsylvania, any of that stuff if you have any chance of getting it less than 6 inches is the key,


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

If you catch it small, say less then 4in you can get it, after that you may turn it a bit but won't kill it. Last year was water hemp, this year it's mares tail, went with Buc+ at it's max rate and added duel, got a shower right after I finished and seems to be working but time will tell. I'm being told to wait till crops start to die or in your case after picking and come in with weedmaster or similar product for next years crop. I just finished spraying, 64ozs Buc+, 1pt duel at 10gal per acre and doused the big ones with the hand wand, will let you know in a couple of weeks.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

6" tall phase is long gone, problem is as well the first dose stunted em a little then they just bushed out at ground level and regrew, so now instead of one stem some of have 3-5 stems on em, so even more weed seeds.

I ran the Liberty and rope wick ideal past somebody else, they thought couldn't get enough of the plant covered with it to get a good kill.

Another thing, will the resistant weeds remain resistant forever or would that trait drop out after awhile of not being exposed to roundup? Jut wondering what to do someday if the things become resistant to Liberty eventually. This is the only field I have that has the issue atm. Dad has two that re mostly our fault, back in 2012 in the drought we sprayed a few times but never got a good kill on the mares tail, figured it was dry enough they weren't actively growing enough to take in enough roundup to kill em.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I have seen guys go through some tall stuff with first-rate you may not have good control but you'll definitely have suppression will the beans flower soon


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

endrow said:


> I have seen guys go through some tall stuff with first-rate you may not have good control but you'll definitely have suppression will the beans flower soon


I need to get out and look at em again, these were planted in April before what felt like winter returned for a few weeks.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Talked to our seed guy and the area rep, both said First Rate doesn't work here. We sprayed one of Dads fields with Flexstar GT and Extreme, mares tail is getting nice and crispy now.

Both reps claim to add 2-4D and oil to the burndown ahead of beans as the RR resistant mares tail comes up early and later flushes aren't resistant?

Use canopy as part of the residual program for beans.


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## Wcbr1025 (May 1, 2015)

mlappin said:


> Talked to our seed guy and the area rep, both said First Rate doesn't work here. We sprayed one of Dads fields with Flexstar GT and Extreme, mares tail is getting nice and crispy now.
> Both reps claim to add 2-4D and oil to the burndown ahead of beans as the RR resistant mares tail comes up early and later flushes aren't resistant?
> Use canopy as part of the residual program for beans.


The marestail may look crispy but here a lot of times it'll turn back green in the top after a week or so.
We had good luck running 1.25 oz of sharpen, 2oz valor, 1quart of glysophate .5 oz of first shot and a pint of AMS for burn down. Here we can run first rate and clean up any misses but I haven't seen any marestail since burn down.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

My rep is telling me we need to forgo conventional thinking and do a fall application with something like weedmaster which is a mix of dicamba and 2-4D.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Wcbr1025 said:


> The marestail may look crispy but here a lot of times it'll turn back green in the top after a week or so.
> We had good luck running 1.25 oz of sharpen, 2oz valor, 1quart of glysophate .5 oz of first shot and a pint of AMS for burn down. Here we can run first rate and clean up any misses but I haven't seen any marestail since burn down.


 yes yes that is correct if you have a good burn down program like you're speaking of you can get the Mare's tail post-emergence, but if your burn down is a weak rate Roundup only you will have a mess. If you do not have a strong burn down program like the one you are using you will have hell to pay later and you will say oh s*** none of these herbicides work. The first one hundred acres of early burn down we use Sonic and Round Up PowerMax and clarity and we completely cleaned up the Mare's tail, and I do know we have severe Mare's tail pressure because anywhere I so much as skipped an inch with that early burn down it is packed full of Marestail along the edges or even 4 - 5 inch Skipper in Midfield


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

pede58 said:


> My rep is telling me we need to forgo conventional thinking and do a fall application with something like weedmaster which is a mix of dicamba and 2-4D.


 a lot of beans around here get cut pretty late for that line of thinking, if I wasn't a cover crop grower I would go with one of the Fall applied residual products for Fall Mare's tail control


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

One other thing I would mention that I have been hearing at Growers meeting and that is used a good source of Roundup like PowerMax or something like that and do not use any other cheap generics


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Re losing resistant traits, the only way to lose those traits is for non-resistant versions to outcompete them. As long an round up use is high in the area that won't happen. The fun of watching evolution in action.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm not sure I agree with not using generic, only a 5% difference in active ingredients but would strongly suggest that you use the max rate, I put it on at 64ozs. Endrow, copy that on the cover crop. I just got back from spotting and fairly satisfied with my Buc+/duel mix just need to figure out why everything is brown but they'll be like 4 that are still green.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Were just told about the ten month restriction on planting corn&#8230;.

Still very wet here, we can spray if we had too, just shouldn't.

The Flexstar seems to have got em, however now have a fresh flush of em coming thru&#8230;.

And of course if we want to throw more money at em the co-op has something else we can use, really starting to think Liberty Link soybeans will be in our future even though the Liberty and seed cost more than roundup beans, we now have as much per acre in chemical costs as Liberty and Liberty seed would have cost.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Liberty beans look like the only option we have here going forward. My LL beans are the cleanest beans I have ever had and as the season goes on, it becomes more and more apparent that dicamba beans will not be back next year.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

*I was considering LL, little trouble for me to do the 20gal per acre app rate but my question to you guy's, according to my rep you need to add a couple of other things to the liberty how much does that drive up the cost? I didn't ask because when he starts saying you need this and that all I can here is ch-ching. *


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

pede58 said:


> I'm not sure I agree with not using generic, only a 5% difference in active ingredients but would strongly suggest that you use the max rate, I put it on at 64ozs. Endrow, copy that on the cover crop. I just got back from spotting and fairly satisfied with my Buc+/duel mix just need to figure out why everything is brown but they'll be like 4 that are still green.


 the person who made that comment at that Growers meeting was not referring to the percentage of glyphosate in The Jug he was referring to the quality of the glyphosate and the quality of the surfactant,


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I guess I never thought about how many different generics there are, but when they start talking about sticking with brand A sure sounds like a sales pitch, not that it was but you know what I mean. the term generic in this instance is, for the lack of a better term generic and simply means a company has either bought the right or the patent has expired and if you stay with a major MFG and follow their label I doubt you'll see any difference. If I remember right the label on Buc+ for example required a few more ozs per acre then roundup. Now when you get into the homeowners market, that's a whole different ballgame.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

pede58 said:


> I guess I never thought about how many different generics there are, but when they start talking about sticking with brand A sure sounds like a sales pitch, not that it was but you know what I mean. the term generic in this instance is, for the lack of a better term generic and simply means a company has either bought the right or the patent has expired and if you stay with a major MFG and follow their label I doubt you'll see any difference. If I remember right the label on Buc+ for example required a few more ozs per acre then roundup. Now when you get into the homeowners market, that's a whole different ballgame.


We were told by a rep to use 10% more "generic" roundup than a person would normally use actual Roundup™️


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Me thinks the seed/chemical rep is full of crap, he claims adding 2-4d to the burndown will take care of early mares tail and what comes up later usually isn't RU resistant. I have one field of beans with resistant marestail, I planted the end of April, is was clean with no green anywhere, so that theory is shot.

I'm thinking Liberty beans next year regardless of what father wants to do.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Me thinks the seed/chemical rep is full of crap, he claims adding 2-4d to the burndown will take care of early mares tail and what comes up later usually isn't RU resistant. I have one field of beans with resistant marestail, I planted the end of April, is was clean with no green anywhere, so that theory is shot.
> I'm thinking Liberty beans next year regardless of what father wants to do.


 your seed rep was right in away that was the thought about 2 years ago, but that changed and here now they're Mare's tail that comes up later is resistant, and if you do it right the way it should be you won't like the price of the Liberty program at all. Another thing to keep in mind my BTO friend says here in our area if use the full rate of Liberty you'll wait one year to plant corn or you wished you did, so using Liberty beans on some of your lateter planting could be a bit tricky,


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I got word today, and this does little for planted crops but in fence rows and road ways I was told 1/2gal roundup, 1/2gal of weedmaster(2-4D/dicamba) per acre plus 2.5gal Event per 100gal, will let you know.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

endrow said:


> your seed rep was right in away that was the thought about 2 years ago, but that changed and here now they're Mare's tail that comes up later is resistant, and if you do it right the way it should be you won't like the price of the Liberty program at all. Another thing to keep in mind my BTO friend says here in our area if use the full rate of Liberty you'll wait one year to plant corn or you wished you did, so using Liberty beans on some of your lateter planting could be a bit tricky,


Liberty has no residual plus planting corn with LL trait and it is poor killer of grass anyway. I don't think that is his problem.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

We were talking about this issue last night out at town. Some guys hereabouts are seeing cupping in their beans (I have some going on myself) as much as 1/4 to 1/2 mile from a dicamba treated field. I know that the nearest bean field of any kind is over 1/4 mile from me.

They were thinking that it had to do with high humidity/high volatility of 2,4D and dicamba. They though maybe is was evaporating, then settling is low lying areas overnight. But I'm seeing some cupping right by my house which is way up on a ridge.

So I'm wondering if there isn't something else going on.

Ralph


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

Ralph, I'm hearing dicamba drift for what ever reason is extremely bad, and seeing the results also, been using 2-4D for years but nothing like this got to be the dicamba.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

pede58 said:


> Ralph, I'm hearing dicamba drift for what ever reason is extremely bad, and seeing the results also, been using 2-4D for years but nothing like this got to be the dicamba.


I'm wondering about the volatility and humidity relation. I can see some drift at spray time, but 2--4 weeks later? Delayed response?

And does the humidity cause the air to be heavier, thereby causing low areas to be affected more? Wouldn't that leave ridge tops in good shape but ding the valleys pretty badly?

Just feels to me like we're missing something. (Maybe aliens?)

Ralph

If you can't find the problem where you're looking, look someplace else!


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Lots of cupped beans here and most close proximity to dicamba fields.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

haybaler101 said:


> Lots of cupped beans here and most close proximity to dicamba fields.


 I believe this dicamba thing is on very shaky ground, my seed rep says you'd have to wonder if it'll be here next year but a lot of dicamba beans for seed are already grown...

The big question in my mind is what's going wrong with this **** Amber Bean system


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Not feeling so bad, seeing lots of other bean fields with mares tail showing now, worked or no till doesn't matter.

Tried one more time on one of our fields, thought we had it, mares tail looked good and crispy, got a rain, green stuff growing out above the crispy section.

Going to Liberty Link beans next year and skipping cover crops on the corn stubble as to ensure that the residual finds its way to the ground.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Everyone I talked to about bean herbicides and everyone on here for last 2 years says they're going to Liberty beans yet nobody has or at least not many people. I would be interested in Liberty beans I am told where I farm the availability of Liberty beans is not good. I wonder how many Liberty beans we're actually grown for seed this year commercially. If everyone decides they're going to Liberty beans I wonder how many could actually get them


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

endrow said:


> Everyone I talked to about bean herbicides and everyone on here for last 2 years says they're going to Liberty beans yet nobody has or at least not many people. I would be interested in Liberty beans I am told where I farm the availability of Liberty beans is not good. I wonder how many Liberty beans we're actually grown for seed this year commercially. If everyone decides they're going to Liberty beans I wonder how many could actually get them


In my backyard this year, I would say 75% of all beans are LL, 20% are dicamba, and the other 5% are either RR or non GMO and both of which the growers wish the were not.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

/sigh, father is being difficult now, wants to try XtendiMax® soybeans next year.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Not feeling so bad, seeing lots of other bean fields with mares tail showing now, worked or no till doesn't matter.
> Tried one more time on one of our fields, thought we had it, mares tail looked good and crispy, got a rain, green stuff growing out above the crispy section.
> Going to Liberty Link beans next year and skipping cover crops on the corn stubble as to ensure that the residual finds its way to the ground.


, I'd highly recommend against skipping cover crops but you got to know.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

For those of you that that already use Liberty or are real familiar with the use of the product do you ever take Nick's Liberty and Roundup together


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

endrow said:


> For those of you that that already use Liberty or are real familiar with the use of the product do you ever take Nick's Liberty and Roundup together


 does anyone tank mix Roundup and Liberty together


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

endrow said:


> , I'd highly recommend against skipping cover crops but you got to know.


Between the cover crops and all the stover left over from 200 b/a corn, can be mighty hard to get the heavier ground to ever dry out, would just skip em on the ground that has corn and will be going to beans in the spring.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

If you have Mare's tail now the cover crops go a long way helping to keep the stuff from taking off in the spring. We've had it about 3 years now Some Farms did some Farms Didnot , now everybody has it. You should be okay without cover crops in next year's bean ground, up here the only guys missing it are the guys who grow no cover crops and Have land that for some reason keeps them from spraying their burned down and residual early and then the Mare's tail gets ahead of them. You said you had some Mare's tail you couldn't stop this year bean ground. So far most people find it's an uphill battle it only gets worse.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

Well I can tell you my heavy mix of dicamda/2-4D/buc+/event smoked the mares tail so far, another week will tell, course this does you no good in beans besides the cost is just stupid. I think I asked before but has anyone suggested that you do a spray after harvest?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I like DIcamba/2-4d. I used this mixture on quite a few of my fields this year and it has been years since they have been this clean. Henbit can be hard to kill...especially in the later stages....but this mix smoked it and works well on thistle also. Come to think of it, it worked well on most everything. I used Rangestar. And yes it will drift....so don't spray early or late in the day. I noticed some tea cup leaves on some trees where they got a whiff. I think spraying Di here is now mandated between 9am and 4pm.

Regards, Mike


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Resistant marestail showed up here about 10 years ago and is a huge problem but very easily controlled. If not using cover crops, everything is sprayed in the fall with 2,4-D and canopy and then use a good residual in the spring with burn down like Valor XLT. This keeps beans extremely clean of marestail. Personally, I have found that a decent stand of cereal rye keeps marestail from germinating, almost to the point it is tempting to forgo residuals in the spring. If a fall flush is present in corn stalks, I would hit it with 2,4-D before planting cereal rye. Also have found that leaving cereal rye green in the spring really helps to draw moisture out of heavy dirt and residue, just don't get rye stand so thick that it gets 6 feet tall!


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

haybaler101 said:


> Resistant marestail showed up here about 10 years ago and is a huge problem but very easily controlled. If not using cover crops, everything is sprayed in the fall with 2,4-D and canopy and then use a good residual in the spring with burn down like Valor XLT. This keeps beans extremely clean of marestail. Personally, I have found that a decent stand of cereal rye keeps marestail from germinating, almost to the point it is tempting to forgo residuals in the spring. If a fall flush is present in corn stalks, I would hit it with 2,4-D before planting cereal rye. Also have found that leaving cereal rye green in the spring really helps to draw moisture out of heavy dirt and residue, just don't get rye stand so thick that it gets 6 feet tall!


 I agree completely ,is we don't have MaresTail as long as you do . But we are learning to keep it under control. I still see some that live up north of me that's still think they can grow a crop a full season beans with just one quart of Roundup. Long gone are the days when we can get by with budgeting $2.25 for herbicides on full season beans


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Two pictures of full season beans and two pictures of beans that were planted after wheat June 27th


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

4.1 Liberty beans no tilled April 14th into standing rye. Rye was sprayed with roundup and residual on April 11th. 32 oz. Liberty plus another shot of residual on May 25th. Fungicide applied July 25th. Picture taken July 23rd.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

endrow said:


> Two pictures of full season beans and two pictures of beans that were planted after wheat June 27th


Is that a Hesston rake in the picture?

Ralph


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

That is a Hesston rake but it is badged H&S but it is that 5012 Hesston same rake. Behind iH 686, just standing there answering Nature's call and I thought the beans look pretty good so I snapped a shot


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

We have em on both with and without cover crops. WE have em on ground that had been worked up to this year, I rented it and it was bare ground as they worked it last fall, I mean bare ground without a bit of green in site, have em there as well. We have em coming thru on fields that had an excellent cover crop. were sprayed with RR and 2-4D and a residual. Wondering if some of the heavy rains washed the residual out. Of course some of the worst fields are next to other peoples who normally couldn't keep anything weed free with napalm and agent orange, so we have the joy of getting there seedbank.

I'm wanting to quit flying cover on corn thats going to beans the next year as every spring Father is going to spray that first, every year he puts it off as the "cover crops are really growing now" then every year about time he things he should be spraying the wet weather sets in and they don't get sprayed in time then I can't plant the nI want as the Hiniker doesn't like planting into green or soddy conditions. Or with all that organic matter on the ground along with the cornstalks, you just can't get it to dry out enough to plant in a timely fashion. Easily the best beans we'll have this year are the ones I planted on my ground when I wanted to, that newly rented one that was bare and warmer from being bare ground all spring. Was planted April 26th, probably one of the best looking bean fields around.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I've been doing a lot of research on this, I've got mares tail and water hemp and the key is to hit them when they start to pull nutrients into the roots for winter survival and with me not being a farmer it gets a bit confusing when they start talking about heat units but from what the so called experts tell me it's after the first killing frost, generally 28degs. The plus to this is it only takes a pint of 2-4D/dicamba(weedmaster) per acre and it's relatively cheap. My problem is convincing my client who is a see weeds kill weeds kind of guy, feels like he is getting his moneys worth that way, keep telling him if he doesn't see them isn't that the same.....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

We have issues with mares tail on ground that was bare without a trace of green anywhere when it was planted. Took longer, but the guys that use tillage are getting some ugly fields now as well.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Marestail loves bare ground cerial rye cover crop is the best method for control over winter . Some will spray residual in fall . As said a shot of dicamba in fall would be good.. but IMO that is only if it has started to sprout after the combine cut the beans ,


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I ran into a sales rep yesterday and Dow has just labeled a new product that looks promising, Elevore.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

pede58 said:


> Well I can tell you my heavy mix of dicamda/2-4D/buc+/event smoked the mares tail so far, another week will tell, course this does you no good in beans besides the cost is just stupid. I think I asked before but has anyone suggested that you do a spray after harvest?


Would kind of kill the cover crop that was flown on a month earlier.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Got a free breakfast yesterday and the local Pioneer dealers field day. Pioneer rep said most likely by next year in Indiana the cut off date for using dicamba/extendamax will be June 10th??? Seems totally pointless in planting extendamax beans, seeing fields that were clean all summer and now are getting mares tail.

Plan now is for next spring to go back to 20 gallons/acre on burndown, using roundup and 2-4d even on whats going to beans and using two residuals. Pioneer dealer said they were mixing in a half rate of Synchrony with the roundup and spraying that over non STS soybeans, would burn the beans a little but was taking the mares tail out.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Marty, marestail is a simple fix. Burn down 2 weeks prior to planting with 44 oz. power max, 8 oz 2,4-D and 1 oz sharpen plus 3 oz valor XLT for residual. Marestail shouldn't even be a problem rest of season. Used that system for several years till water hemp got here. I would definitely be planting LL beans though.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Like I've said before, several of my fields were clean before planting, nothing to burn down as the owner did fall tillage and finished it as well. This ground was bare, mares tail started coming thru during a rainy spell in July where even the articulated sprayer would have made a mess.

Can't remember what, but we have another problem weed that Liberty doesn't work that well on.


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## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

I got to check on Elevore today, seems it has the feds approval now just needs the state to do the same. it looks promising as an alterative in the chemical rotation, just hope it's not to pricey.


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