# I really dislike the Craigslist hay whiners



## Teslan

In my area every week or so there is someone posting on Craigslist about the greedy farmers raising prices and gouging poor livestock owners. This annoys me to no end. I feel like sending these people e-mails explaining farming to them and supply and demand, but I know it won't help. They just want their 4 dollar or less for a small bale of hay. I'm honestly somewhat surprised that the price of hay in my area has stayed up this year at around an average of $9 a small bale. Maybe prices for hay have finally risen to keep up with the rising costs of hay production. Ok annoyed rant over. Thanks for reading.


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## slowzuki

I'm still at 3$ a bale here and I'm on the upper end of our market!


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## swmnhay

I would bet the ones posting are feeding hay to their pets,horses.Not to livestock.They just want the hay cheaper so they have more money for beer and cigs.The latest electronic gadget.Or their new 60K pickup pulling their 60K horse trailer.


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## Vol

slowzuki said:


> I'm still at 3$ a bale here and I'm on the upper end of our market!


I would not square for $3. You cannot be making any money with the price of fuel and amendments....much less machinery costs. What does a 1000 pound roundbale sell for in your part of the world?

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki

1000 lb round bale normally is 30$. There are a few premium sellers at 45-50$ but the market is extremely small at that price.

I should note these are 40-50 lb 14x18x36" squares of grass hay. Timothy mixes.

I'm competing with some folks selling for 2$ a bale out of the field and even people at 2.25$ a bale delivered in kicker wagons.

The only benefit we have is the land is basically rent free. People just want their fields kept free of trees. Since its about 50-70$ an hour for bushhogging they give the hay away free.

My margin at the moment is pretty much 0$ per bale once all expenses are considered.

We are working on increasing prices again to 3.25 a bale. That is laughable to most on here but its a fine line. I could be stuck with a barn full of year old hay. We are making a good name for dry dust free hay so if we can be consistent with that I think we could eventually move our prices up higher again. I also have started doing a few things such as strapping our extra conveyor to the sides of wagons going to clients that don't have one, helping to unload wagons when dropping them.

A few of the things I do, like storing hay in our barn and delivering for minimal fee I'm working to stop doing. Each 300 bale load represents 7.5 manhours of work to remove from barn and deliver and we only get about 75$ for this work and maintaining a road worthy trailer. Not worth it for me.



Vol said:


> I would not square for $3. You cannot be making any money with the price of fuel and amendments....much less machinery costs. What does a 1000 pound roundbale sell for in your part of the world?
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## Teslan

slowzuki said:


> 1000 lb round bale normally is 30$. There are a few premium sellers at 45-50$ but the market is extremely small at that price.
> 
> I should note these are 40-50 lb 14x18x36" squares of grass hay. Timothy mixes.
> 
> I'm competing with some folks selling for 2$ a bale out of the field and even people at 2.25$ a bale delivered in kicker wagons.
> 
> The only benefit we have is the land is basically rent free. People just want their fields kept free of trees. Since its about 50-70$ an hour for bushhogging they give the hay away free.
> 
> My margin at the moment is pretty much 0$ per bale once all expenses are considered.
> 
> We are working on increasing prices again to 3.25 a bale. That is laughable to most on here but its a fine line. I could be stuck with a barn full of year old hay. We are making a good name for dry dust free hay so if we can be consistent with that I think we could eventually move our prices up higher again. I also have started doing a few things such as strapping our extra conveyor to the sides of wagons going to clients that don't have one, helping to unload wagons when dropping them.
> 
> A few of the things I do, like storing hay in our barn and delivering for minimal fee I'm working to stop doing. Each 300 bale load represents 7.5 manhours of work to remove from barn and deliver and we only get about 75$ for this work and maintaining a road worthy trailer. Not worth it for me.


Does your $3 you get per bale go further in Canada then the U.S.? If I had to sell for $3 small bale I believe I would just start raising grass fed cows and feed it myself.


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## Tim/South

I have said this before. The best money in hay for me right now is feeding it myself. We all have to adapt to our local market or find a way to ship hay.

The CL ads here for hay are cheap. I will keep baling as I want to keep my rent free fields. I have an investment in them. Plus I do not know how long the people selling below cost here will be around once they try and balance their check book.

I have zero patience for price whiners. They enjoy their holidays when we are doing hay because the weather finally gave us a window. They whine about anything that does not cater to them or their schedule.

We sacrifice a lot just to make hay. We have to be frugal to show a profit.

I have told them up front that until they have poured their own sweat out of a rubber boot that I do not want to hear them whine.


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## endrow

for those who struggle to find a market or in 
general just suitable buyers for your hay


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## endrow

just take your hay to a hay auction I believe many who post on herecould learn a lot by attending hay auction and expose themselves the buyers as well


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## Tim/South

endrow said:


> just take your hay to a hay auction I believe many who post on herecould learn a lot by attending hay auction and expose themselves the buyers as well


I wish there was a hay auction around here with in driving distance. Hay auctions and selling by the ton is not available here.


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## slowzuki

Same here, no hay auction, have to find your own customers. Cattle prices aren't so good here anymore either, due to BSE etc the US market is tough and the closest federally inspected slaughter house is 4 hours drive away in the wrong direction. You can sell meat locally without needing federal slaughterhouse but market is smaller.

I've always wondered why the beef industry is so poor here, we have nearly free pasture all over mostly already fenced from years gone by, water is plentyful, its so much easier to put up sileage for cattle than do any type of hay here. I'm guessing its the getting them to market problem.


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## CockrellHillFarms

Some areas have way more hay auctions than others. There arent hay auctions around here. Last year I think someone tried to start one but I'm guessing it was rather small. I never went/nor did I have a need to send any. I wouldnt do it for $3/bale either. I'd buy more cows and the square bale equipment would be sold.


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## Tim/South

There is only one man around here who asks me about buying cow hay. He is the only man I know with cows that does not make his own hay.
The other inquiries are for Bahia horse rounds. Sold 100 or so rounds last year for cash flow.
I am keeping all my hay now, increased herd size. I did sell 10 rolls to a friend, only charged him $40 and dropped it off at his place since it was on my way home. He said his horses loved the hay (Bahia). Said he did not mind having to pay top dollar for good hay.
Compared to what some sell hay for around here I guess $40 is considered top dollar?


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## endrow

I guess I am lucky we can go to an auction 6 days a week 65 to 25 miles away most in Lancaster County PA . Some of the auctions I go to hay is hauled there 200 or more miles .


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## RockyHill

Wishing for hay auction in Kentucky - Tennessee would be fine & could get the folks further south involved as well. With that said, is it appropriate to advertise hay for sale in the Marketplace Forum? Barn is almost full of this 1st (that includes a lot of what would have been 2nd cutting but surprisingly still in good condition) cutting that we've gotten baled in the little weather opportunities.


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## Vol

RockyHill said:


> Wishing for hay auction in Kentucky - Tennessee would be fine & could get the folks further south involved as well. With that said, is it appropriate to advertise hay for sale in the Marketplace Forum?


You bet it is....I cannot remember if I gave you a welcome, but it's good to have you on board RockyHill.

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki

200 miles for a hay auction... That would take me 180$ of fuel just to get 300 bales of hay there and back on my flatbed. How do those auctions work? Do you leave it on your truck and they bid on the hay and delivery or is everything unloaded and reloaded?


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## jrcrumiI

No hay auctions here in Central NM that I know of.. maybe I need to start one...lol...


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## JD3430

Looks more and more like I better get myself a big trailer. 
I'm getting to like the idea of these hay auctions. 
I just can't understand how after you bring your hay up, what do they do, walk around your trailer and inspect the hay? Then bid on it? What does winner do? Pay auctioneer then auctioneer pays me? 
How long do I wait for money? Are funds guaranteed? 
Sorry for all the ?'s.


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> Looks more and more like I better get myself a big trailer.
> I'm getting to like the idea of these hay auctions.
> I just can't understand how after you bring your hay up, what do they do, walk around your trailer and inspect the hay? Then bid on it? What does winner do? Pay auctioneer then auctioneer pays me?
> How long do I wait for money? Are funds guaranteed?
> Sorry for all the ?'s.


You pretty much got it.Here you bring your hay a hr or so early it gives time for people to inspect the hay.You may test the hay before hand and have a copy of it on the load..

Winner pays auction co.

Auction co pays you less commission.Usually shortly after the sale.

Auction co gets stuck with the bad checks.

That's why some prefer to sell threw auctions here.

Some auctions are quality tested auctions and they test all the hay on site and post on the load.

Auctions here on a semi or pickup and trailer you usually del 10 mile free then get pd milage after that.Some bring on flat racks and buyer pulls it home and unloads and then returns the rack,hopefully!!

There are some auctions were u unload on the ground and it is sold in the pile and you load it on own trailer or hire it hauled home.

Its time consuming to sell at auction,but something to do on a winter day.Drink coffee,eat donuts and BS with everyone.


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## JD3430

Swmnhay,

That was so helpful. I was really able to visualize what you said and how it works.
Thanks to the rest of you. I gotta get a trailer I own so I can take loads up at any given time.


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## triabordofarm

I couldn't to sell hay for $3 a bale--I'd be broke in a month!!


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## slowzuki

To the folks who couldn't break even at 3$ a bale, what is your biggest expense? Here pretty much everything is more expensive except land. There is no way I could support new equipment or tractors with my operation, and I would have to be very careful if I was to put money into a newer building, and my tractors have to do snow removal in the winter to keep them paid for.


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## Nitram

Teslan, have you tried nextech.com yet? My GF told me about it and sold all my Brome hay and the nicest folks we met. Martin


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## Vol

slowzuki said:


> To the folks who couldn't break even at 3$ a bale, what is your biggest expense?


It's not that I could not break even, it's that I work to make profit.....I could make a little profit at $3 if I valued my time at zero. I sell my small square grass hay at $6.....Alfalfa is 50% higher....Here, like most places, fertilizer and fuel are the major out-of-pocket expenses.....

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> To the folks who couldn't break even at 3$ a bale, what is your biggest expense? Here pretty much everything is more expensive except land. There is no way I could support new equipment or tractors with my operation, and I would have to be very careful if I was to put money into a newer building, and my tractors have to do snow removal in the winter to keep them paid for.


Heck I have to do all that even if I charge $6 a bale !!!
When I see guys selling 4x5's for $30, I cringe. I figure I need to make $40/bale just to break even!!!
Ran into a hay grower at local diner in morning. He said I hear you're selling small squares. I said yes I am. He said do us all a favor, don't sell hay for less than $6/bale.....that way we can all stay in business!!!


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> You pretty much got it.Here you bring your hay a hr or so early it gives time for people to inspect the hay.You may test the hay before hand and have a copy of it on the load..
> 
> Winner pays auction co.
> 
> Auction co pays you less commission.Usually shortly after the sale.
> 
> Auction co gets stuck with the bad checks.
> 
> That's why some prefer to sell threw auctions here.
> 
> Some auctions are quality tested auctions and they test all the hay on site and post on the load.
> 
> Auctions here on a semi or pickup and trailer you usually del 10 mile free then get pd milage after that.Some bring on flat racks and buyer pulls it home and unloads and then returns the rack,hopefully!!
> 
> There are some auctions were u unload on the ground and it is sold in the pile and you load it on own trailer or hire it hauled home.
> 
> Its time consuming to sell at auction,but something to do on a winter day.Drink coffee,eat donuts and BS with everyone.


Same here, show up a little early, don't want to be first or last load sold. Most of our auctions no body pays any attention whatsoever if the hay has been tested or not.

Get check practically immediately at our auctions. Buyer pays auctioneer, auctioneer cuts seller check minus commission.

First ten miles free, $2 a loaded mile after that.

Double ditto on the BS part.


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## mlappin

slowzuki said:


> To the folks who couldn't break even at 3$ a bale, what is your biggest expense? Here pretty much everything is more expensive except land. There is no way I could support new equipment or tractors with my operation, and I would have to be very careful if I was to put money into a newer building, and my tractors have to do snow removal in the winter to keep them paid for.


Land rent is quickly becoming a huge expense even for hay with some of these guys willing to pay up to $300/acre for large fields then pay to add irrigation to it.

Also have property tax on all my hay equipment and like Vol pointed out, I'm not working for free as my time is very valuable.


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## Vol

swmnhay said:


> Its time consuming to sell at auction, but something to do on a winter day. Drink coffee, eat donuts and BS with everyone.


Sounds like a good thing to do in the dead of winter. Wish I had a hay auction here that was quality like there.

Regards, Mike


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## mlappin

Vol said:


> Sounds like a good thing to do in the dead of winter. Wish I had a hay auction here that was quality like there.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I have 3 within 50 miles (an hour drive in a car) of the farm and another three only about 25 miles away. Practically have an auction within driving distance six days a week year round. The farthest three usually pay better but not enough for the extra milage and time it takes to get there with a load of hay. Another problem with driving too far to an auction, you don't like the price then you either have to eat it or drive all the way home. When we take two trucks if you no sell one we have taken it to the next days auction, left it over night and ride home in the second truck if it sold.

Closest three auction are Thursday, Friday and Saturday. Saturday auction is usually the best for moving horse hay or small squares as a lot of horsey folks work Monday thru Friday and Saturday is the only day they can buy hay.


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## slowzuki

300$ an acre for rent!! Must be some ground. That would require me to charge 6$ a bale just to break even. Is that normal or is it more like 100$ an acre usually?



mlappin said:


> Land rent is quickly becoming a huge expense even for hay with some of these guys willing to pay up to $300/acre for large fields then pay to add irrigation to it.
> 
> Also have property tax on all my hay equipment and like Vol pointed out, I'm not working for free as my time is very valuable.


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## JD3430

Anyone who asks me for rent for land can kiss my ass. 
Ask em what it'll cost to bush hog it.....then you'll hear the sound of crickets.

Heck, I oughta be charging them for keeping their land cut and productive!


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> Anyone who asks me for rent for land can kiss my ass.
> Ask em what it'll cost to bush hog it.....then you'll hear the sound of crickets.
> 
> Heck, I oughta be charging them for keeping their land cut and productive!


Some airport ground in permanent grass was rented for 100 per acre.Not high producing mixed grass with a lot of bluegrass in it.Nice hay but low yielding.100 acres.

Next county over they got $175 for thiers 2 yrs ago,maybe 20 acres.

Farmers are a fickle bunch,bid the profit out of it.

Bidders on Airport #1 filed banckruptcy a few yrs back.The father and both sons.

Airport #2 bidder has quit hay and sold his cows and is working in town now.He said he wasn't makin any $


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## mlappin

slowzuki said:


> 300$ an acre for rent!! Must be some ground. That would require me to charge 6$ a bale just to break even. Is that normal or is it more like 100$ an acre usually?


All depends on the ground, I have one field that's sans rent, the hills scared everybody away and was a cow pasture so not exactly like a pane of glass. No-tilled alfalfa in it years ago and have been making it ever since. Old guy that owns it refuses to take any rent so I just pay em more for his row crop ground. Next one up is $80/acre, is on the wet side, last one made this year. Rest are in the $100-$145 range for hay ground and I have one that's going at $180/acre. Some of the ground Dad is renting is quickly approaching $250/acre, heavier ground no need for irrigation but could stand 2-3000 more feet of tile. Have never had a crop failure on it, but still just enough sand and gravel in the subsoil so it still drains pretty well even in a wet year.

Like I said before, anything 30 acres plus in the area that is sandy is bringing ridiculous amounts for rent then the renter is paying for the well and a new pivot so they can grow seed corn, pickles or green beans. Well drained muck is also sky high for mint production.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> *Anyone who asks me for rent for land can kiss my ass.*
> Ask em what it'll cost to bush hog it.....then you'll hear the sound of crickets.
> 
> Heck, I oughta be charging them for keeping their land cut and productive!


Try that here and you'd be laughed right out of the state.


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## slowzuki

I think its an eastern thing, land everywhere sitting idle and growing back up in trees. I can't keep up with all the offers of land here. Folks want it all kept clear and they know it costs a lot of bushhog it. I turned down 100 acres last year as it was 10 miles away and needed sprayed badly. Good productive land just can't work any more right now.



mlappin said:


> Try that here and you'd be laughed right out of the state.


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## swmnhay

There is no such thing as waste ground here.There is some sort of crop grown on it.Most everything is baled that has grass in it.Ditches,waterways,etc.Some is grazed.

Only waste ground is for the wildlife.Pheasents Forever,Fish & Game,DNR.They have taken a lot of the marginal ground out of production for a few birds at the cost to cow calf guys that used to pasture it.


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## slowzuki

I think we have 1/2 the farmland in our province as 100 years ago? WW2 really knocked the feet out from under most family farms here. If their sons came home they were not interested in farming anymore. My home property is 35 acres, of which 90% of it is rock picked but only 15 acres is still clear. From logging off some trees and counting rings it was let grow in between 1942-1946.

In our neighbourhood I'd say 50% of the fields clear in 1980 have reforested, and there aren't any new ones. There is a new owner logging trees off a field I loaded hay off of in 1991 or so. The poplar trees are about 10" diameter he is taking out. There was about a 120 acre farm clear next to that property that was hayed last about then too. They are busy clearing it for RV/camper lots right now. I was given 15 cords of firewood off it this spring. Picking it up I noticed you can still see the dead furrow from the last plowing running through all the lots with neat pines planted.


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## Dill

Property tax on hay equipment? How does that work?

We pay property tax on land and improvments only. And the state requires that tractors going down the road have a registration and a plate. But I think its less than 20 bucks a year/tractor.


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## slowzuki

I've read some states tax assets of a business or even person. I think in some states for example you pay tax on owning a boat annually. I've heard its on a certain day of the year so some companies register in an adjacent tax free state and make sure none of their equipment is in the state on tax day. Some states tax inventory in this too so people will try to deplete inventory before tax day.



Dill said:


> Property tax on hay equipment? How does that work?
> We pay property tax on land and improvments only. And the state requires that tractors going down the road have a registration and a plate. But I think its less than 20 bucks a year/tractor.


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## mlappin

Dill said:


> Property tax on hay equipment? How does that work?
> 
> We pay property tax on land and improvments only. And the state requires that tractors going down the road have a registration and a plate. But I think its less than 20 bucks a year/tractor.


If it's property of any kind it gets taxed. The county mails the forms out every year, if you've added anything you add that to the list then asses the value yourself, doesn't pay to not add something or undervalue it as they can audit you at anytime.

Indiana tried that plate and registration happy crap on wagons in Indiana at one time if I remember right, we bought A plate and moved it from wagon to wagon.


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## mlappin

slowzuki said:


> I think we have 1/2 the farmland in our province as 100 years ago? WW2 really knocked the feet out from under most family farms here. If their sons came home they were not interested in farming anymore. My home property is 35 acres, of which 90% of it is rock picked but only 15 acres is still clear. From logging off some trees and counting rings it was let grow in between 1942-1946.
> 
> In our neighbourhood I'd say 50% of the fields clear in 1980 have reforested, and there aren't any new ones. There is a new owner logging trees off a field I loaded hay off of in 1991 or so. The poplar trees are about 10" diameter he is taking out. There was about a 120 acre farm clear next to that property that was hayed last about then too. They are busy clearing it for RV/camper lots right now. I was given 15 cords of firewood off it this spring. Picking it up I noticed you can still see the dead furrow from the last plowing running through all the lots with neat pines planted.


We have guys here that are cutting 10-20 acres woods clear down if they have to go around them. I hate it to be perfectly honest, trees serve a purpose as well.


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## JD3430

mlappin said:


> Try that here and you'd be laughed right out of the state.


I believe that, but I live in an area where farming went away. 
We were considered a rural/farming school district and county up until the early 70's. land then shot up to $200,000 acre and farming was nowhere near the highest and best use of land. Housing paid a lot more. With the disappearance of the farms, went the knowledge the farm families had. 
What land is left is primarily owned by the wealthy and they have no idea how to keep it cleared and free of noxious weeds without paying someone to bush hog or buy their own expensive machine. 
People call me looking for help. They are relieved to know someone will actually keep their land cut and they won't have to pay anything. They like the old world concept of their land being put to use. It's "quaint" to them. I have even been able to get them to help defray some weed control costs.

I'm not making a ton of money, even with 150 acres and decent prices for hay. I can't believe a wealthy landowner in this area would have the temerity to charge rent unless it was about $10/acre and the land made 4 tons of hay per acre.
I'm guessing where MLappin lives in Indiana, farming IS far and away THE primary highest and best use for 90% of his county's land. Asking for rent there is probably as customary as a synagogue on every corner in Jerusalem.


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## Dill

Kinda of a mix of the 2 things here in this area. NH went from being logged over for sheep pasture at the end of the 1800s to the 2nd more forested state (behind Maine). I have 128 acres here on the farm, 12 acres of that is open. All but 30 used to be open or pasture 100 years ago. Also the housing boom hit pretty big around here so its hard to find big chunks of open land. But there aren't many of us haying, maybe 5 here in town and a couple in the other towns I operate in. So I've had good luck finding fields since I started my own operation 6 years ago. I don't pay any rent, I have 2 fields that I sell the landowner hay at a discounted rate and take the rest. The others are free rent, I usually give them a qt of syrup or a couple packs of burger.


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## Dill

So whats the rate for taxes on farm equipment?
Our property tax rate is 21.33/1000 of assessment on buildings and land.


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## swmnhay

Dill said:


> So whats the rate for taxes on farm equipment?
> Our property tax rate is 21.33/1000 of assessment on buildings and land.


Every state is different.Mn doesn't have it but we have a state income tax.SD has personal property tax on your eq.NE also.I don't think either one has a state income tax.Where it gets really difficult is if you farm in 2 staes.I have a hay customer on Iowa state line and he has to file both Mn and Iowa income tax and figure out what he made in each state.


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> .I have a hay customer on Iowa state line and he has to file both Mn and Iowa income tax and figure out what he made in each state.


Oh now that would suck.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> I'm guessing where MLappin lives in Indiana, farming IS far and away THE primary highest and best use for 90% of his county's land. Asking for rent there is probably as customary as a synagogue on every corner in Jerusalem.


Not so long ago it was the norm to take an 80 acre farm and cut it into as many pieces as the frontage would allow. Since the little boy who cries wolf has become president though a lot more farms are being sold as one piece. People who had money are either running out or are getting nervous enough they ain't willing to spend it any more.

I personally only know of two pieces of ground that were rent free. The one I have a hay field on as everybody else is afraid of the hills and the older gentlemen was tired of mowing it with a 6' bush hog and another that was so wet and had so many trees in it where they let a tile go bad and instead of fixing it let the trees grow up that even rent free Dad barely broke even on it.

The one that I still have the older gentlemen refuses to take any rent for it so I simply pay him more for the 70 acres of row crop ground than I would normally pay.

Land owners need the rent to cover the property taxes and some of the more unscrupulous in the area to them the quickest way to expand is to offer $10 more an acre and rent it out from under the guy currently farming it. Might be the way business is taught in college, but whether I know them or not I won't cut somebody else's throat to gain another chunk of ground. Everything I farm was either offered to me first or if hearing that it might be up for rent I managed to get it rented without stealing it from the current farmer.


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## JD3430

Yeah I think that's a good way to live. I think all the land I cut except one parcel, the landowner came to me.


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## Chessiedog

I love some of the ads for hay on craigslist .. Blank & blank hay bales $2.50 ...Why not just say free hay ... come get it ...


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## swmnhay

Chessiedog said:


> I love some of the ads for hay on craigslist .. Blank & blank hay bales $2.50 ...Why not just say free hay ... come get it ...


Maybe he is trying to make it up on volume********

A guy has been doing that with sweetcorn,selling it for $1 a dozen.Has stands all over.


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## JD3430

I wish the low ball Charlie's would just all go away. They make us all poorer and the fat cat horse owners richer.


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