# BC5070 KNOTTER HELP (NEED PRO)



## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Bought brand new last year. I would say there are enough bales run through to wear the paint off. Had trouble since new. About 2000 bales through.

The side is always the right side looking from the back of machine.

Knot is always on twine #2 and not on twine #1

Trouble shooting guide states (twine holder spring tension too low)

I have adjusted as stated ¼ turn at a time. I have adjusted a full 1 ¼ turn so far. Looking straight down at end of spring gap. It started out about .125 it is now about .050. I adjusted both sides the same.

I lifted up knotter and took screw driver onto bottom of spring tensioner. To check spring pressure it is very firm. Also compared to left side knotter. They both seam close to the same tension.

Also possible cause is baling to tight. If I was truly bailing to tight wouldn't the breakage be random? Not always on the right side?
Last baled was straw. About 34 inch bales about 25lbs. strings were pretty tight to get finger under. Side hay tension or wedges were screwed all the way in.

I baled 127 and 98 were good. So 29 were broken. Not acceptable to me.

When I unloaded wagon I found many specimens. The result was always the same. The right side only had knot on twine #2.
Big question???? Why did so many bales end up coming apart in wagon? Yes a lot broke apart in air to wagon. Always could see the bales let loose because only one string was on.

So is this a hint to when the string is coming apart?

Please Help! Thank you


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

TORCH said:


> Bought brand new last year. I would say there are enough bales run through to wear the paint off. Had trouble since new. About 2000 bales through.
> 
> The side is always the right side looking from the back of machine.
> 
> ...


Ok Torch, here is what I know. I bought a 570 in 08. Delivered. 1500 of the first 2000 bales misfired. Drove all nuts. Apparently a manager in NH corporate had a brain fart and decided to go with a new supplier of the wiper arm or something in the knotter. what was happening was the twine was compromised before the knot and broke in mid air. Sound familiar? Regional rep here, yada yada. The fix is a hammer and some adult beverage of your choice. I think they are still using the same defective part and the only way to fix it is to beat it into submission. Now why NH brass would muck with what brought them to the dance ( their Knotters) who will know.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Is it a knot on #2 or just a loop, 1/2 knot. If the knot is complete then the twine is breaking. The weakest part of the twine is at the base of the knot,

What knot strength twine are you using?

Right side is usually the side which misties. Bales may not be completely square, and may not be noticeable. The cut side of the bale has a tendency to more material in the needle slot and probably other things also.

If the twine only has a loop on twine two and not a complete knot then the twine is pulling out of the twine disc and twine holder. NH came out with a new twine holder this year because of issues like you are experiencing. The holder has a longer section where the twine holder spring contacts it. What was happening is the flat twine holder spring was slipping off the twine holder shoulder allowing the twine holder to loose tension and the twine to pull out. See your dealer about having the new twine holders installed.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

Tell dealer to get his ass out here and fix it Baler is under warranty!!! Call your salesman until it is fixed. Had same problem when we got our 5070 hayliner they made suggestions and I suggested they get out here and fix it. Showed up at 5:00 PM Friday july 3 and fixed it. Was doing the same thing right side missing 2 out of ten bales or more. Don't know exactly what they did but it has not been a problem since.We have put over 20000 thru it so far. Good luck


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

NH is lacking in their quality control.....that's sad to say.....


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

mike10 said:


> Is it a knot on #2 or just a loop, 1/2 knot. If the knot is complete then the twine is breaking. The weakest part of the twine is at the base of the knot,
> 
> What knot strength twine are you using?
> 
> ...


Mike 10 .

it is a full knot but with only one string. I am using 9000 sisal from the dealer. the same 9000 from fleet farm acts the same way. I will ask about the twine holders. the dealer told me they would charge me $500 just to come out and look. so I got mad and now it is my problem.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

TORCH said:


> Mike 10 .it is a full knot but with only one string. I am using 9000 sisal from the dealer. the same 9000 from fleet farm acts the same way. I will ask about the twine holders. the dealer told me they would charge me $500 just to come out and look. so I got mad and now it is my problem.


I woulda parked it on the showroom floor......


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

If it is a full knot then the twine is not pulling out of the twine disc. The past two years the sisal twine is not what it was in the past. The reason we were given is because of a drought wherever they grow the plants. The drought causes the plants to not reach their full height. What that does is cause short strands in the twine. The twine is made of strands that are not very long. If you take an 8ft piece of twine and tie it to a rafter and tie a wrench on the other end to dangle, the twine will break after a while because the strands will separate.

For the past two years, NH has not even offered sisal twine under their label because of that reason. We hear a lot of complaints about the sisal twine bought everywhere. Many are going to plastic but all the plastic twine in our area is 139 knot strength which is thin twine and can cause other headaches and definitely not for throwers. If you are using a thrower you should try and find 190 knot strength plastic twine. You could also try 7200 ft sisal, but 9000 is not adequate anymore.

Look at the bales that are not broken and see if there are any cut strands about 1/2" from the knot. If so you have a sharp edge on the gullet of the knife arm. Take a file or sandpaper and ease over the corners of the knife arm. It is not unusual to see a couple strands cut but the more that are cut the more twine breakage you will experience.

I know you think that it can not be the twine since the left side does not have this problem, but as I stated in the earlier post there are many reasons for more pressure on the right twine. You could try adjusting the feeder fork to move more material to the left side of the bale which should take some of the pressure off the right side.

The bottom line is, 9000 ft sisal twine is not adequate for your situation.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Just a reminder, the weakest part of the twine is at the base of the knot because of all the twisting that has taken place.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

TORCH said:


> Mike 10 .
> 
> it is a full knot but with only one string. I am using 9000 sisal from the dealer. the same 9000 from fleet farm acts the same way. I will ask about the twine holders. the dealer told me they would charge me $500 just to come out and look. so I got mad and now it is my problem.


I have used 7200 sisal ever since I got my 570. once the problem i mentioned was addressed, I have had good luck with it. Last year the local NH dealer was experiencing a twine supply problem and got some bad twine. The new twine this year is better but still not the quality from say 3-4 years ago. I have had more knot breaks this year than I like and it looks like it is tearing in the knot. Nice info Mike 10.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You say you bought it last year..... December? Less than 365 days? If it's less than 365 days the dealer has no leg to stand on, other wise it's your baby. Sounds to me like it's a string issue. Is there a reason that you're using sisal, instead of plastic? We made around 20K and had no open bales, other than just a few knots where balls were tied together that got fouled up.

Rodney


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

found out that dealers are buying balers on programs and that starts the warranty, then you buy it as new from the dealer but your warranty is already partially gone.I just got charged $415 for fixing the length problem on our 5070 hayliner bought in July fixed in May we were told warranty expired in April.This is not over yet, I have to talk to my salesman and see how he weasels way out of it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Beav said:


> found out that dealers are buying balers on programs and that starts the warranty, then you buy it as new from the dealer but your warranty is already partially gone.I just got charged $415 for fixing the length problem on our 5070 hayliner bought in July fixed in May we were told warranty expired in April.This is not over yet, I have to talk to my salesman and see how he weasels way out of it.


That's bullshit.....I would not put up it.....not for a minute. Hope it works out.....


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Called the service department today. Out of warranty!

All there guys were ether on vacation or on road. The service righter really did not know anything.

I ask about the twine holder and spring updates. He know nothing of any issues. Also asked about bail length fix kit. He also said he did not know of anything about a kit.

So I got know were. He said he would have someone call me Monday. Of course I'm going to bale Sunday.

I better just go get 7200 sisal and try that. I better back off the spring tension because the 7200 is thicker. Or the vote is leave tight?

I'M talking half turn backing off is where I would start.
Any thoughts?


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Reading this thread makes me feel even better about buying old equipment!

I have no expectations of dealer service that will be welched out on anyway!

As I read the OP, he has a fully formed knot on #2 and no knot on #1. As I understand it there is no part of #1 in the knot on #2.

And that is generally referred to in terms of a twine disc issue. On older balers like mine it also can be related to too much clearance over the plunger but that won't be an issue with such a new machine.

As far as NH goes, I'd get real up tight and on their back BIG TIME! I would not stand for it one minute!

I'll put it in cow man terms: They gotta lick their calf over!

...... and until they do, I'd get real good at spreading the word on the NET! .... and let them know about it!

Best regards

Three 44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I'd make them feel the "burn"!

I am no fan of social media but the Dealer and the Manufacturer needs a good %!%%#!! reaming on this.

It's despicable that a machine lands on the dealers yard with the warantee clock running ........ and farmers need to know this ......... it's time to fight back .........

Sunlight is the best medicine for crookedness! The farm magazines are so beholding to the manufacturers for advertising bucks that they will be of NO help in such a matter. An awakening has to start at the grass roots. No better place than the NET to spread the word ........ and ...... There is a lot of new iron sitting at dealer's yards because of low commodity prices ........ I think it's time for a whole bunch more needs to sit on account of this.

With my old iron, I can get in lots of trouble all on my own ...... BUT I have not paid blood money for it ...... and found the rug was pulled out from under me!

Three 44s


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I would adjust it by "feel"....not sure what pound recommendation NH has but I would leave the sisal in the store and try plastic......if I had to get off the baler that many times I would quit...

For comparison, I have a Massey 1837 that has well over 25k and after I straightened out the dealer screw-up, it hasn't missed but maybe 10 times? A few times on a poor knot connection.....a couple of times on some bad (twisted) twine.....not to say that one brand is better than the other, just that the amount of mistyes y'all are talking about is completely unacceptable......


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

I must add I do have a belt thrower on baler so plastic burns through. Is why I have not tried it. also I heard it dulls the knifes faster. easy to sharpen though.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

TORCH said:


> I must add I do have a belt thrower on baler so plastic burns through. Is why I have not tried it. also I heard it dulls the knifes faster. easy to sharpen though.


Plastic should not burn through. It's only going to burn through if you are in EXTREMELY low yielding hay where the bales come very, very far apart. In that case, you will burn through sisal too.

Even if you are operating in rare conditions that will cause some twine to burn, you can avoid it with a little trick. If you see some chaff coming off of the thrower belts indicating you have a bale contacting them and you realize you won't be running any hay through (finishing up point rows) or you'll be running a minuscule amount of hay though for the next minute, just give the thrower a quick back and forth wiggle and it will grab the bale and throw it before anything other than a black mark appears on the twine.

I switched from 7200 sisal last year to 9600/210 plastic. The sisal has been junk for years. Just didn't realize how bad until I switched to the plastic. I can't even imagine trying to run 9000 sisal in a thrower. (I'm running a NH 570 with belt thrower) Unless you are making 25 pound bales on purpose, you'll be able to make them 40 pounds in the same package with the extra tension you can run with the plastic.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Always ran 7200 sisal with our thrower wagons, also made at least 40 lb straw bales.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Beav is not quire right in his statement about dealers buying Balers on prgrams. It can happen but I do think that is the case here. The equipment a dealer has on his lot comes with a due date. This baler was probably in paid inventory. In the past the equipment could remain in paid inventory indefinately and still qualify for the incentives. That has changed and now comes with a cut off date, which in the case of hay equipment is the end of the year. If the dealer does not take the incentives at that time, he is out of luck and will not be competive. Now he has an older piece of equipment that is higher price than a new piece of equipment. This does start the warranty.

Why the warranty ran out in April when the baler was finalized in December is because NH extends the warranties on hay equipment bought in the winter months to the end of March in this situation.

There is a lack of cummication between the front office and the service department. The service manager is correct that the warranty is out.

Torch should not have to be dealing with this but the reality is the larger the dealership the more likely things slip through the cracks.

Torch, you need to be talking to manement. It would surprise me if they did not take care of you.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

"Torch, you need to be talking to manement. It would surprise me if they did not take care of you. "

It would surprise me if they did.......contact an attorney if they do not! They are good for something.....


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Beav said:


> found out that dealers are buying balers on programs and that starts the warranty, then you buy it as new from the dealer but your warranty is already partially gone.I just got charged $415 for fixing the length problem on our 5070 hayliner bought in July fixed in May we were told warranty expired in April.This is not over yet, I have to talk to my salesman and see how he weasels way out of it.


I think I'd be inclined to sue their pants off if I bought a new baler and the dealer short changed me on the warranty like that.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Your dealer sucks as has sisal twine for the last few years. Get plastic 190 knot strength if possible. Mike's advice dead on. You can make it preform some better but life is too short for sisal of today.

32k on new 5070 so far this year w plastic twine and only issues on ball changeover.

Bought a few NH program machines and my warranty always starts when I stroke check.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Btw, here is a pic of my shop at 8 this Saturday morning. Service guy beat me there! Wish it was warranty work but machine is 12 years old. $$$.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The issue with the twine would not be a warrantable failure because the baler is tying. The knotter is working when you have a completed knot. The problem is the twine


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Will go get 190 twine and try


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Warranty can be a touchy subject as can be seen by reading these posts. Every dealer has their own way on how to do things that are not covered by warranty or when situations arise like torch has experienced.

Warranty is for a specific length of time, period. That said, there are other avenues available to the dealer. The dealer can ask for help from the mfg or they can absorb the cost themselves. If the request is legitamate the mfg will come through, but may not be 100% of the cost. In our situation we absorb the labor and the mfg will pay the parts when that situation arises and is approved by the mfg.

In torch's situation we would just absorb the cost even though it probably is not a warranty issue. If torch can show that the twine is being cut thus weakening the twine, then he has a warrantable failure if the machine is still in warranty.

I don,t know how your dealer handles warranty service calls. Mfg's do not pay for travel time and that is in the fine print of the warranty form you sign. Many dealers attach decals to the machine stating that fact that service calls are not covered by warranty. We just absorb the cost, but then again we do not have travel hundreds of mile to do a service call.

I know one thing, and that is if you go in with an attitude the chances for an amicable solution drop. There may come a time when stronger action is required, but at least start out civil.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

If I take close up photos of the twine do you think you could see and read what is going on. It sounds like just get some 7200 siesel and try. I will also see about plastic.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

mike10 said:


> Warranty can be a touchy subject as can be seen by reading these posts. Every dealer has their own way on how to do things that are not covered by warranty or when situations arise like torch has experienced.
> Warranty is for a specific length of time, period. That said, there are other avenues available to the dealer. The dealer can ask for help from the mfg or they can absorb the cost themselves. If the request is legitamate the mfg will come through, but may not be 100% of the cost. In our situation we absorb the labor and the mfg will pay the parts when that situation arises and is approved by the mfg.
> In torch's situation we would just absorb the cost even though it probably is not a warranty issue. If torch can show that the twine is being cut thus weakening the twine, then he has a warrantable failure if the machine is still in warranty.
> I don,t know how your dealer handles warranty service calls. Mfg's do not pay for travel time and that is in the fine print of the warranty form you sign. Many dealers attach decals to the machine stating that fact that service calls are not covered by warranty. We just absorb the cost, but then again we do not have travel hundreds of mile to do a service call.
> I know one thing, and that is if you go in with an attitude the chances for an amicable solution drop. There may come a time when stronger action is required, but at least start out civil.


I agree that most issues can be resolved without legal recourse or even having to go to management....many times it's a lack of communication. And sometimes you just have to explain it to them "in hayman terms" 
This dealer probably had a service fella answer the phone that may have been having a bad day.....(he woulda had an even worse day if he told me they were going to charge $500 to come look at it....) but, be that as it may, good help is hard to find no matter whether you're farming or servicing the farm industry. We are all only as good as the people we surround ourselves with......that being said, I've never had a warranty item not fixed to my satisfaction.....


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

Mike is right I was talking to a person in billing so no reason to ballistic on the messenger. Will talk with salesman to get it straight, I always try to be reasonable first and we buy a lot from them so I am sure that it will be taken care of.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Obviously, you start out amicably but if they refuse to give you your full warantee period, you have nothing to gain by continuing the "nice approach".

Social network up and lawyer up!

Three 44s


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Torch, the best thing to do is try the heavier twine. A picture helps, but you are borderine on what the 9000 twine can handle. If you called me and described what was happening, I would tell you to use heavier twine because I have seen your issue on Balers with throwers. If you still have a problem then we need to look a little closer at the twine and see if it is being cut.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

*the lawyer would cost more then the repair *and the social media could get you in trouble for slander. If the warranty is done and I end up paying that the way it goes. The dealers are getting fewer and far between so I would rather try to work this out myself, even if I pay for all of the repair. IMO lawyers cause more problems then they solve.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

We switched to 7200 twine back in the 80's couple times we ran out and used 9000 always broken bales . Sisal twine is great on the hands but if you want to get rid of knotter problems use plastic . Dad sold twine and when people would say sisal was bad dad would give them a box of plastic and there issue would go away. I wish sisal twine was better but it's not that's a fact so reluctently I have switched to high knot strength plastic.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Beav said:


> *the lawyer would cost more then the repair *and the social media could get you in trouble for slander. If the warranty is done and I end up paying that the way it goes. The dealers are getting fewer and far between so I would rather try to work this out myself, even if I pay for all of the repair. IMO lawyers cause more problems then they solve.


While that may be true Beav, in some situations, you have a choice to allow yourself to be a victim of poor service. If a dealer/manufacturer etc has folks that they take for granted as customers, then they take advantage of their passiveness. If they happen to try the slander angle THEY are going to hire an attorney, is it ok for them but not you? So I would say not to be taken advantage of in any case.....if that means pulling out all the stops, so be it.....I have never felt bad for sticking up for myself.....ever. The dealers are gettin fewer if they are not doing a good job of taking care of their customer, the ones that take care of there customers ain't going anywhere. Good luck with your warranty work.....or was it a used baler you bought, musta been a used one.....seeing how the warranty is up


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

long way to go before it is all said and done


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Mike:

I am so glad you took the time to help me with suggestions to help me with my issues. It is the weekend so dealers are not available. So I have to go to fleet farm to get some 7200. So my day was as everyone else very busy. I needed my wagons to bale with. So I had to get all the broken straw bales off. I pitch fork all off in a wind row. I take all the 9000 out and put in 7200. I got nothing but broken bales. I relies the straw is very slippery and chopped up from being baled already.

I go into alfalfa field and start baling. The one and a half straw bales come out. Holly crap I baled 316 bales and not a one broken bale. I'm not going to get my hopes up but this machine for the first time really preformed. Tomorrow I am going to go to dealer and exchange 8 bundles of 9000 for 7200. Also ask about the plastic.

Fleet farm had 170 not the 190. The plastic is half the price as the sisal.

I have got to thank all of you so far in helping me. I will be also baling tomorrow Monday. so stay tuned for the next update. hopefully I will be finely on tract.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

170 is fine for the thrower. We didn't have near as many broken bales as you and switched to plastic. We were using throwers at the time, burning string was never a problem. Even when no hay was going in the baler, you could see if a bale was sitting in the throat, and a few wiggles of the thrower, and poof! out the bale came. 9600-170 is what we run.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

So I called the buying dealer and also a different dealer closer to me. The closer dealer called back to help with baler issues. Wow I'm going to run back to them to buy another piece of equipment. ( original dealer)
So Mondays baling went ok but still had issues. The issues came when the twine balls changed. The left side went through and the right side got all messed up. I had to re-thread twine on right side. Instead of letting baler go and make a full bale. I always trip the arm by hand to get things back on track faster. So I pull arm too much and it comes off track. Now I trip it again. So now the left side has a double knot on the bill hook and the right side is all messed up too! I re-thread both sides re-trip and ok finely back on track. Now wagon is full and bales falling off. I end the saga and get an empty wagon. I bale 149 bales and only one broke. Switch wagons and bale the rest of field and no broken bales.
Dealer want to come out in field when baling to see firsthand what is going on. If the 9000 is truly not adequate for the job why bother. If he comes out with the 7200 and I bale a few hundred bales he says there is nothing wrong with this baler and send me a bill for $100 an hour and for travel.
I still ponder why only the right side gives me trouble? Too much material to one side as stated before?
I finely found some 170 plastic did not try yet.
Do I pay the huge bucks to have dealer come out? Or just try finishing out the 7200 and install the plastic? All I know is im sick of making junk bales. I should have never sold my 276 new Holland because I did not have all the issues with the 47 year old baler. But the BC5070 smoke the living crap out of the old one when it is working.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Switch to plastic 170# and you probably are not gonna have anymore problems......no need to call dealer except to explain to them that the bc5070 doesn't like sisal so they will know for future reference.....see there, you have a chance to educate them!

Good luck


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

It seems you have the problem corrected, so why have the dealer come out. It is not uncommon to have broken bales when the twine balls switch, either from a bad self tied knot or just because the twine at the beginning of the ball is always iffy. If you pulled the metering arm out of the slot you are lucky you just ended up with a couple of knots on the billhooks. I have done it myself more than once.

I would say that 90% of tieing problems occur on the right side. When twine breaks at the base of the knot, on one side of the bale, it is a clear indication that there is more pressure being put on that twine than the other twine. The only thing which will put more pressure on the twine is the amount of hay trying to be held by that twine. The natrure of the beast is that you will always have more tension on the right side unless the bales are noticably crooked. When your twine is borderline the bales do not take much additional pressure to pop it. Think of the straw that broke the camel's back.

It is not the baler's fault if the twine fails. If you can remember the weight that was in a 9000 ft ball of twine from back when the 276 was new and compare it to the weight in a ball of 9000 ft twine, you will find there is less weight in the new balls. I know for sure that back then a bag of two balls of 9000 weight 40 lbs. Actually took some back then and weighed them to make sure they weighed what the bag said since we had some sacks with two different diamter balls of twine in them. One was light and one was heavy but they weighed 40 lbs together. Now the same sack weighs 39 lbs. Less weigth means thinner twine.


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

F raid I got to angry with what your dealer is doing to you,weather by consumer law or just good business they should be out there fixing the problem. If it is a string problem it the string suppliers problem.I, m very lucky that all our case or newholland are good people and bend over backwards to do a deal and look after service


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Technically, it is neither a baler or twine problem. The correct product needs to be used for each individuals needs. If not for the thrower where the bales are generally packed tighter along with the sudden acceleration, Torch probably could get by with the 9000 ft twine.


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## bjr (Jan 24, 2013)

I feel badly for the guys that actually expect warranty and even though it's on paper and has been signed by all party's involved it's still almost worthless. Yes, I know that some have had some small issues resolved but way to many honest issues have been evaded ("So, Sue Us" attitude). I too buy older, not too old, machinery and have to do the rebuild maintenace myself. I could not afford to operate otherwise. Some of my repairs are from "accidents" that would have never been warranty covered anyways. bjr


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

mike10 said:


> Technically, it is neither a baler or twine problem. The correct product needs to be used for each individuals needs. If not for the thrower where the bales are generally packed tighter along with the sudden acceleration, Torch probably could get by with the 9000 ft twine.


You're right Mike, technically it's a dealer problem.....


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

No, the dealer had no part in the problem. Now, there definetly was a lack of cummication between Torch and his dealer. That could be because Torch talked to the wrong person or the person who was supposed to know the solution did not know what questions to ask, which is what I suspect. A lot of the science to getting at the root of a problem comes from experience and there I would agree the dealer was lacking.

If not for one statement in Torch's original post, we could have been chasing ourselves in circles. The statement that bales were breaking on the way to the wagon gave the casue for the failure away. The bales had to have been tied in order for them to break in the air. My first question to Torch was if the knot was complete on the broken bales or if there was just a loop.

There could still be a problem with the baler if the twine was being partially cut, which was another one of my questions to Torch.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

So, it's not the balers fault, it's not the twines fault, it's not the dealers fault......so is it the guy that plunked down the cash? You answered the question in the first paragraph.......it's a dealer problem, clear and simple. Any dealer or salesman worth a grain of salt would check with the customer to make sure they were not having problems, if they were worth a salt and pepper sandwich they woulda came out to the field while the customer put it to use......I bet they didn't have any problem gettin him signed up or taking his money. Just what is the dealers responsibility? Hook it up to the truck so he can pull it home? 
Let me ask you this Mike, and I do believe that you are one of the dealers that everyone would love to have around, where does the customer fit into all of this? He called back......so should he keep calling until he gets the "right" person? No, the dealer should have been MAKING SURE that the piece of equipment that was purchased, in this case a baler, was finctioniing correctly......it's what the dealer is there for.......to provide service. 
In my little hay making world, I try to call back EVERY customer that leaves my farm with a load of hay....to make sure they made it back successfully, a few days later they may get another call to ensure everything else is ok and the horses like the hay......it's called taking care of your customer, letting them know that you appreciate their hard earned dollars for a bunch of dead grass......you appreciate their confidence in you.....if there is ever a problem, let me know so we can get it worked out......it's called communication. This dealer was lacking in communication, knowledge, and customer service after the sale........the fact that he had to turn to an online forum further validates the point.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I am not saying the dealer should not have done more, my point was that there was nothing wrong with the baler since the bales were tied. There was nothing the dealer could have done to fix the baler since the baler was working properly. There was nothing wrong with the twine, remember he tried twines from different places.

The problem was he was uising a product not suitable for his situation. You can place the blame wherever you like

I guess we are not worth a salt since we do not follow up like you do. We simply do not have the time or the personel to do so. According to Best Practices you are doing it right.

Now, whenever we sell a piece I go to the field with the customer and stay there until I am confident he can operate the equipment and understands how to use it. That goes even if this is his first discbine, baler, rake, ect or his tenth. After operating the equipment, I go over the adjustments that we did not try previously and where to grease and check oil levels, ect. I tell them they should call if they have any problems. After that I think it is the customers responsibility to contact me if they have a problem.

The one thing I have learned over the years is there is always two sides to a story. All we have to go on here on this forum is the one side. We do not know what the other sides position is. It is always easy to make some one look bad when they can not respond.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

100% dealer issue no matter their side of the story. If you shell out 20 or 30k for a baler they should send it to the field full of twine and be there to make sure it works. Some friends of mine bought a brand new Baler last fall and didn't put it into the field until this spring and it wouldn't tie a knot to save its life. Called dealer up he came out within 2 hrs and found the problem was the knotters had been over greased so the cleaned it up and it hasn't missed a beat since.

That wasn't "technically" the dealers problem since it was over greased but they got right on it came out 10 months after the machine was purchased and didn't charge a dime. That's what should be done no questions asked in any of these cases. Dealers are slacking these days and not providing the service we spend our hard earned money on.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

mike10 said:


> No, the dealer had no part in the problem. Now, there definetly was a lack of cummication between Torch and his dealer. That could be because Torch talked to the wrong person or the person who was supposed to know the solution did not know what questions to ask, which is what I suspect. A lot of the science to getting at the root of a problem comes from experience and there I would agree the dealer was lacking.
> 
> If not for one statement in Torch's original post, we could have been chasing ourselves in circles. The statement that bales were breaking on the way to the wagon gave the casue for the failure away. The bales had to have been tied in order for them to break in the air. My first question to Torch was if the knot was complete on the broken bales or if there was just a loop.
> 
> There could still be a problem with the baler if the twine was being partially cut, which was another one of my questions to Torch.


Mike the knots always failed the same way. The knot was formed on (as the book states twine #2)( Always a knot not a loop) So just to clarify, twine #1 goes over the top of bale. #2 twine comes up the back side and would be the short twine. Looking at top of bale standing in back of baler looking to front of tractor.

So the trouble shoot sticker states if you have knot on twine #2. Turn 1/4 turn on twine disk spring. So this is why I went down this path. All in total turned bolt 1-1/4 turn. At this point the spring tension is almost bottomed out. So the red flag comes up this cant be right?

I am puzzled did not see or create another issue because of over tightening spring bolt. Have since turned back a full 1/2 turn.

There were times an untied bale comes out of shoot. ( Has also happened since switched to the 7200 on right side) But this was part of the twine changing balls.
I stop go back look to find the twine. From the broken bale in the knot on next bale. I cut the extra length of twine off knot and go again.

My thought the cause of this issue would be. Caused from the scraper arm not contacting bill hook. With the right amount of interference force or pounds to scrape across the bill hook. Since new I have bent arms into bill hook to increase scraping pressure. Seemed on the light side to me. Would not want to go more, a good amount of force to run across by hand.

Any other item to look at when the broken string is found in knot on next bale?

To answer your question mike is the twine being partially cut? Going to say no, it is not. Let me clarify your description of cut twine, and would look like this. It would have a portion of the twine about an inch back from knot cut through the twine. Is this what you mean by partially cut twine?????

Over all I'm not impressed with the dealers around hear and also the place were I bought this baler. Also have not called out any names of the dealers I have work with. Not in a rush to pay $100.00 hour for a dealer to come out. So instead of paying huge bucks to get help. Yes I turned to HayTalk. I am a tool and die maker by trade. So am very mechanical and handy. I have a machine shop at my disposal and can remake just about anything. All I need is someone as mike stated. To ask me the right questions and I, describe accurately the problem. The times I call a dealer to get answers to my questions. Most of the time I don't get the right guy that knows because he don't works on the equipment. I end up knowing more than the person I'm explaining the problem to.

Would rather talk to the guys who truly are the end users. That see and experience all the issues first hand. People on hear are all sharing info just for that same reason. Cant get answers else were. There are all kinds of people on hear what know a lot of info. So yes I'm quick to ask question on hear because I usually get enough info to get me back on track. This sight has helped me to get smarter and in touch with real people in the "know". So I am guilty of taking the easy rough posting hear. Than getting aggravated and trying to struggle with dealers to get hooked up with proper info.

On dealers behalf I understand they cant pay there top mechanics to answer phone call from people who fix there own equipment. Yes I think it is pitiful the selling dealer cant call me back I'm sick of trying to deal with them. So yes I could have called everyday until they come out and charge me huge bucks! But I post hear and am getting results and hopefully others will learn from reading this forum.

So far in summery it is looking like the BC5070 Balers with throwers using 9000 sisal twine will have brakeage issues. Due to the fact the twine made these days is cheaper than in the past causing issues. Have around 600 bales to make coming up real soon. Will run out the 7200 sisal and try 7200 plastic.

Will wait for mike to pipe in with possible cause for broken twin in knot on next bale.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Boy, this is a rough group, lol. The problems you are having is nothing new, it has been going on as long as I can remember only the dollars involved has changed. In my early days most dealers were family businesses so the bad ones eventually went to the wayside. Today we are dealing with mega dealers and there is no going to the wayside for the bad ones since all mfg's have them. In our area we have primarily family owned companies. Only the JD dealer is a mega dealer but like most things green you never hear any complaints. JUST A JOKE don't get bent out of shape.

It would be interesting to find out if your problems are with mega dealers or family dealers who are having a hard time competing with the larger dealers or just dealers who do not care.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Maybe this should be a different subject but hear goes.

To fill in more information. The last baled went like this. Second cut mostly alfalfa, cut with 10 foot diskbine raked with rotary rake. Nice even and puffy wind rows. Moisture was around 10% sunny when baled. I was traveling around 4 to 5 miles an hour. This was giving me ranging from 12 to 14 flakes per bale. Bales were 34 inch long about 45LBS. About every 7 second popped out bale. Also PTO speed is at full 540 RPM. I set it like this. Baler rated at 93 strokes per minuet. I set at 23 to 24 stroke per 15 seconds.

So if I'm doing anything wrong hear now is the time to let me know.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

IMHO - given the relatively small numbers of square balers sold in relation to round balers, it's no wonder the dealers don't know squat about tying mechanisms or any other aspect of a new (or old) square baler - regardless of brand.

I feel, given the complexity of small square balers, manufacturers of small square balers (and I'd expect to see this from New Holland first) is a toll free technical help line to the factory, staffed by knowledgable/seasoned people adept at diagnosing square baler problems. From there, they could listen, receive a cell phone picture or video of the troubles and walk the end user and/or dealer through the fix. This should be a daylight to dark crew during haying season.

Bill


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

I'm not hear to bash dealers I only want answers to the issues.

The one family dealer around me has been the best to work with. But they don't always sell what I want. Like new Holland! The bigger dealers don't seam to care about you. I even ask others there opinion and they don't really have any different opinions.

I need to move to Indiana!

So when you get time Mike can you answer my other questions? Thank you!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

leeave96 said:


> IMHO - given the relatively small numbers of square balers sold in relation to round balers, it's no wonder the dealers don't know squat about tying mechanisms or any other aspect of a new (or old) square baler - regardless of brand.
> 
> I feel, given the complexity of small square balers, manufacturers of small square balers (and I'd expect to see this from New Holland first) is a toll free technical help line to the factory, staffed by knowledgable/seasoned people adept at diagnosing square baler problems. From there, they could listen, receive a cell phone picture or video of the troubles and walk the end user and/or dealer through the fix. This should be a daylight to dark crew during haying season.
> 
> Bill


That would be a miracle come true. They probably don't sell enough to make it worth wile. I would love to see more of this. Good post!


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The cut twine will be on the bottom side of the twine as you look at the knot about 1/2' TO 1" back from the knot. It is normal to see a couple of strands cut on a new baler because of the sharp corners. You can take a file or emery cloth to smooth over the corners on the knife arm. In normal circumstances this will not cause a problem, but if you are packing tight bales and in your case also using a thrower it will cause more bales to break.

The twine from one bale being tied with the next bale was probably caused by the missed bale knot not being wiped off the bill hook. This can happen when twine balls change because the twine looses tension because the twine may have broke. The first few feet on a new ball of twine are not the best. The twine is twisted tight in the balls and I think this breaks some of the strands just as the twisting of the billhook weakens the twine at the base of the knot. It could also be caused by to much tension at the twine holder and the twine tearing when the billhook rotates. I would set your twine holder spring gap the same as the other side. That is the adjustment you were talking about in your post.

I will agree leeave96 that the experience on square balers is not out here. Even I have forgotten to much from lack of practice and old age.

A call in number would be nice, but the mfg's, not just NH would tell you that is what they have their dealers for. I like to help people or I would not post here, but it is hard to determine what the problem is. If Torch had not mentioned the bales were breaking on the way to the wagon, we would have went on a tangent and never corrected the problem.

It had been years since I looked at the operators manual on knotter failures. I always thought that they had an example of the twine breaking at the base of the knot. After looking though manuals from the last 50 years I see that is not the case.

When you have a knotter problem always determine if there is a loop on one end of the twine, a knot on one end of the twine or no loops at all. Also determine if the loop is on top of the bale or up the front.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

As much as I think 9000 sisal is comically ineffective, I agree there is possibly another issue. My personal hunch would be a "rough" spot on the knife arm. Several years ago I had a brand new wiper arm installed on my 315 and the next year I started experiencing Torch's symptoms. Fortunately, the dealer had a dedicated baler mechanic at the time (even more fortunately he retired and still helps people) and the first thing he asked was if the paint had worn off of the arm. I checked and it had. It did not feel one bit rough in that area but I sanded it anyway. Problem solved!

One note on bales breaking on the way out of the thrower. A one string bale will get pulled through just fine and appear to be breaking when thrown when it reality it was already broken or never tied (go find the twine and learn which) so unless they're breaking when they hit the wagon it isn't always obvious whether the action of the thrower is the reason or whether it was broken ahead without due diligence.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The twine always tells the tale of what happened. You just need to be able to interpret it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Mike I'll tell you this from my locale.....the "mega" dealer (not really mega but 5 stores I think) has given me the best service but it was not very good. My NH dealer is a family owned dealer and the service is not to great......ditto for Massey and Kubota, family but not to great on the service end. It would seem to me, in the days of "mega" dealers the way to differentiate ones self from the pack is to excel in customer service......sadly I don't think the mom and pops in my neck have done that. I always shop with price in mind, but when the finger hits the trigger service always weighs in heavily.

I too would appreciate a service line to call with problems be it round balers or square, heck fire, whatever equipment it might be.......with today's technology service should not be an issue, sadly I believe the ag companies are behind the times a bit with regards to the use of technology for the benefit of service.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

TORCH said:


> Mike the knots always failed the same way. The knot was formed on (as the book states twine #2)( Always a knot not a loop) So just to clarify, twine #1 goes over the top of bale. #2 twine comes up the back side and would be the short twine. Looking at top of bale standing in back of baler looking to front of tractor.
> 
> *After reading this I went to the operators manual to see what exactly was printed. And yes, you were accurate in the terminology the manual uses. The manual is calling for a knot on the #2 twine. I went back to prior model balers to see when the terminology changed. I had to go back 30 years before I found a somewhat better description but only because there was a drawing stating that there was a loop on the front twine. The heading still said knot, but the correct way to describe it is loop.*
> 
> ...


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

" If you were not using a thrower and the bales were slightly looser you probably would not have much of an issue."

Mike10, I think the reason that I'm suspicious that there is a burr or rough spot somewhere is that his bales don't need to be looser. He said they're only 25 pounds. And as much I keep repeating how junky sisal has become, I'm not sure it's bad enough to have that kind of failure rate in 25 pound bales without a little fraying coming from the knotter somewhere.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> " If you were not using a thrower and the bales were slightly looser you probably would not have much of an issue."
> 
> Mike10, I think the reason that I'm suspicious that there is a burr or rough spot somewhere is that his bales don't need to be looser. He said they're only 25 pounds. And as much I keep repeating how junky sisal has become, I'm not sure it's bad enough to have that kind of failure rate in 25 pound bales without a little fraying coming from the knotter somewhere.


I WILL HAVE TO LOOK BACK! THE BALES ARE STILL LIGHT BUT MAKING 45LBS NOT 25 LBS.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Yes, i agree there is probably some strands being cut which only exasperates the problems with 9000 ft twine. The 7200 twine gives Torch a little more breathing room if there are a few cut strands. Plastic would probably not have any cut strands, but that is only my guess.

My reference to looser was only when the twine balls switched because of the kinked twine and was in response to his question on the missed bales at ball switch..


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

TORCH said:


> I WILL HAVE TO LOOK BACK! THE BALES ARE STILL LIGHT BUT MAKING 45LBS NOT 25 LBS.


I wouldn't consider a 45# straw bale light when it's 34". That's a lot of pressure on the twine. Way more pressure than hay.

Now that we have that weight cleared up I now blame only the twine.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Lets go back to the suggestion that mfg's supply a phone number for troubleshooting a problem. It is very difficult to precisely say what the cause of a problem is when you are hundreds or thousands of miles away. There are so many nuances with square balers that the best you can do is guess. There is no substitute for on sight troubleshooting to get an accurate feel for what is happening. Nolt always practical so we will continue to guess.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Will check the travel of knife arms. Also will polish the area were the twine rubs will just do both sides.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

mike10 said:


> Lets go back to the suggestion that mfg's supply a phone number for troubleshooting a problem. It is very difficult to precisely say what the cause of a problem is when you are hundreds or thousands of miles away. There are so many nuances with square balers that the best you can do is guess. There is no substitute for on sight troubleshooting to get an accurate feel for what is happening. Nolt always practical so we will continue to guess.


I agree, but in the case of small square balers, telephone/online support is better than someone who doesn't know anything about a product. That seems to be the common theme in this case and others from what I'm hearing/reading......much better than someone telling you your balers out of warranty when you just bought it a few months ago because the dealer bought it in a "package" . much better than a big service call to come look at it......especially when the guy lookin at it has little experience for the aforementioned reasons. Mush better in terms of possibly gettin my ass back to making hay as quickly as possible, something the service dept has a hard time fully appreciating in a lot of cases.....


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

mike10 said:


> Lets go back to the suggestion that mfg's supply a phone number for troubleshooting a problem. It is very difficult to precisely say what the cause of a problem is when you are hundreds or thousands of miles away. There are so many nuances with square balers that the best you can do is guess. There is no substitute for on sight troubleshooting to get an accurate feel for what is happening. Nolt always practical so we will continue to guess.


Bale bandit does one hell of a job trouble shooting over the phone and I believe my bandit is much more complicated than my baler. But maybe it's just me. I will agree the best bet is for someone to be there hands on but it's not always a viable option.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Bale bandit does one hell of a job trouble shooting over the phone and I believe my bandit is much more complicated than my baler. But maybe it's just me. I will agree the best bet is for someone to be there hands on but it's not always a viable option.


 Yep the over the phone troubleshooting from the folks at bale bandit simply can not be beat. I called at 9pm on Memorial Day weekend and Owen took the time to walk me through my problem and get me back to baling the alfalfa.....talk about product support.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

As far as the twine issue discussed in this thread it seems to me that the simplest thing to do is to try some plastic twine and see if the issue is really the twine or the baler. I will say when I bought my NH 5070 it wouldn't tie sisal twine worth a darn. Tried some plastic twine and have never looked back.

It sounds like the selling dealer of Torch's baler has fallen way short in customer care.....they should have sent someone out as soon as possible free of charge. If they felt it was a twine problem the least they could have done was to send a few balls of plastic twine to try. Saying a new baler has run out of warranty before a year is up is a bunch of bs. If the baler was out of warranty because of some package the dealer purchased it in that should have been fully disclose to the customer at purchase along with a nice discount to make up for lack of warranty.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Bale bandit does one hell of a job trouble shooting over the phone and I believe my bandit is much more complicated than my baler. But maybe it's just me. I will agree the best bet is for someone to be there hands on but it's not always a viable option.


That is the beauty of being a small company, they are more responsive. Mechanically the Bale Bandit may be more complex in it's operation, but it is not subject to as many external influences that interfere with completing a successful tying of a bale..


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

FarmerCline said:


> As far as the twine issue discussed in this thread it seems to me that the simplest thing to do is to try some plastic twine and see if the issue is really the twine or the baler. I will say when I bought my NH 5070 it wouldn't tie sisal twine worth a darn. Tried some plastic twine and have never looked back.
> It sounds like the selling dealer of Torch's baler has fallen way short in customer care.....they should have sent someone out as soon as possible free of charge. If they felt it was a twine problem the least they could have done was to send a few balls of plastic twine to try. Saying a new baler has run out of warranty before a year is up is a bunch of bs. If the baler was out of warranty because of some package the dealer purchased it in that should have been fully disclose to the customer at purchase along with a nice discount to make up for lack of warranty.


Heck I'm purty sure the dealer sold him the twine he used the first time......how about that. Guess they stock sisal.....none of our dealers stock it. They should have given him a couple of balls if they didn't.......I had a dealer a few years ago charged me for two balls of twine after I bought a new round baler. I'm purty sure they won't be gettin anymore business from me......I prefer to pay it and log it into hard drive for future reference.......idiots I tell ya.....momma called that "biting the hand that feeds you" this hand won't be throwing any meat and potatos their way. All for two balls of twine in a 21 k $ twine tie baler......not sure who was more of the idiot, them or me


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

mike10 said:


> That is the beauty of being a small company, they are more responsive. Mechanically the Bale Bandit may be more complex in it's operation, but it is not subject to as many external influences that interfere with completing a successful tying of a bale..


They have also utilized technology to be able to troubleshoot a problem via Internet connections.......we don't have to wait for a dealer to come out, we have hay to get up!


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## Uphayman (Oct 31, 2014)

I can relate exactly. Big green dealer lost all my business over $1.84. Long story ,anywho's......a half a million $ in machine purchases later, elsewhere, they still are clueless. Sometimes the best revenge ,is not letting them know what their problem was so as to lose my business. Makes it tough to correct.

I'm not in their league now anyways ,as I don't buy new tractors, combines, self propelled whatever on a monthly basis. Rant over......


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

TORCH said:


> That would be a miracle come true. They probably don't sell enough to make it worth wile. I would love to see more of this. Good post!


Evidently they make enough balers to keep a production line in a factory open, including covering all the cost and overhead that comes with it. Maybe instead of hiring another cost analyst or VP of "fill in the blank" (and if you work in bean counting driven industry you know exactly what I'm talking about) or initiating another committee to solve a problem a good engineer could tackle on their own, etc. - I think one or two persons on a hot line would be a benefit to the end user, the dealer and - you know what? I bought a New Holland square baler and got my issue fixed over the phone/internet pronto without the hassle of a dealer tech that above all else won't just say, "I don't know" - and from that phone/internet experience, I'd buy or recommend their product.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

mike10 said:


> A call in number would be nice, but the mfg's, not just NH would tell you that is what they have their dealers for.


And there is the paradox.

My guess all manner of alarms go off at these OEMs if a customer would call with a problem. Damn the person who took that call, escort them out of the building. WE HAVE DEALERS to deal with the field hands. The dealer says, screw the field hands or better yet, charge them $80 or more per hour, plus mileage, to fix a problem we don't even know how to fix. So while we are floundering, reading the manual and parts replacing (vs fixing), we're charging full rate.

There ought to be a better way to do business. Times have changed. Long gone are the small family dealers that made time, even after hours and on weekends, to keep a hay maker going. The upside of this change is where one void is created, i.e. demise of the small family dealer, something else fills its place. IMHO - hay equipment manufacturers can do everyone a favor and embrace technology, phone, interactive Internet, etc and solve field problems with the customer painlessly and with minimal expense.

I would also say that mike10 is what is RIGHT with the industry. Three cheers for his help on Haytalk.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

What you want you will never see. It would be nice if you could log in and post a question and get a reply, but a phone call will never happen. How long are you willing to sit on hold before someone can get to you. In December you can probably get some quick service, but come May and June forget it.

Even the dealers can not call in for help, it is all handled through the internet. We have immediate access to information and many times that will answer our questions but if the answer is not there, then we have to submit the question. Generally the time for response is acceptable, but still too long to hang on the phone. Unit down requests get priority.

There is also a liability issue for these companies in providing information to customers, whether it be mechanical or physical harm that may be done.

We have local area service people from the company, but there is just too much and varied equipment out there for them to know everything especially the nuances of each machine. In many cases you are dealing with young people who have no knowledge of older equipment.

I hate the be the bearer of bad news, but it is only going to get worse unless you run the latest tractors and equipment. The large dealers have no time for the small operator.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> Heck I'm purty sure the dealer sold him the twine he used the first time......how about that. Guess they stock sisal.....none of our dealers stock it. They should have given him a couple of balls if they didn't.......I had a dealer a few years ago charged me for two balls of twine after I bought a new round baler. I'm purty sure they won't be gettin anymore business from me......I prefer to pay it and log it into hard drive for future reference.......idiots I tell ya.....momma called that "biting the hand that feeds you" this hand won't be throwing any meat and potatos their way. All for two balls of twine in a 21 k $ twine tie baler......not sure who was more of the idiot, them or me


You are right they gave me two packages of sisal. They did not charge me they were probably grateful to find some sucker to give it to. They were the ones putting on thrower. I cant remember if it was 9000 or 7200. But they never mad mention about 9000 is to weak to run with thrower.

I checked the arm for burrs or sharp edges. Nothing I found all smooth. Also checked stroke clearance from end of bill hook. The 3/8 number looks good. Going to run out the last of the 7200 and put in the 7200 plastic.

Going to look at the plastic twine ball in the center were the twine starts. If it is all twisted like the sisal always is going to pull out 5 or 10 feet to get to better area.

What are you all doing for this issue? Just tie it into the next ball or pull out some till it looks better and just waist 10 feet or so. To prevent problems in the field?

I had filled the twine box full of 9000 and now cant take back. What another expense. Maybe I can find someone who can still use the 9000.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I was sacrificing a few feet at the start of the twine when I was running sisal but I've been using every bit of the plastic unless it somehow seems even more gnarled than usual.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

I agree 100% the manufactures should provide better information to the end user. They have classes to train dealers. Why not get the training on video then they can train dealers and also provide end users with the same information. Killing two birds with one stone. Just go to website on your machine and get all the info. Just like we all have to do to get so many of the user manuals. Because they don't want to pay to print out the info. I'm sure it has nothing to do with saving trees!
Ok the argument about the cost of training information! Ya your right but you do it one time and it is out there for all of our lifetimes and also for the kids. Look at how long the small square balers been around. They still work pretty much the same but better updates for the improvements. How long would it really take to do an update on a revision? Then add it to the computer file. Someone at the factory already knows all about the change. Pass on the information daaaaaaa!
Look at all the people who would just look at information at dinner time and fix the next day before hitting the field. Just look at all the less calls the dealer would get. I'm finding some of them don't care enough to even call back. They don't have in my case hay down. That we count on for income to keep buying the high priced equipment. Than I have to explain to my customers sorry for the broken bales in the wagons. The plus side for them I don't charge for broken bales. So I end up losing more $$$$

Thanks to Mike10 and all others and this forum. Who all come together and help one another out.
Gee if the dealers provided superior help lines. Maybe this type of forum would not have come about? I AM GLAD IT DID GREAT PLACE FOE ALL TO SHARE!


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

One of the fellows who was helping here used to do that - pull a bunch of twine from the center of the ball cause it was 'loose'. He'd cut it off, call it junk and throw it on the ground. Turns out that sometimes each strand of the plastic twine is loose from the one next to it, but when it's under pressure it's fine. If I see a defect in the 1st few inches I'll cut it off, other wise I tie the new to the old with as little cutoff as possible.

Rodney


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I do the same as hitech and Rodney, I tie to the end provided unless it's buggered up, then I'll cut off a few inches......plastic ain't foolproof however, had a ball last year that was "twisted" had to discard it.....


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Photos this twine is from the Case IH Dealer.
9000 that was giving me grief.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I do not see any cut strands and when the twine breaks cleanly at the base of the knot like most of your photos show, that is because the twine has reached it's breaking point. A couple of the photos which show some stringing at the bottom of the knot could have been cause by some strands being cut, but I do not think that is the cause because the strands are all different length. When the strands are cut there are several strands the same length and not varied like what is shown in your photos.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Although twine is given a tensile strength rating that is for the twine tself not the knot strength.

From the photographs you have posted, I agree 100% with mike 10. The failure is at the base of the knot and in essence the crossover portion of the twine in the knot has cut the twine exiting the knot.

Whenever a knot is tied in twine or rope the fail strength of the twine at the knot is considerably reduced. In fact according to NH when they placed twine strength ratings and knot strength on the plastic twine marketed in Australia the twine strength was rated at 150KG (330lbs) breaking strain and the knot strength at 74 kg (174 lbs) a reduction of slightly more than 50%.

Different knots have differing effects on twine strength. The forces at work in a knot include shearing, chafing or robbing and crushing. These forces are applied unevenly to different parts of the twine. The sharper the angle of direction change and the higher compression and greater chafing action as pulled tight, in the knot the greater the reduction in strength. Factors at work here for example include how the knot is tied andante rate at which it is loaded and the number degree and frequency of loadings.

In sailing, rescue and climbing there has been a great deal of work done to research differing knot strengths and differing materials. Here is a link to research results for some common knots/rope joints for sailing.

www.ne*ropes*.com/Resources/sail_reprint.pdf

Leaving out splice joints the knot strength reductio ranged from 22% to 68% across the differing knots and materials. Assuming that the knot strength reduction in sisal is the same as NH plastic twine then the base of your knot has only 50% of the strength of the sisal itself.

When baling straw it is very deceptive the strain on the twine caused by the light springy material, and very easy to exceed the twine knot strength. I have baled thousands of wheat, oat, pea, and lupin straw bales. Baling straw is a pita when it comes to knotter problems and twine failures. A twine disc holder that bales thousands of hay bales can be under tensioned when changing to straw simply because of the greater strain on the twine with springy tight packed though light straw.

Put simply IMHO:

Poor quality sisal for straw is a failure at the knot, there would appear to be nothing wrong with the BC 5070 knotter.

I guess just another way of saying what Mike 10 has said.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I didn't realize it until today, when found a local out-of-the-way supplier for farm-related junk, that I had been comparing apples and oranges with twine by buying "9000" or "7200" etc... and assuming the knot would be lower with more footage per spool.
This "store" carried Tytan string in 9600 and 7200; the 9600 was $32.xx and the 7200 was $25.xx.
As I always run 9000 (and mostly sisal and some poly- both with 130# KS) and have been having a few bale-breaking problems that are associated with a broken knot in both the sisal and poly.
...anyway, I was interested in the trying the 7200 and asked about it's knot strength (it's a warehouse kind-of place and everything is not on display) and was told it was 170#. I know my poly (either Orangeline or Country Road) is 9000/130. Curious, I asked about their 9600 knot strength and was told it was the same as the 7200...170#.  
I was in disbelief and was led to the warehouse, and sure'nuff both the 9600 and 7200 were 170# knot strength. I looked at the weights of both and the 9600 was 9.xx kg and the 7200 was 6.xx kg. :huh: 
The best I could determine, the 9600 and 7200 were the same exact twine; just a 1/3 more in the 9600.
If you did not have the 9600 and the 7200 side by side, you probably would not notice the difference in spool size.

So, my 9000 has only 76% of the knot strength of the 9600---or the 9600 is 1.3x stronger than the 9000.
I may be the last person on the planet to realize that 7200 would not be heavier that 9600 across-the-board, as I always associated a longer spool with thinner and therefore a lower knot-strength twine. I thought I would share this in case there is another cave dweller such as I, since there has been this recent discussion related to using 7200 in this thread.

I walked out with a new Delmhorst and a kernel of knowledge!!

73, Mark


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Mark, you piqued my interest with your post about Tytan string.

Not a brand we get here and my first question was : Is it poly or sisal?

I went for mr Google and what a revelation ! The link I called up is:

*tytan*intl.info/

Tytan say it is poly, or plastic as many in the US call it, but the most revealing was the table set out there and in summary it is :

Length Knot strength Tubes per Bale

9000 130 2

7200 170 2

9600 170 2

9500 170 1

10000 190 2

If the tube would fit in the baler's twine box why would you not go for the extra length extra strength 10000 foot tube?

I can se why you would think shorter length in the tube would in all probability be stronger twine. Just meant to confuse logical minded farmers.

NH with the twine marketed here increased the tube size (and length plus price of course) some years ago. At the same time NH stopped printing the twine strength and knot performance on the wrapper.

The only change for me was that the old tubes could be double decked in the twine box so plenty of twine on board for the long days at a contract job. The bigger tubes if double decked mant the lid would not close and twine path through the lid mounted eyelets was not good so only practical to carry single tubes in the twine box.

I have found it is false economy to buy the cheaper per length lower strength twine. After all it costs me just as much to grow a bale that stays together and that my customer pays for, as a bale that is busted and left on the ground. Not many bales have to be broken to make up for the difference in twine purchase price.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Coondle said:


> Mark, you piqued my interest with your post about Tytan string.
> 
> Not a brand we get here and my first question was : Is it poly or sisal?
> 
> ...


Yes sir, the twine of which I made mention was the Poly.
Even looking at the chart above, it is also further confusing to me... they offer 9600 in a two-spool package, then they leave 100' off of a spool and offer IT in a single spool package????



Coondle said:


> I can se why you would think shorter length in the tube would in all probability be stronger twine. Just meant to confuse logical minded farmers.
> 
> I have found it is false economy to buy the cheaper per length lower strength twine. After all it costs me just as much to grow a bale that stays together and that my customer pays for, as a bale that is busted and left on the ground. Not many bales have to be broken to make up for the difference in twine purchase price.


Yes, all the old logic is out of the window; especially on sisal which may or may not have knot strength printed on the package as of late. I use Brazilian Gold and/or Country Road sisal; the Gold still says 130# knot strength and the Country Road says "9000 FT/#350" which I know is DEFINATELY NOT referring to a 350# knot strength as it is weaker/less quality than the Gold.

You said a mouthful on the "cost" side of the equation. Using 9000 to bale grass hay, I tend to bale tight-as-practical and start with 20 turns on my tension. Often, I pop a bale soon after I start, then back off the tension @3 turns. I don't mind the first broken bale, because I expect for that one to happen. After that, the "cost" starts to eat me up. It's not necessarily a dollar/cents cost, but a time/blood pressure/danger cost as I don't leave a broken bale in the field. Instead, I carefully climb off the tractor with the PTO spinning (Danger!!!) and go the the back of the baler, carry the broken bale (an armful at a time) back to the front of the baler and throw it back in the baler and repeat until all the broken bale is fed back into the baler. If I didn't notice the broken bale soon enough, I get the pleasure of digging it out of the accumulator also. Then I inspect to ascertain the reason for the broken bale and let off more tension if determined. Lastly I carefully climb my itchy/hay chaff-covered/sweaty/disgruntled self back onto the tractor (the pto still spinning). It's not too bad baling with the Kubota as the tractor is dismounted from the front; the 460 is far more dangerous as the operator platform is accessed from the rear.
Last year, broken bales did not bother me NEARLY as much because I was riding the wagon and would notice it while it was still on the chute. I would holler at he tractor driver, stop, and I could retie the bale before it made a mess. Rarely did a bale ever need to be re-fed or slow me down too much. Heck, I even WELCOMED a broken string from time to time...it gave me a few moments to rest and drink a slug of water without it looking like the ol' man was needing a break.  With the addition of an accumulator this year, it's a mess every single time there is a broken bale. 

73, Mark


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Here is my 2 cents on the twine - YMMV.....

IMHO, the rational (these days) for sisal 7200 twine is not necessarily knot strength or even twine break strength (on the face of it). There is so much crap sisal twine out there and with it comes occasional thin spots. If you are going to have thin spots, probably better on 7200 than 9000 twine.

I've been lucky with 9000 twine - I guess. This is 9000 twine that is not from New Holland either. An occasional broken bale, but all in all have been able to make tight enough bales with 9000 that my kids complain - it's hard to get their fingers under the twine to lift it - LOL!

I like sisal as it's biodegradable. However, if we ever start trimming fluff/cost from our operation, plastic twine at half the cost of sisal will be on the table.

Bill


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

The latest up date. Finished using up the 7200 sisal and had one broken in flight to wagon. The plastic twine both changed with out any problems. Baled up around 250 so far with out any problems. Will finish fields today. Wow is it nice to not have all the broken bales in wagon to deal with.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

That is great news Torch that your bale beakage problems seem to have resolved. The bill hooks on the 5070 would be designed for plastic so I am not surprised the change to plastic was without incident.

Thanks to you raising the issue, and the HT community I think many will have found out a lot about the strength of different twines.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Did not have much left to finish today. Not quite 300 bales but I must say it has been a lot different. Since the plastic twine I have had no problems at all.

I ask myself why in the world did the selling dealer and local dealer. Not make any mention about the 9000 sisal I told them I was using. Not to mention that's what they gave me. When I picked up bailer.

Wow it finely is working after a year of nothing but major problems.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

There could be several reasons the dealer did not point you in the right direction. Due to the poor description in the troubleshooting section of the operators manual, mentioning knot when it should have been loop, you were led down the wrong path. This in turn probably led you to lead the dealer down the wrong path.

Experience, there is no substitute for experience. I don't know about your area, but around here square balers are seldom used so I do not get the practice I used to in the past. When I first started I spent all summer on square baler problems. Too many of us old farts are gong by the wayside taking alot of knowledge with us. Because of that, I have started documenting some of the repairs I do, how too tutorials, and plan to start a thread on Haytalk sometime in the future so at least some of my knowledge is not lost when I retire or go to my reward.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Mike 10, you are a legend with encyclopaedic knowledge of NH gear including the mysteries of small square balers.

With the reduction in small baler numbers and the ageing of trained personnel like you, the lack of training for young people in the intricacies of machine repair, knotters in particular are becoming an enigma wrapped in a puzzle.

My tradesman brother laments the lack of fitting and diagnostic skills in mechanics. He claims too many mechanics are now merely component replacers. If a computer cannot provide a diagnosis the process is to replace components one by one until the problem is solved. The machine owner paying for every replacement including for those not needed.

The lack of small balers around here means that there are very very few mechanics that have a clue about them. I know of only three within an hour's drive of me with knowledge base better than a dartboard. One of them is now retired and turns 76 in 2 day's time. So knowledge is thinning fast locally.

I look forward to reading your tutorials.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Coondle, early on I was a parts replacer also. After many years, I knew I reached the pinnacle of knotter repair when I could repair the knotters with a minimum of parts used. It is the natural progression of learning.

The problem today for dealerships is retaining qualified help. There are too many opportunities for the young people to move on, which is good for them, but bad for the dealer.

In the 44 years I have been doing this you do learn some things, but lately I think I am forgetting more then what I am learning especially on square balers.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Mike 10

You were a huge part in helping me get to the bottom of my baler issues. I cant thank you enough! Thank you Thank you Thank you!

You don't know how much stress you took away when my baler started performing like it should. It was almost fun to bale when I can fill a wagon with out any broken bales.

I will stick to plastic from now on.

I hope a lot of others find this post and can learn from all the info hear!

If anyone can use the sisal twine 9000 in a different type baler. Live close to Iron Ridge Wisconsin. I Have 8 Balls of twine.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Glad to have helped. Continued good luck.


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