# Must disturb soil every 4 years or so?



## lcjaynes (Jul 25, 2014)

So I've heard a few presenters lately at conferences say it's a good idea to disturb the soil every 4 years or so even if you're a no-till operator, to keep nutrients from stratifying in the top few inches of soil, and help them incorporate into the deeper soil profile.

If you're a no-till operation, what are your thoughts on that?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

That's what worms are for.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Something I like about the application of this mushroom soil Im using is others who use it say it brings worms up. Lowers the need to open up mechanically.
Only time will tell.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

My vote is worms and cover crops. Don't like tillage unless absolutely necessary!


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Semi on topic, field has been fallow any where from 20 to 40 years depending on who you ask would you no till a grass alfalfa mix into it, plow it up and plant oats then seed with grass alfalfa mix or something else?? there is about 150 acres like this.....


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Cannot speak for all the rented ground. But the 400 acres we own have not seen any tillage for 25 years and some select fields have been in notill for 40 years . .Cover Crops are the key to making it work. .


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I think there is some pont to it. Look at nature. Every so often a spot is worked up completely. Than some of the species we call weeds start to grow. Most of them have deep roots or special abilities to make nutrients more available to the next species that move in and so on till the grasses come back. But the key is small spots worked up for a short time only. Like worked today. Seed tomorrow.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

There are vertical tillage tools being used to incorporate residual and manure on just the top inches. When use correctly you can keep your no-till classification on HEL ground for your conservation plan. We have not done this yet .we may try it in the future.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Never heard of such a thing before . What nutrients are these presenters talking about? The top 1/4" of soil has been the must nutrient-rich part of soil since the beginning of time.

Here's an example of tillage that I like to give to people: Take that conference room in which the presenter is talking....it's neatly filled with chairs and people and organized nicely. Now, flip that room completely over. Now, what does the room look like? That's what kind of damage tillage does to soil structure between all of the organic matter, earthworms, bacteria, protozoa, and simple physical structure of soil (porosity and infiltration characteristics). Just my .02


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> There are vertical tillage tools being used to incorporate residual and manure on just the top inches. When use correctly you can keep your no-till classification on HEL ground for your conservation plan. We have not done this yet .we may try it in the future.


I wanted to do something like this. Basically, I was going to aerate the fields then apply compost. Compost would drop into the holes. That way there is little disturbance, air and compost get into holes.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

endrow said:


> There are vertical tillage tools being used to incorporate residual and manure on just the top inches. When use correctly you can keep your no-till classification on HEL ground for your conservation plan. We have not done this yet .we may try it in the future.


I would like to hear the reasoning with the Four year till thing . Obviouslydifferent soil types in different areas presents different challenges


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

The other key is rotation. Midwest has been seeing guys go corn on corn for multiple years the last few years, so I could see where some sort of soil disturbance would be needed. If you aren't willing to rotate and use cover crops, you probably need to re-consider no-till for your operation.

Most true no-tillers I know sold every scrap of tillage equipment they owned because they found themselves wanting to hook up and work some groud "since they have it sitting around". Some of them compared it to kicking a drug habit.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tillage is very addicting.....my pacification with tillage is such that now I use a rotary tiller when planting new grass seed after a burn down.....only works up the top 2 inches of soil and makes a great seed bed that is readily firmed up with a brillion packer and seeder. The larger tillers are kinda pricey though.

Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

How big of a tiller do you use?


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

I always thought a power tillerwould be a hell of a way to prep a seedbed.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

I was actually talking with a buddy today about tilling 11 acres I plan on putting alfalfa on, should leave a really nice seed bed after running the cultipacker across it.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

deadmoose said:


> How big of a tiller do you use?


8'.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol said:


> 8'.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Old Guy down the road from me does that. Runs a nice 8' tiller behind a 70HP case IH, seeds, then runs cultipacker.
I want to start doing the same, but I'm too scared Im gonna get mud in somebodys yard or screw something else up!!! lol


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## robert23239 (May 10, 2009)

I think when land has sat for many years it may have to be worked to get it opened up. In my experience the best land I have put back into production is land with many small trees. Once the small sapling were clearef the soil was nice and ready to plant. 
I have also put back into productio old hay ground that sat for many years and was cut for hay with no inputs . Lots of weeds, thistles and some bare spots . It felt very compacted, plowed up part of it plant alfalfa and on its 4th year doing great . The other section I never plowed and I seem to struggle with it . Only hit it with a disk , beans did ok but not good . The rye grass did ok , no tilled after beans but followed with oats and didn't turn out so good . 
If had a second chance I would plow it all followed with a cover crop or alfalfa. Would crimp the cover crop and plant right into it .


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

aawhite said:


> I always thought a power tillerwould be a hell of a way to prep a seedbed.


If you don't have rock, muddy conditions or tree roots, a tiller does a great job. Last year I tilled a small area (little over 2 acres) about 6-8 inches deep. I used a 6 ft. reverse direction tiller, and it took all 50 HP from my tractor traveling slowly in low range to get it done. I directly seeded alfalfa on this loose seed bed and then rolled it 2-3 times with a seed bed roller. The germination was a very high percentage. I was told and read that you must have firm ground with alfalfa seed, but I found this to be totally untrue. The soil was fluffed up big time. You can broadcast in loose soil and roll the seed in - the seed depth was about a quarter to a half inch and the field was very firm when I finished, giving good seed to soil contact. I not only "disturbed" the soil, I tore the hell out of it.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

An occasional rock is not too bad...but a rock pile would not be doable. Tree roots along fencelines are the worst for me. I till about 2" deep most of the time so the hp requirements are not as demanding as it would be on a deep till and I can move along slightly faster. I also pull two treated round 6 inch posts that have been bolted side by side behind the tiller attached to the rear door/leveler. It really smooths out any high spots from moving along at a quicker pace.

Regards, Mike


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

We have begun adopting a blend of No-till and Strip till. No till the beans and small grains, strip till the corn. Definitely a learning curve associated with it after eons of recreational tillage around here...


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

There was an earlier reference to using vertical tillage and staying in compliance with your conservation plan. Make sure to check wtih your county agent. USDA has been releasing a lot of statements that vertical tilalge is NOT allowed in a conservation plan calling for no-till, and will knock you out of compliance. I've seen 4 relesases from different states so far while researching vertical tillage in continuous wheat.


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## cdhayman (Jan 25, 2011)

We've tried doing some no-till on hay ground, and initially we thought it would work great. We got a great stand of alfalfa into an older grass field. But, there was too much compaction and it did not yield worth a darn. I think that is the story for the western states. The soil is different than back east, and it just needs to be worked. That's why no-till hasn't really taken off out here. The best alfalfa we ever raise is when we plow in the fertilizer. We've had 10 ton yield in the past by doing so. We would be crazy to do anything different


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

cdhayman said:


> We've tried doing some no-till on hay ground, and initially we thought it would work great. We got a great stand of alfalfa into an older grass field. But, there was too much compaction and it did not yield worth a darn. I think that is the story for the western states. The soil is different than back east, and it just needs to be worked. That's why no-till hasn't really taken off out here. The best alfalfa we ever raise is when we plow in the fertilizer. We've had 10 ton yield in the past by doing so. We would be crazy to do anything different


Is it the fault of the western soil that it's compacted or the people driving on it possibly at less than ideal times?


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

On Dad's place the sandy soil is always trying to turn into sand stone. Just from the rain alone. Could have nothing on it for 10-15 years and 4 inches down its hard like stand stone. Hard enough the water will not even work its way through! Some soils don't need to be driven on to get hard.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

The is a cut and paste from an earlier post I made:

"For 200 million years, animals have stomped down soils and compacted them. My bet is that soil compaction form these trillions of animals is at least a million times more that of man-made equipment. In P.S.I. of compacting force, a bison hoof is far more compacting than a tractor tire. Prior to Columbus landing in America, it is estimated that 60 million bison roamed the North American continent. The average life-span of a bison is about 15 years. Since the last ice age, that would equate to at least 600 generations of bison which would equate to 36 billion bison hammering the soils."

The issue of soil compaction is an environmentalist issue. The propaganda is slowly pouring out year after year, and soon this will be another manufactured crisis. Laws will be passed about tire width, when you can drive your tractor, etc. We all may need to fill out a permit each time we use our tractors. Another possibility is that we will need to keep logs on our tractor use, with big fines for noncompliance.

From my book, *The Biology of Human Freedom*:

"The real underlying goal of the environmentalist movement, a goal that even the great majority of environmentalists do not understand, is:

Environmentalism is designed to obstruct and obliterate the naturally occurring drive for humans to own and direct the use of property.

Without a connection to property, you will feel an impotence towards the world. You will feel obligated toward a "hands off" approach to reality. You will be isolated from your nature. Your nature is to manipulate the materials of nature, to create, to engage the physical world. Environmentalism tricks you into believing your nature is evil, in that, everything you do to act on physical reality is wrong, that is, if it does not conform to their rules. Of course, their rules will continually change, until you are completely powerless.

According to the environmentalists, everything you own has an impact on the environment. You cannot discard a piece of paper, fertilize your lawn, grow your own food, drive your car, flush your toilet, or heat your house without some law or government mandate to pigeonhole you into submission. It will get worse, until your every action will be directed by government.

"...You only own something when you can direct its use. If the government tells you how to mow your lawn, you do not own your lawn. You are nothing more than a caretaker of the lawn that is owned by the government. With the pretense of protecting the environment, governments are seizing control of everything you own. Ownership implies control. If you can't direct and control your property's use, then "ownership" is just another hoax perpetuated by the intraspecies parasites."


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## cdhayman (Jan 25, 2011)

I guess I should have been more clear. I'm not saying all the western soil is compacted. It can be compacted, but we know how to deal with it. Thanks for that bit Hog. Western soil is very different than anything further east. What works out there will not work here


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

cdhayman said:


> Western soil is very different than anything further east.


That would be SOME Western soil....



cdhayman said:


> What works out there will not work here


Sometimes that is the case.

Regards, Mike


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

The title of this topic, "Must disturb soil every four years or so." is disturbing in itself. Contained in the question is a built-in condemnation. Just as easily, the title could have have been:* "Should we lovingly massage our soils from time to time?" *


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

cdhayman said:


> We've tried doing some no-till on hay ground, and initially we thought it would work great. We got a great stand of alfalfa into an older grass field. But, there was too much compaction and it did not yield worth a darn. I think that is the story for the western states. The soil is different than back east, and it just needs to be worked. That's why no-till hasn't really taken off out here. The best alfalfa we ever raise is when we plow in the fertilizer. We've had 10 ton yield in the past by doing so. We would be crazy to do anything different


I fully agree with cdhayman. I've seen a lot of guys on here say that alfalfa will break up compaction. HERE I haven't seen that happen yet. In fact if planting alfalfa in a field that hasn't seen a ripper or a plow for years that alfalfa will see far less production. Especially if that ground has been farmed with large haying equipment in previous years. Also the trend seems to be here to shut off irrigation then the next day cut hay. That leads to compaction. I like to wait a week or more before hay operations after moisture, but that is me. I have a 140 acre field that I'm going to rip this fall to about 12 inches. I'm confident it will do wonders for hay production. It hasn't been plowed in years. We don't have the runoff issues here that maybe to the east there is where top soil leaves the farm if tilled. Here many corn farmers till every few years. The one pass rippers, discs and the like are a big thing now. Many every year depending on their ground. The ground can vary dramatically here from farm to farm.

We have one grass hay field that is at least 40 years old. Grows great. No need to deep till it. But the 140 acre field I'm going to rip this fall is different soil and it will compact much easier and there is no way you could not till it for 40 years and keep good production.

The thing I don't like about the till or no till debate is that many people think it's wrong to till anything and others disagree and say you always need to till. It's all in what soil you have in your fields and your local climate. The thing about hay farming is that it can be the best of both.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

When those bison were around the great plains layed undisturbed, didn't get all those feet of topsoil from plowing before the plow was ever invented.

Prairie soils have different micro organisms in it than a woods or forest soil, the ones that live in a woods soil their byproduct is almost like glue which is why our clays here in the east can be so sticky.

It's very easy on some soils to be on them when you shouldn't be.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

It is unfortunate that some soil needs to be tilled from time to time we only truly enjoyed the money savings of notill when we no longer needed to own or maintain the tractors and equipment we used for tillage . For us that was a Huge savings . Not to mention the savings in time by not tilling ....... Also here back east in these soils we found it was tillage that was CAUSING Compaction. Notill with cover crops provides a much firmer base to drive tractors across and yet that firmer base in notill because of its increased organic mater content holds and absorbs water better than tilled soil. Where notill shines brightest if you plow 12 inches and drive a tractor across the tilled ground at that point you will be compacting the soil below 12 inches a ripper wont reach.......... It takes 3 years to build up an organic mater base to make notill work properly . Here I would not want to wreck that by tilling every 4 years . The true benefit is keeping soil in place and runoff.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

endrow said:


> It is unfortunate that some soil needs to be tilled from time to time we only truly enjoyed the money savings of notill when we no longer needed to own or maintain the tractors and equipment we used for tillage . For us that was a Huge savings . Not to mention the savings in time by not tilling ....... Also here back east in these soils we found it was tillage that was CAUSING Compaction. Notill with cover crops provides a much firmer base to drive tractors across and yet that firmer base in notill because of its increased organic mater content holds and absorbs water better than tilled soil. Where notill shines brightest if you plow 12 inches and drive a tractor across the tilled ground at that point you will be compacting the soil below 12 inches a ripper wont reach.......... It takes 3 years to build up an organic mater base to make notill work properly . Here I would not want to wreck that by tilling every 4 years . The true benefit is keeping soil in place and runoff.


I've been reading a lot on this subject and really like what I see with the covercrop and no till. Going to try and incorporate tillage radishes into my existing hay fields to break up compaction and pull nutrients from below to cut back on fertilizer. The only fields I will need to plow will be the ones with ruts. It is going to be a interesting experiment.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

IH 1586 said:


> I've been reading a lot on this subject and really like what I see with the covercrop and no till. Going to try and incorporate tillage radishes into my existing hay fields to break up compaction and pull nutrients from below to cut back on fertilizer. The only fields I will need to plow will be the ones with ruts. It is going to be a interesting experiment.


I'd try them first in a field you might be considering reseeding. They have the potential to smother surrounding plants.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

8350HiTech said:


> I'd try them first in a field you might be considering reseeding. They have the potential to smother surrounding plants.


Recommended planting rate is 6-10 lbs. to the acre. We are going with 2 lbs. to the acre. Also may take them off as baleage if the weather cooperates during Sept. and Oct. If it looks questionable could always run through with a brush hog. It is just an experiment this year.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I happen to agree with you, except I like to plow every 5 or 6 years to smooth out this heavy high shrink clay soil. Other wise we end up with pot holes, hog wallows, or buffalo wallows. That or use only 150 hp 4 wheel drive tractor with duals, front and back, to stay in the seat.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

IH 1586 said:


> I've been reading a lot on this subject and really like what I see with the covercrop and no till. Going to try and incorporate tillage radishes into my existing hay fields to break up compaction and pull nutrients from below to cut back on fertilizer. The only fields I will need to plow will be the ones with ruts. It is going to be a interesting experiment.


I've been using radishes for about 5 yrs now put them in fields that have been cut for corn silage and in after wheat has been cut.. 2 lbs goes along way.. I wait until the ground is froze then turn cows out on them.. those cows go nuts over them very high in sugar and energy those cows will rut and paw though a foot of snow to get to them. I do own a disk it would be a 2 day adventure just to get it out.. it is there for emergency use only.I despise tillage tools less it is reclaim ground , cover crops and worms are a farmer's best friend in my opinion.at least in this part of the country. all this is JMO I don't ever recall reading about a caveman harnessing up a dinosaur to a plow and disk and there was grass growing back then..look what the plow did to the plains in the 1930's I've been no tilling for 15 yrs now and if I had to go back to tillage practices I would seed the whole farm to grass and run more cows, the window of opportunity is smaller to plant when you no till but I'am not trying to farm the whole St. either this is just what I think works best for me


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

snowball said:


> I've been using radishes for about 5 yrs now put them in fields that have been cut for corn silage and in after wheat has been cut.. 2 lbs goes along way.. I wait until the ground is froze then turn cows out on them.. those cows go nuts over them very high in sugar and energy those cows will rut and paw though a foot of snow to get to them. I do own a disk it would be a 2 day adventure just to get it out.. it is there for emergency use only.I despise tillage tools less it is reclaim ground , cover crops and worms are a farmer's best friend in my opinion.at least in this part of the country. all this is JMO I don't ever recall reading about a caveman harnessing up a dinosaur to a plow and disk and there was grass growing back then..look what the plow did to the plains in the 1930's I've been no tilling for 15 yrs now and if I had to go back to tillage practices I would seed the whole farm to grass and run more cows, the window of opportunity is smaller to plant when you no till but I'am not trying to farm the whole St. either this is just what I think works best for me


Most of the people here do things the way its always been done. The only improvements really is the use of chisel plows instead of turning it over. I had a field beside my house that had awesome hay on it. Once got 40 4x5 round bales of of it and its 5 acres. Ruined it when I built my shop. Pushed the trees to the other end of it and had to plow it. That was the blackest dirt I had ever seen. Made me sick when I saw it and from that point on I could see the benefit of not plowing it.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Did any of the presneters at the conference mention the reason for tillage every 4 years?

There are alternatives to stirring the ground with a steel tool.

It has been mentioned that worms will do the job for you.

No mention of cover cropping or using "tillage" vegitation. There are " tillage Radishes " for one.

With a high shrink clay the soil may just do all the tillage you need. In a dry year I have stuck a 15 foot measuring tape down a 2 inch wide crack and not found bottom. With cracks loike those we can take a 5 inch plus rain event with zero run off. With the cracks closed water will run off with under an inch of rain.

My reasoning for tillage is to smooth and level the soil surface for running equipment. With my size equipment I need to smooth my hay fields considerably in 4 or fewer years. Steel will close the worm holes and root channels facilitating more than enough run off to full all the stock ponds in the county.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

A tractor tire or bison hoof compacts the soil vertically by packing it down. Big rooted crops like radish and alfalfa compact the soil horizontally by pushing the soil sideways. The way to push soil upwards so that compaction is reduced, it to employ earthworms to move the soil upwards. Most soils will grow many earthworms if the Ph is brought to a neutral state, that is around 7.


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