# Older Self Propelled haybine/swathers



## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I have a couple people asking if I want to custom do their hay. I would be happy to but I have a full time job and I don't know if there would be enough daylight to get everything cut and raked. I have a 9' gehl haybine and old Oliver rollerbar rake. We cut alfalfa/grass mix and meadow hay as well.
So I was looking at larger haybines that would get things cut faster and I have ran across some older but decent looking self propelled machines. Definitely need a conditioner on it. Mainly NH and Hesston such as these...

http://stcloud.craigslist.org/grd/4492262136.html
http://rmn.craigslist.org/grd/4395209881.html

Are these older machines trouble? Or are they handy for a small timer with 10-20 acre fields?


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Upgrade your rake as well... V rake at min...this will save you a lot of valuable time.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Nitram said:


> Upgrade your rake as well... V rake at min...this will save you a lot of valuable time.


Yeah right now I can rake about 2.5 acres per hour. Cutting is currently much slower so the haybine is #1 on the list.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'd actually upgrade the rake first.

On a far more pessimistic note, I'd say don't try this at all. Buying more/better/newer/ bigger just to be able to do a few custom jobs while holding down full time employment will rarely be a recipe for success. If you want to upgrade with the intent of transitioning that equip to additional acreage of your own in the reasonably near future it might make sense. Might. But in the meantime the aggravation will still be very high.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

If you are cutting a lot of lowland meadows you may want to look at a discbine or disc mower instead of a sickle machine.You will have plugging issues with the ones shown esp if wet conditions.A 8' disc mower would actually do more acres per hr and dry better laid out flat vs a windrow.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

I would tend to prefer a discbine or Moco than a sickle machine, but my grandfather worked for a guy who had a 1496(?) NH self-propelled and it would cover a lot of ground. I would lean towards the NH that you have shown there for two main reasons:

1) The cab - if you are going to be right over the cutter head, there will be plenty of chaff, dust and bugs flying up at you.

2) Diesel engine - I'm not sure how much the difference in usage would be, but I think the diesel will save you money on fuel

The only problem I ever saw my grandfather/father deal with on the 1496 was that there is a single chain in the final drive for each tire (it's a little heavier than a bike chain). That broke one time as my grandfather was making a run between fields and he nearly spun the machine into the ditch. The only thing that made the repair difficult was the access to the sprockets that the chain ran on.

However, HiTech has a good point about what you're buying and why. For the $7,000 that they are asking for the NH, you could probably pick up a decent 9 foot pull type discbine or Moco and not have the extra engine, transmission, etc. to deal with.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

That what I was thinking too 7k will buy a decent discbine around here.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Not much lowland. Mostly established alfalfa mixes.
Lets ignore the custom work scenarios and just focus on the pros and cons of an older self propelled machine vs a little newer pull type.

Will a 12' self propelled of that age save much time vs a little newer 9-10' sickle? I figured the SP wouldn't be much faster than a discbine.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Not much lowland. Mostly established alfalfa mixes.
> Lets ignore the custom work scenarios and just focus on the pros and cons of an older self propelled machine vs a little newer pull type.
> 
> Will a 12' self propelled of that age save much time vs a little newer 9-10' sickle? I figured the SP wouldn't be much faster than a discbine.


If you have enough tractor, a 9' discbine will run circles around an aged SP haybine.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Tractor could be a limiting factor.
We pull the 9' haybine no problem with our 560 diesel or even our 460 gas. From what I understand Discbines take a little more power?
The next step up tractor wise is a 1086 which is our tillage/round baling tractor. So that gives you an idea of the size of operation. A big discbine to pull behind that is out of our budget.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

We had a 1495 NH swather. With a sharp sickle that will out cut that Hesston hands down in grass hay. Alfalfa about the same. And I would say that 1495 would be faster then a pull type sickle and as the ad says you would run over less hay. Now everyone that has commented that a PT discbine is much faster then both those sp sickle machine are right. If we still had the NH 1495 I would be going about 2-3 mph in the grass hay I'm going to cut today. With our rotary sp swather I will be going 8-9 mph with no fear of plugging up.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

A 1086 isn't over kill even on a smaller disbine. I run an 8 ft with 62 hp, or just about 8 hp per foot. I can run 5.5MPH on light hay, and have to drop back to around 4MPH in heavy stuff. I just don't have the HP to pull it fast. If you found a 10 ft machine, using my current HP formula you would need min of 78 just to pull at the speeds I pull. If you want to go faster and make time you could easily eat another 15-20 HP. So 100 HP needed to pull well. Whats a 1086, 120HP? Its a little big, but not terrible. Plus, you wont be overheating it from pushing it too hard.


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## cowboy73 (Dec 3, 2012)

Would upgrade the rake first as suggested, but would also consider a wider sickle machine until you could budget a discbine. Have put a lot of acres on my NH 499 with my custom work, the extra 3 ft. of cut speeds things up. Would have to mow with your 1086. If you do go the custom work route make sure you don't short change yourself on your rates. Remember, more hours on equipment means more cost in mantaining and up keep.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

As far as the machines go, the 1495 is a good, older sp. We had one as our first sp windrower. I would also look at a 1499 as an older sp machine. It has some updates and improvements that make it better than the 1495. I have no experience with that Hesston, but would avoid any machine that was gas and no cab.

We moved to a 13' pull type disc conditioner in the mid '90's. We were cutting alfalfa/orchard grass mix, brome, and mixed grass hay. Our dealer recommended a sickle mower for pure alfalfa, but preferred disc for grass. I always thought that our sp sickle mowers could keep up with the new disc mowers in our stands that were almost pure alfalfa. The more grass, the bigger the advantage with the disc condition, at least from our experience. We kept the 1499 around for cutting straw, the disc conditioners were terrible for this. This was in SE Iowa.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Tractor could be a limiting factor.
> We pull the 9' haybine no problem with our 560 diesel or even our 460 gas. From what I understand Discbines take a little more power?
> The next step up tractor wise is a 1086 which is our tillage/round baling tractor. So that gives you an idea of the size of operation. A big discbine to pull behind that is out of our budget.


There are some lower power discbines out there if you know what to look for. We currently run a CaseIH 3309 disc mower/conditioner. Normally it is behind our JD4020 which has plenty of power for it, but we have also run it behind our IH 784 and Ford 5000 (all diesels). When running it on the 5000, you have to keep an eye on the temperature gage, but I think that has more to do with the 40+ year old engine than the mower.

The CaseIH 3309 was made by Hesston and is also that same thing as a New Idea 5209. Massey Ferguson is still making basically the same mower under the 1359 model number. I'm assuming your 560 and 460 are both IH tractors? If so the 560 would be able to run the mower but you would probably be limited on speed. If you put the 1086 on it and have power to spare, you could pretty much run as fast as you want. Our 4020 will pull the mower nicely in 5 or 6 gear and drop 5+ acres per hour.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Josh in WNY said:


> There are some lower power discbines out there if you know what to look for. We currently run a CaseIH 3309 disc mower/conditioner. Normally it is behind our JD4020 which has plenty of power for it, but we have also run it behind our IH 784 and Ford 5000 (all diesels). When running it on the 5000, you have to keep an eye on the temperature gage, but I think that has more to do with the 40+ year old engine than the mower.
> 
> The CaseIH 3309 was made by Hesston and is also that same thing as a New Idea 5209. Massey Ferguson is still making basically the same mower under the 1359 model number. I'm assuming your 560 and 460 are both IH tractors? If so the 560 would be able to run the mower but you would probably be limited on speed. If you put the 1086 on it and have power to spare, you could pretty much run as fast as you want. Our 4020 will pull the mower nicely in 5 or 6 gear and drop 5+ acres per hour.


Excellent info, Thanks everyone.
Our Gehl haybine is the only cutter we have ever had. It's hard for me to imagine 5 acres per hour!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Do you have cabs? Disc mowers require some type of protection as well. Another thing to consider.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Excellent info, Thanks everyone.
> Our Gehl haybine is the only cutter we have ever had. It's hard for me to imagine 5 acres per hour!


If your first experience with a disc-style mower conditioner is anything like mine, you will never want to go back to a sickle machine!


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

deadmoose said:


> Do you have cabs? Disc mowers require some type of protection as well. Another thing to consider.


I don't have cabs on our tractors, but yes, it is recommended. Luckily, I don't have much to worry about as far as rocks and stones on our clay ground. At the very least, make sure the safety curtain on the mower is in good shape.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

1086 has a cab, but the 460 and 560 which we cut with don't.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

If you have 7 grand to spend on the self propelled new holland and a 1086.... buy a used 9' discbine, should be able to for that money and you will have no regrets. A agree about the rake, particularly if you rake how we do here, in front of the baler by hours not days most of the time.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

cmd said:


> If you have 7 grand to spend on the self propelled new holland and a 1086.... buy a used 9' discbine, should be able to for that money and you will have no regrets. A agree about the rake, particularly if you rake how we do here, in front of the baler by hours not days most of the time.


Yes, we generally rake and bale in the same day.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

And you are spending about 8 hours raking 20 acres. My baler would go around you and finish mad. 1500$ for a used 12 wheel was the second best thing I did after the 1030 disc pro. I'm not saying go spend a lot before you get more land but the rake will open the baling window considerably. I too work full time 70 miles away raise cattle as well and time is the most valuable commodity for me


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

with my 9'9" disc mower with 100 hp on front, in our smaller odd shaped fields the worst I can do is 3.5-4 acres an hour and that is downright ignorant shapen fields. Normally much faster. If the tractor pukes, I can find another to borrow in the neighborhood, same with the mower. If, or I mean, when, an antique self propelled dies you are out of business totally until fixed.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

The rake deal is the same reason we all say not to buy a tedder less than 4 star. You have a few hours to get done and get drying done before the sun goes down. I, like you juggle "work" and farming and yes I have more capacity than I technically need but it's the only way to make it happen in a timely fashion.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Not much lowland. Mostly established alfalfa mixes.Lets ignore the custom work scenarios and just focus on the pros and cons of an older self propelled machine vs a little newer pull type.Will a 12' self propelled of that age save much time vs a little newer 9-10' sickle? I figured the SP wouldn't be much faster than a discbine.


I just sold my 1499 for $9,000. It was in very good condition, but needed some adjusting. 
I loved operating it, but maintaining it was a big pain and was getting expensive. The 1499 had a Ford diesel that purred like akiten, AC that could freeze you out. The rubber rollers were excellent and the blades were all replaced. The seat was excellent and it drove pretty nice. 
Bad side is there's a lot of belts, chains and bearings in those machines. Parts are scarce. i needed a drive sprocket bearing Last season and the parts guy told me I bought the last ones in national inventory! 
You'd be much better and faster with a discbine. Now that I own one, I'm getting everything done MUCH faster and more reliably. 
I do miss the "cab forward" view of the haybine.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

There is a lot of good points on here. The first one being the rake. It being the oldest and possibly slowing the baling process, I would look for a new Holland or a Vermeer bar rake. Reason being, set properly they don't run in the dirt like a wheel rake, therefore there is little dirt in your hay. The other reason is that a hydraulic rake will turn a wet heavy window where a wheel rake goes over the top and makes small haystacks!

As for the cutting side, I would let some on else have those two machines. The NH is getting tough to get parts for. The engine will run for ever though. The Hesston is a good machine. Too bad it doesn't have a cab. The gas engine loves to see you show up with gas! You probably are better off staying with the pull type rotary. I never have agreed with the speed part because not very often you have a glass smooth hay field to cut. Plus you have to turn at the end! The best part is you can mow hay, fence, pipe, and whatever else at a constant speed and don't have to shift.

I had a 1365 Hesston and it was a really nice machine. We sold the tractor that ran it so it got sold. You might look at a 1345? 13' cut and your 1086 would work fine. It is a swing tongue so you can cut back and forth. As far as a self propelled, Keep your eye out for an 8400 Hesston or an 8840 Case. They have 14' headers, hydraulic float, excellent cabs, and very reliable. They will run you more then what you had in mind, but a few years down the road! You will get in it and your neck will thank you! I can tell you the inside and out of one if you have any questions!


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

MT hayer said:


> There is a lot of good points on here. The first one being the rake. It being the oldest and possibly slowing the baling process, I would look for a new Holland or a Vermeer bar rake. Reason being, set properly they don't run in the dirt like a wheel rake, therefore there is little dirt in your hay. The other reason is that a hydraulic rake will turn a wet heavy window where a wheel rake goes over the top and makes small haystacks!
> 
> As for the cutting side, I would let some on else have those two machines. The NH is getting tough to get parts for. The engine will run for ever though. The Hesston is a good machine. Too bad it doesn't have a cab. The gas engine loves to see you show up with gas! You probably are better off staying with the pull type rotary. I never have agreed with the speed part because not very often you have a glass smooth hay field to cut. Plus you have to turn at the end! The best part is you can mow hay, fence, pipe, and whatever else at a constant speed and don't have to shift.
> I had a 1365 Hesston and it was a really nice machine. We sold the tractor that ran it so it got sold. You might look at a 1345? 13' cut and your 1086 would work fine. It is a swing tongue so you can cut back and forth. As far as a self propelled, Keep your eye out for an 8400 Hesston or an 8840 Case. They have 14' headers, hydraulic float, excellent cabs, and very reliable. They will run you more then what you had in mind, but a few years down the road! You will get in it and your neck will thank you! I can tell you the inside and out of one if you have any questions!


"It being the oldest and possibly slowing the baling process, I would look for a new Holland or a Vermeer bar rake." - Are newer bar rakes that much faster than older ones? I get the point with the hydraulic rake.

I'm thinking maybe my solution for cutting right now is to pick up another small haybine and run one on the 560 and the other on the 460. That wouldn't help any custom hay jobs since I can't run two machines by myself at once, but I'm not actively looking for custom work, just a few people asking if I would. I have another driver for my own fields.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> "It being the oldest and possibly slowing the baling process, I would look for a new Holland or a Vermeer bar rake." - Are newer bar rakes that much faster than older ones? I get the point with the hydraulic rake.
> 
> I'm thinking maybe my solution for cutting right now is to pick up another small haybine and run one on the 560 and the other on the 460. That wouldn't help any custom hay jobs since I can't run two machines by myself at once, but I'm not actively looking for custom work, just a few people asking if I would. I have another driver for my own fields.


Might be a quick cheap solution for now but why not look towards the future. I don't know your area or climate but there are not too many sickle type mowers being run here by anyone with a shred of progressive nature.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

cmd said:


> Might be a quick cheap solution for now but why not look towards the future. I don't know your area or climate but there are not too many sickle type mowers being run here by anyone with a shred of progressive nature.


That is looking towards the future. I'm tightening my belt and doing what I need to do to increse cutting capacity/decrease cutting time with the tools I currently have on hand without going into debt buying a machine that won't fit into my operation until several years down the road. I would say looking towards the future is exactly what I am doing.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> That is looking towards the future. I'm tightening my belt and doing what I need to do to increse cutting capacity/decrease cutting time with the tools I currently have on hand without going into debt buying a machine that won't fit into my operation until several years down the road. I would say looking towards the future is exactly what I am doing.


I'd be looking more at selling the mower you have and using the money you were going to spend on another to buy 1 disc mower


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

cmd said:


> I'd be looking more at selling the mower you have and using the money you were going to spend on another to buy 1 disc mower


Yeah thats not a bad idea. Our haybine works good but I don't think it will bring enough to make much of a dent in a discbine. Maybe I could get rid of one of the old farmalls and the haybine, but we use both of of our small tractors quite a bit.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Yeah thats not a bad idea. Our haybine works good but I don't think it will bring enough to make much of a dent in a discbine. Maybe I could get rid of one of the old farmalls and the haybine, but we use both of of our small tractors quite a bit.


For $7000 or less you should be able to come up with a workable 9' discbine. Right now I am using a JD 920 which although I am not the biggest fan of... I have about $2500-$3000 invested in it total. It's got some miles on it but it still does a good job. When it croaks I'll probably not lose hardly anything at auction and go buy whatever deal I find then..... Just keep your eyes open, I know how it goes, never what you need for sale when your looking but take your time and sooner or later what you need will pop up. I like to think if something is sold out from under me, or not the right specs, etc that it just wasn't meant to be and so many times a month or two later exactly what I need pops up and I can grab it as I was already prepared. Has happened more than once....


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

Heck a 3pth disc and a tedder is still faster than a haybine. Not sure about your area but around here a bigger discbine for your larger tractor is cheaper than a small machine.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You can easily drive twice as fast with the disc vs. a sickle machine, and even with the smaller width that means a LOT more acres cut per day - forget the SP idea - they are old and cheap - the cheap is for a very good reason. My hats off to anybody that uses a 460 and 560 a LOT in one year.

Rodney


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

So if I took everyone's advice and upgraded the rake first - is upgrading from an old Oliver Rollerbar to a "newer" rollerbar much difference? I see some decent looking NH 256 around. I have never seen any rotary rakes in my area and would really like to be a trend setter but for now that price range is a few acres/years down the road.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Not much difference in ground speed, but it depends a bit on how wide your Oliver is. If it's an 8' rake and you went to a 258 NH, you'd at least be gaining over 10% capacity over your current rake IF you're raking tedded hay and can take advantage of the extra foot of working width. If you're raking swaths without tedding, the difference would be next to zero. Only speed you'd gain would be in parts turnaround in case of a breakdown.

Are there any v-rakes available in your area? Even an 8 wheel would be a big step up in productivity.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

About the only way to really increase raking speed with rolabar style rakes is to use a tandem hitch and pull more than one at a time (which is what I do). This might not be very feasible if you have smaller or odd shaped fields. Also, by the time you add up the cost of a second rake and the tandem hitch, you can probably get a decent rotary or v-rake. That is assuming you are looking to buy them right away, if you can afford to take your time and look for deals, it might not cost as much.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You didn't mention how many bars are in the rolabar rake - is it 4 or 5? newer ones all use 6 bars, real old ones used 4, then it was 5..... as the number of bars goes higher, the speed at which the hay gets moved goes down - so more bars = faster driving.

Rodney


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Excellent info! Our Oliver rake is a 5 bar.

Both haybine and rake should be upgraded soon. Maybe I'll replace some teeth and get by with what I have this year and save up for a rotary for next year. Maybe I can cut a deal with my Dad and he can upgrade the haybine and I upgrade the rake! Pretty sure I will have the first rotary rake in our neighborhood.

Ive seen a Frontier single rotary with under 100 acres for $6,100. I need to start doing some research on makes and models. From what I read on here Kuhn and Krone are the way to go.

I'm going to tell two of the people who wanted custom work done that I will have to pass this year. They were two far away for my small operation. Good news is a neighbor needs some round bales. That is one thing that I can do on a semi efficient scale. And the best part is he is cutting and raking. I just have to bale!


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## nanuk (Aug 29, 2011)

I custom bale for a bison rancher

he uses a 4020 to pull.

used to have a NH144 and would cut between 12.5-13ft each pass, and I'd have to say, he was averaging 4-5mph

he has since upgraded to a 13ft NH discbine

his 4020 is very underpowered for it.

he has lost at least 1.5-2mph

smokes like a forest fire

uses at least 1.5x the fuel

now, being newer, with wider crimpers, it does a nice job

but he had recently swapped the worn crimping rubbers for steel crimping rollers

the discbine had no advantage over the 114 with the new steel/steel crimpers.

(nature of the 4ft crimping section)

so far, the ONLY advantage, cutting in heavy dew, and far fewer plugs. even when going over a windrow, the discbine sucks it up and spits it out, and you can't see where it used to be.

I'd say, 10hp per foot for a discbine is minimum

Also, up here they are VERY expensive. you'd not find one in working order for under $5k, and 9-10footers are almost non-existant.

I agree with some others above, a Vrake would speed up production.

that is MY next purchase.... it will not make me more money, but what I will make will be easier.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

You guys have convinced me that a rake upgrade should be my first priority. Next season I'll have 30 acres of alfalfa/orchard grass. Usually 3 but sometimes 4 cuts.
We will keep about 80 round bales to feed our cattle over winter, but the rest I would sell in either rounds or some small squares.
Suggestions on what type of rake to look for this winter?
A small rotary would be fantastic, but not sure if I could justify that financially. Raking 2 into 1 with one pass with a wheel rake would be nice too.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

What do you want to spend?


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

If its a rotary I'd be willing to maybe go up to 5K. Not sure if I could find a decent one for that.
Wheel probably about $2500.


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## Dolphin (May 21, 2010)

Financing options are pretty good for a new rotary. I got two years ultra low rate from Krone, I'm sure other manufacturers offer something.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

HERE, I could buy you a semi load of rakes under $5000. It's going to be a regional thing.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Also, even though there are other threads, you might want to start a new one where the title will indicate you're rake shopping.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

I picked up a used Lely 10 wheel rake with center kicker wheel last spring for $1900. Was using an old NH 56 bar rake and wow what the difference it made. I had them install valves so I can just put one side down if very heavy 1st cut or to flip a rained on windrow. I also have the option to flip the end wheels to only rake with 8 wheels which is nice for my small square bale operation and older Nh 269 balers.

I'm in the same bought looking for a discbine but my biggest tractor is a Oliver 1755 about 86hp. So I'm limited. I have a nh 479 pt and a nh 1469 sp and love running the SP unit but slow machine. I only use it on our 12 ac to slow to drive down the rd to my other fields. I considered a nh 408 or a new idea 5209 due to hp requirements.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> If its a rotary I'd be willing to maybe go up to 5K. Not sure if I could find a decent one for that.
> Wheel probably about $2500.


I sold my old Niemeyer rotary rake last year for $1,900. Still worked pretty good. you'll find a nice one for 5k.


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## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

I would consider a john deere 700 or vermeer r23. In my area they sell for 5 -7. I have raked a pile of hay with jd 700 and 5000 ford. I wish we still had it but we outgrew it. I always liked the 216 ney holland but you need a fairly higher flow of oil to run them. My personal opinion is wheel rakes are not much. I would take a deere 700 over a wheel rake or single rotor rotary rake any day of the week.


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## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

Bought a jd 920 new in 95 or 96 and literally wore it out. It was a damn good mo/co. If you are considering a 920 your 1086 should fan it. When we bought 920 other dealer brought a new idea 5209 to try. I liked it because it pulled easy but there was more iron in the 920 tongue than the whole new idea machine lol


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