# No-tilling small seeded hay crops into heavy residue



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I get excellent stands of alfalfa, Timothy, and other very small seeds with my JD 1590 drill when no-tilling into minimal and low residue conditions. However I struggle to get a stand of these small seeded crops when planting into heavier residue situations. I have no problems getting good stands of small grains and soybeans in heavier residue conditions so I know the drill is capable of cutting through the residue. I think the issue is since the small seeds need to be planted so shallow (1/4") that it is difficult to get through all residue when planting that shallow......or the small seedlings just can't make it up through all the trash if they do get in the ground.

I had this issue again this fall when planting Timothy into oat straw that was not baled. In the pictures you can see that there is a great stand where the straw is thin but in the areas of heavier straw almost nothing came up. Is there anything I can do different to be able to get good stands in these conditions? 













Hayden


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I bale all the crop residue off prior to planting small seeds now. The few times i did not i had poor stands in the high residue areas.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Yes that 1/4 inch is tricky you had gauge wheel set for 1/4 and the gauge wheel drove over 1/2 inch of trash so where did seed end up . 3rd page of notill hand book residue must be spread evenly..LOL easy er said . We increase depth for trash .


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

If it makes you feel any better I had a similar thing happen after killing down a pasture and doing a replant. Too much existing residue. I should have grazed it really hard first. I ended up replanting in the spring, and it worked well. The winter gave the dead grass/sod time to recompose and loosen up.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

carcajou said:


> I bale all the crop residue off prior to planting small seeds now. The few times i did not i had poor stands in the high residue areas.


 These oats had a bunch of weeds that grew up through them and made the straw not fit to bale. I hated to bale off residue(nutrients) that I couldn't sell and would have to dispose of.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

endrow said:


> Yes that 1/4 inch is tricky you had gauge wheel set for 1/4 and the gauge wheel drove over 1/2 inch of trash so where did seed end up . 3rd page of notill hand book residue must be spread evenly..LOL easy er said . We increase depth for trash .


 Yeah I though about increasing the seeding depth but I was afraid it might get the seed too deep in the places where the trash wasn't as heavy. It defiantly would be better if the residue was spread evenly......like you said though easier said than done. How much deeper would you set the gauge wheels in trashy conditions?

I'm wanting to go full no-till due to the most of my ground being highly erodible but I need to figure out how to be able to deal with the residue and be able to get good stands.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

No market to bale the straw and sell it?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

PaMike said:


> No market to bale the straw and sell it?


 Clean straw yes. But these oats were full of horsenettle and pigweed that came up through them before they got harvested. Couldn't sell straw like that.....no market for mulch here. My combine was broke down so that is why I was delayed in harvesting.....by the time I got it fixed the oats were not worth anything and I bushhogged them. I had planted a good portion of my acreage into oats so there would have been a lot of junk bales to haul off and dispose of.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Clean straw yes. But these oats were full of horsenettle and pigweed that came up through them before they got harvested. Couldn't sell straw like that.....no market for mulch here. My combine was broke down so that is why I was delayed in harvesting.....by the time I got it fixed the oats were not worth anything and I bushhogged them. I had planted a good portion of my acreage into oats so there would have been a lot of junk bales to haul off and dispose of.


You can't even get something like $1 for it? If you need it off the field, taking a crappy price for the residue might just be a cost of doing business. Cheaper than a replant.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> You can't even get something like $1 for it? If you need it off the field, taking a crappy price for the residue might just be a cost of doing business. Cheaper than a replant.


 Nope, there is zero market here for mulch hay. It would have been a couple thousand bales if I had baled it so that would have been a lot of work and a problem disposing that many bales.

Right now I have some soybean residue that I'm concerned about planting through. Again there is no market for that if I baled it.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I've had trouble with a 1590 and small seeds as well. I think it has to do with the combination of shallow depth and down pressure required. Just doesn't work.

I've always had my best results after beans.

Have you considered light tillage so that some of the residue get buried?

Ralph


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> I've had trouble with a 1590 and small seeds as well. I think it has to do with the combination of shallow depth and down pressure required. Just doesn't work.
> 
> I've always had my best results after beans.
> 
> ...


 I have had problems in the past planting into bean residue. I ended up with 2-3 foot wide strips throughout the whole fields that had poor germination. Upon closer inspection I noticed those strips were directly behind the combine where the trash (mostly bean hulls) goes over the sieve. The rest of the field the residue wasn't thick enough to cause a problem and I had a very good stand.

A portion of this ground the landowners will not allow any tillage of any kind. I do wonder how something like a Great Plains turbo till would work for this situation but right now that is not a feasible option.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Do you do anything to spread your bean fodder?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Do you do anything to spread your bean fodder?


 There is a straw chopper on the combine so all the stalks that go over the walkers get chopped and spread.....works pretty good in beans. There is not any kind of spreader though for the chaff that goes over the sieve which is what is causing me an issue.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> There is a straw chopper on the combine so all the stalks that go over the walkers get chopped and spread.....works pretty good in beans. There is not any kind of spreader though for the chaff that goes over the sieve which is what is causing me an issue.


Can you retrofit a chaff spreader onto your combine?? Should be able to get one from a salvage yard fairly cheap I would think...

Later! OL J R


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

FarmerCline said:


> There is a straw chopper on the combine so all the stalks that go over the walkers get chopped and spread.....works pretty good in beans. There is not any kind of spreader though for the chaff that goes over the sieve which is what is causing me an issue.


That is correct that chaff is nasty for these small seeded crops . It is the same principal as mulching your flower bed to keep the small weeds fro coming back. We have to notill it is the law here and I am not a fan of baling residue and wont for corn, beans, rye or wheat . But I can tell you this I already know where I will platnt alfalfa next spring and the bean stalks are baled there .


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

luke strawwalker said:


> Can you retrofit a chaff spreader onto your combine?? Should be able to get one from a salvage yard fairly cheap I would think...
> 
> Later! OL J R


 Maybe but it would have to be very cheap. It is a JD 3300. This old combine isn't worth spending any money on. In fact after this year I swore I wasn't going to plant any more grain and just junk the combine and go all hay but now I'm finding myself getting ready to plant some barley for next year.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

endrow said:


> That is correct that chaff is nasty for these small seeded crops . It is the same principal as mulching your flower bed to keep the small weeds fro coming back. We have to notill it is the law here and I am not a fan of baling residue and wont for corn, beans, rye or wheat . But I can tell you this I already know where I will platnt alfalfa next spring and the bean stalks are baled there .


 I know your a big fan of no-till and I was hoping you would reply. I really like no-till as well and feel it is necessary on my hills to minimize erosion. I still have some fields that need worked up to smooth them out and incorporate lime but I'm working on going towards full no-till.

It sounds like to make no-tilling small seeded hay crops work that I either need to follow a low residue crop or either bale the residue. Really hate to bale the residue because I don't have anything to do with it. What would be your feelings on using something like a Great Plains turbo till to lightly incorporate the residue rather than baling it? That wouldn't help me now but could be something to look into in the future possibly. It concerns me though that in order to incorporate the residue that it might work up the ground enough to risk erosion on my hills.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We have notilled a life time and for the first time this fall we rented 2 different style Salford Vertical tillage tools.. You could try a Turbo Till we are going to as well . The 1590 did a better job planting rye barley and triticaLE behind the combine in Untouched 200+ bushel corn stalks, than in the vertical tilled stalks .. The Salford did an excellent job of mixing and incorporating the hulls and stalks and chaff that fall threw the concave grates and go out over the sieves and miss spreader


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## matt scks (Feb 20, 2014)

Is fire allowed? Takes care of several of your problems


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

matt scks said:


> Is fire allowed? Takes care of several of your problems


 No, last time I tried burning a field I ended up on the front page of the newspaper even though I had it under control. The bean stubble isn't enough to really burn well anyway.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

You could try out a chopper and blow it back onto the field. May be less of an investment than adding a tillage tool.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> I know your a big fan of no-till and I was hoping you would reply. I really like no-till as well and feel it is necessary on my hills to minimize erosion. I still have some fields that need worked up to smooth them out and incorporate lime but I'm working on going towards full no-till.
> 
> It sounds like to make no-tilling small seeded hay crops work that I either need to follow a low residue crop or either bale the residue. Really hate to bale the residue because I don't have anything to do with it. What would be your feelings on using something like a Great Plains turbo till to lightly incorporate the residue rather than baling it? That wouldn't help me now but could be something to look into in the future possibly. It concerns me though that in order to incorporate the residue that it might work up the ground enough to risk erosion on my hills.


Burn the field-- that'll clear up the residue problem and provide a lot of fertility from the ash... 

They burn a lot of rice stubble around here for just that reason...

Later! OL J R


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

luke strawwalker said:


> Burn the field-- that'll clear up the residue problem and provide a lot of fertility from the ash...
> 
> They burn a lot of rice stubble around here for just that reason...
> 
> Later! OL J R


 I would love to be able to the burn the residue but like I said in my previous post last time I burned a field I ended up on the front page of the newspaper......also received personal threats from neighbors. It's not worth the hassle.....yet another disadvantage to farming in a populated area.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Would a Pneumatic Drill (Compressed Air Drill) do better? I hear they shoot the seed right through light chaff.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I think a 1590 will get the drill seed through the chaff if it is set right. But I think with those soy hulls , they actually work like putting mulch on the flower beds whereas the mulch actually keeps the small vegetation from growing


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> You could try out a chopper and blow it back onto the field. May be less of an investment than adding a tillage tool.


 Wouldnt that still leave a mat a chopped residue on the surface that could still be an issue to plant through? Never been around a chopper though so maybe I'm wrong?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Trillium Farm said:


> Would a Pneumatic Drill (Compressed Air Drill) do better? I hear they shoot the seed right through light chaff.


 Never heard of one of those drills. Not sure if they are even sold here in the US.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

endrow said:


> I think a 1590 will get the drill seed through the chaff if it is set right. But I think with those soy hulls , they actually work like putting mulch on the flower beds whereas the mulch actually keeps the small vegetation from growing


 Yesterday I tried no-tilling a few acres of Timothy into the bean stubble. I set the gauge wheels on the drill for 1/2" to see if I get any better results than 1/4". It looked like in most places I was getting through the residue. I'm not so sure though if I got through all the bean hulls right behind the combine though.....guess I will find out when it comes up. Only planted a few acres because it really is too late....might be okay though if we have a mild winter.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> Wouldnt that still leave a mat a chopped residue on the surface that could still be an issue to plant through? Never been around a chopper though so maybe I'm wrong?


I think it would be worth a try if you could get your hands on a chopper. We chopped hay back onto the field if we could not bale it back in the day.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> I think it would be worth a try if you could get your hands on a chopper. We chopped hay back onto the field if we could not bale it back in the day.


 I would end up having to buy a chopper to try it out. Would it chop it that fine that it wouldn't make a mat of residue to still plant through.....or in the case of rained on hay that it wouldn't contaminate the next cutting? Since I have nearly no market for rained on hay that could be something to consider.


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

We've used a chopper for really rained on hay before. For corn residue it would work. If it is still putting it back on the field to densely, you could rig a spread plate about a foot from the end of the spout. It will spread it over 20ft. Like on the back of a slurry spreader. Our nieghbor had a set up like this. They can cut corners stalks down to half an inch.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> I would end up having to buy a chopper to try it out. Would it chop it that fine that it wouldn't make a mat of residue to still plant through.....or in the case of rained on hay that it wouldn't contaminate the next cutting? Since I have nearly no market for rained on hay that could be something to consider.


I would hope a dealer would let you try one out first before buying. I really think it would chop it fine enough to alleviate your issues and if it was windy it would help out even more. I don't know what kind of market you have for individuals selling choppers but you can get them here fairly cheap. If you could get a dealer to let you try one and if it worked wait for an individual selling one.

https://erie.craigslist.org/grd/d/new-holland-790-chopper-and/6365418016.html


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

If you do go the chopper route, you could just take off spout completely. You'd probaly get it to blow 30 ft in the air and fan out.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> I would hope a dealer would let you try one out first before buying. I really think it would chop it fine enough to alleviate your issues and if it was windy it would help out even more. I don't know what kind of market you have for individuals selling choppers but you can get them here fairly cheap. If you could get a dealer to let you try one and if it worked wait for an individual selling one.
> 
> https://erie.craigslist.org/grd/d/new-holland-790-chopper-and/6365418016.html


 Choppers are far and few between here.....I have never seen a used one on a lot. I would love to be able to try one out to see if it would work.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

If you don't have any livestock ,agist some to graze the stubble down prior to planting.


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## anokes (Jul 30, 2008)

Have planted thousands of acres of alfalfa with a 1890 Deere in no till. You have one chance to do it right and it starts when you harvest the crop prior to planting the hay. You also have to remember when planting alfalfa you are pushing the drill to it's limits on seeding depth accuracy. Worn disks or boots or bushings will kill your control. When you mowed the oats and weeds you made it impossible to get a good stand. Just think about what your are doing with a mower. All the material is getting sized down and pushed to one side of the mower or actually being forced into windows.
We started using stripper heads to harvest wheat prior to planting hay. We really liked to cross drill new stands but in the stripper cut straw once you make one pass with the drill it is over. The straw is laid in one direction and when you go for the second pass the disks just ride over the straw. 
The old way of a million trips across the field to get a perfect seed bed is dumb. And for all you who disagree with me before you make a comment watch a rain fall simulator from one of the no till people. The old way of planting hay distroys the soils ability to take up water and isn't that what we want the soil to do in order to grow better crops is to take up more water. 
Think about your sinaro after you mowed the field this way. You go to walk through your standing corn field, sure you have stalks in your way but you can easily push them to the side as you walk forward. Now picture all that residue pilled up like walking through a ball pit pretty hard to push all that out of your way as you walk.
Plan your hay fields at least two years ahead and it will be the best thing you can do. A hay field last for years the better start you give it the more it will give you.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

You can retrofit a row cleaner to JD single disc units. http://www.bprengineering.com.au/aricks-wheel.html

If you want to go full no till, this is what i would look at. I have dealt with the owner personally and he is very switched on when it comes to jd drills.


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