# Banana Bales



## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

I know this is talked about alot on all brand of balers but I know about and use New Holland balers so that is what i am referring to,but I have given it a lot of thought and I need ya'lls opinion but when hay enters the chamber and the plunger pushes it back and the knives cut it there is a wad of hay at the stationary knife that did not go into the bale and on the next push with the feeder fingers they bring in more hay and then another wad of hay at the stationary knife and if you will notice that the fingers are what 5 or 6 inches from the stationary knife and they just roll that wad into the chamber and it doesn't go all the way to the other side and get evened out,so if the fingers were closer to the knife wouldn't this help? Think about a the old 77 and 76 when the plunger cut the hay that wad fell down and made a good bale,like the inline they say will make a good square bale that cut hay falls back down just enough to get put back in the feed area evenly. I am trying to figure out a way to test this theory but would have to do some major fabrication,New Holland did put a false back on some models but it does not go all the way to the knife and there is still that dead spot that the fingers cannot reach.On some models like the 273 you can turn the curved tooth toward the stationary knife to grab that hay and it does seem to help fairly well so put on your thinking caps and lets see if we can come up with some way to see if this will solve the problem of banana bales of course by doing all the other things everybody has said.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

It's been solved. Either by adjusting the feeder tines and having properly raked hay or getting a newer baler with rotary feeding system.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I think you are trying to treat the symptom instead of working on the cause. If the plunger is adjusted properly and the knives are sharp you should not see hay hanging around that corner. Two things about the plunger adjustment. First it is not just about getting the knives closer together but also to make sure there is not too much clearance on the top side of the plunger. The second is there should be no more than .030 clearance between the knives when everything is adjusted.

Even with everything adjusted properly it is still possible for the hay to be pushing back into the feeder area. That is where the haydogs come into play. NH has used different styles of haydogs and their placement. The haydogs need to be free and the springs not broken. On some of the older balers there were only three haydogs, two on top and one on the bottom. On the 270 and 271 there were four, but, they were designed to fit in the needle slot. It may have been a good idea but they did not protrude for enough into the bale chamber and the springs were not that effective. On the 273 you mentioned you can add plunger face extensions to push the hay farther into the chamber. This will also help your tying in crops you may have a problem with. When the 310, 315, 311 balers came they changed the design of the haydogs. They would protrude farther into the chamber but the springs they used were weak and the top right haydog was still the old design. Changing to the heavier springs will help keep the hay in place. Since the introduction of the 565, 570, 575 there have been six haydogs all the same design. With these balers you do hear about the half slices you are referring to. The false back you mentioned on earlier balers was to push more hay into the left side of the chamber.


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## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

All good information,what I am thinking is when the knifes cut the hay you have half of it in the chamber or chute and part of it stays in the feed opening and is all the way back and there is a lot of space there that the fingers can't grab it and pull it all the way to the other side(clear as mud?) I have been watching when I bale but thinking about putting a camera in there and getting a better view. i built a model of the old 76 baler and this is what happened to it and had to put extensions on the hammer head to get that hay where the knives cut to go down further,watch your baler real close and see what you think


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

The wad of hay left in the cross-transfer area of an off set baler (ie not in line) is a part of the intermingled flow of hay flowing into the chamber as packed in by the packer forks/fingers. I use the term forks to differentiate from other fingers and tines on the baler, eg on the pickup. Generally to prevent a banana bale which has too much material on the right (knife) side of the bale the packer forks are adjusted to deliver the hay further into the bale chamber, that is the packer forks push the hay further to the left of the bale chamber. If you make this adjustment then check the timing of the packer fork to the plunger. If the packer fork has to travel further into the chamber then it is uplifted and withdrawn from the bale chamber a little later than it is if not pushing so far to the left. The danger is that with the later uplift/withdrawal the plunger will strike the forks and that hurts, physically for the forks and emotionally and financially for you!

On very early NH balers (eg super 66, from the 1950's) the cross transfer was by auger like the JD 348

but then the hay was pushed backward into a stuffing box by a spring loaded section on the right of the plunger, then pushed into the chamber by a reciprocating ram traversing the stuffing box. The principal for banana bales was the same the reciprocating ram's reach into the chamber could be adjusted to push more or less hay to the left side of the chamber.

On newer design balers the cross transfer and packer forks either 4,6 or I believe 8 paired forks are carried on a bar that travels in an elliptical or oval pattern. Again the packer forks often a pair of walrus tooth looking alloy spikes could have their position on the bar adjusted to determine their reach into the bale chamber.

I have been considering building a moveable back wall for my NH 570 as in some very dry seasons I have difficulty with the bale shape and despite adjusting to the maximum extent and fitting an extra "teardrop" on the rotor that delivers hay to the packer fork I still cannot get a perfect bale shape. In my consideration of design, I concluded that the moveable back wall could not go all the way to the knife because the pressure of the plunger on the hay outside the stationary knife would cause the extra wall to collapse. ie the rear wall in the cross transfer area could not be forward of the stationary knife.

I think nhbaler282 has identified the problem I strike in our very dry years which give very low straw strength in my hay and the result is banana bales.

The material behind the packer forks , from the rear packer fork to the rear wall/stationary knife is about 9 inches wide at the top and the packer fork is incapable (in some conditions) of transferring all of this material fully to the left side of the bale chamber, resulting in more material under the right string than is under the left, hence a banana bale!

This extra material under the right string is easiest to see as the bale exits the baler, examine the end of the bale.

If there is some material under the right string only and you can observe a vertical cut in that thin slice of material before it has reached the left string then you can see the source of the banana bale. In my case it may only amount to about 1/4 of an inch thickness (often less) of compressed hay captured under the right string that is not captured under the left string, but on a 12 biscuit/stroke/slice (whatever term you use) bale that means 3 inches of compressed hay more on the right side than the left.

The rest of the bale is packed very evenly. it is just that small section per stroke causing grief.

If the baler had more adjustment on the packer forks then that extra under the right string could be counterbalanced by putting a little more in the left side.

Another Australian farmer has a modification on You tube whereby he added extra adjustijg holes to the side of the packer forks to cure banana bales. That was a modification that the dealer and I came to independently in about 2008 without any success.

Any thoughts would be appreciated on the issue nhbaler282 raises.


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## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Coondle you understand what I am talking about and I don't know of any way to fix the problem but was hoping someone might be able to tell the engineers and maybe they could change it on a new model or do some experimenting themselves,I don't work for NH any more it has been a few years I raise bermuda grass hay and fix all the balers in this area mostly NH I have 20 + NH balers that I collect so I am always playing with them even have a scaled down model of the 76 that makes minature bales but anyway I am going to run the 272 in a week or two and I am going to turn the first curved finger toward the knife or if I have time might make a finger that will grab that hay left by the knifes and see if that helps it has the kind of feeder that doesn't go up into slots so it can be made to reach further back any way lets see what happens.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

I am not familiar with the 272, it may be a model that did not get to Australia. My recollection is that we got the 69, super 69 then the 275 and the 278 which had a 16 inch by 18 inch chamber. The next baler was a 317 which was manufactured locally for quite a few years until demand for small squares waned with rolls coming into play. We then had the 417 and super 417, there were a few 465's (I think) then a few 468's the came the 570 and 575. The 565 never really got here except by special order.

A long winded way of saying I do not know what the packer finger setup on the 272 is.

Would appreciate some photos if at all possible


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

nhbaler282 said:


> I don't work for NH any more it has been a few years I raise bermuda grass hay and fix all the balers in this area mostly NH I have 20 + NH balers that I collect so I am always playing with them even have a scaled down model of the 76 that makes minature bales but anyway I am going to run the 272 in a week or two and I am going to turn the first curved finger toward the knife or if I have time might make a finger that will grab that hay left by the knifes and see if that helps it has the kind of feeder that doesn't go up into slots so it can be made to reach further back any way lets see what happens.


I did not know you had the experience that you indicated or I would not have posted my redundent, for you, comments.

I think by moving the back into the feeder farther and using plunger face extensions on your 273 you will achieve your goal.


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## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

Coondle the 272 has the same feeder carriage as the 275 which you are familiar with.it has that curved tooth that I am going to turn toward the knife and see if that helps,although I havent ran the 272 yet just been restoring it when I have time but it will be interesting to see if it makes any difference

Mike 10 thanks I don't give out much advice so you probably thought I was a newby but I will say that I enjoy reading your messages cause you are never too old to learn,you have given some good advice on haybines and balewagons which I use and still learning but there are none in this part of the world and some people ask me what they are and want to see them work but I am still learning. Many Thanks


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Have been busy for the past couple of weeks with my hay season, but can now reply.

In my opinion the curved tooth should not be turned. The reason-

With the curve orientated in line with the direction of travel of the carriage there is no torque on the tooth trying to turn it in its clamp (holder). The clamp has only one bolt and when loaded with hay and the tooth turned to the rear of the baler, the trend would be to rotate the tooth in its clamp.

The other effect of turning the tooth is that the tooth does not penetrate the chamber as far and therefore does not put as much hay into the left side of the bale.

Further, the return stroke of the carriage would cause the turned tooth to pull some hay back out of the bale chamber. I think the curve in the tooth is to assist in the clean withdrawal of the tooth from the chamber.

Hey, I can theorise but there is only one way to find out, just like with procrastinating over the taste of an orange- suck it and see.

I think you could try turning the tooth about 30 degrees at a time, turn the baler over by hand to ensure that nothing fouls then run the baler at idle with slow feed of hay slowly building up speed and volume.

I have now finished my hay season, baling and banding about 9,500 small squares of my own and doing another 2,000 for a neighbour. My bale bandit ran the best it has for me bundling the last 10,000 plus without a strapping failure. The last bales were in the shed within about 24 hours of being baled. Now the task is to market them and best of all collect the money.


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