# Custom Harvesting



## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

Hey all, Thinking about starting a custom harvesting operation some day. been going over what it costs to mow, rake, bale, and haul. so far seems to be making a good amount of money at the rates ive been hearing about. would like to know some opinions.

Whats best, Buying used equipment and doing with what i have or

Going to get a loan and buying new equipment and using the sink or swim method?

if someone was to have the equipment and man power to do say 50,000 acres a year of custom work, is it out there? could someone really afford to take the dive and buy the mowers,rake,balers, and tractors to make it work? Just wanting some advice from some people who are into this kind of operation and what they think about how a younger guy could get into it.

Thanks all


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Did you have a typo. 50000 acres/year is a huge amount to try to get done. If you were trying to do that much you would need a big line of new equipment because you can't afford to be broke down(yes I know new breaks too)


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

50000 ac would require many many employees.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Start somewhere smaller. Grow from there.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

You might aswell dream big.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

50,000 acres of hay man that is a lot of hay......


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I have no idea if the work is there, that's a ? That needs to be answered by locale.....but, I can tell you to get your best buddy the banker on the line, gonna need him for sure....


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Are you starting from scratch? How much experience in hay making? And are you well acquainted with farmers in your area...being respected by them is a major aspect in signing up customers


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

Ive been Figuring up kind of what id take to cover this much and Ive been using new equipment in my figuring and doing all the costs and everything that i can think of. Taking out per acre for Loan,Insurance,Fuel,Lube,Labor,Repairs and and then for baling and hauling ive done the same but on a per bale basis. I think ive got the expected costs covered but the breakdowns and such cant really perdict(Thats why I did a repair fund). The reason I put 50,000 is because thats what it will take to pay the loan of in 5-7 years(Which is what my parents friend, who is a loan officer said we could do on new equipment it a most 7 years). Im just wondering like between dairy farms and feedlots up north is there enough of them that contract out their forage harvesting to take the dive in? I have about 12 Years experience, started raking hay when i was 6 years old and been mowing baling and hauling since i was about 10. so the experience isnt a problem i dont think. just wanting some experience guys who contract some baling to help me get an idea if itll work out or not. Im not thinking of just in Missouri, I would like to travel kind of like the grain harvesting guys do. Any tips and info will be greatly appreciated


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

How much equipment are you planning on using for this 50,000 acre harvest???


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I can't imagine a banker saying "yeah, sounds good to me!" Wow.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

2 John Deere 7290R(Mower Tractors)

2 John Deere 131/388 Front/Rear mower combos

3 John Deere 6190R(Tedding/Raking Tractors)

3 Frontier 6 Rotor Tedders

3 Frontier 20 Wheel Rakes

3 John Deere 6210R(Baler Tractors)

3 John Deere 569 Balers or 3 Case LB434 3x4 square baler

Mights as well shoot for the stars right? lol


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Can't imagine a land owner saying yea you can bale my hay when you going to get to it well I have to get this other 40,000 acres cut and bale and then I will be right over.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

8350HiTech said:


> I can't imagine a banker saying "yeah, sounds good to me!" Wow.


lol kind of a rare thing i think


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Why the large row crop tractors for hay baling???


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

well i was thinking i could use them for other uses when im not doing hay and when im home during the off season. the two 7290Rs cant be changed unless i change my mower setup becuase the require front pto and minimum of 190 hp i could definitely go down on the rake and baler tractor size but then that would make them less multi use during the off season i think when i could be plowing,disking or spreading manure with them.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Looks like you have it all figured out...Good Luck


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Patro Farms said:


> well i was thinking i could use them for other uses when im not doing hay and when im home during the off season. the two 7290Rs cant be changed unless i change my mower setup becuase the require front pto and minimum of 190 hp i could definitely go down on the rake and baler tractor size but then that would make them less multi use during the off season i think when i could be plowing,disking or spreading manure with them.50


50000 acres with that kind of equipment during the off season you will be sleeping.

Is that 50000 total acres for multiple cuts or 50000 each cutting? By the sounds of it your two best friends better be manger of a bank and manger of John Deere dealership network.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

My issue would be enough hours and days. When rains set you back. 3-4 cutting per yr vs grain harvest one and done then move on


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Who's moving the bales?


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

hog987 said:


> 50000 acres with that kind of equipment during the off season you will be sleeping.
> 
> Is that 50000 total acres for multiple cuts or 50000 each cutting? By the sounds of it your two best friends better be manger of a bank and manger of John Deere dealership network.


50,000 with multiple cuttings. Yes, parents are good friends with banker and i go to school with a kid whos dad runs 2 JD dealers. It honestly helps to get out and meet people and have contacts with important people. What kind of equipment would you suggest? Is the stuff i listed too small and inefficient?


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

Nitram said:


> Who's moving the bales?


I am working on Figuring out a cost for transporting the hay right now. But im going to need some semis to haul the equipment so im thinking drop deck flat bed trailers so they can be used to haul the hay also.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Like the idea but logistical nightmare


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

Im working on figuring out the most productive way of doing it, The mowers are capable of 40 acres/hour x2 so thatll be pretty nice right there. Just wondering how many acres/hour can a 20 wheel rake do? any ideas?


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Patro Farms said:


> 50,000 with multiple cuttings. Yes, parents are good friends with banker and i go to school with a kid whos dad runs 2 JD dealers. It honestly helps to get out and meet people and have contacts with important people. What kind of equipment would you suggest? Is the stuff i listed too small and inefficient?


You need more equipment. Lets just take the mowers. In good conditions you can do 40acres/hour. Each mower will be doing 25000 acres per cutting. That works out to 625 hours to get it cut. Now how many cutting are you doing? Sure you might under perfect cutting do 50acres/hour. But you also have to figure in travel time. Break downs. Some guys who get custom work done have the most rough fields out there. Instead of cutting at 10miles you will be down to 3.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

so to do 50,000 acres/year do you think 3 mowers 4 rakes/tedders and 4 balers would do it?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Patro Farms said:


> so to do 50,000 acres/year do you think 3 mowers 4 rakes/tedders and 4 balers would do it?


Better have some good employees to keep that orchestra in time.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

I don't see how you will have enough suitable windows of harvesting to handle that many acres that often with acceptable results. If your product is not good you will lose customers that your counting on to pay the bills


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Custom haying timing is everything. If your not there when the client eants you he might go somewhere else. For equipment i would take everything you first thought of and times it by 10. You get limited time between rains to work and you need to get it done asap. Now you will need some top notch guys to run it all. A big task in its self.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Can you make it pencil out with one set of Equip? Min of one helper two would be better


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Back down and figure 5,000 acres and go from there. Most big property owners that produce hay has his own equipment.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

I will work it out with one set of equipment and see how that goes. The only help i was going to have was family and Close friend who i know have as much experience with hay equipment as i do. Thanks for the advice, i really appreciate it.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Is your banker going to finance you without customers?

Are customers going to hire you without equipment?

Best of luck.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Patro Farms said:


> 2 John Deere 7290R(Mower Tractors)
> 2 John Deere 131/388 Front/Rear mower combos
> 
> 3 John Deere 6190R(Tedding/Raking Tractors)
> ...


What's the price tag?


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

50,000 acres seems impossible, at least for someone just starting out unless you fall into one hell of a deal. That kind of hay ground is unheard of around here. The largest farmers are only covering 25k acres and that by all means is lots of ground. It takes all I've got to get up 1500-2000 acres of hay running from field to field.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

So who is doing the 50,000 acres now?How are you going to get it away from their current custom operator?


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> What's the price tag?


Just a ball park would be well over a million. At least he gots the right color In mind!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Colby said:


> Just a ball park would be well over a million. At least he gots the right color In mind!


Sure. Gonna take lots of green to get any of that home.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Unless you won the lottery this is not going to happen.No banker will borrow you that much from scratch,I don't care if he is a friend.And no way are you going to get 50,000 acres.It takes a lifetime to build a customer base or maybe multi generations.

It's just not going to happen.

Sorry for being blunt but its reality.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

So you dont think between multiple farms and multiple states 50,000 acres is not possible? even over the course of 9 or more months? Im not talking about one farmer with all 50,000 acres, im talking about multiple farmers with large acreages who hire out their custom harvesting. Definitely not just one person.


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## Patro Farms (Feb 16, 2014)

The Price tag on enough equipment to cover 50,000 acres is about $2.5-3 million for just the mower, rakes,balers and tractors to run and tractors to load and unload and stack the hay.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Patro Farms said:


> So you dont think between multiple farms and multiple states 50,000 acres is not possible? even over the course of 9 or more months? Im not talking about one farmer with all 50,000 acres, im talking about multiple farmers with large acreages who hire out their custom harvesting. Definitely not just one person.


What 9 or more months were you planning on using. I am not a large acreage guy but the few people I know that have large acreage has their own equipment. In my area large is more than 1,000 acres and most of that is in row crops.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

So do you have $750 000 sitting around to put your 25% down on the John Deere machinery because that is what they want.

So if haying 9 out of 12 months where will the down time be to use the tractors for something else? The down time will be getting ready for the next season.

Do you enjoy working in the field? Because if you do with that any acres you yourself won't spent much time there. Everything you will do will be concerned with logistics.

It would cost you less and be A LOT LESS STRESS for you to get your own small hay farm.

Another thing, It seems most large operations don't last very long. There was recently two large operations in Canada. One went out of business and one drastically reduced it size.

Now maybe if you work hard maybe you will get there by your mid fifties, But there is no way you will get there starting from nothing and jumping right into an operation of that size.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Patro Farms said:


> The Price tag on enough equipment to cover 50,000 acres is about $2.5-3 million for just the mower, rakes,balers and tractors to run and tractors to load and unload and stack the hay.


$2.5-3 mil would not even come close.Take it X 10 and you would maybe be in the ball park.To do it timely anyway.


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## ETXhayman (Jul 19, 2012)

In your case I would say it's not possible. Nobody just walks up and buys well over 1 million dollars worth of equipment and starts out farming 50k acres. 50k acres and the credit line needed to stay on top of it all would be a tremendous challenge for even the most experienced operaters and managers.

Just spit balling here but you would need one or two mechanics for each group of equipment plus operators, plus truck drivers with the proper licensing to haul equipment, plus managers to keep everyone lined out and running smoothly.

So many things to consider. The rabbit hole for an operation that size is much deeper than you might think.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Patro Farms said:


> So you dont think between multiple farms and multiple states 50,000 acres is not possible? even over the course of 9 or more months? Im not talking about one farmer with all 50,000 acres, im talking about multiple farmers with large acreages who hire out their custom harvesting. Definitely not just one person.


How does one go about finding multiple farms in multiple states? I am trying to figure out how one would go about lining up business?

There is no way anyone can plan a baling date with hay. I have 3 leased fields with the owners wanting to know when I will be there. Long range forecast is two weeks of rain. Two of the fields are ryegrass and should have been cut already.

The only two operations who can plan and move from state to state are custom harvesters and the outfits that mow right of ways. Weather can cause minor set backs on those two. It will wreck havoc on a hay business.

All employees are going to need a weekly check, hay or no hay.

Custom baling depends on local customers. These local customers want you there when they need hay cut, all three cuttings. Their survival depends on it.

If a accustom bale operation is doing one cutting then moving down the road, who is the owner going to get to do the other two cuttings? Will you guarantee to be coming back through when their hay is ready again during the window when the hay needs cut again?

Any hay grower with enough hay to hire custom work is going to want someone local that can call.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

To me, with 50,000 acres, I wouldn't dick around with tractor mowers. Krone big m mowers would be my choice. Getting acres under the cutterbar are what matters with custom mowing. You can ted/rake a lot of acres in an hour, but mowing is the slow point. Getting it baled under the right conditions in a timely manner would be damn near an act of God.

Custom cutters on the wheat run struggle to get it done in the time allowed, and no offense, but I can guarantee they are more experienced in time management than you or I.

Answer to the question, could it be done? Sure. But is it likely? My personal opinion is not a snowballs chance in hell. Unless you spend all your great great great grand kids inheritance. Just my $.02


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Nothing wrong with dreaming big.

Better to start with 50 ac and grow that to 500 and maybe one day to 5000. Who knows.. Maybe one day you can get to 50k. Not tomorrow though.

No huge business starts huge without capital. If you have $10 million to lose to start a 50,000 ac operation good for you. If not, here are a few words that inspired me:

Get better before you get bigger.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Get better before you get bigger.

Along the line of what one of my teachers said.

Get good before you go fast.


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm glad I'm a little guy and plan on staying that way. Y'all are making my head spin. To the op, sorry I don't have any advice. :huh:


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Good advice: start your hay business small and local. Stay in school. Get your degree. At that point decide where you want to head with your harvesting business. Maybe bigger maybe better maybe both.

By this time you will have at least a little experience managing employees. It is not for everybody. If it is for you great. Sell sell sell your services and grow the business.

Sales, management, and operations are part of all successful businesses. Which are you good at and which to hire out?


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Impossible? No. Implausible? Yes. 500 acres would be rough for someone's first year just starting out in my opinion.


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## traden86 (May 16, 2013)

Coming from someone who does custom hay (and we don't come close to 50,000 or even 5,000 acres) getting to 500 acres in the first year would be good. I'm not against dreaming big but you've overshot that one. And while I truly enjoy putting up hay, at at the end of the day there isn't big money in the custom haying business.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

traden86 said:


> &#8230;..., at at the end of the day there isn't big money in the custom haying business.


Very true. Profit margins are close.

I was talking to the operator of a large cattle operation. He said they contracted to have their hay cut, raked and baled for $15 per 5x6 roll.

No way the operation doing the work was making any money. Just creating some cash flow and making their real money selling their own hay.


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## traden86 (May 16, 2013)

Wow!! $15 for a 5x6 .... there is no way those guys make any money..


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

In the long run it's cheaper to buy hay then to do it yourself or have someone make it in the cattle world.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Patro Farm,

In 10 years you are going to look back at this idea and laugh your butt off! But you are a go getter, and if you don't spend yourself into the ground you will build yourself a heck of an operation with much smaller goals.

I wish I would have had a little bit of your optimism when I was your age!


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

This is quite a topic Patro! I won't be able to get all I want to say down, but some. I have done custom work for a while now and there are always unplanned events haying. Any where from rain, to people, to break downs, to bugs, to distance, to the planting date. Custom wheat harvesters work because it can stand ripe for a while. A stand of alfalfa or a mix has an ideal window of 3 to 6 days. And that can be several hundred miles north to south at the same time.

I honestly don't think it can happen, the same as a wheat crew. A combine crew can whistle over a field with a 36' head in on pass and be done. A hay guy has at least 3 to 7 to get the crop off of the field, is the trouble. Travel is the worst part I know. It sure sounds like you could manage a crew. If you can place machinery ahead of the season, so there is very little hauling, helps immensely. Two self propelled rotary swathers can keep ahead of five or six round balers. Just because you can cut for 12 hours a day and you might bale for 2 to 4. 
If your going to pick the bales too, that really adds to the mix. Trucks, pickers, loaders, etc..... People and time are the biggest factors. If you could go like a robot and not sleep, we would all be dangerous!

A couple things to think about, get a new rotary swather and put 200 to 250 hours, cutting time, see how much hay gets down and see how many balers it takes? You might be surprised how many acres you can cover. The triple mower idea, I have entertained, just is too much to justify I think. Like mentioned earlier, there is no big margin doing the haying itself, but selling share cropped hay later.

There are quite a few of the New Holland bidirectional tractors up here that push pull. They cover 35' in a pass. Really makes the balers sweat! Usually 2 Vermeer rakes and 3, 5' round balers to keep up. The swather only has to travel 3 mph to get a lot of hay down!

Bottom line is 50,000 is a little much! You might be bite off a 1200 acres the first year, 1 self propelled rotary swather, a swather trailer to move it, 1 170 hp tractor with loader to round bale and load bales with, 1 120 hp tractor with loader as the rake / backup baler tractor, 1 tedder or Vermeer rake. One new round baler. I would have a nice older round baler on hand as backup and the chance you could bale with two before a storm. A side dump goose neck trailer to get round bales to where ever. A truck and a 48' step deck trailer with a tail. Two of every thing would be nice, but not necessary. I would invest in a fuel, service, parts trailer so the pickups are free to run for parts or move bales and such. I have spent many hours thinking and trying different things. I might add at last, this would keep 4 guys busy. Swather man, rake man, baler man, picker/ beer man!


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Patro Farms said:


> so to do 50,000 acres/year do you think 3 mowers 4 rakes/tedders and 4 balers would do it?


No.

Steep learning curve...try 500 before you buy all that iron.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

traden86 said:


> Wow!! $15 for a 5x6 .... there is no way those guys make any money..


I would gladly take that job but would need a 6 bale per acre minimum! Any less bales per acre and I'd be going backwards from my regular rates.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

There was an outfit in Rupert Idaho that sold out this spring that may have had enough equipment, but I doubt it.......


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I was just trying to do the math... My 12' 1983 swather has 25xx hours. So in a bit over 30 years I am guessing it covered 8-10000 acres?


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Patro Farms said:


> Ive been Figuring up kind of what id take to cover this much and Ive been using new equipment in my figuring and doing all the costs and everything that i can think of. Taking out per acre for Loan,Insurance,Fuel,Lube,Labor,Repairs and and then for baling and hauling ive done the same but on a per bale basis. I think ive got the expected costs covered but the breakdowns and such cant really perdict(Thats why I did a repair fund). The reason I put 50,000 is because thats what it will take to pay the loan of in 5-7 years(Which is what my parents friend, who is a loan officer said we could do on new equipment it a most 7 years). Im just wondering like between dairy farms and feedlots up north is there enough of them that contract out their forage harvesting to take the dive in? I have about 12 Years experience, started raking hay when i was 6 years old and been mowing baling and hauling since i was about 10. so the experience isnt a problem i dont think. just wanting some experience guys who contract some baling to help me get an idea if itll work out or not. Im not thinking of just in Missouri, I would like to travel kind of like the grain harvesting guys do. Any tips and info will be greatly appreciated


You had better plan on paying your loan off in one year, because that many acres thru your line of equipment and it will be junk by the end of the first year. Sure as hell not going to make it 5 to 7 years.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

haybaler101 said:


> You had better plan on paying your loan off in one year, because that many acres thru your line of equipment and it will be junk by the end of the first year. Sure as hell not going to make it 5 to 7 years.


Excellent point! Its not going to make it being pushed that hard. If 6x5 bailer @ 2 per acre 100,000 bales ÷3(pretty green machines) 33,000. Your gonna need a fire truck as well


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I have fields over 38 miles.I always say I could farm twice as much if it was in 1 spot.I can't even imagine the extra time it would take if in multi states.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm only spread out 12 miles and its a pain. Lol I can't imagine trying to go from the Chihauhau to Calgary. I went out to look at some new paint a couple years ago. I did the figuring and I would have had to take on some custom work to get it paid off. Which would have required me to buy a bigger line requiring more custom work and so on and so on. My figuring resulted in a neverending spiral of debt that while resulting in enough cash flow to keep feeding the beast would eventually take me from the work that I love and turn me into an office manager people herder. No thanks. As a part of a custom harvest operation I could see it but no way 50,000 acres of hay. You would need several sets of gear pre-staged in at least three different locations. Maybe you could get your start bidding cleanup work behind the big guys and grow from there. Nothing wrong with dreaming big.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

My advice to a farmer in his/her early 20s would be to start without going into debt. I know to some farmers this way of farming/living sounds absurd, but you can save up a lot of money in couple short years without any equipment/car/other loan payments. Pay cash for OK used equipment, run that equipment into the ground while retaining all of your profit because you don't have loan payments and save up for more land to rent/buy, or better/more efficient equipment paid with cash. You may have to start pretty small and maybe not make as much in the short run, but in the long run I think it pays off. Your growth will be in line with your learning curve.
Living below your means pays off in any aspect of life.


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