# The Army Corp Of Engineers.



## Vol

A sickening tale.

Regards, Mike

https://www.agweb.com/article/when-a-farmer-punches-back-at-the-feds-naa-chris-bennett/


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## ozarkian

There will come a time in the near future that our overly bloated government and it's infinite cast of characters that run it;s agencies will drive the American farmer out of existence. As our population continues to grow, people will be faced with starvation. All this to protect a Vernal Pool? We call these MUD HOLES.

Once you lose the generation of people who know how to farm or even have the balls to do it, It will be very hard to recover from this. At that point, America will become dependent on other countries for our food. I think we all know how that story will end.


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## Teslan

So if one used smaller tractors and smaller tillage implements would it be noticed less by these agents then a huge Case tractor and probably big ripper?


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## rjmoses

Despicable; simply despicable.

I ran into the same kind of bull pucks in Chicago with the USFWS, the USFS, the DNR and Cook County Forest Preserve District. Big gov lyin', cheatin' and stealin'!

Ralph


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## Teslan

I've been thinking of this story and I have a question for you guys that live in wetter areas of the country. Are you quite regulated in your areas of what kind of tillage that you can do? Like this guy in CA. Can you go in and just deep rip anything you want or do you have to get all these environment surveys this guy in CA did? As far as I know here we can do any kind of tillage we want. But then except for natural rivers and a few streams no wetland, ponds, seep areas here are natural. They are all a product of irrigation systems and canals. Though I suspect the EPA, Army Corp of Engineers would forget that. If every pond and reservoir would stop filling from the rivers this place would turn extra dry rather quickly. Not one reservoir in Eastern Colorado and even in the mountains is natural. They all were started 120 plus years ago. I had thought around Modesto CA it was somewhat the same.


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## rjmoses

Teslan said:


> Are you quite regulated in your areas of what kind of tillage that you can do? Like this guy in CA.
> 
> Can you go in and just deep rip anything you want or do you have to get all these environment surveys this guy in CA did?
> 
> As far as I know here we can do any kind of tillage we want. But then except for natural rivers and a few streams no wetland, ponds, seep areas here are natural. They are all a product of irrigation systems and canals. Though I suspect the EPA, Army Corp of Engineers would forget that. If every pond and reservoir would stop filling from the rivers this place would turn extra dry rather quickly. Not one reservoir in Eastern Colorado and even in the mountains is natural. They all were started 120 plus years ago. I had thought around Modesto CA it was somewhat the same.


Very regulated! Get fined for ripping, etc., if you're not careful.

Most ground around me is rated HEL--Highly Erodable Land.

Some supervision is appropriate, but, for the most part, being supervised by the unknowing or uneducated is worse, i.e., causes more damage, than being left alone.

Most guys around here try to take very good care of their ground. But, of course, there are a few yo-yo's and, as is normal, they cause pain for everyone else!

Ralph


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## swmnhay

Seems odd AC of E has juristiction over something like this.Seems like there time and resources would be better used on the river systems.

Here the NRCS is the police for soil conservation etc.They are useing satelight imagery now.Last yr I got pics sent to me showing how close I planted to a converted wetland along with a reminder what it could cost me if i crossed the line.


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## PaMike

I think there is some sort of project size threshold where the AC of E kicks in. There is a big shopping mall going in right next to a swamp/marsh area. The project had to be approved by NRCS,AC of E, the township, and one other body. I forget which one...


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## Teslan

swmnhay said:


> Seems odd AC of E has juristiction over something like this.Seems like there time and resources would be better used on the river systems.
> 
> Here the NRCS is the police for soil conservation etc.They are useing satelight imagery now.Last yr I got pics sent to me showing how close I planted to a converted wetland along with a reminder what it could cost me if i crossed the line.


policed from above. How nice.


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## rjmoses

If anybody doesn't think we have surpassed "1984", I can't imagine the size of the rock they've been living under!

Ralph


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## luke strawwalker

ozarkian said:


> There will come a time in the near future that our overly bloated government and it's infinite cast of characters that run it;s agencies will drive the American farmer out of existence. As our population continues to grow, people will be faced with starvation. All this to protect a Vernal Pool? We call these MUD HOLES.
> 
> Once you lose the generation of people who know how to farm or even have the balls to do it, It will be very hard to recover from this. At that point, America will become dependent on other countries for our food. I think we all know how that story will end.


EXACTLY!!!

I've said it before and I'll say it again... "What this country needs is a good FAMINE!"

Nothing straightens out ones priorities like an EMPTY BELLY.

That's what the problem is-- we have an entire GENERATIONS of people who have never seen or been around a farm, and who have NEVER had to face want or a lack of food AT ANY PRICE (famine) who now dictate the rules from "on high" without knowing the first damn thing about what is necessary to provide food... only what they've "read in a book"...

Ultimately, it's going to resolve itself, but the resolution is going to be EXTREMELY painful to millions before it's straightened out...

The enemy isn't in Pyongyang or Moscow or Beijing... the enemy is in WASHINGTON DC... And I think it's becoming abundantly clear that it's going to take a lot more than an "election" to 'drain that swamp'... more like about twenty megatons dropped dead center...

Later! OL J R


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## Vol

In conclusion....

Regards, Mike

http://growingtennessee.com/news/2017/08/duarte-agrees-pay-11-million-settle-case-plowing-land/?utm_source=Growing+Tennessee&utm_campaign=1bb1b01857-growingtennessee-daily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d75710df8e-1bb1b01857-296641129


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## somedevildawg

Wow....cant make this kinda stuff up, 1.1 mil


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## slowzuki

In this part of Canada the wetland rules don't apply to farmland, just can't convert wetland into farmland without hoops to jump through.

This smells a lot like someone who made a bad call at the start and they get so far along they can't admit they're wrong. See that all the time in building code enforcement here. Local fire Marshall made a mistake and made someone pressure test a mile of underground piping to a high pressure, blew it apart under a brand new parking lot. Million plus bucks to repair. The result, now everyone in the state/province has to use the wrong high pressure to test because if he backs down now and admits the mistake he gets sued.


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## slowzuki

It might feel like that but its just a side effect of making hard written rules to try to regulate things it leaves things open to interpretation by people who are not experts on these things. Give a kid a list of written rules to follow and they blindly do it, they don't know any different and they get nothing but trouble if they question. Symptom of badly executed bureaucracy.

Our local health inspection agency that permits septic systems at one point had engineers that could make judgement calls. That was expensive so they had them write up generic designs then let them all go. Now high school level education folks show up with a ruler and hassle you over 1/2" short of fill on a 6 ft high mound or 3" too close to well etc without understanding the biology of how a septic system works or which parts of the generic approved designs are important and which are just there because the sketch had to have a dimension.


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## Waldo

What a load of bs,l was going to say bit here but i think b,s will do


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## 2ndWindfarm

This story continues to play out across the news.. It's hard to get at ALL of the facts and it's easy to jump to conclusions.

But...if you're on the jury and the DOJ is weighing in - Mr. Duerte is probably not "Shirley Temple" here, either.

Case in point - good discussion here on HT just recently about the "Dead Zone" in the Gulf of Mexico - and the role of farming practices in creating said DZ.

The plume of nutient laden soil in the GoM is not the only place in the US that this situation exists. Major river systems that merge with the ocean all have this occurring to some extent.

THAT IS THE REASON people have moved behind the effort to adopt legislation like "Waters of the United States".

Now, indignant rage might be warranted in the CA instance... But, I'll wait for the jury's decision before poking my thumb in the government's eye.


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## swmnhay

Teslan said:


> So if one used smaller tractors and smaller tillage implements would it be noticed less by these agents then a huge Case tractor and probably big ripper?


nope,I have some converted wetlands and last yr received a letter with satlelight imagery to show if I was in compliance or not.In my case I can't plant annual crops on those acres and you could see to the ft were I planted.

Eye in the sky.


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## somedevildawg

2ndWindfarm said:


> This story continues to play out across the news.. It's hard to get at ALL of the facts and it's easy to jump to conclusions.
> But...if you're on the jury and the DOJ is weighing in - Mr. Duerte is probably not "Shirley Temple" here, either.
> Case in point - good discussion here on HT just recently about the "Dead Zone" in the Gulf of Mexico - and the role of farming practices in creating said DZ.
> The plume of nutient laden soil in the GoM is not the only place in the US that this situation exists. Major river systems that merge with the ocean all have this occurring to some extent.
> THAT IS THE REASON people have moved behind the effort to adopt legislation like "Waters of the United States".
> Now, indignant rage might be warranted in the CA instance... But, I'll wait for the jury's decision before poking my thumb in the government's eye.


People didn't necessarily move behind the WOTUS......just to be clear, politicians are different than the citizenry. They usually jump on board something because there is a perceived benefit to them personally......at least that's modus operandi for most I've seen


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## Vol

somedevildawg said:


> People didn't necessarily move behind the WOTUS......just to be clear, politicians are different than the citizenry. They usually jump on board something because there is a perceived benefit to them personally......at least that's modus operandi for most I've seen


Before WOTUS was enacted, our members were writing to our Representatives and to the EPA....to encourage Reps to vote against OR voice displeasure against it to the EPA. It was stated that at that time, 98% of the US citizenry did not know of or was aware of anything WOTUS.

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan

swmnhay said:


> nope,I have some converted wetlands and last yr received a letter with satlelight imagery to show if I was in compliance or not.In my case I can't plant annual crops on those acres and you could see to the ft were I planted.
> 
> Eye in the sky.


That doesn't happen here. Yet....... There are no natural wetlands besides right by the rivers. But I'm sure they are watching none the less. But man I don't like this at all. Might as well just turn over the farm ground to the government now. They want to tell you how to run your life anyways. I'm looking forward to being just like Venezuela in the future.


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## 2ndWindfarm

Vol said:


> Before WOTUS was enacted, our members were writing to our Representatives and to the EPA....to encourage Reps to vote against OR voice displeasure against it to the EPA. It was stated that at that time, 98% of the US citizenry did not know of or was aware of anything WOTUS.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I would agree that most Americans are not well versed in understanding the issues surrounding the country's waterways and deltas.

Ignorance is not a valid defense... Against efforts to resolve problems.

It's just another hurdle to get over.

Takes time and patience - like climate change - before folk's begin to acknowledge the problem.


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## Vol

2ndWindfarm said:


> Takes time and patience - like climate change - before folk's begin to acknowledge the problem.


And learn that less than half of the propaganda put out by various sources supposedly in the know is factual....it certainly does take time to learn who is on the "take" and who is sound.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

2ndWindfarm said:


> Ignorance is not a valid defense... Against efforts to resolve problems.


Nor is overreaction and misinterpretation of existing laws. Thankfully, wiser judgement will soon rectify EPA's error.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

2ndWindfarm said:


> I would agree that most Americans are not well versed in understanding the issues surrounding the country's waterways and deltas.
> Ignorance is not a valid defense... Against efforts to resolve problems.
> It's just another hurdle to get over.
> Takes time and patience - like climate change - before folk's begin to acknowledge the problem.


The climates been changing, sometimes much more radically than anything now, for many millions of years, 
Climate change is just like health care, it's just another scheme to transfer wealth from one group to another.


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## bluefarmer

Y'all may have seen this before, however someone that signed that petition, could very well be in line to tell us how to run our farms.


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## 2ndWindfarm

Just read in Capital Press that Daurte settled with the Feds for $1.1 Mil. Pretty hard to get the details of the case.

But... Deep ripping with a subsoiler on seasonally wet land is probably not advisable without a permit.


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## Vol

2ndWindfarm said:


> Just read in Capital Press that Daurte settled with the Feds for $1.1 Mil. Pretty hard to get the details of the case.


You could have read it here nine days ago in post #12 above.

Regards, Mike


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## RuttedField

I run into this problem all the time, even though technically as a 9th generation farm I am grandfathered. It stems from former fields growing up into forest because we farmed potatoes (dry ground only) and stopped using horses. Now that we raise sheep, those fields (now forest) need to be reclaimed.

Really the problem runs into politicians not wanting to be labeled an anti-environmental. The Swampbuster's Act of 1985 and succeeding Farm Bills should have been disposed of years ago.

Working wetland IS the answer to any perceived climate change! I can see where back in 1985 the only answer to farming wet ground was draining it, but today with tracked equipment, knowledge about soil, and animal health we can use wetter ground for our advantage.

Here is the kicker, as a logger I can cut any tree in wetland, remove the stump, build roads and even ditch...all of which is 100% legal, but the second I say it is for farming I cannot do anything.

As for agricultural land being exempted in the USA, technically it is...because they cannot limit where a farmer grazes their animals therefore it supposedly meets exemption class. The exemption clause never says anything about hay or row crops though, which the USDA says is against the law to raise in wetlands. It falls under "limited agriculture use".

BTW: I have been writing letters to my congressman about Swampbusters for years. I need more farmland and naturally all my current fields are on the higher, better ground.


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## Ray 54

Not so hard to get details about the Duarte case, has been articles in all the west coast farm media from the beginning of his fighting it.

Tillage was to plant a wheat crop,there was a history of growing wheat on all of it in dry years. The government snowflake called furrow left from a chisel plowing mountain ranges. If tillage is going to kill all ferry shrimp in vernal pools there would not have been any to kill now.

Another nail in the coffin for all food production in the U S . Someone attempted to stand up to Army Corps and EPA . They come back with 45 MILLION in fines and fees if he would of lost. His settlement has not been made clear yet but the published number is 1.1 million. The Judge had already shown his colors when he ruled 12 inches or less was deep tillage. I truly understand why he caved but to bad for all food production this case didn't go all the way.

Luke has put is so correctly we will all go hungry before the few that so want to rule will have any understanding of farming.


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