# How do I mix alfalfa into existing grass hay stands?



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have a lot of customers asking me for alfalfa grass mixes. 
Is it difficult to get alfalfa growing into a pretty dense stand of grass? 
What's the basic procedure to get started?
Thanks.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Couple of questions:

What kind of grass? OG/fescue/timothy/?

What ratio of grass-alfalfa are you looking for? 90% grass/10% alfalfa up to 10% grass/90% alfalfa?

How weed-free is your field currently? What kind of weeds exist today?

Ralph


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Kill it and start over. You could try a less than lethal dose of roundup to stunt your grass and then interseed your alfalfa, but that's really tricky. If your grass stand really is thick, getting anything else started in there will be a challenge.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Like the others said pretty difficult to get alf started in grass.If your grass stand was thin it may work.

I'd vote for killing it off and starting over also.Maybe get more desirable grasses then you have now also??New improved varieties yield more also.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

With your dense stand of grass, you will definitely need to suppress the stand. Either glyphosate (RoundUp) or paraquat (Gramoxone) can be used, check with you local chemical supplier for suggested rates.

Here in Nebraska, some ranchers have had success in late summer, interseeding birdsfoot trefoil, red clover, and white clover into wet and subirrigated meadows using 0.5-1.0 lbs/acre glyphosate 24-48 hours before seeding.

I think Gramoxone would be a better choice, as it only desicates any existing growth, not generally killing any perennial plants. But I understand that it is very nasty to work with.

The following is from the UNL Extension publication EC130 2013 Guide for Weed Management, page 134

*Sod Seeding (legumes into grass)*

2.0 pt. Gramoxone SL

Before or immediately after legume seeding

Add NIS (0.25% v/v) per 100 gal spray solution. Suppresses established sod. Seed legumes with a sod seeder. If grass is less than 3 inches, use lower rate. During year of establishment, graze intensively for short periods only. Add X-77 surfactant.

*Sod Seeding ( Native grass planted no-till)*

16.0-32.0 oz Glyphosate

Spring on cool season grasses

Suppresses established sod. Seed grasses with a sod seeder. Do not graze seeded area until dormancy after second growing season. Apply in no more than 10.0 gal water per acre and add 2 qt X-77 and 17lb ammonium sulfate per 100 gallons.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I do have 2 other stands that are thinner. They are almost begging for something to be seeded into the tiny bare spots. Maybe they could be seeded in September/October once growth has slowed after its been mowed off for last time???? 
Was looking for a 30% alfalfa, 70% grasses mix.
Can alfalfa take root in late summer early fall after final cutting?


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

The attached is yield data after seeding legumes into supressed smooth brome.

From Minnesota Agricultural Exoeriment Station Bulletin 597-1993

(MES Distribution Center Item SB-5963-F)

View attachment Scan_Doc0001.pdf


Hopefully anyone who want to view it can open the attachment, otherwise it is available on line


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't know about there but getting legumes mixed with grass to dry here is a huge pain. By the time you get the grass ready to bale the legume is still wet in the stem, but you can't use a tedder on it without beating the tar out of the legume.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> I don't know about there but getting legumes mixed with grass to dry here is a huge pain. By the time you get the grass ready to bale the legume is still wet in the stem, but you can't use a tedder on it without beating the tar out of the legume.


That's strange....most fellas I know that have the mix says the alfalfa dries better(faster) with grass.

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

What kind of grass?

OG--I would no-till about 8# alfalfa in late August.
Timothy -- About 6# in late July/early August.
Fescue -- I wouldn't mess with it.
Smooth Brome -- Maybe 5# anytime August.

I would try to make sure that the field is kept reasonably short to allow the alfalfa to germinate and get fairly well established.

Late fall planting may not give the alfalfa enough time to get established before the first hard freeze. I like to give fall plantings at least 8 weeks before the first freeze date.

Alternatively: I would broadcast 10#, maybe more, mid to late February on top of snow (frost seeding). But I would make sure the field is clipped fairly short so that there is bare ground available but not so short as to damage the crowns. The down side here is a good grass stand will smother a high percentage of the emerging alfalfa in the spring.

Not being in your area, I'm just speculating what I would do hereabouts.

Just thinking.

Ralph


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Vol said:


> That's strange....most fellas I know that have the mix says the alfalfa dries better(faster) with grass.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I agree, in our area alfalfa that has any percentage of grass generally dries much better than straight alfalfa.

Check with your local cow college, but here the cut off to plant alfalfa is the end of August, you need plenty of time for it to get roots established and reserves built up before the first killing frost and winter sets in.

I've done it once before in an old cow pasture and intended to spray the grass with roundup right after I got it planted as dad had some other spraying to do and we wanted to be done for the year before flushing the tank out. Started raining the next day and drizzled about everyday for a week then we had alfalfa starting to come up so no roundup. Turned out to be a really good stand, but got lucky with the rain as well. We drilled about 10 lbs of alfalfa in using a great plains no-till drill then went over it again at a 30 degree angle to the first pass.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

slowzuki said:


> I don't know about there but getting legumes mixed with grass to dry here is a huge pain. By the time you get the grass ready to bale the legume is still wet in the stem, but you can't use a tedder on it without beating the tar out of the legume.


I'll agree with this. Though I don't ted hay at all. In addition if you have parts of the fields with more alfalfa then grass then other parts with more grass then alfalfa your bale lengths won't be uniform. At least in my experience this happened with both Hesston and NH balers. . Also in my area by the time the grass is ready to bale it is to dry and the alfalfa will end up being just stems. And if you bale when the alfalfa is ready and won't shatter leaves then it is too wet for the grass hay. So therefore I would rather not bale or grow an alfalfa/grass mix.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

rjmoses said:


> ...I would try to make sure that the field is kept reasonably short to allow the alfalfa to germinate and get fairly well established.
> 
> Late fall planting may not give the alfalfa enough time to get established before the first hard freeze. I like to give fall plantings at least 8 weeks before the first freeze date....


Good advice from rjmoses.

Try to time your last cutting so that you can seed with at least 6 weeks before frost, more is better

I personally would go the interseeding route, especially if the the field already smooth . If it is rough, Iwould go for at least a enough tillage to get it the way you want it then put in a full rate of alfalfa, and add some of the more desirable grass species, especially if they were not already present.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

Teslan said:


> I'll agree with this. Though I don't ted hay at all. In addition if you have parts of the fields with more alfalfa then grass then other parts with more grass then alfalfa your bale lengths won't be uniform. At least in my experience this happened with both Hesston and NH balers. . Also in my area by the time the grass is ready to bale it is to dry and the alfalfa will end up being just stems. And if you bale when the alfalfa is ready and won't shatter leaves then it is too wet for the grass hay. So therefore I would rather not bale or grow an alfalfa/grass mix.


One of the advantages of mixed hay is faster drying.

Here in NE Nebraska, my grass in mixed hay is usually ready to bale a day ahead of the alfalfa, although second cutting sometimes is equal to alfalfa drying time.

I deal with seed customers generally in an area from Montana to New Mexico, and east from there to Ohio, Tennessee, Arkansas and Texas Things must be much different in your environment.

I am familiar with Weld county and would think grass would dry at least as fast as alfalfa, unless there is a *very* high percentage of vegetative grass.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Sept/Oct is to late to seed alfalfa.Here it should be done by Aug 15.

Maybe spray it off with Roundup around Aug 10 then cut it a couple days later and bale it off.Seed it to the dead sod.(Alf can be sprayed with RU and harvested,I'm not sure if grass is)

Here is a pretty good article on Late Summer seeding.(note it says NOT to seed in fall)

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/LSAlfalfa.html


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I was thinking of doing this after listening to feedback from customers. Seems like many of them want Timothy/alfalfa mix bricks. I had one customer show me his. Pretty cool how one bale contained both mixed together. 
I know I want to improve my stands, listen to customer feedback and ultimately build a base of customers that will lead to greater profits than selling mushroom hay at $100/ton.

However, after dealing with the fussy ones on the weekends, sometimes I'd rather just be a hack and make 400-500 acres of mushroom hay, fertilize it and maximize the yield of anything green that will grow in the fields for max tonnage. That way there's no fussing around. Grow and ship. Love it.

Wish I had a crystal ball to know if more land is coming my way. If it was, I'd rather go the hack route. I'm getting too old to deal with fussy people, I like bigger equipment would rther run a SP discbine cutting big fields and a simpler, less stressful lifestyle constantly worrying about moisture, weeds, spray, handling small bales, etc. 
I totally appreciate and respect those who want to make a really clean, fresh $10 dollar small square, too. One member here suggested I stop worrying about acquiring acreage and instead focus on improving the acreage I have. I see his point. There's an honor in making hay fit for a race horse. 
There's just something so much more attractive to me about having lots of land to mow, big tonnage and less focus on all the nit picky stuff..... 
Sorry to get off track. Kinda sucks sometimes being new and not knowing which to focus on. Quality or quantity. Just that quantity seems more fun.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'd say quality is more fun. You should be proud of what you do and growing huge tonnage of weed/grass mix isn't exactly something to boast about as it doesn't take much effort or talent. I like growing good hay. There is pride to be had in it. But if you like big, new equipment (and lots of payments) and a large rented land base (and lots of constant competition and rent stress), you're more than welcome to your opinion.

Try to improve your stands. If you have lousy luck, you still have the mulch outlet. If you have success, you're far better off. When you're getting $200/T instead of $100/T, I have to think you'll like that and be proud of it, even if it took more attention to detail and the stress of the occasional profanity-filled, pop-up thunderstorm on otherwise perfect hay.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I was thinking of doing this after listening to feedback from customers. Seems like many of them want Timothy/alfalfa mix bricks. I had one customer show me his. Pretty cool how one bale contained both mixed together.
> I know I want to improve my stands, listen to customer feedback and ultimately build a base of customers that will lead to greater profits than selling mushroom hay at $100/ton.
> 
> However, after dealing with the fussy ones on the weekends, sometimes I'd rather just be a hack and make 400-500 acres of mushroom hay, fertilize it and maximize the yield of anything green that will grow in the fields for max tonnage. That way there's no fussing around. Grow and ship. Love it.
> ...


You have a good point I think JD. Especially in your area that has so much humidity and moisture to make putting up premium hay kinda difficult. I had some weedy hay this year out of one field and sold it for cow hay at $213 a ton. The cow people aren't nearly as picky or needy as the horsey people. But I also like making very good quality hay also. I can generally deal with the pickiness of horsey people, but simply not dealing with the difficult ones. For example the other day a guy that I've sold to in the past year or so had decided that he is only going to buy per ton from me. It's kind of a hassle, but ok. So I told him alright $300 a ton. Then he said, but they are selling grass hay for $260/ton at the local auction. I said then you better go to that auction and take whatever is there. He didn't like that too much and I haven't heard from him since he said he had to talk it over with his wife. I might not answer his calls anymore if he calls.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

And that's just it. It's not easy to grow hay in the mid Atlantic climate. Sometimes I get tired of the weekend calls and lads, the "experts" that know everything, loading 60k pickups trying not to scratch anything, etc. 
it's easier for me to make tonnage than fuss with perfection.

I think what I am going to do, is try both and see how it goes. I can spin up over a thousand round bales no problem. Maybe I can also take some time to set aside some real clean stuff for a few customers that need it. Keep my options open.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I like alf with grass stands. Dry better, insure a little crop in a dry year and spread insect risk . However I am going to have to switch to pure stands for a few years because of weed pressure. Rup alfalfa on best soils and back to pure timothy or orchard or brome on the balance.

Most of my attempts at interseeding haven't been worth the effort.

No-till seeding has worked far better than I've expected, if you can keep the stand clean.

JD, I think all you need now is some cattle hay customers for your mid quality hay to compliment your operation and you'll have it made.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> And that's just it. It's not easy to grow hay in the mid Atlantic climate. Sometimes I get tired of the weekend calls and lads, the "experts" that know everything, loading 60k pickups trying not to scratch anything, etc.
> it's easier for me to make tonnage than fuss with perfection.
> 
> I think what I am going to do, is try both and see how it goes. I can spin up over a thousand round bales no problem. Maybe I can also take some time to set aside some real clean stuff for a few customers that need it. Keep my options open.


I'd say "I feel your pain", but I have no respect, or rather, a great deal of disdain, for the person who originally said this (Clinton).

I was just going over my notes for the last two weeks. I have taught 9 three hour horsemanship lessons, rode an average of 2 horses/day on 8 of 14 days, cut and baled 50 ac. of hay, re-stacked 100+ bales, welded up cheap metal safety guards on tedder, shredded waterways, sprayed 45 ac. of OG, fixed fencing in two pastures, sprayed brush on all fence lines, and those are what I made notes on.

Oh yeah--And, went out partying two Saturday nights!

Maybe that's why I'm feeling a little tired.

Ralph

Run hard...or go home.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I mean if you take straight grass and mix a legume into it, not a legume stand with grass in it.

We are almost all straight grass here due to the wetness. Introducing legumes into grass in any significant amount slows things down. Clover isn't too bad for dry down but any of the larger ones are. We have one field that was seeded with vetch (not the weed type) and it would drive a preacher to swear trying to get that dry compared to say a timothy field.



Vol said:


> That's strange....most fellas I know that have the mix says the alfalfa dries better(faster) with grass.
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

JD, cutoff in your area for alfalfa seeding is around September 10. I also agree that knocking back your grass with herbicides is a little dicey. Too much you kill your grass, too little your alfafa seedlings choke. I will say some of the prettiest hay I've ever seen was alfalfa/grass mix.In today's market you should be able to get upwards of $250 a ton at the local auctions. You will need to spray for leafhoppers midsummer and watch for weevils in the spring.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I can see where that might be tough as grass still grows strong through September.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

discbinedr said:


> ... You will need to spray for leafhoppers midsummer and watch for weevils in the spring.


I have never had to spray a mixed stand in 19 years on this farm, even when I and my neighbors were spraying pure alfalfa stands.

Although I have not needed to spray my pure alfalfa stands near as often as my neighbors. I attribute that to only taking three cuttings. Third cutting is usually early to mid August, so my stand has plenty of time to get ready for winter.

Fourth cutting is grazed after the alfalfa plants are dormant in late October or November, which does minimal damage to the plant. The hoof action stirs up the soil surface and grazing breaks open the stems, both exposing overwintering pests and eggs to the weather. At least that what was explained to me by an agricultural entomologist. He said that mixed stands will have a higher insect population with a much better balance of predator/pray species. Also he indicated that leafhoppers ride in on the wind currents, and to a large extent select fields to drop on by color. He also noted that is why the leafier and darker green the alfalfa variety, the likelier it was to be infested by leafhoppers. Grass alfalfa mixes are usually lighter colored than pure alfalfa, and therefore are a less desirable target.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

If you do end up interseeding alfalfa you might want to use a leafhopper resistant variety so you don't have the aggrevation of having to spray insecticide. I don't know much of nothing about alfalfa but I am planning on sowing a pure stand next spring and will be using a leafhopper resistant variety for sure as I hate having to spray. It's just my thinking that some of your fields that have a thin stand of grass with some bare places would be the best choice for no tilling alfalfa into them and not a thick healthy stand of grass.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

prairie said:


> I have never had to spray a mixed stand in 19 years on this farm, even when I and my neighbors were spraying pure alfalfa stands.
> 
> Although I have not needed to spray my pure alfalfa stands near as often as my neighbors. I attribute that to only taking three cuttings. Third cutting is usually early to mid August, so my stand has plenty of time to get ready for winter.
> 
> Fourth cutting is grazed after the alfalfa plants are dormant in late October or November, which does minimal damage to the plant. The hoof action stirs up the soil surface and grazing breaks open the stems, both exposing overwintering pests and eggs to the weather. At least that what was explained to me by an agricultural entomologist. He said that mixed stands will have a higher insect population with a much better balance of predator/pray species. Also he indicated that leafhoppers ride in on the wind currents, and to a large extent select fields to drop on by color. He also noted that is why the leafier and darker green the alfalfa variety, the likelier it was to be infested by leafhoppers. Grass alfalfa mixes are usually lighter colored than pure alfalfa, and therefore are a less desirable target.


I take it you've had no problems with damaging the crowns of the alfalfa from all the "hoof action"? Or do you plant a grazing variety with the sunken crowns?

Purdue recommends a minimum of 8-10" or regrowth here before going into winter to help prevent smothering of the crop by certain snow conditions.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> If you do end up interseeding alfalfa you might want to use a leafhopper resistant variety so you don't have the aggrevation of having to spray insecticide. I don't know much of nothing about alfalfa but I am planning on sowing a pure stand next spring and will be using a leafhopper resistant variety for sure as I hate having to spray. It's just my thinking that some of your fields that have a thin stand of grass with some bare places would be the best choice for no tilling alfalfa into them and not a thick healthy stand of grass.


Definitely on the leaf hopper resistant, I've planted a few fields of it so far and have been very happy with it, this is the third year for the one and in it's first year was almost my highest yielder and has gone consistently been the top yielder by far the last two years. This is comparing overall yield with records from my other fields.


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## richard m (Jul 10, 2013)

Don`t think you should try and "stunt" the grass with round up. That is the start of how weeds get resistance to round up


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

mlappin said:


> I take it you've had no problems with damaging the crowns of the alfalfa from all the "hoof action"? Or do you plant a grazing variety with the sunken crowns?
> 
> Purdue recommends a minimum of 8-10" or regrowth here before going into winter to help prevent smothering of the crop by certain snow conditions.


I graze the fields only when the ground is dry or frozen. If we get wet weather I move them off and graze stockpiled pasture until things dry up. The other thing that helps is that I usually graze weaned calves instead of cows, and move them to other grazing as soon as they have the field grazed off.

I plant several varieties, a couple with deeper set crowns, but I have not seen that those varieties withstand the late fall/early grazing any better.

The alfalfa fields are only grazed after they have gone dormant and stopped growing, usually in late October and early November.

The bad thing is that some years, due to frost dates and wet weather, it gets a little late and a lot of the leaves fall off before it gets grazed. But it is a way better program than taking a fourth cutting in September. Every time I have done a fourth cutting, I have regretted it. There is usually not as much tonnage as it appears when it is cut, is hard to dry, and doesn't allow enough growth to build root reserves before winter and shortens stand life.


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

JD

I think there's value in both. But just like you and others have said, the value is in what your customers want. That's where the money will come from. The thing that drives me crazy around here (I'm sure this happens everywhere) is the people who want the top notch hay at the low walmart price. I've had customers go to the dark side, every customer that's come back was a good paying customer, and they figured out that quality was more important to them. Even if it costs a little more than the quantity junk Joe Blow was selling down the street. I take pride in that. I take pride in having the highest quality, cleanest hay around. That word gets out, and the good customers come calling. However, I sell good quality cattle hay as well. Quantity is a little more important there than the quality. Having said that, nothing leaves my farm that isn't good quality for the type of hay it is. A diverse organization/operation is the operation that continues to thrive when one piece of the operation hits hard times. So having a little quality and a little quantity isnt a bad thing. But I believe the quality will also sell the quantity because people learn they can trust your word when you tell them what they are buying. You walk into a store, there's a reason certain items are in the store front window. And there's a reason some items are in the backof the store. The quality gets the quantity sold in my opinion.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

This gets off track, but it may not cost that much more to go from $100 hay to $200 hay, so for a little bit of input you double your income...... That's a no-brainer. A mixed stand will still benifit from an N application in spring. A lot of guys try to cut it early to not spray for weevils, but leafhoppers should be sprayed for, cause it will yield more hay, and be greener. Se if anybody else in your area is planting leafhopper resistant, I think that stuff is worthless..... When we had some we still had to spray..... The grass will help the alfalfa dry a little better, and it will make some pretty hay. I think I'd kill everything, especailly in tose field that had small thin/dead spots...... that's just an invitation for weeds. Yu should begin spraying the round-up, right now. You should have it planted pretty soon, but like was said you can plant to about the 10th of sept. I think you guys are a little warmer than us, and I know that guys have planted later already. But the earlier a guy gets it planted now, the more growing it will do this fall, and the better of a crop it will give in spring. I think I'd shoot for more alfalfa, say at least 50% alfalfa, cause some of it will die in a few years - if you plant more now, the stand can last longer...... plant enough, and you can keep that stand for up to 15 years or so, if everthing else goes right for you.

Rodney


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