# Johnson Grass



## Hay Commander (Jul 16, 2014)

Well with all the continuous rain I haven't been able to get into the fields at all. I was able to take a batwing raised all the way up into about 30 ac and cut the tops of the weeds and Johnson grass before it went to seed. Those fields actually look pretty good! Unfortunately, we have 60 or so more ac that looks totally infested with this Sh!t and I don't know what to do. Should be willing to sacrifice the OG and Timothy to save Alfalfa? If so what should I do, cut and roll it to get it out of the field and spray Poast or Select and try to salvage 3rd cutting?? Thanks in advance. 
Wayne


----------



## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

Actually Johnson Grass ain't bad it cut before it heads out. Weeds not so much. Should have done what they do down here and call it mixed grass hay ... means it has weeds and what ever is there.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

If you use Pastora it will leave your Orchard grass.

Regards, Mike


----------



## CBarM (Mar 1, 2015)

Johnson grass doesn't hurt much especially for cattle. If it's been stressed or highly fertilized though be careful of Prussic acid or nitrate poison. I've fed and baked tons of the stuff it makes almost of good cow hay as Sudan. Some around here actually have Johnson grass fields they grow fertilize and bale for cow hay. In horse hay a lil won't hurt. People always forget horses in pasture setting or in the wild eat Johnson grass.


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

CBarM said:


> Johnson grass doesn't hurt much especially for cattle.


I recently learned something at a pest management program put on by our local cattlemen's association.

There are cattle farmers in my state who raise Johnson grass as their primary hay forage. The sugar cane aphid has adapted to now dine on Johnson grass and other sorghums. Until very recently the aphid was limited to sugar cane. Some farmers were upset because it was destroying their Johnson grass hay crop.

Most of us at the meeting wanted to know how we could acquire some sugar cane aphids to release on the Johnson grass in our Bermuda hay fields.


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

When I was row cropping, the easiest way to get rid of johnsongrass that we found was to use a Spiedel Weed Wiper... it's basically a wick applicator. Run a 33% Roundup solution through it and wipe it on, go in both directions in heavy areas... it'll burn it right down and kill the rhizomes... pretty cheap too, and won't hurt anything growing underneath it. We could even get pigweeds/palmer amaranth too if there was enough height difference... if we could get a wipe on about 6-8 inches or so of pigweed/amaranth it'd kill it.. if 4-6 inches or less it'd usually just burn the top out of it and set it back awhile.

When we switched to all cattle, the easiest way we found to eliminate johsongrass was to let the cows just eat the stuff to death-- they'll totally wipe the stuff out, because it's "ice cream grass" and they'll eat it before anything else if given a choice-- so they'll graze it SO hard that they totally kill it rhizomes and all...

Later! OL JR


----------



## Hay Commander (Jul 16, 2014)

Thanks again for the replies. I actually got a call from a local hay broker last night asking about this hay field. She wants to buy it all and was quick to remind me that it was no good to her for re-sale, but she wanted it to feed her own horses and cattle. I think she will pay $3.00 a bale out of the field for it. Probably a good deal for us at this time..... Last year she bought 2000 bales of grass hay and it took 3 months to get all our money from her. No credit this year!


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So can horses eat mature johnsons grass?


----------



## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Yes horses can eat & do well on Johnson grass in all stages except when it has Prussic acid or nitrate poisoning. Horse owners are the ones that think horses can't eat JG. Heck I've even been told by horse owner the JG will give a horse diabetes. I think horses aren't affected by Prussic acid poisoning as acutely as ruminant animals. Where I live horses lived on JG & red top cane hay for yrs before Coastal was introduced & sprigged. Most animals will walk away from Coastal hay to eat GOOD JG hay. I dislike JG in a Coastal field just because JG dries slower than Coastal and horsey people don't like it.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When is the Prussic acid phase? I thought it was when it was a young plant.


----------



## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> When is the Prussic acid phase? I thought it was when it was a young plant.


Prussic acid can be caused from stress such as lack of rain then rain causing accelerated growth or frost. If JG has Prussic acid when baled the PA will dissipate after hay has been stored about 3 or 4 wks. On the other hand Nitrate poisoning never goes away


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> So can horses eat mature johnsons grass?





Hay Commander said:


> She wants to buy it all and was quick to remind me that it was no good to her for re-sale, but she wanted it to feed her own horses and cattle.


That is a sales pitch. She does not want you to think she is making money from selling the hay, wants a cheap price.

You can bet when hay gets scarce that she will "have some mixed grass hay for sale that her horses are doing well on". How nice of her to share her personal hay to help a person out.


----------



## Hay Commander (Jul 16, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> That is a sales pitch. She does not want you to think she is making money from selling the hay, wants a cheap price.
> You can bet when hay gets scarce that she will "have some mixed grass hay for sale that her horses are doing well on". How nice of her to share her personal hay to help a person out.


----------



## Hay Commander (Jul 16, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> That is a sales pitch. She does not want you to think she is making money from selling the hay, wants a cheap price.
> You can bet when hay gets scarce that she will "have some mixed grass hay for sale that her horses are doing well on". How nice of her to share her personal hay to help a person out.


----------



## Hay Commander (Jul 16, 2014)

Amen to that Brother^^^^^


----------



## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

I want nothing to do with Johnson grass. Complete junk.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

My exact thoughts Colby. HERE, the only people that feed JG are those that are too lazy or cheap to fight it. Crabgrass is high in protein but I am not going to intentionally grow it.

Regards, Mike


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> When is the Prussic acid phase? I thought it was when it was a young plant.


Prussic acid (hydrogen cyanide acid, basically) is basically only a problem when the plant is stressed... the most typical causes are either drought or frost. It can happen to basically ANY stage of growth, but the real cause is stress brought on by environmental factors. In drought, the plant can go into a "semi-dormant" phase, rolling the leaves and attempting to retain as much water as possible, waiting for wetter conditions to resume growth. When the rains finally DO arrive, the plant then usually 'goes crazy' and experiences a growth flush to "make up for lost time" when it was semi-dormant during the drought. It is in this lush "green-up growth flush" stage that Prussic acid levels can rise to lethal levels. The plants will naturally metabolize out or excrete the Prussic acid through the stomata in the leaves over time, so this "phase" is only temporary. Also, Prussic acid poisoning is only a problem for GRAZING the affected grass (and similar harvesting processes that retain the plant's moisture, like silage, green-chop, etc). Hay that is cut and cured for dry hay properly, will not have Prussic acid, because hydrogen cyanide will escape with the plant moisture into the air as the hay cures, removing it from the hay. Grazing animals feeding on lush green plants filled with juices containing dissolved hydrogen cyanide can die from even a single mouthful under certain conditions... Frost also can induce the plants to produce hydrogen cyanide via the stress response. The frosted johnsongrass plants will be burned by the frost, but if the frost is untimely and warm "Indian summer" conditions return, the plants can green up and undergo a similar "green up growth flush" that is accompanied by high hydrogen cyanide concentrations. That is why johnsongrass that has been frosted, is recommended NOT to allow grazing animals to access it for at LEAST a week to ten days after the frost, or after the green-up following a rain event after a long dry spell-- after a week to ten days, the hydrogen cyanide levels should have fallen naturally through plant respiration to levels no longer dangerous to animals. Of course cutting it for hay and allowing it to cure for "dry hay" will also eliminate the Prussic acid, along with the plant's moisture which evaporates during the curing process...

The other risk with johnsongrass (and sorghum/sudan and some other grasses, which also suffer much the same problems, even prussic acid to some extent since they're all related to one another more or less, even corn and grain sorghum) is NITRATE POISONING. Heavily fertilized fields that experience a considerable drought are the most prone to nitrate poisoning. The plants will take up nitrogen as part of their natural metabolic processes, in order to grow and produce food inside the plant. However, in drought, the plants lack the water for a normal metabolic and growth rate, while still in the presence of highly fertilized soils containing large amounts of readily available nitrogen. SO, the plants take in this nitrogen with whatever moisture the roots can glean from the soil, and since the plants do not have enough moisture to grow or have a normal metabolic rate (since normal metabolism in plants requires open stomata in the leaves to exchange carbon dioxide from the atmosphere into the plant and excrete oxygen into the air, creating a pathway for the loss of water through the stomata) the drought-stressed plants close their stomata as much as possible to retain precious water, and go "semi-dormant" with a greatly reduced metabolism. The unused nitrogen is merely "stored" in the plant tissues, awaiting the time when rains will occur and the plant can then readily and quickly use this stored nitrogen for rapid growth and metabolism, to "make up for lost time" during the semi-dormant period in the drought... If the forage is harvested in the drought or grazed off in drought WITHOUT getting rain and a "growth flush" to use up this stored nitrogen, it will remain in the plant tissues as nitrates. Unlike Prussic acid, which is highly mobile and evaporates into the atmosphere, nitrates are highly stable and WILL remain in the plant tissues, even concentrate as the moisture evaporates from the plants as they dry down. This nitrate will then pass into the bloodstream of livestock feeding on the forage later, and can kill them as it builds up in the blood and blocks the hemoglobin's ability to carry oxygen to the animal's body... the blood essentially turns to 'chocolate milk' and will have a ruddy brown appearance, instead of the bright red appearance of "normal" blood... The animal basically asphyxiates. The only "cure" for excess nitrate levels in forage is DILUTION-- hay from suspect crops/conditions should be nitrate tested and either not fed if excess nitrates is found, or carefully doled out and blended with fodder or feed that is either low or no-excess nitrate level, so that the nitrate intake by the animals is kept below the danger levels, and the animals can safely tolerate and excrete the levels of nitrate their exposed to. In drought, hay is usually in short supply, and in the even that corn or grain sorghum crops fail, the temptation is there to harvest them for animal feed as balage or dry hay, but crops are particularly prone to nitrate poisoning due to the heavy fertilizer levels applied to crop fields to maximize grain production in a "normal" year... nitrogen which isn't used in a drought year but readily available to be stored by the crop plants. If in doubt, TEST!!!

Later! OL JR


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Colby said:


> I want nothing to do with Johnson grass. Complete junk.


Depends on your area...

Johnsongrass was originally IMPORTED to the US and planted specifically as a high-value, high productivity animal forage. It is not native to the United States. You will find that MOST of our most valuable forages have a similar history.

If johnsongrass is grazed or hayed at the proper time, it is literally "ice cream grass"... cows will eat it preferentially over ANY other grass in a field, if given a choice. They will eat it SO readily that, as early graziers found out, they will "graze it to death" by keeping the plants eaten off at the ground, until the roots and rhizomes eventually die, or eating off seedling johsongrass before it can produce sufficient roots or rhizomes to survive. That is why the easiest way to eliminate johsongrass is via continuous grazing! Johsongrass in thick stands and cut just before or in very early boot stage is usually very leafy and makes excellent hay. If only growing in sporadic "bunches" or allowed to get overly mature (producing large seed heads) it can get very stemmy and the feed value deteriorates, and it's much harder to cure properly for good hay, as well as being of lower quality. Johnsongrass is "kissing cousins" to popular forage grasses such as red top cane, sorghum/sudan, even grain sorghum, and to a lesser extent, corn. Nobody considers these "absolute junk".

The key, as with most things, is HANDLING IT PROPERLY. Yes, overmature, drying-down stemmy overgrown johnsongrass in a bermuda field of prime horse hay can be "junk", but then so can *anything*. Properly handled, johnsongrass can be an extremely valuable forage grass for grazing and hay. In fact, my Dad and Granddad paid for their 160 acre farm in the 60's baling and selling johnsongrass hay to local buyers, including the auction barns, and putting up hay for their own use. When they finally had the money to fence the farm and build a cattle herd, the cows quickly grazed the johnsongrass to the point of extinction on the place.

Those early graziers quickly passed over johnsongrass in their search for more "profitable" grasses. They didn't like the fact that it required careful management and keeping livestock off it during periods immediately after drought or frost when there was a risk of Prussic acid poisoning, and the risks from nitrate poisoning in high fertility environments coupled with drought stress... Johnsongrass also grows fast and spreads from rhizomes, and is a perennial, so it can quickly spread to adjoining crop lands where it is not wanted, a fact discovered too late and it became a bane to many row-crop farmers, to the point of being declared a "noxious weed". I know how long and hard we fought johnsongrass in our cotton and sorghum fields for DECADES... the stuff is HIGHLY prolific and hard to kill... The fact that animals would "eat it into the ground" in open-grazing situations meant it was of little value to graziers, and its rapid rate of growth meant that it quickly went from "just right" for hay to "too stemmy" in a short period of time, so hay producers preferred other crops as well, and so Johnsongrass developed the "total junk" reputation it has today, which is mostly due to ignorance and improper management, or it becoming a "weed" in areas where it is not wanted.

There's the "rest of the story"...

Later! OL JR


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Vol said:


> My exact thoughts Colby. HERE, the only people that feed JG are those that are too lazy or cheap to fight it. Crabgrass is high in protein but I am not going to intentionally grow it.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Shame... many people do...

Heck there's improved cultivars of crabgrass being sold by seed houses now... look up "Red River Crabgrass" on google...

Later! OL JR


----------



## ANewman (Sep 20, 2012)

Vol said:


> My exact thoughts Colby. HERE, the only people that feed JG are those that are too lazy or cheap to fight it. Crabgrass is high in protein but I am not going to intentionally grow it.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Funny you should say that. A guy I do some custom haying for planted about 20 ac of Red River Crabgrass a few years ago. It actually made good looking and smelling hay. It was a little difficult to get dried down since I used a disc mower. Probably would have done better with a moco


----------



## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

Crabgrass won't kill an animal dead neither when someone doesn't know how to put it up right. I don't care how good yall think Johnson grass is. I'd be damned if I'd feed something to a 3000 dollar cow yet alone a 10,000 dollar rope horse that will kill them. 
Kinda like you eating something that someone cooked dor you and if they cooked it wrong, your dead


----------



## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Johnson grass is only a worry when drought strickened. I can feed Johnson to the cows and they will do better on it and choose it over Bermuda, that's here and our experience. I bale about 500 rolls of real nice JG hay every year for feed.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

ANewman said:


> Funny you should say that. A guy I do some custom haying for planted about 20 ac of Red River Crabgrass a few years ago. It actually made good looking and smelling hay. It was a little difficult to get dried down since I used a disc mower. Probably would have done better with a moco


Crabgrass is more difficult to dry down....takes a extra day here. And it can lodge badly in thunderstorms and not stand back up. It will dull your blades quickly also.

Regards, Mike


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I always identified johnsons grass by the distinctive white vein that runs down the middle of the leaves.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Colby said:


> Crabgrass won't kill an animal dead neither when someone doesn't know how to put it up right. I don't care how good yall think Johnson grass is. I'd be damned if I'd feed something to a 3000 dollar cow yet alone a 10,000 dollar rope horse that will kill them.
> Kinda like you eating something that someone cooked dor you and if they cooked it wrong, your dead


So you don't eat cooked chicken because raw chicken might kill you?


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Like I said... it's not for everybody...

You have to have the brains to be able to manage it right...

Not everybody does. That's on them.

Long as nobody's "forcing" you to use it, what's the big deal??

Later! OL JR


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> Long as nobody's "forcing" you to use it, what's the big deal??
> 
> Later! OL JR


The "big deal" here usually involves your neighbors.....they don't care if JG takes over their place, but you do....so it is a real battle to keep out encroachment of a unwanted species.

Regards, Mike


----------



## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Vol said:


> The "big deal" here usually involves your neighbors.....they don't care if JG takes over their place, but you do....so it is a real battle to keep out encroachment of a unwanted species.
> 
> Regards, Mike


+1 Mike


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

yep, Mike, the neighbors and the highway department on roadsides-looks like they fertilize the dang stuff sometimes. My favorite thing is the small lot owners that manicure their lawn and save a great big clump of Johnson grass along the road and let it go to seed so the birds can bring it to my fields that I have spent countless hours and dollars maintaining a near weed free condition on. It is enough to make you pray for a roundup fairy or something...


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Weve got JG coming up all over around here. It was a rarity in years past.


----------



## CBarM (Mar 1, 2015)

On the note of Prussic acid poisoning as we've dealt with this a lot from experience. Yes it will go away and dissipate in 30-60 days. However if your baling tight dense bales the Prussic acid can remain in the hay for a very long time. They're not actually sure how long it can take to go away in a bale core. We lost some cows from it in 1 yr old hay. It's a fast killer the vets around me call it a natural form of cyanide. 
Sugar cane aphids got us bad last year on our Sudan and milo stalk hay as they deplete the protein out of the plant. Using it to kill Johnson grass would not be a good route to go through imo 
Just my .02$ worth


----------



## CBarM (Mar 1, 2015)

Something I forgot on JG and PA poisoning is if you got bad feral hogs it can cause the PA to come to the JG also. During the summer hogs will root for grubs in JG patches. This rooting can cause the JG to get stressed and develop PA. We've lost grazing cattle due to this. So keep an eye out for it if you bale it another reason hogs are useless. I wish the hogs would die from the PA lol


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

JD-we have more here this year than in the past as well. JG likes this rain we have been having but it also will grow when it is dry. However for seeing it in new places, at least in our area, there is nothing like lots of late June and early July rain.


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Vol said:


> The "big deal" here usually involves your neighbors.....they don't care if JG takes over their place, but you do....so it is a real battle to keep out encroachment of a unwanted species.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Okay, I can understand that... but how is that different than anything else??

It'd be the same deal if you were row cropping. If I was your neighbor and wanted to make JG hay and you didn't like it, I'd tell you "too bad"... what happens on your side of the fence is your problem (and your business).

If I was row cropping next to your hay meadows, I'd be PO'd about the bermuda sending runners through the fence and trying to spread into my row crop ground...

Just how it goes with farming...

Later! OL JR


----------



## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

JG was our worst nightmare as far as weed in S IN. It was originally brought here from Texas to stabilize river levees. Then it went to seed and ended up everywhere. Then, in 1996, RR soybeans came out and corn a few years later and JG in not even a concern. Now after almost 20 years of glyphosate dependency, we have some really neat resistant weeds like marestail, water hemp, and coming soon to a field near me, Palmer amaranth. Round up will not hardly kill any broad leaves anymore, just use it for grass control.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Funny thing about most of the weeds I get is after they're sprayed with Cimmaron, clarity, 24D, whatever and they are fried brown, they're still standing there and still end up in the bale.


----------

