# organical and high yeild varieties



## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, here in comes the cheapest person you might ever meet in your life, and he's got questions about hay varieties.
I have the notion to get a horse or two, been reading on it, and would really like to grow my own hay for them- plot twist- but there in lies the rub, what variety.
I know it would be best to have a grass rather than a legume, but my small amount of land is making things difficult.

In short- out of orchard, timothy, brome, bermuda, bahia, fescue, etc., what variety of easy going grass will get the fastest growth and highest yeilds possible with an organic (compost with no chemical fertilizers) field?

I hear Bermuda Tefton 85 can get an average of 4.5 tons to the acre, but if anything can do better I'd like to hear it. I live near Dallas if that's any help to choosing.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

You will be better to manage for grazing, not hay. T-85 will do well as stockpiled grazing.

If you do not have the land to put in managed grazing you will not have enough for hay.

You for sure do not want round bales. Square bales will test 2% higher in feed value than round bales. ..

Get you forage established before getting any kind of livestock.

The drier the season the more good you get from fertilizer.

T-85 should be able to yield 8 tons or more of dry forage. With Blackland soil and fertility you should realize a ton of Dry Forage for each 4-6" of useful rain. 
Useful rain is rain that stays on your property. Rain that goes down the rivers to the Gulf is not useful. Fact is rain that drifts of to your or your neighbors stock tank is lost to the grass also.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I agree with Mr. Wilson as I do Tifton 85 for horses (currently I've got 31 out there). However, you didn't say how many acres you plan to put in. Horses are only happy when they are eating. Keep in mind that you will drop considerable $$ on equipment and hay storage. PM member RCF on this forum. He's in Sulpher Springs and he spriggs bermuda.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

Wilson, maybe dumb question but why do square bales test higher??


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well my first guess would be some folks let the hay get too dry before round baling. Personally I start baling at 19% and treat em. Last year was propionic and this year Hayguard.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

yeah i was thinkin maybe leaf shatter.

mlappin, how do u like that hayguard?? I've never used anything like that before. It seems like round bales would fine but in a square bale wouldn't the bale be heavy and end up being lose stringed after it cures? Or do even the round bales get squatty?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Stack all my rounds on their edges. Don't squat if their stacked flat. Haven't used it enough yet to form a real opinion, I do like the fact it won't take your breath away like propionic.


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## scrapiron (Mar 10, 2010)

Matty said:


> Well, here in comes the cheapest person you might ever meet in your life, and he's got questions about hay varieties.
> I have the notion to get a horse or two, been reading on it, and would really like to grow my own hay for them- plot twist- but there in lies the rub, what variety.
> I know it would be best to have a grass rather than a legume, but my small amount of land is making things difficult.
> 
> ...


I have horses & cows around here. Grow tifton-85,russell bermuda, tifton-9 bahia and pensacola bahia. The bahia is a lot easier to establish,not as productive and I use them for grazing. It might be better suited for you using compost for fertilizer. The bermuda grass is a lot harder to establish, will produce >14,000lb of dry hay per acre at about double the nutritional value of bahia.

The problem I see for you in growing bermuda grass for hay is, your inability to supply adequate nutrients { N-P-K } with your compost to get anything but poor production from hyb bermuda. My tift-85 & russell will use almost 2lb of actual Nitrogen and around 1.25lb of actual potash per acre per day with good growing conditions, under ideal conditions established hyb bermuda has an almost unlimited ability to take up and use fertlizer. Here under good conditions we can cut every 28 days and that takes a lot of fertilizer to get it to grow that fast.

scrapiron


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

If you are smart enough to ask then it is not dumb.

*Wilson, maybe dumb question but why do square bales test higher?? *

The hay is constantly spinning in the hay chamber, that is a major reason.

Done correctly small squares CAN be baled at 18% to 20% moisture with out mold. 
Done correctly large round bales CAN be baled at 16% to 18% moisture with out mold.

Small square bales can be baled at 70% RH .
Round bales can be baled at 65% RH. 
Both will have significant leaf shatter at 55% RH ( this is down at the windrow). 
A square baler will trap more loose leaves inside the bale than the round baler. 
An Inline baler will loose fewer leaves than our traditional square baler.

scrapiron baling hay on a 28 day interval will have 16% to 18% CP but with a corresponding smaller yield.

Here the market will not pay a quality premium on grass hay above 12% CP.

We have a reasonable probability of having 12% CP hay harvested on a 42 day interval. Higher yield with equal price, and less cost. With one fewer cuttings we will have fewer trips with the mower and fewer trips with the rake, but more total time spent actually baling hay. Higher gross with smaller cost = better net.

All the same *the cost to produce total digestible nutrients is less in a pasture setting*. 
It is in the grazing management that this advantage can be thrown away.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

yeah thats true... My grandfather always said there is no shame in not knowing... If you don't know, you don't know.

As far as baling hay on 28 day intervals... people always ask me that, I basically tell thats very hard to do, unless you live in the west and have irrigation. Most of our hay is closer to 5 weeks of growing for good quality horse hay. But if we got a good window of weather and I think it will at least make 50 squares an acre, I'm cutting it. Hay in the barn is better than hoping to get 10-20 extra squares in a week. We do get a good price for our hay though, so that helps in my decision.


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, I have 10 acres, all in the raw, never been plowed before to my knowledge. How many acre do you have? Believe it or not I was thinking about doing it the old fashioned way- with a twenty foot pole and a scythe.


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

If hybrid Bermuda might not give me the results I need, what other options do I have? 
What breed, strain or variety of grass , be it warm or cool season, will get me high yields with compost tea, composting during plowing or possible voodoo chicken sacrifice?
I am willing to sacrifice forage/nutritional value of the hay for more yield as a dietary supplement is no problem.
If you can give a suggestion, can you also give a tons pr. acre figure?


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

What about stacking hay? 
Are any nutrients lost in the old way of stacking hay around a pole?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Matty said:


> What about stacking hay?
> Are any nutrients lost in the old way of stacking hay around a pole?


Huh? New one on me


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Thinking they're talking about stacking loose hay? As it was in the old days using a hay devil. not sure about the 20 ft pole though if dad was here sure that he'd know why. keep it from blowing? LOL


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

On an aside if you are thinking of loose stacking there is a reason that this is not done anymore...Not sure about losing nutriants but you will lose a lot more hay on the bottom and top due to rot. that method was used for hay that wouldn't fit in the barn and was fed first...just sayin


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

How about if the hay was stacked on palates and covered with something, such as a tarp. In the way back, before bailing machines were common, a big 20 foot pole was stuck in the ground and a good sized layer of straw was lain around it. Hay was pitched with a pitchfork onto the pole, which itself had many short crossbars to it.
The hay would pile up around the pole and was then covered with a stitched blanket of straw or hay. A video of how this was done is available on youtube. Search for 'Edwardian Farm', not sure which episode, but it's there somewhere.

Second question for those reading- when it comes to hybrid bermuda, how does only plant a sprig? where does one get springs? When are they planted, and how many do I need for an acre?


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

With only 10 acres, you are probably better off seeding common Bermuda. Cutting with a scythe is not out of reason, but you'll probably have to do it about an acre at a time. You could build a buck rake to gather it after it dries and I would suggest you build a wooden baler like the one they use for pine straw. At least then you can get it out of the weather and preserve the nutrients. Just seems like a lot of work and effort to waste on a horse.....unless you are planning on eating it.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

The horse or the hay?


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

Mike120 said:


> With only 10 acres, you are probably better off seeding common Bermuda. Cutting with a scythe is not out of reason, but you'll probably have to do it about an acre at a time. You could build a buck rake to gather it after it dries and I would suggest you build a wooden baler like the one they use for pine straw. At least then you can get it out of the weather and preserve the nutrients. Just seems like a lot of work and effort to waste on a horse.....unless you are planning on eating it.


Well the horse I had my eat on is a Spanish Sulphur, which is rare enough that it is downright endangered. Seems like a lot of work but someone has to do it. The more horses I can get, the better off they will be. Many in Utah right now are being killed by mountain lions, which isn't helping the whole endangered thing any.

I figure that I can rotate paddocks (fenced in areas) that are stocked with a pure stand of warm season and a pure stand of cool season grass, harvesting the hay on a third unfenced stand to feed them in winter.

I need suggestions on the highest yielding grass varieties so that I can maximize the number of horses I can stock without any going without food. A horse eats about 3 tons of grass/hay per year. I would like 6 tons to the acre- if that's even know.

Any ideas?


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## NCSteveH (Jun 30, 2009)

1. Hay
2. Horses
3. Cheap

Number 3 does not play well with 1&2.

add in virgin land and I think your setting yourself up for disappointment, and there is nothing worse than having to do something you don't enjoy.

Don't want to sound like donnie downer, just make sure it's something you are prepared for.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Your best yielding grass will be Tifton 85 by an additional 15%. T-85 pound for pound will be your best performing grass by a about another 15%.
It is a whole lot better than your common every day bermudagrass. You will find that any bermudagrass is far mor forgiving of mistreatment than most of the native grasses. Very few of the Ideal grasses north of Oklahoma will survive our summers. That is only fair seeing how T-85 probably will not survive the winters north of Oklahoma City.

Regardless have your grass established before putting animals on it. 
10 acres will support one horse comfortably with grazing alone. 
That 10 acres will support 2 horses with some intelligent fertility management and reasonable management. 
That 10 acres will support 3 horses with some intensive fertility management as well as some intesssive grazing management, and some supplementation.
That 10 acres will not support 4 horses with out full feeding hay and you will need a corral to confine the animals in their stomp lot. You can still have some grass but it will be for exercise more than nutrition.

*That 10 acres will do better with one horse and one sheep for company. **Irregardlessly* get your forage management established *BEFORE* you buy the first animal.

I hope you realize I make a good living selling hay to people who do it just the opposite.


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## sedurbin (May 30, 2009)

> Believe it or not I was thinking about doing it the old fashioned way- with a twenty foot pole and a scythe.


You wouldn't by any chance be related to the Mattie in True Grit? If you are, you might just get this done. Good Luck.


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

I plan to get livestock in the third year of living there. The land will be plowed and conditioned with compost before any livestock, save for chickens and other poultry, is purchased.


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## Matty (Jul 20, 2011)

Will one acre of a blend of cool season (such as big bluestem) and warm season (such as giant bermuda) produce more tons per acre than a one acre of pure stand of giant Bermuda? Would the grasses kill each other or would they not produce as much as a pure stand for some other reason?


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Some reading for you. Granted there are a number of special names for sub soil types for the TX Blacklands. You can go to your local NRCS (Natural Resources Conservation Service) and they can determine your soil type. Possibly several soil types on your plot of ground. That will give more meaning to some of the information in these references.

Texas blackland prairies

Terrestrial Ecoregions -- Texas blackland prairies (NA0814)

Texas Blackland Prairie

Turner Seed Company Turner Seed - Grass Seed

There is or at least was a research station on the NW side of Dallas. If memory serves they specialized in grasses. They also have native clovers and forbs.

That is one way of supplying forages that are of use to livestock.

Then there are the "Improved Forages" route that is for you the long list of bermudagrass types. You can go the monoculture route or include a long string of clovers that supposedly are adapted to YOUR climate and soil. Then there is a string winter annuals as well as a very few Cool Season Perennials.

On and on, each requiring their own management efforts. Key word is Management or the lack there of. Neglect is in of it's self a management decision.

Seeded varieties of bermudagrass are managed differently than the sprigged or using spreading tops. 
The sprigged bermudagrasses are hybrids between bermudagrass types, that do not produce viable seed. 
Then there is the Tifton 85 that is the crowning glory of the premier bermudagrass breeder. It is a hybrid cross between a bermudagrass species and a grass of a slightly different species. 
In theory T 85 will yield 15% more total dry matter than any other bermudagrass, on a side by side comparison. Then the forage that is produced will yield 15% more meat, milk, hide, hair, or what ever than the same amount of dry matter from any other bermudagrass. Do the math and in theory T-85 is 1.3225 times the value of any other bermudagrass, on a side by side growing and grazing trial. In some trial T-85 has produced 150% of the what ever, compared to the other bermudagrasses in the trial. T-85 is not with out it's warts!

Thirty years ago a forage specialist at the Dallas Research Center kept a horse on a couple of contiguous town lots. Possibly he had a total of one maybe two acres. He did this with management and a good knowledge. Forages was his profession, the horse (or horses) were used to harvest the forage. When DR Lovelace retired he moved to Colorado.

You are also in the area that the Nobel Foundation of Oklahoma covers. The Samuel Roberts Noble Foundation

Check out their offerings


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