# How much luck have you had no tilling orchard grass?



## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

How much luck have you had no till drilling orchard grass in red clay/silty loam mix?

The ground is currently in weedy played out alfalfa that I'm gonna burn down next spring and summer with glysophsate, then plant next fall.

If I no till it I would rent a haybuster from my local co-op.

I really like the thought of no till drilling, but I don't want my new stand to suffer.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

In early April of 2012, I rented a Haybuster from the county conservation office and drilled in orchard grass at 10 lbs / acre. The land sits atop a shale ridge with a thin layer of poor topsoil. The orchard grass came in strong.

Gary


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks for the info NewBerlinBaler, did you inter seed into existing live sod, or did you do a burn down before planting?


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Nate926 - Yes, I inter seeded as I already had a stand of OG that was fairly well established. Also, I'm trying to stay organic and not use chemical herbicides. However, that may have been a mistake as my entire hay crop is now infested with weeds.

This year we're at a crossroads, trying to determine the best way forward. Would really like to avoid using weed killers as the land has been chemical-free for 18 years and could be certified. There is an organic herbicide available (doesn't discriminate - kills everything) but it's prohibitively expensive. Only option I've come up with so far is to spend a season (or two) just mowing it every two weeks or so to kill off everything but the grasses. It's under 20 acres so the mowing isn't as bad as it sounds - but still not a great option.

Gary


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

I have never dealt with organic and don't plan to anytime soon. I do know if you have dandy lions like we do mowering over and over will most likely make it worse. What is the cost per acre on the organic herbicide? I would make another post about your problem and see what others say on here. I thought to be organic it just had to be 3 years with no chemical herbs?


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## eastsidehayguy (Aug 12, 2013)

No tilled in to both corn and soybean ground last year stand was as good as the grond I worked and planted. Then only thing I dont really like is its a little rough at the head land. Would I do it again, if i had to bu would prefer to work it plant it and roll it..


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Thanks eastsidehayguy. I've got plenty of time to think it over lol. I'm gonna see what kinda residue and moisture I have when it comes time.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Nate926 - Answering your question about cost per acre for organic herbicide. Last time we did this was in 2013 so things may have changed. Most likely, the cost has increased.

Only herbicide approved by PCO (Pennsylvania Certified Organic) is a product called "Burn Out II" made by St. Gabriel Organics. We bought in concentrate form in 2½ gallon jugs - the largest container size available - for $79.95 (plus shipping) per jug. To try it out, we bought two jugs for a total cost of $176.90.

Instructions say to mix with water at 3:1 ratio but may have to be mixed at 2:1 for tough weeds. So depending on desired concentration, one jug will yield 5 to 7½ gallons of spray solution. Crunching the numbers, the cost (including shipping) of spray solution ranges from $11.80 to $17.70 per gallon.

Instructions say to apply solution at 35 to 75 gallons per acre. Yes, it's a large application range. Cost to apply 35 gal/acre at 3:1 concentration is $413/acre. Cost to apply 75 gal/acre at 2:1 concentration is $1,335/acre. So there's the price range per acre.

This product is really intended for a backyard organic gardener. We used it in a backpack sprayer to spot-treat patches of poison ivy. It does work but

obviously, no sane person would use this in a field sprayer.

Gary


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

My goodness that is unreal!!! I don't blame you for not spraying that stuff!


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Just realized the calculations in my earlier reply are incorrect. Crunching the numbers again:

A 3:1 mixture would yield 10 gallons of spray solution; one part concentrate (2½ gallons) plus 3 parts water (7½ gallons). A 2:1 mixture would yield 7½ gallons of spray solution; one part concentrate (2½ gallons) plus 2 parts water (5 gallons).

Cost of spray solution at 3:1 ratio is $8.85 /gal. Cost of spray solution at 2:1 ratio is 11.80/gal.

Cost to apply 35 gal/acre at 3:1 ratio is $309.75/acre. Cost to apply 75 gal/acre at 2:1 ratio is $885/acre. Still ridiculous.

Gary


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Yeah anything I have seen associated with organic is ridiculous! Only way I would pay that is if they guaranteed I would never have a weed in my field the rest of my life lol. I would still have to think it over!!


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> In early April of 2012, I rented a Haybuster from the county conservation office and drilled in orchard grass at 10 lbs / acre. The land sits atop a shale ridge with a thin layer of poor topsoil. The orchard grass came in strong.
> 
> Gary


That not always the case sometimes you will need a burndown herbicide . you may need a herbicide later for weed control as well the first year. . Some would say running at discl over it would help but I think that will just make things worse.We think Notill is the best option you will have to contend with the weeds and the previous crop whether you Disc or no till.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, how much per acre does it cost to burn the field down using Round Up or some other conventional (non-organic) method?

Gary


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Just out of curiosity, how much per acre does it cost to burn the field down using Round Up or some other conventional (non-organic) method?
> 
> Gary


The Roundup would run you about 9 dollars per acre


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I have a grt plains 10 footer and got a great stand last year seeding. However, I am running a lot higher seeding rate. I tend to use 12-15# and go up, turn around and go back in the same tracks. I would go cross ways on trip # 2 but it is a pain in my fields. Success is a partly a function of variety. I have never gotten haymaster orchardgrass (late leafy) to inter seed for beans. Does fine on initial seeding, just does not seem to want to interfill gaps. I have also used the haybuster drills with excellent results. I would think your biggest issue is pH. if you have already tested and adjusted, it should do fine.

Sounds to me like you are basically re-establishing a field and as such, I would not consider not burning it down and knowing it was a good kill when I seeded, in fact, I might burn it and then right at plant spray it again. I would figure on using a good winter annual herbicide (forefront or Cimarron) about mid sept-early oct the fall following plant (1 year later), then overseeding in the early spring to fill in any gaps from winter annual kill.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

We have been no tilling for the past few years into existing stands, some of them have been fields that were full of weeds, some just thin. We have been working on getting the ph right. Most of these fields are leased with the owners not wanting any chemicals used. We have seen good results, however it takes a good year for those results to show. The no till drill is coming from the local extension and talking with them, they have been seeing the same results. It takes a good year to start to see the OG take hold and crowd out the weeds. We also strive for 3 cuts a year. 
Like Hayman 1 we have been averaging 15lbs OG an acre.


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