# Chinese are coming the Chines are coming



## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

I just discovered to my surprise & dismay that the chinese company Tianjin-Lovol has resurrected the Arbos brand of tractors from Italy. (Previously owned by White) and that under the name Lovol-Arbos they have also purchased the Goldoni Tractor factory and the MaterMacc implements factory. The products are VERY good looking and are beginning to make inroads in Europe. We are safe, but for how long? Whenever I see anything associated with China, cheapness comes to mind, I know it's not fair, but it's of their own doing as they seem to specialise in cheap, not long lasting equipment.

I'm putting it out here as a FYI


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Trillium Farm said:


> I just discovered to my surprise & dismay that the chinese company Tianjin-Lovol has resurrected the Arbos brand of tractors from Italy. (Previously owned by White) and that under the name Lovol-Arbos they have also purchased the Goldoni Tractor factory and the MaterMacc implements factory. The products are VERY good looking and are beginning to make inroads in Europe. We are safe, but for how long? Whenever I see anything associated with China, cheapness comes to mind, I know it's not fair, but it's of their own doing as they seem to specialise in cheap, not long lasting equipment.
> 
> I'm putting it out here as a FYI


They're already here with some Agco/MF tractors. Chinese parts and bearings in equipment. Can cars and trucks be that far away? I thing is that economically the farmer has little choice but to consider and purchase. IMHO - Agco has opened the flood gate and to be price competitive, all makes will have Chinese tractors.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Unfortunately we are funding our strategic enemy and possibly our own demise. Our money is being used to build the Chinese into a powerhouse. When they finally get a large and competent blue water Navy the world is going to change. Right now they cannot project power around the world like we can; our Navy makes that possible through their own shipping capability and the ability to protect commericial shipping. Thats how we can support our infantry and air force anywhere in the world, and THAT is what supports the US Dollar. I was a US Air Force fighter pilot that flew a lot of close air support in the middle east but I am well aware of how the bombs I was dropping, critical infrastructure and even the food I ate was getting to the theater. The world is mostly water, and if you arent controlling that you are not a superpower regardless of the size of your economy or your army.

Chinese are well on their way to being able to do the same thing. What will happen then is anyone's guess but it wont be good for our economy, security, or influence. It will be difficult to counter/contain them like the Soviets...they learned from how we defeated the Soviets economically in the cold war, and Chinese economic strategy and our acceptance of their products has made that impossible. Once they can land and support hundreds of thousands of troops anywhere in the world the way we can they will use that to spread their form of communism around the globe. You will see Chinese bases in Africa, the middle east, maybe even south america. Its coming.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Aww Hell, I'm pulling a 2015 Chinese made John Deere CX-15 batwing mower behind me as I type.
Thought making all this equipment would at least make the purchase price lower, but it actually cost me $5,000 more than the Woods 15' batwing it replaced, which at least had some USA content.
So I guess these companies move production to China, lower factory wages from $20 to $2 per hour and keep all the money for corporate profits?? I'm sure these companies also enjoy the windfall profits that they can pollute the crap out of the Chinese water, air and ground-saving them more money than abiding by strict EPA regs here in the USA.

I only blame myself for buying it. After all, when anyone calls out Deere or CAT for making their stuff overseas the reaction is always "well....after all....Deere is a WORLD company..." therefore I guess they are easily excused for moving production to the cheapest, most easy to pollute places they can find.
For the most part, been a damn good mower, but if you're going to close a factory here in the name of lowering labor and production cost, how about treating the customer to a percentage of the savings?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> I'm sure these companies also enjoy the windfall profits that they can pollute the crap out of the Chinese water, air and ground-saving them more money than abiding by strict EPA regs here in the USA.


I wonder if they are really polluting their water/air/land, or do they put a bunch of that crap inside all the fireworks we buy and let us spread the crap around the US anyhow?

Larry


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Been saying for years... if you have any young kids, have them learn to speak Chinese. They'll need this skill when they're older.

The middle class in the United States is shrinking but the middle class in China is growing.

No country can be a military superpower unless it is first an economic superpower (ask the former Soviet Union how that worked out). And no country can be an economic superpower unless it has a large middle class. Third-world countries don't have a middle class.

The middle class doesn't have the political might to opt out of paying their fair share of taxes like the wealthy are able to do. Therefore, a large middle class is necessary to keep government programs (like the military) properly funded. As the U.S. spirals towards bankruptcy, we will reach a point where we simply can no longer keep the military going. That's when China will invade.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Been saying for years... if you have any young kids, have them learn to speak Chinese. They'll need this skill when they're older.
> 
> The middle class in the United States is shrinking but the middle class in China is growing.
> 
> ...


Invade?

I think that's a bit extreme. You also have to keep in mind, they have a BILLION more mouths to feed than we do. They could not start a world war without their already starving 100's of millions literally dying and overwhelming themselves with starvation and disease. They are nowhere near as self sufficient as we are. They cannot possibly feed themselves.

I think if we can roll back the damage done by Obama, we can become significantly more financially stable and powerful than we are now.

We are on the right track, and God willing, our leadership started by President Trump, will continue.

I get what you're saying, and China has become much more powerful, but has many, many problems to fix before they invade the US.

Im a lot more worried about the current Mexican invasion.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

In the business world, mfgrs. produce to a customer specification. If you don't like the quality blame the purchaser.

I think of China as I did Japan after WWII. The first products out the door were of poor quality. Made in Japan meant junk in the late 40's and early 50's. Not so today.

I remember the first China products (textiles and head coverings) I saw here in a Kmart store in Garland, Tx. That was back in the late '60's. That said, they have been here awhile.

I burned out some roller bearings on my JD baler over the last couple of years and I bought Seiko (the Japanese watch co.) brand bearings made in China........I guarantee you they are the finest product you ever had in your hand for half the price of US made.

So, on the current trade wars, to keep the consumer from having to pay for lack of innovation on the part of US suppliers, with the current tariff thing going on, to be competitive, you Mr. Mfgr. need to be competitive or find something else to do with your time. The consumer deserves better.

Not taking sides, just setting rumors straight!!!!!


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Texasmark said:


> Made in Japan meant junk in the late 40's and early 50's. Not so today.


Don 't know about that early, but in the 60's there was still some junk coming out of Japan, that I remember. In particular, Globe Master tools, the hammer would break (if not shatter) if you were driving anything bigger than a thumb tack, 11 gauge fencing wire was stiffer than the screw drivers and the pliers weren't strong enough to squeeze a pimple off the rear-end of a frog.

Larry


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

You can have whatever quality product you want from China, they will make it to your specs. From cheap tin Christmas tree ornaments to the best aerospace components.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

leeave96 said:


> They're already here with some Agco/MF tractors. Chinese parts and bearings in equipment. Can cars and trucks be that far away? I thing is that economically the farmer has little choice but to consider and purchase. IMHO - Agco has opened the flood gate and to be price competitive, all makes will have Chinese tractors.


What AGCO tractors are Chinese? I honestly don't know anymore, I know they used to use Iseki from Japan, and they were pretty bulletproof actually.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

carcajou said:


> You can have whatever quality product you want from China, they will make it to your specs. From cheap tin Christmas tree ornaments to the best aerospace components.


True, but then the price advantage disappears, that's why most chinese made stuff is of poor quality. There are some manufacturers that have factories in China and use chinese made parts of good quality, for them it makes sense. Who'd pay the same price for chinese made parts as for north american made ones?


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Trillium Farm said:


> True, but then the price advantage disappears, that's why most chinese made stuff is of poor quality. There are some manufacturers that have factories in China and use chinese made parts of good quality, for them it makes sense. Who'd pay the same price for chinese made parts as for north american made ones?


i highly doubt the price advantage will disappear when comparing quality apples to apples so to speak. lower labor, materials, real estate, and environmental/ health and welfare costs will continue for sometime, maybe forever.

As far as quality, the white goods like washers and dryers, etc from North America made in the last few years suck too. Years ago a washer and dryer might cost couple months wages but last 30 years. Nowdays this crap dies 3 months after the warranty expires and just try to find parts.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

I was shocked the other day when news was showing the products the traffic with China would be affecting people the most....dog food? Really? Do a google search on pet food made in China.

Think now know why cancer has gotten so common in dogs.

I have wondered on the cost advantage that has been argued for years due to lower labor and I do not buy all the price difference being labor cost. I will use lumber here. We grow the trees, we cut the trees, we log the trees, we haul them to be washed, loaded onto ships and travel half way around the world. They unload the logs, they cut the logs into boards or plywood or what ever product and then they must reload it on ships and ship it back, half way around the world.

To me there is no way there is that labor in the making of lumber with the modern mills. No way the shipping cost is not higher than the labor cost is in the making of the lumber product is my belief.

The only thing that makes sense to me is what has been said in some degree already: the difference in laws. They have little if any pollution laws or other regulations they must meet. Lower wages in only a tiny bit of it I believe. No way do I think we ought not have safety standards and pollution standards but does to me prove our government it out of bounds as to how huge it has grown in regulations.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

stack em up said:


> What AGCO tractors are Chinese? I honestly don't know anymore, I know they used to use Iseki from Japan, and they were pretty bulletproof actually.


The 4700, 5700 and 6700 series tractors.

http://www.masseyferguson.us/about-us/news-releases/Massey-Ferguson-5700-6700-Series-Offer-Big-Tractor-Grit-at-a-Great-Value.html

From that press release, "For the North American market, the Global Series tractors are manufactured in Changzhou in China, AGCO's newest manufacturing facility."


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

The bottom line is the US made a huge mistake when they allowed manufacturing to go to china. This very one thing has changed the whole dynamics of the world. We need to bring back manufacturing to the US. But this will take decades to get done.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

TORCH said:


> The bottom line is the US made a huge mistake when they allowed manufacturing to go to china. This very one thing has changed the whole dynamics of the world. We need to bring back manufacturing to the US. But this will take decades to get done.


Beginning to wonder if it'll ever happen.
I think it's becoming an issue of national security


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

TORCH said:


> The bottom line is the US made a huge mistake when they allowed manufacturing to go to china. This very one thing has changed the whole dynamics of the world. We need to bring back manufacturing to the US. But this will take decades to get done.


Sam Walton is responsible for this, that's why I don't ever go to walmart!


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Beginning to wonder if it'll ever happen.
> I think it's becoming an issue of national security


It better happen, because the middle class, which was made up of mainly manufacturing jobs, has almost disappeared and it is the middle class that contributes the lion's share of tax revenue to the IRS. The lower income class is a net receiver of subsidies and the upper income gets tax benefits that the others don't. Some say that the upper income don't pay their fair share, but all governments turn a blind eye to this as this is the class that employs the others and if overburdened they'll leave and take their talent, money and jobs elsewhere. Britain found that out the their dismay and it took Thatcher to finally make the necessary changes for the recovery.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Trillium Farm said:


> It better happen, because the middle class, which was made up of mainly manufacturing jobs, has almost disappeared and it is the middle class that contributes the lion's share of tax revenue to the IRS. The lower income class is a net receiver of subsidies and the upper income gets tax benefits that the others don't. Some say that the upper income don't pay their fair share, but all governments turn a blind eye to this as this is the class that employs the others and if overburdened they'll leave and take their talent, money and jobs elsewhere. Britain found that out the their dismay and it took Thatcher to finally make the necessary changes for the recovery.


I believe the top 3% income earners pay about 40% of all the income taxes. The bottom 50% pay like 3%.

We have to get this country turned around in a hurry. There is no security without economic security. Economic security gives revenues to the gov to keep the war machine in top shape.

Off-topic, but I'm a bit worried about how few are signing up for the military. I hear enlistment is down.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

There is a huge gap in the age of skilled trade in manufacuring. The schools were closed for many years. They are open again but the new comers dont have the same work ethecks of us older folks. I think they can bring back manufacturing faster than. They can train as many as would be needed. Pluss so many shops have closed. This is a huge problem with not that easy of a solution.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

r82230 said:


> Don 't know about that early, but in the 60's there was still some junk coming out of Japan, that I remember. In particular, Globe Master tools, the hammer would break (if not shatter) if you were driving anything bigger than a thumb tack, 11 gauge fencing wire was stiffer than the screw drivers and the pliers weren't strong enough to squeeze a pimple off the rear-end of a frog.
> 
> Larry


I remember those displays, out in the isle, 20 different types of items with a single, low-ball price. I wouldn't consider those to be representative of anything and any I bought, which I did, to work about as good as the price I paid for them. But.....the ones I bought were for very occasional use and usually did the job better than I could have done with out them.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

carcajou said:


> i highly doubt the price advantage will disappear when comparing quality apples to apples so to speak. lower labor, materials, real estate, and environmental/ health and welfare costs will continue for sometime, maybe forever.
> 
> As far as quality, the white goods like washers and dryers, etc from North America made in the last few years suck too. Years ago a washer and dryer might cost couple months wages but last 30 years. Nowdays this crap dies 3 months after the warranty expires and just try to find parts.


"As far as quality, the white goods like washers and dryers, etc from North America made in the last few years suck too."

I don't know what's in your wash room but last year I bought new Whirlpool washer and dryer. I guarantee you, they are very well designed and do an exceptional, quiet.....very quiet, and efficient job on Dollar General soap and cold water.....a squirt of Shout on the oily spots. The dryer is what it used to be but the washer is a totally new design using high frequency vibrations to remove the soil rather than mechanical agitation.

Result is clean clothes, low water and power consumption with little noise. The porcelain requirements still exist and the steel on the box is thinner but dimpled properly (like new cars and trucks) to keep the cost down. Got mine at Lowes for a great price.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Appliances are a funny lot, some companies make good this but poor that.....without a doubt, Whirlpool makes the finest washers and dryers out there.....Bosch makes a great dishwasher.....sadly, I haven't found a good fridgedair  I've had an Electrolux, a Samsung, and a whirlpool Gallery......this is in the last ten years 
Never ever buy an appliance without an extended warranty nowadays......


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

We have one of those high efficiency washers, and I would gladly give it up for an older washer. That damn thing can't wash drywall mud out of my jeans. In order to get them clean I have to soak them in the sink, and get most of the mud out first.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> Appliances are a funny lot, some companies make good this but poor that.....without a doubt, Whirlpool makes the finest washers and dryers out there.....Bosch makes a great dishwasher.....sadly, I haven't found a good fridgedair  I've had an Electrolux, a Samsung, and a whirlpool Gallery......this is in the last ten years
> Never ever buy an appliance without an extended warranty nowadays......


I had a front loader washer by frigidair that lasted the whole of 3 yrs and we have no kids. Bought a Bosch it's been 10 yrs running and no problems.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I was working on our old front loader washer dryer set, can't remeber thr brand, and when i found the repair manual it said manufactured by electrolux and all major brands were listed as simular models. Meaning electrolux produced them all. I believe bosch was not part of that list.

After a few repairs i had enough. Went to lowes and bought the cheapest old style (topload non high efficiency) set i could find and have had them for 5 years now not one issue. Might be hotpoint? I would have to look. The front load HE set was not cheap.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

KYhaymaker said:


> Unfortunately we are funding our strategic enemy and possibly our own demise. Our money is being used to build the Chinese into a powerhouse. When they finally get a large and competent blue water Navy the world is going to change. Right now they cannot project power around the world like we can; our Navy makes that possible through their own shipping capability and the ability to protect commericial shipping. Thats how we can support our infantry and air force anywhere in the world, and THAT is what supports the US Dollar. I was a US Air Force fighter pilot that flew a lot of close air support in the middle east but I am well aware of how the bombs I was dropping, critical infrastructure and even the food I ate was getting to the theater. The world is mostly water, and if you arent controlling that you are not a superpower regardless of the size of your economy or your army.
> 
> Chinese are well on their way to being able to do the same thing. What will happen then is anyone's guess but it wont be good for our economy, security, or influence. It will be difficult to counter/contain them like the Soviets...they learned from how we defeated the Soviets economically in the cold war, and Chinese economic strategy and our acceptance of their products has made that impossible. Once they can land and support hundreds of thousands of troops anywhere in the world the way we can they will use that to spread their form of communism around the globe. You will see Chinese bases in Africa, the middle east, maybe even south america. Its coming.


Oh I don't know, my grandfather used to say the exact same thing about Japan.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

CowboyRam said:


> We have one of those high efficiency washers, and I would gladly give it up for an older washer. That damn thing can't wash drywall mud out of my jeans. In order to get them clean I have to soak them in the sink, and get most of the mud out first.


If its a front load and this might work on top loads as well, take the back off, find the 1/4" (or whatever size) line coming out of the bottom that goes to a sensor that shuts the water off when the right amount is in, replace that with a line many feet longer, water has to compress that much more air allowing it to fill more. Made a world of difference on the wife's new front load.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

mlappin said:


> Oh I don't know, my grandfather used to say the exact same thing about Japan.


With all due respect, China's economy is the second only to ours, and is larger than #s 3, 4,and 5 on the list combined. Their purchasing power is already greater than ours, and current projections show their Gdp will overtake ours in less than ten years. They easily have the largest army in the world, which right now is only hindered by their naval capacity which they are rapidly improving. Finally, they have had hydrogen nukes since the late 60s and enough ICBMs to hold every major US city at risk, as well as sea launched and land mobile nuclear missiles.

Except for the United States, the Chinese now are the most powerful state in existence and they really are just getting started. Wait and see what their energy and raw material demands will be when the average Chinese family wants two cars in the driveway like we have here.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I know we've had several run-in's with them in the China Sea, they seem to think they own it......shadowing our ships on exercise seems to be their gig. The world will have problems with the Chinese in the not so distant future, unless changes occur that redirect attitudes and abilities....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

We need to be more buttoned-up on our research and military advantages. We keep letting them get ahold of too much of our technology.

I say we develop the space technology that allows us to destroy their satelites and any incoming ICBMs up in space. Develop the technology that destroys their computer systems.

Not real worried about standing armies. They are sitting ducks. Put thousands on ships and watch the ships get sunk.

Own the skies and the oceans now and own space in the future.

That is the future of military dominance.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> I believe the top 3% income earners pay about 40% of all the income taxes. The bottom 50% pay like 3%.


According to the Tax Foundation (.org), 2015 numbers (the latest published). The bottom 50% are at 2.83%, the top 1% pay 39.04%, then the next 4% (those between 1-5%) pay 20.54%. Which means the top 5% paid 59.58% of the taxes collected.





  








2015 Taxes paid




__
r82230


__
Oct 1, 2018








From the National Tax Payers Union

Tax Year 2015

Percentages Ranked by AGI AGI Threshold on Percentiles AGI Share (%) % of Federal income tax paid

Top 1% $480,930 20.65 39.04
Top 5% $195,778 36.07 59.58
Top 10% $138,031 47.36 70.59
Top 25% $79,655 68.99 86.62
Top 50% $39,275 88.72 97.17
Bottom 50% <$39,275 11.28 2.83

What I find interesting is the two breaks, the top 25% is at just shy of $80K, which pay almost 87% of all taxes and the top 10% at $138K+, which pay over 70% of all taxes. A married couple that are both school teachers, would be hitting the top 10% here in Michigan (or one being a teacher, one being a RN ).

The other interesting note: is that the top 1% still paid over 39% of the Federal taxes collected, WITH all the deductions (loop holes) taken, that the politicians all talk about, closing. :huh:

Keep in mind, $20 an hour, is just over the 50th percentile ($41,600, at 40 hours a week, times 52 weeks.

Larry

PS the numbers will change some I'd guess with the new tax rates/brackets, but not a lot.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

They don't have to nuke us, they'll OWN us...

I talked with an oil man when they were working on leasing our place in Shiner... It's on the eastern edge of the Eagle Ford Shale, one of those new "miracle fields" that fracking has opened up, where gas was locked up in impermiable formations and was uneconomical to produce until modern fracking (and oil/gas prices). Much like the Bakken Shale up in the Dakotas...

He was telling me how the oil and gas drilling industry had practically died in the 90's and early 00's, because of environmental over-regulation making drilling uneconomical. When the tide turned and it was economical to drill again, and the massive finds in the Eagle Ford and Bakken Shales was discovered, they found that they couldn't get drilling rigs, tooling, and equipment fast enough... the industry to build that stuff had withered and practically died, and was totally incapable of keeping up with modern demand, so that they were looking at 2-3 year backlogs waiting on new drilling rigs and tooling and equipment to be delivered to drill wells. To add insult to injury, there simply wasn't enough available capital to ramp up and buy all this new drilling equipment necessary to actually drill the wells and pay the bills to get the work done. The Chinese came in and offered to buy the Eagle Ford Shale find outright... that would provide the badly needed capital to buy the rigs, tooling, and equipment necessary to actually drill it. The US gubmint said, "no" but allowed them to buy a 50% interest and also make heavy investments and buy up a lot of oil company subsidiaries, to provide the necessary working capital to actually drill for all that oil and gas.

The Bible says plainly, "the borrower is slave to the lender". This is true, even if the US and the rest of the world hasn't quite figured that out yet, because it hasn't blown up in their faces YET... And yes I said "YET" because it IS coming! The US is the biggest debtor nation in the world (in the history of the world now) and guess who owns HUGE amounts of that US debt?? China! They trade us tons of cheap crap in Walmart for our currency, then loan it back to us by buying US Treasury Bonds... all the while we export our manufacturing jobs and increasingly technological know-how to them for us to beat us at our own game.

The main thing propping the US up, and the main reason we aren't bankrupt already, is because the US is the world's reserve currency-- ie, the "petrodollar". Everybody has to buy oil to some extent or other, and the US craftily arranged for all international oil sales to be in dollars after World War I. That forces all countries to use or trade for US dollars to pay for their oil imports. ANYBODY who has threatened this arrangement (like Saddam Hussein) has been invaded and wiped out or economically destroyed. The problem is, the US was a huge industrial economic powerhouse back then, but this is no longer really true, and less so every passing year as we move to an "information economy"...

The Chinese have already started working slowly and steadily toward replacing the US dollar with their own currency as the world reserve currency. When that happens, the US will find itself bankrupt overnight. The Chinese will be the "world's bankers" and will hence have all the power virtually handed to them overnight.

For those that think, "oh well, the US will just declare bankruptcy, press the 'reset' button, and start over", who do you think holds all that US debt?? What about all those interests and investments in US companies (and oil/gas fields like the Eagle Ford Shale)?? China does! They're not going to nuke their own investment, but I WOULD expect them to take it over...

The US population is in for quite a shock when that happens... I can see the day when an emasculated and broke US gubmint will do ANYTHING to stay in power, including allowing the Chinese to take over their "investments" in the US in exchange for enough *real* currency (ie NOT worthless greenbacks nobody wants any more) to keep some sort of economy going and themselves in power... Americans finding themselves broke and on foot walking if they want to go anywhere will watch in shock and horror as our oil and gas from under our own soil is shipped via pipeline to sea ports and loaded into enormous tankers headed for China, while they go without heat because they can't afford fuel.

"Oh, but people won't stand for it... The US has more guns than anybody; people will rise up to stop it!" Not when the US gubmint is bankrupt and powerless, threatened with a nuclear-armed superpower abroad who will be the ones holding the keys to what's left of our faltering economy... They'll cave so fast to save their own power, prestige, and position it'll make your head spin. I wouldn't be surprised to see Chinese troops in UN helmets in the US mainland before it's over... And if by "some miracle" the US population DID rise up, they could nuke us in 30 minutes, avoiding their own "investments" and STILL come in and take what they wanted after the fallout settles...

It's a huge mess, and it's coming, but it's of our OWN DOING. Most people nowdays are SO distant from reality they don't even know where their food comes from-- so how are they gonna know how all this "debt-driven economy" stuff is eventually GOING to work out?? Reality cannot be fooled, no matter how much people like to think that they can just do whatever they want and the world will bend to their ideas... H3ll, Hitler was still issuing orders to imaginary armies that existed only in his own mind while Soviet troops were in the streets of Berlin right over his own head, and it didn't save him, or change the reality of how the world REALLY worked...

Later! OL J R


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Sad . The farm chemical and seed companies are just about all foreign-owned China owns syngenta.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

The U.S. "debt" is not debt in the sense we are used to. It is a statistic of money "saved" or rather that has been created by the federal government. The federal government can run a deficit forever (in a reasonable amount) because it is a sovereign currency issuer. The fed does not need to borrow money from anyone to pay its bills. We need an expanding money supply, federal deficit spending does just that. There is no one that we owe that money to. Think of is as being the same as if you were to account for all the hours you have worked in your life. Do you owe that amount to somebody, or to yourself?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

OL J R,

The only thing I would add to your post above is that China is also in financial, social and environmental trouble. They are extremely overpopulated and still enslave their population with communism. They will be facing social upheaval. 
Meanwhile we are becoming more energy independent. Robotics are replacing many of the labor intensive resources the Chinese have (cheap labor). America is opening back up to industry by lowering corporate taxes and regulations.
It will take decades to turn the ship around, but with the Obama types who want to manage the US into a state of decline gone, it helps start the process.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I don't follow you. Would you explain this a little more?

The U.S. "debt" is not debt in the sense we are used to. It is a statistic of money "saved" or rather that has been created by the federal government. The federal government can run a deficit forever (in a reasonable amount) because it is a sovereign currency issuer. The fed does not need to borrow money from anyone to pay its bills. We need an expanding money supply, federal deficit spending does just that. There is no one that we owe that money to. Think of is as being the same as if you were to account for all the hours you have worked in your life. Do you owe that amount to somebody, or to yourself?


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

r82230 said:


> According to the Tax Foundation (.org), 2015 numbers (the latest published). The bottom 50% are at 2.83%, the top 1% pay 39.04%, then the next 4% (those between 1-5%) pay 20.54%. Which means the top 5% paid 59.58% of the taxes collected.
> 
> From the National Tax Payers Union
> 
> ...


Be interesting to see how this pans out when you consider all the "hidden taxes". Sales tax, use tax, etc. I believe the lower percentile earners will come out on the losing end when you see the "other taxes" they pay as an aggregate.

Rich folks buy the same amount of diapers as poor folk, but there's a lot more poor folk  Lotta little dirty bottoms :lol: Besides, I heard on good authority, that rich folks don't crap :lol:


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Let's put it this way.............

I live in an area that has a 10% sales tax. (It pays for all the tax cuts to the wealthy).

Some rich dood goes to the grocery store. He eats about the same as I do. Buys about the same grocery cart full of stuff. But.......he's only one of a few rich doods.

The less than rich doods make up about 99% of the population. That's a lotta grocery carts. The rich dood is more than happy to pay a bit more income tax that isn't a burden on his income in reality, it's good press. Actually, he's receiving a ton of breaks on his taxes.

The average guy really can't afford the tax he's paying, because his grocery cart is a much higher percentage of his available income. It takes a bigger bite, percentage wise, out of his paycheck.

State coffers are going empty. So they increase sales tax, but seldom increase income taxes on the upper percentile of earners. The wealthy folks get tax breaks at the expense of the lower class. Simple math. You gotta million folks kicking another 1% sales tax to pay for the tax breaks. Great math if'n you're on the good end of it. And the wealthy guy doesn't mind another 1% sales tax on his watermelon, in return for that same 1% reduction on income tax on 1M in income.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Okie math


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Ok Gearclash I can see your point about the government does have a printing press and is not afraid to use it. But that runs into a lot of JR's thinking that China already owns a lot in this country. I don't see them taking worthless paper and not doing anything to get even.

We us to have technological advantages but Bummer did his best to give away as much of that advantages as he could. The Chinese have eyes everywhere and until Trump nobody seemed to care.

I have a nephew that is into competitive pistol shooting and works for Sure Fire company (flash lite for civilian market,noise suppressors for rifles for military,and lots of other stuff). Using there equipment he built his own siting device for a handgun in competitive shooting. Others saw them at matches, boss helped him patient it and get parts made. Never going to be a big seller because there just not that many people have a need. But the Chinese moved in on his business and have adds selling a replica of it from a internet site, cheaper than he can get parts made for. All business people tell him are government has had no interest in protesting patient infringement. So China has eyes everywhere cause this is not a real money deal, maybe the connection to a company that sell military hardware got there attention. But still just a 2 bit item why advertise and sell it here?


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

carcajou said:


> I don't follow you. Would you explain this a little more?


I shouldn't be trying to explain something of which I only understand the very basics--my suggestion would be to read up on Modern Monetary Theory on wikipedia. It is basically Keynesian Economics. When I was in college I was taught what was essentially Austrian Economics. I have come to realize that Austrian Economics explains exactly what happen with U.S. state finances, where there is no creation of money, only the use of existing money. Sovereign federal governments have the ability to create money, which they do not need to repay to anyone. They use this money to to pay federal obligations, in addition to taxes. Taxes are the balance to deficit spending--without taxes, money loses its value rapidly.

I don't agree with everything that MMT pushes for, but it does make sense, and it is the system we have.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Gearclash said:


> The U.S. "debt" is not debt in the sense we are used to. It is a statistic of money "saved" or rather that has been created by the federal government. The federal government can run a deficit forever (in a reasonable amount) because it is a sovereign currency issuer. The fed does not need to borrow money from anyone to pay its bills. We need an expanding money supply, federal deficit spending does just that. There is no one that we owe that money to. Think of is as being the same as if you were to account for all the hours you have worked in your life. Do you owe that amount to somebody, or to yourself?


 The federal government does not create new money, the federal reserve does...and the federal reserve is neither federal nor a reserve. It is a private central bank. It creates money out of thin air, and lends it to the federal government. Despite the name "federal reserve", which was a purposeful deception, it is not a department of the government, and the taxes we pay certainly do pay back the Central bank, with interest of course.

More importantly, the ever expanding money supply lowers purchasing power over time. This actually has had a greater impact on our lives than even taxes do. Look sometime at the loss in the purchasing power of the US dollar from 1913, the year central banking finally came to America (followed shortly by the income tax, which was collateral for the central bank since they werent sure the federal government could pay back these loans otherwise). The vast majority of the actual value of a dollar is gone, while the value of commodities relative to one another (for example the price of a gallon of milk in terms of loaves of bread) is fairly stable. That right there tells you everything you need to know.

My great-grandfather provided a decent standard of living for his family with the work of his hands and a team of horses. Were he alive today, to provide that same standard of living, he would need to produce far more than he did then. Thank central banking for that.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

One other thing, they might want you to believe that there is a relationship between taxes and monetary value but instinctively that ought to sound fishy...and it is. As human beings we place value on things we want...and the quantity or supply of those things determine the market price. Things that are rare, or things in high demand, have higher prices. Things that are both rare and in high demand have the highest prices of all. This is true of money as well...its always in demand, but the more of it there is the less value it will have. Zimbabwe proves this fact every five years or so.

The federal income tax was and is simply collateral. When the top bankers and elites conspired to bring european style central banking to America they convinced the congress that they needed a private banking cartel to run the money supply. They agreed to lend congress as much money as they wanted...no loan can be denied, but in exchange they wanted collateral since they knew these loans would be huge. So the federal income tax was born. Its "interesting" that we pay a significant portion of our lives to the central bank cartel in the form of taxes on interest for federal loans when the money for that loan didnt even exist before congress asked for it. Thats a nice gig if you can get it, a real life golden goose. All you need is a few idiotic or crooked politicians and a constitutional amendment and it can be yours as they found out.

The sad thing is that people dont even comprehend they are being scammed, or that this country still had roads and armies and a navy before the federal income tax existed.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gearclash said:


> I shouldn't be trying to explain something of which I only understand the very basics--my suggestion would be to read up on Modern Monetary Theory on wikipedia. It is basically Keynesian Economics. When I was in college I was taught what was essentially Austrian Economics. I have come to realize that Austrian Economics explains exactly what happen with U.S. state finances, where there is no creation of money, only the use of existing money. Sovereign federal governments have the ability to create money, which they do not need to repay to anyone. They use this money to to pay federal obligations, in addition to taxes. Taxes are the balance to deficit spending--without taxes, money loses its value rapidly.
> 
> I don't agree with everything that MMT pushes for, but it does make sense, and it is the system we have.


I'd be leery of anything I read on Wikipedia. They're about as bias as "the View" TV show.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

KYhaymaker said:


> One other thing, they might want you to believe that there is a relationship between taxes and monetary value but instinctively that ought to sound fishy...and it is. As human beings we place value on things we want...and the quantity or supply of those things determine the market price. Things that are rare, or things in high demand, have higher prices. Things that are both rare and in high demand have the highest prices of all. This is true of money as well...its always in demand, but the more of it there is the less value it will have. Zimbabwe proves this fact every five years or so.
> The federal income tax was and is simply collateral. When the top bankers and elites conspired to bring european style central banking to America they convinced the congress that they needed a private banking cartel to run the money supply. They agreed to lend congress as much money as they wanted...no loan can be denied, but in exchange they wanted collateral since they knew these loans would be huge. So the federal income tax was born. Its "interesting" that we pay a significant portion of our lives to the central bank cartel in the form of taxes on interest for federal loans when the money for that loan didnt even exist before congress asked for it. Thats a nice gig if you can get it, a real life golden goose. All you need is a few idiotic or crooked politicians and a constitutional amendment and it can be yours as they found out.
> The sad thing is that people dont even comprehend they are being scammed, or that this country still had roads and armies and a navy before the federal income tax existed.


And I fear the ever expanding army of high tax democrats and RINO republicans will only worsen the problem.
You see Trump trying to reduce spending by asking all govt departments by 5%. Largely symbolic, but I think this is the only way we can reduce our bizarrely out of control deficit spending. At least he's setting an example.
Our military was basically destroyed by Obama, and it's going to take 2 terms of Trump to rebuild, but I'm of the opinion we need to force our strategic partners to shoulder more of the load. Our NATO partners need to should more, much more, of the load. The Japanese & S. Koreans need to shoulder more of the load in the South Pacific and so on. Being the "worlds policeman" is too expensive for us. Look at the bad guys and the weaponry they have. It's not dreadnoughts versus wooden pirate ships anymore.
Lastly, military technology needs more emphasis. I think this is where we can win. With less and less patriotism and sacrifice coming from our youth, we need to figure out ways to control our interests from the skies, the seas and space. 
Once we get a true businessman running our country, and he stays true to everything being profitable and not running deficit spending, we will be on the right course.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

War.
USA vs China 50/50
USA vs Russia 50/50
USA vs China & Russia Not good

Anyone who says china does it all wrong and blah blah blah just remember that empire has been around the longest... Communism at that.

Also fall of the soviet union even then they had a massive arsenal of military power.
What do you think china and russia have now?
The Chinese pretty much build it all for the wholr globe, yet i hear of reports of people lined up outside foxconn's iphone factory wanting jobs. You think if there are people in china needing work the goverment wouldnt put them to work? Not sure what a cruise or tomahawk missle goes for but i bet they ciuld pump those bad boys out of a factory in china gor way cheaper than what we get then for.

And done be silly to think the US goverment even remotely knows what other crountries military powers are and arnt. last i checked russia and china both have a space program. Think they dont have the same electronic capabilites as us.. no probably way more seeing how they manufacture it all. So dont think oh the US military has satalites looking down i am sure everyone has taken that into account since the U2 was shot down.

I am sure behind closed doors the US military and goverment dont think they are so tough and overpower these other countries.

This is exactly what my grandfather warned of the Chinese taking over.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Why war? 
Russia's economy is smaller than California. War with China? Before that ever happens, we'd stop buying from them and start producing goods here. Sure it would cause us to spend more, but it beats a war with China. Then the Wal mart of the world (china) begins experiencing starvation revolts from its billion hungry people, now unemployed, overrunning the government. 
Thousands of years of existence China, yes. 
Communist? About 70 years. 
That's a short period of time to oppress your people. Communism, as demonstrated at tienamen square, or the Berlin Wall, East Germany can only keep people oppressed so long. Then comes the revolt. Look at the history of the Soviet Union, east Germany, Venezuela. China can only oppress so long. Do you know china imprisoned over a million people just for peacefully practicing Islam? How long you going to successfully lock people up for simply practicing a religion? It won't last. The next Tienamen Square revolt is coming. It'll be more publicized and much bigger next time. Soviet Union communist for what 50 years? Think the average Russian wants that garbage anymore?

As far as being a citizen of either Russia, China or the US, I think the US wins with its freedom over the communist country handouts. Afterall, nobody trying to get into China, or Russia just people trying to get out. Lol

"Live free or die" comes to mind here. I'd rather not exist than be a peasant in the communist Chinese population of 1.3 billion people compressed into a country about the same size as the continental US.
The problem is, those communist empires never last long term. We only need to outlast them. Their people will eventually topple the oppression, brutality and lack of freedom and eventual bankruptcy offered by communism. See examples above. We need not fire a shot.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Any country with strategic nuclear weapons has to be considered a potential threat to our way of life. However, the cenral bank has been and will continue to be a threat RIGHT NOW. Their actions confiscate American purchasing power, and encourage unfettered congressional spending which means there is no fiscal restraint. This encourages and enables massive federal programs and wars. How would your spending habits change if you had a guaranteed line of credit, by law, that your neighbor was forced to pay back?

Seriously, think through what the FED enables by using my analogy. If you had a private bank that was required to lend to you but others had to pay the interest, think about how that would corrupt all but a perfect mans decisions.

How do you think businesses would approach you if you unlimited access to capital? 
Think the guys that manufacture tanks and airplanes might want you to be triggerhappy? 
Think people that makes certain products might try to get you to buy them and force them on people? 
With a limitless supply of capital, would it be a temptation to use that money to buy votes so that you could stay in charge of this money train? 
When the debt gets so high that your grandchildren's children will be paying your bills (people not even born yet) do you really even care? They cant protest, they havent been born! Talk about taxation without representation.

This unholy alliance between a private banking cartel and your legislature, and the easy money they have access to that will be paid back by others, has far reaching consequences in every area of public policy. The personal financial cost to you, right now, through the erosion of purchasing power is even larger than your tax bill. It will worsen considerably for your children.

Andrew Jackson fought central banking and killed it for awhile. It is no accident then that he also paid off the entire US national debt, the only president to do so. Jackson's actions led to his attempted assassination by a bank supporter, who later changed his story and claimed it was insanity.

The people will not regain control of our government until the federal reserve ceases to exist. Voters simply cannot compete with the temptations that free access to money provide and the corrupting influence they have on our officials.

We naturally look outside our borders and consider the threats out there, and we should, but it is foolish to ignore the undermining of our way of life right here within our borders. Most people do, because they dont even know it is happening. Almost no one even knows what the FED is, nor its function, nor the effect they have, nor the fact that this collection of private banks control the money supply among other things. Our shadowy, murky view of them is all by design, beginning with the lie that is their very name: the federal reserve.


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