# Seeding failure,head scratcher



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Neighbor seeded 2 fields with Alfalfa and a grass mix.
One field was beans last yr and other corn.
Seed was mixed with fertilizer and spread with airflow and rolled in.
He got a good stand and it was 3-4" tall and nice and green then leaves turned tan/brown and dried up.
Wind storm came threw and blew all the leaves off.Stems left standing.
The grass that was seeded was a lot thinner then should of been.
They have gone over all chemical application records and shouldn't be issue with any carryover.Also the 2 fields had totally different chems last yr.
The dieing off of the plants was even across the entire field was no different in low ground or higher ground.So that pretty much rules out plant diseases.
I think it could be a screw up at fertilizer plant and to me the only thing that makes any sense.They said no way it could happen.
They looked into testing soil for chems but you have to test for specific chemical groups and no way of knowing what to test for.Testing for everything possible would cost over $1000.IIRC about $200 per test.
They want to reseed it.
They dug it up because waterhemp was coming in spots.
Sure seems risky to me to seed it again but that's what they want to do.
Sure is a head scratcher.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

That really is bizarre. I can’t think of anything that would have been sprayed on both fields that would have that kind of residue aside from Flexstar, even then I don’t think it would have let anything begin to grow. That still doesn’t explain the field seeded in the corn ground.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Yea flexstar was my first thought until I found out there was 2 separate fields.And he didn't use flexstar the yr before anyway because there wasn't any weeds.

So then I'm thinking Sonic but that don't explain what happened on corn ground.

So then I'm thinking accidentally got sprayed by plane because no sprayer tracks but the waterhemp looked good and healthy

Sooo...If I was to test for 1 thing I'd test for Surestart as it's commonly used here for corn and impregnated quite a bit.

I did plant some seed in flower pot in some soil I got from field.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Sure sounds like herbicide. Were they sprayed the same 2 years ago ? So Or how about a recent manure application and salts just released. Dairy manure from closed pit not to be applied 8 month before seeding alfalfa&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Or manure app 2 month or so ago that is unloading too much residual npk, I heard of that before. Or Grazon or Milestone manure spread . Within last 3 years


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

endrow said:


> Sure sounds like herbicide. Were they sprayed the same 2 years ago ? So Or how about a recent manure application and salts just released. Dairy manure from closed pit not to be applied 8 month before seeding alfalfa&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..Or manure app 2 month or so ago that is unloading too much residual npk, I heard of that before. Or Grazon or Milestone manure spread . Within last 3 years


We discussed the possibility of manure but there would be streaking more then likely were manure was spread heavier.The damage is across entire field evenly.Didn't have any manure on it the last 12 months and would be pen pac manure.They do bale ditch hay and feed but we dont think its the cause with the reasons I gave.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Did you keep a sample of the seed? Could it have had something spilled on it or coated in something? Were there germination tests done on the seed?
Just something else to consider.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

hog987 said:


> Did you keep a sample of the seed? Could it have had something spilled on it or coated in something? Were there germination tests done on the seed?
> Just something else to consider.


I planted seed off the same pallet and its fine.Here is mine seeded June 3.His was a few days later.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Another shot of mine


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

And his after leaves blew off,about a week after the storm.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

My SWAG would be first residual then insect.

Did they maybe use something like Plateau which can have residual effects up to 48 months depending on application rate?

They fact that one field was 3-4" tall, then died, indicates that something happened when the roots hit 2-3" deep. Add in that both the alfalfa and OG got nailed further leads to chemical. Plants draw primarily on the energy in the seed until they get 2-3" tall then they transition to relying on the root system.

Another thought is some chemicals get applied a very low rates (Plateau is 2-4 oz/ac typical) so the buggy or blender may have been contaminated -- possible but not likely in this case.

Everything you said leads me to the thought that it was residual effects. But a lot of that depends on soil type, application rate, etc.

A third possibility is someone sprayed the wrong field from the air. Very remote possibility, but it happened once here.

Where there any added to the fertilizer, such as Agrotain for urea, where the plant could have mixed in the wrong chemical?

I mentioned insects because my yard got infested with sod webworms and it took me a couple of years to get them under control. They loved the bluegrass, but another section which was a fine fescue didn't get touched.

In any case, I would not replant until I knew exactly what was going on. If it was an accident or residual, replanting would probably have the same results.

Let us know what you find out.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I think I have him talked into a soil sample.I suggested testing for Harnass/ surpass which is commonly used here and impregnated on fertilizer for corn.i don't think any bean herbicides are impregnated on fertilizer typically here.

I agree that as the plant got bigger it took in more chemical until it went backwards.

He wanted me to just seed it,I told him I'd even pay for the test as apprehensive as I was just to rule something out.

Thought about the plane also.Kinda ruled that out as the grasses didn't come up well at all,maybe 10% so I'm thinkin what ever it was killed the grass as it germed.Might even be that 1 of the grasses in the mix isn't effected by what ever did the damage.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

When I first looked at the picture, I said to myself them darn state 4 legged critters are really trimming that field. But didn't see enough hoof marks.

Really reaching here, but is it possible to have shallow hard pan (with this springs weather) and plants are also stressed for moisture with just a little chemical (herb) damage?

I'd be taking some soil samples and planting just plain oats to see if they survive, before planting anything else. That's worked for me, naturally YMMV.

Larry


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

r82230 said:


> When I first looked at the picture, I said to myself them darn state 4 legged critters are really trimming that field. But didn't see enough hoof marks.
> 
> Really reaching here, but is it possible to have shallow hard pan (with this springs weather) and plants are also stressed for moisture with just a little chemical (herb) damage?
> 
> ...


Got a soil sample in house now and alf sprouted and 1/2 tall already.Have some grass planted in it and dont see anything there yet.

I think its some sort of herbicide damage because its so even across field-and most grass was dead.

He says seed it again next week


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> He says seed it again next week


If you do, you might consider doing just a small plot, like 1/2 acre, and see what happens. That way, you wouldn't loose the entire field if there's a problem. It's early, so you have a little leeway in plant time.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

rjmoses said:


> If you do, you might consider doing just a small plot, like 1/2 acre, and see what happens. That way, you wouldn't loose the entire field if there's a problem. It's early, so you have a little leeway in plant time.
> 
> Ralph


Aug 15 is are final planting date here.So not really enough time for that.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Update.He said seed it so I did.Its up and turning green.Seeded one field to straight alfalfa and other one grass mix/ Alf.Well that's the good part of the story.I also grabbed some soil and sprouted some Alf and grass in a bowl.Grass is about 5" and the alfalfa got to 2.5" and is dieing off.

I still say the coop screwed up and impregnated the fertilizer some how.But they never make mistakes!

Before I reseeded they dug it quite deep 3 times.I was hopeing this would dilute any chemical.

The difference in co's

Seed co,We don't think it has anything to do with the seed but we will replace the seed at 50%

Fertilizer co,we didn't do anything wrong,your problem

No doubt in my mind it's a chemical issue but how it gone on the field is the big question


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## qcfarms (Dec 14, 2014)

I know that in our neck of the woods they mix grazon with urea sometimes when they spread fertilizer. When we rent a spreader buggy you have to ask for the right buggy or you may get some grazon residual which totally sucks if your fertilizing alfalfa.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

qcfarms said:


> I know that in our neck of the woods they mix grazon with urea sometimes when they spread fertilizer. When we rent a spreader buggy you have to ask for the right buggy or you may get some grazon residual which totally sucks if your fertilizing alfalfa.


Not a practice here but now that you say it and seeing what grazon,tordon,etc does to soybeans here it does look similar.The thing is its perfectly even across the field so IMO it came in fertilizer.

Flexstar is a commonly used herbicide here for post emergence on soybeans.It does have a 18 month alfalfa seeding restriction.Ive seen what it can do to corn if it carries over,corn gets 6-12" high and then gets deformed rolls up and buggy whips and dies once it gets bigger the corn must suck in more herbicide and then dies,before then it looks fine.Kinda like this alfalfa it looked fine until 3" and then died off.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm thinking maybe the soil could be tested for chemical(s) as mentioned, but then again a possible couple of hiccups come to mind:


the cost of the testing &
everyone would still say 'it wasn't me or wasn't my fault' if you found out the chemical the source couldn't be positively identified. 

How many acres are their in these field(s)? Seems that the 'cost' of that much chemical could add up. Because wouldn't it have to mixed in the complete load to get an uniform spread across the whole field or am I missing something? Then again, maybe I'm answering my own question, a big enough outfit, could bury the usage several gallons/pounds of chemical and who would know but them.

Tough loss in any case, at least it would be in MY area with the price of alfalfa seed (even worst if the alfalfa seed had any 'technology' costs associated with it). 50% of a large number can still be a large enough number, especially when you multiply across acres & acres.

Larry


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

r82230 said:


> I'm thinking maybe the soil could be tested for chemical(s) as mentioned, but then again a possible couple of hiccups come to mind:
> 
> 
> the cost of the testing &
> ...


To test for the chemical in soil I was told by the farmer who checked on it you had to test for each specific chemical so not having any idea what it is for sure it was cost prohibitive.IIRc it was about $150 for each chemical.Some premixes used here may have 2-3. Chems in them so it was a shot in the dark testing.

Yea it's a big coop.They run 6 air flows and 6 sprayers out of that location.Some chemicals are in bulk also so even with inventory checks would they mis a few gallons of product?

It's 21 acres.Seed cost is bad enough but lost a yr of production also.

I just hope it don't fail again.

Part that gets me is agronomist from Coop says cant be chem when everyone else says it points to it.


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## weedman (Jul 12, 2019)

It is strange that it came up fine then turned brown. Regardless, if it were something that would persist like one of the pyridine chemistries, a simple cup test would show symptoms. Collect soil from various spots, put into cups, then seed soybeans, which tend to be fairly sensitive. If any is present, the beans will show it.,


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> To test for the chemical in soil I was told by the farmer who checked on it you had to test for each specific chemical so not having any idea what it is for sure it was cost prohibitive.IIRc it was about $150 for each chemical.Some premixes used here may have 2-3. Chems in them so it was a shot in the dark testing.
> 
> Yea it's a big coop.They run 6 air flows and 6 sprayers out of that location.Some chemicals are in bulk also so even with inventory checks would they mis a few gallons of product?
> 
> ...


What if instead of paying for a bunch of individual tests, plant several types of seeds and see what grows and what doesn't and use that to narrow down the chemical possibilities? And then maybe only have to test for one or two?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

weedman said:


> It is strange that it came up fine then turned brown. Regardless, if it were something that would persist like one of the pyridine chemistries, a simple cup test would show symptoms. Collect soil from various spots, put into cups, then seed soybeans, which tend to be fairly sensitive. If any is present, the beans will show it.,


Good idea except Flexstar is a soybean Herbicide that has 18 month restriction for planting alfalfa.Its one that I suspect as it can damage or kill corn the yr after spraying on soybeans if it hasn't broken down in soil.I had it happen once when it stayed very dry after spraying in drought yr and over clay knobs it killed or stunted corn after it emerged and was a ft tall.

What ever it is it didn't effect germ but as the plant got bigger it took in more from the soil and effected it


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

8350HiTech said:


> What if instead of paying for a bunch of individual tests, plant several types of seeds and see what grows and what doesn't and use that to narrow down the chemical possibilities? And then maybe only have to test for one or two?


I was hoping to find pics on internet for herbicide damage to alfalfa.Had a few like atrazine and parquat.Pretty easy to find out stuff like this if it were corn or beans but with alfalfa being the step child of crops it sure makes it tougher.

It would be pretty hard to figure out how much chemical to put in a flower pot to duplicate a normal spray application also


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

took these pics yesterday 20 days after reseeding.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> I was hoping to find pics on internet for herbicide damage to alfalfa.Had a few like atrazine and parquat.Pretty easy to find out stuff like this if it were corn or beans but with alfalfa being the step child of crops it sure makes it tougher.
> 
> It would be pretty hard to figure out how much chemical to put in a flower pot to duplicate a normal spray application also


I didn't mean to put the chem in the flower pot. I meant out various seeds in a pot using soil from the field.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

8350HiTech said:


> I didn't mean to put the chem in the flower pot. I meant out various seeds in a pot using soil from the field.


Where does one start,so many variables.All I know is it didn't effect germination but killed the plant after it got to 3-4" tall.

Just thinking what something like Tordon,Grazon,etc that if sprayed on grass.Baled up weeks later and then mixed with other feed and diluted more.Then the manure hauled in field months later and is still enough to kill soybeans.Might only take few ozs to be enough to kill 20 acres if it contaminated the fertilizer somehow.

Sure looks similar to what Tordon does to soybeans


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