# Floor on hay storage?



## jd6400

What are you guys storing your hay on, dirt,concrete,plastic,sand,pallets?Planning my building and have heard a bunch of views on what works best for flooring.Would especially like to know what Ohio Hay does in his coverall buildings.I will be running a grapple on a skidsteer inside.What about ventilation. Planning 50`x 150x14h at eaves, this will be a metal freespan building.Will have a 14`leanto the whole length. Thanks Jim


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## Feed Hay

What I do is put a layer of gravel down, then I covered it with plastic, fairly thick, I cannot remember the mil size. Then I put down pallets I got from a local warehouse and fixed them up a bit. They are kept at an end of my tool shed. There is a wall between the storage area and my equipment and workshop. It was that way when I bought the place. Because of that I am real careful about mositure, if you know what I mean. I have some big livestock fans like you get at tractor supply that I have used this year and I kept some space between the stacks.


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## OhioHay

We have a gravel base in one coverall and a pole building. We have clay base in two coveralls and we rent a pole building with a sand base. It doesn't really seem to matter which base there is to start with. We then put down 6 mil plastic(have used 4 mil that worked good too). Then we put down pallets. We only get one years use out of the plastic. It seems there are too many pinholes to get a second year's use without the hay getting dusty. I have a friend that has a cement base, and he still has to use plastic and pallets if you want to sell that bottom layer. I have heard that you can stack directly on asphalt and the hay will keep just fine with no moisture issues. I don't know if it is true. Does anybody do that? I also met a guy from PA that doesn't put down plastic, he just uses pallets. He sprays the pallets with propionic acid before stacking on them. He says that it works good, but I haven't tried it. As for ventilation, the coveralls have an open wall with a dairy barn style curtain on the sides that can be rolled up and down. The pole barns we use are three sided and seem to keep good without any extra fans. If I was going to build a metal building, I would consider looking into styling it like a dairy barn with curtains for the top 4 feet or so. Just a thought.


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## TooFast4U

We built a metal shed mostly for hay storage a few years ago. It's mostly a 3-sided pole shed, but we had a door put in one end and had large louvered vents put in both ends. I don't know if those vents help much, but my thought is that they would help heat escape from the roof area and aid the natural flow of air in/around/above the hay.

Whenever we put new hay in the building--especially if that hay is a bit "green"--we try to leave the end door open. It faces the south, and we normally have a southern breeze here in summer, so it lets air move through the building better.

We store hay on pallets, on gravel. That isn't always enough to keep the bottom layer in good shape. I think a lot depends on the year (average humidity) and ambient conditions when the hay was placed in storage.

I saw an article some years ago about a guy who built a hay building with a u-trough down the center, covered with a grate. He could force air down the u-trough under his hay stack. Sounded like a good idea. I have some old grain bin dryer tubing (perforated metal, about 12" diameter) to which a small bin fan can be attached. I always thought that might help, if put under the stack of hay...but I've never had time (?or ambition?) to get that done during the fast pace of hay harvest.


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## astropilot

The migration of the moisture is not from the bales, it from the ground. I in the past have put a layer of thick mil plastic down on bare earth then several inches of gravel then the pallets. It works well. If you are putting in concrete floor then make sure of a good vapor barrier before the concrete and ample curing time for the concrete,its a source of moisture too as it cures. I would also consider the inside part of the roof, it can sweat and that can cause problems too. Has anyone had problems with the cover-all style building sweating?


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## Production Acres

Putting plastic under your hay only helps if you have a wet spot in your barn floor before you put the hay down. 90% of mildew problems in the bottom layer of hay come from the hay itself, not the ground, provided your barn has ample drainage. What happens is that when you put your hay in the barn, gravity pulls moisture from the entire stack to the bottom of the stack and you get mold. This problem is accentuated with concrete as it heats up during the day and pulls the moisture to it, then as you have plastic under the concrete, the moisture cannot leave and it is pulled back to the bottom layer of hay and just sits there creating a mildew layer. Barns with dirt floors or gravel bases that are normally dry do just fine with a good pallet under the hay. Our main barn has a concrete floor and we put a single pallet down and had disasterous results. Put small ventilation fans in back of barn to stir air and still had problems. To solve the problem, we went to the back of the barn, put 3' fans in back wall every 25' pulling air out of the barn, and stacked the hay on 2 pallets, thus 8" high - problem solved.
Hay that has been stored for a month or two can be brought to this same barn and stored directly on the concrete indifently with no problems whatsoever. The problem is with new hay and its residual moisture.
Ventilation in the top of the barn is not an issue. If your air was at 50% humidity at 1' off the ground and at 75 deg, by the time it was at the ceiling and at 20', it would be at 85deg. Now, as you know hot air expands, thus the air at the ground at 50% humidity is now only 30-40% humid and can actually absorb more water out of the top layer of hay. So even tho we used to worry about getting the heat out of the top of the barn, that heat actually works as a "hay dryer".
Putting fans in the walls and blowing air into your barn doesn't work either. look at the hog and chicken houses, they have vents in one end of the barn and pull air out of the barn on the other end. You are looking to make a "air exchange". This doesn't work when it is raining or at night with a heavy dew, but the principle is that you have to get the moist heavy cool air out of the bottom of the stack.
We also stack the hay in rows 16-20' high x 8' wide x 80-100' long leaving 2' between stacks for ventilation.
barns with dirt or sawdust or stone bases sometimes work well as the moisture is wicked out of the hay and continues to go on into the ground away from the hay, the downside to these barns is that your skidloader will tear holes in the floor.


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## greenacres

Alfalfa/Hay/silage page 3 under WHAT DO YOU STORE HAY ON 6-11-08
I have two shed this way since 1989 and I have had NO problems
(just for information, a lot of questions have been asked before in previous blogs, some the same, some similar) 
Tom


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## jd6400

For all the replies, now I`m really confused.....lol, I`m going to be experimenting next year. Kinda like Greenacres with the lime, but seems the general public is using pallets.Thanks again.Hey Ohio Hay,you duck hunt Killbuck at all?


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## 4020man

We put pallets down, then we put plastic on top of the pallets. I'll post some pics in a day or 2


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## 4020man

Here you go, There's plastic on top of the pallets. They are sitting on cement but its the same principal as a dirt floor.


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## OhioHay

I don't do any Duck hunting JD 6400. Got a brother n law that does. It it doesn't have a white tail and four legs, I don't get too excited. We are shooting with damage permits right now with rifles...talk about fun!!!!! Do have some guys geese hunting on the farm this week too.


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## enos

Two things I know for sure in hay farming is #1 An asphalt floor in a hay barn will fix any moisture transfer/spoilage issues of the bottom bales and #2 I can't remember. The oil in asphalt seals and does not allow moisture in or out(stays in bale) Did our shed 20 years ago and it paid for it self in first year. 20 bales per row on bottom, 25 rows, 500 bales at $5.00 back then = $2500. I think it cost about that to pave it. Just backed the paver down the barn. Call around to paving outfits, a tonne of mix covers 90 square feet 2 inches thick, probably around $175 per tonne placed if the base is preped well. We sloped ours about 2 percent to back wall and it really helped out with the bale wagon to stack. Also paved the floor in a old concrete bunk silo that was eaten up by acid in silage, 20 year and smooth as ever. So much easier on cutting edges, tires etc when loading it out.


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## Production Acres

enos, 
fix your profile to show your location - so much of what you say depends on what part of the country you live in. I have heard many hay growers in the dakotas that have paved and it worked well - never seen it tried in the south - curious as to how it would work.


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## enos

I farm on an island off the west coast of BC, Actual rain forest climate. I don't know how that would to compare to your local but it is wet here in the fall/winter. Even when it is summer the damp rolls in off ocean about 8:00pm, done for the day. The pavement works well here. So nice to clean up too, just drop the loader bucket and sweep it out. One neighbor who has a concrete floor saw ours and coated his with foundation sealer, worked for a while but his bale wagon load racks sorta peeled it off. It was a happy day when I burned all the pallets, boards and plastic we used to screw with. Rat condos in them things.


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## swmnhay

enos,how well does 2" of asphalt hold up?.How heavy of equipment do you get on it?What kinda base underneath it?


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## enos

Holds up well if base is done properly. 6" of 3/4 crush graded and then compacted with a double drum roller. Same way they do mall parking lots. No problem with farm tractor, trucks etc. Just stay off with grandpa's D7 cat. The asphalt is laid down 3 inches thick and then compacted with a roller down to 2 inch. Bale wagon load rack will mark it a bit if it is real hot out but never been a real problem. It's been there 20 years or so and still looks good. We did a old bunk silo with concrete floor and walls, over laid the floor. The hay had mold on it where ever it touched the walls but not on the floor. Just one thing, if you are parking tractors over winter in the barn, make sure there are no fuel leaks, diesel eats the asphalt up.


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## UpNorth

Learn something new everyday. Who would thought that asphalt we be that slick. If anyone is going to have the potential for rotten hay that would be you enos. You say you've had it that way for 20 years without a problem in your wet climate?


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## swmnhay

Pr Acres mentioned guy in SD that had alot of asphalt.That would be Freeburg Hay Co.Was there a few yrs back with hay and he had a large area paved outside maybe 500'x500'.Since than they were redoing hiway in front of his place and setup hotmix plant on his place.He then had them do ALOT.Forget the area but it was maybe 5 acres.

Was an article about it in Hay & Forage Grower mag awile back.

When I was there he told me they were at 3500 acres of hay.


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## enos

Up North
No problem on the bottom of the stack with mold, we do get fog rolling in the barn in the fall pretty bad. Hay used to get a green, moldy dust on the outside of the bales. ( Grass hay is under 10% moisture when baled, sucks the fog right in) Tried tarps, plastic etc then went to breaking and spreading a few of last years bales over the stack about 1 inch deep and let that absorb moisture and hay kept pretty good through winter. Pretty bad conditions when it still gets wet inside with a new roof and doors on barn. Reading about some of the other folks on here who bale at night, rehydrating, stopping baling because it's too dry would be a welcome change.


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## UpNorth

Enos,

Is there any way you could shift some your hay making to silage making? What's your end market for your hay right now?


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## Rodney R

enos,
In the last post you talked about using some loose hay - from last years bales - on the floor..... you do that now over the asphalt, or the asphalt is clean when you stack hay on it? We use a stackwagon, and I load a pallet each time, for each stack.... In the course of a year, it takes a lot of time, and a lot of space is used up to store the things, and the grabber would like it much better (the buildings too) if the stacks were all 3 inches closer to the ground....

We have one cement floor, and the first year it was bad, but it is getting MUCH better, and will equal the floors with sawdust and plastic on them, over dirt.....

Rodney


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## enos

UpNorth said:


> Enos,
> 
> Is there any way you could shift some your hay making to silage making? What's your end market for your hay right now?


The same ones you all love to hate or hate to love. Horse girls. Money is in the idiot cubes. About twice the return as round bale silage. During the summer we do get some good stretches of weather but there is lots of 4-5 day sprints to get it in the barn.


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## enos

Rodney R, 
We put the broken hay on top of stack to keep the fog off. On the floor, just whatever dusts off the 1033 NH bale wagon when I stack the load. No problem there. How do you get the pallet to work around the load rack, do you stick it over the forks before you head to the field? I tried 2x4's on a dirt floor in a rented barn once but just ended up dragging wood out of the barn and swearing.


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## UpNorth

Couldn't have said it better myself. Have you every used any acids or microbes?


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## Cascade farmer

enos said:


> Up North
> No problem on the bottom of the stack with mold, we do get fog rolling in the barn in the fall pretty bad. Hay used to get a green, moldy dust on the outside of the bales. ( Grass hay is under 10% moisture when baled, sucks the fog right in) Tried tarps, plastic etc then went to breaking and spreading a few of last years bales over the stack about 1 inch deep and let that absorb moisture and hay kept pretty good through winter. Pretty bad conditions when it still gets wet inside with a new roof and doors on barn. Reading about some of the other folks on here who bale at night, rehydrating, stopping baling because it's too dry would be a welcome change.


 Just down south of you in Washington we get that fog every so often and it covers the bales. Covering with loose hay sounds ok.Might try paving my floor next year with asphalt,right now just using pallets with 7/16 plywood over it or a tarp on gravel.Thanks for sharing info.


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## Rodney R

The pallet gets loaded right after I unload a stack, just back over to the pile, and wrestle one on. The hydraulic load rack takes it right up, not sure if on a PT it would work - most of those just use springs, right? Most of the pallets are just plain cattle panel and he 2x4's, this one uses cattle panel and some thin boards. You can see the 2x4's are between each fork on the load rack, and the high tech baler twine keeps the pallet from falling front. They work alright here, but it would be much nicer to just pave the floor with asphalt.










Rodney


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## enos

So is there a particular bad kid/employee that you make pick those up in the spring? Covered with hay chaff that would look like rat and snake heaven. The picture make sense how to keep the bales off the floor. Try a peice of the floor with asphalt next year and see how you like it.


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## Rodney R

enos,
The guy who has to pick them up is either my dad or myself. Once we outload a stack, the pallet needs to get moved. I stack them about 5-10 high by hand, and then the forklift stacks them the rest of the way - by the time I have about 30 high, it's high enough. We have very little chaff in the buildings - most of the chaff that is there now is from broken bales. Nearly no snakes in the buildings, ever. Mice yes, and I have some rats in the one shed. We use several pails of poison every year, but the most effective rodent control is when the cats get hungry. If the hay doesn't get over mature, we have nearly zero problem with mice chewing strings, or burrowing/nesting in bales. I like the idea of asphalt. The pallets work, but it would save a lot of time and trouble to eliminate them from the system.

Rodney


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## MikeRF

enos said:


> Up North
> No problem on the bottom of the stack with mold, we do get fog rolling in the barn in the fall pretty bad. Hay used to get a green, moldy dust on the outside of the bales. ( Grass hay is under 10% moisture when baled, sucks the fog right in) Tried tarps, plastic etc then went to breaking and spreading a few of last years bales over the stack about 1 inch deep and let that absorb moisture and hay kept pretty good through winter. Pretty bad conditions when it still gets wet inside with a new roof and doors on barn. Reading about some of the other folks on here who bale at night, rehydrating, stopping baling because it's too dry would be a welcome change.


Just curious, Enos. Does the fog ever create floor moisture problems for you? 
Asphalt does not let moisture in from underneath but I guess in the same way it doesn't let it out either.
At present we use 2 layers of plastic on top of gravel successfully but would like to save the time/money this entales in our 60x180x18 pole barn (3 sides steel, 1 side board). Have been considering asphalt for a couple of years and really like the convenience and ease of cleaning aspect.


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## enos

MikeRF said:


> Just curious, Enos. Does the fog ever create floor moisture problems for you?
> Asphalt does not let moisture in from underneath but I guess in the same way it doesn't let it out either.
> At present we use 2 layers of plastic on top of gravel successfully but would like to save the time/money this entales in our 60x180x18 pole barn (3 sides steel, 1 side board). Have been considering asphalt for a couple of years and really like the convenience and ease of cleaning aspect.


Mike
Floor is bone dry over summer. Asphalt does not let moisture up from ground or down out of hay. Just fog problems in over winter storage. 120' long pole shed and you can hardly see the end. The ONLY thing that didn't wet or moldy was the bottom bales. Once I started spreading a bit of last years hay over the top of the stack and kept the face of stack really straight we stopped losing so much of the top bales. At $10.00 per 55# bale I can do a little more work.


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## hayfarmer

How long did you let the asphalt cure (dry out and loose odor) before you stacked hay on it? Down here in Louisiana we have 90-100 degree summers, do you think the asphalt will get too soft in that it would allow the oil in the asphalt come to the surface and stain the bottom bales? I know its asking a lot but would you mind posting some pictures. Thanks for all the info, I am about to pull my hair out trying to save my bottom bales. Tried the pallets on my 1033 stack liner and the forks hang up.


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## enos

Hay Farmer
We did it in the spring, stacked on it in the summer (end of june) no problems with oil. I think we put a dusting of old hay chaff down the first year. If the asphalt is placed properly, on compacted gravel and rolled it should not bleed out/turn soft. Do they use it on the roads in Louisiana? Or concrete? If it holds highway truck traffic it should hold up to the 1033 load racks. Call a paving outfit and get a quote. Make sure it is Hot Mix, not the cold stuff they use for patching potholes in winter. I'll try and get some pictures


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## kfarm_EC_IL

Has anyone used the FSA / USDA Hay storage building loans? If so how did it work out for you? Good or bad?

Says that you can remodel older storage as well as build new. Also some wording about permant buiding and I was wondering if the coveralls classify as permant?

Thanks
Mark


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## swmnhay

Didn't know hay storage qualified.I'll have to look into it and see if it is worth jumping threw the hoops.


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## kfarm_EC_IL

Well that is one of the questions I can't really get a handle on. We get a monthly newletter from the FSA office and it talked about this program. And I even went so far as to ask the fellow at the office about it briefly. However have not been able to find very much about it on the net. That is why I asked. I'd like to know what you found out. Thanks
Mark


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## hayfarmer

I think there was a article in the recent Progressive Farmer mag. regarding the program.


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## maknhay

It seems alot of you folks that make small squares use bale wagons. We use a Steffen 10 bale accumulator and bale fork. So, what we have done for years is put down a pack of cow feed on the floor first. When I say cow feed I mean lower quality grass or slough hay that we bale in feild corners, headlands or draws that will be fed to our stock cows anyway. Yeah, this waste's space in the shed but I always figured good hay on the floor is wasted too. Also, it's alot quicker and easier using the loader and fork to move these in and out rather than pallets and plastic. This also serves as a very good buffer to soak up ground moisture and out of the hay above when it's going through the sweat. We've never had a mouse or rat issue in hay......there's no food to speak of. Now straw on the other hand is a problem, no combine gets all the grain out so the rodents will always have a food source.

My 3x3's on the other hand, I haven't figured this one out yet. It's not as big an issue because most big bales are fed in a way that most folks accept it. I did have a buttload of old plywood that I used in one corner and it worked well. The loaders just drive over it and it stays fairly well. If I could run onto a sweet deal on enough to do the whole shed I would consider it. Asphalt is definetly in my radar when the funds allow it


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## Grateful11

We had a 24'x48' shed built with 16' height and didn't really get time to do anything to the 
dirt floor so we had several straw round bales and just rolled out about 6" of fluffy straw and 
we've had no spoilage on the bottom of the round bales. We were really quite surprised.


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## b2jrg

enos said:


> Holds up well if base is done properly. 6" of 3/4 crush graded and then compacted with a double drum roller. Same way they do mall parking lots. No problem with farm tractor, trucks etc. Just stay off with grandpa's D7 cat. The asphalt is laid down 3 inches thick and then compacted with a roller down to 2 inch. Bale wagon load rack will mark it a bit if it is real hot out but never been a real problem. It's been there 20 years or so and still looks good. We did a old bunk silo with concrete floor and walls, over laid the floor. The hay had mold on it where ever it touched the walls but not on the floor. Just one thing, if you are parking tractors over winter in the barn, make sure there are no fuel leaks, diesel eats the asphalt up.


I have a 98 x 54 three sided pole barn. I use a 1049 bale wagon. I was told by an engineer that I would need at least 4 inches of blacktop because of the weight of the loaded balewagon. The quote was $17,000.

I currently put plastic down and then put the black fiberous filter fabric on top of the plastic. I cut the plastic and filter fabric to set each stack of hay on. I back the balewagon into the barn over the plastic and filter fabric and set it down. I have lost very few bales to moisture. I have used the plastic for 4 years. The filter fabric will probably last forever. I plan to use new plastic for 2010.


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## enos

b2jrg said:


> I have a 98 x 54 three sided pole barn. I use a 1049 bale wagon. I was told by an engineer that I would need at least 4 inches of blacktop because of the weight of the loaded balewagon. The quote was $17,000.
> 
> I currently put plastic down and then put the black fiberous filter fabric on top of the plastic. I cut the plastic and filter fabric to set each stack of hay on. I back the balewagon into the barn over the plastic and filter fabric and set it down. I have lost very few bales to moisture. I have used the plastic for 4 years. The filter fabric will probably last forever. I plan to use new plastic for 2010.


I don't know what your bale size is but near as I can figure your shed will hold around 11000 bales? Bottom lift is around 1500? These are just rough guesses. Even at $5.00 per bale your bottom row is $7500. The gravel base is what holds the weight if properly compacted, not the asphalt, so 2 inches can work. One way is to put 2 inches in and if you find it not holding up, put another lift on. Should be able to cut the quote by 40%. In our case we were putting something down anyway to make clean up and wagon dumping better. (had enough of pallets, rats) But if you have a way that works good, stick with it. That's what these forums are for to find out different ways of doing things.


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## swmnhay

[quote name='b2jrg']I have a 98 x 54 three sided pole barn. I use a 1049 bale wagon. I was told by an engineer that I would need at least 4 inches of blacktop because of the weight of the loaded balewagon. The quote was $17,000.

I've never priced any asphalt but I always thought it was cheaper than concrete.
To have concrete poured HERE with rebar 2 x 2 you could have it done from 160-200 a yd.At 4" thick it would take 65.33 yds and be from 10,500-13,100.This is if there is a good base to begin with.

Maybe get another bid.


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## Hogleg

What about a good base of CA6 gravel and then those horse mats that I see sold everywhere. I plan to start baling 4x4 this year and am looking for storage options. I want them less that 1000# so that I can use my small utility tractor to stack them in the storage barns.

John


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## Mike120

Hogleg said:


> What about a good base of CA6 gravel and then those horse mats that I see sold everywhere. John


Interesting thought....I've got them in all of my stalls. Downside is that if there isn't a good, level base repeated flexing will cause them to break down and age will cause them to curl at the edges. I'd be concerned that with a gravel base, driving on them would break them down sooner. The upside is they last a long time......almost forever if they're on concrete.

There are a couple of places where you can buy rolls of the stuff or 12' X 12' mats. I hate handling the little 4' X 6' mats so I can't imagine the hassle of anything bigger. I'd be more inclined to look at a geotextile fabric.


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## enos

Mike, there is some new mats a customer put in her barn that interlock kinda like lego, they should hold up and not shift around/ roll up. Have to ask her where she got them, how much a square foot.


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## johndeere

I have a newer free stall dairy barn and we have rubber mats over the concrete. We have the mats that lock together, and they are sold by a company called Animat. There web is Animat: World Leader in Rubber Flooring


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## NDVA HAYMAN

One option you might consider is what I use. They are old conveyor belting from stone ,sand and gravel quarries. They are usually from 2-4 ft. wide. They are very thick and hard as heck to handle and cut but can be done with a loader tractor and a sawzall. Most quarries will give them to you for free. I have never had to pay for any of this material. Have never put it under round bales but that might be an option also. Mike


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