# Can’t See it!



## JLT (4 mo ago)

Guys I’ve been doing research on baling hay here in Northwest GA and I can’t make the numbers work, I’ve got to give it to you custom hay operations, y’all are a whole lot smarter than me! Lol, Just looking on FB Market Place & Craig’s List and it’s full of round , square, all size bales in around my county, and it ranges from $50-$20 per bale for round and $8-3 for small square bales. Why do folks just fold on prices , you can see where they have lowered by $5 then $10 and so on and winters not even here It was 75 degrees today. I mean if you have the money to have at the minimum $50k worth of equipment (and that would be auction junk), then why the heck are you giving the stuff away? Even if you have the equipment for your own farm it still don’t make sense.
I guess I’m just venting, like I’ve posted before, I’m an over the road owner/operator trucker and always dreamed of having cows and bush hogging and cutting hay, but dang that’s an expensive hobby. Done bought the tractor and bush hog so I guess my son will have a nice cab tractor to bush hog 24 acres. I guess the good thing is I haven’t bought any hay equipment at least. I appreciate y’all letting me snoop around on here and learn and dream and watch y’all do something for the life of me I can’t make it work on paper. If y’all know the secret looks like it will stay a secret. Lol


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## AndyH359 (Jan 3, 2012)

If you got the rig, consider hauling hay south. Here in Western PA small squares of grass hay are running in the $5-6/ bale range. Same hay fetches $10-12 in Raleigh and $20+ in Florida.


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## calico190xt (9 mo ago)

I think my son and I have turned the corner on custom baling finally after 10 years. I used to buy all of my round bales for my 8 brood cows, then I bought some ground and made hay fields out of them. I bought a hay rake and an old hesston haybine. Had a 65 HP tractor and spent 2 years doing that with someone else round baling. The guy doing my round baling got out of the business so I bought an old M&W baler. Round baled my own for 2 years with that stuff. Son wanted to do custom round baling and he got a couple of customers that needed hundreds of bales done. So, I bought a bigger tractor and a JD round baler and he paid for half the round baler in the first year. 2nd year paid for the rest of the round baler and part of the tractor. He was 16 and didn't need a bunch of cash. We decided to plant more hay and sell excess. Over the last 2 years, he rented land, had some land given to him so his cash rents average very low. Last year, I saw opportunity to sell hay to horse track and that has really helped. They demand quality and they pay for quality and they are regular buyers. I do have to store it for them but I like the fact they don't shop around and I haven't had to drop prices like you allude to. Some people have to drop prices because they have no storage or a market. We matched expenses with revenues. After 10 years, I have upgraded quite a bit but I took it year by year and bought stuff that matched the revenues. Son is off at college now but he makes very good money for only working in the summer. Hay making is paying for his tuition and most of his boarding. Just like all of farming and most other businesses, you spend years acquiring assets and then you only get the big part of the proceeds when you sell out. I figure I can get about 2/3 of my money back on my equipment. I also did Section 179 Tax deductions, which depending upon your tax bracket can save you around 25% of the overall purchase price for equipment. It has become a viable business but I cash flowed it from my off farm business and I let my son borrow some money for equipment to teach a few lessons. I haven't gotten all of my money back but I have gotten a fair amount of it. I should be good in about 3 years assuming no major breaks. So, 13 years is a long time. I agree with you that you would need to buy in the range of $80k-$100k of decent equipment to handle enough hay to make a living off of it, excluding land rents or buying land. If you don't have a market for your hay, you can lose a lot of money. That is a step that many miss. Older guys are getting out of haymaking, and younger guys can't afford to buy all of the equipment nor want to ruin their summers but there is opportunity to make a living at it or at least supplement your income. I visited a guy that makes 20,000 small squares a year and claims he sold them all at $8/bale and that got me excited. I don't think he owns all of the ground that he bales either and he does nothing else but make hay. There are guys on this list that make really good money at haymaking and make tons of hay but most all of them took a long time to get there. I encourage you to look at all angles and start small. I didn't have a cab tractor until 5 years ago and it had no A/C. I am really wanting to buy a day cab semi with a flatbed to move more hay, faster. You have the big rig so that would help you. I believe there are many angles to getting into haymaking. Now the cows are a different story. I loved raising cows, and used them to eat the hay that I didn't sell or was marginal in quality, but I got rid of them. You have to have a lot of cows to make good money and I didn't have the resources. Hope you can figure something out but I understand your frustration.


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## JLT (4 mo ago)

calico190xt said:


> I think my son and I have turned the corner on custom baling finally after 10 years. I used to buy all of my round bales for my 8 brood cows, then I bought some ground and made hay fields out of them. I bought a hay rake and an old hesston haybine. Had a 65 HP tractor and spent 2 years doing that with someone else round baling. The guy doing my round baling got out of the business so I bought an old M&W baler. Round baled my own for 2 years with that stuff. Son wanted to do custom round baling and he got a couple of customers that needed hundreds of bales done. So, I bought a bigger tractor and a JD round baler and he paid for half the round baler in the first year. 2nd year paid for the rest of the round baler and part of the tractor. He was 16 and didn't need a bunch of cash. We decided to plant more hay and sell excess. Over the last 2 years, he rented land, had some land given to him so his cash rents average very low. Last year, I saw opportunity to sell hay to horse track and that has really helped. They demand quality and they pay for quality and they are regular buyers. I do have to store it for them but I like the fact they don't shop around and I haven't had to drop prices like you allude to. Some people have to drop prices because they have no storage or a market. We matched expenses with revenues. After 10 years, I have upgraded quite a bit but I took it year by year and bought stuff that matched the revenues. Son is off at college now but he makes very good money for only working in the summer. Hay making is paying for his tuition and most of his boarding. Just like all of farming and most other businesses, you spend years acquiring assets and then you only get the big part of the proceeds when you sell out. I figure I can get about 2/3 of my money back on my equipment. I also did Section 179 Tax deductions, which depending upon your tax bracket can save you around 25% of the overall purchase price for equipment. It has become a viable business but I cash flowed it from my off farm business and I let my son borrow some money for equipment to teach a few lessons. I haven't gotten all of my money back but I have gotten a fair amount of it. I should be good in about 3 years assuming no major breaks. So, 13 years is a long time. I agree with you that you would need to buy in the range of $80k-$100k of decent equipment to handle enough hay to make a living off of it, excluding land rents or buying land. If you don't have a market for your hay, you can lose a lot of money. That is a step that many miss. Older guys are getting out of haymaking, and younger guys can't afford to buy all of the equipment nor want to ruin their summers but there is opportunity to make a living at it or at least supplement your income. I visited a guy that makes 20,000 small squares a year and claims he sold them all at $8/bale and that got me excited. I don't think he owns all of the ground that he bales either and he does nothing else but make hay. There are guys on this list that make really good money at haymaking and make tons of hay but most all of them took a long time to get there. I encourage you to look at all angles and start small. I didn't have a cab tractor until 5 years ago and it had no A/C. I am really wanting to buy a day cab semi with a flatbed to move more hay, faster. You have the big rig so that would help you. I believe there are many angles to getting into haymaking. Now the cows are a different story. I loved raising cows, and used them to eat the hay that I didn't sell or was marginal in quality, but I got rid of them. You have to have a lot of cows to make good money and I didn't have the resources. Hope you can figure something out but I understand your frustration.


Thank you calico190xt for the encouragement, I guess I just don’t have the patience, I would really like to set my self apart from other custom balers, I don’t mind putting in the work or money if I could do maybe a better quality hay or down here in GA alfalfa is VERY rare as far as growing, it’s for sale but usually brown out of state. I have some good bottom land that belongs to a family,(distant kin) that tue Patriarch passed a couple years ago and it growled up and I just bush hogged it last week and couldn’t believe how thick the grass was when I started, I thought it was only weeds,one of the sons said when I cut it the grass will pop right up, but anyway I thought about trying to grow some alfalfa on it this com spring to just see what happens.


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## calico190xt (9 mo ago)

I think you should do something, and getting a hay field started is a good step. I would suggest that you might want to put 10%-20% orchard grass/alfalfa mix instead of pure alfalfa. My experience is that the alfalfa/orchard grass mix dries better, reduces stems and provides a good looking product. You do have to be careful if the bottom land has any standing water areas as it will drown out the alfalfa. Alfalfa needs well drained soil. Years ago I argued that it costs the same amount of money to cut, rake, bale marginal hay as it does for premium hay so I have focused on making the best hay I can. Not long after we got started, some hay fields fell into our laps just because no one else would mess with them. They were too small to get big equipment for row crops into and they were too big to mow. We have a lot of 4-5 acre fields that we pay no rent for just so the owners don't have to pay to have them mowed. We even had one guy pay for the hay seed, diesel fuel and our time to plant the field and we get the hay off of the field. It was a wierd deal but he thought he was not going to sell it anytime soon and he didn't want it growing up in weeds. We stipulated that if he sold it in the first year he had to pay us back for everything. He then sold it so we got all our money back and then the new owners did not want to build anything on the 12 acres anytime soon. So we continue to get they hay off of it and that was 3 years ago. I think once you get started, you may as well have some land or baling opportunities that will fall into your lap and make it more profitable for you and worth your time. But you have to get started. The small squares are more profitable but they require handling and many buyers. The big rounds are easy to make but do require bigger equipment to move and transport. We now try to small square everything we can but if the weather doesn't cooperate or the hay quality falls apart, we then round bale it and try to wrap as soon as we can. I bought a new wrapper for $4k this past year and charge $5 extra for wrapped round bales. Cheaper than barn space and other than surface mold where the plastic touches the hay, it seems to keep the bales nice. I think I have about 100 left to sell. You can hire someone to wrap the bales to avoid buying a wrapper if you have no barn space.

I suggest finding an outlet for your hay before you bale it, if you can. That will give you an idea on the mix of small squares to big rounds you need. I would recommend you gather facts about your field conditions and see what works in your area and the best time to plant the hay. Getting that hay field started right is an important first step. What works in Indiana doesn't necessarily work in Georgia. You have all winter to get a good plan together. I am guessing in Georgia you can start maybe as early as mid to late March to plant hay. For me it is mid April to early May. Our county extension office has a hay seeder available so check to see if they have one. You could rent a disc or hire someone to prepare the soil for planting. Save your cash for investing in making hay. There are ways to cut corners and get that hay field planted. I recommend leaf hopper resistant Alfalfa but not sure that is a problem in Georgia. I would also suggest that your kin guarantee you at least 3 years of rights to the hay if you spend the time, money to plant a nice hay stand. You probably should fertilize it to get a good start but since it has been in grass it doesn't have row crop nutrient depletion so it should produce as long as it doesn't get drowned out. Main thing is to make sure it gets started right. I had to replant a hay field 2 years ago because it didn't get rain like it should have and that was a big loss. 

There's lots more to consider as you go but just keep asking on here as you proceed to next steps. There are guys on here that know far more than I.


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## JLT (4 mo ago)

calico190xt said:


> I think you should do something, and getting a hay field started is a good step. I would suggest that you might want to put 10%-20% orchard grass/alfalfa mix instead of pure alfalfa. My experience is that the alfalfa/orchard grass mix dries better, reduces stems and provides a good looking product. You do have to be careful if the bottom land has any standing water areas as it will drown out the alfalfa. Alfalfa needs well drained soil. Years ago I argued that it costs the same amount of money to cut, rake, bale marginal hay as it does for premium hay so I have focused on making the best hay I can. Not long after we got started, some hay fields fell into our laps just because no one else would mess with them. They were too small to get big equipment for row crops into and they were too big to mow. We have a lot of 4-5 acre fields that we pay no rent for just so the owners don't have to pay to have them mowed. We even had one guy pay for the hay seed, diesel fuel and our time to plant the field and we get the hay off of the field. It was a wierd deal but he thought he was not going to sell it anytime soon and he didn't want it growing up in weeds. We stipulated that if he sold it in the first year he had to pay us back for everything. He then sold it so we got all our money back and then the new owners did not want to build anything on the 12 acres anytime soon. So we continue to get they hay off of it and that was 3 years ago. I think once you get started, you may as well have some land or baling opportunities that will fall into your lap and make it more profitable for you and worth your time. But you have to get started. The small squares are more profitable but they require handling and many buyers. The big rounds are easy to make but do require bigger equipment to move and transport. We now try to small square everything we can but if the weather doesn't cooperate or the hay quality falls apart, we then round bale it and try to wrap as soon as we can. I bought a new wrapper for $4k this past year and charge $5 extra for wrapped round bales. Cheaper than barn space and other than surface mold where the plastic touches the hay, it seems to keep the bales nice. I think I have about 100 left to sell. You can hire someone to wrap the bales to avoid buying a wrapper if you have no barn space.
> 
> I suggest finding an outlet for your hay before you bale it, if you can. That will give you an idea on the mix of small squares to big rounds you need. I would recommend you gather facts about your field conditions and see what works in your area and the best time to plant the hay. Getting that hay field started right is an important first step. What works in Indiana doesn't necessarily work in Georgia. You have all winter to get a good plan together. I am guessing in Georgia you can start maybe as early as mid to late March to plant hay. For me it is mid April to early May. Our county extension office has a hay seeder available so check to see if they have one. You could rent a disc or hire someone to prepare the soil for planting. Save your cash for investing in making hay. There are ways to cut corners and get that hay field planted. I recommend leaf hopper resistant Alfalfa but not sure that is a problem in Georgia. I would also suggest that your kin guarantee you at least 3 years of rights to the hay if you spend the time, money to plant a nice hay stand. You probably should fertilize it to get a good start but since it has been in grass it doesn't have row crop nutrient depletion so it should produce as long as it doesn't get drowned out. Main thing is to make sure it gets started right. I had to replant a hay field 2 years ago because it didn't get rain like it should have and that was a big loss.
> 
> There's lots more to consider as you go but just keep asking on here as you proceed to next steps. There are guys on here that know far more than I.


Thanks calico190xt, funny you should say get somethings to fall in your lap, my youngest son‘s father in law just asked him today if I was going to start baling hay, said he would find some fields and would fertiliz them if I would cut them on halves, or just buy the hay on the fields I find. So that’s one market, also my oldest got a call from a widow lady that has some beautiful hay fields she want to get bush hogged, he told her about me and she said that would be great! She has about 30 acres total, so that would give me about 60-80 acres to cut close to home and about a 40 minute drive I have another 25 acre field that I would just cut for a fireman friend of my son, they sell it up there so I won’t have to haul it, they just pay to have it baled. So that’s close to 100 acres. I need to keep the money tight on equipment so any recommendations on used balers would be appreciated, what to look for etc. when buying used and just a good recommendation on maybe a certain brand and model that anyone has used that has had good luck with in the past. Should I go small square first and buy an accumulator? Or just buy a round baler ( everyone down here seems to like the smaller 4x4,4x5 size because of transportation. Thanks


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## calico190xt (9 mo ago)

100 acres is a fast start! Here is what has worked for me regarding equipment. I have a few JD super dealers around 30 minutes from me. While I have not used the JD techs on my round baler, I would if I had a big problem. I have used the dealers for emergency parts with hay down. I would look at what dealers you have around you, particluarly since you will be buying used. I like the 467 mega wide with Netwrap. It is older but reliable and lower cost without being junk. I bought mine at $9k but prices have gone up. I saw a very nice 12,000 bale count 467 go for $12,500 this past fall at auction. Netwrap is faster than twine. Plus the bales sell better. 4x5 is about the biggest that hobby farmers can pickup but some of those smaller tractors need a 4x4. This is where your customer dictates what you bale. As a custom baler you will get asked to bale small squares. I used a JD 24T for 7 years and it rarely missed tying bales, however, you can't go fast and you can't double windrow with a 24T. It only cost $2k though. If you know for sure, you will be doing small square baling and a bunch of it, I would go with a New Holland or JD baler with wide pickup. I really like my JD348 but it is higher in price than the older JD balers. I do not use wire tie nor do any customers want it. I do like the Kuhn 110 V-Rake I have. You can set a v-rake to the preferred width of the windrow so that you don't have to zigzag when making round bales. Makes for a good looking round bale. My son has made 4x5 round bales with netwrap in under 3 minutes per bale with the 467 and properly set windrow width. I would not go with a bar rake. Too much time to rake and width can't be set. I see v-rakes selling for $3k-5k. They are simple and not much to break on them. If you can get a discbine, I would do that. I went with a 3 pt disc mower due to lower price and easy transport. I may be changing that this next year. Unless you know you have lots of help an accumulator is what you want for small squares. They are expensive and hard to find used. Plus you have to get a grapple with an accumulator. You could try to get by with kid help this first year until you see what small square demand looks like. I pay my kids very well and I have gotten good help. You can pay a lot of kids $20/hour and still not come close to $20,000+ for an accumulator/grapple setup.

Sounds like you are jumping in even though "You couldn't see it". There will be days when you ask yourself what am I doing out here, but that is true for all small businesses, not just haymaking. Try your best to buy equipment before early spring. Most hay equipment goes up in price in the spring. Good luck and don't cuss me for talking you into becoming a haymaker someday.


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