# Got Organic?



## Vol

AgWeb.

Regards, Mike

http://www.agweb.com/article/got-organic-68-of-millennials-will-pay-a-premium-naa-nate-birt/


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## carcajou

I hope they keep buying oatmeal, love those oat prices.


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## somedevildawg

carcajou said:


> I hope they keep buying oatmeal, love those oat prices.


If you ain't had any of McDonalds oatmeal, it's fantastic....my mother got me to eating it, she wants one every morning....I have to substitute a "egg white delight" in every now and again...


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## somedevildawg

I wonder how many of them 68% of "millennials" (I'm sick of the term) are really paying for their food out of their own pocket.....


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## Vol

somedevildawg said:


> I wonder how many of them 68% of "millennials" (I'm sick of the term) are really paying for their food out of their own pocket.....


I think quite a few. I have went to the Whole Foods market in Knoxville a couple of times with the little woman....I had to see for myself what all the fuss was about. There were lots of city millennials spending the green. The first time I went I just kind of looked things over real good and people watched. The second time I went I bought some cookies. 

My son in Atlanta said his buddies call it Whole Paycheck instead of Whole Foods....as a obvious reference to the high costs of shopping there.

I am going to grow some organic hay just to see what kind of demand and what kind of premium I might get for it.....especially now that Urea is considered organic. I think the way to plant a field is use a lot more seed to keep the weeds in check....and if you have a flush of weeds in smaller areas you can deal with them by spraying them with vinegar and water or neem oil.

Better get used to this organic stuff as it is here to stay...so I might as well make a buck or two off of it. Personally I hope that most growers turn up there noses at organic as that will be that less competition. Better than picking cotton.

Regards, Mike


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## TJH

Vol said:


> I think quite a few. I have went to the Whole Foods market in Knoxville a couple of times with the little woman....I had to see for myself what all the fuss was about. There were lots of city millennials spending the green. The first time I went I just kind of looked things over real good and people watched. The second time I went I bought some cookies.
> 
> My son in Atlanta said his buddies call it Whole Paycheck instead of Whole Foods....as a obvious reference to the high costs of shopping there.
> 
> I am going to grow some organic hay just to see what kind of demand and what kind of premium I might get for it.....especially now that Urea is considered organic. I think the way to plant a field is use a lot more seed to keep the weeds in check....and if you have a flush of weeds in smaller areas you can deal with them by spraying them with vinegar and water or neem oil.
> 
> Better get used to this organic stuff as it is here to stay...so I might as well make a buck or two off of it. Personally I hope that most growers turn up there noses at organic as that will be that less competition. Better than picking cotton.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Don't forget a hand held flame weeder Vol, you can burn some fossil fuel and weed your fields and save the planet from herbicides all at one time.


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## carcajou

Urea is definitely not allowed here for organic crop production.


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## IHCman

doesn't vinegar act like roundup and kill everything? If you spot sprayed an area for weeds I'd think you'd have a dead spot that would either have to be reseeded or would be a place for even more weeds to grow.

I'm surprised urea is allowed in organic.


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## Vol

IHCman said:


> .I'm surprised urea is allowed in organic.


I was too, but I read it last week.

Regards, Mike


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## RuttedField

I am not so sure about the numbers either.

Maybe I will have to eat crow; I got kicked off another agriculture website for touting conventional farming versus organic yesterday.

But this is dairy farm country, and while some have switched over, its a silly move. Dairy cows live far too long to keep under organic ruling without treating with antibiotics, and that leaves an organic farmer a problem; with one of two ways to deal with it; 1) sell the cow and buy replacements all the time. 2) Run two different herds and organic/Conventional dairy sides. (the latter is unrealistic)

But the real loss is on production. In the last 20 years our cows have doubled their milk production per cow, and it is predicted to do so again. With organic you are going to get what we got 20 years ago and no more. So that means organic would have to pay twice per hundred weight what is paid now just to be the same price as conventional, and four times higher 20 years from now. I really doubt people will pay 4 times more just for organic when they realize under organic rules, they cannot even be sure they are getting organic.

American's are fickle people. I could be wrong, but my prediction is that we are peaking on organic production. History repeats itself and to me it seems we just repeated the back-to-the-landers movement of the 1970's. When the media is reporting something is at an all time high, jump ship because its about to plummet.

That is just my cynical take perhaps, but I have seen things come and go, I have never seemed them maintain status quo indefinitely.


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## Vol

RuttedField said:


> American's are fickle people. I could be wrong, but my prediction is that we are peaking on organic production. History repeats itself and to me it seems we just repeated the back-to-the-landers movement of the 1970's. When the media is reporting something is at an all time high, jump ship because its about to plummet.
> 
> That is just my cynical take perhaps, but I have seen things come and go, I have never seemed them maintain status quo indefinitely.


I would not be surprised about the organic peak....it could be now....who knows...other than father time. I could see where the millennials will get tired of "doing without" material things in order to eat "safely" with organic products. Beef was obscene in price at Whole Foods Market.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg

Like anyone else, I've certainly looked at organic but my conclusion was the same as Rutt's....if I take a field out of conventional hay and have to do so for what, three years....I'm going to lose production for three years so I have to absorb that loss....now I have to "market" the organic hay.....and i have to continue to deal with low yields, so I have to make up for that with increased revenue only coming from the price.....and if them damned army worms show up, and they will, I'm not sure what's gonna control those so will probably stand to lose some more every year from that....I just don't think it would "pencil out" for me......and besides that, I already have to deal with a few crazies (nature of the beast), just imagine organic crazies, they would have to take it to a whole new level and I believe I have passed the tolerance age for that amount of craziness.....my .02 on the organic gig


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## Jay in WA

Can someone provide a link to urea being allowed in organic production because that's not what I have been able to find.

I am transitioning part of my farm to organic. The market is growing and not going away. Strictly a business decision on my part. The growers that have figured out how to grow good organic crops are doing very well.


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## Vol

Jay in WA said:


> Can someone provide a link to urea being allowed in organic production because that's not what I have been able to find.
> 
> I am transitioning part of my farm to organic. The market is growing and not going away. Strictly a business decision on my part. The growers that have figured out how to grow good organic crops are doing very well.


I looked for the info that I read last week and I have not been able to source it yet. I read a lot so I have covered a world of material since that time. I will keep looking as that is what convinced me to try organic hay since I do not have a good manure source. You feel about organic exactly the way I do....strictly business.

Regards, Mike


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## Jay in WA

OMRI site lists urea as prohibited.

I have both dairy compost and chicken manure available. Without those I don't see any way to make organic viable. Organic hay is not where the money is anyhow. Vegetables and grains are my plan.


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## carcajou

Vol said:


> I looked for the info that I read last week and I have not been able to source it yet. I read a lot so I have covered a world of material since that time. I will keep looking as that is what convinced me to try organic hay since I do not have a good manure source. You feel about organic exactly the way I do....strictly business.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Maybe it was in one of those fake news sites i have been hearing about.  Hope so anyway.


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## Vol

carcajou said:


> Maybe it was in one of those fake news sites i have been hearing about.  Hope so anyway.


Well I hope not.....I think it would be great if Urea is allowed for organic production. After all, it is naturally occurring.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Jay in WA said:


> Organic hay is not where the money is anyhow.


What do you base that on? Your locale?

Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose

Vol said:


> What do you base that on? Your locale?
> 
> Regards, Mike


I know HERE it would be easy to find "organic" hay in large supply if someone wanted it. Corn belt ends 30 miles or so north of here. Do not have to go too far north and find acres and acres of hay which haven't seen fertilizer in many years. That really helps keep hay of all sorts low here, I think. The prices some of you get for hay boggle my mind. I really never should have ever started growing my own.

But where is the fun in that?


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## Vol

deadmoose said:


> I know HERE it would be easy to find "organic" hay in large supply if someone wanted it. Corn belt ends 30 miles or so north of here. Do not have to go too far north and find acres and acres of hay which haven't seen fertilizer in many years. That really helps keep hay of all sorts low here, I think. The prices some of you get for hay boggle my mind. I really never should have ever started growing my own.
> 
> But where is the fun in that?


In this part of the world, if you let fields go unattended very long you won't have anything but Broomsedge, Red cedar, blackberries, and thistle.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Vol said:


> I looked for the info that I read last week and I have not been able to source it yet.


I cannot find it.....maybe I dreamed that was the case. I will keep searching. Sorry to put up the fake news carcajou mentioned. And I dang sure won't be growing organic as I do not have a nearby manure source that I can reasonably purchase.

Regards, Mike


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## Jay in WA

Organic alfalfa is too easy to be very profitable. Look how little spray and fertilizer the conventional alfalfa receives. The more difficult the crop is to grow the more potential premium for organic. If I can find a home for organic alfalfa here it might be 50% higher. Grain corn is easily double the price, processing peas and sweet corn are triple the price of conventional.


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## carcajou

Vol said:


> I cannot find it.....maybe I dreamed that was the case. I will keep searching. Sorry to put up the fake news carcajou mentioned. And I dang sure won't be growing organic as I do not have a nearby manure source that I can reasonably purchase.
> 
> Regards, Mike


All in fun Mike!


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## Vol

Jay in WA said:


> Organic alfalfa is too easy to be very profitable. Look how little spray and fertilizer the conventional alfalfa receives.


Do you not have Potato Leafhoppers or Armyworms in Washington?

Regards, Mike


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## Jay in WA

No potato leaf hoppers on alfalfa. The potato growers must have killed them. Army worms go to the grass fields. Rare to have them in alfalfa, don't recall ever spraying for them. Their are a lot of organic insecticides on the market now and more every year.

I have been on a composted dairy manure program for the alfalfa for 10 years. Works better than commercial fertilizer for me.


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## MtnHerd

Vol said:


> I would not be surprised about the organic peak....it could be now....who knows...other than father time. I could see where the millennials will get tired of "doing without" material things in order to eat "safely" with organic products. Beef was obscene in price at Whole Foods Market.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I have already seen a decline in organic produce prices paid to the grower in my area. I had looked at growing some fields organic due to supposed demand and higher price. My uncle had done VERY well off of organic lettuce for years. Right as I looked at transitioning last year, my friend in the cooperative extension warned me not to. I'm glad, as a lot of organic crops had a hard time being sold last year in our area, and when they did their price point was much lower. In fact, a lot rotted due to the amount of time to get them sold. Our area had a saturation of organic and the demand just wasn't there, whereas the conventional I grew I sold all of it at a good price and they were wanting more. Also, at least in produce, there is a lot more labor and uncertaintity in organic, since some of the pests and diseases that can get started are hard to keep under control organically. Working a full time job, raising cattle, goats, and hay I just don't have time to walk and look at every plant every day to catch these issues so that they can be treated in time organically. I would have loved for it to have worked out and recieved the prices my uncle has been getting for years, but the market has shifted in this area. My uncle has actually gotten out of organic, also, and he was the first organic certified farmer in he county (he was also the agricultural extension agent, but has since retired to farm full time).

As far as organic hay in my area, you might as well say the demand is zero. There are people that want it, but they do not want ANY weeds in it and want to pay the same price as conventional, so to me there is no demand.


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## Fossil02818

We have grown a crop of organic hay for 11 years now. We produced it to feed to our certified organic livestock. That is where we get the premium prices. Meat not hay. Most other producers of organic hay do so for the same reason. I have been involved with the organic dairy industry in the Northeast for many years and can confirm that certified organic hay purchased off farm is too expensive for farmers to consistently feed their livestock. Organic grain is a better value, but, still an expensive option. Also, many organic dairy farms in northern New England only get one cutting per season so there is little surplus if any.

We have sold our surplus hay for a premium price to small scale goat and sheep operations. However, they were more interested in our hay because it was 18% protein with high lab analysis test scores. For their milking goats higher milk yields justified higher hay costs.


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## Fossil02818

My point with the earlier posting is that if you haven't already identified the specific market that is willing to pay you a premium for your organic hay, you should not expect to just post an ad on craigslist and have folks rolling up with their trailers and stacks of hundred dollar bills. Organic is still farming. You need to know what you are doing.


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## Vol

Fossil02818 said:


> My point with the earlier posting is that if you haven't already identified the specific market that is willing to pay you a premium for your organic hay, you should not expect to just post an ad on craigslist and have folks rolling up with their trailers and stacks of hundred dollar bills. Organic is still farming. You need to know what you are doing.


If you are referring to my post on growing organic hay, yes I do have a market identified in my region(and it ain't farmers!). I have never once advertised on craigslist....nor have I advertised anywhere in several years. I do have my products widespread in this region in commercial feed stores and have a pretty decent clientele. I have in mind of trying a different approach to organic hay in hopes of keeping weed pressure and costs in line so that my margins will make it worth my efforts. I do not know if it will work out or not, but if it doesn't I will just pour the commercial fertilizer to it and bring out the herbicides and move on. Unlike veggies, the hay will keep if it starts out slow....giving me time to re-evaluate. 

Regards, Mike


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## Jay in WA

Whats your plan for the transition period? Has to be farmed organic and sold commercial. I am using alfalfa. Fall plant and spray the weeds out. First year is taken care of. 2nd yr had some weeds but not enough to hurt me. 3rd yr will be organic grain corn with harvest after the transition date. Fertility is from composted dairy manure for the alfalfa. Chicken manure for the corn


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## Vol

Jay in WA said:


> Whats your plan for the transition period? Has to be farmed organic and sold commercial.


That is what my plan is through the transition period....growing organically and selling commercially....Alfalfa/Orchard grass.

Regards, Mike


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## carcajou

I have found if the plant density is high enough, weeds after the 1st cutting of alfalfa don't seem to cause much issues.


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## hillside hay

[quote name="Vol" post="639546" timestamp="1488075524"]

I cannot find it.....maybe I dreamed that was the case. I will keep searching. Sorry to put up the fake news carcajou mentioned. And I dang sure won't be growing organic as I do not have a nearby manure source that I can reasonably purchase.

Regards, Mike[/quote

It may have originated from me. I read it on the NOFA site. Or thought I did. I tend to skim. My apologies. It is not allowed. When I was reading their certification program I was under the impression it could be used during the transition period if it could be proven that it was the only viable source in the area.


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## hillside hay

I should probably reacquaint myself with the information.


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## Vol

hillside hay said:


> I should probably reacquaint myself with the information.


Nope, not going to blame it on you hillside....I feel certain I read it with my own eyes from a confirmed source, but now it escapes me. So I must make my own confession of despair....please disregard what I thought was a fact which turns out not to be. And to my thoughts of growing organic hay with Urea....."to the best laid plans of mice and men".

Regards, Mike


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## hillside hay

I went back to the NOFA website and it says urea obtained from blood meal is acceptable. But why bother too expensive. I suppose one could separate the manure components and concentrate it that way. Still, no way to avoid eventually running a deficit without importing NPK via plowdown or fixing crops .


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## Vol

hillside hay said:


> I went back to the NOFA website and it says urea obtained from blood meal is acceptable. But why bother too expensive. I suppose one could separate the manure components and concentrate it that way. Still, no way to avoid eventually running a deficit without importing NPK via plowdown or fixing crops .


Or have all your neighbors run through your fields while taking a whizz.

Regards, Mike

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/how-to-create-urea-fertilizer


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## somedevildawg

Now that's funny right there.....I can see it now "kids, I'm gonna need you to all piss in a bucket tonight and in the morning before school, drink a lot of water tonight......you too honey  "


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## SCtrailrider

I think there are a few organic farmers around here, they don't fertilize, don't spray for weed control, they bale anything that is in the field... isn't that so called organic beings that nothing is applied


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## RuttedField

I live in the organic farm capital of the world and I can say I am pretty sure it has peaked. We have a saying here, "As Maine goes, so goes the nation."

Back in 2011 I was talking some farm accounting classes and people were coming into the class thinking they were just going to raise some veggies and sell them at the local farmers market. Well Maine has the most start up farms in the nation, and the youngest age of farmers, and what is happening is, the organic market is saturated. The farmers markets...and every town now has one, are no longer accepting new farmers because the people who are buying organic, are, and the market is just saturated. Period. The woman running the class was telling these new farmers, "hold on, it might be harder then you think..." and this was in 2011. It is worse now than then!

There has been a lot or research done on grass raised meats, and local marketing and all that, and while admittedly SOME will buy off a farm, not many are willing to go that route. As much as they might complain, the fear of tainted meat is too much, and they like that USDA Inspected label stamped onto the package. people will buy veggies...but not meat!

And while downtown Bangor is exploding with chic start up restaurants, as farmers we all know what they do. They buy 10% of their food of local farmers and make the claim that 100% of it is locally raised. If they don't do that, they cannot complete with the ones around them that do. And while a farm might make inroads to a new chic trendy restaurant, they are in and out of Bangor as often as I am. A few restaurants are well established, but so are their supply chains.

People can beat me up on this all they want, but I am seeing it. The ones that can afford to buy expensive food are, and the ones who cannot, simply aren't.

So what about these 20 somethings?

What they are spending is disposable income, and as D.I.N.K.'s (Double Income; No Kids), they have that. But as they transition into mortgages, car payments, gas to truck their 2.5 children around; that will fall by the wayside and by lack of income, will have to transition to conventional. And then as the world around us gets larger...food will be more scarce. As the USA exports more food to pay its deep foreign debts, (Russia is one of the top ten countries we owe money too), food prices will go skyward.

We are already in crisis. Our great military days were back in the Reagan era, but when Clinton took over he gutted the military. Did you know our shipyards are only averaging 2 new ships per year, but because our ships are old, we are scraping 8 ships a year? That means we have some tough choices, to be the king of the high seas, mountains and air, we better spend some money to stay King of the hill with military spending. That might take foreign money to do, and even more food will be transferred to them as repayment. And even Castro before he died said American's were stupid to take good farmland that could grow food and dump it in their cars to drive with (ethanol). Sadly he is right. I have no issue with ethanol, I just think using corn to make it is downright stupid. lets use cattails that produce 600 gallons to the acre instead of 400.

If anyone wants a prediction I will even go out on a limb and say very soon food prices will be really high, about a days pay for a single loaf of bread. Sounds far fetched until you realize I am just quoting the bible...

Rev 6:6

And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."

But as I say this, one thing needs to be noted. An organic farmer can switch back to conventional farming instantaneously so its not a dire decision to make, but I think they should have an organic exit plan.


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## mlappin

Not a huge market here for organic hay, my trucks all his in. Now for the funny part, he pays less for it than I get for mine in the winter, of course he's buying in June, I sell when snow is on the ground. He'd love for me to grow his hay but he's gonna have to pay more, of course he won't have that $50+ a ton in shipping costs if i grow it for him. I've looked into it several times, just not worth the extra headache and paperwork.

Might wanna check, but last I heard Aldi's was actually better for you than Whole Foods and a damn sight cheaper.


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## BWfarms

SCtrailrider said:


> I think there are a few organic farmers around here, they don't fertilize, don't spray for weed control, they bale anything that is in the field... isn't that so called organic beings that nothing is applied


There's a place here that does that and caters their meat to the hippie market. The hippies eat it up.

I'm not going to ruin my land.


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## endrow

Went to an organic dairy farm 60 cows to buy a pickup craigslist. It was a beautiful operation grazing based . Feed was a problem . She said 2 years in a row corn crop lost to weeds ,but it was organic so they feed it even though it was toxic and cows looked sick, thin . Only organic hay they could buy was rye hay had been made in full head. Only organic feed for replacement heifers was organic corn stalks . It is tough to buy at the time certified organic forage . there pastures were all weeds and it looked like these people were working very hard to make certified organic work. She said many cows were lost due to no treatments when they get sick the end . I had to wonderbut like they say organic is here to stay


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## mlappin

My buddy does the same, organic feed can be had, usually its the trucking thats the killer.

He has a 15foot bush hog that gets run most of the summer clipping pastures, seems futile at best as kinda hard to get that bush hog places a 25 gallon sprayer in the back of a Mule, Gator or Polaris could easily reach.


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