# Round Bales...



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Taking back more ground on the farm and some of it is a little steeper than I really want to put a tractor with square baler and kicker wagon train. So I'm thinking maybe this is round bale territory. All hay is for sale - we have no livestock to which to feed it.

Question is - you folks making round bales (grass hay), how do you pencil it out? What do you grow, ie OG, fescue, etc. bale size that sells well? Any round bale horse customers?

Pound for pound it's hard to beat the going price of squares vs rounds.

School me on round bales, potential profitability, targeted market, best grass to go into round bales, etc.

Thanks!
Bill


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Turn the baler so you don't kick the bales downhill.... unless you have an impressive stop at the bottom.

Dollar for dollar most folks want rounds at the going discount price no matter the type of grass. Many more buy rounds because it 'saves' money. 4x5 is the magic number in our parts. 4x4 are common and tend to be frowned upon while the 4x5.5 are too big for the average buyer.

Roll them and then unroll them on flat ground. Rebale with the square baler. The problem here is I doubt you will come out ahead unless it's a lot of ground. If you hire the baling done, even then I'm not sure you come out ahead. Save your money on a baler, fence it in and run cows.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> School me on round bales, potential profitability, targeted market, best grass to go into round bales, etc.


Don't make round bales, is the short answer .

1st cutting rounds sell for around $80 -$90 ton, while 2nd-4th cuttings $100-$110 a ton. Where as small squares 1st - $200 a ton, 2nd and beyond $240+ a ton (selling mine for $280 a ton right now). Naturally, this is in MY area and YMMV.

For the math, this year I only sold/ or will sell about 100 tons of hay of 2nd - 4th cuttings at a $150 (or better) ton price difference, that's $15,000 and 25 tons of 1st cutting sold as SS bales, that's another $2,500 (using just $100 advantage over RB). Didn't take me long to figure out that I could pay for the Kuhn system/new hay shed.

BTW, sold about 100 tons of RB this year, because hay shed wasn't done in time to make SS bales.  I'm looking at selling about 225 -250 tons of hay next year as SS bales (I do about 350 tons total, got to feed the bovine lawn mowers in the winter ). Pencils out to about $30K+ price advantage as SS bales.

I consider myself a small fry.

HTH

Larry


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## MrLuggs (Dec 14, 2015)

r82230 said:


> Don't make round bales, is the short answer .
> 
> 1st cutting rounds sell for around $80 -$90 ton, while 2nd-4th cuttings $100-$110 a ton. Where as small squares 1st - $200 a ton, 2nd and beyond $240+ a ton (selling mine for $280 a ton right now). Naturally, this is in MY area and YMMV.
> 
> ...


Agree with Larry on all fronts - if you can make small squares work and you've got a market for more, definitely keep doing those if you want your operation to be profitable. One of the advantages of round bales is reduced labor, as you're not doing anything by hand.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

If you decide to do round bales I guess there's a couple of things.

If it's not a lot of acres in rounds, I'd be looking for a decent used baler. If you're a good mechanic/welder etc......you can get by starting at about $5000 for a twine tie baler.

Belt condition is paramount. Spensive to replace belts.

Look at the tires, lots of folks forget about tires when buying stuff. The modern balers take weird non-standard tires, and they're HIGH DOLLAR.

Try to get the seller to run the baler for you. Doesn't have to be baling, but at least turning. Use an IR thermometer to check for hot bearings. While not absolutely dispositive, it's a good indicator. A bad bearing will burn the baler, tractor, and hay meadow to the ground. I don't know about square baling, but round baling generates a lot of flammable fines which ignite at the smallest spark.

Match your horsepower requirements with your tractor. Generally a baler set up with a 540 PTO is a sign it will run with less than mega horses.

Twine tie vs. net wrap. Lot of people like net wrap. Looks prettier, and hauls without a lotta crap flying off the bale as you're motoring down the blacktop.

Find a baler that will make up to 4x6 bales. You don't have to make them that big, but it gives you options. When I have to buy hay by the semi load, I have to have 4x5's in order to fit on my trailer, and be within legal height limits. I have a float, not a lowboy or drop deck. Larger diameter bales force me to space the bales out on the deck so's I can stay legal. It cuts down on what I can haul. Guys with drop decks can haul larger diameter bales with ease.

Where you buy a baler matters somewhat. A private owner sale is generally better (you can see how the dood keeps his equipment). Auction is ok if you're good at spotting glaring problems. Equipment dealers will often buy at auction, steam clean the equipment, and put it on the line. It's always a risk buying used stuff, no matter where you buy it. Just assume something is wrong with it, and I guess live with it.

Around here, I don't see a lot of small squares runnin' down the highway. It's mostly all round bales. The horse folks here feed rounds. They finally figured out it's easier, and doesn't require covered storage. I suppose there's a bit more waste, but being able to throw out a bale with the tractor beats moving all that stuff by hand. I'm probably not really qualified to comment on this I guess, cause I feed cows.

Anyways, hope it helps.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Maybe I'm sorta qualified to talk horsies 

Guess this could maybe qualify as half a horse :lol:








We got two of these  I heard somewhere that they can keep coyotes away from yer cows 

I can get real lame brained, and run off and do stuff without really thinking.

One of the guys where K'kins works was wanting to get rid of his 2 donkeys. Free (shoulda known better  )

Yeah, they do sorta keep the coyotes away...&#8230;.BUT THEY'LL CHASE A CALF DOWN TOO :angry: And, although we didn't actually see it, we're pretty sure Sarge (the bigger one) killed a calf this summer. I thought I'd broken him of chasing calves. Caught him at it while putting out bales, and chased him all over the dry lot with the tractor. Had him cornered, and dam near ran him thru with the bale spike. K'kins hollered to stop. Boy was I HOT!!!!! :angry: Nobody else could have stopped me. We got neighbors across the highway, and they probably think I'm gonna kill something when I get to yelling at the donkeys, or sometimes the dog, or sometimes at the steel when something goes wrong with the welding.

To be fair, most of the momma cows will keep the donkeys away from their calves, and do it pretty aggressively. But a guy doesn't wanna depend on that.

Thought we had a taker for the pair, but the lady crapped out. Next option is taking them to the sale barn. At this point, we keep them separated from the cows, and they do fine.

I'm rambling on, and forgot this thread is about round bales...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Donkeys eat 'em just fine. Prairie Hay, Johnson Grass, and Haygrazer (yeah, ain't lyin' )


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Bill, for operators our size (you and me) there is no money in rounds. Period. I only do a few and that is for my convenience. May do none next year. Like when my square baler thrower went on the fritz at 5:30 and I wanted to finish the field, or another day when I ran out of wagons. I picked up a used JD457 silage baler several years ago with 5K through it. Figured I could use it til I was too senile to do so. So far, the senility is running faster than the depreciation on the machine!! Any way, if you decide adding a round baler is for you, I would go with the mega pickup and net without question and I think a JD457 or 458 with 3-7K rolls would be a good purchase for you. I am getting 65$ a roll for mixed grass at the barn. Good hay, well made. 4 x5. Doubt you can get that in your neighborhood but maybe you can. Most of the horse folks here have been bit by bad rolls and there are plenty of them.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

MrLuggs said:


> Agree with Larry on all fronts - if you can make small squares work and you've got a market for more, definitely keep doing those if you want your operation to be profitable. *One of the advantages of round bales is reduced labor, as you're not doing anything by hand.*


Bingo. Round bales great for 1 man opps.
I work 95% alone and have minimal inside storage, so its really my only choice. 
4x5 is the size to go with. I heavily suggest net wrap as opposed to twine if they have to sit outside. 
I do have 2 horse customers, but since the bales are large, many horse people are afraid of them. One once told me "you bale up a dead rabbit and the round bale gets botulism (or some other disease) and my horses get sick, whos going to be responsible? I can tell whats in a small square because I can pick it up and smell/feel/touch the hay before I feed it". 
Had a "horse" customer once who was so cheap. She also said "I dont really care if the bales are all that good, its just for the horse, and goats to nibble on during the day". After about 2 years, she started buying from someone else. I asked her why and she said she didnt think the hay was very good. 
Have a really nice British gal for a customer for 3 years. She pays me $100/bale delivered to her feeder. Uses a hay hut and it works great! She buys 18 bales per year and pays me a little extra to store them, too. Wish I could get about 20 more customers like that....
hay hut is the best thing for round bales since net wrap!!
Right, wrong or indifferent, that's an example of what some customers say trying to sell 4x5's to horse people. 
best application for rounds is herds of cattle. 
I have a niche market and sell 90% to the mushroom growers.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Here at least if it's too steep to square bale, it's way too steep to round bale. Backing up and jackknifing to try to reduce the number of bales rolling away on steep ground is a huge pain.

You don't have to fill your kicker wagons as full. Nice thing square baling is if you pick the right gear or have power shift there is no need to push the clutch in on the hill and risk a run away or a rough réengagement.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I would buy a good used round roller.....twine tie, can buy them in the cheap. Probably could get into a very good one for 8k or less......
For me, I make 54" rolls for horse hay and 60" rolls for cows.....
I can't pencil it out very good, but there is no way I would be without one.....
What are ya gonna do if it's gonna rain tomorrow starting at three, so you have a very narrow window in which to get it up, without a doubt that's the number one reason for owning a round roller even if you are just resale.....it's very fast, and the bales don't have to come in that day.....
What are ya gonna do when it's rained on your crop for 5-6 days in a row....gotta get it up and out unless ur gonna strike a match, nothing beats a roller in that situation, it's cow market hay.
What about ifn ur SS baler goes down and you have only today to get it up......roller to the rescue. 
For me and my operation, I couldn't imagine not having the ability to roll.....while I may not like the ROI I get, at some point I have to minimize my losses and a roller will do that.....
But I wouldn't break the bank buying one.....it'll make you mad everytime you make a payment


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Way more money in squares, and if you dont like the hill for squares, watch out for rounds lol. Keep doing what you are doing. In my area rounds are $50-60 a ton.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> I would buy a good used round roller.....twine tie, can buy them in the cheap. Probably could get into a very good one for 8k or less......
> For me, I make 54" rolls for horse hay and 60" rolls for cows.....
> I can't pencil it out very good, but there is no way I would be without one.....
> What are ya gonna do if it's gonna rain tomorrow starting at three, so you have a very narrow window in which to get it up, without a doubt that's the number one reason for owning a round roller even if you are just resale.....it's very fast, and the bales don't have to come in that day.....
> ...


Exactly. Sometimes a little pie beats the heck out of no pie.

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

slowzuki said:


> Here at least if it's too steep to square bale, it's way too steep to round bale. Backing up and jackknifing to try to reduce the number of bales rolling away on steep ground is a huge pain.


I'm so used backing up at an angle to find a place to drop a bale on hilly ground that, a few years ago, I was custom baling on some flat ground and I couldn't help myself--I backed up and angled every bale even though I "knew" I didn't have to!

Ralph


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

somedevildawg said:


> I would buy a good used round roller.....twine tie, can buy them in the cheap. Probably could get into a very good one for 8k or less......
> For me, I make 54" rolls for horse hay and 60" rolls for cows.....
> I can't pencil it out very good, but there is no way I would be without one.....
> What are ya gonna do if it's gonna rain tomorrow starting at three, so you have a very narrow window in which to get it up, without a doubt that's the number one reason for owning a round roller even if you are just resale.....it's very fast, and the bales don't have to come in that day.....
> ...


Lotta truth in this.

Have you looked at those machines that convert rolls to squares? Pretty slick. You set a round on it, and it unrolls it and feeds it via a conveyor belt into your square baler. If you had a place to store your rounds inside, you could then convert to as many squares as you need when you need them. Could be the best of both worlds but I dont know how much they cost. As with most things these days its probably high.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

rjmoses said:


> I'm so used backing up at an angle to find a place to drop a bale on hilly ground that, a few years ago, I was custom baling on some flat ground and I couldn't help myself--I backed up and angled every bale even though I "knew" I didn't have to!
> 
> Ralph


After busting fences twice I have a complex about this too.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

There's nothing like dumping 8 bales, and watching them go into the fence, and push it about half way over :lol:

I keep rounds in a fenced lot to keep the cows away from them.

Sometimes, the first row I dump on the North side is a tad close to the fence, and off it goes like a bulldozer  There's a spot that tilts the trailer axles just enuff downhill that they'll roll about 20 feet. There is no cure for moronity (is that a word?) 

Then the stupid things are jammed into the barbed wire, and hang up when you move them later to feed 'em  









K'kins as she sashays in the door: "I see you broke the fence again" &#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...then she just glides on thru the kitchen without another word.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> There's nothing like dumping 8 bales, and watching them go into the fence, and push it about half way over :lol:
> 
> I keep rounds in a fenced lot to keep the cows away from them.
> 
> ...


K'kins short for cucks?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm selling good first cutting for $50/bale, other stuff that was made a little later is $45/bale, last of the first cutting is $40/bale, most if not all is spoken for and they come and get it.

1st cutting rounds average around 800lbs.

Later cuttings start at $75/bale and thats all spoken for, later cuttings run right around 1000lbs/bale.

Roughly 60% of the first is going to horses. All of my later cuttings is being fed to horses. Won't even need to goto the hay auction this winter.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

StxPecans said:


> K'kins short for cucks?


K'kins = Kelly + kins (Kellykins is my pet name for her)

Never heard the word "cucks". Looked it up, and was sorta surprised by the definition  I must be getting old :lol:


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Oh i was way off...


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> I do have 2 horse customers, but since the bales are large, many horse people are afraid of them. One once told me "you bale up a dead rabbit and the round bale gets botulism (or some other disease) and my horses get sick, whos going to be responsible? I can tell whats in a small square because I can pick it up and smell/feel/touch the hay before I feed it".


Never ran into that yet, least nobody has ever said anything about a dead critter in a bale.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> Never ran into that yet, least nobody has ever said anything about a dead critter in a bale.


Had a friend feeding my hay in rd hay feeder and he found dead **** in a bale.I would be there is alot of dead critters in hay bales.If I see it I throw it out of the windrow before baling.Tub grinder prly hides alot of evidence of dead critters here,lol.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Usually the folks that feed balage to unvaccinated horses that have botulism issues. Don’t hear of issues in dry hay.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Never ran into that yet, least nobody has ever said anything about a dead critter in a bale.


neither have I.
I sort of thought the guy was being a little dramatic. However, it's no secret we run over snakes, small (and sometimes large) mammals, turtles and the like.
It did make me wonder that happens to livestock that eats hay affected by a rotting carcass that gets bales up though.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> neither have I.
> I sort of thought the guy was being a little dramatic. However, it's no secret we run over snakes, small (and sometimes large) mammals, turtles and the like.
> It did make me wonder that happens to livestock that eats hay affected by a rotting carcass that gets bales up though.


Nope, every serious horse person here in my neck of the woods that feeds round bales vaccinates for botulism, Trust me we have some serious competition horse people here. The good vets know which one to do, there are several different strains of botulism. .


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayman1 said:


> Nope, every serious horse person here in my neck of the woods that feeds round bales vaccinates for botulism, Trust me we have some serious competition horse people here. The good vets know which one to do, there are several different strains of botulism. .


Me too. This guy owned a boarding operation and I think he was trying to imply he didnt know the vaccination status of all the horses he boards (although come to think of it, it probably would be good to know vaccination status for the good of the other horses!)


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> Nope, every serious horse person here in my neck of the woods that feeds round bales vaccinates for botulism, Trust me we have some serious competition horse people here. The good vets know which one to do, there are several different strains of botulism. .


All of the serious horse folks here feed small squares.....except the serious work horse customers.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Mar 14, 2015)

The wife has 2 horses that run with our cattle all year long. In the winter they eat the same round bales that the cows get (baleage included). Never vaccinated them for botulism as far as I'm aware. I roll out 95% of my hay so the horses will find the "best" spot and just park their and eat while the cows get the rest. Lol


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

I dont know of any serious horse people that feed round bales. People who keep them for pasture ornaments do that maybe. I dont mind feeding ours a high quality bale, but unless you have a lot of horses that eat up a bale fast any round will be low quality pretty soon after they tear into it due to rain/sun etc. Dust/mold are the bigger problems, Ive never heard of a horse getting botulism from hay around here in central KY, and there are a lot of horse around here.

I agree that lots of critters get rolled up in round bales. Never heard of it ever causing a problem. Cows definetely know how to throw hay on the ground they dont like.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I know of some very seriously cheap horse owners who BUY round bales...

Thanks everyone for the comments - very helpful info.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

KYhaymaker said:


> I dont know of any serious horse people that feed round bales. People who keep them for pasture ornaments do that maybe. I dont mind feeding ours a high quality bale, but unless you have a lot of horses that eat up a bale fast any round will be low quality pretty soon after they tear into it due to rain/sun etc. Dust/mold are the bigger problems, Ive never heard of a horse getting botulism from hay around here in central KY, and there are a lot of horse around here.
> 
> I agree that lots of critters get rolled up in round bales. Never heard of it ever causing a problem. Cows definetely know how to throw hay on the ground they dont like.


I feed up to 20 horses OG round bales over the winter. Don't even square bale for myself anymore--too much work baling and feeding. I will buy 250 squares for feeding when I have to have a horse in a stall overnight or for traveling. Other than that, rounds only.

Ralph


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

I don't fully understand horse folks 

We see them all the time dragging empty trailers. It's like the trailer is some sort of badge of honor (or maybe they don't know how to unhook it  )

And if they do have horses in the trailer.....they don't seem to mind leaving them cooped up in there while they go to the local restaurant (one with a parking lot big enuff for all the trailers) and sit for an hour. The horses do seem to be pretty calm about it though 

I won't even stop to eat when I have cattle. They're calmer when your moving. Once you start rolling, they seem to be mesmerized by the passing sights. I breath a huge sigh of relief when I hand them off to the sale barn.

Nuther thing I wonder about  Why do these folks wear their spurs into the restaurant  Seems a little strange. Also leads me to believe that their pickup trucks must have a great big ol' hole in the mat/carpet underneath the gas pedal 

K'kins always wonders how they can sit down with those huge buckles digging into their stomachs  Me, on the other hand...&#8230;&#8230;..I always wonder how they keep their food out of those obligatory droopy mustaches 

It's a different world I guess. Might just be an Oklahoma thing


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

KYhaymaker said:


> I dont know of any serious horse people that feed round bales. People who keep them for pasture ornaments do that maybe. I dont mind feeding ours a high quality bale, but unless you have a lot of horses that eat up a bale fast any round will be low quality pretty soon after they tear into it due to rain/sun etc. Dust/mold are the bigger problems, Ive never heard of a horse getting botulism from hay around here in central KY, and there are a lot of horse around here.
> I agree that lots of critters get rolled up in round bales. Never heard of it ever causing a problem. Cows definetely know how to throw hay on the ground they dont like.


we use hay huts or covered feeders to keep rain, sun, snow onff the round bales. They stay pretty nice for weeks in them. Maybe covered feeders is just an "out east" thing.
I see some horse people just throw them on the ground and they're junked-up in a few days. Probably same ones who complain about hay color when you pull in the driveway with bales.
We have some of the pickiest horse people and stables in the country. My area has some big race horse names from here: Smarty Jones, Union Rags and Barbaro and many other high end race horse stables in the area I have ZERO chance selling to LOL. 
My better rounds mostly sell to yard ornament owner or small herd owners


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Mar 14, 2015)

Put up good quality hay and dust/mold should be a non-issue. If you don't have enough animals to eat a round bale in a timely fashion then a simple covered feeder will keep the hay nice out in the weather almost indefinitely.

After listening to the way some guys talk about horses and round bales it makes me wonder how the horses I've got have survived so long and died of old age not some mysterious "round bale toxicity".

Next thing is guys are going to tell me that horses need to be kept in a barn because they can't survive out in the weather.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Almost invariably a horse will not eat anything bad for themselves if they have a choice. It's when they are neglected and have only one source of food is when they can get into trouble health wise. They are pretty good at picking through a round bale and avoiding a bad spot or two.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> All of the serious horse folks here feed small squares.....except the serious work horse customers.


Rounds are only used outside for keeping horses happy. Gets to be a lot of squares to feed in fields if you have 30 horses. Sqs in the barn.

Mike, from what I understand the hay is not "bad", it just has the juice which is what carries the bacteria. I bale small animal carcasses regularly in small squares but the theory is that they get too aired out to cause a problem. It is in the middle of a tight round that you get the anaerobic condition that can produce the spores. However, I have never heard it associated with dust and mold, just animal carcasses.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayman1 said:


> Rounds are only used outside for keeping horses happy. Gets to be a lot of squares to feed in fields if you have 30 horses. Sqs in the barn.


Exactly. Then add a hay hut to the outdoor RBs and you save a LOT of money on small squares. A Hay Hut costs about the same as 125 small squares around here. ($800)

Also, you can board more horses so you make more money and your pastures don't get gnawed down to the dirt.

It allows the typical boarding operation to board more or the hobby owner to own another horse.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

We bale both SS and RB all for sale mostly to the horse trade. My advice is sell your kicker and buy an accumulator. The accumulator takes the same amount of labor as round bales. For $15000 you can get a new accumulator and grapple that pays for itself in one year. Hills are no different for an accumulator verses a round baler and the SS bales will net 2 to 3 times more money then RB. We sell 20k SS and 200 RBs most years if you can sell SS off the racks easy money.


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

I think the profitability of round bales depends on your location. Many of my "horse ladies" will not feed square bales, and want the convenience of a round bale. They also pay a premium in the round bale market for them, with some of my bermuda round bales selling for $60. Yes, the square bales would make me more money; but, I would have to bale slower, deal with storage issues caused by squares, automate the field clean up of square bales/handling or hire workers to deal with moving them out of the field. I can run round bales all day long as a 1 man show from the seat of my tractor without breaking a sweat. It takes quite a few square bales to payoff a square baler, grapple, accumulator/bale barron/bale bandit.

So... it depends on your market area, your grass, your time, your equipment, and availability of cheap labor that's actually willing to work.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Seeing how this thread has desolved into SS vs rounds, I'll give you my "take".....
Like I said before in a post, all of the serious horse folk around here prefer to feed up SS. Which is a great idea to me.....I get $250pt for squares and $120 for cow rounds. But, only my best goes into SS.....most customers seem to know that (prolly cause I told them  ) but the joke is on us.....the horse customer isn't stupid, well in some cases.......but they know how and when to feed their horses and they know the amount of nutrition that the horse should have. They feed up exactly what's needed and no more, thus saving them money in the long haul.....so while they may pay a higher price per ton, they come out cheaper in the long run, although it's much more of a PITA, to them it's just another day.
As always, it depends on ones perspective......


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I can't understand why a round bale can't be 98% as good as a small square. I mean it's the same damn hay, but it's baled into a different shape. 
I understand the part about small animals getting baled into a bigger bale, but once the hay is in the barn and stored properly a round bale is worth 1/2 the price per ton as a small square? 
Just don't seem right.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> I can't understand why a round bale can't be 98% as good as a small square.


Harder for the horse folks to control the eating machine.

Horse's by nature like to 'graze' something like 14 hours a day in nature. When they stick their heads into a RB for 14 hours, a couple of things can happen, they eat too much and/or only pick out the best stuff wasting more. As dawg mentions, with ss they can control the amount of product in front of the critter and are willing to pay more for that convenience, at least in my area.

Some of the sharper ones, only let the horses out with the RB for a while in the morning and night. Which allows them to utilize the cheaper RB.

Bottom line, the customer is always right, we get to choose the packaging and pricing however (with current market conditions as a contributing factor naturally).

Larry


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Oh, I fully understand that aspect of not being able to "portion" the hay as well. 
What I question is when a customer says "round bales are lower quality than square bales". That is a misinformed person. 
I would maintain if I bale the field 1/2 in SS and 1/2 in RB, the hay in the hay quality in the bale is almost identical. With RB I may also be able to get done faster and get the hay stored sooner.

I think RB's give the horse boarding operation the opportunity to make more money in that they can board more horses per acre and save money on the cost of hay.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Most horse boarding operations do not feed out in the field.....they feed in the stall. Which would make rounds inconvenient and more work to stall feed.

Regards, Mike


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

Most everyone in my area has at least one horse it seems. I like horses, as long as they belong to someone else. Most of the people that buy my rounds have a few horses on small acreage with little left to graze. Only a few actually have a barn they keep their horses in. Most have little run ins for them to get out of weather when they need to. So while squares fit the bill for stall feeding supplemented by grazing and feed, my rounds serve all those purposes for them. I worried about my hay quality, because my intentions are round bales for cattle, but it's good grass. Mostly blend of fescue, bermuda, and crabgrass; concentrations of each vary depending on the time of the season it's cut. I do have a few pure bermuda fields. They've told me my rounds are better than some squares they buy to take to shows, and they don't care very much about the concentrations of grasses. I've got one lady that tells me just to bring whatever I have available. My cattle customers buy about this time of year, and my horse customers buy all year. My biggest problem is balancing my herds needs with having enough to sell. Last year I sold my last bale right about the same time of first cut this year (hay calendar year lol). It's more about finding what works for you. I'll admit that I have been looking at in line square balers, accumulator/grapples; so I know the profitability of SS, but it just doesnt pencil out for me at the current time. Once all of my equipment is paid for in a few seasons, it'll be a different story. I don't think its as much of a SS vs RB for me as it is the timing. I'm a 1 man show and have no intentions of being anything else, so I have to be automated and able to move fast. It'd be nice to have a SS option when I have a big enough window.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Horses can get respiratory problems because they tend to tunnel into the bales because they have top incisors...they dont pull a bale apart like a cow must...they eat it like an apple, boring into it. That means they are breathing in alot with their nose in the bale amongst the chaff in there. Even if it was put up perfectly with no dust due to moisture/mold, there is still dust and chaff. Take a look at what accumulates on a round baler and packs into every nook and cranny. With flakes from a small square, that doesnt happen.

There is no question that small squares are lower risk for the horse owner. I grew up with horses and have owned horses most of my life...and you will have problems if you treat em like cows. I have never seen an animal that was as strong and fragile at the same time. Just one of many contradictions that make up the horse lol.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I can't understand why a round bale can't be 98% as good as a small square. I mean it's the same damn hay, but it's baled into a different shape.
> I understand the part about small animals getting baled into a bigger bale, but once the hay is in the barn and stored properly a round bale is worth 1/2 the price per ton as a small square?
> Just don't seem right.


In theory they should be the same and under ideal conditions no difference, but how often do we get ideal conditions? The ss can handle much better some whet hay as it breathes and if there is a bit of mold it's restricted to a small area of the bale whereas in the RB the plug of whet hay is bigger and the damge is greater especially if the bale is dense. The same theory applies in spades for the Big sq if they are highly compressed. Under ideal conditions no bale is different.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Everyone here feeds outside as well as in during the winter and often during the summer if it gets dry enough. I have been lucky two summers in a row not to have to put out one section of hay. Last december we made it through and started feeding lots of hay outside in January. Does not look like we will this year. Grass is gone for the most part and isn't going to rebound enough over the next month. During the wet late summer the horses trashed the paddocks- looked like the worst march I ever had and they have not recovered.

Regarding Round vs square quality- sure it is possible to make some drop dead georgous rounds, I have made a few like this year when I ran out of wagons sbaling and another day my thrower control went on the fritz. But as they say, one bad apple spoils the bunch. The early round balers here made trash. Many of them are still making trash. They ruined the reputation of rounds for everyone. Still, for the folks with competition horses, diet management is a real issue and they are mostly using rounds just to keep horses happy the short time they are in turnout, not as primary feed. As Mike said, that is done in the stall along with managed supplements and grains. most of them have multiple sponsors and the feed sponsors help with testing and balancing nutrition needs.

The other problem with rounds is any one can make them with a minimum amount of effort. Around here that means they wait too late in the season to cut, leave it laying for 3-5 days, then rake with a mongo wheel rake, and roll. I wouldn't waste the fuel to get them out of the field. But, they are selling round bales for 15-20$ and then others cut medium quality, and so it goes...


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> Everyone here feeds outside as well as in during the winter and often during the summer if it gets dry enough. I have been lucky two summers in a row not to have to put out one section of hay. Last december we made it through and started feeding lots of hay outside in January. Does not look like we will this year. Grass is gone for the most part and isn't going to rebound enough over the next month. During the wet late summer the horses trashed the paddocks- looked like the worst march I ever had and they have not recovered.
> 
> Regarding Round vs square quality- sure it is possible to make some drop dead georgous rounds, I have made a few like this year when I ran out of wagons sbaling and another day my thrower control went on the fritz. But as they say, one bad apple spoils the bunch. The early round balers here made trash. Many of them are still making trash. They ruined the reputation of rounds for everyone. Still, for the folks with competition horses, diet management is a real issue and they are mostly using rounds just to keep horses happy the short time they are in turnout, not as primary feed. As Mike said, that is done in the stall along with managed supplements and grains. most of them have multiple sponsors and the feed sponsors help with testing and balancing nutrition needs.
> 
> The other problem with rounds is any one can make them with a minimum amount of effort. Around here that means they wait too late in the season to cut, leave it laying for 3-5 days, then rake with a mongo wheel rake, and roll. I wouldn't waste the fuel to get them out of the field. But, they are selling round bales for 15-20$ and then others cut medium quality, and so it goes...


Right on Hayman1 and as a Hay Buyer once told me ,and this guy knows hay very well he is an order buyer and buys hay a auction for customers every day. He says round bales can be of equal quality to any other shape bale , He says when you compare round to square , the rounds have the unique ability to mask some real junky hay . He says he can see weeds or sticks in squares at a distance , but not in a roll and because of that he wont buy rounds


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Here's my "method", not that it's correct, just this is the way I roll.....

My fields are pure Bermuda of various varieties.....all fertilized heavily.

AFTER cutting, on day one....if the bales get a small amount of moisture (1-2 tenths)on the day I cut, it may be salvageable for SS if I Ted very early the next morning and again later in the day.....otherwise it becomes a HRB (horse quality round bale) if it gets more moisture than that on day one, and rolled into a 54" 750# bale.

On day two, after a bit of dry down, if it gets wet again....it's probably gonna be a CRB (cow round bale) rolled at 60" and 950#

If it gets rain again, it's still salvageable for cow hay, depending on the conditions surrounding the entire process.....but if it goes to day four/five/six/seven/eight (don't laugh, I had some days like this just this year) at some point it becomes ditch hay. In that case we hook the SS back up on some occasions and bale it that way to minimize the loss we about to take 

So our goal is to always make horse quality SS.....but sometimes, when you cut 5 times a year, shit just don't work out like it was planned, and as a result our inventory of cow hay and ditch hay become greater. Of course I have the same amount of money in the harvest every time as we fertilize before each cutting, the difference to me is this: $250 for SS (but involves much more work, labor, fuel and that all important component....storage). $180pt for HRB (still need storage) $120pt on cow hay and $70pt on round rolls of ditch hay....but, $120pt for SS of ditch hay. With a hard cost of production at about $135pt I'm only making money on the horsey crowd......if not for them, I'm throwing in the towel....life is too short 

But that's my market....YMV

And FYI, all hay is sold "by the bale" but of course I know what they weigh so I have to do some math to get those numbers....I wish it was sold by the ton


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Oh, I fully understand that aspect of not being able to "portion" the hay as well.
> What I question is when a customer says "round bales are lower quality than square bales". That is a misinformed person.
> I would maintain if I bale the field 1/2 in SS and 1/2 in RB, the hay in the hay quality in the bale is almost identical. With RB I may also be able to get done faster and get the hay stored sooner.
> I think RB's give the horse boarding operation the opportunity to make more money in that they can board more horses per acre and save money on the cost of hay.


 Sure round bales can be just as high quality as small squares but at least around here it's rare that someone actually bales high quality hay in round bales because of the severe reduction in how much the hay can be sold for.

Not sure how round bales can allow a horse boarding operation to board more horses per acre though?

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> Regarding Round vs square quality- sure it is possible to make some drop dead georgous rounds, I have made a few like this year when I ran out of wagons sbaling and another day my thrower control went on the fritz. But as they say, one bad apple spoils the bunch. The early round balers here made trash. Many of them are still making trash. They ruined the reputation of rounds for everyone. Still, for the folks with competition horses, diet management is a real issue and they are mostly using rounds just to keep horses happy the short time they are in turnout, not as primary feed. As Mike said, that is done in the stall along with managed supplements and grains. most of them have multiple sponsors and the feed sponsors help with testing and balancing nutrition needs.
> 
> The other problem with rounds is any one can make them with a minimum amount of effort. Around here that means they wait too late in the season to cut, leave it laying for 3-5 days, then rake with a mongo wheel rake, and roll. I wouldn't waste the fuel to get them out of the field. But, they are selling round bales for 15-20$ and then others cut medium quality, and so it goes...


 Exactly.

Hayden


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

FarmerCline said:


> Sure round bales can be just as high quality as small squares but at least around here it's rare that someone actually bales high quality hay in round bales because of the severe reduction in how much the hay can be sold for.
> Not sure how round bales can allow a horse boarding operation to board more horses per acre though?
> Hayden


 when hay is scarce I have seen times when hay for hay rounds will bring as much as squares. But if guys have their choice they won't even buy rounds. On average an auction when there is an adequate Supply on square bales there I believe rounds will bring 40% less in money.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

FarmerCline said:


> Sure round bales can be just as high quality as small squares but at least around here it's rare that someone actually bales high quality hay in round bales because of the severe reduction in how much the hay can be sold for.
> Not sure how round bales can allow a horse boarding operation to board more horses per acre though?
> Hayden


When you have 60" of rain by September and normally get 40" of rain all year and windows of baling time sometimes less than 3 days, round bales are a great way to get a lot more hay baled fast. Especially when you work alone. I don't have employees or anyone paying for labor or equipment other than myself, so when time is short, baling speed makes all the difference between getting a field baled dry, or rained on small squares. I'll take the dry round bales anytime.
If someone around here was making small squares alone this rainy year, they'd still be on first cutting.

Just read another thread where guys in my area couldn't make hardly any horse quality hay until this week and we're already well into frost & fall weather. Round baler gives you the opportunity to bale an entire field it would take more time, resources and labor to small square.
Now I have no doubt the best quality hay and highest pricesare in small squares, but I'd be stone cold screwed for hay without a round baler this year.

On horses per acre, round bales can allow someone to more turned out horses on less pasture because a round bale in a covered feeder can keep the pastures from being eaten to bare dirt.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

KYhaymaker said:


> I dont know of any serious horse people that feed round bales. People who keep them for pasture ornaments do that maybe. I dont mind feeding ours a high quality bale, but unless you have a lot of horses that eat up a bale fast any round will be low quality pretty soon after they tear into it due to rain/sun etc. Dust/mold are the bigger problems, Ive never heard of a horse getting botulism from hay around here in central KY, and there are a lot of horse around here.


I have a customer that is a vet that specializes in equine embryo transfers, all his recipients will be eating my round bales this winter. He gets 9 bales a week for three weeks in a row then skips a week, after several cycles of this if we get a few weeks of horrible weather he can skip two weeks.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

My neighbor buys rd bales from me @ $85 per bale then unrolls them to small sq bale that he sells to horse owners & feed store. He bought 25 rd bales last week for that purpose.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

You have a good thing going Jim. I expect that many folks that now make smalls would make rounds if they could get $85 for a 4x5 or a 4x 5.5.

Regards, Mike


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Mike

The lack of rain during the normal Coastal growing season then the over abundance of rain(24'') since Sept 1 has made this year very unique. I'm also selling hay to local horse owners that mostly keep horses for ornaments. On an average most people in my area have only made 2 cuttings of Coastal this yr.

Jim


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm delivering average quality 4x5 rounds for easy keepers, yard ornaments for $100 each. Phone keeps ringing for them, too.
One of our local small square guys who sells the same grass hay for $8/40lb SS hung it up this year.
I asked him why he decided to get out and he told me "I couldn't make any good hay because of all the rain".
I may look into the round bale small square conversion equipment in the near future.
Just need more indoor space to get set up.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Guy I sell my hay to unrolls bales on the ground then sq bales them. The un-roller in photo looks simple & interesting.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Tx Jim said:


> Guy I sell my hay to unrolls bales on the ground then sq bales them. The un-roller in photo looks simple & interesting.


Jim, is that a modified, straight stick built or stock item? Looks like a brand name right behind him on the hopper.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

I used to work with the who's who of every equine vet in the US and equine botulism is prevalent when horses aren't vaccinated and are at risk. We made a botulism antitoxin that we sold a lot of for botulism-stricken horses. That's including a lot of guys in KY, even the big ones like Rood and Riddle and HDM. And for you KY folks that have never heard of it--there's a lot of botulism in KY. Clostridium botulinum type B is endemic in KY and any horses shipping to KY are recommended to receive a botulism toxoid.

The thing about botulism is it's the ingestion of the pre-formed toxin--not the bacterium itself--that causes disease. Horses are extremely sensitive to the toxin. I used to work with a herd of 100 draft horses and we fed about 48 round bales a month, they were always stored outside (but we fed the hay up fast too) and we never had problems with botulism, but our horses were vaccinated too.

Regarding penciling out, glad I read this thread. I had been thinking if I wanted to get into rounds someday but think I will stick to squares. Especially for as small as I am squares are the only way I can come out ahead.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I like that.
Assume in the picture the tractor is running the SS baler and the hydraulic outlets are running the bale unrolled?


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Hayman1 said:


> Jim, is that a modified, straight stick built or stock item? Looks like a brand name right behind him on the hopper.


The un-roller in photo is an Altec. I found it by way of Google.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I like that.
> Assume in the picture the tractor is running the SS baler and the hydraulic outlets are running the bale unrolled?


That is the way the operation appears to me.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I am suprisedmore people done unroll rounds to bale square. Seems like you could cut down on moving squares and speed up the baling process. But even small time operators/horse people use round bales. Most everyone has a tractor with loader and you could easily put one round bale under cover and pitchfork small amount off it to feed 1 animal. 
Even one neighbor that takes the time to pick corn with an old corn picker and put his corn in a corn crib told me a few days ago he was going to sell his square baler (he has a round baler too) becuase its just too much work. Yet he does not plan on stopping the whole corn crib thing. Pretty much sums up the thoughts on square bales in my area.


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

A guy I bought racks from had two big sheds, one was nothing but round bales and the other had a bale unroller right into a baler attached to a hay elevator. He stopped doing rounds because of labor and time issues with his off farm job so he round bales everything. if somebody wants a hundred bales of hay he just unrolls it thru the baler up the elevator into a bale wagon til he has 100. He gets the fields done faster and can do orders at night or any weather he wants. Was a really cool setup. Had built a stand for the Baler and the tires were off. Kinda like a permanent setup. Wish I took a picture.


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

leeave96 said:


> Taking back more ground on the farm and some of it is a little steeper than I really want to put a tractor with square baler and kicker wagon train. So I'm thinking maybe this is round bale territory. All hay is for sale - we have no livestock to which to feed it.
> 
> Question is - you folks making round bales (grass hay), how do you pencil it out? What do you grow, ie OG, fescue, etc. bale size that sells well? Any round bale horse customers?
> 
> ...


I guess the thread did dissolve into a SS vs RB, and that's partially my fault. Apologies. I went straight to the penciling it out portion of his questions and realized that I didn't answer some of the others, so I'll make an effort to put it back on track.

"All hay is for sale - we have no livestock to which to feed it." -- In my opinion, this isn't very good. I feed the less desirable looking bales. There's nothing wrong with them, but I try to fetch top dollar for a round bale, which can be a little tricky of there's a touch of mold where they touched and got some rain on it during storage. Cows couldn't care less, actually eat that first, so those are the one's that get fed.

"What do you grow, ie OG, fescue, etc" -- Most of my fields are what I would call native for GA. I'm sure they were planted at one time, but haven't seen a plow or a NTD in decades at best. They are blended with fescue, bermuda, and crabgrass; concentrations of which are dependent on month it is cut. Spring, (late April cutting) is mostly Fescue; June/July cuttings are mostly bermuda, Sep/Oct cuttings are Bermuda/Crab. All 3 are present in all cuttings, just more or less of a mix. I do have some pure Bermuda fields, and some annual fields that were drilled as either cover crops (rye) or dove attractants (millet) for a local hunting club.

"how do you pencil it out?" If everything goes to plan (HA!) there's a decent profit if you don't count your time. It pays the equipment bill and fuel costs. After equipment is paid for, obviously it pencils out much better. Keep in mind I am able to do it all by myself, so my labor is written off so to speak, and I have no one else to consider.

"bale size that sells well?"-- If I know that I'm going to feed them, I bale a full 4x6. If I am selling them, I bale them 4x5. I keep the baler on max density either way, which makes a heavy bale. It's one reason I'm able to charge so much in a market full of $30 crap quality 4x5's. No one is interested in a 5' wide bale, and they certainly won't pay for it. Like Dawg... I wish it was sold by weight instead of package size.

"Any round bale horse customers?" -- I target cattle sales, but somehow ended up with a LOT of horse customers. Most of them would rather have my cattle fescue/bermuda bales than my pure bermuda bales.

"Pound for pound it's hard to beat the going price of squares vs rounds." -- You'll never make the money of SS with RB. Just not gonna happen. You also don't have the costs/time associated with SS either.

Hope that puts the thread back on track. This is my market. I initially started off with the business model geared towards SS. I rapidly found it didn't work for me. RB does. After the RB equipment is paid for, we'll likely add SS for our pure fields.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Hayjosh said:


> I used to work with the who's who of every equine vet in the US and equine botulism is prevalent when horses aren't vaccinated and are at risk. We made a botulism antitoxin that we sold a lot of for botulism-stricken horses. That's including a lot of guys in KY, even the big ones like Rood and Riddle and HDM. And for you KY folks that have never heard of it--there's a lot of botulism in KY. Clostridium botulinum type B is endemic in KY and any horses shipping to KY are recommended to receive a botulism toxoid.
> 
> The thing about botulism is it's the ingestion of the pre-formed toxin--not the bacterium itself--that causes disease. Horses are extremely sensitive to the toxin. I used to work with a herd of 100 draft horses and we fed about 48 round bales a month, they were always stored outside (but we fed the hay up fast too) and we never had problems with botulism, but our horses were vaccinated too.
> 
> Regarding penciling out, glad I read this thread. I had been thinking if I wanted to get into rounds someday but think I will stick to squares. Especially for as small as I am squares are the only way I can come out ahead.


I have no doubt you are correct I just dont personally know any horses injured by it. Correct me if Im wrong but I thought that the toxin was produced in anaerobic environments...which is why you have to be careful with your technique when canning food. In a big tight roll bale I bet it is a very low oxygen environment once you are a foot or more into it even if it isnt wrapped as baleage. I can see that it is possible for the toxin to get produced by the bacteria there. We always give the toxoid to our steers.

I think there is definetely a place for a roller even in a exclusively small square operation. You could save some hay that otherwise might get rained on. Particularly if you had one of the unroller machines to convert it back into squares later. Of course we would all have piles of equipment for occasional use if money was no object so I dont know if it would be cost effective for you or not.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

KYhaymaker said:


> I have no doubt you are correct I just dont personally know any horses injured by it. Correct me if Im wrong but I thought that the toxin was produced in anaerobic environments...which is why you have to be careful with your technique when canning food. In a big tight roll bale I bet it is a very low oxygen environment once you are a foot or more into it even if it isnt wrapped as baleage. I can see that it is possible for the toxin to get produced by the bacteria there. We always give the toxoid to our steers.


You are correct, but I'll explain (I did my thesis on Clostridium so will try not to get carried away  ). Genus wide, the Clostridia are anaerobic spore formers (so they can survive in very adverse conditions but do require anaerobic environments), but in a traditional infection model you ingest the bacterium, it multiplies, and releases a toxin in the process. The toxins help to facilitate immune evasion or infection. The pathogenesis of C. botulinum is a little different because the bacterium multiplies in the anaerobic environment of the hay (or canned good to your example), and releases toxins. It is at that point when the hay is consumed that the toxin is consumed, rather than consuming the bacterium and then the bacterium releases toxin.

Other famous Clostridia you probably know...

Clostridium tetani (tetanus)

Clostridium difficile (number one hospital acquired infection, antibiotic-associated)

Clostridium perfringens (foodborne illness, livestock pathogen)


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

rebaling has been used succesfully for years down here......just depends on your market.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Hayjosh said:


> You are correct, but I'll explain (I did my thesis on Clostridium so will try not to get carried away  ). Genus wide, the Clostridia are anaerobic spore formers (so they can survive in very adverse conditions but do require anaerobic environments), but in a traditional infection model you ingest the bacterium, it multiplies, and releases a toxin in the process. The toxins help to facilitate immune evasion or infection. The pathogenesis of C. botulinum is a little different because the bacterium multiplies in the anaerobic environment of the hay (or canned good to your example), and releases toxins. It is at that point when the hay is consumed that the toxin is consumed, rather than consuming the bacterium and then the bacterium releases toxin.
> 
> Other famous Clostridia you probably know...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I actually kinda enjoy learning anout this stuff because it is so different than my own background/careeer. I am amazed at how potent the toxin is...just ridiculously lethal. Because we canned food growing up I was aware of it, the extension offices and the canning guides really beat that horse back when lots of people canned food every summer.

This thread reminds me my tetanus shot is overdue! There is an episode of Andy Griffith where farmer Rafe Hollister refuses to get his tetanus shot and while Im not quite as bad as him I pretty much avoid the doctors office as if it were the plague.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

So do I, as I think the majority of men do.....kinda like stopping to ask for directions (thankfully we don't have to worry much with that anymore) but it cost me recently by not going when I knew I had a problem and several red flags were ignored.......I came to the realization that a lot of Americans have known for years....we need to fix the broken healthcare system, it's screwed up at every level....I thought that's what we were gonna get from the last guy but turned out his idea just worsened the problem in almost every respect. That being said, if I get to needing medical attention, there's not much better, but you better have your pocketbook ready.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

The private sector will solve it. Trump needs to create a competition and see what the contestants come up with. Government needs to stay out of it other than a slight supervisory and slight regulatory role.


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

Everything the government touches in the slightest way gets FUBAR'd. The best bet for us is that we get some type of regulation to control the astronomical prices of healthcare, pharma, and med devices. I have good private healthcare, but I'm also enrolled in my VA healthcare. I've tried to use the VA several times. If you want to know why the government doesn't need to run healthcare, look no further than the absurdity of the VA. I'm service connected for injuries sustained on active duty, and repaired by military medicine. I seek continued care for that at my private doctor to avoid dealing with VA. I can't wait the 30-45 days for an appointment when I can't move, not to mention the 6 weeks of PT before I can even be scheduled for an appointment to speak to an Ortho specialist. I can call my private doctor now and see my Ortho Specialist today. My other Brothers don't all have that luxury, and it pains me to see the shit they have to go through, and the un-Godly amount of pills they take for the same stuff I have, that my private physician says I do not need. Pharma controls the VA, the evidence is clear. I stay away.

My thoughts are they need to make the healthcare industry non-profit, control frivolous law suits, re-invent the FDA, and let the market control itself.

Most people don't realize the FDA does no research of its own. They rely on the research provided by and paid for by the producer of the product they approve/disapprove. That is completely unsat, and if that's all they're using to approve/deny, they need to stop taking tax payer money.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

If you woulda told me 25 yrs ago that the hospital administrator/CEO job would pay better than a brain surgeon I woulda laughed, I'd have to eat a lot of crow today......

I agree, the government is inept at running things, they can certainly build things, what with unlimited resources and all......but when it come to the nuts and bolts of running the thing it's a fubar for sure....
Competition and the private sector can solve a lot of the issues, but we have a mess to straighten out.....the same can be said for our educational system.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

We done went and jumped right off of round bales  
Of course it's better than jumping over them like this.....






Then you're gonna need the healthcare.......morons are born every day


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Dan_GA said:


> Most people don't realize the FDA does no research of its own. They rely on the research provided by and paid for by the producer of the product they approve/disapprove. That is completely unsat, and if that's all they're using to approve/deny, they need to stop taking tax payer money.


If it's unsatisfactory, then who carries out the study and bankrolls it? The studies take years and cost $10's to $100's of millions of dollars. The FDA is not it's own research agency, there's no way any single entity would be able to execute and bankroll all the studies for which it has regulatory oversight (that being said, the agency does fund some research). It's a regulatory agency; it sets the regulations, study and product requirements, reviews study design and study data. It approves or rejects these. The FDA also takes money directly from the pharma companies, who pay a fee which provides the FDA more resources so studies can get reviewed and/or approved faster.

I always see 'private sector.' Well pharma is private sector and there is fierce competition. But then I see complaints about costs. So which is it?

If you make the healthcare industry non-profit then kiss innovation and advances in medical science and technology goodbye.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> It's a regulatory agency; it sets the regulations, study and product requirements, reviews study design and study data. It approves or rejects these. The FDA also takes money directly from the pharma companies, who pay a fee which provides the FDA more resources so studies can get reviewed and/or approved faster


I can see a problem here..... 

I don't completely agree that being non-profit will curtail innovation and technology, just look at the farming industry 

I think we have a purty low cost Pharma industry now, but I also understand that some of them are outrageous.....them scientists must be making the big bucks


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Healthcare non-profit? So are we entitled to help ourselves to the product of another man's thoughts and labor?

Our healthcare is expensive because it is mismanged, has a lot of middlemen, and thousands of regulations to comply with, and army of lawyers to ensure compliance and then defend lawsuits when mistakes are made.

Its also expensive because it is awesome. Awesome stuff is expensive. You want the best, you gotta pay.

The best healthcare is expensive, and not everyone can afford it, The best food is expensive, not everyone can afford it, The best shelter is expensive, not everyone can afford it....etc etc.

If you want a shortage of the best things in this world and make them disappear, then price control them and watch how fast mens talent and energy flee to endeavors where their profit is not controlled.

If the government capped the selling price of small squares at $3/bale, most of you would quit and the rest of you would make hay that is actually only worth that three dollars, cause you wont stay in business long selling quality $7 hay, with all the expensive inputs that high quality requires, for only $3.

This push for cheap healthcare is going to kill quality healthcare. We can and should make it more efficient and try to make it more free market. You should have the same kind of business relationship with your doctor as you do your tractor mechanic. Trying to use government to force someone to provide you with something at a lower price than he will freely give it is socialism. Socialism doesnt work. Never has, never will, because it is simply incompatible with human nature. The producer will quit, or lower quality, or fight you. Either way, the product you desperately need is destroyed. This happens everytime it is tried.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Along the lines of socialism, don't listen to the vacuous skulls on liberal TV or Bernie Sanders types in politics who push "Norwegian Style Socialism" on you.
Those countries aren't really socialist, they are really more like "high tax democracies". 
Bernie wants you to believe his high tax socialism is the answer. Really all he wants to do is take all your hard earned money through 50-90% taxation and filter it back with government funded health care, education, etc. remember, there's little competition now in lower & higher education & healthcare because the government is the only one who provides it. 
Might sound good, but Bernies going to be able to educate and provide you your health care HIS WAY. The books won't have anything in them but the "virtues" of socialism. This will eliminate free thinking. The health care will have no competition to develop new improved techniques, since the government is the provider and the regulating body.
Someone like Bernie or Hillary will become the supreme ruler or "dictator" the liberal news media negatively and wrongly calls Trump everyday.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> I can see a problem here.....
> 
> I don't completely agree that being non-profit will curtail innovation and technology, just look at the farming industry
> 
> I think we have a purty low cost Pharma industry now, but I also understand that some of them are outrageous.....them scientists must be making the big bucks


Well a lot of those bucks get sucked right back into hay, they money's got to be lost somewhere 

The FDA is under-funded for what it's charged with, and makes it less efficient. The fees the pharma companies aren't a bribe in any means, it's like an additional tax they're paying. Except THEY'RE the ones that said 'let us give you this money so you're more efficient and have more resources.'

Do not get me wrong; the FDA and USDA will also be a major boulder in my path. But I understand why it needs to be there...those Big Pharma scientists are are some pretty shady people


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

KYhaymaker said:


> Healthcare non-profit? So are we entitled to help ourselves to the product of another man's thoughts and labor? Non-profit doesn't mean that no one is getting paid. Research non profit organizations and how they run. The problem isn't salary.
> 
> Our healthcare is expensive because it is mismanged, has a lot of middlemen, and thousands of regulations to comply with, and army of lawyers to ensure compliance and then defend lawsuits when mistakes are made. Which I addressed.
> 
> ...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I don't think anyone is wanting "cheap" healthcare. Just what they had before the muslim came to power and lied like the dog he is about everything connected with o care. A better choice would be to substitute "affordable" for cheap. Almost everyone I know who had healthcare pre-muslim are now paying 4 times the previous amount and have less coverage.....

Regards, Mike


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Very fortunate the wife's work picked up the tab when it increased. We have 90/10 and in my opinion I wouldn't want any less.

Now as far as needing a bale of hay to live..... yeah ummm I kind of need hay to live. The surplus hay I produce allows me to run more cattle or sell, that in turn equates to more money. This is called economics! It's like saying you don't need gas to live but you do need gas to drive the car to get to work to get paid to live. As the saying goes, 'money can't buy happiness'... but it can, most people are happy to be alive.

You don't need healthcare to live but it sure is nice. Healthcare just prolongs the inevitable. I know where the buck needs to stop and it's not primarily the insurance companies' fault. BCBS sends me itemized statements of claims. It's rogue medical coding schemes that practices are applying.

Example: I took my son in for 2 vaccinations. His itemized statement said he had 5 shots and a physical. I told BCBS they need to request the practice to resubmit. The practice still filed a revised false claim of 4 shots. Before you say this is a private practice screwing it over like Medicare fraud. This is a state owned medical provider.

The buck needs to stop at all levels of healthcare providers from dentists, physicians, and specialists.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

The problem as I see it with regards to our medical crisis.....monopolies. Be it Pharma, hospitals, schools, etc. it's all being monopolized....that's what we've seen here and it's been happening for years, and ramping up at a fever pitch it seems nowadays. Here, you have one choice for a hospital, and they have constantly shot down any request for a competing hospital based on a certificate of need, every time in the last 35 years......
The inhaler problem is a Pharma problem resulting from a monopoly.....
Want to go to medical school, there ain't that many and guess who they're crowded with, it ain't just Americans being educated in the "select few" medical colleges......my son has applied for one of 50 to be accepted with 1400 applications.....perhaps a little more availability or less "inclusion/diversity" 
Monopolies have historically been bad......that's why we as a nation have always fought hard so as to not have monopolies. Caution seems to be being cast to the winds of change in the medical industry and YOUR health is not the number one concern.....amd I can certainly understand why the neurosurgeon is a bit cranky because the CEO is making 10 times more than he is......it's part of the socialist type swing we've seen taking place. The divide between filthy rich and poor with very little in between......just the working stiff that has to pay for everything.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Tort reform has in a lot of ways been a bad thing for the medical care field as well......and I hate attorneys, except when a MD cuts off the wrong leg because the bean counters making millions had him overloaded with work and was willing to pay subordinates to do most of the "leg" work, no pun intended  for minimal pay.....


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Vol said:


> I don't think anyone is wanting "cheap" healthcare. Just what they had before the muslim came to power and lied like the dog he is about everything connected with o care. A better choice would be to substitute "affordable" for cheap. Almost everyone I know who had healthcare pre-muslim are now paying 4 times the previous amount and have less coverage.....
> 
> Regards, Mike


I'm only pay 3 times with less coverage, but Mike's close enough. P..... me off every month, when I send in my payment.

Larry


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

I stand by my post. I understand people need healthcare. I dont want anyone to die. People also need food to live. They need shelter to live. Where does it end? Again, the market solves those needs better than government.

We have modern technologies and medicines that mean that healthcare is more expensive than the techniques of the past, just like the main tractor I farm with is more expensive than my grandfathers two cylinder. Its also far more capable.

If we socialize healthcare we will destroy it. Our motives for socializing it can be absolutely pure and kind but the result will be the same, whether some doctors believe itor not. I dont have to guess, it has already been demonstrably proven. I have lived in countries with socialized medicine. It is horrible.

For example, England, which is no third world country, has socialized medicine. If you have an acute problem, good luck getting in on time. My English neighbors complained a lot about their system. Everyone I knew also had private healthcare they used for their actual needs. Imagine that. They paid exorbitant taxes to support their national healthcare, and then paid premiums similar to ours in the US so that they could actually access decent care. So they paid twice. If they needed surgery, many of them flew out of the country to places like India to get it and paid out of pocket. If you cant afford to do that, you were stuck with their government system, which meant you often went without.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, no matter how bad you need it. Someone has to pay, and someone always does. When government uses force to compel market outcomes, it always has a negative effect on quantity or quality or both.

Economics doesnt change because human nature doesnt change. Dans central argument against my $3 hay analogy is that healthcare is different because people really need it. I understand that...but if we use government instead of charity to solve need problems everyone will soon be in need when we destroy the product. Thats the way it is. That is not to say there arent things we can do to bring down costs...and those things include making healthcare MORE free market, not less.

Heres what I mean. Like I said, your relationship with doctors should be like it is with mechanics. How is it that most of you know when you are getting ripped off for a ball joint replacement on your truck? You know what is reasonable and what is not, and can easily find what other mechanics are charging and get estimates. Yet none of you know what is reasonable really for a knee replacment...because there is no free market for that. You cant easily shop around for the best price, compare quality of service, or anything else that you are free to do with far less important products you are interested in purchasing.

If you doubt me on government making products expensive and unavailable, take a look at another vital industry....air travel. The government used to fully regulate the air travel market the way they do now with healthcare. That was dismantled in 1978. Look at what happened since then...fares are drastically lower, and safety has greatly improved. The government through the FAA still requires "standards of care" but stepped away from trying to regulate the market. Naysayers said only the rich would fly, the market would shrink to just major cities, and other doom and gloom. The opposite happened. Human nature is genius at getting what they want through the market and solving problems when government gets out of the way.

Of course someone will say that all those other examples of socializing this or that failed because they did it wrong or implemented it wrong. What was that definition of insanity again? We need to do this another way, the free market way.


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

I'm not disagreeing at all about socialized medicine. Can't be argued that it is horrible for providers and recipients. I think Mike verbalized more of what I was trying to say. Truth is, none of us have the solution. Unfortunately, after the government touched it and turned it to shit, the only alternative is more government interference to "fix" it. It can't be a band-aid on a gunshot wound fix. Today's healthcare is like trying to drink from a firehose. It'll take politicians from BOTH sides of the aisle to sit down with big pharma, big hospitals, and big doctors to come up with a total replacement for O'care. O'care was and is a disaster, and the USSC only let it stand as a tax. We all agree a fix is needed. Just a lot of difference in opinion on how you fix it without killing people; literally and financially.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

I've been away for a couple of days. Interesting how this topic went from "Round Bales" to "Socialized Medicine". You gotta love the off-season on Haytalk....


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

I agree it takes government action in the sense it will take government action to get themselves out of healthcare.

The problem now is that in my opinion, most politicians want more, rather than less, involvement because they get power and money from that. It will be very very hard to push them out again.

Honestly, I think obamacare was written the way it was because it was designed to fail on purpose. They wanted a complete and total takeover of healthcare, single payer, but knew they couldnt do that politically. So, they created a system that would wreck healthcare, create massive unhappiness about it, and thus provide the environment and political will to get done what they really wanted in the first place.

I predict it will get worse, people will cry "anything is better than this, and we will get single payer. We will regret it.

Once single payer comes, the list of things that government will have an excuse to control and regulate in your private life is virtually endless. Almost every decision we make in life has a health or safety aspect to it. We will lose far more than our ability to access quality, timely healthcare.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

RockmartGA said:


> I've been away for a couple of days. Interesting how this topic went from "Round Bales" to "Socialized Medicine". You gotta love the off-season on Haytalk....


Lol true. 
In all seriousness, Id substitute the members here for the 535 or so people in congress in a heartbeat. The members here actually solve problems as they live and work in this economy everyday. 
The fact that congress, including the people that voted FOR obamacare, exempted themselves from it is the first clue they arent working for us.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

at one time....about 2008 as a matter of fact....I visited the the nations capital and the tour bus driver said that 65% of the house couldn't qualify for a credit card. I wonder do they count John Deere credit.....I might could change the statistics 

No free market in healthcare that's for sure, not anymore and it's getting worse everyday as the monopolies increase......interesting enough, it's not in ALL aspects of healthcare and just as interesting it's ONLY the areas that rely on insurance as the payer. If you need Dental care, chances are you have a purty good chance of shopping around for that root canal or crown.......ditto for eye care, lasik surgery used to be expensive, priced it lately? Single payer surely isn't the answer......it's the nail in the coffin.
Competiton is a good thing for the marketplace....it will drive down prices but if there's only one place to go? What's one to do......
My solution would be a coverage that was affordable......say the monthly price of a new car, and it covered your ass for anything catastrophic, up to $5k you pay 80%....$10k you pay 60%....$15k you pay 40%.....$20k you pay 20%.....$30k or more....you pay 5% up to 25k out of pocket. 
Now this insurance wouldn't cover prescriptions, that would be out of pocket.....unless, it was the result of a covered ^^^ claim, then the medications cost should be added to the total cost of the procedure. 
Prexisting conditions should be covered and they could be the same as the above ^^^^^^
But what to do about Medicaid and Medicare.....should the later be done away with all together? what about the first one? I've got a solution for that as well, if you are on the first one, we are going to merge the local health clinics into a new agency that is going to use the VA clinics as well to treat those patients. The current VA patients can use whatever hospital/doctors they choose......

I'll think of more


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Vote somedevildawg 2020!!!! No, you’re too smart to be a politician. Leave the politics up to those that can’t do anything else.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol....I've been trying to talk a buddy of mine into running for state office, he's retired and would make a good 'un......he likes to say " I will when you do"  and therein lies the problem......who would really like to subject themselves to the crap that is about to be thrown you and your families way.......sad.


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## cjsr8595 (Jul 7, 2014)

went from round bales to health insurance, i wonder how many round bales it would take to pay my health premium.............


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

cjsr8595 said:


> went from round bales to health insurance, i wonder how many round bales it would take to pay my health premium.............


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

If you are struggling with high insurance premiums, you might consider this Christian-based 'crowd-sourced' option. My newly-widowed mom, who has always been a homemaker her entire life and was left with no [affordable] health insurance after my dad died, is now doing this. She pays in $305/month. At doctor visits she does cash pay with 40% discount. When she has a "need" that exceeds $300, the claim is submitted to Samaritan and they send it to other members who send money to help cover a substantial portion of the cost. All members send their share (in her case, $305) to someone in need. A certain number of members are assigned to each need. This organization has been running for 20 years now. They'll cover claims up to $250,000.

"Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."

https://samaritanministries.org/


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hayjosh said:


> If you are struggling with high insurance premiums, you might consider this Christian-based 'crowd-sourced' option. My newly-widowed mom, who has always been a homemaker her entire life and was left with no [affordable] health insurance after my dad died, is now doing this. She pays in $305/month. At doctor visits she does cash pay with 40% discount. When she has a "need" that exceeds $300, the claim is submitted to Samaritan and they send it to other members who send money to help cover a substantial portion of the cost. All members send their share (in her case, $305) to someone in need. A certain number of members are assigned to each need. This organization has been running for 20 years now. They'll cover claims up to $250,000.
> 
> "Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
> 
> https://samaritanministries.org/


And what if your bill is 1M?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> And what if your bill is 1M?


And unfortunately that's easy to acheive nowadays......it's like they have a license to steal


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> And unfortunately that's easy to acheive nowadays......it's like they have a license to steal


I know for a fact that a helicopter ride 38 miles is $16,783 and some change. About $442 per loaded mile. At average speed of 160 miles per hour, that comes to $70,720 per hour. I'm not gonna bitch about shop labor rates NO MORE!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Wow, that's expensive.....


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> And what if your bill is 1M?


You're probably going bankrupt.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hayjosh said:


> You're probably going bankrupt.


Im more worried about major disasters wether it is medical,property damage,etc that could bankrupt me vs a smaller disaster,not that 250,000 is small.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

40 years ago squares made sense for special markets around here. Today you can't get any help (unless you are a commercial operator and it's your full time job with full time employees) and the weather is your enemy. For a one person operation, rounds work.

For people who don't have time to fool with hay, rounds work...don't have to feed daily.

For folks with limited storage facilities, rounds work....stored outside.

Different sized rounds fit different markets. For some 4x4 or even less is the need and others 5x6's aren't large enough.

I find rollers more reliable machinery than squares in economically priced units....that STOs can afford. I don't see a 200 ton/year supplier as a STO........that's 8,000 50# squares a year!!!!!

Hills aren't for rolls if you can help it from both a rolling off down the hill and baler tipping over standpoint especially with today's 4x6 balers.

Rollers need something to roll. Short, thinly populated grasses work for squares but in keeping waste to a minimum you need long stems and leaves in a good hefty windrow to roll.

Popular sized (larger) rollers require more HP (for both rolling and transporting) which is a disadvantage to some folks.

Rolls are easy to deliver on a will call basis. Load a pair on your baler tractor and you have a ton or more with a quick, easy, delivery in any kind of weather.

Just some thoughts.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> Im more worried about major disasters wether it is medical,property damage,etc that could bankrupt me vs a smaller disaster,not that 250,000 is small.


 A friend of mine got diagnosed with Crohn's and his wife was diagnosed with breast cancer at the same time. They had kids too. They maxed their medical coverage out and it still bankrupted them. To add insult to injury, neither one could work either. The wife works again but he has never been able to get back to it due to complications from his Crohn's.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hayjosh said:


> A friend of mine got diagnosed with Crohn's and his wife was diagnosed with breast cancer at the same time. They had kids too. They maxed their medical coverage out and it still bankrupted them. To add insult to injury, neither one could work either. The wife works again but he has never been able to get back to it due to complications from his Crohn's.


and that is why I have a policy that has no limit.I could of picked a policy for slightly less premium that did have a 1 M limit but with today's health care costs That can easily be surpassed.

$250,000 health coverage isn't enough in today's world.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I also can't believe how cheap up front a round baler is compared to a SS baler with an accumulator or a large square baler. I do however like the Krone multi baler concept: A large pack of small square bales in on big bundle or just one big square bale. Pretty slick.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

With the talk about health care costs there is one thing i cant figure out. This is from a Canadian point of view. The difference between the cost for people and what a vet charges. Health care costs at least 10× what a vets does for similar process.plus a lot of vets take better care of the animals than the Dr. and nurses do of their patients. Less medical mistakes with vets also. But with our public healthcare lots of people but not all working in health care treat the patient's worse than the farmer we all know that doesn't feed his livestock. But either way if vets could work on people that would be the way to go.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I've had my vet stitch me, back before I had insurance.....and I've had my dentist do a few as well....he was hunting with me when I had my accident. But I would trust my vet to do a lot of things for sure.....
Their price seems to have risen quite a bit in recent years however....


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Our old vet, said many years ago that in the U of M vet program he was in in the 60s, they started with a class of 300. At graduating, only 70 remained. Where did the rest of them go you wonder quietly to yourself?

They couldn't hack vet school, went to Med School jnstead. Frightening isn't it?


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

Theres alot more for a vet to know about all the different animals, a human dr only has to know about humans.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I talked with a meat science teacher in collage,he tried for several years to get in vet school never accepted. On a lark he and friend applied medical school and both where accepted first try. He wanted to be around animals so was teaching animal science.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

hog987 said:


> With the talk about health care costs there is one thing i cant figure out. This is from a Canadian point of view. The difference between the cost for people and what a vet charges. Health care costs at least 10× what a vets does for similar process.plus a lot of vets take better care of the animals than the Dr. and nurses do of their patients.*No they don't. There are a LOT of things we can get away with for animals that would never fly for people. * Less medical mistakes with vets also. *Also not true. But it's not the same when Fluffy dies on the table vs when dad dies on the table. *But with our public healthcare lots of people but not all working in health care treat the patient's worse than the farmer we all know that doesn't feed his livestock. But either way if vets could work on people that would be the way to go. *You really don't want that.*


Ethically, and morally, humans are in an entirely different solar system than animals. There's an entire standard of care and living for humans that wouldn't be practical for animals nor would be it be anywhere close to affordable. You can get away with a lot more in veterinary products; more leniency on adverse reactions, less stringency on safety studies, and smaller samples sizes for field studies that are conducted in significantly shorter timelines and at a fraction of the cost of human FDA studies, it's not shocking that human medicine is more expensive than animal medicine.

Veterinarians don't face near the malpractice lawsuits or risk that human doctors do either. And malpractice insurance is very expensive. Salaries are much higher in human medicine vs. veterinary medicine. New vets to the field will average a salary of $60-70k annually, and the profession averages a salary of $100k, and vet techs are only averaging $33k annually. Compare that to medical doctors averaging $200k+ and nurses averaging $72k.

When I worked in human pharma, drug cost was never a consideration during our research because of insurance and the necessity of safety and efficacy. But, having spent most of my career designing and developing veterinary products, cost is a very important consideration, especially in livestock products where each animal is an SKU.

That being said, there are still a lot of excessive costs to healthcare that I don't understand where they're coming from, and why the insurance companies allow them. There are a lot of medical supplies used in human medicine that are also used in veterinary medicine. The very same bag of lactated ringer's solution that I give my cat every night for his renal failure is the same damn bag (part number and brand) of LRS that was hanging on my dad's IV drip in the hospital. The only difference is I pay $18 a bag (includes IV transfer set) and he's billed $120.

That's not to sound like I'm picking on the veterinarian because I'm not (and it's my field). Speaking from my own opinion, my perception of what sets veterinarians apart from medical doctors is passion for the job. An overwhelming majority of veterinarians and techs enter the profession because of their passion for the job. I don't honestly know what motivates a lot of med students to enter the field. The veterinarian faces a constant uphill battle; a stressful low-paying job relative to the educational input and hours required, a more limited toolbox from which to work but many more species requiring care, and high suicide rates to the profession (but medical doctors also have high suicide rates).


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> Ethically, and morally, humans are in an entirely different solar system than animals. There's an entire standard of care and living for humans that wouldn't be practical for animals nor would be it be anywhere close to affordable. You can get away with a lot more in veterinary products; more leniency on adverse reactions, less stringency on safety studies, and smaller samples sizes for field studies that are conducted in significantly shorter timelines and at a fraction of the cost of human FDA studies, it's not shocking that human medicine is more expensive than animal medicine.
> 
> Veterinarians don't face near the malpractice lawsuits or risk that human doctors do either. And malpractice insurance is very expensive. Salaries are much higher in human medicine vs. veterinary medicine. New vets to the field will average a salary of $60-70k annually, and the profession averages a salary of $100k, and vet techs are only averaging $33k annually. Compare that to medical doctors averaging $200k+ and nurses averaging $72k.
> 
> ...


One thing your missing is the difference between the way our public health care is ran in Canada compared to south of the border. Malpractice suits in Canada are just about non existent. You can be the worst Dr ever and still have work. Killing patients through neglect and the system will still keep your working in a place like a walk in clinic. Nurses and other staff cant get fired for doing a bad job and if the job was beyond that bad you get suspended for a time with pay. Now you migh be suspended for 2 years with one years pay. But your not fired. The way the system is run here right now short of killing a patient in a hospital bed on purpose not much really happens to the staff for any kind of mistakes or neglect. Yes our health care is free(taxed) and we unfortunately get what we pay.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

That is a bold and honest assessment.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree, although we've known it for years.

Wait times for that wonderful system are terrible as well.....

We have excellent healthcare, but a terrible way of delivering it.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> Ethically, and morally, humans are in an entirely different solar system than animals. There's an entire standard of care and living for humans that wouldn't be practical for animals nor would be it be anywhere close to affordable. You can get away with a lot more in veterinary products; more leniency on adverse reactions, less stringency on safety studies, and smaller samples sizes for field studies that are conducted in significantly shorter timelines and at a fraction of the cost of human FDA studies, it's not shocking that human medicine is more expensive than animal medicine.
> 
> Veterinarians don't face near the malpractice lawsuits or risk that human doctors do either. And malpractice insurance is very expensive. Salaries are much higher in human medicine vs. veterinary medicine. New vets to the field will average a salary of $60-70k annually, and the profession averages a salary of $100k, and vet techs are only averaging $33k annually. Compare that to medical doctors averaging $200k+ and nurses averaging $72k.
> 
> ...


One huge obstacle I see that faces the Vet is the fact that animals can't tell you they have a headache, or where's the pain located, or what they had for supper last night that gave them the GIs. I agree that it must be a passion for the job. Have a niece that's a Vet assistant.....just loves it.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I also can't believe how cheap up front a round baler is compared to a SS baler with an accumulator or a large square baler. I do however like the Krone multi baler concept: A large pack of small square bales in on big bundle or just one big square bale. Pretty slick.


Krone also makes a smaller multibaler where each small bale weighs a lot less than 100lbs and this IMO would be a much better way to go.

One gets the advantage a the "Bundle" for loading and the buyer gets the smaller and easier bale to handle. Don't know why it hasn't caught on more than it has, I hardly hear it mentioned.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Is that the 8 series Krone? I thought it was the large flake that steered that horse folk away. The SS 4-6 lb flake is kind of idiot proof for stables.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

hillside hay said:


> Is that the 8 series Krone? I thought it was the large flake that steered that horse folk away. The SS 4-6 lb flake is kind of idiot proof for stables.


There are 2 models, 1 with individual bales in the bundle around 120-150lbs and another one smaller with bales around 70-90 lbs and the smaller baler is also cheaper and needs less hp in the tractor.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Texasmark said:


> One huge obstacle I see that faces the Vet is the fact that animals can't tell you they have a headache, or where's the pain located, or what they had for supper last night that gave them the GIs. I agree that it must be a passion for the job. Have a niece that's a Vet assistant.....just loves it.


And owners that don't want to take the animals in or wait too long to get them the care they need.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hayjosh said:


> And owners that don't want to take the animals in or wait too long to get them the care they need.


some people are the same way,they don't go in until it's to late.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

hog987 said:


> One thing your missing is the difference between the way our public health care is ran in Canada compared to south of the border. Malpractice suits in Canada are just about non existent.


And with no malpractice suits, no excessive attorney fees, hum, ever wonder what a reduction of excessive attorney fees would do to our (the US) insurance rates? 

Oops, back to RBs.

Larry


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

But what happens when some sob takes off the wrong arm, or does a knee replacement on the wrong knee.......or kills your ass . What to do now......


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> But what happens when some sob takes off the wrong arm, or does a knee replacement on the wrong knee.......or kills your ass . What to do now......


Wtf does it matter? You're dead, your problems are over.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Nope, what about Pegleg, what about one lung, and most importantly, what about my wife/sons and daughters? All because some dumb, graduate in the bottom of the class, M.D. Went out and got drunk with the boys the night before.....or didn't follow protocol and now I have an infection that's gonna be with me the rest of my life? One thing to always remember about doctors....they didn't all graduate in the top of the class, someone had to graduate at the bottom....not to say that all that didn't graduate high are bad, but you get the picture. Without the ability to sue their ass, the quality goes down.....


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

My wife’s grandma had a double mastectomy probably 20 years ago. Wasn’t supposed to be a double, but the doctor actually took the wrong one. I kid you not. They never sued for malpractice (her grandma is way too nice) When the hospital realized the mistake, they said they would not charge insurance for the double mastectomy, just the single. Can’t make shit like this up.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

The problem is with a huge malpractice lawsuit is that the dr doesn't pay it the insurance co does and then we all pay higher hospital rates because their insurance premiums went up.

El drunko Dr who screwed up goes on doing what he does maybe at another hospital.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

In 2015 I had my left hip replaced and 3 months later I had my right hip replaced.. when I went in for my left hip as I was in the area getting ready for surgery the person in charge of preparations ask me if I was aware it was my left hip I said yes I was so she put a big X in the area of my left hip where the incision would be and initialed it. Then the surgeon came in and among several other things he asked the same question and initialed the left hip. Just before I went into surgery another girl who was called a follower ask the same question and she initialed my hip. This girl also went over the same things the surgeon had gone over and explained surgery again even though it had been explained to me before. She then told me she would stay with me the whole way through surgery and until I woke up and Recovery that way she could document everything that went on. When I had the other side done it was the same way. I believe they really try to cover their butt in this day and age


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

They have gotten much better, but certainly not perfect....most of the time it's careless mistakes and poor infectious diseases protocol. When you look at some of the subordinates they hire, it's easy to understand why.......all about the bottom line.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Lawsuits as they are now just add cost because payouts dont change anything but the bottom line...adding cost which gets passed on to the customer like every business. If you want to change something, then the doctor’s license to practice medicine must be at risk...not just his malpractice insurance. Thats when true accountability will be seen.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

KYhaymaker said:


> Lawsuits as they are now just add cost because payouts dont change anything but the bottom line...adding cost which gets passed on to the customer like every business. If you want to change something, then the doctor's license to practice medicine must be at risk...not just his malpractice insurance. Thats when true accountability will be seen.


Can't disagree with your assessment...however, with the buyouts and the overreach by the hospitals and such, it's all profit driven.....a lot of times the surgeon may be faced with a backlog of patients and a shortage of available surgical help in favor of less qualified help, relying heavily on cheaper labor to increase the bottom line. In that case, it may be the hospital that has created the problem....not the surgeon. In today's time, the actual M.D. Is further out of the loop of patient care.....

I'll give a recent example.......I have a friend that is two years younger than I, he's 55......healthy guy. His long time MD retires and hands him off to the new MD that's replacing him, now part of a big hospital outfit, no longer an independent. The new guy wants a complete work-up on my friend....because he's basically a "new" patient, although he had all of his medical records from the previous M.D. My buddy does the tests and low and behold, he now has high blood pressure and high cholesterol.....my buddy is stunned but figures "hell, I guess that's confirmation, I'm gettin old  " so he started taking the meds issued to him and within a month he's not feeling well at all. One weekend he's at a horse show in Dothan Al. And he crashes, body just gives out.....take him to the emergency room, can't figure out what the hell is wrong, vitals are falling.....they finally stabilize him after 5 days in the hospital. Then they tell him that they suspect cancer.....he comes back to a oncologist in his hometown. During that time, they are taking blood every two days trying to find out what's going on......he's looking over his medical records and realizes that the birthday is wrong . So he calls the office of the new Doctor, apparently, his results weren't his at all, it was a data input error and he had been being treated for high blood pressure and high cholesterol and taken off of some meds that he needed......once he realized what was happening, it was corrected and he fully recovered. But it wasn't really the M.D. Fault, it was a staff that was either overburdened or incompetent. 
He said he wasn't going to sue. I would sue their ass....not only did he have to endure pain and suffering, he was financially affected by losing work and paying deductables.....but, to your earlier statement, they just file it with insurance, nothing will ever come of it in the long run to help patient care if someone else is paying the tab.....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

As I approached my mid 40's, I kept getting solicitations to make sure I get a prostate exam. Basically, the list of "symptoms" they list are ones anyone could have. I was feeling fine, but had frequent trips to the bathroom during the day. So I went with one of the ones sending me mailers and within 2 visits, he was giving me a catheter to look at my bladder and all sorts of uncomfortable tests.

This "doctor" had me pretty convinced I had prostate cancer and wanted me to take more serious test, a prostate biopsy.

In a state of shock, I drove home and explained what was going on to my wife. I kind of took stock of things, had 2 little kids at the time and kept thinking this didnt feel right.

Called my old trusty GP doctor and explained to him what had happened. He asked me who I went to see and a sort of grin of disbelief came over his face. He gave me the name of a reputable prostate doc. I went to his office maybe a week later (living my life scared shitless for a week aint much fun).

Anyway, I go to the trusted doctor and he does an exam, gets my PSA results and some other basic tests. He comes into the exam room and says "I see you've been to doctor _______" I said yeah I did. He said to me, "you dont have prostate cancer". You were scared into believing you might have it so he could perform a $20,000 proceedure on you so he could buy an even bigger Mercedes". I couldnt believe what I was hearing. I was always told doctors never talk bad about each other. But needless to say, I was relieved.

So that was 10 years ago. I feel fine and my PSA tests have been OK (knock on wood). The prostate doctor that sent me the colored brochure in the mail is gone. He left town quietly.

Do your homework, ask questions, and understand the human emotion of greed, which permeates all walks of life, even seemingly "well-meaning" doctors. The ones who took the hypocratic oath.

On Edit: My GP doctor, who was a fantastic human being died on the job in 2016. He was flat broke. He fell and broke his hip years before and never had his hip fixed because he wouldnt be able to serve his patients. His son started a "fund me" page. They had to borrow money to pay for his funeral expenses. I contributed to him to help pay his funeral expenses. I talked to his wife and by the time he died, they had to sell their house and rent an apartment to pay his doctors office rent and expenses. He made almost no money in the last 5 years of his life, yet he continued to serve me and his other patients.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> The problem is with a huge malpractice lawsuit is that the dr doesn't pay it the insurance co does and then we all pay higher hospital rates because their insurance premiums went up.
> 
> El drunko Dr who screwed up goes on doing what he does maybe at another hospital.


Had a doctor who 'practiced' (using that term rather loosely), in my office complex, he was an OB/GYN, was still 'practicing' in his late 70's, early 80's. He took almost only Medicaid patients, had NO insurance (either couldn't get or couldn't afford, after 5 divorces). Guess what finally pushed him out of business.................... no hospital would allow him to do surgery any more. :huh: He tried working with other doctors to re-establish his surgical credentials with no luck (he could hardly even walk on his own, his hands shanked, like he had Parkinson's).

Who know how many 'screw up' he had, before loosing his surgery privileges and with no insurance, my guess is the taxpayers are paying something, something.

I believe one major difference between the US and Canada/European court system, is that the punitive damages all go to the government (not the individual/attorney as in the US). I seen punitive damages 10s if not 100s of times larger than the pain/suffering/loss of life/body parts damages.

Larry


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Surgeon in my hometown nearly killed my dad, punctured his bowel in three places, sewed him up that way. After a week I went in and told the surgeon and the hospital that he was leaving with me, that they were killing him. When the surgeon protested I told her it wasnt a request, he was leaving with me that very day. I took him to a major hospital half hour a way were they figured things out. I tried to get my parents to sue but they wouldnt. Since found out that several people I know have been hurt by her, yet nothing ever happens.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Only thing the local hospital is good for here is to stabilize you and get you on a chopper to Sioux Falls.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Alright! That should be about enough of the medical debates your scaring the shit out of me! Lets talk about a decent 4x4 or 4x5 net wrapping round balers PLEASE.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Had a discussion with my biggest "mulch king" hay buyer today. He suggested I stay with a round baler rather than trade it in on big square or at least keep it along with a square baler. We talked about all the rain we had this year and how much longer round bales "keep" outside compared to big squares. I told him I wasn't exactly thrilled with the prospect of pulling huge tarps on hay stacks, either- I ain't gettin any younger. He went on to tell me he buys 3,000 4x6 RB's @ 1,000lb/ea from a guy in Maryland.

This year we had so much rain. A buddy of mine that makes 3x4's has stacks that look really bad. Round bales seem to be the ticket if its a bad weather year and/or you're challenged for indoor storage.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

It's really hard to beat round bales for low cost per ton all around.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> This year we had so much rain. A buddy of mine that makes 3x4's has stacks that look really bad. Round bales seem to be the ticket if its a bad weather year and/or you're challenged for indoor storage.


That's why round bales became so popular, you don't have to have them under cover. That being said, a round bale under cover is worth 10X what a round bale outside is worth if covered in twine, mesh is a bit of a different story. But also remember that you can store somewhere in the neighborhood of 23% (?)more hay in the same size building with large squares versus round bales.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Vets VS docs.

Vets even if they specialize in small animals still has to know a ton about each. Also a vet can't ask their patient when didi it start to hurt, does this or that make it worse, etc.

Wife's last open heart surgery cost $140,00 and some change. That was in 2010. My knee repair was "only" around 8K unless I never seen all the bills. Took 26 minutes to complete.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

stack em up said:


> That's why round bales became so popular, you don't have to have them under cover. That being said, a round bale under cover is worth 10X what a round bale outside is worth if covered in twine, mesh is a bit of a different story. But also remember that you can store somewhere in the neighborhood of 23% (?)more hay in the same size building with large squares versus round bales.


Why are you guys talking about round bales in the round bale thread.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

To be fair, round bales will lose value over time, if stored outside. That loss depends on the kind of hay that's inside those bales. Fine stemmed stuff lasts longer than coarse stemmed stuff.

I generally see from 4-6" loss a year around the perimeter, if it's a wet year. That's on a tight twine tied bale. I've never rolled net wrap bales, and the ones I've had to buy are generally fed the Winter I had to buy them, so I don't know what the loss is.

Every inch you lose from the outside diameter is a LOT. Most of the hay is on the outside diameter, not in the middle. I love it, when buying year old hay (which I'm prone to do), and the dood pulls out a handful from the middle, and shows me the nice green hay.

Well ya!!!! It's still nice and green in the middle...&#8230;&#8230;..but that 4 x 5.5 bale, after a year in the weather, is really a 4 x 5 now. AND THAT'S NOT COUNTING THE ,MOISTURE DAMAGE ON THE BOTTOM OF THE BALE. So, my friend...&#8230;&#8230;.your $45 bale has turned into a $15-$20 bale. And, that's what I'm willing to pay for the ones YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOAD ON THE TRAILER WITHOUT THE BOTTOM FALLING OFF IN THE DIRT. And I don't feel that I'm being a jerk. I've been on both sides of the deal...&#8230;&#8230;.buyer, and seller.

The worst hay sellers are the ones that have never actually fed hay. They need to see the other side of the coin.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

While we're on the subject of selling, and value...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.

Worst thing that 's ever happened to the market for anything (hay cars boats houses etc) is the internet.

Everybody looks up the price of what they wanna sell, and settles on the highest price they find.

"Well Hell, my 1964 Dodge pickup must be worth what I see on the net"

Doesn't matter that that pickup has more value in the price of rat meat that can be harvested from under the hood, where they covered it in nests.

It's like Fastline&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;..they publish the sale price on tractors, and other equipment. So now, you, as a buyer, expect to pay that price. YOU weren't there when that stuff sold.....YOU didn't see the condition. It's like the Blue Book...&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.it's published by DEALERS AND AUCTIONEERS. (I guess it's still a book, I'm a bit behind the times)

Price of anything ought to be established on the spot, by the seller and buyer. We all go around these days thinking we're "informed"...&#8230;&#8230;..gotta ask yourself just where that "information" came from. Consequently, everybody thinks they're getting screwed if the price ain't the ideal price they saw on the internet. And sellers have un-realistic expectations of what they ought to get.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> To be fair, round bales will lose value over time, if stored outside. That loss depends on the kind of hay that's inside those bales. Fine stemmed stuff lasts longer than coarse stemmed stuff.
> 
> I generally see from 4-6" loss a year around the perimeter, if it's a wet year. That's on a tight twine tied bale. I've never rolled net wrap bales, and the ones I've had to buy are generally fed the Winter I had to buy them, so I don't know what the loss is.
> 
> ...


That is the reason why 4 foot balers in my opinion are not popular in my area. The bigger the bale the more inside the bale that is still good. If you can make good shaped tight 5x6 bale (i can only make 5x5.5) and get them tight when stacking the ends stay nice plus the ends are still so tight you cant even get a finger in to the first knuckle. And with net after 1 year you loose about 1-2 inches of the diameter. 
I have a hay pen that is on a natural gravel hill with a good slope. In that hay pen it really is an eye opener to see how little of bottom loss there is on a bale even after 2 or 3 years. 
I made some bales that very little of the bottom is touching the ground becuase they were so tight i would be willing to bet by next year the top and bottom of that bale will be pretty simular in loss. 
Gravel in that hay pen is big 2-5inch gravel. Very very well drained. I should really put gravel like that down everywhere i stack hay i am sure it would pay for itself.

In a perfect world we would never have to feed hay. Well this world isnt perfect and you cant expect outside hay to stay perfect. But well stacked hay on a good location outside the hay stays pretty good for quite some time. Another thibg about gravel is the grass does not grow around the hay and thay helps the bottoms of the bale too.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When I deliver my mulch king bales, they are immediately sawed in half after pulling off net wrap. The bale falls open and you can see inside the bale.
I am shocked to see how nice the hay looks. 
I was forced by bad weather to make 100's of 25% bales and they sat outside with grass and weeds growing out of them. Once cut open, they looked really nice inside. No mold, very little dust and as Stx pecans said, beyond the 2-3" on the outside they look excellent.

I'm kind of at the point where I'm making as many round bales as one person working almost always alone can make & need to find a way to make more hay to make more money. Its either hire someone, or go to a larger square baler or find more shelter to keep bales in to sell more round bales for feed hay. All those options cost a ton of money.

If there was a way to bale dry hay and wrap it so it stays that way, it would be a game changer. I thought maybe Deere was onto something with the wrap they had....


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Hay does look a lot nicer inside the bale vs the outide, however that is with hay that was baled dry. I have never made 25% hay that looked good deep in the bale. Normally the further in u go the less it can breathe and the more it heats and molds.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

PaMike said:


> Hay does look a lot nicer inside the bale vs the outide, however that is with hay that was baled dry. I have never made 25% hay that looked good deep in the bale. Normally the further in u go the less it can breathe and the more it heats and molds.


I will try to take some pics. I'm beginning to think my harvest Tec reads higher than actual moisture.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

I envy you round bale folks on years like we just had! All I do is ss bales and sell and feed! 
I have a small herd of Herefords and now 2 horses also! 
So anyone that buys hay from me knows I feed it to my own critters and I can show them what they are getting instantly. 
BUT I hate wasting good squares to the beef when they will eat just about anything, so I now want to find me a decent small round baler and wrapper to make something out of nothing per-say.. ifn' I can bale and wrap at 50% moisture I could have made probably 50-60 tons more hay that I could feed out.. DANG IT! 
So who make a good easy rookie tested net wrapping round baler and a good inexpensive wrapper that will actually work?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Probably be a lot more cost effective hiring it done.It will take a better baler then something that is just good enough to bale dry hay compared to baleing something at 50%

Maybe buy a single wrapper so you have that part covered.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Can you actually bale at 50%? I don't know anything about haylage, but looked up on the net, and it's somewhere around 40% if the info is correct.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

farmersamm said:


> Can you actually bale at 50%? I don't know anything about haylage, but looked up on the net, and it's somewhere around 40% if the info is correct.


Typically baled at 40-60%


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Wow. I've never really paid attention to it. I think I've seen it maybe. Plastic sheet wrapped bales? Assumed that's what it was.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

farmersamm said:


> Wow. I've never really paid attention to it. I think I've seen it maybe. Plastic sheet wrapped bales? Assumed that's what it was.


They use bale film to wrap the bale after its baled useing a bale wrapped putting 6-8 wraps of the film on.Useing either a individual wrapper or inline wrapper.Pretty common for dairy hay and getting more common all the time.Used more where it's harder to get the hay dry in NC and NE US


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> Wtf does it matter? You're dead, your problems are over.


That's an offensively oversimplistic way of looking at it. When my dad was on the recovery table and suddenly started dying after his complaints were ignored, we had to wonder why and how they could have let this happen. And guess what, his problems weren't over because there's now 8 of us kids and his wife that no longer have a husband and a dad. Ask any of us and we'll tell you it matters a lot.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Oops I see we got back to round bales.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

PA Mike
Sawed open 25% round bales


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> PA Mike
> Sawed open 25% round bales


I have feed bales that my meter said were 40% moisture. Looked just like the day they were baled nice and green. Have also feed bales that showed 18% moisture. Dusty, moldy smelly mess. All bales feed over winter and baled in July. Sometimes it doesn't make sense.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

hog987 said:


> I have feed bales that my meter said were 40% moisture. Looked just like the day they were baled nice and green. Have also feed bales that showed 18% moisture. Dusty, moldy smelly mess. All bales feed over winter and baled in July. Sometimes it doesn't make sense.


Hear that.
I have beautiful green reeds canary 25-30% moisture bales I made about 1 month ago. All bales tested numerous times for temperature. They barely heated. No "blob" look to them, either. 
I dont get it.
Seems like time of year they're baled might be a factor


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> That's an offensively oversimplistic way of looking at it. When my dad was on the recovery table and suddenly started dying after his complaints were ignored, we had to wonder why and how they could have let this happen. And guess what, his problems weren't over because there's now 8 of us kids and his wife that no longer have a father and a dad. Ask any of us and we'll tell you it matters a lot.


But his problems are over. Yours are not. He is in a much better place than we all are. I know it's not much consolation.

I was on the operating table for 8 hours August 30, fixed my back, had brain surgery to relieve the pressure on my brain. I coded 2 times while on the table. I don't know the stress of having someone laying there though and the worries that go with it.


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