# Mower conditioners.....again



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm back to looking at mower conditioners again since the NH 499 I bought this past spring didn't work out as I hoped. This time I am going to buy a disc mower conditioner like I should have done last spring. The JD 946 and MF/Hesston 1383 are still my two favorites but I'm having a hard time deciding which I like better......particularly the cutter bar and conditioning rolls.

Anyone have any experience with the JD tri lobe rolls? Supposedly they are the best for drying alfalfa the quickest but I have read that they don't work well in grass and other crops. I need to get alfalfa dry as quick as possible but I also grow grass and oat hay so I need something that will work in those crops as well. What about the JD v10 steel rolls? The steel rolls in the MF/Hesston look the same as the JD v10 so I assume dry down would be about the same between those two.

Also any opinions on the JD vs Hesston cutter bar? I am pretty sure both use the same cutter bar that is in the self propelled machines. Im kind of particular so getting as clean of a cut as possible is important. I find it interesting that the Hesston uses a cutter bar that each disc turns opposite the next but the JD discs all turn to the center of the machine. What advantage does one have over the other?


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

I would look at Kuhn too. They have steel rollers now. What ever you get make sure it has a swivel hitch gearbox. Their 2 point Gyrodine hitch is great.

http://www.kuhnnorthamerica.com/us/range/hay-and-forage-tools/mower-conditioners/fc-3160-tls.html


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

In regards to your question about the direction of the discs. The 1360 turn toward each other and the 630 throw it to the center. Running them side by side in the same field I have found that the 630 has a fluffier and more even windrow. In smaller yields you can make out 3 distinct rows in the windrow with the 1360.


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

I bought a new 2016 MF/Hesston 1363 mower conditioner with steel conditioner rollers. I cut several alfalfa fields each year. The razorbar cutter is very heavy duty. i have always had very good luck with Hesston cutters. So far the mower conditioner has performed flawlessly. It is made very well and leaves you a very clean cut, It crimps the alfalfa stems better than mower conditioners that I have used with rubber rollers. One thing I have noticed, is that the steel rollers are louder than a rubber roller conditioner.

The only difference in equipment brands, is how it sold and supported.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

I have owned machines with both the Tri lobe and the v10 conditioners and the Tri lobes were horrible here although I have no alfalfa. I've been told that's where they shine but that's about all they are good for, I much preferred the v10 for a better crimp and also ease of crop feeding. On the cutter bar you can change the direction of any of the disc in about 5 minutes by flipping the gear around on the Deere machine. Never owned a hesston but if I ever do buy another new or newer windrower it will be one of them because I really like the way their cutter head is designed.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> I have owned machines with both the Tri lobe and the v10 conditioners and the Tri lobes were horrible here although I have no alfalfa. I've been told that's where they shine but that's about all they are good for, I much preferred the v10 for a better crimp and also ease of crop feeding. On the cutter bar you can change the direction of any of the disc in about 5 minutes by flipping the gear around on the Deere machine. Never owned a hesston but if I ever do buy another new or newer windrower it will be one of them because I really like the way their cutter head is designed.


 That's what I had heard as well that the tri lobes were only good for alfalfa. What problems did you have with the tri lobes? Sounds like you are currently running a Deere.....what do you like better about the Hesston cutter head?


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Currently running a newholland which I hate with a passion but that's another story. The way the Heston controlled pressure on the crimpers I really liked and the simplicity in the back side of the head. The tri lobes had trouble feeding heavy crops as there is nothing on them to grab hold of the crop and pull it through.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Part of the reason for having the discs turn in opposite directions is to make it a little easier to time them. As the blades sweep past the neighboring disc, they are moving in the same direction as the neighbor. When two disc spin in the same direction, the timing of them becomes a little more critical so that you don't have the blades making contact. As the gears in the cutterbar wear, you'll see less and less clearance between the blades.


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

IH 1586 said:


> In regards to your question about the direction of the discs. The 1360 turn toward each other and the 630 throw it to the center. Running them side by side in the same field I have found that the 630 has a fluffier and more even windrow. In smaller yields you can make out 3 distinct rows in the windrow with the 1360.


I have a different take on the discs running the same direction. While the 630 may leave a more consistently shaped windrow, I think that that may be a disadvantage, if the inproved windrow comes from a feature that is before the conditioning rolls. In other words I would rather have a cutterbar that delivers crop distributed evenly to the rolls vs. one that the majority is fed to the center. Leave the windrow formation to a feature after the conditioning rolls.

Not sure how much difference flow through the rolls makes but I would think being fed through in multiple places would increase contact with the conditioning rolls.

I have a JD 730 (discs turn same direction) and have noticed in thin hay that it makes a consistent but NARROW windrow even when I have the forming shields set to try to make a wide spread out windrow. I also see knives, knife hardware, and "turtle shells" wear out faster in the middle of the cutterbar.

After having one (for 12+ years) that all the discs spin toward the center I will be looking for one that spins opposite soon.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

JMT said:


> I have a different take on the discs running the same direction. While the 630 may leave a more consistently shaped windrow, I think that that may be a disadvantage, if the inproved windrow comes from a feature that is before the conditioning rolls. In other words I would rather have a cutterbar that delivers crop distributed evenly to the rolls vs. one that the majority is fed to the center. Leave the windrow formation to a feature after the conditioning rolls.
> 
> Not sure how much difference flow through the rolls makes but I would think being fed through in multiple places would increase contact with the conditioning rolls.
> 
> ...


I can see what your saying, however with them running side by side in lighter yields I can see the difference and what comes out of the 630 does dry slightly better because its spread out better than the 1360 even if slightly narrower as you say and I do notice that but still wider than 1360. I believe you get a little better conditioning on the 630 due to the fact the the hay is getting thrown around more than on the 1360.

As for wear I have not had the 630 long enough to compare that aspect.

On a different thread had posted a link to a macdon mower that you can change the direction of the discs to 4 different configurations I believe.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

This may not be a lot of help, but last year my brother went from a New Holland 14' sickle machine to a Massey with the Razor bar and double steel conditioning rolls. So far we like the Massey.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> I'm back to looking at mower conditioners again since the NH 499 I bought this past spring didn't work out as I hoped. This time I am going to buy a disc mower conditioner like I should have done last spring. The JD 946 and MF/Hesston 1383 are still my two favorites but I'm having a hard time deciding which I like better......particularly the cutter bar and conditioning rolls.
> 
> Anyone have any experience with the JD tri lobe rolls? Supposedly they are the best for drying alfalfa the quickest but I have read that they don't work well in grass and other crops. I need to get alfalfa dry as quick as possible but I also grow grass and oat hay so I need something that will work in those crops as well. What about the JD v10 steel rolls? The steel rolls in the MF/Hesston look the same as the JD v10 so I assume dry down would be about the same between those two.
> 
> Also any opinions on the JD vs Hesston cutter bar? I am pretty sure both use the same cutter bar that is in the self propelled machines. Im kind of particular so getting as clean of a cut as possible is important. I find it interesting that the Hesston uses a cutter bar that each disc turns opposite the next but the JD discs all turn to the center of the machine. What advantage does one have over the other?


Again - I don't know nothin'......

IMHO - the rotation of the cutter heads on the cutterbar mean nothing on any brand. When I look at youtube videos of these disc mower conditioners, they all look like they give a very clean cut and I see no problems with any of them in heavy hay - very clean cuts.

Where I read of problems with a clean cut is lighter cuttings and roller machines. From what I can glean, the fix for that is slowing the rpms to reduce the air curtain created by the rollers. I like the Hesston and JD V10 steel rollers and agree they look alike - as do the New Holland steel rollers. The roller profile on my old Hesston sickle mower conditioner kind of sort of resemble the steel rollers in how they inter-mesh. They are different than the New Holland rubber rollers in that these steel on rubber rollers crimp - but they do not necessarily crush and crimp like the NH rubber rollers.

For whatever reason, I have the idea that the stem is the enemy when it comes to dry down in the first place and my crimping only Hesston rollers seem to do a number on the stem and pretty much, given the space between the peak/valley of the rollers, leave the leaf alone. The dry down on my timothy last year was incredible. Here is a pic of my Hesston roller profile as they intermesh:









I also have to believe the steel on steel rollers do a good job of grabbing the hay and pulling it through the rollers with such a deep inter-mesh. What I really like with the steel on steel rollers is zero delaminating rubber and have to should think they are good on both grass and alfalfa - where again, the stem is the "enemy" with their crimping action. Then there is the shear force of crushing vs crimping. Doesn't take much IMHO to snap a stem of grass (or pencil), crushing one IMHO requires some extreme pressures and tolerances, i.e. JD's trilobe rollers or the Circle-C rollers. I wonder the additional wear and tear and longevity of crushing type rollers on a mower conditioner. Maybe not a problem with high volume producers that trade every 4 or 5ish years; with us - the mower conditioner purchase is a long term investment, so potential wear and tear are on our radar, just like volume of units sold (read spare parts and internet trouble shooting support long after the sale).

Having said that - I also have a high confidence in impellers too, based on what I've read - there just to many (IMHO) positive reviews of impeller machines to paint with a broad brush that impellers are not good - even for legumes. I feel impellers are the ultimate in durability and simplicity. Run a big rock or piece of wood through an impeller, what's there to damage? I've read that impellers can digest more hay volume than rollers too - so if moving through a heavy field of hay without clogging is the goal, maybe impellers might be a consideration. Ease of repair, no timing (the pic is from when I set the roller gap and inter-meshing timing on my Hesston rollers) to fool with. Break an impeller, at least on the JD, is a very simple fix. One thing that especially has my attention on impeller machines is second, third cuttings of grass hay where a stem isn't necessarily an issue. The idea that an impeller could scuff the later cutting grass blades and accelerate dry down - where a roller machine might not have much of an impact - IMHO has merit. I think about how fine a grass that Teff is and how hard it is to dry down. Perhaps an impeller machine might make Teff and easier crop to condition just because of the scrubbing action of the impellers and conditioning hood. Also, from what I read, there is no air curtain from the impellers to blow down thinner second, third cutting grass hay crops as can happen with rollers. I gather with impellers, on these later cuttings, one can mow full throttle and full ground speed as the terrain allows and still get a very clean cut.

Back to the Hesston/JD.....

I don't recall how tall the disc module stack-up is on the Hesston models, but from everything I read, the Hesston cutter bar sounds like they are top notch and very heavy duty. What scares me is lack of shear protection, quantity in units sold (read online help and spare parts down the road).

The JD cutterbar IMHO is very low profile. I like the segmented sections, parts availability. They have a shear hub protection and the whole machine is big and heavy IMHO. Every video I've seen of the JD disc moco's appear that they give a very clean cut. Common oil sump doesn't concern me, but the ability to change out individual modules gives me peace of mind - if/when I hit/damage the moco or detect a bearing going bad on one of the spur gears. One fitting to drain the oil, one fitting to fill/check the oil - if I recall correctly. The manual for the JD moco's are online for free viewing/reading if you want to see the inter-workings/set-up of the machine. The JD can cut (may require a high shoe kit) to over 6 inches if desired, not sure what the max height the MF/Hesston can cut.

My GUESS is you won't go wrong with either machine.

Good luck,

Bill


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Gearclash said:


> This may not be a lot of help, but last year my brother went from a New Holland 14' sickle machine to a Massey with the Razor bar and double steel conditioning rolls. So far we like the Massey.


 If the pull type MF/Hesston mowers were available with the double conditioner that would most likely be the way I would go without a doubt. I guess the added power requirements to run another set of rollers is why they don't offer it in a pull type.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Before I forget - Agco's brand Challenger offers the same 1383 in red (vs yellow paint) and Challenger stickers. Perhaps a Challenger dealer might have a better deal than the MF dealer.

Here is a YouTube video:


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

leeave96 said:


> Again - I don't know nothin'......
> 
> IMHO - the rotation of the cutter heads on the cutterbar mean nothing on any brand. When I look at youtube videos of these disc mower conditioners, they all look like they give a very clean cut and I see no problems with any of them in heavy hay - very clean cuts.
> 
> ...


 The new Hesston cutter bar is a modular bar with a common sump just like the JD and is also very low profile. The Hesston does have shear protection but is not an actual shear hub like the JD.....I think it involves changing a gear so the repair is a little more involved than the JD but this doesn't concern me that much as I don't cut unfamiliar fields so the event that I hit something that would shear it would be rare.

One feature that I like better about the JD is they use an adjustable height skid shoe where the height setting is independent from the tilt of the cutter bar while it appears that the Hesston has fixed height skid shoes and the cutting height is controlled by the tilt of the cutter bar. Both offer high stubble shoes if needed.

Im defiantly going to stick with rolls rather than flails. Seems flails are the best for grass but while they can be used for alfalfa they aren't quite as good as rolls. My take on it is that for me alfalfa is the most difficult thing to get dry so I want to use what will dry alfalfa the quickest while still being able to work on grass type hay.


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## Joseph K (Feb 20, 2014)

For what it's worth I just finished my first year of running my new 1383 and absolutely love it. I have had no trouble so far whatsoever, though it really only saw about 400 acres last year so no surprise there. When I purchased mine one of my lingering concerns was about getting a clean cut because I had been told repeatedly about having to keep up ground speed and needing pretty thick hay etc. My experience so far is that if I reduce my ground speed significantly or get into really thin spots I do see it suffer a little, but not drastically. Even using it to open fields up on corrugated fields for irrigation where I can only go about 2 mph across the creases it still did a pretty good job which honestly surprised me, and while these hay stands aren't bad, they are starting to get a little older and thin out. I'm running mine at about 6 mph on average and it would love to go faster but my runs are too short so going into another gear range and adding shifting at the ends would be counterproductive for me. Only drawback for me so far is turning around takes some getting used to, I'm cutting five rows around the edges for my headlands. (I can do it in 4 but I don't like the mower that close to my duals if I can help it.) At six mph I feel like It's got enough groundspeed that it's leaving me a pretty good clean cut. One of the things I've been told as far as the blades spinning opposite directions was that in theory this would keep the wind created from sort of lodging the hay over in one direction, which would contribute to a cleaner cut than mowers where the blades all spin in the same direction. I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to this, or if it's just made up but that's what I've been told. I chose the steel rollers in mine and love them, but this next year will be the first year I do any grass, I've only used it on alfalfa thus far. When I was searching I felt like both the Deere's and the Massey's were good enough machines that it was sort of 6 one way, half dozen the other, I chose Massey eventually because I got a little better deal. I will say, this 1383 really likes horsepower, I'm running it behind a 7810, which is a little excessive, but I don't think I would want much less. It doesn't seem to take a ton of power to keep it spinning, but getting it started is no joke, they're not kidding about their horsepower requirements.

Good Luck, I don't think you'll be disappointed either way

Joe


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Joseph K said:


> For what it's worth I just finished my first year of running my new 1383 and absolutely love it. I have had no trouble so far whatsoever, though it really only saw about 400 acres last year so no surprise there. When I purchased mine one of my lingering concerns was about getting a clean cut because I had been told repeatedly about having to keep up ground speed and needing pretty thick hay etc. My experience so far is that if I reduce my ground speed significantly or get into really thin spots I do see it suffer a little, but not drastically. Even using it to open fields up on corrugated fields for irrigation where I can only go about 2 mph across the creases it still did a pretty good job which honestly surprised me, and while these hay stands aren't bad, they are starting to get a little older and thin out. I'm running mine at about 6 mph on average and it would love to go faster but my runs are too short so going into another gear range and adding shifting at the ends would be counterproductive for me. Only drawback for me so far is turning around takes some getting used to, I'm cutting five rows around the edges for my headlands. (I can do it in 4 but I don't like the mower that close to my duals if I can help it.) At six mph I feel like It's got enough groundspeed that it's leaving me a pretty good clean cut. One of the things I've been told as far as the blades spinning opposite directions was that in theory this would keep the wind created from sort of lodging the hay over in one direction, which would contribute to a cleaner cut than mowers where the blades all spin in the same direction. I have absolutely no idea if there is any truth to this, or if it's just made up but that's what I've been told. I chose the steel rollers in mine and love them, but this next year will be the first year I do any grass, I've only used it on alfalfa thus far. When I was searching I felt like both the Deere's and the Massey's were good enough machines that it was sort of 6 one way, half dozen the other, I chose Massey eventually because I got a little better deal. I will say, this 1383 really likes horsepower, I'm running it behind a 7810, which is a little excessive, but I don't think I would want much less. It doesn't seem to take a ton of power to keep it spinning, but getting it started is no joke, they're not kidding about their horsepower requirements.
> 
> Good Luck, I don't think you'll be disappointed either way
> Joe


 Good info, thanks. I have heard that the JD 946 is a very heavy machine and takes more horsepower than other brands but I looked up the weight and it is only a couple hundred more than the MF 1383 so I wouldn't think there would be much difference. I plan on running it with a JD 7510 so either way I should be fine.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Good info, thanks. I have heard that the JD 946 is a very heavy machine and takes more horsepower than other brands but I looked up the weight and it is only a couple hundred more than the MF 1383 so I wouldn't think there would be much difference. I plan on running it with a JD 7510 so either way I should be fine.


946 on 7510 is a near perfect combination. Our back tires are watered down and it handled it great.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> 946 on 7510 is a near perfect combination. Our back tires are watered down and it handled it great.


 Did you like the 946? Any problems?


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

They are great machines never had any trouble, ran two for several years mowed lots of hay.


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