# Any advice?



## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Ok, so I've posted a few topics on here already for buying hay, hauling it, and so forth. I'm sorry if I am getting annoying for posting so much-- Just want to learn as much I can about hay. With that said, I am wanting to plant some Bermuda grass hay for one of my horse pastures. I thought it would be wise to do, so I can save a little money. So, I have a few questions that I would like to know. #1 I have two bags of Bermuda Grass Blend( blend meaning growing it with something else), that I'm trying to figure out if I should plant in my pasture. I live in Northern CA so right one it's getting close to the cold season, so I would plant the seed in late spring of next year. I wanting to know if I should buy Mohawk instead of common Bermuda seed. With the Bermuda blend does that mean I HAVE to plant it with something else? If so, any suggestions?
#2 Can I spread horse manure on the pasture to add a fertilizer?
#3 What should I do within the time period to get it ready for next Springs planting of it?

Any advice on this would be a huge help! Thanks!


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Even though I know nothing about your region or climate, I'll take a stab at this simply because I've learned a little bit about Bermuda. I haven't ever tried any Mohawk, but strongly considered it one one point. If memerory serves me correctly, it's mostly a warm area Bermuda. From anecdotal info I received from local guys, it slowly declines as the years pass, to be taken over with mostly common bermuda. Not really a bad thing, but not what I was looking for. If grazing pressure is not heavy I'd be inclined to stick with common bermuda. It's easier and cheaper to establish, is more drought and pest tolerant and has a very fine stem which horses and cattle like. Treated much like the hybrid varieties with regards to fertilizer and nutrition, it will surprise you with the tonnage it will produce. If I was going to plant seed versus sprigging, my second choice would be one of the Cheyenne varieties, but good luck finding the seed!  We also produce some sprigged hybrids, and they are several more in our area, most of which are NOT cold tolerant. My favorite for horses (and also most of my customers favorite) is Alecia. I have no idea of what the cold tolerance is.

To answer one of your question, no, you do not have to plant something else with it. I'm not a cattle guy, and presently raise no livestock except for stuff for our freezer, but I will say this from past experience. The more variety that you can include in your proposed pasture, the better it will serve you down the road. Many grasses and legumes are somewhat compatible and to some extent symbyotic. Take advantage of that and your life is less stressful down the road. Many cattlemen I know welcome a lot of things in their pastures that I, as a hay producer, spend a LOT of money every year trying to kill! :lol: I've seen horse and cows eat some weeds and stuff that make some of their owners cringe, but the animals seem to thrive on them. I kinda beleive they know what they need if given a choice. Just my $.02

Best of luck!

Steve


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Good to hear from you dubltrubl! Hope La had better hay makin weather than Ga this year.....been tough. 
Buckaroo, give us a better idea of locale, very few Bermudas are cold tolerant, the climate in southern Ca is vastly different than the northern section......


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Northern as in Redding, Red Bluff, or the southern definition of Modesto being Northern?


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

somedevildawg said:


> Good to hear from you dubltrubl! Hope La had better hay makin weather than Ga this year.....been tough.
> Buckaroo, give us a better idea of locale, very few Bermudas are cold tolerant, the climate in southern Ca is vastly different than the northern section......


Hey there dawg! Been a while since I've posted, but I've been lurking as time allows. Between my part time job that is my occupation, and my fulltime job which is makin hay, things have been pretty busy on our end.  I can honestly say I can't remember a hay season this weird. 3 days of sun, the 2 days of rain seems to be the pattern here. Makes it hard to put up good hay! We're so far behind now it ain't funny.

A few plusses, and few minusses though this season. Minusses, several un-expected breakdowns. (drum cutter crashed, bearings on round baler nearly set it on fire, front wheel hub on the loader tractor failed and dropped the front end in the field with a RB on the spike), Weather has been enormously frustrating. Forecast calls for 20% (which is about as good of haymaking weather as you can get in LA) and it rains 1"-2". Forecast predicts 50%-60% and we don't get a drop. Army worms to beat the band and I've just finished my 3rd weedspraying of the year. We usually only do a 3rd application in very late summer or early fall if it looks like we'll get a bonus 4th cutting. I got round bales out the wa- zoo and they aren't moving much yet, and very few square up to now with more demand for squares than I've seen in a long time. Just a crazy, topsy-turvy year all around. Go figure.

Plusses, got a new barn up and almost running now. 60' X 80' X 12' walls. Now I can get my workshop back! Moved into the new house we built, WHEW! Now I've made my wife happy. When she caught me looking at new cab tractors last year she plainy told me, "Darlin, I love ya, but if you show up on this place with one more piece of farm equipment before I get my new house, I'll make a steer out of ya!" Over the years I've grown fond of my testicles, plus she was serious! WHEW! again! And we got the local feed store account in town now for squares. Nice account and stable, if I could just make some more squares now,,hmmmmm.

Anyway, I can understand perfectly about it bein a tough season. And thanks for askin. I hope your hay season ends well by winter. Looks like we may be in for a tough winter too 

Be well, and stay safe.

Regards,

Steve


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

The climate over here is really hot in the summer( 100' or more) and pretty cold in the fall and winter( 40-60'). In the winter it often freezes up everything. I'm near Sacramento so, you might know how it is over here. When you say a more variety of things, do you mean like adding in other things with Bermuda?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks for the laugh. "Pretty cold in the winter. 40-60"

Pretty cold here might end up -60. -20 to -30 is a common January or February morning.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

I second the laugh part. It is 49 Deg F as I type this. Of course I am in N.D. at the moment.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

C'mon guys....it gets to 30-40 around here too....not fit for man or beast!

Shouldn't have a problem with Bermuda in that case buckaroo....


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Buckaroo said:


> When you say a more variety of things, do you mean like adding in other things with Bermuda?


Maybe, it just depends on what you want I guess. Some people in these parts like a bermuda/bahaia mixed pasture. Many folks here plant clover in there pastures and routinely add rye grass as winter approaches. The clover gives them a good forage crop for late winter/early spring until the bermuda revives from dormancy. The ryegrass takes them from late fall to late winter until the clover comes on. FWIW, down here, ryegrass rarely persists very long in the perenial varieties. I don't why, but they usually only last about 2-3 yrs. Mostly folks simply add an annual variety, The stands of ryegrass planted in existing fields are seldom very thick, so a lot of folks keep a small patch set aside that they plant adjacent to the permenant pasture, and they will prep it and plant a pure stand of annual ryegrass to be grazed for a few hours a day by their livestock. If I raised livestock, that's what I would do. Keep in mind, ryegrass uses a lot of nitrogen, so be prepared to give it what it needs. One cattleman I know well, likes to not cut his bermuda pasture after august. He then applies a nice dose of fertilizer and lets it get 18"-24" tall going into winter. What he's doing is creating a standing hay patch. I've noticed that his cattle always look in very good shape coming out of winter. Better than most actually. Of course his stocking rate is not as high as others, and he feeds free choice hay, but I often see his cows in that field for much of the day and except for the very harshest winter days, they bed down in the tall bermuda. He claims they would rather stay there than in the barn if the element allow.

Regards,

Steve


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

somedevildawg said:


> C'mon guys....it gets to 30-40 around here too....not fit for man or beast!


LOL, I completely agree dawg!!! Anything below 50 is too darn cold for this cajun!,,, :lol:


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## AndyL (Mar 9, 2013)

I can relate with you on the minuses, Steve. This season has been a, well you know. Baler fire (saved the baler) replace a roller, busted gear box, broke belts. And then some. Can't hardly roll a bale and get it in the barn before rain hits it. Luckily sold most of them in the field so rained on rolls weren't to much a problem. More trouble the past 4 wks then all last season and the 1st cut this year. Yep, it been a hell of a season. I think we're in the rain belt.

Still need another 150 rolls for our own.

On the plus, most all hay sold and the calves brought good money.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Ok. Yeah, I haven't seen or heard too much of Bermuda mixed grass hay. The deal is, I want to plant quality hay in one of my pastures for my horses. I have heard a lot of opinions from people that alfalfa is better, orchard grass is better, rye is, etc.. I want y'all to give me your opinion. What type of hay would you plant in your pasture if you had horses?

P.S. Thanks for all of the comments!


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

When I was planting for grass pasture I planted Potomac Orchard, Paddock Brome, and Timothy. It worked well and I could also hay it occasionally.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hybrid Bermuda, sprigged......if for hay for horses, jiggs, Russell, Alicia, Tift 44, whatever most folk around there have, you'll need a source of sprigs....doesn't really matter the type, all very similar. Even Tift 85, just not a real popular horse grass, wider blades and thicker stems....just prolly have to get the pocketbook ready if your soil is anything like ours.....Bermuda LOVES nitrogen!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

^^^ ^^^^^^ What he said.

In any warm climate I believe Bermuda is hard to beat. Hybrids were developed to be more drought tolerant, more productive, higher feed value etc. Common Bermuda is the base for all of the improved hybrids and is better than most other pasture varieties in my opinion.

The down side of Bermuda in my climate is it does not do as well once the fall temps begin to drop compared to some other pasture grasses. Still, the positives far outweigh any negative.

Bermuda is a carpet type grass. It will form a sod and blanket the ground. Other warm climate grasses are bunch grasses. They grow from one group of roots. While they will make a thick grass on a pasture, they do not blanket the ground the way Bermuda does.

Here on my home pasture I have one Bermuda pasture. Across the drainage ditch I have a Bahia/Fescue/Clover pasture. The fescue is a cool season grass and provides grazing during the fall and spring. The clover does the same but is a legume rather than a grass.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Alright. With those comments, I think I'm just going to plant some common Bermuda in the late spring and then have another different variety of other grasses for the fall and winter. A lot of horse people are putting in Perrenial Ryegrass, Timothy, and fescue in their horse pastures. Is that a good mix?

Bahia I heard is a really good hay to plant. Any experience?


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Is it better to have just Bermuda or just Orchard. Or is pastures that are mixed better?


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Whatever it is, I've found (from experience) that horse manure ( if it isn't composted) is only good for weed production and not much else.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Bahia will not yield the tons per acre that Bermuda will for hay. It does well in pastures because it recovers very quickly.

If I considered Fescue it would be the endophyte friendly type like MaxQ. Bahia will eventually take over Bermuda. I would not suggest the two growing together. Because of the carpet Bermuda makes it is kind of hard to get anything other than Bahia to grow with it.

Clover seems to do alright with Bermuda since it is a cool season legume.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Buckaroo said:


> Alright. With those comments, I think I'm just going to plant some common Bermuda in the late spring and then have another different variety of other grasses for the fall and winter. A lot of horse people are putting in Perrenial Ryegrass, Timothy, and fescue in their horse pastures. Is that a good mix?
> Bahia I heard is a really good hay to plant. Any experience?


 I'm not familiar with your climate but your comparing two totally different groups of grass. The bermuda and Bahai are warm season grasses and grow in hot weather. The orchard grass, timothy, perennial ryegrass are cool season grasses and do poorly in hot weather. I would venture to say that if your in an area where Bermuda grass is grown timothy and perennial ryegrass are not going to do well at all. If your climate is conductive to growing bermuda I would say that sprigging one of the hybrids would be the way to go. If your area is on the borderline of the cool season/warm season grass growing areas like it is here a mix of orchard and an endophyte friendly fescue like MaxQ would be good for grazing in the cool months and have a hybrid bermuda pasture for the summer months.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

ok. That seems right. So, right now fall is coming on, so what should I do first. Should I plant the orchard or the MaxQ right now, or should I wait til spring to first plant the Bermuda. Right now, I just have a bare dirt pasture. Nothing has ever grown on it. so, Im starting from scratch and goin to try to make a nice quality horse pasture.


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

We've planted bermuda as late as the middle of September with no problems. You won't have anything you can use going into the winter for pasture or hay though. We planted some spriggs a few years ago going into October, and while they were slow growing going into winter, they established fine. We simply rolled the dice and did well, but it's not recommended. If unseasonably warm and dry for the fall, I personally wouldn't be scared. Bermuda loves warm soil and lots of nitrogen and potash. so if those are present at planting, it'll usually does pretty good.

Best of luck!

Steve


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Buckaroo said:


> ok. That seems right. So, right now fall is coming on, so what should I do first. Should I plant the orchard or the MaxQ right now, or should I wait til spring to first plant the Bermuda. Right now, I just have a bare dirt pasture. Nothing has ever grown on it. so, Im starting from scratch and goin to try to make a nice quality horse pasture.


what I would do is make sure the soil is amended correctly now....you can disc in amendments now, something you won't be able to do going forward, take this opportunity. Things like gettin the PH in line are much harder with surface applications. Maybe plant some oats/rye for grazing during the winter or go ahead with the maxQ although it may be a bit hot now for either of those two....irregardless, get soil tests and get that soil built up while you have the best opportunity.....good luck


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Ok. So I've heard that the seed can only go 1/8 of an inch in the soil. Is that correct? Also, what are some things I need to do to get the soil ready for planting. I'm not sure if I want to plant Bermuda in September. It's says to plant Bermuda in the late spring when it's getting warmer. So, iI guess it doesn't matter what type of hay I plant first? Like I can plant Bermuda right now or orchard grass and then plant the other seed that I didn't do later on in the season? Thanks!

P.S. Is alfalfa a good hay to plant for grazing? Like if I put bermuda and alfalfa together would that be alright?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I am going to plant some more MaxQ this fall. I will drill in Bahia next spring. It does not matter to me which I plant first, allow the season to dictate.

What SDDog said about getting the soil right is important and something we should have discussed earlier. It is easier to get the PH right when you do not have to be concerned with disturbing your new grass.

I have a new lease that needs major work. The Extension Agent told me not to drill seed until the PH was better. He said I would get a very low germination percentage and with the price of seed would be wasting time and money.

I do not know if the soils in your area are alkaline or acidic. An inexpensive soil test would point out what might need to be added to help insure your pasture was healthy and ready to plant and produce at the optimum.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

Is MaxQ a good seed for horses too? Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't want to buy a ton of seed and it not germinate. The soil in my are is alkaline. UC Davis said that a lot of the soil in my area is 7.0. I don't know if that's good or not? What do I need to put in my soil to make it better?

Also, with all of the responses, I'm still not sure what I want to plant right now. So tell me which on is the best cool season seed for pastures for horses. Here are the choices: Orchard Grass, MaxQ, Perrenial Ryegrass, or Clover. Tell me your option on the best?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Buckaroo said:


> Is MaxQ a good seed for horses too? Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't want to buy a ton of seed and it not germinate. The soil in my are is alkaline. UC Davis said that a lot of the soil in my area is 7.0. I don't know if that's good or not? What do I need to put in my soil to make it better?
> Also, with all of the responses, I'm still not sure what I want to plant right now. So tell me which on is the best cool season seed for pastures for horses. Here are the choices: Orchard Grass, MaxQ, Perrenial Ryegrass, or Clover. Tell me your option on the best?


 Not being familiar with your climate It is kind of hard for us to be able give you an exact recommendation on what would be best to plant in your area. If your climate is suitable for growing cool season grasses I would venture to say that a mix of MaxQ and orchard grass would be best. MaxQ is a good safe grass for horses since it has a friendly endophyte that is not harmful to the animals like the toxic endophyte fescue is. Fall is the preferred time of year to plant cool season grasses......that could be now or two months from now depending on your climate.

If you can also grow bermuda in your area it may be a good idea do divide your pasture in two sections......plant your cool season grass this fall in one section and next spring bermuda in the other to give you some summer grazing and let the cool season grass pasture rest during the hot months.

What somedevildawg said about getting your soil fertility right before you plant is spot on. If your ph is 7 that should be fine. A soil sample to see how much N P K is needed is essential. Do you have a county extension office that could help you with what the soil in your area typically needs and proper planting times for your area?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I wish I had 7.... I have seen 5 in my area....takes a lot of lime to get to my "target" of 7... Probably never achieve that, N will wear out your ph and you need copious amounts of N with Bermuda...best to incorporate now if you have to add....

I would do just as FarmerCline suggested, seek out some help from your county extension office....they know exponentially more about your soil/climate than us which helps in the selection process. Take the knowledge you gain on this forum with a grain of salt (a good sized grain however  ) and contact that person to get more specific in terms of when, how, what and where. Need to get those soil tests ASAP....guy down the road can be completely different that you.....good luck


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

How large of an area is your pasture? How many horses on it?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Orchard grass is a good grass. I am too far south, summers too hot for it to do well here. This is why I went with MaxQ.

In general the word "Fescue" is a no-no for horses. That was before the harmful endophyte was discovered. Fescue needs an endophyte to make it the hardy grass it's reputation was built on. MaxQ replaced the old endophyte with a friendly one. Stay away from Endophyte Free fescue. It is not hardy, does not do well.

Fescue and clover are a good combination. One is a grass and the other a legume. Clover will help add nitrogen to your soil in a pasture setting.

As for the summer grass I would look around your area and see what other people have that makes good summer pasture.

I have no experience with perennial ryegrass. It does not do well in my climate. I do drill several acres of annual ryegrass each year.


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## Buckaroo (Aug 20, 2014)

ok. I will follow these tips on planting my hay! Thanks! I am only planting hay on two acres with three horses.


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