# Orchard grass stand loss



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

In the past I have never had much luck growing orchard grass. Usually what would happen is in the summer of the first year of a fall planted stand clumps would start dying out after first cutting and would end up with a thin stand. By the second summer it would be thin enough that other weedy grasses would take over and the stand wouldn't be worth keeping. I always blamed this on a few week period of drought that is not unusual for us to have sometime during the course of summer here. I was of the opinion the varieties I was using just couldn't stand a stretch of dry weather accompanied by high temps. This is one of the reasons I went away from growing orchard the past few years.

Last fall I decided to try orchard grass again because I had a particular customer that wanted orchard. I decided on planting the variety Paiute as it is supposed to be be one of the most drought tolerant varieties of orchard and is even promoted to being used in dry land conditions in the western states. I ended up with the best stand of orchard I have ever had and got a nice first cutting back in May. We have had plenty of moisture and it grew back really well and I cut second cut two weeks ago.

I went this evening to see how the field was growing back. My heart sank when I walked into the field.....lots of dead clumps over the whole field. It looked just as if these clumps died from lack of water as I thought happened to my orchard in the past but that can't be the case because this year there hasn't been a shortage of moisture. Now I'm starting to wonder if in the past the orchard didn't actually die from drought and there is another cause. I leave a 4" minimum stubble so it's not from cutting too short. Fertility is in good shape with no shortage of potash. Anyone have any ideas what might be causing it to die? This is extremely frustrating. Please help!

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Here are a few pictures of what the field looks like and the dead clumps along with health live clumps. I will also add that I did notice some clumps die out after first cutting which I found a little strange then but it was no where near what has died out since second cutting.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Is this the same field that you have had die-offs in the past ?

Regards, Mike


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I know it's almost impossible at this stage of the game but an agronomist would look for some kind of herbicide damage or herbicide residual if they saw a stand like that. There have been rare instances when the crop was young and The Roots not so deep it was okay and when it rooted down they got ahold some herbicide residual. I really think that's reaching and not very practical in this case but the picture looks like herbicide damage and yet it's hard to tell with a picture


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> Is this the same field that you have had die-offs in the past ?
> 
> Regards, Mike


 No, I have never planted orchard grass in this field before.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

endrow said:


> I know it's almost impossible at this stage of the game but an agronomist would look for some kind of herbicide damage or herbicide residual if they saw a stand like that. There have been rare instances when the crop was young and The Roots not so deep it was okay and when it rooted down they got ahold some herbicide residual. I really think that's reaching and not very practical in this case but the picture looks like herbicide damage and yet it's hard to tell with a picture


 Don't think it would be herbicide damage. All I have ever sprayed in the past on this field is roundup, 2/4d, and dicamba. It had been planted in a oat/soybean double crop for three years until last year when I planted teff grass after the oats and then the orchard last fall.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

In our terrible 2016, ours looked just like that; well way to many similar things to your 2017. Our fields are primarily Persist, Benchmark Plus, and some Potomac. Never did figure out what was the cause even though early in the season I said that the evil spirits were running rampant as weather, crops, and equipment were all giving problems.

Shelia


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Water does not stand in this field in this area sometimes by chance?

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> Water does not stand in this field in this area sometimes by chance?
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Nope, it is on a hillside. Pretty even damage across most of the field as well. This is exactly what has happened to every field of orchard I have had in the past.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

This sounds like your issue,sounds like it's getting to be a problem .

https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/cns/articles/48/3/4


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> This sounds like your issue,sounds like it's getting to be a problem .
> 
> https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/cns/articles/48/3/4


Excellent article. Thank you.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> This sounds like your issue,sounds like it's getting to be a problem .
> https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/cns/articles/48/3/4


 Yep, I found a similar article with some of the same info. It does sound similar to my problem an the unfortunate thing is I didn't get a clear answer from the article what the issue is and how to overcome it.

http://grazingguide.net/pdfs/nepc2015meeting/nepc201503.pdf


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Yep, I found a similar article with some of the same info. It does sound similar to my problem an the unfortunate thing is I didn't get a clear answer from the article what the issue is and how to overcome it.
> 
> http://grazingguide.net/pdfs/nepc2015meeting/nepc201503.pdf


Cy's link seems to blame it mostly on low cutting height which you've already ruled out. Unless you may have to leave even more stubble height because you're even farther south.

Are others around you successfully growing any orchard grass? Are you fertilizing after first cutting and possibly burning it?


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Good article. One thing it didn't get into was adverse effect from early first cut vs. Later, particularly on a new seeding.

Not saying this is your issue. Just that in general there is a much higher significance placed on early cut higher testing soft forage than there was years ago.

I think it is a good idea for the health of a new stand to let it get plenty mature before taking first cut. "Here" is a different climate though, common orchardgrass will show up where you don't want it.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I believe it could affect a new stand of Orchard grass taking a early first time cutting. I know here I usually wait to almost July on a new stand as there is very little stem the first year here and it can be taken later with no adverse effect. I also believe it to be of extreme importance in this region to apply what hay wilson used to call "luxurious" application of Potash.....more than what is called for the "vitality" of the stand. I mow my Orchard grass and other grasses at 3 1/2" high as that is the highest setting on my 630 moco without putting the extensions on the moco. I may need to do so eventually. If I recall with the height extensions the lowest cutting is at 4 1/2"......I hated to do that because I did not want to mow alfalfa that high but I have decided to not grow straight alfalfa anymore after this year and just do alfalfa/orchard mixes.

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Interesting thread. I haven't had this problem the last 3 years. But I plant a mix of orchard/brome and we have cool nights and mornings while I've heard you do not. Plus we generally get water on it within 1-2 days of baling. What I wonder is this article is blaming it on cutting height sort of. If that is the case why are people all of a sudden cutting shorter then they used too? I doubt they are. Is this only on new seedings? Or are established fields starting to have this die off? I wonder if it is the varieties of seed?


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I have two Timothy fields we planted at the same time - within a couple weeks. One in Clair Timothy and the other in climax Timothy. The field climax was planted in in a field that was in very good shape IMHO, especially compared to the Clair Timothy field. I didn't expect much out of the Clair, it has been terrific. The climax has been a disappointment. Probably 40% of the stand has died off.

All of my observations are based on the two field compared side to side.

The Clair field was slightly moist from a recent rain when it was drilled. The climax, it was hot, dusty and dry when it was drilled.

PH was good for both fields, but I felt the Clair needed a bit more lime, so I had it done a year ago this fall. The fertilizer response (due to the lime/elevated PH) was terrific. I'm a believer in lime. FWIW - I have a third field we are taking back from the jungle and what lime was left in the truck, I had spread around the perimeter of this field. Broadcast Clair Timothy on the whole field and the ONLY place the Timothy came-up (and heavy) was where the lime was spread.

All of my cuts are at high stubble, 5 inches and with a clean cutting sickle mower conditioner, so low cut or ragged cut isn't an issue.

All of my fields were fall planted.

My feeling is:

1. Clair is just a better verity of Timothy than Climax? Maybe another variety of OG might do better.

2. Check your PH. I'm to understand that good PH makes for good uptake of fertilizer. I'm a believer in lime.

3. I feel the Clair germinated better AND put down better roots from the get-go with the moist soil from when I drilled. The Clair Timothy has never really been stressed. Can't say that for the climax Timothy. Drilling it dusty and dry IMHO put it in a bad spot from the srart. How was the ground when you planted your OG?

Just some thoughts.

YMMV

BILL


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Teslan said:


> I wonder if it is the varieties of seed?


Excellent thought.....I know I tried some of the European later maturing varieties that are being promoted and they were a total waste of time and money. They were dead in 2 years or less. I have had good results with the Benchmark varieties of Orchard grass from Allied seed. Seems like there has been a flush of newer varieties or Orchard grass put out there by many in the last few years.

Regards, Mike


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## woodland (May 23, 2016)

We've got the opposite end of the spectrum up here and deal with winterkill in orchardgrass. Usually there's enough seed in the ground it'll creep back in and keep showing up years after terminating it even. Too bad it's not working for you as I love how fast it regrow after grazing or cutting.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Teslan said:


> What I wonder is this article is blaming it on cutting height sort of. If that is the case why are people all of a sudden cutting shorter then they used too? I doubt they are. Is this only on new seedings? Or are established fields starting to have this die off? I wonder if it is the varieties of seed?


Because disc machines are a relatively recent addition to the lineup (sure they've been around since the 80s but market saturation is ever increasing) and it is much easier to cut too low with them.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Here are a few pictures of what the field looks like and the dead clumps along with health live clumps. I will also add that I did notice some clumps die out after first cutting which I found a little strange then but it was no where near what has died out since second cutting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have one particular field that did the exact identical thing yours is doing, but in large "patches" or "areas", not the entire field. Our problem is grubs. They started in the neighbor's fields, then got a couple of neighbor's lawns, and the problem eventually hit our field. I'm having trouble coming up with a recipe to eradicate them abiding by the label on a product.


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## valleyforage (Apr 28, 2015)

I have seen the same thing, is the death consistent with your tire tracks? I have noticed the problem on a new stand after the first cutting where u would run over the same spot multiple times, like u run the same line for mowing kicking raking and baling. I always thought the plants just got crushed to death when they are still to tender?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Cy's link seems to blame it mostly on low cutting height which you've already ruled out. Unless you may have to leave even more stubble height because you're even farther south.
> Are others around you successfully growing any orchard grass? Are you fertilizing after first cutting and possibly burning it?


 I'm not aware of anyone else around me that grows orchard grass. Everyone else around here just bales unmanaged fescue field. I'm the only guy in my area growing quality hay.

I did topdress after first cutting with 45 pounds of N per acre and the same after second cutting. I don't really think it is the fertilizer burning it as in years past I did not topdress and experienced that same stand loss. Also will add that my ph is good and has been limed to 6.9.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Teslan said:


> Interesting thread. I haven't had this problem the last 3 years. But I plant a mix of orchard/brome and we have cool nights and mornings while I've heard you do not. Plus we generally get water on it within 1-2 days of baling. What I wonder is this article is blaming it on cutting height sort of. If that is the case why are people all of a sudden cutting shorter then they used too? I doubt they are. Is this only on new seedings? Or are established fields starting to have this die off? I wonder if it is the varieties of seed?


 Yeah there are no cool nights this time of year here. I don't have any established orchard fields and all of the new stands I have planted in the past have had this same type of stand loss in the first year and isn't worth keeping after the second year.

I don't really think it is the variety as I have used many varieties and experienced the same problems. I have used persist, Potomac, haymaster, and a couple of the euro varieties. This year I used Paiute as it was supposed to be one of the most drought tolerant varieties of orchard available. In the past I have always blamed it on dry weather but with plenty of moisture this year that must not be the case.

I will also mention that the smooth brome I have in other fields is coming back without any of the stand loss I'm seeing in the orchard. It appears to be a little slower to come back than orchard but it is all alive and growing.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

6125 said:


> I have one particular field that did the exact identical thing yours is doing, but in large "patches" or "areas", not the entire field. Our problem is grubs. They started in the neighbor's fields, then got a couple of neighbor's lawns, and the problem eventually hit our field. I'm having trouble coming up with a recipe to eradicate them abiding by the label on a product.


 That is an interesting thought.....I might need to take a shovel and go did some of the the dead orchard clumps and check for grubs. I have had an issue with grubs eating the roots of alfalfa and causing severe stand loss but that particular type of grub doesn't feed on grasses. I haven't figured out a way to control them in the alfalfa as there are no longer any chemicals on the market that will control them in the soil.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

valleyforage said:


> I have seen the same thing, is the death consistent with your tire tracks? I have noticed the problem on a new stand after the first cutting where u would run over the same spot multiple times, like u run the same line for mowing kicking raking and baling. I always thought the plants just got crushed to death when they are still to tender?


 I did notice the higher traffic parts of the field seemed worse than other parts and wondered if it might be caused from driving over it with the equipment. The orchard was pretty well established though when I took first cutting and was fully headed out and pollinating. If it's that sensitive to traffic though you would think others in different ares would have this issue though?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

FarmerCline said:


> Here are a few pictures of what the field looks like and the dead clumps along with health live clumps. I will also add that I did notice some clumps die out after first cutting which I found a little strange then but it was no where near what has died out since second cutting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Couple of thoughts:

1) It looks like too much traffic over the field. Each pass tends to crush the crowns. One of the pictures show the grass laying in one direction and that's what causes me to think traffic might be the culprit.

2) Cutting height looks a tad short. Looks like maybe 3-4 inches. Can you go 4-6"?

3) Cutting first cutting too late. OG will tend to crowd out neighbors if first cutting is cut too late.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> Couple of thoughts:
> 
> 1) It looks like too much traffic over the field. Each pass tends to crush the crowns. One of the pictures show the grass laying in one direction and that's what causes me to think traffic might be the culprit.
> 
> ...


 Well there is not much of a way I can reduce the traffic..... mowing, tedding twice to get it dry, raking, baling, then getting the bundles picked up and hauled out of the field. I agree it does appear like the orchard died out worse in the wheel tracks. I guess if it's that sensitive to traffic I just won't be able to grow orchard.

Cutting height was 4".....I can raise it to 5 inches which is as high as my mower will go.

I don't really feel first cutting was cut too late......in mid May and the orchard was headed out and pollinating.....weather would not have allowed an earlier cutting if I had wanted.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

by all means, cut it as tall as you can. I've found that 1" makes a huge difference in recovery.

Maybe you can reduce tedding--I try to only ted once and then, only if I have to.

Also, I try to clear the field as I bale for round bales. For sm. squares, I use bale bskets which clear the field as I bale.

Ralph


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

I am certainly no expert or even novice concerning hay production.

But the article states Virginia is on the edge of the transitional zone between cool and warm season grasses. Given your repeated and consistent attempts at growing Orchard grass have been resulting in the same outcome, I would wonder whether you are simply too far South with too much heat in order to maintain a stand.

It is easier to start and grow a plant than to keep it living. Environmental stress can cause havoc. If you are losing your stand in the manner you have stated, I would think about whether the environment simply cannot supply the conditions which will allow Orchard grass to 'bounce back'. The stand simply cannot regenerate the reserves to allow for 2 cuttings and therefore it is stressed and dies after the second, and this might just be due to the heat intolerance.

Just my uneducated and certainly unsolicited thoughts.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Dadnatron said:


> I would wonder whether you are simply too far South with too much heat in order to maintain a stand.


Possible, but I doubt it. I grow Orchard grass and it grows very well here in East Tennessee...which is a very similar climate to the Western North Carolina. FarmerCline is 150 miles due East of me....Orchard grass is my number one product in my forage sales.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Dadnatron said:


> I am certainly no expert or even novice concerning hay production.
> 
> But the article states Virginia is on the edge of the transitional zone between cool and warm season grasses. Given your repeated and consistent attempts at growing Orchard grass have been resulting in the same outcome, I would wonder whether you are simply too far South with too much heat in order to maintain a stand.
> 
> ...


 I have wondered if that is the case since I have never had much luck growing and keeping a stand of orchard. But the thing is this year has been just about a perfect summer for growing cool season grasses and has not been quite as hot as usual and there has been an abundance of moisture so the grass has not been under any drought stress. In the past it has been easy to blame it on the heat or drought but since that wasn't the case this year I can't help but to think my issue has to be something else. I just wish I could figure out what it is.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Thought I would give an update to this. I have been talking to two of the Allied Seeds regional reps for the southeast about my stand loss issues in orchard grass. While they were not able to figure out my issue they were very helpful and put me in touch with an agronomist In SC that works with forage crops and might be able to help figure out my issue. We talked today and he said that next week he would come up here and take a look at my stand and do some testing to see if we could resolve my issue. We went over the usual suspects over the phone and pretty much ruled out cutting height, and from my fertilizer program it didn't sound like a fertility issue, and with this being a wet year drought and heat were ruled out. At least now I have a glimmer of hope that we might be able to figure out the cause of my stand loss and hopefully overcome it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I'll bet it is some sort of disease.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well the agronomist came yesterday to look at my orchard grass. Wish I could say we figured out the issue and knew how or if it could be resolved but it looks like this is not a straightforward problem to solve. Doesnt appear to be caused by a disease and couldn't find any visible insects feeding on the roots which is what I thought it could be.

It is however very shallow rooted and is very easy to pull a clump out of the ground......I had noticed this a couple weeks ago when I was trying to figure out what it is. Most likely in years past it was also shallow rooted and that is why I had almost total stand loss in a dry year. It does appear that much of the stand loss this year could be caused from the traffic of driving over the stand.....it is so shallow rooted that it is loosened out of the ground or doesn't recover. He told me it was not normal for it to be so shallow rooted and you should not be able to pull it out of the ground and that it should hold up to normal traffic from haymaking. There is not a hard pan or anything preventing the roots from growing deeper.

His suggestion was to take tissue samples and a current soil sample to see if there was something going on that is not apparent to the eye and go from there. He mentioned it could possible be a minor element that is deficient and causing the issue. He recommended using a different lab to do this soil sample to see if we get different results.

Very frustrating.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Even has the agronomist stumped; that's about as nice as a kick in the teeth!

Seems like everyone is out of answers (other than choosing another lab), so it's time to think outside of the box for me. If you are sending in soil samples anyway, how about taking a deeper sample...say from 8"-16" deep and not including the top soil. There must be a reason that the roots don't see any need to go down there? Wouldn't cost too much more to send a deep sample or two.

Even as I'm typing this, it's about the dumbest thing I've thought of or heard all day, but nothing else seems to give the answer?

Mark


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

glasswrongsize said:


> Even has the agronomist stumped; that's about as nice as a kick in the teeth!
> 
> Seems like everyone is out of answers (other than choosing another lab), so it's time to think outside of the box for me. If you are sending in soil samples anyway, how about taking a deeper sample...say from 8"-16" deep and not including the top soil. There must be a reason that the roots don't see any need to go down there? Wouldn't cost too much more to send a deep sample or two.
> 
> ...


 Might be worth a try. Roots only appear to go about 2-3" deep. I took the soil samples today as deep as I could get the probe in......around 8".


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

Do you have aluminum toxicity lower down in the subsoil? That could burn roots off going lower? If you take a deeper sample, say beyond 6 inches, have it checked for available aluminum.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

reede said:


> Do you have aluminum toxicity lower down in the subsoil? That could burn roots off going lower? If you take a deeper sample, say beyond 6 inches, have it checked for available aluminum.


 I guess it could be a possibility but I wouldn't think so because I am successfully growing alfalfa in fields that I haven't been able to keep a stand of orchard in years past. Alfalfa roots go deeper than I can dig.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well I got the results back from the soil and tissue test that I did with the lab that the agronomist suggested. I took two samples.....one from parts of the field where the orchard grass looked healthy and thriving but still had stand loss and the other from parts of the field where it was stunted and sick looking. Honestly to me the soil test doesn't look too terrible except that it is a little low in K but the tissue test on the other hand is defiecient in almost everything and excessively high in copper. Not sure why the plant isn't utilizing that nutrients that appear to be in the soil? Haven't had a chance to discuss in detail with my agronomist yet. Thought I would post on here and see if anyone had any thoughts.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Oops I forgot to attach the test results to the previous post.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

you haven't been using pig poop have you?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hayman1 said:


> you haven't been using pig poop have you?


I was wondering if municipal waste was used at one time??Always heard more heavy metals in it then animal poo


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> you haven't been using pig poop have you?





swmnhay said:


> I was wondering if municipal waste was used at one time??Always heard more heavy metals in it then animal poo


 No manure or waste of any kind has been used on these fields. Can't use manure because this is a highly populated area and the smell is not permitted. Before I started farming them they were unmanaged fescue/weedy grasses that rarely if ever saw any fertilize.


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

It is interesting that the nutrient content on the "Bad" section is higher than the "good" section.

I see they don't have organic matter on here. Have you had that test done recently? I would kind of guess in the 2-3% range based on the CEC numbers.

What type of soil and what does the soil structure look like?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

reede said:


> It is interesting that the nutrient content on the "Bad" section is higher than the "good" section.
> I see they don't have organic matter on here. Have you had that test done recently? I would kind of guess in the 2-3% range based on the CEC numbers.
> What type of soil and what does the soil structure look like?


 Yeah I thought It was kind of strange the bad test was not as deficient in as many nutrients as the good test.....the biggest difference I saw was the % of K in the bad tissue test was even lower. I talked to the agronomist I'm working with today and he feels that the K is my most limiting factor and I need liberal amounts applied in multiple applications. My only hang up is that I have not skimped on K in the past and in the last year alone I have applied 200 units of K to that field.

Not sure why they didn't show the OM. In the other soil tests I had done they did and most were less than 1% which is typical of all the soil have have had tested by the NCDA lab in previous years. I'm not very good at describing soil. It is kind of grayish gravelly with pockets of heavy red clay mixed in.....when dry it is like cement.


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