# Round Bales and Cattle



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

A good read from a Kentucky extension agent about round bale weight, feed value, and cattle.

Regards, Mike

http://www.progressiveforage.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4846:an-on-farm-perspective-hay-bale-weight-and-feed-value&catid=80:alfalfa&Itemid=134


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## rrg (Dec 1, 2011)

Great info, I'm going to print this off at work and show our feed customers at the co-op.

Thanks,
Ryan


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Wow that's an eye opener. So if I read this correctly, for every 4x5 round bale I take off, I need to put almost $30 back in for fertilizer? 
Is that per cutting, or per year?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

About two years ago, I figured my cost of production for alfalfa at $140/ton, $160/ton for OG.

This included fertilizer, lime, seed bed prep/planting/seed costs, fuel and equipment depreciation, storage shed/equipment shed, insurance, land taxes, labor other than my own and a few other things that I can't remember right now. Infrequent costs, like seed, lime and buildings, were pro-rated over their life expectancy or depreciation.

When I told some prospective buyers this, they looked at me in disbelief because they were buying (garbage) round bales for $15-25 ($30-60/ton). They just didn't grok the cost of production or the price of producing quality hay.

Ralph


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Wow that's an eye opener. So if I read this correctly, for every 4x5 round bale I take off, I need to put almost $30 back in for fertilizer?
> Is that per cutting, or per year?


The one you take off weighs x lbs. It took y nutrients to grow it. Seems to me that it's per bale.

HTH,
Mark


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Good Info.....agree that most don't know what it costs to put up quality hay. I usually have 30-35$ in each round bale, unless I have to water, then my cost goes up dramatically. Squares (14x18) I figure about 2$ in a square, again, more if we water. My cost last year averaged about $120 an acre, x 4 = 480 per year, per acre, for NPK. Lime, pesticides, herbicides, not included. Very very expensive to grow good quality Bermuda grass in the south. I always tell folks the same thing, most farmers don't have a clue what the have in a bale of hay....their production costs are not inclusive to all their related costs. Good example.....when they go to unhitch an implement and hook up the disc mower, they already have a tractor, with fuel in it, I bet that never gets added in to the final cost. I was at a friends farm the other day, he was paying his fertilizer bill for last year.....387,000 dollars....bet he can't tell you how much went just to hay production, probably has no idea. That's the diff. in them and I, I see my cost directly, everytime I crank up the equipment I have to check the fuel gauge to see if I need to add any, everytime I fertilize its for hay, at the end of the year I know exactly what it cost me, no beans, corn, pnuts, cotton, etc. to skew those numbers. 
They are spot on on their analysis......


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

I agree their numbers are spot on. We end up averaging about $180/ac/cutting in expenses. This will make about 2t/ac of hay. That said we have about $30/700# bale just in costs alone. That's not including the field hands labor(me







!). Kinda makes it hard to sell rounds at a profit when just down the road some yonk is selling his 850# bales for $25 with no fertility/nutritional inputs. That's why we're moving to more squares and less rounds. I'll make 'em in the future but only on request for previous customers (the ones that don't complain about paying for a good product).
Regards,
Steve


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

And ya know, perhaps I just didn't read it, they didn't factor in any dollars for storage, I figure about .15 a bale per month for squares.....why .15? I have no idea, the costs fluctuate so much that its hard to put a number on it, but if you don't figure anything, your numbers are skewed again.....perhaps they did and I didn't read it, but with squares it's a HUGE expense....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I just dropped 10 grand on fertilizer today. A pittance to some of you guys, I'm sure. Feels like a lot to me! I figure I did about 120 acres. 
I need to sell quality round bales for minimum of $75 and hopefully more like $80 per 900lb bale according to my cocktail napkin math.
I'm beginning to realize that making a heavy 4x5 round bale might win you a "farmer of the year" award, but since hardly any of my customers even ask what they weigh, maybe I should scale back to 750lbs ????? Lol
I mean, if the dope down the road wants to sell bales for $70 and I know they weigh about 600lbs, but nobody asks, sometimes I think, " what's the use" ??
My best customer ran out of rounds in march and so I bought some for him from a local competitor. Didn't want to do it, but had to. Small, light little marshmallows, couldn't weigh 600 lbs. $70 bucks a piece! Don't know how he sleeps at night.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I just dropped 10 grand on fertilizer today. A pittance to some of you guys, I'm sure. Feels like a lot to me! I figure I did about 120 acres.
> I need to sell quality round bales for minimum of $75 and hopefully more like $80 per 900lb bale according to my cocktail napkin math.
> I'm beginning to realize that making a heavy 4x5 round bale might win you a "farmer of the year" award, but since hardly any of my customers even ask what they weigh, maybe I should scale back to 750lbs ????? Lol
> I mean, if the dope down the road wants to sell bales for $70 and I know they weigh about 600lbs, but nobody asks, sometimes I think, " what's the use" ??
> My best customer ran out of rounds in march and so I bought some for him from a local competitor. Didn't want to do it, but had to. Small, light little marshmallows, couldn't weigh 600 lbs. $70 bucks a piece! Don't know how he sleeps at night.


I feel ur pain JD, like I've stated earlier, with Bermuda grass down in the south it's about 100-150 per acre 3-4 times a year, adds up in a hurry......and I feel like I need to get about $10 per 100lbs as well, if I want to make money......


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> I'm beginning to realize that making a heavy 4x5 round bale might win you a "farmer of the year" award, but since hardly any of my customers even ask what they weigh, maybe I should scale back to 750lbs ????? Lol
> 
> I mean, if the dope down the road wants to sell bales for $70 and I know they weigh about 600lbs, but nobody asks, sometimes I think, " what's the use" ??
> My best customer ran out of rounds in march and so I bought some for him from a local competitor. Didn't want to do it, but had to. Small, light little marshmallows, couldn't weigh 600 lbs. $70 bucks a piece! Don't know how he sleeps at night.


Everything I look at, from toilet paper to potato chips to beer, is now downsizing the package size so that you are buying less product but paying the same or more in price.

The latest I read is that Budweiser is introducing a slim waist beer can.

The middle of the can is narrower than the bottom and top, kinda like a bow tie standing up. The can only holds 11.3 ounces instead of 12 ounces. But the bars are selling it for the same price. (Of course, this is after Budweiser has water down the beer.)

Supposedly, it is perceived by the consumer that it is the same size as the 12 oz. And is easier to hold!

So, I am thinking I will bale all my round bales at 54-56" this year and my squares at 32".

There is no inflation, there is no inflation, there is no inflation.....and we're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When I get a call, it's always "how much per bale?" 
Sometimes they ask the size of the bale. 
Rarely do they ask the weight of the bale. 
How would they even be able to verify the weight of the bale?


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

> I mean, if the dope down the road wants to sell bales for $70 and I know they weigh about 600lbs, but nobody asks, sometimes I think, " what's the use" ??


JD, I get the feeling you're a lot like me. I try to do it right, because it's the right thing to do, that's the way I was raised.

And I respect the decent customer and don't want to lose him. If we start to sell the same soft, light bales the 'other guys' sell, why not just buy from them? I have always felt if you have a better product, you can build a better customer base. You don't* have* to sell to just anybody that comes along.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

urednecku said:


> JD, I get the feeling you're a lot like me. I try to do it right, because it's the right thing to do, that's the way I was raised.
> 
> And I respect the decent customer and don't want to lose him. If we start to sell the same soft, light bales the 'other guys' sell, why not just buy from them? I have always felt if you have a better product, you can build a better customer base. You don't* have* to sell to just anybody that comes along.


Agree 100%. It's just frustrating when your customers are too stupid to understand that a 4x5 can weigh between 500-1,000 lbs and that given similar hay quality, if you pay $70 for a 600lb bale vs. $80 for a 900lb bale, you're getting less product for your money. Yet rarely do they even ask for weight.
we need to edjumicate our customers!!


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

It seems the ones to stupid to figure out what is a better deal.Light soft small bales vs a tight heavy bale.Are usually the PIA customers that checks bounce or want 1 bale at a time.I'm done with them they can buy their hay elsewhere.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

urednecku said:


> JD, I get the feeling you're a lot like me. I try to do it right, because it's the right thing to do, that's the way I was raised.
> 
> And I respect the decent customer and don't want to lose him. If we start to sell the same soft, light bales the 'other guys' sell, why not just buy from them? I have always felt if you have a better product, you can build a better customer base. You don't* have* to sell to just anybody that comes along.


Took the words right out of my head.

There is a bit of a catch 22 to raising quality hay and being honest. If we produce a good product and make an honest bale of hay then word will eventually get out and people will seek you. The catch is not all of them are willing to pay us for the true value of what we provide.
It is nice when word gets back to you from customers who brag about your hay. You make nice heavy rolls, no mold, a true 4 x 5 and their horses or cows eat it all. I am not sure these people are willing to pay for the difference.
If I tried to charge equal value by weight only, I would need $60 per roll. Add an increase for quality and you have priced yourself out of business on the local market.
Producing quality hay is no accident.

My Extension Agent told me in a very honest manner that I could not make dense rolls, sell them at a competitive price and stay in business. He said 3, 700 lb rolls at $40 per, would proivide the $120 per ton needed to remain in business. Reality (here) says you will never get $60 for a thousand pound roll of grass hay.
I just gained 2 sets of platform scales that came with some other equipment I bought. I intend to get a set calibrated and set them on the flat bed just to verify the weight of the rolls I make.
I am glad I feed the majority of my hay.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

You guys need to just sell by the ton and maybe print up a sheet with bale size comparisons and try to educate them,IF possible.Fornunatly most rd bales and lg sqrs are sold by ton HERE.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> You guys need to just sell by the ton and maybe print up a sheet with bale size comparisons and try to educate them,IF possible.Fornunatly most rd bales and lg sqrs are sold by ton HERE.


This is what the Extension Agent said. We discussed how hay in other regions were sold by the ton. That is one of the motivating factors in me wanting to set up the platform scales. I just want buyers to see for themselves.
We do not have scales around here, no place to weigh a load. That is a limiting factor when trying to sell by weight.
Change is also hard to accept. People here have always bought by the bale.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

There is a quiet a few places with scales here.Elevators,fertilizer plants,feedlots.I do business at most of them so it is free to weigh.Others they may charge a fee.Do you have any truck stops that have scales?Maybe you could weigh there??HERE most of my customers will not buy by the bale.Everything is by the ton and they may even have their own truck scale at the larger feedlots.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Until scrap metal became a booming business the closest scales were probably 20 miles away. You will hear random comments from people about a roll or square being light. Weighing hay has never been a standard practice here. 
I would love to price hay by the ton. Sadly, most is sold a few rolls or bales at a time. People get set in their ways.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Makes you wonder when the government will step in and regulate hay sales weight claims. 
I know......don't even go there.......


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

I think right now you could afford to send some hay north. The local auction just sold some 1100lbs. 5x5 bales that I made for a guy. It was from an old swamp that was dry late last summer. Had reed canary and roots and dirt. This particular auction sold by the bale rather than by the ton. The bales brought $306 apiece. 3rd cutting alfalfa/grass was $14/bale.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

barnrope said:


> I think right now you could afford to send some hay north. The local auction just sold some 1100lbs. 5x5 bales that I made for a guy. It was from an old swamp that was dry late last summer. Had reed canary and roots and dirt. This particular auction sold by the bale rather than by the ton. The bales brought $306 apiece. 3rd cutting alfalfa/grass was $14/bale.


Sob


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm god smacked!!! 
Where "up north" was this?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

barnrope said:


> I think right now you could afford to send some hay north. The local auction just sold some 1100lbs. 5x5 bales that I made for a guy. It was from an old swamp that was dry late last summer. Had reed canary and roots and dirt. This particular auction sold by the bale rather than by the ton. The bales brought $306 apiece. 3rd cutting alfalfa/grass was $14/bale.


Holy crap Tom.So are you seeding more alfalfa then you thought?That would be $554 per ton = $3000 per acre??WOW


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## askinner (Nov 15, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> Where "up north" was this?


Heaven by the sounds of it JD!! I'd be there if I was getting those prices....


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

I'd sell anything that ate it!


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Agree 100%. It's just frustrating when your customers are too stupid to understand that a 4x5 can weigh between 500-1,000 lbs and that given similar hay quality, if you pay $70 for a 600lb bale vs. $80 for a 900lb bale, you're getting less product for your money. Yet rarely do they even ask for weight.
> we need to edjumicate our customers!!


Around here weighing is too much trouble. The nearest scales are 18 miles away and having to go and weigh disrupts the operation. Same thing on calves. Just guesstimate the weight unless you go to the barn. But a lot of folks don't like going to the barn for several reasons, me included. Would rather take a hit on price if that's what it takes.

Other thing is once it's baled you have no idea what's in it unless you saw the grower fertilize and saw the crop. Some hay is one cutting per year of existing grass and weeds. Grass has topped out long ago, stems are flax, nutritional value is almost nonexistent. That's why I do my own.

Mark


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

WOW you sell cattle without weighing them?You could easily be 100 lbs off!! I could be anyway.That could be $150-200 hd difference.Someone will be on short end of the deal.

A cattle feeder I know that feeds 10,000 hd puts it well about guessing wts."I can guess a chicken within 5 lbs"


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Cy thats what I was thinking. Dad and I would play the weight game at the sale barn I wasn't bad but of course he was better. With input costs on raising there is no way I could afford to gamble on mental scales!


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## tnwalkingred (Jun 8, 2010)

Most people here have no clue what a round bale weighs. They simply want to know what size it is and most of the horse people prefer the 4x5 over the larger bales as the weenie tractors they use can't handle them very well. If it looks good, is in a tight roll, and has a decent color to it they will buy it!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> WOW you sell cattle without weighing them?You could easily be 100 lbs off!! I could be anyway.That could be $150-200 hd difference.Someone will be on short end of the deal.
> 
> A cattle feeder I know that feeds 10,000 hd puts it well about guessing wts."I can guess a chicken within 5 lbs"


Think they were talking bales not cattle.....unless I read it wrong. Can't imagine that anyone would guess at cattle weight, certainly not the buyer or seller....but then again, some probably do......


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

No I took it he was guessing cattle. My bad if I misunderstood


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