# Economics of Small Squares Vs. Rounds



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Not sure if this is in the right forum or not but-

I am looking at my largest customer moving to more rounds and less squares. So, I started looking at the economics. I started rounds 4 x5s as a way to get rid of excess hay at no loss. That is ok when it is 10% of your business, but when it moves on 30%, you have to start thinking.

Now, on balance, rent on property (if you pay that) is the same, fertilizer costs the same, lime as needed is the same, herbicides cost the same, mowing/conditioning costs the same, tedding has the same cost, adn raking has the same cost. Now I am willing to concede that round baling may be faster and thus cheaper than square baling, but that is very marginal when considering all the other costs.

So, at 45# a bale selling for 6$ vs 1000# round of exactly the same hay in the same field made at the same time selling for $60/roll, there is a loss of 60$ per roll or $300/ac if you are getting 2.5 tpa. How does that ever make sense? Has someone else solved this riddle, it sure looks like voodoo to me.

Thoughts?

Just making a bazillion rounds is not the answer as you will wear out all your stuff and your self before you ever get even. Someone smarter than me must have figured this out. I await your direction.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

I haven't figured it out either. Just can't put your top of the line hay in a roll unless your in the business of breaking even, in which there are quite a few people willing to do that. I call them hobby farmers or they are people that raise hay for "fun" and have other sources of income.


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

If your selling a 45lb bale at 6.00 @ , looks to me that a 1000lb bale should be worth 133.33 each ? Why would you sell it for 60.00 ? You say its the same hay why would you shoot yourself in the foot with the rounds ? If I am pricing my alfalfa at 250.00 per ton , I will get that with my rounds or big squares . I dont mess with little bales much anymore due to they take too much of my time when I am putting up hay. Do you price the rounds that much cheaper vs your small bales ? If you do why , is hard to sell the rounds vs small ? I am just trying to feel you out with your reasoning .


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

Depends a lot on location and your market . I'm pretty sure out west there would be a much greater demand for the big squares and rounds then in the east or here .


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Could you sell your rds by the ton?Have a chart showing how many sq bales are in a rd bale.

Be a heck of a tight bale @1000 lbs in a 4 x 5.If the bales are 800 lbs kinda skews the numbers.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

You think thats bad I can get 8 for small squares and others get 30 in rounds for the same hay. Here its because very few guys bale squares and everybody went to rounds. Labor is also alot more here for small squares because we stack in the barn by hand.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> Could you sell your rds by the ton?Have a chart showing how many sq bales are in a rd bale.Be a heck of a tight bale @1000 lbs in a 4 x 5.If the bales are 800 lbs kinda skews the numbers.


I had a nh 740 that I could get bales to weigh 1050 they tension was as tight as it would go though.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

In my area there is no soultion for the dilemma.

I believe part of it is an old mindset that lesser hay is rolled (cow hay) and better hay is squared for horses. When people here see a roll of hay they think doscount.

ETA:

It is easier for a person with one or two horses to feed a square bale. Also easier to feed stalled horses.

Most horse owners do not like to see a horse standing around a roll eating all day.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If getting 6 or 8$ a bale for squares that will pay for a lot of the extra labour or mechanized solution. We get 3.50$ a bale on squares, a 4x5 round is about 30$ here too. Hmm, 800 bales per truck, costs about 1000$ to send a truck to Ontario so say 1.25$ transport, could work. I still see a lot of 3$ hay advertised on Kijiji in Ontario though.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Mine is delivered for 8. Its 6.50 at the barn. I check that hsy out all the time slow. Its mostly swamp grass or washed or they dont have the customers like I do. If its good I buy it myself. I never complain when I can double my money.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

All my squares go in kicker wagons. I have 5 wagons that have a total capacity of about 800 bales. I have a teenager that stacks trailers for me at a reasonable rate and most of the trailers are propped at customers and they unload. So, really labor is not a hugh issue for me. My problem is that I run out of quality because you just can't make but so much in 3 weeks from may 25 to June 15 or prime first cut hay. If I had more equipment adn more help, the problem is still the weather is so iffy-so you cut 40 acres of prime hay and then it rains and you are stuck.

On the weight of the rounds, i have been going on what the dealers are telling me and my custom roller regarding tension. I am planning on taking the 5 rolls I have left on the trailer over to the landfill and get a weight on them. I have weighed a lot of square bales and have a good feel for those. I just used 45# as a discussion number. A lot of my orchard bales are over 50#. 60 on average year to year is a good price here for hay in rolls.

I do think that the round bale bias started with a lot of crap hay being made early on. There is still as much crap made as good hay-you know, the rolls that are made in a field year after year, but never get moved from the fence line.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Dont forget geographics to. Im in the heart of horse country and not many bale squares right in my area. Works good for me.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

What about storing them inside or covered ,do any better that way ?


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Inside stored prime hay is $50-60. But thats not to often.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

Well one thing that would help is to make 4x4s rather than 4x5s, I know around here there isn't much of price difference between them. Even though there is more hay in a 4x5. One thing is storage here, I can sell a round for 40 out of the field, but if I can store it dry I can get 60 for the same roll in the dead of winter. But squares are easier to stack up in the loft and I get 6 for one of those. I've gone back and forth in the 6 years of making my own hay. And last year I leaned heavier on the square bales. I can deliver them in kicker racks to a customer, so the labor isn't bad. Most of the rounds I made were wrapped for my cows. Which also lets me get back to those fields faster for 2nd crop.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Thank goodness for customers who will take hay in summer. Working on that for mine.

Also may have found an indoor parking area for wagons so I can leave hay on them.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

I've got a couple big horse farm customers with large indoor arenas. Nothing feels better than just pulling wagons into those indoors, pulling the pin and knowing no matter what weather rolls in that night, the hay is under cover and the customer's responsibility.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

If a horse customer wants rounds, I'll sell him rounds. I do a good bit of rounds for cows, and have a few horsey folk that want them. Mine works out to: $210 ton for squares and $135 ton for rounds.....I don't mind doing them for good customers that buy squares too, but that's really close to a break even scenario for me, might be losing money...probably am, try not to look too close


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't see in my area how a person could justify doing round hay that is quality grass around here. I could only get $30 for 4x4 and $35 for a 4x5 that were stored in the dry. I figured I was pretty much just covering the expenses and not making much at all. This is same hay made into square bales will bring $5 per bale. Even with the extra labor cost of square hay it just doesn't make sense to round bale here with the rock bottom prices.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Rounds of mixed grass here will average $75.00/ton.....small squares of orchard/timothy will average about $240 ton....alfalfa about $300 ton.

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Here's the local auction prices:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/gx_gr312.txt

http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/gx_gr313.txt

You'll notice that sm. squares are going in the range of $240/ton while rounds are going for $60-80/ton (figuring 1000 lbs).

A lot of round bales around here are often crap. Guys go out and bale anything, then sell it for whatever they can get. They'll bale water ways, fallow fields, CRP ground, etc., usually 3-4 weeks, or more, after its peaked in feed value. They do it after row crops are in to fill in their time. Bales can contain all kinds of crap weeds!

As a result, rounds have a bad reputation. And people don't want to buy them.

Ralph


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> If a horse customer wants rounds, I'll sell him rounds. I do a good bit of rounds for cows, and have a few horsey folk that want them. Mine works out to: $210 ton for squares and $135 ton for rounds.....I don't mind doing them for good customers that buy squares too, but that's really close to a break even scenario for me, might be losing money...probably am, try not to look too close


Dawg- see you are right where I am-prices close on both. And I did rounds for my convenience as well as my good repeat customers. It's just now the operation carrying the load is shifting...


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree and understand, that's why my intention is to square everything. However, the most significant drawback is storage. The way I approach the season is; I intend to square it all. But I know that some cuttings just ain't gonna work for squares for whatever reason, rain of course is the usual culprit. If a field gets rained on, and I mean rained on, the price for those rounds just went down to about 100 a ton. At that point I'm definitely losing money by the bucket. But I have to get the hay off, gotta do something with it, I don't store it inside (like horsey rounds usually do) and the cattle buyers usually buy in some quantity, thus saving money from having to go load several times. Just basically cutting my losses.....but the market is what it is and that's what it is here.


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## Maryland Ridge Farms (Mar 1, 2009)

Around here a 5x5 round of junk hay is $25 A 5x5 of good hay is $35 or $40 the reason is most of them are idiots and don't know the difference If you price good hay for $60 it will sit and rot! Feed the bad hay sell the good hay in squares. I had a horse lady want 500 squares at $4 in the field she didn't show. She called 2 days later wanting to buy the hay after I rolled it up for 425 a roll. I hung up cant stand the stupidity and the arrogance of some of them. But we still have good customers to pay a fair price. One problem here is the guys that have 2 or 3 horses and decide to go in the hay business, buy a farmall m and old sq baler and old rake and mower put up 20 or 30 acres and sell the hay they don't need for $2 a bale just to help out the horse people


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I'm setup to handle small squares with a Hoelscher accumulator/grapple; so for me, making/collecting rounds is a PITA. The only time I make them is a weedy field, rained on hay, or if I run out of storage...that's only happened once. I usually price them at whatever everyone else is getting and usually have them all gone by winter. I look at selling rounds as no more than a way to offset my fertilizer costs and get my cost per small square bale down. Going price around here for rounds is about $50-60 and JDHAYBOY down the road is the only person around here that I know actually makes "horse quality" rounds.....the rest is just cow food.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

To quote Forest Gump: "Stupid is as stupid does." (Or something like that.)

People who feed poor quality hay to their cattle have more loses, less weight gain, more health problems, more wastage, etc. And they usually end up spending more than they saved in the long run.

Just like the people who buy S. American/Mexico food--It's cheap, but they have more health problems, more illnesses.

The cost of going good usually is not that much more than going cheap (I'm not talking extravagant, like caviar), because the base cost for any product is usually pretty close for all products. The difference is where they cut the corners, like quality checks, nutrient value, labor, handling, etc.

Just thinking.....

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

What if one of the teenage helpers falls and gets a serious injury and parents sue you for an unsafe work environment?
Not likely, but people in my area die or get maimed every year and its usually in the hay stacking or hassling process, not the PTO driveshaft.
I think hay is a niche thing. You can rip a guy for squares or rounds or you can compliment them. 
I have a guy buying 800-850lb rounds as fast as I can make them for $75/bale and he picks them up. All my crap that got ruined goes to mushroom for $40. Some guys would be happy in other parts of the country to sell quality rounds for $40.
My mushroom grower won't buy small squares, unless he's desperate, so round bales works great for MY situation. I could go 20 miles down the road and find small squares works way better.
I would like to get more than I get for my hay. Shouldn't have to sell so cheap cause its round bales as mentioned above, but that's a perception of RBs being lower quality
One of my goals is to help change that perception. We should all collectively do that as hay farmers.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Thats why I use Mennonite/Amish kids. In their religion they seem to have no care if they die. I watch them run full tilt up a ladder 40 feet and jump on the barn roof and work with no harness. I just about shit myself watching it. I said to the one guy why dont you guys wear harnesses he said if god intends us to die we will fall. I was thinking what if god didnt intend for that ice to be there. Thats just the way they are and they dont even no what the word lawsuit means.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We have a couple customer's who want rounds and we use them on our farm as well . most all of our big bale customers prefer 3x3,s to rounds.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> What if one of the teenage helpers falls and gets a serious injury and parents sue you for an unsafe work environment?
> Not likely, but people in my area die or get maimed every year and its usually in the hay stacking or hassling process, not the PTO driveshaft.
> I think hay is a niche thing. You can rip a guy for squares or rounds or you can compliment them.
> I have a guy buying 800-850lb rounds as fast as I can make them for $75/bale and he picks them up. All my crap that got ruined goes to mushroom for $40. Some guys would be happy in other parts of the country to sell quality rounds for $40.
> ...


We tried to get some of our Amish dairy farmers to use rounds and after they tried them they thought 3x3's were easy to feed . Like your BR7060 makes a brick ,,setting one on the barn floor tearing it apart with bear hands and kicking it down the hay hole then you got a big pile of lose hay to carry 30 stalls away . With a 3x3 they can just move the flakes around so much easier , And how much did I want for A round per ton About the same price As 3x3,s . They only called once,


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> What if one of the teenage helpers falls and gets a serious injury and parents sue you for an unsafe work environment?
> Not likely, but people in my area die or get maimed every year and its usually in the hay stacking or hassling process, not the PTO driveshaft.
> I think hay is a niche thing. You can rip a guy for squares or rounds or you can compliment them.
> I have a guy buying 800-850lb rounds as fast as I can make them for $75/bale and he picks them up. All my crap that got ruined goes to mushroom for $40. Some guys would be happy in other parts of the country to sell quality rounds for $40.
> ...


That is right JD....and that is what makes the world go around.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> Thats why I use Mennonite/Amish kids. In their religion they seem to have no care if they die. I watch them run full tilt up a ladder 40 feet and jump on the barn roof and work with no harness. I just about shit myself watching it. I said to the one guy why dont you guys wear harnesses he said if god intends us to die we will fall. I was thinking what if god didnt intend for that ice to be there. Thats just the way they are and they dont even no what the word lawsuit means.


Yeah but I can't agine you or anyome wants a kid dying for a few bucks stacking hay besides, not everyone has access to Amish help. Around here, were still in a deep economic recession. People are selling off horses to buy necessities. My sharper buyers are looking hard at prices. My RB price is equal to about $4/sm sq.
With sq bales at 7-8 around here, popularity of compact tractors to handle RBs, availability of better feeders, bale unrollers, etc. the reasons to buy small squares seem to be disappearing. Only the older customers with 1-2 horses seem interested in small squares anymore. Younger, more well heeled buyers want round bales.
Now if I could get my price per bale just a liiiiiiittttttle higher!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya I dont want them to die obviously but thats their attitude. I went to get the little buggers more water one time and I come back they filled a bag with about 10lb of grain and tied it off and were running on 6" wide beams 30 feet up throwing it back and forth mid run. I put an end to that in a hurry.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Looking at the most recent auction in my area large round grass bales sold for $65-$77/bale. Small squares sold for $4.25-$6.25. 3x3 squares $35-$57 a bale. Which tells me a few different things. The 3x3 bales must have been trash. The small square bales were trash to below average quality. And the rounds were average to good quality. Based on my market knowledge. Also that you can't get decent values from auction reports unless you were there in person. In my area very few people load small squares by hand. Also very few people buy round bales to feed. Most of the round bales in my area are done by the guys actually feeding themselves. Not really for resale. 3x3 bales are equal to small squares in value per ton if quality being equal. 4x4 big squares are worth less per ton just because most people don't have equipment to handle them. Of course we have a lot of hay around that sat outside and uncovered in the heavy rains in Sept. So as most of you in more rainy climates that results in black/ruined hay. Normally not a worry here. Though to get into 3x3 bales from small squares costs significantly more then just going to round bales.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> What if one of the teenage helpers falls and gets a serious injury and parents sue you for an unsafe work environment?
> Not likely, but people in my area die or get maimed every year and its usually in the hay stacking or hassling process, not the PTO driveshaft.
> I think hay is a niche thing. You can rip a guy for squares or rounds or you can compliment them.
> I have a guy buying 800-850lb rounds as fast as I can make them for $75/bale and he picks them up. All my crap that got ruined goes to mushroom for $40. Some guys would be happy in other parts of the country to sell quality rounds for $40.
> ...


Your good hay price $180-$190 per ton picked up . I recall you saying you just bale the native grasses no alfalfa or grass mixes . That price may not be all that bad.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I think one thing you just said is very key in this discussion. You said most of the round bales are done by guys who feed their own herds.
That tells me RBs are the most economical to bale. Farmers are generally not wasteful. Round bales are easy to make, fast out of the baler, easy to pick up with a spear and the baler itself is pretty cheap compared to a 3x3 or larger square baler. 
I'm finding that buyers are picking up on this and if they have a compact tractor and a feeder, they find round bales to work pretty well. I can't name one customer of mine that doesn't have a skid steer, compact or something to move bales.

Still, I see old ladies out there throwing $8 small squares on the ground, so there's still buyers for them. I wish I could explain to them how much money they've wasted over the years


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I think why they like squares is they can keep a closer eye on the quality. If you get some with mold or dust you can set it aside. Not so easy with round bales in a ring.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> Still, I see old ladies out there throwing $8 small squares on the ground, so there's still buyers for them. I wish I could explain to them how much money they've wasted over the years


It is not practical for "old ladies" to handle round bales....alot of horses are fed prescribed amounts of hay....not free choice....and feeding prescribed amounts from round bales is not practical for young and old alike. And in many instances, small squares are of higher feed quality than rounds. There will always be a market for small squares.

Regards, Mike


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

JD I'd say you hit the nail right on the head for me. Yup the reason I don't feed my cows squares big or small is a wrapped round bale saves me time, money and storage.

I don't know of a big square baler in this area. I do know a couple guys are hauling them in and selling to horse farms. But for the most part the boarding operations especially aren't going to swap over to round bales. I sell some horse people rounds, but these are backyard places. The real operations have prescribed diets for each horse, including how many flakes per feeding. Easier with 40 horses and 10 different employees feeding out.

But with the rise of compact tractors, and the aging of some guys around here rounds really have caught on.

My mother swears rounds are reason they still have so many cows and hay customers. I think my folks put up maybe 500 squares into the loft last year. All for hutch calves and night feeding my mother's horse. We put up 6k 10 years ago. The only hay my father delivers now are rounds, he can pop 2 into the dump trailer, get to a customers barn and just push a button and boom hay delivered. But that's not to say he doesn't still make a ton of squares for custom hay or delivered in wagons.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol said:


> It is not practical for "old ladies" to handle round bales....alot of horses are fed prescribed amounts of hay....not free choice....and feeding prescribed amounts from round bales is not practical for young and old alike. And in many instances, small squares are of higher feed quality than rounds. There will always be a market for small squares.
> 
> Regards, Mike


My small squares would be almost identical in quality to my round bales. After all, it's the exact same hay. I realize small squares do have a tiny percentage of better protein retention, but not really enough to worry about. 
Oh well, it's fun to kick around and another reason the expression "different strokes for different folks" is so apropos in our haying operations.

I have what I hope to be a future customer right down the road from me. Has a herd of 15 belted galloways. Feeds them natural grasses in a ring. Talk about waste. Its as if the herd stands on a 2' thick stage of wasted hay around the ring. Once again, people of tremendous wealth (I will take a picture of their farm someday and it will blow you away), So they probably dont care much. Anyway, 1/3 of the round bales are being wasted. I need to get them into a Hay Saver and buying my round bales.

Fun conversation and really interesting to hear points of view contrary to mine and others. Hay is very local.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Jd that "waste" would make some good fertilizer for you if you could work something out there. Or compost into black dirt and sell some of that. By-product. It is Only waste if you don't capitalize on it.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Jd if the are buying your hay why on earth would you tell them about a hay saver lol. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot isnt it? More waste = more hay needed. More hay = more money for you.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Selling value and building a solid relationship.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

He isn't trying to make one sale. He is trying to build a lasting business relationship. Short term loss is long term gain.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

If the guy is happy with his ring feeder I say leave him be about it. Just get selling your hay to him. Its like me. I feed my horses with hay nets in the stall. My customers are happy as loons to throw it in the stall loose on the floor. Half of it ends up in the crap pile. Not my problem. I did the figuring on my own about hay nets they can to.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

And maybe he will be happy with it still. By offering some information he can build trust. Even if they don't care. "He y this guy is looking out for me.". So when the next guy offer s hay a few bucks cheaper what is he going to say? Do nothing and he will think that guy is looking out for him. Do something and he will tell the next guy to pound sand. Unless you are trying to just screw people over and sell some snake oil relationships build business.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I see what your saying but maybe the guy would take the cheaper hay to. Some guys have no loyalty.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Right. This doesn't sound like your average Wal Mart shopper from what JD said earlier.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

This could also open up a market for lower quality hay to be used as bedding for JD instead of the them laying on the good stuff. Maybe some outside rounds for a premium over mushroom hay.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> Jd that "waste" would make some good fertilizer for you if you could work something out there. Or compost into black dirt and sell some of that. By-product. It is Only waste if you don't capitalize on it.


The hay ring waste is ideal for fixing washes in a field.

We took out the terraces when we planted fescue this past fall. The grass is not as well established and we had some erosion. We scooped up some of that material and filled in the washes. Not only does it stay in place, it also builds the soil.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> Right. This doesn't sound like your average Wal Mart shopper from what JD said earlier.


Kinda sounds like your average high roller from the city that doesnt have a clue. Those guys with all the fancy stuff are usually the tightest ones when it comes to hay. If buddy comes in for a buck less hes the one selling the hay. I say let him feed the way he wants. Most guys are knuckle heads when trying to tell them something that will help them anyway lol.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

At the end of the day hay does not make my payments. I would be rich if every time I asked someone who pays the bills and they the told me the boss. Or the company. Wrong. Ultimately the customer pays the bills. We can disagree on how to convinc e a customer to pay me versus the next guy. Bottom line he pays my bills. You kill him and sell the beef. I will milk her and sell the milk.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Tomorrow I have a calf.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm selling my lowest quality hay at $60 a bale right now, they come and get it. I've topped the hay auction several times the last month with round bales. Squares of the large or small variety sold for less per ton on those days.

But I will also admit if you don't have a market for round bales in your area then you can't compete with prices for squares then, plain and simple.

EDIT, changed $60 a ton to $60 a bale.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> Jd if the are buying your hay why on earth would you tell them about a hay saver lol. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot isnt it? More waste = more hay needed. More hay = more money for you.


Maybe it is just the customers you have vs the ones that I have. My customers genuinely appreciate any suggestions on how to save money. Like Moose said, it is called developing a business relationship. I don't see it as loosing money, it is stabilizing long term sales. It is somewhat like my stern lectures to any customer that tries to stack my squares on flat on the twine side. Won't let them do it while I am there. If you think about it, why would your customers (if they are horse owners) who never baled hay understand the ins and outs of handling hay or maximizing output. That is not their focus. They (if they are professional horse people) have a million things to worry about and occupy their focus in training and competing horses. Just a different world than cattle. I track bale usage by month for my main customers so we can have a reasonable conversation on their needs for the upcoming season-helps them, helps me with better numbers. They appreciate the support-getting off the box now


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> Jd if the are buying your hay why on earth would you tell them about a hay saver lol. Kinda like shooting yourself in the foot isnt it? More waste = more hay needed. More hay = more money for you.


They're NOT buying my hay.
My plan would be first suggesting to him a way I can save him money
1. Sell the the feeder and make a few bucks off the sale. 
2. Mention to him I have quality round bales I currently am selling right down the street. Would you be interested in buying a load of bales and trying out my hay?

He's not too clueless. He actually has someone in there round baling about 10 acres of hay. Not enough to feed his herd, but some hay of his own. Would like to become his farmer and supplier. 
I think best way to do it is to show him how to save money first. Gain trust, build relationship as Dead Moose and Hayman 1 suggest.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I have told my customers I use hay nets. They just contort their face like retards. Like Im the stupid ass. Thats why I dont suggest things anymore. Remember the customers are always right even if that means they waste half the hay. I used to have you guys attitude but guys had no loyalty so I just worry about selling hay. I dont care what they do with it.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Interesting line of thought in above posts.

A couple of weeks ago, one of my long time customers called me. He had been buying hay from me for years, but last year he found a supplier who sold him "low cost" hay, so he didn't buy any hay from me.

Seems that the "low cost" hay didn't work out so good. He said he knew he could count on my quality, price, etc., He bought 6 BR bales and committed to 12 more.

My philosophy: Treat your customers right and the good customers may wander, but they'll always come back! (Bad customers you don't want any way!)

Ralph


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Question I always get and has been on here as well . customer will consider rounds for dairy has scale on mixer .Tmr mix calls for 1025 pounds of hay.. bales weigh 860 each can you tell him an easy way to split the 2nd bale and get the exact amount in mixer with rounds.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> Interesting line of thought in above posts.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, one of my long time customers called me. He had been buying hay from me for years, but last year he found a supplier who sold him "low cost" hay, so he didn't buy any hay from me.
> 
> ...


This is very true. I have buyers wander all the time. Then come back. Maybe others have wandered to low price hay and have felt to embarrassed to come back. Who knows? I have one lady that I had sold to for several years, but then I went to large squares. She calls me now every spring for the last 2 years asking if I'm going to do small bales again. I say sorry not this year, but get yourself a hay fork for your little loader tractor and I'll sell you all you want and I'm sure you will like it. She just won't even look into a hay fork for their little tractor that could handle 3x3 bale. So now she has to go look for hay every year when she could just buy a $500 hay fork.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Many harvest plain grass on average native grass here 3 ton per year max most times a little less . alfalfa orchard grass mix 5 to 8 ton per year and the hay is worth $100 a ton more . Not to change subject but just to mention there are other ways to increase profit .


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

endrow said:


> Question I always get and has been on here as well . customer will consider rounds for dairy has scale on mixer .Tmr mix calls for 1025 pounds of hay.. bales weigh 860 each can you tell him an easy way to split the 2nd bale and get the exact amount in mixer with rounds.


Most everyone grinds hay here if they are using a mixer wagon.Grind it into a commodity shed and load into the mixer exactly what you need.

I've seen where a guy with vertical mixer would put the hay in the mixer and then run back off on a pile to leave the correct amount in the mixer.So say he needed 1500 lbs of hay and had 1000 lb bales.Put 2 bales in then run off 500 lbs after processed.

I've seen guys run it threw bale processor first also onto a pile and then load into feeder wagon.

Also seen where guys with lg sqrs need about 1.5 bales per load and just scoop 1/2 a bale up in loader and dump in vertical mixer after takeing strings off.

There are many ways it can be done!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Stupid is as stupid does cy  Endrow what we used to do was put in hay first. Put 2 bales in and grind them and then put out enough to get to the right weight in a little pile and use it on the next batch. Or they could chop a bunch of bale with the wagon to do say a week if they have a covered spot to put it then just scoop up what they need


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Lol cy great minds think alike


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Around here the price difference is so little between rounds and idiot cubes it doesn't pay to make idiot cubes unless you have a commitment from someone to take the idiot cubes at a high price. I still like to put up a few thousand idiot cubes every year so I don't forget how much work they are. Nostalgia I guess...

Last fall I was selling some good hay in big rounds for $230 -$250 per bale to my goat milking customers. Price depends on location with hay more than any other commodity.

I don't understand the concept of giving the good hay to the horses. My horses stay in condition eating ditch hay and corn stalks. I'd much rather give the good hay to the cows or sell it.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

barnrope said:


> Around here the price difference is so little between rounds and idiot cubes it doesn't pay to make idiot cubes unless you have a commitment from someone to take the idiot cubes at a high price. I still like to put up a few thousand idiot cubes every year so I don't forget how much work they are. Nostalgia I guess...
> 
> Last fall I was selling some good hay in big rounds for $230 -$250 per bale to my goat milking customers. Price depends on location with hay more than any other commodity.
> 
> I don't understand the concept of giving the good hay to the horses. My horses stay in condition eating ditch hay and corn stalks. I'd much rather give the good hay to the cows or sell it.


I don't have horses, but like you I don't understand feeding them the most perfect hay in the world either. But I'm sure glad most of my customers like to feed expansive hay to hay burners.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Teslan said:


> I don't have horses, but like you I don't understand feeding them the most perfect hay in the world either. But I'm sure glad most of my customers like to feed expansive hay to hay burners.


The only reason I feed the best hay to mine is I breed thoroughbreds. With them its all about making a good solid horse that can go fast and hold up to training by age 2 so in my case I feed good 2nd cut alfalfa. Its high in calcium which promotes good and strong bones to hold up to training. I see other breeders feed junk hay and their horses dont hold up. In our business if you get a reputation of selling horses that dont hold up your done. If you get the reputation of selling tough horses you get a premium. Could be the difference of $50k. As far as backyard donkeys go they just need plain average hay.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

I don't understand the concept of giving the good hay to the horses. My horses stay in condition eating ditch hay and corn stalks. I'd much rather give the good hay to the cows or sell it.

Well I can tell right off you have more cows than horses in your area. In overly horsey areas its almost a competition to feed the best hay to horses. And make it known who is feeding or selling lousy stuff for horses. I don't agree, in fact I try to talk horse customers out of 2nd crop, there is no need, especially with how much grain is being fed out, most horses around here need hay for roughage, not feed value.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> The only reason I feed the best hay to mine is I breed thoroughbreds. With them its all about making a good solid horse that can go fast and hold up to training by age 2 so in my case I feed good 2nd cut alfalfa. Its high in calcium which promotes good and strong bones to hold up to training. I see other breeders feed junk hay and their horses dont hold up. In our business if you get a reputation of selling horses that dont hold up your done. If you get the reputation of selling tough horses you get a premium. Could be the difference of $50k. As far as backyard donkeys go they just need plain average hay.


I make all good hay. I feed our horses and the boarder horses whatever I have not sold to someone else at 6$/bale. But like Ontario says, horses in competition work (as opposed to pleasure horses) need to be well kept nutritionally, if you don't, you won't be competitive. It is really that simple, realizing that some are easier to keep than others. If you are competing an off the track TB, it can be a bear.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Several famous horsemen have made this comment: "Most horses are overfed, over weight and underutilized." I agree.

About 80% of all horses in the USA are now owned by women. Many women have a tendency to anthropomorphize, so they want their "babies" to be well fed and not have to "work" or be disciplined, i.e., have manners and respect.

Just my thoughts....

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Funny story:
No matter how I try, there's one older couple near me that is very polite, but won't buy my hay. I showed them how much they could save buying round bales. She politely said " ooohhhh, that's nice, but we buy hay for $3/bale picked up in the field." She also said she heard RB hay is not as good of quality of hay. 
Well, I finally found this "field". It was a strip of weeds in between 2 corn fields full of grass mixed with JUNK. 
She's getting a good price, but she's buying natural grass mixed with weeds and not even sweated in a barn, bringing them home from the field and feeding them.. 
Of course the horses are her "babies" and she "knows small squares are better quality" for them. 
Lol.....I guess there's some people you just can't reach.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> Several famous horsemen have made this comment: "Most horses are overfed, over weight and underutilized." I agree.
> 
> About 80% of all horses in the USA are now owned by women. Many women have a tendency to anthropomorphize, so they want their "babies" to be well fed and not have to "work" or be disciplined, i.e., have manners and respect.
> 
> ...


I'm a wuss for animals also. If I had horses/cows/livestock I would want them to have an enclosed stable for when the weather is cold, rainy or snowing (In Colorado they don't have to have this and survive nicely) even though I have seen many horses standing out in the rain, snow, hail, cold despite having a nice stable to go into 10 feet away.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

anthropomorphize

And I have a new word of the day. Thanks Ralph!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

And what my obviously more sophisticated friends does anthropomorphize mean? Lol


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> And what my obviously more sophisticated friends does anthropomorphize mean? Lol


To attribute human characteristics to something non-human.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Funny story:
> No matter how I try, there's one older couple near me that is very polite, but won't buy my hay. I showed them how much they could save buying round bales. She politely said " ooohhhh, that's nice, but we buy hay for $3/bale picked up in the field." She also said she heard RB hay is not as good of quality of hay.
> Well, I finally found this "field". It was a strip of weeds in between 2 corn fields full of grass mixed with JUNK.
> She's getting a good price, but she's buying natural grass mixed with weeds and not even sweated in a barn, bringing them home from the field and feeding them..
> ...


We ain't got no horsey customers like that here JD......least I ain't met em'......they want the best and weeds are taboo........

I'm like Ontario, I don't give a Damn what they do with it once they I buy it....don't even try to offer suggestions lessen they ask for it...

Lady I sell squares to....last year, I'm feeling kinda bad for these people, they're buying about 45 bales a week, don't look like they have a pot to piss in....so I had a few bundles of hay that had gotten a brief shower while loaded on the truck, feed up the top bales quick, middle and bottom should be fine, told her I would sell it to her for $3 a bale delivered.....her response..."no I'd prefer not to have any rained on hay". O.K. Fine by me.....


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

8350HiTech said:


> To attribute human characteristics to something non-human.


Otherwise known as Disneyfication effect. All animals, sing, dance and interact better than humans.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

But Dill, is that you singing "it's a small, small world afterall"??


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

Well one easy answer as to why people want the best hay for their horse is they are more of a pet then livestock . Not really a answer but just take a look at all the high priced dog and cat food , some of the meds they get at the vet for them they just go nuts . So it's not to hard to see why a lot of folks want the best hay they can buy .

Not mine to question it , just try to supply it !


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Strange enough JD3430, that hay with weeds in it likely would test out better than if it was sprayed off with broadleafs and not fertilized / limed.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> Several famous horsemen have made this comment: "Most horses are overfed, over weight and underutilized." I agree.
> 
> About 80% of all horses in the USA are now owned by women. Many women have a tendency to anthropomorphize, so they want their "babies" to be well fed and not have to "work" or be disciplined, i.e., have manners and respect.
> 
> ...


Kinda just like how they raise their two legged kids as well...no manners or respect.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

While I think this is a really important topic to many of us, clearly from the response this thread has generated, we are all over stuffed, over heated and in great need of spring to start. I know for myself that I am now out picking up sticks because I am stir crazy. What a winter! I am ready to paint one field green just to remember what it looks like. :huh:


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Your right about this winter Hayman....but soon it will be a memory...and this year has been outstanding for hay sales here.

Regards, Mike


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

The years roll by faster and faster . I'll be thinking that I want to do this or that different next season . Then dam it's came and went !


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

8350HiTech said:


> To attribute human characteristics to something non-human.


Sounds like a fancy word for "personify".


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> Strange enough JD3430, that hay with weeds in it likely would test out better than if it was sprayed off with broadleafs and not fertilized / limed.


Yup, that's right. I just find it funny she'll pay about the same for weed-laden non sweated hay as my relatively clean, sweated hay. And she has ability to handle round bales.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Them horsey people are a funny bunch have a few neighbors that are. As far as our hay most is round baled. Been using the hay the cows don't clean up and using it for bedding better for the soil and somatic cell count went from 250-275,000 to 150,000 compared to sawdust bedding. To me that is not wasting it

I would sell by the ton or price it by weight atleast. Saw some hay advertised here for 2.75 a small square and 35 and up for rounds. Seems to be alot of hay in these parts this year


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## alison farms (Jan 17, 2013)

Round bale everything in the field. Bring bales to shed and reprocess into small squares when customer needs them with Alison Bale Converter check alisonfarms.com


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

alison farms said:


> Round bale everything in the field. Bring bales to shed and reprocess into small squares when customer needs them with Alison Bale Converter check alisonfarms.com


Sorry Alison F-love your machine, but don't want to work that hard to re-engineer my op.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

alison farms said:


> Round bale everything in the field. Bring bales to shed and reprocess into small squares when customer needs them with Alison Bale Converter check alisonfarms.com


I would be really worried about leaf loss with alfalfa.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> I would be really worried about leaf loss with alfalfa.


 Even on grass hay I think there would be quite a bit of leaf shatter with a bale converter. It may not be as noticeable with grass but all the chaff would be leaves. I just bought 300 bales of orchard grass that had been rebaled and it is not as good as what I square baled in the field....less leaf and the hay is quite dry and dusty. The only thing I would want to convert from round to square on a regular basis would be straw.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I actually have the perfect setup for square bales if I wanted back into them. The barn one of my customers lets me use is setup to hold massive amounts of small squares and the field around it is excellent first cutting (gets summer grasses in it 2nd cut). Makes me wonder if I should do 500-1000 small squares each cutting. Every time I think about it, I'm like .....nah, just RB it.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

I'd go for it JD lol. Storing it's half the battle and you get good money for small sqs down your way. I was averaging $6/bale for my 2nd n 3rd cut pure orchard. I market it all to alpaca farms and even one llama farm. They pay premium price where as horse folks are only max at $5. I'm a small hobby hay maker but unlike some have stated, I'm not one of them that will sell good hay for cheap. Yea I enjoy it but my time is worth something. I sell all my prime hay and usually store 2nd cut mixed grass with some weeds for our horses. I really should spend the money for an applicator. I really only need it for my 1st cut orchard.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

In 2011 I was forced to bale both RBs and small bales at the same time to get the field baled before the hay became too dry t bale,

Baled side by side & starting at 65% humidity the RB's Crude Protein was 2% lower than the square bales.

HERE I have more leaf shatter in bermudagrass than with alfalfa. But bermudagrass starts with 60% leaves compared with alfalfa's 50%.

Rebaling RB to Sq you will be first loosing 2% CP and again loosing another hand full of protein. You can cut it and slice it any way you want but even dampening the RB hay there will be a good bit of DM & Quality lost in the transition.

In the old days I knew small bale farmers who would have 3 to 5 balers running every night. When he transitioned to large squares he had one baler in the field and did some small bales as a favor to friends,

Now there are hay growers with 3 or more 4X4X8 square balers running each night. They have more ground in pivot tracks than I bale.

That said if you are happy with the results and the end customer is happy, go for it.

It is unfortunate that the typical horse owning hay buyer knows so little about hay.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'll conceed to your experience that an RB from a field has 2% less protein than a small square baled from the same field.

However, if I'm selling my customer hay for $175/ton in a RB and the small square competitor is selling 45lb $6 small squares for $270/ton, who is selling the customer more protein?

I bet Im giving the customer not only more hay for their money, but even with a 2% lower protein level, more protein, too.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I'll conceed to your experience that an RB from a field has 2% less protein than a small square baled from the same field.
> However, if I'm selling my customer hay for $175/ton in a RB and the small square competitor is selling 45lb $6 small squares for $270/ton, who is selling the customer more protein?
> I bet Im giving the customer not only more hay for their money, but even with a 2% lower protein level, more protein, too.


You're wrong JD, by the time you factor in normal loss due to waste.....
Bottom line....if squares is what they want, square is what you need to make....damn a bunch of educating, sell em what they want.....


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> I'll conceed to your experience that an RB from a field has 2% less protein than a small square baled from the same field.
> However, if I'm selling my customer hay for $175/ton in a RB and the small square competitor is selling 45lb $6 small squares for $270/ton, who is selling the customer more protein?
> I bet Im giving the customer not only more hay for their money, but even with a 2% lower protein level, more protein, too.


I won't concede to the 2% protein loss because.

With newer rd balers there is very little leaf loss if raked and baled correctly.The key is to make large windrows and bale at correct moisture with a dew if possible.I am done baleing a field with a rd baler before you would even start with a sq baler.And with the sq bales you see plenty of leaves falling on the ground once the hay is starting to get dry.

So the only way you could have 2% less protein is if you beat the leaves off.And to me that is a poor job of rd baleing.If it gets that dry I will shut it down weather permitting and bale it with the next dew.

I do see a lot of hay raked and baled when it is very dry in middle of afternoon and just cringe seeing them loose all the leaves and baleing sticks.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cy, when baling alfafla, I suppose that you make your determination to bale the next day based on the dryness of the stem the evening before?? How damp are the leaves when you begin to bale....slightly dry, damp or very damp. Just trying to pick up some long term advice....not really sure how much moisture a dry stem will take up to even the moisture % so that it will not mold. Also, what range is your time of day when you start baling...obviously later early season and earlier during the hotter season etc. and of course how heavy a dew one might have received, but just a ball park range. Between 10-12?? dependant on conditions.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Vol said:


> Cy, when baling alfafla, I suppose that you make your determination to bale the next day based on the dryness of the stem the evening before?? How damp are the leaves when you begin to bale....slightly dry, damp or very damp. Just trying to pick up some long term advice....not really sure how much moisture a dry stem will take up to even the moisture % so that it will not mold. Also, what range is your time of day when you start baling...obviously later early season and earlier during the hotter season etc. and of course how heavy a dew one might have received, but just a ball park range. Between 10-12?? dependant on conditions.
> 
> Regards, Mike


In the perfect world,weather permiting.Hay is V raked in the morning with a dew to minimize leaf loss.If to much dew it will rope,to dry leaf shatter.There are a few wet spots I it yet but the V rakeing fluffs it up and will dry it out usually pretty fast.The hay should get bone dry that afternoon 8-10%.Then I bale the next morning as the dew is comeing off.Baler monitor may read 20-30+ % but this is dew moisture,the stems are bone dry so it averages out and keeps without preservative.Depending how much dew we have I may start at 4-5 AM or if it is very damp I may have to wait till dew burns off a little on top of the windrow.Could be 8 Am,could be noon you never know!!When rd baleing after the dew has been on the windrow the top dries first and what is on the bottom dries last and that is what is on the outside of the bale as it is turning in the baler so you will have very little leaf loss doing it this way.If you bale in evening as dew is comeing on the top gets wet first and the bottom last and if you are baleing then the dry hay is on outside of the bale as it is turning and you will have way more leaf shatter.

In the end Mother Nature tells you when to bale.

But in my world this is how I try to get it done if at all possible.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

This is probably one of the more informative threads I have read. I think both cases can be supported. It interesting to see who is dedicated to small squares and who supports round bales.

Observations:

1. Seems to me that more protein loss can be attributed to improper tedding, raking and baling techniques or baling when too dry than what type of baler is used.

2. There's also what the customer wants, as mentioned above-"give the customer what they want". I never held a gun to a customer's head and forced them to buy RB's. They came to me. In MY area, horse farms are short on cash because of 5 yrs of bad economy. They are looking to cut costs wherever possible. RB's allow customer to buy disputably slightly lower quality hay (if it has been baled concienciously) to small squares at a 1/3 cost savings.

3. The customer can eliminate hand labor to stack, unstack, split open and feed small bales. This is especially true for one of my customers. He likes the fact that he can get a RB with skid steer out of barn and have it out in the field in a hay hut feeding 8 horses at once in 10 minutes, reducing his labor and costs.

I think we can all agree the above is generally accepted. Sounds like Ford versus Chevy versus Dodge dispute to me (splitting hairs) more than anything......


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> You're wrong JD, by the time you factor in normal loss due to waste.....
> Bottom line....if squares is what they want, square is what you need to make....damn a bunch of educating, sell em what they want.....


I'm not so sure. My customers use VERY efficient feeders. They waste very little hay.

Now if they went into a ring, yeah more waste, but now were talking cattle, right? Very few around here feed squares to cattle and I dont see anyone around here feed horses from a ring.

If I feed small squares in a ring, waste would be similar to RB, right?

I've got customers now who want to put a RB on a unroller in a barn and feed slivers off the RB into the stalls, too.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I could see a round baler that is twine tied losing a few more leaves than a net wrap baler since the bale rotates more as the twine is being applied which could account for a slightly less protein content.

For me I do not try to educate customers that round bales would save them some money as that would put me out of business.....small squares are my bread and butter. When people come to wanting round bales I try to tell them the benefits of small squares. That being said if round bales would bring a fair amount of money here and the customer wanted them I would start making some round hay again.....I really wish this would be the case so I would have the option of round baling some hay in certain circumstances like when dark clouds are on the horizon and you may not have time to get the square picked up. But why should I round bale just because some customers want them when I can make so much more money in squares. In my opinion round bales should only bring slightly less than small squares per ton.....the only difference is you have a little more labor involved in small squares.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I'm not so sure. My customers use VERY efficient feeders. They waste very little hay.
> Now if they went into a ring, yeah more waste, but now were talking cattle, right? Very few around here feed squares to cattle and I dont see anyone around here feed horses from a ring.
> If I feed small squares in a ring, waste would be similar to RB, right?
> 
> I've got customers now who want to put a RB on a unroller in a barn and feed slivers off the RB into the stalls, too.


?.....I've never squared for cows.....always roll for cows, unless some squares get rained on.....then I try to pawn em off on cattle folk....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> ?.....I've never squared for cows.....always roll for cows, unless some squares get rained on.....then I try to pawn em off on cattle folk....


Maybe I misunderstood you, You said RBs create more waste. What I took from that was you meant when the bale is fed, more goes on the ground than a small square.

What I was trying to say that if a RB feeder is used, there's very little waste.

The one Im looking at out my window might have 2-5% of the RB's I put in it on the ground.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I used to have to do a retarded amount of round bales to make the same profit as I do with squares. More wear and tear. More hours on the tractors. More fuel. Didnt make sense to me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> I used to have to do a retarded amount of round bales to make the same profit as I do with squares. More wear and tear. More hours on the tractors. More fuel. Didnt make sense to me.


Really?

Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. Way faster to bale up a field RB than sm sq for me, so less hours for me and tractor odometer. No labor needed, either. Hiring/paying/hoping they show up labor is the big one.

I can see maybe a bigger tractor, so more fuel consumption, but paying someone to stack, then load small squares blew away the cost of more fuel.

I can round bale 500 tons of hay as a one man operation, no bale wagons, expensive stack wagon, bale baron or laborers needed.

Now if I was real small time and only doing 500 sm sq per cutting, yeah Id be in small squares. Or if I had a family devoted to a farm business or bale baron stack wagon and drive-thru barns.

One thing we all have in common is all of us have different situations for labor, and, storage, equipment, demand for different types of hay, etc.

Im into RB's because I have demand for them and I want to work as a 1 man operation (for now)


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya I see your point but here for a long time a 800 lb round bale was $25. You pay $8 for the standing hay and then cut rake bale and haul it. Your making about 5 a bale. 5000 bales which I used to do I would make $25000. Barely worth my time. Now I make $3 a small square labor paid. So anything over 8300 bales is more money. Thats not counting the ton more hours on the tractor doing the round bales.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> Really?
> Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. Way faster to bale up a field RB than sm sq for me, so less hours for me and tractor odometer. No labor needed, either. Hiring/paying/hoping they show up labor is the big one.
> I can see maybe a bigger tractor, so more fuel consumption, but paying someone to stack, then load small squares blew away the cost of more fuel.
> 
> ...


Well said.

One thing we all have in common is we are all different.LOL.

Markets vary a lot across the country for different types of bales.Here there is not much difference if it is rd,lg or sm sq.Thats why I rd bale.I feel my costs are as low as I can get them.Low labor per ton.Stored outside so no building costs.What it comes down to is your net profit.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Really?
> 
> Wow, I was thinking just the opposite. Way faster to bale up a field RB than sm sq for me, so less hours for me and tractor odometer. No labor needed, either. Hiring/paying/hoping they show up labor is the big one.
> 
> ...


JD-wish I had your power of persuasion to be able to sell 4x5s of grass hay (mine is nice, not trash) for 75$ per. Still could not come close to the return on my acres with squares. I do all my own except one high school kid that helps stack trailers for transport. Like Ontario- to do the same net $, I would have to go after much more land to run which would be much more fertilizer, more herbicides, seed, fuel, and frankly, I am up against the maturity window now in the acres I cut to fit into the weather I get. So, I just don't see how to make the full time rb scenario work, which is why I asked this thread question in the first place. My hats off to ya for making it work for you!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Hayman1 said:


> JD-wish I had your power of persuasion to be able to sell 4x5s of grass hay (mine is nice, not trash) for 75$ per. Still could not come close to the return on my acres with squares. I do all my own except one high school kid that helps stack trailers for transport. Like Ontario- to do the same net $, I would have to go after much more land to run which would be much more fertilizer, more herbicides, seed, fuel, and frankly, I am up against the maturity window now in the acres I cut to fit into the weather I get. So, I just don't see how to make the full time rb scenario work, which is why I asked this thread question in the first place. My hats off to ya for making it work for you!


Thats the problem I had. To do 5000 bales I had 600 acres now I can make more money off 100 acres with small squares. I found it a big PITA getting over 600 acres in a couple weeks especially if the weather is bad. If I get a 10 day stretch of good weather I can get 10000 small squares cut baled and under cover easy.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Wow-we never, ever, ever get a 10 day stretch of good weather in prime hay season for first cutting when most of our tonnage is made. We're darn lucky if we get 2-3 batches of 3-4 days of good weather. You must be living better than me but I am too old to change.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> Ya I see your point but here for a long time a 800 lb round bale was $25. You pay $8 for the standing hay and then cut rake bale and haul it. Your making about 5 a bale. 5000 bales which I used to do I would make $25000. Barely worth my time. Now I make $3 a small square labor paid. So anything over 8300 bales is more money. Thats not counting the ton more hours on the tractor doing the round bales.


Yeah, but Im making $75/bale on properly baled hay. Even junk gets me $40/bale.

How you spend more hours on a tractor round baling a field compared to small baling a field is going to take me a long time to believe.

I did both for 2 years and th reason I gave up on the small squares was because it was so time consuming and labor intensive. And if I wanted to get rid of labor intensive, I had to buy an expensive bale baron. And if I bought a bale baron, I needed a drive thru barn capable of storing 2-300 tons of hay at a time. Sounds expensive.

I cant imagine a way to go cheaper overhead than a RB operation once we get past a hobby sized operation.

I dont think sm sq is inferior or objectionable in any way, just not a good fit for me since I can get good money for RB, have little help and limited storage.

Thats why I maintain what the best type of bale is best for you depends on your situation.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Jd- more hours because he was baling more acres to net same profit. (THERE).


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayman1 said:


> JD-wish I had your power of persuasion to be able to sell 4x5s of grass hay (mine is nice, not trash) for 75$ per. Still could not come close to the return on my acres with squares. I do all my own except one high school kid that helps stack trailers for transport. Like Ontario- to do the same net $, I would have to go after much more land to run which would be much more fertilizer, more herbicides, seed, fuel, and frankly, I am up against the maturity window now in the acres I cut to fit into the weather I get. So, I just don't see how to make the full time rb scenario work, which is why I asked this thread question in the first place. My hats off to ya for making it work for you!


Thanks, and I agree with you, like you said-a BIG factor is what you can sell and what you can sell it for.

I have actually sold quite a bit for $80/roll. I'm still trying to get to MLappin's level of like $300/ton!!!! I could retire a happy cowboy.

I cant afford to turn my 1-man operation into sm squares. Bale baron too expensive and cant build those huge expensive barns needed to keep 'em pretty. Besides, because of the recession, most of my buyers want CHEAP reasonably good hay.

Remember, Im a 1st gen farmer. No land and only one medium size rented barn. I have no land or buildings really to speak of.

Bottom line: I'd be out of business or in traction in a hospital bed if I did idiot cubes.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> Jd- more hours because he was baling more acres to net same profit. (THERE).


Oh, I thought he meant given same say 100 acres that sm sq was faster than RB. Thanks.

However, even if I had to do the current load of property I have now, I value my lower stress lifestyle and realize my lack of indoor storage are my 2 factors that keep me in round bales.

Smaller capital investment, zero labor requirements and having eager buyers for $75/RB hay are 3 more important factors.

My guess is if I came from a dedicated farm family with lots of acreage, family owned storage barns, I'd be on your side.

I hope to get a building up one day somewhere, then I might consider going back to some sm sqs.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Can you have them pick them up in the field? What are small squares bringing there. I dont understand it here. Small squares are 200/ton more then rounds. I just go with what makes me the most money. Im not rich or well off. We have 22 acres with a good barn. I used old crap equipment for years then I figured I was more productive with a new baler. Im not scared of work (not implying you are  ) some summers I lose 40 lb or more. It all worth it if I have more jingle in my jeans.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Hayman1 said:


> Wow-we never, ever, ever get a 10 day stretch of good weather in prime hay season for first cutting when most of our tonnage is made. We're darn lucky if we get 2-3 batches of 3-4 days of good weather. You must be living better than me but I am too old to change.


Lol last year wasnt like that but most years we get up to 2 weeks of sun at hay time. We usually cut 20 acres every morning and bale and haul in the afternoon. Works good


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> Can you have them pick them up in the field? What are small squares bringing there. I dont understand it here. Small squares are 200/ton more then rounds. I just go with what makes me the most money. Im not rich or well off. We have 22 acres with a good barn. I used old crap equipment for years then I figured I was more productive with a new baler. Im not scared of work (not implying you are  ) some summers I lose 40 lb or more. It all worth it if I have more jingle in my jeans.


Lordy, I was right there until you lost 40#. Used to be me, this winter running the remote has been a bear. Hope to get out now regularly. Have 30ac I own and now have all relatively new equipment-that has taken a long time but I can't complain-life is good and the only thing better than a good smelling bale is plowing in the evening in Oct-just does not get better than that! I have 5 kicker wagons and the plan is this year load them, then rb the rest. Put them in the shed and have a drink. sounds like a good way to live the rest of my life.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> Can you have them pick them up in the field? What are small squares bringing there. I dont understand it here. Small squares are 200/ton more then rounds. I just go with what makes me the most money. Im not rich or well off. We have 22 acres with a good barn. I used old crap equipment for years then I figured I was more productive with a new baler. Im not scared of work (not implying you are  ) some summers I lose 40 lb or more. It all worth it if I have more jingle in my jeans.


Guy down the road sells sm 45lb sqs of baled weeds for $3-4/bale. That would be one of my local competitors. As someone said earlier, if only our buyers knew more about hay. My RBs are far better quality hay than his sm sqs. 
There's a couple other guys who sell for 5-6/ bale. One guy gets $8 for good stuff, but thats stacked in customers barn. 
I sold for sm sqs for $5/bale and found that getting beat down by horse ***** on a Sunday on price, then loading their trucks and trailers for them just wasn't worth all the "extra income". 
RB's are so easy to load from an air conditioned tractor. Buyer is usually more of a big operator. Usually comes during the work week. Has more common sense, straps load down while I'm loading the next row. 
It just works better for me. Sure I wish it paid a little better, but last season I sold like 1/2 my hay to mushroom at $40/ bale because it didnt meet my standards. I hope in years to come to make more quality hay with applicator and more experience and sell for bigger $.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey JD consider yourself lucky to get $40 a bale for crap hay, its been hard here to sell good hay the last few years for that. Most people here just want cheap hay. They dont understand that better quality higher protein more energy hay their animal will eat less so they can afford to pay more. Infact sometimes in the end it can be cheaper for them. Over the last few years I have learned most people around here really dont know what good hay is. They just think it is green.

I had some feed test from last year and this year. The hay tested pretty much the same. We changed the fertilizer program a bit. The rain on hay was just as good as the non rained on hay. Now have someone come out and look at the hay that does not know about feed tests they would think Iam yanking there chain telling them this half yellow hay is just as good as this green hay. But feed tests dont lie.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

We round bale most of our hay fits our operation well for less labor and can cover three times+ the ground than squares plus they can get some rain and be okay and same with bailing a bit damp just leave in the field to sweat. Usually get a 5-7 day stretch of weather at a time

This thread sounds like friendly arguments me and my ex girlfriend used to have lol. They farm a bit differently than we do. Like most everyone on here does compared to each other


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Oh and we square bale just to make better and most use of barn space


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bgriffin856 said:


> Oh and we square bale just to make better and most use of barn space


I am actually going to have a buddy of mine that does some sm sqs try to bale up some of my best stuff near the barn into sm sqs. He will do it for maybe $3/bale. I have some loft space in the barn where it could be stored. Only issue is if he'll be available when I'm ready for him. 
I have to be disciplined enough not to sell it during the summer and wait until its hard to get in winter.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

$3 for just the baling? Throw some dirt on your tractor, he must think you're made of money.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

8350HiTech said:


> $3 for just the baling? Throw some dirt on your tractor, he must think you're made of money.


Ya thats what im thinking. I charge buddies a buck a bale and enemies 1.50 . Why not just go to a sale and buy a half decent jalopy for a grand?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Pennsylvania/Publications/Machinery_Custom_Rates/2013%20CustomRates.pdf

PA custom rate guide. Always handy.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> http://www.nass.usda.gov/Statistics_by_State/Pennsylvania/Publications/Machinery_Custom_Rates/2013%20CustomRates.pdf
> PA custom rate guide. Always handy.


While I'll agree that $3 is too much, according to that piece of paper, you can get it cut, raked, baled and stored for $2.16, that's laughable.....musta been one of them scientific types writing that research......


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I dont know what they do there but up here every custom operator submits their rates and they average them.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> I dont know what they do there but up here every custom operator submits their rates and they average them.


Probably, surely they just throw in a number in on those rates I'm not sure anyone can even figure that one.....probably why it's so low, wish they was down here, I'd sell the equipment and hire their ass and put mucho dinero in pocket....


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

make a deal either by the bale or by the hour, which ever comes out in your favor. If paying by the hour have a min bales say 100 or so. That way they wont take there time. Just some ideas.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> I dont know what they do there but up here every custom operator submits their rates and they average them.


Everyone gets a form. You fill in what you charge for whatever you might provide OR you fill in what you pay for someone to do your work. Then they average them, yadda yadda.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> While I'll agree that $3 is too much, according to that piece of paper, you can get it cut, raked, baled and stored for $2.16, that's laughable.....musta been one of them scientific types writing that research......


Once you get done laughing, you might want to rethink that. Assuming a cutting yielding just 50 bales per acre and therefore a gross income to the custom operator of $108: (50 bales x $2.16)

Mowing: $16
Raking: $9
Baling:$50
________
$75

That leaves $32 for labor to store 50 bales. Figuring two slightly ambitious men can store 150 bales per hour with a drink break included, you could pay them over $40/hr and still easily come in under $2.16. Of course, the AVERAGE is 2.16 so that means someone is doing it for less than 2.16. That guy is too cheap but $2.16 guy has not lost his mind. Also factor in that PA is a crazy competitive custom work state.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Once you get done laughing, you might want to rethink that. Assuming a cutting yielding just 50 bales per acre and therefore a gross income to the custom operator of $108: (50 bales x $2.16)
> Mowing: $16
> Raking: $9
> Baling:$50
> ...


I don't need to rethink it......I'm too busy trying to get in touch with them, no one is answering the phone tho, think it got disconnected....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> $3 for just the baling? Throw some dirt on your tractor, he must think you're made of money.


No that's stacked in the barn, but thanks again for the laugh....
Mowing, tedding, raking, baling and stacking hay in a barn for $3 sounds pretty reasonable to me hitech8350, but if you don't think so, I guess we'll have to disagree....
I'll scrape the salt residue off to make room for the dirt, I'm out salting right now.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

From Iowa custom rate survey 2013 Avg-low -High

Harvesting Forages
Hay - mowing, / acre
$11.45
9.00
-
15.00
- conditioning, / acre
11.95
10.00
-
14.00
- mowing/conditioning, / acre
13.00
10.00
-
15.00
- raking, / acre
6.25
2.50
-
10.00
- windrowing, / acre
12.50
10.00
-
15.00
- tedding, / acre
6.10
4.00
-
10.00
Swathing hay or small grain, / acre
13.50
11.50
-
15.00
Hay baling - small square, / bale
0.60
0.35
-
1.00
- large square, / bale
10.45
8.00
-
12.00
- large round w/o wrap, / bale
10.95
9.00
-
13.50
- large round with wrap, / bale
11.85
9.00
-
16.00
Straw or corn stalk baling
- large round or square w/o wrap, / bale
11.70
10.00
-
14.00
- large round or square w/ wrap, / bale
13.00
10.00
-
17.50


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/busdev/2012customratesa3.htm
This is our government rates.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> No that's stacked in the barn, but thanks again for the laugh....
> Mowing, tedding, raking, baling and stacking hay in a barn for $3 sounds pretty reasonable to me hitech8350, but if you don't think so, I guess we'll have to disagree....
> I'll scrape the salt residue off to make room for the dirt, I'm out salting right now.


You can pay him whatever you please!  But I'm going to break it down just to point out how silly $3 may seem.

Given a budget of $3/bale he's getting paid:

$25/ac mowing
$15/ ac raking
$15/ ac tedding 
$75 baling ($1.50/bale)

Which still leaves $20 labor to stack 50 bales. At two men who can do 150 bales per hour, they're both still taking home $30 hourly. Any bale over 50 per acre, they're making even more money.

If you only have him do a very few acres, I can see him charging $3 as sort of a hassle fee. If he's doing much volume for you, well, I'm sure he'll be happy to get all of the work at those rates that he can get.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I bet he'll come get it done for ya when ya need it, sob has to want some meat every once in a while.....gets old eatin mayo sandwiches and tons of carbs too....


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> I bet he'll come get it done for ya when ya need it, sob has to want some meat every once in a while.....gets old eatin mayo sandwiches and tons of carbs too....


I have seen the light! From now on I will generously overpay for services even when I know the going rate.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> I have seen the light! From now on I will generously overpay for services even when I know the going rate.


I've run a successful construction business for 30 years. 
I have lots of those books, guides and charts in my office.
They do a great job gathering dust because most of them were made by guys who sit on the porch and watch, while others actually do the work. I bet the same goes with farming. I'd rather go with intuition and experience than a book or a chart.

How do you know my field and barn layout? 
How do you know my hay isn't in a flood plain requiring extra tedding?
How do you know my barn doesn't have difficult access?

Difference between me and you is I realize everyone's situation is different and in my situation, I might have to pay $3/bale to do a complete job from cutting to stacked in a barn, maybe you don't.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I've run a successful construction business for 30 years.
> I have lots of those books, guides and charts in my office.
> They do a great job gathering dust because most of them were made by guys who sit on the porch and watch, while others actually do the work. I bet the same goes with farming. I'd rather go with intuition and experience than a book or a chart.
> 
> ...


Actually they poll every farmer in the state and keep bugging you until you send it back. Maybe they're missing you somehow.

Also, I made my second set of numbers above the reported high rates. Above. (Except for baling) That, in most cases, should account for hassles of awkward fields or barns.

Hey, as I mentioned, pay him whatever you can agree upon. There is, however, a certain irony when all of you guys who are so gung-ho about the free market and no minimum wage turn when I point out that someone is likely to work cheaper. Then all of a sudden it's the poor farmer eating mayo sandwiches. If the going rate forces him toward mayo, your philosophies should have you telling him "Bon appetite". I don't want to turn this into a boiler room rant though, so carry on regarding the economics issue.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Doesn't answer my questions. 
How do you know my particular situation doesn't merit $3/bale?
Maybe my situation isn't on your "chart".

Another example:

I called a mason one time to give me a bid on a foundation for a large barn & garage that was too big for me to do. 
He said "mail me the plans and I'll give you a bid".
Shortly thereafter, I had my usual "open inspection" day, where any subs invited to come out to inspect the job site and make sure they could see the ease/difficulty of the layout before they submit final bid.
He chose not to attend and submitted what I thought was a low bid. 
I asked him once again to come out and have a look. He declined.

On the day when he showed up after I dug the foundation, he did nothing but cry and complain about the poor access, topography and "how much $ he was going to lose" because of the difficult conditions. I reminded him of the 2 opportunities he had to inspect job site. He realized it was his problem and he finished the job without a problem.

The same thing could be said about your books and charts.
They ain't worth a pile of rotted hay unless you come out and inspect the job, then bid accordingly.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

See my edited post. I went off the chart by "charging" 25 for mowing and so on.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If you are having him do a small volume or travel a long way, I agree that the chart won't come into play very accurately. Which is why, if it were me, I'd do my own mowing and such and just have him do the baling. Saves him the hassle of transporting extra equipment to your field when you might already have it there.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Like I tell the car dealers when I buy a new car....the book ain't never bought a car...I've bought a bunch of em

But back to the economics of squares, just loaded a lady today that drove from savannah (190 miles one way) to buy premium quality squares. She didn't mind it a bit, said she had heard thru the horseyvine that I had beautiful Bermuda hay in small squares and she wanted 500 bales......that's what she wants....that's what she gets. It's a pita dealing with squares, lots of capital input, but at the end of the season Im gonna be sold out as for new customers....have to keep back a certain number to keep current customers happy, happy, happy....

Before, i would still have a near worthless pile of rounds out in the field hoping I can get SOME of my input costs back.....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

On another note....I bet the guys doing cutting, raking, baling, storing for $2 would put your ass on the back burner to get to another mans fields willing to pay an honest price for honest days work......kinda like waitresses when I go out to eat....never have a problem getting good service, they remember. I learned a long time ago that cheaper isn't always better....that's why I farm with a Deere, drive a ford, and fly a Cessna, sometimes, ya get what ya pay for.....free market be damned, it really has absolutely nothing to do with your choice of people you do business with, I pay more for lots of stuff that I could buy cheaper elsewhere...... A good example, Wally World.....(sorry, didn't mean to engage in name calling, so juvenile)


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> Like I tell the car dealers when I buy a new car....the book ain't never bought a car...I've bought a bunch of em
> But back to the economics of squares, just loaded a lady today that drove from savannah (190 miles one way) to buy premium quality squares. She didn't mind it a bit, said she had heard thru the horseyvine that I had beautiful Bermuda hay in small squares and she wanted 500 bales......that's what she wants....that's what she gets. It's a pita dealing with squares, lots of capital input, but at the end of the season Im gonna be sold out as for new customers....have to keep back a certain number to keep current customers happy, happy, happy....
> Before, i would still have a near worthless pile of rounds out in the field hoping I can get SOME of my input costs back.....


You had me completely until the end. I keep my round bales stored inside in a dry environment and bale my round bales with with intent of making the same quality of hay as if I were to sm sq bale it.

I feel like I'm lucky to have a couple buyers who like quality hay in a round bale form. 
If I didn't, I'd either be doing less acreage of sm squares or 3-500 acres of large squares of crappy mushroom hay.
I kind of just fell into doing round bales. I bought a used round baler to clean up mushroom hay around the edges so at least my crappy hay could bring $40/bale. 
When I started to get calls for quality hay in round bale form, I saw an opportunity and went for it.

I've got a call into a farm with 20 belted galloways that needs a feeder and Good RB hay. I'm keeping my fingers crossed because this could be an excellent customer and could put me in a place to sell 1000 4x5's at $75-80/ bale when combined with my existing customers. 
Probably not a lot of gross income to some of you guys, but plenty for me when I factor in snowplowing, field mowing and other projects I do. 
I'm very optimistic.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

1000 bales for 20 cows? Does he bed with hay to? I didnt use close to that on 50 cows. Math went wrong somewhere I think.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> 1000 bales for 20 cows? Does he bed with hay to? I didnt use close to that on 50 cows. Math went wrong somewhere I think.


That's hilarious. Yep your math and hi tech8350's math is wrong. 
1000 bales for ALL customers, including guy with 20 head.

"I've got a call into a farm with 20 belted galloways that needs a feeder and Good RB hay. I'm keeping my fingers crossed because this could be an excellent customer and could put me in a place to sell 1000 4x5's at $75-80/ bale *when combined with my existing customers. "*


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Lol I mis read it. I thought you meant selling 1000 plus what you currently sell lol


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ontario hay man said:


> Lol I mis read it. I thought you meant selling 1000 plus what you currently sell lol


No problem, it did give me a laugh of a cold day, though


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> I learned a long time ago that cheaper isn't always better....that's why I farm with a Deere, drive a ford, and fly a Cessna, sometimes, ya get what ya pay for.....


I will agree, although I will be trading the Cessna in for a Piper very soon!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> On another note....I bet the guys doing cutting, raking, baling, storing for $2 would put your ass on the back burner to get to another mans fields willing to pay an honest price for honest days work......kinda like waitresses when I go out to eat....never have a problem getting good service, they remember. I learned a long time ago that cheaper isn't always better....that's why I farm with a Deere, drive a ford, and fly a Cessna, sometimes, ya get what ya pay for.....free market be damned, it really has absolutely nothing to do with your choice of people you do business with, I pay more for lots of stuff that I could buy cheaper elsewhere...... A good example, Wally World.....(sorry, didn't mean to engage in name calling, so juvenile)


I agree with everything you said except about the Ford....my DuraMax is better than a Ford diesel....and that includes their new one. 

Regards, Mike


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

My Cummins is better then both put together.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

ontario hay man said:


> My Cummins is better then both put together.


The cummins part may be some better, but the dodge part sure as heck is not better. 

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

There is just no substitute for Cummins, period. Owned 3 of them, hardly broke in at 250K. Wish Dodge could also make a body to go with the cummins. Maybe my 2007 will be different than the 93. unfortunately, too much torque in low gears for snow and ice, but that is why we have wood stoves. That torque sure is nice with loaded hay trailers.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

My dream truck would have a ford front end on a dodge body and Cummins motor with an Allison transmission. Might go at building one someday.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Dodge body??? 
You sure you're done celebrating the Canadian gold medal for hockey?


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Lol no. What wrong with dodge body. Cant tell me the cab of a ford is nicer then dodge. I like the look of the exterior to.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Prius owners poop their green pants seeing this coming at them.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I actually like the Ford cab and body better. Crazy big inside and better quality.
No doubt on the Cummins motor. Crap I wish it was an 8.3 lol


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ford interiors always seemed a year or 2 behind. More basic imo.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I think the latest style Ford has the nicest interior going....especially the King Ranch series. The KR leather seats are unsurpassed. Lariat interiors are very nice also.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol, Knew I would ruffle some feathers with those pics  all in funnin ya...

But back to squares vs. rounds economically speaking of course, you are very lucky to have horsey customers who buy quality hay in rounds, it's definitely not the norm.....like I said, some of my customers want rounds too....they get billed at $80 for a 900lb roll, if I had my druthers, I'd much rather do rounds than squares, tons more capital outlay for squares, but at the end of the season, I'm beating my head against the wall trying to sell against 30-40$ bales of grass, looks just like mine from bout 30ft.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> I think the latest style Ford has the nicest interior going....especially the King Ranch series. The KR leather seats are unsurpassed. Lariat interiors are very nice also.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I Like my KR expedition, seats still look good after 7 yrs and 240k....


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Guess we should start a thread called truck envy-wonder if bigger is better there too?

Back to r vs sq, did and analysis one year on a 12 ac field that I had rolled. Fertilizer alone cost $17.61 per roll or 39% of the cost of making the roll. I had not limed the field or sprayed it for several years. So, I figured that anyone selling rolls for under 30 was clearly not using lime, fertilizer or herbicides on the fields they were rolling. And from the distance, maybe even closer than 30' Dawg, you can't see that fertilizer. Makes it tough competing when you are making the good stuff unless you have loyal repeat customers. Best ones come to you after they saw your hay in someone elses barn and had to have some themselves!


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayman1 said:


> Guess we should start a thread called truck envy-wonder if bigger is better there too?
> 
> Back to r vs sq, did and analysis one year on a 12 ac field that I had rolled. Fertilizer alone cost $17.61 per roll or 39% of the cost of making the roll. I had not limed the field or sprayed it for several years. So, I figured that anyone selling rolls for under 30 was clearly not using lime, fertilizer or herbicides on the fields they were rolling. And from the distance, maybe even closer than 30' Dawg, you can't see that fertilizer. Makes it tough competing when you are making the good stuff unless you have loyal repeat customers. Best ones come to you after they saw your hay in someone elses barn and had to have some themselves!


Had a VERY revealing conversation with a BIG hay seller a few counties north of me. He was selling a piece of equipment I am interested in and he and I got talking hay. 
He told me he makes 4x5 RB's with NO weed spray. He said he pays a few local kids $5/hr to pick out the biggest most obvious weeds, bags them and burns them, but confessed that his hay has plenty of weeds. 
He said his 4x5 bales weigh only ~500 LBS!!! He said he sells for $190/ton + delivery. It's advertised on his website at that price, so I don't think he was lying. 
If you want just 1-2 RBs picked up at his barn, he sells them for $75/ea loaded on your truck Saturday mornings ONLY.

So my competition is selling RB hay with no real regard to what's in it for $190/ton + delivery. I'm selling pretty clean hay for $175/ton. 
He's selling 500lb bales picked up at barn for $75/bale (he's really punishing those who bother him on a Saturday for picking up only a couple bales-I admire that).
I'm selling 850lb cleaner bales for $75/bale picked up most anytime.

I know I'm new in the business and need to get established, but there's the reason I sold out early. I'm too cheap. 
Now comes the uncomfortable task of telling my "golden goose" I need to raise my prices......
A risk I think I need to take. I need to be charging $200/ton for picked up at barn, or about $85/bale just to keep up with what he's charging.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Had a VERY revealing conversation with a BIG hay seller a few counties north of me. He was selling a piece of equipment I am interested in and he and I got talking hay.
> He told me he makes 4x5 RB's with NO weed spray. He said he pays a few local kids $5/hr to pick out the biggest most obvious weeds, bags them and burns them, but confessed that his hay has plenty of weeds.
> He said his 4x5 bales weigh only ~500 LBS!!! He said he sells for $190/ton + delivery. It's advertised on his website at that price, so I don't think he was lying.
> If you want just 1-2 RBs picked up at his barn, he sells them for $75/ea loaded on your truck Saturday mornings ONLY.
> ...


Hope you can make that work JD


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm not sure why he'd make light bales on purpose if he's selling by the ton. Seems extremely stupid. By the bale, I inderstand. Not that it's very honest, but I understand.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Also, unless he's selling hay in your area (or if others in your area are getting his price), I don't know that finding out his price is enough to have you raise yours. Maybe it is. Just saying maybe a little more market research is in order before you change price based on one guy a couple counties away.

I'd definitely take his Saturday-morning-or-no-hay-for-you policy, though. That would save some grief.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

He is in a enviable position, I bet he paid his dues to get there.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

SVFHAY said:


> He is in a enviable position, I bet he paid his dues to get there.


He's an old hand at it. I bet anyone here from eastern PA recognizes his name. He delivers a lot of hay. 
It almost knocked me over when he told me his prices were substantially higher than mine and that his hay was grass and weeds mixed together.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

500 pounds x 4 @ $75 is 300 a ton on Saturdays. Not to shabby. Is it 190 for larger loads. $110 a ton difference doesnt make much sense.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeah 190 for lg loads + delivery fee


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Maybe he is selling it based on feed value. Most weeds are high in energy protein etc. Most likely he just has his local market figured out.


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