# Going Organic



## Vol

It's really growing....I would consider "A" field of organic hay if I thought I could sell it here, but it would have to be advertised and sold to individuals and I would rather not have to deal with that .....I prefer to deal with mostly commercial accounts. I believe you could get at least 33% more for organic hay if it sells comparable to other organic products.

Regards, Mike

http://www.agweb.com/article/consumer-demand-grows-for-organic-products-NAA-associated-press/


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## Teslan

I've often wondered if you would get a lower production or more weeds that would equal that extra you could get for organic hay.


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## gradyjohn

I have a friend that tried going organic. Put out some fishey stuff. First time buzzards circled his field looking for something dead. Sounds good on paper. If all the farmers went organic half the US would starve. Works good on a small scale.

Mine is organic because of all the snow and rain but it ain't weed free.


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## IH 1586

About 30 acres I rent, the guy wants it organic so I am learning. Will be selling the hay as organic and for more $$ but if I have no buyers it will just be sold for the regular price.


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## Vol

IH 1586 said:


> but if I have no buyers it will just be sold for the regular price.


That's the thing.....it has to be advertised as "organic"....you have to seek the market....but, some organic users will/are ready to travel greater distances to acquire their desired product...and at a premium...maybe advertise in that Lancaster paper you folks have up there and add the cost of advertising plus a additional premium for associated costs.

Regards, Mike


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## IH 1586

I currently advertise in 2 weekly local papers and country folks which comes out of New York. Similar to Lancaster. I do need to add Lancaster to my list plus there there is one west of me also I should be advertising in.


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## 8350HiTech

If I was going organic, it would be dairy hay. The premium is better and it's all in big bales. A local guy farms 200 acres of mostly organic hay for dairies and there is plenty of demand for it. He's shipped hay as far as Indiana and Michigan. If advertising organic hay, I wouldn't dismiss the Lanc Farming or similar publications, but I'd probably focus on organic-only outlets.


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## Teslan

I agree that if going organic hay finding organic dairies to sell to would be the way to go. I would think selling organic hay to horse owners wouldn't be as viable. You would just have to appeal to the tree hugger owners. The horse doesn't care and I don't think there is any market premium for organic horses.


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## PaMike

Good demand for organic dairy hay. I don't know anyone other than dairy farms that buy organic hay...

I had sorghum Sudan baleage I was selling in the local paper for $45/bale. Neighbor had ORGANIC baleage of sorghum sudan he was also trying to sell in the same paper. I sold mine for $45/bale, he was down to $35/bale for his and it still didn't sell. He sold his for less and had less tonnage due to organic fertilizer rules...


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## mlappin

Have a buddy who does the organic hay thing, has bought from far away as Wisconsin. might be a volume thing but he usually doesn't pay much more for his organic hay in the summer than I sell mine for in the winter, of course trucking eats him alive.

When he switched to organic dairy he wanted me to grow his hay as I was already selling him a bunch anyways, after doing the research I decided the premium involved wasn't worth the added aggravation.


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## Teslan

I was kinda thinking it wouldn't be worth it. Imagine going through all that work for organic hay then get a week of rain on it so no dairy would want it anyways.


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## PaMike

Or spray it with acid before the week of rain. Now you have "good" hay that is no longer organic so you cant get the premium. Add that to the fact that the hay is usually a little more weedy, and you have a no win situation...


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## gradyjohn

Do you have to feed organic hay and organic grain to organic cows on an organic pasture to have organic meat?


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## Tim/South

Can you fertilize with chicken litter on organic hay?


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## gradyjohn

Tim/South said:


> Can you fertilize with chicken litter on organic hay?


Do the chickens have to be organic?


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## slowzuki

We produce organic hay but it is not certified organic. I'm sure the woodash may have violated the strict rules. The manure applied may contain trace amounts of anti-biotics too. No premium here for it.


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## Hokelund Farm

One of my friends in southern MN is organic (corn/beans) and he fertilizes with conventional hog manure, not sure about hay ground.


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## 8350HiTech

gradyjohn said:


> Do you have to feed organic hay and organic grain to organic cows on an organic pasture to have organic meat?


Yes.



Tim/South said:


> Can you fertilize with chicken litter on organic hay?


Yes, regardless of whether the chickens are organic.


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## Bgriffin856

Once the manure comes out of the animal it's considered "organic"

I'll just keep my opinions and thoughts of organics to myself. ...


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## IH 1586

Bgriffin856 said:


> Once the manure comes out of the animal it's considered "organic"
> 
> I'll just keep my opinions and thoughts of organics to myself. ...


Probably some of the same opinions I have myself.


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## slowzuki

I'm not sure about that, spreading manure with carry over herbicides is a no-no in organic up here.


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## IH 1586

Here we can spread any manure. I don't understand how they come up with the rules. It seems they are different in different areas. Makes no sense to me. Nobody wants to sell their manure and that's why I am looking for suppliers for chicken litter, for use on those fields as well as mine. I found one that seems reasonable just have to wait til I get a spreader now. I get a kick out of "organic" maple syrup. I wonder how many people do any thing to their trees to make them non organic. Just a stupid way to make people feel good about what they are buying while the supplier is making lots more $$$$$$$.


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## mlappin

IH 1586 said:


> Here we can spread any manure. I don't understand how they come up with the rules. It seems they are different in different areas. Makes no sense to me. Nobody wants to sell their manure and that's why I am looking for suppliers for chicken litter, for use on those fields as well as mine. I found one that seems reasonable just have to wait til I get a spreader now. I get a kick out of "organic" maple syrup. I wonder how many people do any thing to their trees to make them non organic. Just a stupid way to make people feel good about what they are buying while the supplier is making lots more $$$$$$$.


My buddy that does the organic dairy "thing" has said the same more than once about the requirements. Most of them are just silly so the consumer is willing to pay more.

He about said f*ck this BS last year when he got wrote up for not using an "approved organic" salt to melt the ice in his holding pen.


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## PaMike

The whole organic thing is fine in principle, but the reality is so far from ideal. I know many organic dairys that feed convential baleage when feed prices go up. If people are really so worried about what they eat they should buy local from producers they know and trust. People forget that there are organic mega dairies with the same "hired hands" as other dairies. Organic is another niche market that some producers will use to line their pockets with consumers hard earned money.


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## Teslan

PaMike said:


> The whole organic thing is fine in principle, but the reality is so far from ideal. I know many organic dairys that feed convential baleage when feed prices go up. If people are really so worried about what they eat they should buy local from producers they know and trust. People forget that there are organic mega dairies with the same "hired hands" as other dairies. Organic is another niche market that some producers will use to line their pockets with consumers hard earned money.


There is a large organic dairy near me. A neighbor of mine that works for a dairy supply business has said they have twice the amount of cow deaths then the same size of traditional dairy. I bet PETA isn't filming them in secret though.


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## mlappin

PaMike said:


> The whole organic thing is fine in principle, but the reality is so far from ideal. I know many organic dairys that feed convential baleage when feed prices go up. If people are really so worried about what they eat they should buy local from producers they know and trust. People forget that there are organic mega dairies with the same "hired hands" as other dairies. Organic is another niche market that some producers will use to line their pockets with consumers hard earned money.


I've told people the same thing, if your worried about pesticides or herbicides on your food then don't buy "out of season" stuff that obviously had to be shipped in from South America.


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## MDill

I should probably chime in here. I work full time on an organic dairy, I do all the crop work for them and the equipment maintenance. During the winter I feed, breed and milk cows too. 
It's all about the market you have, if there is a market for organic dry hay then take it. I don't see custom cropping for organic dairies being a real viable option since most are small herds. Unless you have a whole mess of your own fields that you've certified.
The whole certifacation and inspection process is ridiculous. Pay to get your fields certified, someone comes and snoops around your farm looking for "illegal" drugs (conventional medicine) once a year too. I don't know how guys get away with feeding conventional feed, the feed rules are STRICT over here. 
It baffles me though how lovey dovey Organic Valley and Horizon make everyone feel, they make DFA look evil when really they aren't any different. They're a conglomerate corporation too. The people running the organic system are a cult, there is no other way around it.
I have no problem with how people farm as long as you do it honestly. And I love dairy farming, wish I could afford to do it on my own and not full time for someone else.
That said my beef cows are grass fed but they aren't and never will be organic, if I milked dairy cows they sure wouldn't be either. 
We're paying $750 a ton for grain at work right now.
Mandatory 120 days of pasture no ifs ands or buts. 
Milk price is $32/cwt and doesn't flucuate like conventional but that's with a #60~ rolling herd average when everything is dandy.


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## Dill

The organic syrup thing is the biggest ripoff this side of ocean front property in the flyover states. The one and only difference here is defoamer. If your organic you use organic canola oil. If I was wholesaling syrup it would be worth the paperwork hassle. But I'm not so its not. My BIL works for a farm doing a lot of corn next to a large organic syrup producer. They just shut the sprayer off for a 50ft buffer to the woods.


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## mlappin

MDill said:


> I have no problem with how people farm as long as you do it honestly. And I love dairy farming, wish I could afford to do it on my own and not full time for someone else.
> That said my beef cows are grass fed but they aren't and never will be organic, if I milked dairy cows they sure wouldn't be either.
> We're paying $750 a ton for grain at work right now.
> Mandatory 120 days of pasture no ifs ands or buts.
> Milk price is $32/cwt and doesn't flucuate like conventional but that's with a #60~ rolling herd average when everything is dandy.


Buddy doesn't even buy corn for his cows anymore, too expensive.

Has several hundred acres of pasture though, pays a guy to do nothing but run the bush hog all summer trying to stay ahead of any weeds.

I've talked to several dairy guys in the area, most forward contract their grain but I've yet to talk to any that do that with their milk.

Looking at getting our beef herd certified grass fed.


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## bensbales

Bgriffin856 said:


> Once the manure comes out of the animal it's considered "organic"
> 
> I'll just keep my opinions and thoughts of organics to myself. ...


At the small conventional dairy that i work with we debate this issue on a regular basis.One of there part time helpers is a young guy in his 20"s that loves cows and wants to make it his life work.He started helping them about a year ago and he became friends with the local organic dairy farmer who is in his late 20's. All we heard from him was how Organic was the only way to go, it's the only way for a young guy to get started in farming today,big corporate evil farms aren't sustainable blah blah blah. Point is he had sucked up the whole load of idealistic load of you know what hook line and sinker. We would listen to him go on and on wonder why he was even here helping. So over time we have debated the issues. In our area there is a farm that was farmed conventual in recent years a young family has converted it to an organic. That farm went from supporting 50 milking cow's with a herd average of around 65#.It wasn't a very progressive farm but the used fertilizer and spread the manure where it was needed. Today his friend milks 25- 30 cows with an average of probably 40. He doesn't put nutrients back into the soil or even spread his manure. He has been falsely sold on the idea that since the cows go out to graze and spread their own manure that the land will stay productive for ever. He isn't a good farmer yet but he a nice and ambitious man that has bought into some false ideology that has been hammered into him by the media. Recently the local paper did a write up on how great this farm is and how Wonderfull that a young man is raising family on this this farm and that organic farming is one of the best options for a young person looking to farm. I applaud his efforts for starting a farm with nearly nothing but he is putting NOTHING BACK and his story of success is only propagating that this style of farming as sustainable.What will become of this farm when he is done with it? It will be a nutrient deficient farm that will support less and less every year how sustainable is that? Now to be fair there are some very progressive organic farmers just like there are still some very unprogressive conventional farmers. Slowly we have gotten our young guy to realize the whole picture and in a few hours he'll be be milking a cow that'll give 40to 75 pounds of milk this morning while his buddy a few miles down the road will milk one that gives 15 to 25 pounds .I feel that the medias message has caught a hold of the few ambitious young people we have and selling them a false story, Unfortunately there isn't anyone else rebutting this, so Bgriffen don't keep your thoughts to your self cause if the real message isn't told where is our future?

Again sorry for the long rant ,

regards Ben


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## Hokelund Farm

Lets not lump all the "organic guys" into one group. There are big and small organic farms who can be just as or more profitable and productive in a responsible way as similar conventional farms. The farmer just has to be REALLY good at what he is doing - just like on a good conventional farm.

I don't think "Organic" should be the enemy. The poor managers of the organic farm should be - just like the poor managers of the conventional farm.


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## Teslan

Hokelund Farm said:


> Lets not lump all the "organic guys" into one group. There are big and small organic farms who can be just as or more profitable and productive in a responsible way as similar conventional farms. The farmer just has to be REALLY good at what he is doing - just like on a good conventional farm.
> 
> I don't think "Organic" should be the enemy. The poor managers of the organic farm should be - just like the poor managers of the conventional farm.


I don't think organic is an enemy at all. So long as the organic farmer doesn't affect the way farming is done near him. If it was worth it monetarily to me I would do it, but I just don't feel it is. I also don't do well with people looking over my shoulder at everything I do. So I'm sure I would have issues with the organic paperwork and inspectors. All for maybe more money per bale, but on lower production and possibly not as high quality due to weeds.


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## aawhite

We had a small organic dairy tour our place when we were still milking. Their rolling herd average was under 20,000 pounds, somatic cell counts were so high they were barely retaining their Grade A classification, and had a 30% cull rate. But they talk alot about how we should look to them for a model of how to operate a dairy. The best was their "touch therapy" for treating cows with mastitis.

Sorry fellas, we weren't the #1 producing dairy in Iowa for decades by luck. With quality bonuses for low somatic cell counts, and component pricing for high butterfat due to top quality forages, we were not that far off of their organic bonus. 
We just couldn afford to take such a sever hit in production.

And frankly, I would't drink the crap they were shipping to the milk plant. Grade A is a maximum of 750,000 somatic cell count. Our coop paid quality bonuses for counts under, I believe 225,000. We shipped an average count of 165,000 to 180,000 and hadn't missed a quality premium in about 30 years.


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## Vol

aawhite said:


> We had a small organic dairy tour our place when we were still milking. Their rolling herd average was under 20,000 pounds, somatic cell counts were so high they were barely retaining their Grade A classification, and had a 30% cull rate. But they talk alot about how we should look to them for a model of how to operate a dairy. The best was their "touch therapy" for treating cows with mastitis.
> 
> Sorry fellas, we weren't the #1 producing dairy in Iowa for decades by luck. With quality bonuses for low somatic cell counts, and component pricing for high butterfat due to top quality forages, we were not that far off of their organic bonus.
> We just couldn afford to take such a sever hit in production.
> 
> And frankly, I would't drink the crap they were shipping to the milk plant. Grade A is a maximum of 750,000 somatic cell count. Our coop paid quality bonuses for counts under, I believe 225,000. We shipped an average count of 165,000 to 180,000 and hadn't missed a quality premium in about 30 years.


Your visitors sounds like liberal hippies......wanting others to "look to them".

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South

Vol said:


> Your visitors sounds like liberal hippies......wanting others to "look to them".
> 
> Regards, Mike


I have an Aunt like that. Never worked a day in her life and is always telling everyone how that can get rich.


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## bensbales

Hokelund Farm said:


> Lets not lump all the "organic guys" into one group. There are big and small organic farms who can be just as or more profitable and productive in a responsible way as similar conventional farms. The farmer just has to be REALLY good at what he is doing - just like on a good conventional farm.
> 
> I don't think "Organic" should be the enemy. The poor managers of the organic farm should be - just like the poor managers of the conventional farm.


I completely agree but in my area i can only think of 2 progressive organic dairy's while the rest of them are more like the previously described farmer. My biggest issue is that the publics opinion is been swayed by the organic message so much, that they don't even give it a second though,"if it's organic it has to be better" Meanwhile my neighbors continues to have advertising money taken out of their milk check but wheres the effective advertising , hell here in Vt all i see on tv for milk adds is the friggen "Happy cows come from California" make me want to empty my 8 rd clip of 45acp right into the tv


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## Bgriffin856

I agree with bensbales and in reality many organic products are no different than conventinal. Only thing that might be different is produce.

Just because someone has a organic dairy or other livestock operation that's organic doesn't mean they don't use conventinal medications. I mean as long as the organic inspectors don't find any and you don't get caught shipping anything with medication in it your good to go.

In reality I do not believe it is very sustainable as far as cropping. Sure cover crops and other methods are great and a farm can produce enough manure to meet all their crop needs so they need to bring in manure from conventinal farms from animals fed crops grown using herbicides/pesticides, chemical fertilizers and more than likely are gmo... to me that's hypocritical. But that's just me

One organic dairyman we know said each place you sign up to get certified through has different rules you go by. I figured they'd all be the same.

One thing that gets me is they can go buy a conventinal stock bull or use A.I just like the conventinal farmer. Might be different elsewhere

Alot of people who went organic in this area just saw dollar signs jumped on board


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## TJH

From what I have read: A field must be converted to organic over a 3 year period then be certified to be able to be advertised as organic. If a field even gets spray drift, whether is you or a neighbor, start over. Yes litter is considered organic fertilizer and beef must be born organic to be considered, and for that to happen a cow must be on certified organic pasture two or three years to have an organic calf. being certified organic ain't cheep either, the layer farm I work at pays 12K per year for the certification. Organic inputs, well $$$. But there is alternatives such as natural, or a couple of years ago I read of another program where you sign an agreement to practice organic methods but don't have all the cost associated with certification and most record keeping that is required with certified organic production. Make sure you can find a market, don't go into this blind, gotta find those willing to pay the price.


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## Trillium Farm

I agree that organic is also a matter of opinion and don't buy what the supermarkets are selling!

Here in Ontario however our Mennonites are outproducing reg farmer on a per acre basis, often wonder why. Could it be that their stewardship is better or that their farms are smaller and easier to manage? I really don't know, what I do know is that a farm is a breathing and living entity and must be managed properly and not mined like some big biz are doing. All of us take pride in what we are doing (crops cattle etc) if we take this away who or what would justify the long hours!


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## mlappin

Trillium Farm said:


> I agree that organic is also a matter of opinion and don't buy what the supermarkets are selling!
> 
> Here in Ontario however our Mennonites are outproducing reg farmer on a per acre basis, often wonder why. Could it be that their stewardship is better or that their farms are smaller and easier to manage? I really don't know, what I do know is that a farm is a breathing and living entity and must be managed properly and not mined like some big biz are doing. All of us take pride in what we are doing (crops cattle etc) if we take this away who or what would justify the long hours!


I could easily see it being a smaller size. If you get a wet year it's much easier to get 500 acres done right and on time compared to 5000. In the same wet year it's much easier to get a 100 acres of hay done right compared to 500.


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## hayray

gradyjohn said:


> Do you have to feed organic hay and organic grain to organic cows on an organic pasture to have organic meat?


Yes, that is why all my hay acreage and pastures are certified organic so I can keep my beef certified. I sell almost all my hay to horse market so organic hay I sell is a moot point most of the time. Yes my yields are lower then growers that regularly use granular fertilizer however I feel my profit margins are generally equal or better - not because of using organic growing practices per say,but rather the reduction of expensive overhead practices.


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## 560Dennis

I'm in the process of going Organic.

The fields are soybeams now . It take three years before you can get our fields certifiable. I have to transition plan how best to accomplish this.


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## 560Dennis

As oftion as I could in the spring I would collect cobblestones out of the fields with the loader to use for projects Untill I got more involved in organics. I would not , I did not notice . I said my my these fields are dead. Nothing liives in this soil . It's just compacted dirt . How does anything go ? Water can't permeate it it must run off. These field have grown nothing but soybeans since well 20 years/.

I have since move into unleased soils that I planted into garden, The first year the Garden is tremendous , no weeds ,great yeild , Every year after that the yields dropped. What happened ?

I started to notice this soil looks more and more like the soybean field ,weeds coming on. Soil is looking compacted and dead. In a very short time 3 seasons.

I can tell now that rototillage is helping destory the soil struture that promotes growth. That's how I till.

The more I till the less I get and the harder it becomes to grow anything in this NE Soil.

Thats it I not going to fight this , somehow I got to joins in this follow soil. because whatever the soils are doing all by itself is sure better what I have and others are doing to it.

I'm done with this type of tillage and conventional if that;s the term. It's notill , meaning whatever is naturally occurs in that soil is the most efficient process. That's why I'm going organic if thats the right term . 
It's has to be more econmonical to sustain.

How do I put the life back into these fields ?

The farm can grow hay , I always could remember the hay being so good. It's best way I can Economically get the soil healthy again .


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## Tim/South

Are "organic" field's soil analyzed to see what has been used up or out of proportion? I am curious about what the industry standards are about soil tests. If a field needs potassium, how is that provided?

I have a relative who is an organic diehard. I watched his vegetable yields go down every year for 3 years. He would shovel some horse manure from the local stables and declare the soil was balanced. He holds any type soil test in contempt. "He had been studying organic farming for years" before he decided to grow veggie produce and knew more than anyone else.

The land owner finally pulled the lease after the third year. The land was growing up in sage grass and the yields were pitiful.

A friend and I planted some veggies on the property this year. I ran a soil test and the Ph was 5.1. Nitrogen, phosphorus and potassium was very low. We applied what was recommended and tilled it in.

The organic relative says we have ruined the soil, poisoned the ground.

We have a bumper crop of everything planted.


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## Hokelund Farm

bensbales said:


> I completely agree but in my area i can only think of 2 progressive organic dairy's while the rest of them are more like the previously described farmer. My biggest issue is that the publics opinion is been swayed by the organic message so much, that they don't even give it a second though,"if it's organic it has to be better" Meanwhile my neighbors continues to have advertising money taken out of their milk check but wheres the effective advertising , hell here in Vt all i see on tv for milk adds is the friggen "Happy cows come from California" make me want to empty my 8 rd clip of 45acp right into the tv


With my experience I only hear about the "bad" organic farms - full of weeds and so on. The good ones blend right in with the surrounding farms and people probably don't even know they are organic.

I think the organic message has a long way to go and hasn't influenced the public as much as you think - just look the Walmart grocery department, its always packed with people  There have been some big steps though. The conventional and confined livestock industry has HUGE campaigns trying to stay on the right side of public opinion.

As far as I'm concerned, if you grow/raise food in a responsible, publicly transparent manner, you don't need to worry about campaigning for anything.


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## IH 1586

The ground that I'm renting, the owner and I talked and he is backing off from the organic. Wish I had known that before I spent all that money on seeds redoing the field. He doesn't want to deal with all the regulations, fees, paperwork that comes with it. He just doesn't want me to spray herbicides, which I don't do anyways. Now I can use fertilizers.


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## Trillium Farm

560Dennis said:


> As oftion as I could in the spring I would collect cobblestones out of the fields with the loader to use for projects Untill I got more involved in organics. I would not , I did not notice . I said my my these fields are dead. Nothing liives in this soil . It's just compacted dirt . How does anything go ? Water can't permeate it it must run off. These field have grown nothing but soybeans since well 20 years/.
> 
> I have since move into unleased soils that I planted into garden, The first year the Garden is tremendous , no weeds ,great yeild , Every year after that the yields dropped. What happened ?
> 
> I started to notice this soil looks more and more like the soybean field ,weeds coming on. Soil is looking compacted and dead. In a very short time 3 seasons.
> 
> I can tell now that rototillage is helping destory the soil struture that promotes growth. That's how I till.
> 
> The more I till the less I get and the harder it becomes to grow anything in this NE Soil.
> 
> Thats it I not going to fight this , somehow I got to joins in this follow soil. because whatever the soils are doing all by itself is sure better what I have and others are doing to it.
> 
> I'm done with this type of tillage and conventional if that;s the term. It's notill , meaning whatever is naturally occurs in that soil is the most efficient process. That's why I'm going organic if thats the right term .
> It's has to be more econmonical to sustain.
> 
> How do I put the life back into these fields ?
> 
> The farm can grow hay , I always could remember the hay being so good. It's best way I can Economically get the soil healthy again .


Dennis, I will give you my 2c. Right now what you have to worry about is the tilth of your soil.

I would do this by planting "green manure" plants with a good root network and plow them under. You may have to do this for a few years depending how damaged your soil is. Once a good tilth has been established we can proceed to check to Ph and fertility tests and correct what is needed possibly with natural means. As this process is being implemented you'll see worms and other animals beneficial to the soil return to repopulate it. It will take a few years to get it back into a good shape, there are no shortcuts for long term effect.


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## hayray

IH 1586 said:


> The ground that I'm renting, the owner and I talked and he is backing off from the organic. Wish I had known that before I spent all that money on seeds redoing the field. He doesn't want to deal with all the regulations, fees, paperwork that comes with it. He just doesn't want me to spray herbicides, which I don't do anyways. Now I can use fertilizers.


the owner does not have to deal with any paper work.


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## deadmoose

hayray said:


> the owner does not have to deal with any paper work.


Sshhh! The customer is always right, especially when wrong. The uninformed do not know what organic truly entails. Landowner doesn't want spray? Don't spray.


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## 560Dennis

Trillium Farm said:


> Dennis, I will give you my 2c. Right now what you have to worry about is the tilth of your soil.
> I would do this by planting "green manure" plants with a good root network and plow them under. You may have to do this for a few years depending how damaged your soil is. Once a good tilth has been established we can proceed to check to Ph and fertility tests and correct what is needed possibly with natural means. As this process is being implemented you'll see worms and other animals beneficial to the soil return to repopulate it. It will take a few years to get it back into a good shape, there are no shortcuts for long term effect.


Real good suggestions , Green Manure , Soil tilth 
I also feel that I need to look real close in the spring at what is emerging next year. I never paid /attention to what is coming up. 
One thing I did see collecting stone was under them were some earthworms. So thats good sign


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## mlappin

I always spread a little of our cover crop mix on the garden in the fall. Also spread some cow manure I compost over the summer along with some mushroom compost mixed in.

I picked up some ground from an elderly neighbor who decided to slow down a little, a little over 60 acres, a little more on the north side of the lane than the south, he's always plowed his corn stalks and chiseled his bean stubble, his Dad always plowed it all. It has to be some of the hardest ground we've ever farmed. It's slowly getting better, no-till, cover crops and spreading manure, compost and any old hay, corn stover or any kind of organic matter I can add to the spreader on the worst of the hill tops is slowly bring the soil back to life. Farm some ground directly north of his that has just as many hilltops if not more and none of them has ever been like that. Getting close to ten years straight no till on the heavy clay that everybody else says can't be no-tilled, farm north of his was never plowed with a moldboard that I can remember but only chiseled.

On our soils at least if you want to destroy soil structure and tilth to the point earthworms won't even live their, keep that moldboard plow shiny. Another that I farm I talked to the guy that grew up there, they used to slide a heavy pipe thru the belly of the tractor and hang weights on it, then plowed so the pipe was uphill to keep the tractor from rolling over, not a lot of topsoil on the hills but its slowly getting better as well.

Some other rock hard ground in the area was a guy who believed as long as he could pull that big offset disc (no matter if it took triples) then it was dry enough to farm, you could still cut slabs of dirt out of that ground.


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