# Converting Hay Rake to Hydraulic or PTO Drive



## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

Hi All-

My father and I are going into the straw business. We are in the process of getting equipment, since we really don't have anything that works at all.

One of the hangups is raking. Since our neighbors use large combines (We only used a Deere 6600), we need some way to split the windrows in half.

Our hay rake is ironically the only decent piece of hay equipment that we have. It's a John Deere 670- and looks like this:










It's of course speed-dependent. We need something that can spin at the same rate- regardless of ground speed.

We've looked- all we can find are PTO rakes that are $1000-1500 and are 3 point. We'd really like to have the front wheel. We've found a few hydraulic ones- but they're $3000 by the time we truck them back home (We live in NW Wyoming, so there isn't much out here).

I saw a Farm Show article (http://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=979) about a place that did these kits. Of course, that article is 35 years old!

We're wondering on making our hay rake hydraulic or PTO driven. What parts would we need, how hard would it be, and how much would it cost? Anybody ever done this, or are we just plain nuts?

Any thoughts?


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Not nuts at all, simply disconnect the ground drive shaft from the rear wheels, buy a hydraulic motor and some hoses and with some welding/creativity rig it up so you can put a remote in float and run your rake.

You can also fashion it in such a way that you 
could disconnect the shaft and return it to ground drive if ever needed.

My best guess would be to buy a hydraulic motor from Vermeer like the ones used on their basket rakes, and get a pto spline machined to match your rake driveline but still connect to the motor.

Will find some pictures later to show you how my vermeer is set up.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I make a few hundred square straw bales every year and i just split the windrow with the square baler. Take half the windrow going one way, turn around and get the rest the other direction. If the swath blows around a little no big deal because i effectively have the double the width of the pickup each windrow.

I once converted a NH 256 into a hyd drive, not difficult at all. I ended up adding a flow control right handy to the operators seat to make easier adjustments on the go.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

do you have open or closed hydraulics on your rake tractor? Open hydraulic systems may need deluxe valves to run hydraulic motors. If that is your situation, the pto drive may be a better option. Had that problem with newer jd tractor with open hydraulics.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

JD had hyd drive option on models 652,662,672 & 673 plus a few other models. I think hyd orbit motor will run better on open-center than closed center. Orbit motors tend to create heat in hyd systems.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

well the D series with open centers will not run motors with standard valves-over heats.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Most open center hydraulics don't like extended run times with hydraulic motors. Mainly because open centers use gear pumps and a gear pump is full output all the time, if your hydraulic motor doesn't use as much as the pump is putting out then the system has a constant pressure on it which causes heating. Most open center tractors also don't have near the hydraulic cooling capacity as tractors that use variable displacement piston pumps.

What you can do to help elevate heating problems is to match the hydraulic motor flow requirement as close as possible to the flow rate at the quick coupler. You can also add an auxiliary oil cooler on the rake itself to dissipate heat. Also helps to have a zero return off the motor. Find a port on the tractor resevoir and remove the plug and screw in an adapter then take a male quick coupler and install that on the adapter then install the female quick coupler on the return hose from the rake. Installing your quick couplers in reverse fashion insures that the return is always hooked to the right port, this is especially required if you add a oil cooler to the rake as most oil coolers won't take line pressure. Using a zero return lowers the pressure in the return line and usually helps to reduce heat as well.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

Why don't you just get a baler like 575 class that can eat the windrow? Granted I run my 326 behind a 20' head most of the time, I have plenty of slower gears to go. Also, if this is rotary straw, don't rake it any more than you have to as your tonnage will be left laying the field. If you need to rake spread straw back in, a wheel rake is the way to go. Might get a little more trash in the straw but I don't think your leaving near as much behind as other rakes.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mlappin

You may be correct but I've seen a many Vermeer R 23(JD 700) & later model hyd driven rakes operated on both open & closed center tractors.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Can't you shut the spreader off on the new combines. Sell the rake and get a baler that can eat the windrows... Or am I missing something?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Tx Jim said:


> mlappin
> 
> You may be correct but I've seen a many Vermeer R 23(JD 700) & later model hyd driven rakes operated on both open & closed center tractors.


You can, and many times when you look at the brochures for these or even the operators manuals, they need to be ordered either for a open or closed system or certain things need changed when going from one to the other. Our hydraulic spray pumps can be used with either, but certain things need changed when switching from one to the other, our White planter can be run with either, but you just can't switch from one to the other or back with out changing a few things and not expect problems.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Most open center hydraulics don't like extended run times with hydraulic motors. Mainly because open centers use gear pumps and a gear pump is full output all the time, if your hydraulic motor doesn't use as much as the pump is putting out then the system has a constant pressure on it which causes heating. Most open center tractors also don't have near the hydraulic cooling capacity as tractors that use variable displacement piston pumps.
> 
> I'm confused! 1ST you state an orbit motor or motors will not operate correctly on an OC hyd system then you state an OC will operate successfully if machine is equipped correctly.
> 
> PS: CC hyd systems aren't the only machines with factory installed hyd coolers.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mlappin

I just viewed the parts catalog for a JD 700 & 705 hyd rake under hyd's and see no mention of CC or OC valves.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mlappin

I just viewed the parts catalog for a JD 700 & 705 hyd rake under hyd's and see no mention of CC or OC valves.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Our White planter doesn't show a breakdown in parts either, however in the owners manual they say if your going to use a open center tractor or a PTO pump then a kit needs ordered. Kit just adds a bypass hose on the speed control valve, if running closed center tractor the kit needs removed and caps returned to the fittings.

When using a open center the kit allows excess oil to bypass the speed control valve, on closed center the valve acts more like a restrictor and the variable displacement pump will throttle back and self adjust for the amount of oil needed.

I've seen the centerline and other round bale roadsiders offer two different valve body assemblies, one for open center and one for closed.

When we installed the corn reel on the old combine before it burnt, since it still had a gear pump it was a lot more detailed than for the newer models.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

When I ran the county landfill we ordered a JD6140 and a haybuster 2540? The one that grinds roundbales for mulch and blows the mulch up to 100' for seeding and soil stabilization work. There was no mention in the haybuster brochure about the issue with oc hydraulics, only a pumping requirement and # of remotes and a PTO hp, all of which the 6140 met. There is no mention in the brochure for the 6140 that it did not want to run hydraulic motors-or at least there wasn't when we bought it. There is a single line mention buried in the ops manual which most people don't read before they buy a machine. so we purchased and it did not work. Had to upgrade to the deluxe 3 valve set which has a flow control and a hydraulic motor setting. Then we found out you can't use the primary valve because when it is activated, it throws out the other two. so we had 3 valves to get hydraulic motors on two. the motors ran the chute direction and the table to turn the bale for the hammers. Finally did get it to work fine but it took a lot of doing and little knowledge on how to proceed from either the jd or haybuster folks.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

@Mlappin Our tractor should be right up your alley. It hasn't arrived yet, but it's a 1975? White 2-105. Hopefully that will tell you about the hydraulic system.

My problem is that I am completely clueless on hydraulics. I don't anticipate us actually needing the rake much, but my father's used a Massey 124 since the 80s, so he's used to the narrow pickup. We're kind of at the whim of the combine operator for windrow width.

We'll be getting a baler, and I'm seriously looking at a New Holland 575. Would the pickup be able to handle today's large combines?

I'm intrigued on the "Just drive on half of the row" idea. Wouldn't our bales get in the way for our New Holland Bale Wagon?

Please keep the ideas coming! I've already quadrupled my knowledge of hydraulics by reading this thread!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

There's a blurb in the most recent "Farm Show" magazine about a man that converted his bar rake to PTO drive. He built it out of junk from the way it reads. I much prefer the idea of a hydraulic conversion for simplicity, though. Definitely sounds like mlappin can help you on that issue.

But I'd still rather have the 75" pickup you get on that 575 baler you're looking at over having to split rows. If 75" doesn't get it all, it'll get enough. And if I had to split rows, I'd rather have a rotary rake. It'll do the splitting job beautifully and handle fine straw better too. Of course, it's easy to spend the money when it's not mine


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

RRake will split your windrow like a hot knife through room temp butter.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Okay White 2-105 is a pressure compensated system, variable displacement piston pump. Go ahead and install the zero return like I described. Keep a clean hydraulic filter in it at all times, these are a gravity flow/suction system, plug the filter and starve the pump. Pretty reliable and parts are still available, just installed a piston kit in our 1755 as one of the cups on a piston cracked.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

matador said:


> We'll be getting a baler, and I'm seriously looking at a New Holland 575. Would the pickup be able to handle today's large combines?


 I think your mind will be blown.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

cmd said:


> I think your mind will be blown.


In a good way, or the way it's blown when my father Rupe Goldberg's our 124 back together?

These are the only two 575's on TractorHouse close enough for us to pull home:

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8726003

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8199475

We of course have to wait for the crop to come in before we could buy something. But, still, do you think one of the 575's would beat one of the Hesston/Case IH/New Idea inlines?

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My concern with the PTO drive would be in the corners. How could we make it so the PTO shaft doesn't whack into the Tongue/Frame of the rake when we turn?

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@Mlappin- While you're here, any other quick tips on the White 2-105? I've read great things about them, but our only tractor has been a Deere 4520. We've never owned an Oliver/White before, so any tips would be great!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Are there any junk center pivot haybines in your area? If you could get hold of a junker that had a pto-driven hydraulic pump, you could make yours pto drive with the pump but by adding a flow control valve between the pump and the hydraulic motor, you could still have the speed variation of hydraulic drive. Assuming the capacities of the pump and motor were workable for your application... You'd solve your open/closed center issue (especially handy in case you acquired another tractor) and solve the issue of locating your driveline.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

No scrap haybines of any kind out here. We've had many offers on our 479, and it's in poor shape.

I'd be fine ordering parts if need be, but I don't know of any salvage yards out here. Our 4520 had to be shipped to an outfit near Scottsbluff.

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Somebody mentioned something about wheel rakes. Are you referring to this:










This:










or something else?

I told my father about the 75" pickup on the New Holland 575 (Our MF 124 has a 56" Wide pickup for comparison). He still thinks the windrows need to be split, because he doesn't think he can go slow enough.

Is he correct? I assume that since the White 2-105 has 18 gears, putting it in 1/Under should be very slow- if anything, too slow.

Thoughts?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

How wide of a combine head and what straw yield do you anticipate working with? Unless crazy heavy straw, a 575 should eat it up.

Too bad on the haybines, I really liked my idea


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

We never had any problems baling straw behind a 22' head with our NH 276 hay liner and a 575 is a hell of a lot more baler.

2-105's were pretty bullet proof by the time they got to that model. Really just a updated Oliver 1855/1955.

The Perkins 354 in em is pretty reliable as well, usually do very well on fuel.

First under gives you a speed of 1.6 mph. We never had to go that slow with our 276.

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/5/6/566-white-2-105-transmission.html


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

A lot of the machines out here are John Deere 9500s, like this:










The combine in the picture has a #925 header, which an internet search shows is 25' wide. Some of the combines are a little bigger out here, but the 9500 seems to be a common model.

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Glad to hear the Whites are bulletproof! I'd assume that 1.6 MPH is too slow, but still, if you can go that slow, I'd assume that it could handle a thick patch if you have to.

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My father's used to running a MF 124 to bale for his old Deere 6600 combine. Our machine has either a 14' or a 15' header on it. Our baler does struggle a bit. I think that's due to it's age/condition, though.

Do you think a 575 could pace a 9500 or slightly larger machine without raking the windrows?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

My custom guy is still running a 9500 with a 20' head. I'm baling with the narrower 570. Even in heavy rye straw it's well within its capacity. A 575 following a 25' head should be fine.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

There is way more considered in baler capacity than pickup width.

I was talking about the 2nd wheel rake you showed.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

Our fear is what to do if something goes wrong. Our neighbors all do everything quickly. Field combined. Straw done (Unless Chopped). Field Plowed. They do this quickly.

We need a setup where we know that our equipment can handle it. If we go to do the field, and cannot for some reason (Say, our baler can't take the windrows), we're standing in some pretty deep manure!

What do we need to be sure we're good?


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

well one thing is for sure-if you have to be perfect, don't start with a brand new baler of any type or brand. They all need the paint worn off and the kinks worked out. One year old with 5k bales through it would be perfect.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Why would anybody sell a one year old square like that if it is "just broken in" and in its sweet spot? What gremlins does it hold?


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

I was actually referring to rakes and things like that. I had a thread here a couple of weeks ago discussing our equipment possibilities:

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/22714-best-cheap-straw-setup/

There is no way that we're looking at equipment that new! I wish we could, but...

Now, for something not completely different: what should we do for raking with a 575 type baler?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I think we're recommending the 575 so that you don't have to rake.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

So, a thought I had...

If a 575 could handle a 25-30' windrow by itself, could we set up a field demonstration like this:

Take two windrows from our 14' JD6600 and merge them? I think my father would have to see it to believe it.

I love the rake-free idea. I just have to convince him that it, well... works in practice.

Any ideas on how to show him this? I assume it's either field demonstration or videos of people doing it that I need.

He figures now is a fine time to learn stuff, not next year when we start doing this.

Please keep the thoughts coming! If nothing else, please chime in with what you've done with a 575. This is like telling the owner of an F-150 the capabilities of a Power Stroke or Cummins. We've just never experienced anything of this caliber.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

It depends on how you merge them. A row laid down by a 30' head and untouched by a rake will bale MUCH better than two 14's raked together. Raking straw is a good way to cause yourself grief.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

This should give you some idea of capacity. There are tons of YouTube videos of 575s in the field.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Just a thought. A NH 575 will pound out an incredible amount of bales in a day. Are you set up to get them off just as fast? Matching your equipment makes sense.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

We were planning on using a New Holland 1033 (or similar) bale wagon to move the bales. There will be two tractors- the White on either the baler or stacker, and a "tractor to be named later" on the other.

The fields will be about 2-5 miles from the stack location at most.

Do you think this setup would be sufficient? We're all ears to suggestions.

P.S. I think I'm in love with the 575 after seeing the videos.


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## matador (Jun 18, 2014)

Any other thoughts? A New Holland 575 baler, New Holland 1033 Balewagon, No rake (other than our current ground-drive rake). Two tractors, and two people.

Does this sound feasible? Am I nuts? All ideas or comments are welcomed...


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

cmd said:


> Why don't you just get a baler like 575 class that can eat the windrow? Granted I run my 326 behind a 20' head most of the time, I have plenty of slower gears to go. Also, if this is rotary straw, don't rake it any more than you have to as your tonnage will be left laying the field. If you need to rake spread straw back in, a wheel rake is the way to go. Might get a little more trash in the straw but I don't think your leaving near as much behind as other rakes.


have u ever tried to eat a 45' head?


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