# The Line Between Wagons, Accumulator and Bale Bandits??????



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Just curious for you folks using accumulators and bale bandit type equipment vs thrower or stack wagons - where did you draw the line in the sand from a quantity standpoint and say, enough, it's time to move away from wagons to an accumulator/grapple system and then say the accumulator is to slow for this qty volume of hay and move to a bale bandit type system.

We are all stack wagons now, maybe next would be an EZ trail wagon to eliminate labor stacking the wagon and everyone could hang out at the barn. At some point, it might make sense to use an accumulator/grapple set-up. Bottom line is time is more limited than labor available - outside the day job hours.

Just window shopping/planning ahead as I feel as we open up more acreage, the wagons might get old in a hurry.

Thanks!
Bill


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

For me, it was a labor force issue. I have a NH 1033 Stack Wagon and just bought another to speed the process up more. It was a necessity as I was baling hay when I should have been spraying for soybean aphids, or using so much vacation time for 1000 bales a day, when Dad could have baled and I moved them when I got home.

Been looking at adding a Kuhns Accumulator, but am leaning towards just the 15 on edge grapple to stack in smaller barns I have rented.

Two guys can shed a hell of a lot of hay in a hurry with any mechanical assistance, be it Stack Wagons or an accumulator/grapple setup. And not be dead tired at the end of the day.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

My take is this.....there has to be that proverbial "line in the sand" number for everyone but everyone's situation is so different that I don't think it really matters to you as everyone has different requirements. If I had a barn at every field, or my fields were all together, I would probably use a stackwagon instead of a Bandit......the simple truth is, hay making is very dynamic. Not only from day to day, but year to year. Whatever system you use, your entire operation has to be on the same page and that's where the efficiency comes into play. When purchasing and considering a bundlers, accumulator, wagons, etc. it's the supporting cast that maximizes the efficiency of either system......something to consider before making the plunge no matter what "number" you use in your plans......hth


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Labor that was the biggest problem whether it was finding qualified labor to run Bale wagons or hand labor in general. I always ran self-propelled Bale wagon's, problem is it took about two years to teach somebody to do it correctly. Then our problem became the Bale wagon were never conform to the correct dimensions for loading trailers so we always had a load everything out mainly by hand. We went to a Kunh accumulator and grab. It seems so much easier to train somebody to run a skid steer on a grapple they get the idea a lot faster now granted the bale wagons and straw or heavy hay can outperform the accumulator (4000 vs 6000 bales a day if all goes right) but in the thinner cuttings the accumulator Shines not to mention the loadout factor. I have multiple grapples that are conformed to most trailers I just pick the one I need and go load. I went from doing 30,000 bales a year with 4 to 6 guys to moving over 100,000 a year with just three of us and a part-time. Regardless how you want to go Bale wagon, bandit or accumulator system they show up on time they don't complain when it gets hot and they do their job.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I have NEVER gotten close to 4000 bales a day, much less 6000!


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

I went bandit for two reasons, I'm short on help and only one of my fields has a barn. Most of my hay gets hauled 5-15 miles and it's so much faster when they are in bundles. Also I deliver most of my hay so it's just the easiest way of doing it all the way around.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Bill, I don't know where you fit in the size-of-operation spectrum. I'm on the low end and my experience/opining is therefore based. I started out 2014 baling about 20 acres in small bales. I will start 2016 baling 50-70 acres of smalls and some BR bales. The added acreage, plus I was able to realize some hay-related cash flow this year, and the aging help made the 20 acres my line in the sand.

By going from "wagons", I take that as rack wagons which I hand load and hand unload.

Mostly, I bought the accumulator due to a reason explained in another post which I copied to this one:

Just finished a lil field of idiot bricks yesterday. Daughter (my normal baler driver) had some sort of after school activity, so i called my dad (69 years old) and asked him to help...never a problem. He shows up and REFUSES to run the baler while I ride the wagon. The ole bastard is tough as woodpecker lips and tells ME that HE is going to ride the wagon...even though he pulled a chest muscle while splitting firewood. Well, he IS my dad and I still don't sass him none. I (nice, young, good looking...where was i going with this?) was running baler while he stacked 268 bales on wagons. Makes me feel like SH!T! 'Course it is cool here and mom said he came home and was feeling pretty good about himself. I told her "cum, blister, or bleed-i will have an accumulator next year!! (Keep those reviews coming in the Long grap. post in the other thread) I'll either have to quit investing my egg money in Kentucky (bourbon), sell off a toy ot two, or borrow the money. I am tighter than a gnat's a$$ stretched around a rain barrel, but when it comes down to it, I WILL outspend something that stresses my moral fiber!

73, Mark

Edit, I reckon if I would have read closer, I would have seen that Rack wagons were not part of the discussion.

Mea culpa, Mark


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

"Tough as woodpecker lips" I like.

Distance to storage and building type are two big factors. My big one is on the marketing side though. Some customers will see little value in a bundle and some will see a lot. It may take a little time to adjust customer base/delivery systems but once you figure it out its pretty sweet.

I think it can be tough to find enough value in bundle systems if you only consider the benefits on the day of harvest, unless your bale counts are really big.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

We are kind of in the same situation, trying to find more efficient , affordable ways to move hay. If the labor was available I think dropping on the ground and hand picking up and hauling out on gooseneck trailers is the cheapest. But labor gets tired or will not show up. We have 250 plus acres of hay and straw at one farm 12 miles from home barn, and another 165 ac at another farm 10 miles from home, this one does have a small barn. We are thinking of building a back stop and pad to dump stack wagons at and have ability to easily trap, and haul out using a grappler and trailers and a grappler back at home facility. I have also thought about a pull type bale baron or bandit ( not behind the baler, we run several balers) But we at least half our storage is in old bank barns that we have to hand stack. I just don't think I want to cut all those banded bales to hand stack and re hand stack out of barn. For us it isn't always about labor efficiency, but getting a lot of hay up quick.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

No doubt that there is not a perfect solution that fits all.....small squares are still a lot of work if you do enough of them.....and that is usually what happens as you get more efficient, you take on more acreage to help pay for this efficiency....increasing your workload that you were trying to reduce by becoming more efficient. A Catch 22 so to speak.

Large growers would probably be best served if you were flexible enough to have bale wagons, accumulators, multiple design grapples, and probably a form of bundling to fit various sized fields, locations, and climatic conditions.

Regards, Mike


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Stack em up. I wish we could just hold that every day. But we all know that cant always happen. We stream line as hard as possible to keep our efficiency up but like anyone else we defently have had our share 200 bale days.

I was running a 1049 bale wagon and could usaly do 4 loads an hr 640 bales. On the accumulator we can normaly bale 350-400 hr in straw and alfalfa if all goes well and the grapple can keep up with the baler. BUT with that all being said ive had trouble even getting 100 bales done especially the last two yrs with the lovely ohio weather we have had.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

For me their wasn't an exact line where I reached the number of bales where I justified the bandit. It was the fact that I could not find labor anymore so I had to get something automated if I was to continue doing squares. For the amount of bales I was doing (about 10k a year) from a financial standpoint the accumulator would have likely been the right choice but since I plan on expanding my small square operation I decided to go ahead and take the plunge into a bandit as a long term investment since I felt it was the best option for my situation.

It depends on everybody's different situation but In my opinion If a person was doing more than a few thousand bales a year it would be worth investing into an accumulator. I see no reason to be handling that number of bales by hand.....even if only once when unloading a kicker wagon or bale basket. I think the kicker wagon or bale basket would be good for someone that only does a few hundred bales at a time and would only have a couple wagon to unload after baling and not when black clouds are rolling up and you have ran out of empty wagons so you can't finish baling before you have to stack. In some ways how many bales a person does at a time rather than a year would be a better judge of what equipment is needed since someone who only makes a few hundred at a time with a kicker wagon/bale basket could still make a few thousand bales a year......but then there is the fact that you would have to load a few thousand bales back out by hand when selling rather than using a grapple if you had an accumulator.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

With a 4 hour baling window, and 2 miles haul to barn using a conveyor going to a mow, baskets will take you to 1600 bales a day pretty easily. Field next to conveyor 1 basket is fine. 2 mile haul you need 3-4 baskets or you will run out before the end. 10 mile haul you need 6 baskets or you will run out of baskets before you finish.

If we had more than 4 hours per day it scales up really well. Did some straw in late August and you could easily do 3000 bales a day with the additional baling time and no need for raking.

The best part of the baskets for me is if its going to a customer, I drive there, get paid, pull the lever, drive home at 40-45 mph. No strapping, no time unloading. Only thing better would be if they built a basket that held 200-300 bales.

If I had a pole barn type building, I would have headed straight for accumulators without thinking about it but after watching other use them they don't produce the bales a day that you'd think without careful planning. Your hand stacked flatbeds that held 280 bales hand stacked behind a baler and don't need strapped hold maybe 180 bales loaded by grapple and need a strap or two which also means instead of 560 bales back to the barn per trip you only get 360 bales per trip. You have a tractor tied up with a loader grabbing hay. If you use that loader to put the hay in the barn, its not as fast as unloading round bales as you have to be more precise.

There are ways to compensate, longer wagons for low loads, practise stacking and pre-placing ropes cut to the right length to tie loads etc. but its not a slam dunk right out of the gate.

There are situations where NH self propelled stackwagons to kick all the other systems butts too.

The bundlers to me are all about handling the hay subsequent times ie the speed of loading out semi's all winter. Until someone puts an accumulator table on the rear to dump all the bundles at one end of a field for loading they don't clean a field up any faster than the other options.











FarmerCline said:


> I think the kicker wagon or bale basket would be good for someone that only does a few hundred bales at a time and would only have a couple wagon to unload after baling and not when black clouds are rolling up and you have ran out of empty wagons so you can't finish baling before you have to stack. In some ways how many bales a person does at a time rather than a year would be a better judge of what equipment is needed since someone who only makes a few hundred at a time with a kicker wagon/bale basket could still make a few thousand bales a year....


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## LushAcres (Oct 12, 2015)

Wow, I almost feel shamed that I don't care to do our 1k-ish bales that we do per year. (Mostly BR's otherwise)

However, I want to make it clear that I TRULY LOVE HAY, and want to expand.

So, with this I say, I am making a mini bale bundler that groups 10 bales on edge (like the Baron and Bandit's 21) then neatly raps these little guys together with 3 strings of heavy twine.

The catch? Mine is simpler, robust, and affordable.
... so affordable, that this sub 2k bale producer will easily bring home the bacon from fields 20 miles away.


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## fspring (Oct 10, 2014)

depends on your help situation, buildings and weather. i have been doing hay with basket wagons, hay help is now all gone, so i just bought a 1038 bale wagon. neighbor near me has a 1069. if you go accumulator, you need more help, one to bale, one to load bale bundles and one to drive truck and trailer, and maybe a fourth to unload in building.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I think some of these guys on here run one man shows with accumulators.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

More help is always nice, but one man can do the complete operation by him/herself with a accumulator.....Rake, Bale/Accumulate, stack wagons and then pull in the dry or unload....makes for long days, but at least it can be done.

The part I hate the most is raking.....I love to bale and accumulate.....and I enjoy unloading/stacking hay in the storage facility.

Regards, Mike


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## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't know anyone who really likes to rake but if you don't do it yourself it's hard to find good help to not screw it up. I don't know anything about bale wagons or bandits but if you rake the day before it can help shorten your day and once you get a feel for your operation you can put as many bales on the ground as you know you can get picked up. Its a lot of jumping from one piece of equipment to another when you run an accumulator and grapple system but it can be one manned. Like I said I don't anything about bale wagons but they seem like they'd be cheaper than having the accumulator, grapple, loader or two, and wagons.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> Your hand stacked flatbeds that held 280 bales hand stacked behind a baler and don't need strapped hold maybe 180 bales loaded by grapple and need a strap or two which also means instead of 560 bales back to the barn per trip you only get 360 bales per trip.


I don't strap my wagons with the Kuhns tie accumulator unless I am going out a state highway....and if someone is able to handstack 280 bales on trailer/wagon and can only get 180 bales on with a grapple....they sure as heck don't know what they are doing.

Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I will gladly rake for you if you mow for me. IMHO, raking is the easiest, tedding 2nd, baling 3rd and mowing is the hardest.

Then again, I have a 27' Y/V rake and 20' V rake vs a 10' mower. 3 mower trips for one rake trip.

Ralph


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## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

Deal Ralph I'll mow for days to avoid raking for hours. I think a V rake would help things but I'm a very small operation and run an old bar rake. The biggest problem I have is getting my rake driver to run a consistent smooth speed so I end up with inconsistent windrows.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

I know raking is boring but with a cab and radio it not that bad, we can rake with 2 rotaries if we have the help it sure beats the heck out of a WD and 256 roller bar


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Put him/her in a tractor without a foot throttle!



Growing pains said:


> Deal Ralph I'll mow for days to avoid raking for hours. I think a V rake would help things but I'm a very small operation and run an old bar rake. The biggest problem I have is getting my rake driver to run a consistent smooth speed so I end up with inconsistent windrows.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

What pattern does your accumulator do? All the folks I've talked to in person get about 2/3 the bales on their wagons with accumulator and need to strap if going in and out of fields. We have deep ditches here though and I see lots of places are much easier to get on the road.

What do you use to stack at 12 ft high with your grapple on the wagon?



Vol said:


> I don't strap my wagons with the Kuhns tie accumulator unless I am going out a state highway....and if someone is able to handstack 280 bales on trailer/wagon and can only get 180 bales on with a grapple....they sure as heck don't know what they are doing.
> 
> Mike


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## GOOD HAY (Aug 8, 2010)

I guess that you can tell that there is no easy answer as everyone has a slightly different operation with all the different elements that come into play amount of crop, local weather, good help, storage, budget and the age of the guys and gals that are doing the work. We have gone with bale wagons, now have 2 105 bale pull type. We unload with a grapple ( 3 bales wide by 5 deep) on a forklift, stack up to 12 bales high on edge (about 18 feet)in a 42 x 120 coverall building and load wagons for delivery with the same grapple. Our wagons are 20 feet long and have racks built on the two ends and one side. So each layer is six bales in length and six bales (on edge) wide and four layers high for a total of 144 bales. We have to stack the first row of bales (on the far side of the wagon) six long and four high by hand and then the rest of the load is eight lifts with the grapple. Almost all of our hay is shipped on the four wagons that we have set up like this. I always keep the wagons loaded and customers know that they can come to get hay anytime. My wife and I do over 20,000 this way. The reason that we initially decided to go with the bale wagons is I happened to meet a guy who had a similar setup and it seemed to work for him. We went from baling and stacking by hand on 8 wagons to this new system in one year in 2008, pretty steep learning curve. At the time we were doing about 15000 bales, putting about 6000 in the mow with an elevator, and the rest were sold during the hay season. We had run out of good help and I was looking for a system that my wife and I could make work and was not overly expensive. I think at the time we spent about $55,000 in one shot to get started. Since then we have done over 160 thousand bales, so our cost per bale is starting to come down. Upkeep is minimal, and when we need some help now it is for some one to drive the baler and I have a good operator who will come on weekends if my wife has something else on the go. The best system is the one that works for your situation and budget..


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

stack em up said:


> Been looking at adding a Kuhns Accumulator, but am leaning towards just the 15 on edge grapple to stack in smaller barns I have rented.


I don't know if you're still looking for one or not, but I ran across a 15-on-edge Kuhns today. The guy is asking 7k for it. He said that it needs some new springs and bottom of the chute that hooks to the baler. He claims the new style is available from Kuhns for $7xx shipped. I don't have a dog in the fight and don't care if anyone buys it or not, but I remember you were looking at one time.....buyer beware, I don't really know the owner and am not representing the machine for him or that his word is any good. (The guy whose lot it is...his word is good, just don't know about the actual owner's word). The story is, the Kuhns was in a barn in which there was a fire (I would guess that is why the chute is bad/missing, but again...just my guess.

























73, Mark


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol, You put plenty of disclaimers in there Mark.....what you're saying is "don't hold my feet to the fire"


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

somedevildawg said:


> Lol, You put plenty of disclaimers in there Mark.....what you're saying is "don't hold my feet to the fire"


You noticed that didja? 

I was at a "fall consignment" (pronounced "get rid of your junk here") auction today and I ran into the jockey there (he's a good enough guy), and he told me about the accumulator on his lot and that it had been in a fire. He pointed me to the guy that owned it and I talked to him--- THAT guy told me that "it got a little hot parked in the barn". :huh:

...so yup, don't want the value of my word resting on the lips of someone else <_<

It was a good trip though; bought a few things, but the best deal was on a tilt table/squeeze chute for trimming feet on sheep. The auctioneer got to that item and stared at it like a monkey doing calculus; he didn't know what it was...I told him "it's a rabbit creep feeder...just sell dang thing and move on". I opened the bid at 5 bucks cause no one knew what it was....I own it now for the price of a pork burger and a soda.  (Side note: I hate it when I open the bid and no one else bids; makes me think I overpaid...shoulda opened at 2 bucks) Tried to steal a Brillion SS-961 seeder, but alas it went for nearly $1800.

73, Mark


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

That brlllion is worth a lot more here. 5000$ might touch it if in good shape.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

slowzuki said:


> That brlllion is worth a lot more here. 5000$ might touch it if in good shape.


I had no idea...tried to look on tractorhouse and fastline, but could find nary a one. Closest model that I found was a ss96-01 for $2950. The one on Tractorhouse was pull-type; this one was cat 1 3pt hitch. My first problem; it wasn't listed and I didn't know how much it was worth...the second problem; I'm saving my egg money to cash out for a barn and a skid steer after the first of the year (don't like being indebted to bankers) and didn't wanna drop that much jingle. If I could have stolen it for a grand or so...I was hopeful, too; the bidding stalled out at for a bit while I had the bid at $700 and in my head, I already had it hitched to the tractor and full of seed. My hopes were dashed against the rocks shortly thereafter and the dreams of sugarplums turned to vinegar.

73, Mark


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

glasswrongsize said:


> You noticed that didja?
> 
> I was at a "fall consignment" (pronounced "get rid of your junk here") auction today and I ran into the jockey there (he's a good enough guy), and he told me about the accumulator on his lot and that it had been in a fire. He pointed me to the guy that owned it and I talked to him--- THAT guy told me that "it got a little hot parked in the barn". :huh:
> 
> ...


Cool, I like stories like that. My uncle bought a grain auger on a frame with wheels, and a 220 volt motor for $1. He gave it to dad, and we have been using here for the last 10 years.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I bought at a estate auction a JD 400 suspended hay elevator that would dump anywhere along the 60 foot length to the left or the right for $100. Has a 1 hp electric motor. It was the last thing to sell and for some reason folks thought you had to leave it assembled to get it home. No one would bid and the auctioneer said will someone give me $100? I held up my hand and he said sold.....I was surprised and it's hanging in a loft of mine now....which I no longer use since acquiring a accumulator several years ago.  I did get several years use out of it though.

Regards, Mike


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