# Small bale vs round bale



## FutureFarmer

Hey yall I'm a first time poster on here and brand new into the industry. My wife and I currently live in Fort Worth and are looking at a 5yr plan to move out to East TX and get some land out there. We want to move out of the city and have approx 70 acres that we will hay 50 of. Like everyone else that moves from the city, we want to move out so that we can teach our kids how to work hard, be self reliant, and so the kids have place to run around and be kids and we dont have to worry so much of the problems associated with cities.

I've studdied a lot but got some questions that are unanswered:

1) It seems that on Craigslist for East Texas 4x5 bales sell for approx $45. Assuming these are all about 700lbs a roll, that is about $135/ton. Meanwhile small square bales are selling for approx $6/bale. Assuming that these are about 60lbs/bale that is $200/ton.

Given that you can get $65/ton more with small bales, why would anyone sell in large round rolls?

2) According to this at the bottom of page 16 it costs $110-120/ton to produce hay in TX. If that's true, why would anyone go through all the trouble of making round bales to sell at $135/ton to only profit $15-25/ton?

Thanks everyone!

Corey


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## Hayman1

Well, for starters, it is all about time, and storage. Do you have the resources to put up a storage barn for the squares? Actually, if you want to make quality rounds, you need storage in a shed as well. But, squares are a lot harder. I put up 5-6K small squares a year so have some experience on the topic. Put up 120 4 x 5s as well so know the difference. What ever you do, if you have never done hay before, start small and learn. Nothing like a 30 acre cluster when things go wrong and you have no clue what to do next. BTW- it has happened to all of us before. Maybe partner with someone-again small so you learn but don't get totally burned. Just one opinion-worth about what you paid for it.


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## rjmoses

Hayman's got some real good thoughts.

Ralph


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## FutureFarmer

Hayman1 said:


> Well, for starters, it is all about time, and storage. Do you have the resources to put up a storage barn for the squares? Actually, if you want to make quality rounds, you need storage in a shed as well. But, squares are a lot harder. I put up 5-6K small squares a year so have some experience on the topic. Put up 120 4 x 5s as well so know the difference. What ever you do, if you have never done hay before, start small and learn. Nothing like a 30 acre cluster when things go wrong and you have no clue what to do next. BTW- it has happened to all of us before. Maybe partner with someone-again small so you learn but don't get totally burned. Just one opinion-worth about what you paid for it.


Thank you Hayman for the advice about starting small or partnering. Getting your hand burned is a sure way to stay out of the game all together.

Does it in fact cost $110-120/ton to make quality hay? If so, why are growers selling hay in rounds for $135/ton? Is the competition THAT fierce?


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## JD3430

FutureFarmer said:


> Hey yall I'm a first time poster on here and brand new into the industry. My wife and I currently live in Fort Worth and are looking at a 5yr plan to move out to East TX and get some land out there. We want to move out of the city and have approx 70 acres that we will hay 50 of. Like everyone else that moves from the city, we want to move out so that we can teach our kids how to work hard, be self reliant, and so the kids have place to run around and be kids and we dont have to worry so much of the problems associated with cities.
> 
> I've studdied a lot but got some questions that are unanswered:
> 
> 1) It seems that on Craigslist for East Texas 4x5 bales sell for approx $45. Assuming these are all about 700lbs a roll, that is about $135/ton. Meanwhile small square bales are selling for approx $6/bale. Assuming that these are about 60lbs/bale that is $200/ton.
> 
> Given that you can get $65/ton more with small bales, why would anyone sell in large round rolls?
> 
> 2) According to this at the bottom of page 16 it costs $110-120/ton to produce hay in TX. If that's true, why would anyone go through all the trouble of making round bales to sell at $135/ton to only profit $15-25/ton?
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> Corey


1. You may be vastly underestimating the work required to pickup and store small squares
2. Most small squares are about 50 lbs in my area. 60s are rare.
3. In my area, small squares are still being sold for about $4, but its possible to get $6.
4. In my area, I am able to sell 4x5s for as much as $75, but sometimes as low as $45
5. Round bales can be completely handled with a tractor. 
6. Round bales can be left outside through some rainfall. Small squares would be considered to be less than desire able if left outside
7. Round bales can be gathered up and put away rather quickly.

I have done both and yes, small squares bring more money/ton IF you are willing to put in the back breaking labor to put them up, then bring them back down for customers when THEY want to buy them. Lots of hand work versus machine work for round bales. What I found was that more acreage can be done with round bales, so that you can make up for the less $ per ton price by baling a higher quantity of hay. 
What may work for you may not work for someone else. That's the way hay seems to be from region to region. It would take me longer to do 50 acres of small squares than 100 acres of round bales. I can do round bales as a one man show. Did 3000 small squares last year and it was tough to do alone.

You'll like these forums and I respect you for taking the family away from the city.


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## RockyHill

Welcome. Your family lifestyle can be much better than in the city.

Agree with the previous posts. We've had hay all our lives starting with small squares before rolling was invented (at least unheard of in KY), switched to rolls and now back to small squares. The first small squares were for cattle, then rolls were able to be handled with tractor and less labor for storage/feeding, and now small squares being sold, primarily to horse owners.

Have you worked in hay before? There are a some recent topics that give costs of starting out in hay.

S


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## mlappin

FutureFarmer said:


> Hey yall I'm a first time poster on here and brand new into the industry. My wife and I currently live in Fort Worth and are looking at a 5yr plan to move out to East TX and get some land out there. We want to move out of the city and have approx 70 acres that we will hay 50 of. Like everyone else that moves from the city, we want to move out so that we can teach our kids how to work hard, be self reliant, and so the kids have place to run around and be kids and we dont have to worry so much of the problems associated with cities.
> 
> I've studdied a lot but got some questions that are unanswered:
> 
> 1) It seems that on Craigslist for East Texas 4x5 bales sell for approx $45. Assuming these are all about 700lbs a roll, that is about $135/ton. Meanwhile small square bales are selling for approx $6/bale. Assuming that these are about 60lbs/bale that is $200/ton.
> 
> Given that you can get $65/ton more with small bales, why would anyone sell in large round rolls?
> 
> 2) According to this at the bottom of page 16 it costs $110-120/ton to produce hay in TX. If that's true, why would anyone go through all the trouble of making round bales to sell at $135/ton to only profit $15-25/ton?
> 
> Thanks everyone!
> 
> Corey


First, most round balers can run circles around about any small square baler. Figure at least two small square balers to keep up with a good round baler and even then it may not be possible. Maintenance costs are also much less.

Small squares no matter how handled are labor intensive, so figure in paying help to get em put up.

I'm selling 800lb 1st cutting rd bales at $55/bale right now if they come and get it. Later cuttings are worth more than first, especially this year with about all first cutting being made late.

We used to do idiot bricks as well as we had a dairy back in the day and the round balers back then were crap. Was milking over 225 and always baled enough in small squares so dry hay was part of the ration for all the cows and feed free choice. Had about 400 acres in hay and took a LOT of help to get it done even chopping some of it for silage. A few years ago I was making around 225 acres of hay in round bales by myself so I had zero far as additional labor costs. This year I'm making about 150 acres by myself, all in rounds with everything paid for from selling quality hay regardless of the shape of the bale.

Being new to farming, you need to get this ideal out of your head right now that your going to turn a profit every year, let alone think you can set how much it will be, or you will be sorely disappointed at some point in the future. Not so very long ago in our area even premium small squares were barely selling for $100/ton with $80-90/ton being the norm. Row crops were in the crapper as well, the farm lost money and was in the red for several years, only bright side was the wife still had a good paying job in town.


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## Tim/South

Round bales are much less stress.

I have baled my last square bale. We made good money with squares about every third year. The other two years we made a small profit.

Just before I quit square baling I made good money delivering to the posh horse stables. It seemed at times they were in competition to see who could buy the best hay and pay the most for it. Army worms blindsided me and I decided I was tired.

Went to round bales and have never looked back.

Rolled 15 acres today that would be wet right now if it had been squared. The rolls were in the dry just as the first drops of rain began to fall.


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## rjmoses

I figure it costs $.25 every time I touch a sm. square bale: Pick it up in the field, put it in the barn, take it out of the barn, unload it at a customer's: that's $1 right there!

Ralph


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## R Ball

I agree with you Ralph on the handling cost. Quarter or more.


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## Teslan

One more reason that small bales sell for money then round bales at least in this area. They are easier to feed. People like their flakes in the small bales. So much that it kind of freaks some of them out even considering a larger square bale since the flakes are larger.


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## JD3430

Teslan said:


> One more reason that small bales sell for money then round bales at least in this area. They are easier to feed. People like their flakes in the small bales. So much that it kind of freaks some of them out even considering a larger square bale since the flakes are larger.


So true. I find round bales a tough sale to the older died in the wool sm sq buyer. 
One thing I can't seem to get through to them is that you can unroll the round bale and cut flakes off with a knife.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> So true. I find round bales a tough sale to the older died in the wool sm sq buyer.
> One thing I can't seem to get through to them is that you can unroll the round bale and cut flakes off with a knife.


That turns into too much work. Much easier to toss fifty pound bales around I guess.

A guy that buys from me plops the bale on it's end in the pasture, leaves the net on then drops a ring feeder around it as well, claims to have very little waste.


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## R Ball

mlappin said:


> That turns into too much work. Much easier to toss fifty pound bales around I guess.
> A guy that buys from me plops the bale on it's end in the pasture, leaves the net on then drops a ring feeder around it as well, claims to have very little waste.


That's interesting


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## Dill

Its all in labor and machinery. You pay the cost either way. Round baling costs me much less in labor, and I don't have to truck hay wagons around. But you will need a loader tractor on both ends, and a trailer to haul the hay. I've got a real short weather window this week so I'm baling a 10 acre piece into round bales. Figure I could make another 1k if I squared it but I'm not sure when the next rain storm is coming.


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## aawhite

I would also add that the $110-$120/ton cost to produce can be very variable from farm to farm. Variations in land land/equipment/fertilizer/chemical/fuel/labor/etc can be radically different. Also, how many acres are you spreading those costs over. I would use that as a very broad guideline, you will need to calculate your specific costs.

Same can be said of your selling price you quoted. What markets can you hit? Will you deliver/hirer delivery or is it pick-up only? How far away will you market? Send hay to auctions? I would say Craigslist is not a very good indicator of hay prices, a very broad estimate at best. Keep researching, as you are looking at tens of thousands of dollars in investment to get into equipment and operating costs to farm 50 acres of hay.


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## somedevildawg

Welcome to haytalk futurefarmer, you have made a good choice for your family IMO....

Farming can be very demanding work, whether it be growing hay or growing beans. Some skill sets are beneficial to farming...what type do you have?

Farming can be very expensive work, whether it be growing hay or growing corn. A deep pocket book is needed to "get in"....
What type if capital costs have you figured in?

Farming is about a way of life, whether it be growing hay or growing watermelons. I've made some of the best friends ever in the farming business, being from around this neck of the woods helps tremendously. Those are friendships that take time to establish but are essential to your survival as a farmer, figure in the necessary time you need to build those relationships.

Don't even think about square bales for a few years, you have lots to learn before then....and lots of money to spend 

Those figures you posted about costs....they are probably low....I don't know what they were somewhere north of $100 pa...?

Perhaps it different in Texas, you didn't say what you would be growing....that's a whole nuther discussion.....market

Need to really thnk about some of these things....call them "tools for survival" 
Good luck to you and your family, ifn you need assistance most of these folks will be happy to opin.....


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## JD3430

Dill said:


> Its all in labor and machinery. You pay the cost either way. Round baling costs me much less in labor, and I don't have to truck hay wagons around. But you will need a loader tractor on both ends, and a trailer to haul the hay. I've got a real short weather window this week so I'm baling a 10 acre piece into round bales. Figure I could make another 1k if I squared it but I'm not sure when the next rain storm is coming.


Not trying to nit pick, but you could gather up the bales with a inexpensive 3pt hitch spear, but you wouldn't be able to stack them or load them (easily). you'd only be able to feed them. 
Round bales may require a bit more up front investment, but they require far less labor to collect, store, load. 
I loaded and shipped 231 4x5 round bales yesterday and today. By the end of the day, I could pick up 2 4x5's at once and load them on the second layer of the trailer with my eyes closed.


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## Dill

Your right. I do so little hay right here at the farm that I forget that some people don't have to truck everything.

I've got 75 4x4s to load on a tractor trailer tomorrow morning. My only tractor trailer customer. The rest I haul.


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## JD3430

I also would add that you could buy an old backhoe or utility tractor with a front end loader for probably 5k about 1/2 the price of a new 100hp farm tractor FEL.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> I have done both and yes, small squares bring more money/ton IF you are willing to put in the back breaking labor to put them up, then bring them back down for customers when THEY want to buy them. Lots of hand work versus machine work for round bales. What I found was that more acreage can be done with round bales, so that you can make up for the less $ per ton price by baling a higher quantity of hay.


Something else that needs considered, with the ability to do more in a day with rounds you'll more usually than not end up making higher quality hay as well as you'll have a better chance of keeping up on getting fields mowed in a timely manner.


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## Hayman1

JD3430 said:


> I loaded and shipped 231 4x5 round bales yesterday and today. By the end of the day, I could pick up 2 4x5's at once and load them on the second layer of the trailer with my eyes closed.


Jd-It's called a hay coma!


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## Tim/South

mlappin said:


> Something else that needs considered, with the ability to do more in a day with rounds you'll more usually than not end up making higher quality hay as well as you'll have a better chance of keeping up on getting fields mowed in a timely manner.


This is a good point.

I have two friends who cut a lot of hay. We confer about when to cut hay next. There is a slim 3 day window and each of us put hay on the ground today.

One guy cut 30 acres. 25 Bahia to roll and 5 Bermuda to square. He would have cut all 25 acres of Bermuda if the weather window was not so iffy.

The other guy cut 20 acres to roll. He has not made a square bale all year, and he sells a few hundred each year to the local feed store.


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## Vol

Corey,

One could easily be discouraged by what is posted in this thread about square baling.....but, times have changed and it is not a "back breaking" job IF you don't want it to be. For about the same price of a top of the line net wrap round baler(4x5 or 6), you can buy a top of the line square baler, a Kuhns accumulator, and 2 grapples.

Yes, if you are just a 1 or 2 man band it takes longer to square than rounding, but the money is there in the SOUTH because of the abundance of horses. Lots and lots of horses in Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Texas and elsewhere in the Southland.

I have been square baling since the mid seventies and have never sold a quality bale for less than $130/ton HERE for grass and alot more than that since the early days. Currently $240 ton for grass(first) and over $300/ton for all alfalfa exact price dependant upon which cutting.

2 people can comfortably bale, gather and stack in the barn 700 bales in a afternoon(5 hours). You actually can do more than that if you want to push it, which I do not do anymore. You will not break a sweat with a accumulator and grapples as long as you have AC in your equipment.

One other thing, if you get a accumulator, be sure and get one that groups with a "tie" bales.

You can hay less acres and make more money with square bales. With 50-100 acres that would be the best choice to maximize profits for 1-2 people.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

Mike, I say this with all due respect and defer to your experience here:
I might also be assuming some things here, but if he's a beginner, I'm also assuming he doesn't have the money to afford a 30k round baler or a 30k sq baler, grapple and accumulator. That's why I gravitated towards round bales. I felt like I could get a start in the business with a 12k round baler. 12k wouldn't get me into a 1 man sm sq business without a lot of helpers or BB labor. 
If that's the situation hes in, he'd be looking at a used round baler, or a used sm sq baler and wagons, which would probably put him in the back breaking labor category.

Now if he's got enough $ to afford 30 k + on a baler, accum, grapple package, then yes, he might be able to eliminate a good portion of the tough work. 
I would also think he would need a more sophisticated and expensive storage barn. Perception is a big factor in selling hay. If you have a good, dry, clean barn, and a good product, you can get more for small bales. If he has an old barn ready to collapse or sq bales on pallets outside under a tarp, he's not going to get top dollar. 
Otoh, if I have round bales on pallets under tarps outside, most round bale buyers will not care TOO much. They might complain about spoiled bottoms, but they don't generally expect as much perfection in the product, hence the lower price per ton. 
I guess what I'm saying is, he won't need as nice or as expensive of a barn building for rounds, either. 
My goal until i find another bigger barn is I put my best 100 in a old barn completely dry, my next best 100 on pallets under tarps, and sell the rained on rest as mulch hay.
My last point: bigger bales are a little more attractive in my area because if you get ROH, you can roll it up and get rid of it for $100/ton. Not a kings ransome, but better than sm squares of ROH that few people will buy.

Not trying to be argumentative, just looking at it from a different angle.


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## Vol

JD3430 said:


> Not trying to be argumentative, just looking at it from a different angle.


I know your not being argumentative JD, but In this thread I believe I am the one that is looking from a different angle. Location as always is everything.

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South

You deal with a lot more crazy folks when you sell square bales. Takes more time to weed that garden.

There is no question that square bales sell for more money than the same hay in round bales. Squares also take more knowledge. It looks easy from the road.

Learning to operate equipment also takes time. If a person grew up running a loader then gathering with a grapple is second nature. Trying to push a group tight, then load it is not as simple as an experienced hand makes it look.

Every person I know who still does squares has migrated to the inline balers and grapple. They had years of experience with low capacity balers and stacking by hand, and the knowledge those years produced.


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## mlappin

I definitely can see where Mike is coming from, years ago anybody that hauled round bales to the sale might as well have put a free sign on em. usually lucky to bring half of what small squares did. back in those days though the only large squares you ever seen were trucked in from out west and the quality on those were dubious at best before the days of reliable applicators and a slew of preservatives to choose from.

I certainly don't do it every week or even every month but I have topped the sales with round bales.

Never haul junk to the sale, I sell that private or the beef cows get it. Never intentionally hide a bad spot where the buyers can't see it. If when unloading a bad spot turns up (a wet slug or what ever) I offer a bit of a cash refund on that one bale. Don't load the truck so the sides of your bottom bales are all hid on the inside of the load.

I've had other sellers rib me and claim the amish and mennonite just like me more, I point out that some of the buyers now were knee high to me and at the sale with their Daddy's when I first started hauling hay in for Dad.

May take longer than we like, but you will eventually reap what you sow.


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## Hayman1

Tim/South said:


> You deal with a lot more crazy folks when you sell square bales. Takes more time to weed that garden.
> 
> There is no question that square bales sell for more money than the same hay in round bales. Squares also take more knowledge. It looks easy from the road.
> 
> Learning to operate equipment also takes time. If a person grew up running a loader then gathering with a grapple is second nature. Trying to push a group tight, then load it is not as simple as an experienced hand makes it look.
> 
> Every person I know who still does squares has migrated to the inline balers and grapple. They had years of experience with low capacity balers and stacking by hand, and the knowledge those years produced.


Well one of us still uses a kicker baler and 5 wagons. Allows me to do over 800 bales at one time without dropping one on the ground which often has too much moisture here.

I would get a good used 60 pto hp open station with canopy tractor because no matter which way you go, hay or no hay, you need one on a farm. It is a good chore tractor size. As for starting your hay experience FutureFarmer, I started with a NH 451 sickle bar mower, a beat up and put to bed wet Kuhn 3pt 2 basket tedder, a even more beat up NH 55 rake and a NH273 hayliner that was already over 30 years old when I got it. You can probably replicate that equipment list for around 5k and you can get started without breaking the bank and you can learn a lot. As soon as you start figureing out what you really want, you can sell any or all of those pieces for what you paid for them leaving you only maintenance as sunk costs.


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## Tim/South

Hayman1 said:


> Well one of us still uses a kicker baler and 5 wagons. Allows me to do over 800 bales at one time without dropping one on the ground which often has too much moisture here.


How are they stacked in the barn? If done by hand it requires labor and cost.

We used a bale wagon to pick up and move to the barn but had to stack by hand. I could dump 200 an hour in the barn. The bale wagon was nice but in no way as efficient as an accumulator and grapple.


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## Hayman1

I can prop my wagons under roof except for the 6th one. Built a "bridge" that is a walkway from a wagon onto my GN so loading is a piece of cake. Used to do that at 5:30 am before it got hot then dropped trailer full at customers barn and picked up later in day empty. I only put about 20% max of my hay in my hay barn, the rest moves as I bale it. Yes there is some labor, but as I said, I have a policy of not putting baled hay on the ground.

We have a lot of small fields and tight turns- how does the Kuhn accumulator work in those conditions-looks really long


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## JD3430

That's where Im falling short. I need a drive thru pole shed. Wife and I have had really positive discussions about moving to a more suitable property, building a new house and a large barn. I want to put up massive quantities of round and small squares. 
My communist.....I mean township govt won't allow me to do anything more with my property. We're ready to take the leap and make this into something even more. 
I can't afford to buy a property just for a pole barn. Not around here.


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## JD3430

Vol said:


> I know your not being argumentative JD, but In this thread I believe I am the one that is looking from a different angle. Location as always is everything.
> Regards, Mike


Oh heck yeah. You may be in a terrible round bale market. Although I can't even sniff what MLappin is getting for roundies, I always have a steady buyer for the lower quality stuff that I get stuck with from time to time. 
Customer base, customer base, customer base.
It's like location, location, location for real estate. Wish I could get a bigger customer base for the better quality stuff.


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## foz682

I'm not sure about other areas, but around here most buyers are pretty well set up for round bales, not necessarily because they wanted to, but because that's what the guys making the hay were switching to.

Sure, the handful of guys selling small squares may be making more $ per tonne, but that's because they have a specific customer base that aren't set up for rounds and will pay the extra. Maybe I could sell small squares for more per tonne, but I know I can sell more tonnes of rounds to offset that difference.

If everyone switched back to squares, the end result would be everyone trying to undersell until no one was making any money at all, it's much better for sellers to provide diversity so that they're not directly competing with each other...


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## JD3430

Tim/South said:


> You deal with a lot more crazy folks when you sell square bales


You ain't kidding.


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## Tim/South

Hayman1 said:


> We have a lot of small fields and tight turns- how does the Kuhn accumulator work in those conditions-looks really long


I believe you can get a grapple anywhere a baler would go. You can also push the stack to tighten it up or move it a little. The guys I have seen running a grapple make it work like hand in glove.

I saw two men rake, bale and load 700 bales on three goosenecks. They were backed under a roof before dark. One man unloaded and stacked the bales the next morning.

The only time the hay is handled by hand is on a mis-tie.


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## somedevildawg

What happened to the OP....


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## FutureFarmer

somedevildawg said:


> What happened to the OP....


Haha I'm still here somedevildawg. I hate to be the guy that has a million questions and asks everything he wants answered without doing research on his own. So I figured I would let you guys all give your opinions which keeps answering my questions, meanwhile I'm studying daily. Thank you everyone for your input it helps me a lot.

A little more info. We would like to move out and get land, but cannot afford ~75 acres. However we looked at it as if the land essentially paid for itself with bermuda, then we would be able to afford it. I have a full time job that works a 5 on 5 off schedule so farming would be my second job. I don't mind buying older equipment and maintaining it, I can fix them (with help from yall ) so long as they are not all computer controlled.

1) Trying to come up with how much $ we can make per acre/year...In our area of East Texas, if I fertilize per soil test, is assuming 2 cuts a year and 4 tons per cut reasonable for coastal Bermuda or Tifton 85? (I believe that 3 cuts are average and 5-6 tons an acre is also average so If I budget at 2 cuts and 4 tons I think I am being conservative)

2) Can anyone confirm that the $110-120 to produce 1 ton of hay is pretty accurate for THIS region?

3) From what I've read it seems like a 60hp tractor will be enough hp to cut, rake and bail correct?

4) Are the prices for hay this time of year through fall cheap, then as late fall and winter hits the prices rise due to low supply??

Thanks again everyone for your input.


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## Vol

Hayman1 said:


> We have a lot of small fields and tight turns- how does the Kuhn accumulator work in those conditions-looks really long


About how many acres would you say these small fields would average? Small in Kansas might not be small in TN etc.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Tim/South said:


> You deal with a lot more crazy folks when you sell square bales. Takes more time to weed that garden.


Very true.....but after 4 or 5 years you can begin to use no-till.  What has really helped me about dealing with the horse and hay novices is that most of my customers take at least 100 bales or more at a time. I no longer have to advertise to sell my hay which eliminates the newbies. And I sell to area cooperatives. Every now and then I will get a call from a individual that will say that so and so at the co-op says that you supply them and I am wanting to buy direct from the grower. I first ask them how many bales they want....if they say I want 10 per week I tell them to just continue buying at the co-op. If they say I want 50 cause that is what I can get on my truck I tell them that I am a commercial producer and that my minimum is 100 bales.

Some say ok some do not....but either way it works out well for me. My customers really enjoy watching me load 150 bales on their GN trailers with my grapple....they do not have to sweat.

I do have a few older customers that buy a few bales at a time(10 or so) which I do not mind as they are good, civil folk who do not have the assets to buy more. I am more than willing to help that kind of folk and will continue to do so as long as the Lord lets me walk His earth.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

FutureFarmer....the most important thing that you can do is watch the hay market closely in YOUR AREA. Location is everything....why don't you send Bill Wilson(hay wilson in TX) a personal message and tell him what your intentions are and seek advice from him. He has been in the East Texas hay business a long time and he can be a great help for you. I cannot stress enough how important location is....find out what works for TX....because what necessarily will work in other regions of the country probably will not work in TX.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

Vol said:


> FutureFarmer....the most important thing that you can do is watch the hay market closely in YOUR AREA. Location is everything....why don't you send Bill Wilson(hay wilson in TX) a personal message and tell him what your intentions are and seek advice from him. He has been in the East Texas hay business a long time and he can be a great help for you. I cannot stress enough how important location is....find out what works for TX....because what necessarily will work in other regions of the country probably will not work in TX.
> 
> Regards, Mike


excellent points Mike


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## Dill

Also keep in mind that we are not all in the best of moods right now about haying. Its been a pretty lousy season up and down the eastern seaboard. Probably would have been a more positive response back in April.


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## somedevildawg

FutureFarmer said:


> Haha I'm still here somedevildawg. I hate to be the guy that has a million questions and asks everything he wants answered without doing research on his own. So I figured I would let you guys all give your opinions which keeps answering my questions, meanwhile I'm studying daily. Thank you everyone for your input it helps me a lot.
> A little more info. We would like to move out and get land, but cannot afford ~75 acres. However we looked at it as if the land essentially paid for itself with bermuda, then we would be able to afford it. I have a full time job that works a 5 on 5 off schedule so farming would be my second job. I don't mind buying older equipment and maintaining it, I can fix them (with help from yall ) so long as they are not all computer controlled.
> 1) Trying to come up with how much $ we can make per acre/year...In our area of East Texas, if I fertilize per soil test, is assuming 2 cuts a year and 4 tons per cut reasonable for coastal Bermuda or Tifton 85? (I believe that 3 cuts are average and 5-6 tons an acre is also average so If I budget at 2 cuts and 4 tons I think I am being conservative)
> 2) Can anyone confirm that the $110-120 to produce 1 ton of hay is pretty accurate for THIS region?
> 3) From what I've read it seems like a 60hp tractor will be enough hp to cut, rake and bail correct?
> 4) Are the prices for hay this time of year through fall cheap, then as late fall and winter hits the prices rise due to low supply??
> Thanks again everyone for your input.


Thought we lost ya with all our bellyaching about squares, rounds, rectangulars, triangles....anyway, in answer to your questions.

(1) You are being conservative, but that's cool, a good year prolly around 10-12 tpa, a dismal year 4 tpa, somewhere in between....
(2) some closer may have a better answer...but yes that seems about right in terms of amendments, but it may or may not include herbicide, insecticide, and lime. My guess is it doesn't include those things. Add a bit more.....
(3) 80 hp would be better, if its going to be a cab, perhaps 100hp, no cab?....go to nearest doctor and get head examined
(4) yes, more because of demand than supply but the two are universally related....

Hope it helps...


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## Hayman1

Vol said:


> About how many acres would you say these small fields would average? Small in Kansas might not be small in TN etc.
> 
> Regards, Mike


The biggest field is 13 acres but has rock islands in it that have to be worked around. I look at some of those fields in the machinery adds that are flat, no rocks and look to be two miles long and drool at the thought of being able to bale with a GPS and a beer. I would say that my stuff runs 3-7 ac for the most part, and I am haying about 80-90 ac by myself. Hire a kid to stack my gn for deliveries and sometimes my wife teds adn rakes but you know how that goes. Don't think I will let her on the new 5075M and Krone rr for a while.


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## JD3430

I just got a new round bale customer this week. He'll buy 150/yr or more for $70/bale.
Not huge money, but I'm pretty satisfied. 
I gotta get my fields cleaned up and get a respectable sprayer!!!!


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## Tim/South

JD3430 said:


> I just got a new round bale customer this week. He'll buy 150/yr or more for $70/bale.
> Not huge money, but I'm pretty satisfied.
> I gotta get my fields cleaned up and get a respectable sprayer!!!!


Congratulations on the new customer.

Something you may consider is having some of the fields sprayed by a CO-OP type store.

I have a 300 gallon sprayer I use on the farm. I do not like to pull the sprayer down the road when it is full if I have to go very far.

I had my farthest fields sprayed this year by Southern States. They charged $9 per acres to spray, plus chemicals.

I do not like to pay for something I can do myself but found it was money well spent for me.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> I just got a new round bale customer this week. He'll buy 150/yr or more for $70/bale.
> Not huge money, but I'm pretty satisfied.
> I gotta get my fields cleaned up and get a respectable sprayer!!!!


Congratulations! That's not bad at all, I'm selling first cutting horse hay for $55/bale and they come and get it, 4-5 years ago good horse hay was $40/bale here.


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## JD3430

Kind of lit a fuse under me and got me a little motivation. 
Nothin like gettin a little green for cuttin a little green....


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## Tim/South

JD3430 said:


> Kind of lit a fuse under me and got me a little motivation.
> Nothin like gettin a little green for cuttin a little green....


That would light a fuse under anybody. This is grass hay, correct?

For someone relatively new to the hay making business you are leap frogging to the head of the pack. Says a lot about a person.


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## JD3430

Tim/South said:


> That would light a fuse under anybody. This is grass hay, correct?
> For someone relatively new to the hay making business you are leap frogging to the head of the pack. Says a lot about a person.


Great....thanks.....now I'm going to have to live up to that compliment!!!

But seriously, thanks Tim. And yes, it's mostly orchard grass, reeds canary and maybe some Timothy. 
I know just enough about how to cut, Ted, rake and bale to be dangerous. 
Now I have to learn how to improve my stands by no till seeding, but after crunching the numbers, I don't see me having a lot more I can spend to improve them.


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## somedevildawg

Congrats jd, we can't get that for a round here.....not even premium/net wrap 1000# bale will fetch that, here....65 seems about tops...tried to get 70 one year and wound up with a barn full of hay....and, I have about 35 a roll in amendment costs alone...


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## FarmerCline

Yep, like it was talked about before there is not much money in round bales in many areas of the south...here $40 is the going rate for a 4x5 roll of hay...that is why I got out of round bales but there has been times where I have some lower quality hay that I wish I could round bale as I can't give away square bales that are not high quality. I could only dream about $70 round bales. For me in my area square bales is the only way to go...and yes it may be a bit more aggrevation but that is just where the money is. Now I just have to figure out what the best way for me to handle square bales is going to be...an accumulator would work but a bale bandit would be awfully nice but I don't think I want to sink that much money into one right now.


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## Vol

Yeah a Bale Bandit or Baron either would be real nice. Maybe we can get lucky and be like Somedevildawg and find a heck of a deal on a used Baron/Bandit. The Bandit's have improved so much since they first came out...and I understand the Bandit people bend over backwards to help their clients.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

JD3430 said:


> I just got a new round bale customer this week. He'll buy 150/yr or more for $70/bale.
> Not huge money, but I'm pretty satisfied.
> I gotta get my fields cleaned up and get a respectable sprayer!!!!


Nice going JD-

I don't think we would get that for 4x5s grass here-I suppose some have but the problem is there are too many cowboys making late cut trash 4x5s that are flooding the market. Not even sure you would call some of it cow hay- however when they advertise in the Valley Trader at 20-25$ a roll it hurts all the legit guys. I keep close tabs on my cost of production and like devildawg-I got around 30 in fertilizer and spraying then have to pay someone 15$ to net roll- I do cutting, tedding and raking and transport to barn. So, I am in the 45$/roll in costs before I get started. That's why I don't have an RB and do squares. My rolls are an emergency outlet when I am tired of making squares, have full wagons or immediately pending rain.

70$/roll guarenteed would give me incentive to buy a JD458 net baler!


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## somedevildawg

Hayman...that's exactly what we do, anything not top notch goes into rounds, all first cuttin goes into rounds, all field edges go to rounds, all pre-soaked (not pre-washed) and tedded to death hay goes to rounds. If the window is close, it goes to rounds, hence the reason I have very few squares in the barn this year. Did bale a few yesterday and Friday, think we pulled about 1200 out, then rolled the rest. If this crap keeps up ill be back in the round bale business, normally I only feed up rounds....that's better for me than selling for amendment cost.....


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## JD3430

I'm sure there's no guarantees and I could lose this customer as fast as I got him, but its going to help. 
Weird how round bales don't seem to catch on for most of the southern hay balers and the price is so suppressed. 
Seems like round bales have become a close second to sm sqs up here. Customers are realizing the cost savings and learning to use a compact tractor and a feeder to handle them. Still plenty who won't touch them, though.


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## Hayman1

JD3430 said:


> Weird how round bales don't seem to catch on for most of the southern hay balers and the price is so suppressed.
> Seems like round bales have become a close second to sm sqs up here. Customers are realizing the cost savings and learning to use a compact tractor and a feeder to handle them.


I think we may have a different market. Our horse people are predominantly competition horse owners or small barns with 1-2 pleasure horses. Most of those people bring their horses in at night in the cold season and out at night in the summer. So they are eating outside only 1/2 the day. If the horses are hard keepers and need lots of hay to maintain weight, then a good small round bale in warmer months might work. If the horses are pigs (like my perch cross and wifes paint) they would never leave the bale adn you would need a crane to move them. In those cases, small squares are just much easier. If you have a field of polo ponies, rounds work fine as they get eaten before spoilage. We use rounds in half our paddocks from about Dec through march. After that there is normally enough grass to keep them going. Just put out my first round today because there was no grass left-we'll see what they do.

In the competition horse market-we have lots of eventers here and a fair number of show jumpers. Their horses are on a fairly tight regimen on feed and supplements and those folks usually only use rounds in the winter for free choice hay when the horses are out in the paddocks. All the stall feed is small squares. When you are running 40 boarded horses for training, you have to decide what is really important to get through the day-saving money by unrolling a round bale for stall feed vs exercising and training the horse that you are getting paid to do-just not enough hours in the day.


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## swmnhay

We feed Karens hayburner "Thunder" off a round bale.Peal it off with a pitchfork.2nd cutting grass hay is short and peals off pretty easy.Limit feed it or it would eat all day.

A lot of horse folk here have switched to rds just because there are not many small sqrs available.

2 of the bigger sm sq producers in area have quit in last couple yrs.They had the setup for it grapples or bandit.One retired and other is doing mostly lg sqrs.


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## JD3430

Covered feeders solve the spoilage problem.
With the price of round bales down south, I would think southern herd owners would be all over a covered feeder when round bales sell for $35/bale.


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## hillside hay

Hayman1 said:


> I think we may have a different market. Our horse people are predominantly competition horse owners or small barns with 1-2 pleasure horses. Most of those people bring their horses in at night in the cold season and out at night in the summer. So they are eating outside only 1/2 the day. If the horses are hard keepers and need lots of hay to maintain weight, then a good small round bale in warmer months might work. If the horses are pigs (like my perch cross and wifes paint) they would never leave the bale adn you would need a crane to move them. In those cases, small squares are just much easier. If you have a field of polo ponies, rounds work fine as they get eaten before spoilage. We use rounds in half our paddocks from about Dec through march. After that there is normally enough grass to keep them going. Just put out my first round today because there was no grass left-we'll see what they do.
> 
> In the competition horse market-we have lots of eventers here and a fair number of show jumpers. Their horses are on a fairly tight regimen on feed and supplements and those folks usually only use rounds in the winter for free choice hay when the horses are out in the paddocks. All the stall feed is small squares. When you are running 40 boarded horses for training, you have to decide what is really important to get through the day-saving money by unrolling a round bale for stall feed vs exercising and training the horse that you are getting paid to do-just not enough hours in the day.


Also, the show people and others who trailertheir horses a lot like to be able to travel with their "known quality" hay. Nothinglike traveling 300+ miles for an event and not being able to keep the horse supplied with a consistent feed ration.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> I'm sure there's no guarantees and I could lose this customer as fast as I got him, but its going to help.
> Weird how round bales don't seem to catch on for most of the southern hay balers and the price is so suppressed.
> Seems like round bales have become a close second to sm sqs up here. Customers are realizing the cost savings and learning to use a compact tractor and a feeder to handle them. Still plenty who won't touch them, though.


That's how it started out around here, rounds were dirt cheap and horse people wouldn't touch em. Then a couple of times with a short hay supply and people would feed whatever they could buy, the ones that figured it out quick stayed with feeding rounds. Now there is still a consistent demand for round bales regardless of supply. One year I sold 60% of my production for horse feed.


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## somedevildawg

JD3430 said:


> Covered feeders solve the spoilage problem.
> With the price of round bales down south, I would think southern herd owners would be all over a covered feeder when round bales sell for $35/bale.


You ain't gonna buy "good" hay for $35, but you might buy some "poor" hay for $25......"low grade" for 30-35....."average grade" for 35-40...."good" for 40-50....."prime" for.....50-65

However, most peeps down here baling have started to do the Little Debbie oatmeal pie deal.....rounds now average about 700 lbs....mine weigh in at 950-1000.... I did the little Debbie gig....couldn't stand getting all those bales out....and not make enough $

That's what buyers down here do...they buy by the bale....just refuse to do math, go figure


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## Dill

4x4s are the popular size to sell around here. The guys making 4x5s are feeding their own cows.
I've had good luck getting horse people to feed the 4x4s cause you can move them with a little tractor and barring that you can roll them decently enough. I have one cow guy who buys 80-100 rounds from me, and my father sells 150-200 to a sheep farm. Other than that its horse people. But come winter they are back to buying squares which means we will keep making both.


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