# Tedding Pure Alfalfa



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Does anyone out there have experience tedding pure alfalfa? What can you tell me about it? Wondering if it is a waste of time to try or not. We cut with a 14' head, condition, and drop in a 7-8' windrow.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Gearclash said:


> Does anyone out there have experience tedding pure alfalfa? What can you tell me about it? Wondering if it is a waste of time to try or not. We cut with a 14' head, condition, and drop in a 7-8' windrow.


For me it was a waste of time. I cut about the same, but a 15 foot head. However I suspect the humidity here is much less then yours. I tedded about 7 acres in one field to see how it went. The leaves dried faster then what I didn't ted, but the stems dried at the same time. I also noticed though I tedded, and raked with plenty of dew when it came time to bale the tedded hay lost leaves more then then untedded hay.

Now a couple people on here suggested to ted in the morning then rake and bale in the afternoon/evening. That doesn't work here unless I have something against quality alfalfa. Maybe it would work for you.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I try to ted alfalfa within 12 hours, but not more than 24 hours after mowing. Leaves still have enough moisture that there is no leaf shatter. After 24 hours, leaves are usually too dry and I will have leaf loss.

If the ground is dry enough, I spread as wide a windrow as possible and not ted. When the ground is wetter, I spread as narrow as possible, then come back the next morning and ted as the dew is burning off.

I am trying to balance ground moisture vs drying time, vs leaf loss/shatter vs color.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I ted my alfalfa out the morning that I bale. Works great here and I don't seem to suffer the consequences that Teslan mentioned. Bales great with not too much leaf loss.

Shouldn't be too difficult to do a "test" strip and see how it works for your locale Gearclash.

Regards, Mike


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

"Now a couple people on here suggested to ted in the morning then rake and bale in the afternoon/evening. That doesn't work here unless I have something against quality alfalfa. Maybe it would work for you"

Wouldn't want to do that here either unless we wanted leaf free alfalfa. Any raking or tedding would need to be done before the leaves get totally dry. We are trying to make top quality dairy hay (for our own use).

Vol, the problem is no one here even has a tedder that we can borrow. We would pretty much have to buy one to find out how they work.

I would be thinking to tedder soon after cutting--anything to promote faster stem dry down.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Gearclash you are marginal for the need for a tedder, but not needed if you can get your mower conditioner to drop the hay drop your hay in a wide enough swath to cover 75% of the ground.

Teslan probably will never recover the dry matter lost to using a tedder.

The School solution is you will loose 5% of your leaves raking or using a tedder at 50% moisture. Using ether when the hay is wet with dew is about half of that. I like to rake at first light on the day before I expect to bale.
Say rake on day 3 and bale on day 4.

In Colorado the night temperature is probably low enough there is little or no over night respiration. In Iowa the over night temperatures may be high enough to support over night respiration, which causes loss of quality and quantity hay.

Our academic friends who actually measure the losses from shattering tell us the losses due to running a tire over the hay is less than the loss to raking and the tractor on clean stubble.

Now that I modified my 9 ft MO CO to drop the hay in a 88% wide swath, I quit using my tedder.
Well this year I used the tedder at 3 PM and 540 PTO RPM's trying to knock as many leaves off as possible. With our heavy clay soils and a 2 inch rain, the hay was ruined before I could get on the ground with equipment.

The theory I use here is the leaves can be dried down to 30% moisture with 5 hours of good sunshine. While the stems are still at 40% or even 50% moisture. The leaves will rehydrate over night some with a real dew.

My theory I work on is the stems and the leaves, at sunset on my day before baling. During our Summer Drought we do not have enough dew to bale even at night, HERE. ( Late July and most of August )
During our annual drought we seldom have enough humidity to rake let alone use a tedder. When we irrigated we raked the first thing the morning before mowing at the latest. Usually raked right after mowing.

Our Learned Ph.D who measures results says we can bale more per acre if we drop the hay in a nice narrow windrow and let cure there. Combining the windrows before the mower is done in the field. In fact most of the information on leaf shatter comes form the one PhD and every one else just copies their data.
No need to reinvent the wheel.

For years I used information from the Arid West and from the Humid East. Then looked at Oklahoma's information for my conditions. The best was the Oklahoma Forage Specialist's was the best, but I lost that source.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Gearclash said:


> I would be thinking to tedder soon after cutting--anything to promote faster stem dry down.


No question about the faster stem dry down, but when I tried that approach here the alfalfa bleached terribly bad here and no one was interested in buying. When I let dry in the windrow for a few days and tedded out early the morning I baled I had a much more appealing product(very green). But that is what works here, and I know your results can vary being that you are much further North.

Regards, Mike.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I do think Gearclash with some experimentation that you would find a tedder useful and very useful for baling grass. But, if you don't like to experiment to try and find what might work for your locale, then it likely would be a waste of time and resources.

Regards, Mike


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Agree completely with the usefulness of a tedder in grass. Past efforts with a fluffer style tedder have convinced me of that. However, results with the fluffer in alfalfa have almost always been a disappointment. I would like to try a real tedder, but I would have to convince the senior management to buy one, as there are so few around.

As far as making a wider windrow coming right out of the mower, that would really be the best. Currently we are at 50-60% windrow coverage, but I don't know if we can really go any wider on a self propelled mower.

Our climate is wildly variable. Every thing from desert conditions to humid East conditions. In the event of hot weather and low humidity, getting alfalfa dry is not a problem. Most often we have to deal with more humid conditions where dew is fairly heavy at night and relative humidities might not get below 55% during the afternoon heat. We have realized over the years that the millions of acres of row crops surrounding us are a giant humidity generator that makes hay drying a challenge most of the summer.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

For grass hay I really like tedding. Cuts down a day or 2. I Have learned that I have to ted within a couple of hours or the Tedder won't spread as well. The best I've found for grass is cut late morning and ted soon after and grass will really cute out good here. With a 9 foot mower I suppose you wouldn't need to Ted as soon because they work better with tedders. I don't think tedders are really designed for over 12 foot swathers so that's why if I let me grass cure even a little bit it won't spread to well. Also to get a good spread I have to spread my windrow out as far as I can which is maybe 7 feet. So on a six rotor Tedder the two middle rotors can grab something.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Here we get pretty heavy dews at night so I mow one day, and ted the next morning then can usually bale that afternoon, if I feel it's getting dry enough leaf loss will be an issue I'll wait till the next morning to rake.

Actually wit the weather we've had here the last two or three years if it wasn't for a tedder I wouldn't of been able to make any dry hay.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

hay wilson in TX said:


> In Colorado the night temperature is probably low enough there is little or no over night respiration. In Iowa the over night temperatures may be high enough to support over night respiration, which causes loss of quality and quantity hay.


This was mentioned in another thread by Hugh aa week or so ago. And I believe this to be right. As I still have a hard time believing you guys in the east can bale alfalfa in 2 days without burning up haystacks. But that sorta explains it.

And that is why I feel tedding does me and maybe Gearclash not much good. Because tedding doesn't really help cure stems here. Which is why I also dislike alfalfa/grass mix. Like right now I have a field of newly seeded grass hay this year. There is alfalfa growing in it from previous years as well as some lambs quarter weeds. I cut it on Thursday morning. The grass is dry now. But the stems of the alfalfa and lambs quarter I seriously doubt will be cured tomorrow even. And this I did ted.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

My experience with grass alfalfa mix has been positive. The grass fraction dries faster, so it helps pull the average moisture down if the alfalfa stems are tough yet. It also seems that the grass acts as a cushion for the alfalfa during raking and baling, thus reducing leaf loss, but this may be wishful thinking on my part. There are disadvantages to grass/alfalfa mix, but they are not related to this discussion.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Gearclash said:


> My experience with grass alfalfa mix has been positive. The grass fraction dries faster, so it helps pull the average moisture down if the alfalfa stems are tough yet. It also seems that the grass acts as a cushion for the alfalfa during raking and baling, thus reducing leaf loss, but this may be wishful thinking on my part. There are disadvantages to grass/alfalfa mix, but they are not related to this discussion.


Thats been my experience, you seem to get less alfalfa leaf shatter when its in a grass mix. The only disadvantage I would know of in a mix would be weed control.

The last five years or so here has been getting harder to get a good price out of straight alfalfa, most want a mix.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Teslan said:


> This was mentioned in another thread by Hugh aa week or so ago. And I believe this to be right. As I still have a hard time believing you guys in the east can bale alfalfa in 2 days without burning up haystacks. But that sorta explains it.


Possibly, but with those lower temps at night comes more dew, and later in the year it may take till noon or later to get rid of the dew before the hay ever starts drying.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Possibly, but with those lower temps at night comes more dew, and later in the year it may take till noon or later to get rid of the dew before the hay ever starts drying.


That's true. In September it can take a week or more for alfalfa. 5-6 days for grass hay.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

If I were to Ted pure alfalfa, it would be immediately after cutting. I would not wait. The reason is that I believe waiting for the cut to dry, even a little, will lead to leaf shatter while tedding. Since you are dropping a 14' swath into a 7-8 foot windrow, tedding would then reduce your total depth by 40-50%, and spread the plants out so that they can expire. Sun is the main drying factor the first day, in that, when alfalfa "sees" light, it continues to grow. This growth expels moisture through the stoma of the leaves.

My opinion: cut at 10AM and Ted ASAP. Two tractors might be best if you have a lot of acres.

If you can lay the windrows out to 12 feet or more, rather than 7-8', that is with a 14' swath, then you don't need to ted. My opinion...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hugh said:


> The reason is that I believe waiting for the cut to dry, even a little, will lead to leaf shatter while tedding.


Conditions are so much different across this country that what works for one person, will not fit anothers conditions.....Here, I can easily wait 3-4 days with alfalfa in a windrow and then ted early in the morning with no leaf shatter....maybe I might possibly loose a whole leaf(s) that maybe were weak and yellow, but that will be it.

How is that possible?.....most mornings are heavy with dew here and no leaf dryness to cause shatter....I ted as the dew is leaving and get the windrow to fan out nicely.

Here, if I allow the windrow to sit for a few days I get some drying even deep into the windrow while minimizing my color loss other than the top.....and when I do ted and fan out the windrow the stems will dry quickly enough to allow me to bale that day....and if necessary I will use some preservative to get it baled.

I will rake around noon with still some suppleness to the leaf.....let sit another hour or so and then begin to bale.

I tried to bale alfalfa the way several of the fellas on here recommend and it just would not work here.....I ended up with bleached out sticks.

All of us have to experiment and see what will work BEST for us......things are very much different all over this country.

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Hugh said:


> If I were to Ted pure alfalfa, it would be immediately after cutting. I would not wait. The reason is that I believe waiting for the cut to dry, even a little, will lead to leaf shatter while tedding. Since you are dropping a 14' swath into a 7-8 foot windrow, tedding would then reduce your total depth by 40-50%, and spread the plants out so that they can expire. Sun is the main drying factor the first day, in that, when alfalfa "sees" light, it continues to grow. This growth expels moisture through the stoma of the leaves.
> 
> My opinion: cut at 10AM and Ted ASAP. Two tractors might be best if you have a lot of acres.
> 
> If you can lay the windrows out to 12 feet or more, rather than 7-8', that is with a 14' swath, then you don't need to ted. My opinion...


I think one would have to have the tedder pretty much following the swather. That's basically what I do tedding grass hay. With a 14+ swather I don't think any of the SP allow it to be spread out more then 7-8 feet. I know my MF doesn't.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

If I raked alfalfa in the afternoon I'd have a bunch of sticks.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Gearclash said:


> Does anyone out there have experience tedding pure alfalfa? What can you tell me about it? Wondering if it is a waste of time to try or not. We cut with a 14' head, condition, and drop in a 7-8' windrow.


I have a Tedder that would cover two of your windrows. You are welcome to try it if you want. That being said I hate it in pure alfalfa. It doesn't help enough to justify the leaf loss that comes with its use. And it doesn't spread it out evenly enough. Money better spent to get alfalfa dry faster would be better rolls, but you are welcome to try my Tedder if you need to experience it first hand


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

IAhaymakr said:


> I have a Tedder that would cover two of your windrows. You are welcome to try it if you want. That being said I hate it in pure alfalfa. It doesn't help enough to justify the leaf loss that comes with its use. And it doesn't spread it out evenly enough. Money better spent to get alfalfa dry faster would be better rolls, but you are welcome to try my Tedder if you need to experience it first hand


I see you have a Krone 6 basket. How do you like it? I don't feel my NH tedder is built good enough for me so I might try and sell it or trade it then get the Krone 7.82 6x7 like you have. 3 point. I would use it in grass hay. Only alfalfa if it gets rained and rained and rained on again.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Grass - Alfalfa mixture.

I actually like a grass alfalfa mixture but my customers DONOT!

My calcareous soil ties up any and all spread phosphate fertilizer. The grasses have a root fungus that reverses this reaction and brings phosphate into the root systems.

We all try to use a management style that is best for our climate and soil restraints.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

mlappin said:


> Here we get pretty heavy dews at night so I mow one day, and ted the next morning then can usually bale that afternoon, if I feel it's getting dry enough leaf loss will be an issue I'll wait till the next morning to rake.
> 
> Actually wit the weather we've had here the last two or three years if it wasn't for a tedder I wouldn't of been able to make any dry hay.


I think we probably have similar weather, but I can't imagine mowing one day and baling the next. We normally mow one day, ted the next, and rake and bale the 3rd day. What moisture are you baling at? Do you have after market conditioning rolls?


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## covenanthay (Oct 2, 2009)

mlappin said:


> Here we get pretty heavy dews at night so I mow one day, and ted the next morning then can usually bale that afternoon, if I feel it's getting dry enough leaf loss will be an issue I'll wait till the next morning to rake.
> 
> Actually wit the weather we've had here the last two or three years if it wasn't for a tedder I wouldn't of been able to make any dry hay.


Are you saying , for example, you cut on a Monday, ted on Tuesday morning and bale Tuesday afternoon. That would never work in NW Ohio and I don't think our weather is that much different.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Teslan said:


> I see you have a Krone 6 basket. How do you like it? I don't feel my NH tedder is built good enough for me so I might try and sell it or trade it then get the Krone 7.82 6x7 like you have. 3 point. I would use it in grass hay. Only alfalfa if it gets rained and rained and rained on again.


It has served me well for about six years now. We have repaired the guards a few times but never had anything go wrong that prevented it from working. It has been over a lot of acres, and even used on windrowed corn stalks that got too much rain and needed to be scattered out. Far better machine than the Kuhn it replaced


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Best Time to use the Tedder, HERE.

The day the hay is cut it should be laying on the ground in as wide a swath as practical.
Being a one man band that was/is rather difficult to manage.

So I took the windrow shaping doors off my NH 411 Diskbine. The result was 66% of the ground was covered by the swath.
So I modified the NH 411 (early version, OLD) with the NH hay spreading fins. (Really 4 of the combine chaff spreader fins. As installed it resulted in 88% of the ground covered by the swath. I am happy with that.
A few times on a extra thin stand I put the windrow shaping doors on to cut the swath width down enough to be able to rake the hay. The reason for this exercise is for as much of the hay to be exposed to the direct sunshine.
Until the hay is put in the dark the stomata in the leaves remain open and the most water in the least time escapes from the plant. When the hay is in the dark those stomata, holes, close off and reduces the moisture escaping. Then we are reduced to only openings from conditioning.

Bermudagrass is different than alfalfa as it starts off with 70% leaves. Bermudagrass cut with a simple disk mower, & swath board removed, will dry faster then conditioned alfalfa. HERE I mow alfalfa from Mid June to late August with the simple mower, to avoid contaminating the alfalfa with Blister Beetle Juice. It also cost less per acre to mow this way.

I will use the NH 411 on grass if there is enough thick stems with weeds in the stand.

A tedder is rebutted to save hay that has been rained on. I find if we get that much rain the hay is ruined. Then I use the tedder running at 540 PTO RPM's to knock as many leaves off the stems cutting the amount of ruined hay in half that needs to be disposed of. That STUFF goes to the gravel pit.

In the Good Old Day's I would rake the using two rakes ganged together. That was during the drought of the 50's.

We will see what the future brings. Every practice I used to put up hay is nowan obsolete management style. Been There Done That.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

How about a NH windrow inverter?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

hay wilson in TX said:


> We will see what the future brings. Every practice I used to put up hay is nowan obsolete management style. Been There Done That.


Too true, too true!

Ralph


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