# Frame rust



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We have a Chevy SUV surprisingly enough is just 12 years old, and where a rear control arm attaches to the frame side , the frame is rotted threw and the area is probably 3 incheson in diameter. .. can you attempt to repair a frame or is the vehicle pretty much junk


----------



## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

I'm nearly certain that a repaired frame is not passable in an annual PA state inspection. You could possibly repair it and put a yellow farm sticker on it? Probably not real useful for an SUV. That's a crying shame for a 12 year old ride.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

endrow said:


> We have a Chevy SUV surprisingly enough is just 12 years old, and where a rear control arm attaches to the frame side , the frame is rotted threw and the area is probably 3 incheson in diameter. .. can you attempt to repair a frame or is the vehicle pretty much junk


Frame shops repair frames all the time, if from a collision may require cutting and welding. Not sure if you had a reputable shop fix it if it would pass your inspections or not.

I'm not real impressed with what passes for frames in most vehicles these days.


----------



## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I know of several frames that have been repaired/welded one being the old farm truck that passed inspection. Just need to find a competent welder.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

paoutdoorsman said:


> I'm nearly certain that a repaired frame is not passable in an annual PA state inspection. You could possibly repair it and put a yellow farm sticker on it? Probably not real useful for an SUV. That's a crying shame for a 12 year old ride.


Oh but I think they are as long as it is done right. I don't think you can put a sticker on anything with auto plates so it depends on if his ute has car or truck plates.


----------



## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

My understanding is you can weld a piece in but you have to do a good job.

Other thing my mechanic told me is the Pa state inspection agents are going to large shopping centers walking around looking for problem cars with fresh inspections If the car has bad rust problems or bad rotors which is easy to see with these new wheels. They they go after the mechanics inspection license and have actually shut some garages down in my area.

I am going tomorrow to help my mom do paper work for a newer suv because her 1999 grand Caravan won't pass inspection 68,000 miles on it. Last year she drove a total of 1800 miles. Thankfully she has the money to buy something newer.


----------



## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

A few years ago, a neighbor had a car that wouldn't pass PA inspection because of corrosion. I think he sold it for scrap. Now that was a car with uni-body construction, it wasn't an SUV with a frame.


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Frames can be welded and repaired. If I remember correctly its a decision by the inspection mechanic as to whether the repair is roadworthy and safe.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Many light duty vehicles have mild steel frames. Might be up to 50KSI steel, but it's still mild steel. It's the reason you see factory welds on new frames, They're weldable.

When reinforcing a frame, the main concern is the transit point from rigid to flexible. You create a stress point where the reinforcement terminates. It's not a bad thing per se, but it has to be considered. You need to look at just where the frame needs the most ductility, and build accordingly. Don't wanna take something supposed to be bendy, and make it rigid. Behind a pickup cab is a bad spot to reinforce.

Full pen welds with a fishplate, or liner, is the acceptted procedure. Tubular sections can be welded, then sleeved.

Just try to imagine where the most fatigue might occur, and design accordingly.

Because most modern frames are pretty thin.........Put a weld on the backside, with a proper gap for full penetration. Then go to the front side, and grind out a "v" until you hit your previous weld. This ensures that you have a good weld without inclusions. Then put your final pass on the front side.

I have a simple example I can show after I get back.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Never got around to this.

Here's a simple repair on formed channel.

The break (most likely a fatigue problem)








The ends are gound out in a "V", but with a land. They're not entirely ground through. The land serves to hold original dimensions when joining the two pieces for welding.








This is what's referred to as a land.






This has been beveled from both sides with a thin area not ground. This holds the dimensions without guessing.

The pieces are drawn together








A weld is placed on the backside of the channel, then the front side is further ground out until you are into the weld you placed on the backside. Full penetration.








Glue it up, and call it a day.








I suppose you could use MIG, or either self shielding/gas shielded flux core, but I'm a stick guy. Only thing I trust on anything thicker than 1/8". 7018 is the go-to for stuff like this.


----------



## pede58 (Oct 27, 2015)

Not to hijack this thread but stick or mig has nothing to do with thickness of the steel, it's all about amps. Your good looking pass shows your comfortable with the stick but from 18ga to 2in I'll take my 650amp mig.

This is not a farm repair but can be fixed as long as you have some good material around it to weld, state may require a certified welder to preform this task.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

pede58 said:


> Not to hijack this thread but stick or mig has nothing to do with thickness of the steel, it's all about amps. Your good looking pass shows your comfortable with the stick but from 18ga to 2in I'll take my 650amp mig.
> 
> This is not a farm repair but can be fixed as long as you have some good material around it to weld, state may require a certified welder to preform this task.


We don't have state inspections here anymore. Non commercial vehicles aren't required to meet any standards.

DOT is another matter, and I assume it's as bad in all states. You can expect to pay a few hundred dollars anytime the DOT dood pulls you over. They WILL find something :angry:

I can see why they might want a certified welder to do the work, but I've seen some pretty lousy "certified" welds in both the heavy truck, and structural steel fields.

Problem with heavy equipment, and automotive repair is that it takes more than a good welder. It's a multi disciplined thing. Familiarity with proper placement of reinforcements to reduce fatigue failures etc...&#8230;&#8230; Takes more than the ability to run a welding machine.

I don't even trust a specialty shop to work on my stuff. I know it sounds arrogant, but it's just my over concern with quality. It has to be right.

Bought a used float some years back. One of my typical purchases......a basket case  1500 bucks 

Pulled it home from Cape Cirardeau MO (was put out of service on the way home for rubbing brake lines, and bad brake pot)

Anyways, finally got it home, and pulled it into the "shop" for a facelift. Primarily a new suspension.

Talk about a mess.

First off, I didn't even have proper jackstands for something this large. Had to fabricate a pair.








The trailer had an air suspension underneath it. Was rusted almost completely through on the trailing arms. It had to go.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Picked up a Hutch suspension over in Tulsa, and headed back home with the bits and pieces :lol: Hutch is a very good company, with excellent support. Full installation procedures, including WP's, are available from their engineering department. WP's are critical for this kinda thing.

Anyways, in with the new...



























Probably the biggest PITA was removing the brake system from the old slider, and tucking it up underneath the frame.








After the epic battle, she's ready to hit the road 








I don't care if a guy's certified, or not. I simply don't trust anyone to do stuff that's safety sensitive.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Little FYI to you guys that are running this stuff down the road. If you already aren't familiar with it.

If you have a DOT number, you're subject to the occassional DOT safety audit. If you do your own work, and you have confidence in your work, you can self certify as the "certified mechanic" (or something like that). This allows you to do anything you want on your stuff, including the annual inspection form. But beware........the buck stops with you if there's a fatality, or property damage.

Also beware that any Highway Patrol dood that pulls ya over for an inspection can immediately become a "welding inspector" and a "structural engineer" when he sees obvious repair work. Half ass work will get you shut down in a heart beat.

I run over 150 miles from the farm, and go over state lines, so had to have a DOT number. I don't like it, but it is what it is I guess. Been thinking of giving up the number till the next time there's a bad drought, and the trucks have to go on the road again. You can get popped even when trucks sit idle. Insurance has to be in effect, and all safety paperwork has to be in order......even if the thing hasn't left your yard in years. It's crazy.


----------



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Sorry about rambling on. It's a rain day, and the "shop" is closed until it's clear.


----------



## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I have done a few major trailer jobs like that. And doing it on the dirt would have to suck. Although those jobs just make a mess in the shop, the amount of work it takes i would much rather have a good cement floor and creeper hats off to you.

My last job we rebuilt 4 or 5 old moving van trailers into full blown moble shop/parts department. The amount of work it took was crazy. Easily had 4-500man hours per trailer. But they came out nice, real nice. We bought 6 53 foot kentucky van trailers with taillifts for 20k. So easy to say they were in very bad shape.


----------



## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

I saw a weld on a side brace I would have ground out and rewelded.. did you do it with 6013 or 7018 or both?
You never want to end a weld on a corner, you stop and inch or so before and then start the bead at the corner and over run your last stop by an inch. Especially on frames! I've done many even done them with a mirror to see what I was doing, that takes some practice. 
Frames welded here are x-rayed after welding to be sure they have no porosity,inclusions and cracks! Then get stamped and sent on there way.


----------



## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I likely would try to repair it if the rest of the vehicle is in decent shape.

Sadly, I feel problems like this are only going to be more common in the future. Most manufacturers are going away from an open channel typed frames made of thicker metal to a fully boxed frames instead and even advertise it in their commercials. With the boxed frame the manufacturers can use thinner metal due to the structural advantages of box shape and there are merits to it like cost down, weight down and better fuel economy.

However, the downside is fully boxed metal has a tendency to rust from the inside out where an open channel frame does not do this. Gonna get harder for tightwads like me to keep my trucks for multiple decades like I have done in the past if I ever splurge and buy me another newer truck.

I bought a new dump trailer a few years ago and purposely shied away from the ones with box tubing frames and chose one with a C channel frame of thicker metal instead. My trailer sits outside and I simply feel the open frame will hold up better long term.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rankrank1 said:


> However, the downside is fully boxed metal has a tendency to rust from the inside out where an open channel frame does not do this. Gonna get harder for tightwads like me to keep my trucks for multiple decades like I have done in the past if I ever splurge and buy me another newer truck.


Yep, my 99 cummins is living on borrowed time due to the boxed sections of the frame


----------

