# what time of year does Coastal start loosing its feed value



## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

I know as temps drop and days are shorter there will be a point when the grass starts putting its energy into the roots.
I would like to get my last cutting before this happens. Really need the hay or would just let it stand.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Here, near Temple Texas I like to cut bermudagrass before 8 October as after then most of the growth carbohydrates is going to the roots. 
Next opportunity is after the frost. Frost hurts the color but not the feed value.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks Hay Wilson, I knew you or Dr Haby would be able to shed some light on the topic. I irrigated enough to get a last cutting, so just trying to get the timing right to get all the hay I can. Normally like some regrowth, but this year I'll take what I get.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I said the frost does not effect feed quality, and to a point this is true. Except for Tifton 85, with each rain, all the bermudagrass types frost killed bermudagrass will loose feed value. 
In another drought year I cut bermudagrass hay in January and it still fed well and tested well, but it had hardly had any rain after the December Freeze. 
The exception is Tifton and it does well as a standing hay or stockpiled forage. NRCS tested forages in February and old dead T-85 still tested in the 12% CP range, while by then the Coastal was close to useless. That was for that year with that winter's weather.

To be fully truthful, compared to Vhaby I am truely ignorant. He is a wealty of good information.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

I need to do a little more research on the Tifton 85. a year or so ago I looked into it, and there was a downside that kept me from going that way. Just can't remember what it was. Does it require more Nitrogen than Coastal? 
I have been working on overall fertility last two years, trying to get where I use less hay and can make use of standing forages in the fall and pring grasses.
Unfortunately this year the only thing standing will be goatweeds and persimmon sprouts.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

It was fortunate that you saw a down side to Tifton 85 a year or so ago. Your insight kept you from sprigging this summer that undoubtly would have been a failure in this severe drought. In your renewed research, you should find that Tifton 85 bermudagrass and Coastal bermudagrass both use similar rates of nitrogen and both bermudagrasses use about the same amount of potassium as nitrogen- meaning, that if your soils are low in potassium, your N - K20 rates should be applied in equal amounts. Any phosphorus needed should be applied all at once in the first spring fertilizer application unless the soil test phosphorus level is in the medium to high range. If soil test phosphorus is in the medium to high range, apply the needed nitrogen, phosphate, and potash in a 5-1-5 ratio. Amounts per acre applied to established Tifton 85 in a good rainfall year might be 90-18-90 applied for each regrowth for hay. Tifton 85 produces lower yields in June cuttings compared to Coastal bermudagrass, but Tifton 85 really increases in yield in the July, August, September, and in October if harvested this late. Tifton 85 out yields Coastal, and since it is more highly digestible, it produces higher cattle weight gains. Also, Tifton 85 is much more drought tolerant than Coastal bermudagrass. This was quite evident this summer in the current drought.

Where you are located may not be anywhere close to broiler producers. If you are, broiler litter is a great source of plant nutrients for bermudagrass production, as you know. Also, if sprigging Tifton 85, don't forget to first adjust soil pH to 6.5 or 7.0 if the soil is acid.

Regarding your first question about bermudagrass quality, we know that rapid growth of bermudagrass in spring occurs when the nighttime air temperatures remain above 60 degrees Fahrenheit and the daytime temperatures remain above about 72 degrees. If this can be projected to declining bermudagrass growth in fall, and to depletion of carbohydrates, mid October might be a good last cutting date for bermudagrass when hay is badly needed. Low temperature here this morning was 58 degrees F, so expect bermudagrass to begin slowing in growth. Warm days will keep it growing slowly until first frost.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

A thought or two:

Because T-85 Out yields coastal and other bermudagrasses by at least 15% we should increase out fertilizer applied by at least 15% also.

The rule of thumb is 50 lbs of Nitrogen per ton of hay. Possibly because researchers harvest differently they realize a 15% CP which uses the 50 lbs of N. 
Square bale harvesting usually has 12% CP which is 40 lbs of N. 
Round bale harvesting usually has 10% CP which is 32 lbs of N.
The difference is from leaf shatter resulting in reduced yield as well as reduced feed value.

Loosely speaking we loose 20% to 40% of our potential bermudagrass yield in the harvesting process.

Possibly the advantage for T-85 is within the thick stems. There is more space inside those thick stems to store digestible carbohydrates and proteins.

To my thinking, standing T-85 in March, after a winter of cold and rain, will still have a good nutritional value while the other bermudagrasses have weathered to almost zero nutritional value.

A humorous thought? 
Because the horse owning general public has been conditioned to desire fine stemmed grass hay, they may be actually buying the lower quality forage, by not selecting the T-85 bermudagrass.

There are enough potential studies enclosed here for a dozen Graduate Papers. Though there is not a dimes worth of government grant money to support one thesis.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> A humorous thought?
> Because the horse owning general public has been conditioned to desire fine stemmed grass hay, they may be actually buying the lower quality forage, by not selecting the T-85 bermudagrass.


Very true, but most of them think they are buying "coastal" when in reality they don't have the slightest idea what is in the bale. So I guess there is an almost equal chance that they might stumble on some decent hay once in a while as well. Even a blind pig can find an acorn.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

This is exactly the education that I am needing!!! 
I knew the cooler night time temps would slow bermuda down, also thought shorter days would impact it too.

So Tifton 85 will provide more feed value in the summer hot dry months, also when grazed ?? I am trying to build a pasture to put calves on, after weaning, where they get what they need with little or no supplements. I will be irrigating and working on fertility to support that.
If it takes an almost neutral soil, may take a couple of years to get ready, limed last month. But so acidic will take another dose, just need the rain.
I am looking for a supplier of chicken litter, if you know of anyone servicing east Texas.


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## scrapiron (Mar 10, 2010)

mtarrant; Who there cowboy not so fast on tift-85. We, our family, have been growing it since it was released to the public. It is THE BEST hyb bermuda grass, no question,no if's, it is the best!!!! Talk to others who have sprigged t-85, listen to the horror stories they will tell you, and YES they are true. Tift-85 is the hardest bermuda grass that there is to get established!!! You have received great advice on it. When you sprigg it,green tops or roots, it will need to be babied,carressed, cuddled, sprayed, fertlized and mabe even kissed. It will be a big pain in your a## to get it established, and into production,it requires lots of mgmt,think time, fert,weed killer,ect. BUT when it is in full production it is so well worth the time/money you put into it. There is NOTHING that can be grown in the deeeeeep south that can equal it, some other grasses come close but don't equal tift-85. It is the highest nutritional,highest yeilding, best grass for the bermuda grass producer that will manage it properly, if you do you will be rewarded for many years with the BEST forage, hay or pasture, for your cows & calves. If you don't manage it it will be a big dissappoitment and money thrown away.

scrapiron


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

I'm sorry these tables created in MSWord that look so good when I post them, and when I edit them, get all scrambled when I submit the post. I hope that you can unscramble these data. Perhaps the webmaster can do it for us. The yield and pH data in individual columns are indicated by a number followed by a letter, so after each letter another column of data begins. If you have MSWord on your computer, perhaps you can copy these tables and paste them into a Word document to straighten them out????

Table 3 shows yield data from 2004 research trials evaluating Tifton 85 bermudagrass response to soil pH range and broiler litter rates in rainfed conditions. Please note that the yield response to pH ranges are averaged over all broiler litter rates, and yield response to broiler litter rates are averaged over all pH ranges. Hope this helps understand the increased yields in July, August, etc. compared to harvest taken in June. And like Hay Wilson stated, remember that these plots were harvested using a plot harvester that cut the grass and weighed it green, and then a moisture sample was taken do determine the dry matter in each plot harvested. So, there was no leaf loss, and the reported dry matter yields need to be increased by a factor of 1.12 to determine hay yield. These yields were taken in a reasonable rainfall year compared to the average, not during a drought year. The yield response to pH was linear, meaning that the yield increase never broke over the top out to at least pH 7.0- yield response to pH continued to increase with increasing pH.

Table 3. Tifton 85 bermudagrass yield response to pH range (limestone) and poultry litter (PL). 2004.
Dry matter yield by harvest date and total†
pH
Range	June 7	June 25	July 16	Aug. 30	Oct. 12	Total
---------------------------------------------lb/acre-------------------------------------------------
Low 779 b 924	2,324 c	3,443 c	2,325 b 9,795 c
Medium 948 a 999	2,823 b	3,974 b	2,519 b	11,263 b
High	1,021 a	1,007	3,145 a	4,332 a	2,872 a	12,376 a
PL, t/ac	
0 653 b 838 b	2,654	3,470 c	2,142 c 9,756 c
2 885 a 923 b	2,807	3,851 b	2,446 b	10,913 b
4	1,013 a	1,057 a	2,702	3,968 b	2,706 b	11,446 b
8	1,113 a	1,089 a	2,892	4,377 a	2,993 a	12,464 a

R2 0.71 0.60 0.72	0.82 0.81	0.85
c.v.	21.2	13.5	12.4	8.4	10.4	7.6
†Values in a column/group followed by a similar letter are not significantly different statistically (α = 0.05).

The pH ranges are represented by data shown in Table 1 below. For simplicity, look only at the 0-6 inch depth pH. Also note that as the pH in the 0-6 inch depth increased, so did the pH in the 6-12 and 12-18 inch depths in these long-term limestone treated plots.

Table 1. Darco soil pHw (1: 2 soil: water) by depth due to limestone treatment and poultry litter
(PL) rates. 2004.
pH range	pHw by soil depth†
0-2 in	2-6 in	0-6 in	6-12 in	12-18 in
Low	5.41 c	4.52 c	5.02 b	4.60 b	4.72 c
Medium	6.54 b	4.92 b	5.67 a	5.09 a	5.30 b
High	6.95 a	5.44 a	6.08 a	5.37 a	5.80 a
PL, t/ac	
0	6.38	5.01	5.74	4.92 ab	5.43
2	6.34	4.91	5.50	4.80 b	5.06
4	6.28	4.74	5.48	5.10 ab	5.31
8	6.20	5.17	5.63	5.25 a	5.24

R2	0.78	0.75 0.51	0.68 0.72
c.v.	7.2	7.1	12.4	6.9	7.5
†Values in a column/group followed by a similar letter are not significantly different statistically (α = 0.05)


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

scrapiron,
I don't spray a lot of herbicide on my grazing pastures, have to stay on top of coastal hayfields, mainly keeping bahai in check.
So are you saying that tift-85 is not real competitive? My coastal keeps everything else pretty well choked out as long as I cut it fairly regular.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

We barely had any rain here this year... Probly maybe 3 inches all summer. We have about 50 acres of tifton and it had grown up pretty well considering the drought. Decision time came to either cut and make maybe about a roll to acre or turn the cows in on it. That patch has supported anywhere from 30-50 cows for atleast 2 months. No fertilizer this year either due to lack of rain. I have been impressed with it this year. Was about to have to pull cows off until we got an inch about 2 wks ago.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

*No fertilizer this year either due to lack of rain. *

Allow me to suggest in another year you consider fertilizing in a drought. Both nitrogen and potash!
With lots of fertilizer I have heard of one University getting a ton of DM on roughly 2 inches of rain. At TAMU they realized a ton on 3" of rain.

Increase the yield for the moisture in hay and then reduce the yield for harvesting losses, figure a ton of hay on 2.5" to 3.75" of rain optimum yield.

They are talking about 700 to 1000 lbs/A of nitrogen, plus sulfur, potash, & phosphate

I have never fertilized to that extent. No guts no glory!

Twenty years ago near Canton TX a grazing dairy that I knew applied fertilizer every 3 weeks rain or not. The one time they didn't they lost production. Applied fertilizer and production recovered, still with no rain.

I do not know where you are located. HERE any nitrogen fertilizer applied is seldom lost. Near Canton after 3 weeks the nitrogen starts running out, regardless of the amount applied. That was the reason for the dairy to fertilize EVERY three weeks.


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## scrapiron (Mar 10, 2010)

mtarrant said:


> scrapiron,
> I don't spray a lot of herbicide on my grazing pastures, have to stay on top of coastal hayfields, mainly keeping bahai in check.
> So are you saying that tift-85 is not real competitive? My coastal keeps everything else pretty well choked out as long as I cut it fairly regular.


No Sir; Tift-85 is very competitive. It is just very hard to get the stand established and into production. We green top sprigg all of our hyb bermuda, roots just don't work good here, if we can get 25% of our 85 to take root & grow we feel that we have done real good if we have ideal conditions. We normally put out> 2000lb of tops per acre,it is so thick you can't put your hand on the ground without touching a sprigg, if we get one plant every 2sq ft to grow we have a good stand. Yes over about a years time it will fill in and it will be in production. Other hyb bermuda we plant at 1000lb per acre and usually get a cutting off of it in 3 months.

Tift-85 requires very close & good management. It also it seems like it has an unlimited ability to take up fertlizer, if we have good rains, my best estimation is that it will use 1.50-2.00lbs of nitrogen & almost that much potash per day per acre everyday, mabe more. With this amount of fertlizer in the ground any weed that germinates is also going to grow VERY fast,you need to stay ahead of them. We attempt to cut our tift-85 every 30 days, even if it is not cut on time it is still fertlized,ya got to feed it if you want it to grow. If you have any bahia in it, well lets just say it is going to grow like a weed.

When you get your tift-85 established, YOU WILL LIKE IT, just takes time & good management to get there.

scrapiron


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## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

We are in the East Texas area and grow Tifton 85 along with Coastal and Tifton 44 for hay and sprigs. The management practices are basically the same for getting anyone of the grasses established you need a properly prepared field, weed control, fertility, timely application of pre emerge, rain, and good sprigs. The only grass that 85 does not compete well with is common bermuda since it grows so thick it will choke out the 85 and whatever you spray that kills one kills the other.

To answer your original question while the feed value goes down the later in the year it gets we have cut hay all the way into December before as long as the weather co operates enough to get it to dry down. This did not damage the stand any and the hay still tested above 10% CP.

As far as finding chicken litter Pat Pilgrim used to spread a bunch but, rumor has it that he is getting out of that business. Depending on where you are located will make a difference on who to contact to get litter and have it spread. While several years ago it use to be the cheaper route to use the price of the litter along with application has now caught up with the price of commercial fertilizer.

Also if you have any more questions or anything feel free to contact me.


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## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> *No fertilizer this year either due to lack of rain. *
> 
> Twenty years ago near Canton TX a grazing dairy that I knew applied fertilizer every 3 weeks rain or not. The one time they didn't they lost production. Applied fertilizer and production recovered, still with no rain.
> 
> I do not know where you are located. HERE any nitrogen fertilizer applied is seldom lost. Near Canton after 3 weeks the nitrogen starts running out, regardless of the amount applied. That was the reason for the dairy to fertilize EVERY three weeks.


I have to wonder if the dairy that fertilized like that is still in business and if they are whether or not their management practices are still the same. HERE in the sand the nitrogen does not hang around very long.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

hay wilson, I am south of Canton so pretty close to same climate.
So if the nitrogen lays there without rain, I will still get my money's worth?
I was pretty sure P and K would still be there.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

The longer version.

This family was active in the Texas Farm Bureau and Papa was on their Texas Forage Advisory Committee. It was at one of those committee meeting that I heard this information.

This farm family near Canton had entered the ranks of the Grazing Dairies. 
His initial system was to fertilize and shred any grass that had gotten ahead of the cows. 
His wife did the shredding and was active in the farm activities. Wrote the checks.

For some reason or another he had told the fertilizer dealer to spread fertilizer every three weeks. 
This worked well for a number of years. 
Then after one of the milking Papa walked into the house and mentioned the milk production was going down. Sweet wife made the statement she knew why. 
So he asked smart wife why. 
Answer was the fertilizer man had not been around for a month. 
Papa called the Dealer to enquire why!!!!! 
The Dealer said it had not rained in a month and it would not do any good. (naturally dummy)
Papa said he wanted the Dealer to spread fertilizer not be a weather observer. 
*That day the fertilizer was spread.*
Three days later Papa returning to the house announced the milk production was going back up.
To us he mentioned that it still had not rained as the milk came closer to filling the tank!

Years later I was able to visit the dairy, after the son had taken over the farm. 
I was much impressed. 
He put up the best looking bermudagrass small bale hay I have ever seen. The son had sold the cows and was making more money selling hay to the horse owners in Dallas. 
He had a then new Inline small bale baler and stacked the hay in the barn using a NH self propelled bale wagon.

Every soil and climate has it's own advantages as well as some disadvantages.

My sermon:
Fertilizer can make our crops more efficient in their use of the available moisture. Unfortunately we can not make something out of nothing but we can work for a ton of forage on 2 to 6 inches of rainfall. THIS really is something that works during a drought not in too apparent during a wet year. 
Something I have also learned the hard way is we need to use a good bit of potash in a dry year also. The theory is potash makes the plant even more moisture efficient, as well as improve the nitrogen use efficiency.

I am not sure what you consider convenient, but back in Smith County they have the East Texas Farm & Ranch Club. Contact Jim Guthrie at [email protected] if interested.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks hay wilson, 
most mornings during a "normal" year, we have a dew almost equal to a small shower, this might help explain some of it.
But this year, no dew, no nothing!
It is a pleasure to learn from guys like you and Dr Haby that have spent a lifetime learning things that are not found in textbooks!!!
You are much appreciated.


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## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

Ok without names but putting the pieces together I think I have it figured out who you are talking about and I don't know if following there management practices would be the best idea. Also not many actual GRAZING dairies around here or back then. There are some dairies based on grass here but the cows are either given lots of grain in the barn or down the feeding lane. Several around have tried to just graze but, just can not get the milk around HERE.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I do not claim to be very knowledgeable about grazing dairies. It may be a bit humorous for a hay farmer to be promoting grazing.

I belong to the American Forage & Grassland Council where I met a Dave Forgey a Grazing Dairyman from Indiana. You can check out his web site.

Forgey's River-View Farms, Inc > Home

A very interesting individual who insists changing from confinement to grazing saved his farm from the Bank.
At the time his calculations were a real feed cost at $2/Cwgt of milk. Granted his milk production per cow was not anywhere close to bragging rights, but with that difference in feed cost his net income was turned around and he has making a good profit. 
A few years later and at another AFGC Conference we were all talking and he mentioned he had a 15% cull rate. A cull rate that was considered exceptionally good. Then he said half of those were volunteer culls. What he was talking about is producing cows being sold to other dairies, to make room for some replacements he coming along.

Near Canton is a truly impressive grazing dairy. When I saw it they had a New Zealand type parlor with three sided open and the North side had the milk tank and milk room. I heard that farmer now is milking 1,000 cows all on grass. Uses three parlors, and moves the milk crew from parlor to parlor.

I have visited a few dairies that were more grazing than those I was used to from the 40's and 50's. The reason we did not go into dairying was we did not then and do not now have enough land that is not in a flood plain to expect to be able to graze on our schedule. What we did figure out was we were making more net income from our alfalfa ground than we were from cotton, and we went to all hay.

The best deal for milk is a goat dairy. Last time I asked they were getting $35/hundred weight from a cheese plant. Right now my favorite hay customers are recreational goat dairy. They have a use for a 20-30-40 alfalfa.

I will agree no grazing dairy will be milking 75,000 lb cows. They will not be milking 30,000 cows a day. 
Nor will they have the potential of supporting a $1,000,000 life style. 
For someone who likes cows and likes milking and likes forages it is an excellent option.

The dairies are about a thing of the past for the Austin Milk Shed. There are a few left around Waco, but they may be moving to the High Plains where the communities appreciate them and there is room. 
In fact my style of hay production appears to be on the way out. There is no way I can compete on quality with those around Vernon. The weather here is really too unpredictable. If I was younger I would add an Out in the Country Feed Store.

Have a Grand & Glorious Season.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Allow me to suggest in another year you consider fertilizing in a drought. Both nitrogen and potash!
> With lots of fertilizer I have heard of one University getting a ton of DM on roughly 2 inches of rain. At TAMU they realized a ton on 3" of rain.


Well, I believe you about the potash....I loaded my T-85 field last winter and it's done better than any of the others. I'm not sure that's because of the potash or because it's T-85. Jdhayboy isn't bashful about putting down fertilizer, so it might be some of both. I do question putting down nitrogen every three weeks. My local dealer and the co-op only have urea....are you saying that it won't gas off or were they using AN.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I do question putting down nitrogen every three weeks. 
It is also a foreign idea to me here in the Blacklands, I only know what others have said.

My local dealer and the co-op only have urea....
Here the dry fertilizer dealer only wants to sell Urea with sulfur. At least that is what American Plant Foods is telling the local hired help.

are you saying that it won't gas off or were they using AN. 
On that I have the word of an used to be Extension Specialest who says if the graund is dry there is not a any difference for top dressing. 
Here I use *anhydrous* in December January or February and it will persist for years and years if not used by the bermudagrass. This a heavy clay soil with a 50 CEC and an 8 pH.

For years I would spread potash & K Mag in the winter, but have change gears. 
The Soils Authorities say do not apply potash during the harvest season to prevent Luxury Uptake. Well now I apply potash + a touch of K Mag or UAN for sulfur) after the first cutting. 
I want to go into our summer drought with luxury uptake for a more effecient water use. 
I do not know if this is helping my yield but it is not hurting it. 
I want the second cuttiong's hay analysis to show over 2.50% K but will be happy with over 2.00% K.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Anhydrous is out of the question...I don't have the equipment. I'm also not sure how long the sandy loam would hold it. How about knifing in liquid? I can replace the shanks on a pasture renovator and pull a tank behind it.

My ground has certainly been dry so I assume the urease can't react the urea....but a little dew will sure start the reaction. The "used to be Extension Specialest" also doesn't like NutriSphere which is all my dealer carries. Having seen a couple of recent university tests on it, I think I know why. But, I still don't understand how the plants are getting the dry nitrogen without rain.......


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Forages can get granular nitrogen without rain if there is sufficient dew to drip water from the plants and dissolve the nitrogen and move it into the soil. The danger with this happening is that, with urea, the hydrolysis reaction (taking on water) in the presence of urease enzyme converts the urea, that has two NH2 groups in it, into NH4OH (ammonium hydroxide) and this initial reaction elevates the pH and NH3 (ammonia) goes off as a gas (volatilizes). As dry as it's been in Texas, there likely is no dew in most places so it is safe to apply urea and expect it to lay on the soil surface and not lose nitrogen by volatilization. In such a situation, the grass cannot get the nitrogen. I have seen the benefits of applying 60 lb of N/acre as urea to a dry Blackland type soil (Vertisol- a high shrink/swell soil) west of San Antonio and nothing happened to the increase grass growth until after a rain finally occurred about two months later- the producer made more hay off that field than ever before. Urea is soluble in water and with rain, moves into the soil as urea.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

That gem of wisdom is now in my note book.


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## mtarrant (Aug 10, 2009)

Mine too, 
guess I'm a Freshman at Haytalk University.


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## greer63sykes (Oct 6, 2011)

This is really a nice discussion. I know as temps drop and days are shorter there will be a point when the grass starts putting its energy into the roots.
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