# ******* bale bandit



## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I came up with an idea. You guys will probably get a good laugh but here it is. I cant afford a bale bandit or baron and I cant find enough help to do it another way efficiently so im going to build a ******* bale bandit. The way it is going to work is build a trailer behind the baler wide enough for 2 bundles and long enough for a bundle plus room to work then get a bander like they use in lumber yards that clamp it. So grandpa has volunteered to band them so I would put a pair of bands down then stack 21 bales and have grandpa band them while I make the next bundle then have a hydraulic cylinder to push them off the back. I stack he bands and sets out the next bands while i just keep stacking. I think it would be effective and save alot of time and work. It probably sounds dumb but I have steel sitting around to build it and time to do it. If it doesnt work send it to the scrap yard and go back to the way I do it now. Atleast I can say I owned a bale bandit lol.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Couldn't you just have grandpa following you with a nh stacker?


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I've rebanded bundles by hand . If the goal is to pick and stack with a loader I think you'll need some way to compress the package before you tension the straps or they will be too loose.Maybe if you alternate your stack pattern they would be a little better. Maybe 9 or 12 packs? Try a couple and see if they handle/stack as you expect before you get too far along this project. Also the manipulation of straps, seals, tensioner, crimper, and shears is tedious and time consuming. I doubt it would be easier on a bouncing wagon. If you have steel and time how about build a drag accumulator or bale basket?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

So you are going to do this as the trailer is bouncing across the field?


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## krone.1 (Jul 28, 2013)

Are you sure your PawPaw knows what he is getting into? I think when you said "we are going to band some hay bales" he thought you said "we are going to command some females".


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/grd/4184050279.html

Here is one I ran across the other day, thought about purchasing it just for the heck of it.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

8350HiTech said:


> Couldn't you just have grandpa following you with a nh stacker?


They cost to much and they are rare in this area


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> I've rebanded bundles by hand . If the goal is to pick and stack with a loader I think you'll need some way to compress the package before you tension the straps or they will be too loose.Maybe if you alternate your stack pattern they would be a little better. Maybe 9 or 12 packs? Try a couple and see if they handle/stack as you expect before you get too far along this project. Also the manipulation of straps, seals, tensioner, crimper, and shears is tedious and time consuming. I doubt it would be easier on a bouncing wagon. If you have steel and time how about build a drag accumulator or bale basket?


The strap thing im going to use pulls like a ratchet strap. Im going to try it with some bales and make sure it works before I build anything


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> So you are going to do this as the trailer is bouncing across the field?


The fields are pretty smooth I could always take the air ride of the old trailer I got sitting in the back. I just cant pencil in 80k for a rig that I can try to build. If it works I dont care if it looks ghetto lol


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## S10491112 (Apr 11, 2013)

I looked at building a banding machine that I could put in the corner of the barn. To make blocks of bale to load trailers faster. Your not going to gain any more bales but you could save some time loading. You are going to have to compess the stack of bales before you band them or they will not hold together when you pick them up with a fork lift and don't use metal banding it cut the string and horse peple don't like meal around hay can't says that I blame them. A NH bale wagon would get the bales in the barn.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Problem is I cant drive on most of the floor of the barn but my buddy has a telehandler that he never uses.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

How many bales do you do a year?

I have seen the comments about horse people not liking steel banding, but they soon accept it when my bandit gives bales of at least 37 inches and packed tight (to stop straps cutting strings) and a baron has a max 34 inch bale and any operators pack a little looser because no bands to cut strings. It is a marketing opportunity because most do not like parting with money they don't have to. Come to think of it I don't either,

Second hand 100 series would be way less than $80K in your market.

I just did over 10,000 bales with my 100 series and never missed a pack. It is about 7 or 8 seasons old, I have done 5 seasons with it and bought it secondhand before the 2009 season.

The drawback I see to the ******* bundler is that someone has to stack and align the bales and pass the straps. Nearly 20 years ago I had a brick business buying and selling new and sometimes secondhand bricks. I used a ratchet style strapper and hand crimper on metal seals it was hard work cranking the machine to strap the packs of bricks.

With my experience and having the tools, I tried repairing bundles out of the bandit if a strap failed, never succeeded with one.

I paid $60K for my machine, and the year before I bought it it cost me $2.00 per bale get it from paddock to shed and I supplied the truck, loader and elevator and all fuel, this year labour costs are around $3.00 per bale to load cart and stack.

The return on investment this year even for my small operation looks pretty good.

If I could not have a bundler I would not now do hay.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I do about 6000 right now. I have room for 18000. The 6000 make my barn still look empty. Its the old school barn that has cement walls on the bottom for the horses and then wood floor on upper part. But its huge. Right now we drop the bales in stooks (6 bales in a triangle). Then pick them up with a fork and pack on wagon. But it requirea handling 3 times mostly with a 2 man crew. We basically handle 20000 a year but only do 6000 im sick of it being so inefficient. I wonder if plastic bands would work. I know they will cinch up lumber pretty tight. I dont know if they would with hay and straw. I should get one and try a stack in the barn. I have very limited funds so a used one isnt even an option right now. Its a bad situation I cant buy a machine until I make enough hay to sell to pay for one and I cant make enough hay to sell to buy one until I have one lol. We had terrible weather this year though. We had a one week window and did 4000 hay so maybe next year if weather cooperates we can aim for 10000.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

When I bought mine everyone asked how I could justify it?.

I will not say here what my actual response was to some.

At the time I could not justify it on outright bean counter terms, I could in terms of safety and production time.

One busted back and everyone would ask why did I not get something to save my back?

Your labour bill for one year would be a good downpayment. Your winters give you lots of time to make the hay spear to handle the bundles. I have posted pictures elsewhere on this forum of my spears that are a treat to use.

With you driving a baler and a bandit behind, your Pa carting you could do your 10,000 in a week at only 1500 per day if you could bale that many. By my reckoning you are baling about that number because I think from your description there would have been 3 days carting and storing.

If you made another 4000 bales at $5.00 per bale, that is a lot of the purchase price in one year.

One for sale in Moreton Illinois for US$25K a 2001 model Serial no 109, mine is from memory in the mid to high 300's serial no.

My machine has its own pto driven hydraulic power pack so I do not need to match tractors to suit the bandit. It also has a pickup so it is not tied to the baler, inefficient in some ways but extends the bundling time beyond the baling window.

You may want to do some sums especially if you have time to do custom work.

Bundle hay for others at $1.00 per bale and if you could do 2000 per day thats not bad income if you could line up a string of clients.

I know the weather can be really fickle, I lost the lot 2 seasons ago. put a match to about 10,000 bales worth of hay to clear the paddock for the next years crop.

You need to assess the machine very carefully if you get tempted as was I, because they are very complex.

There are some things that are certain in life, oft quoted as death and taxes but you can add, haymaking gets harder to do as we get older unless you find a way to be more efficient.

There is one haymaker about 25 miles from me that has made a press that he bundles the hay before delivery, but I do not see the point and you have identified the critical bottleneck, it is getting the small squares from the back of the baler into the barn out of the weather.

Lots to think of over the next few months.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya its definitely lots to think about. Used machines around here are hard to find. It would be atleast a 12 hour one way trip and then you have to worry about how much work it has seen and what needs fixing. If you buy one that looks good but is mechanically junk its better off with out it. Thats why I bought a new baler. Maybe I should try to find a custom operator around to do it for me for a year or 2 that might be hard to find to.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

There is one thing that works against having custom work on my place - TIMING Hay is ready and they are not.. Looking through several machinery sites I was amazed at how few bales throughput many machines claimed, totals sub 50K. My machine did in excess of 40K a year before I bought it and has done 8.5 to 10 K per year for 4 of the 5 since. There are usually machines cheaper than those on big websites, so worth looking and waiting.

Many contributors to this forum sing the praises of bale wagons and accumulators, they may be an entry path to mechanised handling.

I too agonised long and hard before buying and it hasn't been all smooth sailing but as an added degree of difficulty I am in a time zone about 12 hours ahead of Eastern USA/Canada.

Oh I had a fabulous time when visited eastern Canada and USA, a real eyeopener for me for haying.

Never have multiple cuts here, no throwers or baskets either just for starters.

Got as far East as the coast and down to New York State and as far West as Duluth and THunder Bay as far North as Geraldton. Fabulous scenery and peoples.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I wouldnt give 5 cents for thunder bay. Its such a garbage drive through there lol. Im going to search around. The biggest problem is people here either dont square bale or do it with wagons or thrower. You say kuhn accumulator and people look at you like you are talkin paki language. If weather is good this year I will try to hire some Mennonite kids. They work hard for cheap. If I get enough in I can buy a bandit or accumulator.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Sounds like you are formulating a plan to achieve your aim of improved efficiency. Thats the way to get ahead, formulate the plan progress through the stages but at every step review and modify if necessary and keep working toward your aim. A short while ago you could identify the issue as lack of efficiency but no pathway to improve. good luck with the execution of the plan


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## hay king (Feb 6, 2011)

If you made your deck with three channel irons with the gap up you would be able to feed the banding through and not need to cut and prelay your banding down. Once the pile is done feed the strapping threw and band it. length wise might be tougher but this might work there as well, Plus they do make plastic strapping used it once in a mill for chop blocks but its not as strong as steel. I'll stew on this a little more and see what I can think of that might help.


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## expensive hobby (Feb 16, 2010)

Ontario hay man were are you located in ont? I have a baron and if you are not to far maybe we could work something out

are you close to simcoe?


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## S10491112 (Apr 11, 2013)

I have stacked outside for years. Just set blocks off the bale wagon and tarp done! Till you load trailer to ship.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

expensive hobby said:


> Ontario hay man were are you located in ont? I have a baron and if you are not to far maybe we could work something out
> are you close to simcoe?


Im in shelburne. About 160 km from you according to google unfortunately.


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## expensive hobby (Feb 16, 2010)

I guess you know jason nickleson he trucks mine to fla,a j trucking


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Coondle, sorry to hijack this thread, tell us about the procedure to put the match to 10 k bale of hay. I assume it is still on the swath. How do you control burn? Authorities approve this? Surrounding crops or forest? Also in regards to opperation of pickup on bqndit, does your climate produce enough dew to stop operaton after sunset? I believe it might here.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

expensive hobby said:


> I guess you know jason nickleson he trucks mine to fla,a j trucking


No I dont where is he? How much do you get for it? I got 2000 to sell right now. I was also considering rebaling rounds. It would work fine in grass but I dont know about alfalfa. Mine is half alfalfa.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> Coondle, sorry to hijack this thread, tell us about the procedure to put the match to 10 k bale of hay. I assume it is still on the swath. How do you control burn? Authorities approve this? Surrounding crops or forest? Also in regards to opperation of pickup on bqndit, does your climate produce enough dew to stop operaton after sunset? I believe it might here.


Lol I never thought of that til you said it. Thats alot of hay to burn. My neighbor had to burn 300 acres of flax straw when my baler wouldnt bale it.


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## expensive hobby (Feb 16, 2010)

he just brings it there for me, their yard is in dundalk but lives in your town


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Oh ok how do you get into that market. Do you sell it direct or have a dealer buy it. I heard its worth alot more in fla then here.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

There was a school project called the Q'Ber that built what you are talking about. They used a battery powered plastic strapping tool and a hydraulic compression table.

I've been tossing the idea around too for a while but you can't keep up to a baler without 2 people riding a rig. The tying and eject cycle needs to hold 2-5 bales in queue then the guy needs to work like a dog to clear the queue and start tying.

My plans included automating the stacking so you are just manually tying, and to build a queue to store the hay in the tie cycle.

We have a big old dairy barn too and are doing close to 10,000 bales a year now. That barn is a pain to get hay in and out. The floor is only strong enough for a tractor on the old drive-through aisle. I've seen folks in europe that mount a little rail hung hiab jib crane think with an operators seat in these old barns. They have grapples and can run along the rails with a grab from the wagon. See videos of them stacking round bales and loose hay too.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

SVF Hay here goes, a longer than your question backgrounding and explanation, I bet you are sorry you asked 

The hay was still in the windrows because it rained every few days never allowing the hay to dry. Mould went mad and the hay was black. We do not have any experience with acid or other hay preservatives to bale wet hay. Acid etc would probably not be acceptable in this market anyway.

Some operators waited for the hay to dry and turned it with roller bar rakes to bash some/most mould off. I was not prepared to risk marketing such compromised hay. It would be just my luck to have someone's $200K champion racehorse die. :wub:

When the hay was a write off, I turned my sheep in on to it. But not enough sheep for that quantity and they did not like it and actually ate very little of it. The windrows were virtually undisturbed come the following autumn.

We have very dry summers (usually) and the grass is very dry so no burning allowed at all.

Bushfires (our term for any non-building, out of control fire) are a regular occurrence here, with the local bushfire brigade (we have 5 in our district with 10 appliances) responding to up to 80 or so callouts each year. Since 2007 we have had 3 major fires each burning 7,000 acres or more One with 1 fatality another with 38 homes destroyed, and the third mostly in conservation park, burning about 17,000 acres with 13,000 of that in 4 to 5 hours, creating its own thunderstorm including rain on a clear dry day of about 90 degrees F.

Average rainfall profile all years since 1877 is as follows shown as mm ( inches)

Jan 10.9 (0.429) Feb 12.6 (0.496) Mar 19.6 (0.772) Apr 25.7 (1.011) May 66.6 (2.622)

Jun 99.6 (3.921) Jul 101.7 (4.003) Aug 80.0 ( 3.149) Sep 48.0 (1.889) Oct 31.4 (1.236)

Nov 15.1 (0.594) Dec 9.4 (0.370) TOTAL AVE ALL YEARS 520.6 (20.496)

Variability can be huge for example in more recent years in July 2012 there was only 13.8mm (0.543) and we actually had no rain at all for over 5 weeks in july and early August.

In January 2006 we had 119.5 (4.704) , without digging out the actual records in Feb 1955 we had in excess of 305mm (12 inches) and in March 2011 I had over 100mm (4inches) in 15 to 20 minutes.

Our fire seasons fall into the following categories:

Winter, by the calendar is 1 June to 30 August and should have the majority of rain with peak rainfall in July. Seasonal variability can be huge with the break of the season (opening growing season rains) to start mid to late April, but some seasons have had almost no rain until the start of the second week in July.

Winter is unrestricted for outdoor fires.

Spring 1 September to 30 November. From the rainfall profile the season dries rapidly from mid- October on and we move from unrestricted in about mid October to Restricted where a permit is required from a Fire Control Officer and conditions attach of equipment, manpower and notice to various authorities and the State's Emergency Communications Centre to register your burn on the day. On 1 November the fire season becomes Prohibited ie no outside fires for anything other than cooking. The changeover can vary by official notice depending on seasonal conditions.

SUmmer 1 December to 28/9 Feb prohibited.

Autumn 1 march to 30 May we move from Prohibited to restricted according to seasonal conditions from 1 April to 30 April then from 1 May unrestricted.

However the prohibited period has extended to very late April and the restricted until very late May in some years.

As a matter of practice I spray a firebreak around all cropped paddocks 3 metres wide which with a tickle with a grader blade leaves a "mineral earth" firebreak. We are, by law, required to provide fire breaks around our properties and around assets (houses, sheds, haystacks etc) and ignition sources like stationary motors, pumps etc.

I had a written permit with conditions that there had to be 3 able bodied persons notice to the local government (Shire Council) notice to the emergency service coms centre, notice to all neighbours, two fire fighting vehicles with at least 110 gallons water and efficient pumps, and a water supply

Equipment I had available on the day was:

4wd Utility truck with 1000 litres (250 US gallons) water, 6.5 hp petrol (gas) powered dual impeller pump, hoses, reels etc and 2 people.

This vehicle also had what we call covering harrows (3 leaves wide) towed behind on two chains that could be unhitched in a moment if fire escaped the area planned to be burnt.

4wd Tractor with 2000 litre, 500 gallon trailed tanker ( Boomspray the rest of the year) pto pump and hose and reel with 1 person.

4wd Tractor with 200 litre linkage tank, electric pump and hose, one person.

Truck with 15500 litre (3875 gal) tank with high volume (250 gal per minute pump) as a nurse tank for the other mobile units , plus 3 inch hose fitted with 1 inch branch (nozzle) as a reserve if the smaller units ran into problems.

One paddock at a time, starting on the furthest downwind paddock and on the downwind extremity of the paddock.

If you do otherwise should a fire escape it can burn over you. Burnovers are the biggest cause of bushfire fighter fatalities.

READY TO GO 

Light a match in the usual way and apply it to the hay :angry:

Spread the fire a short way along the perimeter, so the fire is burning upwind ( mineral earth firebreak on the downhill side.

light fire in the towed gang of harrows and drive along the very edge of the mineral firebreak for a distance of about 100 yards then do a U turn into the paddock about 5 to no more than 10 yards from the area you have just set on fire and drive back to the start do another U turn further into the paddock by about 10 to 12 yards and retrace to the part where you did first U turn and again a U turn deeper into the paddock by about 20 yards this time heading back toward the start, when there another U turn then when to the end of the burning fire go out in the hay, cutting back to the firebreak and start another section about 100 yards long and repeat the back and forth and so on until the end of the paddock is reached the follow the firebreak around the rest of the paddock.

Wind conditions cannot be too high, the fire creates its own wind and when you go around the rest of the paddock ( the upwind side) the fire already lit on the downwind side is drawn back against the wind toward the fire lit on the upwind side. It sure does race.

When satisfied there are no embers on the downwind side likely to escape then move on to the next paddock and repeat the process.

The small tractor unit with UHF 2 way radio is left behind in the paddock just burnt to keep watch and put out any dangerous embers near the edge.

Repeat process until finished.

2 hours 10,000 bales up in smoke and very bare, black paddocks ready for the next crop.

By having a "high speed" fire source lighting a swath about 5 yards wide you can by using the fire behaviour have some control over the direction and rate of spread of the fire by creatively lighting portions to generate a draft and draw the fire away from potential hop overs (escapes).

Happy to report no hop overs. 

The day was about 75 to 80 degrees F with a steady breeze from the South East (our usual summer/ warm weather wind) at about 5 to 8 MPH and no cloud.

No forest near me, but an absentee landowner next door with tinder dry, un-grazed grass about 3 to 4 feet high and the same on another neighbours property. Both properties are very rugged and impassable over most of them to motor vehicles due to concealed rocks, tree-stumps, gullies (I think ravine to you but not that deep), rock outcrops and fallen trees.

A real firefighting challenge if lit up.

Didn't take photos, did not want reminders of the financial pain.

Now that is one long explanation!

Now to the bandit

Yes we can get enough dew to stop bundling at night, and on some nights can bundle all night.

Because we can be so dry, and because the bandit picks up bales and places them top to bottom, some dew can be absorbed in the bundle by the adjoining bale. I could see that with the ground moisture you may have a dewy bale top and a wet bottom would not be good. With the oaten hay the first effect of dew is in the vertical elevator where a dewy bale top gets sticky on the metal and makes the hydraulic motor strain to flick the bale over for the kicker to do its job.

Very often the window of opportunity to bale is the critical limiting factor because the hay becomes too dry and "chaffs" making sharp splinters of stalk that can lodge in a horse's gums. Horses probably do not like the pain and horse people tend to select other hay. You just can't please some people 

I have on occasion, later in the season, not been able to bale until 4.00 am and had to stop at 7.00 am only 30 minutes after sunrise. There is rapid drying of the conditions from mid October on. By beginning November there can be nights with no dew at all.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Thank you for the reply. I hope you didn't have to tap that out on a smart phone like I do when on this forum. Very interesting procedure I am sure there is a lot of nutrients available following a burn like that.I wonder how that would compare to my procedure for ruined crop by shredding or chopping. I would imagine benefits are much more immediate/available after a burn.

I was concerned about moisture levels in the bundles before I read your reply but now I am thinking the feeding of bales would be the first problem with dew covered bales. When I had a NH stackwagon I had my fill of trying to feed bales that were damp or wet. Thanks again.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

Better get the ambulance on speed dial, your going to wipe pap out trying to put bands on fast enough.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

cmd said:


> Better get the ambulance on speed dial, your going to wipe pap out trying to put bands on fast enough.


Even if we pop out 400/hour with 21/bundle thats 3 minute per bundle. Im pretty sure he can handle 2 bands in 3 minutes lol. Hes only 74 and he would like that better then hand stacking in the barn. I will even put a tent cover to keep him out of the sun lol


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Svf, to answer the questions posed, burning puts carbon up into the air, it also triggers the germination of some weed seeds when rain comes. The burning releases ethylene that triggers wild oats, the bane of a grower of oaten hay. But the good news is that triggering germination gets the wild oats out so I can give them a spray before cropping.

Generally I do not have enough rain to get all of the remainder rotted down before hay cutting time comes around. The residue can then be an issue as it is picked up into the new season's hay. The nutrient increase is not even there being a concentration where the windrowed material lay. Fertiliser application must then tread a fine line otherwise over supply of nutrients in the windrow.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Ontario Hay Man, I seem to have missed something, not unusual for me. :wub: but then again I admit I almost had tears in my eyes picturing you and Pa under his tent, flailing like an octopuss on speed as you stack 21 bales and Pa passes the spring-coiled-mind-of-their-own uncooperative straps around the bundles and cranks them up tight.

Both of you working in the middle corridor of a travelling trailer and not getting in each other's way.

As fast as the Bandit and much more use for the rest of the year 

Even with the comfortable tent you provided and the ideal working conditions (a drink and a light lunch), I reckon that Pa would soon wrap the either the banding tool or the crimper (maybe both) about your ears, then Pa would lol.

If your Pa would work like that perhaps he might like a working holiday here to do a few chores for me, I have more than a few to do. Sun can be hot but on the positive side we do not get snow and ice and daylight to dark is much shorter in summer than you have over there. 14 hours sunshine is about the most we get in mid summer.

Back to serious business.

There are some around here that have a stationary bundling arrangement for the off season, but that doesn't get the efficiency into the bottleneck of baler to barn. There are many gadgets, and contraptions all trying to overcome this bottleneck (See Slowzuki's project to pull all the bundlers together covered elsewhere on this Forum). So far the Bandit/Baron style bundlers seem the best yet.

A snowed in man with time and imagination could just come up with a better solution and that may just be you!

I still cannot get the image of you and Pa on a trailer in frenzied activity lol.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya I might have to remove pa from the plan and insert cousin lol. I keep tellin dad worst thing he ever did was not have more kids. If I had 3 or 4 more brothers that could work like me we would be a deadly haying crew lol. I still cant believe how many members pick bales off the ground by hand. Pa said that method was old school in the 70s lol


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Before you do this, get 21 bales out and build a stack and tie it with string and time it. You are in for a surprise I think.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

slowzuki said:


> Before you do this, get 21 bales out and build a stack and tie it with string and time it. You are in for a surprise I think.


Ya im going to for sure a roll of band and tool to do it is about 250 so if it dont work I will use it for something else


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