# Medium and Large Squares versus Rounds



## NDVA HAYMAN

Wanted to find out why a lot of guys bale medium and large squares instead of rounds. What are the advantages of one over the other? Why 3x3 or 4x4? Transportation differences? Handling equipment differences? Stacking and storage? Sales to customers? Costs differences with having larger tractors? Let's talk about all the options out there. Mike


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## Lazy J

Transportation and indoor storage capabilities. You can get more on a trailer in the big square bales than rounds. Rounds are unstable and don't maximize weight. In some states the DOT cops are cracking down on over width loads of rounds.

Of course Round Bales are idiot proof in a sense: Roll em up and stick them in the fence row. You can't do that with the big squares.


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## haybaler101

Top quality hay will not bring the money in rounds that it will in big squares. Most dairymen have TMR's that will handle square's, few can feed rounds.


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## RFHay

Dairys and trasportation around here have us using 3x4. easier to maximize a load for the truckers. though with the drop center b-train trailers, 4x4s are able to max out a load too. We don't usually have storage, so for us being able to stack in a corner 6 bales high and tarp it makes it more efficient to clear a field. Its also easier to feed off a trailer with no special equiptment for the beef guys.


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## enos

For handling, transport and storage of a large volume of hay you can't beat large squares. Where round bales shine is lower cost equipment/HP requirements and the ability of netwrapped bales to shed rain and resist ground moisture if you leave them out a while. Large squares have a big flat surface on top and the cut side of stems in bale lays directly on ground so they should come off field right away. A new 3x3 Square baler is around $80,000 plus a 120hp tractor, round baler $30,000 plus a 80 hp tractor. Round bales are a cheaper way to put up large packages of feed quickly but have their limitations in market, transport, feeding, etc.


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## Production Acres

Last load of 5x5 rd bales we pulled we got pulled into 3 chicken coops and told to never come back to their state with a load like that. Wanted permits, then said permits were not available on hay, etc. Have had so many near wrecks with cars trying to pass us as we are turning with rd bales it isn't funny. We will not buy any 5x5 bales anymore!

4x5 bales - just cannot get any weight on a truck. 12-13 tons is pretty common on full semi. Got a load in the other day weighed only 19,720. Take up lots of storage. Roll into the woods and ponds as you are baling them. Can never sell a rd bale for what you can sell a small square bale or a large square bale for.

3x3 bales - can put 24 tons on a truck, can load van trailers in the field and immediatly get the hay in a "shed". Can stack the hay 18' high in the shed and fill the whole shed up. Can run circles around a rd baler. Can get nicer price for hay.

3x4 bales - handle 1/3 less bales than 3x3's . will heat up a little quicker than 3x3. stacks are more stable. all of the advantages of the 3x3.

4x4 bales - heat quicker that 3x3 or 3x4, 4x4 bales are useful only in big operations as they are too heavy for 95% of your potential customers. 4x4 balers will flat rape a field they can bale so fast. on grass hay, it is hard to max out a 48' flatbed trailer.

As a consumer of hay, big square bales are generally much superior in quality to rd bales as the cost involved in obtaining the equipment to make big squares it such that your more serious operations are the only ones with the equipment and typically, they do a better job on the end product.


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## swmnhay

My reasons for baling with Large Rd Baler HERE.And not switching to big sqrs.
1 It's what my customers want.Most tub grind and a round bale just works better in a tub grinder.
2 Lg sq baler costs over twice as much as Lg rd baler.
3 Lg sq bales need to be stored in side or at least covered and that adds to cost of hay.
4 Lg sq bales need to be baled drier than rds.Can use preservitive but would add to cost of hay.
5 Transportation is not that much of a issue here,most hay is delivered within 20 miles.
6 The price of hay HERE will bring the same at Auction for rd bales or lg sqrs.If I was to haul 200 miles North or East the lg sq market is better.
7 Bottom line for ME HERE.I can produce Lg Rd Bales for less cost per ton.And hopefully net more $ per acre.


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## Beach Farmer

For our area in west central MN it's a tough call. We've got both (or all three if you include small squares). The rounds may be more preferred (horseys or beef) but your not going to get the same return out of them as a 3 x 3 square. It's just the way the market is here, same stuff, just cheaper in a round. We don't have too many dairies around here that are setup for a round, they like the squares. Obviously hauling has some part in that but we're not even transporting that far. We store nearly everything inside so the storage issue is pretty nonexistant.

The other issue is field location. most of our grass hay is made on soft ground. I'll put up most of the grass in rounds and small squares primarily because I have a market for it and I don't want to get a big square baler stuck. If we have enough demand, we may make up some squares. Nearly all the alfalfa goes to the dairies so it's all squares for me on that.

On the cost issue, I've been surprised at how small the gap is between between 3 x 3 squares and the 4 x 5's or 6's we make. Whether you look at custom rates or your own costs it seems similar. If you have dedicated equipment for each, it would be different but when your sharing everything but the baler between the two shapes, there isn't a whole lot of difference.

Great discussion. Thanks for the post. All in all, I'll keep on producing what the market wants at a price that makes it worth my effort. So far that mantra has held.


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## Krone

We put together some information a few years back that compares Round Baler and Large Square Baler production - from equipment needs, shipping, storage and handling, and some production data on the economics of both. This information is just a sample of what a producer needs to know to compare but it hits most of the important points. It's called BiG Pack Boot Camp.

If you would like a copy please send me a "pm" and we will mail you a copy.

PS - the data was compiled two years ago and input costs have changed. You will be able to see the way we figured everything and be able to put your own figures in.

The best thing you can do to make a decision is to put it down on paper and compare. It's too easy to get overwhelmed with the option to go to BiG squares from round bales.


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## Krone

One more note - producing large square bales will force you to produce a higher quality product!


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Hey Guys, You are doing a great job here. I love to listen to everyones opinion. It makes us all think about our operation. PA and swmnhay- liked those comments. Keep them coming. Mike


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## Cannon

PA is right on. My customers want the fewer number of bales the better, they don't want 3 x 3's and will buy 3 x 4's but mostly they want are 4x4. If a manufacture would make a 5 x 5 that's what they want. Out here we are a dry climate and don't get the spoilage that you do back east. The dairy's like 3x4 straw bales, they use them as caps for the stacks of 4x4's.

speed is what they want Example. I pull in with my semi with a 56 foot trailer and hold 28 square bales, Roy ( they guy that usually unloads us) has me unloaded in 5- 7 min average. 10 if he get a phone call, he makes me hurry to get the straps off before he stabs the bales to unload them.

You need the size equipment that your customer requests, and meets his needs. Where I am 90% of the bales are 4x4 and that whats most of the customers are set up to receive.


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> My reasons for baling with Large Rd Baler HERE.And not switching to big sqrs.
> 1 It's what my customers want.Most tub grind and a round bale just works better in a tub grinder.
> 2 Lg sq baler costs over twice as much as Lg rd baler.
> 3 Lg sq bales need to be stored in side or at least covered and that adds to cost of hay.
> 4 Lg sq bales need to be baled drier than rds.Can use preservitive but would add to cost of hay.
> 5 Transportation is not that much of a issue here,most hay is delivered within 20 miles.
> 6 The price of hay HERE will bring the same at Auction for rd bales or lg sqrs.If I was to haul 200 miles North or East the lg sq market is better.
> 7 Bottom line for ME HERE.I can produce Lg Rd Bales for less cost per ton.And hopefully net more $ per acre.


All of the above and,

Here as well good hay is good hay regardless of the bale. Depends on the year as well. Last year if the hay was of equal quality, my rounds were selling for the same amount as medium/large squares.

This year I'm actually doing better than the medium/large squares and am almost selling my rounds for as much as the small squares are selling for. A lot of producers in the area traded in their round balers and jumped on the big square bandwagon around here and killed their own market. It's very rare to see any horse owners in this area buying large squares while 60% or more of my round bales end up going to the hay burners.

I won't argue that a large square baler will eat a lot more hay than my round baler will, but I'm putting up almost 200 acres by myself and with a good solid round bale wrapped in net I don't have to be up till midnight or later picking bales up by myself trying to beat a morning rain.

One last thing, no knotters on a round baler


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## haytimer

WELL SAID MLAPPIN AND SW AGREE 100%
In my operation aprox 50% goes to STANDARDBRED STABLES aprox 40% goes to pleasure and show horses and the balance to cattle..ALL IN 4x5 rounds...anyone who deals with the standardbred industry knows how critical the qaulity has to be and if its not you will not supply that stable very long.. far as the rumors of rounds not bringing what large squares do... around here they will..
Far as a large square baler making better qaulity dont believe that either..the operator dictates the quality and decides if the hay is a go...just my opinion and that it works for me


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## TooFast4U

Good discussion, and easy to see how your preference/choices depend on your local market conditions.

In my area there are very few dairys; we're mostly beef cows and pleasure horses. Very few large square balers here (more of them all the time, but still not many yet). Except for small squares used by many horse people, big round bales are king here because of:


Pre-existing investment in feeding equipment: nearly every cow-calf operation either has bale rings or a pickup with a bale bed for rolling out hay, and most do not have storage for large squares. Switching to large squares would require a bit of reorganizing how people store, handle, and feed hay.
Limited size of customers' equipment. We also make "small" large rounds (some as small as 4' x 4')...the guy with 2 horses and a NH Boomer tractor can handle them with his small eqipment.
Storage: as already mentioned, big rounds can be placed anywhere regardless of whether you have storage, and that includes the fact that you can have a load delivered to any remote spot and just leave it there even if you won't feed it for weeks.
Flexibility: the lower cost of round bale equipment has already been mentioned. I'd add to that, that it also doesn't cost as much to do "other things" with your large rounds. We make baleage in large rounds, which only required adding an $18,000 bale wrapper. And we can sell round baleage locally because, again, our baleage matches up well with the typical bale transportation & feeding system found locally...people feed baleage mostly in bale rings, and we use the same side-dump round bale trailer for local deliveries, which doesn't require a loader on the delivery end.


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## hay wilson in TX

I like to say we work our soil and climate, But we are also have to consider our customer. That is the reason the small sq bale, here is wire tied. Two wire 50 to 60 lb bales. Here our dairies are milk goat dairies. Here the performance horses is as rare as a dairy cow. Here the 5 X 6 RB is a standard. 
Not saying this is necessarily good, just that us what people are used to.

One thing the large Sq bales will do is improve the pricing for RB's. I be a say this becouse there will continue to be a market for RB's and if there is a rush to the large Sq's the will be fewer RB's around to meet this demand. 
It is my opinion that RB's do not sell at a discount but that Sm Sq's sell at a premium. HERE.


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## MikeRF

Probably a huge generalization but markets in SW Ontario are driven as follows
Large squares - almost exclusively by the US dairy market down the Eastern Seaboard. Even with a real shortage of good quality hay this year large squares are a tough sell at the farm gate for $110-120/ton. Two years ago this would have been $160/180. Some local cattle and horse usage but not enough to hold the price.
Round - Huge local market for pleasure horses and some sport. The majority are 4x5s and fed in ring feeders in paddocks over winter and in dry summers. Because of this, decent quality hay in rounds is a much more stable market at around $110-130 farm gate. Better money when you consider the lower input costs already discussed in this thread.
Small squares - Over the last ten years there has been a massive increase in the number of Thoroughbred and Standardbred stables move into what is known as the "Golden Horseshoe" around Lake Ontario. Large,fully licensed slot machine arcades linked to the tracks have bought the public in and purses in the races have become the highest in North America. The majority of these stables use small squares which provides a base. Pleasure and show barns add to that to create strong trade for small squares. 
In the past a large quantity of small squares also was exported into the Eastern US and down to Florida. With the smaller difference in our dollars and more competition from hay that would normally head into the dairy market, this is now becoming a smaller driving force. 
Local small squares would see comfortably $180-200 @ farm gate. Local retail can be as much as $250+ delivered. The introduction of handling systems like the Baron/Bandit have made this a more attractive premium to try and achieve.


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## GeneRector

Howdy! This is a very interesting discussion on square bales and round bales. Where I live in Texas, the only large squares I see are on 18 wheeler truck & trailors on I-45 heading South. I am not aware of anyone around me making 3X3 or 4X4 squares; however, most hay is made into round bales and small square bales. The hay made around here is mostly Coastal Bermuda and some of the other related hays like Jiggs or Tifton. Alfalfa is not made around here due to the beetle problems. I can see that 3X3 or other large squares could be something to look into; however, most people buying round bales store them outside, thus a barn space problem might be the reason large square bales and the costs for equipment are the concerns for not making them. Most hay is feed to cattle and horses in my area of Texas. Cattle usually get the round bales and horses get the small square bales. Some horse people are using round bales as well. Keep up the discussions on this topic. I am learning more and more each day. Take care! 
Always,
Gene


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## hay wilson in TX

"Alfalfa is not made around here due to the beetle problems"

There is a Folk *Phobia* that is very popular among Texas Horse owners. 
To start with the Blister Beetle is the villain. The striped Blister Beetle emerges from the ground close to mid June. Until that time it is living on Grasshopper eggs. In our Centex climate the first cutting of alfalfa is in early April, the second cutting is in mid to late May. There for roughly half of any alfalfa grown south Dallas is in the barn before this beetle emerges. The third cutting is in prime beetle conditions. Here in June we have excellent hay curing weather. 
Which brings us to another characteristic of the BB. It's poison is in it's blood. How this poison contaminates hay is the beetle goes through the conditioning rollers of a Mower conditioner, the beetle is squashed and it's blood gets on the hay. The presence of a beetles carcase is not required to have contaminated hay. Now if the hay is cut with a simple mowing machine the beetles will not be crushed, the blood will not get on the hay. Because of the excellent hyay drying weather of our June there is no requirement to condition the hay. Here July and August are dry and little or no growth is expected of alfalfa with out irrigation. By the time we get enough rain for some growth for another cutting it October and the beetle season is essentially over. 
An interesting bit of biology is most of the beetles life is in the ground eating grass hoppers eggs. When it emerges it is only interested in procreation which requires energy. Sugar is energy and there preferred source is eating the blooms of flowering plants. The blooms of the nightshade is preferred but if forced to they will go into an alfalfa field that is in bloom. 
Another charastic of the BB tribe is it likes company of it's own kind. When you see one you will see hundreds all in a small area. Some call this a swarm. That is not the accurate term but it will do. I like to think of them as a school of minnows rather than as an aggregation. I have never seen them in their aggregation that I could not hide the whole bunch under a PU truck. Usually you can hide them under a VW Bug.

Now there is a very good reason for not growing alfalfa for the horse owning trade. Alfalfa has way more energy and considerably more protein than the typical pleasure horse will ever require. The exception is a brood mare with a colt at her side, or a horse in training for the race track or for the rodeo. For the pleasure horse a good pasture is ideal. Alfalfa will only lead to problems.

For the pleasure horse a reasonably good bermudagrass hay will do just fine. A hay with 10, maybe 12 % protein will do just fine.

It is a fact that any place that has both grasshoppers and flowering plants will have some kind of blister beetle. The most exciting one is the stripped BB, and we have it here. A lethal dose of a striped BB poison for a 1,000 lb. animal is from 55 beetles. For a 110 lb sheep or human is 6 beetles. For the Gray or Black BB it roughly takes the poisen from 200 beetles. Now a horse will colic and die at less than a lethal dose!

You can do a search on the Blister Beetle and find many states have a good to great publications. Last time I looked Texas was not one of them. Kentucky's is popular. It is well written and has good pictures, but is no better than Missouri's. Still Kentucky is considered to be the authority when it comes to horses.

It is my opinion that few if any of the Veterinarians of this state have any understanding of the BB. 
A horse can be run over by a train and the Vet is likely to say the culprit is BB poisoning.

Another name for the blister beetle is Spanish Fly. At one time it was thought that there was some medicinal value to the Spanish Fly. A BB's poison on the outer skin is painful. The blisters in the internal organs is even more uncomfortable. It is the male that has the highest level of poison, by a factor of 10.


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## GeneRector

Howdy! That was some great information on the blister beetles and alfalfa. I don't know anyone around where I live that grows alfalfa. However, I have been told that if you cut and bale early before the bloom stage, you could make beetle free alfalfa hay. Some years ago I was traveling over just west of Bryan, TX in late winter/early spring and noticed someone baling small squares of some kind of hay. It was way too early for anything like Coastal Bermuda so I thought maybe it might be some kind of Alfalfa or winter type grass. 
Always,
Gene


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## hay wilson in TX

At one time there was a good bit of alfalfa grown in the Brazos Bottom, back when there were a number of small dairies.

Yes cutting before the alfalfa blooms will also avoid the BB. That is the stage that alfalfa is desired by many of the current dairies. Much too rich for the horse's diet.


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## nwfarmer

We are just starting to get the blister beetle in NW Wyoming. In Montana they took the conditioners off of their swathers to keep from crushing them. Last summer we had an abundance of grasshoppers so, more than I have ever seen before, suspect we will have more BB this year.


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## hay wilson in TX

For years and years the Eastern Alfalfa Growers were smug about the BB. They were sure it was only a problem for the Irrigated Western growers. I seems the beetle puts up in a windrow over night. There night baling is the source for hundreds of beetle carouses in each flake. Even then there will only be a few contaminated bales from one maybe two windrows. 
In the Humid East the beetles are well gone from the windrow by the time they start baling. Then the mower conditioner came on the scene and they were having blister beetle poisoning with few if any bugs in the bale.

As I said above any place there is both flowering plants and grasshoppers there have been BB's. The saving grace for the world at large is the striped blister beetle has a limited range. A sub lethal dose is something that will make a cow go off feed and lose production but not die. Silly Horses can and do colic and die at sub lethal levels. Just what the mortal sub lethal dose is different for each individual horse.

The critters are easy to spot two rounds before you get to the aggregation,* if the individual mowing is alive and awake*. Each alfalfa stem will be covered with the little critters in a 10 maybe 12 square foot Woodstock area. Even when using a simple mower I pick up and go over the area they are. With a 7 disk mower I seldom have to pick up more than two passes over the area. With a 14 foot swather that would involve a lot of hay left standing. If I used hired or family labor I would have a policy against having radios, or I pods.


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## RCF

We have all three bale kinds small, round (4x5), and large square 3x3. The small squares go for a premium but it takes a lot of time and equipment to get alot done. Rounds around here flood the market and their is usually alot of cheap hay sold that you have to compete against. 4x5 is the most popular bale shape since it is easier to handle and ship. We are one of the few running a big square in this area because of its higher capacity, more economical shipping, stacking in the barn, and its appeal to many different markets.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

I would like to know how producers perceive their COSTS per ton for making hay in large squares versus rounds .. Was also wondering what the return on investment was for their equipment used to make them. Can you state what type of hay is preferred in your area, state that you are located in and what type of operation uses that particular type of hay. I see that a lot of dairies use large or medium squares but most I see are using rounds. Thanks to all for your comments.


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## hay wilson in TX

I would like to know how producers perceive their COSTS per ton for making hay in large squares versus rounds

Cost by the ton will vary greatly. There were a few computer prgrams to figure your cost per hour. Oklhoma and TX A&M had such programs. Not sure if they or any others are still around.

Cost of operation by the hour is the key. A few years ago it cost $150/hour to run a full size roundbaler. A small Sq was in the $90/hour range.


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## enos

I don't do the large squares but a few numbers on round bales/ small squares where I'm at.
Numbers are by the bale as that is how I sell it.

Round bale Hay
848 Nh 4x5'

Dry hay 
800 lbs approx. weight $10 land rent/fert cost, $22 mow, ted, rake, bale, $10 hauling to yard per bale.
$42.00 per bale in shed
Round bale haylage 
1600 lbs approx weight $10 land rent/fert $25 mow, bale, wrap 6 layers, $10 hauling to yard or local del.
$45.00 per bale del/yard

Dry hay 1st cut $70.00 per bale to horse girls
Silage $60.00 per bale if any one is buying or has cows

Square bales
55Lbs 1st cut 
land rent/fert $1.00 per bale, mow, ted, rake, bale $3.00 left on field, Hauling (1033 NH stackliner) $0.50 to $1.00 depending on distance, Stacking and storage $.50 to $1.00 depending on shed/barn (some hand stacked/ some wagon stacked)
Cost per bale $5.00 to $6.00 in the shed
Sells for $7.50 to $10.00 per bale depending on quality/ type

Listening to a summer rainstorm pound a tin roof after the last load is in,

PRICELESS!!!


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## jhag

Enos,

Are you saying you are getting 7.50 to 10.00 per bale at the barn, or are you talking about shipping them out of the country? In Ontario, we think we're making a killing at half that price!

Jim


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## enos

jhag said:


> Enos,
> 
> Are you saying you are getting 7.50 to 10.00 per bale at the barn, or are you talking about shipping them out of the country? In Ontario, we think we're making a killing at half that price!
> 
> Jim


Jim
$7.50 1st cut fescue/ timothy mix 55-60 lbs bale
$10.00 1st cut, same stuff minus the fescue( gotta love horse girls)
Price outa my barn or dumped in front of theirs with bale wagon.
I like haying but I own a caculator so there is not huge margins in it but it beats blueberry farming.
I live on an island, ferries are expensive. Our inputs are high, paid $1000.00 per tonne fert last year, iffy weather, blah, blah, assorted other farmer whining/ bitching insert here. 
And I am paying $25,000 per acre to buy land in bigger chunks, $100,000 on the smaller pieces. Only one crop in Canada will pay for that and they grow it in Vancouver in basements under lights!!! Now if I could only get a medicinal production permit.....
Enos


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## jhag

Enos,

Now your talking about another completely different "grass" mixture! Worth considerably more per bale.

Jim


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## swmnhay

Heard it was the largest cash crop in US.


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## enos

jhag said:


> Enos,
> 
> Now your talking about another completely different "grass" mixture! Worth considerably more per bale.
> 
> Jim


Just imagine what a bale would be worth!!!! $50,000 to $100,000 per bale depending on market conditions. Before the US border tightened up they say the crop of BC bud was worth 5 BIllion, yes with a B, a year. Cash, no tax, in brown bags. Unreal. Legalize it and tax the crap outa it and we would pay for the Olympics in a week.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Gee Enos, Just think. You could sell one bale and buy one acre!


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## Production Acres

Our state inspector from the Department of Agriculture told me one day that he used to work at a hay press facility in Mexico. He was the shift leader and said he was always trying to tell the boss how to do things better so they could increase effiecency on the alfalfa hay production. Boss told him alfalfa hay didn't pay the bills, the product that ran through the press at night was what paid the bills! - Nice and green and compressed for shipping!


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## haybaler101

Number one cash crop in our county, and the law doesn't even worry about it with meth problem we have now. As long as you support your local sheriff, feel free to grow all you want! By the way, I heard a few years ago that one anhydrous wagon full delivered to Chicago for meth was worth a million bucks.


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## enos

Well folks, it is good to see some agricuture sectors are doing well even with the ressesion.


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## swmnhay

Meth around here is getting to be something else.Some people just throwing there lives away.Local farmer got busted for dealing and probably was making it.Out on bail and gets busted again.What an idiot.Probably loose everything over it and looking at prison.Another businessman also got busted for dealing.The business that his dad started is now closed.These guys had the world by the azz taking over their fathers operations and they thru it away.These are not kids they are 50 yrs old.

Maybe they will wake up in prison when Bubba throws a bar of soap on shower floor and tells them to pick it up.


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## enos

That stuff is evil and cheap. Up here it is everywhere. Got to the point now with crack heads and methy moms that when I go to town I leave the windows open in the truck. Better than driving home with a a$$ full of glass. Had some one steal the AM radio outa an old farm truck. Who the hell is going to buy an AM radio out of a 78 GMC?!?! All you could hear on it was the alltenator whine.Leave nothing in there now and avoid going to town.


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## HALLSHAY

Bale size to Blister Beetle to Mary Jane to Meth. The way this thread has jumped around people are gonna think everyone on here is smoking.
In Colorado all you need is some back pain or a tooth ache and you can get a license to buy and grow. Around here it is going for 4k per pound.


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## enos

HALLSHAY said:


> Bale size to Blister Beetle to Mary Jane to Meth. The way this thread has jumped around people are gonna think everyone on here is smoking.
> In Colorado all you need is some back pain or a tooth ache and you can get a license to buy and grow. Around here it is going for 4k per pound.


Proof that drugs effect the attention span of people, $4000.00 a pound, ten square bales and I could buy my dream farm. Hey, the Stokes cataloge has a section on herbs, where did my wife put it...


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## tw30

1 large round = 8,000,000$ guess the goverment dont like people to get rich eh ? xd

5 bales per acre (or how many 2000 lb bales you get per acre)

5 bales per acre x 200 acres -1000 bales @ 8m per bale = 8,000,000,000


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## enos

tw30 said:


> 1 large round = 8,000,000$ guess the goverment dont like people to get rich eh ? xd
> 
> 5 bales per acre (or how many 2000 lb bales you get per acre)
> 
> 5 bales per acre x 200 acres -1000 bales @ 8m per bale = 8,000,000,000


Farming a couple of hundred acres may even get rid of your countries deficit.


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## tw30

nothing can help this goverment


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## jliltd

In far west TX we grow practically all alfalfa. We are flood-irrigated arid desert area with fields along the Rip Grande. Nearly every horse in our valley and adjacent NM valley grew up with and eat alfalfa exclusively. This is whether they are racehorses, pleasure horses or anything in between. We also have a few large dairies and they want 4x4 alfalfa 1-ton bales. The horse folks generally want 2-strand small bales. Rained-on hay usually goes to feedlots or at discounted price to dairies.
We have no blister beatle and get between 5 and 6 cuts per year. Zero market for round bales. Some have tried it but local market didn't want them so they rotted away.
My wife has an uncle in the horse business south of San Antonio and he propagates the same idea about alfalfa being too rich for horses. Our local folks disagree. He is in an area used to coastal hay with a specified feed rate. If folks try alfalfa they need to understand that you don't feed the same quantity of alfalfa as you would coastal. If you gave your horses 5 flakes of coastal maybe you should drop it to 3 flakes with alfalfa. YMMV


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## sedurbin

You make some good points. You probably have a lot of horses dying from Kidney failure.


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## jordan

just like the other post say quality hay brings a lot more in squares vs rounds but it brings a premium when its in small squares, My dad and I actually re-bale large rounds and large squares into small bails as the main business on our farm if you want to see how it works take a look at my blog Central Iowa Hay


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## saltwater

I also am in West Texas and feed exclusively alfalfa. My family gets attached to their animals so I have kept a few until death from old age. One old mule that raised all of my kids died at 40 yrs. old. I have never had any issues with their kidneys. They get alfalfa yr round, and graze my fields after my last cutting until time to pull them out in the spring. The only thing I do is ease them into it a few hours a day for the first few days. The last variety I had would green up during winter months if we had a few warm days and the newest variety stayed green all winter even with probably ten different snows on it. I did have one horse that would act like she was allergic to alfalfa and really had to ease her into it but after awhile she came around.
Back to the subject though, around here people do not understand the difference in pricing between alfalfa in a round bale vs. haygrazer pricing in a round they think it should be the same price. There is not that much grass that is not brought out of East Texas.


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## jliltd

sedurbin said:


> You make some good points. You probably have a lot of horses dying from Kidney failure.


Nope. You are perpetuating a long-standing myth. You provide little basis for the second sentence other than hearsay - a horse with kidney trouble has kidney trouble due to genetic or pre-existing propensities and these are not caused by feeding alfalfa. A little research can go an long way. If you are very serious in finding out more about the misconceptions of feeding alfalfa pm me and I'll put you in touch with a research veterinarian and horse breeder / trainer in Southern New Mexico who works for a preeminent animal testing lab. She knows more about the equine feeding of alfalfa than most and most weekends finds her participating in horse shows.

As further evidence please see the following link and excerpted post from it:

Source: http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/hrs3243

_
*Myth: "You should never give a horse straight alfalfa."*
Never say never. In California and the southwest United States, horses are routinely fed straight alfalfa as the only forage. In that region, alfalfa is cheap, plentiful, and the horses do quite well. While some horses may not need alfalfa, others would truly benefit from receiving alfalfa. The difference lies in what nutrients alfalfa provides, and what the horse actually needs. Alfalfa contains more energy, protein and calcium than most grass hays, such as timothy, brome grass, orchard grass, etc. This nutrient profile makes it most suitable for young, growing horses and lactating mares, because they have high protein and mineral requirements. By comparison, alfalfa exceeds the protein requirements of idle horses and performance horses. That does not mean these horses cannot receive straight alfalfa. It just means alfalfa provides more protein than these classes of horses need. Alfalfa also tastes good, so it's useful when you've got a finicky eater or a horse with a poor appetite.

While alfalfa is more nutrient-rich than most other forages, it is not any richer than many other feeds commonly used for horses. For example, good quality pasture is often higher in calories and protein than alfalfa hay. Leafy, rapidly growing spring pasture grass may contain 20 to 26% protein. By comparison, mid-maturity alfalfa hay will contain 16 to 18% protein.

*Myth: "Straight alfalfa should not be fed to young, growing horses."*
Foals do not have the same capacity as an adult horse to house and digest lots of mature forage in an effort to obtain the nutrition they need for growth. Foals have greater nutrient needs than adult horses, but a digestive system only one-third as big. As a result, growing horses need a nutrient-dense diet-lots of nutrition in a small package. Alfalfa can help us meet their high energy, protein and calcium needs without having to add a lot of extra bulk to the diet. High protein does not cause developmental orthopaedic disease (more on that later), nor does high calcium. Furthermore, we can adjust the high calcium to phosphorus ratio in alfalfa with a suitable mineral supplement.

*Myth: "Straight alfalfa causes colic and founder."*
Very few people who circulate this myth have ever actually experienced these problems themselves. And since most people don't want to risk their horse developing colic or laminitis, this rumour stuck. I'm not saying it couldn't happen (never say never). Some horses may be predisposed to colic and founder, particularly obese horses and fat ponies. For these easy keepers, alfalfa may be too much of a good thing and is probably better avoided. However, most feed-related cases of colic or laminitis tend to result from feeding grain, alfalfa or other feeds incorrectly.

Because it is richer in energy and protein, alfalfa should be limit-fed-fed in a fixed amount-rather than offered free-choice. Horses that are fed too much alfalfa or allowed to eat as much as they want often relish the forage so much they will become obese. And obesity is certainly a predisposing factor for colic and laminitis. Because alfalfa has a higher nutrient value, less alfalfa hay will be needed to meet the horse's requirements, compared to the amount of grass hay needed. For example, a mature, 1100-lb horse used for light work will only need 16 lbs of alfalfa each day, but would need 22 lbs of timothy hay to meet dietary requirements.

Risk of colic or laminitis also increases when people switch from a mature grass hay to a good alfalfa hay without giving the horse time to adjust to the diet change. The microorganisms in the horse's digestive tract need time to adjust to new feeds, particularly when going from a low quality feed to a higher quality feed. So, if you are switching to a straight alfalfa hay, adjust the horse to alfalfa gradually over a period of 1 to 2 weeks (each day or two, replace more of the old hay with the alfalfa). And remember you will be feeding a fixed amount of alfalfa, probably less hay than you were feeding before.

The same is true for grazing a horse on an alfalfa pasture. Horses can safely graze on an alfalfa stand if given time to adjust to the forage. Start with 2 to 4 hours of grazing and gradually build up the turnout time over 1 to 2 weeks. Keep in mind that mature horses may not need to graze 24 hours per day to obtain all the nutrients they need if the pasture is of high quality. To make better use of your pasture and to avoid obesity, consider restricting grazing time.

*Myth: "Alfalfa causes bloat in horses."*
Alfalfa (or any legume) can cause bloat in cattle and other ruminants, and presumably that's where this myth began. As cattle digest forages, the microorganisms in their rumen naturally produce gas. In most cases, cattle eliminate this gas by burping up cud for re-chewing (the process of rumination). When cattle graze lush pastures full of clover and alfalfa, a froth develops, trapping the gas in the rumen, thereby leading to a bloated appearance. In contrast, horses do not develop bloat when grazing alfalfa because of the layout of their digestive tract. The alfalfa must first pass through the horse's stomach and small intestine before it undergoes microbial digestion in the large intestine. Because significant digestion of alfalfa takes place in the stomach and small intestine, there is less of a chance for gas to become trapped in the large intestine and cause bloat. As mentioned above, gradually adapting horses to pastures with alfalfa will help prevent many problems.

*Myth: "Alfalfa causes kidney damage."*
Although alfalfa may provide more protein than mature horses need, there is no evidence to suggest that a moderate dietary excess of protein is detrimental to healthy horses. Protein is made up of amino acids, which are composed of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. When horses (or humans) consume more protein than they need, the carbon, hydrogen and oxygen from the amino acids are used for energy and the excess nitrogen is excreted in the urine. Horses consuming alfalfa (and other high protein feeds) have been noted to drink more often and urinate more than horses consuming lower protein diets. But there is no reason to believe that a horse's kidneys will be damaged when this occurs. It's only when a horse already has pre-existing kidney disease that the high calcium and protein in alfalfa can aggravate kidney dysfunction.

When feeding alfalfa, it is important to provide free-choice access to water to ensure the horse can flush the excess nitrogen from its body. When alfalfa-fed horses receive only restricted access or limited amounts of water, they often produce more concentrated brown, thick urine. _


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## larbuckle

i live in new mexico and ive had horses all my life. using alfalfa as there main source of food ive never had a horse die from kidney failure. i feed my horses twice a day 1 flake in the morning and 1 flake in the evening. in the summer when im team roping alot i will add 10% sweet feed to their diet to help maintain weight. most people in the east feed alfalfa like grass hay they cut a bale open an let the horse eat as he chooses an thats when they colic. ive never had a horse colic from alfalfa. i have had a horse colic from getting into the grain bin and eating all the sweet feed. all though he made it through, he was a handful to ride for a while


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