# Fertilizer Blends



## hcriddle

Good morning folks,

My soil tests came back 95/105/40 as needed lbs/acre to produce 3 cuttings a year. I would like to fertilize after each cutting but I am not sure if this test result means apply this after each cutting or once a year at the beginning of the season. Seems like a lot for each cutting. If you guys can give me some advice I would appreciate it.

NRCS says apply 33-33-0 @ 197lbs/acre after first green up and 33-0-0 at 197lbs/acre after first cutting. Feed store says they can't do a 33-33-0 blend and recommended 24-24-10 at 420lbs/acre at $380 ton. That one is gonna hurt.

If I want to fertilize after each cutting to replace what I take out should I start with a particular blend at green up and then figure it after each cutting based on how many lbs of hay I take out?

Thanks in advance,

Buddy


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## r82230

My understanding of some base fertilizers are:

Urea = 46% N 0% Ph 0% K

DAP = 18% N 46% Ph 0% K

MAP = 11% N 52% Ph 0% K

Potash= 0% N 0% Ph 60% K

These are common in MY area, they blend a combination of these base materials to achieve different (so called) standard blends 19-19-19 or 24-24-10, etc.

With your numbers (95/105/40), IMHO you would need a custom blend of 200# of MAP, 158# of Urea and 67# of Potash per acre (425# per acre). Approximately a 22-24-9 mixture, so the 24-24-10 would be close for certain.

What I do (using bulk fertilizer and spreader), is ask for (using your numbers as an example for 10 acres), put 2000# of DAP, 1580# of Urea and 670# of potash mixed together in my spreader. Have them give me a density weight (so I can set the spreader).

Clear as mud maybe not, but that's how I do it in MY area.

Larry


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## hcriddle

Thanks Larry. I couldn't figure out why NRCS got something so different than I had but I found out he was looking at a different set of numbers.


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## rjmoses

Couple of questions (and welcome to HT):

First: what kind of hay are you producing? Some take more of one type of fertilizer than others. E.g., alfalfa doesn't need N.

Second: What where the base numbers for P&K? I try to maintain mine at 70 & 300, then apply P&K based off the TONNAGE I take off. (I have a chart someplace that shows the rate needed to maintain the 70/300 level but I can't find it right now.)

Third: What is your soil type? E.g., Sandier soils loose nitrogen more through leaching that clay soils?

Ralph


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## Vol

This company is in the fertilizer brokerage business, but they have some very good information that they supply the public. One of my favorite explanations is for phosphates in MAP vs. DAP.

Regards, Mike

http://fertilizerbrokerage.com/map-11-52-0.html


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## hcriddle

I decided to go ahead and text again since I established the grass last spring and applied fertilizer then. I also have planted a cover crop the last two fall seasons. My soil test was from last year so although not terribly old a lot has been done since the test.

Ralph, I have Tifton 85 that I sprigged last spring. I gave it all of last year to establish and my soils run from a sandy loam on one end to clay on the other end. Base numbers were really bad as this land had not had anything done to it for about 80 years as best I can gather. I bought this place ten years ago and a neighbor had cows on it. The grass was KR Bluestem and other weeds. I have spent the last three years trying to improve the soil and getting rid of weeds and getting the T85 planted. I feel very good about how well the grass took and look forward to finally being able to see a return on the work and money invested so far. I have followed all you guys on here throughout this process and learned a tremendous amount about how to do it right and produce a quality product.

My starting point on the soils was 0N 8P 97K on the field that is more sandy loam and 0N 6P 188K on the field with more clay soil.

Once I get my numbers back on this test I took yesterday I will update the base numbers but as you can see there was not much to work with starting out. I think I have a chart as well that tells me how much I take off with tonnage on Bermuda grasses.

Mike thanks for the article. It was very helpful in understanding how to determine whether MAP or DAP is what I need most. The learning curve has been pretty steep but has been worth the effort. Thank goodness for Google that helps me look up the things you guys are talking about so I can understand it better!


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## rjmoses

Vol said:


> This company is in the fertilizer brokerage business, but they have some very good information that they supply the public. One of my favorite explanations is for phosphates in MAP vs. DAP.
> 
> Regards, Mike
> 
> http://fertilizerbrokerage.com/map-11-52-0.html


Learn something new every day! I am going to talk to my FS about MAP. I like the sounds of the article, MAP hasn't been readily available near me, so I just kinda went along with DAP but now I'm going to dig a little deeper.

Thanks

Ralph


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## FarmerCline

Vol said:


> This company is in the fertilizer brokerage business, but they have some very good information that they supply the public. One of my favorite explanations is for phosphates in MAP vs. DAP.
> 
> Regards, Mike
> 
> http://fertilizerbrokerage.com/map-11-52-0.html


 I ran across that site a few weeks ago. I found the DAP vs MAP explanation very interesting as well. It sounds like from what it said I need to switch from using DAP to MAP to get better avalibility of the phosphate on the soils I have built up the ph to around 7 to grow alfalfa. I wish they would have also talked about triple super phosphate (0-46-0) to see how it compared to DAP and MAP.


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## hcriddle

Ok guys got my soil tests back and here they are. Open to suggestions and explanations on whether you would fertilize now with a heavier application or fertilize after each cut to replace what I take out. My understanding is this is the better way and is my original plan.

View attachment 3-17 Soil Report Field 1.pdf


View attachment 3-17 Soil Report Field 2.pdf


By the way field one is more sandy loam and field two is more clay soil.


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## somedevildawg

Man I wish I had ph like that....perhaps a tad less but better than where mine started for sure. 
First off, I would do them after each cutting....
Secondly, I would settle on a blend at my local co-op that got me close to a target of 100n and 60k and run with that....
Hold on to ur britches tho....


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## swmnhay

Is that each cutting X 3?


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## reede

So, is this kind of like the soil HayWilson used to talk about? High pH and high Ca levels? He talked about either P or K, I don't remember which, getting bound up in his soils.

But like Dawg said, definitely jealous of your pH. Do you have access to poultry litter?


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## hcriddle

OK so we come up with a 29-20-4 blend at 327lbs/a. I possibly have access to poultry litter but I have one neighbor who can be a difficult at times. I don't want to give an excuse to complain about smell or anything.

So my question Dawg is, Do I apply this blend after each cutting or am I applying 110lbs/a after each cutting so that I get to 327lbs at the end of the season.

swmnhay, I am not sure if you are asking me or somedevildawg about the X3?


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## r82230

hcriddle said:


> swmnhay, I am not sure if you are asking me or somedevildawg about the X3?


I would say you, I would also be guessing it means 3 cuttings perhaps.

I would also guess sample 2 is from the field with more clay. IMHO, to bad you don't get CEC levels of your soil, it could help with the question of splitting your custom blended fertilizer application or not IMHO.

Larry


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## hcriddle

Found my answer in the soil reports. This is the current need. down at the bottom of the page it says apply 100lbs/A of nitrogen for each subsequent hay cutting. I wish I could remember where to find HayWilson's numbers on how much nitrogen is taken off with each cutting of grass. I will keep looking but it appears from the reports that I am taking 100lbs of nitrogen with each cutting. That is figuring 2.5 ton/A yield which I don't think I will get this first year.


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## r82230

I wish I had bottled up some of HayWilson's knowledge myself (I would have said all of his knowledge, but that would be a lot of bottles!!). Shame on me, I shall learn from my mistakes (I hope). I really hope he is doing well, I will always be indebted to his willingness to share his knowledge.

Larry


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## swmnhay

hcriddle said:


> swmnhay, I am not sure if you are asking me or somedevildawg about the X3?


Was wondering if you fertilized each cutting at this rate?

HERE the soil test recomendation comes back for the yr and either put on 1 shot or split between 2 depending how much is called for.That is for alfalfa so no N is needed.


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## hcriddle

That was what I was trying to figure out too!

When I got the grass sprigged I split the application and put part out and disc'ed it in just before sprigging then part the second application out at initial green up and it worked really well. That's why I was trying to understand this recommendation before I put it all out at one time.

I was afraid of that much each cutting but it appears that after putting this out to deal with current need, I just put back 100lbs N after each cutting. I may still be way off base. For some reason figuring out the fertilizer stuff has been the most confusing part of this process.


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## somedevildawg

swmnhay said:


> Was wondering if you fertilized each cutting at this rate?
> 
> HERE the soil test recomendation comes back for the yr and either put on 1 shot or split between 2 depending how much is called for.That is for alfalfa so no N is needed.


Here, we generally apply after each cutting...(x4) but we have sandy loam and N doesn't hang around long.
Buddy, 
I think what you were referring to in Mr Wilsons post was the amount of K that was pulled off the field after each harvest and the need to replenish the K at each fertilization. While my pocketbook may not always allow me to do that, that's what I try to do....my target is 400-400 I usually apply 380-300 because that's what the blend my co-op uses pencils out to. But that varies, late in the season, and we think we can squeak out another cut, we might just spin some AN and be done with it....pocketbook is generally dismissed by that time 

Bear in mind, a lot of people "cheat" in regards to K...it promotes deep roots and during a drought, it becomes apparent....


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## hcriddle

Thanks Dawg, you are exactly right. It was K not N. I agree that sometimes it is just not in the budget. I have used up quite a bit of savings just getting to this point and my sweet bride of 33 years would like to start seeing something come back before I spend a whole lot more.

You helped me out on the N. I was looking at the soil reports from 2014 through this year and noticed that the N never got above 2ppm. I was wondering if that was because it is used up so fast or maybe I was doing something wrong. Looks like it just never gets built up.

You threw some new numbers at me though. Help me understand the 400-400, 380-300 numbers. What does that refer to?

Lord has blessed us and the only thing I have had to finance is the equipment so hopefully here in a few years I will be back on her good side! She is a city girl and has really been a good sport about all this farming idea. If I can get the hay sales to make the payments on equipment and the barn I am building I will be happy.


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## nhbaler282

For bermuda grass A&M always recomends 4-1-3 pounds per hundred dry weight of hay removed. Clear as mud?


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## hcriddle

nhbaler282 said:


> For bermuda grass A&M always recomends 4-1-3 pounds per hundred dry weight of hay removed. Clear as mud?


This one I understand!


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## 506

Buddy - I've gotten mixed messages from our local feed stores on application rates. Some say split, some don't. My place is completely black dirt. I apply the recommended rate from TAMU at the start of the year for the production numbers I target. If needed I follow up with the 100#/acre of N as they recommend. This seems to work for me. My experience is that our mid summer drought weather pattern makes it hard to get fertilizer watered in after a June/July cut.

My application rate numbers are high like yours. The spreader is throwing a sheet of material out behind it.


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## hcriddle

Thanks Darren, I agree after June it would be a tough task to get any watered in. I think I am going to go ahead and put it all out with the next rain. Did you get my email I sent back to you?


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## somedevildawg

hcriddle said:


> Thanks Dawg, you are exactly right. It was K not N. I agree that sometimes it is just not in the budget. I have used up quite a bit of savings just getting to this point and my sweet bride of 33 years would like to start seeing something come back before I spend a whole lot more.
> 
> You threw some new numbers at me though. Help me understand the 400-400, 380-300 numbers. What does that refer to..


My recommendation for yearly totals are 400# to acre of actual N (or units  ) and 400# of K
Because of the blend you may have available, you may not get those exact numbers, just close...unless you have it blended just for you....


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## hcriddle

somedevildawg said:


> My recommendation for yearly totals are 400# to acre of actual N (or units  ) and 400# of K
> Because of the blend you may have available, you may not get those exact numbers, just close...unless you have it blended just for you....


OK now I see. Just a little slow on the uptake at times, :huh:


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## hcriddle

Well based on the new soil tests I put out 8T of 29-20-4. I probably should have gotten a different blend for each field but I was pressed for time to get it in ahead of the rain. Shredded everything and put it out Saturday and finished up about 5pm. Got close to an inch of rain on Sunday.

Next move is to get the herbicide out when weeds start to pop up in the next few days,

Dawg, I pulled my hat down over my ears and am holding on tight like you said!


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## PaMike

Just got nailed $497/ton for 46-0-0 (Urea). Seams awefull high compared to what others were paying...


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## Lewis Ranch

Dang that would almost pay decent to truck it up there


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## Swv.farmer

That was 2015 prices tell them the price has went down they need to Che k in and look at the market


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## PaMike

Yeah, Kinda pissed. My salesman never came around this year to do prepay. I figured I didnt care since prices were down, then they hit me with that price...


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## hcriddle

I paid $383/ton for that 29-20-4


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## endrow

[quote name="PaMike" post="667529" timestamp="1491268039"]Just got nailed $497/ton for 46-0-0 (Urea). Seams awefull high compared to what others were paying...[/quote Yes it does seem almost $100 High, or did the price go up. Some people were saying the price could go up


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## Vol

The last Urea I bought was $389 a few weeks ago....heck, I bought Triple 19 for $417 about a month ago.

Regards, Mike


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## PaMike

@Endrow, Where is the best place to get fertilizer down here? I have been dealing with Chemgro, but getting real tired of the B.S....and high prices... I know Martin Ag and FH Kreider both sell but they are farther away...


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## somedevildawg

hcriddle said:


> Well based on the new soil tests I put out 8T of 29-20-4. I probably should have gotten a different blend for each field but I was pressed for time to get it in ahead of the rain. Shredded everything and put it out Saturday and finished up about 5pm. Got close to an inch of rain on Sunday.
> 
> Next move is to get the herbicide out when weeds start to pop up in the next few days,
> 
> Dawg, I pulled my hat down over my ears and am holding on tight like you said!


The Tift 85 will be the last to really start going but once it gets hot, like 80's at night.....go outside and listen real good, I believe you can hear it growing


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## Tim/South

For our Bermuda here, we need to return 30 lbs. of K for every ton of hay we remove.

Our Extension Agent told me last year that K would volatilize to some degree (not as quick as N). I had always been under the impression that K was stable and put it out in advance so it had time to work into the soil. I believe in paying forward on K vs. playing catch up.

I figure 8 tons of hay per acre per year so I put 240 lb. per of K per acre, per year to return what I will remove.

I put the K out in my first two applications, hopefully before a rain.

My third round of fertilize is N only.

The amount of N I have blended depends on how much hay I want to make and how much is in the piggy bank. Bermuda needs and loves N&K.

We seldom need to add much P here.


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## PaMike

Just called another local place for Urea. They quoted me $390/ton, almost $100 less per ton than what I had paid at the other place. Price included a $70/ton upcharge to add Agrotain to the Urea. I didnt realized Agrotain was that expensive...


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## Lewis Ranch

$30 ton here for nfix which is Helena argotain


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## vhaby

Tim/South said:


> For our Bermuda here, we need to return 30 lbs. of K for every ton of hay we remove.
> 
> Our Extension Agent told me last year that K would volatilize to some degree (not as quick as N). I had always been under the impression that K was stable and put it out in advance so it had time to work into the soil. I believe in paying forward on K vs. playing catch up.
> 
> I figure 8 tons of hay per acre per year so I put 240 lb. per of K per acre, per year to return what I will remove.
> 
> I put the K out in my first two applications, hopefully before a rain.
> 
> My third round of fertilize is N only.
> 
> The amount of N I have blended depends on how much hay I want to make and how much is in the piggy bank. Bermuda needs and loves N&K.
> 
> We seldom need to add much P here.


K volatilization is a new one on me. Don't believe it. In order to volatilize, K would need to turn into a gas, and that doesn't happen. K, or rather KCl which is called potash, is the normal form in which K is applied. K does leach slowly, contrary to what some specialists may tell you.


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## vhaby

nhbaler282 said:


> For bermuda grass A&M always recomends 4-1-3 pounds per hundred dry weight of hay removed. Clear as mud?


I regret to inform you that you are quoting outdated information. The hybrid bermidagrasses need to be fertilized with a 4-1-5 ratio of N-P2 O5 -K2 O if these nutrients are deficient in your soils. The 4-1-3 recommendation is not putting out sufficient potash for sustained bermudagrass production.


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## Tim/South

vhaby said:


> K volatilization is a new one on me. Don't believe it. In order to volatilize, K would need to turn into a gas, and that doesn't happen. K, or rather KCl which is called potash, is the normal form in which K is applied. K does leach slowly, contrary to what some specialists may tell you.


Thank you.


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