# Sound Thinking ?



## chaded (May 13, 2018)

First of all, hello. I've lurked for a bit and finally decided to make a post.

Here is my situation, my wife and I bought this farm last fall. 257 acres with around 200 of it wooded, 30 acre hayfield and the rest in pasture with probably 20 acres being actual grass and not brush. I'm in the process of having a couple old, falling down barns torn down and a new one put up and basically getting my ducks in a row before I bring my own cattle here.

Currently, we are renting the pasture out to someone to graze with cattle so it doesn't get overgrown and I am having him cut the hay on halves. The thing is, when I just got my quote for fertilizer and do the math, it is going to cost me 35-40 a bale even though I am not lifting much of a finger to bale it.

I can buy the same quality hay for that price and so I got to thinking, maybe I would be better off turning the 30 acre hayfield into pasture and running a little more cattle and just buying my hay. This gives me 50 acres of pasture instead of 20. I'm thinking that I might not have a choice either way since I want to have more cattle then what I feel the current 20 acre pasture can handle. I just want to make sure I'm not crazy?


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## MrLuggs (Dec 14, 2015)

I guess it depends how well the fields were taken care of by the previous owner, your fertilizer bill could be high because they mined it and there needs to be a lot replenished in the soil. If they were, your costs will be higher this year, but going forward it will be more reasonably priced.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

If you are just looking for cow hay, and you are in a farming area, my bet would be that 9 out of 10 years you can buy hay cheaper than you can produce it. Now if you needed prime horse hay or prime dairy alfalfa that could be a different story. I ENJOY making hay, so I make and feed all my own hay. But if I really want to try to make some money I would sell all my hay equipment, feed twice as many animals, and buy my hay in...

Round bales of cow hay are cheap, at least in my neck of the woods.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Here's the trade-off: Hay costs in the range of $100-160/ton to produce depending on the crop, yield and weather.. Depending on the year, you can make or loose on hay (of course, the same is true of cattle).

Put a pencil to paper and figure out the cross-over point for your hay usage vs production costs. E.g, figure production hay cost vs hay usage vs heads of cattle.

In SE Ohio, you'll have a longer pasture season that someone further north, like Michigan, so your hay needs will be lower. And your growing season will be longer meaning that you could get more hay/acre with a good fertilizer and crop management program.

And, of course, figure supply and demand: When hay is in short supply (priced high), cattle prices will drop (people downsize their herd).

Just a few thoughts......

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

chaded said:


> The thing is, when I just got my quote for fertilizer and do the math, it is going to cost me 35-40 a bale even though I am not lifting much of a finger to bale it.


Did you see the fertilizer receipt? Did the person who gave you the "quote" do a soil sample? What was the blend that was put down?

Most years you could buy your hay probably cheaper as PaMike stated.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Seems high,especially if 4 x 5 bales.

For me fertilizer runs about $20-25 per ton of hay produced.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

If you’re going to have beef cows I agree you will be able to buy cow hay cheaper especially if you buy it all in the summer when it’s being made. I think part of the key to it is buying in summer before hay gets in short supply. I would love to have a guy to sell my not horse quality hay to .


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## chaded (May 13, 2018)

MrLuggs said:


> I guess it depends how well the fields were taken care of by the previous owner, your fertilizer bill could be high because they mined it and there needs to be a lot replenished in the soil. If they were, your costs will be higher this year, but going forward it will be more reasonably priced.


You have a good point, the field has not been fertilized regularly by the previous owners.


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## chaded (May 13, 2018)

Vol said:


> Did you see the fertilizer receipt? Did the person who gave you the "quote" do a soil sample? What was the blend that was put down?
> 
> Most years you could buy your hay probably cheaper as PaMike stated.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I took the soil sample myself and got the quote myself. I haven't got to fertilize yet because we have been getting rain storms more days than not the past week or so. It is close to $140 an acre for fertilizer and lime but the lime isn't very much.


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## chaded (May 13, 2018)

farmerbrown said:


> If you're going to have beef cows I agree you will be able to buy cow hay cheaper especially if you buy it all in the summer when it's being made. I think part of the key to it is buying in summer before hay gets in short supply. I would love to have a guy to sell my not horse quality hay to .


Yeah, beef cows. My thinking is that the hayfield will benefit me more as a pasture then hayfield. It doesn't pay for me to buy hay making equipment so I will be stuck with only getting half of my hay on shares or pay someone to make all of it for me and then pay for fertilizer. Also, I will always be limited to the 20 acre pasture I have as far as number of cows I can have.

Around here I can get the same quality hay from 20-35 dollars a bale.


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

Use it as pasture you can keep twice as many cows don't have to have hay equipment.
Find you a good hay supplier and buy your hay off after ever year and even in the short years he may not hit you as hard as he does hay shoppers.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Here is a link to a spreadsheet by the USDA that you can (have to if you want to use it) download it has input fields for "Hay production vs. Hay purchase decision support tool". It is as its name implies.

http://bit.ly/2GGk2un.

I agree with Cy (swmnhay) that fertilizer costs @$25 per ton of hay ($25.20 for me last year not inclusive of N). I also understand how it costs YOU @25 per bale if you are paying the whole fertilizer bill and only getting 1/2 the hay...spot insight on your part for 1000lb bales.

If you are fertilizing, I would not do a 50/50 deal. The way I see it, the landowner gets 1/3, the producer gets 1/3, and fertilizer is its own 1/3. With that logic, I produce hay on 50/50 if we SHARE the fert bill; if I (the producer) fertilize, I get 2/3. If you are landowner AND fertilizing payer, you should negotiate for 2/3. ...not trying to run your farm, that's just what I would do and merely a suggestion.

Mark

EDIT: pay attention to the link's spreadsheet as there are various tabs at the bottom for different forages. Also, if you don't have microsoft, it can be opened with openoffice.org which is a free download that I use....they don't charge and are only there to be a thorn in the side of microsoft.


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## chaded (May 13, 2018)

glasswrongsize said:


> Here is a link to a spreadsheet by the USDA that you can (have to if you want to use it) download it has input fields for "Hay production vs. Hay purchase decision support tool". It is as its name implies.
> 
> http://bit.ly/2GGk2un.
> 
> ...


Good post. And your right, I am figuring for the total cost of the fertilizer with only getting half the hay. Around here people will do halves with the landowner whether you fertilize or not but they aren't doing it. If they fertilizer it (some don't want to) they want 2/3 which I understand but the problem with that is I need more than a third of the hay.


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

Depending on how many cattle you would get and how you manage the pastures you may be able to harvest some 1st crop off of some pastures, just hire it done and get all the hay, and then turn the cows on it the rest of the year.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

chaded said:


> Good post. And your right, I am figuring for the total cost of the fertilizer with only getting half the hay. Around here people will do halves with the landowner whether you fertilize or not but they aren't doing it. If they fertilizer it (some don't want to) they want 2/3 which I understand but the problem with that is I need more than a third of the hay.


You are right with a caveat/variable. 1/2 of unfertilized hay may be less than 1/3 of fertilized hay.

I am not big-time (or even medium for that matter) and I have almost as many different agreements as I have landlords (doing @100 acres in 17 fields with 9 different landowners). In a case of one of my fields, the landowner fertilizes (and is allowed to pasture it as needed which impacts yield greatly). In that case, I have a "floating" agreement. I (the producer) get a minimum # of bales (I calculate this based upon my cost to mow, ted once, rake and bale and I know that I need @1.27 bales per acre to break even after paying labor, fuel, depreciation, etc...). down to 1/3 of the bales. Meaning, if it is 10 acres that only makes 20 bales , I still get 12.7 bales (which is in excess of 1/3, but covers my production costs). If the same 10 acres makes 60 bales, I get 20 (this is over my minimum to cover production, but not over the 1/3.

A good fertilized field will produce MUCH cheaper hay than a field that has been mined and produces minimally.

As an example, I have a field that I kept numbers on and began fertilizing; it is in small bales. Fert cost is $.63 per bale on small bales...by the time I was able to spread the cost of cutting, raking and tedding over more bales, it actually lowered the cost (per bale) by $1.08...the fertilizer paid back its own cost of $.63 and realized another $.45 in savings due to increased yield per acre.

If you can find a producer that realizes per-acre cost to him to produce the hay, he will gladly let you fertilize and also let you realize the payoff from the fertilizer. Someone that won't recognize that the party paying for fertilizer gets a bigger share either is taking advantage of a good deal or doesn't like "running the numbers" like I do.

If you wanted to do easy-figures, find out what the producer's half was the past few years (average out for rainfall differences from year to year etc) and offer that he continues to get THAT number of bales. You will realized (nearly) the total difference of fertilizer application in such an agreement.

gotta have a flexible knife to skin some cats.

Mark

...and some cats can NOT be skinned at all. Had one landowner that thought math was voodoo; as I was starting VERY simple trying to explain some math (trying to sell him on either fertilizing or allowing me to fertilize) , I said "if we do halves and we get 200 bales, I get a hundred and you get a hundred, right?" his eyes glazed over and said "I ain't good at math; I don't like technology." I didn't know that math was "technology", but I can't make his field work for me...it's a shame, it is the flattest, squarest and one of the biggest fields I had.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

chaded said:


> Yeah, beef cows. My thinking is that the hayfield will benefit me more as a pasture then hayfield. It doesn't pay for me to buy hay making equipment so I will be stuck with only getting half of my hay on shares or pay someone to make all of it for me and then pay for fertilizer. Also, I will always be limited to the 20 acre pasture I have as far as number of cows I can have.
> 
> Around here I can get the same quality hay from 20-35 dollars a bale.


Here is a link to a different post that I responded to. Different circumstance but my response could apply to your situation.

https://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/88226-looking-to-make-balage-with-64-pto-hp-kubota-m7060/


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I've done hay on shares and split fertilizer bill with land owner.You both benefit from it equally when baled 50-50 so the bill should be split 50-50 also.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Do not apply the recommended amount of fertilize in one application. The recommended amounts of each number in the blend is for the year. Put out too much and you will lose some to leaching and volatilization.

Spreading it out over 2 cuttings will increase yield and lower the $ per bale.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Mark and Cy's numbers are spot on regarding fertilizer cost in MY area also ($20-25 a ton or $0.63 per small square bale).

If you decide to just pasture, you might want to consider rotational grazing. It takes some labor, but the benefits could easily outway the costs. This might even leave a possible cutting of hay available.

Larry


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

Hey Tim/South, good to see you back. How are you doing?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

paoutdoorsman said:


> Hey Tim/South, good to see you back. How are you doing?


Better. Typing takes forever. I spend a lot of time reading and clicking the Like button. Neurologist said 6 months in the left hand.


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