# Whats the future look like for New Holland/CNH?



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

New Holland was founded 20 minutes from me. The engineering and hay tools plant is still in operation there. This is/was NH hay equipment territory through and through. New Holland skidsteers were on virtually every farm. It seams since Fiat took over the deal things have really been going south. Their 200 series skidsteers that came out in 2011 were a disaster. That left many farmers in the area going to another brand. I have an engineer friend in the combine group. He said it feels like Fiat is just trying to blead it dry.

In the past I would have only considered NH hay equipment but I am really having second thoughts about that attitude. Maybe all the other players stepped up their game and are giving NH a run for their money because it just doesnt seam like NH has a hands down better product like it used to be...

Then there is the spare parts, which got me thinking about this today...I bought a brand new knotter back in 2004 for $470 dollars. A year later we junked the baler and I kept the knotter. Neighbor just broke a knotter frame. I told him I have a complete knotter with less than 2K bales through it. I didnt know how much to ask for the knotter so I looked up a new price. $850 for a new knotter! Now I understand inflation but I also know that there have been a lot on advances in CNC manufacturing that have driven down costs. Inflation is one thing, but double the price in 10 years? Good grief...


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

As a machinist, there really has not been that many advancements in CNCs. Now tooling on the other hand yes and no. It has always been dependent on the material lot. I made valve bodies, manifolds, fittings, yadda yadda and so on. To put it short it is corporate greed that has run the price up. Depending on the part, I made the company anywhere from $60-$800 an hour, I was not paid near that much.

I bought a part one time I could have easily made, it was just a bolt made out of square stock about 2 inches long, threads and a cone at the tip. It costed me $19 at the dealer, I was livid. It would take me ten minutes manually to setup and finish. A screw machine would spit it out in 5-6 seconds on the production run.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I should add, I DID NOT work at New Holland. Now that part was from New Holland.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Could be, I know a lot of folks have went from a NH BB to a Massey/Heston and wouldn't go back.

Another thing I've really noticed as late, doesn't seem like NH wants to develop their own product, they buy their tedders and rotary rakes from foreign manufacturers and paint em NH colors.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have thought a lot about NH here the last couple of years....it seems(don't know for a fact) that the overwhelming majority of questions on equipment repair anymore is about NH. This is not meant as a flame...just something to ponder. All equipment needs repair at some point, but it just seems that NH is not up to snuff anymore. I cannot help but think about their latest trouble with the new large mowers....which were obviously released before thorough testing. I think it is the world that we now live in...

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Fiat has been known for 50 years for producing crap. I had a Fiat car back in the 1970's that was junk, i.e., J-U-N-K! Bought it brand new to replace a 1972 Ford Maverick, the only car that was worse than the Fiat as far a being crap (ever had your brake master cylinder fail while you were driving because of a casting defect? Scary!!)

There has been a Harvard MBA business practice of buying successful companies that are profitable, cutting costs and quality to the bone to raise net profit, bleeding the company, then dumping the remains. I've seen this happen way too many times to think it was a coincidence.

This is probably what Fiat is doing.

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, just a look from the other side- FIAT owns Chrysler.
How does everyone like their Dodge trucks and Chrysler cars?


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Fiat--Fix It Again Tomorrow.

Time will tell. Most equipment makers are in the business of separating you from your money. I have worked with a D1000 NH big square and several of the BR series round balers, and have come to the opinion that while the design principles that the machines are based on are for the most part excellent, it is the execution of the designs that is lacking, in a variety of ways.

Some things that happened at the CNH merger did not impress me. At that time CIH sold off the legacy MAXXUM line of tractors and replaced it with a red version of the NH TM series. I own both an MX MAXXUM and an NH TM. The TM is a decent tractor, but it is a cheaper machine, in many ways. It would appear that the current MAXXUM line is an evolution of the TM series NH.

CNH has also parted ways entirely with Cummins. Good or bad, I don't know. Maybe some day the FPT labeled engines that CNH uses now will be referred to as Fairly Pathetic Tractors!


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Both NH dealers near me have 1 or 2 blue tractors in a sea of orange ones. Down in these parts NH seems to be fading from sight. and being replaced by Kubota. CIH isn't doing much better either.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Around here the NH dealer is getting a bad reputation on repairs. Either not fixing the problems, but yet charging huge amounts for them. Or outright saying they don't know what the problem is. The other is not as willing to let a person try out a tractor. I had another thread where I was going to demo/rent a tractor for ripping. I asked my NH dealer about something like that. Got an outright no!. Asked my MF dealer and they are actually bringing in a tractor from a dealer branch 75 miles away for me to try even though I have said I'm not going to buy one this year. Maybe they want it here anyways, but still makes me feel nice. Will let me demo for 10 hours free and then rent for $50 an hour after that. I even told the guy don't go through that much trouble for me, but he is almost insisting. So in a year or 2 when I do want to buy I know what tractor I will consider more. One I've tried. The MF. Also our 2008 NH has had a number of little annoying problems that would keep me from buying a NH again. John Deere is still the #1 tractor around as always. But I think MF is gaining and NH and CIH (same dealer) is kind of at a standstill. Also a few weeks ago I think Vol posted something about NH saying that their big square balers will tell the tractor to speed up if the baler isn't full enough. Talking to the neighbor the other day who has a MF somenumber that is maybe 3 years old. It does the same thing with his older Hesston baler. And here I thought NH was coming up with something new. And like Mike120 says in his area I think it similar here. Of the smaller tractors on the lot there is alot of orange compared to blue and no red.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Teslan said:


> Around here the NH dealer is getting a bad reputation on repairs. Either not fixing the problems, but yet charging huge amounts for them. Or outright saying they don't know what the problem is. The other is not as willing to let a person try out a tractor. I had another thread where I was going to demo/rent a tractor for ripping. I asked my NH dealer about something like that. Got an outright no!. Asked my MF dealer and they are actually bringing in a tractor from a dealer branch 75 miles away for me to try even though I have said I'm not going to buy one this year. Maybe they want it here anyways, but still makes me feel nice. Will let me demo for 10 hours free and then rent for $50 an hour after that. I even told the guy don't go through that much trouble for me, but he is almost insisting. So in a year or 2 when I do want to buy I know what tractor I will consider more. One I've tried. The MF. Also our 2008 NH has had a number of little annoying problems that would keep me from buying a NH again. John Deere is still the #1 tractor around as always. But I think MF is gaining and NH and CIH (same dealer) is kind of at a standstill. Also a few weeks ago I think Vol posted something about NH saying that their big square balers will tell the tractor to speed up if the baler isn't full enough. Talking to the neighbor the other day who has a MF somenumber that is maybe 3 years old. It does the same thing with his older Hesston baler. And here I thought NH was coming up with something new. And like Mike120 says in his area I think it similar here. Of the smaller tractors on the lot there is alot of orange compared to blue and no red.


The local NH dealer here has an Amish as head mechanic here. The only thing good about ours is the parts department as long as you get the right guy. They always seem to have the parts in house.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> The local NH dealer here has an Amish as head mechanic here. The only thing good about ours is the parts department as long as you get the right guy. They always seem to have the parts in house.


Well Amish people in general aren't known for working on or using mechanical equipment with engines so maybe that is a problem?  The same is true with the NH parts department here. Depends one what guy you get. Though the MF dealer is nearly always as good.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Teslan said:


> Well Amish people in general aren't known for working on or using mechanical equipment with engines so maybe that is a problem?  The same is true with the NH parts department here. Depends one what guy you get. Though the MF dealer is nearly always as good.


Come to PA sometime. The Amish know their engines.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

PaMike said:


> New Holland was founded 20 minutes from me. The engineering and hay tools plant is still in operation there. This is/was NH hay equipment territory through and through. New Holland skidsteers were on virtually every farm. It seams since Fiat took over the deal things have really been going south. Their 200 series skidsteers that came out in 2011 were a disaster. That left many farmers in the area going to another brand. I have an engineer friend in the combine group. He said it feels like Fiat is just trying to blead it dry.
> In the past I would have only considered NH hay equipment but I am really having second thoughts about that attitude. Maybe all the other players stepped up their game and are giving NH a run for their money because it just doesnt seam like NH has a hands down better product like it used to be...
> Then there is the spare parts, which got me thinking about this today...I bought a brand new knotter back in 2004 for $470 dollars. A year later we junked the baler and I kept the knotter. Neighbor just broke a knotter frame. I told him I have a complete knotter with less than 2K bales through it. I didnt know how much to ask for the knotter so I looked up a new price. $850 for a new knotter! Now I understand inflation but I also know that there have been a lot on advances in CNC manufacturing that have driven down costs. Inflation is one thing, but double the price in 10 years? Good grief...


It's not just the Fiat thing...

We ran blue tractors all the way back to the fifties... They were cheap and their parts were the cheapest around. Our last two tractors were 5610S's that we bought just before and just after the New Holland takeover/buyout of Ford. One is labeled "Ford" with a smaller New Holland sticker, the year or two newer one has no "Ford" sticker on it at all...

I talked to some folks over the years and I heard some interesting stories. Apparently, the Ford/New Holland buyout wasn't a smooth transition. Ford had the tractor division, New Holland built the combines, hay equipment, and other stuff like skiddies... When New Holland took over the operation, they and Ford did not part amicably...

Apparently Ford demanded and got that they not use the Ford name on anything anymore. Ford had the parts distribution network, and didn't come to agreement for New Holland to use it, so New Holland had to go to Caterpillar and pay them to do their parts distribution for a few years til they got their own distribution network set up and running. Of course, Caterpillar didn't do that for free, so the price of parts went through the roof... (Caterpillar has an excellent parts network, BUT, as anybody who buys Cat yellow parts will attest, they certainly charge for it!) Once New Holland got their system up and running, they kept the premium "Cat influenced" prices on the parts...

Ford had, over the years, sold a lot of Ford branded equipment that was manufactured by various shortline companies-- companies like Dearborn, Kelly, Claas (Ford combines), Gehl (round balers), Danuser (post hole diggers), etc. New Holland has "frozen out" parts for all these shortlines because they more or less refuse to get support parts for them.

New Holland parts are now as expensive, and in some cases, more expensive than Deere or Case IH... which sort of negates the reason for running New Holland stuff...

Then of course there was the Case/New Holland merger-- Case-IH was perpetually mismanaged for decades. I can't see that things have gotten any better now on that score...

The Fiat stuff is just the icing on the cake.

I know our NH dealer in Shiner isn't even hardly carrying any NH tractors anymore. They got rid of their lower priced line, tractors like the 5610S, and only wanted to sell the much pricier TN and TS type tractors, and now cab tractors. The Shiner area is full of tight Germans, and they want a lower price tractor, so he's started selling Mahindras. He keeps a couple of the cab New Hollands on the lot, but he's not moving any. He also told me that they're a nightmare from a maintenance and repair standpoint. Gotta pull the cab off for hydraulic repairs and stuff like that...

Heck other than round balers and a few rakes, he's not selling much of anything New Holland... he even stocks Kuhn mowers and speedrakes and stuff... no New Holland mowers at all..

New Holland doesn't have the market cornered on round balers, either, not in our area... I'd say it's a fairly even split between New Holland, Deere, and Vermeer, with a few red machines (Hesston, CaseIH, and even some Gehls) thrown into the mix...

If I were buying new, I think I'd be looking at Deere for most things. We got burned by Case IH not supporting their parts for older cotton pickers years ago, and switched to Deere pickers. Deere backs up their older stuff with parts... they might be pricey, but if you cannot get them, you end up with a lawn ornament suitable only for scrapping out... I don't need that. If Case IH doesn't think enough of their machinery to back it up with parts support, then screw them... WHY would I want to buy a "newer" old machine that they'll then subsequently freeze out for lack of parts in a few years?? Screw 'em, I'll buy Deere because they'll back up their older equipment with parts support.

I DO think New Holland has the best design on disk hay mowers though...

Later! OL JR


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Sounds like I bought the right color hay equipment.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

IMHO - Deere, Agco/MF and CaseIH/New Holland new equipment can be a crap shoot - based on what I read. Shabby quality, crappy dealers, mega dealers, lousy parts support, electrical bugs and on and on.

IMHO - each has good and bad equipment. Hard to know on tractors which is a good new machine off the lot with the new tier 4 final tractors. On this forum, we read of over heating issues, elsewhere electrical problems and on and on.

But......

If I were to buying new tractors and equipment, I'd forget about color and look at the track record of a piece of equipment. Something new, but with a tried and true design - you fill in the blank. If there is such a thing, quality, attentive dealer support. Then price. How could you go wrong?

As for New Holland's fate going forward, I don't think they are going anywhere - maybe just another owner. Don't know much about their tractors, but have read some good things about the T4.75 type tractors. I feel their hay equipment is good and so plentiful in the market place that parts ought to be available for a long time.

This is probably a Micky Mouse thing, but one if the things I especially like about New Holland is their parts and manuals website. Being able to download pdf's of hay equipment and order downloadable pdf manuals has been great.

Just some opinions - by no means an expert.

Bill


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

It's them damn smurf colored seats that I can't get used to......I hope my new 450 rollabelt doesn't turn out to be a lemon.....already had a few problems and the dealer was of basically no help whatsoever.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

My dealer seems to make otherwise above average grade NH equipment seem much better


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I know new holland needs a shift kick in the cajones, have a slight vibration in the PTO on my BR740A, took it apart and have the teeniest bit of play in the constant velocity joint at the tractor end, just for a new tube, a body and the yoke is almost $2000, for almost $3k I can have a whole new shaft, for $713 I can order a brand new Bondioli & Pavesi shaft off the web. Drivelines is the specialty of this business and they even list the balers each one will fit.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Mlappin, I think you looked up the wrong shaft. You apparently looked up the shafts with the cut out clutch instead of the regular slip clutch. While it is still expensive at 1500.00 for the complete shaft it is not as bad as 3000.00. The cut out clutch shafts are probably much heavier duty also.

I am sure you can buy aftermarket shafts for less money, but be sure it meets the same specs not just that it will fit.

The thing I find about pto shaft vibration is at some point the three point hitch made contact with the shaft slightly bending them. I think you take off your arms so this may not apply but it is a common cause for vibration. Worn tractor pto shafts also affect vibration.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Just got to checking, the web pto drive shaft is the same brand as what came with the baler, so screw you NH.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

mike10 said:


> Mlappin, I think you looked up the wrong shaft. You apparently looked up the shafts with the cut out clutch instead of the regular slip clutch. While it is still expensive at 1500.00 for the complete shaft it is not as bad as 3000.00. The cut out clutch shafts are probably much heavier duty also.
> 
> I am sure you can buy aftermarket shafts for less money, but be sure it meets the same specs not just that it will fit.
> 
> The thing I find about pto shaft vibration is at some point the three point hitch made contact with the shaft slightly bending them. I think you take off your arms so this may not apply but it is a common cause for vibration. Worn tractor pto shafts also affect vibration.


Could be, but the web price is still half as much as NH.

The baler has never ran behind a tractor with lift arms since I've owned it.

I've already checked the stub shaft in my baling tractor, probably the best looking 540 stub I have on the farm, but I'm still gonna order a new one and try it as I threw two others away today that were completely shot.

Must be a high wear item if they offer reman PTO shafts.

Just noticed I have a touch over 16,000 bales on it, might be time to look at trading it off since I've replaced a bearing last year and another this year on the rollers. Seriously thinking about a Vermeer but have practically zero dealer support in my area while I have three NH dealers all with a 90 minute drive.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

It's not just NH it's all the manufactures I think. I will buy a NH discbine or haybine but that is the only NH equipment I'll buy. Same goes with Deere, I'll only buy there balers, of course we have Deere tractors but they're 6020 and 7020 series and they're hard to beat. I don't know what is going to happen when we have to replace them because I believe a new M or R Deere won't have the longevity. 
If they're gonna make this equipment where it doesn't last long at least make the stuff a little less expensive geez.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

JD probably has the most insightful observation on the problem. It does not matter how good the product is if the after sales support is not there.

New Holland is not the same company it was back in 1972 when I first got involved with the brand. Having said that, we also did not have the complicated equipment that we do now. I do not think they have any more problems than any other manufacturer. At least the last time I drove past a John Deere dealer they had a massive shop and I do not believe all the mechanics were polishing equipment.

The problem all arises from the fact the mfg's are competing in a dwindling market. How many of your neighbors have stopped farming in the last 10, 20 or 30 years. Competition breeds innovation and advancement in the product features. It also is too much of a temptation to bring new products out as fast as possible. Some products are brought to the market before they are fully vetted. That is nothing new. It has been going on as long as I can remember. If you are old enough you can remember in the early 60's when Ford took all the 6000 tractors back in to basically rebuild them. I know the other brands have had similar experiences with different products.

So what does it take to be a dealer like JD has? Simple, money. Since we have been in the business a long time we have been able to gradually grow to a point we want to be at. If someone was wanting to get into this business at our SMALLl size they better have 3 to 5 million dollars available to draw from. Want to be a bigger dealer? Just increase the millions. As has been noted in the above posts, parts are expensive and yes some are just plain crazy, but the dealer has to buy the parts first before they can sell them to you. You expect the dealer to have the parts on the shelf when needed but he also has the parts on the shelf that have not moved and are no longer returnable. Send them back before that happens is the correct answer to that problem, but that leads to another problem. No parts on the shelf when needed. All the manufactures are pushing their dealers to be more profitable. One of the ways to accomplish this is by turning (selling) the parts on the shelf multiple times a year. Most want you to turn your parts 2 to 3 times a year and if you do not achieve that turn on a particular part then you need to return the part and not stock the part. We are actually penalized for not reaching that goal. We believe in stocking parts, but at the same time we do not try and sell every brand or model under the sun. I have heard of dealers using a turn of 5 times before they will stock the part. Inventory is an expensive investment.

Employees are supposed to be your greatest asset and some are but many are just a pain in the you know what. Keeping good employees is difficult since we do not have any indentured servants any more. A dealer invests a lot of money in training and tools but if you have a high turn over of employees it all goes down the drain. The closest Deere dealer has had a tremendous loss of experienced mechanics. So what do they replace them with? Youth and inexperience. Don't get me wrong, I was as inexperienced as anyone else at one time, but we did not have the complicated equipment we do now. You may think there have been a lot of posts about troubles with NH equipment but so many are for the same problem and the problems are not that serious or complicated, but if you lack any experience then coming up with the answer is not always easy. I have thought over the last couple of months on writing down and posting solutions for many of these problems brought up here but unless the people know how to find the information it will do little good.

I find it funny that people will post here first about their problems before even asking their local dealer about what to do. I think dealers would do themselves a lot of good if they would simply send some one out to the field when the new piece of equipment was being used for the first time. I will not send out a baler without being there to start the customer the first time and to instruct him on the use and upkeep. It eliminates so many future problems and we have much happier customers. I also want to be present when the cutters go to the field and I insist on being there to attach a disc mower to the tractor the first time. You can have carts to make the job easier, but if you just follow a simple routine it is not difficult to attach a disc mower to a tractor. I like to head off problems before they arise.

I have learned that things do not remain the same. When we started with NH it was like dealing with family. There was no such thing as a one year warranty. NH did not have an expiration on warranty. Of course you needed to use good common sense. When Ford bought NH from Sperry the biggest change was the termination of some dealers. Personnel was also cut and there was a loss of knowledge that was hard to replace. Fiat came along when Ford was looking to get out of the farm equipment business and concentrate of the automotive aspect of their business. Not much changed until Fiat bought CaseIH. CaseIH got the better end of the deal since they could sell the red and yellow equipment under their name. Why Fiat chose to go with Cat for parts distribution was simply a money decision. The markup on parts was not the reason. We did not see the big increases in prices until NH started doing the parts distribution themselves and some of that was to help their dealers.

One final observation. I think all mfg's are in a race to the bottom. Importing all these tractors from around the world to see who can come up with the cheapest price. The old adage still applies, You get what you pay for.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yeah, thing I've noticed and this goes to any brand, unless you spend a few hundred K on a new tractor this year and 400,000 on a new combine next year, service departments never seem in a real hurry to get to the small guys, I can see it and understand why this happens, but if your gonna sell and service brand x then you should service brand x whether it was bought new last year or a guys father or grandfather bought it new.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Yeah, thing I've noticed and this goes to any brand, unless you spend a few hundred K on a new tractor this year and 400,000 on a new combine next year, service departments never seem in a real hurry to get to the small guys, I can see it and understand why this happens, but if your gonna sell and service brand x then you should service brand x whether it was bought new last year or a guys father or grandfather bought it new.


I never have really had the problem with any dealer here. Though I have yet to need repairs on the John Deere. The thing is here in Colorado you are a big farmer if you are farming more then 1000 acres. Just because of the irrigation a farm can't be that big. So maybe that's why it's easier to get dealer help here in Northern Colorado because no one is really that "big" No one flips fleets of tractors or equipment every year besides the county. Though I will go back to the MF dealer here which started in 2000. A small dealer compared to the Deere or NH. But good experienced mechanics. A service manager that has been there since the beginning. 2 sales guys that have been there since the beginning.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Mike10 you said a lot of important things. Yes I have a good, albeit small dealer. My NH salesman is excellent and did come out to set up my baler and my discbine. Haven't had any problems with either. My dealer looks like the 70's called and wants their NH dealership back. Lol
I kind of like it that way.

Someone mentioned before that NH subs out rakes and tenders to Knvernland and my rake hasnt been all that great.

I like New Holland, especially when they were combined with Ford or owned by Sperry. I thought they were such an innovative company. Still miss my 1499 SP haybine.
I hope they get better and someday FIAT spins them off.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

You do know what the first words out of the mouth of the BTO's are? I spent 400,000.00 for that piece of equipment and I expect it to work, NOW!

But seriously, so few of the dealers have had that long relationship with the fathers and grandfathers. It all goes back to the diminishing number of farmers. Which farmer is going to be here in 10 years? The young person probably, maybe even dad but probably not grandfather. If the dealer does not take care of the present buyers he can kiss the future good by.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Mike10

I will state that JD isn't the same company it was when I was employed by a JD dealer back in the mid 60's through late 80's. I think from reading about repeat problems that JD tractors are experiencing especially on the utility models that JD is relying on their past sales history & tractor reliability that I think will catch up with them.if they're not careful. I agree with Mike that trying to stock the correct parts & number of parts is very complex and will make the parts manager grey headed. I still remember how I dreaded year end inventory time when we had to count EVERY bolt,nut washer,o-ring plus all the larger parts that were in stock at the dealership. Then get called into owners office when inventory $$$$$ didn't match up. Oh for the good ole days


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

mike10 said:


> You do know what the first words out of the mouth of the BTO's are? I spent 400,000.00 for that piece of equipment and I expect it to work, NOW!
> 
> But seriously, so few of the dealers have had that long relationship with the fathers and grandfathers. It all goes back to the diminishing number of farmers. Which farmer is going to be here in 10 years? The young person probably, maybe even dad but probably not grandfather. If the dealer does not take care of the present buyers he can kiss the future good by.


Oh I know, the nearest Agco dealer around us used to be owned by a different family and they were good people to deal with most of the time, the father was a engineer for White the they were still in South Bend, a veritible well of information.

I still have a few old Olivers that have the dealer sticker on them from the next town over.

All fine and dandy if you can afford almost half a million for a new combine, but if you can't repair it yourself then you should have been in the mindset that you just might have to wait your turn for service. I don't like to be beholden to anybody so the chance of anything new showing up on the farm with a tier 4 engine it is slim to none.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Owning tier 4 equipment is fine as long as you plan on turning it regularly. I look at it as a game of musical chairs. Some where down the line some one is going to get stuck without a chair to support them and end up with a HUGE repair bill for the then older tier 4 equipment.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm just patiently waiting for snowball to chime in here... Who wants popcorn?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

mike10 said:


> Owning tier 4 equipment is fine as long as you plan on turning it regularly. I look at it as a game of musical chairs. Some where down the line some one is going to get stuck without a chair to support them and end up with a HUGE repair bill for the then older tier 4 equipment.


I keep stuff till it's depreciated out then trade up.

If corn yield is decent at all this fall I may have to go thru my depreciation schedule and se if anything needs replaced yet this year.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

mike10 said:


> I think dealers would do themselves a lot of good if they would simply send some one out to the field when the new piece of equipment was being used for the first time. I will not send out a baler without being there to start the customer the first time and to instruct him on the use and upkeep. It eliminates so many future problems and we have much happier customers. I also want to be present when the cutters go to the field and I insist on being there to attach a disc mower to the tractor the first time. You can have carts to make the job easier, but if you just follow a simple routine it is not difficult to attach a disc mower to a tractor. I like to head off problems before they arise.


Having a dealer support the sale (or not support it as the case may be) is nothing new. My dad used to work for the local NH/CIH dealer as a salesman when I was in school. Another local dealer was trying to sell a dairy farmer a new feed mixer (I think it was a Gehl) and just dropped it off saying "Fill it up and let it run. Dump it out when you think it's ready." The guy forgot to tell them to have it running when they filled it and they popped every single shear pin that machine had! Ended up forking it all out by hand.

My dad stopped by the next day with a Knight mixer and the guy almost laughed when my dad said that you didn't need to have it turned on when you filled it and said that my dad would be shoveling it out on his own if it broke. My dad stayed right there while they filled it, made sure it mixed stuff just the way the farmer wanted and ended up with the sale right then and there.

It's also not just the salesmen's side of things that needs to be done right. Another customer bought a new plow and the service department never set it up properly. My dad spent over half a day wrenching on it and by the time he was done, the farmer had picked up 3 gears and the tractor wasn't working nearly as hard. I don't want to even think about how few of the servicemen the dealer has today know how to properly set up a plow.

In my area, I usually go with JD since they have had the best support as far as parts and service (in that order). Parts are pricey, but at least I know I'm getting the right stuff. The service is OK, but I do most of my own work, so that doesn't matter too much. I haven't been to the JD dealer's new store yet (they combined to smaller stores into one bigger one), but I'm hoping that the same support is still there. I don't have a big enough operation to warrant buying any new equipment, but based on the prices the NH/CIH dealer is asking for used stuff, I don't even want to know what the new stuff is running. (Yes, it's the same dealer my dad used to work for, but it has changed a lot since he left ~17 years ago.)


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Colby said:


> (Snip)
> 
> If they're gonna make this equipment where it doesn't last long at least make the stuff a little less expensive geez.


Gee, you are optimistic, aren't ya?? LOL

Pig's will fly and they'll all give us umbrellas before that happens...

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mike10 said:


> JD probably has the most insightful observation on the problem. It does not matter how good the product is if the after sales support is not there.
> 
> New Holland is not the same company it was back in 1972 when I first got involved with the brand. Having said that, we also did not have the complicated equipment that we do now. I do not think they have any more problems than any other manufacturer. At least the last time I drove past a John Deere dealer they had a massive shop and I do not believe all the mechanics were polishing equipment.
> 
> ...


All true...

A few things jump out at me...

There's good and bad dealers in all colors. When the COMPANY doesn't want to support the parts for the older stuff, it tells me that's not a brand I want to mess with. Ford was good about backing all their old parts (to the extent possible) even though most of the Ford blue implements (or Dearborn red) were from shortline manufacturers scattered far and wide, a lot of whom didn't exist anymore. New Holland just gave the blue farmers the finger and said "screw it, we're not backing most of that stuff anymore with parts." Not a great way to engender any brand loyalty for NH IMHO.

Case IH did the same thing with their older cotton pickers 20 years ago-- beyond a certain age, they just refused to support the parts anymore. Their solution-- "Oh, buy a used 782 picker from us!" My thought was, "Why? So you can freeze those out for parts in a few years and then say, "oh, buy a used 1822 or 1844 from us!??" No thanks... went green because they back up their machines, even the "pathetically old ones" with good parts support... a machine without good parts support is going to end up in the fencerow or a lawn ornament some day because of lack of a $1.99 part...

Dealer stock on parts is another big issue. I don't hardly trade with our "local" NH dealer anymore-- NOTHING EVER seemed to be "in stock". I'd order stuff from him, and wait a week... sometimes with stuff on the ground. Been in there more than once when a pallet of stuff came in off the UPS truck-- 3 or 4 parts guys standing around too lazy to break into the pallet and get stuff sorted out and call farmers waiting for parts because it was an hour or so to quitting time. "Bust into the pallet in the morning" they'd say as mechanics would come in and sift through some of it looking for stuff they had ordered. Course it'd be lunchtime the next day before they got it all sorted out by orders and called the farmers to come get the parts; by the time you went and got the stuff, got back to the shop, and got everything back together, that's another day up in smoke... If they're not any more interested in service than that, WHY do I want to trade with them??

Dealer 100 miles west near our other farm, they had more in stock, and when they did have to order something for me, for a long while they would have it shipped direct to my door, which saved me another 100 mile trip up there to pick it up. Course, after a couple years, the company told them they couldn't do that anymore; all parts had to go to them first. Joy...

None of the dealerships seem able to hold on to good mechanics anymore... My brother worked at Eagle Tractor Salvage for seven years, and had a kidney stone and wiped out his savings, and found out the value of insurance. His boss didn't want to get insurance, and despite him straightening out his parts inventory computer system, and keeping it straightened out in spite of the women up front's best efforts (and the numbnut they hired to "help" him) his boss didn't consider it worth his while to offer benefits. SO, he went looking for another job. Interviewed with Deere to come in as a mechanic or parts guy, since he had a lot of experience, but they wanted him to shuttle between stores for about six months, working in a different store every week for six months to a year, with some stores up to 60 miles away or more each way... Oh, and a pay cut. He said "no thanks" and went to work for the county drainage district...

Every time I go into a shop, all I see are a bunch of high school kids fresh out of school turning wrenches, with one "old timer" shuffling around from one bay to the next, checking up on them and telling them what to do next... basically all the brains in the old timers; the kids are generally know-nothings (had one nearly kill himself pressing in a ball bearing for me, despite me telling him he wasn't doing it right, and so I finally said "screw it" and bought myself a press for the shop to do it myself). Considering what they pay, there's a reason for the turnover... the kids stay just long enough to get enough "experience" (time in) to get a better job, and they're off like a shot. Can't say I blame them, either. Don't see shop rates going anywhere but up, either. Not just blue or red doing it either, or green... BIL had a straw walker bust in his 9600 a couple weeks ago, Deere sent their two young "combine gurus" out to swap in a new one. After an hour of pulling about 100 bolts out of the doghouse on the back of the combine, one of them pulls up the stuff on the laptop and tells the other one "hey, we don't have to take the doghouse off the back-- just the rear panel above the chopper-- it tilts and comes out the hole...

Sure inspires confidence for those $90 an hour shop rates! LOL Heck even the shop foreman told them they had to pull the doghouse, evidently. Glad someone actually looked it up in the computer manuals, because with all the bolts out, the weight of the chopper and the mechanic sitting on it up inside the machine nearly ripped it off the back of the machine...

I've gotten to where I stock as many parts for my machines as I can so I don't have to wait on them... to the extent possible... even then, it's a 50/50 proposition... Dealers can't stock everything; I know that and figure most folks do, but it seems to me most of the local dealers didn't want to stock anything for anything over about 5-10 years old, unless it's a part that they sell a half dozen a month of... and don't seem in any rush to get anything when you need it.

The "local" NH dealer 23 miles from us, every time I'd go in for a part, I'd get a lecture on how "that's obsolete" and I should be buying newer machinery... Again, I'm not there for [email protected]$$ing, I'm there to order a part... save the lecture and just order the [email protected] thing already! If they don't want to support the older machines, WHY do I want to buy a newer one that they'll pull the same BS on a few years down the road??

The dealer 100 miles from us, he stocks a lot of "aftermarket" parts for things like driveshafts-- figured I was about to part with some big money on a driveshaft overrun clutch hub for my drum mower, and they sold me the whole new driveshaft with overrun clutch from an aftermarket supplier for about half the cost of just the factory hub for the original... That's the kind of dealer I'm looking for...

Just a few observations I've had, anyway...

Later! OL JR


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

stack em up said:


> I'm just patiently waiting for snowball to chime in here... Who wants popcorn?


I'll take some non buttered,low salt popcorn please. :lol:


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Boy, I really started something here...Dealerships are in a tough spot. I don't thing most of the OEM really value the dealer, so the dealer tries to dance the line between its two customers...

I can hardly believe that an OEM would care or get upset if a dealer stocks a part that doesn't turn over enough. That's another example of the OEM needing to mind its own business. Dealers need the freedom to stock what they feel is important and will sell. If they don't capitalism/free market will take care of things...


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

We stock what we know will sell, or what we think will sell in a matter of time. A dealer can't support every machine made since the beginning of time without help from the OEM parts depot. We have over $2 million in parts for Gleaner combines as that's our bread and butter. We don't stock every part for every machine as we would be out of business just paying interest on parts we MIGHT sell 5 15 or 50 years from now.

Great case in point. We were MNs largest volume dealer for MM D and E corn shellers. We stocked every part for both units. When we remodeled some of our parts dept a few years ago, we ended up selling leftover parts on eBay for a fraction of what we had into them as far as interest paid over the last 40 years.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

That's why JD parts distribution is so effective, the dealer can stock high turn items and let mother Deere stock the other tid bits of gold in their warehouses and still get it to u overnight because their trucks run nonstop up and down the interstate hwy......gonna cost ya for that efficiency tho


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I think all mfg's have the same parts distribution process and is not a JD exclusive, but some dealers will not take advantage of it. The carrier that delivers our NH parts also delivers the JD parts. I know we can order parts up to 7:00 pm EST and have it in front of our door at 6:30 am the next day but there is a cost. I think with NH's breakdown assistance, for big equipment, that the order time can be stretched even farther.

It is not just the mfg's that are pushing for turns on parts inventory but also business consultants that are independent of the mfg's. Too much capital is being unproductive by parts which do not turn. It is in the mfg's interest to make sure their dealer organization is profitable and can be sustained when there are downturns in the industry.

Many parts are made by suppliers for the mfgs. For older equipment some of the original suppliers are no longer in business or they choose to no longer make a part since to make such a small run would be unprofitable or else cause the part to be too expensive to sell.

This talk of popcorn is making me hungry.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

So why is it that OEMs often want more for wear items than an aftermarket supplier? Shoup sells a baler pickup cam bearing for something like $13 less each than NH, I have to think they each get them from the same mfr. The numbers stamped on them are identical. Another thing is PTOs. mlappin is right that you can find an identical replacement through another source for hundreds less than NH wants. These are not parts that will sit on a shelf for years only to be used in the event of a bizarre failure.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I have no idea what the pricing strategy is by oem's. But to compare the overhead of Shoup to that of one of the oem's will give some indication why the parts are higher. Shoup will only stock parts that have a high turnover while you expect the oem's to stock parts for tractors and equipment going back 60 - 70 years or more. That all adds to the cost of all parts. Shoup is not concerned, nor should they be, that you local oem dealer remains profitable and in business. You may not like your dealer but it is still a pain when you no longer have a local dealer.

I am not posting to defend the oem's pricing policies but there is a difference between business's that want only the cream but could care less if about your other part needs.

You also need to be vigilant when purchasing products that "will fit" but not necessarily the same item. I like the analogy of all oil is the same. Would you go and buy 1 qt of the cheapest engine oil at 6 different vendors and put it into your engine?

I have yet to find an aftermarket CV pto shaft that is identical to the oem, Will they fit and work, probably, but you are not buying an identical part.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Weasler is now offering some discbine shafts by application that are OEM identical as far as I know. Bondioli shafts are available for round balers and and some discbine applications as well. I believe them to be same as original.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

We should have a forum that discusses where to buy parts for different farm machines at best possible discounts.

NH parts have gotten ridiculously expensive.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

We used to build some parts when I worked in the machine shop. It was funny because some simple parts could often be built way cheaper than dealer cost. But than again other parts were so cheap (sometimes complex too) that we could not even think of building a new one. As for the fear of the parts not being exactly the same as the original. Yes its true. Often times we would build a better quality part. Stronger steel. Heavier. Sometimes not only did we build the part but we would have the machine there and over haul the weak points on the machine.

I know often when there is a week point on a machine an engineer gets blamed. Dad is an engineer. He says sometimes that is true. But more often than not it is other guys in the company trying to cut costs. There is always a fight between what an engineer designs and what will get approved for the budget. Or what design will be approved.

As for carrying inventory that is tricky. There is the whole model these days to cut costs. But that can go too far. If you dont have what people need when they need it than customers are all of a sudden lost. One example here is the hardware store in town with new owners. They never have anything I need. Used to be a good hardware/farm store. No I dont even bother going there cause its mostly a wasted trip. At the company dad works for. The old owners kept cutting inventory to the point where it broke the company because of lost customers. Now the new owners keep $200 million of inventory. Yes thats right not a typo $200 000 000 at just the one site. With this inventory they have picked up many new customers. Now also at this one site they are about half way through construction of a billion dollar expansion.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

There is no doubt that a good machine shop can save you money. There are however some things that most machine shops can not due and that is harden parts to oem standards. A good example are tractor spindles. You can buy after market spindles considerably cheaper than oems but they lack hardening and will fail in short order with loader work.

The oem's could make better and heavier parts but they also must be competitive with the other mfgs. Having a tank when a light weight nimble vehicle is needed will not help sales.

As for the Bondioli shafts, are they coated with a non stick surface like the oem equipped machines are? Weasler should be able to supply the same shafts since they supply NH but the photos I have seen show different shielding and would be surprised if the shaft were different. I would think NH would have put some stipulations on them selling the EXACT same part. What I want is a shaft where you can go to the oem and buy parts if needed. You do not always need a complete shaft.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

We recently bought 3 gas struts for the CIH 5140, one for the hood latch and one for each cab door for $75 and I think $11 Priority shipping from Abilene Machine, they were here in 2 days. CIH said it would take 5 business days.

I priced them through a CIH dealer, $158 plus freight.

So basically half what CIH wanted. I've only put the one on the hood and have yet to put the door ones on yet but the hood cylinder holds the hood down just fine.

Oh and the door cylinders from CIH didn't come with new ball joints or retaining clips, the Abilene ones came with all that so that's another $41 for CIH. So that puts it up to over $200 from CIH for 3 little gas struts.

Abilene will probably get more of our business.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Dad had a NH chain banger baler when I was a kid. Came time to put in new floor chains and he ordered them from Shoup at about half the price of the local NH dealer. When we opened the box, the chains had oem NH stickers on them. And when it comes to rebuilding a JD corn planter, do not even think twice about the dealer, go to Shoup.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

haybaler101 said:


> Dad had a NH chain banger baler when I was a kid. Came time to put in new floor chains and he ordered them from Shoup at about half the price of the local NH dealer. When we opened the box, the chains had oem NH stickers on them. And when it comes to rebuilding a JD corn planter, do not even think twice about the dealer, go to Shoup.


I hear people buy brand new JD planters and take all the factory stuff on and put on aftermarket stuff?? I guess they just like that green paint


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Man you guys are getting a little hard on Mike10. I hear what hes saying. Although I dont like NH's prices keep in mind they are the innovators and everyone else(aftermarket suppliers) are copying. NH pays the engineers to design, build,test,market the machines. Then someone like Shoup takes a part, reverse engineers it, and sells it for less. You better believe they are cheaper!


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

PaMike said:


> Man you guys are getting a little hard on Mike10. I hear what hes saying. Although I dont like NH's prices keep in mind they are the innovators and everyone else(aftermarket suppliers) are copying. NH pays the engineers to design, build,test,market the machines. Then someone like Shoup takes a part, reverse engineers it, and sells it for less. You better believe they are cheaper!


Not always the innovators. 
NH didn't build the driveshaft or the gas struts discussed above. 
They should be ashamed of themselves charging 2x what someone else charges for a part that's probably used in 50 other completely different machines. 
For proprietary parts, then yes, they can make some money.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

You will be very surprised the amount of parts that are outsource to other manufacturing companies. I own a Bush Hog 2010 pull type. The second thing I noticed was the hydraulic hose, made right in my shop  The very same fittings (and crimping of stems and nuts) ferrules, and hose assembly were all done in house. I probably had a hand in making it or QC'd and know the person to blame lol. We sent out of house at the time, parts for heat treating and plating.

There is nothing special about the applications because they are universal. The same material, various lots, various sizes, all went to Toro/Exmark, Husqvarna, Koyker, ArtsWay, John Deere, Agco, Gehl, Adams Thermal, Luverne Truck, Etc etc. The same stuff goes to Parker and we modified Parker fittings. Aftermarket suppliers purchased the exact same stuff.

Reverse engineering, that's a laugh lol. It's just reproduction and anybody can copy it because it's a blueprint in 3D. Maybe priced less, but can sometimes be machined with better material or even the material lot is better or can be worse. Had some steel that was notorious for cracking when machined or crimped, just amounted to a very bad lot. Material tolerances are not precision.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Mark up is markup, the greedier the company the more they charge. There are equipment being built that the company loses money fabricating frames or assembling functions. They make up the profit by bringing in outsourced parts because they can buy high production orders extremely cheap. So they make up labor losses by increasing the value to exceed "Overhead".


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

PaMike said:


> Man you guys are getting a little hard on Mike10. I hear what hes saying. Although I dont like NH's prices keep in mind they are the innovators and everyone else(aftermarket suppliers) are copying. NH pays the engineers to design, build,test,market the machines. Then someone like Shoup takes a part, reverse engineers it, and sells it for less. You better believe they are cheaper!


Most of the aftermarket parts we buy cheaper from Shoup or others were never engineered by CIH, NH, or JD. They are parts these companies buy from the same sources as Shoup such chains, bearings, gas struts and so forth.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Hopefully this has been an informational thread. I am not against people choosing to purchase after market parts. I just want them to be an informed buyer. Just because it looks similar and does the same job does not always make the part equal to the oem's standards. The questions I had about the drive shafts is one example.

We could sell aftermarket parts from various suppliers but choose not too. It is more hassle when you have a problem with aftermarket parts. Most after market suppliers will not pay labor to replace a defective installed part. If we installed one of those parts I would think the customer would insist we replace it without charging him.

It is not just parts from aftermarket sellers that we chose not to sell, but also wholegoods distributed from independent warehouses. Years ago we did sell those items, but the distributor may be here today and gone tomorrow. Good luck finding parts then. It costs more to deal with oem's only, but it makes life a whole lot easier when you know where to go if you need something.

The location where the part is manufactured has a big impact on the price. Unfortunately too many parts are coming from China. When comparing the price of parts, such as the strut, that is one area I would be interested in seeing if both the oem and the part bought for half the price was made in the same country.

You will not get any argument from me that parts are too high. Competition from after market sources tend to at least keep some of the oem's parts in line.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

mike10 said:


> Hopefully this has been an informational thread. I am not against people choosing to purchase after market parts. I just want them to be an informed buyer. Just because it looks similar and does the same job does not always make the part equal to the oem's standards. The questions I had about the drive shafts is one example.
> 
> We could sell aftermarket parts from various suppliers but choose not too. It is more hassle when you have a problem with aftermarket parts. Most after market suppliers will not pay labor to replace a defective installed part. If we installed one of those parts I would think the customer would insist we replace it without charging him.
> 
> ...


Components like drive shafts are not manufactured by oem's. They might be assembled by them but the components are sourced from other manufacturers. Companies like Shoup and whoever else source the same parts from the same suppliers and sell them a lot cheaper because of a lot less overhead, ie a multi million dollar dealership, showroom and parts men that do not know how many spark plugs a 6 cylinder Diesel engine requires.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

There's always Joe's Machinery Inc. in Willow Street, PA for NH Haying and Forager parts.

This link is to a pdf file of their catalog and it loads very slow even with a good connection.

http://www.lancasterfarming.com/www/Joes-Machinery-Retail-2015.pdf


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I know what I want to say but sometimes it is clear as mud. Certainly the oems do not make the drive shafts. If you are not comparing identical parts, bearings would be a good example, your are comparing apples to oranges. My question about the Bondioli drive shaft having the anti friction coating on the shafts is one I would like answered before buying an after market shaft. I also asked about the Weasler shafts being 100% the same as the oem. Somewhere down the line someone is going to want a part for that shaft, shields being a common need. Where will you go for parts when the machine is down and the hay needs to be mowed.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

"Parts men" you better watch out the ladies are going to have a problem with you. But then again they probably would agree with you. lol.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well, for less than half the cost of NH, I can buy one more shaft that has the exact same brand name and model number on it as the OEM, and it won't have to last for another 16,000 bales like the original as the baler will be gone before that and I'll be $700 ahead.

And speaking of NH round balers, it's very wise to keep a complete pillow block assembly around for the belt drive roller and the idler rollers as well.

Had the drive roller bearing go out on the sprocket side. pulled it apart, checked it, metric of course. Took it to the local welding shop who's built stuff he didn't even know what it was for, had no problem matching the ID, standard metric size, OD wouldn't match to anything, so tried an entire pillow block, ID would match but the hole pattern was special to only NH. Called Bearing Headquarters and Motion Industries, same story, hole pattern is dealer only. Can't be that good a bearing as it had Peer stamped right into the housing which is a chinese bearing. None of the local NH dealers stocked it either, got hay rained on of course.

So NH designed a machine that a pillow block can only be bought from them, what kind of tomf*ckery is that? No off the shelf pillow block in the world would have worked? Really?

Kind of a joke anyways, my 644 got abused more than the 740, had a lot more bales thru it and never changed anything but cam followers on the pickup.

New (to us) corn dryer uses all off the shelf components, can be bought at WW Grainger, McMaster Carr, Burdens Surplus Center, etc. Corn dryer isn't the only equipment we've owned that used off the shelf components, even our Oliver and White tractors use a common throw out bearing on the clutch. Even the transmission bearings were standard off the shelf Fafnirs.

If it wasn't for the fact I'm pretty sure every manufacturer tries in some way to bend the customer over the barrel with a lot of foolish "dealer only" parts I'd be looking to switch brands.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I know the feeling Marty.

Regards, Mike


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

My focus is not about whether you should buy after market parts or not. I also shop when I want to buy something. I am trying to explain, for the benefit of others, that price alone is not the total story. When you only look at price to assign equivalency between products you may be missing something important, like longevity.

Your experience with the bearing housing is nothing new. Was it planned that way or was it the design requirements that dictated the use of that particular bearing and housing, who knows.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh it was designed that way on purpose to guarantee you at least have to buy the bearing assembly from them. There is nothing special about the bearing or the housing, the welding shop in town told me that and Alan Shoemaker is one of the sharpest cookies I know, they ship there drainage pumps all over the country, still using his daddies design as they haven't found anything better.

The housing isn't that heavy, the OD of the bearing falls between two standard sizes, hole pattern was made to be an oddball on purpose.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

mike10 said:


> My focus is not about whether you should buy after market parts or not. I also shop when I want to buy something. I am trying to explain, for the benefit of others, that price alone is not the total story. When you only look at price to assign equivalency between products you may be missing something important, like longevity.
> 
> Your experience with the bearing housing is nothing new. Was it planned that way or was it the design requirements that dictated the use of that particular bearing and housing, who knows.


Maybe the longevity is the issue, why am I replacing something that was supposedly good with the same thing?

The matter that boils down is that for a lot of parts dealers are supplied with, the dealer gets them from more than one manufacturer. Those same manufacturers wholesale the same parts to aftermarket companies. An aftermarket company usually offers several options of the same part. The OEM stuff is usually the higher dollar but less than dealer.

I know a guy who has to buy his lynch pins at dealer because he thinks they are superior to tractor supply.

About the only things I'll pick up from the dealer are what I judge to be superior to another supplier or because it is the only place to get the part fast.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

I have been kinda busy with my hay season, finished 4.30 today so have just caught up with this topic, it makes interesting reading.

Mike 10 you sure have some pearls of wisdom in your posts and I like post 24 on this topic in particular.

You knowledge of NH gear is encyclopaedic.

Being a dealer for any is not easy and "competition" can pick the ripe easy fruit by dealing in high turnover items only. The equipment user hunts the lowest price, readily available on high rotation or generic components (e.g. driveshafts) then righteously complains when a low turnover specialised item is not in the dealer's inventory.

Dealers have also to manage floor plans, financing and oem promotions that do not necessarily match their market place, or seasonal conditions.

Make no mistake unique specifications on a "common" component is not the preserve of one manufacturer.

I owned a Ford Cargo 2124 truck, that like many trucks had many outsourced components. Needed some parts for the Hendrickson differentials. Could not buy from Hendrickson, because Ford had the diffs built to their specs and parts were only available from Ford. Now their truck division has been sold off, I pity anyone in need of those parts now.

The experienced mechanics are disappearing and the modern mechanic is trending to being a component assembler.

How many dealers now have a mechanic perform transmission rebuilds? Or is the transmission removed and sent off to a specialist shop and on return re-installed.

Some years ago Caterpillar boasted that they would supply any component part of any machine Cat had ever built, right back to when it was the Holt Tractor Company. Costs and an explosion of product range now dictate that this parts backup is no longer 100% though still very impressive.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mike10 said:


> "Parts men" you better watch out the ladies are going to have a problem with you. But then again they probably would agree with you. lol.


Meh, let 'em...

Parts GIRL is the most memorable time I've had one of those flagrantly stupid "how many spark plugs does a six cylinder diesel engine require" type moments...

Bout like when I was in mechanic's school... we were doing "truck brakes and chassis" and me and two buddies in our work group were doing valves-n-hoses in the cab and engine area, and this 4x4 girl (four feet tall and four feet around) and her two little wormy nerdy type city-boy guys in her work group (who all looked to be about 14 years old) were doing the duals on the rear tandems behind us... We all got a good laugh when we heard her say "If you two lift the tires, I'll put on the lug nuts!"

Yep... you want to work in a diesel shop making the big bucks, but like a typical woman, look for a GUY to do all the heavy lifting ([email protected] near everything is heavy in a diesel shop!) Being teamed up with two little nerds served her right IMHO...

Seen it all before... one of my pet peeves in fact...

Worked at the nuke plant-- "Here, you GUYS go unload that semi-load of welding gas and liquid nitrogen cylinders we just got in, while the GIRLS go count nuts and washers in a drawer..."

Drove a schoolbus, women drivers expecting the MALE drivers to load and unload the coolers and other junk on field trips... My response always was "Is your back broken?? You're making the same wage I am, for the same job... unload your own [email protected] coolers!"

Actually got into a debate with one woman driver over it one time... she was commenting how it was "chivalrous" of men to unload their crap for them... after all, men were stronger than women and therefore they SHOULD unload their crap for them...

My comment was, "Wait a minute-- you're getting paid the same as I am to do the same job (actually, she made more because of seniority), and women are supposedly capable of doing the same job I am, right?? Equal pay for equal work?? Isn't that what all the women libbers have been touting all these years?? SO what if I'm stronger than you-- you're getting PAID the same to do the same job, SO DO IT... *Jimbob* is stronger than I am-- should I expect *HIM* to do *MY* job just because of that?? I don't think so! "Equal pay for equal work" cuts both ways-- I believe in "women's lib"... Don't YOU??"

She got PO'd and stalked off... LOL

Serves her right...

OL JR


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

If you want further proof of purposeful designs that make you go to the dealer, just look at bolt lengths. How many hardware stores do you know of that stoke bolts in 1/4 inch lengths? I keep a close eye on where that particular length is actually necessary due to parts clearances, etc. and buy the 1/2 inch size at the local store when I can get away with it.

One other thing to consider is the type of operation you are running. I only put up about 5000 small square bales a year at the moment, but I know there are other folks on here that put up way more than that. They might not be quite as tolerant of a breakdown since they are pushing so much more through their machines. If I loose a couple hundred bales, I'm not happy, but it's also not going to cost me a lot of money. Someone putting up a few thousand bales in a day would probably have more of a hit to their pocket book since a couple hours of downtime to them means a lot more hay gets left out.

I do like to "keep things original" when I can, but sometimes using the OEM parts or even their aftermarket replacements doesn't make much sense if I can rebuild and modify something with different parts and make it better.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Yup. Dealer prices can bite. But when the part I am looking for isn't made aftermarket, and in stock @ the dealer, my choices are limited.

Pay. Or no pay and no part. Or make it myself. Pay it is.

Not too long ago I had issues with my truck. $240 later I had my part. Probably would have been $50 aftermarket. Obviously not profitable enough to compete with oem.

Oem has to stock em all. Theoretically. System isn't perfect.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The balers are sold all over the world and some of the design is also done overseas. That bearing may not be common in North America but it may be common in other countries. I do not know if NH intentionally spec'ed that bearing so they would have you by the gonads, but If that was the case I would think they would want to squeeze them harder than 80.00 for that large bearing and housing and I believe the locking collar. By the way, we do stock that part.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

mike10, do you ship parts all over? I want to get all my bearings from you if you have bearing and housing assemblies for $80. Have a spare nose roll bearing assy on hand, was around $120 when I bought it years ago. Replaced the left belt drive roller bearing assy (yea, the Big One) last year, $250, or was it $275? At the time I didn't care though. I was very thankful my NH dealer has it on hand and was open early Saturday afternoon during fall harvest.

Just giving you a hard time in good fun! I really appreciate your input on this forum, and can sympathize with your challenge as a dealer. Generally you are between a rock and a hard place.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

To put it mildly, I was shocked at the price. I was expecting at least 150.00 comparing it to others on the baler. Who knows, in the next price update it might be. I do not like the prices any better than our customers, but we also have to buy them at the high price. Sometimes I feel like I should have a mask on when selling parts. lol It is doubly bad when your dealer does not have the part in stock and the rain is coming.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

mike10 said:


> The balers are sold all over the world and some of the design is also done overseas. That bearing may not be common in North America but it may be common in other countries. I do not know if NH intentionally spec'ed that bearing so they would have you by the gonads, but If that was the case I would think they would want to squeeze them harder than 80.00 for that large bearing and housing and I believe the locking collar. By the way, we do stock that part.


Could be, but I'm also pretty sure that if it was a common bearing elsewhere, then Beraing Headquarters or Motion Industries should have been able to get it.

I think that none of our NH dealers in the area are doing very well, two of them barely have any new equipment on the lots. A few other things as well says they have considerably tightened their purse strings as of late. Maybe low commodity prices are scaring the hay guys as well?


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