# Farm Transition-Dad got the farm appraised...



## PaMike

Finally the wife and I were able to push my parents to look into a transition plan for the farm.They are both 67. They want to preserve the land, and keep the building and 25 acres for themselves. They would sell me 2 parcels

- One parcel is 14.9 acres, 8 tillable with 97% soil productivity.Other 6.9 is pasture, rolling land, good soil. Has 1/2 acre woods and a stream to water livestock. Appraised at $20K an acre or 298,000 total. Geeze...

-Remaining 39 acres is wooded with 3 creeks, some swamp, and about 10 acres cleared for pasture. The pasture ground has thin topsoil and drys off quick in the summer...

Nothing is tillable to any good degree... $11,400 an acre. $444600 total....

The sad thing is they just had the place logged and only got $20K for the logging after about 40 years of growth.

The other thing that ticks me off is the appraiser said that farm prices have climbed 8-10% the last 2 years. If this appraisal would have happened 2 years ago when we wanted it to I would have saved 100K+. Winter of 2014 GOOD farms were going for $15K an acre. This winter two sold for $22-$24K an acre....

The other thing that gets me is when I "took over" in 2004 the place was in rough shape. I spent all my own money to clear brush, spray,lime, fix fence, add fence, etc etc, now I gotta pay full appraised price for land I spent the last 10 years improving on my dime....

Oh, and the land I can buy has no building on it, Dad is keeping them for himself...

I have two months to decide if I want the land. Take one parcel or all....

Rant done now...


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## somedevildawg

I would let them sell it to someone else.......I don't think those kinda numbers can pencil out for farming on any scale. I hate the appraisal process anyway, it's a flawed process in my opin.....


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## rjmoses

Here's something you might consider if you want the complete farm and your parents want you to have it. (I did this with my family and everybody was happy, work well). The laws may be different from Illinois' laws, so check with an attorney

Have your parents set up a LLC and quit claim the property to the LLC. Set them up as owner with a Transfer On Death (TOD) to you. Set it up with you as the permanent LLC manager. Put a clause in the agreement that you have the right if first refusal at a predetermined price, should they ever need to sell the property to cover emergencies such as health problems. Also, set it up that you can buy it at anytime at a price established in the LLC agreement, no questions asked. (Don't say anything like "fair market value"; put a hard number on it.)

If you have siblings, and it is appropriate, add in that you can "buy" their interests in any inheritance at a price determined today.

This essentially turns the LLC into a contract between you, your parents and your siblings. Being open and up front about helps avoid any problems when the TOD time comes.

My family and I set my place at $2000/ac in 1999. Current prices are going $6-10,000. I put all the improvements on the place, buildings, etc., by "loaning" the LLC the money to do the improvement. These were loans secured by the property. The loans where low interest rate and interest accumulated without being paid on (check this out carefully for your area). The loans where forgiven at TOD.

The "loans" gave me the necessary leverage the one time things got a little sticky with my sister. She had not realized how much time, effort and money I had invested, so this gave her a perspective.

This approach also avoided any probate and estate taxes.

This is only an outline and I would be happy to talk with you more about it if you're interested.

Ralph


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## PaMike

I tried to have them set it up in an LLC and they wouldn't do it...

The sad thing is my dad, myself and another guy are partners in a machine shop with 20 employees. It has worked well over the last 6 years. We each have our roll and its understood. We have bought my Dad out to only 25% owner.

He doesn't need the farm sale money for retirement, he got plenty from the business....plus he still works 4 days a week and makes plenty.

My parents wont put it in an LLC because they want to CONTROL everything. They don't want big trucks coming in. They don't want excess manure smell etc etc. Its all about control...The land they retain is all around their buildings so that I cant mess up their "view". I really want to tell them to take the land and shove it, but I know its probably my only chance to acquire land in the near future...


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## swmnhay

PaMike I was going to say relocate after your first post but then I see you have another business so relocating is prly out of the question.It looks to me no way the land will pay for itself so is it worth it just to own it?

I just got call from appraiser yesterday fortunately some recent sales have dropped substantialy or we would have been looking at substantial estate tax in our great state of Mn.


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## JD3430

Have they paid you for all the land clean up work you did?

If no, can you negotiate the price down with your dad to include your labor inputs?


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## snowball

Been though what your up against It's hard to deal with family, I feel for you because your in a ruff spot and I wish you good fortune. Take this from somebody that made some mistake's when I was involved in it . There is land some where for sale . But you only have 1 set of parents. Just make the choices you can live with the rest of your life and not bury you in dept the rest of you life... Not Trying to make a joke just asking but I see your in Lancaster PA . Has that TV show and Lebanon Levi drove up the price of Dirt there ???


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## PaMike

Around here its all about the Amish and Mennonites. They NEED land for their way or life and they will pay ANYTHING to sustain that lifestyle. Most of the land is being bought by these people that need that lifestyle but have off farm income to pay for it.

In the appraisal one of the pieces was a 40 acre hillside that sold to a local amish guy for just over 1M with no house on the ground. The Amish guy has a flooring business, but wanted a farm to keep his kids busy so he paid what it took to buy the land. He didn't even have the down money at sale day, but cause he is Amish the auctioneer trusted him. He borrowed the down money and made it work at the end of the day.

The thing that makes me mad is dad says "well I bought a farm at your age so you should be able to too." But land in this area has skyrocketed the last 20-30 years. The other interesting thing is that when he bought the farm grandma gave him a zero interest loan. Zero interest make a big difference in what you can afford....

JD- No I paid for everything out of my own pocket cause I love the land, grew up on it, and wanted the place looking nice. Plus I love what I do.... To give you an idea of the condition of the place....None of the pastures has PH level above 5.9. Most were 5.5,5.8. Try growing grass in that ! The fence rows were that over grown with multiflora rose you wouldn't get with in 5-6 feet of the fence....


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## 8350HiTech

If it wasn't family, the easiest thing to do would be call their bluff. Because it is family, and you presumably want to not hate them or them you, I'm not sure what else there is to do other than walk away. Easier said than done, obviously.


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## Dill

I'd bring in another outsider. There are mediators that specifically deal with these issues. I deal with a lot of farmers in my real job (farm insurance) and Ive seen it work well. And I've seen farms fail over this issue as well.


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## Lostin55

At the numbers posted, I would walk away. There is no way, that I can see, to maintain the family bonds and also make the land purchase work.


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## PaMike

I have a good off farm job that may support it and a lot of cash saved. Problem is most of the ground is marginal at best. You would get dizzy looking at a topo map of the place...

If something happened to me wife couldn't rent much of it out. Land is so hilly most big time guys wouldn't even consider renting it...

I think the 20K for good ground is probably about right, but 11,400 for the junk land is where I have a problem...Dad is pretty much take it or leave it....


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## 8350HiTech

What happens if you do nothing? I take it the farm is currently only for sale to you. Why not just let him continue to control things for awhile and hope that his stance softens? Is there a danger in waiting?


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## Lewis Ranch

There's not a chance I'd pay that kind of money for ground whether it has been in the family or not. I can't see that ever paying for itself, you could have 100 irrigated acres somewhere that will really produce for that kinda money.


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## PaMike

If I wait he takes the offer off the table in 2 months.

I have been farming it for the last 10 years with no lease. Going forward we would have to have a lease.

I would have to pay for the land use PLUS maintain all ground and fences at my cost. We have several miles of fence, so that cost adds up.

The main problem is we cant get along anymore. I want to build a small calf barn for 10-12 calves, he doesn't want any changes. Doesn't matter if I pay for them or not. I want to widen a gate at the road from 14 ft to 16 or 18 and he doesn't want it changed. I want to cut down some trees. He gets mad it they are cut down.... You get the picture...

Problem is if I wait. I continue to dump money into his property and when he dies I will have to buy out two siblings....


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## 8350HiTech

How's your relationship with your siblings? You'd have to buy them out of the 25 and the buildings anyway so you'll find out how greedy they can be one way or the other.

Btw, I understand. I don't get along with dad and I'm completely avoiding the situation.


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## PaMike

My siblings and I "get along" right now, but we really have no relationship. One lives in De and one in VA. We see each other and talk on family holidays. I brother is pretty laid back. As long as he got some cash to spend he would be fine.

My sister on the other hand...I called her and talked to her about a year ago about Mom/Dad/ the transition etc etc. Her comment was "well if you buy the farm and something happens to you Jen(my wife) could sell the place." We wouldn't be able to come back and see the house then, and show the kids where great grandma was born.

My sister comes up to visit with the 4 kids fairly often. The big empty farmhouse has plenty of room for them, and its a vacation of sorts before returning to VA suburban life. The thing she doesn't realize is that someone is maintaining the place, and all the buildings, and paying the taxes so she has a nice place to come up to and visit the parents....


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## IH 1586

PaMike said:


> The thing that makes me mad is dad says "well I bought a farm at your age so you should be able to too." But land in this area has skyrocketed the last 20-30 years. The other interesting thing is that when he bought the farm grandma gave him a zero interest loan. Zero interest make a big difference in what you can afford....


I have been in a similar position and it's not easy. My mom told me the same thing after dad passed and I took over milking. "your dad was able to make the farm payments" she seemed to have forgotten that he still had his dad's to help in the beginning. I got my help all from hired help and add to that I was getting the same milk prices as he was in the 80's and this was in 2000. Doesn't quite match up. I wish you luck that you are able to find a way to work it out.


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## hog987

IH 1586 said:


> I have been in a similar position and it's not easy. My mom told me the same thing after dad passed and I took over milking. "your dad was able to make the farm payments" she seemed to have forgotten that he still had his dad's to help in the beginning. I got my help all from hired help and add to that I was getting the same milk prices as he was in the 80's and this was in 2000. Doesn't quite match up. I wish youo luck that you are able to find a way to work it out.


When dad and I did the math about buying land. We took land prices and wages at different times. The conclusion is that now for me to buy land it is 4x harder to do than when grandpa bought his land.


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## Teslan

Why would the offer stop after 2 months? It kind of sounds like you are in a no win situation all around? Any similar land for sale nearby?


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## PaMike

Nah, land is pretty much impossible to come across here. Either sells private to a tenant or family friend, or it sells at public auction for crazy money.

Offer is only good for 2 months cause the appraisal has to be within 2 months of the land preservation. If I dont buy it they wont bother preserving it...


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## TJH

Sounds like your dad is being an a**. He ought to know that you can't pay for it at that price, especially at that price with agriculture. Found myself in about the same thing with my dad. Tried to get him to get his land out of his name and always got the same answer, " If you get divorced she will get half." I kept telling him we ain't getting divorced, been together too long to start over. it got into one big damn mess that I still don't know if I will get out of. But as the little woman keeps telling me it's in God's hands, there's nothing you can do about it but pray. And she's right, life is short enough without trying to put yourself in an early grave over land. It was here before us and it will be here long after we are dust. Just my buffalo nickels worth.


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## 8350HiTech

PaMike said:


> Nah, land is pretty much impossible to come across here. Either sells private to a tenant or family friend, or it sells at public auction for crazy money.
> Offer is only good for 2 months cause the appraisal has to be within 2 months of the land preservation. If I dont buy it they wont bother preserving it...


Wait. What? They're charging you full appraised price of farm that's not preserved even though they're going to put it into preservation and presumably take the farm pres money for themselves? And I thought I couldn't have gotten worse...


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## deadmoose

How much is the preservation worth?


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## hog987

I could give you some advice that would either make things better or ten times worse. But I think you have been given the best advice. Bring in a neutral third party.


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## treymo

Thinks are so much more peaceful west of the Mississippi... I met some Mennonites from Lancaster County the other day that just recently moved to a Mennonite community startup in South Central Colorado close to Trinidad. They said farming was pretty cut throat in Pennsylvania but there was nothing they could've done to prepare themselves for the "harsh" conditions in the west.

Trey


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## PaMike

Parents would be selling the land to me at the preserved appraised value. The unpreserved value was 30K and 16,400 an acre!

Trey- Farming is very cut throat here. Very few farmers working together. They are all bidding on ground that other rent and trying to get ground away from someone else...


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## snowball

PaMike said:


> Parents would be selling the land to me at the preserved appraised value. The unpreserved value was 30K and 16,400 an acre!
> 
> Trey- Farming is very cut throat here. Very few farmers working together. They are all bidding on ground that other rent and trying to get ground away from someone else...


it's just as bad in the Midwest perfect example go back about 8 or 9 yrs. the story was on Date Line NBC about 25 miles from were I was in IA 1 neighbor shot his other neighbor on the farm he had just bought then drug his body be hide his pick up then stuffed him down a well. All over the fact that he Bought that farm ( No Pun Intended ) that's cut throat... Thanks to my ex-partner we would have to leave a night watch man to babysit our equipment on some rented farms. because he was a cut throat himself. I don't miss it or ever want it back either


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## Mike120

I went through something similar with our place and tried to get a consensus on setting up a corporation to sort out the various ownership issues stemming from the long-past combining of assets by family members. Some wanted it preserved as a "shrine" but had no interest in doing any work; others wanted it worked but had no time or equipment, and others wanted to own cows and have someone else take care of them. Trying to herd cats would have been far easier and I failed miserably at trying to apply logic to a completely emotional situation.

Shortly after my father's death, which compounded the ownership issues even further, I gifted my ownership rights to my two children and told them that they "could deal with my siblings and relatives. Neither has any interest in the place and I have no idea what shape it's in or anything else about it. It is nothing more than a good memory of my younger years and from a sanity standpoint, probably one of the best things I ever did. Sometimes it's best to just walk away.

Forgive me for saying this but it seems that you feel that you are entitled to your parents land and you are bitter towards your parents because they don't seem to agree with you. You also seem to begrudge your father for what you had to pay to buy his interests in the machine shop. This is sad because left unchecked, it can poison your relationship with your parents and poison you as an individual. I'd suggest that you may want to reevaluate your expectations because it sounds like you are assuming things that were never agreed to in the first place.

Sadly, you seem to have the defeatist attitude that this is the only way you will ever be able to farm because the business is "very cut throat". Welcome to the real world. So is running a machine shop, but you, your friend, and father seem to have been successful at that. If you apply the same effort and attributes to finding a place of your own, I suspect you will be a lot better off in the long run. You'll have the pride and knowledge that you accomplished it on your own and not the bitterness that you were cheated out of having something handed to you on a silver platter. Sometimes it's best to just walk away&#8230;..


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## snowball

Pamike ... 120 Mike said it so well my mother acted the same way as your father is acting. Morel of the Story.. I'am in 1 State, she and the family Farm are in another. there is 200 + miles and 22 yrs between us and it took 12 of the 22 yrs to figure out we both did the right thing, I Thank her for that every time we talk, and love her more today... some times you just got to wave good bye and walk on. it's tough to do but will pay off down the road. I've seen more bad deals made on sentiment than on good judgement.. ( JMO ) PaMike have Teslan find you a piece of land in the Foothills of Co. and make the move to start your own legacy for your kids just my 2 cents worth


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## 8350HiTech

I don't want to speak for PaMike, but the interpretation of Mike120 sounds way off from the way I've read all of this.

He didn't ask for a freebie. He's just asking for some credit towards improvements and care he's put into the place while his siblings have been away. Fair market value is not always "fair".

If they can get along with the machine shop, they should be able to get along with the farm. But they can't and this confuses him.

I do agree that sometimes moving away and seeing family much less frequently can be the best thing for everyone, but that isn't always easy (especially when he owns another business that is clearly making more money than farming) so I continue to sympathize with PaMike.


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## Vol

It is a tough situation....and having a ongoing business makes it even tougher as you just cannot "pickup" and move on to happier farming grounds. The business is the tie that binds.

I do not see a clear cut answer where all parties involved will be satisfied.

Sometimes the very best thing one can do when under the gun is to do nothing.....wait until the very end and prayerfully seek guidance and just maybe something will lead you into your decision. I know your time is very limited, but I would just wait.

One never knows destiny, but this may lead you into the greatest transition to occur in your lifetime.

I wish you nothing but the very best for all of your family Mike.

Regards, Mike


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## PaMike

I really cant relocate. We have a business so that ties us to this area. My wife is very picky where we live. No farms in the middle of no where, no junky old farmhouses. Makes it tough to keep us both happy.

Mike120- I hear what your saying. I guess I should clarify my situation a little. My parents have always viewed the property as a family farm. Its been in the family since around 1880. They have always desired the property to stay in the family they just didn't know how or when that would happen. Having farmed it on my own, for the last 12 years, I have felt that I have proven to be an able care taker of the property.Also, due to the fact that none of my siblings are in the area or have interest in farming I am the only person available to continue on. It just frustrates me that the family cant have an open conversation about the situation. If I were to purchase the property I think it would be the best option for my siblings. They could continue to come to the farm and walk the property and swim in the creek etc etc.

I had talked about buying another farm in the area and asked my parents if they could assist me. Either going in as partners, co-signing etc. Basically they avoided the situation and wouldn't give me any answers. Basically they didn't want me to pack up and leave...

My parents are generally of the opinion that if they sell anything to me at less than fair market value they have to compensate the other siblings. I understand their thought process but that's a pretty tough thing to do....I just wish the family could all decide on a value/payment plan that works for everyone....

I think at the end of the day we will end of buying the land at fair market value. Land has been climbing steadily with a small dip in 2009. A local farm that sold in 2004 for $750,000 would now bring 1.5 million 10 years later. If I get in financial trouble I can always sell the land. Its not hard to sell land here, and as long as I make it 5+ years I will probably make money on the deal...


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## Mike120

I sympathize with the whole situation. As the oldest, I grew up as the "hired hand" on our place and none of my siblings or relatives put more work or effort into our place than I did. That work and effort contributed to who I am today and is part of the memories I will always cherish. However, my father always made it clear that his assets would be equally divided between his children. My work and efforts were "chores" and everything I did after I was grown was done to help my parents and preserve the value of the place.

I have a similar problem with this place. One kid has little interest and one has lots, but both will share equally when my wife and I are gone. It's always messy and it's probably never fair from all perspectives, but I am at least trying to manage expectations to minimize the  fighting and hurt feelings when I'm gone. That will be my final "just walking away".


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## carcajou

I walked away 24 years ago from a situation all to similar to the above stories. So many young farmers of my age driven off the farm by selfish parents. Most of them set up by their parents and then not willing to do the same for their children. After years of frustration, and building up their farm my wife and i left and started over. We all know how strong our bonds are to the farms we grew up on. The stone picking, fence building, land clearing etc really makes you a part of the farm.

It was hard to leave, but for my wife and family it was for the best.


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## Mike120

PaMike said:


> I really cant relocate. We have a business so that ties us to this area. My wife is very picky where we live. No farms in the middle of no where, no junky old farmhouses. Makes it tough to keep us both happy.
> 
> Mike120- I hear what your saying. I guess I should clarify my situation a little. My parents have always viewed the property as a family farm. Its been in the family since around 1880. They have always desired the property to stay in the family they just didn't know how or when that would happen. Having farmed it on my own, for the last 12 years, I have felt that I have proven to be an able care taker of the property.Also, due to the fact that none of my siblings are in the area or have interest in farming I am the only person available to continue on. It just frustrates me that the family cant have an open conversation about the situation. If I were to purchase the property I think it would be the best option for my siblings. They could continue to come to the farm and walk the property and swim in the creek etc etc.
> 
> I had talked about buying another farm in the area and asked my parents if they could assist me. Either going in as partners, co-signing etc. Basically they avoided the situation and wouldn't give me any answers. Basically they didn't want me to pack up and leave...
> 
> My parents are generally of the opinion that if they sell anything to me at less than fair market value they have to compensate the other siblings. I understand their thought process but that's a pretty tough thing to do....I just wish the family could all decide on a value/payment plan that works for everyone....
> 
> I think at the end of the day we will end of buying the land at fair market value. Land has been climbing steadily with a small dip in 2009. A local farm that sold in 2004 for $750,000 would now bring 1.5 million 10 years later. If I get in financial trouble I can always sell the land. Its not hard to sell land here, and as long as I make it 5+ years I will probably make money on the deal...


We were both writing and you beat me on the post. I understand your situation and unfortunately buying it at market value is probably best. One of my younger brothers bought my mother's company before she died. I knew what he paid but the others didn't. I thought he got screwed, everyone else thought he was handed a silver platter. He worked his butt off and built it into a very successful company. That was just one of many sibling battles I had to referee as my father's executor. I finally ended up explaining that the probate process was not a democracy and they should consider me a benevolent dictator. Where they couldn't come to an agreement on something, I'd get a third-party appraiser (paid for by the estate) to establish the value that the individual who wanted it would pay. At the end of the process (months) everything was settled and one hell of a lot of misconceptions, assumptions, hurt feelings, etc were finally cleared up. With me, my parents were pretty clear, I had very few expectations, and assumed that everyone was that way. I was very wrong, and it sounds like you've got a similar situation brewing.

If you buy the place, at the appraised value, in a transparent transaction, and the value goes up; no one can say anything. You also own it, and have control over what can and cannot be done with it. Sibling rivalry is very real and often parents have no idea what problems some of their actions (or inaction) cause down the road. Ralph's success with his situation was solved with transparency and agreed pricing. Dealing with family is often more problem ridden than dealing with strangers.......Good luck!


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## PaMike

You can pick your friends but you cant pick your family!

Thanks for all the input. It makes me feel better to know others have been in a tough spot just like me...

Our neighbor basically got his farm handed to him as he was the youngest son. 45 years later his older sister still holds a grudge over it...

Now I just need to buy a second farm so I can give one to each of my kids and they wont have the same issue as me...of course then they would fight over who got which free farm...


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## Uphayman

I've read and reread all the posts. Your not alone with the " family farm transition". Been there and have had similar experiences. Everyone has a different definition of what is fair. Get an agreed upon 3rd party with some professional experience in this area, to try and come up with a win-win . This might be impossible, depending on compromising abilities of involved parties. Having your hands tied even with the land purchased, regarding improvements (tree removal, gate widening, no trucks ), is my definition for being an "indentured servant". I'm also struggling with the idea that you feel you are obligated to provide your sister and her family with a free B&B at great grandma's house.

Sounds like a major CW (can't win) on the horizon. Keeping everyone happy will drive you nuts. Set your priorities, wife, kids, your own peace. Sometimes the best deals (decisions ) made, are the ones you walk away from. Your in my prayers.


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## PaMike

Actually once I buy the land I can do what I please, so the trees and other issues of the past wont be an issue anymore. I actually feel like an indentured servant right now. I actually refer to myself as the "hired hand" when talking to my wife.

Only issue will be the right of way dad is giving me. He only wants it to be a certain width ( I think 20 ft) and doesn't want daily traffic due to a house on the property. Just farm traffic. I tried to explain to him the he needs to think LONG TERM since he is preserving the land and since equipment keeps getting bigger and bigger, but that went no where.

As far as my siblings. The land I will be buying doesn't have the buildings on it. Once the parents aren't around anymore the other two kids can decide if they want to pay fair market value to keep the house and remaining 25 acres in the family...

My siblings are more than welcome to come over and enjoy the land if I buy it, but what they say wont influence my operation or how I conduct business.

It should be an interesting next two months as we try to hash things out....


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## 8350HiTech

So they've made it clear that they want to retain ownership of the buildings and remaining acreage as long as they're alive? This is just my opinion, but if they're going to sell you the outer parcels at market value, they should at least let you have the first option of buying the remainder of the farm at some future time.


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## Grateful11

PAMike I have to ask. When your parents pass away where do you stand in the estate? Are you going to get an equal share in the estate or are you being cut out because, no disrespect, but it sounds like your Dad might be the type that since you'll have part of the farm, even though you're going to pay for it, he might just leave you out of the estate. That may have already been brought up and maybe I missed it.

Also I'll put money on it that that 20' right-of-way will have a fence running the length with exactly 20' of space for you to get equipment in and out. The farm here has a disc that's almost 15' wide and it can be a bear sometimes. My late FIL took out a few mailboxes with it himself.

My wife has been lurking on this thread so I probably need to watch what I say


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## Dill

Who is pocketing the money from the preservation sale? Also what about setting up your folks with life tenancy on the whole place with farming rights to you?

Like I said before there are professionals who deal with farm transfers and will have plenty of interesting ideas.


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## PaMike

8350-Yeah, they want to own the house forever. They arent going anywhere...I thought about a right of first refusal on the other land but I doubt they will go for that...They have this thing about "me getting everything". Since I bought the family business(at fair market value) if I also bought the farm I would be "getting everything"...Even through there should be plenty of cash for the other kids..Their stance is I should build new building on the ground I buy....

Gratefull11-When my parents pass away my understanding is all 3 kids get equal value of the assets. Heres the catch....When my business partner and I bought Dad out of the business he retained 25% and wants to hold that till death(see a pattern). He refused to sell more than 75%. At death I will get the remaining 25% share. Here is the kicker. Its my understanding that the 25% gets valued at time of estate settlement. So in 20 years when he dies I get the 25% at that inflated value. Thats not bad if Dad contributed to the business up untill his death, but if he doesnt I am basically building his value in the business all to have it count against me when settling the estate...My sister is the oldest and will be executor...

Dill- Mom and Dad get the preservation money...When Dad bought the place from grandma she got a life tenancy in return he got an interest free loan. I offered that idea to them since my wife hates the house and didnt want to live in it. They refused...Dad thinks I should be able to afford the farm because when he bought it he paid 5 times his yearly salary for the farm. What he is forgetting is I am paying way more than 5 times my salary, plus interest on a large dollar amount, PLUS I have no building so I have to buy a house in addition to the land...


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## TJH

Mike, talk to your wife and listen to her women's intuition. Maybe it's just me, but the more you type the more this sounds like a no win thing for you. Almost like it's intentionally stacked against you. 500K is a boat load of money, just make sure it's not going to sink you.


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## bluefarmer

As hard as it is to admit, a woman's intuition usually holds a lot of water. Sure am glad my wife don't read this!!!


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## snowball

bluefarmer said:


> As hard as it is to admit, a woman's intuition usually holds a lot of water. Sure am glad my wife don't read this!!!


HERE.HERE I'll drink to that !!! My wife thought she was wrong once ,but turns out she was wrong


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## PaMike

Funny thing is this is the only farm my wife has been in agreement about buying...She likes the location, house we would be buying etc...


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## Mike120

Mike, just one other point....it sounds like you are buying a landlocked piece of property. If so, the access right-of-way needs to be surveyed and dedicated, or the price should reflect the fact that access is not guaranteed. You need to preserve your ability to sell. This should be treated like the same type of transaction you would do with a stranger to protect your investment. Sadly, it sounds like a lot of us have gotten burnt on family deals in the past and unfortunately, it's hard to not trust the ones you love.


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## JD3430

I think the emotion of the situation is getting the better of you. I have bought & sold enough real estate to know and my dad always used to say "Dont fall in love with land. When you do, you start off in trouble".

My dad used to buy land CHEAP and he never got into trouble. If the deal was too expensive, he'd walk. 8 times out of 10, the seller would come back to him with a lower offer. Conversely, his brother always used to overpay. He ended up tight on money his whole life, never able to afford vacations, vehicles, etc. because he spent so much on land in the beginning.

I would look at the deal as if a perfect stranger was selling it. Then decide if it's worth it. 
Overpaying for land puts you in a hole you'll never get out of.


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## PaMike

JD- Problem is there isnt any "cheap" land in this area. Kinda like down where you are at. Prime farmland here just sold for 20K,25K and 22.5K at auction this winter. Although this land isnt "prime" it is about my cheapest option...

Wife and I started a list of "issues" that need worked out for the sale to happen. Such as the right of way, right of first refusal on existing land, etc. We are going to present these "issues" to my parents just like any buyer would negotiate with a seller. See what happens from there....


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## JD3430

Land down my way is $150,000/acre. Any build able land not flood plain or in conservation, has homes on it. Only exception is wealthy people who leave it open because they can afford to lose money.

You oughta take all that money you're going to borrow on that land and buy youself a nice house on a lot big enough to park some equipment, buy some farm equipment and become a commercial farmer, kind of like what I'm doing. You farm other people's property all day, then come home to a home without all the farm issues.


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## endrow

JD I believe that will only work for a select few but there are days I could do without the farm issues.


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## JD3430

endrow said:


> JD I believe that will only work for a select few but there are days I could do without the farm issues.


Workin ok for me! 
What I'm saying is why spend 500k on a farm that the potential buyer admits is overpriced and isn't exactly a "Kansas postage stamp" (not flat and 100% tillable) ?

I'd want to know what the other siblings plans are. Hate to mention this, having just lost my mom, but someday the parents will pass away. If the siblings want to sell their shares, maybe they'd sell to him cheaper than the parents would? 
If PAMike buys elsewhere, he can have some years to build up additional equity in another property and use it as collateral to borrow $ to buy out other siblings when parents pass. Siblings may be in need of money and take less than the parents in a inheritance situation.
I am going through this EXACT situation right now. My mom has a $650,000 home )& property. My brother and sister have different opinions of value in estate and contents. 
I am so happy my mom appointed her (and mine) accountant the executor of her estate. We have found a buyer for her home and our accountant is not emotionally involved. 
In PAMikes case, emotion and a sense of urgency have taken over. I don't know the whole situation, but I'd take a breath and look at other options. If he doesn't buy now, it doesn't mean he loses out. It means he must wait for parents to pass. By then he may be in a much better situation. Siblings may want him to have farm more than parents currently do.


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## endrow

I know to buy from family is always different . I bought farms from family we agreed on far market value but they were so afraid ,I would turn around and sell for a much higher price (back when land kept going up). They made me sell the development rights( Preserved) off of the home farm . I did not want to but I knew it was the only way to settle . In my mind owning land and farming go hand in hand .


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## swmnhay

There is probably a lot better way to transfer ownership,mainly to avoid taxes.Your parents are going to have to pay huge capital gains tax and there is another Obama tax to pay for this health care crap.I'd say look into some estate planning with a financial advisor maybe there would be a better way of doing the sale?


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## JD3430

Why would they have to pay cap gains?
I thought Cap gains was repealed by Clinton in '97 up to a pretty high amount? Probably a lot higher amount than PAMikes parents farm.
My parents actually waited till '98 to sell their property for $750,000 because they finally got rid of cap gains tax.


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## swmnhay

JD,Depends what tax bracket you fall in.Cut and pasted this off a tax rate schedule sheet.Tax rates on long term capital gains.

If taxable income falls below the 25% tax bracket 0%

If taxable income falls at or above the 25% tax bracket but below the
39.6% rate
15%

If income falls in the 39.6% tax bracket 20%


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## JD3430

I'm actually inheriting a pretty decent sum as we type. No cap gains tax, so the "bracket" you speak of is pretty high. 
All I'm paying is 4% state tax.


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## PaMike

I think one of the main reasons I am in favor of buying land now is because Dad and I have different "visions" for the farm. I am more modern and he wants everything the same. If I buy property then I can do as I please and Dad must accept that. Right now he and I really cant get along...


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> I'm actually inheriting a pretty decent sum as we type. No cap gains tax, so the "bracket" you speak of is pretty high.
> All I'm paying is 4% state tax.


Two totally different things inheriting or buying from someone.

Farmland gets a stepped up basis when goes threw an estate so there is no capital gains.

A cut and paste from U of M

Assets that pass through an estate receive a
"stepped up" basis. The "stepped up" basis is usually the fair market value on the decedent's date of death. This provides a strong incentive to hold low basis property until death to achieve the stepped up valuation for heirs.
Example: Sally Smith sold 160 acres of farmland for $4200/acre or $672,000. It had an adjusted basis of $100,000. Her taxable gain whether sold for cash or by installment method would be $572,000. Because of the sale, she or her heirs must pay tax on the $572,000 gain. However, if Sally had retained the property until her death, the estate would assign a stepped up basis to FMV of $672,000. The heirs could later sell the property for that amount and pay no tax.


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## JD3430

swmnhay said:


> Two totally different things inheriting or buying from someone.
> 
> Farmland gets a stepped up basis when goes threw an estate so there is no capital gains.
> 
> A cut and paste from U of M
> 
> Assets that pass through an estate receive a
> "stepped up" basis. The "stepped up" basis is usually the fair market value on the decedent's date of death. This provides a strong incentive to hold low basis property until death to achieve the stepped up valuation for heirs.
> Example: Sally Smith sold 160 acres of farmland for $4200/acre or $672,000. It had an adjusted basis of $100,000. Her taxable gain whether sold for cash or by installment method would be $572,000. Because of the sale, she or her heirs must pay tax on the $572,000 gain. However, if Sally had retained the property until her death, the estate would assign a stepped up basis to FMV of $672,000. The heirs could later sell the property for that amount and pay no tax.


I was talking about if he waited until parents passed.

No worries.


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## Grateful11

I'm thinking one can inherit $2mil. without paying capital gains but it may have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States


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## somedevildawg

Grateful11 said:


> I'm thinking one can inherit $2mil. without paying capital gains but it may have changed.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_gains_tax_in_the_United_States


Lol, it's something I've honestly never researched, it would be a complete waste of time for me.....


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## deadmoose

Hear ya there dawg.


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## Bgriffin856

From what I can tell is PA is three different worlds. Im happy and proud to be living in third world PA

But was looking at the realtor ad the other day and couldn't believe the price they wanted for some of those rat holes, could go buy a farm or atleast farmland at some of the prices given


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## JD3430

Bgriffin856 said:


> From what I can tell is PA is three different worlds. Im happy and proud to be living in third world PA
> But was looking at the realtor ad the other day and couldn't believe the price they wanted for some of those rat holes, could go buy a farm or atleast farmland at some of the prices given


It's not all downside. In my third, the schools can be very good & lots of pretty women (with white teeth option). 
Yeah, it's expensive to live here, but there's a large clientele with lots of money to spend fixing things and farming their "oversized lots" as they call them.
Lots of opportunity for a ******* dropped in with a bunch of suburban millionaires....lol


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## Mike120

JD3430 said:


> I think the emotion of the situation is getting the better of you. I have bought & sold enough real estate to know and my dad always used to say "Dont fall in love with land. When you do, you start off in trouble".
> 
> My dad used to buy land CHEAP and he never got into trouble. If the deal was too expensive, he'd walk. 8 times out of 10, the seller would come back to him with a lower offer. Conversely, his brother always used to overpay. He ended up tight on money his whole life, never able to afford vacations, vehicles, etc. because he spent so much on land in the beginning.
> 
> I would look at the deal as if a perfect stranger was selling it. Then decide if it's worth it.
> Overpaying for land puts you in a hole you'll never get out of.


Having been burnt on "kinfolk deals" in the past and having witnessed other "burnings", I have a strong bias against them even though many are inevitable. I used to think that it was just my dysfunctional family but I suspect the real issue, as JD pointed out, is that "kinfolk deals" are usually driven more by love and emotion rather than by logic and economics.

Mike, you have received a lot of good advice here and I suspect from others as well. I sense however that you are under enough pressure from wife and family that you are eventually going to go forward with the deal. As much as I hate to suggest this, I think you need to get a third-party (lawyer....god I hate the L-word) involved to make sure that your investment is as protected as possible. It will likely be the best money you spend and you let him/her do the negotiations, get everything in writing, and agreed.

All my life I've heard about "Philadelphia Lawyers" (I even met some when I lived up there) and you've probably got a lot of retired ones in your county that could do it for you. Take a run out PA 340 and find one in Intercourse, I can't think of a more appropriately named place for a lawyer that you would want on your side.

Best of luck, I hope it works out for you and your family.


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## snowball

Mike120 said:


> All my life I've heard about "Philadelphia Lawyers" (I even met some when I lived up there) and you've probably got a lot of retired ones in your county that could do it for you. Take a run out PA 340 and find one in Intercourse, I can't think of a more appropriately named place for a lawyer that you would want on your side.
> 
> Best of luck, I hope it works out for you and your family.


Damm IT. Mike 120 don't make any more posts like that with out a warring 1st I just about peed my pants when I read that last bit. LOL but that is so true....Reminds me of a old saying..." The only thing worse than a lawyer in a room is 2 lawyers and only 1 bullet


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## Thorim

What do you call 1000 lawyers chained to the bottom of the ocean? A good start.....


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## Grateful11

Everyone hate lawyers until they actually need one, whether it be to settle an estate or get someone out of a ticket. Then they're like, "anyone know a lawyer I can trust".


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## JD3430

Grateful11 said:


> Everyone hate lawyers until they actually need one, whether it be to settle an estate or get someone out of a ticket. Then they're like, "anyone know a lawyer I can trust".


I used to think that, too. 
When my mom was dying, we asked our family lawyer for a price to settle our estate. He gave us a estimate of "10-20% of the estate value". According to other we talked to they said that was "cheap". 
Let's say you have an estate over $700,000 for example. You're telling me $70-140,000 is cheap??? I don't think so.....
We ended up hiring our family accountant and what he's charging us is so small, that the 3 siblings are thinking of paying him more. And really what we found is that the lawyer actually hires the accountant to do a lot of the work anyway. Our accountant has a buddy who is a lawyer and he is doing the small amount of "legal work" for us for about $750. 
Find a good CPA to do your estate. You'll save a bundle and make one less lawyer a millionaire.


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## PaMike

Yup, the lawyer settling an estate is a joke. Apparently back in the day lawyers always got a percentage of the estate value. That was common practice. Maybe that was ok back in the day, but now especially where I live, and JD lives, its common to have an older person who has 1 million plus in real estate due to the land inflation...When my grandpa died in 05 the lawyer wanted a percentage. He tried to bill for 80K! Ended up settling for 40K. At $350 an hour that's 114 hours of work. Nothing was even sold. Some assets went in a trust and the rest went to my Grandma. Just imagine if a lawyer has a couple estates like that to settle every year. 40K to settle an estate times 5 or 6 a year. Not too bad....


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## Mike120

snowball said:


> Damm IT. Mike 120 don't make any more posts like that with out a warring 1st I just about peed my pants when I read that last bit. LOL but that is so true....Reminds me of a old saying..." The only thing worse than a lawyer in a room is 2 lawyers and only 1 bullet


Sorry, a bit of levity and the use of an old joke for an otherwise serious subject.

In reality though, a consultation and a review of terms/conditions should not cost that much but could have a huge payback. This is not an estate situation. I have an annual review of my boarding contracts and reviews of any consulting contracts that do not follow my established T's & C's using different lawyers. Deciding the scope of work, time to be spent, hourly rate, and deliverable is just part of the discussion. My billing rate is often much higher than theirs but I feel that I bring more value for the consulting I do...........


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## swmnhay

Holy crap I've never heard of a lawyer working on estate for percentage.Going threw it now myself and I think it will end up around 0.5% of the estate for Lawyer,CPA,Apraiser,Financial Advisor and Personel Representive.Lawyer is getting $160 hr and CPA $100 hr.Appraiser gets a flat fee.PR working for nothing.

And it doesn't much matter on time it takes to do everything if its 100,000 or 10,000,000


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## snowball

You don't need to be sorry Mike 120 I needed a laugh . I could tell a story about how I just got a 4000. bill from this dirty SOB lawyer In regarding a review of a insurance policy . the total yearly cost of the policy is only 1500. this no good dirty crooked SOB milked this review like a herd of Holsteins. But at least my insurance's lawyers are fighting him over the bill.That taking a percentage of the value of the job you are hired to do is BS.... I swear the 2 things that they see as a gold mine for them to cash in is a Estate settlement, and a divorce They know how to play on a person's emotions


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## snowball

I will say this about lawyers I can't come close to matching Mike120 Intercourse Pa. post which in my mind is so true it really isn't funny because, I've had to deal with them as landlords and hire them when needed probably been around 30 or 40 of them in my life time only EVER had 1 maybe 2 good ones . But this is just my simple take on them . They are people that like to argue with other people then they realize they can basically name their price for doing something they enjoy, then that is not enough power for them so they enter in to politics at a lower level. still need more power so state government next while scheming some extra cash along the way. then still more power& cash next stop federal government. now more power and still more cash and OOH by God Look I got buddies here lets have a BIG FRICK"N SCREW THE TAX PAYER ORGY.and we will make some more laws to protect us as lawyers....And that my friends is the Attorney's food chain . And my entry level Civics class lesson . Taught by a Life time client who has Hired the Law Firm of "DEWY CHEATEM & HOW ".


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## Grateful11

Do you guys ask around for recommendations on lawyers or just go to the yellow pages or pick one from TV ad or something?


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## Grateful11

JD3430 said:


> I used to think that, too.
> When my mom was dying, we asked our family lawyer for a price to settle our estate. He gave us a estimate of "10-20% of the estate value". According to other we talked to they said that was "cheap".
> Let's say you have an estate over $700,000 for example. You're telling me $70-140,000 is cheap??? I don't think so.....
> We ended up hiring our family accountant and what he's charging us is so small, that the 3 siblings are thinking of paying him more. And really what we found is that the lawyer actually hires the accountant to do a lot of the work anyway. Our accountant has a buddy who is a lawyer and he is doing the small amount of "legal work" for us for about $750.
> Find a good CPA to do your estate. You'll save a bundle and make one less lawyer a millionaire.


I think you need reread what I said because no where did I say absolutely anything about lawyers being cheap. If you're going to quote me don't add in things that I haven't talked about.

Can your CPA draw up Wills, give someone Health Care Power of Attorney or create a Trust Under Will?

BTW: We have an excellent attorney and CPA. Personally I think our CPA is a tad high.


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## snowball

Grateful11 said:


> Everyone hate lawyers until they actually need one, whether it be to settle an estate or get someone out of a ticket. Then they're like, "anyone know a lawyer I can trust".


7 famous words that are like asking for the 8th wounder of the world... "Anyone know a lawyer I can trust " Again 2 words that should not EVER be used in the same sentence LAWYER and TRUST.. that is almost Impossible...... I hate them even when I need 1...


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## Grateful11

snowball said:


> 7 famous words that are like asking for the 8th wounder of the world... "Anyone know a lawyer I can trust " Again 2 words that should not EVER be used in the same sentence LAWYER and TRUST.. that is almost Impossible...... I hate them even when I need 1...


Well I know 2 I can trust, one I've known since we were kids and he settled my parents estate which involved their homeplace and a house on Oak Island plus all their others assets. His final grand total was $7800. The other one settled my FIL's estate and handled the affairs of our youngest son when he passed way almost 4 years ago. Sorry but I do trust both of these guys and the second one has given us advice numerous times for no charge.


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## swmnhay

Grateful11 said:


> Do you guys ask around for recommendations on lawyers or just go to the yellow pages or pick one from TV ad or something?


I talked it over with my Financial advisor who deals with a lot of lawyers.Has seen there work and knows what they charge.There is huge differences in what they charge,some just create more paper work to rack up hrs that is not needed.


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## snowball

That's good Grateful I'am glad you have 1 you trust.I'am not wanting to debate you because I'am sure not all are bad either...... I just have had my fair share of crooked lawyers in my 40 yrs in the world as a adult. The worst have been landlords that I have rented farms from. you have to hire another lawyer just read their home brewed leases they never want to use the standard lease forums everybody else uses. NAAA that would be to simple and makes it to fair for the tenant. They have to throw in their Voodoo mumble jumble.. that they some how in the event you make money off their ground you cash rented from them . They have a hided option to screw you out of any profits made By You From this lease.. Because God forbid anyone else in this world other than them is allowed to make money in a deal which they are a part of ...Mike120 is so right they should all live in Intercourse Pa. Where they can Out build each other's Manson on Rectile Rd. and Bend YA over Blv... I'am done posting about the criminals. They make me mad just talking about them ... Snowball.. over&out...


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## JD3430

snowball said:


> 7 famous words that are like asking for the 8th wounder of the world... "Anyone know a lawyer I can trust " Again 2 words that should not EVER be used in the same sentence LAWYER and TRUST.. that is almost Impossible...... I hate them even when I need 1...


One other thing I can't stand that they do is "settle" all the time. You want a hunk of someone for screwing you over and they call you back all excited and they got you basically nothing and you owe them thousands.
98% of lawyers are scumbag opportunists looking to make stoopid money off people's misfortunes. They get the gas can outlawed and 500 caution labels put on everything we buy. They're arrogant when you talk to them and they try to use all their intimidation BS on you when you work for them. They charge "30%" for almost anything they recover-yeah that's fair...lol
Grateful11 knows the other 2%.


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## Mike120

Grateful11 said:


> Do you guys ask around for recommendations on lawyers or just go to the yellow pages or pick one from TV ad or something?


In this case, the need is for a Real Estate Lawyer. Talk to Real Estate Agents and Title Companies and ask them who they would use. They typically know who is good and reasonable. If you have done your homework and written down all of the terms and conditions, it can often be done with a simple review and edit into a legal framework. A lawyer is typically only a small business person and consultant, the more prepared you are with defining and framing the problem, the better he/she can help you.


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## JD3430

Mike120 said:


> In this case, the need is for a Real Estate Lawyer. Talk to Real Estate Agents and Title Companies and ask them who they would use. They typically know who is good and reasonable. If you have done your homework and written down all of the terms and conditions, it can often be done with a simple review and edit into a legal framework. A lawyer is typically only a small business person and consultant, the more prepared you are with defining and framing the problem, the better he/she can help you.


I buy/sell all my property this way. I know a guy who owns a title agency and he also has a real estate law degree. I skip over all the "6% commission" nonsense and sell myself. Saved probably over $100,000 in my lifetime buying/selling myself. 
When it comes Tim to settle, my title agency can get all the pare work together, arrange settlement, etc for couple thousand bucks. 
Paying some divorce' with a convertible jaguar $15-25,000 to sell a house if pure nonsense. The paperwork ain't that tough to do.


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## Grateful11

I had planned on not getting too deep into this but here goes.

This is just my opinion but I don't understand all this land stuff as far as parents selling their children land for a profit. I was always of the thinking that one worked hard to get what you got and you pass it along to the next generation in hopes that they would make the operation even better. I mean whatever we have will go to our son when we're gone and he can do whatever the heck he wants to do with it. We'll be gone and be with others that have gone on before us. My late FIL paid his siblings a fair amount that they all came to an agreement on at that time, I think it was sometime in the 1950's. The farm has been in the same family for over 100 years. My FIL lost his Father when he was just a teenager and he was basically the only one that wanted anything to do with the farm, so he and his mother built up quite a nice place that at one time was milking round 40 head, when you could raise a family on 30-40 good milk cows. In 2003 my FIL was getting to the point where he just couldn't deal with the daily 365 days a year chores and milk prices were terrible. He decided to sell the herd. My wife agreed to the sellout as long as she could keep 7 prime Holstein heifers she had raised and that would let her start a beef herd by breeding them to a Polled Hereford bull. Now the herd size has grown substantially and she is managing the operation with our son being the owner. The guy that bought out the milking herd said he would give my FIL $500 more per head for all the herd if he could have those 7 heifers. FIL said no. He had promised her she could keep them and that was that. Even though our son has a degree with honors in Biology and Pre-Med it looks like he's going to be a farmer even though we all thought he would be a Doctor someday, but that's ok if that's what he wants do to.

The northern lawyers must charge a lot more to settle estates than some southern lawyers. Our family attorney settled my FIL's estate for about $10,000 and I'm talking about a fair amount of stuff that had to be settled including a trust that had to be set up for our sons in which the farm was left to them when they turned 25. Unfortunately our youngest passed away at 21 so that left a sole heir. I'm talking about almost 100 acres of land 1/2 mile from an interstate, one tract had 85 acres so you could imagine what that is valued at. Our lawyer is well thought of in the area and a great guy to deal with. He said recently when everything was finalized that he cut his fees a bit because he knew what we had been through. In a course of 3 years we lost my FIL in 2008, both my parents(within 3 weeks of each other) and then our son in 2011.


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## hillside hay

Sounds like we are facing similar challenges Pa Mike. My situation began with the herd selling whilst I was overseas and the farm being placed in CRP . My views on that program are well documented lol. Then after it came out of Destroy the Land Initiative the best ground was given in a long term lease to one of my cousins. The shale outcrops and wet holes were then rented to me who had to clear the brush redo drainage restore fertility at just off the top of my head around 3000 per acre so far. I didn't mind that so much as my Dad said if I could make it work on that ground I could make it anywhere. He had a price that he would sell the farm to me after my cousin's lease expired. It was a fair price for the area. Alas, he passed before the lease did. So, my Mother, aware of the agreement between my Father and me, renews my cousin's lease at the current free price, raised mine, and made known she wanted twice the value of the entire farm for about 1/8 of the property and retain all OMG rights. I honestly thought she was pulling my leg and had a good 'ol belly laugh at that. I then stated that due to the increase in rent I would have to move some cattle onto some of the old pastures which by the way I am paying to basically not use at the moment. She balked at that. Worried about them getting out. Now mind you I was one of the most sought after fence builders in the area in my misspent youth. I also was deemed responsible enough at the age of 14 to run the farm while my family went on vacation for the summer. At first I thought "OK I probably should pay a premium given the headaches I gave my folks growing up" I had an extreme overabundance of energy and a penchant for trouble. Thank God I made it through that period in life. That said I was the only one of the kids who has any desire to continue farming. Oh they wanna come up and use it recreationally but that is as far as their interest goes. My folks have helped a lot of people get their start and are genuinely nice folks without a shred of malice in their hearts. So, I don't know why our folks have a different set of rules strangers vs. their own children. I find it odd that I am only renting a small portion of the farm I grew up on and have to rent two other farms for the acres I need. Also the rent I pay on those farms is less than what I pay at the home farm. In conclusion, you aren't alone in this situation and it seems to be the way things go these days. Don't get bitter about it they are still your folks. In my situation I plan to continue renting the home farm in part and hopefully in whole some day and then settle up with my siblings when that day comes. Hopefully its a long long ways off.


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## Vol

Excellent outlook hillside....I certainly will be pulling for things to shake out your way in the end.

We all need to take certain things from this thread and give honest thought to being fair to our heirs....it is not hard for a reasonable man or woman.....just do the right thing and do not complicate it with favoritism.

Regards, Mike


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## carcajou

Regular communication prevents alot of headaches later on. My siblings and i get along fine and understand each others expectations and wishes. Unfortunately none of us are really know how to talk with our parents. They have never shared their dreams, hopes, wishes etc with us. They have told us they want the 5 generation family farm to remain in the family but with no clear plan it will likely be sold off someday.

If you are young and want to eventually take over your family farm i urge you to find a way to discuss this and other important issues with your parents. And to try and get something written down, it helps.


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## PaMike

Latest Update:

We have had several talks with my parents. We told them we will not buy the bottom land that is accessible only through the neighboring development due to the fact that may parents are keeping the road frontage. The only way we would buy the land was to have road frontage or a legal right of way. They didn't want to give us either.

We offered to buy the prime land on top that has road frontage. My parents only want to sell that land if it is preserved so now they are somewhat stuck because the preservation group will only preserve the small prime piece if the rest of the farm is preserved....

Dad said if I don't buy the bottom land then we will be signing a legal lease. The lease is very one sided, and he made it very clear that I am a tenant and he is the landowner. He doesn't have the same concept of family farm that I do of everyone working together to make decisions and get the job done...

We will see where it goes.....

My parents then told me two days later they are going to look at helping my brother buy a house. They had helped him with down money for a house 7 years ago when he got married. He had no savings...My brother lived in the house for a bit, then got a huge mortgage and bought a second bigger house. Last year he sold the bigger house for less than what he paid for it. He let the second home go into forclosure because he owed more than it was worth...Now he has no savings or credit so he has to have my parents cosign on the loan, or hold the mortgage...He is 36 years old....

We shall see how things shake out....


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## Vol

You, PaMike, are in a very tough situation. Parents should not show partiality....but some do. We do not get to "pick" our parents. Perseverance will/can be your saving grace. Don't ever lose your cool....when things get hot just peacefully and quietly pick up and wait for more peaceful times. This will be a test of your character. Good Luck.

Regards, Mike.


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## hillside hay

I hope things work out for you Mike. Possibly over time the situation will change. I gotta echo Vol. " sounds like a tough spot"


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