# Foxtail and Crabgrass control prior to reseeding into weak OG/KBG pasture



## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

I have about 20ac of very weak KBG/OG planted fall 2017. I believe the wet weather caused it to do poorly. I had hoped that it would pop up stronger this spring, but it did not do so, and I'd like to replant into it this fall. Rather than burn it off and start completely over, I was looking to spray the broadleafs and then replant as close to 8/15 as reasonably possible.

If I use Weedmaster, (dicamba/2-4D) I need to wait 30 days, according to label. This puts 'latest' spraying 1st 2 weeks of July, in order to overdrill Mid-late August.

I spoke with my Extension agent, and he said to do it as late as possible, to avoid opening up more ground for foxtail and crabgrass which I saw as a problem in this area, last summer. Foxtail in this area was bad late July. So... I'm in a pickle.

I know I've missed the 'pre-emergent' timing for crabgrass and Foxtail, but is there a POST EMERGENT which I can use but still plant both OG and KBG into in late August?

This 20 acres has me flustered, and I've spent more time trying to understand what is going on here, than on everything else put together.

I'm taking soil samples once again, but they've been good for pasture when tested 2 years ago (prior to initial planting). It might be that my best course of action is simply to burn this area completely off, and reseed from scratch. I'd like to avoid it if possible, but I want some good grass/pasture next year.

Post emergent cost might be prohibitive on such a scale, which might preclude anything other than just burn and repeat. But I'd like to know your thoughts.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

FWIW-I had a similar situation with timothy some years ago. Had a speedwell infestation, thick timothy some places thick speedwell others. Thought I could selectively treat and overseed. Had to wait to overseed due to the residual. Wish I had just burned it and gone back to do timothy over. Would have saved time and money. I am thinking that you would be better off burning it off after second cutting, then again just at plant. just my 2 cents


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

So, last summer, I ended up spray Paraquat in Early August and seeding heavy OG/KBG. This spring... it was like I was never there. There might be another 20% thin, sickly grass where I drilled.

I was so frustrated I was working in my shed and saw my little 'yard' spreader and a 1/2 bag of left over Scott's turf builder/weed control, that I'd used for my lawn. I dumped it in the hopper and proceeded to fertilize a 50x50ft square in the poorest area of the pasture.

IT GREENED UP dramatically. Even though 3 separate tests say everything is in 'good' range in this pasture, it made a difference. So I sprayed Brash on the weeds, as there is quite a bit of weed pressure and then put on Urea 100lb/ac. That was about 2 weeks ago, and I think I needed to go 150lb. It helped, but there is a clear difference between where I ran around with my little push spreader, (which did an awful job BTW... strips back and forth). The push area got both the Scott's and the 100lb/ac.

I'll be cutting some closeby OG/KBG pastures for hay and fertilizing immediately after, as those did not get any first go around. Would you recommend adding another 50-100lbs to the weak 20ac? Probable application would be last week of May, I'm guessing.

This pasture has been the most frustrating thing I've dealt with on the farm. It has quite a bit of foxtail in an area, and I'd like to treat that if possible. I think Prowl is the only thing at this stage, although if you have other ideas, I'd appreciate it.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Dadnatron said:


> So, last summer, I ended up spray Paraquat in Early August and seeding heavy OG/KBG. This spring... it was like I was never there. There might be another 20% thin, sickly grass where I drilled.
> 
> I was so frustrated I was working in my shed and saw my little 'yard' spreader and a 1/2 bag of left over Scott's turf builder/weed control, that I'd used for my lawn. I dumped it in the hopper and proceeded to fertilize a 50x50ft square in the poorest area of the pasture.
> 
> ...


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I have a thought about your soil test, but iPad doesn't always work the best.

Here is what my thought was, from this article (the Rodney Dangerfield of fertilizers):

https://hayandforage.com/article-3021-Potassium-helped-turn-this-hayfield-around.html

I'm not as handy with I-pad, copy pasting it seems. 

Larry

PS, probably aged myself again, mentioning someone like Rodney.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Dadnatron, I had a friend that was one of the finest men I ever knew. He was an ole timey farmer in the best of ways. We were talking about a field near me and the weeds in it and he said, the issue there is the ph. I knew he may have seen the field but past that he no data on that field. Don't remember now all he said on the ph but remember his point he was making, the ph favors the weeds and not the crop. Can you find out what is the most desirable ph level for the grasses you want to grow and the worst ph levels for them and the same for the weeds you are fighting. Might be possible you can find a ph level that will work good for your kbg and og and not for the foxtail and the crabgrass.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Here is another article from the same mag on growing grass' that might be of use.

https://hayandforage.com/article-2989-Grasses-are-talking-Are-you-listening.html

Larry


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

Hay Master, those articles are interesting and would explain why things seem so odd on this field and the one right next to it is doing well. This field has may large 500yo+ trees on it, making it more of a 'big farming' problem. It could be that the open fields were fertilized differently, even though I have treated them the same.

Now that you mention it, I do believe there was a small Potassium defecit on this part, but everyone said to basically ignore it. After reading those articles however, it might be that it has much more of an effect than anyone recognizes. And, the reason that 100lbs of Urea didn't do what I would have expected.

I think I'm going to have them reapply 100-60-100 to all my grass after cutting. See if that bumps things better than just the 100N.


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## Mellow (Jun 22, 2015)

Don't forget the secondary nutrients like Calcium, Sulphur and micros. P & K also take a long time to work into the soil profile if not doing tillage.


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

This spring, I had an additional 150 urea put on this problematic field and it did better.

I am going to have 2T lime added, as I took a couple bags of lime and lawn spreader spread it over a small area. It had almost the same effect as fertilizer did. The guy who does my spray/spread said the lime effects the pH which allows for some nutrients to become more available. Makes sense... even though the pH on soil tests are within range for OG/KBG.

I'm trying to develop a plan for this next year, as this year has been the first time I've actually felt like I had a movement forward. There are certainly areas which I believe need more fertilization and lime, but even in those, I actually had some OG growth.

One thing on most of my pastures... almost ALL the grass I see is OG. Even though I planted both OG and KBG together each time. I'd like more of a 'sod' than bunch pasture as this is essentially purely for horse grazing. I quit haying the pastures and keep it clipped to about 10-12" every 2 wks. That helped with weeds, but I recognized in the last couple weeks, I needed to spray at least once. I still had quite a bit of weed pressure when the OG slowed down for the hot months. Is there a 'warm season perennial' I can add for summer growth? I'd also think about adding Endophyte free fescue (I have it in some areas). but I'm not sure I will be able to get it to grow enough in the OG. 

Do you have a recommendation for pasture spray? broadleaf is primary. I'd like to get the Foxtail addressed, but I think I'll have to go Prowl for that, which might address a lot of the broadleaf as well. But I missed that opportunity on these pastures. (I did spray it on my alfalfa/OG stand and it helped quite a bit on Foxtail pressure, although it didn't completely resolve it.)

I've used Brash/Weedmaster... but was thinking Pasturegard after reading this article. 30 and 60day control was significantly different between the 2... but also price.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

If it were mine and you are spraying the pastures separate from hay I would use the new Grazon called Duracor. It has a residual but if you are not moving hay off the area to sell, it is not an issue and it is real easy on grass. Depending on the broad leaf you are going after, I would spray the first or second week of October, maybe the third for winter annuals. They have to be emerged but they should be by then and small enough to kill easily. Also, quinstar at 3 pts plus a qt of 24d with MSO in mid to late august seems to do a good job of reducing the winter annuals. Quin has a residual in the soil but does not have the off site haying restriction. It has reduced my foxtail significantly over three years. Pasturegard works but is really pricey. It takes very little grazon to clean things up nicely.


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

does it have any grazing restrictions to your knowledge?


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Not to my knowledge


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

@Dadnatron

Depends if you're talking liquid or dry granular Quinstar.

From the Quinstar 4L (liquid) label...










The granular Quinstar label reads completely different in terms of forage/grazing... It can be confusing. This is what is currently on the dry granular Quinstar label.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

yes, but in the long label for quin 4L, there is no mention of restrictions in the pasture and hay section. This is not in the short label. Seems like there were multiple edits to the label that were incomplete.

Quinclorac: 3,7-dichloro-8-quinolinecarboxylic acid . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40.0% (4L-liquid)
quinclorac: 3,7-dichloro-8-quinolinecarboxylic acid...........................................................................................75.00% 75DF (dry flowable)

Same ingredients, sold under different names and multiple replacements. FWIW-I have seeded right after (15days) spraying without issue and have grazed right after spraying without issue. Seems to me that part of the responsibility of a herbicide manufacturer is to maintain clean labels but there is much to be desired in this regard.

the seven day wait on haying is to allow the herbicide to be taken in by the plant or so that is what I have been told which makes sense.


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

That's interesting Rick. I wonder if the "other ingredients" is what makes the difference in labeling then. I found the 309 day harvest limitation for the liquid interesting. Didn't come into question for me though since none of the suppliers I checked with around here could get the liquid.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Well usually the “other Ingredients“ are not active ingredients or they would list them on the label. Same thing goes on with nutsedge control. There are multiple products by the same manufacturer with the same ingredients with different labels, some for turf, others for grasses or vegetables. Apparently, one of the reasons for doing this is release delays, so labeling is a multiple step process


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