# Farmhand accumulator hyrdaulic question



## farmerbob02 (Jul 24, 2016)

I have been reading some forums on here and other people have been having the same issue. I have a farmhand F-100 accumulator with the pump being driven off the flywheel and the ejector will only work on the top side of the adjustment. If you slow it down below half it will push across to pack, but will not eject. One person on here had that issue and it was oil viscosity and I am currently using Case hy-tran in it and they mentioned using 30 weight oil. Is that the case or is there other issues to possibly to look at? If it is the oil, what is the best brand to use in them? The book says Farmhand hydraulic oil, but it doesn't exist, so I thought I would throw this out there.

Thanks


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

Yeah I think they like heavier oil. I added Lucas hydraulic booster to mine and plan to add more to see if it helps to be able to slow down the push off. I still have the issue of the push off being too fast and not being able to slow it down enough. I used to have it pushing over when it was supposed to be pushing the bales off. Might want to replace that long spring where the valve is. I think that's what finally stopped that from happening for me. Check to see how the valve control is working, when the control is pushed down by a bale the two way valve is supposed to be in the opposite position from when it normally is for just the pushover. That spring is important for that, I can't remember exactly how without going out to look at it but I've bales to pickup now so maybe later. I think I got a suitable spring in Tractor Supply.


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

Help hydraulic experts...

Bumping this thread instead of starting a new one. I don't know if the OP solved his issue or not. The manuals do say that if the push-over or push-off lacks sufficient force to switch to a heavier oil. In my farmhand I first put ISO 46 in it. Since then I've replaced some and added several gallons of Lucas hydraulic booster which is supposed to increase viscosity and boost pressure etc. I don't even know where to get ISO 100 around here, not easy to come by but in any case the oil in mine seems to be pretty thick now, I'm sure it's more than 10% Lucas which is what they recommend. That stuff is really thick. Anyway the issues I'm having with my accumulator are....

1) The push-off is working pretty good, last time was able to slow it down so that it was slow enough when baling in 2nd gear where the bales didn't bunch up but I have it slowed down as much as it will allow otherwise the motor stops turning. The push-off is a conveyor chain run by a hydraulic motor. When I have to bale slower it's still too fast.

2) *This is the main problem I'm still having and the most troublesome. *The push-over doesn't always push the bales over far enough. It mostly happens when pushing over the 6 bales to make room for the last two. So it seems like the cylinder just doesn't have enough force to push them over all the way. I had the cylinder rebuilt last year. It's a long thin one. Funny thing is the bushing in the end doesn't even have a set screw or anything to hold it in. The shop that worked on it thought that was strange but I'm sure that has nothing to do with the problem of lack of force.

Is there a way to increase the force of this cylinder? What if I put a smaller hose from the valve to the cylinder? It's 1/2" hose now what if it was 3/8"?

The cylinder is single acting with long springs to pull it back. The springs don't seem to be too strong, I used garage door springs on mine since the original ones were broken or stretched too much. I doesn't come back all that fast so I don't think the springs are too strong. I noticed the older accumulators only had one spring but the newer ones had two like mine.

Relief valve there doesn't seem to be any, if there is I don't know where it is. The older manuals show some kind of relief valve but the newer ones don't show any. My accumulator is a F-100D so it's one of the last ones made.

I 'm no hydraulics expert so I'm at my wits end here.

Edit update: Maybe I found a relief valve adjustment? There's a little plug on the control valve(allen wrench) I just turned it out and there's a spring inside came out with it. It was tightned all the way. Could this be an adjustment? The parts book/manual shows the control valve but there is never any mention of an adjustment on the control valve. Here's a link to the parts book online, have to view as a guest and search F100 Farmhand

http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/79018872


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't know your machine, but here is little (my limited knowledge) information on hydraulic cylinders.

First, in theory only, using a 3 inch cylinder, with a 1 inch rod and a 24 inch stroke.
The piston (inside of cylinder, that the rod is connected to), has a working area on the outgoing stroke of 7.07 +/- square inches of working area, the other side of the piston (rod side) has 6.29 +/- square inches of working area (think of rod area loss). So with 2000 psi of fluid supplied, maximum force (work that can be done) is 14,142.86 pounds (square inches times psi) on the outgoing stroke and 12,571.43 pounds of force on in incoming stroke. That is one part of the equation, strength. Think of this as the power of the cylinder, less psi, less power, smaller cylinder less power and outgoing stroke more power than incoming.

Next comes speed, volume of fluid controls this aspect. First is the pump, you can never get more volume than the pump can produce. Next is the hoses/ fittings / control valves. If the control value has a 5 gpm capacity, it will not matter if the hose/fitting is 10 or 20 gpm capacity (with a pump above 5 gpm), the most you will get out of the hose is 5 gpm. And the same is true for the hoses/fittings, if the hose has a 3 gpm capacity and the value 5 gpm, your captivity will be 3 gpm (using same 20 gpm pump). This is all theory, because you would also need to factor in length of hoses (resistance), oil viscosity, temperature, etc. So think of volume as speed, more volume more speed, less volume less speed, at same given psi.

So with all that confusion, aside speed of your cylinder is influenced by volume, so a 3/8 inch hose would reduce your volume (by almost 50% over a 1/2 inch hose). IF the hose / fittings were the capcity limiting factor. Some cylinders have an orifice (washer with a small hole drilled in it), installed in the line going into a cylinder. This is usually to 'slow' the cylinder down, without giving up power (force).

You mention lack of power "seems like the cylinder just doesn't have enough force" and you ask "what if I put a smaller hose?" IMHO, smaller hose will affect your speed at same psi. I would look at increasing psi (or putting on a larger cylinder) to get the power I needed first and then look at using smaller hose or an orifice (my choice, because I can drill different size hole in couple of orifices and change in /out fast).

I don't know the machine at all, so I would be inclined to say the cylinder is properly sized, just lacking psi or something has changed / broke from factory specs, this is just my 'two cents'. So consider the price you paid, and hopefully someone will correct my mistakes. 

Larry


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Green Fields said:


> Relief valve there doesn't seem to be any, if there is I don't know where it is. The older manuals show some kind of relief valve but the newer ones don't show any. My accumulator is a F-100D so it's one of the last ones made.
> I 'm no hydraulics expert so I'm at my wits end here.
> 
> Edit update: Maybe I found a relief valve adjustment? There's a little plug on the control valve(allen wrench) I just turned it out and there's a spring inside came out with it. It was tightned all the way. Could this be an adjustment? The parts book/manual shows the control valve but there is never any mention of an adjustment on the control valve. Here's a link to the parts book online, have to view as a guest and search F100 Farmhand
> http://www.agcopartsbooks.com/PartsBooksN/Viewer/book.aspx?book=agco/79018872


Have you looked a the hydraulic part #5 on Adjustable control valve attached?

And is the check value working part #2 on HydraulicSystem attached?

:Larry


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

Thanks for the info Larry. I definitely wish to avoid changing to a larger cylinder,would be a job to retrofit it to get one to go on there. Everything else the same a larger bore cylinder would be slower no? The original cylinder on there should be up to the task. When it fails to push them over far enough I usually get off and push them over with a fork so if I can push them over albeit three at a time instead of six I would think they hydraulic cylinder should be able to push them over. It does lots of times too but too many times it fails. My bales are not even that heavy.

My accumulator was missing a hydraulic pump when I got it so the gear pump I have to run it is only a couple years old and has the specs

•3000 PSI max
•SAE A 2 bolt mount
•Side ports: IN SAE 16, OUT SAE 10
•Shaft 3/4" dia x 1 1/4" w/keyway
•CCW rotation
•1.87 cu in displ/rev
•3000 max RPM
•*Rated GPM at 2500 PSI:*
•24.1 @ Max RPM
•14.6 @ 1800 RPM
•Shpg 7 lbs

Farmhand had listed the accumulator hydraulic system as 12gpm at 1500 psi.


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Have you looked a the hydraulic part #5 on Adjustable control valve attached?
> 
> And is the check value working part #2 on HydraulicSystem attached?
> 
> :Larry


That control valve is what you use to control the speed of the bale push-off motor. I often wonder if it is worn but it does still adjust the speed. Don't know if can have any effect on the push off cylinder.

You must mean #20 not #2. Some how I missed that, I'm going to see if I can find it on there, have no idea if it's working or not. thanks


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Green,

First think I would do is get and install a psi gauge, sitting your rpm to get the 1500 psi of the original pump. With 2500 psi, there would be a lot more power and if you run slower, you could have less psi than the original 1500 psi, hence you 'lack of power' (PSI) but still too much volume (speed). You would be guessing otherwise without a gauge. IMHO.

Larry


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Green Fields said:


> That control valve is what you use to control the speed of the bale push-off motor. I often wonder if it is worn but it does still adjust the speed. Don't know if can have any effect on the push off cylinder.
> 
> You must mean #20 not #2. Some how I missed that, I'm going to see if I can find it on there, have no idea if it's working or not. thanks


Yea, number 20, fingers are not attached to head well most days. :lol:


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Green,
> 
> First think I would do is get and install a psi gauge, sitting your rpm to get the 1500 psi of the original pump. With 2500 psi, there would be a lot more power and if you run slower, you could have less psi than the original 1500 psi, hence you 'lack of power' (PSI) but still too much volume (speed). You would be guessing otherwise without a gauge. IMHO.
> 
> Larry


Gonna give it another try to get this accumulator working better this season. I finally got around to installing a pressure gauge, I just added a T with the gauge in the line coming from the pump to the accumulator. I'm getting 1500 psi when the pushover cylinder is fully extended, otherwise the gauge reads 0. Also reads 0 when the hydraulic motor is running to work the push-off conveyor chain. Does that sound right or is something wrong here?

Trying to figure out why the pushover cylinder doesn't always push the bales over all the way especially when there are six of them for it to push. Granted it's a skinny cylinder, not sure the bore, maybe 1 1/2 inches but I just plugged 1.5 inch bore, .75 rod into online calculator and it gives about 2600 lbs of force at 1500 psi. That would be plenty to push over 6 bales I would think.

EDIT: I was just looking up the control valve on AGCO and on one of the parts books it say "relief pressure set at 1500 psi + 50" . I'm thinking of taking the valve off and putting new seals in it, looks like all there is for parts for it are 2 seals. Could bad seals in the control valve be a reason the cylinder cuts out too soon when pushing 4-6 bales over?


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

Green Fields said:


> Gonna give it another try to get this accumulator working better this season. I finally got around to installing a pressure gauge, I just added a T with the gauge in the line coming from the pump to the accumulator. I'm getting 1500 psi when the pushover cylinder is fully extended, otherwise the gauge reads 0. Also reads 0 when the hydraulic motor is running to work the push-off conveyor chain. Does that sound right or is something wrong here?
> 
> Trying to figure out why the pushover cylinder doesn't always push the bales over all the way especially when there are six of them for it to push. Granted it's a skinny cylinder, not sure the bore, maybe 1 1/2 inches but I just plugged 1.5 inch bore, .75 rod into online calculator and it gives about 2600 lbs of force at 1500 psi. That would be plenty to push over 6 bales I would think.
> 
> EDIT: I was just looking up the control valve on AGCO and on one of the parts books it say "relief pressure set at 1500 psi + 50" . I'm thinking of taking the valve off and putting new seals in it, looks like all there is for parts for it are 2 seals. Could bad seals in the control valve be a reason the cylinder cuts out too soon when pushing 4-6 bales over?


So I took the valve and motor speed control off....I guess I will replace the u-cup seals if I can find some the right size somewhere online? The o-rings on the hydraulic motor control should be easy. There's no leak there but I might as well replace them I guess.

The relief valve....It was turned in as far as I could with the allen wrench without putting a pipe or anything on it. Not sure if I can turn it in anymore or not. As I stated above the test gauge read 1500 psi when the one way cylinder was fully extended and apparently the relief valve is supposed to be set at 1500 psi+50. Not sure what the +50 means? Anyway I was thinking could it be the relief valve only works right some of the time and could that account for the cylinder not reaching full extended length at times? Seems unlikely though, I took it out, not sure what could be wrong with it see picture. (attachment last one.) Spring seems alright, not broken or anything.

Forgot to mention the valve is a Gresen 575.


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## TJB (Jul 5, 2016)

I'm not sure what all you have checked on your accumulator. Make sure the bearings are good underneath on the rails on your kick over arm. Make sure it is extending square. It could be that when you have six heavy bales on it it is not kicking over squarely and getting jammed in the rails. Or, does your arm just need extended a bit to make it kick over further?


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

TJB said:


> I'm not sure what all you have checked on your accumulator. Make sure the bearings are good underneath on the rails on your kick over arm. Make sure it is extending square. It could be that when you have six heavy bales on it it is not kicking over squarely and getting jammed in the rails. Or, does your arm just need extended a bit to make it kick over further?


I fiddled around underneath last year, was able to tighten things up with the rollers and rails. I'm almost certain there is no binding going on there. The control arm is extended enough, something like 22 inches before the bale clears it and it snaps back. I also have that problem of not being able to slow down the hydraulic motor enough so the bales don't come off too fast and bunch up. Even sometimes I can slow it down but it doesn't stay that way for long for some reason. I was thinking the two problems could be related that's why I focused on the valve and relief valve now but I'm quickly running out of ideas especially since I tested the pressure and it seemed to be where it should.


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## Green Fields (Jul 25, 2014)

Green Fields said:


> Spring seems alright, not broken or anything.
> 
> Forgot to mention the valve is a Gresen 575.


Spring isn't broken but the ends sure aren't square. When you stand it up it really leans one way. Would love to replace the spring but that doesn't seem likely possible. Parker does make some kind of standard relief kit but I don't think it includes the 575, would be able to tell if there was a picture of it but there's not anywhere and the prices I've seen run from $168 to over $300 for it. lol

Was thinking one could add an external relief valve and block that one off by leaving the ball in it but holding it down with a bolt. But where to put the external relief valve? Also I noticed 1500 stamped on the valve casting right where the relief valve is, does that mean this relief valve isn't really adjustable or just that it was factory set at 1500?

I'm hesitating on going to my local hydraulic repair place, wasn't too impressed with dealing with them when I took the cylinder to get it rebuilt. They sure charged me enough and I had to wait a long time for it.

edit: After further inspection I guess this relief valve is not very adjustable with the tube inside the spring and plus there is no lock nut.

=========================================

edit again: Anyone think maybe my GPM is too high for the valve etc.? Apparently the Farmhand system on the accumulator is made for 12 GPM and since I didn't get an original pump with mine I tried to set it up close to that but ended up more like 14 GPM . And last year I thought maybe if I speed up the pump it would work better so now it's even more than 14GPM. That didn't work so now I'm thinking I should have gotten a bigger pulley instead of a smaller one to slow down the rpms and gpm. Maybe the flow is too fast and that's why the motor usually turns too fast no matter how I adjust the control?

============================================

Update. Got it working better now. I did four things but what I think helped the most was getting a bigger pulley and getting the GPM closer to the designed 12 GPM. I tightened down the relief screw some but it didn't change the psi at all, so now I know it's fixed at 1500 and the relief is definitely not adjustable. I replaced the seals in the valve but I don't think that did anything as it wasn't leaking anyway but since I had it off I figured I'd change them. I found a small leak in the short hose between the valve and hydraulic motor. I don't know how long it was leaking, didn't notice it before, I don't think that really made a difference as far as function. It definitely pushed the bales over better it moved slower but seemed to have more power consistently and I was able o slow down the push off chain like never before. Still had a few hiccups though.


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