# Questions on planting spring alfalfa



## Feed Hay (May 30, 2008)

I have an eight acre field a neighbor said I can bale next year. However it is just a grass field and not a very good one at that. I figure I would replant it since it is free. He said I can have it for as long as I want.

So, I am thinking of taking the old three bottom moldboard plow I have and plow it up and prep it for alfalfa. I am thinking oats for a cover, which should give a good yield cutting for the first year and maybe one more cut that would be alfalfa. Then I can always fill in some OG later in the sparse areas.

A friend told me I should just spray it and no till in the alfalfa and oats.

What do you guys think? Burn it and no-till it or plow it up as I originally thought? I figured an old grass field needs plowed up and worked up.

Oh, by the way, I will soil test it next spring, thinking it will need a good shot of fertilizer. Hopefully the ph is OK, that worries me some. Thinking tilling it would be a good time to spread some fertilizer before planting and work it in some.

TIA


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If it needs lime figure six months for it to work. Depends on the field itself if no till will work. I've had good luck no-tilling alfalfa under certain conditions, but if your field is rougher than a cob then by all means plow it and work it smooth. No sense in no-tilling it only to beat your equipment to death later.


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## filshill (Dec 29, 2010)

what pH and ppm of P do you usually have before planting the alfalfa ?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

It would be best to take that soil sample now rather than later, if the soil is not frozen. If the field needs limestone to correct the pH to about 6.8 to 7.0, that lime works best when mixed into the soil, first by disking thoroughly, and then follow by moldboard plowing to get it mixed into the 6-inch depth.

If you cannot locate a reasonably priced ECCE 100% limestone, use of a coarse limestone such as ECCE 60% will take a while to change the soil pH. So, if the field needs limestone for alfalfa you have to do it now, which you probably cannot do because of snow cover or wet soils, or wait on the alfalfa until next fall or the following spring after the pH has been properly adjusted.

Also, if the soil is low in plant-available phosphorus, ideally you should lime to correct the soil pH first, and later apply the needed phosphorus and incorporate it into the soil later so that the phosphorus does not become tied up as aluminum phosphate in an acid soil or as calcium phosphate when applied before the limestone has had a chance to react.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

The very least I would do is disc it a few times. Its too bad you couldn't have fall plowed it. You want to be out there seeding as soon as possible in the spring, so to plow and then disc and field cultivate, it'll take a little time to get your seed bed prepared. You can probably get in a lot earlier to spring plow than we can here in the northern Iowa/southern MN area. Normally I plant spring alfalfa with oats as a cover crop. The previous year is usually corn. I don't touch the stalks till spring then disc them a couple times and drill the new seed, then roll.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You'd have a 0% chance of plowing a growing stand of orchardgrass around here (SE PA). What will happen here is that the plow will go through and about 15% of the sod will fall back into place. The plow will roll it one way, then it will roll back over to where it was, or close to where it was. And then a guy has to disk it about 3-4 times to make something decent out of it (it won't be perfect, but I would get frustrated). If it's dry the spring planted alfalfa will make nearly no crop in the planting year. If the ground is rough, or you insist on plowing, or it HAS to be plowed, I would have a crop inbetween the grass and the alfalfa. That way you will have the opportunity to work the ground thouroghly twice, and the rain will let it settle. I guess you could plow it and then disk it, and then leave it go for a few months. We experimented with nearly everything and finally got a no-till drill. Most of our alflafa gets no-tilled after the grass gets killed, or I will plant either soybeans or a small grain while the grass decomposes. But maybe the plow will work better there than here?

Rodney


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

The best thing to do is to get your soil sample now and get limed applied this winter. In the spring wait for the grass to green up and then spray with round up. Then plow the sod and lime under, disk several times, then have a drag to smooth the ground out and make it firm then plant. I do 90% of my plantings this way. If the ground is real smooth and you don't need alot of lime then you can get by with out plowing in the lime and just surface apply it. You would have to spray the field first before no-tilling. I have had good luck doing that also. I rent a no till drill when I need it.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I have never heard that you could not plow orchardgrass, curious why you would have such a problem, in my area it plows up real good?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Hayray, I think Rodney probably said that because of the type of soil he has in that region. I would think that in Illinois, the soil would be black and plow pretty easy. Mike


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Plowing before disking applied limestone into the soil likely will not thoroughly mix the lime with the soil. If this soil/grass can effectively be disked before plowing, there is a better chance that the lime will be uniformly mixed with the soil. I tried to attach a graph made in PowerPoint that shows this, but it was not the right type of file (.ppt) to use in this web site.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I think you would get a big mess trying to plow after disking in sod. Seen it done and you end up with a bunch of furrows that do not turn over. I myself don't plow much of anything anymore, I have a real heavy disk that works fine, takes several more trips across then field then if I plowed but it for sure does a better job fitting the field then disking after plowing. My only concern is whether or not he has a heavy enough disk to do the job. If you have a light disk that loosens up the trash on the surface then it might clog your plow up.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

On all of my new hayfields, I run a big offset disc over the ground going both ways, then a finishing disc harrow, then a culimulcher to finish the smoothing process. The harrow also has smoothing tines on the back. Once the ground is smooth, I no-till from that point on and never do anything to the land but run an aerator over it.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

Great conversation here...vhaby, if you send me the graph I will have Zach get it loaded for you. He is the web guru in the house.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

hayray - the problem we had was that the sod lumps would turn back over right after the moldboard roled them off. Very frustrating to sit on the tractor and see the sod being turned over, and then see it flop back again. Like a dead furrow, or when the plow would trip. I'd have a bunch of sod lumps all over the field. I tried it without spraying (in the days before R-up was commonplace) and then we were killing it and then plowing, and finally I tried to disk it first and then plowing it. Each method had about the same % of success, and finally we bought a NT drill and I have been doing either small grains, or NT the alfalfa. I just have to think about how fuel we used to burn to plow and disk and disk and disk some more, and the field would not be as level or smooth as it used to be. With all of the disking involved, the ground got so fine that the smallest bit of rain would make large gullies. We'd try to do all of this in summer. Spring plantings are a real crap shoot in this area - I've had them work wonderful, and I've had to mess with them for 2 years before I got anything. But like was said, on flat, deep ground none of my problems would be an issue. But it's a possibility, that's why I mentioned it.

Rodney


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## Hayking (Jan 17, 2010)

we rip our ground then disk it twice and then harrow it a couple times with a 16 bar mcfarlane then run a land plane over twice going one way then the other then seed it with a brillon works pretty good.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

land plane?


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## Blue Duck (Jun 4, 2009)

Land plane pic


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Re: My previous post about lime incorporation by disking followed by moldboard plowing to uniformly change soil pH in the surface six-inch depth. This was not done in a sod field but in a conventional tilled field continuously planted to corn on Katy soil in the Texas Gulf Coast Prairie. Converted Powerpoint graph to a .jpg file and attached it to this post.

Soil samples were collected by one inch depths at 7, 12, and 18 months. Disking was done after lime application, again after the 7 month sampling, and the plowing was done after the 12 month sampling.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for posting graph. From what I see it looks as though plowing does a much better job incorporating the lime. The disking seems to quickly modify PH at the surface but much beyond a couple inches into the root zone it looks as though plowing did a much better job. Did I miss something? Do you have the Abstract or summary results discussion that go along with this graph?


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Seen those land plans out in Western South Dakota were they needed to make a field perfect for flood irrigation, never knew what they were called.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

hayray,

You correctly interpreted the lime incorporation pH graph. This graph originally was published in the Soil Science Society of America Journal. Reference if you want to pursue it further:

Haby, V. A., W. B. Anderson, and C. D. Welch. 1979. Effect of limestone variables on amendment of acid soils and production of corn and Coastal bermudagrass. Soil Sci. Soc. of Am. J. 43:343-347.

However, the following is an excerpt from a book that I am just completing writing and that will be submitted to Texas A&M Press which has agreed to publish it. Please also read the second paragraph of the excerpt as is relates directly to your original question. The proposed title is:

_Add Dollars to Your Bank Account
_By
*LIMING ACID SOILS*
To
_Improve Crop Growth and Livestock Production_

"Haby et al., (1979) showed that attempting to mix 4 tons of surface-applied limestone/ac uniformly into the top 6-inch depth of Katy soil (Oxyaquic Paleudalf) using an offset disk was ineffective (Fig. 18). Samples collected at seven and 12 months indicate pH was 7.5 in the top two inches of soil and declined to 5.2 in the 5- to 6-inch depth. Turning the soil by moldboard plowing after the 12-month sampling mixed the limestone throughout the 6-inch depth. According to these results, changing the pH in the 6-inch depth of strongly acid soils under no-till row crops or perennial forage crops by surface application of limestone without any form of soil disturbance will be ineffective in the short term. Incorporation by disking followed by turning with a moldboard plow effectively distributed the limestone throughout the surface 6-inch depth.

Surface application of limestone without incorporation is not an efficient way to neutralize acid soils. Haby and Leonard (2002b) reported that ECCE 72% limestone surface-applied two years before the first harvest produced only 88% of the alfalfa yield compared to the same limestone and rates roto-tilled into the soil 2-inches or 6-inches deep. Incorporating this limestone into the 2-inch depth was equally as effective as incorporating the limestone into the 6-inch depth for alfalfa, and this result hints that activity of Rhizobia may have been enhanced by the shallow incorporation. Surface application of ECCE 100% calcitic limestone immediately before planting alfalfa in fall preceding the first harvest season was only 53% as effective as the earlier incorporated ECCE 72% limestone for alfalfa production."

Hope the Admins of this Blog will not ask me to pay for advertising. LOL


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

So Doc, Does this mean I'm wasting my money by applying lime to the surface of my hay fields? I now no-till, for obvious reasons, all of my new seedings and do not want to disturb the soils. I try to keep my soils from 6.5 to neutral. I have been doing this by applying lime on the surface every several years as needed and it has always shown up as being in my target range. Are my soil tests not correct? Am I not taking my tests deep enough in the soil? I guess I am a little confused. Can you straighten me out? I have read a lot of your research and find it fascinating. You bring a whole new light to the world of having great soil and haymaking. Mike


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I also surface apply for maintenance, a matter of fact I am spreading lime today, I have two days after delivery to get it spread before it freezes. I heard that lime leachs slowly at like a inch per year. He was referring to acid soils also so maybe that is a much different issue then more neutral types. Either way, economics of properly incorporating lime are usually out-weighed by the costs of tillage when a hay field may last 20 years or more.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

What I get from the good DR is how to get that acid soil up to scratch in a hurry. 
What others may be saying is that with a generation or more of applying lime on a regular bacis did the heavy lifting over during past years.

I believe The Good DR was in University research during the great and glorious years. I expect those grand and interesting times may be behind us all now. 
Little or no more research to satisfy curiosity. We farmers will all be the poorer for it's passing.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I was wondering the same myself, we are straight no-till now. On my sand soils I'm not horribly worried about it, everything goes right thru those. It's the heavy clay soils at home I'm curious about. Wondering if they need lime badly enough if it's worth breaking the chisel plow out for.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm taking rodger's side here, I planted a stand of A/O last fall and moldboard plowed the sod under.....I was out there for a month of Sundays prepping that seedbed. That sold didn't roll under anything like I expected. None the less, the 25 acres I got for next year is getting alfalfa....no-tilled!! (pending soil test results and field smoothness)


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

"Hay" Guys,

I appreciate all your responses to this Thread and am sorry if I confused some of you.

The research represented in the soil tillage/pH graph was done on a soil that had a pH of 5.2 and was showing severe manganese deficiency some years (wet years) on corn. The plant pathology and entomology scientists had already looked at the deficient corn and had no answer, so the soils guys were called to look at the situation. Hay Wilson is right, this research was done to quickly neutralize the soil acidity.

Those of you who routinely apply lime to maintain your soils' pH near 6.5 for most crops and around 6.8 to 7.0 for alfalfa are doing exactly what you need to do by applying the limestone on the soil surface and not incorporating it. If the limestone that you are applying has particles larger than 10 mesh (10 holes per linear inch or 100 holes per square inch), you will get little pH change benefit from those rather large limestone particles. However, particles finer than 10 to 20 mesh and smaller will react with developing soil acidity to help maintain the soil's pH.

Earlier work done by the real limestone research gurus such as Dr. Fred Adams in Alabama who edited the American Society of Agronomy Monograph- *Soil Acidity and Liming*, showed that limestone applied to the soil surface eventually changed pH deeper into the soil because, in the situation with hybrid bermudagrasses such as Coastal, applying high rates of nitrogen for this grass increased soil acidity that reacted with the limestone and as a continuing process, eventually did move the neutralization reaction deeper into the soil. The reaction moved deeper more quickly in the sandier soils and more slowly in heavier clay soils. There are some fortunate hay producers like Hay Wilson who don't have to worry about liming their soils because these soils contain native limestone.

Like most of you who have perennial forages on acid soils, We also will surface apply limestone to maintain the soil pH. We were fortunate to find a ranch wherein the soils had been well cared for. We sampled the soils before we purchased the place and to our astonishment, found the pH in the surface 6-inch depth was around 6.5 in all pastures and the soil pH by one-foot depths to 4-feet deep was above 5.5 in all pastures- perfect for alfalfa except where the soils remain wet for prolonged periods during good rainfall times, which is not now. We are very dry in this region.

When we do prep our soil to plant alfalfa, I will disk incorporate the applied limestone in the process of taking out the Coastal bermudagrass.

Here is an image of the unlimed, manganese toxic corn next to corn growing on limed soil:


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Ah Hah. Now I understand. My soil in Va. is heavy red clay and my soil in ND. is loam and has lots of limestone. No need to ever lime there. In fact, you can't even get lime at any of the co-op's. Thanks for clearing that up. And by the way, that picture scared the hell out of me! If I can keep my soils between 6.5 and 7, then I'm tickled to death. Mike


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Allow me to apologize; in the first paragraph of my last blog on this Thread, I mentioned that the corn was showing "severe manganese deficiency some years..."; that should have read "severe manganese *toxicity* some years..." as is shown in the image accompanying that blog. Sorry for the mistake.


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## Feed Hay (May 30, 2008)

Thank you very much for all the great info. I feel like I am taking a college level ag class every time I read the info being added to this post. Never thought the request would generate such great information. Thank you again.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

I would like to echo the "Thank You" by Feed Hay. This is the kind of stuff Zach and I hoped for. If their is anything Zach and and I can do to make it easier to post such data or articles send us a note. I can post these type articles on the front page as well. Love this educational discussion. Keep it coming.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Another question for you Vhaby. Far as PH of the soil, is one form of nitrogen any worse than another for lowering PH? We used to use straight 28% for our tank mixes and spread Urea for the rest of our nitrogen needs. I must admit even with it being somewhat more expensive I preferred applying urea. Hard to beat spreading a 65' foot swath at 10mph, not to mention it's so much safer compared to anhydrous.

With our straight no-till for row crops now using urea is out of the question unless a person could time all their applications to coincide with a rain. We are discussing possibly going to strip till at some point in the future and banding our fertilizer. We've looked at both types of rigs, one that could apply several dry products like 6-15-40 and urea and others that would band just the 6-15-40 and use anhydrous in place of the urea. In our area of the world the saying has always been that anhydrous use will require more lime to keep the PH within a desirable range.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

As long as we are asking the good Doctor questions, I've got another one about lime. With my hay fields I can apply lime and fertilizer like everyone else, but with all my horse paddocks I have a bunch of mini-fields that all vary individually depending on the use, resting, and time between overhauls. Typically I use liquid fertilizer because I can put it down whenever I need, even with horses in a paddock. With granular I can't use the paddock after the application until a rain disolves it, otherwise they'll likely colic. Lime is my biggest problem, I was using a liquid suspension that seemed to do the job but didn't last very long. Within 6-7 months it would be back to acid. Trying to keep it close to netural became a real pain so I quit worring about it. Now I just lime them when I'm overhauling one and can disk it in. Buying lime one ton at a time is expensive though and a pain to handle. Is there something else I can use? How did you guys work with test plots up at Overton?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

mlappin,

Regarding the form of nitrogen and its effect on soil pH, anhydrous ammonia (82% N), urea (46% N), ammonium nitrate (34% N), and urea-ammonium nitrate (liquid 28 - 32% N) all create an average of 1.8 pounds of calcium carbonate neutralizable acidity per pound of ammonium nitrogen applied and converted to the nitrate form of nitrogen in the soil. This means that if one applies 100 lb of N from these sources to the soil and it is all converted to the nitrate form, 180 lb of ECCE 100% limestone should be applied to counteract the acidity formed.

However, you know that not all of the surface applied urea gets into the soil unless that it is thoroughly incorporated by tillage or dissolved and moved into the soil by rainfall within a few hours of surface application. Ammonia volatilization from surface applied urea is the problem, and it is worse when surface applied to high calcium carbonate soils or acid soils that have surface applied and unincorporated lime on top. There now are products such as Agrotain than can be blended with urea at the blending plant to delay/prevent ammonia volatilization. Agrotain also can be mixed with the liquid 28 - 32% N with the same effect. However, realize that doing this adds about 4 -5 cents per pound of N, and the end result is that urea treated with Agrotain provides no more yield benefit than using ammonium nitrate as the nitrogen source, if you could get it in your area.

Ammonium sulfate (21% N) and monoammonium phosphate (MAP, 11-48-0 to 11-55-0)) also contain ammonium nitrogen that when converted to nitrate (nitrified) create as much as 5.4 lb of calcium carbonate neutralizable acidity per pound of ammonium nitrogen applied, or 540 pounds of calcium carbonate neutralizable acidity per 100 lb of nitrogen applied and nitrified. Diammonium phosphate (DAP, 18-46-0) creates 3.6 pounds of calcium carbonate neutralizable acidity per pound of N applied and nitrified.

All of this information is in the "*Liming Acid Soils*" manuscript when it gets published.

So, if one keeps records of the nitrogen source and amounts of N applied, an estimate of the time re-sample the soil for pH and lime requirement can be made to determine if limestone application is needed

You stated, "_In our area of the world the saying has always been that anhydrous use will require more lime to keep the PH within a desirable range._" If this is true, it would only be so because the anhydrous is knifed into the soil and none is lost as volatilizing ammonia if the soil is moist and the slit is totally closed. See my discussion above.

I'm sure you have considered shanking-in liquid N (or anhydrous) and the dry fertilizer materials in the same shank slit, but through two separate drop tubes?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

vhaby said:


> mlappin,
> You stated, "_In our area of the world the saying has always been that anhydrous use will require more lime to keep the PH within a desirable range._" If this is true, it would only be so because the anhydrous is knifed into the soil and none is lost as volatilizing ammonia if the soil is moist and the slit is totally closed. See my discussion above.
> 
> I'm sure you have considered shanking-in liquid N (or anhydrous) and the dry fertilizer materials in the same shank slit, but through two separate drop tubes?


The anhydrous theory most likely was due to the fact that a lot of producers in our area had chisel plows set up to apply anhydrous. Then they'd either apply their anhydrous in the fall or early in the spring. Several other folks in the area who no-till also have the theory that if they get out as early as possible in the spring and bury the knives as deep as possible (on an anhydrous applicator), it will both loosen the soil somewhat and leave a slit so the roots have a place to go and also help the soil to warm faster. All of the above scenarios were usually done when the ground was wetter than it should have been. Also take in account the cooler soils and a very large percentage of the anhydrous was most likely captured.

We've looked at units that place both products (28% or anhydrous) in the same slit like you mentioned. We've also looked at units that place the dry product in the same slit as to be planted in but had the anhydrous knives between the rows. Personally I like the TAPPS system but we haven't looked too far into it yet.

EDIT: content


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Mike120,

You stated "_I was using a liquid suspension that seemed to do the job but didn't last very long. Within 6-7 months it would be back to acid. Trying to keep it close to netural became a real pain so I quit worring about it._"

People selling fluid lime (suspension) usually claim that one ton of fluid lime will do the same job at neutralizing soil acidity as one ton of dry limestone, because of the extreme fineness and reactivity of the suspended lime (calcium hydroxide, sometimes smaller than 300 mesh).

Fluid lime, also called lime slurry, is a combination of very fine lime and 1 to 2% attapulgite clay in water that, when agitated, forms a suspension of about 50 to 60% solids. This material is typically spread using a tank truck equipped with a boom and high-volume nozzles, as you know. With proper calibration, uniform product application can be made with no dust. As with all liming materials, to be most effective, fluid/suspension limestone must be incorporated into the soil.

Fluid lime is effective when compared on an equivalent limestone-material basis with bulk limestone of similar neutralizing value and particle size. At 60% solids including 2% clay, one ton of fluid lime will apply 1160 lb of acid-neutralizing lime that is as effective as the lime used to make the suspension. Thus, approximately 1.72 tons of fluid lime (water, clay, and lime combined) would be required to provide the same quantity of acid-neutralizing lime as one ton of dry limestone of equivalent quality. Evaluation of slurry and dry limestone materials by soil scientists in Alabama in the mid-1900s showed that both materials produced equal results on peanuts when applied at equal rates of CaCO3. Fluid lime is usually more expensive per ton than limestone applied dry due to increased costs for finely ground lime materials, transportation of a material that includes 40 - 50% water, mixing, and product application. Although fluid lime rapidly reacts in the soil because of its fineness, the effectiveness of the weight of particulate material in the fluid for neutralizing soil acidity is equal to a similar weight of a dry liming material with a CCE of 100% that is of equal fineness (ECCE 100%).

In most small plot research, the limestone evaluated is applied by hand spreading- a time-consuming and back breaking process because one must get so low to the ground to apply the dry limestone without it blowing away. You don't want to do that. At first, we tried using a 5-ft wide gandy to apply limestone with an ECCE of 62%, but even that material caked up in the gandy with an agitator in the bottom, and would not flow consistently. Long ago, limestone routinely was applied with 10 to 12 foot gandy drop applicators.


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## wctyilfarmer (Jan 9, 2011)

hayray said:


> I have never heard that you could not plow orchardgrass, curious why you would have such a problem, in my area it plows up real good?


 we have disked usually 3-4 times,plowing would be good in the fall,spraying and 0-till works best for us, then the next year it works real good.


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