# No Till vs. Frost Seeding Alfalfa



## jstrohfus (Nov 16, 2009)

I'm looking for some advice based on actual experience in similar situations to mine.

In Minnesota, I have a 25 acre stand 75/25 (alfalfa / grass) which is coming up on year 3 of production.

When it was seeded by my father (now passed) I think the grain drill plugged on him alot and in some of the areas none of the alfalfa was delivered.

1/3 of the field has fantastic alfalfa density.

1/3 is sparse.

1/3 has hardly any plants at all (all grass).

I hate to rotate this stand out right now for a lot of logistical reasons and I need to keep the quantity or increase it. I will be seeding another field but I need to have a good first crop from this current stand to meet my needs.

My plan right now is to overseed this 25 acre stand in the spring. I know that there will be some autotoxicity kill on some of the field but the majority (2/3) should take well becasue it is so sparse. Certainly on 1/3 of the field where there is really no alfalfa at all this should not be a problem.

I also took a late fall (post freeze) 4th crop so the field is short and should have a lot of ground exposure in the early spring before regrowth starts.

My question is what method to seed with in the Spring?

A) Frost-Seeding
I've read a lot about Frost Seeding and generally it seems that this is a 60% effective method. It's easy and would probably allow the most growth time and give me more quantity in the season with the earlier start (early March). That said, seed is expensive and I hate to throw it away.








No-Till 
I don't have a no-till drill so will require the neighbor to drill that for me if I go that route. They don't do a lot of Alfalfa seeding so I'm concerned that if they put it in that they might have it set too deep and not germinate. Assuming they get the depth right, will no-till over the established sod base work?

I've read that drilling has the best establishment odds but unsure in this situation if that is true. Frost seeding would be very easy for me to do if it worked.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks much!

John


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

My luck with frost seeding is O%

I'd go with no till drill.To get something to grow in sod maybe tough.To much competition and poor seed to soil contact.If you have bare spots more seed will take there.Soil Conservation may have one to rent and do it yourself.

I would mix in some orchardgrass incase the alfalfa does not take.

What part of MN are you in?


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

Fost seeding alfalfa will not work unless you are extremly lucky. Whats going to happen is after you frost seed , Whe it starts to come up ,if it gets cold enough to freeze while the plant is in the crook it wll kill it.You are much better off to drill it in with a no till drill like swm said.
THOMAS


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## Heyhay..eh (Aug 7, 2009)

I believe that for frost seeding to be effective the seed has to go down after the frost and before the snow. This puts the seed on the ground where it gets pressed to the earth by the weight of the snow. Then when the melt comes the seed can be drawn into the earth as it sucks up the moisture from the melt. If you spread seed on top of the snow you will have most or all of it run off with the early melt. Seeds that do catch will be in areas that are low and accumulate run off or in waterways that filter the seed out of the run off.

So I assume that that opportunity has passed which leaves you with some other options.

Scarifying the ground with something like a heavy set of harrows or a very light passing of a tandem disc or an aerator will prepare the soil enough for an over casting of a seed mix. If you follow this up with another harrowing and perhaps even a packing you might solve your problem. This could be done early spring before all the frost is out of the ground which could give you a few inches of thawed soil to work with but yet a firm base.

The next opportunity would be to mix the seed in with manure fertilizer if you have that option. This is a one pass operation once the seed/manure mix is on the field you just hope for a light rain to get things growing. You will have to hope for rain as well if you scarify the soil and follow that procedure.

I have listed the options from least preferred to most successful, in my experience. In my case I have seen yield improvement through all options. My proof is a small field near the farm stead (17a) It is about 18 years since planting and has been renovated about every 5th year with one of the above methods. In fall of 2008 I used the manure/seed experiment and in the haying season 2009 I got 2.5 ton/a and 2 months grazing for 35 head of cattle. Not too bad for a real chitty year for haying!

I just listed the least invasive options that I have tried. Never used an air drill and after that you are into breaking and reseeding.

Depending on where you are in Minnesota your winter conditions will be more or less like mine in Manitoba.

Good luck


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

In theory you're probably correct - where there is no alfalfa autotoxicity will not be a problem, and where it's sparse it won't be much of a problem. The problem that you WILL have is getting seed to soil contact. All seeds that land in/on a sod clump will not grow into producing plants. I think that frost seeding is not really going to work for you. The best bet is the NT drill. Some seeds will still land on/in the sod, but the drill should be able to get the rest down to the ground. there is one university guy that says if you cannot see 10% of the seeds laying on top of the ground, it's planted too deep - that would apply to ones that are not in/on sod clumps. I've never tried what you propose, cause O-grass is really hard to get a drill through, unless it's dead.

Rodney


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## jstrohfus (Nov 16, 2009)

related post: http://www.haytalk.com/forums/f2/overseeding-alfalfa-1531/


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## darrboski (Jun 2, 2009)

In my opinion "which isnt worth much as I am only 24" the only luck i have had has been with drilling. The two times my family has tried frost seeding have turned out some of the poorest production years we have ever recorded off our fields.


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