# NH 450 utility vs Deere 450e balers



## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Hi all, I've read this site for advice for years and finally have a question to ask. Saw some similar threads from several years back but looking for updates on newer models.

I've picked up some more land and can't keep up with square baling 4000 bales like I managed this year (and ended up brushogging some I couldn't get to). No one around to custom hire and it's impossible to find decent used round balers with net wrap for a reasonable price around here. I feed squares to my own stock so all rounds will be sold. The market here is 4x5 dry net wrapped so that's what I'm looking for.

Baling with a Deere 5075e 4wd (a bit over 8000 lbs and low 60s PTO hp) and only doing a couple hundred dry bales so I'm looking at the lighter weight economy models. Only one Vermeer dealer here who I wouldn't buy a can of coke from and the only MF/Hesston dealer also sells new Holland and doesn't like or stock the economy hesstons.

This leaves the NH 450 Utility (not the regular 450) and the Deere 450e. Prices quoted are almost identical, multiple competent dealers for both near me so service isn't an issue. NH has net/twine while Deere is net only but otherwise identical specs.

I'm asking for anyone with experience or knowledge of either one to let me know of any recommendations for or against either of them. I gather the early years of the NH had some electrical problems but they seem to have fixed them from what I can tell. Dealer said it works fine as long as it's directly wired to the tractor battery.

Thanks for any help!


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IMHO, all baler monitors should be hooked right to battery, not just green ones.

As far as tractor, if your ground is level enough it could be a 'get by' tractor.

Now, to the baler, IDK. I'd be inclined to go with NH, with Mike10 & Gear's knowledge of them. But, I'd still go and buy a regular baler (non-economy). I'd even go as far as having a used one hauled in to your place. You can always make smaller bales, than the baler capacity. Net wrap would be a must, no matter the color.

You didn't mention how many RB you would be doing, so with my assumptions, I could have shorted you on the two pennies worth. 

I almost forgot, welcome aboard InPa, I like spending other's money BTW. 

Larry


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## KS John (Aug 6, 2018)

Baling with a Deere 5075e 4wd (a bit over 8000 lbs and low 60s PTO hp) and only doing a couple hundred dry bales so I'm looking at the lighter weight economy models.

Looks like about 200 RBs to me Larry.

I agree with Larry about all monitors being hooked to the battery. I had a issue this year that turned out to be a slightly loose monitor connection at the battery, so always check them.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks Larry and John

Yes, maybe 200ish.

Yeah I like spending other people's too! There's no way I could justify a new standard baler, and used ones are mostly twine only, or as much as new unless it's completely worn out . If it was for my own livestock I'd just buy a used twine baler but twine bales don't sell well here, which is why you can find lots of used twine balers for sale but no one sells net ones unless it's worn out.

Tractor should be ok, dealers here all say it'll be no problem and they sell the economy balers to match that size tractor, and a couple of them aren't shy about telling me not to buy something they don't like. Most of their customers are in areas much steeper than me since I'm real close to West Virginia. I'm using the same tractor now for pulling the square baler and ez trail bale basket and it hauls that setup loaded with 80 bales no problem. Fields aren't big or smooth enough to go fast anyway.

If I had known I'd end up with more land I'd have probably picked up the next size up tractor when I bought it new in 2018 but most farms near here aren't big enough to justify much bigger than 5075e, MF 2600, workmaster 75 and similar. With the 30 acres I'm leasing I'm still only 110 acres. Up north of Pittsburgh and over in Ohio is where you see the bigger stuff. NH dealer I was at yesterday said the new workmaster 55-65-75 are selling as fast as they get them. I'm really happy with my Deere so I don't want to trade it in, and can't afford another new one!

Anyway, until 2007 my dad and I did everything with the farmall H as our only tractor. 2007 was when I went big and picked up a farmall M, mostly because I was tired of fighting over one tractor. Still do all the hay work except baling with those two tractors. Mostly bought the new one because I wanted a loader and a backhoe attachment and I'll be darned if I couldn't find a backhoe that would mount on a farmall H!


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Myself having baled hay for the public since '87 I'd choose a used 4X6 baler over a new economy baler especially for that small amount of rd bales per yr. I personally don't like the hyd tension system on JD economy rd balers.

I bale 1200-1500 bales with my JD '05 467 rd baler that now has baled 27,442 bales. I like the fact of not having to max out my baler when I make only 5.5' tall bales which puts less stress on brgs.rollers & belts than maximum size bales. There are used rd balers with netwrap for sale in other states besides Pa.

I've rd baled with my Kubota M7040(64 pto hp) on level ground when my JD 4255 was getting new pistons/liners this late Spring. My Kubota handled my 467 with ease.

DITTO on attaching monitor directly to battery. The factory convenience plug wiring harness on both my tractors caused netwrap not to function properly so I ran a harness direct to battery on both tractors.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JamesInPa said:


> Hi all, I've read this site for advice for years and finally have a question to ask. Saw some similar threads from several years back but looking for updates on newer models.
> I've picked up some more land and can't keep up with square baling 4000 bales like I managed this year (and ended up brushogging some I couldn't get to). No one around to custom hire and it's impossible to find decent used round balers with net wrap for a reasonable price around here. I feed squares to my own stock so all rounds will be sold. The market here is 4x5 dry net wrapped so that's what I'm looking for.
> Baling with a Deere 5075e 4wd (a bit over 8000 lbs and low 60s PTO hp) and only doing a couple hundred dry bales so I'm looking at the lighter weight economy models. Only one Vermeer dealer here who I wouldn't buy a can of coke from and the only MF/Hesston dealer also sells new Holland and doesn't like or stock the economy hesstons.
> This leaves the NH 450 Utility (not the regular 450) and the Deere 450e. Prices quoted are almost identical, multiple competent dealers for both near me so service isn't an issue. NH has net/twine while Deere is net only but otherwise identical specs.
> ...


Welcome to Haytalk James, where we love to opin.....sometimes, it ain't what we want to hear tho  
If I had to choose, and I don't.....I'd probably go with the NH, only because I know of a few of them out there and they seem to be fairly reliable at this stage of the game. I don't know of anyone with a Deere economy baler, never even seen one at a dealer here....
But, I would be in the camp of looking elsewhere for a good used NH or Deere if I could find one somewhat close.....you may find one that someone traded, repo, wants to upgrade, who knows.....but the issue is the capital expenditure vs the cash flow generated by said capital expenditure. I would feel much better if I could find one for say 12k on the high side. If you cost out that baler based on 200 a year it's gonna be a huge nut to crack, but I know the situation you're in, but I don't think I could justify a new baler. Hth


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## JOR Farm (Aug 27, 2019)

First off I know absolutely nothing about new Holland really not even sure what color they are now. But I know green inside and out the economy isn't much different, little lighter built, and a much smaller pickup and feeder if it was my money I would be hunting a JD 467 468 or 469 mega wide pickup I had a 458 and had constant trouble with tension arms. Swaped to 4x6 still making 5' bales and have no trouble at all. Don't forget trucking goes both ways if you have to haul a used one in when you sell it they may haul it even farther. The world is a small place thanks to the internet.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for the reply guys. Yes, I agree used makes more sense. Problem is that I don't have the ability to travel to look for one (father can't be left alone due to health issues) and I don't know anything about round balers to know what to look for in a used one. So I'd be buying a used baler from someone I don't know sight unseen, not that looking at it would help much as I don't know what to look for. I've looked at enough used equipment locally from private sellers and dealers that they claim is field ready, then i get there and it's got all sorts of things wrong with it. I can't take that risk for something this expensive.

Funny you mention the repos. The Deere dealer has a 457 twine only sitting on their lot that I asked about and they told me they wouldn't sell it to me since i wanted a good one. Turns out it got repoed and the guy who had it got mad about it being taken back and tore out all the wiring, so it needs lots of repairs. So it's a really pretty green lawn ornament. But it still has a $11k price tag on it as a fixer-upper.

Craigslist has people wanting $9-10k for 20 year old 4x4 twine balers.

I guess it's the nature of being in a region where farming declined by the 80s. You can buy new stuff or you can buy 50+ year old stuff. There's a lifetime supply of Ford N and farmall or Deere letter series tractors on Craigslist every day.

New Holland hay equipment is bigger than Deere here so I don't see many used 457, 458, 459 around here. Just old ones like 330. I have a Deere 328 and I'm the only person I've seen here with a green square baler. Rarely see a 4x6 of any type, never popular here.

The one NH dealer specializes in equipment more than tractors and do a lot of used equipment sales so they have some used non-economy ones like 7060s and 450 silage. But I looked at them and they weighed easily 6000 lbs according to their serial tags and I don't want something that heavy because my land lays ok for this region but it's definitely not flat. Plus they are still $19k+ for anything with net.

I'm hoping I might get some custom work in the future as there's some empty fields around here that just get brushhogged and there's no one else around to do it. I like doing hay and I have a teaching job so have May-August to work on it. I never have had trouble selling hay because most people around here sell absolute garbage that clearly isn't dried properly. The amount of times I've taken square bales to someone and been asked to haul off moldy hay they got from someone else is crazy. I'd be embarrassed to sell hay like that. Even in the drought this year I've seen people who got wet hay. They must have been spraying it with a garden hose before baling it to get it that wet.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IDK, your location to these towns in PA, but I'm guessing the new balers you are looking at are over $25-30K. With shipping, perhaps take a look at one of these. You need to realize you have a guy who lives in Michigan, giving you an opinion that got one tractor from Texas and one from Arkansas. 

These are all net wrap machines BTW.

Here's a NH, 6400 bale machine New Berlin PA, less than $20K.
https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/199153203/new-holland-br7060?ST=pennsylvania&CTRY=usa

Watsontown PA, less than $20K, 6200 bales
https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/197674921/2011-new-holland-br7060?ST=pennsylvania&CTRY=usa

Roaring Spring PA, less than $17K, 6340 bales
https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/198881663/new-holland-br7060?ST=pennsylvania&CTRY=usa

All these balers where off the first of seven pages of RB in PA. If you are closer, you could look at Ohio or WV even.

Larry

PS been a couple of years, but freight was $1500 on the Tx tractor for reference.


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## JOR Farm (Aug 27, 2019)

You make lots of good points. I will add the most important thing I have learned from this site is even though geography makes all of us and or situations different "most" members are here to learn and help. I could never pay for all the tips and tricks I have picked up here. So if it is any help to you if you find something down my way I would be glad to check it out for you.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for those links Larry. The NH dealer near me that sells a lot of used has a similar one to those ones:

https://www.fastline.com/farm-equipment/listing-detail/2014-new-holland-br7060-angelo-equipment-perryopolis-pennsylvania/93dc514a-eb3a-4d86-9e4c-6266ed6a6ef6

But that serial tag shows a weight of 2996kg which is about 6600 lbs. That plus a 4x5 is almost the same weight as my tractor and would that be safe on a slope? I usually drop the squares on the ground rather than use the bale basket on steeper ground, rather than risk 2700lbs of baler+ 2000lbs empty bale basket plus the weight of up to 80 bales. I could call and ask him as they'd be just as happy selling me one baler as another but he was steering me towards the economy model which is about 4000 lbs. And my dad and I have bought quite a few used and new things off them over the years so we have a good relationship.

Prices I was quoted for the new balers: Deere (net only) $26,500 and 0% for 60; NH (net and twine) $25,800 and either 0% for 48 or 0.9% for 60.

Thanks for that offer JOR.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Or this other one they have--don't know how someone can buy a baler like this and only do 670 bales in five years!!

https://www.fastline.com/farm-equipment/listing-detail/2015-new-holland-roll-belt-450-angelo-equipment-perryopolis-pennsylvania/87823421-9fb6-43a4-9bd5-ccde00fe5255

But same issue, 6600 lb baler with a 5075e tractor on uneven ground? Bigger tractor is not in the budget unfortunately.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree the 5075 would struggle a bit with the larger baler.....on my ground it wouldn't be an issue. Flatearthers have their conference here every year BTW 

I bought a Krone 4x5 baler for $32k last year from a dealer, it was a 2017 baler, brand new.....

I'd keep a lookin' something will come up....good luck.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Replacing JD rd baler wiring harness isn't that tough a task BTDT several yrs ago. JD 457 baler wiring harness is less than $900. I wonder why dealer wont repair that damaged 457 baler.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Tx Jim said:


> Replacing JD rd baler wiring harness isn't that tough a task BTDT several yrs ago. JD 457 baler wiring harness is less than $900. I wonder why dealer wont repair that damaged 457 baler.


It ain't worth it Jim....it's a 457 that's probably been hung up wet, repo'd, and twine only  couldn't give me that baler....


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> It ain't worth it Jim....it's a 457 that's probably been hung up wet, repo'd, and twine only  couldn't give me that baler....


Your probably correct. What was I thinking?? :wub: I don't even begin to like the ""older JD 5 foot tall only rd balers"". I was concentrating on smaller tractor & HILLS so need for smaller baler '' & I hate the thought of a GREEN tractor pulling a RED rd baler!!!


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Haha! Yeah two separate sales guys told me they wouldn't sell it to their enemy. Don't know why it's still even on the lot.

Saw a few used 457 wide pickup and net advertised not too far away, called one and it was already gone. All the others are silage specials and then I'm getting into the weight issue as they spec at over 5500lbs.

Definitely need something reliable and well maintained which is why I was looking towards new. There's literally no one else I can call and expect to show up if I have a breakdown.

Never owned anything green until I bought the new square baler in 2017. Dad worked at the IH dealer in the 60s and most of the equipment was miscellaneous stuff he bought used from them at the employee discount. The 328 replaced the IH 37 he bought new from them and finally gave out. He was doing 10,000 a year with that and the H back in the 60s. Still have a hodgepodge of stuff but I find CNH and Deere are best for long term parts support so I'm mostly getting that.

Whatever baler I end up with I'll plan to have for 40 years or longer so initial cost is less important than reliability, don't want someone else's mistreated equipment. My stuff doesn't get rained on or run at high ground speeds or beyond capacity so I expect it to last. Don't mind a smaller economy baler and going slower at all, as long as I can expect it to hold up if I use it for what it's designed to do.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I can see someone buying a baler and only doing 100-150 rounds per year. Plenty of reasons; they deal in squares and need a roller to salvage hay before a rain or it's somebody that enjoys hay as a hobby.

As far as the 450 Utility, it is a good machine. An excellent twine baler but net can be iffy. The function is fine, it's when chaff builds up on the twine knife and plugs the duckbill it prevents the net from feeding all the way to the shoulder. I imagine if I remove the twine knife it would be trouble free.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Due to gopher & fire ant mounds there's barely any smooth hay fields in my area. My rd baler takes a licking & keeps on going. Granted I supervise any repairs that my baler requires but none of my balers have ever been back to the dealer.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks BW. How often does it need cleaned? Can't imagine I'd be using it on more than seven or eight acres in a day so if it's just a job of blowing it out every day that's not a problem. Dealer said it had five belts rather than six so there is more space for chaff to fall out since it doesn't have the scrapers like the bigger balers have.

Best money around here is second cutting squares. Those are like gold here and I could sell as many as I can make. Rounding some of the first means I get done fast and leave plenty of growing time for second. Except this year when it didn't rain for months and nothing grew. Took me 30 acres to scrape together 350 bales for the sheep and zero to sell


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

It depends but it's more frequent than daily. There's times when I go 3 bales and then I have to clean it. I sit high enough I can see if the net completely covers the bale. When I see it's missing I clean it and depending on how bad manually send another wrap, you can twine tie it instead of adding net. I have heard of people removing their twine setups on other models but I'm hesitant because I like having two options.

Like I said it's excellent for twine.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

BWfarms said:


> It depends but it's more frequent than daily. There's times when I go 3 bales and then I have to clean it. I sit high enough I can see if the net completely covers the bale. When I see it's missing I clean it and depending on how bad manually send another wrap, you can twine tie it instead of adding net. I have heard of people removing their twine setups on other models but I'm hesitant because I like having two options.
> Like I said it's excellent for twine.


I had similar chaff issues around the duckbill on my 450 rollabelt.....I would guess they are very similar, I think they came out around the same time? I'd feel the same way if I was having problems with the net, or if I was baling my own hay, it's nice to be able to do either. I didn't know the economy had that.....my rollabelt was net only. And it wasn't perfection, but it made a good bale. 
James if ya go to penciling that baler out for that length of time and consider other factors, it's not a bad strategy to go the new route.....just got to make sure it's what will work for you. I wish I had any knowledge of the Deere unit.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

My Utility is nearly maxed option, minus the fire extinguisher mount, spare net holder, and hydraulic header lift which were available options. It was a rollover model for about $500 more than twine only with the itty bitty donut tires. I wasn't looking for net at the time, just an economical baling option because a one man square operation sucks.

It's paid for and I'm not concerned with perfect wrapping because I'm not in the business to sell rounds. Still makes a nice bale and the cows eat it just fine.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for the input guys. Hmm that puts me off of the 450 utility a bit for my purposes as rounds would be for sale only. If they were for me I'd be doing exactly what you did BW and be looking for a low cost twine one. I probably won't use the twine so taking it out isn't a big deal if that definitely fixes the problem, but if it still gums up like Dawg's does with net only that would drive me nuts.

Don't know anyone here with a newer Deere round baler that I could ask unfortunately. Overall I like the two NH dealers better than the two Deere dealers which gives me a bias towards buying the NH, but on the other hand I have picked up a bit of a bias towards the Deere because I've had much better luck with their square balers than NH ones. Virtually everyone around here says to buy NH hay equipment and that JD hay equipment is junk. So when my old baler died I looked for good low-use used NH square balers, and I went through two of them in two years before buying the green one new (no one else here buys them so there weren't any used ones locally). Maybe I just got unlucky but those two years cost me well over $5000 in repairs and trading at a loss. Funnily enough the knotters were fine and never missed a bale, it was everything else that would mess up randomly--never the same thing twice so it wasn't like it was one problem that wasn't being fixed. After smashing my finger on the flywheel when changing yet another shear bolt I switched brands!

On the plus side, I now know how to tear a NH square baler down and rebuild it. Still have a NH 276 as a backup that I got for free out of fencerow and rebuilt myself at a net cost of $700 and 25 hours of labor. Makes a beautiful bale now but I'd never trust it as my only baler after my experiences with the other ones. But man, that thing will eat hay.

I do like my NH haybine and hayrake though, so maybe I was just unlucky on the square balers. Which is why I'm posting here asking for advice in the first place--the "NH is awesome and Deere sucks" I got from everyone locally wasn't real helpful to me last time around. Appreciate all the help, thanks


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The net systems on the RB 450 and utility 450 are different. The utility baler is set up like the BR balers. If you have problems with hay building up in front, then the bale is breaking up while baling. This is a common problem in certain conditions with all belt balers. It is easily correctable by slowing the pto speed and increasing ground speed so more material is added to the bale per revolution.

My advise to you would be to purchase the baler where you will get the best after sale support, whatever the color. A decent dealer probably could have helped BW farms to at least lessen the problem.

If you had that kind of problems with your square balers, then the balers must have had more use then you were led to believe. What models gave you the problems?


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for the input Mike. Good to know it's a correctable problem, makes the choice a bit easier. I agree on picking based on service, I like the NH dealers better on the sales side but both are fine for service and repairs. The sales guys at both the NH are also the owners and actually know the products they are selling and want you to be happy with what you buy so you keep coming back. Meanwhile the random sales guy at the Deere who has been there less than a year didn't know you could get netwrap on the 450e...

One was a 311 and the other a 565. If they had a lot of bales through them they didn't show it, paint was still good in pickup and knotters didn't show much wear or any sign they had been left outside. Came from dealers as well but I think they were bought out of state for resale rather than trade in. Might have just been lemons and that's why they were sold. Or maybe used to rebale rounds or corn stalks or something. Part of the reason why I'm really reluctant to buy used unless I know where it comes from or I'm paying scrap value. I think I just got unlucky though.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I see it all the time where people will buy a piece of equipment without knowing what to look for. Or all they see is shiny paint. If you can afford new, that is the way to go, at least with equipment, tractors not so much.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

What's the importance of having a close dealer for service when 2 HT members have net application difficulties & their "local dealer" didn't state as Mike stated the simple solution was to lower pto rpm's. Only thing I need a dealer for on my hay equipment is parts.

I learned to slow pto rpm's to lower chaff build up between belts when rd baling in certain crops many yrs back.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Jim, it is the nature of the beast. Dealerships are struggling to hire good people, but the hardest part is keeping them. I have said many times, who wants to be covered all over in hay dust on a hot afternoon when there are easier ways to make a living. I also think the hay equipment service dept is also treated as a step child in many dealerships.

While the process of baling hay is a simple operation, the tricks of the trade are learned the hard way. When you have turnover the new people have not yet had the time to figure things out.

You and I have both seen the knowledge that is lost when old farts like us retire. That was my reason for starting the thread on repairing NH equipment. I felt I owed it to our customers and I wanted to make it easier for those that follow me in this business.

I can remember when we took over the NH dealership from and older gentleman who wanted to cut back. I am not kidding you, this person was put right up there with God when it came to square baler knotters. He gave me some helpful hints on what to do, but as I have found you can only be told a portion of the equation and the rest needs to be learned.

The OP did not say what problems he was having with the two balers, but knowing the models he mentioned I can take a guess it was in the feeder area. The rest of the baler is pretty bullet proof with the feeder being the weak link. The reason the feeder is the weak link is because of neglect by the operators. The neglect is not always intentional because in many cases the operator does not know what to look for. Those balers have plastic caps on the bearings which roll in the tracks. Good idea on paper, it cuts down on noise from that area, but the caps wear out or come off. Now you have a tine bar where the bearings are barely retained in the tracks. Add to that, and here I will blame the operators, a loose tine bar chain. The tine bar can then cock and the bearings can exit the track with a not so good outcome. He may have had other issues, which would be unusual, since dollar amount seems high.

I am sincere in telling a person to buy where he will get the best after sales support. I follow this philosophy and I probably am in the minority, I do not shop around. But Screw me once and I am gone.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Mike

I know due to my past experiences of being employed by a dealer I look at repairing farm equipment with a different viewpoint than the average person. Hiring good employees at a dealership to turn wrenches was difficult back in the 1960's-1990's. My guess is it's a lot worse today than back then.

On the other hand I think without my previous farm equipment repair knowledge I couldn't have survived the custom baling business if I incurred extra expense for dealer repairs.

I think the vast amount of knowledge of NH repair tips that you posted is a great asset for HT members & general farming industry.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. You ever have a used car that just nickles and dimes you to death? Constant stupid things going wrong with it? That's what I had. Most of the expense was selling at a loss because I paid dealer premium to buy one that were good condition and had been checked out, which since I plan to keep things forever I don't mind paying a premium up front, and then having to pay a retired baler mechanic to come fix things since I had no knowledge of that design and had hay on the ground and a broken baler. They didn't show any signs of abuse and mechanics thought they looked good after adjusting everything, but then a few hundred bales later something else would break.

Mostly things that as a one-off repair you'd never think twice about but those things had more breakdowns in 2000 bales than my Dad's IH baler that was older than me had in the previous 35 years of my life put together. Feeder issues, random chains would snap, the needles would randomly not retract properly (every time for a different reason), the mechanism that controls bale length would malfunction and I'd have a six foot bale by the time I caught it, PTO knuckles would randomly break. On its own those aren't big issues but I don't have time to screw around with stuff like that every other time I bale. I noticed that the IH and JD use gears or heavy chains for most of the mechanisms that were breaking on me and the bigger NH with the feeder forks seem to be built heavier too. Funny thing is that the 276 which clearly had been poorly maintained is more reliable, so probably just unlucky with these ones. And I was used to baling with a farmall H up until that time so I definitely wasn't expecting more out of it then I should have been. I was raking a rolabar sized windrow and baling with a 165 MF i had at the time and that's well within the specs. I'm guessing the previous owners may have been exceeding capacity and stressing parts, so although they weren't high use balers and everything looked tight and low wear, there was underlying damage from stress rather wear and tear from than high use.

I agree on the part about getting help. This area has massive opioid problems so you combine laziness with drug addiction and you struggle to get the right order at McDonald's 

After your feedback I'm leaning towards the NH but am still open to suggestions or advice!


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Yea, that would make anyone unhappy. If you were snapping chains, then the balers had more use than you thought. If you were baling extremely small windrows it is possible the bale was not filled out on top enough to move the metering wheel. The 311and early 565 balers had small pto drive lines. The early 565 baler had the option for a heavy pto. Again amount of use affects these lighter drive lines. Your 276 has a heavier drive line than the 311 did. The 311 replaced the 273 which only had the light drive line so it was continued on the 311 and then 565. Hay making has changed over the years. What you could get away with in the 70's will bite you in the butt today. Also in the time frame of those balers, 70s and 80s (for light drive line) people were more conscience of cost and so if the drive line worked on the 273 it will also work on the 311. There were two different pto drive lines used also, a three joint drive shaft and a two joint drive shaft. You had more knocking of the joints with the two joint pto.

Needle not retracting could be a loose or worn brake allowing the needles to fall back into the chamber. On the 311 and 565 the needle safety latch is pulled by a cable, these cables stretch and need adjusted or the safety stop will contact the plunger arm before the needles are home. I have not seen it on the 311, but in the early 565 balers the knotter drive plate in the clutch would not always maintain contact and would stop driving the knotter which caused the needles to be up in the chamber and the flywheel shear bolt to shear. A new improved drive plate usually took care of the problem unless the clutch hub was not round in which case the clutch hub would need to be replaced also.

Long bales and needles not in the home position can also be caused by the small spring on knotter stop latch dog missing. The small spring pulls the latch dog back so the clutch hub can contact the latch dog fully to drive the knotter. The problem will not show up on every bale.

To address the chain issue a little more. Chain size is determined by the load. The 2040 chain on the 311 only drives the knotters which is a light load. The feeder is driven by a 60 chain which is as heavy as any other brand baler uses. Your 276 baler uses 2060 chain to drive the feeder system plus it drives the knotters through a connecting 2040 chain. I have seen more 2060 chains break than 2040 chains but in either case only after a lot of use. If you were breaking the 2040 pickup drive chains then you had something wrong in the pickup. The 565 has one 60 chain, driving the feeder and knotters. There is a second 60 chain connected to the feeder drive. I can not remember either of those chains breaking, but it is certainly possible. I have seen more balers jump time, knotter and feeder because of the lack of maintaining the tension on those two chains. On the 311 if the front chain jumps a link only the feeder timing is affected. On the 565 if the front chain jumps a link both the feeder and knotter timing is affected.

Amount of paint on the pickup will not tell you amount of use. Different crops wear paint differently.

The important thing is you are happy with your new baler. You are correct in your thinking that new is better than used.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Haha, yes I had most of what you just perfectly described. They did make a nice bale, never had banana bales like everyone talks about. The bale length problem was from the mechanism that is attached to the metering wheel not from bale packing problems. Would seem to work itself loose every now and again and then not trip. Pickup chain broke, think it fell off and broke when it wrapped up on itself. Don't care for the design or durability of those 273 based machines at all, though like you said that 276 is a much nicer baler. Planned to scrap it for parts when I got it for free but decided it was worth fixing. Probably would have been much happier with the NH if I'd bought a new one in the first place but when I finally went that route I didn't even consider the 5050 after dealing with the other ones.

Just thinking about that and the same issues with a two year old used car a couple years ago has already made me decide to stick to a new baler where any problems are either my own fault or the manufacturers fault . Or a $500 chain baler from Craigslist, so at least when it's broken down in the field I won't be out much money. I've had good luck with both buying new machines and buying and restoring 50 year old junk, and terrible luck buying high price newer used.

What's been your experience with the 450 utility?


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

We just do not sell 4ft wide balers. Neighboring dealers have had good luck I think, but I have no experience with them.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

JamesInPa, where-about are you in SWPA? I have a contact in western PA that might be able to point you toward a NH dealer out there. Said contact runs a NH 4x5 baler and has been pretty happy with it. 5 foot wide balers are unheard of around there.

My opinion, buy a good used regular 4x5 baler rather than a new utility. I've bought good used, questionable used, and new round balers, and so far on a per bale basis the good used baler was the lowest cost to run. Depreciation on new round balers is horrendous.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

I'm south of Pittsburgh. There's a NH dealer about 50 minutes east of me and another about 50 mins west, both I like pretty well. I know there's a couple NH not too far into Ohio and another one north of Pittsburgh in zelienople. There's a JD ten minutes away. The one I bought the other equipment from was in Ohio but got bought by Ag Pro and the sales guy I knew isn't there anymore. I liked him because he knew my dad didn't get around well so he'd drive the 50 minutes to my house so my dad didn't have to go all that way to sign papers.

Only place you sometimes see bigger balers are the few dairies still here. Neither the JD or NH ever stock any new balers other than 4x5 on the lot. From what I've seen of stocking they sell about equal amounts of economy and regular balers here.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

So I’m late to the game on this but two things come to mind. One, you’re constantly referencing the weight of your tractor versus the weight of a heavier baler but have you considered adding weight to your tractor? Or is it already fully ballasted? Secondly, Forrester’s may not have a lot of balers for sale on the lot in Somerset but they have many on the lot at Chambersburg. I’m sure they could help you out with more options.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Thanks for the recommendation on forrester's. Tractor is 4wd ROPS and is fully loaded, 5900 lbs operating weight plus 120lb front weight bracket plus 200lbs rear weights plus 1800lbs of fluid in rear tires. That's about 8000lbs, plus loader frame which I'm guessing is another 1000. It'll definitely pull a bigger baler (I've pulled more weight than that) and it has the PTO to spin a bigger baler, just a matter of stopping going downhill. If I was on flat land I'd not be concerned about it at all. These newer tractors don't have the wheelbase or heavy rear ends like older tractors in that hp range.

I'd go out and buy something like a farmall 806 or 1066 and solve the weight problem because they are easy to find around here and cheap to buy and run, and i know how to fix IH tractors, but don't know which guy at IH thought it was smart to put hydraulic brakes, steering and clutch with no backup for when the engine dies. People just say oh just don't run out of fuel but there's lots that can go wrong with a 50 year old machine besides operator error.

I can't afford to drop a lot on a newer larger tractor with the size of my operation. Buying the 5075e only made sense because of being able to buy a backhoe attachment with it rather than buying two separate machines, so it does everything I need for the scale of my operation. Plus it's a really good machine for me so far so I'm happy with it. Older green tractors aren't cheap but I always keep an eye out for any that are a good deal. Other old makes are plentiful and cheap but I have to start worrying about parts availability or service for repairs I can't do myself. Which is why they are cheap. Around here if it's not IH or JD you'll never find anyone to work on it.

I've seen lots of pictures and videos of the 5075e running the lighter balers like the 450e but don't see anything much heavier. Salesman told me when I bought it that they recommend the next size up tractor like the 5100e for heavier round balers.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Check with these folks for the New Holland balers. http://www.mcdowellimplement.com/ In Grove City PA.


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Was at Deere dealer today getting final pricing on a 450e. Sales guy flat out told me that the 450e or NH 450 utility would work great but to not put a heavier baler on my tractor as it isn't safe in this area. He had no interest in trying to sell me one of the 450M he had on the lot when I asked the price difference.

At this point I'm going to just stick with the lighter baler. Seems they are about equal in price and quality so guess it's just a coin flip between the two types as I've not heard anything bad from anyone around here about either model. 
Thanks for all the input everyone.


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