# Being the Middle Man



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I am from a dairy farm background where livestock was basically moved on and off farm via livestock dealer. On my sheep farm I do the same, but as I make the transition to full-time sheep farming (as opposed to logging/sheep farming which is what I do now), I have been wondering if I could not bring my own lambs to market.

Now I am not stupid, I know when you eliminate the middleman you make more money, but you must also do his work; work that is underappreciated. But lambs are small, and broken down over a 4 month sell period, it would not take much of a trailer to make the weekly trip to Flames in MA where my livestock dealer takes my sheep now. I would have the time and it might increase profitability even taken out the cost of traveling.

But I have never been to a livestock auction. Excuse my ignorance on this, but is it something I could conceivable do? That is bring a trailer load of lambs down and sell them myself? Flames is a direct-to-slaughter facility. I am not thinking I will get rich by any means, I just mean make a wee bit more per sheep. Right now when the livestock dealer sells me sheep they are always worth top dollar because the market is robust, but when I sell them...no matter when it is, there is always an excuse as to why they are not paying anything for them. He also claims he loses money with every sheep I sell, but he always shows up at the farm an hour after I call. Funny how he is always eager to lose money.

I have NOTHING against people making money, we all need to eat, but whether it is lamb, logs or gravel, it seems I am always on the low end of the deal.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Me too.....too many hands in my pockets


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Purty sure if you want to transition to full-time, you'll have to eliminate the middle man.....no one around here uses "livestock dealers". They load em up and take them to the sale....


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I am a bit confused. Is Flames the auction house? or the slaughter house? Can you explain that further?

I know you send animals down to New Holland. New Holland is an auction facility. They house the animals, and hold the auction. Anyone can come and buy them. The animals are often bought by a slaughterhouse rep or a broker that sells direct to the slaughterhouse. the broker has a relationship with the slaughterhouse and knows what they are looking to buy...

My wife works for a pig broker. They buy in pigs from anyone, put them into lots, then sell to slaughter houses like hatfield etc. If the pig farmer has a contract for production they can bypass the broker and deal right with Hatfield, Murphy Brown etc, but if they don't have a contract they really cant bypass the broker. The broker can get them better money for say 5 runt pigs because he will put them in a lot with 50 other pigs of the same size and sell them in one package. Hatfield isn't going to buy 5 pigs from Joe the farmer.....


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Ah brokers, ever wonder why they are called brokers? Because you go broke using them. The guy you described is apparently very good at his job.

I'm like Somedevildawg, we do it ourselves around here. The only way you cut the middlemen is you take on every process from start to finish product. The packer is still a middleman and there is no way around it unless to set up an inspected facility. In my case; I can eliminate the 3 or more trucks, sale barn, feedlot, and grocery store. That adds up a few coins but then so does my labor and taxes.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

PaMike said:


> I am a bit confused. Is Flames the auction house? or the slaughter house? Can you explain that further?
> 
> It is an auctionhouse, but by law any animal moved through there must be slaughtered in 72 hours. I am not sure where that law stems from, State or Fed, but that is what the livestock dealer told me.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

RuttedField said:


> I have NOTHING against people making money, we all need to eat, but whether it is lamb, logs or gravel, it seems I am always on the low end of the deal.


Rut, no reason you can't do that. All comes down to time and money. If you have the time and need the money go for it. If you are lacking time but have the money pay the man his due.

$0.02 from Minnesota says you need to make a weekly trip to the auction whether you are buying selling or not. Make a new friend or two there. I can guarantee there are at least a handful of old men who have not bought or sold anything in years that show up every week. And they would be happy to give you much better advice than me for a cup of coffee and some conversation.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

When we raised steers we sold direct to slaughter house sometimes. A lot depends on the quality of your product and how many you have. Dad would give them a call sometimes they sent a rep other times if they needed cattle they just sent a truck. I agree with others you need to make phone calls and go to some auctions and network with some people. I know two local farmers that are at the cattle auctions once or twice a week even if they are not buying or selling you never know what's there.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Rutted....most large sheep producers in PA and NY (<1k head) will do a bit of both, but it seems like most lean towards a broker for the ease and convenience. They get weighed at the farm and don't lose any $ from shrinkage. Most of the producers are smart enough to work with a broker/dealer/buyer who will negotiate a price that is suitable for both parties. In addition, sometimes the dealer/buyer will buy ahead to purchase around the holiday market. Example: Buyer may come to your farm in October to look at your lamb crop, and agree to pay you $2.10/pound in December. However, I'm a small producer and run my stock directly to auction, it's no bother at all. I run to New Holland and like PaMike said, the buyers there are brokers representing slaughter facilities. They sell the same day as the hay auction, so I typically watch the sheep/goat sale while I wait for my hay to sell. It's just luck that New Holland is close to us, seeing that New Holland and San Angelo are the two largest sheep auctions in the states.


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

I go to the market ever Saturday regardless if buying selling or just go to eat lunch 
You will get to know alit of people and half way know what the market is looking to do next week. And you can learn what the meat man is looking to buy size weight looks.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Swv.farmer said:


> I go to the market ever Saturday regardless if buying selling or just go to eat lunch
> You will get to know alit of people and half way know what the market is looking to do next week. And you can learn what the meat man is looking to buy size weight looks.


When I use to raise pigs, I did this just to see what the market was 'buying'. As SWV says probably still holds true today. INDK if it would apply to sheep/lambs, but it sure use to apply for pigs and cattle. Also, you might notice that some buyers might not be present every week (just one more thing to track, I guess).

Larry


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## farmer97 (Oct 20, 2016)

Use to raise sheep a few years ago. I would lamb out in the spring and sell in the fall about 100 miles away one way. I'd probably save a few dollars if their was a broker in the area. Only to really know for sure is to pencil it out if its worth the drive. I would also finish a few weathers for some South Africans and myself to butcher.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I agree with going to an auction and just getting the feel of how things work. I did that when I first got into cattle with my father years ago.


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## olschoolsteel (Mar 6, 2016)

My favorite part of dealing with livestock is hanging out at the auction houses. Once you start going on a weekly basis you will meet up with like minded people and share thoughts and practices. I always had a blast watching the livestock pass through, mentally comparing my stock to those in the ring, and this informs me on what prices my stock would bring in their current condition.

I bought a single axle 2 horse trailer that is fully enclosed. I have hauled cattle, hogs and of course sheep. Although I am forced to haul them myself to butcher, it comes in handy when I am buying at the auction house or from local sellers who are selling a few head at a time.

In the state of Illinois, a single axle livestock trailer doesnt have to be registered so other than packing the bearings or the new set of tires, it has more than paid for itself. It has even served as a lambing house in and emergency.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

olschoolsteel said:


> In the state of Illinois, a single axle livestock trailer doesnt have to be registered so other than packing the bearings or the new set of tires, it has more than paid for itself. It has even served as a lambing house in and emergency.


Are you sure? That would save me $54 bucks a year for my trailer.

If you're trying to squeak in under the "implement of husbandry" as it applies to trailers, that actually allows trailers up to 36,000 lbs...so the single-axle thing is a moot issue. There may be other problems though with your horse trailer. That's only from what I know...and I don't know much.

Mark


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

FLAME is an acronym for Farmers Livestock Auction & Market Exchange.

It is located in Littleton, MA.

It is about 25 miles from me.

Dave


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## olschoolsteel (Mar 6, 2016)

glasswrongsize said:


> Are you sure? That would save me $54 bucks a year for my trailer.
> 
> If you're trying to squeak in under the "implement of husbandry" as it applies to trailers, that actually allows trailers up to 36,000 lbs...so the single-axle thing is a moot issue. There may be other problems though with your horse trailer. That's only from what I know...and I don't know much.
> 
> Mark


I spent some time on cyberdrive il looking to show you what they told me. But I just cant find it. Suffice to say I went into Pinckneyville DMV and flat out asked them, "I have a 2 horse enclosed single axle trailer. I only haul livestock with. Do I need to register it?" The direct and single answer (from 2 different people at once) was NO. I cant show you but if you verify through your local DMV, you might save a few clams a yr that you can spend on feed or fuel.

The load range E 16" tires were pricey. Aside from that, regular packing of the bearings and I used up a pile of 2x12s over the top of the existing deck, it has been worry free.

Having never dealt with a broker, the 2 horse trailer is alot more fun that hog tieing a few lambs and hauling them home in the back of the truck.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

olschoolsteel said:


> I spent some time on cyberdrive il looking to show you what they told me. But I just cant find it. Suffice to say I went into Pinckneyville DMV and flat out asked them, "I have a 2 horse enclosed single axle trailer. I only haul livestock with. Do I need to register it?" The direct and single answer (from 2 different people at once) was NO. I cant show you but if you verify through your local DMV, you might save a few clams a yr that you can spend on feed or fuel.
> 
> The load range E 16" tires were pricey. Aside from that, regular packing of the bearings and I used up a pile of 2x12s over the top of the existing deck, it has been worry free.
> 
> Having never dealt with a broker, the 2 horse trailer is alot more fun that hog tieing a few lambs and hauling them home in the back of the truck.


While registrations are exempted for "implements of husbandry" I think "horse trailers" might not be exempt as they were not "designed and adapted exclusively for agricultural, horticultural, or livestock raising operations". You will also notice in the definition that it good to 36000 lbs which was why I had previously questioned the "single axle" point that you made. You might be ok with it, but a State's attorney (or worse yet, a lawyer suing or insurance not paying!!!) might argue that the "horse trailer" was not designed EXCLUSIVELY for livestock raising operations; they could argue that it was designed to "include" livestock, but not exclusively.

If you do a google search of the following numbers, include "ILGA" (stands for Illinois General Assembly)

625 ILCS 5/3-819 (deals with "farm tags" on trailers.)
625 ILCS 5/3-402 [(a) (2) deals with exemptions of "implements of husbandry"
625 ILCS 5/1-130 (the definition of implement of husbandry)

...or you can go to ILGA.GOV and look up every law you ever wanted to know (in Illinois) and some you didn't.

I would probably feel better (at a minimum) having the names written down of the two people who told you that you didn't need to register a "horse trailer" You will maybe never need it unless you're involved in an accident...then the atty's/insurance companies will make it ALL your fault that the trailer wasn't "legal" to be on the road and shouldn't have been there, etc...

Mark

PS, That is not to say that I'm saying you need it...the DMV folks prolly know better than I do. I just happened to have looked this part up before. There may be another spot that contradicts this one, but I would want to see it before I chanced it.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I realize states have different trailer registration laws but in Tx my 16 X 6'8'' GN LS trailer cost me $9.75 a year for license sticker for farm trailer. I have always sold my cattle & sheep,goats(back when I raised them) at a livestock auction.


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

Time spent at the Sale Barn will save you money and no doubt... from potential future aggravation! You'll need to know who the "players" are... who's bidding or not bidding. Later on that knowledge will help you to understand why... they're either bidding or not.

If you've never been to an auction and learned the in's and out's - you might find yourself in a position of either having to "no sale" on your lambs or taking a hit in the butt after some buyers/brokers set you up by not bidding against one another and a lone buyer sitting on a low offer.

The reverse can happen as well. Buyers/brokers will bid a lot # up (if they see interest) and drop it on the unsuspecting "rube".

When I was alot younger, I really wanted a young, registered quarterhorse to raise and train. So, I went to a Production Sale for a fairly well known breeder in SD. Just happened to be held that year at the local sale barn where some of the older, experienced ranchers (who knew me) were taking in the sale as well.

I bid on a sweet bay filly and got caught up in the middle of 2 other bidders who started to run the numbers. Old guys on each side of me noticed that one of the other bidders was the ranch foreman for the breeder.

They told me what was going on... and said to just stay with 'em and right before the gavel - drop it! The foreman bought the colt. He caught up to me later on in the sale and asked me if I still wanted that filly. Nope. Not even for the price they were willing to settle on.

There's alot goin' on at the Sale Barn! And you gotta peel back several layers of the onion to even begin to figure it out.


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## olschoolsteel (Mar 6, 2016)

I know this thread might be going sideways, but another thing about auctions;

My favorite auction in Ogden Ut., I picked up a lot of good deals. When I saw a bidding war on something I didnt HAVE to have, I would back out. But the auctioneer would start at the going price and work his way down till bidding started and it would run its course.

But here in Southern Illinois, there is a ring master, and he sets the price that the auctioneer starts at. If no one bids, the ring master might drop the starting bid once or twice but if it doesnt start, they run it out and try it later, or it doesnt sell. I get that the auction house works to get the best price for the seller, But as a buyer, I think it is the audience that should set the price. I see both sides, but I prefer the lower prices to the price setters.


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