# So called farm experts



## steve in IN

I am sick and tired of people who do not farm but get paid for advice. Just read an article on Agweb about the dairy industry. It was written by a lawyer. The short story is that according to this yahoo the dairy farmers problems are caused by poor financial management. Sorry you educated moron but most of the dairy farmers I know are very good financial managers, Just how do you manage for success when its not the price of your milk but the cost of your inputs. The same can be said for the 10 years grain farmers had two dollar corn. It would be fine if the expenses reflected to this price level. My friends in the dairy put more hours in during one day than all these "experts" do in a month. Has anyone else heard this BS or feel the same way.


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## swmnhay

Yea i've heard them over the yrs.

"You need to specialize"Well Daaaaa if you got all your eggs in one basket and things go bad it could break you.

"you need to get bigger and just manage it"Well Daaa you better have some good help then and that is hard to find.


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## Gearclash

> "you need to get bigger and just manage it".





> "You need to specialize"


I've seen this not work, in the diary biz at that. Who says if you can't do it right on a small scale that somehow bigger will be better? First figure out how to do it profitably, THEN think about going bigger.


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## mlappin

Oh I know, some land a few miles from the farm is coming up for auction, bank told us they'd approve a bid of up to $10000/acre. Has a well but the pivot would have to be bought from the current renter or a new one would have to be installed.

Even with $7 corn I can't make that pencil out. Even over 20 years looking at $30K a year in payments, then add property tax.

It's good ground but not even adding water will make it 250 bushel/acre ground, just too sandy.

And it's a slightly rectangular so the pivot doesn't cover near as much as if it was a nice square.

So lets figure 200 b/a average off the field at $7 corn equals $1400 gross per acre. Figure in seed, fertilizer, wear and tear on equipment, etc. Gonna cost $500/acre a year just to pay the mortgage, then add in property tax, will also have to pay for the pivot and electricity to run it.

Yet the bank thinks this is a great opportunity. If I could get it for 5k an acre maybe but certainly ain't dropping $600K on one field. Only way it pencils out is to rent it to the seed corn, tomatoes, or green bean guys and farm it after 20 years when it's finally paid for, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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## somedevildawg

A lawyer writing about the ag industry......wow, tomorrow he'll be sueing them.....perhaps he really wanted to be a farmer but got himself into so legal troubles and was forced to become a used car salesman or a lawyer, he liked the sound of esquire as it rolled off the lips.....bunch of morons


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## hog987

mlappin you just have to grow another cash crop with more return, uumm something like Marijuana?


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## steve in IN

The jist of the article from my understanding was he was counseling dairies on the mistakes they were making as they considered bankruptcy. No matter how well you manage or how hard you work the two most important things are what you get for your product, which doesnt matter if your inputs are more, which by the way is number two. Marti, looks like Serus Group will get another farm to rent out for big bucks. Unless someone in your area has very deep pockets. They bought one here in LaPorte last fall for $9750 then bought the irrigation unit from the tenant for more than they paid for it new two years prior. Apparently this group doesnt remember the Prudential Insurance land grab deal in the 70's and 80's.


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## Gearclash

@ mlappin, at least the bank will consider the loan. HERE the banks have been discouraging land purchase for at least five years already, and since I started hearing that, land prices have pretty much doubled.


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## JD3430

I hope this doesn't insult anyone, but:

Farming to me (an outsider who didn't grow up on a family farm) seems more like a lifestyle and a career than just a career. You LIVE farming 24/7. The crops or livestock are always on your mind, always need to be cared for. Cows have to be milked everyday-even Christmas. Crops cut when THEY say so.
All the people who do business with farmers: Land seller/renter, equipment sellers, fertilizer, tank truck driver, etc. know this. They know the farmer can't get by without equipment, fertilizer, financing, etc. and they prey on the farmer by making him pay retail for everything they use and yet the farmer must sell the fruits of his labor for wholesale prices.
I live in a WEALTHY area. I don't say this to brag (because I'm not wealthy), but to illustrate a point: In my area, the farmer is pretty low on the totem pole. Not driving the BMW or having a vacation home near the coast.
I think farmers are some of the toughest, most resourcefull people in the country, but their costs of doing business are exhorbitant and keep them from earning enough money for REAL financial security.

Now the big corporate farms with 10,000's of acres probably make quite a bit, but show me a farmer farming 200 acres of land with a Rolex, enough cash to send the kids to college with no loans and a 50K + german sports car and I'll show you my playboy bunny wife.


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## swmnhay

Gearclash said:


> @ mlappin, at least the bank will consider the loan. HERE the banks have been discouraging land purchase for at least five years already, and since I started hearing that, land prices have pretty much doubled.


Neil,It sounds like my banker.Very conservitive!Hind sight i should of switched banks and bought more land.Oh Well,I guess I'll farm what we have and be satisfied with that.Sit back and wait for the crash.







Or maybe just go fishing


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## dbergh

Been around long enough to see this happen before in the 70's & early 80's. Lots of investor money is flowing in to the ag world and paying ridiculous prices for marginal ground guided by front men that are working both ends of the deal and then leasing the ground back from the investors.. This has happened before in our areas and it all came crashing down when prices hit rock bottom and interest was sky high. Left the investors high and dry and they ended up getting pennies on the dollar for their "high priced" dirt. Its exactly how we got into our ground . We ended up paying 5-10% of what land is selling for now around here back in mid 90's.
So the lesson here is don't get overextended and you might be around to pick up the pieces when it all comes crashing down. We had a farm auction for one of these 10,000 acre guys just yesterday so it may be here sooner than you think!


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## Vol

I have a son who is just graduating from college with a good and practical degree.....I tell him he is getting started at a perfect time for his desire of owning his own ag land. I tell him it is going to crash and he will be able to acquire great land and farm equipment for very small percentages. Yes, it will happen....and truthfully I am surprised that it has continued this long.There is no way on earth that I would purchase ag land at the current pricing. I do not wish bad things on anyone....just being realistic and been thru these times more than once.

Regards, Mike


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## gradyjohn

Now this is a dairy operation.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJRy82i8e5Q&feature=email
I always found it strange back when I raised crops that when the price of wheat went up so did the price of bread. On the other hand ... when the price of wheat went down bread stayed the same. 

My hat is off the dairy farmer. My dad was but got out of it when I was 6 (thank you Jesus). When I was practice teaching in dairy country in Texas one of my students day was selling out. I entertained the idea to buy him out ... then I came to my senses and realized I would have not time off, any vacation, and spend the rest of the time asking myself why? Thank you Lord for stepping in. When I was 18 I got off a tractor and said I will never get on another one ... never say never. The Co I was working for moved me back within 9 miles of the old farm. I started working with my horses. Decided I could bale my own hay and sell the rest and pay for my equipment. Within 4 years I quit my job and was back into it full time. I'm not sure it is a way of life and/or a career as much as it just gets in your blood. There is nothing more satisfying than seeing a new born calf, colt, lamb, or goat hit the ground or those seed sprout after you have cultivated and fertilized the ground to prepare it. The smell of fresh baled hay (which means you have no or few weeds in them) when you walk into the barn.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Hey JD, If those people think that farmers are low on the totem pole, just wait till they get hungry! Mike


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## mlappin

I can't agree more guys, land is overpriced and things will crash, sooner if obummer gets another four years.

Just posted it to show that the experts at the bank are full of sheet as well. I don't care that their graphs and charts and spreadsheets say I can afford it so I should buy it, that's far more than I'm willing to go into debt for with the future of this country so un-certain yet.


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## urednecku

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Hey JD, If those people think that farmers are low on the totem pole, just wait till they get hungry! Mike


That don't worry that bunch of idiots. If they get hungry, they'll just go down to the store & buy some food. They get their food from the store. They do not need the farmer. (YES, plenty of people actually believe this.)


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## slowzuki

The difference is the big corps aren't looking to own it in 20 years. They are going to buy it and pay interest and keep rolling it over into new financing. They expense the interest and plan on selling it in 5,10,15 years or what ever at the same or slightly more than they paid for it to cover the financed amount remaining. If the industry goes really really bad they pull the rip cord go bankrupt and walk away. If its only so-so bad they owe the bank so much they have some leverage against the bank to keep them going.

You won't compete with this if your goal is to be debt free.



mlappin said:


> and farm it after 20 years when it's finally paid for, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.


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## mlappin

slowzuki said:


> You won't compete with this if your goal is to be debt free.


My goal is to be debt free, it's also to be here in another 30 years.

A person most certainly can compete, we have several large farms we rent being over 150 acres each. Every BTO the area keeps trying to rent them. We take care of the owners, literally. Took our boomlift down to the one and trimmed some trees off her roof, also take the bushhog down and keep her lanes and horse lots clipped. Keep fence rows trimmed back and rocks picked up, keep all tiles fixed, keep dead trees out of the ditch, etc. Both said they'd rather deal with someone that actually takes care of stuff rather then one that rights a bigger check and might be a here today, gone tomorrow.


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## Vol

Thats right Marty...you are competing....you are using your brain versus someone that can only use their checkbook....intelligent folks recognize that and not everyone can be bought with a fist full of dollars. What kind of price can you put on someone today that will actually do the right thing.....where as a high dollar renter think they have a license to run rough shod and do as they please. I have no patience for that type of mentality.

Regards, Mike


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## Bob M

when I bought our 200 cow dairy operation from my family in 2000, I bought limited equipment and hired some field work done. Slowly I have bought more equipment and have gotten back in the hay business in 2003. My banker keep telling me to stop growing crops and just take care of cows. Luckly I did not listen to him, I have taken care of our cows and kept the field operations mostly hay only enough corn and beans to feed the cows. We have one of the top producing herds in the area and have one of the lowest ssc counts, and are in top 3rd in most herd bench marks. I have an older dairy set up, two years ago my son and I looked at renting a modern 350 cow dairy with 15 miles of us. After doing the budgets I figured we could produce milk a little cheaper at this modern set up but would really cut into our abilty to grow and sell hay. I also knew that when the price of milk dropped below COP i would lose alot more money. I got scared and did not rent, oh and by the way banker thought it was a great idea to rent. YOU KNOW HE IS THE EXPERT! With these high feed prices I am sure glad we did not expand and we are still producing quality milk and quality hay!!! Again just my ******* thoughts.


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## steve in IN

Marti you are lucky people consider those things. In my neighborhood landlords are more interested in cash. They expect you to do those things as well as pay top rent. I convinced my Dad years ago to do these things and we got more ground. Then after Dad retired it worked well for awhile. Then along came the "Young Tigers" and they did these things AND paid ridiculous rents. I have heard through the grapevine that they are asking for reductions now. Just not the same business I got started in. As for another 30 years , thats asking alot of this old body of 47. God willing I will go till I cant no more. When i cant I have a tavern in mind of buying. My folks cant keep running it forever.


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## slowzuki

Thats the trick, not trying to complete in the same game. I'm sure the owners realize you won't walk away from them and leave them hanging on the first down turn in crop prices too.



mlappin said:


> My goal is to be debt free, it's also to be here in another 30 years.
> 
> A person most certainly can compete, we have several large farms we rent being over 150 acres each. Every BTO the area keeps trying to rent them. We take care of the owners, literally. Took our boomlift down to the one and trimmed some trees off her roof, also take the bushhog down and keep her lanes and horse lots clipped. Keep fence rows trimmed back and rocks picked up, keep all tiles fixed, keep dead trees out of the ditch, etc. Both said they'd rather deal with someone that actually takes care of stuff rather then one that rights a bigger check and might be a here today, gone tomorrow.


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## mlappin

Oh yah, the one place when I mow hay, I run the discbine down the lane and back, every time without fail. 25 acres of hay there with 157 in row crops. The widow lady that owns it is in her early 70's and likes to go for a walk early in the mornings before it gets hot. She says her feet don't get near as wet if it's kept clipped. I've also took my 13hp generator down so she could run a window air conditioner and what not last big storm when she lost her power but we still had ours.

The other place the lady has some high dollar Arabians that she breeds and boards horses as well. The previous tenants would just get a bigger tractor to drag the trucks up the lane then across all her nice pretty white limestone in the drive till the drive was brown with mud. Second year they done that they were gone. We have 3/4's of a mile of railroad bed that reverted back to the farm when the railroad removed the tracks. We haul rock for her farm lane when required and use the box scraper to keep it leveled. She really appreciates not having to buy limestone to cover the mud up after harvest.

My other landlord just down the road I've fixed fence for him, helped him put hay up and fixed his furnace twice in ten years. He really likes it since we have gone to no till on his place. In the winter I've gone down and plowed his drive after him and the wife left for work. His Mom has 80 acres a mile behind us and she's not happy with the current guys, he's gonna tell her to call me when the lease is up.


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## mlappin

steve in IN said:


> Marti you are lucky people consider those things. In my neighborhood landlords are more interested in cash. They expect you to do those things as well as pay top rent. I convinced my Dad years ago to do these things and we got more ground. Then after Dad retired it worked well for awhile. Then along came the "Young Tigers" and they did these things AND paid ridiculous rents. I have heard through the grapevine that they are asking for reductions now. Just not the same business I got started in. As for another 30 years , thats asking alot of this old body of 47. God willing I will go till I cant no more. When i cant I have a tavern in mind of buying. My folks cant keep running it forever.


You only have 5 years on me. only 4 actually in a few weeks.

My Great Grandpa was still farming in his 90's, my grandfather was active well into his 70's. My Mom's side as well are long lived. If somebody in either family dies in their 80's, all you hear at the funeral is how young they were yet.

Most impressive is I have an uncle who is quickly approaching 60, not only does he have the energy to chase women half his age, he occasionally catches one.


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## steve in IN

Hope I can still chase women in my 60's. Just seems every year more aches and pains. I at least earned them. Better than having a sore ass from managing the farm from the office as so many do now adays.


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## Teslan

Talking about so called experts. What gets me is when people bash herbicides, insecticides, commercial fertilizer and GMO crops that have never even gotten close to a farm. They think they are experts from what they read from other so called farming experts. Or they go to their local farmers market and see a farmer/gardener that farms 2 acres of tomatoes organically they assume all kind of farms can do the same and produce the amount of produce we have now.


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## slowzuki

Is it that they bash it or make it sound so one sided? I'm not happy that I have to use commercial fertilizer, I'm not happy I have to use herbicides, mainly because I like self sufficiency and there is no way to get around those ones.

Sure it would be great if intensive organic farming could feed everyone, but we'd be back to farming every scratch of marginal ground and what 40% of the population being farmers. Not going to work.


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## Teslan

slowzuki said:


> Is it that they bash it or make it sound so one sided? I'm not happy that I have to use commercial fertilizer, I'm not happy I have to use herbicides, mainly because I like self sufficiency and there is no way to get around those ones.
> 
> Sure it would be great if intensive organic farming could feed everyone, but we'd be back to farming every scratch of marginal ground and what 40% of the population being farmers. Not going to work.


Yes I would also not like to have to spray for weeds, bugs, or apply fertilizer also. No farmer does, Not even the "big evil" corporate farms. Intensive organic farming would work if everyone would want to spend 75% of their income on food and then not have variety in what they eat all year round. The writers of these articles and blogs never seem to under stand that part either.


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## mlappin

Teslan said:


> Yes I would also not like to have to spray for weeds, bugs, or apply fertilizer also. No farmer does, Not even the "big evil" corporate farms. Intensive organic farming would work if everyone would want to spend 75% of their income on food and then not have variety in what they eat all year round. The writers of these articles and blogs never seem to under stand that part either.


Something that always amazes me that's never brought up, if all farmers went organic, imagine how much more livestock it would take to supply enough manure for fertilizer. Then of course even more grain would be required to feed them all.


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