# Hay wagon hully gully..



## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

I'm sure this has been asked many times, and many have had this happen, but I just has ta asks.. how in the heck do you get rid of the danged hay wagon sway on a steerable gear? 
I have tried to no avail to get it gone on one wagon I have, the newest one too, the old wood rail units run down the road perfectly, so much so you find your self a 50mph and need to slow down, the all steel wagon... 25mph and it's changing lanes.. what the heck is going on? All the pivot points are tight, linkage is all new.. could be miss aligned that bad?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Where are the wheels set? Just a little toe-in (1/2" maybe) on each side should do the trick if your pivot points are already snug. Make sure your coupling pole is well attached too. A little looseness there can create a less-than-ideal ride as well.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yep, had a few that would do fifty, 30 when loaded with good tires, had a few no matter what we did they never trailed very well even empty. Just the nature of the beast, an Allis Chalmers and a New Ideal running gear trailed the best, the old Cory's that came out from under our silage wagons when we converted them to tandems trailed the worst no matter what.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I assume that it does not apply to your new wagon, but tight kingpins and tight steering linkage is a common culprit around here. I don't mean snug from being new, the kind of tight they get when ate up by grease weevils.

I've bought a wagon or two that would not take grease and the tongue jumped and popped you would turn the tongue to hook it up etc... That non-smooth steering actions is multiplied on the road as the wagon will drift farther to one side before it can overcome the stiff tongue; when it finally pops, it goes too far and the wagon heads to the other side...kind of the tail wagging the dog kinda thing. Usually apply the blue-tool til grease will take and it helps somewhat.

I assume your wagon does not fit this scenario, but it may help somebody searching for the problem.

73, Mark


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Easy fix. Its easier to explain on the phone. All of ours will travle 60+. Pm me and we can talk.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

gearhartfarms82 said:


> Easy fix. Its easier to explain on the phone. All of ours will travle 60+. Pm me and we can talk.


If you wouldn't mind taking a crack at explaining it in text, I'm sure others would appreciate hearing about your secret.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> If you wouldn't mind taking a crack at explaining it in text, I'm sure others would appreciate hearing about your secret.


Yeah, what he said!!!!!! 
73, Mark


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Toe In will make the wagon more stable. Toe out will make it unstable. Also the caster angle of the wagon also will affect how stable it is. The caster angle would have been built into the wagon kingpins and wont be able to be changed...

Who know the Vehicle Dynamics class I took 13 years ago in college would be utilized in hay wagon diagnosis...


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

We used to have the same thing with cotton trailers back in the day (wagons, but we called them trailers). No two were alike-- some built on old Model A car frames/axles, some actual running gears, some built on old trucks. The worst one we had was a little two-bale trailer that we got one time with a one-row cotton picker from a friend of my Dad's... it was built on a 50's Chevy pickup frame, had a tongue swivel welded to the I-beam axle, and an angle iron U-bolted to the tie-rod. The steering was good and tight (not sloppy) but the trailer was SO short due to the shortbed pickup frame under it that it would weave and bob and try to pass you at anything over 40mph. It had a really short tongue on it that I lengthened later on, which helped quite a bit. Nothing I could do about the short wagon length, though, so it still would try to pass you if you went too fast (about 50).

Usually, the longer the wagon, the more stable it is. That's because longer things naturally oscillate at a lower frequency than shorter things (toss a long stick in the air end over end, then a short stick end over end, and you'll see what I mean... the short stick will always rotate faster, ie oscillate at a higher frequency). The longer the tongue, the more stable it usually is.

Being "too tight and dry" is just as bad as "too sloppy" or having slack in the ball joints, pivot points, etc. Make sure everything moves smoothly and firmly, not tight and "poppy" or "creaky" from stop point to stop point as the tongue is swung from side to side. If there's movement in the tongue before the wheels start moving, determine the cause and correct it. I've seen worn and/or loose cross-bolt between the tongue and the swivel (allows the tongue to move up and down), loose/worn tongue swivel pivot point (the point the tongue and swivel move side-to-side to steer the wagon, usually under/over the axle), loose/worn tie rod pivot point (back of the tongue swivel where the tie rod(s) connect to the tongue swivel), and/or loose tie rod ends at the steering knuckles. Tight/dry king pins, or excessively worn and sloppy king pins, exacerbate the situation.

Basically weaving is usually caused by SOME amount of slack in the steering setting up a "feedback loop" when the path of the wagon is perturbed by steering or road irregularities. The wagon will steer off to one side, until all the slack is taken up, at which point the tongue will "correct" the wheels, usually "overcorrecting", then the wheels will push the wagon over the other direction til all the slack is taken out, and the tongue overcorrects it again, and the wagon steers the opposite way until the tongue overcorrects it again, and the cycle repeats continuously. Eliminating all the "slop" in the steering is the first step. If the wagon "dog tracks" (meaning the rear wheels are at a slight angle to the front wheels, so that the rear of the wagon runs to one side or the other a bit compared to the front of the wagon, that will set up a feedback loop and weaving as well, and exacerbate the situation. I had one wagon that did that and weaved terribly-- the run was bent somehow and I managed to fix it by come-alonging it straight and then wrapping a pair of chains around the wagon floor beams to hold the wagon pole straight... pulled great after that.

I had some that no matter what I did, they weaved at varying speeds. If I'd have kept row-cropping and using the wagons all the time, I would have experimented more with stopping them from wagging. Some wagons (and even trucks) have "shock absorbers" mounted horizontally from the axle to the tie rod, to absorb the energy that feeds back into "weaving" and damp out the oscillations, while still allowing the tie rod to move from one stop to the other in turns. I also thought of installing a good, stout spring with sufficient length to allow the tie rod to swing from one stop to the other side-to-side, while "keeping everything taut" in one direction (toward the right side for safety). Theoretically, a stout spring (like a hood spring, only longer) will "take up" all the slack in the steering by running from an anchor point on the axle to one of the tie rod ends, pulling the steering gear toward that side. As the trailer turns corners, the spring lengthens or shortens as needed, but it's always pulling to the right, which keeps all the slack pulled out to the right side. I've seen some wagons with springs on the steering like this.

The best pulling trailer we ever had was an old 2 ton truck frame converted into a wagon-- had a two-speed rear axle in the back and regular truck I-beam axle in the front, running on 7.50-20's with five-bolt truck rims. A ginner in Shiner had built that trailer decades before and my Grandpa eventually bought it from him. It had a home-made swivel attached to the axle and tie rod, and home-made tongue made from 4 inch pipe about 8 feet long or so to the clevis hitch. We used to haul round bales to Shiner on that thing running 50-55 mph no problem. I pulled it home many times at 70 mph.

Later and good luck! OL J R


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

OK since you're going to make me type. The long and short of it is if your king friends and ball joints are tight your problem is up in the hitch. Where your pain goes through to let the hitch go up-and-down is usually the problem area. If there is slop side to side and/or whole wobbled that has play to let the trailer wag the tail. Nine times out of 10 you can shim it and a eliminate a lot of it. You need to have your trailer to go set to about zero if you toe 1/2 an inch you where the tires off prematurely. The other place you can run into trouble is slop in an extendable tongue. All of our wagons we keep the tongue shimed tightly if need to replace worn-out pieces with new machine pieces and all the wagons will be at least 60 mile an hour loaded or empty. We also end up modifying Baler tongues so when we drag the Baler and kunhn accumulator down the road it doesn't want to sway either it's the same principle you have to take the slop out of the whole system front to rear. If you have a better trailing wagon always make it the lead wagon that way the second wagon doesn't multiply what the first wagon is doing so bad


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yep, any little bit of play in the hitch means a lot of play by time it gets to the wheels. Always use the largest hitch pin that will fit as well.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Thanks guys, I'm going to check all that was mentioned and see how it goes, if I can go 50 I'll be tickled, as I will be able to get a better turn around when in the big fields.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

skyrydr2 said:


> Thanks guys, I'm going to check all that was mentioned and see how it goes, if I can go 50 I'll be tickled, as I will be able to get a better turn around when in the big fields.


Which brings up another point-- ALWAYS be careful when turning or backing, to make sure you don't "peg out" the wagon steering. It's easy to do, especially on short wagons when backing, or long wagons when turning sharp. That is EXTREMELY hard on the tongue to swivel pivot (usually a horizontal bolt through the tongue) or on the other parts of the wagon steering (in the event that the stops on the axle/kingpin is the only stops to prevent the tires from turning so sharp they hit the tie rods or frame in a turn).

Later! OL J R


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