# There is one downside to using an applicator



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have some pretty sophisticated buyers. Some bring moisture meters along and probe bales. 
Of course, my bales have been treated with crop saver proprionic acid, but when the buyer probes the bale and it reads 27.7%, they balk and say "this bale will have dust".
Then you have to prove to them its been treated and hope they believe you.


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Lol. How long does it take that moisture to leave from the applicator?


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have seen the same thing at the auction mart when selling hay. People probe someone load and say don't buy that its too wet. I said what if its been treated. They look at me and say WHAT????? Never heard of such a thing.

I was also there one cool foggy day so foggy it was pretty much raining. Couple of people were probing some square bales. Wow they said its 0% now that's dry. I guess they don't know that after a certain % the meter reads 0. Anywhere below 6-10% depending on meter also they say plus or minus 2-6%. I said its so foggy and damp nothing can be 0% today and if it was really 0% it would be a pile of dust on the ground. They looked at me like I didn't know what I was talking about.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

At 27.7% moisture its gunna be more than dust if not treated! Thats mold, carmelization or barn fire territory.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

How much acid did you apply and what was the moisture reading at time of baling?

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rjmoses said:


> How much acid did you apply and what was the moisture reading at time of baling?
> 
> Ralph


Probably went in 22-Ish. Usually it reads 4-5% higher in the bale. 
8lbs per ton applied at 22%


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Okay...

Rule one of using preservative, once applied to the bale it will skew readings with a probe.

Rule two of using preservative, only temp readings will truly give you an ideal of whats happening in the bale.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

mlappin-Didnt you say you are using hay guard now instead of acid? How do you like it?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

PaMike said:


> mlappin-Didnt you say you are using hay guard now instead of acid? How do you like it?


Won't go back to acid. One draw back is 25% moisture is max, however I've found using acid on hay over 25% is a real crapshoot. Even if it keeps just fine and drys down, when you go to sell it an experienced hay buyer knows something is up.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

So why do you like it so much better than acid?

I know its only one application rate right? Hows it smell?

I have an older harvest tec setup sitting in the barn that I need to put on the round baler, but I just don't have the time.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Okay...
> 
> Rule one of using preservative, once applied to the bale it will skew readings with a probe.
> 
> Rule two of using preservative, only temp readings will truly give you an ideal of whats happening in the bale.


That's great to know, but my original question is how do you sell bales reading 25% to a customer? 
You know they're preserved, but he doesn't, or may not chose to believe you.
I'm beginning to believe a "dye" or a "scent" would be a way to prove it.

I think I saw where there's a preservative made that dyes the hay green and maybe one with an apple scent??? If it became general knowledge that this was an indicator of preservative, then maybe it would make selling treated bales easier & build more trust with customer.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Unroll the bale right there, if it's what you said it would be they pay for it and if it's not you eat it. I have found that has helped make a sale or two around here.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Always wanted to ask this: 
Can you take a chain saw, nose it into the bale and cut a chunk out of it?

Otherwise, I think a green dye would be the way to show they've been treated.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Always wanted to ask this:
> Can you take a chain saw, nose it into the bale and cut a chunk out of it?
> 
> Otherwise, I think a green dye would be the way to show they've been treated.


Just like road diesel vs off road, you have to apply the dye to the more expensive product otherwise people will find a way to add dye to everything.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

People and bringing their own moisture probes. Many times they don't know anything about their own probes. I've had 2-3 people come this year and stick their probes into my bales and it says 14.5%. They look at me like I'm stealing from them and tell me the bales are wet. I say ok take the probe out and hold it in the air and what do you get. 14.5%. *sigh*


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

No, chainsaw doesn't really work. Tangles up. How about a forage testing probe on a drill.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> Always wanted to ask this:
> Can you take a chain saw, nose it into the bale and cut a chunk out of it?
> 
> Otherwise, I think a green dye would be the way to show they've been treated.


Nope, a buddy tried a chainsaw once, broke his saw when too much wrapped around the crankshaft.

Adding a dye would be considered adultering the hay, might get away with it on the local level but if it was to cross state lines....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> That's great to know, but my original question is how do you sell bales reading 25% to a customer?
> You know they're preserved, but he doesn't, or may not chose to believe you.
> I'm beginning to believe a "dye" or a "scent" would be a way to prove it.
> 
> I think I saw where there's a preservative made that dyes the hay green and maybe one with an apple scent??? If it became general knowledge that this was an indicator of preservative, then maybe it would make selling treated bales easier & build more trust with customer.


I've never tried to sell fresh treated hay to a customer before, it stays in my barn until I know it's gonna keep, not gonna heat and won't be dusty.

Think about it, just how many gallons of green dye would it take to be noticeable in a bale? The local place that has their own blend made up for acid adds citric acid to help keep the green (like adding lemon juice to a fruit salad to keep everything from turning brown) acidic acid to kill yeast and apple scent/flavoring to take the reek away from the propionic acid. Doesn't help that much, still takes your breath away.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So I guess if a customer wants to see moisture content, even after I add a preservative to bales, he would have to trust you that they are in fact preserved.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Just like road diesel vs off road, you have to apply the dye to the more expensive product otherwise people will find a way to add dye to everything.


Huh? You mean dye the cheaper one I assume?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> Huh? You mean dye the cheaper one I assume?


Oops. Yeah. Dye the cheaper one otherwise dye sales will be through the roof!


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

My honest opinion, sounds like you need to find new customers. I don't deal with people like that. They came to buy hay from me for a reason and if they want to come tell me how MY hay should be then they can go elsewhere to buy it.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> So I guess if a customer wants to see moisture content, even after I add a preservative to bales, he would have to trust you that they are in fact preserved.





JD3430 said:


> So I guess if a customer wants to see moisture content, even after I add a preservative to bales, he would have to trust you that they are in fact preserved.


If it is fresh baled and they are worried about the moisture reading, then take a temp reading. If the moisture level is high, but the temp is normal then you know it been treated or JUST out of the baler. Molding creates heat. No heat, no mold.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

PaMike said:


> If it is fresh baled and they are worried about the moisture reading, then take a temp reading. If the moisture level is high, but the temp is normal then you know it been treated or JUST out of the baler. Molding creates heat. No heat, no mold.


Yeah, but people don't usually like "JUST out of the baler" hay very much, either. (Not sweated)
I guess if they look at it with a 24% reading, then come back a week later and its still 24%, then they could eliminate that possibility.
However, it still doesn't satisfy the possibility that there's mold inside a sweated 24% bale. I could tell them its treated till I'm blue in the face. They won't know if I was truthful till they crack them open.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Colby said:


> My honest opinion, sounds like you need to find new customers. I don't deal with people like that. They came to buy hay from me for a reason and if they want to come tell me how MY hay should be then they can go elsewhere to buy it.


I actually don't have any that are questioning me about treatment. 
I just wondered "what if"......?
I know.....don't borrow trouble.

And also Colby, I appreciate the way you roll, but you got many more years experience in the field than me. Every customer for me is a gift. 
Can't wait until I'm experienced and could tell some liberal PITA to go pound sand.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> I actually don't have any that are questioning me about treatment.
> I just wondered "what if"......?
> I know.....don't borrow trouble.
> 
> ...


Don't worry my friend, you'll get there. You've come a long ways already.

I don't have to sell to anybody and have never had a problem getting my buildings empty before its time to start again. Nothing like telling some people nope sorry, it ain't for sale.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD maybe you should just go to a hay auction as a spectator it could be a learning experience for you there is one every Tuesday at 9:30am probably just 25 30 miles from [email protected] 1597 Kirkwood pike Kirkwood pa. ..It is at the intersection of Route 472 and Noble Road


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> JD maybe you should just go to a hay auction as a spectator it could be a learning experience for you there is one every Tuesday at 9:30am probably just 25 30 miles from [email protected] 1597 Kirkwood pike Kirkwood pa. ..It is at the intersection of Route 472 and Noble Road


How much would 10 real nice, dense 4x5 round bales go for at that auction? Orch/Tim mix?


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

What size RD bales???? Weight, Height, Diameter???


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> How much would 10 real nice, dense 4x5 round bales go for at that auction? Orch/Tim mix?


If anyone can predict the results of a hay auction, I'd like some help with lottery numbers


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> JD maybe you should just go to a hay auction as a spectator it could be a learning experience for you there is one every Tuesday at 9:30am probably just 25 30 miles from [email protected] 1597 Kirkwood pike Kirkwood pa. ..It is at the intersection of Route 472 and Noble Road


Yeah, I've been up there a few times to creek view baler shop and the Amish welding shop, too. 
Only takes 40 minutes. 
I just thought maybe I'd bring a load of hay up, too.
Never did the auction thing.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Auctions are great. Easy marketing. And if it sells too cheap no need to return. But if money comes it can be great. I would bet your mushroom buyers.set the floor and.price only goes up from there.

Kinda like the scrappers at machinery auctions.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> Auctions are great. Easy marketing. And if it sells too cheap no need to return. But if money comes it can be great. I would bet your mushroom buyers.set the floor and.price only goes up from there.
> 
> Kinda like the scrappers at machinery auctions.


If you're the new guy, there is certainly a possibility that your price will seem "too cheap" compared to known sellers. The last thing you want to do is never go back because your first experience wasn't market-topping.

I've never been to any of the Lancaster Co auctions, but I can't imagine many mushroom buyers showing up at auction. With the volume of hay they need to take in each day, screwing around at auction is way down their list of priorities. The mulch price should set a floor, but not a solid one. Sometimes (though not too many times per year) I can buy hay at auction for less than the mulch price, get it delivered here for free, and then haul it one mile away to the big mulch hay grower and make money. He doesn't want to go to auction to get those rare deals. It's not worth his time. I'm there usually anyway sooooo....


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

That's my point. Usually at least one guy like that there. If two show up you create a floor. May not be mushroom guy but enough people know how much they will pay therefore creating a floor slightly lower than mushroom guys.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> If anyone can predict the results of a hay auction, I'd like some help with lottery numbers


If I could predict hay auctions or lottery numbers I sure not going to tell you.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I have found the selling price for rounds at auction in lanc county to be fickle at best. If its really good horse hay you may get an ok price if there is enough demand and all the squares are selling high. If its not GREAT hay and there is plenty of supply, plan to be disappointed.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So if I take a load up there and I want say $750 for the load and the best offer I get is $500, is it an absolute auction and I MUST take the $500? 
Or can I "take my football and go home"?


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Once they get the high bid the auctioneer looks at the seller. The seller says "yes", "no", or names a price they need. I have seen guys with nice small squares that were bid up by a horsey person so "no" and name a price $10/ton higher. Horsey person agrees and seller gets a little more money. Neighbor was hauling straw to the auction over the winter. If he didn't get enough he brought it home, backed it in the barn and took it to the sale two days later.

The problem with the big sales is that it can be an all day process especially in the winter when there are a lot of loads. Couple hours for the sale, then you gotta go get your check at the office, thenwait till it clears out so you can back out and be on your way. Then you gotta drive to the buyers location and get unloaded. The good side is you can sometimes pick up customers. I have found however up here that a lot of the buyers at the auction are experienced and are there to buy hay(no matter what grade hay) at a price of less than private sale. If they were willing to pay private sale price they would just open up Lancaster farming, and make some phone calls. The one exception is the amish and Mennonites. its easier for them to ride over to the auction and buy what suits them, than to call someone they don't know from the newspaper and trust they will deliver a load that is as they say.

One of the good target customers is the hobby farmer or horse person that doesn't have all the contacts that a fulltime farmer has. They will be willing to pay a little more for less hassle. They have a day job that foots the bill....Problem is many of them don't have loaders to unload an entire trailer of rounds. I have customers that I deliver two rounds to in the back of my truck. I push them off into their barn. They feed them/pull them apart from there...

These types of people often show up at the hay auction in the winter over a holiday week/weekend. They have off work and can go to the sale. A Friday sale after thanksgiving is usually good, and a sale right after Christmas or new years also sometimes works.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Awesome info, thanks.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Are you going to try an auction?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeah I think so. 
Depends on next weeks work load.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Only other thing about auctions is in the summer often the supply is lighter(guys are in the fields working) but the demand is usually much lighter too. Its a crap shoot...


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