# Better than lime



## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

What do you think?
https://columbiamo.craigslist.org/grq/5520827051.html


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The finer the lime the faster the reaction and the gotcha, the shorter the effect so you get to buy more it it sooner.

There is no magic to ph adjustment unfortunately. Tons of material are needed to adjust ph.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

The mushroom soil I've been using seems to be helping.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If its like the compost here it has partially reacted lime blended in.

There is a source for the MSW lime cake around here but the hauling distance is huge.



JD3430 said:


> The mushroom soil I've been using seems to be helping.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/34666-anyone-using-liquid-lime/?hl=%2Bliquid+%2Blime


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If it sounds too good to be true, or too cheap, most likely it is.

Like what has already been pointed out, the quicker the reaction, the quicker it's gone.

For new ground we like the finer lime if it needs it as it does react faster, if possible though if it just barely needs a ton we will have a coarser lime spread a little heavier so it sticks around longer.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Other sources of lime.

Sugar beat plant.It's used in the process of getting the sugar out of it.And the used lime is sold.

Sewage treatment plants used it also.Some guys use it in feedlots to build mounds.

Both are on the wet side.lol.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Yup and get a test result!!!! I was offered some semi locally but the test was something like 20% lime equivalency. The material was free but trucking 5 loads cost double what an equivalent load plain lime cost.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

This is what the local sugar beet company was charging for lime in 2015: http://www.michigansugar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/2015-Lime-Program-Prices-and-Procedures-Website.pdf


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Zuki,

I'm sorry that you have been misinformed, as have many others, about the pH reaction from fine limestone. The real truth is that larger particles of limestone have almost no effect on increasing soil pH because the surface area exposed for reaction with soil acids is so small. Think about it...if you have a 1 cm square particle of limestone, it has 6 sq cm of exposed surface area for reaction, Now cut that sq cm limestone particle into 1/2 cm squares, the surface area exposed for reaction with soil acids becomes 24 sq cm. Continue this process until the limestone is cut into very fine particles. We all understand the increased reaction of limestone as the particle size becomes smaller.

What we don't always think about is that, one ton of very fine limestone raises soil pH to a higher level than does a ton of coarser limestone. The pH value is not simply a number, but is a logarithmic function. This means that pH 6.0 is ten times less acidic than is pH 5.0. So, lets say that, on a sandy loam soil, one ton of very fine limestone raises soil pH from 5.0 to 6.2 after a certain reaction time, whereas one ton of a coarse limestone raises pH from 5.0 to 5.8. The pH difference caused by the two limestone materials is 0.4. Remembering what is underlined above, this four tenths difference in soil pH caused by the finer limestone will take longer for the soil to re-acidify to pH 5.0.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

I think this material is calcium chloride which will quickly supply calcium to plants, but not lower the pH to a great degree. Hence, the *verbal bait and switch*, "works better than lime," - right -to quickly supply calcium, but not to lower pH which is what lime will do much more cheaply. I spray calcium chloride on apples to pump the fruit with calcium, but trying to lower pH with this stuff would be questionable and very expensive.

Here is the verbal trick: "works better than lime.." We all associate lime with pH adjustment and very little with calcium needs of the crop. Lime supplies calcium, and so does this stuff. Now if your field has the pH you want and you need 50 lbs per acre of calcium, this stuff would work faster, as it enters the plant through the foliage, while the company selling this stuff is entering your wallet.


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## Tater Salad (Jan 31, 2016)

Wow ! Well said Hugh !!!!!


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Around here we have some choices on lime substitutes since our nearest lime quarry that caters to farmers is actually in Canada and must be imported. We can get a seaweed waste product which works really well, and is only $1.50 a ton, BUT it takes 10 tons of it to equal 1 ton of lime. That means on grass ground where you can only apply a ton to the acre per application, it takes FOREVER to get the ph up...and this is Maine, our PH is incredibly low. (5.2 roughly). On corn ground its not as bad as you can obviously till that amount of product into the soil, but it still costs a lot of money in diesel fuel moving that much tonnage.

Another answer is ash gotten free from the paper mills. That was a 1 ton of ash to one ton of lime so life was great for us farmers, until they realized we loved that stuff and did not like sludge, which here is the 1% of human manure that cannot be processed by sewer treatment plants. Since every municipality needs to get rid of that, some brainiac decided that if they mixed the two together, they could get rid of human manure with the stuff we needed and wanted.

I refuse to accept the stuff on my land, and for a good reason. Once applied, you cannot put a house on spread land for 100 years. I have no intention of turning my farm into a subdivision, but I don't want to limit myself to where my four daughters can put their houses in the future either. Plus...do I really want human manure from some big city of my land anyway.

Crazy huh? All I want to do is get my PH levels up so I can grow some decent alfalfa.


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

Rutted Field you may want to consider woodash from the biomass power plants. That product is 100% woodash with no sewage component. It has half the ph effectiveness of lime ( you need twice as much ash as the equivalent amount of lime) but its effectiveness is much faster acting. We've been using it for more than a decade on our alfalfa fields here in NH as it is an affordable source of K as well. We only apply in late Fall so that it does not impact palatability on the hay harvest. There are several sources here in northern new england. PM me if you want more info.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I think they mix that now with Sludge too. At least here they do, a company out of Plymouth Maine doing the mixing along with Cassella Organics out of Unity Plantation.

Robbins Lumber is building a wood boiler next year though if permitting goes through, and boy do I hope it goes through. Right now with Bucksport, Old Town, Millinockett, East Millinockett and Lincoln all shut down its hard to find a buyer for pulpwood. Madison, Jay and Skowhegan are all running at 1/2 capacity which is not helping. Biomass is not great, but we got to get rid of our wood somewhere. I got sawlogs so I'll do alright for the next 4-5 years, but I don't want to cut all of them in order to survive, getting rid of some pulp would be nice too.

We got a house in Lisbon NH as well as the ones here, and there is a wood biomass place between Whitefield and Littleton if I remember correctly. Do you get your wood ash from there?


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

RuttedField, the local source for woodash is through Resource Management Inc in Holderness, NH. They have a contract for all the woodash from Pine Tree Power and several other biomass plants. Our woodash comes straight from the power plant and is not blended with any other material.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I think the treatment plants are substituting the wood ash for lime in their process for the same reason we like it. There is a 3 year waiting list for ash on this side unless you want the low quality stuff that takes 3 truck loads to equal lime.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not misinformed, I select a grade of ag lime to spread on my fields which takes about 3-4 years to react and I'm well aware if I exceed a threshold particle size (still very small) the reaction rate is exponentially slower. Its why I have limestone rocks sitting in 5.5 ph soil.

Don't anyone spread 1/4" limestone crush on your field if thats what you think I meant, it won't do any good even in 50 years.



vhaby said:


> Zuki,
> 
> I'm sorry that you have been misinformed, as have many others, about the pH reaction from fine limestone. The real truth is that larger particles of limestone have almost no effect on increasing soil pH because the surface area exposed for reaction with soil acids is so small.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Quoted from Slowzuki:

"I'm not misinformed, I select a grade of ag lime to spread on my fields that takes about 3-4 years to react and I'm well aware that if I exceed a threshold particle size (still very small) the reaction rate is exponentially slower. Its why I have limestone rocks sitting in pH 5.5 soil.

Don't anyone spread 1/4th inch limestone crush on your field if that is what you think that I meant, it won't do any good even in 50 years."

I apologize Slowzuki. I meant no offense to you personally, or to anyone else for that matter. However, here is the research that most US universities go by. (Remember that 1 inch is 25.4 mm)

Sieve size refers to the number of holes in a linear inch of a screen. Plus, there are smaller and smaller wires separating these holes as the sieve size increases.

Sieve size 10 has holes 2.00 mm across or 0.0787 inches

Sieve size 20 has holes 0.841 mm across or 0.0331 inches

Sieve size 60 has holes 0.250 mm across or 0.0098 inches

Sieve size 100 has holes 0.149 mm across or 0.0059 inches

Limestone particles smaller than 60 mesh begin to feel like talcum power.

Motto and Milstead in 1960 studied the effect of particle size of limestone on the change in pH in three acid soils and found that the 10-28 mesh fraction was 14% as effective as the < 100-mesh fraction, whereas particles > 10-mesh size essentially had no effect on soil pH. (Ref. provided below)

Here, we rate limestone effectiveness based on these mesh sizes:

Limestone particles >8 mesh are 0% effective for changing pH. (Efficiency factor 0)

Limestone particles <8->20 mesh are 20% effective for changing pH. (Efficiency factor 0.2)

Limestone particles <20->60 are 60% effective for changing pH. (Efficiency factor 0.6)

Limestone particles <60 mesh are 100% effective for changing pH. (Efficiency factor 1.0)

A limestone sample is washed through 8, 20, and 60-mesh screens with a catch pan at the bottom of the series of screens. The pre-weighed screens with the wet limestone are oven dried and weighed. The screen weight is subtracted from the total dry weight of the pan + limestone to determine the weight of limestone on each screen. The limestone remaining on each screen and caught in the bottom pan are individually divided by the initial limestone sample weight to determine the percentage of limestone remaining on the screens. Each percentage is multiplied by its efficiency factor to determine its efficiency rating. The sum of the efficiency ratings is multiplied by the calcium carbonate equivalence of the limestone. If the limestone sample is 100% calcium carbonate, the sum of the efficiency ratings becomes the effective calcium carbonate equivalence (ECCE) of the limestone sampled.

Example of a screened limestone sample*:

8-mesh held 5.6% of the sample; efficiency rating is 0 (5.6% x 0)

<8->20 contained 28.1% of the sample, efficiency rating 5.62 (28.1% x .2)

>20-<60 contained 26.2% of the sample, efficiency rating 15.72 (26.2% x .6)

<60 contained 40.1% of the sample, efficiency rating 40.1 (40.1% x 1.0)

The sum of these efficiency ratings = 61.44

If the limestone is 100% calcium carbonate, the ECCE = 61.44%, or only 61.44% of this screened limestone will be effective for neutralizing soil acidity. Another way to look at this is that 38.56% of this limestone will not neutralize soil acidity, or 771 lb of each ton of this sampled limestone will have no effect on changing soil pH.

*These percentages multiplied by their efficiency factors gives their efficiency rating.

Allow me to restate from a previous post- The finer the limestone, the faster the pH change (no one disagrees with this) and the greater the pH increase. Because the finer limestone raises soil pH to a higher level (less acid), it takes longer for that higher pH to come back down. I have done research that shows this and would like to post this information if HayTalk would allow me to simply copy from my PowerPoint files and paste those graphs in a post. But, alas, this is not the case, and I need to learn how to do this by going around HayTalk's unwieldy program.

Sorry for being so long winded...

Motto, H.L and S.W. Melstead. 1960. The efficiency of various particle-size fractions of limestone. Soil Sci. Soc. Am. Proc. 24:488-490.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes. I have spread 60 tons of 90% lime equivalent wood ash with extremely fine particles and you can observe the changes in ph within a year even without incorporation. I just wish it came without cadmium and other heavy metals so it could be used more often.

The standard ag lime products here are minimum 50% 100 mesh and from loads I've received I'd guess almost 100% passes a 50 mesh screen.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Example of a screened limestone sample*:

8-mesh held 5.6% of the sample; efficiency rating is 0 (5.6% x 0)

<8->20 contained 28.1% of the sample, efficiency rating 5.62 (28.1% x .2)

>20-<60 contained 26.2% of the sample, efficiency rating 15.72 (26.2% x .6)

<60 contained 40.1% of the sample, efficiency rating 40.1 (40.1% x 1.0)

The sum of these efficiency ratings = 61.44

If the limestone is 100% calcium carbonate, the ECCE = 61.44%, or only 61.44% of this screened limestone will be effective for neutralizing soil acidity. Another way to look at this is that 38.56% of this limestone will not neutralize soil acidity, or 771 lb of each ton of this sampled limestone will have no effect on changing soil pH.

*These percentages multiplied by their efficiency factors gives their efficiency rating.

Allow me to restate from a previous post- The finer the limestone, the faster the pH change (no one disagrees with this) and the greater the pH increase. Because the finer limestone raises soil pH to a higher level (less acid), it takes longer for that higher pH to come back down.

Compared to the above example, if all the limestone passed the 60-mesh screen, there would be 771 lbs more lime that would react to neutralize soil acidity. Therefore, the soil pH would have increased even more and a higher pH takes longer to return to pre-lime status. This counters the thinking that finer limestone that raises pH faster also allows pH to come back down quicker than if the limestone had some larger, non-reactive particles in it.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Calpril is a very finely ground lime that is then re-prilled into a pellet. Water quickly breaks it down back to very fine particles. I have used it, it works...


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## uncleal (Nov 5, 2016)

slowzuki said:


> I'm not misinformed, I select a grade of ag lime to spread on my fields which takes about 3-4 years to react and I'm well aware if I exceed a threshold particle size (still very small) the reaction rate is exponentially slower. Its why I have limestone rocks sitting in 5.5 ph soil.
> 
> Don't anyone spread 1/4" limestone crush on your field if thats what you think I meant, it won't do any good even in 50 years.


You are absolutely correct. Ag lime has a variety of particle sizes in it that become available across a time spectrum to build residual in soil


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