# Lessons learned,



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Some thoughts about large bales and problems with slightly damp hay.

Not scientific but I have noticed that hay cut with a simple disk mower and left out flat, was ready to bale sooner, had less mold problems, &/or had heating problems, Than Hay cut with a mower conditioner and dropped in a nice looking windrow. +

The academic forage authorities from the difficult curing climates appear to agree we should drop the hay in a wide swath and left in a wide swath until the hay is reasonably cured. The theory I like is the sun shining directly on the hay will heat the moisture in the hay, this will raise the vapor pressure, and force the vapor out the nearest opening. Not that big of a problem in an arid climate.

This is even true Here with drought killed crops that is baled. Smarter than I growers have set a barn or hay yard on fire by cutting down and baling drought killed crops. Usually blamed the neighbor or kids setting the "HAY" on fire. Thing was the stems still had way too much moisture and mother nature did her thing.

In the military we said Haste Makes Waste! Works back on the farm also.

I now believe hay with leaves are not dried below 40% moisture by sunset, will meet the next day with lower feed value and less total dry matter. Respiration over night can burn up a lot of carbohydrates, over night.

I believe that mold or bacteria using carbohydrates from the hay will also lower the feed value as well as the total dry matter.

I know that hay that is round baled side by side with small square bales will be 2% lower protein than the square bales. ( We did not have enough humidity to bale all the hay in squares so Round Baled also. We both started at the same time and finished at the same time. ) That year we could run out of humidity in an hour or less.

West Virginia tells us we can start small square baling at 70% HUMIDITY but not to large bale, Baling above 65% HUMIDITY. A few years of ignorance yielded a nice supply of moldy round bales. :-(

My old hay barn could and would leak around nail holes in the metal roofing and that would result in a nice green mold the full depth of the stack.

I noticed that hay stored on dry dirt would result in white mold on the bottom bales. A few inches of stones put an end to that mold problem. Payed for the river rocks with saved hay the first year.

Out doors RB storage, the rock pad will save a lot of bales. Store RB's in long rows stacked end to end, but never have hay stored in long rows with the sides touching. If the bales are a little soft and squat in storage and then the sides touch those bales will mold.
If you are mad at your hay store them side by side in a slight depression. The RB's can rot to the core in just a few months.

When I was just a youngster in Eastern Pa I always wondered how a barn could burn. We moved to TX and HERE I learned how to burn a barn down, using damp hay. I have seen RB's stored out side, still damp burn out a hay yard with the hay heating.

As you can see I started ignorant and was slow to learn. Even at 85 I still have a lot lessons to learn.


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## BPatrick (Aug 30, 2013)

There are some people on here that make posts, and when they do I read and reread them! Thanks for the shared wisdom of years in agriculture Mr. Wilson!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> As you can see I started ignorant and was slow to learn. Even at 85 I still have a lot lessons to learn.


No Bill, you were not ignorant...you were like most in that you had to learn and you did learn. The ignorant are those that fail to learn from their previous mistakes.

Regards, Mike


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> I know that hay that is round baled side by side with small square bales will be 2% lower protein than the square bales. ( We did not have enough humidity to bale all the hay in squares so Round Baled also. We both started at the same time and finished at the same time. ) That year we could run out of humidity in an hour or less.


From years of round baling other peoples hay I could see why the protein would be lower, most simply don't make a suitable row for round baling.

They either rake it all in single rows or if they try doubling them they make em 3 foot wide, neither is conductive to a good solid bale. I make a 4' wide bale but make my rows at least 4' wide if not 5'. I want the entire bale chamber filled with hay at all times to capture any fines, if your weaving there dropping out of the baler on one side or the other. If I'm driving as fast as ground conditions warrant but it's still taking me 45 seconds to a minute to make a round bale then those rows should have been quadrupled instead of doubled. The longer it takes to make a bale the more time for leaves to fall out between the belts.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Some thoughts about large bales and problems with slightly damp hay.Not scientific but I have noticed that hay cut with a simple disk mower and left out flat, was ready to bale sooner, had less mold problems, &/or had heating problems, Than Hay cut with a mower conditioner and dropped in a nice looking windrow. +The academic forage authorities from the difficult curing climates appear to agree we should drop the hay in a wide swath and left in a wide swath until the hay is reasonably cured. The theory I like is the sun shining directly on the hay will heat the moisture in the hay, this will raise the vapor pressure, and force the vapor out the nearest opening. Not that big of a problem in an arid climate.This is even true Here with drought killed crops that is baled. Smarter than I growers have set a barn or hay yard on fire by cutting down and baling drought killed crops. Usually blamed the neighbor or kids setting the "HAY" on fire. Thing was the stems still had way too much moisture and mother nature did her thing.In the military we said Haste Makes Waste! Works back on the farm also.I now believe hay with leaves are not dried below 40% moisture by sunset, will meet the next day with lower feed value and less total dry matter. Respiration over night can burn up a lot of carbohydrates, over night.I believe that mold or bacteria using carbohydrates from the hay will also lower the feed value as well as the total dry matter.I know that hay that is round baled side by side with small square bales will be 2% lower protein than the square bales. ( We did not have enough humidity to bale all the hay in squares so Round Baled also. We both started at the same time and finished at the same time. ) That year we could run out of humidity in an hour or less.West Virginia tells us we can start small square baling at 70% HUMIDITY but not to large bale, Baling above 65% HUMIDITY. A few years of ignorance yielded a nice supply of moldy round bales. :-(My old hay barn could and would leak around nail holes in the metal roofing and that would result in a nice green mold the full depth of the stack.I noticed that hay stored on dry dirt would result in white mold on the bottom bales. A few inches of stones put an end to that mold problem. Payed for the river rocks with saved hay the first year.Out doors RB storage, the rock pad will save a lot of bales. Store RB's in long rows stacked end to end, but never have hay stored in long rows with the sides touching. If the bales are a little soft and squat in storage and then the sides touch those bales will mold.If you are mad at your hay store them side by side in a slight depression. The RB's can rot to the core in just a few months.When I was just a youngster in Eastern Pa I always wondered how a barn could burn. We moved to TX and HERE I learned how to burn a barn down, using damp hay. I have seen RB's stored out side, still damp burn out a hay yard with the hay heating.As you can see I started ignorant and was slow to learn. Even at 85 I still have a lot lessons to learn.


Farmer Wilson, 
It may interest you to know one of the big timers in my area cuts hay with a simple disc cutter (no rolls) and lays the hay out flat in the sun and seems to bale sooner than I with a new fancy pants discbine with rubber rolls. 
What I do now is what you suggest. I lay the hay out as wide as possible. Problem here in eastern PA is reliable weather. Been great here lately but that's the exception not the rule. 
I also have learned that if you can just let the hay lay in the sun without touching it, the top gets brown but the bottom stays nice and green. Mixed together, you get decent looking hay.
Too many trips with Tedder = too much leaf shatter.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Vol said:


> No Bill, you were not ignorant...you were like most in that you had to learn and you did learn. The ignorant are those that fail to learn from their previous mistakes.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Well said!

Ralph


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Rd hay stacking of my neighbors that I can't understand is rows touching on rd sides but to make matters worse setting a row of bales on top to form a pyramid.They do this and have acres upon acres to stack hay.

I remember being told by a long time custom hay baler person back in the 80's that I was wasting a trip across the field raking as he was baling the hay straight from a windrower. I was flat cutting hay,leaving hay flat then raking with a V-rake so as to rd bale.. Now nearly everyone in hay business around me cuts flat & rakes before baling.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> From years of round baling other peoples hay I could see why the protein would be lower, most simply don't make a suitable row for round baling.
> 
> They either rake it all in single rows or if they try doubling them they make em 3 foot wide, neither is conductive to a good solid bale. I make a 4' wide bale but make my rows at least 4' wide if not 5'. I want the entire bale chamber filled with hay at all times to capture any fines, if your weaving there dropping out of the baler on one side or the other. If I'm driving as fast as ground conditions warrant but it's still taking me 45 seconds to a minute to make a round bale then those rows should have been quadrupled instead of doubled. The longer it takes to make a bale the more time for leaves to fall out between the belts.


I agree 100%also the newer belt type bales have very little gap between the belts so there is very little leaf loss compared to some older rd balers like a chain and bar NH baler.The only way You are going to loose 2% of the protein is to beat the leaves off.I've gone to guys places to rd bale that they raked,and they are used to sm sq baleing,what a disaster if hay is getting on the dry side,yep you will loose all the leaves and have a bale of sticks.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> I agree 100%also the newer belt type bales have very little gap between the belts so there is very little leaf loss compared to some older rd balers like a chain and bar NH baler.The only way You are going to loose 2% of the protein is to beat the leaves off.


Also, net wrap captures the fines on the first spin. You do not see a pile of hay under a round baler like you did before net wrap became common.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tx Jim said:


> Rd hay stacking of my neighbors that I can't understand is rows touching on rd sides but to make matters worse setting a row of bales on top to form a pyramid.They do this and have acres upon acres to stack hay.
> 
> I remember being told by a long time custom hay baler person back in the 80's that I was wasting a trip across the field raking as he was baling the hay straight from a windrower. I was flat cutting hay,leaving hay flat then raking with a V-rake so as to rd bale.. Now nearly everyone in hay business around me cuts flat & rakes before baling.


Yeah, I don't get that either... and then the whole mess just about rots into the ground before it gets used...

Another thing I've seen some guys do is stack their hay under a tree... that's about the worst place you can stack it beside maybe in a swamp!

Think about it... when it rains, a tree with stop a light shower, true, but when it RAINS, that water runs from leaf to leaf and filters right down through the tree and SOAKS whatever is underneath it... trees aren't waterproof... then of course after the rain is over, the trees CONTINUE to drip water for minutes or hours (depending on the wind) before it finally runs out of water stuck on the leaves.

SO, the sun finally comes out... except under the shade of the tree, which doesn't get much sun, and so it sits there wet and going to pot... Plus, the wind is usually less under trees due to ground effect... (which pilots would understand). My old boss that I baled for did the same thing, but what was worse, he put his bales up against an old fence line under trees that were basically the lowest part of the field-- the bales would sit in a few inches of water after a typical 2-3 inch thunderstorm...

I asked him about it and he waved me off like *I* was nuts for suggesting he store his hay elsewhere...

I just don't get some folks...

Later! OL JR


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> Yeah, I don't get that either... and then the whole mess just about rots into the ground before it gets used...
> 
> Another thing I've seen some guys do is stack their hay under a tree... that's about the worst place you can stack it beside maybe in a swamp!


YEP I chuckle every time I see rd bales stored under a tree and think why don't they just put them in a ditch. Several yrs back I was baling rd bales for a rich,cutting horse neighbor. He was stacking bales as I was baling. He was laying bales on flat side out in the open then stacking touching rows on the top of the flat bales.I stopped him and ask him why he was stacking his hay in that manner. He stated his good friend told him that was the way to do itt. I told him if it rained much his hay would ROT. He continued stacking but he stacked his hay in separate rows the next year.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tx Jim said:


> YEP I chuckle every time I see rd bales stored under a tree and think why don't they just put them in a ditch. Several yrs back I was baling rd bales for a rich,cutting horse neighbor. He was stacking bales as I was baling. He was laying bales on flat side out in the open then stacking touching rows on the top of the flat bales.I stopped him and ask him why he was stacking his hay in that manner. He stated his good friend told him that was the way to do itt. I told him if it rained much his hay would ROT. He continued stacking but he stacked his hay in separate rows the next year.


Yep... pretty amazing some of the stuff people come up with...

There's a guy across the river that stacks in a 3-2-1 pyramid... looks like the rotting tower of Pisa by mid winter... ridiculous!

Guess like your horse guy, someone saw it on YouTube so it MUST be right! In fairness, I saw in one of those Haakens (IIRC) vids on Youtube showing their bale picker-upper trailer and rotating bale stacker and semi-trailer sideboards/rails them stacking rounds on end and then putting another one on top, or even double-stacking them that way... BUT-- this looked to be in a VERY dry climate area...

We get 46 inches of rain a year... do something like that, 3/4 of the hay rots into the ground...

It's hard enough to convince some guys around here that bales are actually SUPPOSED to be stacked flat end to flat end in long rows, preferably on the highest ground you've got... and to leave at least a couple feet, preferably 3-4 feet, between rows for air circulation. And if you're on flat ground (like here), especially flat wet clay (like here), to put SOMETHING between those bales and the ground to minimize losses...

I stacked on pallets that I got from the school (when I worked up there as a bus driver) because I could get the pallets for free-- they kept the ones the driver's didn't want, that had a busted board, or were just off-size or off-shape (under hot water heaters or AC units or whatever that were weird non-standard size/shape/build). Of course I learned fairly quickly that pallets on damp clay soil only last about 2 years before they're rotting into the ground... then pulling them up is a major PITA...

Tried putting a second pallet right on top of the first one... let the first one finish rotting down, holding the second one up and the row of bales sitting on the row of pallets... til they rot a little quicker on one side than the the other and the row ends up shifting in the middle and ends up pressing against the next row over, so a few bales with rotted sides... Scratch that idea!

Now I got a mess of power poles when the power company was putting up new ones... here they drop them in the ditch and it's first come, first serve. Me and three other guys were battling to get to each new pole as it came down and chain off on it and drag it back to the farm or carry it back with the loader (one guy raised the loader all the way up and went down the highway-- guess he's got good insurance!!! I chained off a pair at a time and just dragged them down the ditch bottom and the last 100 yards down the county road to the yard, and dropped them in the yard and went back for more...

I put two power poles about 3 feet apart (just inside the bale forks width) and set the round bales on them... keeps the bales up about 4 inches off the ground so they don't rot on bottom. Keeps them as good as the pallets, maybe better. Power poles should last a long time. Problem is I need more, and there's no more power lines nearby needing replaced... No ready source of poles I've found, either...

Thinking about using railroad ties, being creosote, they should hold up as well as creosote power poles, but they're only 8.5 feet long... 6 RR ties paired off 3 ties long= 25 feet, which is 5 5x5 round bales end to end... that gets a little salty at $8-10 bucks a piece for ties...

Heard of guys using old tires-- no thanks-- perfect nesting places for rats/rodents and of course snakes, and also seen bees/wasps move into that sort of thing... plus I'm about out of old tires...

Tinkered with idea of building some cheap concrete forms, laying some rebar in them, and having a concrete truck come out and pour them full of concrete-- sorta like big parking ties, maybe 10-15 feet long... then move them into position like the poles about 3 feet apart... sorta like a concrete parking tie to substitute for the power poles... might be pretty heavy though...

Some guys lay loads of broken brick or busted up concrete and set bales on that, to keep them dry on bottom and prevent wicking... would probably work well, but kinda costly and if you want to move the storage area...

Still tinkering with ideas... for now the power poles acting as rails is working good. Old pallets have moved to the burn pile...

Just don't store them under trees!!!! LOL

OL JR


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> Also, net wrap captures the fines on the first spin. You do not see a pile of hay under a round baler like you did before net wrap became common.


But but but...that's my other other moisture meter judging by the pile on the ground. If there is no leavins I am either on the edge or too moist. Now as the pile gets larger I have to wiegh factors of weather or need of getting to next field. Mind you I'm in grass fields only. Now onto bales under trees...that is a given around here, seldom will you not find rotting Alf bales under the hedge rows on the edge of field. But try to buy them at reduced price???? Good luck, most think that is the perfect place as the trees suck up the moisture from the crop (alfalfa) in that area anyway.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I like plastic pallets. May be the best thing I've ever done to preserve bales. I have about 100 of them now. They are strong, but very light. They don't rot. No nails to find your tires. No splinters. No repairs. They were 5-6 bucks a piece, but worth it.


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## sdrancher (Jul 20, 2014)

Do you guys worry about your net wrap freezing to the ground with your hay stacked in the long rows? I understand that you guys with rock, pallets, poles, etc., underneath won't have too much to worry about. We may get to that point, but right now, they are just on the ground.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

sdrancher said:


> Do you guys worry about your net wrap freezing to the ground with your hay stacked in the long rows? I understand that you guys with rock, pallets, poles, etc., underneath won't have too much to worry about. We may get to that point, but right now, they are just on the ground.


Bare ground is the worst for freezing down.A layer of grass/sod is usually enough to keep them from freezing down.Biggest issue is when snow melts and refreezes under the bales,or a ice storm.


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## IHCman (Aug 27, 2011)

All of our bales are stored on the ground, haven't had much of an issue with em freezing to the ground. Bigger problem is if the stack gets icy or a freeze thaw cycle then the stacked bales freeze together. Most years that's not a problem as ususally once it gets cold here it stays cold until April.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> Bare ground is the worst for freezing down.A layer of grass/sod is usually enough to keep them from freezing down.Biggest issue is when snow melts and refreezes under the bales,or a ice storm.


I will get a few rocks frozen to the bottom of wrapped bales under the above conditions. My pad is topped with 4- rocks for drainage. I just knock them off with a pole.

Ralph


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## slvr98svt (Jan 18, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I like plastic pallets. May be the best thing I've ever done to preserve bales. I have about 100 of them now. They are strong, but very light. They don't rot. No nails to find your tires. No splinters. No repairs. They were 5-6 bucks a piece, but worth it.


Where do you find plastic pallets for $6?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

slvr98svt said:


> Where do you find plastic pallets for $6?


No kidding, place here that has em wants $12 a piece for em, I'll stick to wood for $4. If they are rotting to quick then it's obviously time to add another thin layer of rock for the pallets to set on in the hoop buildings.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

sdrancher said:


> Do you guys worry about your net wrap freezing to the ground with your hay stacked in the long rows? I understand that you guys with rock, pallets, poles, etc., underneath won't have too much to worry about. We may get to that point, but right now, they are just on the ground.


No.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

If I was in the Dakotas, with yalls dryer climate, I'd just stack on the ground too...

Climate and rainfall patterns play a HUGE part in how hay stores on the ground... and of course ground conditions and soil types help too... the sandy soil on our Shiner place is MUCH better for hay storage than the flat wet 90%+ black clay here...

Later! OL JR


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

JR-another factor is come Oct, Nov-it all sits in a freezer. It keeps precipitating, but is frozen before hitting the ground.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

slvr98svt said:


> Where do you find plastic pallets for $6?


i got about 100 of them available at $6 each


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## slvr98svt (Jan 18, 2011)

If you weren't so far away I would buy all 100 but I think shipping to NY would be a killer.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> No kidding, place here that has em wants $12 a piece for em, I'll stick to wood for $4. If they are rotting to quick then it's obviously time to add another thin layer of rock for the pallets to set on in the hoop buildings.


I found a source that sells them extra cheap. I bought over 100 of them.
There's another guy I found that sells them on CL for $6-7. Maybe we use a lot of them in my area? 
i can also get super, steel clean painted barrels with a lid that locks air tight for cheap, but haven't found a use for them.


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

slvr98svt said:


> Where do you find plastic pallets for $6?


Looked in Houston craigslist, plastic pallets from 5 to 10 dollars

https://houston.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=plastic+pallets


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## slvr98svt (Jan 18, 2011)

Dang, I can't seem to come up with any around here.


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