# Yall heard about "B-wrap"??



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

The local JD dealer threw a little hay clinic/supper the other night... was a pretty nice deal. They had some stuff for sale out there on display with a 'show special' price on it (not that special from what I could tell) and after our brisket sandwiches they had the Deere baler guru they'd flown in from Iowa give a talk about care and feeding of the Deere round balers. He was a Deere baler guru in the Ottumwa, Iowa plant for about 30 years or so, before he left to work for Ambraco, the company that makes the Deere net wrap and one of the largest and oldest netwrap manufacturers out there. In addition to a ton of information on fine tuning, care, and feeding of the Deere netwrap mechanism on the Deere round balers, he gave a presentation of their new "B-wrap" option.

What is B-wrap?? It is a new netwrap system that works in Deere 7, 8, and 9 series balers. You have to install a special kit (about $700-800 bucks or so) with a special sensor, but once the baler is equipped, B-wrap can be installed in place of regular net, or swapped back out for regular net, in about 5 minutes-- about the time it takes to load a new roll of net. B-wrap is basically a special roll of netwrap that has breathable film bale sleeves attached to the netwrap itself. When the baler starts the netwrap cycle, a turn and a half of netwrap enters the baler and wraps the bale in the standard way, as the wrap continues to feed, the breathable film sleeve that is attached to the next turn and a quarter of wrap feeds in with the net and completely encapsulates the bale across the width of the net with a waterproof, breathable sleeve of material. As this layer attached on top of the net passes the special sensor, a metal "tag" (looking sorta like metal duct tape) triggers the sensor, which then "times" the point at which to cut off the netwrap... another turn and a half of netwrap is wrapped over the plastic film, velcro-like "sticky patches" pull loose from the roll, and the net is cut off automatically in the usual manner. The remaining film and sticky patches wrap the bale and the velcro patches lock the net in place to itself (since there is no hay sticking through the net to assist in locking the net in place.) The bale is then ejected in the usual manner.

The cost is about $6 a roll for a 68 inch bale. This compares to about $2-3 a roll for regular netwrap. They advertise it as "barn kept hay without the barn". Evidently they have been working on this for a number of years, they even experimented with feeding Tyvec house wrap (waterproof film) into round balers with net to "waterproof" the hay bales, but unfortunately the problem is with regular plastic film is when the hay inevitably sweats (as all hay does after being baled) the moisture released condenses on the inner surface of the plastic and causes a layer of slimy white mold to form on the outside of the bale touching the plastic. B-wraps film, while consisting of a plastic membrane inner and outer layer, has a layer of "fuzz" in between similar to Tyvec (I tore a sample off some of the waste section he pulled off the roll to demonstrate how it works) and this membrane has micro-pores in it that wick moisture from the bale side to the outside of the wrap, which then evaporates away. It locks out moisture from rain, snow, and ice that falls on the bale from the outside. He demonstrated this with a clear plastic cylinder with a seal in the middle of it, into which a piece of the membrane film was placed and the top and bottom half of the cylinder was locked back together. Colored water was poured into the top and would sit on top of the film several inches deep, yet when the bottom half of the closed cylinder was pumped up with a small hand air pump (like a blood pressure cuff pump) the air would bubble through the film and colored water and out the top of the open cylinder. He said that the film isn't ENTIRELY waterproof, of course, as anything with small pores wouldn't be... If it rains continuously for days, the film will get SLIGHTLY damp on the underside by the hay, but as soon as the rain stops and the wrap dries off, the moisture will be wicked right back out through the film and evaporate, keeping the hay fresh.

He said that experiments they've done, baling hay in the same field, on the same day, with the same baler, alternating between the B-wrap and regular netwrap, and storing bales side-by-side, that when they feed a bale of regular netwrap hay and then bring in another identical bale of B-wrap hay, the cattle will leave the regular netwrapped hay to get to the B-wrapped hay, because it's "fresh as the day it was baled". despite being stored side-by-side with the regular netwrapped hay from the same field. He said they have YouTube videos of this as well.

He went on to explain that B-wrap isn't for EVERY bale... first cut stuff that's not as good, would probably just be wrapped with regular netwrap. BUT, high value, or high-storage loss hay like alfalfa, sorghum-sudan, corn stalk or straw bales, peanut hay, etc. are excellent candidates for B-wrap net. Second or third cut hay that is harvested at precisely the right time and is of excellent quality and desired to be sold at a premium is also a good fit for B-wrap. Since the regular netwrap and b-wrap and easily interchangeable, it's easy to switch between B-wrap for the best hay, and if some gets rained on or part of the field is weedy or something and not as desirable and not worth the cost of B-wrap, it's easy to switch over to regular netwrap again for that part of the field.

The other drawback other than cost is the fact that due to the dimensions of a standard roll of netwrap, which will do about 120-150 bales or so (depending on bale size and number of wraps), a roll of B-wrap, due to the additional thickness of the film and velcro patches attached to the basic netwrap that makes up the roll of B-wrap, is only capable of wrapping 35 rolls of hay, and the B-wrap costs the same per roll as regular netwrap.

It was a really interesting presentation. He discussed one of their "beta testers" they had worked with in Georgia, who was baling several thousand rolls a year of peanut hay, which is quite vulnerable to storage damage from moisture and such. He couldn't sell the B-wrapped hay at a premium because nobody knew what it was and they weren't willing to pay extra, so he just sold it at the same price the first year and added a few rolls onto every load, and told them "store this side by side with the regular netwrapped hay, and then feed two of them side by side and tell me what you think". After his customers saw the difference the B-wrap made, they started specifically asking for more B-wrapped hay and agreed to a higher price for it.

Anyway, it's really interesting some of the technology that's coming out. He said the cost is the biggest holdup on it for now, but he said he could remember going out 20-25 years ago talking about how farmers needed to switch from twine to netwrap, and guys balking at $2-3 dollars per bale cost of netwrap over a buck's worth of twine on a bale..."but how many folks use netwrap now?? Most everybody!... This is the coming thing..."

It was pretty neat.

Later! OL J R


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Good reporting. Interesting.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

They have been advertising b-wrap for a couple years now. I have watched instructional videos of it and while it is interesting don't think I will be using it anytime soon. Other than price the other inconvenience of it is every bale has to be set perfectly. If a bale were to roll to much the edge of the b-wrap end would be turned up catching the rain that ran off the bale. Maybe they have perfected that issue. At the time that I studied they wanted the baler shut off before dumping bale to control how far bale rolled.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

My cost averages close to a $1 per bale for Ambraco edge to edge for 4'X64'' diameter rd balls wrapping with 2 revolutions of wrap. I normally get a little over 320 bales per roll of wrap.Wrap pre-season cost $300 & during hay season $340. I buy the 13,200' rolls of wrap. I remember when netwrap was introduced and my 435 that utilized it. JD's netwrap attachment has become a lot more trouble free since then. Now nearly all hay around me is netwraped when baled. Although I think Cover edge gives bales more eye appeal I don't like the way water can get between bale ends if not perfectly rowed up when storing outside.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

It would be cheaper to build a shed if you baled any amount of hay.

Neighbor used some last yr,he told me it was $8.00 per pale plus $350 for the baler kit.Thats for a 5 x6 bale.Ooooops the B- wrap is for a 66" tall bale requiring more bales to be made.So you better figure the cost per ton not by the bale.My cost on same size bale with netwrap on a 5.5 x 5 @ 2 wraps = .94 per [email protected] 3 wraps would be $1.40.

Hmmm $2-3 a bale for netwrap.The guy is exaggerating the cost of netwrap.Even JD netwrap doesn't cost that much.

B wrap may have its place for a few bales of primo hay if you don't want to build a shed and have something to store it in for the next 30 yrs.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Seems like a great idea for my business model since in making 1500 bales and I can only store like 150. Would like to be able to store some hay outside for 6-8 months but still be able to sell it. I don't think it'll work in my NH baler, though.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Ya, I think B wrap has its place, just not on my place....at $6 a bale, there is no way to justify for grass hay. I could certainly see it being good for peanut vine as it doesn't form a thatch and is very suceptable to moisture intrusion. Of course, I don't even think peanut hay should be baled, it's much better left to the soil. Around here the only people that feed up peanut hay is cattlemen looking for a cheap forage....B wrap negates that, but it does keep it better....that's a fact and an expensive one at that.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I would think that B-wrap with the slimy mold would be a no-go for horses. And horse owners would go insane about the slime.

Did he say anything more about it--like putting prop. acid or anything on the outer few inches?

Ralph


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

B wrap, whether it becomes common or not, is just another step along the technology road. It could become successful and common or it could go the way as the hay stacker which seemed to be the way to go back in the late 60's and early 70's. Time stands still for no one or any product.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I think the next "millionaire" could be the guy who figures out how to make a bale that doesn't require expensive, laborious, time consuming inside storage. In an age where small-medium size farming operations aren't exactly keeping up with bank executives for making money, we could use some technology advances to help us reduce costs. Storage and handling are big ticket items.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Nope, never heard of it 

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/18719-b-wrap-new-water-shedding-netwrap/


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I think the next "millionaire" could be the guy who figures out how to make a bale that doesn't require expensive, laborious, time consuming inside storage. In an age where small-medium size farming operations aren't exactly keeping up with bank executives for making money, we could use some technology advances to help us reduce costs. Storage and handling are big ticket items.


Storage costs probably prorate out to be very cheap. But I've also heard a few people posit that their storage paid for itself after the first few years. Few other things can top that.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

8350HiTech said:


> Nope, never heard of it
> 
> http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/18719-b-wrap-new-water-shedding-netwrap/


Huh. Time flies. I was thinking it was two years ago I heard of B wrap. Turns out it was four years ago. It has a place no doubt, but I don't expect it to take over the wrap industry. If it were much cheaper it would be a great thing for cornstalk bales at they do not shed rain as well as hay.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Gotta agree with swmnhay, 2 wraps about $1.00 bale in my area anyhow. Using a 7,000 foot roll, about 175 bales per roll of net wrap (64 inch).

Maybe some 'alternative' facts at work. 

Larry


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Storage costs probably prorate out to be very cheap. But I've also heard a few people posit that their storage paid for itself after the first few years. Few other things can top that.


Maybe in your area. In mine, land isn't available cheap to build a big pole barn. I'm storing hay in 150-250 yr old barns that were built when hay was brought in loose in wagons. As big as they are, they're impractical for today's round bale hay farmer
I am looking at some highway land that's unsuitable for anything other than weeds and scrub brush for a pole building as I type. 
No surprise, that there's many hoops to jump through to get the OK to build a barn on it. The local "code enforcement" doesn't know how to deal with it. Even junk land is $50,000 an acre. 
Cheapest for MY area and situation would be storage on the ground right at the field. No trailering over the road to a barn, unloading 
and needing several pieces of equipment and many days to put it up.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Maybe in your area. In mine, land isn't available cheap to build a big pole barn. I'm storing hay in 150-250 yr old barns that were built when hay was brought in loose in wagons. As big as they are, they're impractical for today's round bale hay farmer
> I am looking at some highway land that's unsuitable for anything other than weeds and scrub brush for a pole building as I type.
> No surprise, that there's many hoops to jump through to get the OK to build a barn on it. The local "code enforcement" doesn't know how to deal with it. Even junk land is $50,000 an acre.
> Cheapest for MY area and situation would be storage on the ground right at the field. No trailering over the road to a barn, unloading
> and needing several pieces of equipment and many days to put it up.


I see what you're saying but I wouldn't put storage and land in the same category.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> I see what you're saying but I wouldn't put storage and land in the same category.


Agree, but that's the only choice I'd have. The building requires a piece of land under it. I do not live on a piece of land that allows a giant pole barn. 

Now if my wife and I can grab a farm......that's a different story.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> It would be cheaper to build a shed if you baled any amount of hay.
> 
> Neighbor used some last yr,he told me it was $8.00 per pale plus $350 for the baler kit.Thats for a 5 x6 bale.Ooooops the B- wrap is for a 66" tall bale requiring more bales to be made.So you better figure the cost per ton not by the bale.My cost on same size bale with netwrap on a 5.5 x 5 @ 2 wraps = .94 per [email protected] 3 wraps would be $1.40.
> 
> ...


That's exactly what I told the guy showing B Wrap at the Sunbelt Expo a few years ago. He didn't have much to say.


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## NL80 (Mar 3, 2015)

At $6 per bale you would be much better of individually wrapping the bale with stretch film. Truthfully you would be better off using an inline wrapper at $3 per bale and putting up baleage.


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

I looked at it when it first came out, was mildly impressed until I found out how much it costs. Also was unimpressed by the fact I could only wrap 35 bales before having to change. On top of this fact at a cost of $8 a bale I could pay for a damn good barn when rolling 2000 bales a year even if I only put half of it under the barn.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Agree, but that's the only choice I'd have. The building requires a piece of land under it. I do not live on a piece of land that allows a giant pole barn.
> 
> Now if my wife and I can grab a farm......that's a different story.


I think you may have mentioned it before as an option that you'd already explored and exhausted but what about a hoop building on leased farm land? Out of sight from the mansion house, obviously.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I see a blank reply above....Paul I think your troubles lie at hand.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

stack em up said:


> .


There is a dot there for some reason.I don't have a clue what the problem is


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> I think you may have mentioned it before as an option that you'd already explored and exhausted but what about a hoop building on leased farm land? Out of sight from the mansion house, obviously.


Yeah, maybe, but most property can be seen by one or more housed around here. Soon as word gets out a huge hoop building is going up, all hell breaks loose.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> There is a dot there for some reason.I don't have a clue what the problem is


Oh that? I know what that is.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> I think the next "millionaire" could be the guy who figures out how to make a bale that doesn't require expensive, laborious, time consuming inside storage. In an age where small-medium size farming operations aren't exactly keeping up with bank executives for making money, we could use some technology advances to help us reduce costs. Storage and handling are big ticket items.


Doesn't cost that much to put up a hoop building, then when no hay is in it you can store other equipment, kinda hard to cover a combine in used B wrap I imagine. My friend is just starting to run out of hay, he's clearing the hoop buildings out so he can use em for maternity space, he'll have 150 cows dropping calves here shortly over 6-8 weeks.

EW have five hoop buildings on the farm now, have seriously considered a small one just for dumping firewood in and to keep some of my odds and ends in, like the grapple, log splitter and wood elevator.

Besides, with the B wrap your still gonna have some rain damage to the ends, I'm pretty sure my current customer who's doing equine embryo transfers wouldn't risk feeding a B wrap bale to a brood mare that the foal might be worth thousands of dollars.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

B wrap can be used until a hoop or pole building can be acquired, then discontinue use of B wrap.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Is B Wrap still pre cut to length? That was one of the draw backs when it was first introduced a few years ago. Each piece in the roll was long enough to wrap a 6 foot roll of hay. If a person made a 5 foot roll, they put more wrap than needed.

Is incorporating B Wrap with net wrap in the same roll of hay a new concept? I do not remember both working together.

Deere is pushing the B Wrap again around here.

I do not see B Wrap ever catching on. Just too expensive for the average round bale buyer to swallow.

Like others have said, I have less than $1.00 per bale in net wrap.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim/South said:


> Is B Wrap still pre cut to length? That was one of the draw backs when it was first introduced a few years ago. Each piece in the roll was long enough to wrap a 6 foot roll of hay. If a person made a 5 foot roll, they put more wrap than needed.
> Is incorporating B Wrap with net wrap in the same roll of hay a new concept? I do not remember both working together.
> Deere is pushing the B Wrap again around here.
> I do not see B Wrap ever catching on. Just too expensive for the average round bale buyer to swallow.
> Like others have said, I have less than $1.00 per bale in net wrap.


If I made 1500 bales, I would prolly wrap 1000+ of my standard bales with net and send them to mushroom. The other 500, although more costly to wrap in B, would also be my better bales and sell for more than double my mushroombales. 
A few extra bucks might be worth it.
But can you go from "net only" to "net + B" without having to break out a tool box? 
Seems like the best scenario is a baler with both types on board and the operator can switch from one to the other from the cab.
That would be great option for this hay farmer.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

IH 1586 said:


> They have been advertising b-wrap for a couple years now. I have watched instructional videos of it and while it is interesting don't think I will be using it anytime soon. Other than price the other inconvenience of it is every bale has to be set perfectly. If a bale were to roll to much the edge of the b-wrap end would be turned up catching the rain that ran off the bale. Maybe they have perfected that issue. At the time that I studied they wanted the baler shut off before dumping bale to control how far bale rolled.


He did mention that. Said it was best to turn the PTO off to dump the bale and disconnect the bale push bar so that the bale fell with the wrap seam down on the lower half of the bale, and pointed with the overlap facing downward and not upward.

I sorta ran the numbers in my head off the cuff, since they were really making the point "barn hay quality without the barn!" as a selling point. Seems to me if it costs $6 a roll for B-wrap and $3 a roll for regular net, (which you're going to use if you're not using B-wrap) then that's a difference of say $3 per roll. If you roll 10,000 bales using B-wrap, that's $60,000... seems you could build a pretty nice hay barn for that, and use it for decades (with periodic upkeep as needed). Even if you're just figuring the difference between the price of B-wrap versus regular net, that's still 20,000 bales of hay with net versus B-wrap would have saved $60,000 bucks to put towards a barn... and the B-wrap is ONLY good for ONE bale, ONE time, where you can store MANY bales over the years in that barn before it needs replaced...

Now of course that ignores the cost of having the barn-- in some areas it will run your property values up as an "improvement" to the place, will CERTAINLY raise your property taxes by whatever they value the barn at, then there's insurance on it and maintenance/repairs over the years, and whatever other costs are associated with building it (permits and such if you're in areas that require such nonsense). Those can certainly add up, particularly the tax burden since it's continuous from year to year. Tarping bales or using B-wrap would of course obviate all that extra cost and maintenance and taxes and insurance and permits and such, which over time, could be substantial savings that would lessen the cost difference between B-wrap and building a barn to keep netwrapped bales.

It's all in the tradeoffs and what it costs one to do one versus the other in their particular area. Another tradeoff is simply accepting the higher losses from uncovered outdoor storage of round bales like we do. We bale our own and feed to our own cattle; we try to minimize losses by storing round bales in rows up on a pair of light poles to keep them off the ground (and supplementing with plastic pallets since we're out of light poles) and by unrolling bales to get greater use of the hay when the cattle feed, since in our experience they waste FAR less unrolled hay than the huge mass of hay left in/around feed rings... I've thought about tarping in the past, as our area tends to be quite wet, hot, and humid-- all of which is very hard to hay stored outdoors... but so far what we've been doing has worked for us... maybe not the best, but okay...

It's interesting to be sure...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tx Jim said:


> My cost averages close to a $1 per bale for Ambraco edge to edge for 4'X64'' diameter rd balls wrapping with 2 revolutions of wrap. I normally get a little over 320 bales per roll of wrap.Wrap pre-season cost $300 & during hay season $340. I buy the 13,200' rolls of wrap. I remember when netwrap was introduced and my 435 that utilized it. JD's netwrap attachment has become a lot more trouble free since then. Now nearly all hay around me is netwraped when baled. Although I think Cover edge gives bales more eye appeal I don't like the way water can get between bale ends if not perfectly rowed up when storing outside.


This was something else he discussed which jogged my memory...

He was talking about the different kinds of wrap... some is "oily" and some is not. The oil comes from the fact that as the wrap is "knitted" from individual strings in the factory, that the "needles" or whatever that actually "knits" the netwrap from twine gets SO hot from friction that they'll melt the plastic twine! So, they have to be "oiled" by a machine that dispenses just the proper amount and kind of lubricant onto the needles to keep them cool enough to knit the netwrap without melting it. Ambraco has done a lot of research into this and figured out exactly how to do with the correct type and kind of oil and how to cut the use of it to the bare minimum. "Cheap" netwrap, on the other hand, is usually made on machines running nondescript oil at higher volumes to keep the knitters cool enough, and that oil is of course constantly transferred to the twine being pulled over/around/through the needles as it knits the netwrap. Since Ambraco focused on reducing the oil to the bare minimum required and formulating it to do a better job with less, the netwrap does not end up "oily", whereas cheap netwrap can be QUITE oily. He said the best way to test this is to pull a few feet off the wrap and run it through your hands... if your hands come off feeling oily, then it's oily netwrap. Oily netwrap is bad because it gums up everything-- the rubber roller, which then needs to be constantly dusted with talcum powder, which then cakes on, it attacts dirt, it causes the net to stick and follow the belts and wrap up in the top roller of the baler, instead of following the hay around in the bale chamber til it overlaps... all sorts of problems can be traced to oily wrap. He said if you have to use more than a teaspoon of powder per roll of net, you're probably running oily wrap... if you have to clean your rubber roller often or have issues with wrap sticking to the rubber roller or top roller in the baler, often it can be traced to oily netwrap.

He also explained that Ambraco is the only approved manufacturer of JD netwrap. He of course explained a lot of the quality differences between "cheap" wrap and Ambraco JD netwrap, and in particular coveredge netwrap. The Ambraco coveredge actually uses a springy cord in the outer edge twine that covers the edge, since it has to "cinch in" over the edge of the bale to a smaller diameter than the bale itself. "Cheap" wraps will have a non-stretchy twine in this outermost "coveredge" position, which will not draw up properly because it's not pre-tensioned by being stretched as it's applied the way the Ambraco stretchy outer twine will.

Course, the fellow was an Ambraco salesman/guru, so of course he's trying to sell their product... which stands to reason. I found it interesting the differences he pointed out, however, and wished to pass them along.

He also pointed out that THE biggest mistake he sees folks making is putting on TOO LITTLE wrap. Now, he qualified that comment by saying, "Yep, I'm a net salesman, and I stand to gain by selling you more net-- BUT net doesn't do you much good if you have bales busting open when they hit the ground or bust open in handling or storage..." This is true. He said that the standard recommendation is 2-3 wraps, depending on what your baling and bale size, and for stuff like stalks and stover, the recommendation is 4 wraps MINIMUM. He pointed out that saving that percentage of bales that would unzip the net or bust open when using less net MORE than pays for the additional net to prevent them from busting in the first place...

Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there, FWIW...

later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> I would think that B-wrap with the slimy mold would be a no-go for horses. And horse owners would go insane about the slime.
> 
> Did he say anything more about it--like putting prop. acid or anything on the outer few inches?
> 
> Ralph


I think you misunderstand... B-wrap is to PREVENT the layer of white slime mold...

I sleeved some soybean bales years ago... it was 96 and we had a KILLER drought (they were losing 40,000 head a week to drought down the Coastal Bend of Texas (south Texas) and I made it through baling road hay to feed the cows til we got some rain. We lost our cotton crop that year and I had put down a healthy dose of Trifluralin and a heavy dose (in a band) of Cotoran or Caparol behind the planter, and both of those kill grasses. Insurance paid us to plow up the cotton that DID come up in late June, and then we FINALLY got a little rain in July. I needed to plant SOMETHING for hay (it hadn't rained a drop since we planted in early April) and I figured the herbicide might kill my germination on something like sorghum/sudan haygrazer or grain sorghum, since Trifluralin and Cotoran/Caparol are all grass killers primarily... Trifluralin is a pre-emerge for soybeans, so I figured at least they would only have to contend with the remaining Cotoran or Caparol, and that had been disked/plowed out into a larger volume of soil, so it should be "diluted" enough to not kill soybeans, so I planted the whole place in soybeans. I flat planted (since we usually plant here on raised beds) so that I could make a decision later on... if the beans looked like they'd make a good crop of grain, I'd go on and finish them out and combine it and sell the grain and buy hay... maybe it would rain and I could make SOME hay and not have to buy too much, and come out with some money in the end from the beans. If the weather refused to cooperate or the beans didn't look like they'd make much of a grain crop, I'd just cut the beans directly with the hay mower, dry them down, and bale them up as soybean hay. We got enough rain to get them up around knee high, and had plenty of crabgrass and johnsongrass come up in places as well, but then it turned dry and they sorta stalled out, and then we got an infestation of armyworms, so I had to either spray them with insecticide or cut them for hay, RIGHT THEN. I put the hay mower on and cut the whole farm for hay. Don't recall how many 5x6 bales of soybean hay I got... quite a few... and since the stalks were kinda big and the bales wouldn't "thatch over" like grass hay to keep water out, I got plastic bale sleeves from TSC (which they sold at the time) and sleeved all the bales as we brought them out of the field and put them in the storage pen.

Later when I was feeding them, they had that white "slime" layer of mold on the outside, not that it seemed to bother the cows at all... I was also feeding some grass hay I'd gotten from here and there and I even carried over some of those soybean bales for another year or so... what was amazing to me was that even when I was feeding PRIMO quality bahiagrass hay made late that summer side by side with these moldy 1-2 year old soybean bales, the cows would LEAVE the NEW bahiagrass bales to RUN to get this soybean hay when I'd unroll it... it was amazing to me...

ANYWAY... the fellow had said that Ambraco and Deere had experimented with putting regular Tyvec house wrap or various plastic wraps around bales with the netwrap to see if they could come up with something that would work. He said that, because ALL hay INEVITABLY goes through SOME level of a 'sweat" after it's baled, even supposedly "bone dry" grass hay or stalks/stover which one might think WOULDN'T sweat, that bales wrapped with plastic or Tyvec would INEVITABLY sweat and form humidity which worked its way out of the bale to the outer layer of plastic or Tyvec... since those are IMPERVIOUS to water, they would NOT let that moisture escape, and so it would condense on the INSIDE of the plastic where it contacts the bale, and that moisture would then wet down the outermost layer of the bale and cause the white slimy mold on the outside layer of the bale touching the plastic or Tyvec.

SO, they had to INVENT a film that would be "waterproof" against rain, snow, and ice, but still WICK WATER AWAY from the bale when the bale inevitably went through a sweat, so that the water would NOT be trapped under the plastic next to the hay and cause it to form white slimy mold. That's the secret to B-wrap-- it has tiny pores in it which won't let water in from the outside, (unless it stays wet for days, then it will get slightly "moist" on the inside layer) and yet will WICK away any moisture from the INSIDE of the wrap to the OUTSIDE so that it can evaporate away in the sun and wind. Regular plastic simply traps the moisture under the plastic-- B-wrap takes the condensation that forms on the underside of the wrap when the bale sweats, and WICKS IT OUT through the micro-pores to the outside layer where it evaporates away, thus NO SLIMY MOLD... the hay is supposed to be as fresh as if it were stored in a barn with B-wrap.

When torn, the stuff looks rather like black Tyvek housewrap... Tyvek is actually a trade name for a kind of plastic/paper hybrid material that is waterproof. Tyvek, when cut or torn, will have "fibers" in it like "hairs" or something, much like paper, but it's tougher than paper and waterproof like plastic sheet. I took some scrap B-wrap in my hands because my question was, "HOW WELL will this stuff hold up to stubble puncture, coarse/sharp stalks or stray weeds or sticks or whatever in the hay poking the wrap, how tough will it be to handling-- is it brittle or resilient, stretchy or strong, etc. SO I grabbed some and started poking it and pulling at it... it's NOT stretchy, at least not very much... not anything like say a trash bag which will stretch and deform before finally puncturing when you push your fingers through it. B-wrap will stretch and deform A LITTLE, but no more than Tyvek house-wrap would, which is to say, VERY LITTLE. It is pretty tough, but with enough force you CAN poke a hole through it with your fingers... and when it tears, it tears like Tyvek... you could see a layer of "breathable plastic" on the outside and the inside (the inside has tiny "dimples" in it in a cross-hatch pattern, almost like micro-sized diamond plate, as opposed to continuous dimples like a golf ball...) The outer layer is smooth, not quite slick like plastic-- more like regular Tyvek. In between there's clearly a layer of a fibrous material that supports the other layers... which will produce "hairs" when torn, just like Tyvek house wrap will... Apparently the main difference between this stuff and Tyvek is that Tyvek has COMPLETELY WATERPROOF plastic layers, and B-wrap uses BREATHABLE (wicking) plastic layers to get rid of the moisture from inside the wrap... (and which, he admitted, WILL allow a TRACE of moisture through to the inside if it stays wet for days on end, like if it rains every day for a week or whatever... but this moisture will then re-evaporate back through the wrap when the outer layer dries, drying the hay back out).

Anyway, with B-wrap, there should be NO slime layer... unlike plastic sleeved or plastic wrapped bales...

Later! OL J R: )


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> I would think that B-wrap with the slimy mold would be a no-go for horses. And horse owners would go insane about the slime.
> 
> Did he say anything more about it--like putting prop. acid or anything on the outer few inches?
> 
> Ralph


Oh, and no, no comment about acid or preservatives... no discussion about that at all at the presentation.

Not really used in our area. This is dry hay country... LOL

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mike10 said:


> B wrap, whether it becomes common or not, is just another step along the technology road. It could become successful and common or it could go the way as the hay stacker which seemed to be the way to go back in the late 60's and early 70's. Time stands still for no one or any product.


Interesting that you mention the stackers... I take it you're talking about a "Stak-Hand"??

Those never really were used in our area, but I've seen them in other places. I guess they had their place but were superceded by newer technology and different methods.

It's funny because I was reading an article about a guy in Florida, IIRC, who was trying to find a way to make his own hay for his small beef cattle operation. He didn't like relying on custom operators because he'd been burned too many times by guys not showing up to cut, rake, and bale in a timely manner, didn't like the extra expense, and due to the climate needed to store all his hay indoors anyway. For awhile he used an old Stakhand; liked the way it pulverized the hay as it blew it into the chamber, but they didn't store well in his climate and the old machine was nearly dead anyway. Plus, he needed his hay to be stored under a roof and be portable-- things with Stakhands didn't really allow for. He didn't want to spend the money on a baler, or buy a junk one and be fixing it all the time, and have to build a barn and pay taxes on it and insure it. SO, he got a brainstorm. He got an old flail silage chopper for nearly nothing and did some tests-- but instead of chopping green standing grass (greenchop) or green standing crops (silage) with it, he decided to chop dry hay with it. It worked-- the cows loved the chopped up hay and it did well, like with the Stakhand, but he needed a way to store the hay under a roof and still be portable.

His solution was to get a couple old trailer house frames and build "portable barns" on top of them. Basically a plywood floor capable of supporting the load of hay, and then a wooden framework supporting a tin roof on top, with sheet-metal sides. The front had an opening that the chopper's chute could blow the hay the length of the trailer and deposit the hay from the back to the front, filling the trailer completely full of chopped hay. Then the door could be closed and the trailer stored until needed, with the hay safely under cover inside. When it's time to feed, the bottom half of the walls were hinged so that they could be opened one section at a time, allowing the cattle to eat directly from the trailer... as they cleaned out the rear of the trailer, the next forward doors would be opened week by week to allow them access to the hay further up the length of the trailer until they'd completely cleaned it out... a simple sweeping removed what was left for them to clean up.

He said with 2-3 of these trailer house "barns on wheels" he could make and store all the dry hay he needed during the summer for his herd without the expense and trouble of a baler-- just a mower and rake, and the flail chopper to pick up the windrow of dry hay from the rake and chop and blow it into the trailers pulled behind... Plus the hay was INSTANTLY under cover and yet still portable, as the trailers could be moved between farms or pastures as needed or into storage areas. No baler to maintain or keep supplied with twine or wrap, etc. etc. etc. No barns to keep insured or taxed either, as the trailers, not being permanently placed, aren't considered "barns" to charge property tax on...

Interesting idea to be sure. Probably pretty unusual for most folks, but an innovative way to solve the problem, and if it works for him, well, more power to him!

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Doesn't cost that much to put up a hoop building, then when no hay is in it you can store other equipment,
> 
> (Snip)
> 
> Besides, with the B wrap your still gonna have some rain damage to the ends, I'm pretty sure my current customer who's doing equine embryo transfers wouldn't risk feeding a B wrap bale to a brood mare that the foal might be worth thousands of dollars.


That's true...

The guy's recommendation for avoiding damage to the ends on hay stored outside (B-wrap or regular net) is to leave about a 6 inch or so "gap" between the ends of adjoining bales for "air space" so they can dry out... let the wind and sun in there to do the job.

I guess if you have the room, that's great... but kind of a PITA... Dunno about you guys, but I can't see the backside of the bale when I'm moving them or stacking them... it's all by "feel"... doesn't matter if it's on the rear end forks/spear or front end loader, you STILL cannot see the far side of the bale away from the tractor... so how you gonna put them 6-8 inches or a foot apart when you stack them?? Back up til they hit, then pull forward?? Sure, but some will be 2-3 inches apart and others a foot and half apart. Course all that extra space adds up quick and suddenly you need a lot more room to store the same amount of hay... Plus it takes a lot longer to stack them when you have to back up (or pull forward on the FEL) til they "bump" then move a little bit away to set them down and pull out of the bale and go get the next one... If you have the space and the time, that's fine... But most guys in these parts simply look for the highest ground they have and shove those bales tight together, sometimes into rows an 1/8 of a mile long in places, and sometimes rows 2-3 feet apart with up to 6-8 rows side by side...

At least MOST guys stack that way, that don't have barn... only a few yo-yo's left around that stack bales ROUND SIDE TO ROUND SIDE (0000) pushed tight together so the water funnels down between them and rots the sides out, or even worse, double-stacks them pyramid style outside with NO tarp or cover for them to rot out...

We put ours up on top of a pair of light poles set about 2.5-3 feet apart like railroad rails... this holds the bales up off the damp clay ground (which seems capable of wicking moisture up from China) and keeps the bottoms of the bales from going bad. We're out of poles, with no local source available now that they've replaced most of the old ones, and so I'm getting some scrap plastic pallets to add more storage space-- at least it's a moisture barrier between the damp clay and the bale bottoms. I don't mind so much the occasional moisture damaged end... if the bale is shaped right and they're both level and pushed up tight together, they usually "seal off" from water infiltration between them pretty well... it's when I get the occasional "wedge-shaped" bale that they don't sit square and level and tend to open up a gap at the top that lets water get in between them where I see some end damage.

At least that's my experience...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> Is B Wrap still pre cut to length? That was one of the draw backs when it was first introduced a few years ago. Each piece in the roll was long enough to wrap a 6 foot roll of hay. If a person made a 5 foot roll, they put more wrap than needed.
> 
> Is incorporating B Wrap with net wrap in the same roll of hay a new concept? I do not remember both working together.
> 
> ...


Yep, it's the same... 35 bales per roll, 68 inch bale diameter max recommended (not even fully 6 foot, though he said you can probably get away with it most of the time-- but you MIGHT see an occasional "gap" where the black B-wrap layer didn't quite overlap...

The stuff we saw looks like regular netwrap to an extent-- it feeds in a wrap of regular net around the bale to hold it together, then the layer of B-wrap is attached to the net itself on the inside of it, which is the second wrap around the bale, then another wrap and a half of netwrap with the "velcro patches" on it to hold the B-wrap layer in place after it's on. Basically the B-wrap "rectangles" of material (the width of the bale by the circumference of the bale, which should be about (2 Pi x r or 6.28 x 3, which should be about 19 feet long roughly) placed in the regular netwrap and attached to it to feed in with it into the bale chamber... The net acts as the carrier for the B-wrap waterproof layer-- the first wrap of regular "net" wraps the bale to hold it together, and carry the B-wrap layer stuck to the net into the chamber and wrap the bale, then another wrap and a half of net is applied OVER the B-wrap to hold it on the bale from the outside, sandwiched between the inner and outer layers of net... it's all on roll, with the B-wrap layer attached periodically to the regular netwrap.

Using the (2 Pi x R) formula for circumference of a 6 foot diameter bale, that would equate to roughly 20 feet per revolution, just rounding it off... (6.28 x 3 foot radius) So a 1.5 wrap of net around the naked bale in the chamber would be 30 feet of bare net, followed by 20 feet of B-wrap layer attached to the inside of the net, than another 30 feet of net on the outside to hold the B-wrap in place on the bale... the B-wrap layer has a metallic "tag" in one corner that passes an electronic sensor, which pings the monitor to tell it when the layer of B-wrap has passed the sensor-- the monitor then calculates when to activate the knife to feed in that last 30 feet of net AFTER the B-wrap layer passed the sensor, depending on the programmed bale diameter and RPM's the baler is turning. That allows the outside wrap of net to 'lock in' the B-wrap layer, and also since net doesn't stick too well to itself without hay and stuff sticking through the net to help "lock" it together (which nothing sticks out since there's a slick layer of B-wrap over everything) they put the "velcro patches" (3 of them spaced across the width of the net) near the end of this 30 foot length of net that is wrapped around the bale after the B-wrap has passed the sensor, so that these patches feed past the knife before the monitor cuts the wrap off... they feed in and around the bale with the end of the wrap and lock it in place against the previous wrap of net over the B-wrap layer to keep the net firmly attached to itself.

So, basically, if you unrolled a roll of B-wrap, you'd see about 30 feet of regular net, a 20 foot length of B-wrap layer over the net, then another 30 foot length of wrap, with 3 "velcro patches" attached to the net, continuing into another 30 foot length of net... or basically 60 feet of net with 3 velcro patches across it in the middle, with a 20 foot length of B-wrap layer in between these 60 foot lengths of net. There's enough for 35 bales, so this pattern would continue 35 times down the length of the net.

Because the B-wrap layer takes up space, and because a roll of netwrap can ONLY be "so big" (it has to fit the dimensions of the roll of netwrap the baler is designed to handle, which is to say, the same length and diameter as a roll of "regular netwrap"... but since the B-wrap layer adds additional thickness, this has to come out somewhere. Because the B-wrap is thicker, you can't roll as many layers of it onto the netwrap spool as you can thinner standard netwrap, hence why you can roll enough netwrap on a spool to do say 150 bales with 3 wraps of standard wrap, but only enough B-wrap to do 35 bales on the same physical size roll of B-wrap. That, and the B-wrap requires additional wraps, for all intents and purposes, 4 wraps of net versus the average 2-3 being used with regular netwrap. (1.5 wraps of net, 1 wrap of B-wrap, and then 1.5 wraps of net w/ velcro ends-- 1.5+1+1.5=4)

SO that's why so many less bales per roll of B-wrap versus regular netwrap...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> If I made 1500 bales, I would prolly wrap 1000+ of my standard bales with net and send them to mushroom. The other 500, although more costly to wrap in B, would also be my better bales and sell for more than double my mushroombales.
> A few extra bucks might be worth it.
> But can you go from "net only" to "net + B" without having to break out a tool box?
> Seems like the best scenario is a baler with both types on board and the operator can switch from one to the other from the cab.
> That would be great option for this hay farmer.


No, you can't hit a button and "switch on the fly" (at least not yet-- if there's demand for it at some point maybe they'll offer a baler that does that).

No "wrenches required" basically; but you DO have to pull the roll of regular netwrap out of the baler and install a roll of B-wrap, and then start that roll-- basically no harder than loading a new roll of wrap, so IOW about a five minute job?? They both load exactly the same way, and then you hit one button on the monitor to tell it your using B-wrap versus regular net and that's it IIRC... (dunno maybe the sensor does that for you, since it will detect the tag automatically on B-wrap and no tag on regular net...)

BTW the guy said always load net with your thumb between the rubber roller and steel roller, not using a wrench-- it can cause problems because too much net is pushed in when using a wrench... causes wrapping around the rollers, unzipping of the net, etc.

He also said he's had guys say, "I'll wear myself out loading B-wrap, having to load another roll every 35 bales versus every 150 with regular wrap..." His comment was, "yeah, but you're not gonna wrap EVERYTHING with B-wrap... just the good stuff or what needs it... If you're in the field and say "man this is the best hay I've had in awhile!" I'm going to the barn and pop a roll of B-wrap in the baler and set the regular net in the truck... If you're baling really good stuff, you're looking at what, installing 3-4 rolls of B-wrap versus 1 of regular??

At least so goes the theory the guy was telling... Guess it depends how good the hay is and how many you're rolling a day...

He said B-wrap costs the same PER ROLL as the regular net... so if you're getting 150 bales out of a regular net roll vs. 35 bales per B-wrap roll, you can figure the costs for yourself...

Later! OL J R


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> He did mention that. Said it was best to turn the PTO off to dump the bale and disconnect the bale push bar so that the bale fell with the wrap seam down on the lower half of the bale, and pointed with the overlap facing downward and not upward.
> 
> I sorta ran the numbers in my head off the cuff, since they were really making the point "barn hay quality without the barn!" as a selling point. Seems to me if it costs $6 a roll for B-wrap and $3 a roll for regular net, (which you're going to use if you're not using B-wrap) then that's a difference of say $3 per roll. If you roll 10,000 bales using B-wrap, that's $60,000... seems you could build a pretty nice hay barn for that, and use it for decades (with periodic upkeep as needed). Even if you're just figuring the difference between the price of B-wrap versus regular net, that's still 20,000 bales of hay with net versus B-wrap would have saved $60,000 bucks to put towards a barn... and the B-wrap is ONLY good for ONE bale, ONE time, where you can store MANY bales over the years in that barn before it needs replaced...
> 
> ...


Which would make it almost pointless in hilly country and a pain if you moved them. My price for net is about $1 also per bale. Figured it out when switching from twine to net to see if I had to raise price. It came out to the same price. I used a lot of twine, can't stand crappy looking bales.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

In my opinion, Ambraco net wrap is considered a cheap (as in quality) net wrap. Tried it once and that was more then enough for me. It is a very thin, flimsy net wrap. I can see why the rep said to apply more. It takes more to come close to less applied with a quality net.

I have a friend who runs 2 Deere balers, a 458 and 469. He was afraid to run anything other than Deere net, afraid it would not work and cause adjustments.

I was ordering net wrap and asked if he wanted any of a different, stronger brand. Buying in bulk saves us all some coins. He ended up buying 10 rolls from the pallet. He was sweating when he ran out of the old and it came time to switch over.

He did make an adjustment. He went from 3.5 wraps to 2. He is still talking about how much better the other net wrap is and how he feels stupid for drinking the KoolAid for so long.

BTW: Deere round baler only has a 46 inch chamber. That allows the net to slip over the edge when the bale is ejected. It does cover the edge better than the other brands with a 47 inch chamber.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

luke strawwalker said:


> Course, the fellow was an Ambraco salesman/guru, so of course he's trying to sell their product... which stands to reason. I found it interesting the differences he pointed out, however, and wished to pass them along.
> 
> He also pointed out that THE biggest mistake he sees folks making is putting on TOO LITTLE wrap. Now, he qualified that comment by saying, "Yep, I'm a net salesman, and I stand to gain by selling you more net-- BUT net doesn't do you much good if you have bales busting open when they hit the ground or bust open in handling or storage..." This is true. He said that the standard recommendation is 2-3 wraps, depending on what your baling and bale size, and for stuff like stalks and stover, the recommendation is 4 wraps MINIMUM. He pointed out that saving that percentage of bales that would unzip the net or bust open when using less net MORE than pays for the additional net to prevent them from busting in the first place...
> 
> later! OL J R


Ambraco's "alternative facts" seem to come to mind. I guess I'm lucky, using the cheap stuff, 2 wraps, no blow outs, hands don't seem to be "oily", not using talcum power, goes over the edge well. Could be just in MY area though. 

Larry


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

r82230 said:


> Ambraco's "alternative facts" seem to come to mind. I guess I'm lucky, using the cheap stuff, 2 wraps, no blow outs, hands don't seem to be "oily", not using talcum power, goes over the edge well. Could be just in MY area though.
> 
> Larry


im in competition with them so I have heard a lot of their alternative facts.What really got me is at a show I left for the restroom and come back to find their salesman looking threw my customer books.Unethical as hell.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

What other brands are people having good luck with in JD balers. I can see where the thinness of it would cause problems. I am still using ambraco. Really want to order from swmnhay due to all the good reviews everybody gives it, however I still do not use enough to justify buying a pallet at this time and nobody to split it with. I am also leery of just trying anything, as long as I run ambraco I know what I have to deal with.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IH,

I am using Pritchett net wrap, bought my first pallet back in 2008 (from Jay, sorry Cy), I was the only one in my area using net wrap. Took me a couple of years to use up, but I figured out that even with 'tying' my cash up I could come out a head, even if I borrowed the money. I will tell you the net wrap did not spoil. 

I would suggest that you put a pencil to YOUR situation to see if cost savings can make the difference or not.

I have had split pallets delivered with 51 inch, 64 inch and twine on top. This year I am considering some 1.2 poly for a couple of guys to try (you know farmers, they need to have the experience).

As a side story, last year I split a pallet with a neighbor, they only wanted 4 rolls. With the price difference they went to almost 100% net (verse twine), because of speed mainly. They ran out of net wrap while baling straw, went to JD dealer got a roll of net (IDNK brand, in defense of Ambrose). Straw bales where 'blowing' up on them in the field (using the same number of wraps as my net wrap). Begged me (and got) my spare rolls of net wrap. This year they want 10 rolls. I don't plan on becoming a dealer, just trying to save myself (and a few neighbors) a couple of bucks.

EXPLORE your options that might work in YOUR area (splitting pallets, mixing twine and net wrap sizes, etc.). What I have been told, it is the shipping costs you need to look at. As an example: a pallet of net wrap and a pallet of twine, could ship for less than each would separately. Kind of like doing hay, takes just as long to get the equipment ready to bale 2 acres as it does for 20 acres.

My two cents,

Larry


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

r82230 said:


> IH,
> 
> I am using Pritchett net wrap, bought my first pallet back in 2008 (from Jay, sorry Cy), I was the only one in my area using net wrap. Took me a couple of years to use up, but I figured out that even with 'tying' my cash up I could come out a head, even if I borrowed the money. I will tell you the net wrap did not spoil.
> 
> ...


I explore lots of options, that's why I'm still using JD. This year my net purchase and with all the rebates paid $276 each instead of $310 No payments/No interest for a year. Options like that work good for my cash flow. Truck deliveries are also more enticing when you have pallet forks.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

IH 1586 said:


> What other brands are people having good luck with in JD balers. I can see where the thinness of it would cause problems. I am still using ambraco. Really want to order from swmnhay due to all the good reviews everybody gives it, however I still do not use enough to justify buying a pallet at this time and nobody to split it with. I am also leery of just trying anything, as long as I run ambraco I know what I have to deal with.


I know of a custom baling business that runs 3 JD 569s and uses all Pritchett. By my best guess they must use up at least a dozen pallets of net per year. I'd say by that measure Pritchett works pretty good in Deere balers.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

IH 1586 said:


> I explore lots of options, that's why I'm still using JD. This year my net purchase and with all the rebates paid $276 each instead of $310 No payments/No interest for a year. Options like that work good for my cash flow. Truck deliveries are also more enticing when you have pallet forks.


I hate rebates,they are a PIA and can be forgotten and not sent in.I know I have.And I've had some denied for some reason or another.And there has been times they never show up.I don't care what the product is rebates suck,just sell it to me at the rebated price it would save a lot of hassle and time for everyone.

Why do companies use rebates?Because a lot are never turned in!


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

swmnhay said:


> I hate rebates,they are a PIA and can be forgotten and not sent in.I know I have.And I've had some denied for some reason or another.And there has been times they never show up.I don't care what the product is rebates suck,just sell it to me at the rebated price it would save a lot of hassle and time for everyone.
> 
> Why do companies use rebates?Because a lot are never turned in!


Rebates was probably the wrong word. Should be discount, there is a certain percentage they take off for all purchases on farm plan. Purchased all my filters, parts, 2 drums of oil, plastic wrap, and net so it was quite a large sum....but I don't have to have all that cash up front, get preseason pricing, and take care of it when cash starts flowing.


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

I too use a farm plan charge card from Deere and get discounts that way which is the main reason I still use it. Have wanted to try some pritchett net but nobody around here uses it and I can't afford a whole pallet when I'm only using 10 rolls a year right now.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

McDonald Family Farms said:


> I too use a farm plan charge card from Deere and get discounts that way which is the main reason I still use it. Have wanted to try some pritchett net but nobody around here uses it and I can't afford a whole pallet when I'm only using 10 rolls a year right now.


Here is how I would look at this using IH's price of $276 per roll and Mac's 10 roll usage per year and a pallet of 20 rolls.


$276 times 20 (two years' worth of net wrap) equals $5,520
$250 times 20 equals $5,000 one half of this amount $2,500
$225 times 20 equals $4,500 one half of this amount $2,250

The half amount (either $2,500 or $2,250) is the amount of capital I would have tied up in inventory for the second year.

At $250 per roll I paid $520 a pallet less, but I have $2,500 tied up for one year (you are using the first 10 rolls and cost up in year one). If I was to borrow this amount at 5% (just checked with Farm Credit yesterday, their rate was 4.1% for two years). This $2,500 loan would have an interest charge of $125 (cost of money). So my $520 'savings' would be reduced by my COM (cost of money) of $125, netting me (no pun intended) $395. As long as I could have a COM less than 21%, I would buy at $250 per roll. Hence, borrow from FCS at 5% (as long as there are no other hidden fees), I would make 16% on their money (saved dollars minus interest paid divided by capital invested).

Now the numbers for the $225 per roll looks even more ridiculous (in my mind). $1,020 less cost and a COM number of 45%.

This is with all other factors being even, eg. same number of wraps used, same length of rolls.

Just for those (like me) who might not use 10 rolls of net wrap a year. You could get a pallet of 16 verses 20 rolls (I did the first time I ordered). And let's say you use 4 rolls per year.

At $250 per roll your COM has to be less than 7%
and
At $225 per roll your COM has to be less than 15%

This is all using some numbers from MY area (where I used simple interest rates in the calculations, I can get net wrap even cheaper than $225, but you need to check with your supplier for pricing in your area).

I believe if you check with Cy or JJ, for those who are color specific, they have green, red, blue or white net wrap (sorry orange/yellow guys). And put the pencil to work with YOUR numbers.

My two cents.

Larry


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Thanks for doing some math for me you have me looking lol I've been searching for ways to cut costs and this looks like it may help. Do you have any pics of bales made with this netwrap wanna make sure they'll still be tight and square shouldered. How many wraps per bale do you put on average grass hay? I'm putting 3 per bale with JD wrap right now.


r82230 said:


> Here is how I would look at this using IH's price of $276 per roll and Mac's 10 roll usage per year and a pallet of 20 rolls.
> 
> 
> $276 times 20 (two years' worth of net wrap) equals $5,520
> ...


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

While I agree wholeheartedly with Larry's logic and math, the one thing it doesn't account for is the possibility that a different aftermarket brand would be available to purchase nearby and also be a good product. In my case I'd like to try some Pritchett but I do quite well with NETEX Extreme and at a good price so I haven't caved in and had a pallet of Pritchett shipped.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

McDonald Family Farms said:


> How many wraps per bale do you put on average grass hay? I'm putting 3 per bale with JD wrap right now.


I'm curious as to why you put 3 wraps of Ambraco(JD) netwrap on grass hay? I have very few problems putting only 2 wraps of the JD wrap on grass hay for yrs. I experimented with 2 rolls of Pritchett wrap last yr and was not that impressed so I'll stay with Ambraco.


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

I had a lot of trouble with bales slouching and bottoms rotting/ripping out when only using 2 wraps, currently all our hay is stored outdoors and so is all the hay I sell to customers. I have several customers that buy from me specifically because I use more net than my local competitors and are still able to move my hay after 9 months sitting outside without making a huge mess. 85% of my business is custom baling and selling hay right now and my customers have all asked for or been pleasantly surprised that I use more net. The cost difference is negligible compared to the amount of business it has gained me.



Tx Jim said:


> I'm curious as to why you put 3 wraps of Ambraco(JD) netwrap on grass hay? I have very few problems putting only 2 wraps of the JD wrap on grass hay for yrs. I experimented with 2 rolls of Pritchett wrap last yr and was not that impressed so I'll stay with Ambraco.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I understand that the extra $.50 per bale is not a bad investment. I'm selling some 2015 hay that has 2 wraps that the wrap touching the ground is fine. I had some last yrs hay that had mature ryegrass caused from delayed baling due to rain that the rodents cut trails in the net that touched the ground. I think the rodents would have cut through 4 or more wraps.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

McDonald Family Farms said:


> Thanks for doing some math for me you have me looking lol I've been searching for ways to cut costs and this looks like it may help. Do you have any pics of bales made with this netwrap wanna make sure they'll still be tight and square shouldered. How many wraps per bale do you put on average grass hay? I'm putting 3 per bale with JD wrap right now.


I bale mainly alfalfa or alfalfa/grass, using 2 wraps. IMHO, square shoulder and tightness are a baler/operator strongly influenced and the net wrap wouldn't have much.

I was just at a local hay auction Monday and did see some bales that were slouching. I don't bale as loose as those bales were however (there were both net and twine wrapped bales). But I suppose in the defense of loose bales, there would be more of them to sell. Maybe I am the dumb one, looser bale, more bales, sell by the bale, more dollars .

My hay is almost 100% stored outside. I don't presently have any pictures, but I just sold the last of my 2015 1st cutting two weeks ago to a horse lady. I stacked them two high (single row) 3 on bottom with 2 on top (5x5 bales) on her trailer. She hauled 4 loads 30 mile one way, with none of them tipping or falling off (should give you an idea of square-ness of bales). The reason I still had some 2015 was a customer wanted me to keep for him, then he 'forgot' to come and pay/get them (I will learn someday :huh.

To Jim's point with grass he could be on to something with two wraps (IDK about different type of grasses however) and until you try something else you may or may not find it works (to Jim's point again, Ambrose works for him).

Larry


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Tx Jim said:


> I understand that the extra $.50 per bale is not a bad investment. I'm selling some 2015 hay that has 2 wraps that the wrap touching the ground is fine. I had some last yrs hay that had mature ryegrass caused from delayed baling due to rain that the rodents cut trails in the net that touched the ground. I think the rodents would have cut through 4 or more wraps.


Yeah I had some get into some oat hay one time was a bad deal.

One of my other main reasons for the three wraps I guess is we use an inline trailer and pushing the hay on is hard on the bottoms when they've been sitting.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

r82230 said:


> I believe if you check with Cy or JJ, for those who are color specific, they have green, red, blue or white net wrap (sorry orange/yellow guys). And put the pencil to work with YOUR numbers.
> 
> My two cents.
> 
> Larry


48 & 51" only come in green

64 & 67" come in green with limited supply of blue,red and white.

or a multi color pallet


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> 48 & 51" only come in green
> 64 & 67" come in green with limited supply of blue,red and white.
> or a multi color pallet


OK, I stand corrected the JD guys should be happy. If you are only a 4 footer, white, blue and red guys join the yellow and orange boys.  I don't care about the color, I just know it works OK for my situation.

Back to regular scheduled programing.

Larry


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

r82230 said:


> I don't care about the color, I just know it works OK for my situation.
> 
> Back to regular scheduled programing.
> 
> Larry


IMHO "green netwrap" gives bales more eye appeal because it tends to make the hay look GREENER!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Tx Jim said:


> IMHO "green netwrap" gives bales more eye appeal because it tends to make the hay look GREENER!


Depends on how green the hay is to start with.


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

r82230 said:


> This is with all other factors being even, eg. same number of wraps used, same length of rolls.


Rolls are not same length.

Ambraco/John Deere 64" is 9,700ft, 67" is 9,000ft.

Pritchett 64" and 67" is 7,000ft or 8,000ft (China made) and 7,000ft (US made). At least according to Pritchett website.

Which Pritchett net are you all using? US made or made in China?

I get along fine with two wraps of ambraco. Have had a couple bust when net froze to ground. Think the seam has to be just right to bust when froze.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

I know most of my Pritchett was Chinese. I used one pallet that didn't come from swmnhay that was 8000 footers, I see they are for sure Chinese. In any case, zero problems with it. For hay here, I put on 2.25 wraps and with Pritchett I think that is overkill. Cornstalks I will use 2.5 or 3.25 depending on the customer, and that is a bale that weighs in the 1250# range. Bean straw is 3.25 always, in '15 bean bales weighed 1600#


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Never used Pritchett wrap but I did price some last year from cy, price per roll was cheaper but his rolls were shorter so his cost per foot was more. When buying wrap the only thing that matters to me is cost per foot.

On the subject of buying a pallet at a time saving $10 a roll it's just not worth it to me tying up capital. I only used around 25 rolls of wrap this year so cost savings is minimal. For the price of a pallet of wrap I can buy a tractor flip it and make 4 times what I'd save on the net wrap. I understand everyone's situation is different though.


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

I could see another source of added cost to using B-wrap. Snags, partial bales, anything that would short circuit the sequence of net - film - net for each finished bale.

In order to keep the computer - Velcro tags on track so that the net would be cut at the right time, you'd have to manually long-wrap the next bale, etc., etc.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

> When buying wrap the only thing that matters to me is cost per foot.


I suggest what matters more is the cost per bale. When I switched from standard Netex to Pritchett, the cost per foot was higher with Pritchett but I could use enough less of the Pritchett per bale that my cost per bale was actually lower than with Netex.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I started using Pritchett two years ago. Previously, I had been using Tytan. Here's the things I noticed:

1) The Pritchett roll (7000 ft) is about 20-30 lbs heavier than Tytan. To me, that means there is more material per foot which, in turn, translate into better, tighter coverage.

2) Pritchett wrapped bales seem to stand up better for those bales that are stored outside. The bottom side seems more durable.

3) The cost runs almost the same, depending on where I bought it and when.

4) I like it better than Tytan.

Ralph


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

We noticed immediately how rolls stood up with Pritchett compared to the nets made by Tama. We had some rolls staged on a fence line. Some were wrapped with Tama, the rest wrapped with Pritchett when we used the last of the other. The weaker net allowed the rolls to squat and had a flat surface on the ground soaking up moisture. The Pritchett rolls were still standing up. The density was turned up the same with both.

I just moved 96 rolls home. All the rolls were standing up, not squatted.

Even when I ordered a partial pallet the cost was the same as buying other wrap locally. We saved a lot of money per roll last year when enough of us had switched over to order a whole pallet.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Tim

The bales not squatting is a good point. I didn't see my Pritchett wrapped bales very long after they had been baled as they were sold & gone. Squatted bales definitely have a lot more ground contact than totally rd bales. Anyone know of a cheaper way to get some 4' Pritchett wrap to Texas?

Jim


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I can not buy into the assumption that the type of net will cause bales to squat. It is not the net which keeps bales standing tall, but outside factors such as moisture, the guy doing the baling, the guy doing the raking, type of crop, maturity of crop, etc.

This in one of those questions, is it a causation for the squatted bales, or it is an association for the squatted bales. In other words, did the net allow the bales to squat, or was it that a particular brand of net was used under different conditions where the conditions alone might allow squatting.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Mike10

I agree with you. Too high moisture content of hay & not enough baling pressure will definitely cause bales to squat


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mike10 said:


> I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I can not buy into the assumption that the type of net will cause bales to squat. It is not the net which keeps bales standing tall, but outside factors such as moisture, the guy doing the baling, the guy doing the raking, type of crop, maturity of crop, etc.
> 
> This in one of those questions, is it a causation for the squatted bales, or it is an association for the squatted bales. In other words, did the net allow the bales to squat, or was it that a particular brand of net was used under different conditions where the conditions alone might allow squatting.


Some netwraps stretch more then others.Pritchett netwrap is a low stretch netwrap therefore it holds the shape better.I also put it on the bale as tight as I can to help hold the shape and shed water,thinner netwrap will just snap off as its being applied at that tension.

I agree wet bales,bales that are loose are going to squat more no matter what netwrap you use.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

mike10 said:


> I should probably keep my mouth shut, but I can not buy into the assumption that the type of net will cause bales to squat. It is not the net which keeps bales standing tall, but outside factors such as moisture, the guy doing the baling, the guy doing the raking, type of crop, maturity of crop, etc.
> 
> This in one of those questions, is it a causation for the squatted bales, or it is an association for the squatted bales. In other words, did the net allow the bales to squat, or was it that a particular brand of net was used under different conditions where the conditions alone might allow squatting.


My experience was in exact conditions. Ran out of one net, replaced with the different net in the same field, baling the same day. The rolls were moved to the fence row the same day. The thinner weaker net stretched over a 3 month period of being in the elements. My son pointed it out. The wraps were different colors, the squat was obvious.

Both were tight rolls to begin with. I crank up the density because I feed all my hay and do not want to haul more rolls for the same tonnage.

Thin flimsy net wrap will stretch.

I will take a picture tomorrow of the rolls I just moved home. They have been outside since September until now.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

If Pritchett wrap won't squat like Deere wrap that will be reason enough for me to buy a pallet of 51" wrap. Attached is a picture of some of my hay taken last week that was baled in july.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

IMHO, there are a number of reasons for a bale to squat:

1) Bale tension too loose so that the bale doesn't have enough internal tension and collapses on itself.

2) Insufficient number of wraps to hold the bale together (I use 2 3/4).

3) Bale drop from side load trailer when moving (my bales tend to loosen up when hauled in my side dump because the drop about 3 feet.)

4) Net wrap of poor quality.

5) Net wrap brake too loose such that the wrap doesn't grab on to itself to hold together.

6) Probably a few more reasons that I haven't seen myself.

Just thinking.

Ralph


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> If Pritchett wrap won't squat like Deere wrap that will be reason enough for me to buy a pallet of 51" wrap. Attached is a picture of some of my hay taken last week that was baled in july.


That is still holding up well. Not nearly the squat I had with the Tama.

Mine had a flat spot with a black bottom.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> My experience was in exact conditions. Ran out of one net, replaced with the different net in the same field, baling the same day. The rolls were moved to the fence row the same day. The thinner weaker net stretched over a 3 month period of being in the elements. My son pointed it out. The wraps were different colors, the squat was obvious.
> Both were tight rolls to begin with. I crank up the density because I feed all my hay and do not want to haul more rolls for the same tonnage.
> Thin flimsy net wrap will stretch.
> I will take a picture tomorrow of the rolls I just moved home. They have been outside since September until now.


That is the information which gives value to your assumption. I still have a hard time imagining the net stretching so much that the bale would squat but I do not have any experience with Tama. I do not expect you to do it, but It would be interesting if you could run a tape measure around a Tama bale and a Pritchett bale to give some kind of idea on how much the net stretched.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

2ndWindfarm said:


> I could see another source of added cost to using B-wrap. Snags, partial bales, anything that would short circuit the sequence of net - film - net for each finished bale.
> 
> In order to keep the computer - Velcro tags on track so that the net would be cut at the right time, you'd have to manually long-wrap the next bale, etc., etc.


No, that's not how it works...

The COMPUTER wraps the bale, PERIOD. All you do is hit a button on the monitor telling it your running B-wrap which switches the "modes" in the computer, so it starts reading the sensor, which it uses in combination with the RPMS of the baler to determine how long to wait after the sensor reads the "tag" in the last corner of the B-wrap layer and then calculates how long to wait to cut the wrap off, after the velcro patches have cut. There's NOTHING manual about it... once the wrap cycle starts, the COMPUTER determines how fast the wrap is feeding in, reads the tag, then determines when to engage the cutoff knife once the velcro patches are past...

Now, if you're finishing a field or something and have say a 3-4 foot diameter bale in the chamber and want to B-wrap it, you can hit the "manual wrap" button and start the wrap cycle manually, but the COMPUTER STILL controls the wrap... in that case it STILL feeds the SAME AMOUNT of wrap into the chamber, but that footage of wrap is going around a smaller bale, so you get MORE OVERLAP... instead of say 1.25-1.5 wraps of net ahead of the B-wrap layer, you're gonna have more like 2-2.25... then the fixed-length B-wrap layer goes on, but instead of a 1.1-1.2 wrap of the moistureproof layer, it's going to wrap around the bale like 1.75 times, the tag triggers the sensor and the computer starts counting-- based on RPMS of the baler (to determine the speed the net is being fed in, NOT how many times the bale actually turns in the chamber). SO, the last layer of "outer net" to secure the B-wrap layer will do like the first layer-- instead of about 1.25-1.5 wraps with the velcro patches, you're gonna have more like 2-2.25 wraps with the patches... So basically the thing is feeding in the EXACT same length of net every time REGARDLESS of bale diameter...

It MUST operate this way because it is ESSENTIAL that the first wrap and a quarter of net is there to secure the bale, then the full wrap with a little overlap of B-wrap moisture proof layer, then another wrap and a half of net with the velcro patches to secure the B-wrap in place... that sequence MUST be maintained EVERY TIME to ensure that all bales are wrapped correctly.

That's why you're not supposed to make 72 inch bales with B-wrap, either... they're sized for 68 inch bales... if you roll up a 72 inch bale, basically it's hit or miss if you get ANY overlap of the B-wrap layer... *theoretically* it SHOULD have an few inches to a foot or so of overlap... BUT if the bale is a little 'oversize' then it's QUITE POSSIBLE that the B-wrap layer will have a GAP between the ends of it when it's spit out of the baler...

Think of it this way... wrap a piece of printer paper around a Quaker oats box, or around a box of salt, and then wrap the SAME sheet of printer paper around an old paper towel roll... which will have "more overlap"?? The paper towel roll, of course, because it's smaller diameter. If you wrapped the same sheet of printer paper around say a Christmas cookie tin or a big coffee can or a clothes basket, it wouldn't even overlap itself... Same thing with the B-wrap... a FIXED LENGTH of material is applied to EVERY BALE, and depending on the size of the bale determines how much overlap there actually is of the layers... And there's 35 "printer paper" sheets on every roll of B-wrap, which does 35 bales, REGARDLESS of whether they're 68 inch diameter or 30 inch diameter...

Later! OL J R


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I have not used any of the Tama made net wrap since changing over a couple of years ago. Our Vermeer dealer said the net inconsistency almost put him out of business. (I liked it because it was made in Israel vs China, ******* rational).

My Vermeer book says to tighten the net brake until there are occasional small horizontal tears (windows) in the net after being applied to the roll of hay. I could never get the net to work right when I pulled it that tight. The inconsistency of the net would cause it to tear while applying. Some would be fine, other times the net would break and I would get a "No Net" error message. The net would be torn into before finishing the wrapping cycle.

I played with the adjustment until I had it tight enough to get a good clean cut on the knife and not have the net break during the cycle.

With the stronger net I have a lot more brake tension. I do not try for the small tear windows like I did when first learning net wrap. The thick vertical strands will not allow it to tear as easily as when both vertical and horizontal material is the same. I just adjust the brake until the net does not rip while applying. The adjustment is a few threads more than when I used the thinner net.

In truth, comparing 2.5 wraps of a lighter material to 2.5 wraps of a heavier material is not fair. I run 2 wraps now compared to 2.5 - 2.75 before.

To each his own. As long as a person is satisfied with what they are using everyone is happy.


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

Alright...thanks. I think I've got a clearer picture of how the system works. So, based on your explanation, the cost/ton for anyone using a 4x5, 4x6 baler would be even higher.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

rjmoses said:


> 1) The Pritchett roll (7000 ft) is about 20-30 lbs heavier than Tytan. To me, that means there is more material per foot which, in turn, translate into better, tighter coverage.
> 
> Ralph


I think Ralph is pointing out an important point here and everyone can do their own 'check'. Weight a new roll of what ever different brands of net wrap you choose. With the same length rolls, the weight will tell you a lot. IMHO

Larry

PS I don't remember the weights for Pritchett, ask Cy or JJ for that info.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

In MY area, all the local dealers have "winter parts discounts" where they give 5-15% off on parts. Most of my dealers include net wrap as a "part".
I usually buy better quality wrap now while it's discounted for the same price as cheap wrap. 
Way cheaper than paying shipping on those heavy rolls.
I buy the 13,200 rolls of Tama and have had good success.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Here's some photos of some hay my '05 JD 467 made last summer utilizing 2 wraps of JD(Ambraco) edge to edge wrap. I think they look fairly round for an old worn out JD round baler that's baled over 22,000 bales.


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

Tx Jim said:


> Here's some photos of some hay my '05 JD 467 made last summer utilizing 2 wraps of JD(Ambraco) edge to edge wrap. I think they look fairly round for an old worn out JD round baler that's baled over 22,000 bales.


Good lookin' bales, there! Can you meet the semi driver...?


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Nice bales Jim! Your baler is the same year as my 780A and 2000 bales more experienced. I used some JD net this summer and got along with it just fine.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Thank you 2ndWindfarm & Gearclash. If I can't make a good bale of hay after almost 30 yrs in custom baling business I need to QUIT!!!!!!!


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