# Orchard grass troubles.....again



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Some of you may remember my thread from last year about my orchard grass stand loss https://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/73474-orchard-grass-stand-loss/.....well its a new year but the same old problems I have always had with orchard. I was hopeful that the high potash fertility program I have been using this year which was recommended by the agronomist was going to solve my issues with orchard grass dying off but unfortunately it looks like that wasn't the issue. I made 2nd cutting about a month ago and have had the same kind of die off as I always do where a substantial amount of the plants just don't recover. Now that fertility has been ruled out I just don't know what the issue could be. Unless I can find an answer to my issue I guess I'm no longer going to attempt to grow orchard......very frustrating.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Forgot to add the pictures.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Hayden, for what it is worth, I had a lot of die out this spring from lodging kill on a new stand and some on a 2 year stand. Just too thick and too wet and when it went down, it was over. May not be the same thing as what you are dealing with but I know in mid april it was a full stand.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Sorry to hear that . I know my orchard grass was at a complete standstill when we had our little heat wave. I have to wonder if it gets just too hot there for orchard grass . How does it do along the wood line where it doesn’t get sun all day ?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> Hayden, for what it is worth, I had a lot of die out this spring from lodging kill on a new stand and some on a 2 year stand. Just too thick and too wet and when it went down, it was over. May not be the same thing as what you are dealing with but I know in mid april it was a full stand.


 I think this is a different issue but I experienced what you are talking about on some orchard I planted into alfalfa last fall. Great stand before first cutting this spring and no initial die off after first cutting but the alfalfa jumped ahead of the orchard and lodged on the second cutting and smothered 95% of the orchard out.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

farmerbrown said:


> Sorry to hear that . I know my orchard grass was at a complete standstill when we had our little heat wave. I have to wonder if it gets just too hot there for orchard grass . How does it do along the wood line where it doesn't get sun all day ?


 Maybe so.....just can't figure anything else out. Although this year has not been overly hot or dry.....been a pretty good average year. The stand loss extends all the way to the edge of the field.

Hayden


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Just from reading over the years, I get the impression orchard grass can be fragile, not unlike Timothy. Smothering via lodging, I don't like this business of being cut - so I'm going to die, heat stress, etc. I believe OG can go dormant too. Sometimes it seems some of my Timothy goes dormant after cutting and doesn't green-up until cool/rainy fall weather, perhaps OG is the same.

I always thought OG as tough/durable as fescue, but not so and truly around here you don't see pure, straight OG fields. They are a mix of OG, fescue and frankly native grasses and weeds - so no bare patches.

Starting last year, we're overseeding every fall. There are always patches and thinning of Timothy and I want them filled-in with Timothy, hence overseeding. Unless you can find the cause of the OG failure, is it possible what you're seeing in your area is normal and maybe annual overseeding becomes the remedy?

Just some thoughts...
Bill


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

leeave96 said:


> Just from reading over the years, I get the impression orchard grass can be fragile, not unlike Timothy. .
> 
> ........
> 
> ...


From the looks of the pictures, I would suspect 1) too much traffic causing crown damage, or 2) insect damage like grubs, etc.

OG can be pretty fragile and goes dormant about like timothy.

Ralph


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Those pictures look like what our fields looked like at Green up this past spring.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

All this talk of going dormant is not the reason dairy's here went to planting straight Orchard. Keeps growing through the heat of the summer where the Timothy would take some time off and come back in the fall.

The field I took back from my cousin had many bare spots due to scalping and have filled in since I have had them. I don't think there are many of us cutting grass under 2 inches on here.

This sounds like an ongoing issue, is it all fields or just this one? Brand of seed or type of soil in general?

Your in a different climate so maybe not good questions.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

leeave96 said:


> Just from reading over the years, I get the impression orchard grass can be fragile, not unlike Timothy. Smothering via lodging, I don't like this business of being cut - so I'm going to die, heat stress, etc. I believe OG can go dormant too. Sometimes it seems some of my Timothy goes dormant after cutting and doesn't green-up until cool/rainy fall weather, perhaps OG is the same.
> I always thought OG as tough/durable as fescue, but not so and truly around here you don't see pure, straight OG fields. They are a mix of OG, fescue and frankly native grasses and weeds - so no bare patches.
> Starting last year, we're overseeding every fall. There are always patches and thinning of Timothy and I want them filled-in with Timothy, hence overseeding. Unless you can find the cause of the OG failure, is it possible what you're seeing in your area is normal and maybe annual overseeding becomes the remedy?
> Just some thoughts...
> Bill


 My experience with orchard here has been it's extremely fragile.....more so than Timothy. Unfortunately it has not gone dormant....it just did not recover after being cut and flat out died. Overseeding every year might be an option to keep a stand going but at the cost of orchard grass seed I don't think that's going to be a viable option. Orchard grass seed is much more expensive than Timothy and the seeding rate is higher too. Not to mention by mid summer the stand has already 50% or so died off so it is thin for the remainder of the year which is just an invite for weeds and the fall cutting would not be very good.

Hayden


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Maybe a dumb question on my part, but do you see any difference in the variety of OG you plant? Don't ask me to name any OG varieties, that's not in my wheel house, BTW. The OG I grow is whatever self seeds.

Larry


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> From the looks of the pictures, I would suspect 1) too much traffic causing crown damage, or 2) insect damage like grubs, etc.
> 
> OG can be pretty fragile and goes dormant about like timothy.
> 
> Ralph


 It does appear to not like being driven on but there is no way I can reduce the traffic from the hay making. In these small fields you do have a lot of extra turning so a substantial amount of the field gets driven on but the same traffic doesn't phase alfalfa or Timothy. Insects feeding on the roots were an initial suspect of mine but I have not been able to find any last year or this year.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> All this talk of going dormant is not the reason dairy's here went to planting straight Orchard. Keeps growing through the heat of the summer where the Timothy would take some time off and come back in the fall.
> 
> The field I took back from my cousin had many bare spots due to scalping and have filled in since I have had them. I don't think there are many of us cutting grass under 2 inches on here.
> 
> ...


 Yes this is an ongoing issue and the stand loss always occurs in the summer months. I have had this same issue every time I have grown orchard. I went away from growing it for a few years then started growing it again last year and have experienced the same old problems now the past two years.

Part of this field was cut 5" tall with a haybine and the rest 3" with a disc mower(high as it would cut). I saw no difference between the cutting height and the stand loss.....both areas of the field had the same die off.

Same issue in multiple fields over the past years. Soil type is pretty similar between fields though.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

r82230 said:


> Maybe a dumb question on my part, but do you see any difference in the variety of OG you plant? Don't ask me to name any OG varieties, that's not in my wheel house, BTW. The OG I grow is whatever self seeds.
> 
> Larry


 I'm convinced it's not a variety issue as I have planted multiple different varieties and have not seen any differences in the stand loss between varieties. Some of the varieties I have used were supposed to be very hardy and bred for southern locations like Persist.

Hayden


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

The parts of mine that died out because of lodging were dead when I cut first cutting. Probably could have saved most of it had I been able to cut May15 but was not able to cut until June 17th and then the ground was too wet. one weird year.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I know we have talked about the amendments several times and that you are putting high levels of K on the field......but what about P? Phosphorus is what makes plants more tolerant of heat and drought. I think that I would do a soil sample right now out of the dead areas and have it specifically tested for P levels. I know that you have done soil testing but I would want to be able to eliminate the P levels 100% as to the cause. I know for two years I had a area that I could not keep the Orchard growing even though my soil tests came back at OK levels. I dosed that area heavy with P&K and that remedied the Orchard grass dying out in that area. Phosphorous is critical with Orchard in this heat of our region.

Regards, Mike


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

Maybe a stupid question but is there another variaty or brand that you can use?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Aaroncboo said:


> Maybe a stupid question but is there another variaty or brand that you can use?


 I have tried multiple different varieties and they have all had the same stand die off problem.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I know we have talked about the amendments several times and that you are putting high levels of K on the field......but what about P? Phosphorus is what makes plants more tolerant of heat and drought. I think that I would do a soil sample right now out of the dead areas and have it specifically tested for P levels. I know that you have done soil testing but I would want to be able to eliminate the P levels 100% as to the cause. I know for two years I had a area that I could not keep the Orchard growing even though my soil tests came back at OK levels. I dosed that area heavy with P&K and that remedied the Orchard grass dying out in that area. Phosphorous is critical with Orchard in this heat of our region.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Last year about this time of the year I did a soil test of both major and minor elements in the field where I had the orchard die off. Upon recommendation of the agronomist I was working with I used a different lab than the NCDA lab I had been previously using. He said he felt their recommendation for the amount of potash was too low considering my soil level. Sure enough the potash level in the soil was considered low and had a much higher recommendation of how much to apply. My phosphorus levels were not too bad though and only recommended to apply 50 units of P. I have well exceeded this amount of phosphorus and applied 46 units of P before first cutting along with 120 units of K and 68 units of N, after first cutting I applied 500 pounds an acre of 9-23-30 which gave me 115 units of P and 150 units of K, after this second cutting I applied another 120 units of K along with 47 units of N. With that much amendments I can't see how either my P or K could be the issue.

I was really hopeful this high fertility program was going to solve my orchard die off issue but it looks like it has not. For the amount of money I have spent on fertilizer this year you can imagine how discouraging and frustrating it was when I discovered I had the same old die off issue.

Hayden


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

No standing water in the affected area at anytime I suppose?

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> No standing water in the affected area at anytime I suppose?
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Nope, this is upland so no place for water to stand. The stand loss is pretty even across the whole field with a few places being worse with close to 100% loss.

Hayden


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Had same issues here and started raising that mower up and it helped TREMENDOUSLY . So don't get to greedy . Sharp blades and 3" stubble .


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Unfortunately, there was so much lodging here this year I had to lower blades and still did not get the field clean until some of the second cutting. Did not want to just the way it was this year.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Well you've addressed the fertility so I'd look at insects and disease.Sent in a sample of dead plants for testing?Maybe you need to spray with a fungicide and or insecticide?

Split some stems open to look for issues?

Found this with a Google search and the pick of a field with Bill bug damage looks similar to yours.
https://extension.umd.edu/sites/extension.umd.edu/files/_docs/Orchardgrass%20Strategy.pdf


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

That is excellent information Cy. I am guessing that Hayden will find his problem somewhere within the confines of that article.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

siscofarms said:


> Had same issues here and started raising that mower up and it helped TREMENDOUSLY . So don't get to greedy . Sharp blades and 3" stubble .


Nope, Hayden does not cut low....closer to 5" high mowing for him in many instances.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Think he's had bill bug problems in the past....that may be the culprit. Army worms are in full force here.....lost about 25 ac so far, so I feel the pain of insects and it hurts in the pocketbook....


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> Think he's had bill bug problems in the past....that may be the culprit. Army worms are in full force here.....lost about 25 ac so far, so I feel the pain of insects and it hurts in the pocketbook....


 No, that was white fringed beetle grubs feeding on the roots of the alfalfa. Yesterday evening I was checking a field of alfalfa that is about 10-14 days away from cutting and I noticed army worm moths flying around.....laying eggs I'm sure. Guess I better get the sprayer hooked up ready to go and keep an eye out for the worms before they eat it up.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Well you've addressed the fertility so I'd look at insects and disease.Sent in a sample of dead plants for testing?Maybe you need to spray with a fungicide and or insecticide?
> Split some stems open to look for issues?
> Found this with a Google search and the pick of a field with Bill bug damage looks similar to yours.
> https://extension.umd.edu/sites/extension.umd.edu/files/_docs/Orchardgrass%20Strategy.pdf


 Yep, that is a very good article. I also came across it doing a google search the other day.

There was some leaf diseases and rust in the field when I cut second cutting but nothing too bad and it overall looked like a healthy stand.

Insects feeding of the roots was high on my list of suspects last year but myself and the agronomist were not able to find any. That is when he became pretty certain it was a fertility issue which it appears now that it is not. I have not taken the time this year to dig around to make sure there are no insects feeding on the roots. The picture of the bill bug damage does look nearly identical to my pictures. Think I have read somewhere the best way to check for bill bugs is to pour a bucket of soapy water on the ground and if there are any billbugs present they will come to the surface.

Hayden


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I do think that it would be a good idea to take several clippings dead and alive with roots and have them checked for disease.....then if you could eliminate disease, it would almost have to be subterranean. And if it was below ground insects, I would try and find some not so environmentally friendly insecticide and give them a dose of that "old time religion".

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I do think that it would be a good idea to take several clippings dead and alive with roots and have them checked for disease.....then if you could eliminate disease, it would almost have to be subterranean. And if it was below ground insects, I would try and find some not so environmentally friendly insecticide and give them a dose of that "old time religion".
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Well I spent some time in the field this afternoon inspecting the orchard grass. At first glance there was no apparent insect damage but upon closer inspection of a clump that was all dead except for a single sickly looking tiller I noticed there was indeed insect damage down inside the base of the tiller. I found a very tiny little grub/maggot that was almost too small to see. All of the plants that were struggling to regrow had this same damage so I'm going to assume that is what contributed to the die off I have been having. The clumps that look healthy I could not find any feeding damage. I poured a bucket of soapy water in multiple locations in the field and was able to find a few very small black beetles.....I'm guessing these may be the suspected bill bugs.

I think I will still send off a sample of the plants to check for disease as well to make sure that isn't contributing to the stand loss as well.

Hayden


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Here is a picture of the feeding damage to the orchard grass and the small black beetles I found.














Hayden


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Here is a picture of the feeding damage to the orchard grass and the small black beetles I found.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would expect Warrior to wipe out above ground plant feeding grubs.....spray when it is going to be dry for two or three days to fully give the grubs a chance to feed before it rains. You have found your problem. Probably need to start spraying right after first cutting...twice....ten days apart.

If you think that they are invading in first cutting, maybe spray when the plants or 6"-8" tall so that you can get down into the plant base.

It would be good if you could find out what insect it is that is laying the grub eggs so that you can better understand its lifecycle for spray applications.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I would expect Warrior to wipe out above ground plant feeding grubs.....spray when it is going to be dry for two or three days to fully give the grubs a chance to feed before it rains. You have found your problem.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 The grubs have bored into and are actually feeding on the inside of the tiller base. I'm not so sure a pyrethroid on the outside of the plant will control them. Was thinking I may need something systemic to get them.....of course there isn't anything labeled for hay.

Hayden


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I stand corrected.....Lambda-Cy will not kill grubs as it does not migrate down far enough on the plant to kill base feeders. I just saw this on applicator site.

Regards, Mike


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

Well, I had that same problem last year in Fescue after the first cut.. same little bugs, I posted pics here somewhere also.. They looked like tiny bill bugs with a magnifying glass but I'm not sure..

I never was able to figure out what they really were or how to prevent it...

This year I haven't seen anything of them but we are much wetter than we were last year by a long ways...

Be sure and post more info if you figure anything out..


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> It would be good if you could find out what insect it is that is laying the grub eggs so that you can better understand its lifecycle for spray applications.
> 
> Regards, Mike


The grubs were so small they could hardly be seen....wouldn't show up in a picture. I was assuming it was the grub of the small black beetle in my picture which I was thinking might be a bill bug. It's so small it's hard to identify but the damage looks and sounds just like bill bug damage. Here's a couple articles I found specifically on bill bugs in orchard grass. Sounds like they are going to be hard to control. 
https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/444/444-041/444-041.html
https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/444/444-040/444-040.html
https://watermark.silverchair.com/jipm4-00b1.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAbEwggGtBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggGeMIIBmgIBADCCAZMGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMNbvDeWM_hDHCATRUAgEQgIIBZFP47wv1edJMivhOxff7li2im_fqm41Pwyn5arLpJ5U_LaKT9a-C9Pl5UgyC7tdv1NIjj2IRawq2i7wku8nDTl2x5pJs5ouxl1-99C7CxhERO4AcQENvhg8nMoSkWgtTZ8b3ePCeeNb9ykUcQWcrkhEpe5rG6CEei4tN0LmjD1qRTR9i_ALftBTQmyQDDEmaY_qNwD0e7XFlV7vy1yvps-wMneRkp2cuN3PFGPum81JjMGDcpWA7Kb_pvtxlQHTDgckhQDwWOuisv-guRkkl0LH0FqBWpetdUpnzgiCFkG-3NrDVj7Xm16TgUNapA2g05AO-zg5r3pOq3k8i1JX_9ncEwwKtv9qX9df7_2zRzTCQ9ReHHRcBjALOB8S7_VjsOa2fvGrFl4OzRF3f1S8LOukUyXxVgqaiNr02FnuUei53zejORkJI-iymllD3VPu55q81gILUN2EgaTAYBq3ZWh4aD2ii

Hayden


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hmmm. It sounds like a pitfall trap to detect migration might be the best approach and hit the devils before they start laying. Warrior sounds like it would work well at that stage(adult).

Regards, Mike


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