# What Is Your Biggest Competitor



## VA Haymaker

As you are selling your premium horse quality (and priced) square bales, what is your competitor - round bales of hay or low quality/cheap mixed grass/weeds square bales?

I thought cheap squares, but have been surprised at how many horse owners drop a round bale in a feeder for their horses. Sometimes I see the horses nibbling on the round bales (which are uncovered) standing in a drizzle.


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## slowzuki

We feed the 7 horses at my sisters with round bales outside. The bales are stored inside. Works well but they waste a lot.


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## slowzuki

With only one horse they don't eat fast enough and bale loses its appeal after a day of rain.


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> With only one horse they don't eat fast enough and bale loses its appeal after a day of rain.


Unless you use a hay hut


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> We feed the 7 horses at my sisters with round bales outside. The bales are stored inside. Works well but they waste a lot.


A good feeder can help tremendously. We are raising cattle with my neighbor and he used to feed with a hay ring. After 2 years of that, I found myself cleaning up 15-20 8 foot buckets of wasted hay. After buying a good round bale feeder in 2014, it's been reduced by about 90%. Little hay waste and less time spent cleaning up.
It's a J&L Hay Saver. After 3 years it looks pretty much like new. No feeder will catch all waste, but this one seems to do very well. The "tub" around the bale holder is about as big as it can be but still allow cattle to reach the bale. At $1,300 they're pricey, but if you are wasting 2-3 $50 round bales per year plus saving the cost of cleaning up a huge smelly mess, it's a good compromise.

If you're only feeding 1-2 horses with round bales, I have 2 customers with hay huts and they do a pretty good job at keeping the hay out of rain/snow and sun. At about $800, they are working out well


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## IH 1586

Both in this area, cheap and weedy. I have hay listed as mulch/cattle and its going to horses because of price. The new customers I have gained this winter seem to have issues with poor quality hay. They don't want to buy hay then clean all the golden rod out of the feeders.


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## Vol

Probably my biggest competitor is the mixed grass hay that has been sprayed and put up right....it sells for about 25% cheaper than Orchard, Timothy, and 35% cheaper than the Alfalfa mixes.

The mixed grass hay here usually consists of Fescue, Dallis grass, Crab grass, and wild Bermuda.

All things considered, it(mixed) sells really well with less stand life headaches.

Regards, Mike


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## RuttedField

I feed sheep and not horses, but with round bales. I tried a dozen different feeding ring designs and they all failed. IT SUCKS, but we unroll the bales and put them by hand into tip-out mangers in the barn. I get very, very little waste. It is one of the reasons why I am going with silage.


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## PaCustomBaler

I agree with Mike, same here...although the mix is typically fescue, native orchardgrass, bluegrass, and perennial ryegrass. Just your fine grass hay that grows anywhere and everywhere, that everyone seems to have.


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## rjmoses

Cheap, poor quality hay.

For whatever reason, people tend to buy hay by the bale, rather than by the ton. I've seen 4x4 BR's weighing maybe 600lbs go for $30-35 and 5x5's weighing 1000 lbs and better quality go for $40-$45 at the same sale simply because the price was cheaper on the per bale basis.

I had customer just yesterday ask me about buying my 2nd and 3rd grade hay (cattle hay) for his horses. Just looking to save a few dollars. I said I wouldn't sell it to him because was weedy, low quality, fescue hay.

Horses are grazers--they typically eat for as much as 16 hours a day. For the most part, they like to eat in herds---close, but not too close.

I feed BR's outside in four feeders. Two are covered, two open.

One wood that I built (covered) 8x12. Works fairly well, but the next one would be 10x16 for less wastage and ability to hold two 5x5 bales. Horses seem to prefer to eat out of it. Fixed location means that wasted hay builds up around it over the winter--and that's a pain in the patootie.

Tried a Haychix plastic feeder---JUNK

Tried multiple metal feeders--every one was junk within two years.

Just bought a PVC round feeder (this is talked about in another thread). So far, so good, wastage seems nominal.

The best feeder for wastage I've found so far is a Klene Pipe feeder. I built a roof for it. Very little wastage. Loading a bale is a pain! You have to stand up the sides and open a swinging door, put the bale in, then drop the sides and close the door. Two trips out of the tractor. But, again, VERY little wastage.

This picture isn't mine, but almost identical:

http://www.klenepipe.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/h8_4.jpg

Ralph


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## somedevildawg

The government.....


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## Teslan

My biggest competitors are the ones that claim to have excellent quality hay in small or large squares for lower then average prices, but yet it really isn't when people actually show up. This pushes down the prices for the real quality hays because people think the real quality hay is overpriced then. My other competition is the hay jockeys that also promise the world and don't deliver. This further creates a distrust between hay buyers and hay producers. So when I say my hay might have a few weeds the hay buyers based on their experience think that it is probably all weeds.


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## broadriverhay

I really don't have any competitors. I have people begging for hay and always sell out. I could sell probably twice what I produce. $6.00 small square coastal Bermuda , very clean and properly fertilized and limed. My customers say it is some of the best they have ever bought. 14" X 18" X 36" very tight bales


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## 8350HiTech

RuttedField said:


> I feed sheep and not horses, but with round bales. I tried a dozen different feeding ring designs and they all failed. IT SUCKS, but we unroll the bales and put them by hand into tip-out mangers in the barn. I get very, very little waste. It is one of the reasons why I am going with silage.


J&L makes a sheep/calf feeder.


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## r82230

As Ralph mentions, people buying by the bale.

My competition sell 4x5 and 4x4 bales. I bale a 5x5 have a hard time getting $80 a ton for 1st cutting alfalfa ($50 a bale stored outside, net wrapped). They think they are getting a better deal with a $45 for a 4x5 bale or $35 for a 4x4 bale ($90 a ton and $110 a ton, respectfully, if sold that way).

I would like to sell by the ton, but almost 100% horse people (one sheep and one beef customer), all want to buy is by the bale. And they all want me to bale small squares (I'm looking at fulfilling their wants, with 40-45# bales too). Being they don't want to buy by the ton, my thinking is 'when in Rome, do as the Roman's do". I just have to come to terms with handling more bales (and more dollars ).

I know they will only pay about $5 a bale, so might as well give them, 50 of the 40 pound bales (verses 40 of 50 pounders). As long as they got the cash, who cares.

Larry


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## PaMike

I bought a bale boss from Steinway equipment. It will hold 2 round bales. I bought it slightly used in 2006 for $1100. Only downside is you have to get in them and clean them out every once in a while.. a real pain but they really do save a lot of hay.


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## OhioHay

Biggest competition is the true hobby farmer who isn't in it to profit, but just for fun. May make good quality hay( as in put up right and timely), but sells it cheap because it is just a hobby or a little money for gas.


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## paoutdoorsman

Is a true hobby farmer really producing enough volume to provide any substantial competition?


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## somedevildawg

paoutdoorsman said:


> Is a true hobby farmer really producing enough volume to provide any substantial competition?


Not really, but they usually sell low and "set the market mindset"


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## paoutdoorsman

Yeah, I agree with the market mindset problem created by the 400-500 bale sellers in the classifieds. You have to wonder if they've ever calculated their cost of production.


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## somedevildawg

paoutdoorsman said:


> Yeah, I agree with the market mindset problem created by the 400-500 bale sellers in the classifieds. You have to wonder if they've ever calculated their cost of production.


If they do, the ones around these parts failed Math 101 in like the 5th grade......


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## IH 1586

r82230 said:


> As Ralph mentions, people buying by the bale.
> 
> My competition sell 4x5 and 4x4 bales. I bale a 5x5 have a hard time getting $80 a ton for 1st cutting alfalfa ($50 a bale stored outside, net wrapped). They think they are getting a better deal with a $45 for a 4x5 bale or $35 for a 4x4 bale ($90 a ton and $110 a ton, respectfully, if sold that way).
> 
> I would like to sell by the ton, but almost 100% horse people (one sheep and one beef customer), all want to buy is by the bale. And they all want me to bale small squares (I'm looking at fulfilling their wants, with 40-45# bales too). Being they don't want to buy by the ton, my thinking is 'when in Rome, do as the Roman's do". I just have to come to terms with handling more bales (and more dollars ).
> 
> I know they will only pay about $5 a bale, so might as well give them, 50 of the 40 pound bales (verses 40 of 50 pounders). As long as they got the cash, who cares.
> 
> Larry


I would like to sell by the ton. Then the buyer is getting exactly what they pay for. The hardest part would be convincing customers this is how they should be buying. All they will see is a high number and ignore the ton part.



paoutdoorsman said:


> Is a true hobby farmer really producing enough volume to provide any substantial competition?


One hobby farmer doesn't but 100's of them do. Craiglist and pennswoods were loaded this fall with people selling hay stating they had a couple hundred extra to sell. They tend to price it $.50 - $2.00 under what it should be.


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## Teslan

IH 1586 said:


> I would like to sell by the ton. Then the buyer is getting exactly what they pay for. The hardest part would be convincing customers this is how they should be buying. All they will see is a high number and ignore the ton part.
> 
> One hobby farmer doesn't but 100's of them do. Craiglist and pennswoods were loaded this fall with people selling hay stating they had a couple hundred extra to sell. They tend to price it $.50 - $2.00 under what it should be.


I like the idea of selling by the ton. I don't like the idea of the hassle of having to deal with people getting weighed twice. Plus I think I make more selling by the bale. I have a pretty good idea of my bale weights coming off the baler.


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## IH 1586

That bale tracker would be nice, lots of useful information and don't need to carry a notebook to separate fields, except I would have to upgrade to one of those %$#@ phones. May have to get the other one that was mentioned and keep carrying notebook.

Had wrong window open.


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## swmnhay

Over the yrs I've had the problem of guys shipping it in and not chargeing for frieght.They have the truck and the time in winter so they think they can haul it for nothing.Had a dairy back out on a sale because they got it delivered in from 450 miles away for less then me.He delivered it in for $80 a ton.22 ton load,you do the math!!

He did quite hauling it in after a couple months because ,It didn't work.


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## Teslan

swmnhay said:


> Over the yrs I've had the problem of guys shipping it in and not chargeing for frieght.They have the truck and the time in winter so they think they can haul it for nothing.Had a dairy back out on a sale because they got it delivered in from 450 miles away for less then me.He delivered it in for $80 a ton.22 ton load,you do the math!!
> 
> He did quite hauling it in after a couple months because ,It didn't work.


It doesn't take long to discover delivering for low prices or nothing isn't worth it. Even if you have nothing to do in the winter.


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## hog987

paoutdoorsman said:


> Yeah, I agree with the market mindset problem created by the 400-500 bale sellers in the classifieds. You have to wonder if they've ever calculated their cost of production.


At least here most people dont figure there cost of production. Or if they do they always leave something out. They always figure out twine and fuel. But not always repairs or replacement cost. The big one people always leave out is the price of land. There seems to be the mind set that land is free. Will maybe if your the neighbor that baled all the ditches garbage and all than was trying to sell those bales for $75/bale than the land cost is pretty much free. But other wise land use costs money.


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## broadriverhay

A good customer will not buy from the hobby guy because he can not provide the hay on a regular basis throughout the year. My customers know I will have hay all year and it will be top quality. Also I load most hay with the grapple and they really like that.


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## SCtrailrider

I don't sell any anymore, Mother nature would be my biggest competitor..... and most of the time she wins.....


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## TORCH

My biggest competitors are the other local full time farmers.

Example, I have been selling small squares for horses, to a lady now for years. I'm her only hay supplier she uses. Her other neighbor who has a lot bigger operation. Approached her offering her $2.25 bale hay last season. Good thing it was to late and we had hour deal done for the year. The only thing I could come up with on price was this. They also make big squares and smalls like she uses. Sell a big square at 7 feel long. This would be around 18 smalls. At $40.00 / by 18 = $2.22 a small bale. I was selling her quality alfalfa and grass mixed hay at $3.15 . I don't think I am price gouging she never once complained about my hay. I know I never sell her any questionable hay. I never sell the outside round to any one because the chance of higher moisture. I keep that for myself.

This is one of the big rants full time farmers talk about often. The hobby farmer with other full time jobs. Under selling them because of many different reasons. I will let the cat out of the bag. I fall under the category ( Hobby Farmer). This has happened to me more than ones. The big guys selling hay for less. I always try to sell hay at a fair price. Range from $3.00 to $3.50 depending what field it comes off of. Different amounts of alfalfa. ( This price is off the field not out of barn)

I would like to find out who has the cheaper operating costs? Is it the full time or hobby farmer? Lets look at just the hay making part. Both invest in equipment, have costs, repairs, fuel, twine, land taxes, time, insurance! At least from my prospective, I'm not making much money making hay. Some folks think your making big money selling $3.00 hay. After all said and done I don't agree. Thanks


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## SCtrailrider

I sold the past 2 years to the same 2 people, I was cutting a 30ac field 5 miles up the road. Fair quality grass heavy 4x5 rounds. Trouble this past year was with the land owner, he wanted it to be cut when HE said to cut, because he wanted a nice clean field when he wanted.. First cut would average a mere 2 rolls per ac. Then came dove season and it was too early to spend the time & fuel to cut, we hadn't had any rain so I told him there wasn't anything to cut right then, next thing I know he bush hogged about half of it, said he needed to find the birds, well a shotgun can't shot that far anyway... Later in the fall he called and asked when I was going to cut as he wanted the field looking nice, guess what I did...

I told him to call whoever bush hogged it and have them do it, he said it didn't look as good bush hogged and I told him to but his own equipment or find someone else that wanted to wast there time & wear on equipment so he could have a perty field.. so far no one will touch it because they have been told how he treated me...

I hate it for the folks that depended on me as they were very happy, but I'm not here to make everyone happy at my expense..

The land owner has called and attempted to talk me into it again, I spoke my mind to him, offered to cut it @ 60$ a ac up front and he could do whatever he wanted with the rolls, I doubt I'll ever hear from him again and that's what I had in mind... I can be a ass when someone attempts to take advantage of my good nature...

Chris


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## r82230

TORCH said:


> I would like to find out who has the cheaper operating costs? Is it the full time or hobby farmer? Lets look at just the hay making part. Both invest in equipment, have costs, repairs, fuel, twine, land taxes, time, insurance! At least from my prospective, I'm not making much money making hay. Some folks think your making big money selling $3.00 hay. After all said and done I don't agree. Thanks


Cheaper??? A lot of variables and I have found over the years working with a lot of business people (not just farmers), they don't count everything (their own labor rate comes to mind). Or they don't include some equipment/building (I already own that tractor and depreciated it for my ______ business, so it is free for this operation). Or usually have not pushed the pencil and weight/measure ALL the inputs and ALL the outputs.

Some examples for HT folks (don't shoot me, just being a massager).


When is the last time you actually weight a load of hay and got you ACTUAL bale average?
Better yet if you weight every bale off a field so you know your EXACT tonnage removed? (For a couple of purposes including how much actual fertilizer to put back on).
How many small square bales are you actually getting per ball of twine?
Same for round bales using netting, how much net used? (I can tell you my numbers 182,183, 179, 166,168, I adjusted my baler to get to the 182-183 numbers. At my cost of net wrap, $15-16 per roll is now still in my pocket).
How fuel are you using per acre/hour cutting, raking/tedding. baling, hauling etc.?
Which tractor is the most efficient doing said operation? (This could be an area that being color blind could help some folks).

I have tracked some of my information and am adding more to it each year (a lot I can contribute to HT folks, THANKS). Last year I bought a small load beam scales and started weighting every round bale taken off each field ( before I was weighing a wagon load of 11-13 bales at a time, using a average for each load). Individually weighting I have found sometimes a greater than a 150 pound variance between bales from same field, baled same day. I can also weight the same bale this spring if I desire (and will do, when I am ready to put the scales back outside).

I do not raise corn any more, but I have seen where guys can not just vary the amount of seeds planted, but the amount of inputs (fertilizer, irrigation, etc.) to match the soil capacity. My thoughts are that some of this could apply to hay (alfalfa anyhow).

I also believe there is an economic threshold, whereas the most profit per acre is not necessarily the same as the highest tonnage per acre. I have dialed back my some of my fertilization based on this theory.

One of my sayings is this "it is not always what you make, it what you keep that matters".

I didn't answer your question of who is cheaper, because IDK who's figures I would be using (and their accuracy, more likely too many SWAG method usage for me). I watched people lifting bales at the auction, guessing weight and thought why not have a scales out here available?

But this in MY area, yours could be much different.

Larry


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## TORCH

r82230 Larry

I would say spot on, in your feed back! Many many variables and they are used differently. I just wished sellers would just come together and all sell for the same price in the area. We would all benefit. It seams many people see cheap hay on Craig's list and think that two year old goat hay is what quality alfalfa should go for. I went around and looked at some of this hay. That is for sale in my area. WOW what a difference. I get calls but many never actually come and look at it. They just ask price. The auction that takes place on Fridays is another place I go sometimes just to get a look.

That brings up another question! where is most people getting costumers from?


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## IH 1586

TORCH said:


> r82230 Larry
> 
> I would say spot on, in your feed back! Many many variables and they are used differently. I just wished sellers would just come together and all sell for the same price in the area. We would all benefit. It seams many people see cheap hay on Craig's list and think that two year old goat hay is what quality alfalfa should go for. I went around and looked at some of this hay. That is for sale in my area. WOW what a difference. I get calls but many never actually come and look at it. They just ask price. The auction that takes place on Fridays is another place I go sometimes just to get a look.
> 
> That brings up another question! where is most people getting costumers from?


That is just it. Cheap is what a lot people will look for and not take in to account weight, travel distance, quality. Cheap hay was my best selling hay. It was a nice looking new seeding then was not able to get to it for 2 weeks. I could see enough weeds and oats in it that I would not sell it as good hay. Advertised it as cattle/mulch hay and it been going to horses because its cheap. Should not have priced it so low.

Any new customers I have been getting this winter have been from craigslist, pennswoods, or word of mouth. Have yet to pay for advertising and most of these customers are going to be buying out of the field this summer.


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## Teslan

r82230 said:


> Cheaper??? A lot of variables and I have found over the years working with a lot of business people (not just farmers), they don't count everything (their own labor rate comes to mind). Or they don't include some equipment/building (I already own that tractor and depreciated it for my ______ business, so it is free for this operation). Or usually have not pushed the pencil and weight/measure ALL the inputs and ALL the outputs.
> 
> Some examples for HT folks (don't shoot me, just being a massager).
> 
> 
> When is the last time you actually weight a load of hay and got you ACTUAL bale average?
> Better yet if you weight every bale off a field so you know your EXACT tonnage removed? (For a couple of purposes including how much actual fertilizer to put back on).
> How many small square bales are you actually getting per ball of twine?
> Same for round bales using netting, how much net used? (I can tell you my numbers 182,183, 179, 166,168, I adjusted my baler to get to the 182-183 numbers. At my cost of net wrap, $15-16 per roll is now still in my pocket).
> How fuel are you using per acre/hour cutting, raking/tedding. baling, hauling etc.?
> Which tractor is the most efficient doing said operation? (This could be an area that being color blind could help some folks).
> 
> I have tracked some of my information and am adding more to it each year (a lot I can contribute to HT folks, THANKS). Last year I bought a small load beam scales and started weighting every round bale taken off each field ( before I was weighing a wagon load of 11-13 bales at a time, using a average for each load). Individually weighting I have found sometimes a greater than a 150 pound variance between bales from same field, baled same day. I can also weight the same bale this spring if I desire (and will do, when I am ready to put the scales back outside).
> 
> I do not raise corn any more, but I have seen where guys can not just vary the amount of seeds planted, but the amount of inputs (fertilizer, irrigation, etc.) to match the soil capacity. My thoughts are that some of this could apply to hay (alfalfa anyhow).
> 
> I also believe there is an economic threshold, whereas the most profit per acre is not necessarily the same as the highest tonnage per acre. I have dialed back my some of my fertilization based on this theory.
> 
> One of my sayings is this "it is not always what you make, it what you keep that matters".
> 
> I didn't answer your question of who is cheaper, because IDK who's figures I would be using (and their accuracy, more likely too many SWAG method usage for me). I watched people lifting bales at the auction, guessing weight and thought why not have a scales out here available?
> 
> But this in MY area, yours could be much different.
> 
> Larry


Sometimes though it isn't just a numbers thing though. If going by numbers for my size of operation I shouldn't have the equipment I have. I should almost just hire custom people if one goes with just the numbers. However those custom people will never bale, stack hay the exact way I want to. Quality and quantity will suffer. Plus the anxiety them not showing up when they should. I probably didn't need to buy a brand new tractor last spring. Probably the JD would have been fine for the summer. I probably should have bought a lower hour used one. But the what ifs keep popping into my head. What if the JD had a serious break down right when I needed it most costing thousands (Yes the new one could also, but won't cost anything for 2 seasons) I had bumpy fields. The new tractor was sure better over that then the JD would have been. A low hour used one would have been ok. But no bonus depreciation on taxes because it wasn't new. No warranty or shorter warranty.

I have thought about buying a scale like you mention. Not so much so I know what they weigh coming off the field as I have a scale on my baler. But to weigh a few bales as I take them out of the barn to show customers. On my 3x3 baler it is amazing how often a bale weight on a 3x3 bale can swing 50-100 lbs one way or another. On a little square the difference is probably the same ratio. Just 2-4 pound difference on a 55 pound bale doesn't seem to be that big compared to a 40-50 lb difference on an 800 lb bale. Over all it's the same difference.

Another thing to consider if you sell by the ton. At least here. Bales stored inside lose some weight over a few months from just drying out more. So consider how long you hold on to hay before selling if by the ton.

Also after time you can see how people in your area buy hay. I like to be basically sold out by December. From July to December one can get the best prices for hay here. After that to clear out your hay barns by May you gradually have to start lowering the price. The best customers I find are the ones that buy their whole year supply at one or two times in larger lots. Those are the ones I like best. Starting a tractor in February to load a person with 2 bales isn't that efficient. I don't like holding onto hay for customers until March or whatever. It will end up getting in the way at some point or that customer will sell some animals and not need the hay. I only have one person I save hay for all winter.


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## r82230

Teslan said:


> Sometimes though it isn't just a numbers thing though.


Tes, I agree, I too have equipment that is more for 'my convenience' than what will pencil out on paper. BUT I still need to know what my cost of production is per bale. Which in my case I would have to substitute the cost of the equipment that I could (should) be using.

I basically have 'over sized' equipment for the amount of hay I do, because of my off farm job putting time constraints on me. I can (what I call) blow out of the office for 2-4 hours at a time, jump into my tractor still wearing my street clothes often. I found the with older equipment, I ruined more street clothes than the wife appreciated and I could not get as much done in a timely manner.

With a lot of thanks to HT folks (I miss HayWilson and his wisdom), I have more than tripled my production from the same acreage in the last 8-10 years (I have mentioned I lurked around here for many years). With this increase in production, brought other problems (became a seller of hay again and needing more time to haul/bale the crop). So my equipment got upgraded or larger for my situation. So my penciling is a little different than some.

BUT if you know YOUR own information down to YOUR cost inputs/outputs I believe you can make much better decisions for your operation in your area. While adding your convenience time IF you desire.

On my 'wish list' is a tractor with a variable speed tranny, do I need it NO, but it may help save my knee for a little while longer. It is hard to put a price on that when penciling.

Larry


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## 8350HiTech

broadriverhay said:


> A good customer will not buy from the hobby guy because he can not provide the hay on a regular basis throughout the year. My customers know I will have hay all year and it will be top quality. Also I load most hay with the grapple and they really like that.


I actually encourage my best customer to buy some hobby hay in the summer. If someone is crazy enough to sell her decent hay at below market cost, I can't argue with it. I will not be upset. I will also sell her hay again when that supply has been exhausted. If she can save some money somewhere, it's better for her business and therefore it's better for mine. Even if that means I have extra premium hay in the barn, that's just more hay to sell to other customers who are more fickle and therefore I charge them more.


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## Randy Litton

broadriverhay said:


> I really don't have any competitors. I have people begging for hay and always sell out. I could sell probably twice what I produce. $6.00 small square coastal Bermuda , very clean and properly fertilized and limed. My customers say it is some of the best they have ever bought. 14" X 18" X 36" very tight bales


How long have you been selling Bermuda? The reason I ask, I have fields that have been in production for 6 years. Vaughans #1 Bermuda.


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## Randy Litton

broadriverhay said:


> A good customer will not buy from the hobby guy because he can not provide the hay on a regular basis throughout the year. My customers know I will have hay all year and it will be top quality. Also I load most hay with the grapple and they really like that.


It is difficult to start a quality hay operation. For my money it is worth it.


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## skyrydr2

All the other farmer want-a-be's around me that don't even own a dog!
I don't pay for much if any hay fields as they are all folks that have large fields that they want maintained. 
We do a very good job on them and get the hay for next to nothing. And a few paying customers that we just drop in the field, all small squares. The stuff we put up usually sells for $6 a bale first cut and $7 for second if I have any extra as I feed my cattle this first. They waste first cut badly but clean up 2nd cut like its candy.


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## GNA_farm

As a small timer I actually see equal competition from larger established producers and hobby farmers. I know quite a few of the more established local producers around me and are friends with them, in the last couple years they have actually sent quite a few of their customers to me as they ran ran out of hay. They have established customers for all of their hay and sell it much cheaper than I do, but they also have all their hay sold by October and don't have to deal with it through a Wisconsin winter. One of our buddies who has been selling hay in the area for 30+ years has actually started sending his pickier customers my way instead of dealing with them himself as he has said that my quality is consistently higher than his, and I charge for it (my price per 4x5 BR is oftentimes 1.5-2x what he sells for).

Since this is side action I feel less of a need to move the product early/cheap as I know February in Wisconsin will get cold and many large operations are either out of hay by then or not willing to deliver a 10 bale load to farmer John up the road or 2 bales to the lady with 3 horses. I can set my own schedule at that point, as well as charge a premium due to supply and demand without taking advantage as I know what my product is worth.

I'm not sure where the cutoff for hobby farmer is, I work full time but also put up 130 acres of hay on the side. To me, I know what my time is worth with my kids, family, and my primary job, if I can't make money selling hay I wouldn't bother doing it. I don't really understand the people that will burn hundreds of gallons of diesel and countless hours to not make any money doing it, large or small time operations either one...


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## endrow

When I think in that direction my biggest competitor and problem is the order buyer and jockey. Especially the hay order buyer bunch of those guys go to the auction and agreed not to bid against each other and they are driving down auction prices dramatically. And when your local buyers hear what option prices are why would they pay more they can just call him on the phone and for three bucks a ton he will buy them whatever they want. At one time hay order buyers were the lifeblood of a hay auction. They had respect for someone who would bring a high-quality product to the auction and they would take care of them. Now it's turning into just like the cattle auctions there's a cartel of people when they said they're probably to auction it will always do the money and your average run-of-the-mill guy just get screwed


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## swmnhay

endrow said:


> When I think in that direction my biggest competitor and problem is the order buyer and jockey. Especially the hay order buyer bunch of those guys go to the auction and agreed not to bid against each other and they are driving down auction prices dramatically. And when your local buyers hear what option prices are why would they pay more they can just call him on the phone and for three bucks a ton he will buy them whatever they want. At one time hay order buyers were the lifeblood of a hay auction. They had respect for someone who would bring a high-quality product to the auction and they would take care of them. Now it's turning into just like the cattle auctions there's a cartel of people when they said they're probably to auction it will always do the money and your average run-of-the-mill guy just get screwed


Wait until the auction co gets their own trucks and brings hay in from out of the area that is cheaper.The auction co is also the order buyer here.


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## skyrydr2

Tons of competition around here! 
But only a select few that actually has decent hay. Some guys try to flood the market with cheap hay and folks buy it only to complain when they come get more from me. 
All the fields I cut are folks that asked me to cut them because they saw what the fields looked like when we were done.
We respect the land and owners requests and take care of them as best we can. 
Unlike a few of our competitors that hack the dickens out of the fields at all hours amd make everyone mad..


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## Vol

I used to think it would be great to have a hay auction here......but, I am glad we don't with the way it sounds like up North. Our cattle auctions probably are about like yours.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg

Auctions have lost their luster to me, too many unscupulous folks that own/operate them.....not all, but many of them.


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## swmnhay

I used to take 2-3 loads per week all winter to auctions.Worked good for a few yrs but went to shit.Plus the fact you loose a whole day for 1 load of hay by time you load,weigh,wait for sale to get over and then deliver it after the sale.


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