# Your advice on my start up plans



## Maple Guy

Hello all, I am new to the site and very impressed with all the knowledge!! I farmed with my dad in southeastern MN till I was 22 and he decided to quit. It was in the late 80's and with the farm economy not being good I chose to go into cabinetry for the last 25 years and self employed. My wife and I own a 120 acre farm about 45 minutes from where we live, there is 45 acres of CRP which is to come out in a few years. What I would like to do is get back into farming slowly with hay. I have a 80 hp tractor for logging purposes. My thoughts are small squares with some form of bale accumulator. I neighbors approx. get 3 to 4 tons but I don't think they push fertilizers too hard though. Good quality alfalfa goes for $200 to $300 plus there is a strong horse demand in our area. One of my concerns is the old adage that hay shouldn't be used as a cash crop because its too hard on the land? I know it may be best the first year put it corn which I may have it customed farmed, rent it, or share crop the corn. My cabinetry business is quite profitable so I am not worried about getting equipment for the hay business, I am just getting to the age where I would enjoy to diversify my time and enjoy it while still building equity. Also, my youngest son is 10 and seems to be the type that may be interested in farming so I keep thinking of where this business may grow to. I know there is a lot to this goal but we all have started out in the beginning so I do believe its obtainable, start with the 45 acres and grow slowly. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated...Thanks


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## Vol

Sounds like a good approach and I think you are looking at it intelligently. Hay is not hard on the land...you may have to add amendments of sort depending on what type of forage you grow, but that is true with most crops. Hay is a great cash crop here...we have several experienced folks right in your area and they will be able to give you advice in detail. I am glad you are considering your son in your exploitations and I am happy for you to be able to share something like ag together.

Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose

Welcome to Hay talk. Sounds like you have some good initial thoughts. The more you read the more you learn.

What works great in one place may work poorly in another. Whether that be TX v Florida or even HERE (about an hour N of MPLS) v there. But the more you know the better off you are. It looks much easier from the road. Definitely not for everyone but very rewarding (even if not always so much financially) for many.

Also the tax benefits on both the land (property tax) as well as at deductions help out.


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## swmnhay

I about spit out my pop when I read that alfalfa is hard on the land. It might take some P&K but corn takes N alsnce established near 0 erosion.No better deep tillage then alfalfa roots.

If you could get 250 a ton every yr you would also put other crops to shame,no more $7 corn. 

You should easily get 5 ton acre of alfalfa or mixed hay.Soil test and fertilize.

Check out your market before you seed.Do they want straight alfalfa,alf/grass or grass?The straight alfalfa may be better for some small dairies in that area that want small sqrs,Amish perhaps?

Back up plan for rained on hay?Rd bale it?Quite a few stock cows in that area.

The farm have a lot of trees that stop the wind and maybe take longer to dry?Maybe a tedder in your equipment lineup.

So what town are you near?I've been to Lanesboro salebarn a few times.Stayed in Rushford and snowmobiled out of there in Caledonia,Houston,LeCresent areas.Pretty country and a lot different then here.Bluffs etc.


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## somedevildawg

Welcome to haytalk maple guy.....sounds like a great plan to me!


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## hog987

So if your just starting off the first year or two your not going to make very much or any. But it will be a big learning curve.

Like mentioned find out what kind of hay sells best in your area. But don't put all your eggs in one basket. For example if dairy hay sells best have to have a place to sell the hay that does not grade dairy. Or another option is to have livestock to feed it too.

Have you ever ran any haying equipment before. That is also a learning curve to no how to set it up and run it. Your smart to start off small and learn and expand from there.


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## Maple Guy

I'm down in the Rushford area. We are fairly fortune in that area because there is both a fair amount of dairy and beef farms so there seems to be a great demand for all types also alot of horse people. I had farmed with my dad when I was younger so I have experience, just a little rusty..lol. I'm not saying I wouldn't have problems along the way with equipment but Im not a full fledge newbie either. I've just have had alot of people tell me you shouldn't sell hay of your land without putting it through your own animals and putting the manure back on. It's just refreshing to hear you guys say you can do it with the right management. What are some good crop rotation schedules to try to keep it in hay as much as possible?


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## Vol

Regular soil testing is your best friend. Most grasses do not have to be put on a rotational schedule. Rotate alfalfa out when the stand begins to play out....and as it weakens it can be extended very nicely by adding a desirable grass for your area(horse customers usually). Corn goes in nicely after alfalfa for a great rotation.

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South

Welcome to Hay Talk. You have done some homework which is always beneficial. The more any of us understand farming and nutrients the better Stewart's of the land we will be.

Any time we remove a crop from the land we are also removing nature's replacement nutrients. This goes for any crop grown. Land in production, land with a goal, will always be better ground because we pay attention to the health of the soil and return what that soil needs.

There is a lot of folklore and voodoo out there. Much is proclaimed by those who have never raised a crop of any sort.

We all continue to grow and learn from the solid ongoing research avaliable. Mostly research done on the university level where no agenda is to be met.

If you have a good Extension Agent he will be a blessing.

It is great that you have some farming background and are going in with both eyes open. Hay can become addictive. Consider yourself forewarned.


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## swmnhay

Maple Guy said:


> I'm down in the Rushford area. We are fairly fortune in that area because there is both a fair amount of dairy and beef farms so there seems to be a great demand for all types also alot of horse people. I had farmed with my dad when I was younger so I have experience, just a little rusty..lol. I'm not saying I wouldn't have problems along the way with equipment but Im not a full fledge newbie either. I've just have had alot of people tell me you shouldn't sell hay of your land without putting it through your own animals and putting the manure back on. It's just refreshing to hear you guys say you can do it with the right management. What are some good crop rotation schedules to try to keep it in hay as much as possible?


A good rotaion with alfalfa or alfalfa/grass that I like is 4-5 yrs alf,1 yr corn(utilizes the N from alf)1 yr beans and back to alf.Bean ground gives me a nicer seedbed to seed into.

Corn and soybeans that are hauled to town and sold take nutrients off the soil also.

When we were there riding trails around there we came across a farm that had a herd of Zebras.


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## stack em up

I have some relatives in Rushford. They lost their house when the river flooded a few years back. Anyway, welcome to Haytalk! I think the more research you do, you'll find the more beneficial alfalfa/hay is for the ground than corn/soybeans. Alfalfa is great for building organic matter because OM is made
up of 80% roots.


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## barnrope

You are in some pretty country over there!!!  Lots of livestock that eats lots of hay too!


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## Maple Guy

What are your thoughts of the best crop to start out with after the CRP is done? Corn?


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## Maple Guy

Thanks guys.... I truly appreciate your advice....Yes, we have some pretty nice country down here by Rushford. At least the rolling terrain keeps from killing off alfalfa from standing water! swmnhay, the zebras are news to me...  I've done some research on expenses but just want to make sure it is as thorough as what real life expenses are. My goal isn't to pull income off of the venture but to build equity and try to keep building that business for myself in future years and possibly my son. If anyone of you think I'm nuts...please tell me!!


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## Lewis Ranch

If your looking to just build equity and not make any money it sounds like a heck of a plan, seems to me any money I make just gets spent anyway.


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## swmnhay

Maple Guy said:


> Thanks guys.... I truly appreciate your advice....Yes, we have some pretty nice country down here by Rushford. At least the rolling terrain keeps from killing off alfalfa from standing water! swmnhay, the zebras are news to me...  I've done some research on expenses but just want to make sure it is as thorough as what real life expenses are. My goal isn't to pull income off of the venture but to build equity and try to keep building that business for myself in future years and possibly my son. If anyone of you think I'm nuts...please tell me!!


It was atleast 15 yrs ago so they may not be there anymore.We did cover a pretty good sized area riding so not sure where we ran across them.But it was quite a surprise to see Zebra in SE MN,there was maybe 10 of them.
Pretty common to put beans in CRP ground here.Use roundup beans and clean up the grasses.Could be wire worm,cutworm etc so insecticide on corn for sure.

Everyone else might think you are nuts.My banker did,some friends and neighbors did but who cares.

Steady as she goes.Many I have seen fail in hay business get out on a price dip,they seed when there is a high price.Stick it out threw price cycles and you will do OK.


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## Maple Guy

I appreciate your insight swmnhay...One of my problems I've had trouble deciding on is what is the best equipment to invest into and how new...don't want break downs..but also don't want to start out in deep debt either. ..I bet you were surprised to see those zebras! You still get down here snowmobiling anymore?


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## swmnhay

Maple Guy said:


> I appreciate your insight swmnhay...One of my problems I've had trouble deciding on is what is the best equipment to invest into and how new...don't want break downs..but also don't want to start out in deep debt either. ..I bet you were surprised to see those zebras! You still get down here snowmobiling anymore?


Only rode there 1 time.They had a lot of snow there and not much here.We mostly ride in Black Hills or West Yellowstone area.


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## barnrope

We usually try to take a couple day sled trip most winters. We run along either side of the state line toward the east and then north around Harmony and Caledonia and up through the Lanesboro and Rushford area toward Red Wing or Lake City. One time we rode across the frozen Mississippi at Lake Pepin and into Wisconsin to spend the night. That is all some nice country.


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## Maple Guy

Glad you like the area for snowmobiling barnrope!! We've been lucky the last few years when it comes to snowmobiling conditions


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## Maple Guy

I have had an easy time finding realistic numbers for the business plan but have had trouble finding realistic numbers for fertilizer expenses on the average. I know the first years out of CRP may be higher but just any averages are appreciated... Thanks!


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## Bgriffin856

I like your idea very smart working for equity. It should work. Even with hay crop rotation is key to maintaining yeilds, quality and profits. We always keep a good diversity of forage crops and rotation. Its especially important when you have a herd to feed


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## swmnhay

Maple Guy said:


> I have had an easy time finding realistic numbers for the business plan but have had trouble finding realistic numbers for fertilizer expenses on the average. I know the first years out of CRP may be higher but just any averages are appreciated... Thanks!


You should soil test to know what you need for fertilizer and also to see if you need lime.The CRP geound shouldn't have got any lower over the yrs because nothing was taken off for a crop those yrs.So it should be about the same as it was before it was put into CRP.Typically poorer ground was put into the CRP program.

Without a test I would spread 300 lbs of 9-23-30
or 200 lbs twice.Once in fall and once after 1st cutting.

IMO crop removal rates for alf that are published are higher then the actual.It maybe the deep alfalfa roots are getting more out of the soil deeper but my soil tests do not go down putting on 300-400 lbs an acre.According to crop removal recommendations I should be putting on 600-800 lbs per acre of 9-23-30


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## Maple Guy

I found finbin last night on the internet....what a lifesaver for finding some accurate expense figures!!!


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