# New guy looking for advice



## Lon

Hey All So here's another new guy looking for some advice. Been lurking around the forum here for a couple of months, and there seems to be some pretty knowledgeable guys here, so I'd like to bounce some stuff off y'all and see what you think. 
First a little background I had a small 18 hp tractor and 4' bush hog I used to cut the firing lanes around my deer stand. I saw a 10 acre field in town for sale one day with grass about waist high so I called the owner and asked if he wanted it bush hogged. Long story short, I got that job and a couple more properties the guy owns.

That was 5 years ago and over the past 5 years I've picked up several more properties, a 45hp tractor with a loader, and an older model 40hp tractor. I was thinking that with the equipment I already have, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to start doing some small square bale custom work. This would not be my sole source of income, it would be more about making some extra cash for me and some gas money for my teenage son. My regular job I work for a month and then have a month off, and they are very flexible about when I can take off.

So I'm thinking about a 5' drum mower, a rake, and a new holland 273 baler and I would be all set to take on about 50 acres of hay Thinking about charging $1.50 a bale to leave it in the field or buy a grapple and charge $2.50 a bale to stack it in the barn Was guessing about 60 bales per acre here in central Louisiana

Or plan B Take the money I would invest in equipment, go to the craps table split it in half and put place bets on 6 & 8 Anybody know of anybody looking for somebody to do something like this ? Please feel free to shoot this idea full of holes or make suggestions to improve it

Thanks


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## somedevildawg

Depends on the market there, around here, if you're going to be doing squares you need to have quality grass to work with, most that have quality grass also have square balers and accumulators. But it all depends on your market, that's where some research in your market would pay dividends...dubltrubl on here is from your parts, perhaps you can IM him and ask about the market conditions. You may find a better market for rolling hay, much less labor required, for squares you need storage and lots of it, rounds can sit outside. 
Really need to look at the total investment, tedder, rake, disc mower (not drum) baler and a FEL on a tractor. You'll most likely be cutting Baha'i and Bermuda grass right, if they are serious about their haymaking, you'll be under some time constraints as well......

If it were me, I prolly go to Vegas, prolly have more luck there......hth


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## Lon

Thanks for the reply devildawg 
I've got an FEL on my 45 hp tractor, and you're right most of the stuff around here is Bahia. I was thinking the drum mower and square baler because of the lower hp requirements. Any idea if I could run a disc mower and round baler on a 40 or 45 hp tractor ? Also wasn't sure about the tedder . . . is that a must have in Louisiana ? I've never cut hay before so all I have to go by is what I've read. Some articles say tedding is a must and others say it's a waste of time and fuel . . . guess it depends on who you ask or where you're at. 
As far as local research, I really don't know anybody locally just kinda been watching craigslist to see if anything comes up and lurking around forums reading what people have to say. I did notice a couple of guys on here from louisiana and thought they might chime in

Working the graveyard shift with nothing better to do than read forums and watch youtube videos about haying so I should be a professional by the time I get off lol


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## ontario hay man

You could definitely run a 9 foot haybine. Something like a nh 488. You eould be hard pressed to run a round baler with 40 hp unless it is a 4x4 baler. Also Im not a fan of the 273. Maybe they are great but I had 2 that were junk. I would go with a jd 24t or 336. Hope that helps.


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## dubltrubl

Lon,

I'll take a stab at this based on the info you've given so far. The equipment you have and are considering will be adequate to make squares. However, without a good bit of extra help, you'll have difficulty getting it picked up unless you take only 5-10 acre patches at a time and it still aint gonna be a cakewalk. If you can get a crew to help pick up, you're set, if not, consider some additional equipment. I figure what I've spent in an accumulator and grapple for me is well worth the money. Not only in labor cost, but wear and tear on me, and insurance against losses from harvested hay getting rained on simply from lack of help getting it stored properly. Given your previously mentioned harvest expectations, you'll need about a 40' X 60' barn to store your hay. I much prefer selling straight out of the field for various reasons, but have found that only about half of those that promise to pick up hay in the field ever show up, except late in the season. Like my old cousin used to say, "If you're doing hay, build enough barn! Having hay in the barn properly stored is like money in the bank."

Regarding a tedder, if you're using a drum mower, it's almost required to get good drying/curing unless you have about 5 days of dry sunshiny weather in Louisiana. How many times do you see that during the year in your parts and at the same time have time off to be in the field? If your answer is the same as mine, get a tedder. A disc mower won't leave as much of a windrow behind the mower as a drum cutter, so a tedder is not as important. I've seen times even in good weather that the grass would almost never dry underneath the windrow made by a drum cutter even with a lot of sun and dry ground. Depends on the "juicyness" (for lack of a better word) of the crop. I use a drum cutter also, and run a tedder nearly every time I cut, unless the crop is very very short.

Regarding hay price and quality. If you can afford to sell squares after inputs and labor and expenses at the prices you're quoting, you're making a very low quality hay or you're losing a LOT of money. If you aren't worried about losing money then go for it. If it's very low quality hay, all I can say is good luck trying to sell it. I can drive around my parish (Jefferson Davis) right now and point out at least 4 barns with anywhere from 3-5 thousand bales of low quality square bales in them that will probably have at least half the same amount in them at the end of this winter. I've been sold out since the end of October, and all of my colleges in the same market have been too. Good to high quality square bales sell, no matter what. By the time I get my grass baled and on the ground, I have about $2.75 in a bale not counting my time and labor. By the time it's in the barn, I have about $3. I generally sell at $4.50/bale in the field, and at least $5 in the barn. And I'm probably the best value of all of my nearest 3 competitors, especially since I load my cutomers hay if I'm home. For various reasons, I can, at this point, afford to be. #1, my stuff is all payed for, #2 I'm smaller and more flexible, #3 I really don't need to hire labor if I don't want to and rarely do. Please consider the market you're after, and what it will take to satisfy it before setting a value on you're crop. If you're fortunate enough to move all of your squares to the construction/mulch hay market, then you're in an enviable position. I suspect you're not too far from Forest Hills, in which case, the mulch hay market may be good for you. I also understand they sometime like a lot of pine straw bales near there, in which case, you're still in a good area, Just some things to think about.

I'va rambled enough for this post, but by all means, ask more questions, and if you like, feel free to get in touch and I'll be glad to help if I can.

Regards,

Steve


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## Lon

Thank's Ontario,
I have read good things about the jd balers. As far as the haybine goes I could be way off base but it's my understanding that they are basically a sickle bar with a conditioner attached to them ? Will a haybine cut as fast as a drum or disc mower ? Again I am completely new to this . . . I have a couple of tractors,a big flat bed goose neck trailer, a truck to haul it all around with, and a strong work ethic 
Thanks for the patients in dealing with my ignorance


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## somedevildawg

Prolly want to skip the haybine as the fire ants will make you quit........


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## Lon

Hey Steve, 
Thanks for all the helpful info. What I really had in mind was cutting other people's hay and stacking it in their barns or leaving it in their fields, and yes I have been eyeballing the WR long grappleator. In your experience would a property owner be willing to pay those rates to have their own hay cut and baled or possibly a hay cutter be willing to sub out a field for those prices and still be able to make some money selling it to his customer base (since I have no customer base) ?

BTW I live in Alexandria but I do have some property in Woodworth right down the road from forest hill

Again thanks for all the helpful advice


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## ontario hay man

Steve. You made very good points. If I read the other post right I think he is talking about just custom haying for other people. If not the price he wants for hay wouldnt buy a bale of crap here.


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## ontario hay man

somedevildawg said:


> Prolly want to skip the haybine as the fire ants will make you quit........


Thats what I use. I never heard of fire ants. Whats the deal with them?


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## ontario hay man

Hey lon do you know jimmie deramus. Had to ask I watch that show quite a bit lol.


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## Lon

Lol Yep I have brought some gold coins from Jimmy before, I pass by that shop almost every day when I'm home, but refuse to go in there if the cameras are outside. I'm originally from the Monroe area and was in the West Monroe national guard unit for several years which was almost right next door to the duck commander / duck dynasty shop, never met those guys though


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## ontario hay man

As long as your not the guy they refer to as joker lol.  thats pretty cool.


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## dubltrubl

Lon,

Sorry, I missed the part about custom baling. I really don't know what the appropriate charges would be for custom square baling. I don't do custom work, and most around here only do rounds as custom work. I know the customary way of doing it here is on shares. The landowner raises it and bears all of those expenses, and the baler cuts, rakes, and bales it and bears those expenses. They usually share 50/50. Pick-up labor and expenses are negotiated based on each ones intentions and uses. I can say this about this arraingment, if you're raising top quality bermuda, the landowner will never pay his expenses if he intends to sell all of his hay. I recently spoke to a close friend of mine that works this arraingment on his land in a neighboring parish and he manages his bermuda to feed his horses in winter. By the time he got it cut, baled and stored for the winter, (4 X6 bales by the way) his share cost him nearly $80/bale. He could never have sold it for that price in this area in order to re-coup his expenses. Next year he plans on just buying his hay.

Regarding the grapilator, they're pretty good if you're working on a tight budget and a small operation. Like all things though that do more than one thing, they aren't the best for each operation. In my humble opinion, for about the same money as a new one, you can search and find a used accumulator and grapple and you'll spend less time running all over the field picking up single bales when it's time to get things off of the field.

ontario hay man,

Regarding the 273, no doubt your experiences were bad, but mine have been pretty good. Then again I only do bermuda grass and that may be the difference. I will say this though, regardless of brand, learn to work on your own square baler. It's very hard to find a dealership mechanic that knows squat about a square baler these days, unless it's a newer inline and even that is luck of the draw on dealerships. I have 2 273's and have been through both of 'em from a**hole to appetite at some point or another and I doubt the local dealership mechanics could pount out a tucker finger to save their lives.


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## ontario hay man

Ya I know all brands are like that. I have a new nh 5070. I got the luck of the dealers I guess. My dealer has a small sq baler specialist. I call him tell him what the part looks like if I dont know the name and he orders it right every time.


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## ontario hay man

When you guys say parish is that like what we call counties?


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## Lon

Steve ,
Would you be interested in taking on an apprentice this summer ? Maybe I could bring the equipment I have down to your neck of the woods and hook it up to some of your equipment and with your guidance maybe I could see if making hay would be something I really wanted to do . . . I'd work cheap . . . Cover the expenses (fuel cost) of my equip and a little labor cost and you could get some hay baled without doing much on your part except telling me what to do ?
Tractor burns about a gallon of diesel fuel per hour bush hogging (don't know what it would burn making hay) and it cost about .40 a mile in diesel fuel for my truck to haul both tractors


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## Lon

Yep Louisiana is the only state that has parishes instead of counties . . . Same thing though


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## Mike120

I pretty much agree with pretty much that's been said up to this point. Just a couple of observations....My feeling is that a Grappleator might be fine on a skid/track steer but you're going to be putting a lot of side-loading on your FEL running around the field trying to pick up bales with a tractor. Bale pickup is very fast with my Hoelscher and I spend very little time in the field. You'll also need a trailer to put the bales on to take them in. Unless the fields are like glass, you'll drop a lot of bales between the field and the barn. I'm not sure I'd want to use that grappleator for unloading and stacking. Whatever grapple you use, you'll need a third remote to operate the grapple teeth.

Bahia eats blades on a mower and it chokes sickle mowers if you happen to go into a field that had previously been shredded. With a disc mower I can cut three times the amount of Bermuda as I can with Bahia. Get something with cheap, easy-to-change blades, you'll be doing it often. On the good side, Bahia dries in half the time of Bermuda, but it browns out and makes ugly square bales. It's fine to feed, but hard to sell to horse owners who think everything needs to be green, pretty smelling Coastal. With heavy crops you'll likely need a tedder as it can save you a couple of days. Make sure your clients fertilize, otherwise you'll be screwed working on a per bale basis. Good luck!


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## dubltrubl

Lon said:


> Steve ,
> Would you be interested in taking on an apprentice this summer ? Maybe I could bring the equipment I have down to your neck of the woods and hook it up to some of your equipment and with your guidance maybe I could see if making hay would be something I really wanted to do . . . I'd work cheap . . . Cover the expenses (fuel cost) of my equip and a little labor cost and you could get some hay baled without doing much on your part except telling me what to do ?
> Tractor burns about a gallon of diesel fuel per hour bush hogging (don't know what it would burn making hay) and it cost about .40 a mile in diesel fuel for my truck to haul both tractors


Lon,

I'd be happy to help with that. No need to haul equipment down here though, unless you just want to try yours out. We'd just have to work out a timeline due to my work schedule, but it's doable. I absolutely love making hay, especially the growing side of it. I enjoy it so much that I talk about too much and quite frankly, the wife gets bored with stuff,,,. It would be kinda cool having someone around that likes the same thing. PM me sometime and I'll pass along contact info for later use.

Regards,

Steve


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## ontario hay man

Ya my wife gets sick of my blabbering to. She hates winter because we have 2 feet of snow and im itching for it to melt so I can start haying again lol.


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## Lon

Lol
It's a whole club of like minded individuals . . . My wife picked up my computer the other day and opened the search history then rolled her eyes and ask . . . This is REALLY what you look at when your all alone ? Antique farmall tractors and hay baling videos on youtube ? 
As long as she doesn't find my harbor freight sale paper or my nortnern tool catalog I'll be alright lol

Steve I'm offshore right now and won't be off till Feb 12 but I'll figure out this PM thing before then

Again guys thanks for all the help


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## somedevildawg

ontario hay man said:


> Thats what I use. I never heard of fire ants. Whats the deal with them?


Search fire ants, youll see.....they are a pita


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## Tim/South

somedevildawg said:


> Search fire ants, youll see.....they are a pita


Fire ants need to become more cold tolerant and invade D.C. Then we will find a cure to these unwelcome imports.

I still have the old NH 479. Ant hill would plug the cutter bar. I only got off the tractor one time to remove the clump. Once was enough. I learned to leave the cutter down and back up. Then you would hear a "clunk" as the mound passed through the rollers.

Now I just smile when the disc mower zips through them.


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## ontario hay man

I dont know if we got those critters here. Ive seen some that look like they do but never got bit by them. Can you spray them? Or how do you get rid of them?


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## somedevildawg

ontario hay man said:


> I dont know if we got those critters here. Ive seen some that look like they do but never got bit by them. Can you spray them? Or how do you get rid of them?


If you could figure out a way you'd make millions.....and no you don't have any up there....there an interstate... 40, maybe that runs east-west across America, it the dividing line so to speak. They can't tolerate cold temps.....they like it hot, and when they sting, you will know it.....ain't gonna get out and unplug that cutter bar too often.....


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## Vol

somedevildawg said:


> ...there an interstate... 40, maybe that runs east-west across America, it the dividing line so to speak. They can't tolerate cold temps.....they like it hot, and when they sting, you will know it.


I live eight miles South of interstate 40 and that is just about right....we have far aints, as the locals call em. The county North of me and West of me do not have far aints.....to the East is the GSMNP and they don't like it there either.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline

I live two miles north of interstate 40 and we don't have fire ants....yet. I hear the county to the southeast of me has them but I don't think in such abundance like I saw in South Georgia.


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## Guest

Why not bale the fields you bush hog? Tell them youll keep lot cleaned in exchange for the hay. Even if its not tye best quality it would be free. It would help justify equipment to do custom baling.


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## FarmerCline

bbos said:


> Why not bale the fields you bush hog? Tell them youll keep lot cleaned in exchange for the hay. Even if its not tye best quality it would be free. It would help justify equipment to do custom baling.


 The problem with this is if it's not clean good quality hay it might be hard to sell in a square bale and there is no point of making inferior quality hay to sell at a break even price. You may make more money to just keep bush hogging them unless it is a clean stand of grass already growing there.


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## ontario hay man

Ya all my lower quality stuff gets rolled up. Its not worth the effort when nobody wants it.


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## somedevildawg

If its Baha'i........ don't even waste ur time square baling......possibly could sell it for ditch hay however......not sure, seems like Baha'i, with its seeds attached would be excellent for erosion control....


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## Lon

bbos said:


> Why not bale the fields you bush hog? Tell them youll keep lot cleaned in exchange for the hay. Even if its not tye best quality it would be free. It would help justify equipment to do custom baling.


I do have a couple of lots that I'm considering turning into hay fields, but it's not good enough grass to do that. There are several people around here that do square bale bahia and get $5 a bale for it.

And I have heard of people baling stuff they have cut with a bush hog, I believe the general consensus is it's not really the right way to do it, so I think I still need to look at getting a mower. 
Really the biggest thing I bush hog though is 10 acres. Most of my stuff is 2 or 3 acre vacant lots in town owned by people who just want to keep the city code enforcement guys off their backs. As long as they are getting a bill from me every month instead of a fine from the city they are happy. Maybe after I learn a little more about how to grow some good quality stuff I'll talk to the guy who owns the 10 acres about making a hay field. He's a really easy guy to work for and would probably offer to pay to have the few trees on the lot removed to make it easier . . . Only problem is that lot is for sale and I would hate to see it sell right after I put the money in it to grow some good hay . . . But it has been for sale for about 10 years now


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## Guest

Lon said:


> I do have a couple of lots that I'm considering turning into hay fields, but it's not good enough grass to do that. There are several people around here that do square bale bahia and get $5 a bale for it.
> And I have heard of people baling stuff they have cut with a bush hog, I believe the general consensus is it's not really the right way to do it, so I think I still need to look at getting a mower.
> Really the biggest thing I bush hog though is 10 acres. Most of my stuff is 2 or 3 acre vacant lots in town owned by people who just want to keep the city code enforcement guys off their backs. As long as they are getting a bill from me every month instead of a fine from the city they are happy. Maybe after I learn a little more about how to grow some good quality stuff I'll talk to the guy who owns the 10 acres about making a hay field. He's a really easy guy to work for and would probably offer to pay to have the few trees on the lot removed to make it easier . . . Only problem is that lot is for sale and I would hate to see it sell right after I put the money in it to grow some good hay . . . But it has been for sale for about 10 years now


I do a large field on the edge of town by just keeping it clean for a guy. Its just simple switch grass but its clean and weed free and is large field so its worth doing. Plus i have the balers the stack wagon to do it so for me its a ''no brainer''. Hay is high dollar right now and land is very hard to come by. Especially in this area. I dont think its a bad idea to clean the lots up to raise a better hay crop. Kinda takin a chance if he sells his lot but isnt that exactly what farming is? Taking chances. Lol But only you know whats best... maybe youd make way more money just bush hogging. And also i would not reccomend baling behind bush hog, but i think you already knew that


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## somedevildawg

I have seen modified bushogs used by cutting out the side of the hog so the grass flies out rather than getting rehit by the blades....certainly not optimal....

Btw I don't think I could sell bales of Bahia for $5 here....matter of fact I know I couldn't, could sell it for 3 maybe for ditch hay.....


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## TractorToolsDirect

If you are thinking of contract baling, then I would definitely recommend a drum mower. The reason is simple: they are by far the most durable design. Beyond that, they will cut about any kind of hay well. If you are in an unknown field, chances are good at some point you will hit some kind of very permanent object (old foundation, fence post, tree stump, boulder, etc.). When that happens, you'll be glad you hit it with a drum mower and not a sickle, disc, or God forbid a haybine. Each of those can be extremely costly and time consuming to repair, and are much more easily damaged than a drum mower,

As for the question of a tedder, that has traditionally been the one knock against drum mowers - they windrow the cut crop. That means you have to spread it out (with a tedder) to get it dry. There is one brand that has figured out a solution to this though. Galfre makes a drum mower with the conditioner built right into the drums. Do a web search and you can find out more about them. the conditioner spreads out the hay behind the machine so it can dry.

If you want a good resource for choosing hay equipment, take some time and read through this: http://tractortoolsdirect.com/buyers-guide/

Hope this helps and good luck.


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## 128mpr

Here in New Zealand, Maxam make several models of drum mower with a conditioner (they call it a wilter) fitted which conditions the grass and spreads it in a single operation. No need to run a tedder across the field to spread the windrow behind the drum mower.

You'll find a movie on YouTube showing them. Just google "maxam mower"


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