# Mower Conditioners vs. Disc Mowers



## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

Need some more help and education...

My hay field is 40 acres of coastal... I will always do 2 cuts a year and with the right rain 3 cuts... After great advice on rakes I am either going with a 10 or 12 wheel rake from either Kuhn, Vermeer or Sitrex...

In talking with a dealer, we got on the subject of cutters where I have a Gehl disc mower. I have never had a problem with the unit, however the dealer suggested parts for the unit maybe hard to come by in a hurry. My thought, I would sell the Gehl and buy a new disc cutter. Then he mentioned Kuhn "Mower Conditioners", where you will get a higher protein level and the hay will be green for the Mower Conditioner allows the hay to dry quicker....

The kicker is the price difference of a disc mower is around 9K to 10K and the Mower Conditioner runs 20K... Given, my operation where I may sell some coastal, but 80% of my hay is for my longhorns,* is it worth the double the cost to have a potential higher protein level?*

Are there other ways to raise the protein level in my hay than buying the Mower Conditioner? Does fertilization help raise the protein and by how much? I do have an aerator as well, does that help with the protein level?

Last question, we do the old standard of breaking the hay before cutting...Would a moisture meter be more accurate? If so, which brand and what level of moisture indicates time to bale?

Thanks,

Mark


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

No need to condition coastal bermuda grass hay and I had no idea that running bermuda grass thru a conditioner would increase the protein level. Sound to me like the saleman is full of it.

I am not sure what "old standard of breaking the hay" is?


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Sounds like your dealer wants to increase his sales. What model Gehl do you have. The early ones were Vicons and the later ones I believe were built by Gehl and had Kuhn cutterbars. At least that has been my experience with the pull types. I have not had any difficulty getting Gehl parts yet and don't expect to in the near future. As far as color and protein are concerned you won't see enough gain to justify the extra expense IMO.


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## JeffMNY (Jan 5, 2014)

I have never heard of the way hay is cut will help determine protein level, but I could be wrong. Reminds me of years ago with Harvestore. Put garbage in and get gold out. Getting your soil in shape with the proper fertilization and lime is a key factor. Get soil tests and forage tests to help on amounts to use. Also when the hay is cut determines protein level. Early cut hay is always higher in nutrients than later cut hay.

Is this dealer a Gehl dealer? I talked with our dealer and he claims parts are still not a problem to get. How long will that last? Really don't know the answer to that. Don't forget he is a salesman and is out to try and make a sale.

Not sure if your mower has a conditioner or not. We have always called a discbine a disc mower. Maybe a here thing?

Now when you say aerator, do you mean a tedder? Yes this will help. The sooner you can get the hay dry and baled the better.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Aerator is used to aerate the soil. This will allow the fertilizer and rain to penatrate deeper for a better root system. I run a hay king pasture renovator on my meadows every winter to help get the spring fertilizer down to the roots.


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

rajela said:


> Aerator is used to aerate the soil. This will allow the fertilizer and rain to penatrate deeper for a better root system. I run a hay king pasture renovator on my meadows every winter to help get the spring fertilizer down to the roots.


Thanks! Yes, I have a Holland Aerator I plan on using if my fields ever dry up... Very wet winter down in Texas


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

JeffMNY said:


> I have never heard of the way hay is cut will help determine protein level, but I could be wrong. Reminds me of years ago with Harvestore. Put garbage in and get gold out. Getting your soil in shape with the proper fertilization and lime is a key factor. Get soil tests and forage tests to help on amounts to use. Also when the hay is cut determines protein level. Early cut hay is always higher in nutrients than later cut hay.
> 
> Is this dealer a Gehl dealer? I talked with our dealer and he claims parts are still not a problem to get. How long will that last? Really don't know the answer to that. Don't forget he is a salesman and is out to try and make a sale.
> 
> ...


The conditioner which there are different types for applications is designed to make the hay dry faster, therefore quicker to bale...

http://www.kuhnnorthamerica.com/us/range/hay-and-forage-tools/mower-conditioners.html


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

Checked with Gehl, closest place for parts in Texas is 97 miles away... Not convenient


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

SilentH said:


> The conditioner which there are different types for applications is designed to make the hay dry faster, therefore quicker to bale...
> 
> http://www.kuhnnorthamerica.com/us/range/hay-and-forage-tools/mower-conditioners.html


The conditioner is to crack or crush the stem on various types of large stemmed hay so the stems will dry faster. This is not an issue with fine stemmed bermuda grass. You also will have the aid of the Texas summer sun which means you could probably cut on monday and bale on tuesday if your cutting in the earlier morning hours on monday and baling in the afternoon on tuesday.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

The main advantage of the two mowers is speed, field speed and dry down speed. No protein increase of any significance. However, fertilization is a MUST......I baled some Bermuda this year for a gent. He had fertilized with 50 units of N per acre, Alicia Bermuda was tested at 7% cp.......my fields are always fertilized with 90-100 units of N and approx the same K and always tests around 11-13% cp, same hybrid, Alicia......you tell me....if you're not applying NPK you will probably be around 2-3% and you won't have a decent stand worth cutting after a bit.....running a aerator definitely helps when all you can do is top dress amendments. Save the money on the mower and get a mower and caddy....that's all ya need for 40 acres. I have a kuhn 7 rotor with KMC caddy that I'm selling at auction this weekend, hoping I get 8k, perfect set up for that plot. Get a moisture tester so you can scratch that noggin like I do sometimes.......


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Damn, a MC that will raise protein. Where they at, I want one?!!!!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

TJH said:


> Damn, a MC that will raise protein. Where they at, I want one?!!!!


I think posts 2-4 were right on......

After reading your post again, I would keep the gehl....90 miles is nothing. Depending on the condition of the machine.....


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

SilentH said:


> Thanks! Yes, I have a Holland Aerator I plan on using if my fields ever dry up... Very wet winter down in Texas


From studies I've read, aerating is a lot like religion... some folks "believe" and some folks don't... the studies pretty much say there's "no practical proof of much benefit"...

So, then, without "hard data" to back up any claims, it comes down to anecdotal evidence. Some folks swear by aeration and some folks say it's a pointless waste of time.

I rented an Aer-Way one year from a local dealer and ran it over as much ground as I could in the 24 hours I had it rented... couldn't really tell that it made any difference production-wise or quality wise. I've also run a coulter-n-shank type "Pasture Dream" aerator, and again, didn't really see any results. Some say the effect is cumulative; that is, that you have to aerate every year for a number of years to see any real advantages. Some say even then you don't see anything substantial enough to justify the fuel costs and wear and tear to do it.

All depends on your personal experience and point of view...

As for the mower stuff-- that's all salesman talk. He's fishing to see if you take the bait so he can reel you in... I wouldn't do it... sounds like you have a decent mower and if you decide to, you can always upgrade later. It's hard enough to justify the cost of baling hay without having a barn full of new expensive machinery to pay for... You can get better hay by fertilizing your bermuda after every cutting, and cutting it every 28 days (which is the recommended interval for most bermuda cuttings from the stuff I've read-- course if you go a month without rain and it's 2 inches tall at the end of the month when you should be cutting, if you're like me you let it go until you get a rain and the stuff actually puts on some growth to make enough tonnage so it's worth the diesel to cut, rake, and bale it). Cut one day (highest sugar levels in the plant are late in the day), in our typical hot dry weather here west of Houston you should have NO problem raking 24 hours later, and I can typically bale just fine 24 hours after that and put up good dry hay that still has a good green color to it. Bermuda LOVES fertilizer... you *almost* can't overfertilize bermudagrass (you can about break yourself buying fertilizer, but the more you put, the more it yields, up to a point). The main thing is, don't make the mistake I see a lot of yahoos make-- they'll fertilize it out the wazzoo, grow out a gorgeous bermudagrass stand, cut it pretty much on time-- then they'll let it LAY IN THE SUN for a WEEK and then rake it right in front of the baler, and make bales about the color of WHEAT STRAW... the stuff is SO sun-bleached that it's lost all color and turned a flat gold... I cut with a drum mower that leaves every 7.5 foot swath in a little windrow, let that dry and basically as soon as its wilted flat, I'm out there raking it up into baler windrows. I don't have a moisture meter either-- just use the old "twist-n-smell" test... I twist a bunch of hay in my hands like I'm wringing out a washcloth and then stick it right up against my nose... if I can feel or smell more than a slight amount of moisture, it's too wet... you can also tell by how easily the stems break when wrung out... dry hay breaks pretty easy, wet hay only with a lot of difficulty...

Do those things and I can about promise you you'll get better protein and feed value in your hay than you'll ever see from purchasing fancier machinery (IE mo-co and/or aerator).

Later and best of luck! OL JR


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

You're a little south of me so you might have a tad more humidity, but you sure don't need a conditioner. However, you might want to look around for a tedder. With thick Bermuda (if you fertilize) it'll do you a lot of good, Also, if you fertilize, you'll get a lot more cuttings. I typically get 5-6 every year. The only time I ever need a conditioner is if I bale a field of winter ryegrass.....then I just get my neighbor to do it.

As long as you maintain that Gehl and keep it out of T-posts, it'll last a long time. I use an old New Idea 5409 and have to get the dealer in Sealey to order parts. It works just fine. Sounds to me like you just need to do a soil test, find a fertilizer dealer, and you're pretty much set.


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> From studies I've read, aerating is a lot like religion... some folks "believe" and some folks don't... the studies pretty much say there's "no practical proof of much benefit"...
> 
> So, then, without "hard data" to back up any claims, it comes down to anecdotal evidence. Some folks swear by aeration and some folks say it's a pointless waste of time.
> 
> ...


Great advice! I am one of those who leaves the coastal out too long for I have vasey grass in the cut, therefore I am having to wait until it dries as well...and yes we do the hand break moisture system... Hopefully I killed most of the vasey last fall! I believe in the aeration especially if you are running cows on a hay patch. It's all about time & cost versus benefit received!

Definitely going to hit the patch with fertilizer! Someone needs to convince me liquid is better than granule?

Thanks!


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> You're a little south of me so you might have a tad more humidity, but you sure don't need a conditioner. However, you might want to look around for a tedder. With thick Bermuda (if you fertilize) it'll do you a lot of good, Also, if you fertilize, you'll get a lot more cuttings. I typically get 5-6 every year. The only time I ever need a conditioner is if I bale a field of winter ryegrass.....then I just get my neighbor to do it.
> 
> As long as you maintain that Gehl and keep it out of T-posts, it'll last a long time. I use an old New Idea 5409 and have to get the dealer in Sealey to order parts. It works just fine. Sounds to me like you just need to do a soil test, find a fertilizer dealer, and you're pretty much set.


I have a tedder, but I have never used it... On my list this spring to at least connect it up... I am selling an old fashioned rake and a huge blade in the next Swittzer auction. Thanks! I am going to keep my Gehl and spend my time and money on soil testing and fertilizer!

Thanks for all the help!!!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

SilentH said:


> Great advice! I am one of those who leaves the coastal out too long for I have vasey grass in the cut, therefore I am having to wait until it dries as well...and yes we do the hand break moisture system... Hopefully I killed most of the vasey last fall! I believe in the aeration especially if you are running cows on a hay patch. It's all about time & cost versus benefit received!
> 
> Definitely going to hit the patch with fertilizer! Someone needs to convince me liquid is better than granule?
> 
> Thanks!


Yeah I've dealt with Vaseygrass in fields when I was custom baling... that's one problem I haven't had to deal with on our places. Stuff is a mess when you're trying to get stuff dry enough without letting it sunburn, for sure.

Oh, I dunno... I like the dry myself... drag the spreader home with the pickup from the dealer, hook up, set the rate, throw the spreader drive wheel in gear, and hit the field. Easy-peasy...

Just wish I had a GPS system instead of the TLAR guidance system... (TLAR-- That Looks About Right)... LOL

Later! OL JR


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

> Just wish I had a GPS system instead of the TLAR guidance system... (TLAR-- That Looks About Right)..


THANKS, OL JR!! Now I have a name for my system, too!!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I have that TLAR system installed. I can tell when speeading mine needs some adjustment.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Liquid vs granular....if there's a plenty of rain don't thnk it really matters.....hard to get enuf k in liquid form but my coop has a blend of that I've used occasionally that works out to 60-0-20 I think, it's about $80-90 per acre, granular will cost a bit more. When applying granular I usually apply as much K as I can afford, usually about 60-80 units per acre. That usually up's the price to about 125-130 per acre.....
When applying liquid, make sure it's after ASAP after cut and try to do it early or late in the day, never in the middle of the day if possible...hth I use both


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

I have the DIDA guidance system installed. (Darnit I'm Doubling Again)


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

If you fertilize you will likely get 3 good cuttings. More hay on the same ground. Better quality hay from the same ground.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I have been know to use VWT (visual wheel tracking) on occasion.....before foam (or when it wouldn't work) and before GPS.......


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

My dad use to insist on flagging the field. He had a flag pole and would get in the middle and step the with of spread, and every time a slight breeze came he would adjust his step. By the time we got across 40 acres I was zig zagging.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

SilentH said:


> I have a tedder, but I have never used it... On my list this spring to at least connect it up... I am selling an old fashioned rake and a huge blade in the next Swittzer auction. Thanks! I am going to keep my Gehl and spend my time and money on soil testing and fertilizer!
> 
> Thanks for all the help!!!


I'm not sure when Mark's next auction is 'cause I quit going. He puts decent equipment in there but never seems to sell it and it's still there 3-4 auctions later. The only thing I ever see sell there is garage sale junk. You might want to call Shorty at Diamond B in Bryan, he's reputable. Good Luck!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

urednecku said:


> THANKS, OL JR!! Now I have a name for my system, too!!


LOL That's a commonly used rocketry term, but it applies equally well with a lot of stuff in farming...

Sorta like paint jobs that "look good from 30 feet away"... LOL

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> I'm not sure when Mark's next auction is 'cause I quit going. He puts decent equipment in there but never seems to sell it and it's still there 3-4 auctions later. The only thing I ever see sell there is garage sale junk. You might want to call Shorty at Diamond B in Bryan, he's reputable. Good Luck!


I drive by Switzer's new lot out there on the north side of Sealy whenever I'm up that way (not terribly often, but once in good while) and unless there's a lot of stuff that comes in on sale day or the day before, I haven't seen a lot there...

Picked up a rake and some odds and ends for the farm at his sales when he was down at the old Port City Stockyards (which is some kind of antique junkeria now IIRC) and seemed like he had some pretty good sales back then... nowdays, not so much...

Dunno... We had an auction over near Wharton about 20 years ago... did pretty well for a few years and then dwindled to nothing... Went over there a time or two and seemed like everything was okay, but then things went downhill... Finally about the only thing he had coming in was stuff folks were pulling out tree lines and from under brush-- you could tell because when it's still got lichens growing on the sheet metal and dried out McCartney Rose Vines sticking out here and there, it's sort of a tipoff... Stuff that a smaller guy like me would be interested in picking up fairly cheap like that and busting some rust, doing some repairs, a little TLC and get it working again, would end up being snatched up by a bunch of "traders" that seemed to swoop in like buzzards on a roadkill... Then they'd lowball the good stuff that a little guy couldn't afford anyway...

What'd REALLY tick you off is when these "traders" got the stuff home, pull the vines off it, shoot a cheap coat of TSC paint on it, and put it by the road for a thousand or two more than they paid for it... I know because I was looking for some machinery at that time and had carefully gone over some stuff sitting at the auction to figure what I could/should pay for it, by knowing EXACTLY what bearings were out, what was broken and needed replacing, what was worn or cracked and needed welding up, etc. to put it back to work, and then "miraculously" after some buzzard swept in and paid "too much" for it you'd see one just like it with a shiny new paint job for sale somewhere around the country a couple weeks or so later... and upon inspecting it, find the *EXACT* same problem as the one you noted at the sale a few weeks before... which had NOT been fixed, just painted over...

Eventually there was NOTHING at that auction but the same group of "traders" and fence-row junk... all the better machinery went elsewhere. Eventually the supply of fencerow junk dried up, and that was that... end of the road...

Oh well... "caveat emptor"-- let the buyer beware!

Later! OL JR


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

luke strawwalker said:


> LOL That's a commonly used rocketry term, but it applies equally well with a lot of stuff in farming...
> 
> Sorta like paint jobs that "look good from 30 feet away"... LOL
> Later! OL JR


My uncle likes to call 'em 20-20 paint jobs. Looks good from 20' or @ 20 mph.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> I drive by Switzer's new lot out there on the north side of Sealy whenever I'm up that way (not terribly often, but once in good while) and unless there's a lot of stuff that comes in on sale day or the day before, I haven't seen a lot there...
> 
> Picked up a rake and some odds and ends for the farm at his sales when he was down at the old Port City Stockyards (which is some kind of antique junkeria now IIRC) and seemed like he had some pretty good sales back then... nowdays, not so much...


He had more usable equipment at the stockyards, now he sells mostly garage sale junk (where he makes more money) and uses equipment to draw folks to the auction (but doesn't seem to ever sell it). I quit going a few years ago but used to stop by when I run up to the Sealey AGCO dealer. Shorty brings stuff in and all the consignment stuff is usually there a couple of days before the auction. He only does a spring and fall auction. I've bought used stuff from him before, and now days I'll go to his auctions more to see old friends than anything else.


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> Yeah I've dealt with Vaseygrass in fields when I was custom baling... that's one problem I haven't had to deal with on our places. Stuff is a mess when you're trying to get stuff dry enough without letting it sunburn, for sure.
> 
> Oh, I dunno... I like the dry myself... drag the spreader home with the pickup from the dealer, hook up, set the rate, throw the spreader drive wheel in gear, and hit the field. Easy-peasy...
> 
> ...


Hopefully, the TLAR system is not Shiner Bock induced. Sounds like a plan for after spreading!


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## SilentH (Aug 27, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> I'm not sure when Mark's next auction is 'cause I quit going. He puts decent equipment in there but never seems to sell it and it's still there 3-4 auctions later. The only thing I ever see sell there is garage sale junk. You might want to call Shorty at Diamond B in Bryan, he's reputable. Good Luck!


Can you send me Shorty's number or Website? Thanks!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

deadmoose said:


> My uncle likes to call 'em 20-20 paint jobs. Looks good from 20' or @ 20 mph.


Yep... you got it! I like that... 

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> He had more usable equipment at the stockyards, now he sells mostly garage sale junk (where he makes more money) and uses equipment to draw folks to the auction (but doesn't seem to ever sell it). I quit going a few years ago but used to stop by when I run up to the Sealey AGCO dealer. Shorty brings stuff in and all the consignment stuff is usually there a couple of days before the auction. He only does a spring and fall auction. I've bought used stuff from him before, and now days I'll go to his auctions more to see old friends than anything else.


And where is this??

Might have to check it out sometime when I got nothing better to do... LOL

Never hurts to have a line on a GOOD auction, either. With all the consolidation of dealerships, it's getting harder and harder to find good (or even serviceable) older equipment... and new stuff, like new trucks, is IMHO usually just too darn high for what it is, IMHO... (unless you're wearing it out every few years and replacing it).

I know the last few times I've driven through Switzer's lot I wasn't too impressed-- looked like picken's was gettin' mighty slim...

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

SilentH said:


> Hopefully, the TLAR system is not Shiner Bock induced. Sounds like a plan for after spreading!


Nah... save that for later... after spreadin', like you said...

The fertilizer guy said "it spreads about 30 feet wide" and so I drive and turn around and "that looks like about 30 feet from the closest tire track to where I am now... "TLAR"...

Bout like my BIL in Indiana I help with planting, spraying, and harvest... we were looking at some newer JD combines-- they have a refrigerated cooler under the buddy seat now... He said, "problem with that is, I'd have to carry a case up the ladder every day, and by the end of the day, I wouldn't be able to steer straight..." His son-in-law, who works for his family farm running about 5,500 acres of seed corn and stuff with all the latest toys, as well as farming on his own on the side, says without missing a beat, "That's what autosteer is for!"

LOL Must be nice... Just need a fat checkbook to make the payments, and a Hooter's gal to come clean the beer cans out of the cab every day... MMmmmmm... now we're talkin!! LOL

LOL Later! OL JR


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

deadmoose said:


> My uncle likes to call 'em 20-20 paint jobs. Looks good from 20' or @ 20 mph.


One of my great uncle's had a "hot cracklin" theory, "somebody runnin' down the road 60 mph with a hot cracklin' up his a$$ won't notice it.'


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

SilentH said:


> Can you send me Shorty's number or Website? Thanks!


http://www.diamondbauctioneers.com/Looks like the Spring auction is the end of May. I've got a friend who comes to the auction while his wife goes to the Messina Hof Winery. She usually spends more and he has to drive home.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

urednecku said:


> One of my great uncle's had a "hot cracklin" theory, "somebody runnin' down the road 60 mph with a hot cracklin' up his a$$ won't notice it.'


LOL

Down here we call it "sh!ttin' on one heel and knockin' it off with the other..."

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Mike120 said:


> http://www.diamondbauctioneers.com/Looks like the Spring auction is the end of May. I've got a friend who comes to the auction while his wife goes to the Messina Hof Winery. She usually spends more and he has to drive home.


LOL Guess if it keeps the peace...

Later! OL JR


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## Kroshto (Feb 8, 2015)

I acquired a haybine 472 this year (package deal with a baler 2500) and i live in south Louisiana.....so do i sell it and buy a different cutter or use it as it will reduce my drying time?


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

What are you baling??

Fine stemmed stuff like Bermuda, you won't really see much time saving...

Sorghum/sudan or johnsongrass or anything else that gets tall and stemmy, or clover or oats or other winter annuals, they're a great advantage and the crimper will save you a lot of waiting.

If its a sickle machine and you've got anthills, you may have your hands full...

Good luck! OL JR


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## Kroshto (Feb 8, 2015)

luke strawwalker said:


> What are you baling??
> 
> Fine stemmed stuff like Bermuda, you won't really see much time saving...
> 
> ...


Bahayia


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## CBarM (Mar 1, 2015)

Also in LA you'll probably be like us and you gotta watch out for hog rooting in that case the disc cutter is the best way to go between them pesky hogs and ant hills sometimes its like driving through a mine field praying you don't blow a window out from flying rocks and debris from the rooting and hills


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Bahia is really fine stemmed grass... no real need for a conditioner...

Whatever you use, you'll need SHARP blades! I used to bale a lot of Bahia on shares with an old family friend before he passed, and I don't know what it is about that stuff, but it seems to just eat blades... and when they get the least bit dull, about half the stuff seemed to go under the mower rather than through it... I cut with a Zweegers drum mower and it would get to where it would "blow" out the back (be thrown about 10 feet behind the mower, instead of flowing over the cutter saucers and out the back just laying out on the ground behind the mower) and that REALLY starts pulling a lot of horsepower... I've run a Kuhn disk mower for a guy in Bahia and had the same thing happen, so it's not just the mower. Put a set of sharp blades on and all was well again...

I don't know why, but Bahia just seems to eat up blades. Haven't run a sickle machine in it, so I don't know how it does with them. Disk and drum mower blades though, it's awfully tough on them.

Best of luck! OL JR


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