# Tedding vs conditioning in various hay crops



## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

I figured I might start another thread on the subject since it tends to have various facets.

I am am looking at a couple different swathing options, both tow style. A sickle type hydroswing mower with roller conditioners for a little less money Rollers are known not to come together well and need some work.

Other options is a Reese 2 disc mower with tedder option. Needs a couple belts.

Though it seems a no brainer on the disc mower speed, I see speed as a relative thing if you either lose quality without conditions, have to run a conditioner afterwards, or have to wait much longer for drying.

Obviously a LOT of this is dependant on crop. I am playing with Oats right now but considering other hay crops in the future. Maybe not so much Alfalfa though. My goal is to produce a good quality product but I may need to stay more focused on just a quality product that will sell this year. I know one dairy that looks for grinding fillers. Which ever. I guess I "might" ask the question of if sales or bale price is largely affected with either?


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## T&LSkaarfarms (Dec 11, 2011)

If you can produce a quality crop it really doesnt matter. Just depends on your climate. Here in WI you get pretty lucky some years to have 4-5 good drying days in a row. Of coarse if you do it is never when there is mature hay to mow... I know it is somewhat a regional thing, but there is a reason that the conditioner was invented... I personally would not go without one. I have never heard of anyone baling oat hay on a large scale so I am assuming if your going to stay with baling hay you will be planting something else in the near future. My point, dont buy machinery geared towards a crop that you may not farm for long.
In another post you were asking about tractor prices and sizes for a round baler. Did you consider what type of mower you need to match with any tractor. Any hydroswing would likely take a 80+ horse tractor. Not sure about the disc mowers your looking at. Just something to think about. I am not sure if I would worry about the speed of a disc type mower if it does not have a conditioner cause the time you gain by cutting at a higher speed will be more than burnt up by taking extra time to dry that hay.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree ^


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

Hmm.. I was kind of on that path too. Yes, I was on about an 80HP min on tractor size but mostly looking at over 100HP.

I tend to agree that though that sickle/conditioner might be slower and bigger, if it will increase quality, it might be worth it. Keep in mind though, I am only running 40 acres right now. Problem is that disc mower is more convenient to pick up and a much better deal IMO.

Is adding conditioning to a disc even a consideration?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

No.....down here IN GRASS, we will run the tedder directly behind the mower and run it a bit faster than normal (rpm), seems to reduce dry down, but a conditioner is a great tool to have, we generally don't use them down here, with the exception of Moco's, mostly running flails but see alot of rollers as well. I believe if the possibility was there to do alfalfa, I would opt for the conditioner.....
But, an important element is making sure things are sized correctly, hp, weight, raking width, etc.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Here it is very wet. Our normal hay windows are 2-3 days and they are humid with little wind normally. We run conditioners and ted at least once, usually twice.

How big of hydroswing - 50-60 hp should run one no problem if it weighs enough for your hills.

Disc mower tedder- sounds like a drum mower with the flails on the drums? I've always wondered why drums aren't more popular.


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

Being a new (not familiar with haying) farmer in a trying drought type climate in KS right now, I guess I am sort of questioning if the older sickle type with conditioner would be better than say buying the disc type and see how it goes and possibly changing things later?

I think we are in for another hot/dry summer but I will admit that some of the moisture we recently got (2nd biggest snow in history) and rain coming makes me hope I am wrong for more reasons than my 40 of oats.

Is one maybe a better "investment than another"? Easier to sell, profit, etc?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I started out two years ago with a disc mower and a tedder and it worked okay if the hay was not real heavy or if it was 90 plus degrees. Last year I planted some oats for hay and it seemed like they would never dry and they ended up getting rained on. I also had some really nice thick grass hay and it was the same story took forever to dry and ended up getting rained on. Towards the end of the season I bought me a New Holland haybine. I used it on some second cut grass and it seemed to work good but the crop was lighter. One thing I really like about the haybine is I could cut the crop higher than I could with the disc mower I think it really helps the hay dry to have it up off the ground a few inches. I did have a problem with the guards on the sickle getting stopped up constantly. This winter I switched over to stub guards I sure do hope that helps that problem. I am looking forward to using it this spring and see how much it helps in drying oats and heavy first cut grass. I will however still Ted the hay after cutting with the haybine as with the high humidity in my area I wouldn't want to be without a tedder.


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

Thanks for that reply and I was sort of reading between the lines here that maybe the slower but "better" sickle with conditioner is the way to go. I would like to save where I can here and I agree with the sickle design.

The only question now is what this Hesston 1014 is worth...


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## blueridgehay (Dec 25, 2012)

From my experience, there is no choice between sickle and disc. The disc is so much faster and does a better job, especially in thick hay. The ultimate choice would be a disc bind, but sounds like cost is a concern, and understand that. I feel like it if you ted right after mowing, then you get same results as a frailer and close to a conditioner. However, this means an extra trip through the field. A lot depends on what type of hay you are producing.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

We have always run a tedder after we cut. We once cut with a NH Haybine, now with a disc mower. Still go behind the mower with a tedder like before. In our conditions the top of the cut will bleach before the underside dries no matter what you use as a mower. A tedder is much more valuable to us than conditioning.
Fire ant mounds and a haybine will make a preacher cuss. The disc mower never misses a beat when it scalps one to the ground.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Depends on crop, weather, ground, critters, and whatcha got to work with. You might as well figure that whatever you buy will be inappropriate SOME of the time. HERE, I can run either a sickle bar mower or a disc mower at about the same speed because my fields are smaller. The difference is that the sickle has a cleaner cut, but the disc will cut in conditions that would choke a sickle. The sickle is cheaper to maintain and I can use the smaller rake tractor if I feel like it, but I prefer the cab with AC. I grow Bermuda and Bahia. I don't need a conditioner except it would be handy for the first couple of cuttings due to the cooler weather and humidity. If I plant ryegrass in the fall, I get a friend to cut it with his conditioner in the spring, 'cause no matter what I do, it won't dry without conditioning and tedding . With grass, I don't usually need a conditioner, tedding works fine. By the third cutting, it's usually hot and dry. I can cut one day, ted the next morning, rake that evening, and bale it the next day. Tedding is typically optional for me and it normally depends on how thick the cutting is and that depends on how much rain I get between cuttings.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Oat hay is a different animal. It does need crimping or conditioning and it has to be done at the right stage of growth which is the " dough stage". There is a short window of time for that. Once it starts getting hardened off, you will start knocking off a lot of the oats which really takes the quality down. I would much rather have something with conditioner rolls than not if you are making oat hay. It would also work for any other types of hay. JMHO, Mike


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

From looking at the pieces I am considering, it really looks like the sickle haybine will be more complex. It has a hydro pump that mounts to the tractor that runs hydro motors.

The disc OTOH is run purely by PTO and belts. Just not much there!

I will try to explain my direction to see if we can come to some sort of agreement in which piece to consider. Small 40 acre field is going into Oats right now and will come off in May. Temps should be in the 80s with about 50% RH and probably a 3-5day rain free opening in there.

After Oats and depending on soil and weather conditions, I am considering Sudan Prairie hay, or other grassy type hay crops. I don't think I will do Alfalfa just because it takes a while to establish and we have some projects to do on the property which might change some things.

From what I gathered in studies, the disc mower might cause more plant injury and some say it leaves a worse finish. Personally, I would think the sickled haybine would give the best cut if sharp but I have certainly seen them plug up where that is almost impossible with a disc.

I may need to make this decision in the next couple days because I need to go out of town Sun to get a baler and want to grab on the way.

EDIT: I did want to add/ask more about the tedder option on the disc mower. It was my understanding that it would simply spread the crop more evenly for trying but does nothing in terms of conditioning. I am not looking to buy another piece of equipment like a separate tedder or something.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Fastline, Sounds like you are looking at maybe a NH 1475. If so, they are not very complicated machines and I find that they are easy to work on. Mike


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

The sickle is a Hesston 1014, and the disc for consideration is a Reese 2400 with tedder option.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

A sickle is ok as long as you don't have fire ants or gopher mounds. Down here in Texas a sickle is as scarest as hens teeth. We do mostly coastal. We run a disc MOCO one day and tedder the next day. After the whole field is teddered we start raking and I come behind the rake and start bailing. Of course, on July and August days the tedder sits idle. I orginally bought the tedder to bust windrows after it rained. My customer uses his tractor, diesel, and time to tedder and rake ... works for me. On my own fields I will cut today ... lay out tomorrow and rake and bale the third day. There was a time in the eighties I started cutting til noon and started bailing at 4 because it was over a hundred for several days.

Summary - conditioning rolls and a tedder. You won't be disappointed when they give you a five day forcast hot and sunny ... then change it after you cut and you have fewer than five days. Good Luck


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

To dry your hay before that rain in 4 days it needs to be dried down to less than 47% moisture by sunset. Down to below 42% moisture is even better.
For this to happen the stoma in the leaves and stems need to stay open. To stay open that hay must be exposed to direct sunshine.

I can assure you this will not happen unless the hay is dropped into a full width swath. If your system is built to drop the hay into a windrow you are loosing drying time. If you Must Drop the hay into a windrow the tedder needs to be running along right behind the MoCo. 
The advantage of the Disk conditioner is we can modify some of them to spread the hay out full width using a pull type. With a Self Propelled the tires get in the way.
The nicest is the NH disk machines, NH has a kit that will spread the hay out,

Now we are assuming everyone is alive and awake. Obviously a light cutting you need some form of windrow, just so you can rake the hay into a windrow to bale.

Our Learned University Friends have the numbers to prove hay spread out full width onto damp ground will cure sooner than hay that is dropped into a windrow and later spread out with a tedder.

The day before we expect to bale the hay can be in a windrow, no problem. Rake it into a windrow when there is enough moisture to hold the leaves.

Sunset today, & the hay is stem snapping dry then the hay is ready to bale tonight or tomorrow, depending on your climate.
I am now just too old to be baling hay at night. I go to bed before 9 pm.

HERE any hay baled in July is a different ball game. In July we never have enough night dew to rake the hay without knocking half the leaves off.
Worse we can have days when there is not enough humidity to bale anytime during the day, in July or August. Then I may bale at the crack of dawn.
It is all a Here Thing.


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## fastline (Mar 2, 2013)

I think there is a lot if questions I still have on the process but for now I am trying to decide if a sickle type with conditioner should be bought over a disc mower with a simple tedder on it. Some say oat stems must be broken open if you want a fast dry which also improves quality retention. The baybine does have an auger that moves the hay to the rollers for conditioning. Probably safe to say it will leave some sort of windrow.

I would expect the disc to do a good job of straight dropping the hay and scattering it but without stem fractures, that could be an issue.

I will try to stay with hay farming for now which may include wheat, oats, sudan, prarie grass, brome, or custom mix of grasses. I am not is alfalfa is right for me yet.

Someone make this decision for me!! lol I think both will need a little work and there is actually rust through on the auger barrel on the hydroswign that will need patched. Probably other things too.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Here in Kansas there are primarily three choices of hay Alfalfa, Brohme and Prairie hay. Some grow Sudan hay-grazer etc. I rarely see tedders run around here however have noticed more of them at the dealers so it maybe they are catching on. I spread the hay out in a wide windrow perhaps 80% coverage and morning of baleing combine two rows with the morning moisture to bale. this is what works for me Here. I bale in July August prairie hay so dry down is rather quick. cut morning day one, lays day two and on day three rake in morning and bale shortly after, at times follow rake with baler especially if we have our Kansas wind blowing. On the eve of day two I check the moisture a number of times and various places such as where I started vs ended around tree lines(shaded areas) in thicker areas etc. Dryer areas will be raked first to keep as much leaf moisture as possible. Lay down what you can bale in one day and rake just before you bale if you rake it the day before your neighbor may end up with your product! This is what works for me I hope it helps you! Martin. PS this past summer due to lack of rain and thin crop there were fields that were cut day one and baled day two with 10-15% moisture!


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## blueridgehay (Dec 25, 2012)

Nitram said:


> Here in Kansas there are primarily three choices of hay Alfalfa, Brohme and Prairie hay. Some grow Sudan hay-grazer etc. I rarely see tedders run around here however have noticed more of them at the dealers so it maybe they are catching on. I spread the hay out in a wide windrow perhaps 80% coverage and morning of baleing combine two rows with the morning moisture to bale. this is what works for me Here. I bale in July August prairie hay so dry down is rather quick. cut morning day one, lays day two and on day three rake in morning and bale shortly after, at times follow rake with baler especially if we have our Kansas wind blowing. On the eve of day two I check the moisture a number of times and various places such as where I started vs ended around tree lines(shaded areas) in thicker areas etc. Dryer areas will be raked first to keep as much leaf moisture as possible. Lay down what you can bale in one day and rake just before you bale if you rake it the day before your neighbor may end up with your product! This is what works for me I hope it helps you! Martin. PS this past summer due to lack of rain and thin crop there were fields that were cut day one and baled day two with 10-15% moisture!


Fast line, my advice is to listen to what the producers in your area are saying. This is a great forum, but because we are from all kinds of different areas and producing a lot of different kinds of hay, what works very good for me, may not be the right choice for you. Producing top quality hay is hard, and when you factor in the huge differences across this 
great land in climate, drying time, you really are bound by what works in your area. I really like to hear how other people farm, but I got to keep in my mind what fits my operation and most important, what my pocket book can stand.

Jim


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

Nitram said:


> Here in Kansas there are primarily three choices of hay Alfalfa, Brohme and Prairie hay. Some grow Sudan hay-grazer etc. I rarely see tedders run around here however have noticed more of them at the dealers so it maybe they are catching on. I spread the hay out in a wide windrow perhaps 80% coverage and morning of baleing combine two rows with the morning moisture to bale. this is what works for me Here. I bale in July August prairie hay so dry down is rather quick. cut morning day one, lays day two and on day three rake in morning and bale shortly after, at times follow rake with baler especially if we have our Kansas wind blowing. On the eve of day two I check the moisture a number of times and various places such as where I started vs ended around tree lines(shaded areas) in thicker areas etc. Dryer areas will be raked first to keep as much leaf moisture as possible. Lay down what you can bale in one day and rake just before you bale if you rake it the day before your neighbor may end up with your product! This is what works for me I hope it helps you! Martin. PS this past summer due to lack of rain and thin crop there were fields that were cut day one and baled day two with 10-15% moisture!


Just because you rarely see them doesn't mean you don't need it. In the Mckinney, TX area I was the first of two who broke into using a disc conditioner. JD had a deal with someone and it was a 1470. Sometimes it would streak a little but it did wonders compared to the fire ants and a sickle. I was the first to get a tedder. After flipping windrows for the second time because of rain I was more rain approaching. Before I got out on the road here it came. I called my JD dealer and asked what he knew about tedders ... nothing. I told him I was on my way and find out. The guys in east Texas used them so he contacted on of their other dealers. They had one in a crate I told I would go get it and put it todether. (Oh was that a mistake ... it took a whole day to assemble). I used mostly to bust windrows it they got rain. I later started using it the next day after cutting and we could tedder, rake and bale that afternoon. I found out later they misquoted me on the price and I got it at a really good deal. First and only time I got to the John Deere Dealer. I got it a little below cost.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Gradyjohn, Thee & me are real close to 97ºW the devide between the Hunid East and the Arid West. We get to work around both climite conditions.

I find it interesting the different methods used to put up hay. Some are worth using and some are worse than what we are seeing localy .

What gets me is seeing a fellow just starting to rake his hay, about the time my hay is too dry to bale.
We would mow with a 6 ft sickle bar mower, as soon as that was done we would rake it and wait for it all to cure enough to bale.
An early innovation was an adjustment on the ground drive roll bar rake that flipped the hay rather than rolling it. Would flip that hay to death trying to get it to dry. Mounted a hydraulic cylinder on it to raise the basket over a windrow. Heck of a deal. Saved a lot of dead head running with the baler.
Next was a rotory rake, wonderful machine. A true joy to bale a windrow built with a rotory rake. Along about that time I found out about the tedder. There is a learning curve for that simple machine! Now my gem is to have the hay spread out enough to cover 80% or more of the ground, right out of the conditioning rollers. HERE that cuts a whole day off hay drying. A little fact that I have had a problem adjusting to.
Now I see there are some major improvements made to the wheel rake and I am considering going back using one again. Pull type though not three point hitch.
HERE I have found bermudagrass cures just fine using only a disk mower, and leaving the hay our flat two days. I also mow alfalfa with a simple disk mower starting in mid June. Mid June is when the striped blister beetle comes out of the ground and it is safer to bale alfalfa that has not been cut with a conditioning system, here in June and July.
Someone mentioned the Drum Mower. They have their good points. But they are heavy to pick up, and they only leave the hay in a windrow. BUT I have mowed in road gear and done a good job of mowing. Just have to down shift a couple of gears to turn.
*The lesson to be learned is quality hay can be put up regardless of the tools used.
Another lesson is sorry hay can also be put up using the same tools.*


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Gradyjohn,
> *The lesson to be learned is quality hay can be put up regardless of the tools used.
> Another lesson is sorry hay can also be put up using the same tools.*


Haying is 1/2 science, 1/2 knowledge and 1/2 luck. In the book, Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell states that it takes 20,000 hours of practice to master a subject. That's the equivalent of 10 years, 50 weeks a year, 40 hours per week.

From personal experience, I agree.

How many people do you know that have spent even 10,000 hours practicing one thing?

BTW: 20,000 hours is a LOT of hay.

Ralph


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

fastline said:


> Hmm.. I was kind of on that path too. Yes, I was on about an 80HP min on tractor size but mostly looking at over 100HP.
> 
> I tend to agree that though that sickle/conditioner might be slower and bigger, if it will increase quality, it might be worth it. Keep in mind though, I am only running 40 acres right now. Problem is that disc mower is more convenient to pick up and a much better deal IMO.
> 
> Is adding conditioning to a disc even a consideration?


I downsized and bought new to me haying equipment. I quit trying to fight a sicklebar in a MOCO of yesteryear (can't afford the newer ones). Just sick of fighting them.

So I bought a drum mower at 6'. Since my downsizing the 6' was perfect for the rest of my equipment and the drum had a lot fewer moving parts and price was better. I realize that if you are a big operator 6' is too small so you will have to go to a bar or a disc cutter.

Anyway, I thought I was going do my hay in grass type products but found the yield to be less than I needed. So I went with stemmy/leafy products that produced more forage per acre. In doing so, I needed to crimp the stems. That turned out to be a minor problem. In doing a little local research I wound up with not one but 2 crimping implements at the right prices that needed minor repairs to put them in serviceable condition. One was an IH 404 and the other custom made down in central TX.

I realize that having a separate crimp function means a second pass, but time is not an issue with me now and on my current diesels, fuel isn't either.

HTH,
Mark


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