# Need some advice about amending hay field-soil test results included.



## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

Last year I decided to reseed a poorly performing segment of a hay field which I lease from a neighbor. I had the local Co-Op pull soil samples and based upon their results make some amendments (principally lime and potash) in the spring 2016. In May, I disced the amendments into the soil, cultipacked the bed firmly and then broadcast seeded 4 grasses and alfalfa along with Teff grass. These seeds were immediately cultipacked into the soil.

My theory was that Teff grass, a fast-growing annual, would produce a decent yield the first year while we waited for the grasses to become established. The yield last year was marginal (mostly Teff and zero alfalfa and marginal grasses) and I noticed that this past fall the field looked unusually blanched. Here is a photo of the field:



Here is a photo of the neighboring field for comparison:



Bothered by the yield and appearance, I decided to perform my own soil test sampling and obtained 8 cores between 6-12" deep which were sent to the lab for analysis. Here are those results:



It's obvious that there are some significant chemical imbalances here. I need advice on how to go about correcting this soil and when. I'm not so much interested in 'how much' to amend, but rather the timing of when to make those amendments and how to work them into the soil. My thoughts would be to add lime, Boron and potash initially.

We have yellow sand here with little or no OM due to years of conventional tillage. How do I go about improving the OM of the soil?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

From what I am seeing (and if it was in my area), you need a ton (no pun intended) of potash, but I have always been under the influence of no more that 500# an acre every 4-6 months.

I hope someone chimes in on you CEC numbers, I am still a student trying to learn the importance of those numbers.

As far as OM, I usually run around 2.5-3.5%, on my hay fields, I am removing most of each year's growth. If I just cut one cutting and left it (well spread) each year I know I would increase my OM.

I would work on getting your numbers in line a lot more BEFORE I would spend much on alfalfa seed. IMHO

Larry


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

With that low a CEC, I would be surprised if you hold K or N for very long in a "yellow" sand. You might want to consider investing in some red clover as a green manure crop, inoculate the clover, probably could still frost seed up your way in Feb-March. The clover will produce N and increases om. I would think that reasonable investments in K (like up to 200#K) would be a better idea than really high numbers. I don't use it but your situation may be one where foliar apps are appropriate. If we had your numbers in my neck of the woods I would be thinking aluminum but I can't see that with your pH


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

one other thing-I no-tilled og in teff stubble that was supposed to be killed by the local Co-op. Unfortunately, they blew it. I had spots of dead teff where it had lodged and killed itself. Where the dead spots were I had great germination and a wonderful stand. Where the teff persisted (from the 15th Sept til frost-can't remember the date of frost) not a sprig of og germinated. Teff is just too thick and dense and doesn't allow much if any competition which is why it is good for getting weeds under control. May be partly responsible for the appearance of your field.


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

K and Ca are low, but pH is nice, so probably not too much lime. Gypsum would give you Ca and S without a lot of upward pH movement. Lots of K, definitely. Lots and lots of roots will help with OM, which will help with the low CEC numbers. It goes mostly hand in hand, there. More OM, higher CEC. More clay, more CEC. My impression is that sand makes that a challenge.


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## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

Hmmm....Thanks for all of the advice. Lots of food for thought and some follow up questions about the technical aspects of this process:

I was not familiar with the term "green manure crop". I am now. I have successfully frost seeded clover in the past, so I certainly could try that now and this would be an ideal time to do so.

Questions:


Should I sow a cover crop now and then, what, disc it in after it has matured in early summer and then replant with hay?
Should I even try to sow a cover crop now if the potash levels are so low?
Should I amend the soil now prior to sowing the cover crop keeping in mind that we are currently snow free, but recognizing that we will have freeze-thaw cycles (and intermittent snows) for weeks to come?
Should I wait to amend the soil to just prior to the definitive planting so that those amendments "hang around" in this sandy soil with low CEC for when they are needed?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Do you have access to manure?It would help with your P&K and also your organic matter along with the other goodies it contains.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

If you have access to a broadcast spreader, you can spin on muriate of potash pretty easy and bump up your K levels. You may want to check with your local ag people, if growing green manure crop, crimson clover I think produces a lot more canopy and root systems quickly. Not sure if it is good in your area or not. You may want to plow it down, it will be a lot of material. If you do that and can get the field nice and smooth (which will be hard since you have all that plant material in there) you could plant teff, cut it once, then no till permanent hay mix. Your stubble in your field looks just like what teff stubble looks like on my farm. Dies with the frost and its brown with nothing to be green like the neighbors field.

If you have the time and patience, growing a heavy green manure crop this year, plowing in the fall, let it rot over the winter, disc well and get it smooth, grow teff next season in a nice seedbed, then no till permanent crop. If you can get manure like Cy suggested, you can apply all this year and then plow under, then get the weeds controlled next year with the teff.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

196, a couple of questions for you: The pictures that you posted, when were they taken?

Second question if you are attempting to grow hay/teff, why did was the test/recommendations done for 'pasture'? In my mind I would want recommendations for alfalfa or grass/hay.

Then the amount of samples, I take a sample for about 5 acre piece of ground per sample (in MY area). You took 8 samples, what size area did each sample represent?

Larry


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## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

Larry- The lab added that term "pasture". I sent the samples in clearly marked 'hay field". Does this matter in some way? The pictures were taken January 2, 2017. The 8 samples were equally spaced within this 2.2 acre field. Yes, I know, seems like overkill, but within the field there were significant variations of the different flora, so I thought I would look to see if regional differences existed. This little plot is my experimental lab of sorts and if I can figure out how to solve my problems here, then I can extend what I have learned globally to my other fields.

swmnhay- Yes, we have plenty of fresh horse manure (I have no equipment or facility for compost), but my phos levels are already high. Do I want to add more? In addition, we bed horses on pine shavings. Does applying a heavy load of pine shavings to this ground help me in any way? I was always under the impression that in order to break down the carbon in the shavings, the microbes would use up a significant volume of the nitrogen in the soil. Your thoughts?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

tmac196 said:


> swmnhay- Yes, we have plenty of fresh horse manure (I have no equipment or facility for compost), but my phos levels are already high. Do I want to add more? In addition, we bed horses on pine shavings. Does applying a heavy load of pine shavings to this ground help me in any way? I was always under the impression that in order to break down the carbon in the shavings, the microbes would use up a significant volume of the nitrogen in the soil. Your thoughts?


I guess to do it correctly you should test the manure.IDK if some more P would do you any harm or not.You are definatly way short on the K and a commercial fertilizer of straight potash would be the easist way to balance it.

I'm amazed that the fertility is that far out of balance and wonder why that is?


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> I guess to do it correctly you should test the manure.IDK if some more P would do you any harm or not.You are definatly way short on the K and a commercial fertilizer of straight potash would be the easist way to balance it.
> 
> I'm amazed that the fertility is that far out of balance and wonder why that is?


sludge or poultry litter would both be high in N and P with not much K-right? although would think if lots of either were previously used there would be some om residual.


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## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

*Update- February 23, 2017: * Shortly after I digested all of your comments, I made a phone call to our local co-op who was the broker for the soil testing and described what I was planning to do. An employee there, who is also a local forage grower, inquired as to what depth of this soil that I obtained these soil samples from and when I replied 6-12 inches, he told me that that was "part of the problem". He suggested that I obtain soil samples at the root depth (1-2") before we make any decision as to what amendments to make to the soil. He claims that the potassium values are likely to be significantly different at this depth.

He then suggested, to my surprise, that I consider frost seeding the field *now* with a mixture of grasses and alfalfa. I was somewhat surprised by this recommendation believing that new grass seedlings would be very vulnerable to being killed off by the balance of the winter weather which were likely to have in my part of the state. While it is unseasonably warm now, it is a likely to get back to the deep freeze for a time before spring arrives.

Has anyone ever heard of such a thing where frost seeding of grasses and alfalfa occurs in February or March in Southern Michigan?

Any feedback will obviously be very welcome. At this point, I am not sure how to proceed. I did obtain more so all samples at 1-2 inch in depth and I will report those results when I get them back. I have ordered seed, but I am not about to apply it unless I am a little bit more convinced that it is safe for the seedlings to do so.

What are your thoughts?


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

Consistency of depth is definitely important. I would pick one depth and stick with it, so that you can compare after adding ammendments. Here they typically recommend 4-6 inches for forage fields. I sample mine at 6 inches. Roots will go down deeper than that, but it is a good start.

But, it would be hard to compare a 12 inch deep sample to a 6 inch one, particularly on more immobile elements like P. But taking a top couple inch sample will tell you if what you did last year is still in just the upper layer, or is gone.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Our co op here is in cahoots with the soil testing lab....so the lab, I heard, gave a liberal need requirement. I was told this first hand by one of the co op employees that I am good friends with.....so I started using a "outside lab" and after comparing several results, I believe that there was a strong indication of such.

I test my grasses at 3"-4" and my alfalfa I test deeper....according to how dry it is and how deep I can insert the corer.

Regards, Mike


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

tmac196 said:


> Larry- The lab added that term "pasture". I sent the samples in clearly marked 'hay field". Does this matter in some way? The pictures were taken January 2, 2017. The 8 samples were equally spaced within this 2.2 acre field. Yes, I know, seems like overkill, but within the field there were significant variations of the different flora, so I thought I would look to see if regional differences existed. This little plot is my experimental lab of sorts and if I can figure out how to solve my problems here, then I can extend what I have learned globally to my other fields.
> 
> swmnhay- Yes, we have plenty of fresh horse manure (I have no equipment or facility for compost), but my phos levels are already high. Do I want to add more? In addition, we bed horses on pine shavings. Does applying a heavy load of pine shavings to this ground help me in any way? I was always under the impression that in order to break down the carbon in the shavings, the microbes would use up a significant volume of the nitrogen in the soil. Your thoughts?


When my lab results come back there is a difference in recommendations for an alfalfa field verses a grass or grass/alfalfa mix. This is why I asked the question about what was the lab analyzing for and for a 2 acre field IMHO one sample would have been sufficient (I take 10-20 samples at 3-5 inches, mix together, then summit a sample of mixture, but that is MY system).

I would NOT spread the horse manure on these fields being you are using wood shavings for bedding. I my experience the wood shaving would do nothing but make your soils ph much worse than you presently have. Any type of wood products (shavings/saw dust) is generally acidotic in MY area.

There is a good article in the latest Farm Journal about re-storing soil health, that if you can get your hands on you might find very beneficial (by Darrel Smith), I will try to attach (if web page doesn't work I will attempt attaching article). The article is looking at corn yields but I still believe it would almost apply to any other crop too and it takes time to re-store soil's health.

http://www.agweb.com/farmjournal/article/restoring-soil-health-takes-time-naa-darrell-smith/



tmac196 said:


> *Update- February 23, 2017: * Shortly after I digested all of your comments, I made a phone call to our local co-op who was the broker for the soil testing and described what I was planning to do. An employee there, who is also a local forage grower, inquired as to what depth of this soil that I obtained these soil samples from and when I replied 6-12 inches, he told me that that was "part of the problem". He suggested that I obtain soil samples at the root depth (1-2") before we make any decision as to what amendments to make to the soil. He claims that the potassium values are likely to be significantly different at this depth.
> 
> He then suggested, to my surprise, that I consider frost seeding the field *now* with a mixture of grasses and alfalfa. I was somewhat surprised by this recommendation believing that new grass seedlings would be very vulnerable to being killed off by the balance of the winter weather which were likely to have in my part of the state. While it is unseasonably warm now, it is a likely to get back to the deep freeze for a time before spring arrives.
> 
> ...


As far as frost seeding, I have a neighbor who does it just about every year (alfalfa alone) sometimes on top of a couple inches of late snow (late March). Many moons ago, I can remember my Grandfather and Dad doing frost seeding with alfalfa and brome grass or timothy, so I will venture to say this is a possibility in YOUR area also.

IMHO, if you don't mix several samples together (in my case 10-20 probes), your sample for a given area could be compromised. Being you are close to me in Michigan, just imagine the spot you happened to probe was used as an outhouse by a deer the day before, would make that sample a little suspect to say the least.

FYI, why I ask about when you took the pictures is I like to leave at least 10-12 inches of re-growth (especially on newly seed) on my alfalfa seeding. This helps hold snow and decreases winter kill in MY area and that old material helps with creating some organic matter. Your fields appear to look much shorter than I would have left mine.

As far as root zones, in MY area grass I would say 6 inches or less, with alfalfa last year I was cutting roots off at 6+ feet while digging a grave for a mother stone in a field I was prepping to re-seed back into alfalfa. A friend of mine told me of finding alfalfa roots down 20 feet, when they dug their trench silo, years ago.

Sorry it took awhile to get back to you, I went on a little business trip to Florida, only to come back to daffodils getting ready to bloom in front of my office, I am just glad I am not a maple syrup producer here in Michigan.

Larry


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## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

*Update March 8, 2017:*

I've spoken with a few local growers, considered the advice provided on this forum, done some investigation on the internet and repeated the soil tests at a depth of 1-2 inches. This is what I have discovered/decided:

Soil test repeat results:



I found this product after getting advice from a local grower near me. The goal is to assess if this can do what it says about enhancing my CEC in poor quality soils:

http://andersonshumates.com/products/#HumicDG

Image of the field in it's current state. In the foreground you can see uniform Teff stubble. In the background there are a few patches which are just starting to green up:



Close up of the Teff stubble:



Close up of regions where the Teff was broadcast seeded more sparsely last season. I believe there are some areas of alfalfa growth, but I see no grasses, yet.:



The plan at this time is to wait until mid-April (when the hard frost risk has lessened around here) apply the Humic DG at 40#/ac and make specific soil amendments for the potassium and boron, in particular. After application, I plan to disc up the soil and then simultaneously broadcast seed the field with Oats (hence the need to wait for frost free period) as a cover crop and 4 species of grasses (Brome, Timothy, Festulolium, Orchard) and Alfalfa. These seeds will be subsequently cultipacked into the soil.

The volume of alfalfa currently present in the field is very scant and very patchy as the Teff grass and the poor soil quality seemed to choke it out last season.

Any feedback on this plan would be most appreciated.

tmac


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

K is still really low. That would probably be the first thing to address based on the later samples. With any hay you are removing good bits of K from the field, and if you have alfalfa in the mix, it really, really, really likes K. You'd probably need about 500 pounds of muriate of potash per acre, which would probably be a lot to put out at one time. Split the application, probably.


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## tmac196 (Aug 26, 2014)

One more question came to mind.

If I do follow through on my plan, should I just amend the potash and boron at the time of seeding and avoid using any urea until later?

Is it incorrect to add urea just prior to seeding a field? Will the nitrogen from the urea granules "burn" the new seedlings out of existence?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IF you are going to add/use nitrogen (urea), I would be inclined to use it closer to the time the plant needs it most. Rational: my understanding nitrogen doesn't stay in place very long compared to other nutrients (either washes out of soil or vaporizes). However, I believe there are some stabilizers that can be added to nitrogen (or there used to be anyhow).

Larry


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