# LED shop lighting



## mlappin

Anybody try LED's for shop lighting? I'm tired of fluorescents and I hate the HID lamps.

Replaced several lights in the house lately with LEDs and have found if you replace a 60 watt incandescent with a 60 LED it's too bright, replaced four in the ceiling fan in our bedroom with four LED's and they about burned our eyes out, they don't however liked to be dimmed when more than one is on the dimmer. In the bedroom you turn em down a little bit and one may go out the rest stay lit, turn it down some more and only two will stay lit, but the one in the office stays lit the whole time no matter how low you turn em, they all are dimmable btw.

I'm going to install a couple in the one barn while its till frigid and see how they like starting when it's cold out.


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## somedevildawg

mlappin said:


> Anybody try LED's for shop lighting? I'm tired of fluorescents and I hate the HID lamps.
> 
> Replaced several lights in the house lately with LEDs and have found if you replace a 60 watt incandescent with a 60 LED it's too bright, replaced four in the ceiling fan in our bedroom with four LED's and they about burned our eyes out, they don't however liked to be dimmed when more than one is on the dimmer. In the bedroom you turn em down a little bit and one may go out the rest stay lit, turn it down some more and only two will stay lit, but the one in the office stays lit the whole time no matter how low you turn em, they all are dimmable btw.
> 
> I'm going to install a couple in the one barn while its till frigid and see how they like starting when it's cold out.


No idea for shop lighting, seems too expensive at this juncture for shop lighting. If those are conventional dimmers for incadescents, they won't work with LED lighting.....been there and done that, that's why I haven't made the switch in my house, house is loaded with dimmers, I'm a big fan of dimmers, mine are smart dimmers by Leviton. The same tech is not applicable with LED, new dimmers is the only answer I think....$$$$


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## Vol

I am thinking that I saw some LED bulbs that said they were compatible/friendly with dimmers....think I saw them at Lowes...probably higher too.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg

Vol said:


> I am thinking that I saw some LED bulbs that said they were compatible/friendly with dimmers....think I saw them at Lowes...probably higher too.
> 
> Regards, Mike


That's where I got mine, they are friendly with their dimmers.......

Thnk I paid bout $50 for my Leviton dimmers, these "new" dimmers were more than that and not as nice, finally scrapped the idea....


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## mlappin

somedevildawg said:


> That's where I got mine, they are friendly with their dimmers.......
> 
> Thnk I paid bout $50 for my Leviton dimmers, these "new" dimmers were more than that and not as nice, finally scrapped the idea....


These say nothing about needing a special dimmer to work with them, just say dimmable. I just have the standard dimmer in the office for use with a incandescent and the LED works perfect with it but its a single bulb. The other dimmers we have in the house are in the ceiling fans and are wireless. I'm thinking since even solid state stuff isn't manufacturered so each piece perfectly matches the next, that one bulb might be slightly more sensitive to lower voltage than the next?


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## Gearclash

I have also wondered about LED lights for my machine shed. It currently has a bunch of 300 watt incandesent lamps that pull about 26 amps when they are all on. I've tried fluorescent standard base lamps of various types in my dad's machine shed, and havn't been real impressed. Some have had to be replaced too soon, and all of them have lousy performance in the cold winter weather.


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## somedevildawg

Gearclash said:


> I have also wondered about LED lights for my machine shed. It currently has a bunch of 300 watt incandesent lamps that pull about 26 amps when they are all on. I've tried fluorescent standard base lamps of various types in my dad's machine shed, and havn't been real impressed. Some have had to be replaced too soon, and all of them have lousy performance in the cold winter weather.


I agree I ain't never met a CFL that I liked...AND I ain't never had one last 10 years....


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## Gearclash

Speaking of fluorescent lamp life, I just had an education on these newer 4 ft fixtures. They are Orion Nightlighters with 6 T8 bulbs in an enclosed fixture. Had some lamps that were out, and turned out there were two bad ballasts as well. Called to the company to find out how to trouble shoot the things, and they said they usually see a 3 year bulb life and about 5 years ballast life. These are spendy fixtures new!! I am just not very impressed with that. The light is good from these things, but the upkeep seems high.

Now I wonder how bad the T5's will be??


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## rjmoses

Gearclash said:


> Speaking of fluorescent lamp life, I just had an education on these newer 4 ft fixtures. They are Orion Nightlighters with 6 T8 bulbs in an enclosed fixture. Had some lamps that were out, and turned out there were two bad ballasts as well. Called to the company to find out how to trouble shoot the things, and they said they usually see a 3 year bulb life and about 5 years ballast life. These are spendy fixtures new!! I am just not very impressed with that. The light is good from these things, but the upkeep seems high.
> 
> Now I wonder how bad the T5's will be??


I've had my indoor arena for 12 years now. I have 48 3-bulb fluorescent (32 watt T8's) fixtures with the "instant on" ballasts. I have replaced all ballasts at least once and am on my second go. I order ballasts by the case--10. But, I have only replaced 12 bulbs in that time!

It is a real PITA to be replacing ballasts every 3-4 weeks. I usually wait until I have 3 out, then get some help for handing covers, bulbs, etc. up to me so I'm not climbing the ladder 4-5 times to replace a ballast.

BTW: Sylvania ballasts are the *worst!* They only last maybe 3 years.

Ralph


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## Gearclash

> BTW: Sylvania ballasts are the *worst!* They only last maybe 3 years.


Will make a mental note of that. The ballasts in the Orion fixtures are GE.

An experienced electrictrian once suggested that *GE* is short for "*G*et *E*lectrocuted".


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## mlappin

The instant on or cold start ballasts will work in the cold, however it's my belief the more times you start em when its cold, the quicker they burn out.

We only heat the shop when we actually work in it, but I have the most problems with bulbs and what not in the winter, seems if you start the heat first thing in the AM, then wait a bit the bulbs and ballasts last longer.


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## Mike120

Interesting...I use Orion stall lights on the horses that are showing in winter. They are about 8 years old and haven't failed yet. I just replaced most of the ballasts in the barn last year. They didn't all go out at once, I just waited until the bitching and moaning approached an unbearable level. I never thought about the life of the ballast being driven by the number of cold starts....I don't usually get the amount of cold as we've gotten this year. I'll have to look into the LEDs for my shop. Nothing seems bright enough and as a result I've got drop lights everywhere.


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## mlappin

I've found LED shop lights in a T8 configuration, you bypass the ballasts and only supply power to one end of the tube, the other is just support. I might order a few and see how they work.

A local lighting place in the county seat claims with these new electronic ballasts they should have a surge protector, if your power is dirty enough they also recommend a filter to increase life.

Of course they also only sale the $150 plus per unit fluorescent fixture for shop lights.


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## rjmoses

I haven't done a whole bunch of reading LED T8's, but what I see tells me to watch the output real carefully. The few that I have checked out come in at about 16-1700 lumens vs 25-2700 for fluorescent bulbs. Life expectancy seems to run the same as fluorescents also.

And some of them are PRICEY! Up to $80/bulb. They had better be good for that price!

Ralph


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## Vol

DSL seems to be knowledgeable on lighting.....I thought he would have chimed in by now.

Regards, Mike


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## Mike120

It's cold and miserable here and I was bored....I got to thinking about Marty's comment on cold starts wearing out a ballast. The physics really didn't make sense to me. I hadn't thought about why ballasts wore out, or that I didn't remember having to change them out when I was younger. Turns out there is a whole new world in lighting that I just took for granted. I guess I'll have to be nicer to the Electrical Engineers that work for me.....

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/connect/lighting_university/

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj9hU1O4UB02hL7ABUsWNIZ-PVBoONl9N


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## mlappin

Mike120 said:


> It's cold and miserable here and I was bored....I got to thinking about Marty's comment on cold starts wearing out a ballast. The physics really didn't make sense to me. I hadn't thought about why ballasts wore out, or that I didn't remember having to change them out when I was younger. Turns out there is a whole new world in lighting that I just took for granted. I guess I'll have to be nicer to the Electrical Engineers that work for me.....
> 
> http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/connect/lighting_university/
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLj9hU1O4UB02hL7ABUsWNIZ-PVBoONl9N


The old ballasts were much heavier. More material more heat dissipation. My theory is when it gets cold enough instead of instant on, it can take ten minutes or better for them to reach full brightness, during this time the ballast might be putting out more juice to keep em lit than when lets say it's 32 instead of -5. More output means more heat build up and just like all electronics, the new ballasts don't like excessive heat.


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## DSLinc1017

Vol said:


> DSL seems to be knowledgeable on lighting.....I thought he would have chimed in by now.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I've been a bit busy lately, but been meaning to add some insight. Off the shelf LED's have finally come down in price to make it affordable. With that said the technology is changing almost daily, so we will see the price continue to drop. I did just install some off the shelf LED's in my hay loft, "A" lamp style, they look like regular light bulbs, got them at Homdepot! I put them in sealed glass protective enclosures. Made sure to get daylight lamps to give a cooler color temputure. so that when your eye is compeating with the daylight coming from the hayelevator it doesn't have to constantly correct. For LED's the cold isn't an issue its heat, I have yet to see how these lamps do in the glass enclosures in the summer. Heat will greatly shorten the life of an Led, there are only a small handful of actual manufactures of the LED but 100's of company's putting them in fixtures. The cheaper fixtures tend to have cheaper electronics that will not allow for good dimming. As well its possible to "over drive" an LED, this will shorten its life and effect its color temputure over time. You guessed it most of these company's are in china. But don't be fooled, most of the good manufactures of the better fixtures are also being made in china, just better engineering from out side of china. 
When I'm back at the office I'll look into posting some good resources for shop LED lighting. 
As far as the T8's. they are cost effective and very very bright. I have some of them in my facility. A few years ago I looked into LED's. but the cost was too high back then. The biggest draw back to fluorescents is the fact that they contain mercury, fine if you recycle it, for most people however I fear over time that isn't going to happen. In the near future I can see most of our industrial lighting going to LED. We are seeing street lighting and stop lights already taking a foothold. The entertainment industry is inundated with LEDS.


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## mlappin

Truth in the mercury thing, I can't find anywhere within a reasonable distance that recycles fluorescent bulbs.

Like I already pointed out, replaced a 60 watt incandescent with the equivalent 60 watt LED and it was way too bright. But the original incandescent was one of those cut crystal looking bulbs.


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## DSLinc1017

mlappin said:


> Truth in the mercury thing, I can't find anywhere within a reasonable distance that recycles fluorescent bulbs.
> 
> Like I already pointed out, replaced a 60 watt incandescent with the equivalent 60 watt LED and it was way too bright. But the original incandescent was one of those cut crystal looking bulbs.


Exactly! There is no easy way to recycle fluorescents. On the same note, Homdepot will recycle used rechargeable batteries.

I will bet that your perceived brightness is color tempature. Daylight verse warm or indoor. Or another way to explain color temputure is a dimmed incandescent verse daylight, daylight (sun) is cool 6400 kelvin as an incandescent is 3200 kelvin. If you put the two side by side both putting out the same lumens but different color tempature. The cooler light will be perceived as brighter.

In the last year, warmer LED's have gotten a lot better.

Hope this helps, 
Michael,


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## deadmoose

mlappin said:


> Truth in the mercury thing, I can't find anywhere within a reasonable distance that recycles fluorescent bulbs.
> 
> Like I already pointed out, replaced a 60 watt incandescent with the equivalent 60 watt LED and it was way too bright. But the original incandescent was one of those cut crystal looking bulbs.


http://www.mercurytechnologies-mn.com/box.html. 
I wonder how much you pay?


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## mlappin

I actually prefer the daylight fluorescents in the shop, 6500K I think?

I hate working inside and the soft whites seemed gloomy. The wife also likes the daylight bulbs in the laundry room, but with her health problems she's stuck inside a good par tot the winter and the daylight bulbs seem to keep her from getting depressed as much by the winter gloom.


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## DSLinc1017

Ok great you get it, yes for the shop, daylight is much better way to go. It will give you much better contrast. In trying to explain, I didn't know what you already understood. I often teach lighting and design to high school and college students so I get lost on what folks understand.

T8's might be a good fit for shop type lighting because they will offer you a diffused light. As the lamps are frosted and there is a reflector. This will help eliminate shadows.

Here is a good friend of ours who might be a good resource for you. If you find something that interests you PM me as we are a dealer for them and can help out on pricing. 
http://www.ledsource.com/
Cheers, Michael.


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## Mike120

mlappin said:


> The old ballasts were much heavier. More material more heat dissipation. My theory is when it gets cold enough instead of instant on, it can take ten minutes or better for them to reach full brightness, during this time the ballast might be putting out more juice to keep em lit than when lets say it's 32 instead of -5. More output means more heat build up and just like all electronics, the new ballasts don't like excessive heat.


The old heavy ballasts were magnetic where the new ones are electronic. I found a youtube video that dissected all three types, but I can't find it now. It said the little ones only last about 5 years.


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## ontario hay man

I have 23w cfl bulbs in my barn for 5 years and never replaced one. They run on average 6 hours a day. So they have already ran over 10000 hours. They are pretty cheap to.


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## mlappin

Checked the LEDsource link out, bet the price of these will make you pucker.

http://www.ledsource.com/products/philips-led-t8-instantfit-lamp/

I'd most likely go with the ones I bypass the ballast altogether as I know I have a few bad ballasts. Would rather just do away with em all together.


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## DSLinc1017

mlappin said:


> Checked the LEDsource link out, bet the price of these will make you pucker.
> 
> http://www.ledsource.com/products/philips-led-t8-instantfit-lamp/
> 
> I'd most likely go with the ones I bypass the ballast altogether as I know I have a few bad ballasts. Would rather just do away with em all together.


Ill get you some pricing, and on several options.


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## mlappin

DSLinc1017 said:


> Ill get you some pricing, and on several options.


 Thanks, would be much appreciated.

I've decided to stay away from the ones on ebay, most won't give an honest lumens per watt. Most say 90-120 per watt, so which is it guys, do I get 90 lumens per watt or 120? Or is your quality control or components so shoddy you don't know either?


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## ontario hay man

Most likely true for the last sentence.


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## DSLinc1017

mlappin said:


> Thanks, would be much appreciated.
> 
> I've decided to stay away from the ones on ebay, most won't give an honest lumens per watt. Most say 90-120 per watt, so which is it guys, do I get 90 lumens per watt or 120? Or is your quality control or components so shoddy you don't know either?


The particular link your where looking at is lamps manufactured by Phillips, they are one of the best manufactures of LED's in the world. Cree is one of the others. LED source doesn't sell crap or after market fixtures or lamps. I'm not an expert on these types industrial applications, however I do trust them, the owner has been in the business from the beginning. My inside sales guy was out today, but I will get you the info as promised.

I was pointing out earlier that LED's can be overdriven, this might be what you are seeing on some of the specs. Watts to lumens.


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## DSLinc1017

Mlappin,

Finally got some numbers from my inside sales guy at led source. Will send you a PM with some numbers tomorrow. I've been under the weather, sorry for the delay. They aren't as bad as I thought.


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