# making 87 acres profitable?



## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

2 years ago we bought 87 acres in the country. We Had been looking for 10 acres but this propertycaught our eye and the price was right. It was ear marked for a housing development!

Out here in mid michigan, property that large is exceptionally rare unless it's 100% planted fields, so we wanted to save it.

The plan had been to earn some sort of income off it to eventually support our family of 7.

Property has 40 acres of woods/wetlands and 47 acres of grass hay fields/scrub trees.

We have 1 nice hay field 6 acres and one small one of 2 acres. A few areas are too wet to drive even a quad through without huge ruts so no hay harvested there, and roughly 14 acres that could be replanted with grass hay.

We had planned to sell the hay, but that was prettytough. Unless someone has bought your hay before they don't want it since it could be crap (there's too much crap hay out here). Those that did buy it loved it, but we had been selling off the field for $2 since barn was not completed to store in.
Despite being abandoned for 25 years the fields still gave excellent hay, our horses only left behind the random thistles!

What have others done with similar acreage to be profitable? We also have experimented doing maple syrup (can put in 400 taps), sweet corn and looking into horse boarding.

I've heard about people running business on 5 acres... so 87 should be able to sustain SOMETHING right??


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

I would suggest looking into nitch markets .. grass feed, organic , vegs, fruits, etec , your tress which there are members on here that tap trees that could help you , boarding, what ever you feel there is a strong market for , and you could get the premium cash out of go for it ... Not knowing much about them other than enough info to maybe mislead you .. but Goats.. Goats like some of the land you described.. there are meat goats and milk goats and just plain stinky old goats... I just know with 7 family members and 87 ac.I would use the labor I have available to capitalize on my projects that will pay a premium for that specialty market .... Good Luck


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I like to farm with money instead farming for money... It works for me. The day job makes farming fun....You might drive your self crazy trying to start out and actually make money...

I am with snowball on this one. Niche is where it is at. None GMO is getting big and people are willing to pay good money for food raiesed non GMO. Value added products like cheeses,ice cream etc also increase margin but also increase work load and risk...


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

If your kids are older grow a market garden unless your too far away from a city. Veggies, fruits, berries etc. The kids can help with the hoeing, picking planting. Some people have a u-pick berry operation. People pay you to come pick your berries. Free range chickens in a moveable pen or hogs for that matter. It all depends on how much work you want to do and what type of work you like to do. Usually the highest gross dollars per acre a person can earn is also the most labour intensive.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

hog987 said:


> If your kids are older grow a market garden unless your too far away from a city. Veggies, fruits, berries etc. The kids can help with the hoeing, picking planting. Some people have a u-pick berry operation. People pay you to come pick your berries. Free range chickens in a moveable pen or hogs for that matter. It all depends on how much work you want to do and what type of work you like to do. Usually the highest gross dollars per acre a person can earn is also the most labour intensive.


You got that right... Tobacco and produce are the big winners around here for small acreage


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Can you fence open areas in and raise beef?
Do the syrup on the wooded part?


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

Lol, I'm running most everything myself with a 2 yr old during the day and 4 older kids in the evening, I'm driving myself crazy trying to make it look like progress is being made!

Erik has a very profitable day job, which has allowed us to pay everything in cash. However his job is very stressful and most weeks works 60+ hrs. he'd much rather be mostly self sustaining off the land and work part time out of his barn.

So yes, you are correct.. try to have the best of both worlds!

I was thinking niche as well. Also a bit of creative marketing 

I guess I'm just trying to cram 20 years worth of trial and error into 3 years. I'm trying to slow down and focus but it's hard.

I guess right now I need to focus on making sure my $300 worth of fertilizer pays off!


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## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

I'd think the horse boarding thing could be the way to go if your not too far off 131. It would be a quick trip from Rockford or GR for people to make. Not sure if hay would be a sustainable income around here as even really good grass hay only brings about $4-5 a bale and after input costs (ie labor, fuel fertilizer etc) that doesn't leave much of a profit margin. 
If you don't mind me being nosy where exactly is the property? I live over in the Bailey-Casnovia area.


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

I got my first round of chickens last week. Eggs and meat. Farm shares is a popular market out here, people pay into the farm and get produce or meat or milk you produce. Might be a good option for us too.

We had talked about cows, heck even deer or caribou. 
We did produce and corn last year. Deer ate the corn tassels and coyotes ate corn cobs! Rabbits ate the garden. I heard blood meal works well to fertilize and keep pests out, but how do I keep coyotes out?? I know it was coyotes...got them on the game cam!


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## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

A fence works best to keep critters out but can be a bit cost prohibitive for most crops. We are fencing all the new orchards we plant over here with an 8 ft tall fence. Other meathods that will work for keeping deer or other critters out of a garden are to tie mesh bags of strong smelling bar soap (Irish Spring works good) to posts around and in the garden. Most critters don't like the smell and will leave the area alone. There are also some sprays that contain ammonia that can be used such as a product called Hinder that works good but will need to be reapplied after any rain or irrigating.
As for the coyotes, hunting them would be your best bet. If you don't hunt there are plenty of people in the area that would love to help erridicate them for you.


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## treymo (Dec 29, 2013)

I guess I farm to make money because I don't want to have a day job.

Can you graze livestock on it instead of haying? Sounds like it would be better suited for that

Trey


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

Yes we could graze it.
Problem is, everyone we talk to says there's no money in it. No money in cattle, no money in buffalo, no money in deer, no money in horse boarding, no money in farming anything 

Is farming like running your own business? Lots of people fail, but those that succeed are the few that know how to set themselves apart?

I just can't imagine that every farmer out there is on the brink of bankruptcy and failure!


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

I wouldn't go deer or buffalo. Lots more money in fences and there doesn't seem to be the profit people thought. Most of them are gettting out of buffalo around here.

What are you interested in? That's the important question.

There are easier ways to make money thats for sure.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

As much as I hate to say it, I think the Joel Salatin model of several small, complimentary, overlapping enterprises is the way to be most profitable on 87 acres.

One specific suggestion: duck eggs.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Is farming like running your own business? Lots of people fail, but those that succeed are the few that know how to set themselves apart?

I just can't imagine that every farmer out there is on the brink of bankruptcy and failure![/quote]

What farmers are you talking too? Yes farming is excally running your own business. Dont talk to the farmers that are in the coffee shop everyday. Instead of working hard and smart everyday they are in town talking and or complaining how tough things are. Of course the ones you should talk to will be hard to get a hold off cause they are busy.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

zandstrafarms said:


> Yes we could graze it.
> Problem is, everyone we talk to says there's no money in it. No money in cattle, no money in buffalo, no money in deer, no money in horse boarding, no money in farming anything
> 
> Is farming like running your own business? Lots of people fail, but those that succeed are the few that know how to set themselves apart?
> ...


We all know that each item changes.. with supply demand and any other world issue that comes about... on a smaller acreage you need to micro mange very close.. I personally prefer quality vs quantity at this point .. I have nothing against a larger scale operation . but I'am totally against the mega farms .. cattle are making money right now with a bright future ahead of them of a few yrs. but things are known to change with 1 simple report... That's the thrill of farming... I farm to make a living not to get rich but when I need a job to support my farm .. I try to look at what I could do to improve the income level .. Don't get me wrong . some of my income comes from custom work of labor for other farmers... I has taken me many yrs to get the quality of my cow herd to support this farm and Most of my eggs are in 1 basket so I could end up be'n the grumpy old greeter @ your local Wally World before the sand runs out of my hour glass.. Morel of the story nothing wrong with a extra job and alot of Blood Sweat and Tears.. stay positive stay focused, and belive in God's will and it will work also you are a member of the most sensible Ag forum there is with alot of good people here willing to help... surround your self with their knowledge and advice ... And you will do just fine


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

hog987 said:


> What farmers are you talking too? Yes farming is excally running your own business. Dont talk to the farmers that are in the coffee shop everyday. Instead of working hard and smart everyday they are in town talking and or complaining how tough things are. Of course the ones you should talk to will be hard to get a hold off cause they are busy.


Maybe those are the guys who are working smarter? If you don't have time to stop for coffee, you're doing something wrong. Life isn't about working 24 hours per day.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Maybe those are the guys who are working smarter? If you don't have time to stop for coffee, you're doing something wrong. Life isn't about working 24 hours per day.


I should have been more clear. Nothing wrong with stopping for coffee. Maybe its a local thing here. Guys having coffee anywhere from 2-6 hours per day. Talk about how hard they work and how nothing works out. The only hard working people in that crowd is their wives. The woman work to support their husbands doomed farm and the coffee hobby.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> Maybe those are the guys who are working smarter? If you don't have time to stop for coffee, you're doing something wrong. Life isn't about working 24 hours per day.


Back in the day long before Al Gore's interweb.. When I started farming living in town in sin ... I stop a the coffee shop as much as possible on the way to the farm.. I learned a lot from most of the farmers in there .. it didn't take long to figure out who was who in there .. the BS 'ers were easy to pick out.. the 1's that knew something would wait for you to ask a question and they would be the last to reply with a answer... If you think about it Haytalk is just 1 big nation wide 24/7 coffee shop with great customers


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

hog987 said:


> I should have been more clear. Nothing wrong with stopping for coffee. Maybe its a local thing here. Guys having coffee anywhere from 2-6 hours per day. Talk about how hard they work and how nothing works out. The only hard working people in that crowd is their wives. The woman work to support their husbands doomed farm and the coffee hobby.


You will find that any where in the world.. most are called liberals. Hell we got one in the White house right now....


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

zandstrafarms said:


> Erik has a very profitable day job, which has allowed us to pay everything in cash. However his job is very stressful and most weeks works 60+ hrs. he'd much rather be mostly self sustaining off the land and work part time!


Don't assume that being self sustained off the land will not be stressful. Farming, ranching, agriculture in general can be one of the most stressful occupations there is. Chances are to make it profitable (especially for a large family), 60+ hours a week would be a light work week. Granted you may have a homegrown labor force for a while, but that labor will be growing up and possibly going different directions. There may not be any extra time for Erik's part time work.

A profitable but stressful day job with a small part time "farming" operation to provide relief from the day job, may be much more enjoyable than a full time (+) self sustained "farming" operation. Especially when you start to miss the reliable profit from the day job.

I would suggest to keep the day job and start small into your land based "farming" venture. Give it a while, 5+ years even, to see how it suits you, before you jump into the deep end.


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

It is very encouraging being on here. I aporeciate all the wisdom.

Similar to Walmart we have meijer which is heck of a lot better! But yes it's full of all the old farmers and their wives. That's why I was getting pretty bummed.

Back in the day, my grandpa was one of the top dairy farmers in the state. Made millions of dollars supposedly, but a farm accident forced him to sell off everything. Must have done well as neither he nor my grandma ever worked. He died before we bought the farm(90 years young), and my grandma was never allowed into the business end of the farming, so not much helpful wisdom to draw from 

However I think I have a great great uncle who still runs a farm and lives around the corner. I might see if he has any helpful advice.

I definitely loved making syrup! Would need better equipment though!

I really don't think my heart is into lots of horse boarding, lol.

I wouldn't mind raising and butchering cows. I do all our game deer. Would need bigger freezer/fridge though!

I do not want to be a crop farmer. Hay and sweetcorn is my limit


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Any venture can be profitable - 1/2 acre, 5 acres, 500 acres, 5000 acres. Don't spend more than you make.

Those that say there is no money in farming (or anything else) just keep doing the same thing over and over and for some reason expect different results. There are a lot of farmers who love to complain but aren't willing to do anything about it. They wake up every morning looking for some way to be the victim. Stay clear from them.

If you are going the grazing route I'd suggest reading anything by or about Gordon Hazard. Jim Gerrish and Gary Zimmer are also excellent resources.

Don't be afraid to be different from your neighbor.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

Welcome to Hay Talk.

You've come to the right place for good information from a lot of different life experiences.

As has been said before, 60+ hour work weeks farming for us would be leisurely. Of course it is our lifestyle as well as our "work". It's tough, but the off farm job hours could very well be a necessary part of farming until you find your niche. Don't be discouraged but realistically there are challenges that you're finding.

One thing I'll caution is about taking on much debt (not going the debt is bad thought here) but be very careful there.

Just wondering, is you home on the land or do you 'commute' to the farm?

What farm equipment do you have to work with?

Baling small squares of hay without appropriate storage or customers that you can stake your crop on to pick up out of the field tops off the challenges of growing and harvesting the crop.

Wish there was a simple answer to what would work but there isn't; BUT if it is what you'all want to do, take it slow, enjoy every part -- rejoice in the successes and learn from the things that didn't work out as thought.

Look forward to hearing about your efforts.

Shelia


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

We live on the property, which makes it hard since roughly 20 acres is house, barn, horse pastures, driveways, garden and front hay field, lol.

Drive a John deer 5410, ag tires, 4 wheel drive, bucket loader, backhoe attachment, forklift, 6ft tiller, 6ft box blade, 12 in auger, international harvester 4 row corn planter, John deer haybine, sickle bar mower, bar hay rake (can't recall maker) and a new Holland baler (old square baler).

The jd haybine we just got, so we will see how I do with it!


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

zandstrafarms said:


> Yes we could graze it.
> Problem is, everyone we talk to says there's no money in it. No money in cattle, no money in buffalo, no money in deer, no money in horse boarding, no money in farming anything
> Is farming like running your own business? Lots of people fail, but those that succeed are the few that know how to set themselves apart?
> I just can't imagine that every farmer out there is on the brink of bankruptcy and failure!


Those who say there is no money in farming don't have the passion for farming


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Bgriffin856 said:


> Those who say there is no money in farming don't have the passion for farming


Or a good enough day job to put it there.

Once you find your niche' it will be easier, but that may take a while.

It can be tough to start from scratch and build a business. My wife and I did just that. We bought bare ground and built up from there. The capital investment in machinery can be staggering, and for our operation we could not have done it and wouldn't continue to do it without off farm income. It is just the nature of the path that we chose to take. There will come a day that the off farm income won't be as important or necessary but that day is pretty far off. The value for us is the lifestyle that we have chosen to lead.

It is difficult when you are to large to be what John Deere considers "Lifestyle farmers", yet to small to depend solely on farm income. You will have more success with a larger demographic and more natural resources than we have to work with, and I think that you will do fine.

Welcome to Haytalk.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

I'd definitely put living on the farm in the plus category. Actually "living" on the farm for just that itself. You can keep an eye on things and do little things along that wouldn't get done if you just "went" to the land. It is first and foremost 'home' with opportunities for the business part.

You've got equipment to work with -- another good start.

Until you can get the farm into whatever your venture becomes, would a small recreational area be a possibility? Park like area where families or small select groups come to enjoy the great outdoors, maybe place for weddings -- that type thing. Insurance would be a consideration but manual labor could be biggest investment there.

Shelia


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

zandstrafarms said:


> It is very encouraging being on here. I aporeciate all the wisdom.
> Similar to Walmart we have meijer which is heck of a lot better! But yes it's full of all the old farmers and their wives. That's why I was getting pretty bummed.
> Back in the day, my grandpa was one of the top dairy farmers in the state. Made millions of dollars supposedly, but a farm accident forced him to sell off everything. Must have done well as neither he nor my grandma ever worked. He died before we bought the farm(90 years young), and my grandma was never allowed into the business end of the farming, so not much helpful wisdom to draw from
> However I think I have a great great uncle who still runs a farm and lives around the corner. I might see if he has any helpful advice.
> ...


I was out looking at a used gooseneck trailer on a farm where they raised game deer. Their daughter got charged by a buck with a full rack and it killed her. Be careful around those things, especially if you have kids in there with you.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

With a lot of the get rich exotic animals the only people getting rich are the ones selling breeding stock.It takes forever to recoup your $$ if you pay to much for your stock.Like everything they have price cycles with all the hoopla about raiseing them and getting rich the price goes sky high then by time you have some ready to sell the price is crap.

On a per acre basis there is more $ in vegtables then most things,but a lot of work.There sure is not much $ in selling sm sq bales for $2 a bale.


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## Bishop (Apr 6, 2015)

zandstrafarms said:


> Is farming like running your own business? Lots of people fail, but those that succeed are the few that know how to set themselves apart?
> 
> I just can't imagine that every farmer out there is on the brink of bankruptcy and failure!


There are a lot of factors involved in making a farm profitable. From my own experience, I've come to appreciate the sheer amount of stuff one needs to purchase to run a farm, and the amount of time and labour to make things go well.

I grew up on a dairy farm, and when my dad passed away young (57), my mom decided to have an auction and sell all the equipment, since none of us kids wanted to farm at the time.

My wife and I ended up renting the farm (65+ acres), and eventually buying it.

One day I had the bright idea that we should farm it ourselves, but with no equipment we needed to buy everything.

We looked at our property and decided to focus on: 3 acres of outdoor cut flowers, 35 head of sheep and goats, and corn/wheat/soybeans/hay. We went this route because we needed to get into something at a low cost, and grow something fast that was profitable. Flowers are almost all manual labour and high profit. Sheep and goats will fill a barn faster than cattle (5 month gestation and usually twins). Hay I had made since I was knee high to an alfalfa plant growing up so it was familiar, and the equipment was reasonable. Cash crops you can hire out the work to be done (tillage, seeding, etc) as you slowly buy your own equipment.

We also decided to move in the direction of things my wife could do, since she was home and I work 10 months out of the year. Goats and sheep are easier to get up after going down than a cow. So we tried to design everything around her ability to get work done, and my ability to work on the farm only during July and August.

I estimate that in order to farm our acreage, we have spent about $100,000 over the last ten years to purchase animals and equipment big and small, everything from gates to tractors, tillage equipment, electric fence, breeder livestock, etc. Luckily most of the items I needed were readily available and cheap, since everyone is going big you can get a 12' cultivator for about $500.

We are now "done" buying stuff. We are now beginning to repair/replace things. This is a much nicer place to be in. We did not become profitable until year 7, and this was by design. We knew going in that we would need to invest all our money back into the farm to get to the level we needed to be at.

My advice: Look at your available equipment, look at your land, look at your available time and get started on something that will return on your first year at least enough to cover operating expenses.

Eggs/chickens and vegetables are both excellent starting points. Fast return. No emotional attachment (ie if a chicken dies, it is less stressful than a cow).

Good luck. Hope this helps a bit.

BTW: Things we got for free-ish (ie things that were there when we bought the farm): A large barn, a pond, a machine shed, one 65HP tractor. All of these things sort of came with the farm when we bought it. This helped a lot. As well the neighbours on each side we extremely helpful getting us going.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

swmnhay said:


> With a lot of the get rich exotic animals the only people getting rich are the ones selling breeding stock.It takes forever to recoup your $$ if you pay to much for your stock.Like everything they have price cycles with all the hoopla about raiseing them and getting rich the price goes sky high then by time you have some ready to sell the price is crap.
> 
> On a per acre basis there is more $ in vegtables then most things,but a lot of work.There sure is not much $ in selling sm sq bales for $2 a bale.


swmnhay is right on track...the exotic livestock is something to stay away from.. once you own them and find the fad has passed.. you are stuck with them..cattle pigs goats sheep even the hay burners are a safe bet.. vegetables are ALWAYS in a big demand.. farmers markets are a booming business.. the Non GMO is here to stay .. I think


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## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

All very good advice!

I also appreciate the detailed history of what you guys did and how it worked in the long run.

I would not trade this lifestyle for antthing. My husband thinks I'm nuts being out in the -20 weather during winter, but you gotta feed the critters, run water and plow the driveway. Long as I've got 3 pair pants plus snow pants I'll stay warm!

I had not thought much about flowers, I think veggies could be great.

I had thought of park stuff, maybe paid horse trails. Also horse camping with paddocks for overnight use, maybe small 1 room cabins with hiking or mtn biking for tourists.

Another idea is a farmers market hosted in our front hay field. Neither of our two closest cities have one. Closest one is 20 min away. I've run into people who do stuff like making fiber yarn or craft stuff, even organic veggies and have no place close to sell at.

Additinalky, no one local sell sweet corn. Oddly enough a guy 1 hr north of here trucks it all in, or its imported out of state.. so that would be a good one too.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

Big thing is what can you retail directly? Figure that out first, then figure out of what there is a retail market for what can you grow?

My brother, my father and I all run farms. And work full time. Its quite a leap to make farm only especially around here. I've been investing it all back into the farm for 8 years and I'm almost to the point I can make the leap. But only because the wife works full time as well.

I do hay, sell squares to horse people and feed rounds to the cows. Have a small beef herd of 12 brood cows, and sell the meat as 1/4s and halves. And am expanding the maple operation from 500 to 1500 taps this spring. But like I said it doesn't happen overnight and we are still getting a lot of off the farm income and medical insurance.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

the Farmers Market would give you a place to sell whatever you grow; some profit from booth rental; and a really good chance to hear what customers are looking for that they aren't being able to get

Shelia


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

How close are you to some bigger metro areas? Vegetables and cut flowers are a logical choice for a small operation. Not just for farmers market but to wholesale to healthfood type stores. Many of them try to source locally as much as possible. You already pretty much have the equipment you need to do these types of operations, but would likely need to add a high tunnel

Goats are growing huge, both for meat/milk and for the 4-H project market. With your are, you could also look at orchards/berries for a u-pick operation if you have a decent sized population center close, or if the area is a big tourist draw. A lot of the small operations that do u-pick will also add hay rides, petting zoos, corn mazes (in the fall), etc. as activities tied to harvest.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Bees are hot too. Local honey seems to have some staying power. And bees take up essentially zero space.


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