# Limestone Quality and Soil pH Duration



## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Fine limestone is known to more rapidly increase soil pH. However, the duration of that rapid pH increase is sometimes misunderstood by some scientists and producers as well. The following graph illustrates that the long-term effect of the increased pH in soil due to ECCE 100% limestone (fine limestone) compared to ECCE 62% limestone (coarse limestone).

The graph illustrates that ECCE 100% limestone maintained a higher pH seven years following the last treatment, regardless of the rate of limestone applied. It is also noteworthy that the 3 ton/acre rate of ECCE 100% limestone maintained pH nearly as high as did the 6 ton/acre rate of the ECCE 62% limestone.

Why did the finer limestone maintain soil pH higher than did the coarser limestone? Because the finer limestone raised pH to a higher level than did the coarser limestone which has particles too large to be effective in changing soil pH.

http://i936.photobucket.com/albums/ad201/vandrewhaby/LimeECCEvsTime%20on%20pH_002_zpseyayq32i.png

Vincent


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

So, does the ECCE info come from the mine, or where? So far I'm having a challenge getting the info from my supplier. It is finely ground dolomitic, but I haven't been able to get a number so far.

Vincent, thanks so much for your help with understanding these things. In the study you refer to, was the limestone from the same mine/area, and just ground differently?

Thanks.

Reed


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We have bought stack dust from The Kilns at the local Quarry and because it's not a regular product it is kind of a byproduct, they sent it out to one of the local Lads that does soil testing and you get an analasis back. As said before you have to be very careful what you buy the screenings a different by products from the limestones stone quarry , some just won't do you any good.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

reede said:


> So, does the ECCE info come from the mine, or where? So far I'm having a challenge getting the info from my supplier. It is finely ground dolomitic, but I haven't been able to get a number so far.
> 
> Vincent, thanks so much for your help with understanding these things. In the study you refer to, was the limestone from the same mine/area, and just ground differently?
> 
> ...


Reed,

Yes, both limestones were from the same quarry. The ECCE 62% was the normal ground limestone screened as fine as it could be. The ECCE 100% was produced by washing the fines from the ground limestone and settling these in a pit. When the pit was full and the water drained out of the pit, the fines are removed, dried under cover to about 7 - 9 percent moisture and then sold to distributors who haul it in covered trailers to the field where it is spread. The larger particles remaining after washing are used as base material for residential concrete slabs in an area devoid of sand and having high shrink swell clay soil, such as in Hay Wilson's region of Texas.

The ECCE percentage is a product of a screen analysis to determine a range of particle sizes (explained in a previous post on HT a couple of years ago) and the percentage calcium carbonate in the actual limestone. Example, if 100% of the crushed limestone passes a 60-mesh screen and it is 100% calcium carbonate, the ECCE will be 100%. As less material passes the 60-mesh screen, and/or the percent calcium carbonate declines, the ECCE percentage declines.

You may have to request that your limestone quarry sample their material and have it analyzed by a university soil testing lab. They should be able to chemically analyze the limestone for calcium carbonate content and do a screen test do determine the amounts passing 8-, 20-, and 60-mesh screens. Limestone remaining on the 8-mesh screen is considered to have no liming value. That passing an 8- but remaining on a 20-mesh screen is considered to be 20% effective for neutralizing soil acidity. Material passing a 20- but remaining on a 60-mesh screen is considered to be 60% effective. Limestone passing a 60-mesh screen is considered to be 100% effective for neutralizing soil acidity.

Your limestone quarry should be able to tell you the calcium carbonate percentage. Then, when you grab a handful of limestone from the spreader truck, if it feels somewhat like talcum powder and has a calcium and magnesium carbonate content near 100%, it should have a very high ECCE.


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## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Vhaby for the information,over here in this part of east texas we just cant get the good powder kind of lime it always has the big particle sizes but isnt lime "calcium" and if you applied more calcium will that help? And sulphur, I get the liquid fertilizer (true fertilizer not that foiliar feed stuff) out of louisiana and they add a little sulphur to it and isnt that supposed to help the ph or just keep it from going down from applying the nitrogen? I am looking at other alternatives because seems like putting out lime just doesnt help much anymore and what you said does make sense. Thanks


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

Most sulfur sources seem to drop pH. Gypsum is one exception, doesn't lower pH, and the sulfate will tie up free aluminum which comes with acidic soils. Good source of Ca as well.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

nhbaler282 said:


> Thanks Vhaby for the information,over here in this part of east texas we just cant get the good powder kind of lime it always has the big particle sizes but isnt lime "calcium" and if you applied more calcium will that help? And sulphur, I get the liquid fertilizer (true fertilizer not that foiliar feed stuff) out of louisiana and they add a little sulphur to it and isnt that supposed to help the ph or just keep it from going down from applying the nitrogen? I am looking at other alternatives because seems like putting out lime just doesnt help much anymore and what you said does make sense. Thanks


Reede is correct that adding elemental sulfur to soil lowers pH. Elemental sulfur must be oxidized to the sulfate form before plants can take it up. In the conversion from elemental sulfur to sulfate, acidity is produced. Gypsum is a good source of sulfur that already is in the sulfate form, but it may not be easily available for you to purchase and get applied, and the gypsum takes time to dissolve. Another source of sulfur is KMag, or potassium magnesium sulfate. In KMag, the sulfur also is in the sulfate form, is quite soluble, and is readily available for plant uptake. Your fertilizer dealer should be able to get KMag rather easily, but it is more expensive than gypsum.

I don't know how far east of the Tyler area your place is, but it is more likely your fertilizer dealer doesn't want to handle the fine limestone and therefore he tells you he can't get it. If you are in east Texas and only a short distance from the limestone quarries in Oklahoma, I can understand a dealer not wanting to get the fine limestone from Nolanville or Georgetown.

Yes you can apply more of the coarser limestone than the fine material and get a similar pH change. If you divide the ECCE % of the coarse limestone into 100% (fine limestone ECCE), the result is the amount in tons additional limestone you need to apply to approximate the same result as with applying the ECCE 100% limestone. So, if your recommended rate of limestone is 2 tons of ECCE (100%) and the ECCE % of the limestone that you can get is 60, you would need to apply 1.67 x 2 tons/ac, or 3.3 tons of the ECCE 60% limestone. Having to use the coarser limestone becomes much more expensive.


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## bluefarmer (Oct 10, 2010)

nhbaler282 said:


> Thanks Vhaby for the information,over here in this part of east texas we just cant get the good powder kind of lime it always has the big particle sizes but isnt lime "calcium" and if you applied more calcium will that help? And sulphur, I get the liquid fertilizer (true fertilizer not that foiliar feed stuff) out of louisiana and they add a little sulphur to it and isnt that supposed to help the ph or just keep it from going down from applying the nitrogen? I am looking at other alternatives because seems like putting out lime just doesnt help much anymore and what you said does make sense. Thanks


True liquid fertilizer??


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Like 10-34-0 or 32-0-0...not diluted for foliar application.


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## nhbaler282 (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks,vhaby I live in carthage,Tx and yes 3 tons per acre is a little too cost effective,I was wondering about trying some of that liquid calcium that they advertise may do a test plot on it and see if it really works. The true liquid fertilizer is 15-5-10 and that formula is close to what bermuda grass takes away from the soil the 4-1-3 ratio and it is real fertilize not the foliar feed stuff and also we get a 30-0-0-2 which is a good source of nitrogen,if you are ever in carthage stop by and visit and I will show you some of my bermuda grass strips for experiments. www.rosshayandsprigsfarm.com


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

vhaby said:


> Reede is correct that adding elemental sulfur to soil lowers pH. Elemental sulfur must be oxidized to the sulfate form before plants can take it up. In the conversion from elemental sulfur to sulfate, acidity is produced. Gypsum is a good source of sulfur that already is in the sulfate form, but it may not be easily available for you to purchase and get applied, and the gypsum takes time to dissolve. Another source of sulfur is KMag, or potassium magnesium sulfate. In KMag, the sulfur also is in the sulfate form, is quite soluble, and is readily available for plant uptake. Your fertilizer dealer should be able to get KMag rather easily, but it is more expensive than gypsum.
> 
> I don't know how far east of the Tyler area your place is, but it is more likely your fertilizer dealer doesn't want to handle the fine limestone and therefore he tells you he can't get it. If you are in east Texas and only a short distance from the limestone quarries in Oklahoma, I can understand a dealer not wanting to get the fine limestone from Nolanville or Georgetown.
> 
> Yes you can apply more of the coarser limestone than the fine material and get a similar pH change. If you divide the ECCE % of the coarse limestone into 100% (fine limestone ECCE), the result is the amount in tons additional limestone you need to apply to approximate the same result as with applying the ECCE 100% limestone. So, if your recommended rate of limestone is 2 tons of ECCE (100%) and the ECCE % of the limestone that you can get is 60, you would need to apply 1.67 x 2 tons/ac, or 3.3 tons of the ECCE 60% limestone. Having to use the coarser limestone becomes much more expensive.


 You can do the math and just apply more of the courser limestone, but if it is courser it would do the job but it would take years longer for the pH to be corrected,. If you need lime the big thing is getting the problem corrected as soon as possible. I would love to hear that the liquid calcium would work. We spend a lot of money on lime. Huge trucks traveling an hour or more each way. And then spending an hour or more to apply it. This will always be a big ticket item


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> You can do the math and just apply more of the courser limestone, but if it is courser it would do the job but it would take years longer for the pH to be corrected,. If you need lime the big thing is getting the problem corrected as soon as possible. I would love to hear that the liquid calcium would work. We spend a lot of money on lime. Huge trucks traveling an hour or more each way. And then spending an hour or more to apply it. This will always be a big ticket item


Hey Endrow,

Have you ever considered mushroom compost?

One of the top reasons for using it is it can eliminate the need for lime.

Heres the nutrient analysis.

http://www.mushroomcompost.org/files/theme/NPK2(1).pdf

Heres the website:

http://www.mushroomcompost.org/


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