# Is alfalfa/hay a good way to pay off land?



## DrReaper (Apr 29, 2016)

I am in the process of moving to Idaho. I see a lot of pivot water systems and alfalfa growing all around. I expect people are doing it because it makes money. I am planning to buy land after I fix up the house I just purchased. My question is on the economics of growing alfalfa to pay back the expense of the land. First off I plan to pay cash for the land, how much I get is another matter. I hope to negotiate my way into ten to twenty acres with proven water and good sun exposure.

I have not planned out expenses for a pivot watering system. It looks like everyone has one of these. I would expect you would need a way to cut the alfalfa, a way to bail it, and store it for sale.

How much currency will I need to get a start at this excluding land? Through my research I have also found different levels of quality of alfalfa. I expect that has to do with the soil, preparation, and weather. I have so many questions but I will just end here for now and see what comes from this exploration post.

My ultimate goal is to pay back my investment in land and equipment, then start a permaculture design on the land with aggro forestry , bushes, and shrubs, animals and strip grazing.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Ten to twenty acres, a center pivot, and equipment would make it difficult to see a return anytime soon.
The learning curve is significant as it regards putting up hay.
Welcome to Haytalk.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Do a internship one spring summer and fall on a irrigated growers place and see first hand what all is involved....it might make you want to consider something else....or if you really do have the forage bug then you will know a whole lot more about the industry.

Regards, Mike


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## NebTrac (Aug 12, 2014)

I would for sure investigate your irrigation. I believe there are less expensive alternatives for small acreages than a pivot. Most pivots are set up to water from 80-120+ acres. There is one about a mile from where I sit that is a half mile long and irrigates over 300 acres.

SideRoll (Wheel Lines) or tow lines might work better for you. Like Mike said, working for a summer on a hay farm is a great way to learn the ropes and see what's involved.

Troy


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Most places in The Intermountain West can grow 5 tons of alfalfa per acre per year. At $200 per ton, this is $1000 per year per acre GROSS income. If the area you are moving to has a 160 + day growing season, if the soil is good and the water has little salt, then 8 tons might be possible, which is $1600 per acre GROSS income. To really make it all work, and to make a good living growing alfalfa, (or any other crop) you will need 200 + acres and a few hundred thousand bucks and good credit to get started. This is unfortunate, but the reality. Good farm land in 100 + acre tracts in the West with solid water rights is really hard to get, really hard.

As far as a pivot goes, a wheel line is far, far cheaper and is much more efficient. 20 acres with a wheel line is easy. A wheel line will cover a square or rectangle, a pivot makes a circle. Land is sold in rectangles or squares. Pivots are great if you have hundreds of acres.

Now, 10 to 20 acres in alfalfa will not make you a living. Assuming you have an incredible depth of knowledge of alfalfa, and assuming all of the 20 acres was given to you, and assuming John Deere gave you a quarter million dollars in new equipment, you could make $20,000 per year.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

He's probably looking for 20k acre acre plot now......

Do like me some Idaho potatoes tho......
Welcome to haytalk


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm not going to say that 20 acres of alfalfa will pay off the land any time soon but if you are already buying property and have the desire/interest to farm a little on the side if you do things right it is possible to make some money off of 20 acres of alfalfa.

My knowledge of irrigation is rather limited but a center pivot would be way overkill on 20 acres and a good bit of it would not get watered due to the corners unless it is a round field.....most center pivot circles in the west are about 125 acres I think. For 20 acres wheel lines sound like a good idea.

You don't need to buy a quarter million dollars of equipment to farm 20 acres......while you certainly could easily spend that much you don't need to. I would say a sickle haybine, v rake, square baler, 70-100 hp tractor....let your pocketbook be your guide. You will also need a way to pick the bales up.....in your location I might suggest a used pull type bale wagon. An accumulator and grapple would also work but you would need a loader on the tractor as well or a skid steer. Don't forget dry storage! Unless you can hire planting done in your area you would need some tillage equipment and a seeder/drill to plant the alfalfa.

The most difficult thing will be the learning curve of making quality hay.....it is terribly steep and the weather is always an issue but in your more arid climate rained on hay will be less of a problem than here in the east. Like has already been said if you have never made hay before it would be wise to help someone out for a season to see if it's really for you and get the hang of how it's done.


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## DrReaper (Apr 29, 2016)

Thanks for all the advice. I am pretty well off right now. The house is paid for except for repairs. I have some cash for land as well. However I do need to start making money soon to pay for expenses. I am still in the planning stages. I will see what turns up on the land market over the next couple of months. I need to repair the house. It will be a duplex when I get done with it.

It's looking like the alfalfa game is for big players. I may build a permaculture farm and pay it back in food and animals.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I don't mean to burst your bubble. You won't be able to put very many animals on 20 acres either. I do know that all the hydro ponic / hot house / high tunnel vegetable farms around here only lasted a couple seasons. Might be different in Idaho. You mentioned being pretty well off. In that case, do what you enjoy doing with your 20 acres and don't stress the payback. To be completely honest with you I love making hay. I really do.Damn near unhealthy how much I enjoy it. If I won the lottery ID give the hay away. Really would. I loathe marketing. I can't stand going through the same spiel over and over on the phone citing precisely what was in the ad. Kinda went down the rabbit trail, sorry. Enjoy your land , learn as much as you can from this site and others, and best of luck to you in your endeavors.


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## DrReaper (Apr 29, 2016)

Well it seems people just don't like the amount of land I am looking at. I will see if there are bigger parcels available. I will also ask around and see what people are doing as I settle in.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

DrReaper said:


> Well it seems people just don't like the amount of land I am looking at. I will see if there are bigger parcels available. I will also ask around and see what people are doing as I settle in.


Up to a point, it takes the same equipment to do 20 acres of hay as it does to do...say 100? acres of hay; therefore, more of the gross profit is needed from each acre to pay off 20 than is needed from each acre of 100 (not taking into consideration that the 100 acres will wear out the equip faster than 20).

And hillside is right on the money, also. If the enjoyment is there for hay making or you just have OWDS (Oliver Wendell Douglas Syndrome) as many of us have, have a secondary income, and have cheap taste in used equipment, the twenty COULD pay for itself eventually. If not pay for itself quickly, it should be able to pull its own weight if you don't buy 500 acre equipment to do 20 acres. Basically, the land can pay for itself but it may struggle with the equipment/toy payments.

73, Mark


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Reaper,

I didn't want to discourage you but a hard dose of reality is sometimes needed. If you like to do this type of thing, then do it. I have a little patch of alfalfa that is the best hobby I could hope for. I would rather have a hay field than a new Ferrari or private jet. Nothing connects you to reality like a piece of land that grows things for animals and people.

"Let us not forget that the cultivation of the earth is the most important labor of man. When tillage begins, other arts follow. The farmers, therefore, are the founders of civilization." Daniel Webster


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Permaculture is another animal altogether. I assume that you are following the Jeff Lawton theories. My knowledge of the topic is minimal, but I understand the basics. A friend of mine is neck deep in it.
There is much truth on the statement that it takes the same equipment to farm 50 acres as 500. It is a catch 22 in many regards. Cheap equipment will bring many headaches and expensive equipment will ensure you don't turn much profit.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I wouldn't say that cheap equipment necessarily brings headaches. Certainly it's not as easy as running down to the dealer and signing some papers and being the first one to break that new machine. You have to know where the wear points are make good decisions at auctions and personal sales. A lot of people get into hay, buy new equipment, can't cash flow it and have to sell. Personally speaking I have less than 60k in a 200 acre operation. Sure there is a lot of preventive maintenance but not really any more than you would have on a new machine. Take my 455 planter for instance.I can rebuild the whole thing for less than the cost of one early riser row unit. Plus you can learn a tremendous amount about your equipment by going through and replacing a couple bearings. 20 acres is a good start. You thinking about asparagus at all? Getting hard to find nice tender shoots around here. Sorry another rabbit trail. I have the attention span of my hound dog.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Also look into apples, pears, cherries, etc. An acre of apples can gross $30,000 or more per year in sales. With the new rootstocks, an apple orchard can be in production in three years. If your new place is near a population center, an "organic" farm is a thought. Also, a roadside farmers market, where you sell your own production and rent space on the weekends to other growers. "Pick your own," is another option. Travel around and see what others are doing.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cheap equipment will often bring stressful headaches.....and new equipment quite often will bring stressful heartaches.....best to stay in the middle of the road with sound judgement, longevity, and moderation.

Regards, Mike


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## DrReaper (Apr 29, 2016)

I follow Geoff Lawton and passed the Permaculture Design Course. I am a certified Permaculture Designer. One of the main Permaculture theories is the only thing that can safely leave your land, and still be sustainable is something that can walk off of it. When I look at Hay I am thinking its mostly sunlight, something like 90%, maybe more. I would give up some sustainability to pay back the land in the beginning. I will also need to know about growing Hay in the long run so it would be educational. Orchards, shrubs, bushes, vines and gardens are also super important and need to get going. Orchards of course the sooner the better.

On a humors note, when traveling I like to read the historical signs. Twenty minutes from where the new house is. It says the indigenous people had orchards and it was one of the main supply's of food. In the time I have been their I am hard pressed to find a single orchard. Everyone is running a water line and raising hay.

I am loading stuff to go back to Idaho today so I better get at it. Cheers


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

DrReaper said:


> Everyone is running a water line and raising hay.


All the more reason to seek other alternatives.

Regards, Mike


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Lets just say that if it was easy everyone would be doing it. Don't expect the numbers you crunch on paper to be your real returns until you come out of the learning curve and lose some money along the way. With that said, good luck and godspeed! I started in the business at 17 with lots of nay sayers and have learned enough to write a book since then.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

DrReaper, maybe you can look at rent/leasing the ground to a neighbor farmer or hiring some of the haying operation to a custom operator. This would allow you to accumulate equipment, like most of us probably have done over the years. Along with the internship, this could go a long way to the 'learning curve' FarmerCline mentions.

Hillside Hay, the tender asparagus shoots are just starting (dang you and your rabbit holes anyhow).


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

DrReaper said:


> Well it seems people just don't like the amount of land I am looking at. I will see if there are bigger parcels available. I will also ask around and see what people are doing as I settle in.


The economies of scale are such that unless you have a least 50 acres it would be impossible to pay off the equipment needed in a relatively short time and that's without being too extravagant. You'll have to produce "quality" to compete and that means small squares with all the equipt that goes with it. Small square will give the highest return, but require the most handling. Now if you do it for enjoyment then go at it !!! I wouldn't trade the happiness I get out of making "good" hay for anything, no feeling can be compared to what you get with a full maw of hay


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