# testing protein and tdn in hay



## c09farms (Jun 21, 2009)

Just starting a small cow calf farm. I've read a lot about what protein and total digestive nutrient (tdn) a cow(dry lactating calf bull) needs to get out of the hay you give them. Yet all the farmers act like I'm crazy for asking proof of their hay being tested. This will save all cow, horse, goat, sheep farmers a lot of money in feed cost, if we demand this proof.
Thanks


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

c09farms said:


> ...all the farmers act like I'm crazy for asking proof of their hay being tested. This will save all cow, horse, goat, sheep farmers a lot of money in feed cost, if we demand this proof.


IMO a test is nothing more than a tiny core sample that is intended to represent...or misrepresent...a batch of hay. IMO, the only way to get an accurate test is to test several bales on the load. Who is going to pay for that?

When you're given a test from a seller, you should take that with a grain of salt anyway. He may have baled a few good bales, tested them and is using that test result to sell his other 10,000 bales under false pretenses. Even the most reputable sellers may have trouble getting an accurate test due to variations in the type of hay in one part of the field to another. If I test a few bales and fax you the results and then you test different bales with different results, you may be upset with me thinking that I attempted to pull one over on you. Many farmers know this and don't even ask for a test. If they are interested in a test, they test it themselves.

IMO, you are far better served by inspecting the hay yourself using your eyes and nose. Cut a bale open to see if there is any mold or caramelizing. Take core samples of other bales and look at them. Just by looking, you can how much alfalfa is there, if it was in bud or flower, if the stalks are coarse and hard, if it is soft and fine, if it's had a lot of rain on it, if the leaves are still there etc etc. All of this will tell you the same as a test.

And unless it's complete junk and you were obviously lied to, be very careful about rejecting a load. If he is a reputable seller, he will try to make it right with you, but if you reject it, he will never sell you another load again. And next year may be a drought.

Just my $.02.


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## ecofarmer (May 29, 2009)

So when I cut 300 acres of my alfalfa mix and take 30 or so core test form my better places, send in what I think will be the best 20, and show you the best 10 I get back it will make it all better some how?

It's the buyer's job to be able to look, touch, smell, listen, and taste it if needed. You need to take your own core samples out of random bails. The cheapest test that a new hay buyer can use is putting a core sample in water; it will give you a better example of what it looked like when it was cut.

You might be better off finding a hay broker or talking to some custom cutters that you think you can trust. A broker will charge you a few bucks a ton but you get there knowledge of how they think the hay is. Talking to some people that do custom work is also a good way to go. When I go to bail a field and know the hay is for sale I will make some calls and do my best to have a few buyers looking at it before I load up my tractors. I have had days that it's sold as I drop the last bail.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

The hay sold to most of the Western Dairies is all sold based on test results.

The grower samples the hay, and sets a price based on the test. The Dairy test the hay for the nutritionest, but also looks at CP & the California TDN. If that TDN is less the dairy balks at the price, if his TDN is better no mention is made to the grower.

We must remember what testing we are paying for. This is not gold assay testing but hay testing. There is a big difference in how much is paid for each type of testing.

Many states have a training program to teach the people who do the sampling just how to get the most uniform representative sample.

For a long time I tested just like I was selling to a dairy, and HERE the buyer is only interested in CP. Most hay buyers HERE just want something that looks like hay and has string around it. 
I now use a lab that only reports CP & TDN as well as a long list of minerals. I use the minerals analysis to track my fertility program. For uniformity I always sample the same bales on the same loads from each field. Every cutting from each field is tested.

At least one Western Hay grower Fed Express or UPS ships some of his samples to one of the major labs that turns out reliable information that works just fine for the Dairy. That is just good customer relations.

The customer sould get what they are willing to pay for. If they want junk hay prices they get junk hay or nothing. If they want hay that the animals eat with enthusiasm and their performance is up where you want it they will pay for that also. 
The thing about a dairy, as compared to meat or recreation animals, is their animal's performance is measured in the tank, every day. 
The really big dairies will feed my annual hay production in one morning. Most of my hay goes off the farm in a pickup truck or 16 ft tandem trailer.

The money is in repeat business.
A good motto. "It is ok to shear a sheep every year, but if you skin him he will never come back."

Here is a sad truth. Most livestock producers do not understand forages. Their animals sure do though.


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## ecofarmer (May 29, 2009)

I wanted to make a point with the first post. It's not how we do it but I posted it that way by the way the question was posted.

Our first cutting we keep 100% of it and we do test for cp and tdn. We drop them off at a collage for testing. We know the test is not perfect but it's good for our cows.

When I cut the small squares of alfalfa we test bail off of each load. We do send them into a better lab. When we sell it we say it's an average of the field was. Asked we will hand over the paperwork for the customer to look at. Most of the horse people around us buy more off what the bail looks like then anything else.

About 80% of our hay goes to the same people every year.


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## c09farms (Jun 21, 2009)

This is why I posted in this forum. I wanted to know is there anyone out there that cares about the animals not the all mighty dollar. I found my answer. I will find other cattle people in my area that care what the animal eats and ask them where to get the best hay for my money. I have grandchildren who I want to know the farm side of life.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

c09farms said:


> This is why I posted in this forum. I wanted to know is there anyone out there that cares about the animals not the all mighty dollar. I found my answer. I will find other cattle people in my area that care what the animal eats and ask them where to get the best hay for my money. I have grandchildren who I want to know the farm side of life.


I suppose a hobby farmer that requires a few bales of hay for the pets, may be able to pick and choose the ultimate bale of hay to feed that day. Dairies....at least the ones that I am aware of...those with cattle numbering in the thousands, seem to agree that the only way to get consistent dry hay suitable for milking cows is to buy irrigated desert alfalfa. And some don't even bother with that. Most feed alfalfa silage. In the words of more than one feed man, "Us try to cure dry hay....are you kidding? We don't have time for that nonsense."

When your neighbors give you the name of a good hay supplier, make sure you ask for the test. Then test it yourself and be sure to call him back and complain that your RFV results were a point lower that his test and you want a refund.

As far as your grandchildren knowing the farm side of life, perhaps they can get a job working alongside illegal Mexicans milking cows 24-7-365.

Seriously though, I think it's good that your are putting forth the effort the effort to teach your grandkids some of the science behind it.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Different climates make for interesting contrast in forage harvesting.

In Idaho and Nevada the cash hay crops are just that hay. It just is not economical to ship silage to California. The silage growers tend to be close to the islands of dairy activity.
There are places that grow alfalfa hay for shipping that the humidity never goes above 50% day or night. At least not during the hay season, unless it rains.

Here we tend to have a wet and humid Spring and a hot & dry Summer, so we seldom can make any blanket statements as to the one best way to put up hay. 100 miles east of here haylage is becoming popular, because of the difficulty of curing hay before the next rain.

Just as interesting is the hoops that hay growers jump through to produce a product acceptable on the in Japan and Korea,


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

Yep. The farms that I know of use every acre to grow their own corn and pure alfalfa, both of which which they put in bunkers and use for TMR. They feed dry grass hay to calves, dry cows and maybe some fresh cows I'm not sure. They are so exact in the nutrient levels that they require, they almost can't use dry hay because there is no consistency from one semi trailer load to the next.


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## Tamara in TN (Jul 29, 2008)

> c09farms said:
> 
> 
> > This is why I posted in this forum. I wanted to know is there anyone out there that cares about the animals not the all mighty dollar. I found my answer. I will find other cattle people in my area that care what the animal eats and ask them where to get the best hay for my money. I have grandchildren who I want to know the farm side of life.


well higher TDN hay should be sold for more than lower TDN hay so the Almighty dollar wins anyway

you'd be better to test your hay however,based on it'd RFV and not TDN....that is so 1980's anyway....

we have a feeding chart on our website that can help you with this and the prices to have a lot of hay tested at Dairy One (the lab we use)is about $16-$20 depending....
production acres horse hay for sale and the go to inventory page

that said...dirty little secrets here....

forage tests can by altered by the boring unit that takes the sample....
the farmer who only cores the best spot(say it ain't so)...
and finally by the labs just not running the tests and just "guessing" at the result....

so tread carefully when you chose your "Good Book" to base all you livestock feeding on....as "The Word" may not be as rock solid as you imagine....it behooves you to eventually educate yourself in the care of your animals and not leave it to some one elses "opinion"

regards
Tamara in TN


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Tamara in TN said:


> the farmer who only cores the best spot(say it ain't so)...
> and finally by the labs just not running the tests and just "guessing" at the result....
> 
> so tread carefully when you chose your "Good Book" to base all you livestock feeding on....as "The Word" may not be as rock solid as you imagine....it behooves you to eventually educate yourself in the care of your animals and not leave it to some one elses "opinion"
> ...


And of course, buyers never, ever pull their samples from the worst part of the bale either.

Heard of a few larger Dairy's doing exactly that^. Find the worst parts of the loads to sample, then dispute the price. When people quit selling to them that quickly ended. Had another older amish fellow that would go from one end of a load to the other, find the absolutely poorest flake in a bale that was other wise a beautiful load, then show it to all the other buyers trying to drive the price down. Once a few sellers started no-selling their loads if that older gentlemen got it, that ended as well.

I haul a lot to the auctions and if somebody does have a forage test with the load very few if any of the amishman or mennonites actually ever look at it. They pull some out, look at it, then bury their face right in the bale and take a good hard sniff. Seen a few go as far as to pull a few stems out and chew on them with the reasoning being that if they can stand to chew on it, the cows will inhale it.

You can pull all the samples you want, but I'm of the personal opinion that the best way to buy hay is to find a reputable producer, built a good relationship with them, and treat them the same way you want to be treated. I sell a lot of hay right out of the barn and turn a lot of folks away as well as I've had less than favorable experiences with them in the past or other farmers in the area have. I've even had one person try to return some round bales once. I absolutely knew they weren't mine as they had green net on them and I never, ever use anything but the white. I don't need those kinda of customer's as I already have plenty of headaches to deal with and don't need to add any.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

I got a laugh out of the "almighty dollar" remark also. After all, that's what stuff like TDN and all the other acronyms were invented for in the first place.....to increase milk production and to generate more money. If anyone _really_ cared about the animals, they'd be out to pasture feeding their calves and we'd all be drinking coconut milk.


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## Tamara in TN (Jul 29, 2008)

> rank said:
> 
> 
> > we'd all be drinking coconut milk.


you forgot joining hands and singing "Kumbya"









Tamara in TN


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## stevemsinger (Jul 8, 2009)

Although I think enough has already been said and I don't know that I can actually add anything new, it does gripe me that people think that testing and formulas are going to make things better. If I sell poor hay I will not get any repeat customers. The true test is how the animals perform on the feed. It seem odd to me that we are wanting to change everything to a calculated science and then wonder why things don't work out like they should when we followed the formula perfectly. We have some folks coming in around here doing the same thing, telling me I don't know how to farm because it doesn't match up with some university findings. Funny thing is I have compared my crops to theirs year after year and overall, we get better quality and yield. If you want to learn farming, count on experience (gained the hard way) and knowing the land and the crop. We would be better off to teach our kids to learn from others around them as well as their own experiences, and something else that is old school and of no value today COMMON SENSE.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

stevemsinger said:


> It seem odd to me that we are wanting to change everything to a calculated science and then wonder why things don't work out like they should when we followed the formula perfectly.


Yeah...been to several bankruptcy auctions where they did exactly what the experts told em to, problem is the experts don't have _their_ pocketbook on the line and are not actually their to see that what they recommend doesn't work a state or even a few county's away.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

People forget Hay Testing is just another tool.

Just like a hammer, if you do not know how to use a hammer, or if you abuse the hammer than it is just another dull tool, rather than a building tool.

Hay testing is no better than the sampling. If we use selective sampling then the results will be slanted in the direction selected.

So when sampling a stack we should always use the same pattern and pull a large enough sample to be reasonably representative.

The idea that some sellers cheat and some buyers cheat is not the fault of the system it is a human failing.

Arguing that only RFV or RFQ should be the price setter is foolish. Those are computed numbers from test results not test results in them selves. 
California supposedly leads the nation in trends. Well they have been using their own TDN computations for years. The California TDN is different than most other states use as a reference. 
Most Labs compute the Crude Protein from the reported nitrogen percentage. Started out measuring ammonia gas and computing CP from that. 
If you are willing to look at CP, ADF, & NDF you will be covering all the alphabet soup of computed feed values. After all the old Dairy Standard for alfalfa hay was 20-30-40 (20% CP, 30% ADF, 40% NDF).

We as the sellers need to accommodate the idiosyncrasies of the buyers. If all they want is a sniff and feel test then let them sniff and feel and save the cost of analysis.

Others, usually the Large Western Dairies want the hay tested by one of the 3 or 4 Labs that specialize in dairy rations. (On this scale the sniff and feel method is not really appropriate.)

There is a strong movement to trane and have certified hay samplers, in an attempt to have uniform samples.

The ultimate is animal acceptance, and performance.


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## c09farms (Jun 21, 2009)

I did not want to go there but with the replies I must. First, I am a disabled vet that had a lot of time on my hands while on my back so I read about cows. This was not the 80's. The books and magazines are current today. A hobby farm, well if you call 225 head a hobby then so be it. I saw my neighbors cows almost die from starvation because he took a hay farmers word about their hay. He trusted that farmer, I want trust anyone. I will do my own testing. So now that I am back on my feet, I love the farm life so I'm starting a cow/calf operation( I had a dairy cow feeder operation). That is why I said a small cow /calf operation. I needed to get answers as to why someone would sell a sorry product to someone. This forum has answered that. I thank all of you


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

c09farms said:


> I did not want to go there but with the replies I must. First, I am a disabled vet that had a lot of time on my hands while on my back so I read about cows. This was not the 80's. The books and magazines are current today. A hobby farm, well if you call 225 head a hobby then so be it. I saw my neighbors cows almost die from starvation because he took a hay farmers word about their hay. He trusted that farmer, I want trust anyone. I will do my own testing. So now that I am back on my feet, I love the farm life so I'm starting a cow/calf operation( I had a dairy cow feeder operation). That is why I said a small cow /calf operation. I needed to get answers as to why someone would sell a sorry product to someone. This forum has answered that. I thank all of you


If the hay was so bad the cows almost died of starvation the buyer should have known before it was even unloaded.It would have to be complete crap.And yes certain hay sellers are crooks but only once word gets around.Then they sell someplace else.Probably got a heck of a deal from someone he did not know.

As a seller you need repeat customers or you will be out of business.I represent my hay as it is not claim it is better.I've picked up customers because others misrepresented their hay.Or bring them a good load then bring them junk later.I'd be willing to bet theyare also getting screwed on the wt.Picked up a customer about 10 yrs ago that I del a load of hay to.After I left he reloaded it and took to town and rewieghed said he was tired of getting screwed on the wts.I've sold him over 1000 ton since.Honesty does pay sometimes.

I used to take hay samples but find it mostly unessary.Still take a few on some dairy hay or somthing I'm not sure about but generally I can tell pretty close what the test will be by when it was cut and how it got put up.Had some Alf/Orch I sold last yr customer asked what I thought it tested I figured 18% 125RFV.He tested it 18.1% 124RFV.Sold him 100 ton.


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