# Cab air conditioner question



## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Hey guys

I made a deal yesterday on a Ford 9600 with air conditioner not working. It hasn't been delivered yet but I'm trying to get a little info ahead of time. It may be nothing more than the belt (wishful thinking probably) as it don't have one on it; compressor clutch center turns by hand tho so I don't think it's locked up like the guy said he thought it was. I'm familiar enough with automotive type air to fix it but I feel sure it's an r12 unit; no tag saying it's been converted to 134.

I'd heard something about this a few years ago; there's a product called Freeze 12 (& doing a Google search I found another one; Enviro Safe) that supposedly don't require all the oil changing, etc. that 134 does; you just evacuate the system & put it in (of course if it's leaked the old out I'll fix the leak & put a new dryer on it). Anyone ever used either of these products? Looks like they'd be the way to go IF they work satisfactorily.

Input appreciated!

Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

More than likely, the compressor is junk - what you can turn is just the outside of the clutch? Many units have some sort of cover that doesn't allow you to actually turn the crankshaft of the compressor. I think the envirosafe has some sort of propane in it, where as the freeze 12 does not. If the compressor is in fact junk, you'd be well served to update it to a unit that works well with 134a, use ester oil in the system and run 134a.
that's what I'm doing to the r-12 units here..... once the compressor goes and most of the oil is gone anyway, run the new compressor on 134a - the ester oil reacts with the old mineral oil that coats the hoses and such, and acts as a barrier, and prevents many leaks..... sorta like putting slime in tires. Unless the compressor has failed, you should not flush the system.

Rodney


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Rodney

Back when I did that Ford truck they said to flush it with some kind of solvent (that's been about 10-12 years ago I think). Knowing I don't have to flush it out is a big help. The front of the clutch is open I think (going by feel; couldn't see it) & it seemed to turn. I have a new or rebuilt compressor I think if I can find it (moved from one shop to another since I've seen it). Of course it could be a bad clutch too; couldn't tell much with no belt on it. We'll see next week









Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

From what I understand the original recommendation was to flush all conversions. And you had to get new hoses and pipes, and then it was just some of the hoses etc, etc, etc.... It changes all the time. 134a requires hoses of the 'barrier' type..... they say that the 'slime' from the mineral oil and the ester oil reacting allow the use of the old hoses. Flushing will remove most of the old mineral oil, and most of the 'barrier' type property that the 'slime' would have created. One thing to mention - do not use a PAG oil in an old mineral oil system. PAG and any remnants of mineral oil will not get along at all. You have to use ester.

Rodney


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks again. I haven't had an interest in this since that old Ford truck; everything I bought since that already had 134 from the factory. This old tractor looks to be such a bargain (runs great, everything else works & it don't look bad) that I just coudn't pass it up even though it is far bigger than I need.

Lew


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## Cannon (Aug 18, 2009)

I run a R-12 substitute in all my older tractors and it works great. I think it is the Freeze Zone stuff but I have see Red Dot and it works great also. I would rather use that then take a R-12 system and make it R-134A. first it was not made to the specs of 134. Next 134 will not cool as well ( in a non R-134A system) as the R-12 stuff or the substitutes. Plus the substitutes are cheap to buy. I am using int in my JD 4755, JD 4555, JD 4240 and some of my pickups.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Cannon said:


> I run a R-12 substitute in all my older tractors and it works great. I think it is the Freeze Zone stuff but I have see Red Dot and it works great also. I would rather use that then take a R-12 system and make it R-134A. first it was not made to the specs of 134. Next 134 will not cool as well ( in a non R-134A system) as the R-12 stuff or the substitutes. Plus the substitutes are cheap to buy. I am using int in my JD 4755, JD 4555, JD 4240 and some of my pickups.


Thanks Cannon

I've found some called Red Tek & Freeze 12 online; haven't done any local shopping yet. Are those the ones you're referring to? I'd rather find something locally if possible so can you suggest a source?

Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

The last Freeze 12 we got was at NAPA.

Rodney


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Rodney

I'll check at the stores tomorrow (we have 2 Napa's locally). It's not on their website but lotas stuff may not be







.

Lew


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## tw30 (Apr 4, 2010)

tractorparts asap sells anything you need for tractors made from just about all years until you get into the really old stuff pre 40's

Ford 9600 Cab Parts / Glass tractor parts


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## Cozyacres (Jul 16, 2009)

Cannon said:


> I run a R-12 substitute in all my older tractors and it works great. I think it is the Freeze Zone stuff but I have see Red Dot and it works great also. I would rather use that then take a R-12 system and make it R-134A. first it was not made to the specs of 134. Next 134 will not cool as well ( in a non R-134A system) as the R-12 stuff or the substitutes. Plus the substitutes are cheap to buy. I am using int in my JD 4755, JD 4555, JD 4240 and some of my pickups.


Most all types refrigerants you can't buy without an EPA license. 
at lease here in Wisconsin


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've had two systems over the years that the R-12 replacement was used. One was just a drop in type and the other you added a compatibility agent to the compressor then used R-134A. Both units worked reasonably well until the compressors seized and practically ripped em right out of the mounting brackets.

Upon disassembly of the systems I found sludge that a reputable heating/AC guy in the area said was from the "drop in" replacements for R-12.

Since then I completely flush the systems, change the oil and replace any o-rings in the system then add the PAG oil, fill and recharge with R-12. Maybe my systems aren't as old as some others or the hoses had already been replaced with the barrier types, but I've yet had to replace hoses after a recharge with R134A.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

tw30 said:


> tractorparts asap sells anything you need for tractors made from just about all years until you get into the really old stuff pre 40's
> 
> Ford 9600 Cab Parts / Glass tractor parts


Thanks tw30; prices look good for sure.

Lew


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

cozyacres said:


> Most all types refrigerants you can't buy without an EPA license.
> at lease here in Wisconsin


I haven't done much looking yet; probably going to get the tractor Thursday (it's 120 miles away; talked to the delivery guy this afternoon). I picked up a belt for it today; will know more once I put the belt on it & gages to see if any refrigerant in it at all. I do know that you can buy 134 here without a license; only place I've looked so far was Autozone; had to pick up some oil there yesterday. 134 is all they carry though.

Lew


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## Cannon (Aug 18, 2009)

I went looking fro my Freeze 12 and I found it at my AGCO dealer. I am sure its not an AGCO item but maybe NAPA would be a good place to start.

mlappin: i am sure your mechanic knows his stuff, and I don't know why it works so well for me and other people out here. I just know they work for me. ?


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Cannon

That gives me another place to check. If I don't find it locally there is an Agco dealer bout 35 miles from here.

Lew


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I could be wrong now, but years ago when I was looking into drop in replacements or just converting the systems, in the long run it was cheaper to just convert em and run 134A.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

The local autoparts joint has 134a on the front counter, and anybody can buy it in the little cans all day long. The Freeze 12 we got at NAPA and it was a 30# cylinder, and we got that w/o a license.
I know that on some A/C sites they talk about 'black death' - I don't remember exactly what it is, or what causes it, but it sorta sounds like that was what happened in mlappin's case. Many of the 'drop in' replacements are terribly combustable, and you have to watch for that - I know that freeze 12 doesn't have propane (I think that's what many others use). One of the problems is that the blends (like freeze 12) have 3-4 different refrigerants in them, and since each has it's own properties, it leaks through the hoses at a different rate, and after enough topping off has occured, you wind up with one or more of the refrigerants as a much lower % in the system, and it either will shorten the life of the equipment, or not work efficiently. I had initially thought that the drop-ins were a godsend, but the more I learn, the more that I think that they are good for just keeping an r-12 system going, but once it dies and requires a teardown, then 134a is the better choice.

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Cannon said:


> mlappin: i am sure your mechanic knows his stuff, and I don't know why it works so well for me and other people out here. I just know they work for me. ?


Not sure, even the local dealer won't use a drop in anymore. Flush it out, install new oil and dryer then recharge with 134A. Maybe with our winters they just sit too long idle, most of our stuff we take the batteries out when finished in the fall and keep em in the shop on a trickle charger so starting the equip once a month and running teh ac for a bit is kinda out of the question.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Rodney R said:


> once the compressor goes and most of the oil is gone anyway, run the new compressor on 134a - the ester oil reacts with the old mineral oil that coats the hoses and such, and acts as a barrier, and prevents many leaks..... sorta like putting slime in tires. Unless the compressor has failed, you should not flush the system.
> 
> Rodney


Hey Rodney

Well "the beast" (biggest tractor I've ever driven) just got delivered about a half hour ago. I'll put a belt on it this evening then go from there. If it has no refrigerant then I'll decide what to do based on availability.

If the compressor is good (which I feel it may be since I was able to turn the center of the clutch by hand) is there a way to keep from flushing it (the idea of the leak protection of the old oil sounds appealing)? I may well go with 134 since it's available most everywhere.

Stay tuned!
















Lew


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Another update; the compressor is bad; I'm guessing it threw a rod or something as you can turn it almost a full turn & it "suddenly stops" like something hitting inside. Storms coming in (much needed so I'm not complaining!) so I didn't get the gages on it to see if it has any refrigerant. If it still happens to have refrigerant (it has service valves so I can isolate the compressor from the rest of the system) how much oil do I need to put in the new compressor? Oreilly's shows online to have 2 compressors in stock at the local store; I'll pick one up tomorrow if they actually have one.

Lew


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Best bet is to get the proper manual for the tractor and see what they say far as oil amount. Some of the manuals I have say to drain the old compressor, measure what comes out, then add that amount to the new one.

Usually if I have a compressor failure I like to just flush the system, install a new dryer and start from scratch to make sure everything is clean and up to snuff.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a watch on ebay for a service manual; one on there now for 75 bux but I'm hoping for a cheaper one. Getting ready to go out & pull compressor; hoping Oreilly has one in stock here like their website shows. Then I'll see how much refrigerant is still in it; if any significant I think I still have a little bit of R12 left; if not enough then I'll flush it out & go with 134.

Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I really wouldn't flush the thing, unless the compressor has sent nasty material through the system, or if it looks nasty when you open it up. If it's clean, I'd pull a vacuum with the new compressor on it (and dryer), pull the oil in (ester), and pull the 134a in it.

If it has one of the A6 delco compressor on it, throw it in the scrap pile and forget you ever saw it, and under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should you buy another A6. Many of them have been rebuilt so many times that the case on them is just plain wore out. I have heard a LOT of guys say that they've been through 3-4 and finally wound up installing something different. You really need to check out what is out there - Abilene MachineNew, used and rebuilt tractor and combine parts. Your one stop source for John Deere tractor parts, John Deere combine parts, Allis tractor parts, Gleaner combine parts, Case tractor parts, Case IH tractor parts, Case IH combine parts, International  has some compressor retro kits, and AP AIR, INC - Home will have the specs for how much oil you need.

Rodney


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Rodney

I picked up a rebuilt York compressor, ester oil, 134, etc. today; will put it all on tomorrow & see what happens. A friend of mine works for a company that does lots of auto air conditioning work; his rebuilt compressor was only 5 bux higher than the cheapest I'd found (O'Reilly's) & I told him all the good info he gave me was worth the extra 5 bux







He had it in stock; didn'r know if OR did or not. He gave me an empty 134 cylinder in case it dont work without flushing it (I have a military surplus recovery unit that's supposed to be able to filter refrigerant for re-use) so I'll try that if it messes up just putting it in without flushing it. I can at least recover it & won't just lose it.

Lew


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## tw30 (Apr 4, 2010)

My dad said a mechanic told him that freeze12 has high amounts of butane in it and if it leaks out it can cause a fire -highly flamable-He said you might just want to do some researching on the freeze 12.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

tw30,
It's been years since I did all the reasearch on the r-12 substitutes, but many of them DID have something flammable in them, like butane. I think that freeze 12 is a blend of 3 refrigerants (134a being one of them), but you'd be able to find out pretty easily.

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Another was HotShot, I think it was propane based.

So far I've been happy with just converting em and running 134A.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Ok here's the latest. I got the adapter fitting for my vacuum pump this morning; tried all afternoon to get a vacuum on it but only drew enough to deflect the vac gage a little; nowhere near a good vacuum. Obviously there's a leak. I checked all the fittings I'd loosened & they all seem tight. All fittings on this old sustem (except for the service valve to compressor firrings) are flare; no O-rings. My old recovery machine has sat unused for a few years & vac pump in it won't start (hopefully just the relay or capacitor?) so as of now I just have the regular vac pump to use.

My plan is to go ahead & put a can of 134 in it & see if I can spot the leak (I have a spray bottle of soapy stuff we used to use for finding gas leaks when I owned a layndromat; gets really foamy when sprayed on a leak) that should help find it/them. Now my question; needless to say I don't want to waste any more 134 than necessary; do yall think I can build enough pressure without running the system? I'd prefer to just put in whatever it'll take without running; if running it might pull the low side down to a vacuum plus there could very well be enough moisture in it to form an ice block at the expansion valve since I can't get it to pull a good vacuum.

Any input appreciated!

Lew


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Get a cylinder of compressed nitrogen gas. You can pressurize the system high enough to find the leak and the nitrogen gas will bind with any water in the system making it much easier to make sure all the water is evacuated when you pull a vacuum on it next time.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Never thought of that; I'll check on a cylinder tomorrow









Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

A plain ole can of 134a won't have near enough pressure to make things leak, it'll stop flowing in before much pressure gets in the system. The best thing has already been suggested - the big cylinder of compressed nitrogen gas. You can easily put a few hundred pounds in the system, if it takes that much to find the hole. Sounds to me like it's going to get expensive..... find an A&I dealer if you need parts, and maybe APair....

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

One last thing I thought I'd mention, while the system is empty, go ahead and change the needles in the charging ports. Rarely do they go bad, but it's empty, they are cheap, and there is no better time to do it unless you already have the special tool to change em while under pressure.

I have the tool as a matter of fact, but haven't needed it since I bought it, go figure.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks Rodney

I didn't get by the gas supplier today; plan to tomorrow. Only parts I might need I think would be flex lines; no oil leak evidence on either coil. I'm really suspecting it's one or more of the fittings I had to loosen/remove replacing the compressor or filter drier.

more news tomorrow; hopefully good









Lew


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

mlappin said:


> One last thing I thought I'd mention, while the system is empty, go ahead and change the needles in the charging ports. Rarely do they go bad, but it's empty, they are cheap, and there is no better time to do it unless you already have the special tool to change em while under pressure.
> 
> I have the tool as a matter of fact, but haven't needed it since I bought it, go figure.


I replaced both service valves.

Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Have you found any rust or dried 'stuff' where you've had things open? If so then you do need to flush, as that will plug an expansion valve in short order. Does that machine have a low pressure cut-out on it? If not, I'd bet that something got a hole and the compressor ate itself. Nothing worse than running a cab tractor where the A/C doesn't work - I had a compressor spring a leak yesterday, and I needed it today and tomorrow!

Rodney


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

Another little update. Everything looked clean surprisingly while I had it open. No low pressure cutout; The compressor (York) threw a rod & locked up. I went to get the nitrogen cylinder & they said I had to open an account to get one (I've always just swapped my own oxy/acet tanks & paid cash there) so I filled out the application & told them I'd come back (approval takes about 45 minutes they said). I went back, needed a stem for a regulator to adapt it to the nitrogen cylinder. They were out of the stems, will be in tomorrow.

I came home & took the fitting out of my vacuum pump to put into the regulator. Bingo; a dirt dauber nest in the fitting letting very little air through. Cleared it out; pulls a good vscuum on system now














It does leak down in about 10-15 minutes though so I still have leak/leaks but nowhere near as bad as I thought. I'm going to skip the nitrogen since the leaks small; the nitrogen is about 14 bux & the regulator stem is 16; can lose quite a bit of 134 for 30 bux.

I'll let it pull down for s few hours tomorrow then shoot some 134 in it & leak check. I think I found the problem with the recovery unit in case it's needed; it's an old military unit that has terminals for a "full tank cutoff" that have to be shorted if you don't have that sensor. I kind of remembered something like that from when I got it; found a manual online for it & downloaded it back then; glad I did!

Lew


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Might wanna double check on the price of 134A. Stopped in at our local auto parts store today as my cylinder is about empty. Said they ordered 6 30lb cylinders of 134A, only got four, the local garage took those and they aren't sure if they can get anymore. About 10 bucks a pound right now. I'm going to call around tomorrow and see if I can find a 30 pounder somewhere else.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

mlappin said:


> Might wanna double check on the price of 134A. Stopped in at our local auto parts store today as my cylinder is about empty. Said they ordered 6 30lb cylinders of 134A, only got four, the local garage took those and they aren't sure if they can get anymore. About 10 bucks a pound right now. I'm going to call around tomorrow and see if I can find a 30 pounder somewhere else.


I bought 6 cans for 6 something a can last week at Walmart. Not sure how much I needed but the lines are so long on this I figure it'll hold lots more than a car air conditioner.

Lew


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

IT WORKS!!!!!!!!!!

Been sidetracked last few days but finally finished it up today & it blows nice cold air







One of the 2 condenser fan motors isn't turning; may have to replace it. It was stuck solid so I took it apart & soused it good with WD40 & it worked for a coupla days but now it's tight again. Hoping oiling it with regular oil will fix it but if not I found a replacement online for 56 bux including shipping if my friend at the a/c shop don't have one similarly priced.

Many thanks to all for the tips, info, etc.; it's been quite an "experience" but now I'm anxious for the grass to grow some more























Lew


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

I bought a used JD 4430. The A/C didnt work as well and we just asked the guy to recharge it and he did. So i would see if the guy you bought it from would do this before you recieved it.


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