# 25gpm & 2700psi Older tractor for Bale Bandit



## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Looking at adding another bandit but not wanting to spend 40 or 60k on another tractor. What older tractors have y'all used or which ones might meet these specs? TIA


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

How old is old? Very little stuff had that flow in the 70's and if I recall it has to be closed center. The allis chalmers 8000 series probably is the cheapest thing with a big pfc pump. The boxcar magnums used the same system but are still expensive. Probably easiest to buy something cheap and stick a pto pump on it.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Can buy a euro Genesis for around $25 now. No shortage of flow.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

slowzuki said:


> How old is old? Very little stuff had that flow in the 70's and if I recall it has to be closed center. The allis chalmers 8000 series probably is the cheapest thing with a big pfc pump. The boxcar magnums used the same system but are still expensive. Probably easiest to buy something cheap and stick a pto pump on it.


Not gonna run a pto pump I looked into that a few years back, really want a second inline and bandit with a tractor that can handle them. Probably 150hrs a year no loader required.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Looking at adding another bandit but not wanting to spend 40 or 60k on another tractor.


That will be a toughie.

Regards, Mike


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

These older deeres I'm seeing tractor data shows them at 23gpm, will they really hit that or is it a far stretch?


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

A lot of them take steering and trans off that. Most oldies in the 15 at remotes or less.

Would you consider a kicker pump off the baler?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Just look at the build spec at JD....get SN. I've had no problems with the 7200 and its upgraded to 25gpm. No problems with the 6400 and its upgraded to 25gpm. Both of those tractors took some time to find......My neighbors 4450 does good but not as good, definately slower. Not sure if his tractor had the bigger pump or not but I think he tested it at around 18gpm....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Paid $26k for the 7200 $24k for the 6400 (spent more than that tho)


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

A lot of manufacturers claim what you're looking for, but you need to know if thats actually at the remotes or the total output of the pump.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Did you think about that gfc turbo boost? I guess it works all right and that would open up tractor possibilities.

The older Deeres have plenty of pump up front and a closed center system but the weakness is the trans pump, about 10-12 Gpm standard. Deere does have a bigger trans pump kit but big money.To access that capacity at the front you need some creative plumbing.

I had a over the parts counter Deere transmission filter housing that had "1 pipe fitting. Ran the return line from bandit right to it and that return pressure, probably only 200-300 psi Fed directly into the line that leads to front pump from the filter, bypassing tranny pump. This was on a 4030 and it would flow 17 Gpm at the remotes.

There were other weak points on the system though, like old rubber hoses around cooler at the front and under the platform. Those systems just weren't designed to cool that much oil either.

You need to put flow gauge on a tractor to really tell, I have done quite a few and they vary a lot more than the book says. A 30 series will generally outflow 40 and 50 series. Pump is about the same but plumbing is different. The 55's were made to run hyd drives and they will get up around 24 Gpm. A healthy 6xxx or 7xxx should be around 26 on the gauge.

I had a 6410 pump fail around 1500 hrs and mechanic said that a "better" pump came along in 10's last production year.

I often thought the best old tractor for this would be a 40 series with the powered front axle, that had a 4 cubic inch pump. A little creative plumbing and your set. However they are now 37 or so years old.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> Paid $26k for the 7200 $24k for the 6400 (spent more than that tho)


I've been on the hunt for another loader tractor for over 2 month with no luck. Used iron is a tough market right now with nothing good poping up. I had a 6400 years ago and didn't realize the flow was that much on them I'm gonna look into that


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> Did you think about that gfc turbo boost? I guess it works all right and that would open up tractor possibilities.
> 
> The older Deeres have plenty of pump up front and a closed center system but the weakness is the trans pump, about 10-12 Gpm standard. Deere does have a bigger trans pump kit but big money.To access that capacity at the front you need some creative plumbing.
> 
> ...


Lots of good info. I actually talked to Owen this afternoon about the boost system and it's $6500, for that kind of money I can upgrade the tractor and be better off I think.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> I've been on the hunt for another loader tractor for over 2 month with no luck. Used iron is a tough market right now with nothing good poping up. I had a 6400 years ago and didn't realize the flow was that much on them I'm gonna look into that


Bear in mind, they only had 17-18 gpm pumps unless ordered and built with the higher flow pump....both of these tractors had been built with the upgraded pump. The 6400 even had a 0 restriction return for a vacuum planter. Every tractor I looked at, I had to run the VIN to see what pump it was built with....an exhausting search for sure.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Lots of good info. I actually talked to Owen this afternoon about the boost system and it's $6500, for that kind of money I can upgrade the tractor and be better off I think.


I have always agreed with you. Met people who dropped like 9k on pto setup, seems like this was better spent on modern tractor that works for ya outside of hay season. I also think a modern tractor will hold its value better than a very specific use deal.

However, the one guy I know using turbo boost has had good luck in his first year with a inferior tractor up front. A long time friend who has had multiple 100/200 bandits and now a baron/ pickup version says his next one will be pto baron back behind the baler. That machine will be 100k. I respect these guys, not sure I would make same decisions but am more open to alternate paths to get gpm than I was in past.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

somedevildawg said:


> Bear in mind, they only had 17-18 gpm pumps unless ordered and built with the higher flow pump....both of these tractors had been built with the upgraded pump. The 6400 even had a 0 restriction return for a vacuum planter. Every tractor I looked at, I had to run the VIN to see what pump it was built with....an exhausting search for sure.


yes, you can't take anything for granted. The first thing I would do is buy or pay to have the flow tested on your current tractor and put same gauge on any prospective tractors. A good gpm gauge is probably $500. Never seen a healthy tractor that wouldn't make enough pressure, flow another story.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Have you looked a the 'nitro boost' option available for a bandit? According to manufacture, you could use a tractor with15GPM (open or closed system).

Larry


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> I have always agreed with you. Met people who dropped like 9k on pto setup, seems like this was better spent on modern tractor that works for ya outside of hay season. I also think a modern tractor will hold its value better than a very specific use deal.
> 
> However, the one guy I know using turbo boost has had good luck in his first year with a inferior tractor up front. A long time friend who has had multiple 100/200 bandits and now a baron/ pickup version says his next one will be pto baron back behind the baler. That machine will be 100k. I respect these guys, not sure I would make same decisions but am more open to alternate paths to get gpm than I was in past.


I have been looking at the pull type barons and I will probably be switching to one in the next 2-3 years but 70k for a used one will have me sticking with the bandit until I can make sure everything is gonna go to plan. Here I have no use for a tractor in the offseason so any new tractor purchased will be used for baling only which is another reason I was trying to stay away from a 40k $ 10 series Deere.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Why would a pto setup cost that much?



SVFHAY said:


> I have always agreed with you. Met people who dropped like 9k on pto setup


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

slowzuki said:


> Why would a pto setup cost that much?


A pto pump won't work for me because the bandit trails the baler. I have a pickup head for mine but I can't see one bandit keeping up with two balers


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## TJB (Jul 5, 2016)

Has anyone tried a pump off the flywheel for the bandits? That's how I run my old hoelschler with my inline baler. The hydraulics were weak on my old tractor and I had the pump laying around so I rigged it up that way to save the tractor hydraulics.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Thats why I was suggesting earlier to drive it off the baler flywheel like a kicker or old accumulator. Less stuff to unhook.



Lewis Ranch said:


> A pto pump won't work for me because the bandit trails the baler. I have a pickup head for mine but I can't see one bandit keeping up with two balers


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

slowzuki said:


> Why would a pto setup cost that much?


They didn't build unit themselves, went to a hydraulic shop. I believe it had a frame or cart, this was in a pickup operation. If you just price a new pump it seems doable, but add cooling (protected for dirty environment) drive line, fittings, frame etc...it all adds up.

Baron pto unit like 13? Engine model like 20?


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

slowzuki said:


> Thats why I was suggesting earlier to drive it off the baler flywheel like a kicker or old accumulator. Less stuff to unhook.


the flywheel drive not practical, when all functions demanding flow at once it takes significant amount of power, can really lug a tractor down on hills.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If you take it off the tractors pto via the baler or the tractors pump directly it makes no difference to the tractor engine. Load is load.

If that is too much load you need a engine powered hydraulic pack for the bandit.



SVFHAY said:


> the flywheel drive not practical, when all functions demanding flow at once it takes significant amount of power, can really lug a tractor down on hills.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

slowzuki said:


> If you take it off the tractors pto via the baler or the tractors pump directly it makes no difference to the tractor engine. Load is load.
> 
> If that is too much load you need a engine powered hydraulic pack for the bandit.


True, the point I was trying to make is that it's a significant load to add to the baler driveline/flywheel. Not sure whole thing is designed to transfer another 30 -40 horsepower. But be my guest, set one up that way. There are many times I operate one machine separate from the other. Will be interesting to see how that plays out.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not familiar with the inlines as much, the jd sidewinders have the belt grooves in the flywheel already and can drive quite a large pump. There are a few inlines with kickers in our area I'll try to see if they drive from the chain or a belt like the mf's.

If you take a look at the belair bale accumulators or the early arcusin ones they used a 3 point mounted pump and tank with a shaft passing through the pump. Has a parking stand on it too.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Update:

Thanks to dawg I started looking at the 6 series Deere and found a 6200 with the 25gpm pump. I had it tested before I bought it and it flowed 23gpm at 3000psi so I think it should work out fine with the bandit. Unfortunately it's 2wd but for the price I couldn't pass up the deal. Thanks again to dawg for answering a few questions I had in a pm.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

You done a days work on that tractor......much success  get that A/C up to snuff and tint them Windows . Another thing I did, I removed the heater hoses (bypassed) running under the seat to the plenum for the blower. I don't need heat in mine so didn't want any water running in there...besides, my valve was leaking


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Ac blows ice cold they just never did move much volume of air. I'm gonna relocate the battery since they put them right in front of the radiator covering up 2/3's of the cooling fins. With 2900hrs it's a slick tractor, better shape than I was anticipating.


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

I suppose you should show us a picture of this beauty!


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Finally took some pictures


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

That's nice


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

Congrats on the new tractor Lewis Ranch! I like it.


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