# Silo King preservative



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm seriously thinking about going to Silo King preservative for my hay. I wanted to see if anyone on here was using it and what your personal experiences with it have been. How well does it keep the hay from heating and molding and what would be the highest moisture you can bale with it and not get mold/heating? I'm assuming since it's a dry product there are no corrosion/rust issues with the baler? For those of you using it what is the cost of the product? I looked in to it a little a couple years ago but I remember the cost of the product seemed kind of high per bale. I mainly plan on using it for alfalfa but may end up using it on oat and grass hay as well if I get in a pinch. Would be using it on small squares that are packaged in Bale Bandit bundles.

Hayden


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

Do you currently use a preservative?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

BeamFarms said:


> Do you currently use a preservative?


 Yes, I have used Hay Guard and while I think it works okay I have decided I'm not a big fan of a liquid preservative. What part of western NC are you in? I'm in Burke county.


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

I'm in Rutherford county. I've been using a version of propionic acid made by Nuhn forage in Canada, it's buffered so it does not corrode anything. They are a great, family owned business, been around a while. I love the propionic, been on it for several years and the equipment is fine, good results and that company drop ships it to your farm. But over application can leave a stout odor, and under application defeats the purpose. But with a few moments of math you can get it accurate, and it's a life saver for our climate.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

BeamFarms said:


> I'm in Rutherford county. I've been using a version of propionic acid made by Nuhn forage in Canada, it's buffered so it does not corrode anything. They are a great, family owned business, been around a while. I love the propionic, been on it for several years and the equipment is fine, good results and that company drop ships it to your farm. But over application can leave a stout odor, and under application defeats the purpose. But with a few moments of math you can get it accurate, and it's a life saver for our climate.


 I'm personally not a big fan of propionic acid for a few reasons. I know it works and the buffered forms aren't corrosive but the smell it leaves in the hay is an issue and many of my customers won't have it. I know everyone's situation is different and what works well for some folks might not work for others and for me acid just isn't the answer. The Hay Guard I have been using is okay but I feel that I may like a dry preservative like Silo King better provided that it keeps the hay good.


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## hf449269 (Jun 4, 2014)

We use silo king in 3x4 big squares and have had good results up to 25 percent. But have also found out storing that high of moisture can still be touchy. If we bale anything over 20 we will stack spaced out where the bales won't touch one onther for a couple weeks to let them sweat out. If they touch they seem to spoil there and the inside of the bale will be fine if you get enough silo King on


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## dirtball08 (Jun 26, 2011)

So does the hay still stay green, or does it turn brown but still hold its nuttitional value to point?


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

TBrown said:


> You can put the systems on anything. You may have to drill a few holes and make some mounts because I am not sure of any systems that are built specifically for you balers but it could be done.


I'll tell you the local Agri King dealer here who sells Silo King uses buffered prop on his dry hay 3x3 baler. When we chopped haylge we bought a skid or two a year of Silo King used on all the forges and had a gandy on the small baler. Silo King has a mold inhibitor but it is also a product that enhances and speeds fermentation. I could be wrong but from my experience I really think Silo King is a product that would produce Dairy quality small bales of dry hay. IMO it is not a good product for horse quality hay and there is a difference. Check with your local Agri King Dealer, see if he can find you someone who is using Silo King to produce horse quality hay. If your hand stacked your bales product like this might work but the fact that you bend your bales together, I think you owe it to yourself to try buffered prop


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I really don't think any one preservative product out there is a cure all.....every single type preservative that I have read about or seen used has some kind of drawback(s). You just have to find the one that works the best for your particular operation. If someone could develop a "cure all" type preservative, they could take over the industry......one that doesn't burn your eyes and skin, doesn't smell, no after taste for stock, works up to 30%, does not cause rusting or blistering of paint,.....and is cheap!

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

What's the name of that stuff Vol, I want a gaggle of it.......


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I use silo king on my small square bales and feel I have good luck with it. I use it when the moisture meter starts pushing 18% and have hay that I baled last year that was 30%+. On late season cutting I will use it on the back swaths next to the woods just for insurance. I do put it on heavy since I don't have the fancy controller. During first cutting it is set for 25% moisture at 400 bales per hour. I believe it is now set at 20% at 300 bales/hr. Since I never hit those numbers I know there is enough going on even if the moisture is higher. I had 2nd cutting stored hay that was approx. 25% and sold them. Couple years ago left hay in the baler over winter that was treated and when I pulled the bale out it looked like it was just baled, smelled great, and no rust on the bale chamber. I will clarify that the hay I baled last year that was 30%+ I would not have sold. It was a little dusty when I fed it but never would have kept otherwise. The hay was clover and stacked in the barn.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

endrow said:


> I'll tell you the local Agri King dealer here who sells Silo King uses buffered prop on his dry hay 3x3 baler. When we chopped haylge we bought a skid or two a year of Silo King used on all the forges and had a gandy on the small baler. Silo King has a mold inhibitor but it is also a product that enhances and speeds fermentation. I could be wrong but from my experience I really think Silo King is a product that would produce Dairy quality small bales of dry hay. IMO it is not a good product for horse quality hay and there is a difference. Check with your local Agri King Dealer, see if he can find you someone who is using Silo King to produce horse quality hay. If your hand stacked your bales product like this might work but the fact that you bend your bales together, I think you owe it to yourself to try buffered prop


 What is the difference in dairy quality and horse quality small squares? What makes you say that Silo King would not be a good product for horse hay?

For me propionic acid just simply isn't an option due to my customers and I have no desire to drop a few of my largest buyers. Yes they are particular but so am I and I have never had any problem dealing with them. As long as I provided what they want(premium quality hay) they are willing to pay top dollar and I don't want to mess that up. I also sell a lot of hay through my families retail store a few bales at a time and those customers don't know a whole lot about hay and the smell of acid treated hay would be a problem. People think hay should smell like hay and if it doesn't they think something is wrong. I have bought hay that was treated with acid to resell and it just didn't work out.


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2013)

Hay Guard is available in granular form and has a lower application rate than Silo King.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

endrow said:


> I'll tell you the local Agri King dealer here who sells Silo King uses buffered prop on his dry hay 3x3 baler. When we chopped haylge we bought a skid or two a year of Silo King used on all the forges and had a gandy on the small baler. Silo King has a mold inhibitor but it is also a product that enhances and speeds fermentation. I could be wrong but from my experience I really think Silo King is a product that would produce Dairy quality small bales of dry hay. IMO it is not a good product for horse quality hay and there is a difference. Check with your local Agri King Dealer, see if he can find you someone who is using Silo King to produce horse quality hay. If your hand stacked your bales product like this might work but the fact that you bend your bales together, I think you owe it to yourself to try buffered prop


I agree with endrow on the king being best choice for dairy hay.

Dairy hay would grade out younger, higher protein, higher rfv, higher legume content. In my humble opinion this "environment" inside the bale provides a better host for the sk culture to thrive. The typical equine quality "grade" may not be high octane enough to keep the culture thriving long enough for moisture levels to drop to safe levels. Both types of livestock can thrive on either grade with proper management.

My cousin runs bandit w/sk gandy applicator and I run bandit w/prop applicator. He is a dairy farmer and does some custom work for me from time to time so we have run them in same conditions, though I don't claim results are exactly scientific in nature. This experience, the influence of advertising and visiting with other producers leads me to my conclusions, flawed as they may be.

The Sk treatment is a little more expensive at lower levels of moisture, say under 18% , and quite a bit more at upper limits, 25%. On legume hay it will result in flat out beautiful product when applied properly. Achieving this in humid weather can be problematic as distribution of powder throughout bale is critical.

Some prop products are less potent smelling than others. The results seem to be a little more even across all hay mixtures and the management of the whole process seems a little simpler with acid.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

SVFHAY said:


> I agree with endrow on the king being best choice for dairy hay.
> Dairy hay would grade out younger, higher protein, higher rfv, higher legume content. In my humble opinion this "environment" inside the bale provides a better host for the sk culture to thrive. The typical equine quality "grade" may not be high octane enough to keep the culture thriving long enough for moisture levels to drop to safe levels. Both types of livestock can thrive on either grade with proper management.
> My cousin runs bandit w/sk gandy applicator and I run bandit w/prop applicator. He is a dairy farmer and does some custom work for me from time to time so we have run them in same conditions, though I don't claim results are exactly scientific in nature. This experience, the influence of advertising and visiting with other producers leads me to my conclusions, flawed as they may be.
> The Sk treatment is a little more expensive at lower levels of moisture, say under 18% , and quite a bit more at upper limits, 25%. On legume hay it will result in flat out beautiful product when applied properly. Achieving this in humid weather can be problematic as distribution of powder throughout bale is critical.
> Some prop products are less potent smelling than others. The results seem to be a little more even across all hay mixtures and the management of the whole process seems a little simpler with acid.


 Most of the hay that I would be using preservative on is pure alfalfa......only occasionally would I need to use it on grass or oat hay and mostly that would be just the outside edge of the field. I don't really plan on baling hay wetter than 25%......I baled some this year at 23% and the bales were extremely heavy even with the tension on the bale chamber turned all the way down.....I'm guessing the bales were 80-85 pounds.

I try to cut my alfalfa at first bloom but many times the weather won't allow that and it ends up being more mature. Some of my hay would likely qualify as dairy grade hay but there is probably just as much that won't since it ended up being more mature than I liked because of the weather. Didn't realize the maturity of the hay would affect how the Silo King works. Pretty much all of my hay gets sold for horses and much of it gets fed to some rather high dollar horses.

How does the humidity affect the application of the Silo King? Typically I'm baling alfalfa when the humidity is pretty high to preserve the leaves so that could be an issue. Will hay baled with Silo King retain a good green color?


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## jdhayfarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

Fu fu dust!


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> Most of the hay that I would be using preservative on is pure alfalfa......only occasionally would I need to use it on grass or oat hay and mostly that would be just the outside edge of the field. I don't really plan on baling hay wetter than 25%......I baled some this year at 23% and the bales were extremely heavy even with the tension on the bale chamber turned all the way down.....I'm guessing the bales were 80-85 pounds.
> I try to cut my alfalfa at first bloom but many times the weather won't allow that and it ends up being more mature. Some of my hay would likely qualify as dairy grade hay but there is probably just as much that won't since it ended up being more mature than I liked because of the weather. Didn't realize the maturity of the hay would affect how the Silo King works. Pretty much all of my hay gets sold for horses and much of it gets fed to some rather high dollar horses.
> How does the humidity affect the application of the Silo King? Typically I'm baling alfalfa when the humidity is pretty high to preserve the leaves so that could be an issue. Will hay baled with Silo King retain a good green color?


 Color on preserved hay is variable. It can be fine. Humidity can cause the powder to clump together when left in overnight or gather in bends of ducting.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

90% of my hay is sold to horse customers and I try to cut on a 30 day cycle. Have had no complaints. I don't have an issue with the humidity affecting the preserve.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

That being said I would agree that Silo King could be a good option. It was asked what would I call dairy hay . To me regardless of RFV it would be strong on Alfalfa if mix, it would never have dried down much below the mid-twenties. This way all the leaves would have been retained , no sugars lost and the stalks would be soft and soluble, the Bales would be a little cakey but not rock solid. It might have fermented a bit because inside in the center of the Bale there might be a touch of Mowburn. The color would definitely be pale. There would be NO mold, but it would definitely have more dust than any horse had a buyer would ever consider


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2013)

Small square bales of dry hay do not ferment, as fermentation requires a total elimination of oxygen, so bacterial inoculants do little to preserve dry hay. Some inoculants have a mold inhibitor; however, to be effective you have to use more as the moisture increases. This can be difficult to manage with a manual granular applicator.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Take my comments with a grain of salt as I'm just a very small fry here in the mountains of VA and I understand the horse customer is always right..... 

IMHO buffered propionic acid is the fale safe magic bullet in hay preservative. Works as advertised and won't rust up the baler, easy enough to apply and proven effective. However, I don't think I'd bale up a pile hay with the expectation that my best customers would just accept it - but I would bale some for them to try, after I explained the advantages for their hay and wear and tear on my equipment, i.e. rust. In many ways, we have a symbiotic relationship with our customers - so there "should" be some give and take.

One thing I know is - you are a most knowledgeable and credible maker and seller of hay, not some buffoon baling up trash and calling it a hay. I have several customers that are AMAZED that the goal of my hay operation is top quality hay - specific to horses. No one else around that I know conveys this and it's a cool drink of water to the customer that I've got the interest of their horses front and center when we make hay. I have to believe some of your high volume hay customers would look to you as an most knowledgeable supplier and from that have some trust that when you say, "buffered propionic acid preserves your hay quality, yea it smells, but is utterly harmless to the horse - and here is the data to prove it." that a reasonable customer might try some and perhaps it would make a segway to larger purchases of treated hay via buffered propionic acid. I say all that knowing the horse customer can be most difficult, in spite of the facts.

In reading your posts through the spring and summer, you've really had some crappy windows to make hay and have wondered - how is this hay made with higher moisture, etc., received by the customer. Is it any less received than if it were baled with buffered propionic acid.

Just talking (or typing) out loud.

Good luck,
Bill


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

leeave96 said:


> Take my comments with a grain of salt as I'm just a very small fry here in the mountains of VA and I understand the horse customer is always right.....
> IMHO buffered propionic acid is the fale safe magic bullet in hay preservative. Works as advertised and won't rust up the baler, easy enough to apply and proven effective. However, I don't think I'd bale up a pile hay with the expectation that my best customers would just accept it - but I would bale some for them to try, after I explained the advantages for their hay and wear and tear on my equipment, i.e. rust. In many ways, we have a symbiotic relationship with our customers - so there "should" be some give and take.
> One thing I know is - you are a most knowledgeable and credible maker and seller of hay, not some buffoon baling up trash and calling it a hay. I have several customers that are AMAZED that the goal of my hay operation is top quality hay - specific to horses. No one else around that I know conveys this and it's a cool drink of water to the customer that I've got the interest of their horses front and center when we make hay. I have to believe some of your high volume hay customers would look to you as an most knowledgeable supplier and from that have some trust that when you say, "buffered propionic acid preserves your hay quality, yea it smells, but is utterly harmless to the horse - and here is the data to prove it." that a reasonable customer might try some and perhaps it would make a segway to larger purchases of treated hay via buffered propionic acid. I say all that knowing the horse customer can be most difficult, in spite of the facts.
> In reading your posts through the spring and summer, you've really had some crappy windows to make hay and have wondered - how is this hay made with higher moisture, etc., received by the customer. Is it any less received than if it were baled with buffered propionic acid.
> ...


 I know acid works well for many producers but my biggest customers will not accept acid.....and there is no negotiating that. Also for my retail hay sales to the uneducated hay buying public acid isn't going to go over and I'm not around at our retail store most of the time to explain about the treated smell. My main reason for looking into other hay preservative options is to get away from a liquid product which acid doesn't accomplish that either. I just really despise dealing with a liquid product and sprayer when baling hay. If I was going to use a liquid product I might would stay with Hay Guard as I believe what I treated kept okay but I'm not 100% sure as I haven't got to those bales yet to open them and see. However the rust issue with the Hay Guard is something I would have to seriously consider.

We have had some really tough weather this year to make hay in. As far as how customers react to higher moisture hay.....provided it's not funny smelling or molded/heat damaged its fine. Otherwise it's cow hay and I have had a good bit of that this year unfortunately. Some alfalfa I had molded just laying in the windrow from the high humidity before it was ready to bale.....wasn't rained on either. I haven't sold any of the bales that were treated with Hay Guard yet and I won't likely seek those at our store to customers that buy a few bales at a time as the bales are so heavy(80 plus pounds with no tension on the baler).


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

I also make horse hay to sell. Can't get hay Guard at the place where I got it from. Need to switch also. Easy to get acid but the horse people will freek out.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

TORCH said:


> I also make horse hay to sell. Can't get hay Guard at the place where I got it from. Need to switch also. Easy to get acid but the horse people will freek out.


 Last year was my first season using the Silo King preservative and for the most part it was a positive experience. It definitely works and I had a lot of hay I'm certain that would not have kept if it wasn't treated. I did have a batch of hay which did heat up and carmelize but it didn't mold.....I feel that hay was higher in moisture than what my moisture tester was saying though. Overall I much prefer it over the HayGuard and the dry applicator is very user friendly. Getting the Silo King is very simple as your local rep can have it shipped directly to your door. Unless you tell your customers it was treated they would never know as it has zero smell.....many of my customers are aware that I use it and have no issues with it anyway. I got a lot of positive feedback from customers on the Silo King treated hay.

Hayden


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## WileyGator (Jan 23, 2019)

Has anyone had any experience with Bale Plus or Baler`s Choice? Does Hay Guard contain no propionic acid? Just getting prepared to install possible liquid sprayer on baler for upcoming season. We prefer the CropSaver system but am unsure as to the right product to run thru it?There so many products our there and I`m afraid of my 90% hay sales to horse customers!


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Not sure about Bale plus, but Balers Choice is Crop saver by Harvestec at the JD Dealer



WileyGator said:


> Has anyone had any experience with Bale Plus or Baler`s Choice? Does Hay Guard contain no propionic acid? Just getting prepared to install possible liquid sprayer on baler for upcoming season. We prefer the CropSaver system but am unsure as to the right product to run thru it?There so many products our there and I`m afraid of my 90% hay sales to horse customers!


There is a lot of prop goes on horse hay in my kneck of the woods . Baled at 18% or less (much higher it is not horse hay any way ) the amount of acid needed will not be detected . The people with horses here know they do not want mold or dust so they know acid on 3x3's is about the only way . You know your hay and customers.

Neighbor sold Agri King and had silo king in his warehouse at all times and used acid on the baler for dry hay .. Sat threw many Agriking meetings and always heard , Silo King chemistry is all about rapid fermentation ,but if it works for you use it .Crop saver is like a fungicide and a fumigant and will not let the molds grow .

I know a lot of farmers who put prop on horse hay will not run the automated applicator because if it thinks it sees a wet spot it will shot a bunch of extra prop on and stink up the whole load '

Propionic acid and potassium sorbate are used as food preservative on the food we eat .


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

Ive used both Nuhns hay presertive and Silo King,,, I got tired of seeing brown bales, so I built a dryer. Now I just put Silo King on hay that doesn't go in dryer ,,, which would be later Timothy hay,, not young Alfalfa /Timothy, it seems to climb in moisture after baling


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Chuck said:


> Ive used both Nuhns hay presertive and Silo King,,, I got tired of seeing brown bales, so I built a dryer. Now I just put Silo King on hay that doesn't go in dryer ,,, which would be later Timothy hay,, not young Alfalfa /Timothy, it seems to climb in moisture after baling


What is the capacity your dryer?. My Grand Parents had a hay dryer , I tell my son he should build one .He says soon as he does the horse people will feed wrapped hay


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

WileyGator said:


> Does Hay Guard contain no propionic acid?


No, it contains buffered PA. (OOPS, I was thinking of CropSaver with regards to buffered PA, I stand corrected, HayGuard is PA free, thanks Mike)



WileyGator said:


> Has anyone had any experience with Bale Plus or Baler`s Choice?


Baler's Choice, is the 'brand' for Class, Krone, Kuhn & Vermeer. Crop Saver is the 'brand' for NH, Green Gard is the 'brand' for JD and Thirty Plus is the 'brand' for CaseIH in MY neck of the woods. All are from Harvest Tec, BTW. AGRO is just called AGRO preservative, I think.

I've used both Crop Saver (NH) and Green Gard (JD), usually buy from NH, being price is lower. Both products have a green color to them (except for left over amount, that I leave in outside freezing temps). Freezing temps have no effect on material working, it just looses it's color.

I have an automatic system on both my RB and SS baler, most of my hay is sold to horse folks.

Larry

PS Welcome to HT gator, were about in Michigan are you located?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

No acid in Hayguard Larry. 

http://isfglobal.com/hay-guard-2/

Regards, Mike


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Vol said:


> No acid in Hayguard Larry.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Good catch Mike, NH is "CropSaver" not HayGuard. Crop Saver is like Balers Choice, etc with acid. It was one of those days I guess where I was confused (again :huh, it doesn't help with same product with numerous names.

Larry


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## WileyGator (Jan 23, 2019)

Thanks for the info, especially on Hay guard. What`s the up side of a hay preservative with no buffered PA? How about Balers Plus? Is that just another name for Balers Choice?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

WileyGator said:


> Thanks for the info, especially on Hay guard. What`s the up side of a hay preservative with no buffered PA? How about Balers Plus? Is that just another name for Balers Choice?


The upside to no PA is that others, like HayGuard, has no smell and that it is not nearly so dangerous around applicators as PA.

HG works very very well. It keeps the hay from reaching high temps...which causes the molding primarily.

The down side to HG is that it will blister your paint and rust the exposed metal IF not rinsed off after each usage. That is sort of a pain, but to me it is a smaller price to pay.

HG also works at higher moisture levels than some of the other preservatives.

Regards, Mike


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

r82230 said:


> No, it contains buffered PA. (OOPS, I was thinking of CropSaver with regards to buffered PA, I stand corrected, HayGuard is PA free, thanks Mike)
> 
> Baler's Choice, is the 'brand' for Class, Krone, Kuhn & Vermeer. Crop Saver is the 'brand' for NH, Green Gard is the 'brand' for JD and Thirty Plus is the 'brand' for CaseIH in MY neck of the woods. All are from Harvest Tec, BTW. AGRO is just called AGRO preservative, I think.
> 
> ...


Crop saver is just brand name buffered propionic acid. We bought from New Holland once I think, then after that went with other suppliers because the cost was quite a bit lower, for the same ingredients. Never had a problem with any buffered proprionic acid product we have used.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Harvesttec salesman was at the dealer open house. I didnt realize this buy Harvesttec supplies the oems (Case/NH/Agco) with their brand of acid. The salesman claims that their product is far superior to the other buffered acids because they raise the PH of their acid to somewhere around 6, I think. He claimed their lab tests TON of other brands of acid and none come close to theirs...

I was using Hayguard, but I had a real issue when I left the applicator sit for about 2 months when not in use. The hayguard in the applicator turned into some sort of acid due to the exposure to oxygen in the applicator. Not only did I loose about 4 gallons of product, but the fumes were that bad I really couldnt breath while trying to flush out the applicator. I mean BAD. Carbon filter respirator did nothing. The fumes came right through it. At one point I made a hasty exit of the top of the baler because I couldn't breath anything but acid fumes. Ended up gashing my knee on the way down. I was really sold on hayguard until this last experience. Now I am not sure what to think.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

That would be sulfur fumes(gas) Mike. Yep, they will take your breath. Not good to leave unused HayGuard in a container that can draw oxygen for long periods of time. I drain mine off back into a container that I can seal.

Regards, Mike


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Vol said:


> That would be sulfur fumes(gas) Mike. Yep, they will take your breath. Not good to leave unused HayGuard in a container that can draw oxygen for long periods of time. I drain mine off back into a container that I can seal.
> 
> Regards, Mike


So you don't even let the preservative sit in the applicator? That's not sealed off good enough?? I do have the pop down lid breather too...How do you pump your applicator empty? Seams like a real pain..


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

PaMike said:


> So you don't even let the preservative sit in the applicator? That's not sealed off good enough?? I do have the pop down lid breather too...How do you pump your applicator empty? Seams like a real pain..


I do let mine sit, but not for over thirty days. I have a drain on the bottom of my tank that I put a hose connector on with a pvc shutoff . I have a short 6 foot hose that i use to drain back into a empty container.....and sometimes I might rinse the tank out with the hose connected. Its pretty handy.

Regards, Mike


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