# Short Knot Tails



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

I haven't been able to count on my backup 310 NH baler for a few years due to issues with one knot pulling out due to short tails on the knot. I had a local baler expert (retired from the dealer) check it out, make a few adjustments and it seemed to be better for a hundred bales or so until one of the pto yokes exploded. Fixed that, and then I had the knot issue again. He's looked at it three times so far, and can't really find any issues. Last time he replaced the bill hook on that side (for free) out of desperation. The new bill hook helped, but still the issue existed. I've adjusted the twine holder spring every which way with no success trying to increase the tail length. I finally got it out again this weekend armed with the knotter tutorial posted here by Coondle back in January and had my son slowly turn it over so I could compare the two sides, and noticed that both sides actually have short tails - probably 3/8" - whereas the tails on my 570 are twice as long . Took the knife arm off the problem side and honed the knife as sharp as I could. Both knives are at about the same distance from the bill hook and similar to my 570. The cutting of the twine seems fine, but after studying the knotters more it appears that the knife arm stripper is making the knot worse and shortening the tails as if pulls the knot from the bill hook. I've tried adjusting the bill hook tension too with no difference. At first I though the bill hook was too tight, but now it seems that it might be too loose as it is supposed to hold the tails to help tighten the knot as it is pushed off by the stripper? I think this is the problem, but since the bill hook is new I'm not sure what else to do. The stripper rubs lightly on the bill hook as it is supposed to and the brass roller on the end of the arm is fine. This baler has probably had at least 100k bales through it and has not had any major knotter work before other than maybe a twine arm and bill hook once before. Any ideas of what to check next?


----------



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

My first thought is that your twine holder tension is too high, but you say you've messed with it to no avail. Twine holder tension is very sensative, half a flat rotation of the bolt is a major change.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Along the lines of the twine holder tension, I'd replace the springs while you're working on it. They weaken over time with no visual way to check if they're any good. And they're cheap. But if it appears that the stripping action is making the worse, they probably aren't your problem.


----------



## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

The banner below your post suggests that bale skis might be the answer. In all seriousness tho myfirst thought was alsotwine holder tension. Maybe add a couple turns of tension to the bale chamber giving a little more leeway for the knotter to function.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

I've tried the twine holder tension a fraction of a turn at a time both ways for many bales but no real impact. I get the same length of pieces out of the twin holder each time (not sure if there is an official name for them - the pieces that end up on top of the bale) but I can certainly replace the springs. I really think all is well until the stripper tries to pull the knot off the bill hook, and then it bunches the knot up and pushes it back over the tails.


----------



## Roger872 (May 26, 2020)

I am having trouble with my NH377 baler leaving short tails on one knotter. I have just replaced both twine knives as one had a dull spot and are 40 years old! I thought this would cure it! I have now adjusted knife arm travel to book also twine retainer. There is very little pressure on twine box tension plate and I have swapped lines over with no difference. What I can see is the good knotter knife arm has about 5mm more metal on the heel that brushes bill hook (it looks although the bad knotter has been adjusted many more times to stroke bill hook). This looks like it puts knife at a very slightly different angle but distance from retainer is similar. The other thing which I have just noticed is, the underside of good knotter retainer has 2 very short nicely cut tails protruding  2 - 3 mm where the other has very little and is not a neat cut. Father always insisted that too much retainer pressure did not allow twine to slip a little during knotting. I have never seen that written in any manuals. Any help appreciated.


----------



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Roger872 said:


> Father always insisted that too much retainer pressure did not allow twine to slip a little during knotting. I have never seen that written in any manuals. Any help appreciated.


He is right. The operator’s manual for the New Holland D1000 will tell you that, and I know from experience that is true. There may be other factors as well, but I would try backing off the tension of the twine holder of the short tail knotter. One flat of the bolt head (1/6 turn) at a time.


----------



## Roger872 (May 26, 2020)

I have removed spring and cleaned retainer now I get about 10mm of clean tail from bad knotter and about 5mm showing from good. Taking knife arm across tails shows exactly why one is longer as knife arm is bent slightly differently. I could make a wedge shaped piece of steel to address this or new knife arm but the good knotter still makes tails about 26mm as opposed to 12mm so the knife placement is still not that much.


----------



## Rrueda (Jan 10, 2019)

Roger872 said:


> I have removed spring and cleaned retainer now I get about 10mm of clean tail from bad knotter and about 5mm showing from good. Taking knife arm across tails shows exactly why one is longer as knife arm is bent slightly differently. I could make a wedge shaped piece of steel to address this or new knife arm but the good knotter still makes tails about 26mm as opposed to 12mm so the knife placement is still not that much.


Check the ceramic insulator looking things for grooves and rotate them a little bit. That increases drag and tension altogether.


----------



## Roger872 (May 26, 2020)

Roger872 said:


> I am having trouble with my NH377 baler leaving short tails on one knotter. I have just replaced both twine knives as one had a dull spot and are 40 years old! I thought this would cure it! I have now adjusted knife arm travel to book also twine retainer. There is very little pressure on twine box tension plate and I have swapped lines over with no difference. What I can see is the good knotter knife arm has about 5mm more metal on the heel that brushes bill hook (it looks although the bad knotter has been adjusted many more times to stroke bill hook). This looks like it puts knife at a very slightly different angle but distance from retainer is similar. The other thing which I have just noticed is, the underside of good knotter retainer has 2 very short nicely cut tails protruding 2 - 3 mm where the other has very little and is not a neat cut. Father always insisted that too much retainer pressure did not allow twine to slip a little during knotting. I have never seen that written in any manuals. Any help appreciated.


I think I have now cured the knotter that left short tails. The bill hook had deep grooves worn in where twine wraps when knotting. I put a new bill hook in and now works perfectly.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks for the follow up, sure helps others trolling for solutions.


----------

