# FROST SEEDING ???



## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm in western Kentucky . 15 miles from ohio river . And I know the answer to this I think but the upcoming weather window of being able to get over the fields with fert makes me want to see if anyone has tried this and their results . Needing to over seed some med red clover onto some grass and I usually do this in early feb . WOULD IT BE CRAZY TO DO IT NOW ??? temps are low 50's in the day and 30ish at night . Will the seed survive till spring ??? anyone done this in dec ? Fert is going on reguardless but thinking of doing this with fert and buggy instead of UTV in feb . Any comments are appreciated


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

siscofarms said:


> I'm in western Kentucky . 15 miles from ohio river . And I know the answer to this I think but the upcoming weather window of being able to get over the fields with fert makes me want to see if anyone has tried this and their results . Needing to over seed some med red clover onto some grass and I usually do this in early feb . WOULD IT BE CRAZY TO DO IT NOW ??? temps are low 50's in the day and 30ish at night . Will the seed survive till spring ??? anyone done this in dec ? Fert is going on reguardless but thinking of doing this with fert and buggy instead of UTV in feb . Any comments are appreciated


The old wives tale is that frost seeding should be done on the last snow of the winter--usually February.

If you decide to do it now, you will lose some, maybe 15% or more, of your seed to birds and rot. If you're blending it with your fertilizer, I would up my rate by maybe 20-25% and go ahead. This would save a pass over the field. The cost of the additional seed t'ain't going to be that much more.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I'd be worried about it germinating and then getting a killing frost


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> I'd be worried about it germinating and then getting a killing frost


Good point! I would, too.

Check your ground temperature. You're probably 10 degrees warmer than me and my ground is still warm enough that almost nothing has gone dormant. And we're expecting 60's the rest of the week.

Ralph


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

I'd wait until mid to late Feb. Have had decent luck frost seeding timothy. I'd wait for the green-up for the fertilizer though.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Spinning on the fertilizer potash and phosphorus be fine a little early for nitrogen. Any N should be ammonium sulfate.IMO be way to early to apply the full amount of nitrogen for next Springs 1st cutting grass


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Never heard of frost seeding Timothy, but you have got my interest. I would like to reseed some timothy fields and some orchard grass fields. Didn't get it done this fall. Any advice would be appreciated.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Thanks . You have just kinda agreed with what I thought , But if anyone had done it I wanted to know .

As far as seeding timothy and orchard grass ,, it definetly works . I do it all the time . Have about 70 acres of the best timothy around and stand is 12+ yrs old . Every spring I put 5lbs per acre . Here its usually late feb . Try to spread on a snow or hard freeze . trick is to have a good spreader . If your using ATV spreader , do make sure it has a adjatter on inside to keep a smooth , even seed flow .


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

I put mine on with a Herd Manufacturing broadcaster on the back of my quad. Does a fine job.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

It is my intent to over seed my new timothy fields annually. I don't see the harm. As bare or thin spots come on, any equipment damage, it just seems to me that throwing seed across those areas would be beneficial.

I had a small bucket of timothy left over from when I seeded my fields late this summer and I broadcast it with a handheld broadcast spreader. It is a tiny strip, but really took-off - kind of made me wonder why I rented a drill in the first place.

Bill


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

Dormant Broadcast Seeding

I live about an hour northwest of Prince George British Columbia Canada. I frost seeded Alma Timothy this year. 90 acres of hayfields received 200lbs of Timothy.

Two things here; Use seed count per pound to your advantage and second broadcast spread at the right time.

The math really works with Timothy, especially at the Cdn$1.60lb I spent. Timothy has 1.152 million seeds per pound, 200 pounds equals 230,400,000 seeds. That's 2.56 million seeds per acre (90 acres) or 57 seeds per square foot. A 10% take is 5.7 new plants per sq foot, perhaps more realistic is a 5% take for almost 3 new plants per square foot.

I used an ATV mounted spreader I've had for years, Seed cost for the Timothy was Cdn$320.00

Only spread seed when fall, early winter ground temp is going to be below, and stay below 35F. The seed will not bloat or germinate below that temp.

I have never tried spring seeding, always a late fall/early winter seeding, what's known as a dormant seeding. It works.

BCRick


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Welcome to Haytalk, BCRick

73, Mark


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

BC Rick I always wondered in settings like that with seed or fertilizer or lime if the ground was kind of frozen and whatever you spread did not adhere to the ground and you got a heavy rain shower could it wash away.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Last year as the grain markets headed south I did some overseeding in some worn out alfalfa fields ..it was getting pretty late last week of September in 2014.. I used 8 pounds of tekapo orchard grass and a pound of fescue per acre. From what I could see I had very little growth as the growing season ended in 2014. But somehow it came back this year. Picture just after last cutting 2015. When possible I still prefer using the JD 1590 grain drill


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Are you saying spread seed on top of snow or just before a snow?


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Yes . that's the perfect time . don't spread on a deep snow but a 2" or less is perfect .


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I am going to try it just to say I did .I think I will take a mixture of Timothy ,fescue and orchard grass and try it. Anybody have any recommendations on seeders for my ATV or UTV . I would not want to get into anything for the utv thay would spin fertilizer just seed


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

Thanks for the welcome.

I applied the seed directly onto frozen ground middle of November. It's covered by 6" of snow right now. I did use a spike harrow before broadcast seeding to rough up the ground and lift thatch for better seed to ground contact. The seed will sit all winter, but in the spring will be worked into cracks and crevices. My ground is flat so run off isn't a problem.

I like to dormant seed every year, fills in bare spots for weed control and keeps my fields full of strong young plants.

Conditions up here are way different then most of those reading this. Here we average 90 frost free days a year. Don't plant a garden till end of May, can have killer frosts right into June. Get one crop of hay, usually there's a two week window in early July to get it down and off the field. A little stemmy compared to what most of you cut. Heavy fert gets us 3t an acre - OG, timothy, tall fescue and some hybrid brome - on a good weather year.

I roll 4x5's @ 7-800lbs, keep some, sell some to horse owning friends.

BCRick


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Just an update . It sure worked out that I did not do this a month ago . Weather has stayed warm which probably would have sprouted the seed and it would be swimming by now . Ya know the , water standing on hillsides type rain here now and temps going down this week . Wouldn't have been a good thing I don't think ...


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

Doesn't sound like it would of worked. We did not have your problem, got cold, seeded, stayed cold, easy to get it right here.

-28c (-18.5f) this morning with snow on the ground, maybe half a meter (1.5ft), average roughly 5ft a year of snow. Won't start melting till end of April.

BCRick


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## MrLuggs (Dec 14, 2015)

Just to jump in here, as a frost seeding novice - how do you guys spread when frost seeding? Do you mix with fertilizer, or just go straight seed and then fertilize after first cut (or your normal schedule)? If you're doing bare seed, what sort of spreader do you use to get such a light application (say, 4lb/acre for OG, for instance).

I've got a really patchy alfalfa field (~20ac) that I've been considering giving frost seeding a try on, so just started digging around for info.

Thanks in advance!


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Yea ,If anything is a constant around here is that the weather will not be constant .


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## The saint (Oct 4, 2015)

How do you all seed at such low rates brodcast? Are you mixing seed with some other material to get the right application rates? Thanks.


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

The ATV mounted spreader I use is a disc type spinner mounted in the back of a Ranger 500 side by side. It's suppose to hold 125lbs of whatever, seed or fert. There is no way to accurately gauge the amount spread or even spread it evenly. More like make sure the feeder is closed, load her up, drive to where you want to start seeding, open the gate up, jump in the ATV and drive like a bat out of the hot place.

I knew I wanted to put 200 lbs of Timothy on 90 acres, I also know the acreage, the size, of each my 5 different fields. I wanted 2.2lbs of seed per acre, I started on a 30 acre field dumped 35lbs of seed into the hopper, set the gauge to get a good flow of seed and started driving. By doing 1/2 the 30 acres I had size of gauge opening matched up pretty good with the speed I needed to go. Heck almost nailed it, by the time I ran out of seed in the hopper I was short of 15 acres by about an acre.

Never had much luck spreading OG by itself. Shape of the seed means you have to open the gauge wide open or it plugs up. Can't drive that fast! Timothy is very easy to spread being very small, hard and round. I mix OG with Timothy, sand will work.

BCRick


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## FCF (Apr 23, 2010)

Have spread OG by itself with a Herd 750 3pt. spreader without any problems. The spreader has an agitator in it to keep the seed from "bridging" and the rate chart is very close to actual seeding rate.


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## The saint (Oct 4, 2015)

Thanks for the input I was thinking about mixing with sand as my spreader will not go that low to just do seed... Might be time for annew one.


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## Leggupfarms (Jun 30, 2014)

We frost seeded clover and rye last year into our big pasture and one of the hay fields where the alfalfa was fizzling in the middle. I just hook up the pull type spreader to the Kubota and had the boys sit in the back with the seed and feed it into the spreader as we drove along. There was a little snow on the ground so I could see the red seed pattern. Once we figured out the right speed it seemed to work well. Clover filled in the middle of the field and the pasture nicely. Plus the boys enjoyed dumping the seed.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

We have a little snow now and going to gather up some seed today and do some spreading tomorrow . actually have frozen ground under the snow , which is a rareity around here , so will use tractor and big spreader . Its better for the fact that you can have a much more consistant speed and the spreader is the same way .


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

It is still to early for frost seeding here


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

I was taught , and with very good luck , that froze ground is dead ground . Until the ground temp gets back to 50 degrees they'll be no germination , no growth . Therefore spreading seed on froze ground in January on , your on the down hill side of winter so when gound temp gets warmed up you want growth to start . So its better to be to early some times than to late .

Check out some of BC RICKS post on this subject . works in the north as well as here in ky .


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I was always thought the definition of frost seeding was not necessarily seating on frozen ground but seending in very early spring when the ground is freezing and thawing freezing and thawing. When the seed is applied at that time the contrasting freeze-thaw process absorbs the seed right into the ground. Kind of like soldering lead joint upside down.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

That is the thought process of frost seeding . I just take advantage of the dry or hard frozen ground to run equipment over . One thing I despise is a rough hay field !!! But getting seed on a light snow , on frozen ground , and yes , the ground will absorb it . Just to mention this frost seeding does not work for everything , Atleast here in western ky . Never had luck with alfalfa . Have experimented with TEFF . didn't work .


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

I think the difference is a frost seeding is done in the spring just before break up while what I do is called a dormant seeding. I lay down the seed in the fall after freeze up.

If you want an instant pasture or hayfield dormant or frost seed an annual Italian Rye Grass. Stuff literally grows anywhere, just throw it on the ground and bang, a field of grass. Too good for horses though, buggers will likely colic on spring growth. Even as hay might be too good for 'em.

I free feed my horses/cows late cut Timothy/OG. Fields also have a touch of Brome, smidge of Fescue, a sprinkling of Ladino/Raspberry Clover, a hint of Dandylion, horses love it, hoover it up to the last stick.

BCRick


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## FCF (Apr 23, 2010)

From Hay and Forage Grower:

http://hayandforage.com/article-514-Frost-seeding-line-on-the-move.html


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Found this article, thought it applied to the topic at hand:
http://articles.extension.org/pages/64559/frost-seeding:-a-cheap-alternative-to-improve-hay-and-pasture-land


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Would be an excellent time for frost seeding here, because it freezes every night aND thaws every afternoon. We're not spreading much seed but its real good weather for spreading manure early AM


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

I frost seed every year pasture and hay fields both i figure around 400 dollars isn't going to make me or break me so if it all comes up great if some of it come up that is good.

But i always have good pasture and good thick hay.


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## Charts (Apr 3, 2014)

Hey BCrick. Have you ever dormant planted on newer fields to fill some thin areas? If so did it fill in nicely? I'm out in your area and have never commented on this fourm before but I read and try to learn from others. I live out chief lake rd area of PG id love to hear your comments on filling new fields. Thanks


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

I'm not sure if I should have posted this in the "Wall of Shame" or in Vol's new seeder post, for a good contrast.

But here it is any way.


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

I bought this place 4 years ago. Use to have productive fields, husband died, widow got sharecroppers in. They did nothing but harvest ever diminishing returns for 6 years.

I got rid of the sharecroppers, started dormant seeding and spring fertilizing, sprayed broad leaf herbicide early spring once.

Did not have to spray, could of used just seeding to fill in bare spots and fertilizing to encourage tiller growth and choke out weeds, but wanted to quicken the process.

My method worked well. Dormant seeding and the proper fertilization will work to rejuvenate old and newer fields. Late fall seeding can be done by anyone with an atv mounted spreader. Proper fertilization is the key to stronger plants, promoting tiller growth and choking out weeds.

Start a yearly program of seeding and fertilization (based on soil tests)

Here's what I started with my first year, spring 2013 fert:

N 21.02

P 10.51

K 15.77

S 5.25

Applied at 286 pounds per acre equals:

N - 60lb per acre

P - 30lb

K - 45lb

S - 15lb

Of course I'm now using a different fert based on last falls soil test.

BCRick


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

DSLinc1017 said:


> I'm not sure if I should have posted this in the "Wall of Shame" or in Vol's new seeder post, for a good contrast.
> 
> But here it is any way.
> 
> ...


DSL-I am about to make the plunge for a seeder for my Kubota RTV 500, electric operated. Is this a Herd and is it really worth paying triple? You know after you get the electric shut off for the flow? This one has the agitator in it right? Won't have one without an agitator. Right now using the 500# hopper seeder but it has so much oil from fertilizer that I just wanted one that would mount on the receiver hitch and plug in and work. Might even spring for a razor gps set for a 11' width.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Hayman1 said:


> DSL-I am about to make the plunge for a seeder for my Kubota RTV 500, electric operated. Is this a Herd and is it really worth paying triple? You know after you get the electric shut off for the flow? This one has the agitator in it right? Won't have one without an agitator. Right now using the 500# hopper seeder but it has so much oil from fertilizer that I just wanted one that would mount on the receiver hitch and plug in and work. Might even spring for a razor gps set for a 11' width.


Hayman,
Yes you are correct, this unit is a herd. And yes it has an agitator. It is however not mine, but owned by the UVM Extention. I was in search of purchasing a broadcast spreader. During my resurch on frost seeding i contacted the Extention. They let me borrow theirs as long as I let them know what I did with it. 
I just finished seeding around 30 acres with this herd. It is the smallest model. It was easy to use and fairly accurate in adjusting the rate. Shutting off the flow can easily be done with a metal rod or bar. 
I was originally looking at a PTO driven unit, after using an electric unit the versatility makes better sense for my uses. It can be used, in my case on a golf cart, truck or tractor. 
I will be purchasing the I 92 electric. 
I will say that spreading OG works best with a good wind, as the seed is so light. Alfalfa and Timothy spreads further, wind or not. 
I was able to find an online store that sells the I 92 for $500.

Hope this helps,
Cheers, 
Michael


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Herd-GT77-ATV-1-2-Bushel-Electric-ATV-Broadcast-Seeder-Fertilizer-Spreader-/331793034602?hash=item4d4067ed6a:gSoAAOxyVX1RyhQg

Regards, Mike


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Vol said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Herd-GT77-ATV-1-2-Bushel-Electric-ATV-Broadcast-Seeder-Fertilizer-Spreader-/331793034602?hash=item4d4067ed6a:gSoAAOxyVX1RyhQg
> 
> Regards, Mike


This is the same as what I had strapped to my golf cart pictured in this thread. The I 92 has a bigger capacity. (If I'm reading the advertised description correctly)


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Well I have tried this frost seeding will have to report back.

All the talk about what kind do seeders slash spreaders to use.

I called and ordered fertilizer they mixed in 100 LBS smooth brome and 100LBS OF Timothy. They just added it to the fertilizer spreader. No extra cost to me.

Snowed on to the last two nights will drive it into the ground is my thought. Not much snow maybe one inch and slush ect. Just in time hope it works. The guy said 75% will take. To be determined! Thanks All


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## BCRick (Nov 22, 2015)

I dormant seeded timothy/orchard last fall after freeze up. Grass is up about 4-6", take looks ok. Had three bare areas staked, ran over them with the quad mounted seeder before going into the fields. Best I can judge is roughly, very roughly, a 15% take.

BCRick


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Reporting back. So the weather still has not really been the wormiest yet. Had a few 70 days and sunny. Walked out in field and couldn't see anything coming up. Got down on my hands and knees and looked than holly molly the grass is coming up. Ranging from ¼ to 5/8 tall. Not sure how much will take but at this point just backed out of field and will let it be.

At this point I will definitely do this again. Does save a little money and time spreading fertilizer and grass seed all at the same time. Than just return spreader and no other equipment to have and maintain.


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