# Questions from beginning hay farmer



## pikepickett (Dec 6, 2011)

Several questions to ask experienced hay growers. I live in southwest Louisiana and am wanting to start up my own hay farm.

1. What is the most drought tolerant type of hay to plant? My dad says jigg bermuda. Is this right?

2. In ideal conditions (fertilizer and rain), how many 4x5 round bales could I anticipate per acre if I did plant jigg bermuda?

3.What is the best net wrap round baler (simple to operate and work on) out there?

4. How much chicken litter do you recommend per acre of hay? Does chicken litter have to have immediate rain or water .....will it burn the grass?

5. What is the simplest and least expensive way to irrigate? I was thinking about digging a well and doing underground irrigation. Is this a good idea or not?

6. Would someone please explain a mower/conditioner to me. My dad does not use one in his hay production.

7.Is there a benefit to a draw bar type pull behind mower over a 3 point hitch side mower. My dad uses the 3 point type side mower, but I like the easy hookup concept of the draw bar pull behind mower.

8. How many times do you generally ted/fluff your hay before you roll it up into windrows and bale? My dad always teds at least once, but some of my friends don't ted at all. They just cut and roll up their windrows to ready for baling. I don't like the idea of this because I would be afraid that the hay wouldn't be fully dry. Do other people practice this also?

9. I am also interested in producing small squares for horse consumption. What do you recommend? Should I hire manual labor to pick up and stack or should I invest in an accumulator/grappler combo? If I go the accumulator/grappler route.....what is the best one to get?

Thank ya'll for the answers from experienced farmers.


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## Richardin52 (Aug 14, 2011)

Wow, lots of questions.

First I know nothing about bermuda grass. I am in the Northeast and grow Timothy, Orchard grass and clover. 
With regards to type of mower and tedding. Up here we have to ted hay because we get lots of rain. I do not use a mower conditioner myself but most people round me do.

I will mow after all dew is off and put the hay as wide and flat as my mower will allow, never winrow the hay. Then I let it wilt and the top dry, most of the time this takes the rest of the day but sometimes I can ted once in the afternoon. Next day I ted and again let the top wilt and dry before I ted it again. When it's ready we rake and bale.

The best thing I can say about your questions is a lot depends on your climate. There are places where they don't ted at all and then there are places hard prest to get three days without rain like where I am.

I do use chicken dressing but there again the stuff I get is at least 50% water so tons per acre would be a lot different than using the dry stuff. Best thing I can say is not to put it on too thick. Nice even light coat, see what you get for hay and then adjust.

Hope this helps


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Lots of questions! I'll take a stab at a few.
1. What is the most drought tolerant type of hay to plant? My dad says jigg bermuda. Is this right?
My opinion, common. I'm in your general area and my best field this year was a field of common. I planted a field of jiggs, but in late summer. It's coming up, but very slow mostly due to lack of moisture. I've never raised it till now, but when I asked about it from people that have it, they almost all told me, "Jiggs loves water." Take that for what it's worth.
2. In ideal conditions (fertilizer and rain), how many 4x5 round bales could I anticipate per acre if I did plant jigg bermuda?
About 6-8 tons/ac. Figure a 900lb bale depending on your baler, or thereabouts, so about 13-16 bales/ac/yr. Just an estimate.
3.What is the best net wrap round baler (simple to operate and work on) out there?
No idea, never used one.
4. How much chicken litter do you recommend per acre of hay? Does chicken litter have to have immediate rain or water .....will it burn the grass?
I wish I could get my hands on some, but the chicken houses are just a tad too far away from me to make it worthwhile. From folks I've talked to that do use it, they tell me they apply about 2 tons/ac. I'd advise keeping close tabs on the soil and plant tests for a while to make sure your getting what your grass needs if you do use it.
5. What is the simplest and least expensive way to irrigate? I was thinking about digging a well and doing underground irrigation. Is this a good idea or not?
Anyway you cut it, it ain't gonna be cheap, but like the rice farmers here do when they can, pump out of the river, and flood irrigate. Inefficient for hay, but cheap, or at least the cheapest way.
6. Would someone please explain a mower/conditioner to me. My dad does not use one in his hay production.
Never used one, and don't think it would help with bermuda. 
7.Is there a benefit to a draw bar type pull behind mower over a 3 point hitch side mower. My dad uses the 3 point type side mower, but I like the easy hookup concept of the draw bar pull behind mower.
Just depends. Depends on how much your doing in a day, how large the mower is, if your transporting over the road, how easy it to navigate your fields etc. I like a 3 point, but then again, I only cut 5-8 acres in a day, never more than 10.
8. How many times do you generally ted/fluff your hay before you roll it up into windrows and bale? My dad always teds at least once, but some of my friends don't ted at all. They just cut and roll up their windrows to ready for baling. I don't like the idea of this because I would be afraid that the hay wouldn't be fully dry. Do other people practice this also?
I only ted once, unless a little rain shower hits it, then I'll hit it again to turn it over and shake it. I like to ted as soon as I can after mowing, ideally with someone following me as I cut. I leave it alone and let the wind and sun do it's thing and try to not touch it so as not to lose any leaves. This year, as dry as it it was, a couple of times we cut and fluffed in the morning, raked the following morning, and started baling around, or just afternoon the next day. Made some very nice hay. Generally, that's a day early though. I'd get a tedder, if for no other reason but to potentially save some rained on hay. It's not a question of if it's gonna happen in Louisiana, but when. You'll appreciate a tedder then. In my opnion, if your not going to ted, then you should plan on raking twice. The second raking will be to turn the windrow over to expose damp spots to the wind and sun to fully cure. May not always have to do that, but plan on it, especially in a normal weather year for Louisiana.
9. I am also interested in producing small squares for horse consumption. What do you recommend? Should I hire manual labor to pick up and stack or should I invest in an accumulator/grappler combo? If I go the accumulator/grappler route.....what is the best one to get?
Good luck on tha labor thing. Any of the square handling systems you look into will have advantages and disadvantages, but they're all good products. Get what fits your budget and operation. Make sure you have some place to store these squares too. I use a drag type. It's cheaper, simpler, lighter, and works well with my equipment. I use an 8 bale type, because it's easier to load customer trailers with it than a 10. Just let your type of operation dictate what's best.
Best of luck,
Steve


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Several of your questions are extremely subjective. One guys best baler is a piece of junk to another. Same goes with how you handle your small bales, some guys swear by the accumulators that drag the bales on the ground while you couldn't give one to another guy. Far as handling those small squares, it depends on your area, around here it's getting harder and harder to get hay help, they want to run the tractor, drive the truck or whatever, but very few actually want to do manual labor. Add in the fact that most guys around here have gone with either rounds or large squares and it's hard to find somebody that actually wants to work and actually knows how to stack small squares.

I still bale some once in awhile for a lady I went to school with, they took the hitch off the baler and drop em on the ground yet then pay people to come along and pick em off the ground and stack on the wagon...to me that's just stupid. You had a hitch on the baler, you have the people their picking them up while you bale, hook the damn wagon behind the baler, and stop bending over so far to pick em all up. But that's the way her Dad always did it and that's the "best" way to do it far as she's concerned.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

You all are in much the same boat. 
Humid, Southern, Bermudagrass, more eastern soils and climate. 
You could have your own conference to answer all your mutual questions.

Louisiana has their own forage specialist who are truly knowledgeable. 
Texas has vhaby who has a wealth of knowledge that pertains to growing bermudagrasses in your soils and climate. Possibly he will chime in with some information.

I will print off your questions and answers and provide some thinking from a foreign land. Central Texas.

I will say that for you Jiggs bermudagrass may be a good choice, though Coastal bermudagrass is the industry standard. The current absolute tops in bermudagrass for the SE is Tifton 85. It will out yield Coastal by 15%. T-85 grass will produce 15% more gain than Coastal. That is a 30% advantage if you are feeding you own stock. 
Something you can not escape is 12% protein grass hay or 2.00% nitrogen. My math has that as removing 40 lbs of nitrogen per ton of hay. All the other essential elements come into play also.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I pretty much agree with what's been said already but I have some comments on a few of them.....

1. What is the most drought tolerant type of hay to plant? My dad says jigg bermuda. Is this right?

Jiggs is good but in my experience Tifton-85 did better this year. The most productive Jiggs I saw was irrigated. Jiggs is usually easier and cheaper to establish with tops where T-85 seems to like sprigging better. I completely agree with Steve on the Common. I've got a Bahia/Common field where the Bahia went dormant and the Common did very well this year

3.What is the best net wrap round baler (simple to operate and work on) out there?

I've got an old Krone fixed chamber baler (I don't have the net wrap version), it's basically a M&W baler. They both make a net wrap model. I don't think there is anything out there that's any simpler.

5. What is the simplest and least expensive way to irrigate? I was thinking about digging a well and doing underground irrigation. Is this a good idea or not?

Wait for rain and let nature do it. Like Steve said flood is next, but you need to laser-level your field, build a canal, etc. Everything I've read on putting in tape for a hay field tells me that it would cost you much more to establish and maintain it than you'd ever get out of it.

6. Would someone please explain a mower/conditioner to me. My dad does not use one in his hay production.

Just a mower (sickle, disc, or drum) with rollers to crush the stems or flails to open up the waxy coating and reduce drying time. Down here you don't really need one for grass.

7.Is there a benefit to a draw bar type pull behind mower over a 3 point hitch side mower. My dad uses the 3 point type side mower, but I like the easy hookup concept of the draw bar pull behind mower.

Easier to hook up, better manuverability, and you can haul around wider cutter. It also allows you to spend much more money and justify a larger tractor.

8. How many times do you generally ted/fluff your hay before you roll it up into windrows and bale? My dad always teds at least once, but some of my friends don't ted at all. They just cut and roll up their windrows to ready for baling. I don't like the idea of this because I would be afraid that the hay wouldn't be fully dry. Do other people practice this also?

The only reason I've got a tedder is because my neighbor got rid of the one I could borrow. When you need one, you really need one.....the rest of the time they just take up space. Mine usually just takes up space but its there if/when I need it.

9. I am also interested in producing small squares for horse consumption. What do you recommend? Should I hire manual labor to pick up and stack or should I invest in an accumulator/grappler combo? If I go the accumulator/grappler route.....what is the best one to get?

"Manual Labor.....good luck in finding any!!! I've got a 10 bale Hoelscher and I like it. I'd like to have the Steffen grapple with the rotator but not enough to spend the money for it. There are a lot of options for picking up small squares and all are easier than doing it by hand. It also depends on your baler, if I were running an inline, I'd want a Kuhn.

Good Luck!


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

1. What is the most drought tolerant type of hay to plant? My dad says jigg bermuda. Is this right?

Jiggs is good but in my experience Tifton-85 did better this year. The most productive Jiggs I saw was irrigated. Jiggs is usually easier and cheaper to establish with tops where T-85 seems to like sprigging better. I completely agree with Steve on the Common. I've got a Bahia/Common field where the Bahia went dormant and the Common did very well this year

HERE Jiggs has the reputation of being reserved for seepy ground.

I did not know about planting tops for Jiggs. Learned something new. 
At the beginning T-85 was touted as being able to plant through the entire season planting tops. That has not worked real well HERE, and sprigging roots is the hands down favorite method in our clay and our genuine summer droughts. 
The most reliable planting method for T-85 HERE has may be starting tops in the green house in transplant pots. Then in April planting the plugs using a tomato or tobacco transplanter.

HERE is in heavy clay, usually with a high shrink, and usually on calcareous soil. Definitely not East, Texas or SW LA.
Average rainfall 37" with maybe *28"* useable for bermudagrass production.
_Took a long dinner break!_


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Robert1617, pikepicket, dubltrubl, & THIMC

Hopefully Mike120 & I are in reasonable agreement. There will be some differences due to our differences in climate, soil and management needs.

Starting from the top.
1. Jiggs has not show to be any more drought tolerant than common. 
Jiggs does tolerate wet conditions better than Coastal.
I find the key to drought tolerance is fertility. With adequate nitrogen TAMU has gotten a ton of Dry matter on 3" of rain. HERE & this year, 2011, one ( 1 ) field yielded a ton of hay on 2.9" of real rain. It tested mostly as 9% CP not my goal of 12% CP.

2. Figuring 4 X 5 RB is 2.3 RBs/Ton.. Figure 40 lbs nitrogen per ton of hay you apply 300 lbs of N ( 1,000 lbs/A 32-0-0 fertilizer) 8 T/A X 2.3 = 18 bales/A

3. Each baler and each company has their own good and bad points, plus preferences. Vermeer has fewer moving parts and is built heavier. at least that was true in the past.

4. I hear 2 tons/A/yr works. Probably better to spread it in the dormant season. All hear say. I have seen 10 years of application have a positive crop response for 20 - 30 years!

5. Simple and least expensive do not fit Supplemental Irrigation. 
What you are talking about is to water the grass when needed. Problem is it is usually too late to economically water hay when the weather turns dry. 
IF we expect the summer to be dry we need to start watering in April. We simply not dump enough water on a dry soil in our July and August to make much of a difference. 
(Here I have had a flood and the fields under >6" of water in July and in August the were still showing signs of moisture stress. 
Better to invest that money in potash.

6. Mower Conditioners. From the beginning:

In early 1950's my Father bought system with a 7 ft pair of steel rollers hooked to the three point, that had a 7 ft IH mower attached to the right side. We would condition the hay we mowed the previous round. 
Then all the companies came out with a designed mower conditioner with a set of roller directly behind the sickle bar and the hay came out and was dropped in a windrow. Some conditioner rollers were rubber some were steel, some were a combination. Each was the ideal system, if you believed the sales pitch.
The idea is to crack the stem so the moisture has an avenue to escape. Works well with thick stemmed forages. 
The folks in Europe came up with a flail that beats the hay and makes an opening for the moisture. Works ok for the European Grasses and the grass hay grown north of the bermudagrass area. 
More see question # 8.

Three point hitch vs tow bar hitch. A 7 ft sickle mower is not too bad hooking to a three point hitch. A three point hitch 7 ft disk mower can try your patience. These are easier to change blades. With a drum mower and bermudagrass hay I need to turn or change the blades every 10 acres. Blades become too dull quickly in bermudagrass. 
By comparison a pull type is a joy to hook up. 
You can buy pull type mowers with no conditioning, which work well for bermudagrass. They leave the hay in a nice full width swath. 
Pull types can not mow real close to a ditch or stream to get the weeds. Wish my 7 ft disk mower was a 9 ft mower.

8. Tedder & Raking. 
Trying to dry hay with a rake will just beat the hay to a bundle of stems. Period!
For us in a humid climate we NEED as much hay as possible exposed to the direct rays of the sun. For those of us bordering the Gulf our summer sun is great for curing hay. Straight down & direct rays.

We want the hay to be laid out so as close to 100% of the ground is covered by down hay. Do this and 70% of the moisture will exit the hay before sunset through the little breathing holes in the leaves. For us if we have 5 hours of direct sun before sunset the hay will cure down to 42% moisture by sunset. Do this and most of the overnight respiration in the still living plant cells is prevented. 
The higher the yield the more important this is. The people up in Minnesota insist a wide swath is really needed, and not to worry about running on the down hay. To satisfy the doubters they suggest narrow the just enough to allow one wheel to run on the dirt. The have a multitude of reasons for this being the superior curing system. (They have measured the results with a micrometer. Beats opinion every time. )

Most growers reserve a tedder for after the hay gets rained on. Sometimes that is necessary but with a full width swath we can reduce drying time by one or two days.

Growers in the Arid West need not bother to read, as they do not need or desire a wide windrow let alone a full swath.

For us the weight of the damp hay in a windrow will push the hay down off the stubble and give ground contact to the hay TRYING to dry. 
2.3 T/A which is 81 small bales or 5.25 of your 4 X 5 RBs per acre needs an accumulation of 0.56" of pan evaporation, A 66% swath needs 0.70" and a tight windrow needs 2.17" of accumulated pan evaporation to cure to baling moisture. 
You will find the Custom balers drop the hay into a windrow and come back 5 days later to bale from that windrow.

Putting hay in the barn, cost me $0.87 /bale stacking up to 160 bale and hour. This using a NH 1003 stack wagon. I could be more productive with one of the larger stack wagons. It is the haul time that eats us up.

An accumulator is handy, especially loading a customer's flat trailer. Most of my hay goes out in a pickup truck and that means hand labor. That is no problem as long as I am loading from a stack in the barn.

Each system has it's unique advantages and disadvantages.

Dubletrubl I only cut 5-8 acres in a day, never more than 10. 
That works for me here. I can bale 5 maybe 7 acres of bermudagrass during the day starting when it is right on the border of being too damp and finishing as the leaf shatter becomes a concern. 
Here alfalfa does not yield as high as bermudagrass and I can bale 8 to 10 acres.

I only ted once, unless a little rain shower hits it, then I'll hit it again to turn it over and shake it. I like to ted as soon as I can after mowing, ideally with someone following me as I cut. I leave it alone and let the wind and sun do it's thing and try to not touch it so as not to lose any leaves. 
I agree whole heartedly on that. This year was different. Yield per acre per cutting was less and our humidity seldom got above 50%. This required the hay to be dropped in a windrow and raked into a windrow to bale out of as soon as I could get there. Many days I had less than an hour to bale between too damp and too dry. 
My usual method is to leave the hay out full width until the day before baling. The day before baling I rake the hay into a windrow, at first light, when there is dew on the ground. The day of baling I may need to start baling around 9 am and other times just about noon. I really hope for three good hours of baling time, just incase I need the extra time.

Oh dubltrubl mentions plant testing. I test each cutting from each field. I get a protein for the customers and a long list of essential elements for my fertility management.

Mlappin says One guys best baler is a piece of junk to another. Same goes with how you handle your small bales, some guys swear by the accumulators that drag the bales on the ground while you couldn't give one to another guy.
So true. The accumulator that drags the bales on the ground works well enough for a good bermudagrass sod, but I would not recommend it for alfalfa.

Some comments on Mike120's contribution. 
Common bermudagrass has it's advantages, but annual yield and drought production are not common's strong points. 
The horse owners love common for the high percentage of leaves and small stems.

Most years natural rain will do just fine. Some years the natural rain is way toooooooo much. From time to time we do have a dry summer. 
What people do not mention about irrigation is the salt buildup. If you can not leach the salts from the soil eventually those fields will become food only for scrub.

Again a Tedder has it's usefulness. It is a tool you need to learn to use if you are going to have one. One thing, do not use a tedder above 350 PTO rpm's! When I use a tedder at 540 rpm I am trying to knock all the leaves off so I will have less to bale and haul off to the gravel pit.


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## Lou (Dec 10, 2011)

Jigg like sandy soil and lots of water,, where T-85 does better with a clay type soil (like gumbo) here in southeast Texas,, common does well on both.. I grow Jigg and T-85,, if I get the rain I do well with jigg,, in a good year I will get five cutting on the Jigg,, but only four on the T-85 with the same weather and rain fall.. I use a 23-3-3 with trace minerals in the spring.. about 300 lbs p/a.. test the soil every other year.. for as the yield the Jigg about 10% more than the Texas T or T-85,,for as the equipment (had them all).. the only thing I have found,, is if you do the maintain they will all work well.. it's just what you get use too..I use mostly John Deere,, Lou


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Hopefully Mike120 & I are in reasonable agreement. There will be some differences due to our differences in climate, soil and management needs.


We are in agreement!



hay wilson in TX said:


> Better to invest that money in potash.


That simple fact is one of the most important things I have learned here. At first I questioned your approach with luxurious consumption and plant testing, but it made sense and I loaded the T-85 field last winter. I'm pretty much convinced that it's the main reason that field did so well this year. I'm pulling soil tests today, and I'm going to do it with all the fields this winter.



hay wilson in TX said:


> What you are talking about is to water the grass when needed. Problem is it is usually too late to economically water hay when the weather turns dry.
> IF we expect the summer to be dry we need to start watering in April. We simply not dump enough water on a dry soil in our July and August to make much of a difference.





hay wilson in TX said:


> What people do not mention about irrigation is the salt buildup. If you can not leach the salts from the soil eventually those fields will become food only for scrub.


Understanding soil moisture deficit and salt buildup are critical to having a successful irrigation program. Not enough is said about either. Typically, if you start watering after the 50% SMD point: 1.) You can't put enough on it to really bring it back; and 2.) You are spending a lot of money and effort to wash the dust off of the plants.



hay wilson in TX said:


> Common bermudagrass has it's advantages, but annual yield and drought production are not common's strong points. The horse owners love common for the high percentage of leaves and small stems.


Totally agree. It's drought tolerance is much better than Bahia and many other grasses. It is also very easy to establish because it can be seeded. It's still in my back pocket for a field I was going to sprig with T-85 last spring. If we have moisture this next spring all the spriggers are going to be very hard to book for smaller fields and I'm concerned that it's going to be hard to find enough spriggs to go around.


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