# The Future of Three-Tie Bales???



## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

What do you all expect to be the future of Three-Tie bales? 
Locally they have mostly been used by the exporters but last year there was no longer a premium for three tie bales over big bales such as 3x4.
The only three-tie bales put up last year were for large horse stables Everything else is two tie, round or big bales.

The reason I ask is I bought a bale wagon that works really well on three tie but not so well on two tie and am wondering if I am now stuck with it. My operation is all two tie or round bales so don't really have a need for a balewagon that only works on three tie. We could modify the balewagon to work well on two tie but not sure we want to head in that direction or not. If we can't sell it that may be our only option.

-rsc

The balewagon is a Freeman 6000


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

Couple of years ago, we got a load of 2 wire alfalfa bales in that were almost 48" long. they averaged 115# each. I threw a lot of hay then adn could actually pick them up and stack them 4 bales high. We hand unloaded 7 semi loads that day - the rest of them 40-70# bales. We had 7 guys on that crew that day, and I was the only one who would lift the bales. The rest of them took 2 people to move. How much does a 3 string bale weigh - 125-135# 
I personally don't see any future in 3 string bales. they are too small to pick up with convientional forklifts - the kind a normal feedstore might own. They are too large for a 120# woman or a 300# overwieght man to move. Either make large squares for tractors or forklifts, or make 40-60# bales. You cannot pay an employee to move bales that weigh over 120# without having made sure that your workman's comp insurance is paid.


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## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

Most the 3 tie grass bales are 120-130 lbs. The Stables that are still buying the 3 ties are still using them because they think they can't get reliable source of two tie for the same price and can't handle large squares or rounds. Most are feeding with hand trucks or UTV's and don't lift the bales. Lastly their storage was built for unloading with a roadrunner type block squeezes.

Has anyone ever hand any luck squeezing two tie bale blocks?? I have only used grapples or by hand I am wondering if a 6ft x 6ft block would work as well as the traditional 8x8 block of three tie.

-rsc


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

Take a trip to California and you will soon understand why there are so many three-tie balers and why they will be around for awhile. Three-ties were the "original big square" in the western states that produce the huge numbers of tons. People have soooo much money tied up in three tie equipment that it will take awhile for the big baler to take over some areas. Most three-ties have their own engine and are very expensive. Bale wagons, road runner squeezes, and multi kazillion dollar export hay presses were huge investments for guys in the three-tie business. There are many people tuned into that process including the California dairys right on down to the Florida hay salesman who has his customers convinced that a bale must have 3 strings to guarantee that it was western hay. Change is also a hard thing for some people.


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## kfarm_EC_IL (Aug 5, 2008)

I had a neighbor in the late 80s that was using a squeeze on 8 bales 2 tie. Came out of the bale accumlator as 4 bales. His wagons had a ladder rack at both ends. When I worked for him the biggest problem was if we needed to unload by hand. Hard to get the bales off the wagon because they were under pressure. Overall this worked pretty good at a time that I at least had never seen or heard of anything remotely like it.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

HallsHay is right that there is a large amount of money invested in 3 tie equipment in the west and somewhat in teh midwest, but there is almost no money invested in 3 tie equipment in the South. I have never even seen 3 tie bales that were baled in the South. We have seen Western bales brought in here by Brumfield's, but you don't see used 3 tie balers being advertised in Southern Farm magizines at all. Want proof - there is a nice looking 3 tie new holland baler with engine - 20,000 bales on ebay in arkansas right now for $12,000 with no takers. The 3 tie bales may stick around a while in the west, but even regular 2 tie bales have a very limited future nationwide unless they are packaged somehow ie, bale bandit, bale baron, stretch wrap, etc. It is just too hard to get enough bales in a truck otherwise to ship 22+ tons unless it is packaged somehow. And it doesn't matter how macho you are, bales over 60# are too heavy to handle day in and day out by hand, and as the nation moves to more small bale sales by feedstores, the price per bale becomes an issue, adn a lot of people just don't get the extra weight issue and like the low cost per bale of a 40-60# bale versus a 130# bale


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

There are still some government contracts that specify 3-tie bales. And there are a great deal of government hay contracts written each year. Most of the contracts are for out west, but it eliminates many smaller guys and many in the Midwest that would be interested in bidding.


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## hvy 1ton (Aug 22, 2008)

How hard is it to make 80lb bales with a 3 tie baler? Would they be strong enough to use with a stack wagon. I'm looking for a new(er) baler, looking at 2 or 3 tie twine balers. We still have a wire tied baler b/c my dad used to have contracts for 110lb native grass square bales sold by the ton. The wire is getting expensive and horse people don't want to deal with wire, but i would still like to be able to make heavy, strong bales. So does a 3 tie make sense for me?


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## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

How hard is it to make 80lb bales with a 3 tie baler? 
-It can be done the problem is they get awfully short. the idea in 3 string bales is you can maka a solid 4ft long bale the makes a 8ft square stack and that makes trucking easier. For 80 lbs two tie is the most common.

Would they be strong enough to use with a stack wagon.
-yes but way too short. An 80 lbs bale in two tie should be around 38-46 inches ideal for most automated stacking in 3 tie it would be much shorter like 28-38 inches (these a complete guesses and would vary depending on crop and density)

I'm looking for a new(er) baler, looking at 2 or 3 tie twine balers. We still have a wire tied baler b/c my dad used to have contracts for 110lb native grass square bales sold by the ton. The wire is getting expensive and horse people don't want to deal with wire, but i would still like to be able to make heavy, strong bales. So does a 3 tie make sense for me?
-Good 3 tie bales will weigh 110-130 lbs most hores people find them much too heavy to move around by hand and most horse people feed by hand.

-rsc


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## hay hauler (Feb 6, 2010)

We are making 80# grass bales in a two tie at 38" for a 3 wide wagon. Most of the two tie bales for a two wide wagon in this area are pushing 100+ pounds and around 46". I don’t have much experience with a squeeze but it seems to work for some with heavy tight 2 tie bales. Some will say that a two wide wagon will work well with an 80# bale but I think you need patients to do this. Two wide wagons work grate for mechanical unshackling but do not work will with an 80# bale. I would not be afraid at all to modify your wagon to work with 2 tie. A lot of them in our area are like this. I think it just takes a pipe wielded on the first table.


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## cdhayman (Jan 25, 2011)

the future of the 3-wire market just depends on the location. in southern colorado and on into new mexico and arizona, there is alot of 3-wire. in fact one of the largest hay operations in the U.S. which just happens to have about 26,000 acres of alfalfa does an awful lot of 3-wire. they do mostly 3/4 bales, but between the 3/4's and the 3-wire, they have around 40 balers. but the point is that in some areas it will continue, and others it will not, it just depends on the area and the type of demand.


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## rsksummers (Dec 14, 2010)

I realize that this is an old thread, but I am new here.

I am stacking 14x18 2 string bales with the Freeman 6000-- for over 15 yrs now. As long as the bales are solid, the freeman stacker does just fine, works even better with the 16x18, but bales must still be just as solid-- making them heavier.

Our alfalfa bales weigh a minimum of 75 lbs and grass at probably 80 to work nice in the 14x18.

I am confused why you would have to modify your stacker for 2 strings, my understanding is that if I ever seen a 3 string to stack, I just would flip a switch in the electronic board and go to stacking.

Hope this helps.
Randell


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## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

You are right, it is just a switch to tell the computer what stack pattern to use for either two or three string. The problem is with the two string pattern there are voids in the block if the bales are less than 4 ft long.
These voids make the blocks hard to handel more than once. We ususlly move the hay, two or three times before we are done with it.

The modification I am thinking about would change the block size from 8ft x 8ft to a 6ft x6ft block. Using 36 inch long 14x18 two string bales the stack pattern would be the same as the three string bales. The hope is to make a soild block with 3ft long bales. I can't sell 4ft long two string bales for a premium like the little bales.

Also we are very hilly, here on the Palouse, and I have some real problem getting the balewagon to go uphill when it is empty (not enough weight on the rear axle). Part of the modification woud end up shortening the wheel base and making the weight distribution a little better when less than full.

My concern is that its gonna make a unique balewagon that has about half the capacity of most blaewagons. Am I gonna hate only being able to haul 48 bales per load?

The question I keep asking myself is: Am I taking a good working bale wagon (just not working for what I want) and spending more money on it to make it do what I want it to do? or Should I just stick with accumulating the bales and loading/ unloading trailers with skidsteers. The problem with this is that it takes atleast two operators to be somewhat efficient. Trying to rely less on hired help.

Anyone want a 1996 Freeman 6000 balewagon with only 2000 hrs? Before I take the cutting torch to it and ruin it?


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## bartsfarm (Feb 3, 2011)

how much do you want. can you haul,I live in goldendale,wa southcentral part of the state.Details on your freeman


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## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

I would like $26,000 for it. You are about four hours from me, hauling it would be no problem. The balewagon is in good shape with just over 2000 hours. It has a cummins engine with an alison automatic transmission. Last summer the AC worked great.


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## rsksummers (Dec 14, 2010)

Riverside-- I think I understand your plan, closest I have come to what you are planning is that I have stacked 34 inch ( +/- ??) 14x18 bales that were made for NH stacker. I have gotten by if I move (by hand) the back bales forward every layer to take up some slack, but still leaves holes in the rail or tie bales. Its alot of work, but have done this several times to help some people out.

I know of a older machine that could be bought at a fraction of what you said you would sell your 6000 for, if you want to expierment before cutting up your darn near new machine. Its in Western Nebraska. For sale because guy went to shorter bales and NH stacker.

My machine is a 1976, and has a limited slip rear end. I have stacked on some pretty good hills without spinning under normal conditions.

Guess I should confess that I have considered switching to a bandit or something to stack lighter bales, more to do custom stacking than just my own. We have not had problems selling good hay in the heavy bales, but are finding more people that want to buy hay by the bale and say they would pay more for lighter bales ??? Cant understand it but the customer is always right-- ??? I think I would miss moving the 77 bales at one time and stacking and loading all at once, but??

Let us know how it all goes
Randell


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## bartsfarm (Feb 3, 2011)

I would like to take alook. You going to be around tommorow afternoon.Rich 1-509-250-2475


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## Riverside Cattle (Jun 4, 2008)

I should be around.


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## jeff outwest (Sep 13, 2009)

New Holland is getting back into the 3 tie market with a new baler being launched this season. I am worried about the health of Freeman??? I currently run Freeman but I am looking into trading for a Agco or Massey 1843. 3 ties dominate my area. 3 by 4 are just catching on. Good horse market nearby so I don't intend to change.


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## fulingyu (Jan 18, 2010)

Looks like New Hollands return to 3-tie balers will be PTO driven, which should mean that the price tag will much lower than previous 3-tie balers.YouTube - GartonTractor's Channel
See the link above.


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## hay hauler (Feb 6, 2010)

Looks like a nice machine! Anyone know anything about it?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Go to New Hollands website and look up the new 5080. Mike


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## fulingyu (Jan 18, 2010)

Here is a little more info about it.

http://www.garton-tractor.com/GartonDocuments/Garton%20Gazette%20January%202011a.pdf


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I think you guys better have another look at both the NH website, and the Garton tractor link. The BC5080 has been out for 3 years, and it is a 2 string machine, replaced the 580 baler when the whole line was updated. The Garton tractor link specifically says that the BC5080 is being converted by a fabrication shop (Wilkey Industries)..... I suppose there is quite a bit of torching and welding going on.

Rodney


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Rodney, The way I understand it, New Holland is having Wilkey do the modifications to the 5080. That announcement was by New Hollands forage specialists Ray Duke?


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## fulingyu (Jan 18, 2010)

Ditto NVDA Hayman. I wondered if it was just a local concept as well. But it would be really careless to use the New Holland name without the backing of the OEM to make such modifications. The literature from the garton newsletter seems to indicate that New Holland will be scourcing out the modifications that must be made for the 3-tie baler. I wonder if a 5080 is shipped as an incomplete unit, then finished at Wilkey Industries. Who knows how good it will be, but it makes sense to make the mods out west where 3-tie bales are still popular. However it does state that "New Holland" will re-enter the 3-tie market rather "Wilkey Holland" if you will. Below is the verbage from the newsletter. I like the idea of a pto driven 3 tie baler if it is much less expensive.

New Holland who has been building and retailing Square Balers for over 70 years
will re-enter the market with a new PTO driven baler with the popular 22 x 15 
inch chamber and 3 knotter tying system.
New Holland passed the 700,000 Baler produced and will be converting their
commercial baler with the help of a local fabrication shop, Wilkey Industries,
Turlock, CA to re-enter the 22 x 15 inch baler segment.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I wonder how many units per year they figure on converting. In the video it looked like the bale was bigger than the 16x18 bale. The whole thing makes me wonder about how many 3 string balers are new each year - it must be pretty low, cause NH had a 3 string baler when the BB series came out.... was it like a BB900? I've only ever touched the end product a few times, but wouldn't the 3 string baler take a lot of HP to run on the pto? Last I knew the Hesston had a 60-70HP engine on their 3 string. Seems to me the whole ordeal is only going to produce like 10-20 balers per year, and they may not hold up very well.

Rodney


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I know this thread is old but to answer one of the earlier questions:

Block stacking 2 tie bales is common, just not in US/Canada. In the UK they call it the flat 8 system and stack in 40, 48, 56, 64 bale stacks of 2 tie 14x18 bales (6x6ft stack). The bigger stacks are usually straw as they have high moisture/ light bales so the stacks are too unstable with grass hay.

They build by accumulator into 8's, then grab to stack. The layers are crossed and one or two have the H tie pattern built by hand or a 10 bale on edge layer. The stacks are moved by either towed stack retrievers or what you would call a squeeze either loader or 3 point mounted.

They will leave blocks in the field to sweat sometimes too.


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## haystax (Jul 24, 2010)

3 string is the only labor efficient method of putting up large tonnages of horse hay. We are in the middle of our 1st cutting of Timothy around here and everyone is routinely baling, stacking, and squeezing into barns over 10,000 bales per field, per day. That works out to right at 500ton/day.

Granted it takes at least 5 Freeman or 4 Hesston balers plus 2-3 balewagons to do this day in and day out but to accomplish the same productivity with a 2 string would almost double the equipment needed and the end result wouldn't be worth the hassle.

The bales all weigh exactly 100# and will go straight into a container or truck to Cali. No way could this be accomplished as efficiently with 2 string idiot bales. The 3x4 HD Krone bales may at some point replace the low end export hay but it will take a long time for the 3 string to die out on super premium hay.


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## jeff outwest (Sep 13, 2009)

Haystax, have heard you can no longer get an engine driven baler? I heard Ott' already have PTO driven balers on the lot. I haven't been to Fallon to see one. Wonder what kind of HP it will take to run it?


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