# Terra one thicker pasture



## Thad

I saw an advertisement for it. Looked it up on the computer and am interested. Has any one used it and if so what's your thoughts.


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## Mike120

My view is that it's another magic potion to feed the microbes. While the theory is great, they are really just trying to move some of your fertilizer dollars into their pockets and aren't giving you much value in return. There is no science to back up their claims. It's like herbal medicine for hayfields....Probably won't hurt, you'll feel good for a while, but it won't do any good either. Long-term your fertility will likely suffer.


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## vhaby

Mike120 said:


> My view is that it's another magic potion to feed the microbes. While the theory is great, they are really just trying to move some of your fertilizer dollars into their pockets and aren't giving you much value in return. There is no science to back up their claims. It's like herbal medicine for hayfields....Probably won't hurt, you'll feel good for a while, but it won't do any good either. Long-term your fertility will likely suffer.


What a nice way to describe a S_ O_!


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## Thad

That sounds about right to me. I think I will stick with my litter. Thanks!


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## Double T 1

Actually it is a great product! Regardless of what others say it works great! Way cheaper than fertilizer. I know of a guy in Georgia that bought it and put it on his meadows and in 18 days cut his meadows. Which was yesterday. I use it and my neighbors are trying it for the first time this year. got a meadow redy to cut now!


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## Mike120

Foliar feeding works well too....for a while. Unfortunately, the plants mine what else they need from the soil and eventually you end up with a large fertilizer bill because nothing will grow. Unfortunately, growing hay and other stuff involves a material balance....It takes X amount of NPK and other nutrients to grow Y tons of hay. This is removed with the hay. The happy microbes may replace some, but not all, that was removed and you get a second cutting, and so on. Depending on your soil you might get a couple of years out of the field....Fine if it belongs to someone else (that's an ethical issue), but there is a high probability the fertility will suffer and eventually you'll have to replace it if you want to continue growing decent-yield hay. There is also a pretty good probability that your weed count will increase significantly. If you want to use the stuff, you're better off grazing the land....at least some of the nutrients are returned to the soil.


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## dubltrubl

In a year, I typicaly have to add about 800 lbs/ac of nutrients to replace what's been removed by taking hay from the field. There is no way on this God's green earth 3 gals/ac of some kind of liquid is going to match that, I don't care what the claims are. Just my opinion.
Steve


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

I have a friend in east Texas that used Terra-one Thicker pasture on his Nomad alfalfa, he mixed it with his liquid fertilizer and put them on at the same time. His first cutting was so thick and tall that it kept winding up on the conditioner on the swather, he had to keep cutting it off with his pocket knife, finally just took off the conditioner and raked it a couple of times! The RFV value was 220, up from 150-160 last year, I dont know, sounds pretty good to me!


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## NDVA HAYMAN

What sounds too good to be true usually ??????. Seen em come and go for years and years. It ain't nothing new!


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## Vol

There is nothing that can reveal ones agricultural inexperience more than confirmation of a foliar fertilizer as a replacement for granular fertilizer. Not being mean.....just factual.

Regards, Mike


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

First to Hay master, it does'nt feed the microbes, it is the microbes, a blend of 25 that should be in the soil already.Second, it does'nt replace fertilizer, it helps ultilize it so you use less, more money in your pocket!To Mike, it's not "foliar" it does'nt go into the plant, it travels down the foliage into the soil. It was applied via a 360* pivot before fist growth and if you want, after each cutting, in this case, 3, at an increase of one ton per acre from last year.dd


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## Vol

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> First to Hay master, it does'nt feed the microbes, it is the microbes, a blend of 25 that should be in the soil already.Second, it does'nt replace fertilizer, it helps ultilize it so you use less, more money in your pocket!To Mike, it's not "foliar" it does'nt go into the plant, it travels down the foliage into the soil. It was applied via a 360* pivot before fist growth and if you want, after each cutting, in this case, 3, at an increase of one ton per acre from last year.dd


Whatever....

Giving all benefit of the doubt I went to the Terra One website and the first thing that came to mind was "Amway".

Regards, Mike


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## hog987

Vol said:


> Whatever....
> 
> Regards, Mike


Don't you think this comment is a bit rude. I would expect that the staff of this site would be a bit more polite.


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## Vol

hog987 said:


> Don't you think this comment is a bit rude. I would expect that the staff of this site would be a bit more polite.


I suppose it could be interpreted as rude....it was more of a weary "whatever" as it seems that we have to address this snake oil treatment on a twice a month basis.....I am not a politically correct type person.

Regards, Mike


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## Mike120

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> First to Hay master, it does'nt feed the microbes, it is the microbes, a blend of 25 that should be in the soil already.Second, it does'nt replace fertilizer, it helps ultilize it so you use less, more money in your pocket!To Mike, it's not "foliar" it does'nt go into the plant, it travels down the foliage into the soil. It was applied via a 360* pivot before fist growth and if you want, after each cutting, in this case, 3, at an increase of one ton per acre from last year.dd


I have to assume that you are telling the truth, as you know it, and are not merely repeating the sales information. That has no creditability. In the State of Texas commercial fertilizer is regulated through the Fertilizer Control Act of the Texas Agriculture Code. The Fertilizer Rules are formulated in the Texas Administrative Code and the Office of the Texas State Chemist "protects consumers and enhances agribusiness through its feed and fertilizer regulatory compliance program....". If it's a fertilizer, then it must pass tests certifing it's content before it is marketed, so when you buy fertilizer there is an excellent chance that you will get what you paid for. Also, with commercial fertilizer TAMU does many published studies on what works best for various crops in varoius soils in the State. With those two working in concert you can use what has been proven, with science, to work, and you know that you are buying real fertilizer.

Terra One is marketed as a "soil enhancement". It's not regulated, there's no science behind it, no long-term studies, no certifications, and no guarantees. There are pretty pictures, quotes from "happy customers" and other marketing babble.....along with the opportunity to buy a lot of it from them and become a dealer. As I pointed out before, "It's like herbal medicine for hayfields....Probably won't hurt, you'll feel good for a while, but it won't do any good either. Long-term your fertility will likely suffer". If you want to use it, go ahead. I wish you well and hope it does everything you think it will do. Myself, I'll stick to commercial fertilizer, read the results of scientific studies, and keep plugging along trying to grow and bale decent hay. I quit listening to sales fabrications years ago and I'm certainly not going to start now. By the way, they only give you "18 super vigorous strains of organic soil bacteria", instead of 25. Perhaps they'll give you a discount. Please let us know how it works out for you, and good luck.


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## vhaby

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> First to Hay master, it does'nt feed the microbes, it is the microbes, a blend of 25 that should be in the soil already.Second, it does'nt replace fertilizer, it helps ultilize it so you use less, more money in your pocket!To Mike, it's not "foliar" it does'nt go into the plant, it travels down the foliage into the soil. It was applied via a 360* pivot before fist growth and if you want, after each cutting, in this case, 3, at an increase of one ton per acre from last year.dd


Hmmm??? Did last year happen to be the seedling (first) year for this alfalfa? Seedling year yields are usually about one ton less than the succeeding couple of years. Regardless, without side by side replacated and statistically analyzed data one can never be be certain about cause and effect of anything applied to a crop, especially from one year without application to the next year with application of a product. I'm afraid you've been sold a bill of goods.

I'd be real curious to know where in East Texas there is a center pivot irrigated alfalfa field. East Texas soils generally are acid and although it can be done, it is difficult to locate soils in this region that will support alfalfa, although irrigation helps.


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## swmnhay

Had a nieghbor that used another fooo foo juice for yrs.His crops looked terible.He finally seen the light when he rented another farm that was highly fertilized and got alot more corn/beans off of it the first yr he had it.Well after following the FooFoo program for yrs his soil tests are terrible on his ground and now he is trying to build it with $600 a ton fertilizer when he was cutting back when it was $200 a ton. OUCH

I'd hat to guess what the FoooFooo Juice cost him.

Now he grid samples.Uses dry fert.Limes where needed.And his crops look great

No Fooo Fooo Jiice for me!!


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## Mike120

The curse of ignorance is that the victim rarely suspects.....Enlightenment is usually preceded by recognition and remediation. Sadly, we often don't know, what we don't know and thus, are all victims in a sense.


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## Vol

Mike120 said:


> The curse of ignorance is that the victim rarely suspects.....Enlightenment is usually preceded by recognition and remediation. Sadly, we often don't know, what we don't know and thus, are all victims in a sense.


Yes indeed....I hope that most of the young people who voted for obamas change platform can see more clearly now...and realize just how "really bad" the country is economically and continues to slide and flounder....obama got some much needed bad news today in the economic growth report.....slowest in over a year....yes we are backpedaling.

Regards, Mike


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## NDVA HAYMAN

I think that Mike 120 and Vhaby hit it on the head. When they start making the Foo Foo juice with alcohol ( hopefully before harvest) I will participate a little.


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Guys, again, it's not a fertilizer,nor is it meant to replace fertilizer, it's a blend of microbes that should already be in the soil, but do to things like drought,over grazing,and if you dont put enough fertilizer on for what you take off by farming or ranching, ect., the microbe population can diminish. Without them, you cant grow anything,the good lord or whoever you believe made this earth put them there.Yes our soil here is acidic,thats why Nomad alfalfa,its third year growth, and all the more reason to make sure all the microbes are in the soil, they help balance the PH. 'WIKIPEDIA DEFINATION'( In balanced soil, plants grow in an active and steady environment. The mineral content of the soil and its heartiful structure are important for their well-being, but it is the life in the earth that powers its cycles and provides its fertility. Without the activities of soil organisms, organic materials would accumulate and litter the soil surface, and there would be no food for plants. ) Hey,this is'nt new, it's been around a long time. It was first discoverd by Dr.Mokichi Okada in Japan in 1936, he idenified over 200 species of microbes, and idenified over 40 that are vital to plant growth.( I think hay is included in that ) When I was a kid I used to help do fall gather of the cattle off Forest Service pasture for the ZX Ranch in Paisley Or.The strawboss was a old rawhider, he still rubbed salt in the calves eyes for pink eye, and cut under the tail to bleed them if they had Larkspur poisoning. I guess its true,Cant teach an old dog new tricks......and hey, none of this came from an advertisment. dd


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## Vol

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> I guess its true,Cant teach an old dog new tricks...... dd


Silly rabbit......Trix are for kids.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay

Need some microbes?Haul some manure on it!


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## Mike120

I don't think anyone here doubts or questions soil ecology or the soil food web. I question the unproven claims of a marketer and the value of the product they are selling. I question if it really has benefits, and I question the value of those benefits against what the product costs. As Dr. Haby pointed out "Regardless, without side by side replacated and statistically analyzed data one can never be be certain about cause and effect of anything applied to a crop, especially from one year without application to the next year with application of a product."

I know a guy in SE Texas that sells "fish juce". Filtered fish scraps with all kinds of good nutrients for the soil. Guys I know in Louisiana spray molasses and water on their fields. I had a cousin who used to make a concoction containing beer and Coke to spray on his lawn. One of the oldest "soil improvers" is made in Hondo, TX by Medina called Medina Soil Activator. All of them claim to work, I've played around with all of them, and I've never seen anything that would convince me to spend much money to buy enough for a hay field or to skip the application of fertilizer. However, if you want to do it, have a blast and I hope it works for you. Before you do however, you might want to ask: "Why can't they supply any scientific data to support their claims?" Typically, it's because they don't have any and it's a lot cheaper to quote "happy customers" (who are likely dealers). Most of us "old dogs" really can learn new tricks. US agriculture is one of the most productive in the world and we didn't get here without learning new tricks all of the time. We also didn't get here by listening to the unproven claims of a snake oil salesman, but if you want to, that's your choice. We're only trying to help you save your money.


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

FYI. dd (RDH,BA, MEd)

Texas A & M http://organiclifestyles.tamu.edu/soil/microbeindex.html?vm=r&s=1

Permaculture Institute http://permaculture.org.au/2012/05/17/soil-microbes-help-save-plant-growing-input-costs-video/


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## swmnhay

As it says at end of article.FromTexas A & M
*Table 6. Testing Microbial Fertilizers and Soil Activators (Biostimulants)* 
Testimonials should be viewed with skepticism. Ask to see original data.
Test products in replicated plots with valid statistical designs
Test products across multiple soil types
Test products across locations, climate, etc.
Minimally: test product in strips in fields and measure yields, turf performance, etc.


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

I certainly agree. When I can, I will load some research picture outcomes, I personally completed with the help of some members of the Texas Cattle Raisers Association. The research observed 200 acreas each, same soil same herbicide & pesticide treatment in February. Plot 1 treated w/only microbial product that supports mycorrhizal fungi , Plot 2 treated w/only fertilizer, and Plott 3 untreated; all Tipton85 no grazing at this time. Quick summary of evidence found:
Plot 1 treated w/microbes, improved root structures evidence of mycorrhizal fungi, moisture in the soil, thicker greener leaves growing from the stalk closer to the ground, & importantly no grasshoppers.
Plot 2, fertilizer only, no depth to the root structures, plant green, tall, leaves attached up the stalk not at the base close to the soil and infested w/grasshoppers.
Plot 3, grass yellow, no height, runners of roots on top of soil easily dislodged, leaves well above soil level, grasshoppers present but not as many as w/Plot 2.

Recommendation, add Plot 4 to include microbes w/fertilizer.
Conclusion: Grasshoppers not present on Plot 1 due to increased nutrients that grasshopper physiology cannot tolerate. Pesticide added to Plot 2 & 3 (more cost). To date, Plot 1 has cut more hay and sustained more grazing than Plot 2 or 3. More results pending. Cost of microbial product $16.50 acre = $3300, Cost of liquid fertilizer $252 an acre avg $50,400. No production increase for Plot 2 from last year. Plot 1 savings of $47,100 savings in chemicals alone wiith improved production and increased grazing. Specifics in documentation in progress. dd


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## swmnhay

_It must make it taste pretty bad if grasshoppers won't eat it.







_


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## Nitram

My question would be do they come test the soil and count the microbe population adjusting for individual needs? If so have they EVER told someone the field is fine as is? If there is a determental loss of the little buggers the soil would have to be brought back to a healthy status first in which case the remnants of microbes would begin to flourish on its own IMHO. Martin


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## mlappin

When one of several labs I send soil samples to send a report back saying to use "Terra One Thicker pasture" then it will leave the land of foo foo juice and will enter the realm of something useful to me. Until then, I don't think so.

Local guy was pushing a carbon based product, he left that place and is working somewhere else. I talked to him lately, he said the other stuff was crap, the boss said to push it though as it had a very high profit to cost ratio, for the distributor that is.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

swmnhay said:


> Need some microbes?Haul some manure on it!


Well said. Best micro organisms you can get


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> Need some microbes?Haul some manure on it!


Well said. Also quit plowing them under, use a chisel plow if possible, better yet if possible go to all no-till and leave the residue where it does the most good. I'm sure an increase in nature's plow the earthworm also results in more microbes as well.


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## charlesmontgomery

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> Guys, again, it's not a fertilizer,nor is it meant to replace fertilizer, it's a blend of microbes that should already be in the soil, but do to things like drought,over grazing,and if you dont put enough fertilizer on for what you take off by farming or ranching, ect., the microbe population can diminish. Without them, you cant grow anything,the good lord or whoever you believe made this earth put them there.Yes our soil here is acidic,thats why Nomad alfalfa,its third year growth, and all the more reason to make sure all the microbes are in the soil, they help balance the PH. 'WIKIPEDIA DEFINATION'( In balanced soil, plants grow in an active and steady environment. The mineral content of the soil and its heartiful structure are important for their well-being, but it is the life in the earth that powers its cycles and provides its fertility. Without the activities of soil organisms, organic materials would accumulate and litter the soil surface, and there would be no food for plants. ) Hey,this is'nt new, it's been around a long time. It was first discoverd by Dr.Mokichi Okada in Japan in 1936, he idenified over 200 species of microbes, and idenified over 40 that are vital to plant growth.( I think hay is included in that ) When I was a kid I used to help do fall gather of the cattle off Forest Service pasture for the ZX Ranch in Paisley Or.The strawboss was a old rawhider, he still rubbed salt in the calves eyes for pink eye, and cut under the tail to bleed them if they had Larkspur poisoning. I guess its true,Cant teach an old dog new tricks......and hey, none of this came from an advertisment. dd


Every single post that you have made since joining this forum is an advertisement for Terra One. So in my opinion, you must be a drummer that sells that Terra-crap


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## Mike120

charlesmontgomery said:


> Every single post that you have made since joining this forum is an advertisement for Terra One. So in my opinion, you must be a drummer that sells that Terra-crap


Probably....or he's already bought a bunch of it and trying to get us to validate his folly. I assume he/she added his irrelevant degrees (BA + MEd = Art Teacher?) to impress us. Not sure what a RDA is......Registered Dental Assistant?

Mike (Vol) hit the nail on the head.......whatever!


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## Vol

Mike120 said:


> Probably....or he's already bought a bunch of it and trying to get us to validate his folly. I assume he/she added his irrelevant degrees (BA + MEd = Art Teacher?) to impress us. Not sure what a RDA is......Registered Dental Assistant?


That was good for a heartfelt laugh this morning.....thanks Mike!

Regards, Mike


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## charlesmontgomery

RDH= registered dental hygienist. So he or she cleans teeth and tries to clean out your pocket book with unproven products. And a master's degree in education ain't impressive at all to a farmer or for that matter even relevant.


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## vhaby

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> Yes our soil here is acidic,thats why Nomad alfalfa,its third year growth, and all the more reason to make sure all the microbes are in the soil, they help balance the PH. 'WIKIPEDIA DEFINATION'( In balanced soil, plants grow in an active and steady environment. The mineral content of the soil and its heartiful structure are important for their well-being, but it is the life in the earth that powers its cycles and provides its fertility. Without the activities of soil organisms, organic materials would accumulate and litter the soil surface, and there would be no food for plants...I guess its true,Cant teach an old dog new tricks......and hey, none of this came from an advertisment. dd


Your Wikipedia definition for a "balanced" soil (normal term here would be "soil at equilibrium") indicates that the author might need to procure a soils book and read it for a better understanding of what s/he is writing about. My acquaintances who have BA degrees, MEd degrees, and even Ph.D.s in education have never taken a class in agronomy, soil microbiology, soil chemistry, soil fertility, soil physics, soil pedology, soil mineralogy, soil classification, plant physiology, plant nutrition, crop production, etc.

Plants don't grow in a steady environment. They grow, complete their life cycle, die, and decay and in the process the native soil microbes mineralize the residue and add acidity to the soil that lowers pH (not PH). Harvested crops remove nutrients that must be replaced in order to maintain a fertile soil.

What in the soils world is meant by "heartfelt structure?" Again, please choose to quote about soil in terms that are commonly used in discussing soils.

Actually, the reverse of what you are describing occurs in the soil. Soils normally contain all the necessary micro organisms without having to add a quart, a gallon, or whatever comparatively small amount of them. Low populations of soil micro organisms exist for various reasons such as dry soil and lack of nutrients. When soils in these conditions rehydrate and are fertilized with nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and any of the at least 16 essential plant nutrients that might be deficient, the native populations of micro organisms, in the presence of adequate supply of decomposable vegetation, explode in numbers much faster than when a high priced small amount of them are added to the soil.

From Dr. Zuberer's web site that you provided to us:

Not only are the numbers of soil microbes generally very large, their combined mass (i.e. the soil microbial biomass) is also usually quite substantial. It can range from several hundred to thousands of pounds per acre of soil (Table 2).

*Table 2. Microbial Biomass in typical fertile soils*

*Microbial Wet wt. lbs/1000 sq ft*
*Group lbs/ac *
*lbs/ac*
Bacteria, 300-3,000, 12
Actinomycetes, 300-3,000, 17
Fungi, 500-5,000, 35
Protozoa, 50-200, 8
Algae, 10-1,500, 3

Data from Nelson, 1997b.

After seeing this in the web site that you referred to us, do you still think that you can add a minuscule amount of microbes per acre to a soil and have them do all that the claims indicate?

By the way, there are many of us "Old Dogs" on this forum that have learned a lot of new tricks in our lifetimes, and we are still learning. We keep up with the latest research in soil fertility, forage and hay production, and livestock production. The proven methodologies that we incorporate into our farms and ranches are those that have withstood the process of scientific peer review and have been accepted for publication and published in national and international scientific journals. The demonstration work and testimonials that you mention would never come close to being accepted for publication because this work is not replicated in time or location and cannot be statistically analyzed. People who produce and sell products such as you are pushing are simply trying to get into our billfolds. If any one of us is sufficiently foolish to believe and purchase this tomfoolery, we deserve the consequences.


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## Vol

Thanks Vincent for the "factual" and "professional" response......I think we can all rest our cases now.....well... maybe most of us.

Regards, Mike


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

youtube.com/embed/vas0mO4JnTE


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## Mike120

Well, that is a nice video of Dr. Deng, but I dont think any one is questioning the bacteria in soil or their benefits. The question is still: 1) What is the value of the product you're pushing? 2) Where is any scientific proof that the product delivers the stated value? If Dr. Deng delivered a rousing endorsement of Terra One Thicker Pasture, I'm sorry but I missed that part. Could you please post it?

Interestingly enough I was looking around and found your price list: http://thickerpasture.com/Buy-Now.html I assume that this was also the pricing for the product manufactured by Alpha Bio that didn't do what y'all said it would do. Is the product manufactured by Micro-TES really that much better or did they just give you a better price and tell you they had more Colony Forming Units? It's a bitch to repackage and market someone else's product when you don't have the technical background to do a proper due Diligence, but what the hell, only the customer suffers and you can find more of them.

I'd love to see your stuff work, but I ain't buying any magic potion just 'cause you say it works.......


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Sorry I haven't been around, my website has been going crazy! strange for this time of year.Terra-one is not affiliated with Micro-tes in any way. Alpha Bio produces all of the terra-One products, always has, they are one of the largest manufactures of Agricultural Microbes in the US, BASF, being the largest chemical company in the world, is the largest supplier. ( wonder why they would produce something that dosen't work ) That being said, I looked up Micro-tes, had nerver heard of them before, guess who they are quoting, your goverment agency that you trust so much,The United States Agriculture Department. I dont care if they are a competitor, as long as its good for the earth, I'm for it.

Micro-TES Super Soil BoosterTM

Microbial Soil Treatment 
SSB contains a complimentary blend of naturally occurring microorganisms that restore soil that has been damaged by overuse of chemical fertilizers which build-up in the soil.

The United States Department of Agriculture has determined that only 7% of the chemical fertilizers applied to crops are utilized by the plants while the remaining 93% becomes "locked" as insoluble inorganic salts. This build-up of insoluble chemicals is one of the main factors that cause soil to become poor and less able to support healthy plant growth. While these salts cannot be absorbed by the crops, they can be released in run-off caused by heavy rains into adjacent rivers and lakes. Satellite photos show increasing dead zones in regions of the world where major rivers empty into the ocean.

Chemical accumulation causes the natural soil microbes to decline thus further reducing soil viability. Soil microbes are necessary to convert organic and inorganic material into a bio-available form that the plant can use in order to grow and bear fruit. In addition, herbicides and pesticides can accumulate in the soil further damaging the natural soil microbial community

I know that you will say that Micro-tes dose'nt have any scientific proof of what thier saying, but I wonder how a company has stayed around since 1991, selling "Snake Oil" .

All of the sites that I post are ones I have found that are "Eco" friendly and have no connection to Terra-One or Alpha Bio. My website has all kinds of educational Videos, University studies,and Seminars that I have found on the web, pros and cons. there isn't alot of scietific words like foo foo juice, magic potion, or snake oil but If anyone would like some informational reading and educational videos, then stop by my site at http://www.agriculturalmicrobe.net/ .


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## terraceridge

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> The United States Department of Agriculture has determined that only 7% of the chemical fertilizers applied to crops are utilized by the plants while the remaining 93% becomes "locked" as insoluble inorganic salts. This build-up of insoluble chemicals is one of the main factors that cause soil to become poor and less able to support healthy plant growth. While these salts cannot be absorbed by the crops, they can be released in run-off caused by heavy rains into adjacent rivers and lakes. Satellite photos show increasing dead zones in regions of the world where major rivers empty into the ocean.


I disagree with that, both from my experience and from my book learning. This is how I understand it: First, there is very little, if any, nitrogen carryover (year to year) in my sandy soils. Second, protein content in hay is measured by multiplying the nitrogen percentage in hay by 6.25. Therefore, 10% protein hay is 1.6 percent nitrogen (10/6.25). If a yield of 2 tons per acre (per cutting) is achieved, there is 64 pounds of nitrogen in that hay. If 80 pounds of actual nitrogen was applied for that cutting, there was an 80% nitrogen recovery. Look at 2 hayfields (on sandy soil; I can't speak for clay) side by side. Apply a decent amount of nitrogen to the first one and none to the second. Calculate the yield and protein of both of them and tell me if the nitrogen was recovered.


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## Vol

ddnotfertilizer says, " I know that you will say that Micro-tes dose'nt have any scientific proof of what thier saying, but I wonder how a company has stayed around since 1991, selling "Snake Oil"."

By marketing to liberal hippy types....you know, "the greenies"....reference "the change" movement back in 2008.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay

Just like every other snake oil co.They just find more suckers.

Show me someone thats been using it for 10yrs then compare soil test before and after and I'll bet the soil fertility has dropped BIG TIME


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## mlappin

Again, when the labs I send my soil tests to recommend using it, then I will.

Lots of company's sell stuff that doesn't work, but they are still in business. Permatex still sells their spray on gasket remover, it hasn't changed in 20 years, compared to ZEP gasket remover the Permatex does as much good as spitting on the gasket.

Ever watch late night TV and all the ads for five minute "revolutionary" exercise machines? Some of those have been around for ever, they don't work, but they keep finding new suckers to buy it.

The government hasn't worked as intended for at least 50 years, yet a whole new group of Hope and change suckers were found in 2008.


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## vhaby

[sub]ddnotfertilizer,[/sub]

[sub]I'm not sorry for saying this to you, and I don't care what USDA reports you read, but you are dead wrong about only 7% of applied fertilizer being used by the crops. Research indicates up to 70 to 75% utilization of applied nitrogen at rates in the range of 45 to 50 lbs/acre per cutting of bermudagrass and the crop useage declines to about 50% at N rates nearer 100 lbs/ac per cutting for hybrid bermudagrasses. For phosphorus, the crop useage is around 25% with the remaining amount being tied up in the soil and slowly released for succeeding regrowth. Bermudagrasses are much more efficient regarding uptake of applied fertilizer potassium, sometimes taking up more than what they really need- a term referred to as "luxury consumption." Sure, some applied K can be tied up in soils that have a higher clay content, but the amount tied up is no where near 7%.[/sub]

[sub]If you are literate in the metric system, perhaps you would do better studying articles published in scientific journals such as the Agronomy Journal or comparable publications instead of the reports you link in your posts here. Even some of those links that you post you apparently have not closely read because they prove your argument wrong.[/sub]

[sub]And regarding your question about some soil amendment companies staying around for 20 + years, a sucker is born every minute. Although you are arguing with successful crop production people who have been around for more than 20 years by not using your amendment type products, you apparently aren't wanting to pay attention to their comments. We know what our soils need, and it is not what you are pushing. Add enough nitrogen to a soil that has an organic residue food source and the native soil microbe population explodes in growth. We don't need to add your magic microbe potion to make life in our soils work.[/sub]

[sub]Yes, I realize that I and others are wasting our time even commenting to you in this thread because you apparently only want to push a product on unsuspecting suckers.[/sub]


----------



## Mike120

Well, I guess you've been busy taking down all the old web sites. Now you can either try to continue pushing old product to new suckers or go through a new branding exercise and start selling new product to both old and new suckers. I see where you are now hiding the Domain Information on your new website......


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Like I said, My site has both pros & cons, You dont even acknowledge government agency ststistics. Those were from the EPA. Hippies, greenies ? A new customer told me, " keep posting, those guy's on Hay Talk are your best Salesmen".So, thanks and keep up the good work! Here's some more interesting government articles for your readers. dd

EPA US Goverment Envirmental protection Agency
Facts on NPS pollution
http://water.epa.gov/polwaste/nps/agriculture.cfm?vm=r&s=1

In the 2000 National Water Quality Inventory, states reported that agricultural nonpoint source (NPS) pollution was the leading source of water quality impacts on surveyed rivers and lakes, the second largest source of impairments to wetlands, and a major contributor to contamination of surveyed estuaries and ground water.
Agricultural activities that cause NPS pollution include poorly located or managed animal feeding operations; overgrazing; plowing too often or at the wrong time; and improper, excessive or poorly timed application of pesticides, irrigation water and fertilizer.


----------



## Vol

Where have I heard this same whine before?? Oh yeah, the dentist office. We are so delighted that you have based your information on trusted and informed agencies such as the EPA.

Regards, Mike


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## mlappin

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> In the 2000 National Water Quality Inventory, states reported that agricultural nonpoint source (NPS) pollution was the leading source of water quality impacts on surveyed rivers and lakes, the second largest source of impairments to wetlands, and a major contributor to contamination of surveyed estuaries and ground water.
> Agricultural activities that cause NPS pollution include poorly located or managed animal feeding operations; overgrazing; plowing too often or at the wrong time; and improper, excessive or poorly timed application of pesticides, irrigation water and fertilizer.


Your preaching to the choir here, we've been a hundred percent no-till for years now, even have a hayfield planted to specifically act as a buffer strip to catch any runoff in a major rain event. In 2008 we were the SJSWCD Conservation Farmer of the Year, this year Father will be going to the Indiana State Fair to receive the River Friendly Farmer award. Here, number 40.

While your product _might_ work, it's not fixing the problem but is a temporary bandaid. If the soil microbes are that depleted, maybe the cause of it should be addressed instead of artificially adding more.

We have several sharp cookies here, until they endorse it, I'll be using my money to follow the fertility recommendations of the soil labs.

Now if free samples were involved....


----------



## cwright

Typical sales methods point out the benefits and never mention the draw backs. 

Bacteria can increase nitrogen in soils is a fact. 

There is no free lunch or free ride so to speak. 

In order for the bacteria to introduce nitrogen to the soil it has to have a source of material to convert INTO nitrogen. The source for the conversion is the actual plant matter that is growing or the introduction of additional VERY high amounts of organic matter that will decompose. (Chicken litter, animal manure, straw/ grasses).

To make your product truly work you need to add tons of litter or whatever is growing needs to be chopped up very finely and scattered about. Then apply the microbes you are pushing. These microbes will help in the decomposition process and convert the dead plant materials to nitrogen and other nutrients that can be used in the next cycle.

The nitrogen will increase in the soil.

Or you can just skip the extra application of snake oil and leave the chopped up vegetable matter and let the natural occurring bacteria take care of it.

In your quest to sell product you are leaving out important facts.

 The excess tonnage of added "organic" materials will run off into streams, wetlands and other sensitive areas where natural occurring organisms will convert the material to nitrogen and other nutrients that may be detrimental to that particular area.

There is no free ride or free lunch. 



It IS snake oil, very expensive snake oil, and I won't apologize to say I have met very few sales persons that I have liked.

Buyer's beware, and do your research. 



Charles


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

miappin, congradulations, thats fantastic! You Should be Proud! Im afraid that you are the only one in the choir Though.dd

We are so delighted that you have based your information on trusted and informed agencies such as the EPA.

Regards, Mike

you are always asking for research proof..... where's yours for this.dd

To make your product truly work you need to add tons of litter or whatever is growing needs to be chopped up very finely and scattered about.
To make your product truly work you need to add tons of litter or whatever is growing needs to be chopped up very finely and scattered about.
Charles 

Or did you get it the same place as Terraceridge ?dd
 I disagree with that, both from my experience and from my book learning. This is how I understand it . 

vhaby, show me this" research "you are Quoting .dd
[sub]I'm not sorry for saying this to you, and I don't care what USDA reports you read, but you are dead wrong about only 7% of applied fertilizer being used by the crops. Research indicates up to 70 to 75% [/sub]

Heres a interesting site with some "research" facts.

CDC- Centers for desease control and prevention
Article on agriculture NPS pollution

http://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/other/agricultural/contamination.html?vm=r&s=1
In 2002, in the National Water Quality Inventory report to U.S. Congress, the states reported that agricultural nonpoint source (NPS) pollution is the leading cause of river and stream impairment and the second leading cause of impairment in lakes, ponds, and reservoirs (2).
Agricultural activities that cause nonpoint source pollution include:
•Poorly managed animal feeding operations
•Overgrazing
•Overworking the land (for example, plowing too often)
•Poorly managed and ineffective application of pesticides, irrigation water, and fertilizer


----------



## charlesmontgomery

vhaby said:


> [sub]ddnotfertilizer,[/sub]
> 
> [sub]I'm not sorry for saying this to you, and I don't care what USDA reports you read, but you are dead wrong about only 7% of applied fertilizer being used by the crops. Research indicates up to 70 to 75% utilization of applied nitrogen at rates in the range of 45 to 50 lbs/acre per cutting of bermudagrass and the crop useage declines to about 50% at N rates nearer 100 lbs/ac per cutting for hybrid bermudagrasses. For phosphorus, the crop useage is around 25% with the remaining amount being tied up in the soil and slowly released for succeeding regrowth. Bermudagrasses are much more efficient regarding uptake of applied fertilizer potassium, sometimes taking up more than what they really need- a term referred to as "luxury consumption." Sure, some applied K can be tied up in soils that have a higher clay content, but the amount tied up is no where near 7%.[/sub]


I have always applied 100 lbs of actual N after each cutting on my coastal bermuda. According to your comments above, I am only getting to utilize about 50 lbs of actual N from each application (I use ammonium nitrate and I am assuming no loss due to leaching, etc). So according to my calculations I can apply only 50 lbs of actual N per acre instead of my actual 100lbs of N per acre and end up only 15 lbs of N difference between the two different rates? If this is so, why would I ever want to apply 100 lbs of actual N again? In other words, does the additional 15 lbs of N produce enough extra forage to pay for the extra cost for the 50 lbs of N?

I thought that A&M always ( or at least used to) recommend 100 lbs of actual N after each cutting. I also thought that I had read in one of the A&M extension bulletins but can't find it right now that 300 lbs per acre of actual N was the most cost efficient dose.

Thanks for your contributions to this site.


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

To Charles Montgomery; 
Here is a link and excertt from TAMU, through the Texas
State Soil and Water Conservation Research Program. It looks like this N soil test will give you a better indication of how much N you really need and how much is being left unused in the soil. Hope this is of some help. ddnotfertilizer

http://n-fertilization.tamu.edu/media/1201/workplan.pdf?vm=r&s=1
Texas State Soil and Water Conservation Board
CWA §319(h) Nonpoint Source Grant Program
FY 2008 Project 08-04

The Texas Nonpoint Source Management Program (TCEQ and TSSWCB, 2005) states that "Nutrients, pesticides, and other pollutants can come from a variety of sources including over-fertilized fields, runoff from improperly managed animal operations and waste applications, inaccurate pesticide sprayer settings, and dozens of other sources." This project is directly aimed at reducing the potential for overapplying nitrogen (N) fertilizer based on current soil test methodology in Texas.

Traditional soil nitrogen tests determine only the inorganic N in soil in the form of NO3-N, but fail to account for plant available NH4-N, plus a mineralizable portion of the soil organic N pool. Organic matter in the soil provides plant-available N when soil microbes mineralize organic C. Since organic C and organic N are highly linked, organic N is broken down to plant available N. This very important component of soil microbiology has been traditionally under-appreciated because of the difficulty of accurately assessing mineralization with lab techniques, especially its contribution to providing N to enhance crop production. Since traditional soil tests do not recognize the contribution of available NH4-N or mineralizable soil N in the estimation of plant available N, current soil test recommendations are often higher than necessary, which result in overapplication of N fertilizer
Current soil test procedures and fertilizer N recommendations will be adjusted in this project by the inclusion of NH4-N analysis and a new method (1-day CO2-C), which uses soil microbial activity to rapidly estimate N mineralization. Since the majority of soil nutrients are cycled through the soil microbial biomass, testing soil microbial activity provides an excellent snapshot of the soil health prior to fertilization. Over many years of research, this method has reliably separated soils by their fertility. The more fertile the soil, the more CO2-C produced in 24 hr. Consequently, microbial ability to mineralize N from organic N is linked to the fertility of a given soil.

Anybody using this new soil test? Dose'nt sound like the old one is very reliable for checking N. I wouldnt use it unless you wanted to save money or not contribute to NPS.....dd notfertilizer


----------



## RCF

Just curios where exactly this nomad alfalfa is being grown in East Texas?


----------



## swmnhay

*Wow they spent *

*$492,806 *

on that 1 study.Holy crap.


----------



## ddNOTFERTILIZER

RCF Just curios where exactly this nomad alfalfa is being grown in East Texas?

dd Ten miles W of Mt. Vernon, the B test ranch is S of Mt.Pleasant

swmnhay

*Wow they spent

$492,806 *

on that 1 study.Holy crap

dd WOW !!Thats all you got from all that information? Guess if they spent some of that $ in your store, you'd be smiling, right?

miappin,(super moderator)

Ever watch late night TV and all the ads for five minute "revolutionary" exercise machines? Some of those have been around for ever, they don't work, but they keep finding new suckers to buy it.

dd If you are staying up late at night and looking at exercise machines on TV, just eat a few less cheeseburgers and go to bed earlier.


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## swmnhay

I don't like to see waste in Gubberment or schools.

Or waste on Fooo Fooo juice!

I'd love to see what the profit margin is on Foooo Foooo juice.

I could dip some pig poo out of nieghbors pit and water it down 100 to 1 and sell it for some ungodly price.But I would feel bad about screwing someone.


----------



## ddNOTFERTILIZER

To charlesmontgomery, Here is a site that gives more information on the test kit for measuring co2-c, it can be purchased at Gemplers in Iowa, and Murray FFA,kit part # RGM250. http://soilquality.org/indicators/respiration.html?vm=r&s=1 good luck! dd

swmnhay,

I don't like to see waste in Gubberment or schools.

Or waste on Fooo Fooo juice!

I'd love to see what the profit margin is on Foooo Foooo juice.

I could dip some pig poo out of nieghbors pit and water it down 100 to 1 and sell it for some ungodly price.But I would feel bad about screwing someone.

ddnotfertilizer,

swmnhay, from your spelling and post content, you might be better suited at digging pig poo.


----------



## swmnhay

*Spelling wasn't my best subject in school.







*

*Math and Ag were my best subjects.







*

*I dig in cow poo.I spread it on my fields for fertilizer.It helps me grow great crops.I'll take any animal poo over commercial fertilizer or Fooo Fooo juice.I do balance my fertilizer requirements with commercial fertilizer.*


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

swmnhay says,

*I dig in cow poo.I spread it on my fields for fertilizer.It helps me grow great crops.I'll take any animal poo over commercial fertilizer or Fooo Fooo juice.I do balance my fertilizer requirements with commercial fertilizer.*

*dd, Cow litter is a great source of N, and a excellent way to populate the Microbial Biomass, but very labor intense for large acreage.dd*


----------



## RCF

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> RCF Just curios where exactly this nomad alfalfa is being grown in East Texas?
> 
> dd Ten miles W of Mt. Vernon, the B test ranch is S of Mt.Pleasant


Mt. Vernon is west of Mt. Pleasant so do you mean east??? So its south of 30? Does this producer have a name? You can send me a message if you prefer I am curious to see how alfalfa is doing in this part of the world.


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Source; TAMU Agri Life EXstension
Soil microbe Nitrogen Cycling
http://www.extension.org/pages/18657/soil-microbial-nitrogen-cycling-for-organic-farms?vm=r&s=1
N Cycling
The soil N cycle is driven by soil organic matter (SOM), which contains approximately 50% carbon (C) and 5% N. Only 1 to 5% of the N in SOM is in a labile form, that is, it is present as microbes and/or can be readily used by microorganisms. Microbes break down the long polymers (complex chains of compounds) in SOM by secreting extracellular enzymes, or by absorbing and transforming these compounds into smaller forms that are later released. These smaller compounds called monomers, such as amino acids, are recycled and reused by a huge range of microbial populations. Predation of microbes by the soil fauna also releases labile nitrogen. Microbial damage and death, caused by stress, such as wet-dry or freeze-thaw cycles, also contribute to recycling of organic and mineral N. In addition, plants exude compounds out of the roots into the soil (root exudation) that help to break down organic matter, as do mycorrhizal fungi that are symbiotic on roots, and which extend hyphae into the surrounding soil matrix.
Through mineralization, microbes break down organic monomers and release N as ammonium (NH4+). Plants take up NH4+, and NH4+ has been shown to be an important source of N for plants on organic farms. But microbes compete very well with plant roots for NH4+: they are tiny, ubiquitous, and often congregate on organic matter. Nitrification (or ammonia oxidation) is one process by which microbes utilize NH4+; NH4+ is used as an energy source by ammonia-oxidizing microbes to produce nitrite (NO2-) that is usually quickly converted to nitrate (NO3-) by the process of nitrification. As with NH4+, both plants and microbes take up NO3-, to meet their N demand through the process of N immobilization.

What makes for highly efficient N cycling? When active microbial populations are rapidly mineralizing N from labile SOM, and at the same time, plant roots are taking up NH4+ and NO3- at rapid rates, then there can be very effective and efficient transfer of soil N to plants, with little potential for N loss. dd


----------



## ddNOTFERTILIZER

To Charles Montgomery,
This is Texas Plant and Soil lab's website, they do the co2-c soil test. dd

http://www.texasplantandsoillab.com/soil-testing.asp

Why are TPSL®'s tests and recommendations superior?

TPSL® uses the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Extraction Method because it mimics the way plants naturally take up nutrients in every soil type.

This method was developed in 1845 by Charles G.B. Daubeny of Oxford, England and was one of the first extraction methods. It was not until the 20th Century that analytical technologies advanced to allow the method to be further developed by the universities of Arizona and Florida, and others. TPSL® has continued to build upon and develop those earlier works for more than 40 years.

Utilizing the Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Extraction Method reveals the amounts of soil nutrients that are immediately available to the plant, as well as those nutrients that are "in reserve" or slowly-available


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## ddNOTFERTILIZER

To RCF, I don't give out my test sites,I will tell you this, it's the only alfalfa operation that I know of in this area that is cubing alfalfa and shipping it to Japan for human consumption, texas cut worms and all. If you are from this area, then you know where my other test site is, the B-Ranch south of Mt Pleasant.
This is from the Hay & Forage Grower
http://hayandforage.com/news/Alfalfa-Profitable-Texas?vm=r&s=1

Alfalfa has the potential to net more dollars per acre than any other traditional ag venture in East Texas, says Vincent Haby, a Texas Ag Experiment Station soil scientist.

He recently evaluated the profitability of alfalfa grown on four farms in four counties.

"Alfalfa has the potential to pay for farmland in East Texas," says Haby, who's based at Overton. "On one site in particular, net profit for alfalfa was more than $1,200 per acre over a four-year period."

The economic data used for the study were from on-farm alfalfa production evaluations in cooperation with local farmers. Haby selected the sites after locating willing cooperators whose fields had good drainage and aeration, and a subsoil pH of 5.5 or higher at depths to 48". dd


----------



## RCF

We are located in Sulphur Springs and I know of no alfalfa being grown successully south of 30 in North-East Texas. Also you do know you quoted Dr. Vincent Haby who ironically enough is vhaby on Haytalk who you have been arguing with about soils and microbes.


----------



## Mike120

RCF said:


> We are located in Sulphur Springs and I know of no alfalfa being grown successully south of 30 in North-East Texas. Also you do know you quoted Dr. Vincent Haby who ironically enough is vhaby on Haytalk who you have been arguing with about soils and microbes.


She (he, it) just cuts and pastes........doesn't read or understand. Typical snake oil sales person.


----------



## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Who can't read ? I said it's west of Mt. Vernon. The B-ranch on my site is in Bullard Tx., southeast of Mt. Pleasant .Don't Tell The Sharp Ranch that you can't grow alfalfa, they are also cubing alfalfa NW of Mt. Vernon, oh wait, you haven't heard of them?, well heck, I guess they don't exist either, or the Rodale Institute that tested "Thicker Pasture" and "Larger Harvest".I guess because all I know how to do is "cut&paste", that makes Dr. Haby's article wrong? Dang! Although it does seem like he should catch-up on some of TAMU's research.I haven't heard of a RCF in Sulfer Springs, so I guess that means that you don't............dd


----------



## somedevildawg

Wow they eat alfalfa in other countries? I guess....they wipe their arses with their hand in lots of em too. Wonder how that's prepared, like seaweed in sushi? BBQ, perhaps broiled in butter, my fav.....worms would just add a bit of spice..


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## scrapiron

ddNOTFERTILIZER : I have been reading this thread with some interest.

I would like to invite you, bring any and/or all of your products, to central FLORIDA and teach "us" how to grow alfalfa sucessfuly HERE, with or without your products, on our farm.
If your products work here, there wil be many hay growers using your products on several thousand acres locally.

scrapiron


----------



## swmnhay

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> swmnhay says,
> 
> *I dig in cow poo.I spread it on my fields for fertilizer.It helps me grow great crops.I'll take any animal poo over commercial fertilizer or Fooo Fooo juice.I do balance my fertilizer requirements with commercial fertilizer.*
> 
> *dd, Cow litter is a great source of N, and a excellent way to populate the Microbial Biomass, but very labor intense for large acreage.dd*


Actualy it is a better source of P & K along with Sulfer.From feedlot cattle.

Yea it's labor intensive but thats what we do on farms.We work.

manure for large acres?
I covered 350 acres with 10+ ton per acre.
Friend of mine does 1500 acres the same way.
nieghbor does 7000 acres with hog poo.Drag hose system.
Alot of farms here have enough manure for all P & K needs.

No fooo fooo juice for us.LOL


----------



## RCF

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> To RCF, I don't give out my test sites


I first wondered who your producers where to see if I knew of there operation and, to also see if I could find a source for alfalfa in the area. I know of a couple guys trying to grow it along I 30 and more west of Paris, TX. As for you not saying where your sites are I know of the Sharp Ranch and they are up in the Hagansport area and, not really a big secret. Also a more apt description of Bullard would be south of Tyler. Which according to your quote from the previous response to me you would not give away any of your sites.

Honestly I have not heard of the "Rodale Institute" but, after looking them up I think I would stick with either using TAMU or the Noble Foundation when talking to Texans and, not some organic farming change the world type of site.

I never said Dr. Haby's article was wrong I just simply pointed out that one of the posters that you did not agree with was the man who you latered quoted and used one of his articles for justification of your product that I have not once mentioned or questioned.

I also do not care if you have heard of our operation or not we stay plenty busy as it is. My intentions started out to find an alfalfa grow around Mount Vernon who was succefully growing alfalfa to learn from them and help move there product to the many dairy producers in this area.


----------



## ddNOTFERTILIZER

Here we go, cut and paste.dd

http://www.articlesbase.com/non-fiction-articles/eat-more-alfalfa-98169.html

Alfalfa has a long history of folk use in Europe as a spring tonic and an appetite stimulant. Alfalfa has been used by the Chinese since the sixth century to treat kidney stones. It has an age-old reputation as a nutritious food. Traditionally the whole herb and leaf have been used.

Because of a long root system which absorbs minerals, alfalfa is an outstanding source of nutrition with calcium, magnesium, potassium, beta-carotene, chlorophyll and vitamins A, B-12, C, D, E and K. The leaves contain all eight of the essential amino acids.

Alfalfa sprouts are easy to grow and are highly nutritious. They are great on salads and sandwiches. You can buy sprouts from many grocery stores, but just for fun, you should grow them for yourself at least once. There is something magic about watching seeds grow in a glass jar. Every day they get a little bigger, children love it.


----------



## swmnhay

ddNOTFERTILIZER said:


> To RCF, I don't give out my test sites,I will tell you this, it's the only alfalfa operation that I know of in this area that is cubing alfalfa and shipping it to Japan for human consumption .


Realy?Cubing alfalfa for human consumtion.

Ohh now you say alfalfa sprouts.Not even close to the same thing.

http://www.articlesb...alfa-98169.html

Alfalfa has a long history of folk use in Europe as a spring tonic and an appetite stimulant. Alfalfa has been used by the Chinese since the sixth century to treat kidney stones. It has an age-old reputation as a nutritious food. Traditionally the whole herb and leaf have been used.

Because of a long root system which absorbs minerals, alfalfa is an outstanding source of nutrition with calcium, magnesium, potassium, beta-carotene, chlorophyll and vitamins A, B-12, C, D, E and K. The leaves contain all eight of the essential amino acids.

Alfalfa sprouts are easy to grow and are highly nutritious. They are great on salads and sandwiches. You can buy sprouts from many grocery stores, but just for fun, you should grow them for yourself at least once. There is something magic about watching seeds grow in a glass jar. Every day they get a little bigger, children love it.


----------



## Mike120

RCF said:


> Honestly I have not heard of the "Rodale Institute" but, after looking them up I think I would stick with either using TAMU or the Noble Foundation when talking to Texans and, not some organic farming change the world type of site.


When I lived in NJ, I used to go past their farm on my way to Reading PA. They did some interesting work on some of the original organic concepts there, I've read a number of their early works, and seen some of their results. Most of their revenues come from their book publishing business though and they publish for a lot of crackpots. They do however, perform some legitimate research. Unfortunately because of their association with the organic lunitic fringe and their weird publications the good they do is often lost. They are also quoted quite often by people selling snake oil in an effort to add legitimacy to worthless products. That makes it very difficult to figure out what is fact or fiction.

Interestingly enough, some of the organic farms in that neck of the woods do quite well, but it takes a long time to adapt to their way of growing things, it doesn't involve the use of foo foo juice, and they don't typically get the yields of traditional farming. They do however, serve a niche market and may, or may not, improve sustainability. Unfortunately, a lot of tree huggers with organic gardens and dreams of a utopian paradise, along with charlatans selling magic potions as a way to get there, have shrouded any real discoveries in a cloud of BS.


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## FAST

Uh, we have a paper on Forage Grasses, if you're interested. It is available on our new webcyte: http://asktheplant.com/?p=32 See what you think.


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## Vol

FAST said:


> Uh, we have a paper on Forage Grasses, if you're interested. It is available on our new webcyte: http://asktheplant.com/?p=32 See what you think.


Anyone who would start a written sentence with "Uh", does not warrant one second of my time.

Regards, Mike


----------



## mlappin

Vol said:


> Anyone who would start a written sentence with "Uh", does not warrant one second of my time.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Uh dude, why not man?


----------



## NDVA HAYMAN

Got my laugh for the day!


----------



## FAST

Sorry to have intruded.


----------



## Vol

FAST said:


> Sorry to have intruded.


I assumed that you were with the fertilizer person that has made a habit of irritating on here of recent. When you started your sentence with "Uh" I was sure you were connected with her.....but maybe your are not and if so I apologize. I may have jumped to conclusions.....are you connected with Terra One?

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Fast,
I went to your website and I think you appear to be legitimate so I offer you my sincerest apologies......I over-reacted this morning when I saw your post and for that I apologize. As I stated earlier, some of us have become weary with this Terra One hype that this fertilizer person has pestered(plagued) some of us with and I wrongly assumed that you were in part or wholly connected. If I read correctly and you offer plant testing services, this is a invaluable tool that all hay growers need. I utilize a service here in Tennessee and it is critical for proper management. Good Luck and I hope that you can pick up some new clients from this website.

Sincerely, Mike

P.S. I prefer my crow on the done side.


----------



## slowzuki

Since you say feed lot I'm picturing dry manure, what kind of equipment are you handling 3500+ tons of dry manure with? Our little spreader would take about 700 trips and the bed chain would have broken about 30 times. On fields far from the barn I'm lucky to get 2 loads an hour.



swmnhay said:


> Actualy it is a better source of P & K along with Sulfer.From feedlot cattle.
> 
> Yea it's labor intensive but thats what we do on farms.We work.
> 
> manure for large acres?
> I covered 350 acres with 10+ ton per acre.
> Friend of mine does 1500 acres the same way.
> nieghbor does 7000 acres with hog poo.Drag hose system.
> Alot of farms here have enough manure for all P & K needs.
> 
> No fooo fooo juice for us.LOL


----------



## Will 400m

There's not alot of BIG farms around here but the last place I worked he would leave a tri axle under the barn cleaner at 25 tons a shot and when it got full dump on the edge of the fields in piles. When it got cold enough we would run a loader and a tractor with a big spreader and go all out for a week or two and spread it all. Chicken litter is much more common around here same idea just the chicken farms delivers it and you dont need nearly enough. I like chicken litter as the cows arnt eating there own poop and all the enzimes and stuf that comes from it. Think about it would you want to poop next to your tomato plants and eat the tomato's?


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## FAST

Beware the Sodium also the Nitrogen - Carbon ratios.


----------



## vhaby

FAST said:


> Beware the Sodium also the Nitrogen - Carbon ratios.


No need to beware of sodium or the nitrogen - carbon ratios in poultry (broiler) litter (BL). One's pocketbook usually will limit the amount of BL that can be applied per acre. I know of people who have applied up to 8 tons of BL on sandy loam type soils for hybrid bermudagrass production with no problem plant nutritionally. The nitrogen to carbon ratios will take care of themselves over time.

What one needs to be concerned with when applying BL is to apply the litter to satisfy the phosphorus needs of the plants/soils so to avoid an excessive buildup of phosphorus in the soil. In a low P testing soil, 2-3 tons of BL will not be excessive. It is important to test the BL to know it's P concentration before deciding how much to apply per acre, if you can.


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## FAST

Was thinking in terms of cow manure...


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## terraceridge

vhaby said:


> No need to beware of sodium or the nitrogen - carbon ratios in poultry (broiler) litter (BL). One's pocketbook usually will limit the amount of BL that can be applied per acre. I know of people who have applied up to 8 tons of BL on sandy loam type soils for hybrid bermudagrass production with no problem plant nutritionally. The nitrogen to carbon ratios will take care of themselves over time.
> 
> What one needs to be concerned with when applying BL is to apply the litter to satisfy the phosphorus needs of the plants/soils so to avoid an excessive buildup of phosphorus in the soil. In a low P testing soil, 2-3 tons of BL will not be excessive. It is important to test the BL to know it's P concentration before deciding how much to apply per acre, if you can.


What is the consequence of an excessive buildup of phosphorous?


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## vhaby

FAST said:


> Was thinking in terms of cow manure...


My answer is the same for cattle manure. I've seen successful crops grown on heavy clay soils that have received in excess of 50 tons/acre bovine manure incorporated into the soil in research plots. Cattle manure has lower plant nutrient content than broiler litter.


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## vhaby

terraceridge said:


> What is the consequence of an excessive buildup of phosphorous?


If you don't mind, I'll attempt to answer your question in another topic titled:

CONSEQUENCES OF EXCESS SOIL PHOSPHORUS BUILDUP

I'm tired of all the back an forth no win arguments on "Terra one thicker pasture." An old soils professor once warned us "not to get into a p'ing match with a skunk, because you're likely to lose."


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## somedevildawg

jallen said:


> http://www.hulu.com/watch/191666
> 
> Worth a watch.


Is this like "you have to pass the bill to find out what's in the bill" I don't want to have to pay 7.99 for what......something you thought was interesting, wth is it? I should say I'm not a hulu subscriber, nor do I want to be....put it on YouTube I sell hay for a living....


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## swmnhay

slowzuki said:


> Since you say feed lot I'm picturing dry manure, what kind of equipment are you handling 3500+ tons of dry manure with? Our little spreader would take about 700 trips and the bed chain would have broken about 30 times. On fields far from the barn I'm lucky to get 2 loads an hour.


2500 ton is being spread with 800? bu spreader trucks.Knight spreders with the twin vertical beaters.It is feedlot manure with stalks used for bedding.It is not dry.About 20-25 ton per load







.

The rest I spread with a 320 bu NI spreader.On different farm.

Most all of this is hauled less then 1 mile so that helps!









Being next to a 10,000 hd feedlot helps.I trade stalks for manure.


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## urednecku

jallen said:


> http://www.hulu.com/watch/191666
> 
> Worth a watch.


a "Big Bang" made the soil??


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## FAST

Mike - Did you receive my reply of the 20th to yours?


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## Vol

FAST said:


> Mike - Did you receive my reply of the 20th to yours?


No, I did not receive anything that I am aware of...

Regards, Mike


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## FAST

Umm, I responded to your quite gracious note, not understanding that it was actually a posting upon this forum, at the time. That response to you is not really for public consumption. It seems that every forum operates differently and I am still not at all clear as to how this one operates.

Accordingly, would you mind very much sending your private e-mail address to: [email protected] in order that I might forward my previous response to you, directly and privately?

F-


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## Vol

Will do. Whenever you want to send someone on this site a confidential word, just click the "envelope" symbol on the very top of the page.....and this will allow you to send a "PM"(private message).

Regards, Mike


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## jallen

somedevildawg said:


> a "Big Bang" made the soil??


I know, I know. It wouldn't have been my first choice for an opening scene either, nor would I have started with that background story, but once you get past the first few minutes it gets much better.


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