# My Quarantine And Vaccination Plan.



## Vol

From Growing Tennessee.

Regards, Mike

https://tennessee.growingamerica.com/features/2021/01/my-quarantine-and-vaccination-plan


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## r82230

My group was approved Monday of this week to get shots but...........................................can't get a time slot. Our almost famous Gov, says "it's complicated" on the reason's Michigan is lagging so far behind the national average (which seems also slow at around a third of doses administered). She also keeps blaming Fed for not releasing more doses, which I don't understand, why cry about that when you are setting on over 3/4's of the doses (200K out of over 800K in procession) you have already.

Just talked to a teacher yesterday that got through the web sign-in portal, her time slot 16 days out (January 28th). Here it seems there is way to much finger pointing verses rolling up the sleeves and injecting. A county near by, the Sheriff tried to get involved, he wanted a large parking lot area, with a drive through building utilized (absolutely no tents ). That seemed like a a tall order, what was he planning to take over a car dealership that has an oil change facility?

Larry


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## stack em up

Not sure how Minnesota’s rollout of the vaccine is going. Dad got a letter from Mayo that he is able to get it when he wants, not sure about Mom. If it’s anything government run, you can guarantee it’s going to get messed up.


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## KS John

Think I will just pass. I became more politically aware during the Clinton years and not much if anything has convinced me to trust the government. Especially when things are rushed.

As Larry would say I may have shorted you on the 2 cents.


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## weatherman

I was a pin cushion while serving in the military for 20 years. Got more shots then most when deployed. My head jerks to the left and then to the right from time to time. I think I will wait this one out.


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## mlappin

No rush here either, takes years for side effects to show up. Not getting a vaccination that didn't exist or was even thought might ever be needed less than a year ago.

Our family doc is pushing hard for my wife to get it considering her congenital cardiac issues.


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## haybaler101

I got notice I could get mine right when it came out because I am a firefighter. I think I wil wait. Several guys on department got theirs and will get second shot next week. Interesting to see what effects they have. My parents are in their 70's and should be up next in Indiana and I am encouraging them to get it ASAP just because I think COVID-19 would be a lot worse for them than any side effects. Plus my dad is a real pansy ass and would never survive it. Dad's brother and his wife just had Covid right before Christmas, they are both 80. He thought he was going to die for a couple days but was never hospitalized and took him about 2 weeks to get his strength back (he was still working at a coop full time and a lot more active than my dad). His wife has congestive heart failure and has been fat and lazy all her life and she never missed a beat! I definitely would not recommend anyone of child bearing age to get the vaccine because who knows what is in the crap.


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## mlappin

We have a Korean war veteran at our local Legion that had it, was hospitalized for a few days and that was it, once they released him was back to his old routine in days


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## Vol

The death toll from Covid here in my county is alarmingly high during the last 30 days. The local funeral home is only doing private graveside services. No receiving at the funeral home, and if a loved one passes it will be about a week before they can be interred.

Here, mostly the aged has died from Covid, but there are plenty of 50-60 year olds dying and a few in the forties. Yeah, you hear of a few older folks getting Covid and having mild symptoms, but a lot more are going to the grave.

Regards, Mike


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## vhaby

My wife persisted with calling hospitals, our physician, the Texas Health Dep't, etc. We finally received a time slot with one of the hospital's clinics and received the first Moderna vaccine shot on Jan. 7th. Had absolutely no side effects; in fact, while my wife has painful reactions to ordinary flu shots, she didn't even feel pain at the injection site the next day from this anti Covid vaccine. Second shot is scheduled for Feb. 4th. At our ages, even though we live in a gated community of two people behind our locked ranch gate, we can't afford to be afraid of taking these shots.

Vincent


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## Cactus50

Vaccines don't last long here, by the time you find out some place has it... it's gone. I'm on a waiting list with two pharmacies and my Dr's office. Our county has a low infection and death rate but the next county over is Bexar which is where San Antonio is located and they posted they're were 3000 deaths Friday.


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## vhaby

I don't 'like' that there were 3,000 deaths attributed to COVID in San Antonio, but I like that you are continuing to pursue getting vaccinated. Most of my siblings still live in Medina County which borders Bexar County/San Antonio. Glad to see you active on HT.

Vincent


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## JD3430

I know it sounds controversial, but I think the death numbers are exaggerated. From what I have seen, many people who die and had any degree of covid, including no symptoms or sickness, were classified as Covid deaths. Even heart attacks, car accidents, gun short wounds, etc.


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## slowzuki

That's been disproven.



JD3430 said:


> I know it sounds controversial, but I think the death numbers are exaggerated. From what I have seen, many people who die and had any degree of covid, including no symptoms or sickness, were classified as Covid deaths. Even heart attacks, car accidents, gun short wounds, etc.


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## Cactus50

I will share this experience a couple of friends of ours had regarding Covid testing:

Back in early April they went to their local clinic to get tested; checked in and then sat waiting to be called back for testing. The wait was longer then they anticipated and the waiting room started filling up with other folks there for testing or other medical reasons. My friends started getting nervous having such close contact with so many people so they left. A little over a week later they received notices in the mail that they tested positive for Covid. True story. Not saying the numbers are exaggerated just saying this happened to them.


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## r82230

This is from my local paper (today's edition verbatim):

*"Five Michigan counties - Clinton, Eaton, Genesee, Ingham, and Washtenaw - participate in the CDC's Influenza Hospitalization Surveillance Network. From Oct. 1, 2020 through Jan. 2, 2021 those counties have reported only five adult influenza-associated hospitalizations. That compares to about 170 hospitalizations for the same period a year ago.*

*In Lapeer County, according to records provided by Lapeer County Health Dept., there were 436 confirmed cases the flu during the 2019-2020 flu season, Oct. 1, 2019 through April 30, 2020. The vast majority those cases, 369, occurred in January through March of last year. For the current flu season that started on Oct. 1, 2020 through December 31, 2020 Lapeer County has reported only 1 confirmed case of the flu. That compares to 67 confirmed cases in the same period in 2019.*

*Whether measured on a national, state or local scale, there just isn't much flu around this season. Or is it just getting reported as COVID?*

*Both Dr. Zajchowski and Lapeer County Health Director Katherine Haskins say that is not the case."*

Farther down in the article is this part:

*"Haskins concurs. "As far as Influenza cases being reported as COVID, not so," she said. "Most ERs run what they call a respiratory panel. Part of that is Influenza types A & B, often RSV (respiratory syncytial virus which causes flu-like symptoms), and COVID was added. However, if the Influenza test is positive it is reported as influenza in our reporting system with a copy of the test result. I've seen the report sheets. Each test result is listed separately. It's only reported as COVID if it tests positive for COVID," Haskins concluded.*

*In spite of the conspiracy theories, a hospital has very little incentive to misclassify influenza as COVID-19. Hospitals receive an additional 20% for Medicare patients treated for COVID-19 through funding created by the CARES Act last April. But that applies only to patients whose healthcare is paid for by Medicare. And those payments fall well below a hospital's normal billing and costs, so a 20% upcharge allowed by a COVID diagnosis is not going to reap a windfall. A COVID diagnosis requires documentation, such as a positive test. Falsifying those documents would be unethical and illegal. The penalties to hospitals for Medicare fraud are steep."*

I found the "hospital has very little incentive" part interesting, 20% upcharge would NOT be an incentive? Full disclosure, this hospital/paper are located in the 'MJ shops' hotspot of the county. City has around 5,000 folks county around 90,000 folks for population. City is the only one in the county that has approved MJ stores. Only 6 where approved to sell, no limit on growing facilities. 

I'm a believer in 'looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, acts like a duck, it's probably a duck' thought process, perhaps I'm wrong (again). 

Larry


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## Vol

slowzuki said:


> That's been disproven.


Let me guess.....your statement is based on science? Or is it based on what someone told you? Or is it based on something that you have read and that you personally believe? Or did you hear it in the media?

Your statement is impossible to prove as correct.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay

slowzuki said:


> That's been disproven.


A Dr says different and was reprimanded for saying it.






he explains it well.


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> That's been disproven.


By who? Jack Dorsey? 
New York Times? 
Theres SO MUCH money in declaring anyone who is sick or dies WITH Covid.

Hospitals would be foolish not to declare anyone who dies, from dying from Covid.


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## RockyHill

swmnhay said:


> A Dr says different and was reprimanded for saying it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he explains it well.


Do you know what became of this reprimand?

Shelia


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## swmnhay

RockyHill said:


> Do you know what became of this reprimand?
> 
> Shelia


No but he still posts his opinions on U-Tube and Face book


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## somedevildawg

While we have no idea as to whether hospitals are reporting flu patients as Covid patients, I think it's certain that SARS/H1N1 get Covid 19 status. Given the numbers, it's hard to believe they are reported accurately but there is money involved so......there ya' go. 
It's a very deadly virus for some who contract it, don't know why it hits others so much worse, but do not be fooled, it's a killer. If I were in that group that has known vulnerabilities, I would exercise caution and get the vaccine ASAP.


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## Hayjosh

I'm glad to see folks here taking it seriously. We were pregnant during the pandemic and had a little hay princess in September...which meant we've been laying low before and since. We're both healthy and young so will patiently wait our turn for a vaccine to make sure those who need it more get it before us. I got sucked into COVID at work when things started to heat up and developed a test for humans and animals. My time has been split pretty evenly between human and animal COVID work, which has been pretty fascinating. It's time to start paying attention to what COVID has been doing to the mink farms.

There have probably been a number of deaths incorrectly attributed to COVID-19, and likely a lot that have not been as well. I don't think the numbers are far off however. The preliminary numbers show 12% more deaths in 2020 vs 2019 in the US; this amounts to over 334,000 more people died in 2020 than 2019.

https://usafacts.org/articles/preliminary-us-death-statistics-more-deaths-in-2020-than-2019-coronavirus-age-flu/


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## KS John

slowzuki said:


> That's been disproven.


Where is the proof? You cannot say it has been disproven without offering evidence!


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## somedevildawg

KS John said:


> Where is the proof? You cannot say it has been disproven without offering evidence!


Sure you can John......that's purty common nowadays and part of the problems we have discerning truth from fiction. It happens all the time on the right and left side of the isle.....they will follow up with some "fact checkers" to put the cherry on top  
Hydrocloroquine was debunked too according to some, well...."experts". (Slow can tell you, he's convinced) They must not have had access to all the info.....or they just hated president Trump and wanted to debunk his early acceptance. I would say the latter is most likely true, with our president involved the tables were tilted....they certainly missed some crucial "real world" trials. 
So.....in response to your assertion that they "cannot say it has been disproven without offering evidence", I say.....hold my beer, it's 2020/21


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## Uphayman

Neil Cavuto says I should be dead..........Trump says it saved me. Don't believe anyone anymore. Took my hydroxycloroquine this morning.........yep, still have a pulse.


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> I'm glad to see folks here taking it seriously. We were pregnant during the pandemic and had a little hay princess in September...which meant we've been laying low before and since. We're both healthy and young so will patiently wait our turn for a vaccine to make sure those who need it more get it before us. I got sucked into COVID at work when things started to heat up and developed a test for humans and animals. My time has been split pretty evenly between human and animal COVID work, which has been pretty fascinating. It's time to start paying attention to what COVID has been doing to the mink farms.
> 
> There have probably been a number of deaths incorrectly attributed to COVID-19, and likely a lot that have not been as well. I don't think the numbers are far off however. The preliminary numbers show 12% more deaths in 2020 vs 2019 in the US; this amounts to over 334,000 more people died in 2020 than 2019.
> 
> https://usafacts.org/articles/preliminary-us-death-statistics-more-deaths-in-2020-than-2019-coronavirus-age-flu/


Josh, I think the financial incentives are just too great to deny the temptation to declare everyone who presents symptoms Covid positive. 
Many hospitals see it as an opportunity for expansion money, paying down debt, modernizing, etc.

Follow the money.

This vaccine was also a HUGE money grab for the pharmaceutical companies. Hydroxychloroquine is just a $10 off the shelf treatment. Nobody makes any money from it.

May sound unpopular to many, but I bet this thing could have been effectively treated from day one with existing and improved therapeutics (hydroxychloroquine, remdesivere, regeneron, etc) and we could have saved trillions and not shut down businesses and bankrupted 336,000 small businesses. 
The vaccine IS important, but it's controversial in the way it was used to bludgeon therapeutics.


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## r82230

Watch the 'miracle' treatment arrive after the 20th. Ivermectin.

Here's a short clip of Dr. Kory in front of the US Senate:






NIH finally gives a green light 1/14/2021 as a treatment option:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

Here's the main stream press 3 days later, saying it doesn't work:

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9768999400

Here's the non-main stream press, saying it does work:

https://www.cnsnews.com/article/national/susan-jones/physician-tells-senate-ivermectin-covid-wonder-drug-if-you-take-it-you

Oh, did I mention, this drug has been around since 1975, cost could be as low as $0.80 for treatment (yes you read that right, less than a buck). Has a rather long safety record for some odd reason. BUT wait a minute who's going to make a lot of money off something like this.............................. doesn't matter, there will be a new 'hero' in a couple of days that will promote Ivermectin. 

And yes, it's the same stuff you use on cattle, horses and dogs.  I'd recommend the horse version verses the dog version, that way you will only shake your head and run to the other side the yard verses rubbing your butt on the front lawn after getting your dosage.  :lol: 

Larry

PS full disclosure I've already gotten my family doc on board, but now he doesn't have to think I'm infested with tape worms (he already checked for head lice, not enough hair for them to survive).


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## swmnhay

They have the horse paste ivermectin under lock and key at local TSC and a poster on it saying not for human use.


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## Hayjosh

JD3430 said:


> Josh, I think the financial incentives are just to great to deny the temptation to declare everyone who presents symptoms Covid positive.
> Many hospitals see it as an opportunity for expansion money, paying down debt, modernizing, etc.
> 
> Follow the money.
> 
> This vaccine was also a HUGE money grab for the pharmaceutical companies. Hydroxychloroquine is just a $10 off the shelf treatment. Nobody makes any money from it.
> 
> May sound unpopular to many, but I bet this thing could have been effectively treated from day one with existing and improved therapeutics (hydroxychloroquine, remdesivere, regeneron, etc) and we could have saved trillions and not shut down businesses and bankrupted 336,000 small businesses.
> The vaccine IS important, but it's controversial in the way it was used to bludgeon therapeutics.


A few misconceptions here. First being, there is no money to follow. Hospitals have been hemorrhaging money after the onset of COVID. Elective procedures and many other surgeries and visits were halted or significantly reduced. Hospitals saw substantial reduction in capacity of anything non-COVID. Many hospital workers were furloughed while the doctors and nurses with specialized care credentials were overworked and being called back in from retirement. The additional PPE and isolation requirements put a financial strain on hospitals (PPE is very expensive), and the ICU is the most expensive bed to operate. In 2020, at least 47 hospitals closed or filed for bankruptcy due to COVID. COVID cases received a subsidy to help offset increased costs of care for hospitals and patients.

A treatment and vaccine are not the same thing. The purpose of a vaccine is to prevent disease in the first place. COVID is very unique (and different from influenza in this regard) in that it presents itself in a number of syndromes. Hydroxy was somewhat effective for a specific inflammatory syndrome, but it could also be deadly if this syndrome was not the primary disease. Studies were conducted all over the world and the results were a mixed bag which is not ideal. Some treatments may be ineffective for a given course of disease, but treatments that can be counterproductive aren't going to stay at the top of the list. You might have noticed that hydroxy was absent from the treatment regimen of Trump, Christie, Guliani, and other top government officials.

We couldn't treat anything from day 1 because nobody had any idea what the hell we were even working with and what would work and what wouldn't. It took the better part of the year to identify effective treatments. Regeneron's monoclonal antibody did not exist; it's an antibody created specifically to COVID.

The vaccine was not used to bludgeon therapeutics, it is used to prevent disease. Not developing severe disease in the first place is the preferable scenario to developing disease, overwhelming hospitals and dealing with the potential long-term consequences of infection, or even death as well as economic losses. When vaccines are unavailable or fail to prevent disease, then treatments play a crucial role. The pharma companies have all been busy working on both vaccines and therapeutics.


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## Aaroncboo

HayJosh congratulations on the baby! Glad you're all doing well. Did you pick a name or is it hay princess from now on?


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> A few misconceptions here. First being, there is no money to follow. Hospitals have been hemorrhaging money after the onset of COVID. Elective procedures and many other surgeries and visits were halted or significantly reduced. Hospitals saw substantial reduction in capacity of anything non-COVID. Many hospital workers were furloughed while the doctors and nurses with specialized care credentials were overworked and being called back in from retirement. The additional PPE and isolation requirements put a financial strain on hospitals (PPE is very expensive), and the ICU is the most expensive bed to operate. In 2020, at least 47 hospitals closed or filed for bankruptcy due to COVID. COVID cases received a subsidy to help offset increased costs of care for hospitals and patients.
> 
> A treatment and vaccine are not the same thing. The purpose of a vaccine is to prevent disease in the first place. COVID is very unique (and different from influenza in this regard) in that it presents itself in a number of syndromes. Hydroxy was somewhat effective for a specific inflammatory syndrome, but it could also be deadly if this syndrome was not the primary disease. Studies were conducted all over the world and the results were a mixed bag which is not ideal. Some treatments may be ineffective for a given course of disease, but treatments that can be counterproductive aren't going to stay at the top of the list. You might have noticed that hydroxy was absent from the treatment regimen of Trump, Christie, Guliani, and other top government officials.
> 
> We couldn't treat anything from day 1 because nobody had any idea what the hell we were even working with and what would work and what wouldn't. It took the better part of the year to identify effective treatments. Regeneron's monoclonal antibody did not exist; it's an antibody created specifically to COVID.
> 
> The vaccine was not used to bludgeon therapeutics, it is used to prevent disease. Not developing severe disease in the first place is the preferable scenario to developing disease, overwhelming hospitals and dealing with the potential long-term consequences of infection, or even death as well as economic losses. When vaccines are unavailable or fail to prevent disease, then treatments play a crucial role. The pharma companies have all been busy working on both vaccines and therapeutics.


Josh, I'm well aware of the difference between the 2.
So if hospitals couldn't do profitable elective surgeries because of Covid overload, then there would indeed be an incentive to admit more Covid patients.

While waiting for vaccine, we have to go to war with the army we have. What did we have? Hydroxychloroquine and other existing therapeutics. Hydroxychloroquine was known to work early on in the pandemic. 
I believe the hope for a vaccine was used to bludgeon therapeutics because so many doctors and patients did not take proven therapeutics because of the opportunity to bash Trump.

Therapeutics used by President Trump were immediately portrayed as snake oil. We were all told to wait for vaccine and NOT take hydroxychloroquine. Fox News Neil Cavuto told watchers on his show "this stuff will kill you".

Wonder how many watchers were scared from taking it and lives could have been saved with hydroxychloroquine.......


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## r82230

Aaroncboo said:


> HayJosh congratulations on the baby! Glad you're all doing well. Did you pick a name or is it hay princess from now on?


You got part of her name right,  I let Josh tell you for certain. Hint: look closely at what name he goes by on HT. 

Larry


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## Hayjosh

Aaroncboo said:


> HayJosh congratulations on the baby! Glad you're all doing well. Did you pick a name or is it hay princess from now on?


Well as Larry clued you in, her name is Haylee Rose.

"Haylee" which has a literal meaning 'hay meadow,' as a tribute to my late father and grandfathers' farming heritage, which is where my love of hay farming came from. Three men she'll never meet but they can live on in her this way.

"Rose" after my wife Rosemary.

My brothers call her 'haybale' but indeed she will be a hay princess whether she wants to or not


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## Hayjosh

JD3430 said:


> Josh, I'm well aware of the difference between the 2.
> So if hospitals couldn't do profitable elective surgeries because of Covid overload, then there would indeed be an incentive to admit more Covid patients.
> 
> While waiting for vaccine, we have to go to war with the army we have. What did we have? Hydroxychloroquine and other existing therapeutics. Hydroxychloroquine was known to work early on in the pandemic.
> I believe the hope for a vaccine was used to bludgeon therapeutics because so many doctors and patients did not take proven therapeutics because of the opportunity to bash Trump.
> 
> Therapeutics used by President Trump were immediately portrayed as snake oil. We were all told to wait for vaccine and NOT take hydroxychloroquine. Fox News Neil Cavuto told watchers on his show "this stuff will kill you".
> 
> Wonder how many watchers were scared from taking it and lives could have been saved with hydroxychloroquine.......


The early studies with hydroxychloroquine were anecdotal and were not controlled or randomized. They generated the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is worth investigating. When large, controlled randomized studies were conducted, hydroxychloroquine more often than not showed no benefit whatsoever. In fact one study terminated early because the treatment group was experiencing a higher mortality rate than the control group. Early on, there were no treatments 'known' or 'proven' to work. It was grasping for straws, and when something looked promising anecdotally, it went into larger studies.

The therapeutics used to treat Trump's COVID were the Regeneron monoclonal antibody, Remdesivir, Dexamethasone (an extremely common and inexpensive steroid that has been around forever), and he had been on Vitamin D supplements. None of these are snake oil. Hydroxychloroquine was not used. The former have become a very successful treatment regimen and have no doubt contributed to decreased mortality.


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## Aaroncboo

Love the name. Love the reason behind it more! Just goes to show a name can be more than just a name.


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> The early studies with hydroxychloroquine were anecdotal and were not controlled or randomized. They generated the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is worth investigating. When large, controlled randomized studies were conducted, hydroxychloroquine more often than not showed no benefit whatsoever. In fact one study terminated early because the treatment group was experiencing a higher mortality rate than the control group. Early on, there were no treatments 'known' or 'proven' to work. It was grasping for straws, and when something looked promising anecdotally, it went into larger studies.
> 
> The therapeutics used to treat Trump's COVID were the Regeneron monoclonal antibody, Remdesivir, Dexamethasone (an extremely common and inexpensive steroid that has been around forever), and he had been on Vitamin D supplements. None of these are snake oil. Hydroxychloroquine was not used. The former have become a very successful treatment regimen and have no doubt contributed to decreased mortality.


Trump took Hydroxychloroquine as a prophylactic https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-says-he-s-no-longer-taking-hydroxychloroquine-n1214301

and quite honestly, none of us know what he took

and as far as the efficacy, I can post as many articles that it works as you want, but Google is removing them from the internet fast. 
https://www.oann.com/hydroxychloroquine/


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## somedevildawg

My wife was taking hydroxy as a prophylactic to no avail.....she also took zinc and D. But there are folks that are alive today and they believe it was because of hydroxy.....I’m sure most are aware of some of them, highly publicized for a while. I’m not so sure there were much better results from Remdisivir, but alas, I’m a layman......ivermectin does seem to show promise and wouldn’t that be ironic that the best treatment was sitting in the shelves the entire time.....whodathunk you just had to go to your local Vet, but hey....it is a CoronaVirus


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## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> My wife was taking hydroxy as a prophylactic to no avail.....she also took zinc and D. But there are folks that are alive today and they believe it was because of hydroxy.....I'm sure most are aware of some of them, highly publicized for a while. I'm not so sure there were much better results from Remdisivir, but alas, I'm a layman......ivermectin does seem to show promise and wouldn't that be ironic that the best treatment was sitting in the shelves the entire time.....whodathunk you just had to go to your local Vet, but hey....it is a CoronaVirus


Hey there's a lot of veterinary coronaviruses too.

I just read a study the other day--it was very preliminary and based on only 96 observations--but suggested that the good ol' MMR vaccine could be effective in reducing severity of COVID. In that study they found antibody titers inversely correlated with disease severity, meaning those who had high antibody titers to mumps had mild COVID, while those with low or no titers to mumps had severe COVID. It is preliminary and really just formed a hypothesis, but in my opinion it's low risk, high reward. Most of us are probably negative for MMR titers now anyway (I know I was when I got tested a few years ago).

So if you know somebody who's really susceptible and is unsure of the COVID vaccine or can't get it yet, maybe just get an MMR vaccine or have them check your antibody levels. What is it going to hurt/what have you got to lose? My mom has a history of severe allergies to some drugs so I told her she isn't a great candidate for the vaccine, so maybe she should get boosted for MMR.

This is one of the theories behind why kids do not seem to be affected by COVID too badly, or at all. Again, this is all preliminary. Nothing proven.


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## somedevildawg

I’ve often said, I would much rather have a blood test for antibodies than a CoronaVirus test....I think it takes a little longer but it would seem to glean much more information that a + - test....what say you Josh? I’m not sure I could take repeated testing.....I had a friend that could thankfully get in for a prostate removal about two weeks ago, had to be tested twice in consecutive days. Why not do a antibodies test first, if negative then proceed with the jamming of a q-tip up your nose


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## somedevildawg

Interesting about the MMR vaccine.....hadn't thought about that possibility. But it certainly doesn't explain why my aunt at 91 had Covid-19 and barely ran a fever. Just a wide array of differences in the way it affects certain people. What ever became of the blood links....evidence that 0 types fared better? Kinda strange it seems, don't ever remember blood types being linked.....

And congrats on the new addition, what a cool name! Nothing quite like being a father.....nothing in this mortal world (Although being a "Big Daddy" does run a close second  )


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## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> Interesting about the MMR vaccine.....hadn't thought about that possibility. But it certainly doesn't explain why my aunt at 91 had Covid-19 and barely ran a fever. Just a wide array of differences in the way it affects certain people. What ever became of the blood links....evidence that 0 types fared better? Kinda strange it seems, don't ever remember blood types being linked.....
> 
> And congrats on the new addition, what a cool name! Nothing quite like being a father.....nothing in this mortal world (Although being a "Big Daddy" does run a close second  )


Yeah my grandma who's about the same age as your aunt had it as well in her nursing home (along with many others) and she didn't get so much as a runny nose. That lady is built like an Abrahm's tank despite her small frail size. I've lost track of how many times she's been in and out of hospice as they were thinking it was finally her end. She just keeps on ticking.

It really does affect people in different ways. I guess there's a lot we'll have to learn on that. One running hypothesis is severity of disease is based on the viral dose you're infected with (maybe this explains asymptomatic people...they just got hit with very tiny dose). Have heard about the blood type link as well but haven't looked into it.


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## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> I've often said, I would much rather have a blood test for antibodies than a CoronaVirus test....I think it takes a little longer but it would seem to glean much more information that a + - test....what say you Josh? I'm not sure I could take repeated testing.....I had a friend that could thankfully get in for a prostate removal about two weeks ago, had to be tested twice in consecutive days. Why not do a antibodies test first, if negative then proceed with the jamming of a q-tip up your nose


 My antibody test is just a positive or negative result (like a home pregnancy test). It tests a prick of blood from your finger and you get a result in 10 minutes. You ask a good question, but there's an even better answer 

There's a lag in the time it takes to make antibodies if you're infected. If a test is detecting IgM antibodies, which is the first antibody class your body makes, it takes about 5-10 days for them to pop up. If the test is detecting IgG antibodies, it takes that antibody class about 14 days to pop up after infection. So a negative antibody test doesn't indicate you're not infected (you could be in that window). The antigen test (nose test) will detect viral genetic material (RNA) if it's present then. There are some antigen tests that only require swabbing inside the nose and not stabbing the brain, and others can use saliva or gum swab.

I only see two purposes for COVID antibody tests, the first being to tell if you'd been previously exposed or infected, or the second to monitor duration of an antibody response, whether it be to vaccination or infection. It doesn't have utility as an indicator of active infection.


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## somedevildawg

But given that....doesn’t it seem better for (say my buddies case) take the antibodies test prior (14-21 days) and if they show up, you and the surrounding people are good.....if not, test. Doesn’t that make more sense? Btw, they had to jab his briain (that’s the way he described it) twice. He still hasn’t been tested for antibodies that I know of....interesting enuf, if you give blood they automatically do the test...in my wife’s case, they wanted her to have the vaccine even tho she had Covid back in July.....the vaccine (moderno ) made her feel exactly like when she had the virus but for only about 36 hrs....my take was if she had been tested for Covid and tested + then she certainly should have antibodies. Enough in her case that she felt comfortable letting someone else that was higher priority have her dosage, it is after all about saving lives. Seems antibody testing should be implemented more.....we really have little data on how many are living with antibodies now. Have you seen evidence that points to an individual having previous CoronaVirus strains having desirable antibodies for fighting Covid 19?


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## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> But given that....doesn't it seem better for (say my buddies case) take the antibodies test prior (14-21 days) and if they show up, you and the surrounding people are good.....if not, test. Doesn't that make more sense?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah it does make a lot of sense and that's a good point. Because like you're getting at, if you're antibody positive, you probably aren't going to be virus positive (since your quarantine/infectious period is up before you start getting measurable IgG antibodies).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw, they had to jab his briain (that's the way he described it) twice. He still hasn't been tested for antibodies that I know of....interesting enuf, if you give blood they automatically do the test...in my wife's case, they wanted her to have the vaccine even tho she had Covid back in July.....the vaccine (moderno ) made her feel exactly like when she had the virus but for only about 36 hrs....my take was if she had been tested for Covid and tested + then she certainly should have antibodies.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You would be surprised at the number of people that are COVID pos and do not make an antibody response. I just completed an antibody testing study with a medical school and 15% of the subjects tested with a previous diagnosis of COVID (within several months) tested negative for antibodies on two different tests. One person had just mild symptoms and I don't know how bad symptoms were for the other people. It could be that if disease is mild your innate immunity takes care of it all and you never mount an active immune response where you'd make antibodies. If your wife had pretty bad symptoms and was sick for awhile then she most certainly has lots of antibodies. The antibody results seem like they're all or nothing. The people that are antibody positive are REALLY positive. Those people that are antibody negative despite a previous COVID diagnosis are the ones I believe are susceptible to reinfection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> we really have little data on how many are living with antibodies now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's an academic question and is a type of study I'd love to do, especially among retail workers, cashiers, etc who have had a lot of exposure to the public during the entire pandemic. Currently 1 in 16 people in the US have been infected with COVID now. Although I can say among people I've tested that have had no known exposure to COVID, there has not been a single one of them antibody positive. Also important to know is how long antibody responses last in people with COVID diagnosis and/or vaccination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen evidence that points to an individual having previous CoronaVirus strains having desirable antibodies for fighting Covid 19?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Oh absolutely. They make neutralizing antibodies which is why plasma from convalescent (recovered) patients has been used to treat those with active infection. My own studies in animals have shown this as well.


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## somedevildawg

Good info, thanks


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## somedevildawg

Josh, To let you know......that MMR has been in my head all day  ain't a whole lot of room up there for expansion  but one other thought that has been plagueing my thought process that you may have seen any research or have been privy to; concerning asymptomatic transmission......I "think" the widespread opinion has been that asymptomatic people typically are not reliable vessels for transmission, at least I've never really heard much of it. But the entire transmission theory behind this virus has been centered, almost exclusively, on transmission by asymptomatic people. Given that that seems to run contrary to my perceived knowledge of viral transmissions, is there any data to suggest that this virus, despite perhaps being more infectious....Transmits at via asymtomatic people much more aggressively than any before.....
To the layman, it seems to run against the grain......


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## Gearclash

Hayjosh said:


> The early studies with hydroxychloroquine were anecdotal and were not controlled or randomized. They generated the hypothesis that hydroxychloroquine is worth investigating.* When large, controlled randomized studies were conducted, hydroxychloroquine more often than not showed no benefit whatsoever. In fact one study terminated early because the treatment group was experiencing a higher mortality rate than the control group*. Early on, there were no treatments 'known' or 'proven' to work. It was grasping for straws, and when something looked promising anecdotally, it went into larger studies.
> 
> The therapeutics used to treat Trump's COVID were the Regeneron monoclonal antibody, Remdesivir, Dexamethasone (an extremely common and inexpensive steroid that has been around forever), and he had been on Vitamin D supplements. None of these are snake oil. Hydroxychloroquine was not used. The former have become a very successful treatment regimen and have no doubt contributed to decreased mortality.


This is what I gathered from a "best practices" "memo" circulating in the medical world. It showed hydroxychloroquine as being of doubtful benefit at best, in some cases seemed to be harmful. Ivermectin on the other hand, was shown to be almost across the board beneficial.


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## r82230

Gearclash said:


> Ivermectin on the other hand, was shown to be almost across the board beneficial.


Yep, here's one from right here in the good old USA. Seems mom was given a 20% chance of survival on ventilator. Gave her a dosage, she then had a 48 hour turn around, so they took her out of the ICU wing to a different area of hospital, with a different doc in charge. He refused to use Ivermectin, mom was taking a turn back to the worst, so family went to court.

https://www.thedesertreview.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/ivermectin-goes-to-court-and-the-nih-relaxes-its-prohibition/article_440b7300-59bf-11eb-b945-4f69ec28f4c0.html

https://www.legitgov.org/new-york-supreme-court-judge-saves-80-year-old-patient-death-ordering-hospital-give-life-saving

Larry

PS lady check out of the hospital two days ago. 

https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nys/central-ny/politics/2021/01/20/covid-patient-out-of-hospital-after-court-order-to-get-experimental-treatment


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## somedevildawg

But....I've heard of the same type stories with hydro as well. I remember (March) one guy said he didn't think he would be alive the next day, got a call from an old friend that was a MD and told him of the Hydroxy/zinc/d, convinced his MD and after taking them had a terrible night and the next day said he wanted to be discharged. Felt great..... 
of course in the early days we were throwing everything in the book at it, but I never heard of ivermectin until we progressed thru the human drugs......who the hell knows.....


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## swmnhay

I wonder if the pour on ivomectrin would work?I think in cattle it's absorbed threw the hair to get internal well cattle have a lot more hair then We do but would it absorb threw your skin?I sure got plenty on me when I had cattle here.Wonder how long it lasts in a person.?

ive read where some have taken the horse paste and said it worked.

So why not take it if you get it right away seems to me treating something at first sign of it is better then sending people home after testing positive and tell them only to come back if it gets worse.

If I had a calf getting sick I'd treat it immediately with good results if I waited until Tommorow good chance it would be unresponsive to treatment and die


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## r82230

somedevildawg said:


> but I never heard of ivermectin until we progressed thru the human drugs......who the hell knows.....


Been around since 1975 so most likely off patent. Use in humans for parasites like head lice, scabies, etc., just in today's world Doc's prescribe possibly more expensive drugs for those treatments. 



swmnhay said:


> I wonder if the pour on ivomectrin would work?I think in cattle it's absorbed threw the hair to get internal well cattle have a lot more hair then We do but would it absorb threw your skin?I sure got plenty on me when I had cattle here.Wonder how long it lasts in a person.?


Cy, if you look like attached pix your hair might absorb it just fine.  :lol: Actually, I think it's absorbed into the skin on cattle, as a mode of treatment. This guy looks similar to the last popsicle in the freezer, IMHO. 

Larry


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## swmnhay

r82230 said:


> Been around since 1975 so most likely off patent.


Its been off patent quite awhile.IIRC before went off patent it was around $600 for a 5L jug.Now its about $70


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## somedevildawg

I’ve only heard of it’s use in veterinarian medicine, but I can see why.....my mother said they would put warm milk under the nose to pull parasites out so they could retrieve them  I’m sure a dose of ivermectin woulda been better  I, for one, am thankful of modern medicine if for nothing alone than the replacement of castor oil for all that ails you......


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## r82230

Prices from Canadian pharmacies has sky rocketed it seems for the 3mg size. Now at $39 for 20 - 3mg, 20 - 6mg @ $27 yet, 20 - 12mg @ $30. Yea, backwards pricing, but market demand could be at play. 

https://www.canadianprescriptiondrugstore.com/stromectol

Larry


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## Hayjosh

The ivermectin thing is still trying to find its feet for sure. The Australian study found that ivermectin inhibited viral replication in vitro, but the concentrations at which it was used were very high...much higher than what you could safely dose. That immediately cast a lot of doubt among some groups of scientists.

So, same story as hydroxy. Lots of observational and anecdotal evidence that it works, yet lacking in controlled, randomized large studies.

Just a few days ago a new study was reported in one of the papers published by The Lancet, which is the most prestigious medical journal in the world. This study looked at ivermectin in mild COVID cases, using viral RNA detection as the benchmark. There was not a statistical difference in amount of virus detected in treatment vs placebo group, but treatment group did have lower antibody titers, lower viral loads (albeit not statistically significant), and reported faster recovery of smell. So this conclusion was there could be something here, and it warrants further investigation. This study itself certainly wasn't a slam dunk for or against.

There's a few exceptions I take to the study, which always make me feel a bit foolish because some very, very smart people have peer-reviewed this study and it's like 'who am I to take exception to these people?' But perhaps they had noted the same exceptions in their review (that being said, I have both authored and peer-reviewed scientific papers for veterinary journals).

The exceptions are...viral load by PCR is a poor benchmark for success because it does not indicate viable virus, only presence of RNA and we know that the viral RNA can hang around in people after they've cleared infection. In other words, people treated with ivermectin very well could have had reduced viral load earlier, but that can't be detected as a limitation of the study test method.

The second being this was mild disease, and patients were all pretty young, so not a lot to extract from reduction in symptoms or severity of symptoms, because disease was never very bad in the first place.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(20)30464-8/fulltext


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## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> Josh, To let you know......that MMR has been in my head all day  ain't a whole lot of room up there for expansion  but one other thought that has been plagueing my thought process that you may have seen any research or have been privy to; concerning asymptomatic transmission......I "think" the widespread opinion has been that asymptomatic people typically are not reliable vessels for transmission, at least I've never really heard much of it. But the entire transmission theory behind this virus has been centered, almost exclusively, on transmission by asymptomatic people. Given that that seems to run contrary to my perceived knowledge of viral transmissions, is there any data to suggest that this virus, despite perhaps being more infectious....Transmits at via asymtomatic people much more aggressively than any before.....
> To the layman, it seems to run against the grain......


That's the trillions dollar question. What seems to be more likely is transmission from people who were asymptomatic at the time. Viral shedding can start a few days before symptoms present which is why masking is important even if you feel fine.

I have my own theories...there has to be SOME level of transmission from asymptomatic individuals because the virus had to be circulating in people for a long time in order to mutate itself into pathogenicity. Evolutionary analysis of the SARS-CoV-2 virus suggests it evolved approximately 70 years ago. When it made the jump into people isn't exactly known, but it very likely would have had to move through humans for awhile until there was a random mutation event. And in order to move through people...it had to be contagious from asymptomatic people.

A recent report that just blew up everything we thought we know now points to the earliest known case of COVID in a young boy in Italy in November 2019. Virus collected from his specimens had 100% identity to the original Wuhan strain. That means it had to be moving through people much earlier than we know, but wasn't making substantial disease at that point and likely wasn't AS contagious. It also removes the exotic meat market in Wuhan as the original source.

To answer your question, here's an interesting conundrum posed by a recent article in the British Medical Journal.



> The transmission rates to contacts within a specific group (secondary attack rate) may be 3-25 times lower for people who are asymptomatic than for those with symptoms.1121415 A city-wide prevalence study of almost 10 million people in Wuhan found no evidence of asymptomatic transmission.16 Coughing, which is a prominent symptom of covid-19, may result in far more viral particles being shed than talking and breathing, so people with symptomatic infections are more contagious, irrespective of close contact.17 On the other hand, asymptomatic and presymptomatic people may have more contacts than symptomatic people (who are isolating), underlining the importance of hand washing and social distancing measures for everyone.


https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4851


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## stack em up

Dang Josh, that's a lot of neat info, thanks!

Oh, and congrats on the baby girl!


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## Hayjosh

Patent protection is granted for 20 years.

Ivermectin theoretically is absorbed through the skin. But interestingly enough, only very little of it is absorbed into the skin; most of it is ingested by licking (either from the cow or other cows).


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## Gearclash

*"A recent report that just blew up everything we thought we know now points to the earliest known case of COVID in a young boy in Italy in November 2019. Virus collected from his specimens had 100% identity to the original Wuhan strain. That means it had to be moving through people much earlier than we know, but wasn't making substantial disease at that point and likely wasn't AS contagious. It also removes the exotic meat market in Wuhan as the original source."*

That is indeed interesting. If true it would explode a lot of current notions about Covid. My own personal thought about the origins of Covid19 is that it is a virus doing what viruses do. Yellow fever is a virus that didn't exist in humans something like 500 years ago--until it mutated slightly and infected humans with disastrous consequences. That was all long before people understood what a virus was, let alone able to engage in manipulating viruses. No reason to think that hasn't happened again unless there is good evidence otherwise.


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## Gearclash

This is worth reading through. Fairly recent publication and I would think of reliable origin.

https://www.evms.edu/media/evms_public/departments/internal_medicine/EVMS_Critical_Care_COVID-19_Protocol.pdf


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## somedevildawg

Thanks....good info!


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## Hayjosh

Gearclash said:


> That is indeed interesting. If true it would explode a lot of current notions about Covid. *My own personal thought about the origins of Covid19 is that it is a virus doing what viruses do.* Yellow fever is a virus that didn't exist in humans something like 500 years ago--until it mutated slightly and infected humans with disastrous consequences. That was all long before people understood what a virus was, let alone able to engage in manipulating viruses. *No reason to think that hasn't happened again unless there is good evidence otherwise.*


 Yes, this x100. That's the thought of most scientists as well (mine included). It seems to be a virus doing what viruses do, and as other coronaviruses before its time (SARS-1 and MERS) have done.

I actually worked on a Yellow Fever vaccine at my previous job, which was in biodefense.


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