# Early Maturing Timothy



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I need some advice on what variety of timothy to plant with orchard grass. I am located in western North Carolina and have a customer wanting a orchard grass, timothy, and red clover hay mixture for his horses. Assuming that I needed the latest maturing orchard grass that i could get in order to get it to mature with the timothy I ordered Baraula orchard grass. From what I have read Baraula is the latest maturing stuff avalible. My question is shold i try to get the earliest maturing timothy avalible or since I have a late maturing orchard grass would a medium maturing timothy be better. Clair is the only variety of early maturing timothy I have found if you know any varieties that would be better with the orchard grass please let me know. I have also ordered Freedom red clover. Any advice will be appreciated. Thank You.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I like Kootenai Timothy from Idaho. It will mature about 2 weeks earlier than Clair. I also am now growing Athos orchard grass which is highly palatible, leafy, and rated very good on drought resistance. Kootenai does not lodge as bad as Clair. Whatever kind you choose, Timothy must be planted in the fall to be able to withstand summer drought. Horse folk absolutely love timothy. Seems the timing of late orchard and early timothy works well together. Orchard will still start maturation first but timothy is right on its heels. Good luck.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, where would you suggest that I could buy or order Kootenai Timothy seeds. My local seed dealers told me last week the only timothy they could order is Climax. Do you think that I would be better off using the Athos orchard grass instead of the Baraula orchard. How many pounds of seed should I plant to the acre in order to get a stand of roughly half timothy and half orchard. Would you suggest a different percentage of the grasses? I am am going to plant with a no till seed drill. This will be my first time raising horse hay. Thanks.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Vol, where would you suggest that I could buy or order Kootenai Timothy seeds. My local seed dealers told me last week the only timothy they could order is Climax. Do you think that I would be better off using the Athos orchard grass instead of the Baraula orchard. How many pounds of seed should I plant to the acre in order to get a stand of roughly half timothy and half orchard. Would you suggest a different percentage of the grasses? I am am going to plant with a no till seed drill. This will be my first time raising horse hay. Thanks.


What I have read is that Climax is a medium-to late maturing timothy so I really do not know how much that will help you in shrinking the window of maturity of the two grasses. Byron Seed Co. based in Indiana carry several nice varieties of both grasses. I do not know if they have a rep in NC but they have one here in East TN. I will get that info for you and post it later as I have it at my business. I like a mixture heavier on Orchard Grass to help prevent weed invasion later in the summer because here this far South you will typically only get one cutting of the Timothy but two cuttings of Orchard grass. Just gets too hot and dry for second cutting timothy to grow much. I like to put down at least 12-14 pounds of Orchard grass per acre and about 6-8 pounds of timothy. Be very careful planting with a drill as it is very easy to get seed too deep. It is also can be very difficult to drill timothy as the seed is very small. I like to broadcast timothy and then firm it down with a culti-packer.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tim Koeshall ([email protected]) Tim can get you some info out to you. Just email him and he is very good about a quick response. He is a Byron seed rep.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Thank you so much for all of your help. I will definately contact him and see what kind of seeds I can get. If I broadcast the timothy should I also broadcast the orchard grass or would it be better to drill it in before I broadcast the timothy. I would like to get it planted this fall in order to get a harvest next year. About how much time do I have left before it is too late to plant? Thanks.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

It is very late now to be planting. If you broadcast the ground would have to be worked. At this stage I think it would be better to drill. Check and see if the drill has a small seed box and if it does check and see if it has been used for timothy successfully. Baraula and Climax would shrink the maturity window some and at this late stage you would be probably be better off going with these if they are readily available. If you are only doing a small acreage you might want to drill it twice, drill one direction then go 90 degrees across where you previously drilled giving you a thicker stand and more growth opportunities. If possible have someone help you who has drilled before. You only need about 1/2 inch depth. Get enough seed for your planting(drilling once or twice). Also, have someone help you calibrating the seed drop for both varieties. I would probably drill about 12 pounds orchard and 6 pounds timothy per acre.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, sorry for the delay but I wanted to give an update on what I planted and how it is doing. I did contact Tim Koeshall and ordered seeds for the Kootenai Timothy, Athos orchard grass, and Intensiv orchard grass. My ground had quite a bit of dead grass still on it from when I sprayed Roundup so I increased the seeding rate to 15 pounds of orchard and 10 pounds of timothy to the acre. I drilled 8 acres of the Kootenai Timothy and Athos orchard. And also 17 acres of Kootenai Timothy, Intensiv orchard, and Freedom red clover. It was drilled the end of October. I put the timothy seeds in the small seed box and the orchard in the main box. My soil test did not come back in time so I applied 300 pounds of triple 10 fertilize and 1 ton of lime to the acre at planting with intentions of adding the rest in early spring according to what the soil test will say. I used a rented Truax no till drill which ended up being in very poor condition and would not consistenty drill the right amount of seed. I had the fellow that I purchased my hay equipment from help me with drill and he said that in his 50 years of farming he had never saw such a poor drill. I appear to have had fairly good germination but the seedlings are still about an inch tall. Do you think that they will make it through the winter okay. Have you ever used the Intensiv orchard grass, if so what were the differences in it verses the Athos orchard grass. Any other suggestions or advice will be appreciated. Thank you for all of your help.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline, I have used both varieties of orchard grass and I liked them both as far as hay production, but I believe that Athos has a better germination rate than Intensiv. These European varieties have less of a germination rate than our American varieties, are a little slower to establish, but make superior hay in my estimation. I am glad you went with a heavier seeding as I am sure that it will pay for itself. The Kootenai timothy(Idaho) is a prolific germinator and will do well. Drilling seed can be a real pain in itself and if you have unreliable equipment that only makes a tough job even tougher. I think you will really like the texture and the finer stem of the Orchard grass. Having the dead grass may turn out to be an asset for protection of the young plants. This has been a fairly mild winter so far in the Southeast and if it continues you should be fine. Good luck!

Regards, Mike


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

I just thought that I would drag this topic back up!

FC, I was wondering how your seeding of 2 years ago worked out, and if you have any thoughts or suggestions to add.

I am weighing the pros & cons of a Timothy/Orchard Grass mix as compared to a Reed Canary Grass (low alkalinity) seeding.

This would be sold as "Horse Hay".


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol said:


> What I have read is that Climax is a medium-to late maturing timothy so I really do not know how much that will help you in shrinking the window of maturity of the two grasses. Byron Seed Co. based in Indiana carry several nice varieties of both grasses. I do not know if they have a rep in NC but they have one here in East TN. I will get that info for you and post it later as I have it at my business. I like a mixture heavier on Orchard Grass to help prevent weed invasion later in the summer because here this far South you will typically only get one cutting of the Timothy but two cuttings of Orchard grass. Just gets too hot and dry for second cutting timothy to grow much. I like to put down at least 12-14 pounds of Orchard grass per acre and about 6-8 pounds of timothy. Be very careful planting with a drill as it is very easy to get seed too deep. It is also can be very difficult to drill timothy as the seed is very small. I like to broadcast timothy and then firm it down with a culti-packer.
> 
> Regards, Mike


So you don't do anything to open up the ground? Just broadcast and run cultipacker over the ground.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Shetland Sheepdog said:


> I just thought that I would drag this topic back up!
> FC, I was wondering how your seeding of 2 years ago worked out, and if you have any thoughts or suggestions to add.
> I am weighing the pros & cons of a Timothy/Orchard Grass mix as compared to a Reed Canary Grass (low alkalinity) seeding.
> This would be sold as "Horse Hay".


 Well I had mixed results as one field came up mostly pure timothy and the orchard grass never showed up and the other field came up thin and had every weed in the book that took it over and I never even took first cut off. The reason for my poor results and because the drill I rented to be frank was a piece of shit. I found out just as I was finishing that the drill was metering seed when the openers were raised....I ended up sowing five miles of highway and you can still see the timothy growing beside the road along that section...and timothy does not grow wild around here.

After I took the fist cut of timothy on the one field I had some broadleaf weeds and briars come back and I sprayed with crossbow and it burned the timothy a bit and since the field had some Johnson grass I decided to kill my stand with roundup....I now regret doing this as I had a better stand of timothy at the time than I thought and the Timothy would have grew out of the leaf burn that the crossbow did and I could have spot sprayed the Johnson grass.

Last fall I tried again, this time working the ground up with a disc and I borrowed a cultipacker and drilled with a John Deere fbb grain drill that I bought. We had an very dry fall last year and didnt get rain for well over a month after I planted and I didn't get a stand on the upland ground but in a creek bottom field there was enough moisture in the ground to keep it alive and I now have a very nice stand of orchard timothy mix and another field of pure orchard grass. It made about 115 bales per acre on first cut and needs to be cut again now. On the upland ground that did not make it I planted about 15 pounds of Haymaster orchard and 4 pounds of kootenai timothy I can't say how this would have turned out. On the creek bottom ground that is doing good I planted about 15 pounds of Athos orchard and 8 pounds of kootenai timothy. The orchard was in the main box and the Timothy in the small seed box. I had a good stand of both grasses come up...the timothy seems to be more aggressive in the seedling stage than the orchard and the stand is a tad bit heavy on the Timothy side but that doesn't seem to hurt anything. One thing I will stress is make sure to use a very late maturing variety of orchard grass along with a earlier maturing timothy so the maturity is similar on both grasses. If I were to use a early maturing orchard grass or the wild type that is mixed with my fescue it would be way past prime with seed falling off the head by the time the timothy is ready....the Athos orchard grass is a couple weeks later than the wild orchard that matures along with fescue. Brown overripe orchard won't look so hot with nice green young timothy in a bale.

I know nothing about reeds canary grass but I would highly recommend an orchard timothy mix or a pure stand of either grass for horse hay...it really makes some beautiful hay. I am going to plant a couple more fields this fall....I haven't decided if I am going to work the ground or no till with my JD 1590 drill.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I planted some late maturing Orchard grass last fall called Haymaster as FarmerCline referenced. I really like it...it is a finer orchard grass and is doing very well. I am going to plant somemore here in about a month or so. I am going with a pure stand this time as some horse folks are beginning to ask for pure Orchard grass. Seems there was a article in one of the horse publications extolling the virtues of feeding equine pure Orchard grass and that seems to have increased the requests. Supposedly Haymaster Orchard grass is very drought resistant....drought wiped out my european Orchard grasses last year...as it turns out the european varieties are not nearly as drought resistant but I suppose they don't have to be across the pond.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So what would be a good choice for Timothy seed variety for a average ability hay farmer in the mid Atlantic region (PA)?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> So you don't do anything to open up the ground? Just broadcast and run cultipacker over the ground.


 I think the ground would need to be worked and smoothed then packed before broadcasting the packed again it put the seed in good contact with the ground. I have never broadcasted seed before so I am going from what I have heard.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> So what would be a good choice for Timothy seed variety for a average ability hay farmer in the mid Atlantic region (PA)?


 I have been very pleased with the kootenai timothy....it is an early maturing variety so it probably would mix better with other grasses like orchard grass better than a later maturing timothy. I have read about some very late maturing varieties that would be suited for a pure stand to spread out the maturities of your fields so they are not all ready at the same time. It sounds good but for me I doubt it would work because the summer heat might get to it before it matured but I don't know for sure. You being farther north are probably much more suited for timothy as I seem to be on the very southern extreme of where it can be grown.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Vol said:


> I planted some late maturing Orchard grass last fall called Haymaster as FarmerCline referenced. I really like it...it is a finer orchard grass and is doing very well. I am going to plant somemore here in about a month or so. I am going with a pure stand this time as some horse folks are beginning to ask for pure Orchard grass. Seems there was a article in one of the horse publications extolling the virtues of feeding equine pure Orchard grass and that seems to have increased the requests. Supposedly Haymaster Orchard grass is very drought resistant....drought wiped out my european Orchard grasses last year...as it turns out the european varieties are not nearly as drought resistant but I suppose they don't have to be across the pond.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Mike-I love hay master but my experience is that it does not thicken with subsequent overseeding. Soon, plant @ 25 pounds per acre and drop your favorite Tim on the grd and roll. Good luck! Use Potomac or Benchmark go to overseed with to fill Lin the gaps.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I planted some late maturing Orchard grass last fall called Haymaster as FarmerCline referenced. I really like it...it is a finer orchard grass and is doing very well. I am going to plant somemore here in about a month or so. I am going with a pure stand this time as some horse folks are beginning to ask for pure Orchard grass. Seems there was a article in one of the horse publications extolling the virtues of feeding equine pure Orchard grass and that seems to have increased the requests. Supposedly Haymaster Orchard grass is very drought resistant....drought wiped out my european Orchard grasses last year...as it turns out the european varieties are not nearly as drought resistant but I suppose they don't have to be across the pond.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Mike, how does the Haymaster compare to Athos in maturity? I was interested to see how it turn out for me this year...too bad the dry fall killed the germination last year. I was really pleased how the Athos turned out for me this year...this being my first year with improved orchard grass I really liked the late maturity and it was much finer and softer than the orchard grass that is mixed with my fescue.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> So what would be a good choice for Timothy seed variety for a average ability hay farmer in the mid Atlantic region (PA)?


Unless you are trying to break into the high end small bale horse market In our area I would skip timothy And focus on Orchard grass or Alfalfa O/G mixes .


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayman1 said:


> Mike-I love hay master but my experience is that it does not thicken with subsequent overseeding. Soon, plant @ 25 pounds per acre and drop your favorite Tim on the grd and roll. Good luck! Use Potomac or Benchmark go to overseed with to fill Lin the gaps.


Hayman, I used Benchmark on 5 acres that takes alot of traffic as the newer Benchmark is supposed to take traffic and grazing well but it is not nearly as thick as my Haymaster. I have a terrific stand of Haymaster that was sown last October and I have no need to overseed. Potomac is very hardy but also very coarse....it does not feed(coarser) or dry in the windrow nearly as well as Haymaster. I guess there is no perfect grass.....one just has to pick the qualities that they prefer.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Mike, how does the Haymaster compare to Athos in maturity? I was interested to see how it turn out for me this year...too bad the dry fall killed the germination last year. I was really pleased how the Athos turned out for me this year...this being my first year with improved orchard grass I really liked the late maturity and it was much finer and softer than the orchard grass that is mixed with my fescue.


Not really sure Cline as this first season was so non-typical that I really am not able to fairly assess. I think they will compare favorably. It sure looks pretty in the bale with those finer blades and stems.

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm curious, the timothy varieties available here have very little difference in maturity or really any characteristics. It seems the "Early" variety only comes in a few days before the late. We are a very cool wet climate though so it may even up the performance.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> So you don't do anything to open up the ground? Just broadcast and run cultipacker over the ground.


Just now saw this JD....yeah, I open the ground....usually pretty shallow.....sometimes with a 6 foot roto-tiller if its 10 acres or less....then roll it back down...broadcast...roll again with the cultipacker. If more than 10 acres I fracture the ground with a disc...roll down...etc.

Regards, Mike


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We always plant with a notill drill . Much of the hay ground I farm Is very Super Highly Erodible Land and we would never do any tillage on it. In some cases you may be much further ahead to pay someone to come in and notill plant it for you . And of course I would say that we have been doing custom notill work since 1994. We did a 20 acre job last week alfalfa O/G mix he spent over $2000 for the seed and we charged $400 to notill plant it . Seed is expensive you can go lower rates with a good notill drill . Where we farm a drilled stand is always better they say increase seeding rates 20% for broadcasting .


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