# Lime on hay ground



## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

I have the opportunity to get lime. First question, The lime is from milling bridge decks and interstates. Have you ever heard of this? Is it safe to use? They tell me that's all they use if for. Also he said I should use double the rate due to the neutralizing power. (Attached tests). So if it's fine to use what should my rate be? I'm in central Mn so can't get soil samples untill spring. The ground has never been limed that I know of (15+ years). I'm thinking around 2 ton to the acre on my orchard tymothy mix and 4 ton on my Teff ground because I can disk it in. I'm open to opinions and ideas. Thanks in advance.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds like cement/concrete dust. I've read of some people spreading cement plant washout. See the other lime thread open right now on incorperating and rates.


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

So is it just as good as lime just need to use more? Or should I just stay away from it?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

E.Boman said:


> So is it just as good as lime just need to use more? Or should I just stay away from it?


Where would you get it?

I will have to ask neighbor what the row crop guys use. I think local bto gets everything from Foreston.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

I couldn't pull up but the center attachment, but do you have a soil test? Go into this blind, and you will create yourself a world of hurt.


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

It would come from a pit down in Monticello. It sounds like they haul it in and let it dry then haul it out. It would be free for lime and trucking for the volume I'm interested in. (20-30 loads) And I plan on getting soil testing done in the spring when the ground thaws before I apply it I just want to get enough why I have the opportunity.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

sorry I didn't completely read your post. Even if you have last years sample it will be better than nothing.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

E.Boman said:


> It would come from a pit down in Monticello. It sounds like they haul it in and let it dry then haul it out. It would be free for lime and trucking for the volume I'm interested in. (20-30 loads) And I plan on getting soil testing done in the spring when the ground thaws before I apply it I just want to get enough why I have the opportunity.


Free, including hauling raises a red flag. If it was worth something, wouldn't someone else pay SOMETHING?


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

I thought that also. I'm assuming they get paid to take and just want to get rid of it. He said they have 3-4,000 truck loads. What do the test reports look like to you? Also he did say he could give me some farmers phone numbers that use it if I wanted to. I don't know maybe it ain't worth the trouble.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

E.Boman said:


> I thought that also. I'm assuming they get paid to take and just want to get rid of it. He said they have 3-4,000 truck loads. What do the test reports look like to you? Also he did say he could give me some farmers phone numbers that use it if I wanted to. I don't know maybe it ain't worth the trouble.


Never hurts to call and visit the references.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I know (around here), lime gets trucked from @100 miles away; it's a back-haul though and that's where the grain is going, so it COULD come from closer...maybe. Point is, if they are buying and trucking lime from 100 miles away in your area, I couldn't see someone giving essentially-lime away AND trucking it to you.

One of my customers offered that he has access to concrete wash-out from trucks. They will deliver as one wants, just so they can get rid of it. He said it makes good, solid, cheap road pack; the problem being, when it rains, a "slime" floats to the surface and NEVER goes away. It dries out, but when it rains again there is slime again. That is from uncured cement though and may not be a concern with pulverized cured cement. Just food for thought and a question that you can get answered before you wind up with a slimy field.

Skepticism is a cruel mistress. While it can save a costly mistake, it can also make one pass on an opportunity.

73, Mark


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

I'm leaning towards passing it up. From what I understand is they mill it off the surface and it's so wet they haul it to a pit in tankers and keep mixing it up and dry it out. Then they haul it to farmers. And the do typically charge to haul it but if it's under 50 miles it's free. Even though it's free I think I might just pass it up due to not knowing. I don't want to put it on 200+ acres and find out it was a mistake.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

With a dry CCE (calcium carbonate equivalence) of about 30% and with almost all of it passing a 60-mesh screen, this material has around a 30% ECCE (effective calcium carbonate equivalence). So, to be as effective as one ton of 100% ECCE limestone, the application rate of this material would need to be about 3 tons per acre.

Since you have time until the soil thaws to take soil samples, you might want to investigate a more complete analysis that includes heavy metals such as copper, lead, cadmium, etc. to make sure the material is safe to apply to the soil. Also, try to get the material with about 8% moisture in it, otherwise much of it could be blown away if spread on a windy day. When being trucked to you, the trucks need to be covered with a tarp, and don't have it delivered until you are absolutely ready to apply it. Don't let it get wet in a pile.


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

They are only hauling untill road restrictions. So I'd have to decide if I want it and how much before spring thaw. So I can't wait for soil samples. My original thought being the neutralizing power is lower I'd try and spread it with a vertical beater spreader and aim for 4-5 ton an acre on my Teff ground that I can disk in. That way I'd just have spreader rental and fuel cost being everything else is free. And I don't know if they would do any more testing. He did assure me it was 100% safe to spread. Although I take that lightly not ever meeting the guy before.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

TJH said:


> I couldn't pull up but the center attachment, but do you have a soil test? Go into this blind, and you will create yourself a world of hurt.


You're putting the cart before the horse...

The FIRST thing you need is a SOIL TEST. You don't have ANY idea of whether you even NEED lime (which really the only purpose of is to correct the soil pH, IF (and only if) it's too low (acidic). Lime also adds some calcium, but that's not usually a real "need" anyway, more of a side-benefit (if the soil even needs it). As someone else said, "go into it blind you're gonna put yourself in a world of hurt! Not only wasting time, effort, and money that might not be needed, but if you OVERDO it, you could cause yourself some REAL problems... too high of a pH is really worse than too low, in some ways... too low of a pH (acidic soil) is correctable with enough lime (proportionally more the lower the pH) BUT, correcting a soil with too HIGH of a pH (alkaline soil) is ALMOST impossible... you can spread TONS of acidic stuff and have virtually no effect-- multiple YEARS of sulfur treatments is about the ONLY way to correct it (chemically-- most excess pH soils are usually best helped with improved drainage).

In addition, until you know IF and HOW MUCH pH correction is necessary, and look at your other soil mineral or condition needs, it's hard to judge what your best "bang for the buck" value is going to be... IF you have a magnesium deficiency or have poorly drained, tight soils, you might well benefit more from applying gypsum to correct the pH instead of lime... more expensive, yes, but it works fast and builds magnesium in the soil, which improves tilth. IF you have a severely acidic soil (low pH), you would probably be better off using a fine-grained (though again, more expensive) lime that is more active and in smaller particles that can react with the soil more quickly and have an IMMEDIATE effect (or much faster, anyway) to improve your nutrient availability and improve yields... IF, on the other hand, you have a slightly acidic soil, you might be better off to use some slower-release formulation (cheaper forms of lime, ie "chunky" stuff that breaks down slower, which will have a slower reaction in the soil and take longer to see the benefits of it in a corrected pH and better nutrient availability. Sounds to me like the "correction power" of this concrete dust or whatever is pretty low, if they're saying you have to put out like DOUBLE... don't underestimate the cost of hauling and spreading, either... sometimes the "cheapest" material is the most expensive because you have to handle and spread so much-- and that's fuel, wear and tear on the machinery, time, and money to haul and apply it all... PLUS then you get to watch the stuff sit there in the soil for a couple years or whatever before it REALLY produces any real results... (depending on conditions and material).

SO, I'd recommend WAIT TIL YOU CAN DO A PROPER SOIL TEST, THEN weigh your options against your needs and your available funds and THEN make a decision... don't just "buy the hype" that some salesman or something trying to unload something or return a little 'value added' to his employer might tell you...

Later and good luck! OL J R


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## E.Boman (Jun 4, 2015)

I understand a soil test is needed. I wouldn't ever spread it without a soil test. All I wanted to know is if anyone knew anything about the product and if it was a good idea or not. I was by no means going to spread it without testing. It's just that it would need to be hauled out here and dumped before I can get soil samples taken. And if someone did have experience with it I wanted a general ton/acre so I'd get enough I didn't need an exact number. If I got enough for 4 ton an acre and when I get samples done and only need 2 ton then the rest would just sit on the side of the field untill I needed it somewhere else. I'm just assuming since the ground has probably never been lined I'd need some for sure.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

E.Boman said:


> I understand a soil test is needed. I wouldn't ever spread it without a soil test. All I wanted to know is if anyone knew anything about the product and if it was a good idea or not. I was by no means going to spread it without testing. It's just that it would need to be hauled out here and dumped before I can get soil samples taken. And if someone did have experience with it I wanted a general ton/acre so I'd get enough I didn't need an exact number. If I got enough for 4 ton an acre and when I get samples done and only need 2 ton then the rest would just sit on the side of the field untill I needed it somewhere else. I'm just assuming since the ground has probably never been lined I'd need some for sure.


Pretty safe assumption on needing lime.

No worries of high soil ph here.


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## jwise87 (Sep 16, 2015)

Heck at the price go ahead and get it and if further research proves it wouldn't work for what you want it to use it as fill dirt or road pack.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> Pretty safe assumption on needing lime.
> No worries of high soil ph here.


 I agree ,any owned or ongoing leased land, we spread one ton per acre of Lime every other year. In our dirt You don't want to wait till the PH is low . Playing pH catch up can be very costly.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

endrow said:


> I agree ,any owned or ongoing leased land, we spread one ton per acre of Lime every other year. In our dirt You don't want to wait till the PH is low . Playing pH catch up can be very costly.


And slow....


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Friend luke strawwalker what are all these strange people with their strange ground so excited about?

Personally I would never consider applying any kind of lime to my soil! &c &c

Now for a serious consideration to increase pH why not dump sodium on the ground? Calcium will only increase pH to maybe 8.2, while sodium will take the pH up into the 9 pH range,

If a pH in the 8.7 range will be their salvation then dump Magnesium on their ground.

Here in Bell County ( TX ) few fields have much less than 8,000 ppm Ca or a pH lower than 7.7.

With a few around here having a 6% Free Lime in the soil analysis. Just how much calcium carbonate is 6% in their 6" of top soil.

Fortunately for me I most of my ground is only 4% free lime. Plus an 8,500 ppm Ca.

How much of their exotic lime would it require to have that kind of soil analysis?

Now what I HAVE learned for my soil is my plant analysis will usually show an excess of Ca.

At the same time the plant analysis will be in the mildly deficient range for potassium.

Here we can dump potash on our ground, lower the calcium uptake as we increase the potassium uptake.

Twenty years ago an Ill in noise farmer had the idea. He has a field next to a dirt road graveled with lime stone and he had some interesting observations within a few feet of that road.

I wonder how many of these people have ever heard of Shiner Beer?


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## 1oldphart (Aug 20, 2014)

As a producer of this concrete slurry Calif. has required exhausting tests and we have them. the ph is in the 8-9 range and it does take 3 times as much to do what straight ag lime does. The heavy metals and petroleum are below detectable amounts. The downside? adds to the plasticity index of your soil (makes clay soils clayeier) helps add structure to sandy soils, SLOWLY adds ph to your soil. and the biggest drawback is that it has varying amounts of ground up Asphalt included with it. I have used it on my own field with mixed results but my soils trend toward 6-6.5 ph. to conclude, if its free or real cheap, or you have real sandy soil and water retention is a problem go for it. otherwise pass it by....paul


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

A. It isn't lime.

B. It never will be lime.

C. If you need lime, it is better to go the old fashioned way with ground limestone, you can go faster with burnt lime but you don't always get what you want.

D. If it is free, you just don't really know the cost yet, but it is still there.

E. I would pass. Get soil tests when you can, and develop a methodical game plan when you get the test results.

I am reminded of an episode when I was running a County Landfill in Northern Va. You are always in need of topsoil for stabilization of fill slopes. The Water authority consultants called me wanting to give me free better than topsoil dredgings from the authority reservoir. I said why do you want to give it to me and they said it is muck and we don't have anywhere to dry it. Cost # 1, prepare a drying bed, put in erosion controls, temp seeding etc, already not free. Spread it around when it was delivered-ties up machine and operator, now really not free. I asked for test results for toxics, knowing full well they were there. "Its great stuff, no issues with toxics just topsoil eroded from farm land with extra organic matter". So you don't have tests, huh? Then I told them that I wanted TCLP tests on the material and suddenly they stopped calling. They probably already had the tests which showed metals, pesticides and VOCs in the material and were hoping to pass their free toxic material off on some dope. I am not a dope. The moral of the story is as others have pointed out-this is not the first time this material has been generated, so it is not new. If it is so great for general agricultural use, especially with your resident cost of lime, it would be in common use and it would no longer be free. All of this information is worth exactly what you paid for it. Good luck, rick


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Darn I wish I had kept the rough draft as my finished product is gone. All gone, now anyway.

Luke Straw Walker Not everyone has acid soils like most that we find on these pages.

Calcium will only take a soil up to 8.1 or 8.2 pH. Magnesium will get the pH up in the 8.8 pH range.
To get above 9.0 pH requires some sodium.

Here in much of Bell County, TX we run 7.7 to 8.2 pH the difference is how much Mg we have. A few put out K-Mag but our Mg is mostly native.

To get into the 9.0 pH range needs sodium. The Lampasas River is salty but not high like the Pecos River.

Not all the Central Texas Blacklands are calcareous, but most of Bell County is and enough of the Blacklands are to give us all a bad reputation.

Here we can expect 8,000 ppm Ca plus a 5% free lime. We can make good crops just not using the East Texas or TAMU ways to farm.

I mostly look at plant analysis to make my guesses for fertility needs

In my youth Shiner Beer was seldom found out of the Shiner City limits, but we now see some in the Supermarkets here at Temple, TX. Things change as now Jax Beer is not for sale anywhere, not even in New Orleans.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Yeah... Ideal soil pH is between 6.8 and 7.2... get much beyond that and you start tying up nutrients in your soil-- they can't be absorbed by plants almost regardless of how much is there...

I'm aware of how the soils up north tend to get more and more acidic over time, and the needs to lime. We have almost the opposite problem here... When I was row cropping, I only had a soil test pH come back with a 7.0 ONCE-- and that was after I had put in a sorghum crop and put a LOT of fertilizer under it in a fairly dry year. 98% of the time, our pH would be rock solid at 7.2. We had an abnormally wet year when nearly everything drowned and it was 7.4. BUT, we're on deep black clayey soil here... you don't even hit a ribbon sand until you're about 15 feet down, and hit the first water sand at 18-20 feet, then alternating sand/clay/gravel beds down in the water table below that... no solid bedrock until you get down several hundred feet deep here... They say all this land was laid down as sea bottom before the last ice age, that it's deep alluvial deposits... BTW our salt is negligible, almost nonexistant...

What I know of liming is what I've read... If you want "instant results" (fast as possible, anyway) then use finely ground pelleted lime-- the pellets dissolve and release the fine particles into the soil where the increased surface area of the finely ground particles can RAPIDLY interact with the soil particles to produce the desired effects. If you want cheaper, use the regular coarsely ground lime. Larger particles have less surface area per unit mass, so the effectiveness of it is slower and spread out over a longer period of time. If you want cheaper still, use some of the ash or this concrete dust crap and takes yer chances... If you need magnesium or want to improve tilth of tight soils (clays usually) apply K-mag or gypsum instead of lime...

Something that's "free" is usually worth about what you paid for it... not always, but usually. For instance, there was a big thing about spreading municipal sludge for fertilizer... yeah, it's cheap to the point it's nearly free, BUT, the heavy metals toxicity and contamination issues from drug residues and other such things make it HIGHLY undesirable to use it on any land worth having...

I know years ago I looked at possibly getting chicken litter to fertilize our hay fields. I talked to the guy at the egg plant just past the next town across the river, and got a quote and analysis... Then I called my regular fertilizer guy and got a quote on the last analysis my soil test called for. When I did the math, the chicken crap ended up being HIGHER than the cost of regular chemical fertilizer... For one 20-odd acre bermudagrass field, it was going to take about 4 semi-loads of manure... they would let me use the spreader for free, but since it was so big they recommended I only fill it half full since I'd be pulling it with a 5610S Ford... (72 horse). I could load with own front end loader to spread it. The fertilizer dealer's quote was for dry fertilizer loaded in their spreader, with me picking it up and towing it home and returning the spreader. I called the guy back to make sure that I had gotten the numbers right, as I couldn't imagine manure being more than chemical fertilizer...he said, "Yep, that's right... we can sell chicken litter all day long to organic rice producers, because they have to fertilize heavily, and cannot use chemical fertilizers and maintain organic certification..." SO, they had jacked up the price of their "organic" fertilizer... (which I didn't even ask, but probably had plenty of drug residues in it from the chicken feed...)

Anyway... As for Shiner beer, yeah Shiner beer and the Spoetzl Brewery nearly went broke in the 90's... they got bought out by some outfit that's taking Shiner Beer nationwide as one of these "artisanal" brands... you can get a Shiner beer in some of these swank upscale joints in New York and elsewhere now... they're completing work on doubling the size (or more) of the brewery in Shiner as well... been on the tour many times... They also offer a line of various "summer ales" and "winter brews" and stuff... the honey wheat isn't too bad, nor the "Hohzenweiler" or whatever (however it's spelled) but I still prefer a Shiner Bock when I drink a beer...

http://www.shiner.com/

Later! OL J R


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

In Texas, pelleted lime is not the product one wants to use to increase the pH of acid soils. Think about it. Most of the acid soils are established to perennial grasses such as Coastal and Tifton 85 bermudagrasses. This means that the limestone applied to the soil surface will not be incorporated into the soil. So, pellets of lime applied to the soil surface will melt in place when it rains. When the pellets melt the lime does not disperse away from the pellet location, so you have spots of lime on the soil. The ECCE 100% dry lime is at least 75% of the limestone sold from the Texas Crushed Stone Co. at Georgetown, and 100% of the limestone sold from Franklin Minerals at Nolanville. This limestone is almost like talcum powder with about 8% moisture to prevent it from blowing away when spread. Using this very fine limestone (not in pelleted form) we get much better coverage of the soil surface than with pellets of limestone. Limestone from both quarries contains about 4% magnesium. Also, pelleted limestone is more expensive than the ECCE 100% limestone sold by both quarries.

Also, there is little difference in price of the old ag-grade limestone (ECCE 64%) compared to the very fine ECCE 100% limestone applied to the soil. The old ag-grade limestone actually costs more to increase soil pH to the same level as when using the ECCE 100% limestone. Here's why.

All the limestone applied as ECCE 100% is reactive with acidity to raise pH, while only 64% of the old ag-grade limestone is reactive. The other 36% of the ag-grade limestone will do little to increase soil pH. It is like rock that could just as well be dropped beside the field gate, or used for improving farm and ranch roads. In order to get the same weight of reactive limestone applied as ECCE 64%, we must apply about 1.6 tons of this coarse-ground limestone per acre to get pH change results similar to what we would get by applying 1.0 ton of the ECCE 100% limestone per acre.

In my location, ECCE 100% limestone can be purchased and applied for about $60 per ton. The ECCE 64% may be about $2 per ton cheaper at the quarry. If trucked, the fuel, etc, cost is the same. So if one needs to apply 1 ton of the ECCE 100% limestone at $60 per ton, the rate of ECCE 64% limestone would need to be about 1.6 tons. If my math is correct, 1.6 tons x $58/ton equals $92.80, or $32.80 more.

Actual research results have shown that 2 tons of the coarse ECCE 64% limestone are needed to produce the same pH change as obtained using the fine ECCE 100% limestone.

Sorry for getting long-winded.

Vincent


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## Farmineer95 (Aug 11, 2014)

Is calcitic lime as available as dolamitic lime? For me sitting with 65 ft of red clay on top of the niagra escarpment I need to be cautious about lime type. Dolamitic can make a nice runway being so tight.
Keep in mind ph doesn't mean the soil is healthy. The ph of a glasss of water might fall in your target range but the nutrients available to plants are virtually non existent.
Last years soil test with what crops removed from field since then should provide idea of where you are for nutrient levels.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Farmineer95 said:


> Is calcitic lime as available as dolamitic lime? For me sitting with 65 ft of red clay on top of the niagra escarpment I need to be cautious about lime type. Dolamitic can make a nice runway being so tight.
> Keep in mind ph doesn't mean the soil is healthy. The ph of a glasss of water might fall in your target range but the nutrients available to plants are virtually non existent.
> Last years soil test with what crops removed from field since then should provide idea of where you are for nutrient levels.


 I agree is important to balance the pH but soil that has the proper pH is not necessarily healthy. I was always told when you read the soil sample test, the higher the CEC number the better the health / tilth of the soil. It also refers to the soil's ability to hold absorb and make available nutrients. In our area 10 or better would be a good number but I understand in some other areas that number would have to be much higher to indicate good soil health


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

It was pointed out to me I must've had a brain fart... sounds like Vhaby's got the idea...

Later! OL J R


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