# True or false: Sickle versus disc cutter



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

An "individual of experience" today told me a sickle mower is less damaging to grass hay than a disc mower.
This results in a healthier stand if a sickle type mower is used.

True or False?


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I don't think it makes a difference. I didn't notice any difference when we switched from sickle to disc. Depending on your location how high you cut it matters with regard to recovery time. But if you want a true or false statement I would say false based on my experience.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Maybe and then again maybe not. There are probably other factors involved in his observations. First a disc cutter generally cuts closer to the ground than a sickle machine which does impede the regrowth somewhat. A disc cutter will mow with with extremely dull and worn out knives but a sickle machine will make you stop sooner and replace the sections. So you may get a crop healthier cut with a sickle machine in those conditions.

Whether the sickle machine is easier on the crop than a disc cutter is in the beholders eye. One factor for certain is a disc cutter is easier on the operator.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

IMO, either can be good or bad. When they are sharp, sickle or disc, both cut the leaf clean and sharp. When dull, they tear the leaf, leaving jagged edges.

It is the way the leaf is cut that is good or bad. The jagged edge allows fungi/bacteria to infect the plant more than a clean cut.

A lot of people I know run their disc mower until the blades are almost completely rounded simply because they can get away with it. A sickle mower will force the user to change sections more often.

BTW: The same thing applies to a shredder.

Ralph

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

rjmoses said:


> A lot of people I know run their disc mower until the blades are almost completely rounded simply because they can get away with it. A sickle mower will force the user to change sections more often.
> 
> Ralph


Get away with it or just to lazy to change them?I've baled fields were it was cut so bad they probably left 1/2 ton per acre just because they didn't take the time or energy to change the blades.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I heard the same wives tale years ago regarding disc machines being harder on alfalfa as well. With the time you save with a disc machine compared to a sickle, running with dull blades on a discbine is just lazy.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

JD, when I first considered the switch I too wondered. Is it like the difference between using scissor vs a sword? Perhaps but the speed of travel of the blades I think make up for the action. Also as stated before sharp knives makes a world of difference. IMHO. Martin

Ps. Vermeer quick clips Rule!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

The "man of experience" is probably too cheap to buy a disc mower.

Bet he is kin to the "man of great experience" who told me I was wasting money buying a baler with net. His did not have net and therefor twine was the way to go.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

You got fire ants ... you don't want no damn sickle cutter.


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Alfalfa should be cut according to height of new shoots at the base of the plant. If they are cut off removing the present cutting, then regrowth of the next cutting is retarded. So check the regrowth to determine when to cut. It is far more important than the type of cutter head.


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## kyfred (Dec 23, 2009)

I like the thoughts Get er Done. Either will work we grew up with a cycle mower and now have a disc mower. I like the idea of not having to stop and unplug a cycle mower. Disc mower you can drive on.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm guilty of running dull disc mower blades. I'm not lazy but I'm cheap. We have lots and lots of rocks which ruin the blades in short order. I've never worn out a set, they just get worn or ruined from rock strikes. I will put new blades on for my cleanest fields, but I save the old blades to go back on for the bad fields. With only one or two cuts here the regrowth isn't a problem. I've never had trouble with uncut strips except after bad rockstrikes or breaking the blades off.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

slowzuki said:


> I'm guilty of running dull disc mower blades. I'm not lazy but I'm cheap. We have lots and lots of rocks which ruin the blades in short order. I've never worn out a set, they just get worn or ruined from rock strikes. I will put new blades on for my cleanest fields, but I save the old blades to go back on for the bad fields. With only one or two cuts here the regrowth isn't a problem. I've never had trouble with uncut strips except after bad rockstrikes or breaking the blades off.


Roll your fields it will save your blades.BIGTIME.

Running dull blades penny wise and dollar foolish??

I can actually tell when blades are dull on the pull of the tractor.So that means things are pulling harder and I am burning more fuel.Not enough to measure but I'm sure over enough acres it adds up.

If you just leave a little extra hay in field from not getting a clean cut it will add up to tons eventually.

Blades are under $2 a piece.

Sometimes being tight don't pay.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

I agree the height of the cut and amount of stubble left is far more important than what you used to cut it.

A 4" grinder works wonders in keeping knives sharp on a discbine versus replacing everytime one gets a boo-boo.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sounds like a cordless mini grinder is a no brainer in the toolbox if you own a discbine!


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I run grass shoes, AKA high stubble kit on my mowers. I can adjust my 7230 from 3 1/2 to 5 1/2" cut. I run taller on grass and shorter on alfalfa. Losing that extra inch or so on the doesn't cost that much and sure helps re-growth, especially grasses

And they save the blades when mowing over mole hills, into the dirt, rocks, etc.

Ralph


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

1. Yes I can slightly notice the power, I'm guessing less than 5 hp difference. I notice a much larger effect from the header weight setting. I don't leave streaks. Even dull I mow my lawn with my disc mower conditioner!

2. Not rollable rocks. Ledge, monsters etc. I'm ok in fields I've been in for 10 years as I've got a memory of the bad ones or have jackhammered off the tops of the worst ones.

3. Blades aren't 2$ each for Pottinger NovaCats. Closer to 8$, they are reversible though, so 100$ to refresh.



swmnhay said:


> Roll your fields it will save your blades.BIGTIME.
> 
> Running dull blades penny wise and dollar foolish??
> 
> ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rjmoses said:


> I run grass shoes, AKA high stubble kit on my mowers. I can adjust my 7230 from 3 1/2 to 5 1/2" cut. I run taller on grass and shorter on alfalfa. Losing that extra inch or so on the doesn't cost that much and sure helps re-growth, especially grasses
> 
> And they save the blades when mowing over mole hills, into the dirt, rocks, etc.
> 
> Ralph


Ralph,

No regrets on the 7230?
There's 10 lightly used 7230's within 1 hour of me.
May go with 7330 w/ flails or H7550.

Anything noteworthy you dislike? I have no brand loyalty.

One other thing the "experienced individual" said. In a very polite way, he trashed my Kubota. Said Deere transmissions were twice as big and Deere engines made far more torque. Told me to think about a smaller 9' disc cutter or I might "F___ up my tractor because it's too hard on my transmission". I'm thinking to myself "I'm basically pulling a 2-tire 5,000lb trailer over mostly flat ground with a 126HP tractor." "Hard on transmission??? Huh??"


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

slowzuki said:


> 1. Yes I can slightly notice the power, I'm guessing less than 5 hp difference. I notice a much larger effect from the header weight setting. I don't leave streaks. Even dull I mow my lawn with my disc mower conditioner!
> 
> 2. Not rollable rocks. Ledge, monsters etc. I'm ok in fields I've been in for 10 years as I've got a memory of the bad ones or have jackhammered off the tops of the worst ones.
> 
> 3. Blades aren't 2$ each for Pottinger NovaCats. Closer to 8$, they are reversible though, so 100$ to refresh.


WOW.You need a jack hammer for farming,that would suck.

$10 blades would suck also.No one has aftermarket?I did look in my Shoup book no luck there.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> Ralph,
> 
> No regrets on the 7230?
> There's 10 lightly used 7230's within 1 hour of me.
> ...


I'm going into my 3rd season with it. No regrets. (Knock on wood.) It's a 10'6 cut. I pull it with a 135HP NH tractor. It does make the tractor work a little, but I usually run 7-8th gear.

I wouldn't think it would be hard on the transmission at all as long as your running a reasonable gear for your ground. But, if your ground is really rough, jerking back and forth might cause a lighter tranny to belly up.

Sharp blades make a lot of difference in how much a mower pulls down the tractor. I will periodically touch up the outside edge with a grinder. Change blades at least once a year.

Ask this guy what his blood type is--it might be JD Green.

Ralph


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I turn blades after 25 hours and change at 50 hrs.......unless needed sooner, usually go through a couple of sets a year. But that's me.....


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> One other thing the "experienced individual" said. In a very polite way, he trashed my Kubota. Said Deere transmissions were twice as big and Deere engines made far more torque. Told me to think about a smaller 9' disc cutter or I might "F___ up my tractor because it's too hard on my transmission". I'm thinking to myself "I'm basically pulling a 2-tire 5,000lb trailer over mostly flat ground with a 126HP tractor." "Hard on transmission??? Huh??"


You see a lot of Kubota tractors in the hay fields around here. Row crops are mostly green.
If Kubota was not doing something right they would be belly up by now. A lot of orange pulling green and yellow balers and hay equipment. Most are under 100 HP so I would think 126 would be plenty.
I bet your "experienced" friend had green skid marks on his Fruit of the Looms.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Changing blade on a disk mower.

I have a 1/2 inch drive air wrench to loosen the knuts and and a dedicated 3/8 inch impact wrench to tighten at the proper tourck.

Nothing is as easy to change blades on as a Drum mower, but here I have to turn those blades every 10 acres.

Alfalfa the blades can be a little dull but for bermudagrass the blades need to be sharp. 
I pull it with a Dutch Allis 6260 less than 60 hp, and in alfalfa I can run at 11 mph, (have to down shift to turn) In a first year stand I can run at 16 mph, (have to down shift two gears to turn)

Bermudagrass in a light stand I can run at 11 mph but 7 mph is more common.

Fire ants in a cycle mower are the pits. With the disk system the Ant mounds will cause mud to build up between disks and the machine will bridge.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

There's a lot of folks of the last generation that aren't used to the idea of light high hp tractors. Yes compared to a JD 7000 series of the same pto hp the Kubota castings are puny but so what? That JD is built to be heavy and strong enough to hang lots of weigh off it for tillage. No reason to drive it all over productive hay fields.

An M120 works out to be handy to a 100 hp tractor, compared to a 6000 series Deere at 100 hp there isn't a huge difference in component sizes.



JD3430 said:


> Said Deere transmissions were twice as big and Deere engines made far more torque. Told me to think about a smaller 9' disc cutter or I might "F___ up my tractor because it's too hard on my transmission". I'm thinking to myself "I'm basically pulling a 2-tire 5,000lb trailer over mostly flat ground with a 126HP tractor." "Hard on transmission??? Huh??"


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I can't drive 16 mph in some sections of the highway here!



hay wilson in TX said:


> turn) In a first year stand I can run at 16 mph, (have to down shift two gears to turn)


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> There's a lot of folks of the last generation that aren't used to the idea of light high hp tractors. Yes compared to a JD 7000 series of the same pto hp the Kubota castings are puny but so what? That JD is built to be heavy and strong enough to hang lots of weigh off it for tillage. No reason to drive it all over productive hay fields.
> 
> An M120 works out to be handy to a 100 hp tractor, compared to a 6000 series Deere at 100 hp there isn't a huge difference in component sizes.


I think the Kubota m 1xx series tractors are comparable to 6000 series Deere tractors in some ways, but won't hold resale value and probably won't last quite as long, either. Price was $8,000 less. 
I thought buying a Kubota was smart in the sense that it only weighs 10,000 lbs, which was lighter than the Deere. That means less compaction. No plans to till, but I think it could in moderation. 
I know Deere's the best, but I can't afford the best.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

On the original disc vs sickle thread ...sharp blades, whichever way you go is the trick in Indiana. I was always told by the old-timers that sickle was better for alfalfa, but believe sharp blades on either machine is the key and finding the right speed. Some guys just try to drive to fast because they have a discbine. For me I use a haybine because I do not have a lot of acreage and they are cheap to operate and easy to maintain. If I could afford it and had more ground, I would go discbine in a heartbeat, because I am mowing more and more grass all the time and am adding teff to the mix of fields and believe that would be a better cutter for me personally.

Kubota talk...I have to say the folks I know with Kubotas love them, they hold up well and are are actually where I am going for a new hay farm/loader tractor. I have driven a few and like them very much. I have found local John Deere dealers do not have the time of day for hay farmers, they are just about the row croppers. Also Kubota still has independent dealers, not this merged dealer garbage the big companies have went to. A good relationship with a dealer is worth its weight in gold and I have found a good one in Plainfield, IN.

I am curious to see how Kubota does with the new purchases of the European equipment lines, to include the Italian baler company. If they can bring the quality control they possess in the tractors to the hay equipment I believe they will be a real up and comer. Of course the big balers and large tractors needed to pull them are outside Kubotas scope, but another company in the small bale and round baler business could be very good for us as a community.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well....not to be a smart *ss but depending on the old timer, how much experience do they actually have with discbines? I know of an old timer that still plows all his ground, then discs, then drags it, then finally plants after he has 6 inches of powder.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

downtownjr said:


> I am curious to see how Kubota does with the new purchases of the European equipment lines, to include the Italian baler company. If they can bring the quality control they possess in the tractors to the hay equipment I believe they will be a real up and comer. Of course the big balers and large tractors needed to pull them are outside Kubotas scope, but another company in the small bale and round baler business could be very good for us as a community.


Where did I miss this? I did a little research, did they buy Kverneland or someone else? Are they planning on marketing any of this stuff in the US?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

downtownjr said:


> On the original disc vs sickle thread ...sharp blades, whichever way you go is the trick in Indiana. I was always told by the old-timers that sickle was better for alfalfa, but believe sharp blades on either machine is the key and finding the right speed. Some guys just try to drive to fast because they have a discbine. For me I use a haybine because I do not have a lot of acreage and they are cheap to operate and easy to maintain. If I could afford it and had more ground, I would go discbine in a heartbeat, because I am mowing more and more grass all the time and am adding teff to the mix of fields and believe that would be a better cutter for me personally.
> 
> Kubota talk...I have to say the folks I know with Kubotas love them, they hold up well and are are actually where I am going for a new hay farm/loader tractor. I have driven a few and like them very much. I have found local John Deere dealers do not have the time of day for hay farmers, they are just about the row croppers. Also Kubota still has independent dealers, not this merged dealer garbage the big companies have went to. A good relationship with a dealer is worth its weight in gold and I have found a good one in Plainfield, IN.
> 
> I am curious to see how Kubota does with the new purchases of the European equipment lines, to include the Italian baler company. If they can bring the quality control they possess in the tractors to the hay equipment I believe they will be a real up and comer. *Of course the big balers and large tractors needed to pull them are outside Kubotas scope, *but another company in the small bale and round baler business could be very good for us as a community.


Kubota is going to get into the big tractor market. They announced it about a year ago. I dont think they're going to build them "in house", though.
My guess is they use one of the FIAT tractors and paint it "sun fade" orange.

I think its a mistake. They should set short term goals to add 25HP to their line every 2 years with the end game being 200HP big frame tractor. I think they should build a plant in the southern US and give the tractor line an American feel to it.
Kubota already has a "strategic alliance" with Landpride. I'm curious if Kubota will market their hay/farm tools with Landpride or they will cut ties with Landpride and go solo?

Sound like to me that sharp discbine blades are the key to keeping up with a haybine in terms of stem-cut quality. I think angling the bar makes for an angled cut, opening the stem to more chance of disease?


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

_As said earlier, cutting height is very important. We cut mostly alfalfa/orchard grass in a 60/40 split. We cut at a height you would for alfalfa, around 2-3 inches, when the orchardgrass should have been cut at least 4". Speed wise, in mostly alfalfa, our disc conditioners were not really faster than our sickle mower. You can only feed the conditioning rolls so fast in either machine._

_Our NH dealer always claimed that a disc mower was the way to go in grass, but a sickle mower was better in pure alfalfa stands._


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm looking at moving to a discbine as improving my reliability, getting rid of an older less reliable machine. One less engine and transmission to go bad. It also fits in lower height barns.
I think it will move faster through crop, but I will miss cutting in front of me.
Still gotta sell the haybine first.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

gradyjohn said:


> You got fire ants ... you don't want no damn sickle cutter.


......Nor crawdad mounds.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

I am currently running a drum mower. It has 3 blades per drum and it takes about 10 seconds to replace one and you can use both sides of the blade by taking it off one drum and putting it on the other. Blades are a buck a piece from SFI in central TX.

My drum is setup to cut 3" off the ground but usually it is more like 4-5 if I run fast with it; AND it will cut nicely as fast as you can run the tractor and hang onto the seat. When I ran a sickle, it was hard to get over an inch or so and you couldn't rush the cut.

No fireants, no crawdads, no clogging, no busted sections, no having to pull the cutter bar, on and on and on..........

Never again.

Mark


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## atgreene (May 19, 2013)

Sorry to bump up an old thread, but was curious about your drum mower Mark. Still like it? Would you do anything different? Do you have the large one?

I'm looking to upgrade from a 990 IH mo co. I do about 80+ acres, but lots of typical NE fields, small, irregular shape and lots of rocks.

Thanks!


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Not to take away from your Drum Mower ? but since my wife and son started running a disc mower last year they are ready to sell the Haybine. I never thought I'd hear her say that. She's even thinking of adding a Flail machine this year to go with the Roller conditioner.

As far as knives and replacing them. Here's the way I look at, for about the cost of one good round bale you can replace a knives not counting your labor. It doesn't pay to run dull blades. They tried 2 brands of blades this year Kuhn and JD, I don't know if it was the field conditions or what but the JD blades still look almost new and the Kuhn blades were badly worn after 40-50 acres on both sets. The Kuhn's had to be replaced after the 40-50 acres and then the JD's were run on about the same amount of acres and we were shocked at how little wear they had. With an impact wrench, a wooden block and an torque wrench you change a set of 12 knives in about 45 mins to an hour and not push it.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hey grateful I have the size bigger machine than you and I usually change knives in about 20 minutes. But the first time in the season is a bit longer but after doing it a couple of times it gets faster. I did look into drum mowers but they dont seem to come with any sort of conditioner system so I went with the discbine. Happy with it so far.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

A lot of the european disc mower conditioners (mines a pottinger) use quick change knife holders. If you pushed it you could do them all in 5 mins, probably 7 min normally.

Bought a CIH 3309 as a backup machine, would like to try cutting with it next year. It unfortunately has bolted knives.

Either way, both are faster than changing a sickle section or guard.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

atgreene said:


> Sorry to bump up an old thread, but was curious about your drum mower Mark. Still like it? Would you do anything different? Do you have the large one?


this just means the main issues for all of us never go away. As stated in the posts, sharp means the most, maybe equal is cut height. Know I am going to higher cut height this year with my NH discbine. the db is just way faster and cleaner and cuts in pouring rain clean. one of my friends compared a bushhog clip to sickle bar as cut with a razor vs beat with a hammer-which heals faster. However, I don't think that applies to a discbine with sharp blades. I check ever morning I am going to cut with a 4" grinder-easy to touch up in a couple of minutes adn it is worth the effort.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

I've found a cordless impact gun is awesome for changing blades. I swapped to the Kuhn humped rock blades late into 2nd cut, not sure if I'm sold or not.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Dill said:


> I've found a cordless impact gun is awesome for changing blades. I swapped to the Kuhn humped rock blades late into 2nd cut, not sure if I'm sold or not.


What's the theory behind the humped back blades.....


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

I change or flip my blades every day, I have cordless impacts in every tractor so it makes quick work out of it. We did get a cordless grinder too and sometimes we get 3 days out of a set of blades. Some people ask why we change them so often? It's simple, we do lots of custom work and everybody in the business runs the same baler and for the most part everybody's bales look the same. What sets us apart is how clean the field looks when we get done. I tell anybody running a cutter if they miss a spot there is a weedeater in the truck to clean it up when we are done. And as some have stated, the machines pull better with a good sharp blade.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Dill said:


> I've found a cordless impact gun is awesome for changing blades. I swapped to the Kuhn humped rock blades late into 2nd cut, not sure if I'm sold or not.


Kuhn makes a blade like the one on the left? These are New Holland Blades. I'm assuming when you say humped rock blades you're talking about something similar to these. Seeing as how Kuhn won't let just anyone view their parts online it's really hard to know what the heck they offer. I've spoke with someone at Kuhn about not being able to see parts online and they claim they're going to have that worked out this year.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Dill said:


> I've found a cordless impact gun is awesome for changing blades. I swapped to the Kuhn humped rock blades late into 2nd cut, not sure if I'm sold or not.


the cordless impact gun has to be the greatest tool to come along since the electric band saw. don't know what I would do without it. Have a dewalt 18v and when fully charged it will ring your wrist. Great for disc blades, rake teeth and tedder teeth.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I very seldom get the chance to flip the blades. With the rocks and mole hills I have the blades bend up. I keep a large cresent wrench to bend them back down till the next time I change blades. I dont have a cordless impact but do use and electric impact.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't get money for it but I go back with a bushhog and clean up in folks ditches and fencerows and around telephone poles etc. I'm the only guy haying around here so folks know exactly who it is if there is a mess.



Lewis Ranch said:


> I tell anybody running a cutter if they miss a spot there is a weedeater in the truck to clean it up when we are done.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes they look exactly like those New Holland blades on the left. The only reason I found out about them is the dealer had one on the counter from a previous customer.


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