# Happy birthday Fuel Cell tractor!



## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

In 1959, Allis Chalmers engineers designed and built a 1 only fuel cell tractor. Machine was nearing 100% efficiency per pound of input. It's still on view at McLeod County Historical Society. Awesome to look at.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

I think that fuel cell is the way we'll go, all those hybrids and plug-in electric are nothing more than a stop gap.

I know that electric motors have quite a bit of torque, but will they have enough for agricultural use? I hope so. but have no idea.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Thats one fugly tractor.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> Thats one fugly tractor.


Kinda fitting, the building it sits in ain't much to look at either.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Electric motors are ideal for agriculture. Its the fuel cell side of things that isn't mature.



Trillium Farm said:


> I think that fuel cell is the way we'll go, all those hybrids and plug-in electric are nothing more than a stop gap.
> 
> I know that electric motors have quite a bit of torque, but will they have enough for agricultural use? I hope so. but have no idea.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

slowzuki said:


> Electric motors are ideal for agriculture. Its the fuel cell side of things that isn't mature.


The fuel cell is mature enough, so much so that in California & another state (can't remember which) Toyota has already fuel cell cars. What's holding up the progress is infrastructure, but that too is being developed.


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## dvcochran (Oct 1, 2017)

Looked like the power-to-weight ratio was way terrible during the era that tractor was built in. I suspect it is closer today but not enough for very large scale applications. It will find some kind of niche market in the near future and then hopefully it or some other technology will make bigger moves forward in technology.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Electric motors are perfect for any application that requires torque. The motor will produce 100% torque right down to stall speed. I believe motor technology is ready but the fuel cell technology isn't quite there yet. Probably in about 30 years things will be good and somewhat affordable. Far too much money to be made in the oil industry yet to let the electrical propulsion industry prosper.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Ox76 said:


> Electric motors are perfect for any application that requires torque. The motor will produce 100% torque right down to stall speed. I believe motor technology is ready but the fuel cell technology isn't quite there yet. Probably in about 30 years things will be good and somewhat affordable. Far too much money to be made in the oil industry yet to let the electrical propulsion industry prosper.


You & Slowzuki are saying that cell technology isn't quite there yet, why? as far as all I read the only hold back is infrastructure. A tank for hydrogen can easily be available especially for farm use, IF the manufacturers built such a machine.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Regarding electric motors ---- don't forget that that's what powers locomotives. That's some torque alright.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Trillium Farm said:


> You & Slowzuki are saying that cell technology isn't quite there yet, why? as far as all I read the only hold back is infrastructure. A tank for hydrogen can easily be available especially for farm use, IF the manufacturers built such a machine.


I agree that fuel cells are available and that they work. I guess I should have said that they are far too expensive to make them widely available for everyday peoples' use. As far as efficiency rates, I'm sure a little more tweaking can be done. Apparently although hydrogen is everywhere in abundance it is still expensive with hardly any infrastructure and is still heavily dependent on fossil fuels.

The whole encompassing idea of fuel cells and the infrastructure to keep them fueled up isn't quite there yet.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

That's the problem Ox76, the infrastructure, I'm certain though that's the way we are going to go, fuel cell & electric motors! When that happens I'll take a 1st row seat to watch from "Up There" or "Down There" who knows?!


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## dvcochran (Oct 1, 2017)

Ox76 said:


> Electric motors are perfect for any application that requires torque. The motor will produce 100% torque right down to stall speed. I believe motor technology is ready but the fuel cell technology isn't quite there yet. Probably in about 30 years things will be good and somewhat affordable. Far too much money to be made in the oil industry yet to let the electrical propulsion industry prosper.


That us true about D/C motors. An A/C motor would have to have to use an inverter to get decent torque at low rpm's. And if ran frequently at low rpm's heat is a big issue requiring an invert duty motor with special windings.

It is amazing how far batteries have came since Lithium ion technology but I agree, they are still a ways away from extended horsepower rated work.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Regarding electric motors ---- don't forget that that's what powers locomotives. That's some torque alright.


But that also requires a substantial size Diesel engine to build the electric power. Many are over 1000HP.

There are pure electric locomotives, but they require overhead catenary or some kind of energized rail underneath. Even the most modern European and Japanese bullet trains have 25000v overhead catenary.

On a side topic: Why is electric perceived to be so clean and environmentally friendly? 
To make electricity for a "plug-in" powered vehicle requires more large power plants to burn more fossil fuels to create more electricity to re-charge all the batteries. Unless it's nuclear power, I don't see it being "environmentally friendly". And even nuclear power has its own subset of polluting effects.

There's no free lunch with battery power. 
Now a hydrogen powered vehicle is a different story.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> But that also requires a substantial size Diesel engine to build the electric power. Many are over 1000HP.
> 
> There are pure electric locomotives, but they require overhead catenary or some kind on energized rail underneath. Even the most modern European and Japanese bullet trains have 25000v overhead catenary.
> 
> ...


It started with young people thinking that electric energy is clean because they have tunnel vision and they are misinformed. Electric energy is clean, but to produce electricity is not also Nuclear Power is not clean, yes it does not spew anything in he air, but all the byproduct of its "combustion" has to be stored somewhere and its pernicious effects last thousands of years. There is no free lunch in producing energy either.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Then there's battery disposal....
Another big mess
I think concerting the traditional combustion engine to a clean burning renewable source like natural gas is a better way to go.
Infrastructure not a big change and vehicles can be converted fairly easy.
We already have some NG filling stations


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The idea they are clean is generally its much easier to make a heavy fuel, minimally processed fuel, burn clean in a power plant. Its also usually more efficient even after distribution losses and offers the option to make use of the waste heat in a process in some cases.

To crack heavy fuels down to gas and diesel is quite inefficient and IC engines also fairly inefficient.

Hydrogen fuel cells are mature, hydrogen fuel handling not so much. Most of the hold up in fuel cells is trying to make filters and a reformer to process natural gas into a usable hydrogen source.

Natural gas in IC engines a good idea though. It burns clean and efficient even in tiny appliances.



JD3430 said:


> But that also requires a substantial size Diesel engine to build the electric power. Many are over 1000HP.
> 
> There are pure electric locomotives, but they require overhead catenary or some kind of energized rail underneath. Even the most modern European and Japanese bullet trains have 25000v overhead catenary.
> 
> ...


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> We already have some NG filling stations





slowzuki said:


> Natural gas in IC engines a good idea though. It burns clean and efficient even in tiny appliances.


My ultra left uncle the aerospace engineer isn't that keen on nat gas, too many little leaks countrywide are spewing a lot of methane in the air, his words.

Course, he's worked for both Bell and Sikorsky Helicopter, doesn't seem to bother him the least that helicopters are about the worst thing in the air for fuel economy.

Listening to him and another uncle talk stocks he also doesn't seem to mind what he buys as long as it makes him money so he can keep wifey poo happy, a east coast, liberal woman's college graduate.

He's like most of the ultra left, do as I say, not as I do.

A lot of oxygen and a little acetylene in a 2 liter pop bottle makes a heck of a boom, enough compressed NG or hydrogen in a container to get any kind of real mileage or work out of it, is gonna make one hell of a boom boom if breached in an accident.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

A friend of mine always Allis Chalmers was ahead of the rest. . Living just one mile from an AC dealer most of my life there is a lot of Orange loyalty in this part of the county. The video in the beginning of this post talked about a major AC event in Hutchinson Minnesota.. I would not be surprised if people from this area have attended It. Do any HT ers attended


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

endrow said:


> A friend of mine always Allis Chalmers was ahead of the rest. . Living just one mile from an AC dealer most of my life there is a lot of Orange loyalty in this part of the county. The video in the beginning of this post talked about a major AC event in Hutchinson Minnesota.. I would not be surprised if people from this area have attended It. Do any HT ers attended


It's called the Orange Spectacular. All Allis Chalmers/Gleaner show, third weekend in July. Been there many times.

https://orangespectacular.com/


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## dvcochran (Oct 1, 2017)

slowzuki said:


> The idea they are clean is generally its much easier to make a heavy fuel, minimally processed fuel, burn clean in a power plant. Its also usually more efficient even after distribution losses and offers the option to make use of the waste heat in a process in some cases.
> 
> To crack heavy fuels down to gas and diesel is quite inefficient and IC engines also fairly inefficient.
> 
> ...


Yes, and there is the compressed gas, BOOM factor.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Pre-mixed oxidizer and fuel pretty much always make a big boom. Hydrogen interestingly is so buoyant it takes off upwards in a hurry when a container is breached and so far unless you have a fancy type of tank with chemical storage of h2 in a metal matrix or something, you just can't get much H2 stored in a vehicle.

CNG also buoyant but not nearly as much, tanks are at extremely high pressure and are a mechanical explosion hazard first. Not as much of a fire explosion hazard for them except if parked inside. Sometimes see notes on parking garages etc that you can't park CNG vehicles inside.

We are pretty desensitized to the hazards of propane and gasoline but those fuels are also quite dangerous.

Indeed because natural gas was so cheap, a lot of pipelines and distribution networks aren't designed or maintained the best. A group in California did a lot of work air sampling to try to track down some major leaks. Seems the owners of the assets don't always care as the fix is expensive.



mlappin said:


> A lot of oxygen and a little acetylene in a 2 liter pop bottle makes a heck of a boom, enough compressed NG or hydrogen in a container to get any kind of real mileage or work out of it, is gonna make one hell of a boom boom if breached in an accident.


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