# Diesel know-how needed.



## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I have a new-to-me 1845 Case skid steer. I have used it a little bit in the past couple of months and the engine seemed to run just fine. I only ran it at or below ½ throttle which was fast enough for a novice "operator". The tie or two that I had it at or near full throttle, it seemed to surge a little bit like it was starved for fuel, but it had plenty of power.

I hauled it to my shop yesterday to load my grapple, and hauled both home. This morning, I unloaded both and was preparing to move dirt. I heard the engine didn't sound right, so I investigated. Found that the exhaust manifold was loose; I tightened it was back to normal. ...but it wouldn't rev up past @1/3-1/2 throttle. I checked the shut off (to kill the engine) and it was in the correct position (cable-operated, so you never know). I also checked the throttle lever at the pump and it was WFO. I changed fuel filters and started it up, ran fine...up to ½ throttle no-load rpms or so. I thought that I would pump the manual primer pump (it is a stand alone one) and it came apart. It was a plunger held down with a wire bail. I pulled the hose on the outlet side of the primer pump and I wasn't getting fuel through it: I have good flow to it...I thought obstruction in it and plumbed around it. Still not running any better.

Once the engine finally falls off enough that it dies, I can let it sit for 30 seconds and it will fire right up and run for another 5 minutes or so. If I let it sit for an hour or so, it will run a lot longer (20 minutes or so at low HP use).

I'm not a diesel genius, but ALL of the diesels that I have ever worked on, they all have had a lift pump prior to the injector pump. This one does not...I have traced the hoses by hand...no lift pump anywhere. The Injector pump is above the bottom of the tank; the filters are above the injector pump; the priming pump is above the bottom of the tank (no vacuum hoses, wires, etc running to the priming pump and I assume that is ALL it is as it's only about 1" square.

I know this skid steer has had a "new engine" and I can see NO signs of a place for a fuel pump on it.

Surely the injector pump is not designed to PULL fuel from the bottom of the tank (which is approx a foot below the injector pump) and pull fuel through the filters?

My gut is telling me to buy an electric fuel pump to put on it because I have NEVER seen a diesel without a lift pump....but that's just a $50 guess.

Ideas?


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Need to know what 1845 it is. The 1845C had a 4B Cummins in it. The earlier versions all had the Case 188D to the best of my knowledge. The 188D has a Roosa Master injection pump that did not come from the factory with a lift pump.

Edit to add, sure sounds like you have a Roosy with a plugged pump leak off check valve . . . does the exhaust make your eyes water?


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Gearclash said:


> Need to know what 1845 it is. The 1845C had a 4B Cummins in it. The earlier versions all had the Case 188D to the best of my knowledge. The 188D has a Roosa Master injection pump that did not come from the factory with a lift pump.
> 
> Edit to add, sure sounds like you have a Roosy with a plugged pump leak off check valve . . . does the exhaust make your eyes water?


The SN tag does not designate a "C" and I was just looking at the breakdown of the 1845 on the Coleman Equipment website It looks like the 188 engine and the breakdown diagram shows no lift pump. I'm working on it outside, but the exhaust does smell a little strong and is also a little blue. Never had blue smoke before except for a few seconds on start-up. I tried to see the tag on the pump and the last couple of letters are "ADYNE". At least, that's what it looks like.

PS, Is the leak-off check valve something I can troubleshoot and/or is it serviceable without a removal of the injector pump?


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

Plugged tank vent?


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Wethay said:


> Plugged tank vent?


Tried running without cap and also have a good flow of fuel to filters. Strong stream.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

glasswrongsize said:


> The SN tag does not designate a "C" and I was just looking at the breakdown of the 1845 on the Coleman Equipment website It looks like the 188 engine and the breakdown diagram shows no lift pump. I'm working on it outside, but the exhaust does smell a little strong and is also a little blue. Never had blue smoke before except for a few seconds on start-up. I tried to see the tag on the pump and the last couple of letters are "ADYNE". At least, that's what it looks like.
> 
> PS, Is the leak-off check valve something I can troubleshoot and/or is it serviceable without a removal of the injector pump?


Stanadyne bought out Roosa Master. To find the pump leak off valve, trace the leak off lines from the injectors back to the pump. The valve itself is threaded into the top of the pump. In the valve is a spring and ball. The spring inadvertantly acts as a filter to stop debris coming out of the pump, which comes in most cases from a disintegrating governor damper ring. Eventually the debris behind the spring cuts off the leak off flow from the pump and that will effectively stop fuel delivery. It takes some careful picking with a small wire, and compressed air to clean the valve. This will be a recurring problem unless the pump is rebuilt or the valve is gutted--which is somewhat of a gamble.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

The check valve is what the T fitting #35 threads into on the pump.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Ditto what Gearclash stated about clogged check valve(key 41) in IP that fuel return line attaches to. Simple test is loosen the 2 screws(outlined in blue) on timing window,pry rubber gasket loose from IP body,start engine & if engine will accelerate check valve is clogged from deteriorating drive in IP. Another thing to check is filter screen(key 14)


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Gearclash said:


> Stanadyne bought out Roosa Master. To find the pump leak off valve, trace the leak off lines from the injectors back to the pump. The valve itself is threaded into the top of the pump. In the valve is a spring and ball. The spring inadvertantly acts as a filter to stop debris coming out of the pump, which comes in most cases from a disintegrating governor damper ring. Eventually the debris behind the spring cuts off the leak off flow from the pump and that will effectively stop fuel delivery. It takes some careful picking with a small wire, and compressed air to clean the valve. This will be a recurring problem unless the pump is rebuilt or the valve is gutted--which is somewhat of a gamble.





Tx Jim said:


> Ditto what Gearclash stated about clogged check valve(key 41) in IP that fuel return line attaches to. Simple test is loosen the 2 screws(outlined in blue) on timing window,pry rubber gasket loose from IP body,start engine & if engine will accelerate check valve is clogged from deteriorating drive in IP. Another thing to check is filter screen(key 14)


I pulled the "check valve", but mine does not appear to be a check valve. I pulled the line off of the tee and unscrewed the assy out of the top of the pump. In the bottom of the check valve is a very small screen which is staked in; I cleaned that. I removed the tee from the valve (not knowing the power of spring or how small, I took it apart while draped with a towel to catch any pieces), but there was no spring or ball contained between the tee and the check valve. I can see through it and can see through the screen. Using a small pick/probe, I felt inside of the pump from the check valve hole and there was no obstruction-I could feel the throttle moving from within the hole. Reinstalled and started; no change.

Going back out to pull inlet screen (part 14) and, if it is not dirty, will take timing cover loose and try that (saving that for last as it is the most difficult to reach and easiest to lose parts/goodies.)


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I was going to mention vent cap, but wethay beat me to it. However, here is a 'dumb' thought of the day maybe, how about putting a couple of pounds air pressure on the fuel tank to help force the fuel into pump?

Go ahead, won't be the first time I got hit for a stupid idea.

Larry


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Okay, if the check valve is not plugged, try running the engine with the leak off return line removed. If the leak off line is plugged any where, the engine will not run or will run poorly. I had the return fitting in the tank plug on my 856. Same symptoms as a plugged check valve.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

r82230 said:


> I was going to mention vent cap, but wethay beat me to it. However, here is a 'dumb' thought of the day maybe, how about putting a couple of pounds air pressure on the fuel tank to help force the fuel into pump?
> 
> Go ahead, won't be the first time I got hit for a stupid idea.
> 
> Larry


considered that, but thought that I would be pressurizing BOTH sides..the inlet and the return. I'd stick my tongue in a meat grinder if I thought it would help.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Gearclash said:


> Okay, if the check valve is not plugged, try running the engine with the leak off return line removed. If the leak off line is plugged any where, the engine will not run or will run poorly. I had the return fitting in the tank plug on my 856. Same symptoms as a plugged check valve.


Update. (still have not found anything that looks like a check valve on return side).

I pulled screen on inlet side and there was a little crud in it. Cleaned with air and solvent. There is a check valve (spring loaded sliding cylinder that seats on bottom of assy) on the inlet screen assy.

I took loose the timing plate (as Jim suggested) and it ran great. I didn't run it too long like that, but it looks like that made the difference...just can't run it like that.

When I removed the line from the top of the Tee, I had to plug it off as fuel was running back out of through the tank. It appears it no not clogged from the tank, across the tops of the injectors, and to the pump.

You guys have the problem cornered now...just to make it surrender is the next step.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I pulled the cap from the Tee (one side of the tee goes across the tops of the injectors and returns to the tank after the injectors and the other side of the tee is capped) and started the engine. There was very little to no flow coming out of the tee.

I will try to find breakdown of the top of the pump before I pull the top cap (that the check valve screws into) as I assume the check valve must be integrated into a gallery in the cap?


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Here are pics of pump and sn plate if that helps


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Final update.

Gearclash and TxJim were both correct and extremely helpful.

After alleviating the back pressure thru lines, timing plate, etc...I started taking pieces off one at a time and narrowed it down to the check valve (I know, I know, THAT'S where you told me to start). I did start with the checkvalve, but as I could see through it, I ascertained that it was a screen in the bottom and not a GLASS BALL!! Copious amounts of air, digging crud, and solvent...it finally blew some stuff out and it runs good again.

Thanks again. I reckon I'll have to start wearing my cheaters out to the shop too instead of just using them to do my bills because seeing that it was a glass ball check would have saved me hours.

On the bright side, btween y'all's advise and some good downloads of breakdowns and ytube videos, I have a whole better understanding as I had changed injection pumps, but never worked on one.

Many many thanks to Gearclash and TxJim and the other suggestions as well.

Mark


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Mark

You're welcome

Jim


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Glad you got it beat. It would have helped you a lot had Jim or I mentioned that the check ball was clear.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

A little late to the party but i just sold my 1845 that i have owned for years. I tossed the primer pump and installed an electric 12v pump on mine. Had to send in the injection pump at 8000hrs for new seals and it was well worth it, run much smoother after. Sure liked that machine, just needed a larger one.


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

Keep the filters clean, maybe start running some power service through it to clean the system out some... and with ULSD you should be running some 2stroke oil with the fuel for lubricating the pump...


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

SCtrailrider said:


> and with ULSD you should be running some 2stroke oil with the fuel for lubricating the pump...


 Awww horse poop! The new (old as hell everywhere else in the world) ULSD is not and will not hurt any metal parts!infact its cleaner and lubes better than the old dirty crap! Only thing it will do is ruin old rubber seals and plastics that were used before the advent of nylon in the plastic components used in pumps and injectors. 
The US has the poorest quality diesel out there! 
Just ask any of the diesel racing guys like Audi's R8 sports car racing or a diesel engineer from GM! This is why the colorado diesel took so long to be released.. they had ISSUES making rated power and meeting the emission standards with the fuel that we use.
If you are not running antique diesels you will be just fine with the ULSD .


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

skyrydr2 said:


> The new (old as hell everywhere else in the world) ULSD is not and will not hurt any metal parts!infact its cleaner and lubes better than the old dirty crap!


I don't know about your lube statement.....ULSD has rusted the heck out of the underside of my fuel caps.

Regards, Mike


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

It will becaise there is less paraffin in it (this is what carried the sulfur) 
Lubricants can and some are water soluble. The newer stuff because it is so refined can absorb water and that will ruin your parts not the fuel. Keep it out and you will have a happy diesel.
Running extra oil in your fuel will lower the cetane value and just gunk up everything when it mixes and carries off the heavier particulates the clean fuel left behind clogging filters faster.
Just run fuel conditioner like Diesel 911 stuff and you should be fine.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I do run conditioner and have for years.

Regards, Mike


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I only use fuel conditioner if I have a diesel problem which I rarely have except I for some trash in my Ford tank blocking flow. My 3 tractors seem to not have any real problems using ULSD. My Ford 6700 has rotary IP that has many hrs of use on it. I thought ULSD had lubricity added by fuel supplier.


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

I use a little Lucas desil treatment.
I like it.


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

Everyone has a opinion, my DB2 pumps have shown signs of wear from ULSD, proven through the manufactures, that's why they now come with ceramic parts in them, but I couldn't care less if anyone else uses extra lube or not, was just a suggestion .....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I use some kinda snake oil....don't know the name off-hand. Suppose to do all kinds of good things....idk


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