# GM Going Electric?



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

With 20 electric vehicles in the line by 2023.....From NBC Business news.

Regards, Mike

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/gm-going-all-electric-will-ditch-gas-diesel-powered-cars-n806806


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

For decades, the Chevrolet Corvette was the fastest accelerating production vehicle in the world but it no longer has that distinction. Now it's the Tesla, which can go from 0 to 60 MPH in about half the time it takes a Corvette. Makes sense as electric motors develop full torque instantly whereas internal combustion engines have to rev up several thousand RPM to get into their torque band.

Does anyone make an electric dragster? It would beat a traditional top-fueled dragster every time. For such a short run time, it wouldn't need a lot of battery and hence not much weight. It's a no-brainer.

I'm still trying to understand why plug-in electric vehicles are being promoted. From an emissions standpoint, they are the dirtiest vehicles on the road. Their energy source ultimately comes from the power grid so depending on where you live, these cars are either coal burners, natural gas burners or nuclear powered. Totally crazy.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> For decades, the Chevrolet Corvette was the fastest accelerating production vehicle in the world but it no longer has that distinction. Now it's the Tesla, which can go from 0 to 60 MPH in about half the time it takes a Corvette. Makes sense as electric motors develop full torque instantly whereas internal combustion engines have to rev up several thousand RPM to get into their torque band.
> 
> Does anyone make an electric dragster? It would beat a traditional top-fueled dragster every time. For such a short run time, it wouldn't need a lot of battery and hence not much weight. It's a no-brainer.
> 
> I'm still trying to understand why plug-in electric vehicles are being promoted. From an emissions standpoint, they are the dirtiest vehicles on the road. Their energy source ultimately comes from the power grid so depending on where you live, these cars are either coal burners, natural gas burners or nuclear powered. Totally crazy.


Yes, but these greenies don't look at it that way. I guess they are just too dumb to figure out that they are swapping one polluter for one that is even dirtier. Of course we are supposed to be using all renewable energy. I don't think they can put enough of those eyesore wind generators up to replace all of the coal fired power plants.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> For decades, the Chevrolet Corvette was the fastest accelerating production vehicle in the world but it no longer has that distinction. Now it's the Tesla, which can go from 0 to 60 MPH in about half the time it takes a Corvette. Makes sense as electric motors develop full torque instantly whereas internal combustion engines have to rev up several thousand RPM to get into their torque band.
> 
> Does anyone make an electric dragster? It would beat a traditional top-fueled dragster every time. For such a short run time, it wouldn't need a lot of battery and hence not much weight. It's a no-brainer.
> 
> I'm still trying to understand why plug-in electric vehicles are being promoted. From an emissions standpoint, they are the dirtiest vehicles on the road. Their energy source ultimately comes from the power grid so depending on where you live, these cars are either coal burners, natural gas burners or nuclear powered. Totally crazy.


Yeah, EXACTLY...

And, what I don't hear ANYBODY talking about is the impact on the power grid... sure it's easy to talk about "plug in electric vehicles" but the reality is, the power grid is already swamped and being strained to the max anyway, as it is, WITHOUT a sh!t-ton of electric vehicles being added onto the demand... and they've already said that it's going to take years, more like DECADES to really upgrade and sort out the grid problems AS THEY EXIST RIGHT NOW!

Now imagine that these greenie simpletons get their wish-- a shiny new electric plug-in car sitting in most every garage, with its cord dutifully plugged into the nearest socket... and of course most of them also plugged in once the commuter gets to his job (in the middle of the day in the highest demand part of the day). Physics is physics and the laws of nature can't be broken-- if it takes "X" amount of energy to propel a vehicle and its occupant(s) from point A to point B, it will take the same amount of energy to propel the same weight vehicle at the same speed from the same point to the same point, regardless of energy source (of course correcting for efficiency of conversion, thermal/friction/resistance losses, etc.). IOW, putting it simply, so now instead of say 8 piston-powered cars on the block burning gasoline to get their owners to/from work every day, now you have 8 electric cars on the block DRAWING THE SAME AMOUNT OF WATTAGE THAT WAS BEING PRODUCED BY BURNING GASOLINE TO PROPEL THE PISTON-POWERED CARS being drawn FROM THE OVERSTRESSED GRID every night...

SO, you save burning maybe 40 gallons of gasoline in those 8 cars every day all total, but you're now drawing that same basic amount of energy from the OVERSTRESSED GRID to charge the batteries to do the same amount of work the next day... Now figure that across an entire city, state, or country... WHERE is all that extra generating capacity going to come from?? I'm not even getting into the effects of losses due to energy transformation-- IOW, every time energy changes form, SOME is ALWAYS lost (inefficiency) due to a variety of means, the simplest being thermal losses (internal combustion conversion of burning fuel expansion of gases converting to mechanical reciprocating motion in an engine, being converted to rotary motion via crankshaft and then stepped up/down in speed/torque via geared transmissions to drive wheels, BUT ALSO thermal losses from burning fuel used to drive turbines, or boil working fluids to drive turbines to spin electric generators to produce power, which is then stepped up/down via transformers (which suffer thermal and magnetic losses) to transmit power via lines (leading to line losses) to charge batteries (which suffer losses as well) to turn electric motors/gear reduction at the drive wheels... )

NO process is 100% efficient, BUT the more distance/steps you put between the point where the energy is produced (burned in most cases), and where it is ultimately used, increases inefficiency of the overall system and therefore losses. These losses add up. The extra demands on the already ailing infrastructure add up. Nobody is really figuring the cost, either, that I can see...

But they feel all warm and fuzzy about "saving the planet"...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Then there's the whole "battery issue"...

This is the killer with the "electric ag tractor" that Deere just demo'd in Europe that has everyone feeling all "warm and fuzzy"...

It takes a LOT of power and processing of raw materials to make those high-dollar limited-life batteries that all these greenie elecricmobiles will require... I was reading an article saying that Peru may already be shaping up to be "the new Middle East" due to the high concentrations of lithium in the Atacama Desert. The other big winner is China. China is already an ecological disaster. A huge increase in lithium polymer battery demand will create more problems in different areas and make existing problems worse on that score. Sure some pollution will be reduced in the short term, but other forms of pollution will take its place (producing massive amounts of raw materials to produce massive amounts of lipoly batteries.) It's just swapping the Devil for Beelzebub...

Then there's the whole "battery disposal" issue... most of these high energy density batteries that are being proposed for these electric vehicles have VERY limited lifetimes and use exotic and quite nasty chemistry in them that will be difficult to handle and dispose of properly when their useful life is over... The Deere electric tractor they were touting awhile back (which was featured in some articles linked to here on Hay Talk) mentioned, IIRC from memory, that the batteries had a life expectancy of about 1-3 years (depending on amount of use and type of use) and would cost about $30,000 EACH to replace (as well as each battery being several hundred pounds IIRC?) That's a heck of a cost of ownership to keep that electric tractor going! Plus who's going to handle all those huge dead batteries full of exotic chemicals??

Now imagine the problem compounded by the addition of hundreds of thousands or millions of electric vehicles to the mix. How many will get wrecked out in traffic, and how will that be handled?? An electric car gets wrecked right and the batteries bust open and spill their guts everywhere, and suddenly you have a mini-Superfund site to deal with... What's the cost of that going to be and how will that impact the environment?? How about when that electric car is 3 years old and the batteries croak, and the owners opt for a new car rather than spend almost as much to replace the batteries... and the things start piling up... even if they DO replace the batteries, now you've got MILLIONS of junk car batteries piling up... but not the 40-60 pound "Never-Starts" sittiing on pallets behind every Wally World in the USA, but rows of SEVERAL HUNDRED POUND batteries the size of hay bales sitting piled up and deteriorating...

This is the ugly side of electrics that even their proponents are loathe to talk about... but which is a DEFINITE issue nonetheless...

Later! OL J R


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

A little fired up, Luke?

Personally, I'm with you. I wonder if there's a "six degrees of separation" rule that applies to greenies? I.e., Because, the pollution is removed from immediately under their nose, they can't see it?

Ralph


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

GM probably jumped in with both feet because they realized the profit potential of dealing with the gov....I'm gonna bet with the new potus that they wouldn't have received the billions they got last time when the other idiot was in office giving away our money to organizations that were losing money.....they see Tesla getting millions even today, Solyndra is probably still gettin a check....
I'm thru with GM for well documented reasons.....there will never be another sitting in my driveway, gas/diesel or electric. 
They need to be working on fuel cell vehicles.....electrics are so yesterday


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

50 years from now if fuel cells have been in vehicles there suddenly will be a study that the fuel cells are destroying the environment.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

I just don't see electric cars working in states like Wyoming. The distances we travel are just too great; it is fine if in the city, but here we don't think much about driving two hours to go shopping for something we can't get at home. I also don't see them working for ranchers around here; what happens if you are out in the middle of the Red Desert checking cows and you run out of battery, It is not like you can pack some sort of backup to get you home. At least with combustion engines you can pack a 5 gallon Jerry Can. I just don't see electric cars as being even practical; in my opinion they are the pipe dream of some greenie that just does not understand how the world really works. All they know is what they have been told by some useless professor from some uppity University that has never spend a day in the real world.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Even fuel cells have to be "charged". That is, the hydrogen has to be produced from some source, usually water, using a process called electrolysis and that process uses energy from the grid so we're right back to using coal, nuclear, etc.

As mentioned above, if plug-in electric vehicles ever go mainstream, battery disposal will become a huge environmental problem.

Right now, the eco-friendliest vehicle you can drive is CNG (compressed natural gas). Fuel comes out of the ground and is used as is - no processing required like is done to crude oil to make gasoline, diesel, etc. CNG is not perfect, there are still emissions but it's the best option at this time.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> I just don't see electric cars working in states like Wyoming. The distances we travel are just too great; it is fine if in the city, but here we don't think much about driving two hours to go shopping for something we can't get at home. I also don't see them working for ranchers around here; what happens if you are out in the middle of the Red Desert checking cows and you run out of battery, It is not like you can pack some sort of backup to get you home. At least with combustion engines you can pack a 5 gallon Jerry Can. I just don't see electric cars as being even practical; in my opinion they are the pipe dream of some greenie that just does not understand how the world really works. All they know is what they have been told by some useless professor from some uppity University that has never spend a day in the real world.


Yeah, same in Texas...

I could see it in New Jersey or the East Coast or something, but out here in the West, I don't see it.

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> I just don't see electric cars working in states like Wyoming. The distances we travel are just too great; it is fine if in the city, but here we don't think much about driving two hours to go shopping for something we can't get at home. I also don't see them working for ranchers around here; what happens if you are out in the middle of the Red Desert checking cows and you run out of battery, It is not like you can pack some sort of backup to get you home. At least with combustion engines you can pack a 5 gallon Jerry Can. I just don't see electric cars as being even practical; in my opinion they are the pipe dream of some greenie that just does not understand how the world really works. All they know is what they have been told by some useless professor from some uppity University that has never spend a day in the real world.


Where they REALLY shine, and about all they are REALLY useful for (or a job where they're a better fit than an IC (internal combustion) engine) is for CITY TRAFFIC COMMUTING.

When people are stuck in city traffic, the IC engine powered car is burning fuel but achieving 0 MPG, while it's not moving. The battery powered electric (or hybrid when running on battery power) can basically sit and use (theoretically) zero power while not moving, and still have instant "get up and go" when the car in front of you moves up.

With regenerative braking, all-electric battery-powered commuter cars can even recapture a lot of the momentum used to accelerate between sit-go-sit periods in traffic jams... which is something IC powered cars cannot do... they burn fuel idling while sitting in traffic, and every time you hit the brakes, they turn the momentum of the vehicle into waste heat and dump it to the atmosphere... (which is what friction brakes do).

Bout the WORST place for a battery powered electric vehicle is long-haul over the road trips (those 2 hour trips into Casper, etc). Batteries simply don't have the power storage density to be able to do that well (ie very limited range and long recharge times). Plus, longevity isn't there because high numbers of charge/discharge cycles simply use the batteries up, and replacing them AIN'T CHEAP... at least hybrids or fuel cells have the advantage of carrying the fuel with them in a liquid or highly compressed gas state (in the case of fuel cells), thus have a much more reasonable range.

Hybrids (gas/electric or diesel/electric) are a decent idea, BUT have the disadvantages of both, in that you have to have an IC engine AND a generator AND battery packs AND drivetrain or electric wheel motors with reduction boxes, etc. Ton more moving parts.

At least the fuel cell idea has the benefit of generating the electricity onboard and sending it to the drive motors without the additional IC engine, generator, etc.

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> A little fired up, Luke?
> 
> Personally, I'm with you. I wonder if there's a "six degrees of separation" rule that applies to greenies? I.e., Because, the pollution is removed from immediately under their nose, they can't see it?
> 
> Ralph


You could say that...

It's just that these technologically simplistic arguments drive me nuts...

These greenies come trotting out with all these "good ideas" to save the planet that really don't hold up an ounce of truth when you look at the bigger picture... but it sounds "all warm and fuzzy" and so the technologically illiterate and ignorant but very vocal activist set latch onto it and start lobbying for it, and kneejerk nutcase politicians whose only purpose in life is getting reelected latch onto it and run with it, and we end up with a LOT OF STUPIDITY to deal with...

Everything in life is about trade-offs... there's no "magic bullet" solutions to problems. 100 years ago IC engine powered vehicles were considered a godsend because projections then said that at the rate the cities were growing (particularly New York) the cities would be buried under 8 feet of horse manure within a couple decades... (fortunately this only happened in Washington DC... LOL)

Now it's all the global warming and junk science and jingoistic 'save the planet' nonsense that has people grabbing onto 'non-solutions' as a one-size-fits-all approach, which NEVER works... there IS NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL.

Battery powered electrics have their place. Commuter vehicles from the burbs to the inner cities, dealing with urban traffic jams, they're perfect for that. I think it's ridiculous that you have suburbanite soccer moms driving frigging HUMMERS and Escalades to their little two-bit secretarial or real estate jobs, and other nonsense like that.

On the other hand, out in the boonies, battery powered vehicles would be practically useless-- a 2 hour drive to the nearest city to get stuff not available locally would just be a total PITA with an all-electric vehicle. Towing heavy loads or doing heavy work is just too taxing on the batteries for an all-electric to make sense.

Use the right tool for the right job.

It's like the 'alternative fuel' thing that was such a hoo-hah a few years ago (and crops up from time to time). The greenies were touting ethanol and "renewable fuels" as the only hope for the future... yet if you study it you realize it takes 3 gallons of oil to make 1 gallon of biofuels... yet the greenies scream we should convert to 100% biofuel... which means we'd have to import and produce THREE TIMES the amount of oil we do now in order to produce all that biofuel... (nevermind where all those acres are going to come from...)

Just really stupid stuff gets on my nerves...

Later! OL J R


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