# New to forum new to Alfalfa Timothy hay.



## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

I am not new to farming, but have never grown and baled Alfalfa. I have grown a variety of 
crops over the years with good success. My farm is in Ohio and I have a couple friends with riding
stables begging me to grow hay for their horses. I am considering trying to grow and bale 
Alfalfa Timothy mix for them. I have a 25 acre field that is very well drained bottom land with ph
of 6.9 and should do well for a site. At most, I don't think I would ever plant more than 50 total 
acres. I have a new JD 6330 and a new JD 5055E that I will use. I have some other tractors, 
but these two give you an idea of what I have. I also have all the equipment needed to prepare 
the ground and plant with. I have planted many acres of clover and Timothy for cattle hay ( I let a
neighbor bale it for his cattle). I have even planted some alfalfa for him with good success. HOWEVER, 
I don't have any hay equipment or experience. I want to minimize physical labor. I am looking at buying 
a small inline baler, discbine conditioner, rake, Tedder, Kuhn accumulator and grapple. Please 
start giving me advise please. I need a lot haha.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Welcome to haytalk! To me, that sounds like a lot of capital investment for 25 acres. Could you set a price for your hay in advance so that you know (or have a good idea) that that amount of investment would pencil out on that small of an acreage?


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Welcome to haytalk. 
You seem to be on the right track as far as equipment is concerned. I have to say that the initial investment is unlikely to provide a return on 25 acres, or even 50, for quite some time.
There is only one way to eat an elephant and that is one bite at a time. I hope that you can find other ground or shares or custom work to offset the capital expenditure.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> Welcome to haytalk! To me, that sounds like a lot of capital investment for 25 acres. Could you set a price for your hay in advance so that you know (or have a good idea) that that amount of investment would pencil out on that small of an acreage?


Yes. They are going to have to pay 7.50 a bale or better for what they want.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Based on numbers from friends who grow in the area, it seems as though 225 bales per acre per year is a very reasonable estimate of yield.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Is $7.50 the going rate in you area or is it above or below market?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

It looks like you are on the right path and it's good that you appear to have some farming experience but making quality hay will have a rather steep learning curve. I would also try to see if you have a market for lower quality hay as well because when first starting out it may take a time or two to get everything figured out and you will always have the weather to contend with. As far as equipment models that all depends on how much you want to spend. For a hay rake I would highly recommend a rotary rake.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

The field you have chosen seems a good choice. You are spot on on the equipment, though 25-50 acres won't justify new or even slightly used. We sell everything ton, I don't really know going per bale price, but I would guess you are high for the first cutting. The big concern to me is selling hay to friends. Seems like a good way to test relationships and something I try to avoid.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> Is $7.50 the going rate in you area or is it above or below market?


Honestly I do not know. We are into show horses ( unfortunately ), and are very good friends with barn owners where horses are located. I know that is what the barns pay for hay. Whether that is market I am not sure, but I suspect it is. Both owners are thrifty so I doubt they pay a premium.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

You have the land and the equipment to plant it. Do you have somebody that can come in and cut and bale it for you? Buying all that equipment would be a major investment for that few acres. If it works out this year you could ease into it by buying a few pieces a year. If it doesn't work out would you continue to make hay?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

It always looks good on paper.You need to factor in rain damaged hay.Perhaps some for bad accounts.

And with the price of corn down there will be others looking at getting rich doing hay.lol.That will just drive the price down.Always does.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Seems like you are on the right track with the list of equipment, but like others have said, buying it all at once is a big investment. In my area, the tedder would be good addition to the lineup, but not a necessity. Your climate or the fact that you are doing alfalfa might change this, though. Is there any chance you could have the guy who was baling the hay for cattle help you out? Even just talking to him about the local conditions of hay making could be a big help. As far as equipment, if you are a decent mechanic, you can probable pick up some used stuff at auctions and such and fix it up. The trick there is knowing what to look for on used equipment. You're cattle buddy might be a help there too (and the rest of us on here will help too  ).

When I tried a little alfalfa/timothy mix up in my area, I found it took about a day longer to dry than just timothy hay. It might be about the same as the clover that you mentioned, but it's been so long since I have grown any clover that I can't remember for sure.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Will you have to store the hay and deliver when needed to get the $7.50?

I wonder if the price the friends are paying now includes trucking from another area, which would drive the cost up some.

When we sold Bermuda horse hay the friends who bought from us either liked our hay or wanted a "friends" discount.

If I was looking to get a $7.50 price I would firm that up with the barns first. Could be they are just wanting a steady supply of good hay. Being frugal, they could be looking for a price break.

I know you are a horse owner yourself. You may see a different side of your friends if you begin selling them hay. When someone pays a premium price for hay it opens the door of critique.

Not picking on horse owners. I am one myself and also showed back in the day.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

IH 1586 said:


> You have the land and the equipment to plant it. Do you have somebody that can come in and cut and bale it for you? Buying all that equipment would be a major investment for that few acres. If it works out this year you could ease into it by buying a few pieces a year. If it doesn't work out would you continue to make hay?


I have about 1,000 acres, but could really only grow good hay on 100. I do have a guy that works for me at the farm. I might be able to find someone to bale and cut, but I hate to be tied to waiting on someone to do anything. If it does not work out, I would have an equipment sale and move on to the next project (BUT I PREFER TO NOT JUMP INOT SOMETHING THAT I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN WOULD NOT WORK OUT HA HA).


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

swmnhay said:


> It always looks good on paper.You need to factor in rain damaged hay.Perhaps some for bad accounts.And with the price of corn down there will be others looking at getting rich doing hay.lol.That will just drive the price down.Always does.


Those are all very very valid points. I am not worried about bad accounts in that I would only sale to two barns and I pay them more per year than they would buy in hay. If they don't pay me, I will not pay them ha ha. But, I am blessed in that will not be a problem. Now, someone mentioned a valid point about selling hay to friends. I do not want to make bad hay and if I did I would not ask them to buy it.

Not very many people in our area want to deal with small bales. It is all round bale cattle hay.

It does look better on paper, because at the price they pay and 225 bales per acre that is $42,187. I do not need trailers or a way to haul. I have couple semi tractors and can haul all of it to the barns about 1.5 hours away in one trip each time I cut. I would have to buy rake, tedder, mower conditioner, accumulator and grapple, and baler. I do not THINK I would have to buy anything else.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Josh in WNY said:


> Seems like you are on the right track with the list of equipment, but like others have said, buying it all at once is a big investment. In my area, the tedder would be good addition to the lineup, but not a necessity. Your climate or the fact that you are doing alfalfa might change this, though. Is there any chance you could have the guy who was baling the hay for cattle help you out? Even just talking to him about the local conditions of hay making could be a big help. As far as equipment, if you are a decent mechanic, you can probable pick up some used stuff at auctions and such and fix it up. The trick there is knowing what to look for on used equipment. You're cattle buddy might be a help there too (and the rest of us on here will help too  ).
> 
> When I tried a little alfalfa/timothy mix up in my area, I found it took about a day longer to dry than just timothy hay. It might be about the same as the clover that you mentioned, but it's been so long since I have grown any clover that I can't remember for sure.


Yes, my neighbor is in his early 70s and has baled hay his entire life. He and I are best friends, like a father to me. He would help me get up the learning curve but to be honest he thinks I am crazy because he does not like to deal with alfalfa. But he is AN OLD TIME GUY who is tighter than the bark on a hickory tree. He does not like to fertilize and you can't grow alfalfa without feeding it. I do know that much.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Tim/South said:


> Will you have to store the hay and deliver when needed to get the $7.50?
> I wonder if the price the friends are paying now includes trucking from another area, which would drive the cost up some.
> When we sold Bermuda horse hay the friends who bought from us either liked our hay or wanted a "friends" discount.
> If I was looking to get a $7.50 price I would firm that up with the barns first. Could be they are just wanting a steady supply of good hay. Being frugal, they could be looking for a price break.
> ...


My 10 year old daughter is really the horse person and the one who shows, but we are into it big time. My fault, I bought the first pony! The buyers are really only wanting a steady supply of good quality hay. They are thrifty, but they are dealing with horses that are all over six figures and they need good hay first more than a discount. I would say the 7.50 is a very firm price and they would be glad to have it.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

In general, my biggest concern is not being able to make good hay. We are in southeastern Ohio and there is high humidity and some summers a fair amount of rain. I am also a fairly busy person and am worried I will not have enough time to deal with hay. I do have a flexible schedule in that I own my own businesses, but I do not want this to take more time than it is worth.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

The reason I like smaller acreage is that I do not have to store the hay. I can deliver it right out of the field and I know I have actually more buyers than I could supply. I could supply 100 percent of what two barns needs, but others are wanting hay too. I just did not plan on selling to anyone else. We have a pretty nice excavating business that works in the oil and gas industry. We run 6 or 7 crews and could be a lot larger, but 6 or 7 crews and 8 dozers and 8 excavators are a lot easier to deal with than 50 crews and 100 pieces of equipment.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

When you deliver the hay with the semi-trailer, will it be enclosed in a van trailer, tarped on a flatbed...? I do know that you don't want to leave freshly baled hay in a trailer very long, it needs to be able to breath in order to finish curing out. If it is left in the trailer, the hay may end up being dusty or moldy.

Another thing to consider is if you want to use a preservative on the hay. Some of the up sides are you can bale hay at a little higher moisture content which helps with leaf retention as well as dodging the weather. The down sides include added cost both in equipment and the preservative itself as well as your customers possibly not wanting their hay treated with chemicals. I would recommend that you search through some of the posts on here and familiarize yourself with the preservatives used on hay and then check with the folks at the stables and feel them out as to their thoughts on preservatives. They may be OK with it, not know anything about it or somewhere in between.

One other thing about the equipment, why are you leaning towards getting an inline baler? I do think they are a nice baler and will do well for you, but in my area they are pretty rare. You might have better luck finding a "conventional" side drawn baler cheaper than an inline... and you could always upgrade to an inline baler at a later time.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If you already have the trucks and trailers, have you considered finding someone else who's growing it on a profitable scale and just brokering it?


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Josh in WNY said:


> When you deliver the hay with the semi-trailer, will it be enclosed in a van trailer, tarped on a flatbed...? I do know that you don't want to leave freshly baled hay in a trailer very long, it needs to be able to breath in order to finish curing out. If it is left in the trailer, the hay may end up being dusty or moldy.
> 
> Another thing to consider is if you want to use a preservative on the hay. Some of the up sides are you can bale hay at a little higher moisture content which helps with leaf retention as well as dodging the weather. The down sides include added cost both in equipment and the preservative itself as well as your customers possibly not wanting their hay treated with chemicals. I would recommend that you search through some of the posts on here and familiarize yourself with the preservatives used on hay and then check with the folks at the stables and feel them out as to their thoughts on preservatives. They may be OK with it, not know anything about it or somewhere in between.
> 
> One other thing about the equipment, why are you leaning towards getting an inline baler? I do think they are a nice baler and will do well for you, but in my area they are pretty rare. You might have better luck finding a "conventional" side drawn baler cheaper than an inline... and you could always upgrade to an inline baler at a later time.


You folks on this forum are good. Much better than some of the others I follow. I would deliver it on a flat open trailer, not an enclosed trailer. I know it needs to cure some, but that is going to be their issue. I am not going to store hay and then deliver it. That is too much effort on my part.

I was leaning towards an inline simply because I have a friend that bales 200 acres a year and loves his and says he would get one. But, I am open to more conventional balers.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I would like to make two suggestions, if you are going to bale Timothy and Alfalfa I suggest you add a preservative system to your list...as both TImothy and Alfalfa are both somewhat harder to dry down than other grasses...like Orchard. And, stick with the inline if you are going to use a accumulator....they work better than sidepulls about not dealing with accumulated grabs being in the way while baling.....and they are just really good balers.

Regards, Mike


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

Do the barns currently feed all cuttings of hay? I assume you will get three cuttings. I just wondered if they will take any cutting or just a specific cutting like 2nd. I rarely have a customer that feeds different cuttings. Everyone wants a specific cutting.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

OhioHay said:


> Do the barns currently feed all cuttings of hay? I assume you will get three cuttings. I just wondered if they will take any cutting or just a specific cutting like 2nd. I rarely have a customer that feeds different cuttings. Everyone wants a specific cutting.


Yes, the feed all cuttings. They are pretty good at managing dietary needs with supplements and grain when a cutting perhaps lacks the nutritional needs.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

SGS, I believe you are on solid ground. Many come here looking to make hay through rose colored glasses.

You have two huge advantages that stand out.

1) You want to make quality hay.

2) You are already successful in business and it will not break the bank if the alfalfa does not work out.

As far as buying the first pony, I can think of a lot worse directions to get a child started toward.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Today they say they will pay $7.50 per bale. If the price plummets next year and they can buy it for $5 elsewhere, will they stick with you? Also, if the price surges and goes to $10, will you be willing to sell to them for $7.50? My advise is to offer them the going market price. In this way there will be no remorse. Markets have worked for over 5000 years. Markets establish value, and this can't be done any other way without bad feelings. My take on it...


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

FarmerCline said:


> It looks like you are on the right path and it's good that you appear to have some farming experience but making quality hay will have a rather steep learning curve. I would also try to see if you have a market for lower quality hay as well because when first starting out it may take a time or two to get everything figured out and you will always have the weather to contend with. As far as equipment models that all depends on how much you want to spend. For a hay rake I would highly recommend a rotary rake.


A few questions: 1. Why do you recommend a rotary rake over a wheel rake? 
2. If I do not go with an in line baler, what are a few true and time tested conventional baler models?


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

How many cuttings per season are you planning? An alfalfa/meadow brome mix would be my 1st choice for multiple cuttings if you are selling into the horse market. I can't seem to get enough regrowth with timothy to make a good 2nd cut alfalfa/timothy ratio. Also timothy thrives on wet soils and you mentioned your's are well drained. My horse hay customers prefer the a/b mix over a/t and i realize at least a ton per acre in increased yields. Is timothy the standard in your area?


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

Going to toss my two cents in . And unlike everyone else SGS I'm going to suggest you just leave it and let them buy it some where else .

Sounds like you have you have all the resources and money to do it , but do you have the time and the want to do it ? To me 225 bales per acre per year sounds high of course they could be weighing like 40 pounds or something .

The other thing going straight from the field to their barns sounds great with those open trucks . But can they take it as soon as you have it baled ? Have to wait till the next day? Rain ? Got a place to pull it inside ? Think you said barns are 1.5 hours away , Have to have no rain or have tarps for that trip .

Just a couple thing to think about on the negative side of things

We made just a little less then ten thousand bales this year some custom , anyway very seldom does a plan go as you want .

( Happy to say we are sold out too ! )


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

carcajou said:


> How many cuttings per season are you planning? An alfalfa/meadow brome mix would be my 1st choice for multiple cuttings if you are selling into the horse market. I can't seem to get enough regrowth with timothy to make a good 2nd cut alfalfa/timothy ratio. Also timothy thrives on wet soils and you mentioned your's are well drained. My horse hay customers prefer the a/b mix over a/t and i realize at least a ton per acre in increased yields. Is timothy the standard in your area?


It is the standard for sure, but Timothy can be weak after the first cutting here as well.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Chessiedog said:


> Going to toss my two cents in . And unlike everyone else SGS I'm going to suggest you just leave it and let them buy it some where else .
> 
> Sounds like you have you have all the resources and money to do it , but do you have the time and the want to do it ? To me 225 bales per acre per year sounds high of course they could be weighing like 40 pounds or something .
> 
> ...


Thanks. Every other day I reach the same conclusion as you. My weakness is that I REALLY like to 
farm and grow crops. It is a lot of hard work, but I love it. I guess that is much better than being addicted to much worse things. I have a few more friends including an 87 year old that for the last 65 years grew alfalfa and Timothy in a 50 acre field not far from me. I visited him last weekend to check 
on his yields and he was very comfortable with 225 bales per acre per year. But I hear what you are saying. If I could buy some smaller hay equipment and pay for the equipment and then net 50 percent 
not counting depreciation on tractors I would love to do it. But I HAVE TOLD MANY PEOPLE FARMING CAN BE REALLY ENJOYABLE AS LONG AS EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT EVERY DAY. The problem everything never goes right any day. Something breaks, the weather goes sour, something happens.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

You are light years ahead of most who post here for input.

The only thing that I can add is that I wouldn't trade my used inline for any side draw baler on the market, new or used.

Good luck.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

SGS said:


> A few questions: 1. Why do you recommend a rotary rake over a wheel rake?
> 2. If I do not go with an in line baler, what are a few true and time tested conventional baler models?


 A rotary rake has very little contact with the ground unlike a wheel rake so you less chance of dirt, rocks, and dead thatch getting raking into the windrow with the rotary. For square baling you cannot beat the windrow a rotary rake makes.....it makes a nice fluffy windrow with absolutely no roping or bunching of the hay. A rotary rake gently sweeps the hay into a windrow which is a big plus in alfalfa to minimize leaf loss.

As far as inline vs side pull baler either one should be fine.....it's just a matter of personal preference. In a side pull baler I would stick with either NH or JD. What models depends on how much you are looking to spend. NH 575 is a very good baler and is a high capacity model.....a 565 is the lower capacity baler. I'm not as familiar with JD balers so someone else will have to comment on those.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

With regards to wheel vs a rotary or rollabar rake, my understanding is that a wheel rake will pick up more trash from the field. Not a bad thing, but visually unappealing to many horse customers.

In my window shopping world, I am split between what the next baler would be. I really like the shape output and consistency I read about on the inline balers -and there are some great videos on youtube that show this. Again, if it's a hay customer, visual is important IMHO. OTOH, I don't have deep pockets and the day job is what puts potatoes on my family's plate. Making hay for me is an exercise to expose my boys to the experience, make them a little college money and pay some taxes on the place. Hay making for us is truly optional. For me personally, I just like working outdoors and had some great memories of making hay in my younger days. Also, whatever equipment we buy/use, not only does it need to last for years, we need to be able to work on it ourselves. Many times DYI requires internet help as most dealers I've dealt with enjoy the sale, but are a pain when service or technical advice is needed - so I rely on great folks on forums like this.

So which baler? For the visual and the horse crowd, I'm thinking the easy button for consistent bale shape is the inline baler. For the long term support via internet, I really like the John Deere 328 or 338 balers. Long standing baler design, very similar to JD's older balers, lots of folks who can identify/have experience with this baler - so long term help, shouldn't be a problem. Also, from personal experience, I KNOW the JD baler design can and will spit out a very nice bale..However, for the kid in me, I just like looking over my shoulder, seeing that pick-up out to the side eating hay - LOL!

Good luck with your hay making!

Bill


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

On rakes, I believe the rotary rake is easier on alfalfa. It is PTO driven and you can slow the RPM's down and still make a nice windrow and not beat the hay up in doing so. Less leaf shatter is important with alfalfa. Slow the rake's RPM's down and gear up the ground speed. They will more gently form a windrow.

On grass hay a wheel rake may be as good or better.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

FarmerCline said:


> I'm not as familiar with JD balers so someone else will have to comment on those.


Up until last spring, I ran a JD 336. Dropped that back to be a backup baler when I picked up a JD 348 at an auction. The JD baler design probably hasn't changed too much for the last 40 years or so, just minor design tweeks. I baled 30+ acres a year with the 336 for well over 10 years and it did fine. The 348 just has larger capacity and is newer. The only real downside that I have on the 336 is the pickup is somewhat narrow and if the tires on the baling tractor are set wide, it can be a pain getting the windrow into the baler (our 336 has the short hitch on it, longer hitch versions may not be so bad).

Just so you know what you are looking at with the JD baler models, unless you go real far back, the model numbers all start with "3", the second number is either a 2, 3 or 4 and indicates the capacity of the baler (2 is the low end "economy' baler and 4 is the high end "commercial" baler). The last number is either a 6, 7 or 8 and indicates the model version where the 6 version were the first ones produced back in the 1970s or so. The 6's were then replaced by the 7's, which were in turn replaced by the 8's. My advise is, if you are looking at an older baler, go less by when it was made and more by how it was kept/maintained. An older baler that was well maintained may be in much better shape than a newer one that was abused. To give you an idea of price in my area, a used 336 in decent shape could be picked up for $2000 to $3000. I picked up my 348 for $5500, but that was a little on the lower end of the price scale. I've seen nice 348s go for over $10,000.

There are some good Youtube videos that go through what to look for on older JD balers (some of the things are applicable to other brands as well). Here is one of the links:






I haven't worked with New Holland balers too much, but I do think they will do just as well as JD's or inlines. For any baler to work well, it's all in how well they are adjusted and operated. One thing on the older NH balers is that they had a cross feeding mechanism that moved the hay into the bale chambers that could be hard to get adjusted to make a good bale, the newer models have a rotary feeding system with a feeder fork similar to the JD balers that helped with this.

Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned about the inline balers is that the clearance over the windrow can be a problem. It is somewhat similar to running a round baler. You can either make a smaller windrow or put some type of a tarp hanging under the tractor to keep the hay from catching on things. If your tractors have good clearance, it might not even be an issue, but lower slung utility tractors can be a pain.


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## joeberg (Jun 8, 2011)

SGS, you do know that the best time to make hay is also the best time to go to the lake?

Because you are asking all of the right questions, you should take more of a management approach to this project. This is the best way to minimize your labor.

This is what I would do: Test fields, prep them, plant them and get ready for the first crop. Find someone to contract to cut, rake & bail. Work out the details on getting them to the barns. Dealing with 5000 bails for the first time, will be a ton of stress.

The tribal knowledge you will learn the first year will be priceless.

From what I see in your eyes, and hear from your posts you are the kind of guy that does stuff. Start to finished. Doesn't matter what it takes, it get finished. I'm the kind of guy that doesn't take no for an answer, either. It's not the idea, it's the follow-through. blah, blah, blah........

I've done this. Bought a ranch. Bought cows, borrowed equipment, bought equipment, bought equipment for the 2nd time. Just wait for the first time you 'plug' the bailer. You will know exactly what I'm talking about.

baby steps, and enjoy the journey.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

joeberg said:


> SGS, you do know that the best time to make hay is also the best time to go to the lake?
> 
> Because you are asking all of the right questions, you should take more of a management approach to this project. This is the best way to minimize your labor.
> 
> ...


I think that is a pretty good idea.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

SGS, good questions. For starting in small squares, I'd go with a decent used John Deere 328, 338, 348 or one of those hesston inline balers. They're not the highest capacity but they do a nice job. Maybe look for a single rotor Krone, Miller Pro, Kuhn, etc. rotary rake that hasn't been abused. Just have to start out small first and work your way from there. Hell we started with a JD 24T baler and old NH 56 rolabar rake!


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

I realize that price will vary per region, but just out of curiosity what are some average costs to have someone cut, rake and bale small square bales should I decide to plant, fertilize, spray, pick up the bales and deliver the bales?


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

I'd say to do those three processes...it'd be around $1.50-$2.00/bale depending how much tonnage was taken off the field.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

PaCustomBaler said:


> I'd say to do those three processes...it'd be around $1.50-$2.00/bale depending how much tonnage was taken off the field.


What if you only raked (tedded if necessary) and baled. I may do a hybrid of the suggestion above by buying a mower conditioner. I know I can grow it and cut it. From that point on is a bit of a learning curve ha ha.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

You would be in the $1.50 range. Here I charge $1.00 to just bale and $2.00 to do it all


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

First year Making hay on your own. You will sell maybe 20% for what you thought. 50% for half price and the rest you wont beable yo give away. If you do better than this than you are better than most rookies. Dont get in a hurry to bale the hay just cause it seems dry enough.

Your getting figured about the marketing. That is just as important as making good hay. No use putting up any hay if you dont have a use for it.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

...


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

SGS said:


> What if you only raked (tedded if necessary) and baled. I may do a hybrid of the suggestion above by buying a mower conditioner. I know I can grow it and cut it. From that point on is a bit of a learning curve ha ha.


If you're concerned with making top quality hay while you learn, I can see the logic in this.

If the goal is to lessen the initial investment, I'd do the opposite. Generally, it should be easier to find someone to do the mowing in a timely manner than the baling. Mowing has a larger window for success in the final product and it gets done FAST with discbines. That should make it easier to schedule someone to cut it for you. On the other hand, if you cut it yourself and expect someone to bale it for you (which is slower and so much more dependent on conditions and time of day) your risk grows greatly. If your mower guy shows up three hours late to mow 25 acres, you might not even notice. If your baler guys shows up three hours late, you could have brittle hay at best and storm drenched hay at worst.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

I am far more worried about making good hay than the initial investment. But, 83150 HiTech makes a very good point with regad to timing. I can certainly appreciate that it is less troublesome if the mower shows up late as opposed to the rake or baler!

If the hay is good my buyers will be very happy to have it at the price I listed above. Whether 9 out of 10 start growing Alfalfa and drive the price down, well I can't control that but such has not been the case since 2000. I have friend who is a deer farmer and he all but begs for alfalfa hay at times.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Those deer farmers love alfalfa...sold a load yesterday to one. But even the initial investment won't be terribile if you just have a discbine and baler invested, correct? What do you think guys...10k-15k for a decent used baler and a 9'-10' side pull discbine? If you had both of these, obviously then you don't have to worry about someone being late to bale your hay.


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## joeberg (Jun 8, 2011)

PaCustomBaler, SGS wants small squares. You can get a decent small square baler for 3.5k to 5.5k.

Sbs, plan B. You have a friend that is a deer farm. That's perfect. Plan C. Buy yourself a couple of Steers. There is nothing better then eating fresh hamburgers from the steer you raised from the bad hay your horses friends didn't want!

Joe


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

joeberg said:


> PaCustomBaler, SGS wants small squares. You can get a decent small square baler for 3.5k to 5.5k.
> 
> Sbs, plan B. You have a friend that is a deer farm. That's perfect. Plan C. Buy yourself a couple of Steers. There is nothing better then eating fresh hamburgers from the steer you raised from the bad hay your horses friends didn't want!
> 
> Joe


I'm saying baler AND discbine...not just baler.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

For mowing 25 acres, you could also get away with a sickle-style mower/conditioner rather than a disc mower conditioner. They are generally slower and have higher maintenance, but don't really want to think about how many acres I mowed with our old NH 488!

I would strongly prefer the disc mower, but they tend to be more expensive for ones in decent shape.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I agree with baling your own. It would be nice to have someone there to help make any adjustments the baler might need. I can remember trying to figure out a knotter problem and could not because I was sitting in the tractor seat. Then I learned you could trip the knotter manually. 

When I only owned a square baler I would hire my round baling done. The baler owner took care of his first and I was on the back burner. When it is hay cutting weather everyone is busy with their own, especially the baling part. Did not take me long to buy a round baler.

Time wise it takes me longer to cut the hay than any other process. I cut 9 feet at a time and rake 20 feet, thus basically baling 20 feet.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

I put down some really rough numbers on 22 acres today not sure why I picked 22. 22 acres produces $37,125 in revenue at 225 bales per acre and $7.50 per bale. Seed ($2,000), Fertilizer ($1,826), Lime ($1,650), fuel ($748), labor ($3,000), my delivery cost ($1,500) and cut, rake and bale at $2 per bale ($9,900).

What do you all think of this numbers? It leaves $16,501 as a net. I have some thoughts seeing those now after a few hours away from them but will leave them alone for now.

P. S. I bet the members here are not nearly as responsive may through August.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

The numbers look good.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Numbers don't look bad, good roundabout numbers. Will you be getting $7.50/bale for all your cuttings? That seems a little high to get for 1st cut, but I'm not sure who your clientele are.

May through August...I'll be off the radar from here.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Lets use my numbers for first time doing hay

sell 20% for what your asking - $7425

sell 50% for half asking price - $9281.25

The other 30% cant give away since it crap hay of some sort

Total revenue first year $16706.25

Your total expenses $20624

Total loss first year -3917.75

In reality your probably going to be somewhere between my doom and gloom numbers and your cloud 9 numbers. But the only time you might beable to produce all good hay and sell for a good price is during a dry year but than you yield will be a lot less.

Also consider that if this is your first time running hay equipment your going to do something you shouldn't and have a costly repair on your hands. If you make any money the first year ever doing hay than your better than most.

But don't worry. Every year you learn something and get better( or lucky)


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## joeberg (Jun 8, 2011)

SGS,

Did you get your soil tests back yet?

If you need to lime. People say that is take 6+ months for the soils PH to raise and become usable for the plants.

Also, depending on fertility of the soil, you could easily spend $1200 per cutting in fertilizer.

Joe


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## joeberg (Jun 8, 2011)

hog987 said:


> Lets use my numbers for first time doing hay
> 
> sell 20% for what your asking - $7425
> 
> ...


SGS,

Also, you hit a rock with your new discbine, that repair could be from $150 to $500 depending on how fast you are driving.

Joe


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

PaCustomBaler said:


> Numbers don't look bad, good roundabout numbers. Will you be getting $7.50/bale for all your cuttings? That seems a little high to get for 1st cut, but I'm not sure who your clientele are.
> 
> May through August...I'll be off the radar from here.


Yes the price is the same for each cutting.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

hog987 said:


> Lets use my numbers for first time doing hay
> sell 20% for what your asking - $7425
> sell 50% for half asking price - $9281.25
> The other 30% cant give away since it crap hay of some sort
> ...





hog987 said:


> Lets use my numbers for first time doing hay
> sell 20% for what your asking - $7425
> sell 50% for half asking price - $9281.25
> The other 30% cant give away since it crap hay of some sort
> ...


You missed some valuable information that may not be applicable in Alberta as compared to my personal situation. I pay my two hay customers about six times what they would spend on hay. They are not going to change the price on me and loose 185,000 worth of business a year. They are going to take all of the good hay I have at that price. The only variable is whether I can make good hay.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

joeberg said:


> SGS,
> 
> Did you get your soil tests back yet?
> 
> ...


Yes, I know that field well. The ph is actually 6.9. My lime number was really a fluff number for repairs on unknowns.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

SGS said:


> You missed some valuable information that may not be applicable in Alberta as compared to my personal situation. I pay my two hay customers about six times what they would spend on hay. They are not going to change the price on me and loose 185,000 worth of business a year. They are going to take all of the good hay I have at that price. The only variable is whether I can make good hay.


So the plan is to threaten them into paying your price?


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

SGS said:


> Yes the price is the same for each cutting.


WOW, maybe I should start charging that for all my A/O cuttings!


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

My point is that most new guys are not going to produce much good hay their first year in business. Do you have a market for the poor hay that you will produce? You may have a good price for your good hay. But even the expert haymakers will only make 50%-80% good hay on any given year depending on weather. You keep making the rookie mistake in your math. That's assuming all your hay is going to be good and that your going to sell it all for the top price.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

PaCustomBaler said:


> WOW, maybe I should start charging that for all my A/O cuttings!


We should be shipping PA hay to Ohio!!


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

8350HiTech said:


> We should be shipping PA hay to Ohio!!


That's no kidding, was trucking semi loads to northern Ohio a few winters ago when they were dry but I wasn't getting close to $7.50 even with delivery.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

SGS sorry I'm still hung up on the number of bales coming off this field . Maybe some others can get in on it .

The bale weight is going to be the deciding factor on how many it will make . So tonnage wise lets say it makes pretty much the max that I've read you can get is 6 tons per acre for the year. If you divide that by 50 pound bales you get 218 bales . So That's in a perfect world . So with out knowing what they are buying weight wise I still don't see 225 50 pound bales per acre .

Just wondering .


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> So the plan is to threaten them into paying your price?


No, they have paid $7.50 per bale for several years and the quality of the hay varies greatly. I do not know what the price is in other markets, but here $7.50 is a good price for good hay. My comment was directed at someone who was trying to tell me that people were not going to pay the price and would try to back out of the deal. I know that is not going to happen for several reasons. First, alfalfa and timothy hay does not and has not sold for less than that. Second, I don't think people are going to play games with me when they stand more to lose than I. I just want to know how to go about making quality hay. I understand markets, accounting, economics and how to guard against someone wanting something for nothing.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Chessiedog said:


> SGS sorry I'm still hung up on the number of bales coming off this field . Maybe some others can get in on it .
> 
> The bale weight is going to be the deciding factor on how many it will make . So tonnage wise lets say it makes pretty much the max that I've read you can get is 6 tons per acre for the year. If you divide that by 50 pound bales you get 218 bales . So That's in a perfect world . So with out knowing what they are buying weight wise I still don't see 225 50 pound bales per acre .
> 
> Just wondering .


All I can tell you is that I went to a guy that has grown alfalfa timothy for over 50 years nearby and another guy who had grown it for probably 30 years nearby. Each told me they get 100 to 150 bales the first cutting depending on year and weather, 75 to 100 the second cutting and 75 to 100 the third cutting and some years they get a fourth cutting. I went with 225 bales in a year which is less than 100,75 and 75 which is the minimum numbers they have been able to produce over a long time. You may be right, but I don't know how to get a better estimate. The tried to shoot for bale that were 50 to 55 pounds. That is right at 5.6 tons a year if they were 50 pound bales. I also looked at data from Ohio State on line and those numbers deemed doable.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

One other factor to consider on tons per acre for the year, each of the farmers I spoke with said that I would not do nearly that well if I went with pure alfalfa. They said the timothy helps a lot. Which is fine since neither horse barn wants pure alfalfa.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here: opportunity cost.

What would your anticipated income be from these acres if you planted them as you usually would using the equipment that you already have? You have to subtract that from your theoretical hay income to get a true picture of the value that you're adding to your operation against the additional equipment expense (and hidden expenses like storing extra equipment) and complexities of hay production. 
Then consider that you already own trucks and trailers that you could just be buying hay regionally to fill exactly what your buyer wants and not have the weather constraints and risks involved with actually growing it. 25 acres at 225 bales is only 8 semi loads. How many loads of hay could you buy and sell if you weren't actually bound by growing it? You could load them at your convenience (to a degree) and not be rushed.

Anyway, there you have it. Opportunity cost(s).


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Probably not a good measure of hay prices, but just watching craigslist in my neck of the woods (prices per bale vs ton) and a few surrounding areas, $5 per bale seems to be the going price for no-rained on orchard grass and some alfalfa/mixed hay. Timothy is rare and I see it at $6 to $6.5 per bale. I see some pure Alfalfa $5-6 per bale. This is in January when I gather folks are short on hay and maybe prices rise with that demand. Don't know if the sellers really sell what the have at that listed price, somehow I have to believe there is hay left over come spring. Orchard/mixed grass hay $4 per bale.

If I you can get $7.50 per bale - I say great! Not sure I'll see those selling prices unless there is some kind of severe drought around here and the prices float to that level.

However - to get back to some of your questions, here are a few of my window shopping comments. Take them with a grain of salt as I am far from expert material.

IMHO - you should move forward and make all of your hay. Sounds like you have a business plan in place and should recoup your expenses.

Your equipment sounds right new, so older equipment type breakdowns probably won't plague your efforts.

Your biggest enemy is going to be the weather. You can't do anything about that, but work around it. Quality equipment and high capacity can reduce the window needed to get hey in before a storm hits.

If you do 100% of your hay, you will only be a the mercy of the weather, not it and a hay contractor that can't fill a promise to cut/rake/bale hay when you need it.

Sounds exciting.

Good luck,
Bill


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## joeberg (Jun 8, 2011)

I can't wait for the pics from the shopping trip to the equipment store. I assume you'll send pics of the field, after planting, and the first crop?

Wow, I can't wait!

Joe


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

SGS said:


> No, they have paid $7.50 per bale for several years and the quality of the hay varies greatly. I do not know what the price is in other markets, but here $7.50 is a good price for good hay. My comment was directed at someone who was trying to tell me that people were not going to pay the price and would try to back out of the deal. I know that is not going to happen for several reasons. First, alfalfa and timothy hay does not and has not sold for less than that. Second, I don't think people are going to play games with me when they stand more to lose than I. I just want to know how to go about making quality hay. I understand markets, accounting, economics and how to guard against someone wanting something for nothing.


Your still not going to beable to sell all your hay for top dollar no matter what. 
Example
The weather says its going to be hot and sunny for whole week. You head out to cut the most beautiful thickest crop you have ever seen! On the fourth day you check the weather. Still sunny for several days. You head out to check the hay. Oh its just about dry. You figure you can bale mid day tomorrow. Go to bed feeling good. Middle of the night the sound of thunder get you up. Crap its raining on my nice hay. Now this is only the beginning. It now rains everyday for 3 weeks. Turning your beautiful hay into garbage. Now it finally gets dry enough to bale. Now you have brown hay at best and black hay at worst.
Now tell me if you can sell this hay for top dollar or even sell it at all. This situation is going to happen at one time or another.
Iam not trying to rain on your parade. I gave you some poor figures to work with. You had some of the best to work with. In realility over the years you will do good to have an average between the two of our results.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

I agree with them, very few horse folks want pure alfalfa . My self I have not had any luck with timothy /alfalfa . I just killed one off and turned it to just grass . It was just a small 6 acre field , but always had a hard time getting of it . I've heard timothy will make a lot of hay so I guess you just have to get it right .

Do you know how many pounds of seed of each your planting ?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

hog987 said:


> Your still not going to beable to sell all your hay for top dollar no matter what.
> Example
> The weather says its going to be hot and sunny for whole week. You head out to cut the most beautiful thickest crop you have ever seen! On the fourth day you check the weather. Still sunny for several days. You head out to check the hay. Oh its just about dry. You figure you can bale mid day tomorrow. Go to bed feeling good. Middle of the night the sound of thunder get you up. Crap its raining on my nice hay. Now this is only the beginning. It now rains everyday for 3 weeks. Turning your beautiful hay into garbage. Now it finally gets dry enough to bale. Now you have brown hay at best and black hay at worst.
> Now tell me if you can sell this hay for top dollar or even sell it at all. This situation is going to happen at one time or another.
> Iam not trying to rain on your parade. I gave you some poor figures to work with. You had some of the best to work with. In realility over the years you will do good to have an average between the two of our results.


There are no guarantees. Everyone, especially SGS understands this. No risk no reward. All investmenr is risky, but there are ways to minimize and mitigate said risk.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

SGS,

If I had friends with the means to pay top dollar for the hay I would not hesitate to give it a shot. They seem to need a steady supply of hay and are willing to pay to secure that. You have a nice outlet for all cuttings and that is rare.

You have seasoned friends locally who are willing to guide you.

It does not appear it would break the bank if profits were not entirely what the numbers suggest. You are already in a business relationship with the potential buyers. You know them and their worth. It is not like you are going to be peddling the hay on the open market or dealing with competition.

In your shoes, I would give it a shot.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

You would be higher than our price on 1st, but lower than us on 2nd and 3rd when converted to ton price from 50-55 lbs bales. We sell everything by the ton. With all cuttings going to the same buyer, the price would average out. We are north of you and can't pull quite the yield. More like 4 ton per acre for us. Have seen less than two in a drought. Your input numbers seem reasonable. I would suspect profit won't end up quite that good most years, but hay can be a good business. That's why I have done it for 25 years now. I think it comes down to do you want to invest your time and money in this venture or not.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

Chessiedog said:


> I agree with them, very few horse folks want pure alfalfa . My self I have not had any luck with timothy /alfalfa . I just killed one off and turned it to just grass . It was just a small 6 acre field , but always had a hard time getting of it . I've heard timothy will make a lot of hay so I guess you just have to get it right .
> 
> Do you know how many pounds of seed of each your planting ?


Right now I do not know how many pounds of each and am open to suggestions. I am going to check with my neighbor, but think when I planted some for him five years ago we planted 15 pound of alfalfa and 3-4 pounds of Timothy per acre.


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## SGS (Jan 5, 2015)

8350HiTech said:


> One thing that I don't think has been mentioned here: opportunity cost.
> What would your anticipated income be from these acres if you planted them as you usually would using the equipment that you already have? You have to subtract that from your theoretical hay income to get a true picture of the value that you're adding to your operation against the additional equipment expense (and hidden expenses like storing extra equipment) and complexities of hay production.
> Then consider that you already own trucks and trailers that you could just be buying hay regionally to fill exactly what your buyer wants and not have the weather constraints and risks involved with actually growing it. 25 acres at 225 bales is only 8 semi loads. How many loads of hay could you buy and sell if you weren't actually bound by growing it? You could load them at your convenience (to a degree) and not be rushed.
> Anyway, there you have it. Opportunity cost(s).


I am planning on starting with a 25 acre field that I just bought in March. The seller had it in beans last year which was part of our deal - letting him plant it one more year as part of a larger farm operation. I wanted to do something with the field other than rent it to him for next to nothing. I am concerned about planting in the spring as opposed to fall, and may wait to the fall to plant.


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## shadyoakhay (Oct 23, 2014)

IMO alfalfa is fairly easy to grow. it is in my area anyway. for me spraying was the biggest challenge until I got a self propelled sprayer. Baling you need a good hand held moisture tester, Delmhorst is the one I have and I have a sensor in the baler as well for that unit. I learned the hard way it looks way better on paper. And youll be cutting every 30 days. Im not sure what you raise but it can be difficult to pay attention to hay and row crop land. buy good cheap equipment. Cant go wrong with new Holland. It would worry me that I only had 2 customers however. Ive had horse farms tell me that theyd buy all I could make and they find it cheaper somewhere else and im stuck with it. which to me isn't an issue but id make sure it had somewhere else to go.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

SGS, seeding Alfalfa/grass mixes is usually around 15 lb Alfalfa/8 lb of whichever grass. I've never done an Alf/Tim. mix just because the mature and somewhat different times for 1st cut, and I can never get the mid-summer yield out of Timothy (2nd and 3rd cuts) like I can out of Orchardgrass. 1st cut of A/T or A/O doesn't matter...a good fertility program should give you a sh** ton of hay!

The only time I'll start a hay field in the spring will be if it's straight Alfalfa. Orchardgrass does Ok in the spring but not as good of a stand versus one that's been planted in the fall. I've never had success with our climate with spring plantings of Timothy. It doesn't have an aggressive rooting habit, and has significant injury during annual dry spells "summer slump". Leaves a stand looking pretty thinned out.

Good luck!


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## melgo66 (Sep 30, 2015)

Hope this breakdown helps you out in regards to guestimating some time and labour costs (can't really answer too much about eqpmt costs since that is very specific)...

*When to cut the crop? *"The longer a grass grows, the more its moisture content decreases. The harvest has to be at the exact time when digestibility and energy levels in the grass are at their maximum. This needs to be done before the seed heads appear on the grass, as this indicates that the nutritional quality of the grass is now decreasing on virtually a daily basis."

*Drying process?* "Once the grass is cut, it needs to be dried as quickly as possible. This is because cut grass continues to 'breathe' until it becomes sufficiently dried. And as long as this is happening, the nutritional value is being leeched from the grass. So, the faster it dries into hay, the better the nutritional content. In addition to this, if grass is subjected to rain or moisture during the drying process, then it's almost guaranteed that dust and mold will appear. This is really bad news for hay, because the monetary value of the crop for the farmer drops dramatically. Poor quality hay is worth far less than good quality."

(Just to state, this is not my own content....I took it from this resource http://smallpetselect.com/guinea-pig-guide/fresh-really-mean-talk-timothy-hay)


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Very Good.

"Once the grass is cut, it needs to be dried as quickly as possible. This is because cut grass continues to 'breathe' until it becomes sufficiently dried. And as long as this is happening, the nutritional value is being leeched from the grass. So, the faster it dries into hay, the better the nutritional content. In addition to this, if grass is subjected to rain or moisture during the drying process, then it's almost guaranteed that dust and mold will appear.

Do not forget mold will use carbohydrates from stored hay.

Until the hay has dried enough that the plant has died, the life sunctions will use up nutrition.

We loose both quantity and quality until the hay is cured.

You do good.


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## melgo66 (Sep 30, 2015)

"We loose both quantity and quality until the hay is cured."....couldn't agree more!


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