# Lime per Acre



## pengs68

Hello, looking for some advice on a good lime per acre rate. I have some hay fields I want to top coat lime. The rates the cooperative and the dealer gave me are different. The fields are Timothy, brome, Orchard grass mix. My PH was 5.6 on one. And 5.8 on the other. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.


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## rjmoses

Your PH is on the pretty low side. My guess would be, depending on your soil type (clay, sand, loam, etc.), around 4 tons/acre. However, top dressing that much in one pass probably won't work too well because lime only migrates 1/8th to 1/4 inches into the soil per year.

My suggestion would be to apply about 2 tons/acre this year, then 1 ton next year. Then wait one year (the third year) and test again for PH to see if you need to add 1-2 tons more.

While this increases the cost of spreading, the effectiveness of the lime will increase. If you were incorporating the lime by discing 8-12 deep, you could apply 4 tons at once and be OK.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## Mike120

I have always heard that 2 tons an acre was the max you wanted to put down unless you were incorporating it. Ralph's advice is spot on.


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## JD3430

Does discing kill a lot of the stand by cutting the crop, or does it actually invigorate, airerate the top layer and aid in growth?
Can you disc/lime pretty much any time over the winter as long as there's no frost? Or is there a typical season for discing (located in mid-atlantic)


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## rjmoses

JD3430 said:


> Does discing kill a lot of the stand by cutting the crop, or does it actually invigorate, airerate the top layer and aid in growth?
> Can you disc/lime pretty much any time over the winter as long as there's no frost? Or is there a typical season for discing (located in mid-atlantic)


No, aggressive enough discing to incorporate lime will kill the stand. The soil needs to be rolled over enough times so that the lime is "stirred" into the soil--kinda like mixing a cake batter.

Discing to incorporate is usually done when preparing the ground for a new stand. I spread the lime and fertilizer first, then make 2-4 passes to spread the goodies into the top 8-10" evenly. At least two passes, but sometimes more are needed depending on the soil conditions (wet, dry, compacted, etc.) and type.

You might think of top-dressing as the plant trying to eat only the icing on a cake. But you want the plant roots go deep for moisture, so the nutrients are on top and the moisture is down deep. You'll get real good plant growth IF you have enough moisture, but once things dry out, you plants start dieing because they have only been feeding on the icing.

Talking about cake has made me hungry, so see you later.

Ralph


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## vhaby

The attached graph shows that we don't always achieve the soil mixing that we intend by disking. The file shows that two attempts to disk incorporate limestone 6-inches deep (in a sandy loam soil with an initial pH at 5.2) immediately following application (pH tested at 7 months) and again at 7-months later (pH tested at 12 months) failed to change soil pH much deeper than 2 - 3 inches. At 12 months the field was moldboard plowed and disked again (pH tested several months later). Soil pH was now changed fairly uniformly down to the 6-inch depth. Because the limestone was now diluted into the 6-inch depth, pH at the soil surface was lower than what it was before plowing.

View attachment Lime incorporation pH change.ppt


Soil pH for most forage crops need not be much above 6.0 - 6.2, except for alfalfa and possibly Tifton 85 bermudagrass where the desired pH for optimum plant growth needs to be pH 6.8 to 7.0. Even higher is okay but above pH 8.3 or so, problems with nutrient tie-up could occur for sensitive crops. At pH 5.6 to 5.8 in a sandy loam soil, one ton of effective calcium carbonate equivalence limestone (ECCE; a very fine pure calcium carbonate material) should raise soil pH to the 6.0 - 6.2 range. If the soil is a heavy clay, more limestone will be needed to change pH to this level.

If disking will kill your type of grass, by necessity the limestone needs to be left on the soil surface where it will be much slower to react because it is not in good contact with soil acidity. Someone with experience with your types of grasses would need to advise you about the possibility of very light disking and damage to the grass stand.

Those of us with stands of hybrid bermudagrass can disk incorporate limestone without killing the grass as long as disking is done at the time the grass begins to green up in spring and the soil is fairly moist. At this time, disking essentially resprigs the bermudagrass which puts out roots at nodes of rhizomes. A requirement for success at this time is that the freshly disked soil must be repacked with a heavy roller to seal in the moisture, and a good rain after disking also would help.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

The max amount of our course limestone that I spread is 2 tons to the acre with a ph of 5.5 on up. My father always told me that if you spread more than 2 tons/per acre, you were wasting your money. Now I don't know the foundation of that statement, but I have always lived by that ( going on blind faith )and all of my fields stay in the 6.3 to 6.9 range with just a ton of lime added on some fields as needed. I was taking soil samples this fall and noticed that the ph had gone from 6.5 to 5.8 on one farm that suffered from the drought this summer. Upon talking to the lab technician, he informed me that he was seeing a lot of ph's falling off because of the drought, so he thought. He is suppose to follow up with me for more info. So if you were in a drought situation as I was on one farm, maybe you should take some soil samples this fall. Just a thought. Mike


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## Vol

Mike, I also have always used the 2 ton per acre rule.....my late neighbor used to say " when I lime, I use 2 tons per acre whether it needs it or not" and laugh.

Regards, Mike


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## vhaby

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> I was taking soil samples this fall and noticed that the pH had gone from 6.5 to 5.8 on one farm that suffered from the drought this summer. Mike


Possibly why your soil pH went down:

Soil pH varies from spring to fall. Most testing labs measure soil pH in a soil:water suspension, usually 1:1 or 1:2 soil:distilled water. Salt, even a very slight amount, in soil lowers the soil:water pH. What causes this to occur? From spring to fall, the soil is being fertilized (adding salt) and as the hot summer proceeds toward fall, the soil is drying and the soil salt content is becoming more concentrated. Soil samples collected in fall will show the salt-effected pH reading and it will be as much as 0.5 to 1.0 pH unit lower than in samples collected in spring because during winter, increased rainfall and less fertilizer addition allow the soil salt concentration to be washed out of the soil (leached). This salt-effected pH is more pronounced in lower buffer capacity soils (soils that have a lower capacity to resist chemical change) such as loamy sand, sandy loam, etc. compared to higher clay content soils.

I believe that the salt-effected pH is closer to the true pH of a soil, but few testing labs are willing to change their pH testing procedure by adding a very slight amount of calcium chloride to the distilled water pH test. These labs are concerned that testing pH in a dilute salt will create confusion among producers who wonder why their soil pH is now reading lower.

You can avoid this situation by always collecting soil samples in fall so that the pH test reflects the salt-effected lower pH, similar to what occurred with Mike's sample. Or, if you prefer, always collect soil samples in spring, but don't switch from spring to fall sampling if you want to avoid the salt-effected pH and receive a higher pH reading than what may actually exist in the soil.

Lime recommendations should be made using buffer pH tests or from other tests that determine the actual acidity in soil and not simply from the normal soil:water pH.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Vhaby, I take soil samples both spring and fall for all of my fields. This particular field is the only one that is low so how could that be? I have sent off some more samples to recheck. We will see. As a side note, our drought was widespread over 3 of my farms so this does not make sense to my ole brain. Thanks, Mike


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## Canderson012

Your soil test should tell you what to put out, in GA I rarely see anything go over one and a half tons per acre. Four tons is a crazy amount to put out!


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## glasswrongsize

I recieved the results from a pasture which I am going to turn to hay for rotation. The sample was taken in beginning of January. Soil ph is 5.4 and Buffer ph is 6.4. As far as different crop's recommendation for ph requirements, which is "correct" ph upon which to base my plans? The ground is pooooor and gonna need a bunch of P and K as well. Trying to plan for lime as well.
I read the posts on buffer ph, and overlooked the answer if it is contained within. 
73, Mark


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## 8350HiTech

glasswrongsize said:


> I recieved the results from a pasture which I am going to turn to hay for rotation. The sample was taken in beginning of January. Soil ph is 5.4 and Buffer ph is 6.4. As far as different crop's recommendation for ph requirements, which is "correct" ph upon which to base my plans? The ground is pooooor and gonna need a bunch of P and K as well. Trying to plan for lime as well.
> I read the posts on buffer ph, and overlooked the answer if it is contained within.
> 73, Mark


Didn't you get an application recommendation with your results?


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## glasswrongsize

8350HiTech said:


> Didn't you get an application recommendation with your results?


This is all that I rec'd








Don't everyone laugh, I Warned that it's poor ground
73, Mark


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## somedevildawg

Don't worry I ve had worse.... costs a lot of money to reclaim ground for sure.

Not sure why they didn't give a recommendation mark....soil ph is your only concern


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## somedevildawg

I would love to has some 6.4 ground, I struggle to get that here.....always apply 1 Tpa a year here

I think the buffer ph is like a baseline....not sure if that's a good analogy however.


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## slowzuki

The recommendations that came back with mine were crazy for lime but similar to you guys we can't really put on more than 2 tons per year so I just keep putting it on as I have money to buy it.


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## glasswrongsize

Around here, the local philosophy is 2 ton per acre can be spread on top, or 3 ton per acre can be tilled in.
Also found that my "Buffer PH" is only useful to make determinations of application as it gives an indicator of how much good a certain amount of lime will help with the Soil PH in a particular and specific soil. So, I guess it's 5.4 PH for my soil. Looks like regular lime of 3 tons per acre for me (plowed under) and maybe some quick acting ag lime this year...and Lespedeza (AKA Poor-Man's Alfalfa) as it should handle the low PH.

73, Mark

http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/soil_buffer_ph.htm

According to the article about Buffer PH "This is a value that is generated in the laboratory, it is not an existing feature of the soil. Laboratories perform this test in order to develop lime recommendations, and it actually has no other practical value."


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## endrow

glasswrongsize said:


> This is all that I rec'd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> image.jpg
> Don't everyone laugh, I Warned that it's poor ground
> 73, Mark


A similar application chart from one of our relationship rented places


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## somedevildawg

Wow......that's purty good ground endrow......


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## glasswrongsize

endrow said:


> A similar application chart from one of our relationship rented places


I think my testing source will also make the recommendations if prospective crop and anticipated yield are provided.
I should have put SOMETHING down for crop and yield, but crop was going to be dependent on soil condition... need to know one before the other...the knowledge needs are circular in the beginning stages and I had to find a jumping-on point. If I would have put down X ton of alfalfa, it would have been moot as the PH is too low to even get it to grow at this point....but I didn't know THAT until I got the soil test.

On the bright side, I've learned a lot about soil and corrective steps/requirements by researching. The problem is: the more you learn-the more questions you have.
73, Mark


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## FCF

glasswrongsize said:


> The problem is: the more you learn-the more questions you have.
> 73, Mark


Or: The more you know, the more you realize there is a lot more that you don't know. Yogi Berra might have said; "You gotta know what you don't know". :huh:


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## endrow

glasswrongsize said:


> I think my testing source will also make the recommendations if prospective crop and anticipated yield are provided.
> I should have put SOMETHING down for crop and yield, but crop was going to be dependent on soil condition... need to know one before the other...the knowledge needs are circular in the beginning stages and I had to find a jumping-on point. If I would have put down X ton of alfalfa, it would have been moot as the PH is too low to even get it to grow at this point....but I didn't know THAT until I got the soil test.
> On the bright side, I've learned a lot about soil and corrective steps/requirements by researching. The problem is: the more you learn-the more questions you have.
> 73, Mark


 I agree you're a hundred percent correct that pH just has to be worth it has to be. To get things moving quickly I would look for Ag Lime that is fine. I want a product that 75% passes through a 100 mesh screen and 50% passes through a 200 mesh screen. We never plow or disk any lime in due to notill practice


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## 8350HiTech

glasswrongsize said:


> I think my testing source will also make the recommendations if prospective crop and anticipated yield are provided.
> I should have put SOMETHING down for crop and yield, but crop was going to be dependent on soil condition... need to know one before the other...the knowledge needs are circular in the beginning stages and I had to find a jumping-on point. If I would have put down X ton of alfalfa, it would have been moot as the PH is too low to even get it to grow at this point....but I didn't know THAT until I got the soil test.
> 
> On the bright side, I've learned a lot about soil and corrective steps/requirements by researching. The problem is: the more you learn-the more questions you have.
> 73, Mark


Is it too late to contact your tester and give them a crop so that they could give you a recommendation?


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## glasswrongsize

8350HiTech said:


> Is it too late to contact your tester and give them a crop so that they could give you a recommendation?


I'm sure it's not too late, and they are very helpful (I'm told) in speakin on phone and explaining and recommending. Also, the company I use to purchase and/or apply is also very good at it. I have not spoken with them yet either. Actually, I've got most of the information needed to formulate a fertilizer plan from the U of I website, here, and the innerweb. Buffer ph confounded me for a bit, but have found my answer. 
There is something about knowing HOW they got to their recommendation that I need for my own inquisitive mind. I love to learn and go full bore into everything that I attempt. 
I'm JUST starting to wrap my head around all the meanings of the samples and how to use the data to formulate an economically effective plan.
Short answer...even if they gave me a reccomendation, I would want to know how it was reached. 
Very interesting. 
73, Mark


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## endrow

glasswrongsize said:


> I'm sure it's not too late, and they are very helpful (I'm told) in speakin on phone and explaining and recommending. Also, the company I use to purchase and/or apply is also very good at it. I have not spoken with them yet either. Actually, I've got most of the information needed to formulate a fertilizer plan from the U of I website, here, and the innerweb. Buffer ph confounded me for a bit, but have found my answer.
> There is something about knowing HOW they got to their recommendation that I need for my own inquisitive mind. I love to learn and go full bore into everything that I attempt.
> I'm JUST starting to wrap my head around all the meanings of the samples and how to use the data to formulate an economically effective plan.
> Short answer...even if they gave me a reccomendation, I would want to know how it was reached.
> Very interesting.
> 73, Mark


 I like your way of thinking. I will also tell you we farm a fair amount of different crops and fields and rarely do we use one of those sheets or recommendations to the T. When we spread lime we don't take a farm apart section by section we spread the whole farm. When looking at fertility for a particular Crop, we often apply the amount of fertilizer what is required to produce the particular Crop we are growing that year. We try not to deviate from that unless we have a field with a nutrient is very low or a nutrient it level is very high. We apply our dairy manure to the areas where the potash is specifically low. It is our goal to bring our base saturation k values to 4% or better. We are for sure a couple years away from grid testing and variable-rate applications of fertilizer


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## hay wilson in TX

*Read and believe vhabey's pronouncements*.

You all have burst my bubble. For years and years I assumed all those blessed with an acid soil were just plain lucky with few problums for fertility.

My friends farming in East Texas for bermudagrass simply dusted their grass with Super Fine Lime and all is well.

I have heard that Lime that includes magnesium may end up with an excess of Mg and that causes problems,

I have heard the sodium in the sodium cloride salt will bring up a pH faster and higher than any other ammendment.

Farming can be a very interesting occupation. Frustrating also.

OBTW my soil usually reads 8,500 ppm Ca and an 8.0 pH +/- .y friends farming in East Texas for bermudagrass simply dusted their grass with Super Fine Lime and all is well.

I have heard that Lime that includes magnesium may end up with an excess of Mg and that causes problems,

I have heard the sodium in the sodium cloride salt will bring up a pH faster and higher than any other ammendment.

Farming can be a very interesting occupation. Frustrating also.

OBTW my soil usually reads 8,500 ppm Ca and an 8.0 pH +/- . I have different problems.


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## trac nun

cone spreader flow rate
^^ google sheets calculator^^







leave the tester in the ground 5 minutes before each test.


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