# The Patient Is In The Shop



## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

After 54yrs, the PTO gave up the ghost.









After a quick trip to town to pick up some 9/16 bolts, then the game begins. Oooooomph!

First thing is to build a fixture which will allow me to remove the PTO housing without crushing my delicate tootsies. Gotta plan, and ready to move. Here at the compound, the boys in the engineering department have been putting in a bit of overtime.

I have a feeling this is gonna get real pricey real fast. One way to think of it, is to tally up all the tractor payments YOU HAVEN'T MADE IN THE 20YRS YOU'VE OWNED THIS THING, then suck it up and spend a grand. (Already got the clutch discs in, and the bill is already at $500, with probably more to come)


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

But you will be satisfied with it and know it is done right, and it will give years of good service down the road. Good luck!


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Finally got going on this one. Today was a real disappointment though.

The drawbar support has to be removed so that the PTO case will clear it as it's removed from the transmission.






I'd figured on this, but I hadn't figured on what followed.

The bolts are readily accessible, all for one.






The PTO clutch lever blocks the bolt.

So, I figure I have to remove the clutch lever. Looks as if it's pinned to the actuator shaft. The pin, where I can actually reach it, was mushroomed. So, I hit it with a burr to remove the mushroom, and outline the pin (you'll generally see a hairline crack where the pin goes into the bore after grinding the surface).






NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING vaguely resembling the parting line between pin and hole. So, to verify I haven't lost my senses, I check the backside of the assembly.






Yup, there's a pin allright&#8230;...but I can't get to it to drive it out. I tried, it's so cramped that all I can get is a feeble tap with the hammer. Nothing budges.

So, the plan is to cut the lower part of the lever off  in order to clear the bolt. DOH!!!!!!!!!!! Was getting a bit late, and I just couldn't bear to bring the grinder out. It'll still be there in the morning.

Now...&#8230;&#8230;...onto the next time killer.

The plate that holds the drawbar support is cracked on one side, where the bolts go thru






This is repairable, but it involves cutting out the bad part, and welding in new steel. Not a biggy in itself......but locating the holes is gonna be a PITA. Need to cut the patch, then use transfer punches inside the holes to mark them for drilling (transfer pins), then fit the patch to the plate while it's partially installed. Oooomph!

Just to keep things in balance  The other side is buggered up too. Doggone bolt was snapped off by some moron






If I'm lucky, and the planets are all in alignment, I can weld a nut to the projection, and power the broken bolt out.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

What model Oliver?

My idiot uncle managed to rip one of those drawbar assemblies clear off our 4-150.

Dumbass tried to pull a fully loaded cement truck out with it.

He didn't have the right drawbar in it for the 2 1/2" kinetic rope, so being brain dead he hooked the clevis to the support, backed right up against the truck, then tried road gear.

To top it all off and to make it a firing squad offense, he didn't ask if he could use it either, just showed up and took it when nobody was here.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

It's a 1964 Oliver 1850, if I remember the year correctly. I've had it for about 21yrs.

Been a wonderful piece of equipment. Only thing I've done to it is rebuild the steering shaft sector, rebuild one cylinder that had a broken ring which scored the liner, and replace the rear rims due to calcium damage (had calcium in it when I bought it)

Old gal may be coming to the end of her years though. The "Hydra Power" unit is starting to slip. Parts are not available anymore, so the only alternative is finding a used unit which probably is no better than what I have. Runs fine when fluid is cold, then starts to shift with a heavy jerk when the fluid starts to reach operating temp. This occurs every time you release the clutch, even when the unit is left in one gear. And occurs when shifting over/under on the go.

There's used units out there, but it's a pig in a poke. No way I know of testing them before you install them.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I had an old Olie 1850, was a mighty fine tractor EXCEPT for the poorly design on that 'steer shaft sector'. :mellow:

And of course teaching new operators, about not using the under drive while going down hill. Didn't need to do that many times, before you got tired of changing your underwear. 

Larry


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

farmersamm said:


> It's a 1964 Oliver 1850, if I remember the year correctly. I've had it for about 21yrs.
> 
> Been a wonderful piece of equipment. Only thing I've done to it is rebuild the steering shaft sector, rebuild one cylinder that had a broken ring which scored the liner, and replace the rear rims due to calcium damage (had calcium in it when I bought it)
> 
> ...


Have you tried Maibach Tractor in Ohio? They have access to all kinds of parts that Agco obsoleted decades ago. Only place I know of in the country to get the steering "bearings" for all three of our White articulated's. They actually place a order for them from a manufacturer every couple of years and have a batch made.

Normally don't have issues with steering on ours unless you find a groundhog or tile hole. Actually been long enough I'd probably have to dig a parts or service manual out before tearing into the next one.

We have my Grandfathers 1964 Oliver 1600 diesel yet, it uses the same style PTO clutch as the 66, 77, and 88's did, just larger.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

The way the broken bolt is sticking out start with welding a big flat washer on. Cooling to clean slag real good of course,then weld the nut on.

If not successful the first time keep welding it all back. Working on cast iron tanks on old Cat radiators I have maybe done the same one 5 or 6 times but have ALWAYS COME OUT.

I have a hard hard time coming close to center and keep it strait if drilling them out.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Quick update I guess.

Have to cut and weld on this thing, so decided it was time, after all these years, to buy a stinkin' power washer  The grease is a real issue on this one.

Fire danger due to the incredible grease buildup.

All the bolts that attach the drawbar support are full thru holes into the transmission.

Can't really pull anything apart without cleaning, for fear of getting dirt inside the final drive case. So I finally had to bite the bullet.







Money I really didn't want to spend. Hoping it's powerful enough at 2800psi 

Used to do this on everything with a putty knife, and brake cleaner. Guess those days are over. 300 clams is a bit of money. If it works out, it's gonna be a real time saver. Have a transmission swap coming up on the F-150, side tappet gasket same truck, and engine work on the other Allis (complete swap, or repair......dunno which yet).


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Welcome to the modern age :lol: 

Doggone pressure washer worked pretty doggone good.

































Mostly used just plain ol' water. Slopped a bit of that purple stuff on there after knocking the majority of the grease off, used a paint brush. Then hit it with pressure again. Seems to do a decent job gotta say.

Doggone!


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Ready to rock 

Weld up a fixture for removing the assembly tomorrow. Ought to be adaptable to my caddy.

The casting has tapped holes for attaching a fixture (Thank God).


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've never had one like yours apart. Have done the old school ones of course, had so many 88's, 77's and so on we kept a spare assembly around. Three bolts and change the entire thing.

Have done a lot of the newer 55 series as well.

Wish list is a hot power washer, I have a steam cleaner and it doe a great job, if you can see what your doing.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

The problem bolt came out with some finagling. Not sure how easy it's gonna be to get it back in.









Clearance issues with the caddy.









Just about have to pull everything off the stinkin' azz end of the tractor to gain some room.









Bottom fixture ready to go.















Will machine the adjustable straps in the AM, and hopefully pull the unit out tomorrow.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Re:: A "hot power washer"

I looked at one for S&G's, and about fell over when I saw the price


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## cjsr8595 (Jul 7, 2014)

why not run a couple of bolts in that dude and get a couple of guys and remove it. It is that heavy that you need that apparatus to hold it?


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

cjsr8595 said:


> why not run a couple of bolts in that dude and get a couple of guys and remove it. It is that heavy that you need that apparatus to hold it?


Not sure how much it weighs. But it looks like something that needs to be removed carefully.






Heavy castings, nose heavy...&#8230;&#8230;..It also interacts with the operating lever forks, and needs to be finessed to get it out. (Parts guy told me that the bronze collar, that the forks fit into, is in the neighborhood of $500)

I suppose a guy could just unbolt it, and let it fall on the ground, but that would be rather inelegant 

Finished the straps, and waiting for the weather to clear in the shop :lol:


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## cjsr8595 (Jul 7, 2014)

I love that all your photos say Uranus.............makes me laugh every time i look at them! I understand where you are coming from on the finesse part.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

55 series are a LOT easier. Pull the power shaft and a piece of 4 inch angle iron is all you need to pull the unit. Drill two 3/8" holes that you fasten to the top two holes in the shaft cover, then a piece of 1/4z2 with several holes drilled for balance and thats welded to the top of the angle, chain and a loader and its out.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

First, the driveshaft had to be removed. It's threaded on the end, and a bolt is used to pull it from the body of the tractor. Multiple splines have to be lined up to get it out. This requires patience. The PTO shaft is gently rotated a bit at a time until the splines all line up. I've heard of people using impact wrenches to jostle the shaft for lineup......but I can't see rattling a shaft that's virtually irreplaceable.







Dust cover, filler plug, and rubber o ring has to be removed first. Not many people running these machines, so I figure there's no point in going into the little details.









Hooked it up to the caddy, and out she comes.









The unit has to be lowered, and tilted, in order for it to drop down below the forks, and clear them.









Get it up on the table tomorrow, and start pulling the clutch assembly out of it.









By the looks of it, the thing can't be disassembled while it's on the caddy. The gears are held in by the clutch housing, which has to be separated from the main case. Unless the whole thing is laying on it's back, my thinking is, that the gears will want to come out on the ground. Move it with the FEL I guess (I just don't see me and K'kins wrestling this chunk of iron). Be a darn sight easier if this were a shop with a concrete floor. Be a simple matter of using a cherry picker to move it to the table. Is what it is I guess.....just oughta be grateful for what we have.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Pulled the loader into the "shop", and hooked 'er up.









My beautiful assistant helped to lay it on its back on the table while I tried not to destroy anything with the loader  (got the hood off the tractor because I've been meaning to pull the radiator to seal it)







This thing weighs a ton, at least for two skinny minnies like us. I'd honestly put it at somewhere between 1-200lbs, and that's just a guess.

A drive pin that secures the clutch to the gear shaft has to be removed, then the clutch housing can be removed. The fit on the shaft is so close that it has to be gently wedged apart to get it moving. Then I climbed up on the table, and lifted it straight off from above. (K'kins: "You're gonna break your neck gettin' up there!!" )

















I've actually torn the clutch pack down, but this is a pic of it still together. At this point, I see no good in describing the analysis of what's wrong. I'm still trying to figure it out, and don't care to give bad advice.







I'm thinking there's a problem with the bronze 'throwout' / 'actuator' bearing/yoke. It's very loose, with exceptional radial runout. (I've run the PTO using a bungie cord wrapped around the lever to keep it engaged, and may have toasted the bearing)

The clutch friction plates (bronze) are all about 2-5 thou below MINIMUM thickness. The driven plates are mostly within spec, with the exception of 2.

This still doesn't explain why the clutch won't cam over. I believe, although worn, the parts are within adjustment capable of at least some engagement. I can back off the adjusting nut, and cam the levers over by hand, and they stay cammed over, why this doesn't happen when it's in the tractor is a mystery.

There's some strange wear on the forks inside the tractor final drive. I don't understand the pattern BECAUSE IT'S NOT ON THE PRESSURE SIDE OF THE FORKS  

Judging by some substitutes from original bolts, and a few other things, I've come to the conclusion that someone's been inside this clutch before me. It's not really surprising...&#8230;..the tractor is over 50yrs old, and I've only had it for about 25 of those years.

The clutch never really worked top notch, and would pop out occasionally. I'm even wondering if the unit was installed, properly engaging the forks, when it was messed with. No amount of adjustment would cause the clutch to cam over, all it did was to force the lever forward, and no amount of force would allow you to pull it back. The specs call for 58-64lbs force, measured just below the lever handle, to engage the clutch. A guy would just about have to bend the doggone lever to apply that kinda force. (This reminds me of the rather bogus specs for setting pinion gear preload on differentials.....follow factory specs, and you burn the bearings up in a few hundred miles.....preload doesn't mean a heavy drag)

Should know more tomorrow I guess.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

This is driving me nuts. But workin' on a theory :lol:

Has to do with the cab.








I'll shoot myself if it turns out to be something this simple.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Don’t feel bad I pulled a trans apart to replace a broken spring one time that wasn’t broke. Turned out to be a broken ear in the shift mechanism. If I would have looked at parts book better I would have caught it in the serial number break.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Farmerbrown2 said:


> Don't feel bad I pulled a trans apart to replace a broken spring one time that wasn't broke. Turned out to be a broken ear in the shift mechanism. If I would have looked at parts book better I would have caught it in the serial number break.


 :lol: Well, at least I don't feel like The Lone Stranger :lol:


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Ok, so here it is. My official induction (once again) into the Moron Hall Of Fame :lol:

I measured the height of the clutch when engaged, and when disengaged. Recorded the total travel. Went outside, and measured fork travel inside the gearbox. DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It wasn't traveling far enuff to engage the clutch.

I stood there scratchin' my head, and looked at the cab again. IT's the only thing between the PTO, and my sweaty little hand on the lever.

Well doods, here ya go 







See that stupid box on the azz end of the tractor, with all the cables runnin' in/out of it?

Wanna see where one of them cables was routed?????






(I took a pic of this area the other day, and put it in the thread with the cable moved out of the way to see if the lever was meaningfully obstructed by the cable, this pic is as it was till then)

While this thing's been outta adjustment for about 4yrs, it fully crapped out WHEN I BOUGHT THE NEW TO ME NH650 BALER with the fancy schmanzy monitor 

So...&#8230;&#8230;...At least I had a chance to get up close, and personal, with Oliver PTO guts, and I might as well replace some seals while I'm in there I guess. Some days it doesn't pay to get outta bed


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Nah, dont feel bad. None of us thought of it either. At least you found the problem and its gonna work now, thats the main thing.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Thanks, everyone, for the positive input. I do feel like an idiot. Something about " forest for the trees"


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