# How do I handle this customers hayfield?



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Have been doing this hayfield for one season. It's 2 fields about 40 acres with potential to go to 75. The 40 I did this year yielded only 52 4x5 round bales. 2nd cutting a dismal 15 4x5 round bales. The only reason I even did a 2nd cutting is because I promised I would. 
So the yield is pretty pathetic. Fields have some weeds, pretty much just $105/ton mushroom hay. 
Owner will not allow fertilizer or weed killers. Forget it, ain't gonna happen. He will allow lime and mushroom soil top dressing on the fields. 
I don't know if I should keep them, or walk away. 
Really hate to turn away anything this early in my hay farming business.


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## GawasFarm (Jul 10, 2013)

Are you renting, sharing, or custom work?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Guessing that your bales weigh about 800#, your yield was about .7 tons/acre--pretty thin. Without fertilizer, you just ain't going to get a decent yield.

Ralph

Bad business is worse than no business at all.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD, you need to have a kind but forthright talk with the landowner....informing them that you cannot operate with the kind of yields you are getting with your overhead fixed costs. If they will not allow fertilizer they will have to get someone else to maintain their fields. Sounds like they are greenies so the outcome will probably not be favorable....maybe try getting them to allow split fall/spring applications of nitrogen and inform them this way there is alot less runoff of nitrates by splitting applications.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

This is easy JD....you have a rotary right, just charge him to cut it.....problem solved . You can thank me later


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Round up a bunch of pig crap. Best fertilizer ever and over seed some hay. It will help the yield alot.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> Round up a bunch of pig crap. Best fertilizer ever and over seed some hay. It will help the yield alot.


What is the TDN of mixed redroot pigweed and dock hay? Looks like that is where you may be going


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I dont know but thats how I grew the best hay. Never had a field as good since I quit the pigs.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

They want it to be an "organic" farm. 
I did offer to rotary mow the fields for $75/hr if he'd also let me take one hay cutting per year.
Currently, he has an old allis charmers 60 hp with a 8' mower and it takes him 2+ days to cut it. He's asked me what a new 15' mower would cost, I told him about $15,000 but his old tractor won't pull it.
Maybe I should just cut it 1x per year? The 2nd cut isn't worth it.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Pig crap is organic lol. I hate dealing with greenies you can have them lol. Your choices are limited when they want to be like that. If you cant use commercial fertilizer you will have to use some kind of crap. What kind of grass is the field now? And what are you trying to grow in the end?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

It would be great if the owner could be convinced to attend an Extension seminar on hay or pastures. Seems many these days are getting their information off the internet.

If we take off, we have to put back.

If we do nothing the nature will reclaim the land.

With the current circumstances I would only cut it once a year, late in the year for maximum yield, and sell it as mushroom hay.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim/South said:


> It would be great if the owner could be convinced to attend an Extension seminar on hay or pastures. Seems many these days are getting their information off the internet.
> If we take off, we have to put back.
> If we do nothing the nature will reclaim the land.
> 
> With the current circumstances I would only cut it once a year, late in the year for maximum yield, and sell it as mushroom hay.


I think that's where I'm going with this. It's too bad because this could end up being my biggest field. 
I wonder if I could convince them to pay for part of the mushroom soil topdressing and lime?


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

There are some alternative fertilizers out there (fish meal, seaweed meal, blood meal, etc) that will let him keep it "organic". Is he going thru a certification process established by your state? He can't claim it's organic without the certification, and there is no additional value to being "organic" without the certifications.

Going organic is a process. You might try talking to him about using chemicals/fertilizer to get the field in shape now, then start the certification process. You can't start out with garbage and then go organic, all you will ever have is garbage.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

I have a similar situation. Fortunately I also have animals so I have plenty of "Farm Made" Fertilizer that the land owner is fine with. My issue now is all the golden rod, they will not allow any spraying of any kind. So my strategy for the last few years has been to hay this field as early and often as I can to get rid of the golden rod. Unfortunately this last summer was so wet that my plan failed and i lost the battle. The plus side was my horses are tolerating the golden rod, and because of late good weather second cut wasn't too bad.

My other option is to start from scratch and plow the field under, that leaves me with more out of pocket expenses and the loss of a good hay field while it gets re-established.

All I can offer you as advice is to cut often, and try to convince them for you to use some sort of fertilizer.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Just charge him to custom hay it. So much per bale with a certain numbers of bales for a minimum.

I would love to have a outlet for my hay like your mushroom hay. Your getting prices for crap hay that Iam getting for good hay. And people around here still wine and complain about my prices. I guess if they don't like my prices I have about 40 other messages on my phone right now to return. And if we keep getting snow like we have so far the price of hay will just go up.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> I dont know but thats how I grew the best hay. Never had a field as good since I quit the pigs.


just messin with you man!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Hayman1 said:


> just messin with you man!


Lol I figured


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Know a place that is organic and they reclaimed a lot of ground by planting clover . NOW tell me all the bad stuff about clover


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

I'd take one cut a year. Or mow it down close in the fall and disk it a couple times either in the fall or spring while its still damp and frost seed red clover. Probably could wait till it warms up some while its still moist and disk a few times run over it with a drill and seed a grass clover mix and keep it mowed close all summer to let the seeding establish and it would help with weeds too. Add some lime if you can.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Lime and compost is ok. Compost is real popular out here because its a by product of mushroom farming. They have a compost soil left over and they want to get rid of it for free, but you pay $75/ tri axle trucking fee for each load. Takes a lot of loads to do 50 acres even just a 1/2" thick.
It wouldn't be worth adding it unless HE paid for it. 
One other thing worth mentioning is there are a few spots clean enough, maybe 10 4x5 round bales worth that's clean enuf to sell as horse hay. Rest is weeds and grass, maybe a 50/50 mix.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Lime and compost is ok. Compost is real popular out here because its a by product of mushroom farming. They have a compost soil left over and they want to get rid of it for free, but you pay $75/ tri axle trucking fee for each load. Takes a lot of loads to do 50 acres even just a 1/2" thick.
> It wouldn't be worth adding it unless HE paid for it.
> One other thing worth mentioning is there are a few spots clean enough, maybe 10 4x5 round bales worth that's clean enuf to sell as horse hay. Rest is weeds and grass, maybe a 50/50 mix.


Hey at least a lot of weeds have better feed value that the hay. So than sell it as high feed value hay and charge more for it. Remember pretty hay is not always the best to feed.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

This is really easy. If the situation is such that you can't make any money unless the landowner is the one applying the fertilizer (which he won't), don't do it. Just don't. Like said earlier, bad work is worse than no work.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Good point you make. Here's how I'm looking at it:
Even if NO fertilizer is applied and I do ONE cut, I'll probably get 75 bales. 
Shouldn't take more than 3-4 days if I really hustle. 
GP on 65 mushroom is $2,600
GP on 10 horse bales is $750
Total GP is $3,350 for 3- 4 days of work. Not too shabby. 
I realize there's fuel, trucking and typical overhead which might bring me down to a net profit of $2,000.....still not too bad. Better'n settin home!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

So you're renting it for free? That helps!!

I like your math. For mulch. As long as the landowner doesn't mind if you roll in and august and take one "big" cutting. I'd be surprised if he/she didn't mind that.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> So you're renting it for free? That helps!!
> I like your math. For mulch. As long as the landowner doesn't mind if you roll in and august and take one "big" cutting. I'd be surprised if he/she didn't mind that.


That's right. I pay no rent. No way. 
He wants to either pay me to do a few batwing mowings, or try to duct tape his old mower together and do it himself before and after I take a cutting of hay off. Now if he pays me to batwing it 2 times a year PLUS a hay cutting, I'd feel much better.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Good point you make. Here's how I'm looking at it:
> Even if NO fertilizer is applied and I do ONE cut, I'll probably get 75 bales.
> Shouldn't take more than 3-4 days if I really hustle.
> GP on 65 mushroom is $2,600
> ...


I like your math as well but if I owned the field I would say you need to mow it 3 times a year at the least. To get the hay making rights for free


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I agree, but he's so cheap, he wants to mow it himself. Now that his mower is just about shot, he's considering hiring me to do the mowing.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD Where I am at guys would pay $25 to $50 per acre for hay ground like that and put lime and chicken manure on it . They travel 80 miles for hay ground ...Any kind of Farm land is aggressively sought


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Exactly, endrow. Exactly.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> JD Where I am at guys would pay $25 to $50 per acre for hay ground like that and put lime and chicken manure on it . They travel 80 miles for hay ground ...Any kind of Farm land is aggressively sought


That's interesting. I can't pay rent. In my opinion, I'm doing them as much of a favor as they're doing me. What would it cost them to hire someone to cut a field 2-3x per year if they didnt own the necessary equipment to do it themselves?

The big difference between where I live and where you are in PA is this: 
where I am, most people who own large open tracts of land are white collar people who have no background in farming, yet they buy these huge old farms and then have no tools or talent to care for it, so they to go about finding someone like me to farm for them for free or batwing for $$.
Where you live, most large landowners are farmers or they possess both the tools and the talent to farm or batwing their big property, So they would not want to pay someone to do what they can already do nor would they not charge rent.

Anyway, I'm not paying rent unless its a big money maker. 
At least that's they way I see it. Your results may vary


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I deliver hay to a guy that has a bunch of rented land. But some of the tracts are similar to yours, except - the landlords PAY him to mow the field (he chooses the haybine), and then he sells the mushroom hay. I wish I could do something like that here.....

Rodney


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Rodney R said:


> I deliver hay to a guy that has a bunch of rented land. But some of the tracts are similar to yours, except - the landlords PAY him to mow the field (he chooses the haybine), and then he sells the mushroom hay. I wish I could do something like that here.....
> 
> Rodney


It's funny you say that.....makes me think I should offer to "mow" their fields, not giving any indication of what I will use to mow it. Then come in and cut it with hay tools and keep all the hay. Then send a bill for mowing. 
Each year older I get, I become less sympathetic to a guy pulling down a 1/4 million a year beating me up for $500 to cut a 40 acre field.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

What can you get for manure around there? Between me and the other local guys around here who aren't organic but just cheap, there are plenty of options. Cow and chicken poo, eggshells, wood ash. The best one is a neighbor who gets trailer loads of expired fish food. He won't give up his source but its awesome, plenty of N and the fish oil shines up the spreader.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

You would be lucky to get road ditches for free here.Some will pay 25-50 per acre for them.They actualy fight over them.So I guess I would be thankful for what you get for free.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

We get some ground for free just taking the hay and putting down fertilizer and to keep the Amish off of it. Started as 25 acres that only had 5 acres worth any kind of good hay. After 4 years of slowly rotating in to our cropping harvested all but an acre. Got 54 4x5's and three loads of oatlage. Not bad since the first year. Only get one cutting a year off of it. Another farm we use we help out when they need us to. Another we trade 10 bales for 15 acres. The rest of the ground we rent its basically as long as you pay enough to pay the taxes the landowner is happy. I feel very lucky to have people like this to work with and its important to keep up a good relation with them.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> It's funny you say that.....makes me think I should offer to "mow" their fields, not giving any indication of what I will use to mow it. Then come in and cut it with hay tools and keep all the hay. Then send a bill for mowing.
> Each year older I get, I become less sympathetic to a guy pulling down a 1/4 million a year beating me up for $500 to cut a 40 acre field.


Wow. You figure you're netting over 2k for three days work at this property and you feel the need to bill the landowner because he's making a lot of money. This attitude is not going to work out for you in the hay business. Let's look at what will happen:

Landowner gets phone call from another hay grower who's "more than happy to do it for free". You're out acreage. Whoops.

Landowner questions this bill on his own, googles what hay is worth and decides he needs $1000 per year in rent. Turns out he makes a lot of money because he's a shrewd business man. Whoops.

Word gets around. Other landowners find out. Now they hear you're that greedy guy. They want more rent. Or they don't want to work with you at all anymore. Whoops.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Wow. You figure you're netting over 2k for three days work at this property and you feel the need to bill the landowner because he's making a lot of money. This attitude is not going to work out for you in the hay business. Let's look at what will happen:
> Landowner gets phone call from another hay grower who's "more than happy to do it for free". You're out acreage. Whoops.
> Landowner questions this bill on his own, googles what hay is worth and decides he needs $1000 per year in rent. Turns out he makes a lot of money because he's a shrewd business man. Whoops.
> Word gets around. Other landowners find out. Now they hear you're that greedy guy. They want more rent. Or they don't want to work with you at all anymore. Whoops.


Good riddance then. Take out my payments and repairs and the fact that hay farming boils down to about 2 months total out of a 12 month year and yeah.....I need to make that kind of money. Let him pay $1,000 per cut to have 50+ acres bush hogged and I bet he'll come running back real fast. There's about 5 people down here who farm hay. They all do the same thing. Nobody wants to cut 50 acres of milkweed and dogbane and try to sell it. Nobody hayed the guys place for 10 years previous to me, so it couldn't have been the pot of gold you think it is. 
Sorry you don't agree with my attitude, but I don't see any rich hay farmers down here, but everyone's property I cut has an owner making in excess of 1/4 mill per year. I might make 1/10th that. I'm getting all I can within the limits of what i believe is acceptable. I'm not trying to win a popularity contest. I'm trying to raise a family, pay a mortgage, etc. I'm not gonna get that done getting screwed over by a guy who wants me to cut his property's weeds for free and won't let me spray for the weeds to make a decent crop.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Here's the deal. If you're farming rented ground, it IS a popularity contest. I certainly don't begrudge your attempts to make a living, but there is always someone in farming willing to do it a few dollars cheaper than you. Always. The guys in your area farming thousands of acres of mulch hay CAN bale 50 acres of milkweed and sell it because they can mix a few bales in with otherwise clean loads. Happens all if the time.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Here's the deal. If you're farming rented ground, it IS a popularity contest. I certainly don't begrudge your attempts to make a living, but there is always someone in farming willing to do it a few dollars cheaper than you. Always. The guys in your area farming thousands of acres of mulch hay CAN bale 50 acres of milkweed and sell it because they can mix a few bales in with otherwise clean loads. Happens all if the time.


Then let "them" have his land. Nobody did it for 10 years prior to me. Goes to show you how many guys wanted it....ZERO. 
You are right, there is always someone willing to do it cheaper than me. That's called a "race to the bottom".


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> Then let "them" have his land. Nobody did it for 10 years prior to me. Goes to show you how many guys wanted it....ZERO.
> You are right, there is always someone willing to do it cheaper than me. That's called a "race to the bottom".


That was before.Now after you cleaned it up someone may come along and be willing to do it for less."Monkey see monkey do"Seems like anytime a guy finds a ninche,there will be others trying to copy it or squeeze their way into it.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Farming commodities is always going to be that race to the bottom. It's the framework we must deal with. The only good way to avoid that with rented ground is too keep landowners happy. Tread lightly. That's all I'm trying to say.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> That was before.Now after you cleaned it up someone may come along and be willing to do it for less."Monkey see monkey do"Seems like anytime a guy finds a ninche,there will be others trying to copy it or squeeze their way into it.


But I haven't cleaned it up.
He won't let me clean it up (spray it to kill weeds or fertilize to green it up).
Still looks like the same weed infested mess as when I got there this spring.

I think it's hard for some of you to fully understand the whole picture. He has a mower which he uses to cut the whole property, but it is on its last legs. When he asked me to cut and bale his weeds, I believe it is saving him many thousands he would have to spend to buy new bush hog or pay me or someone else to bush hog it for him. 
His property nets less than 1 round bale per acre on the first cutting. I'd bet almost Nobody is gonna want to go through that much trouble for 1 round bale per acre. Probably why I'm the only one in the last 10 years to hay it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> But I haven't cleaned it up.
> He won't let me clean it up (spray it to kill weeds or fertilize to green it up).
> Still looks like the same weed infested mess as when I got there this spring.
> 
> ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

No rent is paid. Just bale the weeds and no spry or fertilize. Luckily I have an outlet to sell the hay for $40/ bale. 
I can't do it 2x/yr. 
Can only do 1x/yr because 2nd cut is so thin. Maybe 1 4x5 round bale per 3 acres. 1 bale per acre on first cut is bad enough. 1 bale per 3 acres on 2nd cut is not worth it. 
That is why it needs to be fertilized properly for long term health.

I would think that not fertilizing AND taking hay off is worse than not fertilizing and bush hogging since at least with the bush hog, clippings remain to fertilize.

I did exactly as you suggested. I told him one cut/yr and offered to bush hog it for $600/cut which in MY area, is a bargain. I told him a minimum of 3x/yr, because if I didn't, you know he'd want me to wait until chest high, then call me to cut it.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Even with free lease fields it takes a lot to get them back into shape.

I have spent a considerable amount of money trying to get free lease fields to pay. I am on my third year on two Bahia fields and am still in the red on them.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Tim/South said:


> Even with free lease fields it takes a lot to get them back into shape.
> I have spent a considerable amount of money trying to get free lease fields to pay. I am on my third year on two Bahia fields and am still in the red on them.


Same here. But better than buying feed. Makes me upset to see all this ground grown up into goldenrods and weeds. But it takes so much time and money to build them back up it isn't worth it plus they are usually so wet it limits what you can grow on it. Have thirty+ acres of good ground full of goldenrods given to us this year. Hope to put corn on it next year.


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## DKFarms (Aug 11, 2008)

I get that offer all the time. Hey, you can come bale my field for a small cut in the proceeds. 99% of the time it's just someone wanting ME to pay THEM for FREE bushhogging service. Unless I think the field can produce a profit on the very first cutting, I won't touch it. Over the years, I've cleaned up several people's places only to have someone come in and offer a bigger percentage and then have the field taken away from me after I had all the expense of renovation. Hard lesson learned, especially when dealing with friends and family. I know hay farming is fun, but let's not forget we are still businessmen and have to think clearly about what is profitable and what is not.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Around here I won't do anything without a written lease. For much the same reasons, add lime, get fertility up, clean ditches, cut tree lines back and fix tiles only to have some wanker come along and offer 5 or 10 bucks more an acre.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

With those yields JD, this is a no brainer, bushog and charge him, then go look for more fields.....

He won't let you get them in shape, I see no other alternative.....

If he did let you spray and fertilize, I would demand a 5-7 year lease, be it verbal or written....otherwise....run, don't walk away from that property


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Make it written, verbal holds no water these days.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Farming commodities is always going to be that race to the bottom. It's the framework we must deal with. The only good way to avoid that with rented ground is too keep landowners happy. Tread lightly. That's all I'm trying to say.


Well said


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