# Tractor basics



## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Hello all,

Finally, after months and months of searching and trying, we found a property in Central Virginia (about 40 min SW of Lynchburg) that will work for us. It is 33 acres that are mostly open but they are fenced and cross fenced as part of a conservation deal with the state (state fences and cross fences and drills a well for the owner and in return owner keeps cows in fenced areas provided by the state - all in an effort to protect local waterways). I don't mind the deal as I would like to be a part of a solution but I would also like to be able to use some of the land to grow some hay!

I am TOTAL beginner in all of this. We have two horses and my goal would be to provide at least some of the hay for their needs over the year. One of the paddocks is quite large (7-10 acres) so I would think it could be used for this purpose. Hence, I would like to know the following:

1) I know nothing about tractors - how do I learn to safely drive one? Where do I learn about ballasts and driving on hills, basic mechanical properties of a tractor and its operation (and I mean basics like what this lever is for or what parts do I need to stay away from in order to keep all my body parts attached), etc. etc.?

2) What size tractor do I need? I know I don't need the big monsters I see on large hay fields around but I don't want to buy something crappy and underpowered. I want to be safe on the hills (the property has some), I think 4 wheel drive is a must and I don't mind buying an old tractor I can learn to fix and use with time - I am in no hurry to produce hay immediately.

3) I can imagine the fence would be an issue in using ALL of the paddock I have in mind - how big of an issue does it really pose? I imagine a hay grower would prefer an open field due to ease of taking the tractor in and out and around.

If anyone can offer advice, I would be very thankful!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

maketo said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Finally, after months and months of searching and trying, we found a property in Central Virginia (about 40 min SW of Lynchburg) that will work for us. It is 33 acres that are mostly open but they are fenced and cross fenced as part of a conservation deal with the state (state fences and cross fences and drills a well for the owner and in return owner keeps cows in fenced areas provided by the state - all in an effort to protect local waterways). I don't mind the deal as I would like to be a part of a solution but I would also like to be able to use some of the land to grow some hay!
> 
> ...


The very best way to learn is thru first hand experience under the guidance of one of your neighbors.

If you notice a neighbor farmer that keeps a neat place, that would be a good place to strike up conversation. That usually means that they take pride in what they do and probably like to employ good judgement in all things. Sometimes the older fellas are not quite as busy as some of the others and could be more willing to share a little time with you.

Regards, Mike


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

You do not need a 4wd tractor... or a MFWD.... even on hills. It is nice to have but can cause more headaches. There that's out of the way.

It's common sense operation when it comes to tractors. If your butt puckers, you have common sense. Read the tractor manual, it has a lot of really neat information about your tractor. It will tell you all about everything you asked about its operation. Read all your implement manuals.

For access in a fence, a fence is not as permanent as it seems. Cut a hole in it wide enough to drive through.

Buy the hay.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

maketo said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Finally, after months and months of searching and trying, we found a property in Central Virginia (about 40 min SW of Lynchburg) that will work for us. It is 33 acres that are mostly open but they are fenced and cross fenced as part of a conservation deal with the state (state fences and cross fences and drills a well for the owner and in return owner keeps cows in fenced areas provided by the state - all in an effort to protect local waterways). I don't mind the deal as I would like to be a part of a solution but I would also like to be able to use some of the land to grow some hay!
> 
> ...


First of all I'd like to dissuade you from even thinking of doing hay for 1 or 2 horses, much much cheaper to buy it. If you really are determined to make hay, you MUST remember that weather is your friend & enemy and time is NEVER on your side  . So you must have equipment that does the job quickly and without breakdowns which means you have to buy used equipment that is in good condition, particularly the cutter, rake & baler and these even if used aren't cheap. For this any utility tractor between 40 &50 hp would do just fine, the tractor can be older than the haying equipment as they aren't as finicky, so you may save some money there. Your payback will be in personal satisfaction when the hay is in the barn, I don't know what price to put on this, to me it's priceless, but strictly from a financial standpoint in your situation it makes more sense to buy the hay as I said before. Good Luck with whatever you decide.


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Trillium Farm said:


> First of all I'd like to dissuade you from even thinking of doing hay for 1 or 2 horses, much much cheaper to buy it. If you really are determined to make hay, you MUST remember that weather is your friend & enemy and time is NEVER on your side  . So you must have equipment that does the job quickly and without breakdowns which means you have to buy used equipment that is in good condition, particularly the cutter, rake & baler and these even if used aren't cheap. For this any utility tractor between 40 &50 hp would do just fine, the tractor can be older than the haying equipment as they aren't as finicky, so you may save some money there. Your payback will be in personal satisfaction when the hay is in the barn, I don't know what price to put on this, to me it's priceless, but strictly from a financial standpoint in your situation it makes more sense to buy the hay as I said before. Good Luck with whatever you decide.


Hello, thanks for the advice!  Yes, I agree and I understand about being cheaper to buy the hay. I am somewhat of a self-sufficiency oriented person so I feel that having a 33 acre farm and working to pay for a mortgage on it, I should at least be able to feed two horses off it . Just like you, I feel that is priceless. In addition, I have not had much luck with the hay when I buy it - often times it has things in it (and I understand mine may too) that I would not feed my horse. Where we are renting now we have neighbors that produce hay but really it is a codeword for mowing someone's field for whatever grows in it and giving the resulting bales to the cows. I have had people come to me and offer me that hay for our horses and I refuse it regularly - they then get upset and tell me my horses are spoiled. Well, I can see the fields (they are right next to the place I am in) and I can see what grows in them. Being a bit obsessed with details and control, I think I may be able to do better in terms of quality. Price is another topic and I understand it may not pay...


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

BWfarms said:


> You do not need a 4wd tractor... or a MFWD.... even on hills. It is nice to have but can cause more headaches. There that's out of the way.
> 
> It's common sense operation when it comes to tractors. If your butt puckers, you have common sense. Read the tractor manual, it has a lot of really neat information about your tractor. It will tell you all about everything you asked about its operation. Read all your implement manuals.
> 
> ...


The fences already have big gates on them, no need to cut anything . I don't want to buy the hay if I can help it. Most old tractors in the area don't come with manuals, neither do the implements (I wish). I will try and see if the owners of these things would take the time to explain the operation to me but you know how it is - you hear something once and you retain maybe 50% if you are lucky....


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

You can get manuals for about anything if you know where to look. I would not buy a tractor much older than 25-30 years old. Any of those you can get manuals for.....same with the implements.

Regards, Mike


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Vol said:


> You can get manuals for about anything if you know where to look. I would not buy a tractor much older than 25-30 years old. Any of those you can get manuals for.....same with the implements.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Mike, thanks - I will try to find the manuals, I know what you mean!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

maketo said:


> Hello, thanks for the advice!  Yes, I agree and I understand about being cheaper to buy the hay. I am somewhat of a self-sufficiency oriented person so I feel that having a 33 acre farm and working to pay for a mortgage on it, I should at least be able to feed two horses off it . Just like you, I feel that is priceless. In addition, I have not had much luck with the hay when I buy it - often times it has things in it (and I understand mine may too) that I would not feed my horse. Where we are renting now we have neighbors that produce hay but really it is a codeword for mowing someone's field for whatever grows in it and giving the resulting bales to the cows. I have had people come to me and offer me that hay for our horses and I refuse it regularly - they then get upset and tell me my horses are spoiled. Well, I can see the fields (they are right next to the place I am in) and I can see what grows in them. Being a bit obsessed with details and control, I think I may be able to do better in terms of quality. Price is another topic and I understand it may not pay...


Assuming you haven't built your own car or truck and house and grow all of your food and bartered for your land, then having more money in your pocket by buying the hay makes you ultimately more self sufficient.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Vol said:


> You can get manuals for about anything if you know where to look. I would not buy a tractor much older than 25-30 years old. Any of those you can get manuals for.....same with the implements.
> 
> Regards, Mike


This does depend on model though. There are some fifty year old tractors I'd buy before 25 year old tractors.


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

To be blunt, if you are going to look at a tractor, or a piece of equipment that you can't operate either take a more experienced person with you or come buy from me.


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

So your local extension office should offer a tractor safety course. It should cover safe operation and how to dri be e safely on hills. 
Also I'd talk to a local farmer, we end up training someone about every other year that hasn't driven a tractor before. Volunteer to help unload hay in exchange for tractor experience. Ask to ride with them to cut ted rake and bale, then we would start slow, go to a field with a tedder and have the farmer ride with you.

If only planning to use tractor for hay, you don't need 4wd. If you need 4wd to cut your grass you shouldn't be on the field. But if it will be your main equipment for all things on 33 acres, maintaing fence, trimming, and cleaning pens and brush clearing, I'd get a 4wd with a front end loader. You don't realize how much you'll use one till you have it.

60 to 70 hp will run all the equipment you would need for a small hay operation. A small haybine, tedder, rake and baler.

The fences can be annoying but not a big problem. It's always nice to have a nice open field, turning with older equipment can be hard on the pto.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

maketo said:


> Hello, thanks for the advice!  Yes, I agree and I understand about being cheaper to buy the hay. I am somewhat of a self-sufficiency oriented person so I feel that having a 33 acre farm and working to pay for a mortgage on it, I should at least be able to feed two horses off it . Just like you, I feel that is priceless. In addition, I have not had much luck with the hay when I buy it - often times it has things in it (and I understand mine may too) that I would not feed my horse. Where we are renting now we have neighbors that produce hay but really it is a codeword for mowing someone's field for whatever grows in it and giving the resulting bales to the cows. I have had people come to me and offer me that hay for our horses and I refuse it regularly - they then get upset and tell me my horses are spoiled. Well, I can see the fields (they are right next to the place I am in) and I can see what grows in them. Being a bit obsessed with details and control, I think I may be able to do better in terms of quality. Price is another topic and I understand it may not pay...


Been there, done that & bought even the T-Shirt  Enjoy your haymaking, it will give you frustration & satisfaction as it has done to me, but I wouldn't change it for the world!


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

I can relate to your situation, I have a small set up myself, as well as two horses, and I do make my own hay. For me making hay is first and foremost because I love farming, and second, I sell the hay to generate 'income' so I can deduct my expenses on my taxes (and feed my horses).

Tractor safety is common sense. If it can roll forward, don't stand in front of it. If it can roll backward, don't stand behind it. If it's moving, don't touch it (or stand near it). If I can go down, don't stand below it. If it can go up, don't stand above it. Tractors are large and you need to be aware of where all parts of the tractor are as well as your surroundings when operating so you aren't driving through your barn or backing into your fences 

Tractor operation itself is pretty simple too. Have you ever driven a riding lawnmower? The principles are the same. A clutch pedal on the left side, two brake pedals on the right side (one brake pedal for each rear tire). You push the clutch in, shift tractor into gear, and let out on the clutch and the tractor starts moiving. You have a gear shifter (or maybe two, for switching between high and low range), a lever for raising and lower the 3 point, maybe a second lever for draft control, a lever for controlling throttle (engine speed), a lever for controlling hydraulic flow to rear remotes (if your tractor has them, which you will need), and a lever for engaging the PTO.

For a tractor, something in the 50-70 hp range would be good for you. Look for something 80's vintage or newer, and I'd recommend a tractor with a quick detach loader as well. The ability to have your loader on your tractor only when you need it is so convenient, especially when it comes to doing hay. I personally have a soft spot for Ford tractors, it's a good tractor, parts are cheap and available, and a lot of em were made. Look at something like a 4610, in price range of $8-13k. They also make them in 4x4, however it's not something I've ever needed. A John Deere 3010 or 3020 is a really popular hobby farm tractor of early 60's vintage; they were and are still a popular tractor on farms today. However, loader configurations for older tractors aren't very convenient.

As mentioned, you can find a manual for any tractor or implement online. A lot have a free download somewhere, otherwise you can find reprints on Ebay.

7-10 acres is more than enough to run your two horses, if you break them down into 3-4 paddocks so you can rotate grazing. My horses only graze at night and are in the sand lot during the day, they just get too fat. That leaves you with another 20 acres to make your hay on. If you pasture your horses May-October, you'll need about 200 bales of hay to feed them Nov-April.

What I'd really recommend is having somebody do custom baling for you for your first several years until you can learn the ropes and acquire equipment. It will cost you around $2/bale, give or take, and all the hay you have leftover you can sell. Second and third cuttings you'll probably have somewhere between 600-800 square bales (maybe even 900) per cutting from 20 acres depending on the condition of your field and the growing season. For first cutting, I have a guy come in and round bale my fields. He does everything, takes the bales, and gives me $15/round bale. You'd probably have 80ish (give or take) round bales from 20 acres and right there you'd have yourself $1,200 without having to lift a finger, and your first cut--which is garbage for your horses--is gone. You'd still end up with approx. 1200 square bales, sell 1,000 of them at $4ish/bale and you can find yourself bringing in $5,200 or thereabouts a year in hay. You'll have equipment accrual and maintenance/repair costs, as well as labor costs, but you could largely offset this with the large hay surplus you'd have. This is exactly what I do and is how the math works out for me.

Equipment--start reading up on haybines, particularly New Holland 488 or 479, average price for a good used machine is in $3-4k range. Read up on rotary rakes too, forget about the old bar rakes, if you want to make good horse hay, go rotary. You can find good used ones for $3000-$6000. Look at Kuhn, Krone, or Miller Pro, with Kuhn being the most revered. For balers, look at something like a New Holland 273, and there are nice 300-series balers too. A John Deere 336 is also a decent baler. You can find your balers in the $3000-4000 range. Look into tedders too. A 2-basket tedder would be fine for you ($1500-2500 range), but a 4-basket tedder would make for quicker work, but they're also more expensive. Then you'd probably want 3 wagons with nice running gears. Prices for these are all over the place, anywhere from $500-1200. I look for crappy wagons that might have a nice running gear and just build a new rack for them.

Then--make friends with any of the local farmers you can. Maybe offer to help throw hay for them or stand on their wagon so you can start getting exposure to being around the machinery. And read lots of stuff here and listen to what these guys have to say. Ask lots of questions, it's a friendly and very helpful crowd; they won't steer you wrong.


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## 32-0-0 (May 30, 2017)

One thing to keep in mind if you have someone cut and bale your hay is that you are at the mercy of their schedule, meaning that the guy you hire may not be available to cut the hay when it needs to be cut...remember you won't be their only customer.

In making high quality hay - as I'm sure you want to do since you will be feeding it to your horses and possibly selling the excess - the timing of cutting the grass critical. If you wait too long then the grass becomes over mature and quality drops.

Be sure to get on your custom cutters list well ahead of when the grass needs to be cut. You don't want to call him up the day before you want it cut because his answer will more than likely be, "well I can't get to you for another 2 weeks."

Here's something you might consider...I have seen startups like you that have only bought a tractor, cutter, rake (and Tedder if needed). They would have then hire somebody to do the actual baling after doing all the prep work (cutting, tedding and raking). With this setup, they wouldn't lose control of when the grass was cut. Just something to consider.

Also, you will have mechanical breakdowns...the majority will be with the Baler especially if you go with an older model. Cutters, rakes and tedders don't break down very oftetn...so by eliminating the Baler, much of breakdowns will be eliminated also. Just my opinion and two cents worth

Good luck and have fun.

Chris


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Chris makes an important point. The most frustrating part with custom baling is waiting for them to get around to you. They have their own hay and their hay is always going to get cut first.

The other thing with custom balers is some tend to have a delicate temperament. Don't bug them too much or annoy them, or they'll say to hell with you. In my area there's a big shortage of custom balers so they can be picky on who they want to work with.


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Thank you all for the replies, I have a lot of homework to do to study all of them


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Hayjosh said:


> I can relate to your situation, I have a small set up myself, as well as two horses, and I do make my own hay. For me making hay is first and foremost because I love farming, and second, I sell the hay to generate 'income' so I can deduct my expenses on my taxes (and feed my horses).
> 
> Tractor safety is common sense. If it can roll forward, don't stand in front of it. If it can roll backward, don't stand behind it. If it's moving, don't touch it (or stand near it). If I can go down, don't stand below it. If it can go up, don't stand above it. Tractors are large and you need to be aware of where all parts of the tractor are as well as your surroundings when operating so you aren't driving through your barn or backing into your fences
> 
> ...


Wow, thank you for such a detailed response!!!


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

maketo said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Finally, after months and months of searching and trying, we found a property in Central Virginia (about 40 min SW of Lynchburg) that will work for us. It is 33 acres that are mostly open but they are fenced and cross fenced as part of a conservation deal with the state (state fences and cross fences and drills a well for the owner and in return owner keeps cows in fenced areas provided by the state - all in an effort to protect local waterways). I don't mind the deal as I would like to be a part of a solution but I would also like to be able to use some of the land to grow some hay!
> 
> ...


The fencing IMHO could be a pain. Ask your extension agent what it takes to get rid of it and if he says can't, ask someone else.

For hills I'd stick with utility tractors vs row crop tractors as I feel they have a lower center of gravity. In Bedford is Boone tractor, they might be of help, generally a good selection of new and used tractors and some haying equipment. They deal in MF and New Holland tractors (NH bought Ford tractors, so parts and service is there too). Been a long time since I've been out there, that's what I remember. Don't know the JD dealer out there. With old tractors (going against my beloved IH Farmall 756) and hills, I want mechanical breaks. If the engine dies on a slope and it's happened with me, you want brakes. You want to avoid tractors with parking brakes that lock-up the tranny. Reason if you get on a hill and need to release the parking brake, sometimes the weight of the tractor has rolled into the brake mechanism (on my 756 it's a paw that goes into the gears) and it's a pain to move the tractor again. My brother has a new JD and has encountered the same thing with a similar arrangement. Honestly many of these tractor manufacturers IMHO never thought about hills when they designed their flat land tractors and IH was one of them! Whatever tractor you get, be sure it has a high/low gear range and has live or independent PTO. That means you can stop the forward/rev movement of the tractor without stopping the PTO. 35-50 PTO hp is sufficient for small square baling with older NH and JD balers. Round baler's and discbines drive you into another world of hp and expense that goes with them, including repairs. For your acreage, unless you just want the tractor (like my 756 at 70 PTO hp), you'll do fine with a 35-50 PTO hp Ford or MF tractor.

Weight - fluid filled rear tires work great and you can add weight from there. Good tread on the rears is handy for traction...????

As far as driving and using the tractor, not hard at all. Easy starts and stops, warmup and cool down, lower the rpms when starting the PTO so as not to jolt the driveline. Safe speed, common sense. No one needs to get killed on a farm tractor. Watch YouTube videos of tractor abuse and roll overs - you'll quickly see what not to do. Drunk driving a car is bad news. IMHO the same applies for running a tractor and it's equipment. You might be cutting hay with rain forecasted the following 10 days, a bad decision, but hopefully the decision was a sober one. A clear head when operating a tractor and equipment is a must.

Good luck,
Bill


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

I was in your shoes a few years ago, I did know I could purchase a roll of what looked like hay from anyone around here cheaper for many years vs what it cost me to buy the equipment... but.. I jumped in anyway as I too wanted to give my animals good quality hay and I do now... you will have a small wad of cash in the equipment, then their is the fertilizer & lime cost on top of that to consider, but as with me, it's my land and every time I spend a couple grand throwing stuff on the ground I'm improving MY land so it's all good....

You don't need nice shinny equipment, you need dependable older equipment, then later down the road if you feel the need you can upgrade.. I highly advise a front loader for what ever tractor you buy.... and round baler for me made the most sense, horses & cows don't care about the package size but I do and rounds are easy....

Good luck and keep us posted...


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

maketo said:


> Hello, thanks for the advice!  Yes, I agree and I understand about being cheaper to buy the hay. I am somewhat of a self-sufficiency oriented person so I feel that having a 33 acre farm and working to pay for a mortgage on it, I should at least be able to feed two horses off it . Just like you, I feel that is priceless. In addition, I have not had much luck with the hay when I buy it - often times it has things in it (and I understand mine may too) that I would not feed my horse. Where we are renting now we have neighbors that produce hay but really it is a codeword for mowing someone's field for whatever grows in it and giving the resulting bales to the cows. I have had people come to me and offer me that hay for our horses and I refuse it regularly - they then get upset and tell me my horses are spoiled. Well, I can see the fields (they are right next to the place I am in) and I can see what grows in them. Being a bit obsessed with details and control, I think I may be able to do better in terms of quality. Price is another topic and I understand it may not pay...


If you do don't know how to buy good hay, it will be even harder to make your own quality hay. It is a waste of your time and money to bale hay for 2 horses. If you bought 20+ year old equipment that works you are at $5000 or so add a tractor that you need anyway you at 15K to 20K .Add all the other factors you need to leave the haymaking to someone who has a clue. If I had your set-up I would run as many cows as possible build a building to store round bales and buy hay right out of the field, you will be money ahead. Good luck you will need it


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Beav said:


> It is a waste of your time and money to bale hay for 2 horses.


Not when you sell all the extra hay and deduct your expenses.

Making my own hay saves me about $1000/yr in hay, and last year after deducting my hay expenses, that cut $2,000 right off my tax bill. I already recovered $3,000 for myself before I've even sold a single bale. Last year I bought equipment so had more deductions. Once all the equipment's acquired it doesn't take many years to eventually pay for itself. And he'll need a tractor anyways to manage 33 acres.

Somebody's first introduction into hay is going to have some costly mistakes, this will need to be accounted for as well. Maybe bought an implement using bad judgement, or cut at a bad time and lost the crop.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

Hayjosh said:


> Not when you sell all the extra hay and deduct your expenses.
> 
> Making my own hay saves me about $1000/yr in hay, and last year after deducting my hay expenses, that cut $2,000 right off my tax bill. I already recovered $3,000 for myself before I've even sold a single bale. Last year I bought equipment so had more deductions. Once all the equipment's acquired it doesn't take many years to eventually pay for itself. And he'll need a tractor anyways to manage 33 acres.
> 
> Somebody's first introduction into hay is going to have some costly mistakes, this will need to be accounted for as well. Maybe bought an implement using bad judgement, or cut at a bad time and lost the crop.


I have a seen this all the time in my area 2 or 3 horse wonders buy a hobby farm and are going to make it pay for itself. They have no clue how to run equipment let alone maintain or purchase it. These folks are easy pickings for machinery jocks and other people with $$ in their eyes.So you bale 200 bales of hay for yourself a year. Costs you $1.50 cut rake and bale that $300 off your $1000 before figuring your time. The worst thing you can tell these people is it will work because they do not have the skill set to succeed. I would rather be honest and hurt their feelings than watching them fail and think I had a part in it


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Beav said:


> If you do don't know how to buy good hay, it will be even harder to make your own quality hay. It is a waste of your time and money to bale hay for 2 horses. If you bought 20+ year old equipment that works you are at $5000 or so add a tractor that you need anyway you at 15K to 20K .Add all the other factors you need to leave the haymaking to someone who has a clue. If I had your set-up I would run as many cows as possible build a building to store round bales and buy hay right out of the field, you will be money ahead. Good luck you will need it





Beav said:


> I have a seen this all the time in my area 2 or 3 horse wonders buy a hobby farm and are going to make it pay for itself. They have no clue how to run equipment let alone maintain or purchase it. These folks are easy pickings for machinery jocks and other people with $$ in their eyes.So you bale 200 bales of hay for yourself a year. Costs you $1.50 cut rake and bale that $300 off your $1000 before figuring your time. The worst thing you can tell these people is it will work because they do not have the skill set to succeed. I would rather be honest and hurt their feelings than watching them fail and think I had a part in it


I appreciate the candor. However, you are making too many assumptions here and frankly, you sound a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder 

Hay making is not rocket science and not everyone is stupid or easy pickings. The fact that I am here asking these questions should show you that I am slowly doing my research. Some of us are methodical and patient. I am 43 years old and grew up in the city, never seen a cow or a horse in my life. I got my first horse 8 years ago and I have ridden these guys in the deserts of south west Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, been to Wyoming on horseback surrounded by bears etc. etc. I am pretty sure I could outride you any day of the year. Funny that 'cause I bet you grew up in the country and 8 years ago when I was getting on a horse for the first time it could have easily been you telling me I would be easy pickings and that I shouldn't do it...

Having grown up in the city, I have had a dream all my life to own a farm. This is my chance at owning my own piece of land. Everywhere I have lived, I have grown my own food, even on an acre of land. People would laugh at me but then they would run to the grocery store to pay for an overpriced tomato that looked like plastic and was sprayed with who knows what.

In any case, I don't want to run cows, I came to haytalk to ask about making hay, not about buying hay. Wife is a veterinarian too and between the two of us we understand what constitutes good hay. A lot of what is sold around here isn't that good - I know the guy that supplies the co-op around here with hay and at $9/bale it ain't worth it.

Yes, I understand it will not be easy. I understand it will cost money. I understand it may never be worth it, monetarily speaking. But it is worth it to me. Thanks! 

p.s. I know your posts are well-meaning, it's just that I did not come here to be told not to do it, I came here to find out how to do it


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

maketo said:


> Hay making is not rocket science


Yes, you have a lot to learn. Not only is haying a science it is also a art. Tractors, equipment, and good intentions are actually a small part of the equation. Learning about atmospheric conditions and knowing when those conditions are just right to begin baling is a art.....along with knowing when it is time to stop. Learning about such things as stem moisture, leaf moisture, ground moisture and wind variability also factor into the science and art of baling hay.

Then, there is the art and science of growing a quality forage and learning how to keep it growing is another part of the equation. Planting and growing forages requires proper planning and the ability to implement that plan with successful results.

Good luck, and I look forward to hearing about your journey....for it will be measured in years.

Regards, Mike


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

maketo said:


> I appreciate the candor. However, you are making too many assumptions here and frankly, you sound a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder
> 
> Hay making is not rocket science and not everyone is stupid or easy pickings. The fact that I am here asking these questions should show you that I am slowly doing my research. Some of us are methodical and patient. I am 43 years old and grew up in the city, never seen a cow or a horse in my life. I got my first horse 8 years ago and I have ridden these guys in the deserts of south west Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, been to Wyoming on horseback surrounded by bears etc. etc. I am pretty sure I could outride you any day of the year. Funny that 'cause I bet you grew up in the country and 8 years ago when I was getting on a horse for the first time it could have easily been you telling me I would be easy pickings and that I shouldn't do it...
> 
> ...


It does not matter who is going to outride someone else. If you come asking for advice on which end of the tractor is which, it shouldn't be surprising to get some feedback that tells you it would be easier to not start. There's not better time to not start than now! Ha. It's a valid point whether that was your query or not. If you come asking how to jump off a bridge, people will probably advise that you don't before they eventually give you directions to the tallest local bridge. HOWEVER, you will get plenty of haying help here once you do dive in. Ultra basic questions or which $300,000 piece of equipment to buy. You will have to eventually come up with a few more goals before we get specific with help. If you're determined, you'll get the answers you need here.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Depending on when you wish to start putting your hay-making plan into place makes a big difference on how much money you will need to spend on your equipment. It seems like it is WAAAY easier to find good deals on better equipment when you have already overpaid on the first piece. XXXX Can't tell you how to avoid that except for surrounding yourself with local farmers/hay makers.

I bale @70 acres a year and the basics of my equipment could be bought for little more than 5kilobucks (that's not to say that I don't have stuff that I WANTED that cost more than that and I bought it...but I could have gotten by for much less.

To give example
Tractor Farmall 460 (with brand new tires and totally rebuilt engine) $3k
Sm Baler NH 269 $1K (has bales in excess of 10K bales without a hiccup)
Lg Baler NI 4865 ("stole" it at auction) $900
Rake NH 258 given to me for picking it up
Mower Gehl 880 mower conditioner $500 with new sections/guards...has been trouble free.

Don't get me wrong, I also have 5 more tractors, tedder, 3 more rakes, numerous rack wagons, windrow inverter, reconditioner, accumulator/grapples, barns, elevators, etc... Putting the hay on the ground and getting string around it is the only the beginning.

What I'm trying to illustrate is the basic buy-in is the cheap part...it's all the subsequent toys (mostly just "labor savers") that gets a guy like me. But once you have the basics, you can just keep your eye open for great deals on things such as cultipackers ($200 for mine), fertilizer buggies (one for $300 and another was free), subsequent tractors, you get the idea.

Anyway, to your original question of learning to drive a tractor, depending on your work schedule and you micro-neighborhood, a small town coffee shop is usually full of early-riser farmers that are "talking shop" every morning of the week/weekend and is a good place to become introduced to some. I know our coffee shops are a few tables seating 6-10 unrelated people (unlike supper hours where it's one family to a table) and sitting with a few farmers is easy as falling off a log...heck, you can't avoid the farmers if you wanted to. If you express interest, most are happy to pass their knowledge for no more than the satisfaction of having an eager audience. I've bought a few pieces of equipment across the coffee shop table that were not really "for sale" but I just asked if anyone knew where there was a such and such.

If you enjoy/crave the lifestyle and (like me) like to fill my free time with relaxing toiling...then cost-be-damned. Waste money rotting away in the city paying high rent, wasting money sitting on a bar stool, wasting money going out to eat every night, etc...VS "wasting" money by being quasi self-sufficient? It's a no-brainer for me and I wish you luck with yours.

I think a basic aptitude for things mechanical, not be afraid to work, and determination are the main ingredients for success (couple with an off-farm income to offset the cost of costing more to make the hay than to buy it) ...everything else, you can get from this site.

Mark

Don't take the above as any indication that I don't think you shouldn't do as you intend. If I only considered the $$$, I wouldn't have started making hay, I never regret doing it...other than the sickness it has become for me.


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

8350HiTech said:


> It does not matter who is going to outride someone else. If you come asking for advice on which end of the tractor is which, it shouldn't be surprising to get some feedback that tells you it would be easier to not start. There's not better time to not start than now! Ha. It's a valid point whether that was your query or not. If you come asking how to jump off a bridge, people will probably advise that you don't before they eventually give you directions to the tallest local bridge. HOWEVER, you will get plenty of haying help here once you do dive in. Ultra basic questions or which $300,000 piece of equipment to buy. You will have to eventually come up with a few more goals before we get specific with help. If you're determined, you'll get the answers you need here.


My point was to illustrate that just 8 years ago I could not differentiate one end of a horse from another. I applied myself, put in the time and I learned. I would say that at this point I have more knowledge of proper horsemanship than quite a few people who grew up around horses and are still getting hurt, bucked off, kicked and stepped on. I did not mean to boast but it does irritate a little bit when you get put into the category of easy pickings. I understand the financial aspect of the equation - probably doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars on equipment with no guarantee of success but heck, not everything is about money. If you saw the PS I put in that reply - I do understand that the opinion was given with good intentions. Doesn't make it sting any less


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

glasswrongsize said:


> Depending on when you wish to start putting your hay-making plan into place makes a big difference on how much money you will need to spend on your equipment. It seems like it is WAAAY easier to find good deals on better equipment when you have already overpaid on the first piece. XXXX Can't tell you how to avoid that except for surrounding yourself with local farmers/hay makers.
> 
> I bale @70 acres a year and the basics of my equipment could be bought for little more than 5kilobucks (that's not to say that I don't have stuff that I WANTED that cost more than that and I bought it...but I could have gotten by for much less.
> 
> ...


The sickness, hahah I like that, that's what growing food has become for me. Thank you for the advice about meeting the local farmers, I fully intend to utilize it (a few other folks on here have offered a similar theme). I intend to make friends wherever I can... Thank you for the encouragement too - you put in words how I feel about it all. Yes, I will keep the job that pays the mortgage but doesn't mean I have to buy all in and outsource EVERYTHING.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

maketo said:


> My point was to illustrate that just 8 years ago I could not differentiate one end of a horse from another. I applied myself, put in the time and I learned. I would say that at this point I have more knowledge of proper horsemanship than quite a few people who grew up around horses and are still getting hurt, bucked off, kicked and stepped on. I did not mean to boast but it does irritate a little bit when you get put into the category of easy pickings. I understand the financial aspect of the equation - probably doesn't make sense to spend thousands of dollars on equipment with no guarantee of success but heck, not everything is about money. If you saw the PS I put in that reply - I do understand that the opinion was given with good intentions. Doesn't make it sting any less


Is your "day job" schedule such that you'll have freedom to execute your hay making endeavor when the weather is right?


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## bluefarmer (Oct 10, 2010)

Buy you a tractor and bush hog (rotary cutter), not to be confused with a rotary mower!! Use it for a couple years to keep grass/ weeds mowed down and get experience. Vol had the best advice in my opinion. Build a good relationship with a farmer neighbor and be up front with him, tell him you don't know nuthin, and would like advice. If he tries to sell you something right away, watch him, he is likely to try and take advantage of you!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

^^thats the ticket....crawl before you walk, before long you'll be running. Welcome to haytalk, good luck, you'll need it.....in the meantIme, maybe you can help some of the members here when we have problems with horsey folk  just kiddin' 
YOLO


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

I don't know if you plan on doing the repairs yourself or not, but I think the best advice that I can give you is find a good equipment dealer; your equipment is only as good as the dealer that services it. At some point your equipment is going to breakdown. When looking at equipment it would be a good idea to have someone that is familiar with farm equipment with you. I speak from experience here; had I taken a mechanic to look at the baler I bought it would have saved me thousands of dollars.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

maketo said:


> I appreciate the candor. However, you are making too many assumptions here and frankly, you sound a bit like you have a chip on your shoulder
> 
> Hay making is not rocket science and not everyone is stupid or easy pickings. The fact that I am here asking these questions should show you that I am slowly doing my research. Some of us are methodical and patient. I am 43 years old and grew up in the city, never seen a cow or a horse in my life. I got my first horse 8 years ago and I have ridden these guys in the deserts of south west Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, been to Wyoming on horseback surrounded by bears etc. etc. I am pretty sure I could outride you any day of the year. Funny that 'cause I bet you grew up in the country and 8 years ago when I was getting on a horse for the first time it could have easily been you telling me I would be easy pickings and that I shouldn't do it...
> 
> ...


Considering I have never owned a horse only a pony when I was 8 I am sure you could out ride me and if I wanted to ride I would ask someone who knows horses if I was going to buy one I am not the one asking for advice. If owning horse qualifies you to bale hay you are no different then the horse guys in my area telling me I don't have a clue how to grow hay yet I have been involved since I was 10 I'm 58. I am not telling what to do I was trying to save you a lot of time money and mental anguish. I have watched many city slickers buy their dream 5 or 10 acre ranch and when the first tax bill is adjusted from AG to residential they crap there pants because the tax bill doubles or triples.I live 35 miles from downtown Chicago so I see this all the time. Since baling is not rocket science IYO and think I have a chip on my shoulder I wish you well. Beware the one who agree with you he will be the first one in your pocket.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

maketo said:


> Hay making is not rocket science


Well...I am a scientist...and an equine professional...and this probably couldn't be further from the truth. It's as much science as it is art. The science is easy to learn, the art--however--is what takes time and experience. That's why I look up to so many of the guys here because they've mastered both and are willing and eager to share that with those willing to ask and learn.

It's a steep learning curve and I'm still there at the bottom trying to climb it too, and I do have a farm background, except I never had to make decisions. At first glance, it looks like a guy just picks a day to go run a mower through the field, then comes back the next day and teds, maybe rakes the next day and then bales. What lies beneath the surface is what was guiding those decisions, when he was considering the heat units, what the wind, humidity, cloud cover, dew point were going to be like, and then best time of day to perform each function. Your grass will vary in quality (and palatability to the animal) depending what part of the day it was mowed, for instance.

I'm still convinced there's a little bit of voodoo magic to it too  There's a few farmers in my area who do a lot of hay, and they're superbly nice, helpful guys. One of them does some custom mowing for me and he was mentioning he wanted to start on my field the next day. I said 'did you see they're calling for rain?' and with all the confidence in the world he just shook his head and said, 'it's not going to rain.'

To this day I'm still saying 'DAMN! How did he do that!' because guess what...it never rained


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## 32-0-0 (May 30, 2017)

Here's some more unsolicited advice...keep a good log book of anything of importance. I use a weekly calendar book...I have one for the current year and one for he next year as well.

I log events such as repairs, irrigation dates, rainfall amounts, cutting dates, raking dates, baling dates, fertilizer application dates, fertilizer blend, etc. I keep all of the calendar books and refer back to them often.

And I use the calendars as a planner as well...i have learned that as I grow older, I might be a little wiser, but unfortunately also more forgetful....calendar books help to keep things on schedule.


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

Are you going to do small squares, or rounds?


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

8350HiTech said:


> Is your "day job" schedule such that you'll have freedom to execute your hay making endeavor when the weather is right?


Yes, I am a software engineer who works from home!


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Wethay said:


> Are you going to do small squares, or rounds?


Hopefully small squares unless you tell me that it makes more sense to do round bales?


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

32-0-0 said:


> Here's some more unsolicited advice...keep a good log book of anything of importance. I use a weekly calendar book...I have one for the current year and one for he next year as well.
> 
> I log events such as repairs, irrigation dates, rainfall amounts, cutting dates, raking dates, baling dates, fertilizer application dates, fertilizer blend, etc. I keep all of the calendar books and refer back to them often.
> 
> And I use the calendars as a planner as well...i have learned that as I grow older, I might be a little wiser, but unfortunately also more forgetful....calendar books help to keep things on schedule.


Thank you very much! I am somewhat obsessed with these details and I do what you suggested for any house/property I purchase, any car I purchase, any major device I purchase (which is not often) etc. etc. This way I know what happened/happens when, how often etc. etc. When I started growing food for ourselves, I did the same - over time you kind of get into it with the weather and you don't need a calendar but when you are new to the area it sure helps


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Beav said:


> Considering I have never owned a horse only a pony when I was 8 I am sure you could out ride me and if I wanted to ride I would ask someone who knows horses if I was going to buy one I am not the one asking for advice. If owning horse qualifies you to bale hay you are no different then the horse guys in my area telling me I don't have a clue how to grow hay yet I have been involved since I was 10 I'm 58. I am not telling what to do I was trying to save you a lot of time money and mental anguish. I have watched many city slickers buy their dream 5 or 10 acre ranch and when the first tax bill is adjusted from AG to residential they crap there pants because the tax bill doubles or triples.I live 35 miles from downtown Chicago so I see this all the time. Since baling is not rocket science IYO and think I have a chip on my shoulder I wish you well. Beware the one who agree with you he will be the first one in your pocket.


I think if you go back to my reply to you, I did say that I understood you had good intentions. I am not out to pick a fight. I also wanted to use the horse example to show you that not every person coming out of the city is an idiot chicken ripe for plucking  - some of us are methodical and do their research and try to ask questions before showing up with a wad of cash to throw at some snake oil salesman . Thank you for all the advice, it goes into the pool with the rest for me to study!

P.S. By the way, I think the horse business is the most crooked out there. I think many horse traders, trainers etc. etc. are far worse than the worst used car salesmen. I understand what you are trying to say, I got taken once or twice at the beginning of my horse journey. But, I think in the overall picture I would still not have wanted to abandon my passion because of a few rotten apples.

P.P.S. I hope you keep on dispensing your advice to me when I post on here!


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Hayjosh said:


> Well...I am a scientist...and an equine professional...and this probably couldn't be further from the truth. It's as much science as it is art. The science is easy to learn, the art--however--is what takes time and experience. That's why I look up to so many of the guys here because they've mastered both and are willing and eager to share that with those willing to ask and learn.
> 
> It's a steep learning curve and I'm still there at the bottom trying to climb it too, and I do have a farm background, except I never had to make decisions. At first glance, it looks like a guy just picks a day to go run a mower through the field, then comes back the next day and teds, maybe rakes the next day and then bales. What lies beneath the surface is what was guiding those decisions, when he was considering the heat units, what the wind, humidity, cloud cover, dew point were going to be like, and then best time of day to perform each function. Your grass will vary in quality (and palatability to the animal) depending what part of the day it was mowed, for instance.
> 
> ...


Hello! Yes, I did not mean "is not rocket science" in an offensive way, just meant it as "most of us can learn it with proper guidance" . I am scientifically trained too, with advanced degrees. I would not have gotten those degrees if I didn't think they were necessary for me to do what I want to do. Same goes with making hay - I am hoping I can master it and my first step is here - if I was really dumb  I would just have run out to the first tractor dealership, spent $50,000 on all the equipment (to make it even worse, the money would have been borrowed with interest - yikes!) and... You go read all those magazines like Hobby Farms or Mother Earth News or Grit with all the shiny tractor ads with the nice young lady driving the latest Kubota (and then you realize it is like buying a heavy duty truck price wise!!) and you haven't even planted anything hahah

But, this is why this forum exists and why hopefully you and the rest of the gang can help guide me

through my initial blunders 

Fortunately, I am the kind of person who prefers a good wood stove, home grown food and the late 1990s/early 2000s "box" Fords.... Until now the biggest property I ever owned was 5 acres of hard soil in central TX west of I-35 and there I did the best I could with it - grow veggies. Now I finally have a shot at my own "real" farm....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I'll give you another reality check......if you went to your local dealer and bought the Eq to make hay on 30 acres, it would be more like 80k  and you're still gonna wish you had spent more.....


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

maketo said:


> Hopefully small squares unless you tell me that it makes more sense to do round bales?


IMO Sm Squares give you better quality hay and a sm square baler requires less hp from a tractor.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

P.S. By the way, I think the horse business is the most crooked out there. I think many horse traders, trainers etc. etc. are far worse than the worst used car salesmen. I understand what you are trying to say, I got taken once or twice at the beginning of my horse journey. But, I think in the overall picture I would still not have wanted to abandon my passion because of a few rotten apples.

P.P.S. I hope you keep on dispensing your advice to me when I post on here!

REALLY YOU HAVE NOT MET ANY MACHINERY JOCKS YET HAVE YOU


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Beav said:


> P.S. By the way, I think the horse business is the most crooked out there. I think many horse traders, trainers etc. etc. are far worse than the worst used car salesmen. I understand what you are trying to say, I got taken once or twice at the beginning of my horse journey. But, I think in the overall picture I would still not have wanted to abandon my passion because of a few rotten apples.
> 
> P.P.S. I hope you keep on dispensing your advice to me when I post on here!
> 
> REALLY YOU HAVE NOT MET ANY MACHINERY JOCKS YET HAVE YOU


I will admit freely - no. But if they are like the horse trainers and traders, I am ready...Well, not really. I don't know much about tractor engines and implements. Thank God I can post photos and info on here


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Your going about it correctly! The folks here made my first official year of hay production go pretty dang smooth with answers to my questions. 
Im no rookie to tractors or most things mechanical, but I was very green to hay making!
Once I figured out the knotters on the baler I have it was game on!
In all my years of handling hay I have yet to pick up bales as nice as the ones I made on all of my second cut. (Took that long to get the baler and tractor speeds correct) now I cant wait for next year.
My biggest issue is logistics ... getting the hay to the barn. My wagons all suck to tow over 20mph and my closest field is 7 miles away..


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

maketo said:


> I will admit freely - no. But if they are like the horse trainers and traders, I am ready...Well, not really. I don't know much about tractor engines and implements. Thank God I can post photos and info on here


You can rely on the people here, they are a great bunch! Some are ornery, but all are well meaning


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## Westernstar (Jun 27, 2017)

Couple thoughts from someone who has taught himself hay making, at least partly anyway. 
I much prefer to buy equipment from a farmer than a dealer. Lots of times you'll get a pile of spare parts, manuals, list of things recently replaced etc. Also at least here it saves paying sales tax. I've also called former owners for advice with a problem. Also AuctionTime is a great source for cheap deals. It's the other end of the spectrum as far as knowing history. You can search auction results to see what equipment has sold for in the past. It's far cheaper usually than dealer price. 
Buy a moisture meter, it'll keep ya honest. Also I wouldn't bale without my aftermarket moisture meter in the chamber. It sure helps with learning a field and the variables to be able to watch it all the time. 
I'd consider a fairly new tractor, Kubota gets my vote. When I first looked any worn out piece of junk with a loader was $10k minimum. I bought a 3500 hr 90 hp Kubota for $22400 off AuctionTime. Definitely depends on local market prices and mechanics available. I do a lot of my own work, it's hard to get someone to come out when you're broken down in the field and should be running. 
Equipment adds up tho. I now own $140k worth built up in the last 5 yrs and this is the first year I've taken money out but I started with nothing. I've been lucky and never had a really expensive breakdown. I bought the best I could afford and upgraded as fast as possible. 
Good luck


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

I figure that if a guy buys equipment it's his choice what he gets and how he takes care of it. There is something to be said about brand new equipment, you have a warranty, know the history and most likely payments. Assuming that you are going to look at a older used baler, depending on dealer support, I would stick with New Holland or a John Deere. I would be concerned about parts availability of the other brands. I run a green baler but have nothing bad to say about a New Holland. That said I would think a 300 series deere would most likely meet your needs and part shouldn't be a problem for years to come.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Maketo you have been open and put yourself out as willing to learn so no doubt in my mind you will learn to make the hay you want to feed. I have watched several others ask basic questions and make good hay with advise from members here. Not much I can add to the finer points your going to need to learn as my climate is so different in my world. More the question in my mind is how fast you will get to where you want to be.

In my option the more locals hay makers you can be friends with the faster you will see what works and dose not. I am forgetting some of the details you gave,as have had a 3 year old grandson to help me all day.The cows needed much feeding today,some of my fun since he is not afraid of cows. If there is someone local making hay that is of the quality you are looking to make your much closer to the information to make it all work for you. If none are hopefully it was just conditions where poor this season.

The equipment operation is something once the basics are ingrained in you it is just practice and keeping you mind on the job at hand. But some people are naturally smother than others with equipment and hopefully your in that group.

As so many pointed out it will not make you rich,so if it is not fun what is the use. So do your research and have fun.


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## shortrow2 (Sep 25, 2017)

Beav said:


> If you do don't know how to buy good hay, it will be even harder to make your own quality hay. It is a waste of your time and money to bale hay for 2 horses. If you bought 20+ year old equipment that works you are at $5000 or so add a tractor that you need anyway you at 15K to 20K .Add all the other factors you need to leave the haymaking to someone who has a clue. If I had your set-up I would run as many cows as possible build a building to store round bales and buy hay right out of the field, you will be money ahead. Good luck you will need it


Lighten up Beav, he was just asking for advice.


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## Thumbtack (Jun 18, 2012)

maketo I started out withe 5 acres and some people say I am a hobby farmer and that is true but don't give up with your ideas and what you want to do. I got started when the gentleman that was cutting and baling for me made me a deal on some older equipment. It wasn't the best or prettiest of equipment but it worked and got me started. I have been farming my little acreage for about 10 years now and I love growing something and seeing the outcome with the quality hay I produce. I would recommend an inline baler(hesston or Massey) you can run them with 35 to 50 hp. tractor and they follow directly behind you and really are easy to maneuver in smaller fields. Everybody on here is willing to help and give advice on any issues. Good Luck and keep us posted.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

The options are endless when it comes to running a hay operation, be it small or large.

Take a look at the example of My Daughter's Pony who started out to make a bit of hay. Look at al the posts he has made and the learning he has achieved with many helpful posts from HT folk.

He has a low-powered tractor without hydraulics, an old IH sickle mower and an engine-functioned NH 66 baler ( engine-functioned balers were used often when towed small square balers were introduced to reduce the tractor HP requirements). Every bit of his gear could find a place in a museum but he is proud of it and rightly so, it works, makes hay and gives him pleasure. Heck I have had pleasure reading of his trials tribulations and triumphs, reminiscing (enjoyable recollection) about my own past experiences with old hay gear. MDP has coaxed his gear to make some hay for his daughter's pony, what a wonderful experience for MDP and his family who have joined in. What a wonderful trip down memory lane for many of our HT community who have joined in with advice and words encouragement, and just read of his adventures.

My first crop of hay in my own right was 3 acres and grew 600 small rounds that I sold. I cut and raked the hay using an Allis Chalmers WD tricycle tractor with 6 foot mid-mounted Bamford mower (English) and an IH basket rake. Had a contract operator bale them.

Slowly grew more and more until baling about 35,000 pa of small squares including contract work to pay for my toys.

It is not all about money but also the enjoyment of farming and actually producing something from your land. A very good friend of mine is an accountant and everything with his farm has to be justified in $$$$$ terms. I feel he is so concerned about the $ that he loses the enjoyment of farming. Every time we meet he is lamenting the negatives of farming and will not spend any money on equipment unless he is compelled to, then laments that too. The hip pocket nerve on an accountant is hyper-sensitive.

If everything comes to $ then why would anyone start out playing golf, I do not know of any who made money from the start, and why would most continue to play? Most golf players will never make a profit at the game, but they claim to enjoy it. I personally cannot understand enjoyment from the very frustrating game, or why play a game that the better you get at it, the less you get to play in each game.

OK, golf can be enjoyed for the joy of company, of the challenge to yourself and the reward of improvement, the joy in owning better and better gear, and the camaraderie of fellow golfers.

Hay making is the same, as you improve your knowledge, improve your gear, smell newly mown hay that you have made, challenge the elements, overcome the many and various trials thrown at you, revel in the outdoors, look upon a nice stack of hay that you know you played a part in making and getting in, the camaraderie of others who make hay by not necessarily propping up a bar at the 19th hole but sharing on HT and any other like community you may choose to join.

If at any stage you do not have sufficient personal (financial returns are different) reward to continue, you can stop making hay and do nothing or something else.

Maketo, I say, nay shout: "GO FOR IT",

make your mistakes, take risks, move on from mistakes, revel in triumphs, learn from your triumphs, mistakes and others, share your experiences and seek help on HT. There are plenty of members here who will give you advice and encouragement and will enjoy reading of your experiences.


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Ray 54 said:


> Maketo you have been open and put yourself out as willing to learn so no doubt in my mind you will learn to make the hay you want to feed. I have watched several others ask basic questions and make good hay with advise from members here. Not much I can add to the finer points your going to need to learn as my climate is so different in my world. More the question in my mind is how fast you will get to where you want to be.
> 
> In my option the more locals hay makers you can be friends with the faster you will see what works and dose not. I am forgetting some of the details you gave,as have had a 3 year old grandson to help me all day.The cows needed much feeding today,some of my fun since he is not afraid of cows. If there is someone local making hay that is of the quality you are looking to make your much closer to the information to make it all work for you. If none are hopefully it was just conditions where poor this season.
> 
> ...


Thank for the advice! I found a local farmer who is willing to teach me the ropes and work my land for an even split. We got some cover crop into the ground (rye) and I decided to rest the land for a year before we go at it. I will till in the winter cover crop and then let it sit, plant a summer cover crop, till it in and take it from there. I figured patience and treating the land well pays it rewards down the road?


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Coondle said:


> The options are endless when it comes to running a hay operation, be it small or large.
> 
> Take a look at the example of My Daughter's Pony who started out to make a bit of hay. Look at al the posts he has made and the learning he has achieved with many helpful posts from HT folk.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much Sir! You can bet I am going to give it a shot


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

maketo said:


> Thank for the advice! I found a local farmer who is willing to teach me the ropes and work my land for an even split. We got some cover crop into the ground (rye) and I decided to rest the land for a year before we go at it. I will till in the winter cover crop and then let it sit, plant a summer cover crop, till it in and take it from there. I figured patience and treating the land well pays it rewards down the road?


What is your land doing for you while it's resting? Why not just seed your hay and get it fertilized so you can get on your way and get it productive?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well&#8230;something else that might need considering, in my county at least you get to pay property taxes on equipment, so that needs figured in on exactly what your break even will be.

See it all the time here, price of hay goes up so people either buy some equipment cause they are going to save a ton of money over buying it from one of those dumb farmers or they buy a lot of equipment and are gonna make a lot of hay and make a killing in the hay market as anybody can do it. The former usually just quit trying and go back to buying hay, the latter usually have some real nice equipment for sale sooner rather than later. Although you are ahead of the curve as you say you work from home, that helps a ton compared to somebody who can only make hay on weekends or after work.

When I would get home from Kindergarten and go help make hay, all I could do was roll bales across the mow or across the wagon, I'm 48 now and still routinely get surprised at least once a year. Either I choose to believe the wrong professional liar when it comes to the forecast, or it dries faster than I thought possible given the conditions or it just won't dry given what the conditions were supposed to be according to said paid professional liar.


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## labdwakin (Jun 21, 2016)

Well, the first thing with an engine that I ever drove was a 1959 Ford 641 diesel tractor pulling a John Deere 660 bar rake. I've been involved in making hay off and on for 34 years now and it can be one of the most rewarding and one of the most heartbreaking things to do. There is very little to compare with seeing a big stack of hay that's a nice pale almost pastel green and smells just perfectly sweet knowing that your effort was what did it.

HOWEVER... too much self confidence will leave you wishing you'd had more humility (been there done that), and too much timidity will make getting they hay up an agonizing process. Several people here have mentioned all the things to learn about making hay and I think Hayjosh was obliquely referring to the almost sorcery involved in knowing the weather patterns where you make hay.

I used to install, test and troubleshoot telecom equipment (foolish young man that I was, I left the farm soon as I could then just ended up coming home) that handled in excess of 100,000 telephone lines or sometimes fiber optic equipment. People like me all have one thing in common, we have very little patience for people with massive amounts of formal education that tend to act like just because what we do doesn't require years of that same education, we are stupid. Things like making hay, building houses, building barns, building fence or fully understanding animal nutrition are NEVER as simple as they appear to be. Stay humble, and always remember that the farmer or carpenter or stone mason or logger that you're talking to also has an education, just not one that involved a degree. I've been in the "professional" world and have no wish to return to it.

You're going to find as you go along, that total control of a hay patch is very very very time and labor intensive. I've seen horses walk right past pure bermuda hay to eat mixed grass hay that was put up right.

You're on the right track with doing your research, but as some of these guys have said, there are some things about making hay that not only can't be put in words, they only come with LONG experience. Just when you think you know what's going on, it throws you a screwball and you swing hard on it then get the bat almost vibrated out of your hands when you hit it.

SDD had a really good suggestion about getting a tractor and brush hog to start with. You might also consider a rock rake and maybe a pto tiller for your garden patch. A front end loader will be really handy and so will at least one set of hydraulic remotes. Each piece of hay equipment is going to have its foibles and eccentricities to get used to. We still have that Ford 641 tractor, and it seems like at least once a year I learn something else about it that I didn't know. Hay equipment can be dangerous, frustrating and expensive.... and still be something you're really proud of. LOL

All that being said, be careful and have fun with it.


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

Hayjosh said:


> What is your land doing for you while it's resting? Why not just seed your hay and get it fertilized so you can get on your way and get it productive?


I figured rushing is the enemy - would rather take it slow, read up on things, maybe take some time to find some proper equipment without breaking the bank (people who buy under pressure always pay more), play with said equipment and get proficient and then get into the hay making!


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## maketo (Jul 31, 2017)

labdwakin said:


> Well, the first thing with an engine that I ever drove was a 1959 Ford 641 diesel tractor pulling a John Deere 660 bar rake. I've been involved in making hay off and on for 34 years now and it can be one of the most rewarding and one of the most heartbreaking things to do. There is very little to compare with seeing a big stack of hay that's a nice pale almost pastel green and smells just perfectly sweet knowing that your effort was what did it.
> 
> HOWEVER... too much self confidence will leave you wishing you'd had more humility (been there done that), and too much timidity will make getting they hay up an agonizing process. Several people here have mentioned all the things to learn about making hay and I think Hayjosh was obliquely referring to the almost sorcery involved in knowing the weather patterns where you make hay.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the very thoughtful post Sir. I am happy I posted on this forum!


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

I have to say that there is a lot of good advice on here. I want to add a few thoughts for you to think about. First thing is allergies. If you or a family member has them, I would recommend getting a tractor with a cab, and with ac that works. Some older tractors may need the system gone through to get it working correctly.

I certainly agree with the idea of being friends with neighbors and getting to know people close. Sweat equity is worth something for experience, use of a machine, or just good stories!

As far as a tractor goes, there is quite a range. I recommend a tractor with 2 hydraulic remotes, numerous reasons. I personally would look for one that has both 1000 and 540 pto, but not necessary. The three point, a category 2. The front assist part is nice, but not a have to. A 2 wheel drive turns shorter anyway. I recommend cast weights for the back tires, as fluid rusts the rim over time.

I think it is great you are going to try this haying. There is always a lesson, and when you feed it and see what you did wrong or right. You might consider this. I understand cutting hay is critical to get good feed value, but more so, is baling. You might see if you can hire your cutting done to start with, and concentrate on baling. Everyone can cut hay, but baling is more tedious, to make nice hay. I would recommend a nice old New Holland 258 bar rake or close to. This will speed up the drying process. They work well, and being ground drive, you rake less dirt into your hay. Set the teeth about an inch off the ground on a hard surface and adjust from there. Remember a rake is not supposed to be used as a harrow!

As far as a baler, this might get a lot of attention, but I would go with a 4 ft wide round baler. A small square baler is nice yes, but when the hay is ready, and you are out there inventing new words, kicking tires, and throwing tools, when the knotter keeps missing bales, you might think different! Most of the time they work. You can make the round bales whatever height you want, and no knotters to deal with. Several makes of them. A deeper discussion can continue about this.

I am a fan of a Ford 5610. Nice all-around tractor, get one with the canopy for some shade. Kubota makes some nice tractors, for more money. If you need the cab, I would go with a 7710 II Ford, because it takes some power to run the ac.

I am sure glad to see people trying this. I sure will answer anything you might ask. Lastly I would recommend a skid steer and a tractor. Loaders can be tough on a tractor, a lot of abuse can happen. A tractor with no loader, is typically going to be in nicer shape. A skid steer is built for loader work and can get in small places. I am sure a lot of guys can share about this thought. Remember the tractor will have a three point, so for moving the rounds, you could just use a 3 point bale spear.

So many ideas! I got some of them down!

You can learn a lot by just going on YouTube and watching some people, listening, and seeing how to operate, right and wrong! I highly recommend going for some test drives, whether on a lot or private sale. Buying equipment is a game by itself. Go on tractor house and use it to get a ball park idea on a price for something before the checkbook comes out!


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