# sickle bar question



## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

http://kalamazoo.craigslist.org/grd/5720001062.html

Would this work with a farmall 200 or BN?


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Power shouldn't be a problem but the need for hydraulics might be. Does a 200 have hydraulics?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't think so.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

How about this one? I can't tell if this one needs hydraulics.

http://battlecreek.craigslist.org/grd/5697550766.html


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP,

Should work just fine, even if you have to manual fold cutter bar (which ours did), just watch your fingers.

Larry

Now that I think more about it, it was a Oliver sickle bar mower, that had a manual (rope pull) raising system. :huh: We did not use long, when back to a three point hitch setup verses a trailer type sickle bar mower.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> How about this one? I can't tell if this one needs hydraulics.
> 
> http://battlecreek.craigslist.org/grd/5697550766.html


Needs hydraulics, mentions "doesn't come with cylinder".

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

The second link mentions nothing about hydraulics


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> The second link mentions nothing about hydraulics


MDP

Second link appears to be a 'belly' or mid-mount mower (sickle blade sticks out between front and rear tire, when mounted on tractor). Or a funny looking three point hitch. First one mentions cylinder. 

Almost any mower you are going to find/look at will provably need hydraulics, might want to consider adding if you don't already have to one of the tractors. I am thinking down the road, you might upgrade to an old NH469 or equivalent, that you would have to cut maybe in 1st gear with heavy hay, but would also need a hydraulic cylinder hook up.

The Oliver that we had, I don't ever remember seeing many sold later in life, so they maybe as scarce as hen's teeth. You had to pull a rope that when around the pto, that would lift the cutter bar, as soon as you let off the rope cutter bar would return to the ground. Steering with one hand (no power steering on the Farmall H) and pulling the rope with the other, wasn't conducive it seems, we only had that setup maybe 1-2 years. A positive, was we could hook/run the conditioner right behind the mower (condition one round behind the cutter bar), but it was a PIA, trying to back up.

Larry


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm thinking the second link is just a 3 point hitch mower flipped upside down. The mower on that second link would not need hydraulics I have one of those mowers. If you need help maybe you should send a picture of your tractor especially the rear. Most old 200 Farmall tractors would not have a 3 point hitch unless it was converted at a later date and that is rare so most likely your tractor has two point, or no lift hitch at all. If it does not have three point you would have to determine what type of hitch it has. The common unit would be a fast hitch mower for that tractor or maybe an old semi Mount that bolts to The Swinging drawbar hanger.


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## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

This should work if your looking for a mower designed for your tractor. It's a bit of a drive though!
https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ank/grd/5699884797.html


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

If the tractor has 2 point quick hitch, it has hydraulics....right? I haven't seen too many 200s, but I think if it was equipped with a quick hitch it also had a remote (or maybe two, one of them being mid-mount remote under the fuel tank. Pony, if you will take a photo of the rear and/or take a pic of the steering wheel area especially the right side.

I don't think the BNs had hyd and I'm too lazy to look on tracordata

73, Mark


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

There is an old horse drawn sickle bar mower for sale here in Maine, but I am thinking that drive would be even worse for you. Only $250 however!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll take a picture and post as soon as I can get outside. It does have hydraulics and I believe it's a 2 point. I'll be back with pictures.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Hope these help.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Any info on what type of bar would work best with this setup would be great. My price range is $500-$800 if that helps.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Any info on what type of bar would work best with this setup would be great. My price range is $500-$800 if that helps.


MDP,

Here is a MoCo that your tractor could run, lighter hay, heavy might have to run slow.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/10644871/new-holland-467

If you are stuck on price/budget, here is a sickle bar, less than maybe 200 miles from you, that is a two point hook up (a little engineering on your part, if it hooked to a John Deere, it will hook to an IH, IMHO), that could very possibly work and is in what appears to be great shape. If it was a three point, I would bet the price would be a lot higher.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/9334135/new-holland-27

Larry


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well your tractors are 60 plus years old which there is nothing wrong with using stuff that old (I do too), but when you farm with stuff that old you need to pick a sickle that will easily work on either tractor. If one tractor breaks down you have a back-up tractor to use. Hay is time sensitive as you have already learned.

Your200 has hydraulics the B likely does not, but who cares I would not want hydraulics on a plain ole sickle anyway.

1) My first choice would be the McCormick/Deering/International models that bolt to the u-shaped drawbar on any of the vintage Farmall tractors. No hydraulics needed. Easily and quickly change around to either of your tractors. Easily recongniziable by the center caster wheel. All the easy user benefits of a mounted mower. Parts are still available and these can be bought dirt cheap (often times less than $200). Go 7' size

2) My 2nd choice would be any of the John Deere models that bolt to the tractor and also have the center pivot caster wheel (note: these need to be the bolt up kind not the rockshaft mount kind like pictured in one of your inquiries). Original JD manuals even showed how to bolt the JD mower to the vintage u-shaped Farmall drawbars. You may have to make a couple of the adaptor plates to bolt to Farmall as the odds of finding the JD mower with plates you needed are long but these are rather easy to fab up. These can be bought rather cheap but being JD your will pay a litt more than the similar IH mower. Parts are out there. Go 7' size. Again all the benefits of mounted mower.

3) New Idea 30A, 30B, 25? tow type sickles. Easy to hook to tractor as they are pull type and no hydraulics are needed so it is as simple as dropping in a pin. Only downside is this mower is tow type which some feel are harder to mow with. Can be bought dirt cheap (often less than $250) and parts are available.

4) New Holland 452. Gold standard of sickle bar cutter bar but packaged in a tow type unit. You will pay a premium for one of these on name yet have a less than handy tow type model as again most do not like tow type sickles.

Maybe) That NH 27 posted in the previous post might be worth looking into, but I am not personally familiar with that particular model. I never new NH made one similar to the design of the mounted MCCormick-IH type or mounted JD type with caster wheel. If it is compatible with your tractors though that is likely a very good mower and in Michigan to boot. All the benefits of the mounted mower.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Does that NH 27 attach to the tractor with a pin? It looks like I pull it... I see the pto shaft. It doesn't look like a 2 point.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

A 2 pt style mower is only compatible with the fast hitch on the Farmall 200. Will not work on the B at all.

That NH 27 I believe simply bolts to the u-shaped drawbar with 2 or 3 bolts and would work on either tractor simililar in design to the MCormick-IH or JD models I also mentioned in previous thread although you will have to research the model numbers yourself but models something like (21V, 23V 25V ring a bell for the IH and #5 for the JD and even a select few of the 350 were bolt on kind). The single caster wheel carries some of the weight but not all just like the IH or JD models. It is a mounted mower which most prefer to mow with, but these caster mounted models only attach with 2 or 3 bolts so the relatively quick to put on and take off the tractor. Some of the really old mounted mowers (especially the side tractor mounts) were more tiresome to put on and take off the tractor.

That said, I have never seen a NH 27 up close but it is likely a better mower than the IH or JD if it will work and $650 is not unreasonable if it is in decent shape. I know the IH or the JD models with a caster wheel will work and can be bought cheaper in the $200 (IH) to $400 range (JD) again the JD will need to be the bolt on kind not the rock shaft mount kind or the later 3 pt hitch kind.

..


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks for all the info.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Why is the NH 27 so cheap compared to other NH bars? I'm guessing because it's older? Is it a decent bar? Parts available? I want to make sure it's a decent piece of equipment. If I'm better off getting something twice as expensive I might.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Most people want 3 point mount these days so the NH 450 and NH 451 and to a lesser extent the Massey Furgeson Dynabalance sell for a premium due to that. These models are also sought more so for mowing creek banks, ditch banks, cause they can mow at any bar angle. Not relevant to mowing hay at all but makes em worth more as they are more than a 1 trick pony.

Personally I want make sure that claimed NH 27 is indeed a New Holland as to me I would have guessed McCormick International model 27V which may be sorta what you need anyway.

I have only ever seen McCormick-IH and JD mowers with that caster wheel myself....but I am far from a sickle expert. I do own a New Idea model 30A pull type sickle but have not used it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/10683199/new-holland-404

Opinions on this?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Would the 200 power the 404?


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I would say the 200 or the BN would power it but that is not a cutter. That is a conditioner only for use after cutting with the plain ole sickle mower (and more than I would personally pay).


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks good to know!


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

As for parts: I would say you could about get any of the most common parts you need if you stick with the common brands like New Holland, New Idea, MCormick IH, John Deere, Massey, and even Ford.

Webbs Sickle Service and Shoup will be your friends when it comes to affordable parts.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I am leaning towards the 27. I will probably look for other units closer or anything else comparable price wise.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Prior to New Holland inventing the Haybine, There were a few select sickle mowers that had an auxiliary PTO shaft out the back of them and you hooked those type of conditioners to them and could pull them right behind the mower at the same time you were mowing if you had a tractor big enough which you kinda do not for the tandem pull deal, but you could pull it and power it by itself (which is exactly what people did who owned mowers without that auxiliary PTO shaft or had little tractors)


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Oh I see. Yeah my tractors are not that big..


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

That so called 27 (whether it be a New Holland or actually a MCormick IH) looks to be in good shape by pictures but pictures is very hard to tell condition.

If it works like I think it does it should be a matter of simply bolting it to your u-shaped drawbar on either farmall with 2 or 3 bolts and connecting the PTO shaft. Course you can easily raise and lower your u-shaped drawbar on the 200 but that height is fixed on the BN as the u-shaped dawbar is rigid on those. That is likely where the lever on the mower comes in to playt which is to adjust height to different tractors (without the need for any hydraulics at all).

When searching for pics on internet make sure to include the Farmall C and Super C in your search as both of those are basically older 200's


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

You search for sickle bars by looking for the tractor?


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

No not necessarily. But when you search pictures and YouTube you can see what others are using behind a given tractor and how it bolts up. There are a whole lot more Farmall C and Super C out there than there are 200's for pics and videos. The C's will not have fast hitch on them like the 200 though but the mowers you are looking at do not mount using the fast hitch so irrelevant

I am betting that 27 mower is a McCormick-Deering (International Harvestor) 27V mower instead of a New Holland but I have been wrong before....Regardless it is still worth looking at as it will mount to either of your tractors and the brand being wrong could be a negioating point for a cheaper price.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I think you are correct. I Google NH 27 and nothing came up. Also I found a NH 27 I thought it was a forage blower or something. It seemed odd because I doubted NH would have two different NH 27's. Thanks again for the help. I'd be lost without this site!


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I am thinking the older NH model number was 47


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I believe the 27V may have been the final evolution of that caster type mower by IH which in my opinion is the ideal mower for your tractors. Updated wobbler drive instead of the older pitman stick drive.

Here is a terrible video of one of the much older McCormick Deering's on a Farmall h. This is an older mower (21V, 23V, or 25V????) than the 27V but it mounts very very similar. They all simply bolts to the horse show drawbar on the old Farmalls....so rather easy and quickj to install on primitive type tractors.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

That's what I'm looking for! If this IH 27V is like the one in the video I'll be a happy guy. I literally need to go get it asap. I've been trying to get my field cut for a while! Still second cutting............... I'm not very happy but, when you have to rely on other people these sorts of things happen.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

The 27V should be a lot better I would think than the much older McCormick (IH) model in the video I linked. Primarily a better and quieter mechanism that wobbles the sickle on the newer 27V although the older ones work too. I only linked that video as it sorta had close-up views so you could see how easy any of those McCormick Deering (IH) with a caster wheel mounts to any old farmall that utilizes some form of that u-shaped drawbar that farmall used for decades. (The cub would be the only exception as its PTO shaft turns backwards from industry standard so a cub would need a cub specific mower and a cub would require a smaller mower anyhow)

Farmall cleverly used that U-shaped drawbar as an improvised universal tool bar all the way from the 1930's to the early 1960's.

There are lots of other videos on youtube of those IH caster type mowers mostly on Farmall h's and Farmall m's as those were really common tractors.

Few JD versions in action with that caster wheel too...


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

I had an IH 25V mower at one stage (the Australian version, designated GL25VO). It worked well behind a grey Ferguson, but behind the less powerful Farmall A it did not work so well. In tough grass I was down to first gear. The Farmall A is much the same as the Farmall B. A 27V would probably work OK behind a Farmall 200, which is more powerful than an A or B. Before we bought a disc mower we cut a lot of hay with a 3 point Massey pitman mower on the grey Fergy.

I also had a NH 404 conditioner. It worked well, needed no hydraulics. I would say your 200 would drive it better than your B. But I doubt your 200 would drive it and a mower at the same time.

These days if I want to cut with a sickle bar and a roller conditioner I use a NH 461 haybine, which I bought for $1000 a few years ago. It is 50 years old but still in great condition. That machine must have been a game-changer when it was new! The reel would have changed everything.

I suggest you budget for a tractor upgrade. Say 40 or 50 horsepower, 3 point hitch, remote hydraulics, 2 stage clutch or independent PTO. You will have a much wider pool of good machinery to choose from. If you own it yourself you won't have to argue with anyone about whether you can use it.

Roger

PS I am currently in PEI, Canada, on vacation. With the cool damp weather at the moment I cannot understand how you guys can make any hay at all!


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

No need for a tractor upgrade at all. OP is just piddling on a few acres right now. While the B might not handle the mower as easily as 200 does it will still do it in a pinch. For that matter the B will any piece of hay equipment the OP has. Having back-up capability can be critical when you run antiques.

If he has to pull the 200 off a piece due to a breakdown and stick the b on it no big deal if one has to go a bit slower. It is a smaller tractor and less hp. When I pull my Farmall M of something and stick my smaller Farmall H on it I do not expect it to handle it as well. I only care if it can do it safely and without damge - even if at reduced capacity or slower pace.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Some day I wouldn't mind investing in a newer more powerful tractor. However, right now this is what I have to work with. I don't have much property so going slow is not a problem. This unit is 3 hours 45 mins away so I'm trying to find time to go get it.

I'm not looking to drive a bar and a conditioner at the same time. I'll just have to deal with longer dry times without conditioning it.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Some day I wouldn't mind investing in a newer more powerful tractor. However, right now this is what I have to work with. I don't have much property so going slow is not a problem. This unit is 3 hours 45 mins away so I'm trying to find time to go get it.
> 
> I'm not looking to drive a bar and a conditioner at the same time. I'll just have to deal with longer dry times without conditioning it.


MDP,

Beep twice on your way by, getting this mower (have you called their 800 number, to see if it is still available?). Shouldn't be to bad a drive, you will be travelling through some, navy bean, sugar beet, dairy and wind mill county in that part of the thumb of Michigan. Secondly, you can always add the conditioner (like the NH 404 you found) later. You have the second tractor to pull the conditioner with already. Doesn't matter whether it is a NH or JD, conditioner, we pulled our JD with a Farmall C just fine.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah I emailed and was told its still available. Finding the time to go will be the issue. I might take a couple hours off work and leave early morning. I work second shift. Should be back and able to get to work by 6 pm I think.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I've been all over Michigan but never to the thumb. Should be interesting to see a new area.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rankrank1 said:


> I would say the 200 or the BN would power it but that is not a cutter. That is a conditioner only for use after cutting with the plain ole sickle mower (and more than I would personally pay).


The 404 was a "crusher", meaning that it used a rubber roller and (IIRC) a steel upper roller to pick the cut crop off the ground and crush it between the two, the idea being to split the stems from one end to the other continuously.

The 402 (which I have) is a "crimper", meaning that it used a pair of barred steel rollers to "crimp" the cut off crop between them, kinking the stems and busting them every inch or two as the intermeshing bars bent and kinked the stems between them as it was picked up off the ground and fed between them.

Both were designed to be pulled BEHIND a sickle-bar mower equipped with a stub PTO shaft on the drive flange on the back of the mower. They conditioned the last pass that was cut (which the tractor straddles) as the sickle is cutting the current pass, which will of course be conditioned on the next pass around when the tractor straddles it.

These sorts of conditioners were produced by many different manufacturers (IH, Oliver, Massey, etc) back in the day when conditioning hay was becoming a very popular practice but haybines were just starting to come out-- in fact the original haybine was a marriage of the two into one machine that did it all at once. There were varying schools of thought as to which "process" was better-- crushing or crimping, and when the haybine came out (the New Holland Original) it used lugged, rubber coated steel rollers that they termed "crusher-crimpers", in that the intermeshing rubber rollers crushed the plants as they passed through over their entire length, but they had intermeshing rubber lugs that crimped the stems every few inches to kink and bust the stems open to allow moisture to evaporate easier. That's the system that's commonly used on roller-style crimpers to this day. (Much the same differing opinions now exist between "flails and rollers" and such).

You can pull one of these behind a sickle mower (if it has the hitch and stub-shaft to drive the crimper's driveshaft) but IMHO if you need conditioning, honestly I'd just keep looking til I found a used Haybine that was in decent shape, as it'll do a better job.

I picked up a 402 in decent shape a decade or two ago for $100 bucks... I got it to condition thick-stemmed hay grazer after cutting it with my drum mower. (when I grow hay grazer that is).

Later! OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

This unit has a wood pitman arm. Does that help id the unit?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

It is a 27v I found markings


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> It is a 27v I found markings


MDP, Looks like you found a machine that fits your present operation (and possible budget). Next you can be on the look out for a conditioner (like the NH 404, NH 402, whatever is available). The conditioner will help speed up your hay curing / drying time. But, the mower is a good starting point, especially if you are cutting mostly grass hay. A lot of hay was put up over the years with just a mower like you are looking at. We didn't have a conditioner until the mid-sixties, when my Dad bought a JD model (don't remember the number, but it had a solid rubber and steel with bars for rollers, we pulled it with the Farmall C most of the time.)

Your mower may need a little TLC, but if you keep it housed, it should treat you well (you treat it well, by storing it inside, it treats you well, by working when you want it to).

The wooden pitman arm should not alarm you, easy to replace, think of it being a 'shear' pin. Something has to give, somewhere if you overload the cutting system (like a small rock, from one of our famous ground hogs, comes to mind). Wait a minute, maybe you don't have rocks in your part of Michigan, they were all left on my side of the state (or Petoskey). :lol:

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Now I need to figure out how to get it off the trailer lol. I'll mess with it tomorrow... I really hope we don't get rain.... Wanted to cut tomorrow or Sunday...


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Now I need to figure out how to get it off the trailer lol. I'll mess with it tomorrow... I really hope we don't get rain.... Wanted to cut tomorrow or Sunday...


That's why a tall oak tree is a handy thing to have or enough adult beverages for a bunch of friends.

Larry

PS Get it mounted (on Saturday), test it somewhere (road way ditch, if clean of junk). Sunday scattered thunderstorms / showers, then three days of no rain with sunshine predicted in your area.  You may have the opportunity to get it in real action!!!! Also suggest on Saturday, find a dealer and get a few spare parts, 1-2 guards, extra sections, rivets/bolts and wooden pitman arm come to mind (TSC, Family Farm Fleet, might also have some parts, but the quality ???), seems we use to have an extra divider board hanging around too. Maybe someone else can give you a better Idea of what you might like to have on hand as far as spare parts. I know you might be tight for cash, but I would lean towards a spare whole knife assembly sometime in the future (but that's me, having a second one, ready to go, fixing the broken one on a rain day).


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Can you think of any circumstance where you would cut hay the day before it rains?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Can you think of any circumstance where you would cut hay the day before it rains?


MDP,

Not by choice anyhow in MY area. Heavy rain could drive crop to the ground, you do not have tedder, to fluff it up to help drying or crop ground underneath , quality declines in our area (along with discoloring / bleaching). Usually, described as 'cow hay' in my neck of the woods (or 'pre-washed').

What I seen predicted weather in your area, Monday morning cutting it would be (depending upon Sunday's outcome of course). without much alfalfa / clover, three days should be plenty to have it (mostly grass) baled (you might even be able to bale late Tuesday, with favorable conditions).

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah depending on weekend rain I was hoping to cut Monday before work and bale Wednesday starting around 11:00-12:00


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well my 2 cents is skip the pull behind separate conditioner/crimper unless you plan to have a lot of leafy type crops like alfalfa. Even then it would have to be a bargain purchase for me at $300 or less to consider one. For grassy type hays this unit will benefit some but not as much as it would benefit like on leafy crops. Some of them old worn out things you will spend more time under them cutting the plugs out with your pocket knife as compared to actually accomplishing anything.

That said, I would be on the lookout for a bargain tedder in decent shape (hard to find). Some 2 baskets can be bought reasonable though if you get lucky. The tedder will give you as about as much benefit as conditioner/crimper would in grassy hays. Additionally it will be an outstanding tool in helping you get your hay dry faster (the rake you bought is not gonna be very helpful with this). Finally the tedder will allow you to save a crop that gets rained on (the rake you bought is almost totally useless here).

Tedder = 3 uses as compared to a Separate conditioner = 1 use (1 trick pony). Your rake is already basically a 1 trick pony and the sickle mower is automatically a 1 trick pony any way you slice it.

Too many 1 trick ponies on small scale hay making = very expensive haymaking. Big timers can easily justify having the best of the best in 1 trick ponies and still make money in haymaking. Small timers need stuff that works reasonably decent and it is a real benefit when the tool does more than one thing reasonably decently (even if it is not the best of the best at any of the tasks).


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Also - Where are the new proud owner pictures?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Once it stops raining I'll take a few. My dad cut the tip of his pointer finger off. So I've been busy helping him with work. Tip of the day don't stick your hand in a mower when the blades are moving...


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/grd/5664097881.html

The tedder in this post is only $350 OBO. It's a bit of a drive would it be worth it?


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I personally would not waste my time on that fluffer. Look for a 2 basket PTO spinner type.

I would like to have that baler if it were closer to me...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Once it stops raining I'll take a few. My dad cut the tip of his pointer finger off. So I've been busy helping him with work. Tip of the day don't stick your hand in a mower when the blades are moving...


I realize your dad's injury was likely the yard mower, but

Be very careful when you or your Dad put your hands when you work around the new sickle bar. Put them in the wrong spot even when doing something as simple as raising or lowering the bar and it will easily cut entire fingers off. Belive it or not the knife moves a bit when raising and lowering the bar even though not running. Have your hands to the back of the bar only...never around the guards or knives when lifting or lowering


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks for the safety tip. He is usually very cautious... It literally only takes a fraction of a second. I am so cautious I sometimes take forever doing something until I feel comfortable.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

We have a tornado down right now... Serious storms.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/sickle-section-s20-4013cl-pack-of-10

Could someone tell me if this knife/blade would work on my IH 27V sickle bar.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

rankrank1 said:


> Well my 2 cents is skip the pull behind separate conditioner/crimper unless you plan to have a lot of leafy type crops like alfalfa. Even then it would have to be a bargain purchase for me at $300 or less to consider one. For grassy type hays this unit will benefit some but not as much as it would benefit like on leafy crops. Some of them old worn out things you will spend more time under them cutting the plugs out with your pocket knife as compared to actually accomplishing anything.


Rank,

Good point, I forgot about how many times I laid on the ground with the old pocket knife, hacking away!!! Something to do with my hard drive getting full or old age, I suppose. :lol:

Two basket tedder, probably a good idea also (especially if MDP plans on continuing to harvest grasser hay), if he has some patience, one will appear near MDP area, but probably more costly than the conditioner.

Another good point, the sickle movement and it's unforgiving removal of body parts. The same applies to removal and installing the sickle bar, for replacing sections. The sections maybe a little dull, but can still remove fingers way TOO easy.

Larry


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

I had a Fahr KH20 for a while. Small, 2 basket tedder. Pull type, not mounted. Something like that would suit you fine. The B would pull it easily. A 3 point hitch 2 basket tedder rake like a Lely Lotus or Gemini, or a PZ Haybob, would be better, but much more expensive and you need a tractor with a 3 point hitch.

Roger


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

She's a beaut! Works great. We had to flip the bar on the sickle bar upside down. It wouldn't fit otherwise.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't know if it matters but as you can see we have the tractor drawbar on top and the sickle bar bar underneath. It wouldn't fit the other way. I tested it and it did just fine.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I don't know if it matters but as you can see we have the tractor drawbar on top and the sickle bar bar underneath. It wouldn't fit the other way. I tested it and it did just fine.


"it's always something!!"...I would also be in search of another drawbar for the tractor. I would think you could find one cheap if you keep your eye open. It would allow you to put a couple of blocks under the mower, lift your latches, and drive away from it (in theory). With an extra drawbar, you wouldn't have to line up bolts with one hand, hold up the mower with the other hand, start the nuts with the other hand.... 

Nice mower; hope it serves you well proves to be an upgrade from the simplicity.

73, Mark


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Technically the mower you bought was made for the IH tractors with the fixed u-shaped drawbars. As you seen it will still easily work with the fast hitch drawbar also. If you were dead set on having the sickle mount be on top of the tractor drawbar you could fabricate shims so the sickle mount clears the fast hitch lifting arms and use longer bolts. That is likely way more trouble than it is worth. That said, I might go to the trouble of making the shims if it made it infinitely easier to switch the mower to the Farmall b. In an ideal world I would want to be able to switch that mower to either tractor you have by simply using those 3 primary attachment bolts. (temporaily using a jack and a few blocks of strategically placed wood of course). But 5 bolts is not really a whole more work than 3 bolts and IH likely designed that bar so flipping it like you did provided height adjustment between tractors of different height sizes. The 27V owners manual may even cover this.

Should not be a problem at all with running that sickle mower mount bar underneath the drawbar of the IH 200 tractor instead of on top like you have it now though. Your 200 drawbar height is easily adjustable with hydraulics on the tractor to make the height anything you need (plus the mower would have had enough adjustment to compensate in it even if that IH 200 tractor drawbar was fixed in height or not operational anyway.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Saw earlier you were already looking at replacement knives from TSC. Look at the ledger plates on your rock guards (ledger plate is the surface of the guard that forms the other half of the scissors with the knife section to do the cutting). On some mowers that ledger is replaceable without having to trash the whole guard and on others it is simply all made into the guard and you replace the whole guard when the ledger surface becomes worn

if the ledger surface are serrated then you want smooth type knife sections.

if that ledger surface is smooth then you want serrated type knife sections. (As to whether you will want top serrated sections or bottom serrated sections then that will be a topic for debate unto itself)


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

It looks good. Can you lift the drawbar up a few inches so the power takeoff shaft is straighter. If you run it at the position it is now the offset in the drive shaft will wear out the crosses in the knuckles quickly.

Do you know the basic adjustments for a sickle mower?

Tilt: knife sections flat or pointing down a little.

Lead: Outside end of cutterbar a few inches forward of inside end.

Register: knife moves across the fingers the same amount in each direction.

Roger


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't know any adjustments.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Do you have a manual? Read that, several times. If not, try to get one.

Meanwhile, here are the basics. I cannot remember the details of how to make the adjustments, as we sold our 25V in 1988 or 1989 after we bought a disc mower.

Keep the knife sharp. I used to use a file, but specially shaped grindstones are available. And keep the rivets tight.

Keep the finger bolts tight. Keep the fingers in line horizontally. Bend them up or down with a piece of water pipe over the tip. It's not the tips of the fingers that must be in line, it is the surface that the knife bears on. The knife sections should sit flat on the ledger plates (the cutting surfaces on the top of the fingers) with as little clearance as possible (but the knife must slide freely.

The plates that the back surface of the backbone of the knife bears on should be in line.

The hold-down clips that hold the knife down should have only a small amount of clearance. They keep the knife sections against the ledger plates for clean cutting but should not be so tight the knife binds. There may well be specifications for these adjustments in the manual but the machine is 60 years old or something and not a new machine any more so it is more a matter of trial and error.

Pulling the knife in and out is tricky. The places where the hold-down clips bear on the knife wear but you need to slide the knife past those wear points so you might need to loosen the bolts on some clips to get the knife out and in. If you make a long metal hook with a wooden handle you ought to be able to pull the knife out with that. You might need a few taps with a hammer to get it back in. The closer is is to fully in the harder it is to move, but when it is in the normal working position it should slide.

Now for those adjustments I mentioned earlier.

Adjust cutting height by tilting the cutterbar. Usually you would have the knife sections flat or tilted slightly forward.

The outside end of the cutterbar needs to be a few inches forward of the inside end. This is called the cutterbar lead, Rough guess, about 3 or 4 inches. This will be reduced when the mower is working, but the outside should not be behind the inside when in work or the cutterbar will drag.First, with the mower mounted and the cutterbar on the ground, grab the outside shoe at the end of the cutterbar and pull it back and to the left. This takes up any wear in the linkages. Then sight along the back edge of the tractor rear wheels and put a marker vertically below this line directly in front off the inside end off the cutterbar and another one in front of the outside edge. Measure the distances from the finger tips forward to these markers and the difference is your lead.The adjustment will be somewhere in the breakaway linkage that goes from the right front corner of the mower frame to the inside end of the cutterbar. You will be able to lengthen or shorten this linkage. While you are at it, make sure the spring loaded breakback system can actually release if you hit an obstruction.

Register is the extent of movement of the knife sections against the fingers. The points of the knife sections should end up in the centre of the fingers at each end of the knife stroke. Adjust by lengthening or shortening the horizontal arm that the cutterbar is mounted on, the arm that pivots at its left end and is attached to the cutterbar at its right end.

That ought to get you started.

Roger


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Well I had mixed results with the sickle bar. On two fields that were very dry not tall and not very thick it cut great! On the field with very tall and very thick grass it was near impossible. The top 3/4 of the grass was dry. Since it was so tall it was creating a canopy which stopped the bottom 1/4 from drying completely. Needless to say it clumped and laid on the bar instead of laying down behind the bar. I made a decision I might regret but you live and you learn. I brushed hogged it as high as I could set it and in second gear. I thought it would help it dry underneath. I figured I could give it a day to stand up and hit it with the bar. Seems like the field was overgrown and wet underneath. If I can avoid that in the future I think the bar will serve me well.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I would have simply cut it to the same height you cut everything else once you switched to the bushhog and simply accepted the yield loss. My bush hogged hay sales proceeds payed for every piece of slightly better hay equipment that came after it. Sickles of any type (even on haybines) do not like going through already been cut hay. That is why that special angled board is on the end of your bar to move that hay over just enough so when you make your next round you are not trying to run the sickle through already been cut grass which plugs em up immediately usually.

Plus even if your sickle amazingly cuts through the already been cut grass you have still lost a valuable day of dry down time. With a Wednesday night rain on the way that you were talking about earlier... that lost drying time may be critical.

Bush hogged hay acts a tenderizer on course stemmy hay actually making it much more palatable and desirable to the animal that will eat it. On grassy hays it is a poor mans conditioner to boot and dries it quicker. But you will see 30% to 40% less bales produced than had one cut with sickle (or any other proper hay mower).

My motto is 70% of something is still a whole lot better than 100% of nothing.

Hope your plan ends up working out for yah...but I have my doubts...


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah I have doubt as well. I'll let you know how it turns out.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Sickle bar pictures. Let me know if anything obvious is wrong.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Sickle bar pictures. Let me know if anything obvious is wrong.


1st photo, looks like the what we call the divider board is missing. Goes on very outside of bar, you see a hole? Ours had a spring / bolt set up, with a broom handle attach to the board. If I can find a picture I will post.

Larry


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

What is the hay you're cutting? If mostly grass, those under serrated sections will work just fine, if mostly alfalfa/clover or anything hollow stem, you'll want over serrated. Check your guards' ledger plates too, if they're rounded off, the sickle won't cut well and will hammer like a son of a gun.

Your sickle angle looks pitched forward quite a bit, flatten it out a touch and the grass will lay back off the cutter bar better.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

stack em up said:


> What is the hay you're cutting? If mostly grass, those under serrated sections will work just fine, if mostly alfalfa/clover or anything hollow stem, you'll want over serrated. Check your guards' ledger plates too, if they're rounded off, the sickle won't cut well and will hammer like a son of a gun.
> 
> Your sickle angle looks pitched forward quite a bit, flatten it out a touch and the grass will lay back off the cutter bar better.


I am cutting grass and some patches of clover. Mainly grass though. Could you advise on how to adjust the angle of the bar? I have to go to work at 3:00 I'll have to do it before I cut the back field. The bar runs and sounds very smooth and does not hammer.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I can't see the pitman end very well, so it'd be hard to say how to tilt it back.

The pitman will hammer when cutting and grass gets jammed in the sickle and guards. If it hammers, you'll know it!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I can't see the pitman end very well, so it'd be hard to say how to tilt it back.
> 
> The pitman will hammer when cutting and grass gets jammed in the sickle and guards. If it hammers, you'll know it!


Yeah it's done that lol now I know what you mean.

I'll look at the pitman arm if that's where I make the adjustment.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I'll look at the pitman arm if that's where I make the adjustment.


Not at the pitman, just trying to see in that general vicinity.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP,

Do you have a manual or tried to locate yet? I think Stack is talking about the tilt of the cutter bar. Looking from outside in towards tractor, raising the front or point of guards, up/down, would be changing the tilt. IMHO

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't have a manual and I have only looked briefly and could not find one. I'll keep looking. Thanks for the help guys!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I don't have a manual and I have only looked briefly and could not find one. I'll keep looking. Thanks for the help guys!


There are multiple copies on eBay in the $20 neighborhood.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The sections are worn out. Every time you sharpen a section you effectively shorten the sections stroke. Those sections that are pointy need to go. If they are serrated sections, than any section that the edge is not serrated need to go.

Tilt the bar back to help clean the cutter bar when cutting. Will cut slightly higher but the material can fall off the bar easier.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll have to figure out how to take out the blades and replace. I know the one I hit this morning was sharp.. I have a small cut to prove it. I'll work on adjust the tilt back so it's more flat. In general is it difficult to replace the blades?

By sections do you mean the individual blades?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Sickle bar pictures. Let me know if anything obvious is wrong.


First picture, the yellow line on the picture, someone already pointed out the PTO angle. This could also be causing some of your tilt situation. Raising your drawbar could help reduce the angle. Then if your tilt becomes a problem, is there any adjustment on the rear swivel wheel (blue circled area)? The red arrow is to where there could be a divider of some sort missing (red). I would be guessing, but I would think mower designed to run close to level (appears to be running on it's nose, down in front).

Picture number 2, shows your PTO alignment (yellow line) again (can you move mower to left? It appears so in picture 3). And if you can get some picture of area circled in orange, maybe some can see if your have a tilt adjustment in this area. Along with a device (tripping mechanism ) that allows the bar to swing back if you hit something immoveable. Last thing in picture 2, your wheels appear to be adjusted almost all the way in (blue lines), which means once you get everything set, your right rear wheel will most likely be running on cut hay. Could be the way you want and maybe not, just pointing out YOUR situation.

Picture 4, my crude painting of a divider board with handle (yellow) and where it attaches (circled In orange) Yours could have been a wire rod type also, but without one, I don't believe you will be a 'happy camper' while cutting. Lastly, the red arrows is what I believe is 'tilt' of your cutter bar.

Larry


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

It does not matter if the section is sharp if the travel of the section keeps it from going past the corner of the guard ledger plate. Think of it as a scissors where each side overlaps the other when closed. No overlap or little overlap of the section to the guard will not allow the mower to cut cleanly.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks like you will be playing carpenter and making yourself a swath board for the end of the bar. That is an absolute must have item as it serves a critical purpose. Luck for you it is fairly easy and cheap to make.

The Sickle sections look to be mostly of the smooth type and well worn out at that.

I am guessing your ledger plates are of the serrated type? I covered in a previous post in this thread what the ledgers are and their significance .... You will want to understand that before you blindly purchase new sections.

Setting up a sickle mower is an art. They work awesome when perfectly set up. Not so well at all if a few things are off. Understanding the adjustments are critical. And there is such a thing as trying to go too slow with one as well as too fast. You need to go fast enough so the stuff falls behind the bar as it is cut.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

https://www.google.com/search?q=ih+27v+sickle+mower&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjaj7Dg2dbOAhWBqB4KHSXwDjYQ_AUICCgC&biw=360&bih=560#imgrc=Zeoqk5i8vadrYM%3A

I don't know if that's original but it looks like a rod... That's all I need?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I don't know if that's original but it looks like a rod... That's all I need?


Look at picture 1, shows board better (orange colored), the rod could be attached to the board (we used a broom handle, works some what the same, makes the hay fall towards the center of mower). As Rank mentions, you could make a divider board.

Notice picture 2 how the mower is more level than your picture? A manual might help with this setting.

Picture 3-4 show the PTO alignment (straight, in line with tractor) and the wheels on tractor being set out wider than you have yours. This is up you and what you feel comfortable with, however.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Blade ends.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I worked the tractor and brush hog to hard... as mentioned before and I don't disagree that my tractor is under powered for this type of work. I ended up shearing the bolt that holds the shaft together that enters the brush hog. Simple fix but it put me out of commission. I ended up going over half of the field a second time. The other half didn't need it quite as bad. I am optimistic that after I rake it wont cause me to much trouble. I obviously go be very wrong and things could go sideways. I guess I'll be back with an update another day.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Blade ends.


Those look okay to me. Not the greatest, but better than some I've seen that were still cutting.

Most of the cutting action of a rotary mower (bush-hog, shredder, whatever you want to call them) is via the speed of the blade tip coming in contact with the stationary stems. Sharper blades cut cleaner with less resistance, but even dull blades spinning at high speed will "rip through" the stems they come in contact with.

Back to the sickle mower issue. I think a big part of your bar angle problem is the mower being mounted underneath that two-point hitch drawbar. Your mower was probably made for mounting to the fixed "U" shaped drawbar of an old M/H/SuperC or whatever without any rear power lift hitch (the kind of drawbar that simply bolted to the axles on either side). You could raise your lift arms to compensate and level the mower out, which should also help your driveline angle...

Here's a pic I grabbed off the net showing what I'm talking about...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Here's some illustrations...









Note that the mower frame is mounted ABOVE the old style "U" fixed drawbar. Notice the much flatter (though still slightly lower in the front than at the tail wheel) angle-iron mower frame angle than your mower, in the picture you posted, which you mounted below the 2 point hitch drawbar? That angle is probably contributing big time to the fact that your bar is running with the guards pointed down (bar riding too high in the back, which will make it harder for stuff not to hang up on it).

Next, notice the angle of the driveline and height of the PTO. Again, your mower mounted below the bar has the driveline operating a steep angle-- this is murder on U-joints and causes vibration, as well as indicating that the angles are all off. This needs to be corrected.

Compare the picture of your mower with this one and you'll see what I mean...

You have to figure out how to correct these issues. Step one-- GET A MANUAL!!!  You may have to "modify" things a bit to get your mower mounted on the newer tractor with the 2 point hitch, or get some parts from a salvage yard. Shouldn't be too difficult-- if the existing mower bar won't mount on top, you might have to get some steel and make a wider bar (or pieces with holes on each end) that bolt onto your existing drawbar, while moving the mower back a little bit so it can mount where it needs to mount without hitting the two-point hitch drawbar... so long as it doesn't move the mower back too much (overextend the drive shaft telescoping part and get too near the ends (not enough overlap of the driveshaft), or cause other alignment/angle issues).

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Here's some more pics and graphics I grabbed off the net to illustrate the points already made above in other posts.

Grass stick...









Sickle register in guards... check at end of stroke-- the tips of the sections should still be within the width of the guard ledger plate tip when the sickle is at either end of its stroke, both inbound and outbound strokes. I colored one section red in the illustration below A&B... C&D show problems with knife register which should be corrected.









how to measure to determine cutterbar lead...









later! OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Would the farmall bn power that sickle bar? It has a fixed flat drawbar. I don't know how else everything would line up. I wouldn't have any adjustment up or down without hydraulics.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Maybe, if everything is adjusted right. And right now I doubt everything is adjusted right. As I said before, our A only just drove our 25V. But surely you can lift the mounting higher on the 200.

Roger


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Your mower will work on either the Farmall 200 or the Farmall BN, but you have to set it up right....the beauty of your model 27V sickle is that it will work an any of the old Farmalls clear back to the 1920's Farmall Regular, F20, F12, F14 etc right on up to the mid 1960's models with fast hitch that utilize the u-shaped drawbar. Early models totally lacked hydraulics altogether and drawbars heights are always fixed. Hydraulics models can be adjusted to any height you need. You having the hydraulics on the 200 should in theory make the set up even easier to get it all correct....

r82230 has posted some excellent photos and even added personal art work illustrations to elaborate his points. I hope you take the time to go back and read his explanations

I know I have posted lots of info which you either did not read or tuned out (thats fine your choice).

Luke Strawalker posted some excellent photos and explanations hope you read those.

Other have posted lots of good info in your threads....hope you go back and read a lot of your older threads as there is lots of info in all of them by many people. Maybe you will get a few points out of them the 2nd time around.

I hope you replaced the shear bolt in the bush hog with the proper grade 2 bolt (and not a grade 5 or grade 8 bolt). Every Howse or King Kutter brand rotary cutter that I have been around uses a grade #2 bolt of 1/2 diameter for the shear bolt. (Grade 2 = smooth head no markings. Grade 5= has 3 hash marks on head. Grade 8= has 5 or 6 hash marks on head). TSC likely still sells the King Cutter brand bolts in a two pack but they are nothing more than grade 2 bolts and more $ than general hardware sold by weight prices.

No the swath rod is NOT all you need. The rod attaches to a swath board. You need both. (That said it is possible replace the board shape with a steel rod skeleton instead- some brands did this).

Hope you spend the $10 to $20 to buy the 27V Operators manual and read it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I am reading everything several times. I'm sorry if my follow up questions are making it seem otherwise. I've said multiple times I appreciate all the information and help.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

There's a lot to learn! You are trying to learn in a few weeks stuff that has taken me 40 years to learn, and some folks here have been at it longer than that. I am trying to keep my language clear and simple for you. Another thing that influences what I write is the likelihood that others in a similar situation to you are reading this stuff and trying to learn from it, but not posting so we don't know they are there.

As well as the operator's manuals for the machines, there are also good general information books that often explain the operational principles better than the operator's manuals. John Deere "Fundamentals of service" manuals provide very good information,and there are others too.

Roger


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't want anyone to think I don't appreciate all the help. I really do and I try to implement everything you guys advise me on... I'm not the best at mechanical adjustments... I just do the best I can.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I took a few pictures of the sickle bar. I'm hoping some of you experts could pin point the area I need to adjust to fix the levelness of the bar. I need to slowly chip away at these adjustments. I am very busy with work and family. Need to get this bar working great before I cut the back field.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

First thing I would do, is look at Luke's pictures (his art work is much better than mine) and get the front of the mower mounted higher on the tractor. By doing this your tilt will improve IMHO, along with being much easier on your PTO joints. Then attack the tilt, a manual will help with tilt adjustment, is my guess. IDNK your equipment. To reiterate the importance of tilt, if you have ever driven down the road with your hand out the window at 40-60 MPH, if your hand is flat the wind goes by both sides, if you point your hand down the wind 'piles' up on top of your hand pushing down (stacking up, per se). If you cutter bar is tilted down, the hay will stack up on your cutter bar, plugging it up. Where as if it is level or slightly titled back, the hay will fall off. Once again, the manual should have some information on the proper tilt for your machine. BUT if you have the mower attached to low on your tractor, there may not be enough adjustment to have the correct tilt. That's my reason for adjusting the mower mount first and foremost.

Luke found some great pictures (even showing a divider board, with broom stick handle, making my art work look bad, usually I just draw in the dirt with a stick to show someone something ), if I was you I would be printing them to put inside my manual.

Larry


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I can't put arrows to it on iPhone, but the carriage bolt at the end of the sickle head can be loosened. That's where you adjust the cutter bar angle.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm going to need that arrow sadly enough. If you can get to it sometime that would be awesome.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I can't put arrows to it on iPhone, but the carriage bolt at the end of the sickle head can be loosened. That's where you adjust the cutter bar angle.


Stack, Did I put the arrows in the right spot? Larry

Maybe these are larger??


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Those are very small pictures. I can sort of tell.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Perfect


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes, that's perfect Larry. That's the only place that makes sense to me.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll check it out tomorrow!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Should I move that bolt all the way back in the slot? I think it's in the middle currently.

Nevermind I see how it works.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Lift the tractor drawbar or the mower mounting before you adjust that bolt in its slot. You might find you do not need to adjust the bolt. Generally the middle of an adjustment range is a good place to start.

Just forward of that adjustment is an eye bolt that connects to the breakaway linkage that hooks to the front right of the mower frame. Screwing that eye bolt in or out is how you adjust the cutterbar lead. Screw in to increase lead, screw out to decrease lead. It looks well screwed out already.

I cannot tell from those photos where to adjust register. I suspect it is on the left side of the mower.

Roger


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

mike10 said:


> The sections are worn out. Every time you sharpen a section you effectively shorten the sections stroke. Those sections that are pointy need to go. If they are serrated sections, than any section that the edge is not serrated need to go.
> 
> Tilt the bar back to help clean the cutter bar when cutting. Will cut slightly higher but the material can fall off the bar easier.


Exactly, especially with grass. Once the serrations start to wear or get dull change the sections.

Another thing, how is the register on it? Been years and years since I ran one but it should be adjustable, at the ends of the stroke you want the tip of the knife to be centered over the point, that way you have the most room for the grass to flow in between the guard points so the sections can cut it, improperly set register on a sickle can make it cut like crap no matter how much money you throw at it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

So it's not the position of the bolt in the slot. The bolt just tightens down the position you put the bar in?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I won't fully understand till I go out and mess with it. I'm sure with the help from everyone it'll make sense to me.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I am reading everything several times. I'm sorry if my follow up questions are making it seem otherwise. I've said multiple times I appreciate all the information and help.


That's good... sometimes it takes me 2-3 times reading something for it to make sense... suspect with technical stuff that's pretty common for most folks. It's a lot harder to explain in words or with pictures when you can't see it and explain in person yourself.

At any rate, I'll say this-- ++1000 on the suggestion about buying a manual and reading it cover to cover several times-- it's the best investment you can make!

Later and good luck! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

r82230 said:


> First thing I would do, is look at Luke's pictures (his art work is much better than mine) and get the front of the mower mounted higher on the tractor. By doing this your tilt will improve IMHO, along with being much easier on your PTO joints. Then attack the tilt, a manual will help with tilt adjustment, is my guess. IDNK your equipment. To reiterate the importance of tilt, if you have ever driven down the road with your hand out the window at 40-60 MPH, if your hand is flat the wind goes by both sides, if you point your hand down the wind 'piles' up on top of your hand pushing down (stacking up, per se). If you cutter bar is tilted down, the hay will stack up on your cutter bar, plugging it up. Where as if it is level or slightly titled back, the hay will fall off. Once again, the manual should have some information on the proper tilt for your machine. BUT if you have the mower attached to low on your tractor, there may not be enough adjustment to have the correct tilt. That's my reason for adjusting the mower mount first and foremost.
> 
> Luke found some great pictures (even showing a divider board, with broom stick handle, making my art work look bad, usually I just draw in the dirt with a stick to show someone something ), if I was you I would be printing them to put inside my manual.
> 
> Larry


Sorry Larry... Google is yer friend and I always Google stuff first and hit "images" to see all the pretty pictures before I start trying to draw something or whatever-- just makes things easier. That diagram of sickle register I grabbed off another board-- someone whipped that one up for another conversation somewhere along the line... I DID modify it a bit by coloring one section to show the positions of a single section at both ends of travel and added the text to it (which I tried to copy-n-paste from the post but it didn't work-- I just typed it in "Paint".) Your drawing was good of the swathboard and stick!

Agree 100% with your suggestions above-- START by raising up the hitch end of the mower and/or lowering the tail wheel so the mower runs LEVEL. That should help with the weird driveshaft angles and stuff and it's the adjustment you want to make FIRST, because if you adjust anything else and THEN adjust that, whatever you do first will be thrown out of whack. With most machines, you have to adjust things in a specific order or you'll just undo what you did as fast as you make subsequent adjustments-- it's like a combine-- you have to adjust the header first to do a good job, ground speed, etc. to get the best gathering job before you can really dial in the thresher adjustments (cylinder speed/concave clearance) and you have to adjust that before you can really set up the separator/cleaner adjustments (chaffer/sieve openings and airflow) and get it all dialed in. If you don't "follow the flow" you're chasing your tail-- making adjustments to the chaffer or sieve or fan before setting up the thresher speed or clearance, or setting the thresher before you dial in the header adjustments and ground speed, and all those prior adjustments will change.

It looks like there's a tilt adjustment bolt out there where the headstock of the mower attaches to the end of the round bar... BUT, you MUST get the frame height/tilt right FIRST. I've never run this particular mower, so I'm not an expert on the setup, BUT, looking at it, I THINK that if you get the end of the round bar about level where it attaches to the frame (by raising the front end of the mower frame) that will correct about 95% of your problems-- straighten out (raise) the driveshaft to a more level position and level out the bar as well. I'll doctor one of your pics to illustrate...

In the end, there's NO substitute for READING THE MANUAL... best investment you'll ever make!

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Okay here's the pix... should help (I hope).

First is what we've been talking about-- your cutterbar angle to the ground. See how the tips are pointed DOWN?? This raises the back of the bar, making grass hang up on it a lot worse. You want it LEVEL to the ground line, or even with the back tilted SLIGHTLY down, which will help stuff slide off the bar a LOT better and prevent clogs and bunching up.









Second pic, See the tractor driveline centerline in yellow? That's basically a line through the PTO shaft in the tractor. See the IDEAL driveline angle in yellow BEHIND it?? That's what you IDEALLY should be shooting for in alignment-- if it's off some, it's off some, but it should be a LOT closer than what your driveline angle is in RED. Okay, see the BLUE line?? That is your current frame angle-- IMHO MUCH too low! See the GREEN line above it?? That is a lot closer to where you want your frame angle to be (had to put the writing in black for the green line so it could be seen). See the ORANGE line?? It's a centerline through the round bar frame mount that goes over to the cutterbar headstock. IMHO this should be about LEVEL with the ground line below it (also orange). See in the pic that your current angle is off (because the frame angle is too low). IMHO if you correct the frame angle, it will solve a LOT of your problems-- raising the front of the frame with the hitch arms will level out the frame angle, raise the driveshaft and pulley, reducing the driveline angle and straightening it out, and raise the round bar frame mount, rotating it more level, thus leveling the cutterbar as well...









Third pic shows with a black line through the pivot bolts where the pivot axis line is currently. The red line shows about where it needs to be, and the yellow lines show about how much IMHO it needs to be raised. Raising the 2 point lift arms SHOULD correct this; you said you had to flip the bar over to mount this mower on your lower lift arm hitch drawbar-- IMHO this is probably what has all the angles screwed up... the bar is twisting from flat to DOWN, when originally it was twisting from flat to UP (to mount on top of the old fixed drawbars of the older H's and M's and such). Fixing this may be as simple as raising the hitch to the proper level and keeping it there, or it might require modifications or parts-- maybe a different mower bar to mount to the drawbar, or getting some steel and torching off three pieces with round bolt holes in it so you can flip the mower bar and mount it BEHIND the tractor drawbar to level things out, bolting the pieces of flat iron to the tractor drawbar and then bolting the mower drawbar to the flat iron pieces... However you do it, you NEED to raise the front end of the frame to correct these angle issues... (IMHO).









Fourth pic is another one showing the centerline of the round bar frame mount (in red) versus the ground line (in yellow). I think this round bar frame mount centerline SHOULD be about level with the ground directly below it for the cutterbar to operate level.









Fifth pic shows, IMHO, the LAST adjustment you should make. The bolt with the black line through it SHOULD be the cutterbar angle adjustment, BUT, IMHO, you SHOULD correct your frame angle problems FIRST-- then adjusting this might be TOTALLY UNNECESSARY. Adjusting this MIGHT correct your cutterbar angle issues, BUT, it will do NOTHING to correct the driveline angle problems and other stuff I pointed out in the pix above. Correcting the frame angle (by raising the hitch or flipping the hitch bar back however you decide to do it or have to do it) will address a LOT of these problems AND correct the mower cutterbar angle, WITHOUT having to mess with this adjustment. Looking at the length of that tilt slot (red arrows) you'll probably have to peg it all the way back to even attempt to correct the cutterbar angle shown in the first pic... and then you got NO adjustment left!









That's my best suggestions... Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

This is more how it SHOULD look... angle wise and stuff...









OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I will definitely be spending some quality time getting to know the bar before I cut my back field. Time to read your impromptu manual a fourth time! Thanks everyone for all of your efforts.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Don't forget to move your mower to the right when your are re-mounting with Luke's drawings, here is mine again showing your are too far to the left (PTO on an angle). I just didn't do as fancy of a job as Luke, but hopefully you get the idea, the yellow line is meant to show a straighter PTO alignment on your tractor.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Got it!


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Maybe you could move the mower to the right a bit but I don't think it is out of line much. The vertical positioning is much worse. Your inside shoe is well outside the right hand tractor wheel so that does not give you a reason to move the mower to the right.

To check the register, move the pitman crank all the way to the left and take a photo looking down at the cutterbar, then move the pitman crank all the way to the right and take another photo looking down at the cutterbar. We will soon tell you if it is OK. I can't tell you how to adjust it yet (if it even needs adjusting), for that I would need to see photos of each end of the big round bar that the whole cutterbar assembly mounts too. There must be some way to lengthen or shorrten it.

Roger


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I adjusted the tilt of the bar. I hope it looks better. I have the draw bar lifted all the way up. I didn't mess with the angle of the bar as far as forward or back. I am soaking that eye bolt first before I adjust that.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Front of mower still seems way low. The angle on your PTO shaft is still quite steep.

Look how flat the main frame of the mower is in this video. Also look how level the PTO shaft is.






If your lift arms on the tractor are already all the way up then I would flip that bar you flipped on the sickle back to the way it was originally. Then make a quickie spacer out of wood and use really long bolts to mount that bar on top of your drawbar. Of course that sickle mount is going to rest on top of the tractor lift arms. and that gap is going to be what you fill with wood. (note: a better solution would be to fab something out of steel. Heck even some simple pipe spacers could be easily fabbed with a simple hacksaw but you would still have to use long bolts. I would likely weld something up out of scrap so I could utilize short bolts but not everyone has metal working tools). Doing this will allow you to lower your lift arms on tractor yet you will have some adjustment again in your hydraulics to get that mower frame more level as well as the PTO shaft more level.

2) You still need a grass board and rod on end of bar
3) Your sickle sections all looked shot to me and need replaced as yours have been sharpened too many times.
4) Do you guards have ledger plates on them or is the ledger made into the guard?.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

duplicate post


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I know it's not perfect yet. I just posted a progress update. I agree it's still not level enough. And I have not got to the swather board yet. I won't be able to replace the blades this year. I won't have the time and only need to use it one more time this season. I'll post again after I figure out the draw bar height situation.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Here is an entertaining rebuild of a really old ground powered sickle.

If nothing else if may help familiarize you with the parts. (note as I covered in post 69 your mower may have the ledger built into the rock guard and not be replaceable like these ledgers are).






Only goofs in this video is he put serrated knives on and his ledgers were also serrated. (having both serrated is uausally bad news) .

Also, I would use the special bolts to install the section knives as I do not like the hassle of rivets at all myself, but the falla sure was darn clever in making the rivets to replace those ledgers on the guards.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Before you mess with adapters on the tractor drawbar, look for ways to lift the drawbar further. It looks like there is a second pair of holes in the arms that drop vertically to the drawbar and if you moved the pins to those holes you would gain another 2 or 3 inches in drawbar height. There might also be other adjustments I cannot see. Making these adjustments will be easier than adapting the mounting between drawbar and mower. Make sure the shaft will not catch or rub on anything.

Don't move that eye bolt until you have measured the cutterbar lead. You might not need to move the eye bolt at all.

You also need to check the register (or show us photos looking down at the cutterbar with the knife fully left and fully right).

How close is the clearance under each knife section down to the ledger plate surface on the fingers?

How close is the clearance under each hold-down clip? They are the clips every foot or so that hold the knife down.

Don't worry about replacing knife sections yet. Sure, some of them are worn out or close to it, but you have bigger problems than that to fix.

And make that swathe board.

Roger


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

The problem with his knife sections is not the cutting edge on them as they appear decently sharp. However The sections are worn down so much (or been sharpened so many times) that the cutting edge of the knives will be shy of going as far as it should in either direction. Even with perfect register the cutting ability will likely be severely compromised as the interaction of the knife to the ledger plate will be 1/4" shy of optimum when it travels right and yet another 1/4" from optimum when it travels left.

Worn back cutting edges are not a problem on a rotary type cutting machine (aka lawmower, bushhog or disc type mower) as spinning blades are spinning blades so the cutting edge will always cut if sharp enough even when worn away some.

However, worn away edges (even if sharp) is a problem on a sickle as the cutting edges of the knife only moves so far in each direction. I agree that it might be the last thing I address on the OP's current list of many issues but if that one field is as thick and heavy as the OP has implied then I am not so sure I would disregard fixing the knives. $25 and an hour of two of time would sure prevent a lot of aggravation later. Prevents another messed up filed like the little field too.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I have some pictures to post in a bit. I didn't get the register pictures. I'll try to get them tomorrow. I am done working for the day. Time to relax.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rankrank1 said:


> The problem with his knife sections is not the cutting edge on them as they appear decently sharp. However The sections are worn down so much (or been sharpened so many times) that the cutting edge of the knives will be shy of going as far as it should in either direction. Even with perfect register the cutting ability will likely be severely compromised as the interaction of the knife to the ledger plate will be 1/4" shy of optimum when it travels right and yet another 1/4" from optimum when it travels left.
> 
> Worn back cutting edges are not a problem on a rotary type cutting machine (aka lawmower, bushhog or disc type mower) as spinning blades are spinning blades so the cutting edge will always cut if sharp enough even when worn away some.
> 
> However, worn away edges (even if sharp) is a problem on a sickle as the cutting edges of the knife only moves so far in each direction. I agree that it might be the last thing I address on the OP's current list of many issues but if that one field is as thick and heavy as the OP has implied then I am not so sure I would disregard fixing the knives. $25 and an hour of two of time would sure prevent a lot of aggravation later. Prevents another messed up filed like the little field too.


Exactly... spot on.

Later! OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I could not get the second nut off the sickle bar mounting bar. I literally broke my father in laws $350 torque bar. I snapped the head right off. Apparently after I flipped the bar upside down I tightened it a little too much. Now I need to work on getting that off so I can flip the bar around.

The rest are pictures from today. I baled a very small field with light hay. I am still waiting for the side field to dry out. I broke the pickup drive chain just as I finished... Need to fix that now.

I also posted some pictures of the bales and the draw on the twine. I have the tensioners down. I don't know what went wrong with the one in the chute. It's still in the chute but the twine looks very loose. None of the rest looked that terrible...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Yeah those strings are way loose. My guess is you are really having to overly crank down the bale tension rods (the two rods with the springs on them). I know I never have that much rod sticking up above the spring. My guess is this is because your hay dogs are either stuck (or have broken springs in them. Hay dogs are at the top of the chamber and act sorta like a 1 way check valve. Aonther possibility is your wedges are missing along the sides of the chamber.

Either of these help produce tight bales without cranking the tension down so much. Parts catalog is available for free viewing on New Holland website.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Could also be too small of a windrow feeding into the baler causing the loose bales. If just single raking light and/or finely shredded hay it is probably hard to keep enough going in the baler to make the bales but so tight.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

I thought of another way you might be to mount that sickle bar short of the tall wood blocks, tall metal spacers, or tall pipe spacers and very long bolts (once you get that bolt loose) on top of your original fast hitch drawbar.

You might be able to place that bar on the sickle (once you flip it back to original orientation) directly behind your tractor fast hitch drawbar and then metal plates to connect the two bars together. Short bolts could be used then.

Caution: Those moves the mower further away from the end of the PTO shaft by like 3 inches. Your operators manual for the 27V likely gives you a target location in relation to the PTO shaft end for mounting the 27V universal mower. (As an example my Farmall h horseshoe drawbar mountings hole centers are only 2" behind the end of the PTO shaft. I would measure my Farmall M but I did away with the horseshoe drawbar on it when I custom welded up a 3 point for it).


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

How do I get this metal plate?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Trotwood2955 said:


> Could also be too small of a windrow feeding into the baler causing the loose bales. If just single raking light and/or finely shredded hay it is probably hard to keep enough going in the baler to make the bales but so tight.


They were light and pretty chopped windrows


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> How do I get this metal plate?


Scrap yard (aka steel recycling yard) is cheapest place to usually to buy. Local machine shop or fab shop likely would sell cutoffs cheap. TSC, Rural King, Lowes, Home Depot all have a metal rack and sell some metals but not much in way of thicker stuff (most of what they have is less than 1/4" thick and priced kinda high for what you get but convenient if they have something) .

On the rare occasions that I buy steel I have a few locations that will sell whatever you want if they have it by the pound. Some is brand new and some is used. This is better for me as compared to buying brand new steel where you have to buy like a 20 foot length of it at a premium price.

Heck you only need two or three pieces about 4" wide and 6 inches long (maybe 7"). I would shoot for something 1/2" thick minimum to 3/4" thick in plate steel (whatever I could easily find). If I could not find anything in plate then you could make 2"x2"x1/4" wall thickness angle iron or 2" channel iron work too. (the angles provide strength and allow thinner wall thickness). Drill, torch cut, or crudely stick weld burn a hole with 6011 rod with an old stick welder cranked way up to burn roughly a 3/4" diameter hole in each end of the plates and good to go.

Again you will want to verify if mounting the mower this way places the mower in the acceptable range from the end of the tractor's PTO shaft. Just one of many reasons we have all been encouraging you to spend the $10 to $20 to buy the 27V operators manual. Critical dimensions to target when mounting the mower to any brand of tractor will all be in that manual.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

We might need to investigate what wedges and hay dogs are inside the bale chamber.

You could either make some adapter plates or have a machine shop make them for you. From memory, the genuine IH drawbar adapter brackets as supplied in Australia were about 5/8 inches thick with a variety of 3/4 inch holes in them. But first investigate raising the drawbar by adjusting the linkages.

As for the knife sections, I understand that once the cutting edges meet at a point the effective stroke of that knife section is reduced, but even then the stroke will be no less than 3 inches so if the register is correct the points will pass the ledger plates and finish their stroke within the fingers. So there will be nothing uncut. Therefore, it is not imperative the worn knife sections be replaced immediately.

Roger


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> How do I get this metal plate?


Welding shop, Machine shop, scrap dealer


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I am getting an impact tomorrow to get this nut off the sickle bar mounting bar so I can flip it back to right side up. I am going to try and mount it on the fixed draw bar on the BN and see how it looks on that. I actually have a very good stretch of weather coming up. I really want to make a push to get this bar going to get the back field cut.

If I have time before work tomorrow I will pull the bales that are currently in the chamber out. I will take some pictures of the inside of the chute. Hopefully they will explain what is going on.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> They were light and pretty chopped windrows


Light windrows can cause banana shaped bales in the early new Holland balers but light windrows will not cuase what you were seeing on those loose strings.

Heck I have large sections of my fields where I have no windrow at all when I bale (drainage tile upgrades) and running the baler with absolutely nothing going in at all does not do that to the bale strings.

Hay dogs or missing bale wedges will likely be the issue. Cranking the bale tension down helps mask the problem but will not totally correct the issue (Only time I have ever had loose strings on bales was stuck hay dogs).

This is easy to check with a cresent wrench but the bale chamber must not have any hay in it to check it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

If I have a wedge or haydog issues is this a simple fix? Is it an expensive fix?


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Simplicity of the fix depends on the problem. That's why we asked for photos. Springs are fairly cheap. Wedges and hay dogs might need to come from a parts machine.

Don't worry about looseness in the strings while the bales are in the chamber. The bales are compressed while they are in there. Worry about looseness once they are on the ground.

Roger


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> If I have a wedge or haydog issues is this a simple fix? Is it an expensive fix?


Cheap fix. and you do have an issue of some kind as your strings a way loose even with bale on the ground. picking up a bale should not stretch the strings like that.

If the hay dogs are stuck it is as simple as spraying with penetrating oil and wiggling them free with a cresent wrench. Your bale likely has 2 hay dogs in the top fo the chamber and 2 in the bottom of the chamber.

If hay dog springs are broken then you will need to replace the springs (New Holland special spring) not some general hardware spring at all.

As for the bale chamber wedges. Those can be purchased from New Holland at a kinda high price or fabbed up yourself from sheet metal if you handy with that sort of thing.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah I understand Roger. I've never seen one that loose even in the chamber. I'll get some pictures tomorrow.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

http://www.messicks.com/nh/51411

After you click on the "plunger" tab on left part of screen

#36 is what a hay dog looks like. #34 and #35 are the hay dog springs and those springs are not real cheap so hopefully they are not broken. (2 hay dogs at top of chamber and 2 at bottom of chamber are what most NH balers have. Spin the flywheel by hand when the plunger is rearmost that is about where the hay dogs are)..,

#41 is the chamber wedges. These will be matched pairs along both sides of the chamber but like a foot or two rearward of the haydogs. Most balers have 2 sets of these. But many people prefer 3 sets. They basically provide a 1/2" ramp of shrinkage from the bale wall sides. These compress the bale from the sides and also further sorta provide the benefit of the 1 way check valve as the bale is being formed..

With your hay dogs functioning properly and your chamber wedges all in place you do not have to crank the tension rods down so far in an attempt to mask the other issues. You will end up with a bale that the strings do not stretch so much when you pick it up off the ground.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I about to head out and investigate.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Anything obvious?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

The hay dogs are intact, how are the springs? The bale chamber is fairly rusty, if you could shine that up a bit, your bale consistency will be much improved.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Apparently I still don't know how to use my phone to take pictures...


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

What should I spray it with? Its hard to reach in the chamber... Any way to help this?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

You would have to take a side grinder with a wire wheel to shine it up, then spray with slip plate when you're done for the season to keep it from rusting.

Only way is to shimmy up the chute, not a lot of fun but there's worse places to be.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

What about the wedges? Do I have any?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> What about the wedges? Do I have any?


There is one pair of wedges. I'm assuming you haven't bought a manual for your baler yet.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I have a manual. If I knew what I was doing I wouldn't post questions.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm looking for confirmation. I could guess and assume all day.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes you have wedges.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I have a manual. If I knew what I was doing I wouldn't post questions.


I'm just saying they should be pictured in the manual.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Will this do? It's the best I could come up to with.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

stack em up said:


> Yes you have wedges.


As far as I can tell I only have 1 set. Should I or could I put in another pair?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Im not sure about the 66, and I am WAY to lazy to check on Messicks website, which is messicks.com, then I'd have to click on online parts, then I'd have to go click on New Holland agriculture, then I'd have to type in 66 in unit search, then I'd have to scroll till I found the baler, to see how many were an option. See how much work I'd have to go thru, and I'm just not gonna go thru that amount of work.

And yes, your swath board looks great. Just make sure to put a compression spring on that bolt so that the swath board doesn't just bounce around.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I just called the local dealer and he said this baler only calls for 1 set of wedges.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Is that swather board going to work stack?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Will this do? It's the best I could come up to with.


MDP,

You are getting there, looks good to me, does it go down? If I remember correctly, with sickle down, the divider board should be riding about 2" or so off the ground (like level with cutting height. Don't forget the compression spring, Stack mentions (unless you want to experience of making more). 

If you haven't watched this video (old from NH), I suggest you do so, around the 4.45 to 6.00 minute mark, it shows the hay dogs, that have been mention by others. You need to understand what is happening inside your baler. The strings are going to be loose when the baler ties the string. It is what is suppose to happen next.






Let me explain tightening of twine this way (this is from an old hired hand we had, when I was a youngster). He could use 640 rods of fence to fence in one acre or use the same amount of fence to fence in 40 acres with 2 rods left over, how did he do it?

Answer, he fenced in an area 1 rod wide and 160 rods long (one acre), using 160 +1+160+1=162 rods used, 80+80+80+80=160 (a square, of 40 acres), 160 rods used, hence 2 rods less fence used. The wedges and tensioner on your baler are doing the same kind of thing.

Squeezing a rectangle into a more rectangle shape, therefore, 'tightening' the strings. To see just the opposite, take one of your bales, set if on end, while putting weight on the other end. You will notice your strings getting looser.

If I get a chance, I am going to measure the Farmall H and C I have in the barn, for drawbar height (from ground), PTO shaft to drawbar and end of PTO shaft to draw bar. I think these maybe of help to you also. Because from your picture I would guess you need to raise the front mounting point 6"-8". Which in turn would level your PTO shaft, along with correcting your pitch (that you have already adjust first, I would have done second, IMHO).

Does your manual have a recommended distance between PTO and drawbar (or mower mounting plate)? See attached of what you should find.

Larry


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

While it may call for only one set of wedges, there is nothing that says you can not drill the bale case and add another set. If your windrows are that light, then the top of the bale will not get filled out and you will have loose bales.

Stuck hay dogs or broken hay dog springs will give you crooked bales.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Ok good to know. I just talked to the dealership and I guess they call them stops. The field I'm baling soon has big windrows so I will know soon if it is in fact windrow size.

I found my hay dogs with the plunger at the rear. All 4 were up and the springs seemed good. I am going to take a air powered wire brush to the chute and knock the rust off like what was suggested.

I just need better bales and tighter twine.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Also the blades go center to center. I couldn't take video because I was by myself.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

r82230 said:


> MDP,
> 
> You are getting there, looks good to me, does it go down? If I remember correctly, with sickle down, the divider board should be riding about 2" or so off the ground (like level with cutting height. Don't forget the compression spring, Stack mentions (unless you want to experience of making more).
> 
> ...


I didn't realize this needs to lay down along the ground. What kind of spring do I need? Do I install in on the bolt I have going through the hole in the end of the bar?

I just watched a couple youtube videos and it looks like I have to pull it backwards and lay it down.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I didn't realize this needs to lay down along the ground. What kind of spring do I need? Do I install in on the bolt I have going through the hole in the end of the bar?


MDP,

See attached photo, it also has what I called a 'broom' handle. If you can find a parts manual, it is a compression spring of some sorts, on a cartridge type bolt, if my memory is working well enough.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Do I buy the spring separate and put it on or does it come as one piece? I'll work on getting a stick on the end of it. Will it work ok without that stick?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Any compression spring should work, a lighter one would be the best choice. What it does is two-fold. First, it keeps tension against the swath board so that it stays down along the ground, and second, it allows for a breakaway of the divider board while making turns.

My old IH 1100 had the swath board but never had the stick on it. Seemed to work ok just as it was.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm sorry for the obvious question. Where exactly do the install the spring?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

On the carriage bolt that the swath board pivots on.

Between the board and the nut.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Between the nut and wood or between the backside of the board and metal?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I'm sorry for the obvious question. Where exactly do the install the spring?


Look at part number 42, this is a Ford, but will be very much the same idea. (Cutter bar assembly), #42, #43, #44, #45 and #46, will be spring, bolt, washer, nut and cotter key, which stops the nut from coming off, as board goes up and down. The 'broom' stick is more important for tall (think 1st cutting grasses), crops, as the crop falls backwards, it could fall over top of the board. So not important right now, being you are cutting 2nd cutting. IMHO

http://www.messicks.com/nh/54136

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Here is a video (if I did it right), where you can see how the divider board with the broom stick works in a tall crop. And how your mower will work, when properly set up. Just be thankful you are not trying to steer a Farmall M. 

http://www.ask.com/youtube?q=proper+mounting+of+IH+27+sickle+mower&v=YWcD5fjX-yc&qsrc=472

I would like you to stop the video at about 23-25 seconds area and notice how he PTO shaft is almost level? Stop at about 1.00 notice the wheels in relationship to mower? 1.08 how level the mower is (and PTO shaft)?

Larry


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

If you don't have a manual yet, No 27V McCormick, looks like your model. @19.95 , with parts list. (Plus $7 S&H).

http://www.binderbooks.com/implement.htm#Mowers

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

stack em up said:


> On the carriage bolt that the swath board pivots on.
> Between the board and the nut.


So I need a bolt with a cotter pin hole at the end? Also I wouldn't tighten the nut down on the spring I'm guessing.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Standard carriage bolt, drill press, do it yourself, is how I would do it. (Dang SC anyhow)

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll definitely be getting that manual.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Or, you could just put a locknut on and double nut it. Just saying.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Why would I need 2 lock nuts?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I just meant put a lock nut on along with the standard nut. Then tighten each other against the other.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't tighten it down so much that I'm compressing the spring I'm assuming.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Ummm, you need to be compressing the spring to a certain point.The spring is holding the board down, and is also gonna be your breakaway.

I think it's best we just assume you are starting from absolutely zero as far as mechanical knowledge? I'm not knocking you or anything, I'm just making note so we can avoid any future confusion that may lead to catastrophe.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I have very limited mechanical knowledge. And I have a hard time visualizing things until I see or do them... Makes learning over a message board hard. That's why I ask the same question multiple times or ask basic simple questions.

I didn't learn or do anything like this growing up. I played sports 24/7. Now as an adult I am starting to do this kind of stuff mainly because of my wife. I do enjoy it but I have no background in this field.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

And that's just fine! I've been on machinery since I was old enough to reach the pedals. But I can't play a lick of sports. Like ZERO talent. My wife beat me at basketball one night when we were on a date. She thought i let her win. It was fine, that night turned out all right...

Anyway, not every person can do everything. That's why we each have talents. That's what makes the world go round! That and fat bottomed girls...


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

LOL. Back to this spring... How long should it be? And I guess I won't understand how it's a breakaway point until I witness it...


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Also.. You on a basketball court is like me with machinery... Awkward


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I'd say most compression springs are at least 3" long. I wouldn't waste a lot of time finding the perfect spring, just a spring for now, it can be refined later if required.

How it works as breakaway is this: As you turn, hay that's just been cut will be laying behind the cutterbar will wad up by the swathboard. If there is no protection on it, the swathboard could just break off. The spring gives it the movement it would require.

Keep in mind, the hole in your board will have to be oblong oval to give the board ability to move on the bolt, a 1/2" hole on a 1/2" bolt doesn't allow much fudge factor.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Those are the little gems I need to know!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> How do I get this metal plate?


Any welding shop should have what you need...

Later! OL J R 

PS. I was going to suggest something similar but figured that you could kinda figure out how you'd want to do it yourself.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP,

Here is a site, that sells wooden pitman, (I would suggest that you have a spare, along with some sections, rivets/bolts and a guard or two). Nothing worse for those of us with 'off-farm' jobs, having something break, stopping us from getting the job done in a timely manner.

http://www.stevenstractor.com/farm-equipment-parts/hay-related-parts/sickle-mower-parts/pitman-woods-6.html

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Since we are in a bit of a bind my father in law suggested we try to hook it up to the BN. This is what it looks like.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Can you tell from the picture if the bar is level or needs to be adjusted.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I'm going to be a little remedial, but I'm not talking down to you, I just don't know your familiarity with such things....

You are aware that the hitch moves up and down on the 200...right? There is a hydraulic lever which should raise the 200's drawbar higher than the B's will ever be.

On your torque bar deal...if you're calling a torque bar what I would call a torque wrench...never use one for CCW work or for more torque than that for which they are designed. They can't handle the strain. I know it is tempting because they often have a longer handle...that's not to give you more torque, but to apply normal torque with easier/smoother.

You're feeding your baler with too light of windrows or too slow. Knowing that you're baling with the 200 and 1st gear is fairly fast, I would recommend making larger windrows. I notice that the bale tension (the two screws on back of chamber with the big-assed springs under it... The cross bar that rests on the chamber tops that the screws (with the springs) go thru...it shouldn't be resting on the bale chamber. The six inch (or so) channel iron that runs from the cross bar is what holds tension down on the bale as it slides thru the chamber. Your cross bar is bottomed out because there is not enough hay in the chamber to push it up. When my bales are tight, there is still an inch or two of gap between the chamber top and the cross bar.

I can't tell from the pics the tension on the bale for sure...but they look loose. After the bales leave the chamber the strings should be snapping tight (they are loose until then because of the tension hasn't let them expand back out against the strings yet). If your bales are loose as they appear, they don't stack well, easily blow out the side of the strings. I would imagine, if you put one on end and put your knee in the middle of it, you could fold the hay bale in 1/2 without breaking strings? I know there has been a difference of opinion of this thread if too light of windrow would make a loose bale or not... My old JD14t would still make a brick even if you had to drive 1/2 mile to get enough hay for a bale; my NH and IH square balers will make a able that would make a better pillow if fed way too slowly.

Maybe you have ran it enough to count the strokes per bale...either each time it rocks the tractor or every time your plunger strokes. I wouldn't be too surprised if some of your bales aren't hitting 50 strokes per bale...shoot for I shoot for 14-18 and settle for 10-20 range before I change gears...and my patience wears thin quickly with 20.

Please don't take offence if I was too remedial...no offence was meant.

73, Mark


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yes I'm aware the 200 has hydraulic. I had it lifted all the way up and it still was not high enough. This was because the sickle bar mounting bar was mounted underneath instead of on top of the tractor draw bar.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Yes I'm aware the 200 has hydraulic. I had it lifted all the way up and it still was not high enough. This was because the sickle bar mounting bar was mounted underneath instead of on top of the tractor draw bar.


Ok. I've had/have a couple of tractors with quick-hitch. Any that I have ever had would lift higher than an H or M's drawbar at normal height (18" if I recall).

Also of note on the quick hitch... some had a cam (for lack of a better term) under the tractor and on the hitch which would lower the front end of the hitch, therefore making the rear end higher. I think it was called draft control or something. My 300 had this and it could be pinned up, pinned down, or ran with a cylinder for plowing etc as you could move it a little without "lifting" the hitch. If you started to spin your tires, you could feather the other lever and gain enough traction to get thru then sink it again. I no longer have the 300 or I would take a picture for you. That will make you 3-5" of height if it is pinned in up under the tractor. To gain extra drawbar height, it needs to be pinned down.

73, Mark


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

You are probably correct but I think the difference is that I had the mounting bar on the sickle mounted to the underside of the tractor drawbar instead of on top... So I was losing height from the start.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Anyways hooking it up to the 200 can be a project for another day. It's on the BN currently. I am hoping things look good in the picture I posted. I really need to cut my field.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

That's supposedly one from a 200. It is different that I have seen, but he shackle could be moved past the hole and a pin put in the hole. It will change the angle of the hitch and give more height.

That is, if I'm looking at what I think I am...I didn't take the pic, it's off the inner web and I'm going off of experience with different quickhitch styles. Mostly the same principle, just different mechanics to achieve it.

73, Mark


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Since we are in a bit of a bind my father in law suggested we try to hook it up to the BN. This is what it looks like.


Now that looks about right... can already tell your driveline angle looks MUCH better, sicklebar is running more level, etc. Good work.

OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I tried cutting today. It goes well for stretches but then goes to hell quickly. The grass is wet near the ground. I damn near cracked my board off going in reverse.... I need to figure something out.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

What goes to hell? Cutting ability? Wads up on the cutterbar?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

If I can get a nice bead it cuts great. It drops the grass perfect. Yes it wads up and gets jammed. The grass is wet so I'm sure that's a big factor. I just don't know what to do... My wife wants to quit and try to get the neighbor to do it again. Personally I don't want to do that.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Wet grass generally jams up underneath the hold downs and the slots in the guards. If it wads up on the cutterbar after it's been cut, it makes me curious of your travel speed. How fast are you running the tractor and how fast is your ground speed?

In all honesty, any grass is gonna be wet at the bottom. Just a fact of nature.

Could you post a picture of it when it wads up?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I did see it under the guards like you said. I am at work. Unless the neighbor cuts while I'm at work I'll try to post a picture asap. I am going a decent speed. I can't guess mph I'm in first gear almost full throttle.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Ok, that's good to know. A lot of people try to slow their engine rpm down to slow ground speed, that doesn't end well. I think a lot of your issues would be cured with new sections and ledger plates/guards.
You can cut an insane amount faster when the whole knife is in good shape. Just keep plugging away at it and you'll get it done.

Sounds like you got a good winter project.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I agree. If only I had a heated barn


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Basement in the house? Had a friend in school rebuilt a 351Windsor by bringing it in piece by piece and working on it in the basement. And his mother didn't even disown him.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

No basement. Good idea though. I'll come up with something.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well as many of already warned you your sickle sections are way shot and were long past needing replaced (this is only a one to two hour job to replace the sections). You never have addressed the ledger situation at all either. We do not know the ledger condition or the gap on them.

1st gear on a Farmall B is only 2.3 mph at wide open throttle which is too slow to cut with a plain ole sickle mower even if you had the sickle in tip top shape.

2nd gear on the B at WOT would be 3.6 mph would be a much better speed to utilize with a plain ole sickle. You have to go fast enough so the hay falls behind the bar as you cut it. (Like the B This will also be 2nd gear on the 200 also at around 3.9 mph when you have the mower on it)

Going too slow even with a plain ole sickle (even one in tip top shape) allows the crop to fall in front of the bar as you cut it which is bad news as sickles do not like to go through already been cut crop at all.

Course you are not going to cut hot butter at any speed with the shape your knives (and possibly ledgers) are currently in.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Next time I have a chance to cut I'll definitely go fast.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well there is a such a thing as going too fast too. The generally accepted maximum speed limit of any sickle based cutter is approximately 6.5 mph. That said, few realize that fast of travel speed as the mower needs to be kept in meticulous tip top adjustment with like brand new parts at all times.

Few people make the effort to maintain a mower at that level (me included). I cut at 4.3 mph mostly (my biggest tractor) with some 3.5 mph sprinkled in (my little tractor that is hp challenged) using a sickle based cutter (Note: My sickle based cutter is a mower conditioner but the cutting is still done with a sickle).

Until you fix your issues you are not going to cut successfully at any speed.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

It was cutting just fine for an entire pass. It has issues turning and as mentioned before clogging up. If I get it going nice and it's under the grass it was dropping the grass flat. I guess you'd have to be present to see what I mean. Apparently I can't properly describe the situation.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Turning should be a piece of cake. Both your tractors are narrow front ends and your mower is mounted. Simply mow roundy round towards the center amd make 90 degree turns which is easier because of the NF.

If your grass board you made was made properly and functioning properly it reduces your 7' of mower cut swath to something a about 6' wide. This approximately 1' of nice clean area that has been cut but has no grass laying on it is for inner show of the mower to run when you make your next round cutting. It is important as the operator that you steer the tractor so as keep that inner shoe running in that little part of where no cut crop is laying each and every time from round 2 till done.

Regardless, you are still going to have address your knife and (possibly ledger) issues if you want to have any success and any hopes of an enjoyable experience mowing hay.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

You might find it easier to lift the cutterbar out of the grass and make each turn without cutting.

Use full throttle to keep the knife speed across the cutterbar as fast as possible.

How much clearance is there between each knife section and the ledger plate surface of the fingers that it slides on? And is the clearance the same for all the knife sections? Smaller clearance (and equal clearnace for all knife sections) means better cutting action. Another way of checking this is to see how much vertical play there is in the knife at each hold-down clip. There should be almost none, but the knife should still slide easily.

Roger


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP,

To Rogers point, attached is a guard / ledger plate he is referencing I believe.

Also is a picture of a single guard, a hold down clip, a smooth section and a serrated section (pay no attention to the 4 holes). (Someone has told you, that you can not use serrated sections and serrated guard/ledgers some where already on this thread.

Also a picture of the 'lead' that has been referred to, as a FYI and a JD divider board, for you to notice the large hole, so the board has the ability to move against compression spring (helps from breaking the board).

Being you have 'adjusted' the pitch (angle of your guards) on your BN, before leveling mower and now have it mounted on the C, you may need to re-adjust that angle, as someone has already told you there suggested pitch.

I know you need pictures to see what needs to be done.

Hope, this helps clear some mud for you.

Larry


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