# Market Research - Hay Drying Machine



## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

I have a market research question for hay producers, particularly those raising hay for horses. We have about 40 acres of alfalfa/orchard grass from which we bale about 10,000 small square bales a year for sale to people with horses (except any bad hay we round bale and feed to the cows).

We have found that it is becoming increasingly difficult to dry alfalfa hay evenly while still maintaining color and keeping the leaves. Usually, when the hay on top looks dry and ready to go, there is some higher moisture hay underneath that will be enough to make the bales, well, questionable. Our typical process is to mow the hay in the morning (with a mower conditioner), ted the hay the next two mornings after the dew comes off, then rake the hay the next morning after the dew comes off, and bale it that evening so that we can just barely get done before the dew starts coming in. Sometimes on baling day we will ted it in the morning and rake it in the afternoon if it we thought it wasn't going to be totally dry. Maybe the weather changed or maybe I'm crazy, but it seems harder to dry the hay than it was 20 years ago.

I'm wondering if anyone else is having this issue, note that we live in KY and have humid summer days and generally get a heavy dew at night. Most of our customers are very against any type of preservative, such as proprionic acid or those other preservatives that use some type of active bacteria to prevent mold.

*So the question*: If there were a machine that would dry small square bales from 30% moisture down to 15% in 12 seconds, would you be interested in purchasing it? The machine could either hook to the back of the baler, or be pulled through the field to pick up the bales, dry them, and put them back down (or on a trailer, etc.). *For the sake of this research, let's just assume that such a machine exists and works as good as advertised*. The return on investment could be relatively high, given the improved hay quality (and higher sale prices). The hay would be dry with more leaves, better color, and fresher smell. It would be all natural, with no foreign substances being added to the bale, and the bale would not be heated over 100 degrees Fahrenheit. It may even save you a trip or two across the field with the tedder.

How much would you be willing to pay for such a piece of equipment?


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

There are way to many variables in this question. How many bales per hour can this machine dry? What are the variable costs such as fuel for the dryer?

To be honest I dont think you can pull moisture from 30 to 15 in 12 seconds without the bale catching fire...


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

For a short answer I would say yes that I could be interested in such machine.

In reality though I don't see it possible to be able to dry a bale in 12 seconds and it never get heated over 100 degrees. To me a somewhat more realistic approach to a hay drying machine would be something that would dry the hay before its baled. I'm thinking something like a machine that would have a pickup like baler but the hay would go through a heat chamber/oven before being deposited back onto the ground for the baler to then come by and bale it. An issue would be keeping the hay from catching fire since the heat would have to be very intense to dry the hay quickly enough to be efficient. Then the hay would probably to too crispy dry to bale(especially with alfalfa) so some form of steamer/humidifier would be needed after it goes through the drying chamber before it could be baled. I'm thinking that the dryer and steamer would be best as a single machine that would deposite the hay back on the ground ready for the baler and bale collecting system to come right behind it. With all the technology available I'm sure something similar to this could be invented but I'm not so sure at the end of the day how realistic and cost effective it would be for the average farmer/hay producer to own and operate.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Out west we have the opposite problem: Searching for dew

I will bale at elevated moisture intentionally with preservative to reduce leaf losses rather than beat all of them off.

I use a dry product from Pioneer called Alfalfa Innoculant applied through a Gandy box. It is touted as working to moisture as high as 25% and I have had it work higher than that. Specifically I wanted a product that held hay with stem moisture and this product works to around 20% in that case.

Most of my customers feed horses and I have used this on hay for over 20 years without a compliant.

One caution is that you need to have alfalfa stands that are free of grasses and weeds. If they are present at more than trace levels this product will not work.

Three44s


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Hi everyone, thank you for your responses! Here are a few more points:

It may take longer than 12 seconds, but the machine would have several bales in at a time, so the average time per bale would be 12 seconds (i.e., 300 bales per hour), which we have found is about as fast as our baler can bale the small squares (I think they are 14x18x40).

Three44s: The machine would work equally well with stem moisture, dew moisture, or any other type of moisture. Even moisture trapped in the big weed stems.

Again, let's not argue whether it is possible or not, and just assume the machine exists and works (and you have seen demos). I just want to know if there would be a market. Based solely on the increased value of the hay, not to mention the reduced risk due to rainy weather, reduced stress in knowing that every bale is dry (even the ones under the tree line, no sorting required etc.), how much would you be willing to pay for such a machine?


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have been thinking of an idea to dry hay. If things ever slow down here want to do some experiments so see how will it will work.


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Also, I forgot to mention (thanks PaMike) , let's assume the device requires 20-30 HP to operate at 300 bales per hour. So, however much fuel that corresponds to, but not much different (possibly less) than most pieces of equipment.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I've seen pics of a prototype machine that uses microwaves to dry the hay.IDK if its feasable or even workable.I think it was in Farm Show IIRC

found it.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Can't beat thermodynamics- the cost to run dryers be it microwave, dehumidifier, solar, heated air, forced air all add a serious cost to the bale of hay. The time to do such drying is also limited to certain rates.

Machine is neat idea but many have gone before you in this area and if you take a look around, the marketplace has not adopted them to a large extent.


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Can't beat thermodynamics- the cost to run dryers be it microwave, dehumidifier, solar, heated air, forced air all add a serious cost to the bale of hay. The time to do such drying is also limited to certain rates.

Machine is neat idea but many have gone before you in this area and if you take a look around, the marketplace has not adopted them to a large extent.

Yeah, my idea is quite different from all of those. I've worked out the thermodynamics and everything seems feasible. I actually already have some backing on this project and am in the proof-of-concept stage. I can already make the case for why the technology can work, however, in order to get further backing, I need to show that there is truly a market for such a device (these investors are not farmers) and what the potential revenue stream may look like. For the obvious reasons, I'm not really willing to divulge any of the secret sauce as to how it might work at this point.

*So, let's just go back to making assumptions that such a piece of equipment does exist and that it works*. Would you be willing to spend your hard earned money to purchase one? How much would the machine be worth to you?

Thank you for taking the time to help.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

KyHay111 said:


> Can't beat thermodynamics- the cost to run dryers be it microwave, dehumidifier, solar, heated air, forced air all add a serious cost to the bale of hay. The time to do such drying is also limited to certain rates.
> Machine is neat idea but many have gone before you in this area and if you take a look around, the marketplace has not adopted them to a large extent.
> 
> Yeah, my idea is quite different from all of those. I've worked out the thermodynamics and everything seems feasible. I actually already have some backing on this project and am in the proof-of-concept stage. I can already make the case for why the technology can work, however, in order to get further backing, I need to show that there is truly a market for such a device (these investors are not farmers) and what the potential revenue stream may look like. For the obvious reasons, I'm not really willing to divulge any of the secret sauce as to how it might work at this point.
> ...


There are so many variables, how many acres per day could your machine do? that has to be factored in, also the price must be just right as it will add to the cost of production and if above a certain level it becomes cheaper to import hay from other areas. Great idea though.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Short answer for me would be no. If it can't dry big squares, doesn't do me any good. Good luck with your venture though!


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Trillium Farm: The machine could dry 300 bales per hour, so depending on how thick your hay is, you would have to calculate how many Acres/hour that would be.

stack em up: The first iterations of the machine will focus on small square bales, but the idea should apply equally to large square bales and round bales.

I guess it is too early to ask the yes or no question of "would you buy it." So how about we rephrase the question:

* 1. Would you be interested in purchasing such a machine?*

* 2. How much would you expect such a machine to cost?*

Thanks


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Build it so it drys the windrow and uses the moisture to soften the leaves. Need to be able to pull a large square baler behind it. Look at the Stahelli Steamer as an example. As long as the operating cost is low enough I would be interested in buying one.

How much moisture is it capable of removing?


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Just to add, continuous vacuum drying of hay has been tried as well since that's almost the last option. Hint, also energy intensive. ????


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

I don't know what your little bales weigh but if they are 50 lbs 300 bales per hr is not much hay. Needs to be at least 30 tons/hr. This will be an expensive machine so your market is going to be large growers with big equipment and lots of tons to bale. If I could reduce the drying time by 2 or 3 days, bale perfect leaf retention, and get the pivots back on sooner its worth quite a bit to me. I have to be convinced first though.


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

I would be willing to purchase this machine, however, price is a difficult thing to assess. Dependability, reliability, simplicity, and 'high moisture' max input would all be determining factors.

But, I would say, if I could guarantee that all my hay would be out of the field in 2-3

days via this machine, it would be worth $1/bale if it allowed me to sell that bale for $1 more given consistently better quality. So, $5-6K/yr with a minimum of 7yr essentially breakdown 'free or minimal' lifespan. I'd pay $20-30K with a 5yr bumper to bumper warranty.


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

What would the duty cycle/life expectancy of this machine be?

And do you have any information on maintenance cycles/costs?


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Thank you guys for all of your input!

paoutdoorsman: At this point, sadly, I do not have any of that information on maintenance cycle/costs. All I can say is to assume that you can expect at least 200 hrs of operation (so about 60k bales) with no breakdowns and minimal maintenance. I understand that everything is being super optimistic but (I think) that is how most market research goes (it always seems to me like market projections are overly optimistic).

Like I said before, I would just like to get some assurance that *if* the product were available, there would be a market for it.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I'll trade my NH tedder for one of these things. For me mounting such a thing before a rake also would work. Oh I didn't read how it would work. No thanks not interested.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

No. I wouldn't. I would rather use preservative. Or get aftermarket conditions rolls for the mower. Seems much easier.

A drying machine is invaluable if you know there's no other way to get hay dry. As long as there are cheaper ways (like the sun), that means that the cost of the machine will only be spread over the tons on which it's actually used instead over one's entire crop.


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

If your machine could taker a large windrow and dry 30% moisture to 14% moisture, you might have a winner. There are to many variables when it comes to bale size, density, and qaulity. But if out could dry a windrow at raking speed, you would have a huge market. I would be afraid to run 30% moisture hay thru my sqaure baler. Also a lot of the northeast US, which is where a lot of sqaure bales are made, use kicker wagons. Dropping bales on the ground isn't a option, fields to damp/steep. I would be afraid to take a stacker wagon on some of my fields.
If it could take freshly cut hay from full mosture to 60% in a pass, you would have all the dairy guys buying for chopping and round bale and wrapping.

Drying already made bales, i don't think it would work for me, but a machine that could dry a windrow, at 7 mph, I'd be all in. Priced in the 20 to 30 grand range. If it truly meant turning 3 day drying to 2 day drying.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Dadnatron said:


> I would be willing to purchase this machine, however, price is a difficult thing to assess. Dependability, reliability, simplicity, and 'high moisture' max input would all be determining factors.
> 
> But, I would say, if I could guarantee that all my hay would be out of the field in 2-3
> 
> days via this machine, it would be worth $1/bale if it allowed me to sell that bale for $1 more given consistently better quality. So, $5-6K/yr with a minimum of 7yr essentially breakdown 'free or minimal' lifespan. I'd pay $20-30K with a 5yr bumper to bumper warranty.


You won't be able to charge more. It's a question of good hay vs bad hay, if you charge more they'll go elsewhere.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

I guess it is not a case of "If you built it they will buy! "


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh I finally recalled the last drying option I know of, I'm not aware of any working ultrasonic driers that have ever been built for hay. I know there are some for fabric drying but not even sure the concept works for water bound into plant structure.


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Yeah it seems like the big issue is the variability in the types of bales people are making. I do think that the hay would be of a higher quality because it could be baled at higher moisture with more leaves intact. So if you raised the quality of hay from Excellent to Supreme, you would see a decent return on investment because of the higher prices that Supreme hay commands.

The biggest competitor would certainly be preservatives, which provide many of the same advantages with a significantly lower upfront cost, but there are recurring costs with that. I also think that just drying the hay would be better than using preservatives. If I recall correctly, I think preservatives (at least proprionic acid) only hold it off for a few months - and by that time your hay needs to be dry, or else it will mold. Although usually the hay is dry by this time, but it's not good to place it in large stacks for this reason.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

There are dehumidification dryers marketed in the US as well that can handle various formats of bales. The trouble they have is the throughput as they are of the batch nature.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Nope, can't sell it for any more. I've been all over the place with the price. I've found my local ceiling. I have to deliver it to boot. The upside is they'll pay that price regardless of quality. Weird thing about horse owners. They buy a couple show bales to travel with but at home they'll feed them mushroom hay. All about price here.


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

hillside hay said:


> Nope, can't sell it for any more. I've been all over the place with the price. I've found my local ceiling. I have to deliver it to boot. The upside is they'll pay that price regardless of quality. Weird thing about horse owners. They buy a couple show bales to travel with but at home they'll feed them mushroom hay. All about price here.


I wish that was the case here. We have one customer that took 2000 bales and had 4 with a streak of mud through them and they brought the 4 back for replacement bales. And said "my qaulity of hay has gone down this year". I said well 1 bad out of every 500 off the wagon was pretty darn good. They are looking for a new supplier.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

About that prototype dryer in the video - it uses a 580 HP engine to spin a generator big enough to power all those microwaves. A unit like that would probably sell for north of $100,000. And it only processes 15 acres/day. I can see why the concept was never pursued any further.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

That and I believe he died.


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## Westernstar (Jun 27, 2017)

Interesting. Definitely something I've thought of while compiling seat time. If I'm correct the big hay steamers run $250,000 plus. Can't imagine you could build a drier for much less so definitely looking at big producers. Would need to run big tonnage. 
Would buy one in a heartbeat for $30-40k if it worked as advertised and probably think about it up to $80-100k


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## Westernstar (Jun 27, 2017)

Also why isn't there steam/water vapor rolling off that microwave machine? I'd say it wasn't even running maybe not a functional machine


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes, I would be interested---depending.....

300 bales/hour--great! Need a cost break of $,50/bale over 20-40,000 bales to be effective.

I did a cursory look at microwave a few years ago and, as I remember, it took something like a 100KW unit to dry from 30 down to 15%. I was looking at a fixed installation and would have needed to put in a 480V drop and build a shed of about 60x100. Cost at that time was just too much for me.

I also looked into vacuum drying and inert gas drying--can be done--just expensive.

Small bale handling is also a big issue that really needs to be addressed.

Tell us more.

Ralph


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Northeast PA hay and beef said:


> I wish that was the case here. We have one customer that took 2000 bales and had 4 with a streak of mud through them and they brought the 4 back for replacement bales. And said "my qaulity of hay has gone down this year". I said well 1 bad out of every 500 off the wagon was pretty darn good. They are looking for a new supplier.


If only they knew what it takes to make hay. You are better off without them but hope you find someone to fill that void. That is a batch of bales. Not every year is going to be the same quality wise otherwise I would not be still putting 1st in the barn when last year I was done before the 4th of July.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I think the product has serious merit, if it works as good as imagined.....price? .....somewhere around 75-100k


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Research has been done on something similar, the amount of energy required to replace the sun can be astronomical. Thats why the one place hauled the hay wet to the building, ran it thru the dryer and baled on the premises. I imagine this was done to take advantage of three phase power and natural gas.

If your customers are against preservatives then they need educated. I had an article awhile back some university or another recommended feeding preservative treated hay to horses as to eliminate any chances of dust in the bales. Wish I could find it again.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Northeast PA hay and beef said:


> Drying already made bales, i don't think it would work for me, but a machine that could dry a windrow, at 7 mph, I'd be all in. Priced in the 20 to 30 grand range. If it truly meant turning 3 day drying to 2 day drying.


That can already be done most of the time with a much smaller investment. Aftermarket conditioning rolls, possibly a better tedder and rake then the use of preservative if required.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Assuming you have a workable machine you must convince the marketplace that the end product is of greater value than hay produced conveniently. If your selling point is only salvaging value from hay that would otherwise lose some value to inclement weather it will be a challenge.

I did 1,100 ton of small bales last year and would have had little use for such a thing. Ran out of moisture. This year is a different story. If total operating costs could be held to $25 a ton it would have been a great choice for me to use on every acre. Faster harvest, more cuttings. Spread that over 5 years, it's a deal.

Now, if you make this thing cheap enough that it makes sense for guys as small as me, well the market will soon be flooded with perfect product.

My guess is it will cost twice the price of the steamer, seems like the process is twice as difficult, and have half the capacity. In which case, I'm out.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Northeast PA hay and beef said:


> I wish that was the case here. We have one customer that took 2000 bales and had 4 with a streak of mud through them and they brought the 4 back for replacement bales. And said "my qaulity of hay has gone down this year". I said well 1 bad out of every 500 off the wagon was pretty darn good. They are looking for a new supplier.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Sorry to hear that. Sounds almost as they were looking for a way out though. Good baling windows have been in short supply for sure this year. They won't find high quality anything in large quantities this year locally.
I've had to bale everything a tougher than I've wanted to. The week to 10 days of rain between windows allows the wagons to sit in the wind tunnel (machine shed). Haven't had any dusty hay yet. Air always moves through that building even with minimal breeze.


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## Dan_GA (Dec 29, 2015)

I have an engineering background. I'd suggest working on drying the hay prior to baling. The compaction of the bale would likely cause you a lot of unforeseen variables that'll be difficult if not impossible to control.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

You can bale 25% hay no trouble, common in uk so small squares can be wrapped.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Dan_GA said:


> I have an engineering background. I'd suggest working on drying the hay prior to baling. The compaction of the bale would likely cause you a lot of unforeseen variables that'll be difficult if not impossible to control.


Yes, I agree with this completely.

To drive water out of a windrow will be difficult enough, but out of a bale would be much more intense.

Either way it will be akin to pushing a rope up a hill as to the cost of the energy required.

That said, if we waited for every idea to fully rippen on the tree before someone attempted to harvest it, the human race would awefull hungry by now. Someone has to stick their neck out once in a while.

Good luck on your project!

Three44s


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

Trillium Farm said:


> You won't be able to charge more. It's a question of good hay vs bad hay, if you charge more they'll go elsewhere.


I meant that if my hay quality isn't 'lesser' due to weather/rain damage or bleaching, allowing me to charge full 'excellent quality price' rather than weathered price. Great quality alfalfa/grass hay in my area can go for $8-10/small bale delivered. 'Regular' quality is significantly less.

That variance is one of the reasons I'm planting my own rather than purchasing. Consistency is the difficult thing to ensure in KY. For my own horses... and for anyone else who is looking for hay. The cows love it... because there is always a lot of 'cow hay' available. Or so I hear.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Dadnatron said:


> I meant that if my hay quality isn't 'lesser' due to weather/rain damage or bleaching, allowing me to charge full 'excellent quality price' rather than weathered price. Great quality alfalfa/grass hay in my area can go for $8-10/small bale delivered. 'Regular' quality is significantly less.
> 
> That variance is one of the reasons I'm planting my own rather than purchasing. Consistency is the difficult thing to ensure in KY. For my own horses... and for anyone else who is looking for hay. The cows love it... because there is always a lot of 'cow hay' available. Or so I hear.


The bottom line is will it make you more money.....definately a drying system would be beneficial, the cost of lost quality is long lasting. What has to be weighed, is the cost to operate....purchase price can be spread over many years, it's not as much a concern.


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

I c,ant get paided enought for the hay i make now,so c,ant see my customers paying more,because unless there is drought there there is always someone who will sell cheapper


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

What is the cost of operation?

This is reminding me of the Godiva hay from a few yrs back.


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## KyHay111 (Aug 29, 2017)

Thank you everyone again for all of your input.



Three44s said:


> That said, if we waited for every idea to fully rippen on the tree before someone attempted to harvest it, the human race would awefull hungry by now. Someone has to stick their neck out once in a while.
> 
> Good luck on your project!


Three44s: Thank you for the sentiment here as well.

The cost to operate should be fairly minimal, no more than 20-30HP (potentially taken from the PTO). I know there are a lot of naysayers out there regarding the energy input, but right now I just need to know that *if* this were possible, would there be a market. Based on your responses so far, it seems that the market is soft. That surprised me a little bit, because I think that I would definitely buy the hay dryer as I described it, and would probably pay $30k if it existed and was as advertised, possibly more when you consider how much equipment costs these days. And we only have about 40 acres of alfalfa, so we are small time farmers. I guess one big difference is I only farm part time and therefore have no real requirement to make money from the farm, it's a labor of love (although I definitely don't want to lose money either).

Keep the comments coming!

Thanks.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

If it could run right behind a mowco and dry it to 14% so I could bale that day I would definately want one. I dont care for tedding as it is a huge time vaccum, yet here in NewEngland you have to tedd or the hay will bleach out before it ever drys enough to bale.
And second cut.. dang..


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If you make one that uses 20-30 hp to remove water at those tons per hour forget about hay you are going to make billions revolutionizing the industrial production of the world. That's why I'm highly skeptical of the claims. Drying consumes a giant amount of energy use in so many industries scientists and engineers the world over try to shave fractions of a % off the cost to save money. You're talking a 10-100x improvement in energy efficiency of drying.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

20-30 hosspressure could be ran with...say a Farmall H or M and could follow the baler or be ran from a thru-pto of the baler?

I guess a feller could bale onto the ground like hell-wouldn't-have-it, then come back with the drier and maybe pull accumulator behind that?

I'm a small lil bitty hay guy just doing @70 acres. I'll take one for 5-10 kilobux....and I realize that will be for a used one a few years old at 25% of new price. (that's the kind of equip I buy) 

Mark

Ifn I ain't home when y'all wanna deliver, park it over by the unicorn pen. 

Just funnin ya. I've made quite a few things that "can't be done", and I'm satisfied you have a plan formulated between your antlers.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If you could get hay dry with only 20-30hp, you need to design a corn dryer next.

Seen another cute article, the amount of sun required to dry hay equals a LOT more than the equivalent of 20-30hp.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I kind of shared before that my grandparents had a Hay dryer that used oil heat forced hot air, they used it from 1960 until 1980 and then the price of oil caused it no longer to be practical.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

mlappin said:


> If you could get hay dry with only 20-30hp, you need to design a corn dryer next.
> Seen another cute article, the amount of sun required to dry hay equals a LOT more than the equivalent of 20-30hp.


Me too!

If you can make a dryer that economical with respect to energy inputs the world will beat a path to you.

As a matter of course, I don't agree that artificially drying fresh cut hay is the most efficient way as has been suggested.

From my perspective taking hay from say 40% down to around 20% and baling with preservative would seem to use best use of resources and save the most hay more economically.

The reason I believe this is that in difficult drying conditions preservative is really hard to ignore as a tool. Second, a rain on fresh cut hay does less damage than hay that's closer to baling. If one slows a drying apparatus down to take hay from just cut all the way to conventionally baling, you will cover less ground and save less hay. If you pass up the option of preserving you have also slowed down the artificial dry down. The more narrow the range you expect a dryer to work within with respect to moisture percentage your cost per acre and per ton will be reduced (again, more acres and tons saved and less time spent).

A drying agent applied from the swather would seem to add to the process as well. Something that busts the wax layer. Good conditioning of course goes hand in hand also. You would be making the artificial dryer work less intensely also.

I have used a microwave on hay and I wonder about feasibility of taking hay to a really dry state. Granted, it was for comparing meter readings to actual moisture by weight. But for what it's worth I had to run a cup of water with the hay sample to reduce the instance of the alfalfa trying to catch fire at lower moisture levels during the cook down.

Three 44s


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## Bishop (Apr 6, 2015)

Up here if you could invent a way to stop dew you'd make a ton of money. Sometimes it is 11:00am or later before the dew is gone.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

30 hp converts to a large amount of btu per hr. Just a quicky convert gives roughly 76,333 btu cubed per hr.thats a pile of heat. How it gets converted to the moist grass to dry it is the interesting part.
If I had to by a 150hp tractor to run it to get my hay done in a day it would still be worth it i think, especially in the 30-40k price range. But it has to work!


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

So there you go, it will remove at most 76 lbs an hour of water if it uses a conventional drying process. So to dry from 30% to a 15% 50 lb bale you need to remove 10 lbs of water, so you will be able to able at about 7.6 bales an hour at 30%.

That's assuming 100% drying efficiency of the 30 hp.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Bishop said:


> Up here if you could invent a way to stop dew you'd make a ton of money. Sometimes it is 11:00am or later before the dew is gone.


It's rare or late season before I have too much dew but baling as it forms and having preservative on hand would be my choice. Our burn off is often too severe and uneven to bale then but sometimes it works as well.

If a dryer were to be created that is economical, one could likely burn off the top of the windrow (where much of the dew lays) and preserve?

One thing about being a hay farmer is that you are constantly trying to stick a square peg in an ever changing "round hole" that jumps around quite a bit.

In my area, a Steamer would my cherished square peg!

Three44s


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

I am less than 100 miles fro Three44's and have the opposite problem. Too much dew. Not hard to figure out why though with all the pivots running, corn potatoes, orchards, etc.

I would love a dryer so I could bale green hay before its dew bleached but I don't see it as being practical. Preservatives and a no go either. The buyers all carry moisture testers. Once he sees high moisture readings he wont ever be back.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay,

The only cuttings than don't dry down in the stack in our weather are the final ones, the third in a three cut or a fourth in a four cut. While you are producing mostly big squares, we are strictly baling full sized two tie (small squares).

My buyers will mirror the OP's buyers I suspect and not a single of mine has ever dragged out a meter and in fact the few that have had issues had problems with dryness, not retained moisture. As long as the hay was clean and free of mold they were in fact glad it was baled at higher moisture and preserved instead of at a low level and shattering.

It may well be that the OP has enough humidity that their bales don't dry regardless of their size but a grower and buyer can also mutually agree to index the weight of some batch of hay so as to not "sell water".

In over three decades of working with preservatives I have had exactly one solitary customer have an issue with my high moisture preserved hay. This customer with two or three horses was leery of "heavy" bales. She returned a load of a ton of small squares, she took the word of a skinny 15 year old kid who helped her unload the bales in my shed that they were questionable merely because the skinny kid had a hard time moving them.

I presided over this return and with pocket knife in hand cut every single bale open this customer claimed the kid questioned. This customer told me she had a real nose for mold, even minute amounts of other it. She in fact failed to find a single trace of mold. She still insisted upon buying hay from me but I rejected her as a customer. She wanted me to sell her dry hay, I mean shattering hay!

I told her that I would not deal with her even though I end up with more dewless hay than I care to admit because I figured she was likely to have more unfounded "issues" than I had the time, energy or patience to deal with.

I have always figured that she had burned bridges with just about every other hay producer and was at the end of her rope trying to find a producer who would put up with her antics.

Three44s


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Three44s said:


> Jay,
> The only cuttings than don't dry down in the stack in our weather are the final ones, the third in a three cut or a fourth in a four cut. While you are producing mostly big squares, we are strictly baling full sized two tie (small squares).
> My buyers will mirror the OP's buyers I suspect and not a single of mine has ever dragged out a meter and in fact the few that have had issues had problems with dryness, not retained moisture. As long as the hay was clean and free of mold they were in fact glad it was baled at higher moisture and preserved instead of at a low level and shattering.
> It may well be that the OP has enough humidity that their bales don't dry regardless of their size but a grower and buyer can also mutually agree to index the weight of some batch of hay so as to not "sell water".
> ...


The problem with "Horse people" is that they know very little about horse husbandry, from fences to pastures and swards, most of them have way too little land for the number of horses they have so pastures, when they have them, get overgrazed and then turn into dust & mud. most don't know how many acres it takes to keep a horse healthy including pasture rotation, what equipment to have to keep the swards healthy etc also they don't think of the psychological benefits that good hay provides to an animal that must graze or chew most of the day and overfeed grain and underfeed hay as the latter is expensive and must be "handled" Now if they had pastures they wouldn't need as much hay, but pastures require land which is expensive. In the end most horse people are into a hobby that they can't really afford. I'm one horse person that only has as many horses as my land and wallet can support. I could not find good hay when I bought my farm way back when people lit their fire by rubbing two sticks together, so I bought my own hay equipment, I know I'm in a minority, but when one does things one must do them well.


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

I'll buy it! 30k- no brainer, 40k- probably, 50k- wait for gently used


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Haven't read all of the threads and not to take this discussion off topic, but.....

I'm interested in your grass/legume type you're growing and lime/fertilizer program such that you get 250 14x18x40 inch bales per acre (10,000 bales divided by 40 acres). I'd be happy with 125 bales per acre 14x18x36 inches. 250 bales per acre and we're making enough $$$$ to upgrade equipment.

As to the hay dryer, sounds like you've got it designed. If I were a dealer, I'd be asking - what is your pricing for 1ea, 5ea and 10 ea dryers. What is your expected dealer pricing?

Also as a customer, I want to the expected cost to run this thing - beyond the initial price, maintenance, consumables and power required to operate if PTO or fuel burn rate if self motor equipped.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Three44s said:


> Jay,
> 
> The only cuttings than don't dry down in the stack in our weather are the final ones, the third in a three cut or a fourth in a four cut. While you are producing mostly big squares, we are strictly baling full sized two tie (small squares).
> 
> ...


Yep, rather than learn a lesson and stop being such a PITA to deal with...

Later! OL J R


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Three44s said:


> Jay,
> 
> The only cuttings than don't dry down in the stack in our weather are the final ones, the third in a three cut or a fourth in a four cut. While you are producing mostly big squares, we are strictly baling full sized two tie (small squares).
> 
> ...


Mike

I sell very little hay directly to horse owners. Its sold to dealers or exporters. Baling at higher moisture levels causes the flakes to cake together. For some reason the end customers dont like it. My horses eat that kind of hay just fine though. Years ago thats how we baled most of the hay. The market has changed though and wants a dryer bale now. Just means I start baling sooner in the evening before the dew gets wet.

The dairys wont pay anything more for baling with a dew. Only thing they care about is the price and test numbers. They want the hay dry so it breaks apart easily in the TMR wagon.

Jay


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay,

So much for the intelligence of some people.

I know I would like to get "my cake and eat it too" as much as anyone but life is a trade off.

I have had a few people mention about the added work of pulling small square bales apart but when offered the differences between dry or not dry, they fessed up and wanted leaves and softer hay.

Hand feeding the minor amount of big squares that I have bought to finnish a feeding season for our bossies, I am struck by the added effort that stuck together flakes present but given a TMR I would be glad to let it grind away a little longer knowing there were more leaves in the bale.

Over the past 40 plus years I have had multiple buyers of every stripe in here ... dairy, export, feed store, jippo .... you name it and I've heard and combated about just about every farce one could imagine.

I could see an exporter worry about hay that did not sweat out getting compressed and stuffed in a container and getting sealed up but my first and second cutting in small squares dries down pronto. A later third or a fourth not so much.

As you know I am real keen on adding steam to my baling. When I do a search on the subject, I am bombarded by links to outfits that make and sell small steaming machines for horse folks to apply it to hay already harvested. Pardon the pun, but the "leaves have already left the ..."!

When I get to Stahli West's web site I find that they teamed with a University and they have issued a report on the machine's merrits and they list increased feed value as a tangible addition due to the process.

After all the frustration over four decades of baling hay often dryer than it should be, all the while knowing what sort of end result I wanted ... I plan on not spending my last couple of decades of my usefull time doing the same maddening thing, turning beautifull alfalfa into "car springs". Going broke buying a 180k elephant isn't the path either.

Enter red neck engineering ....

Best regards

Three44s


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

The leaves are in big bales that are baled dry. They are just not attached to the stems. Baling with a dew makes much nicer looking and feeling hay but I have never been able to improve the test with a dew. I was completely convinced I would and it took a while to convince me otherwise. The ideal time to run a big baler is in the evening after the hay cools but before the dew really starts coming in. However during the hot part of the summer my dew is often coming in by dark. Makes for a mighty short baling window.

Dew is a funny critter every night is different. Under ideal conditions with a light breeze the hay gets soft without getting wet. Perfect baling. But during the hot humid weather the hay often gets wet very quickly and sometimes is still not very soft.

Your dry area is much better than mine for putting up green hay.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Jay in WA said:


> Baling with a dew makes much nicer looking and feeling hay but I have never been able to improve the test with a dew. I was completely convinced I would and it took a while to convince me otherwise.


I checked that one time also dew vs bone dry side by side.Figured the same thing-RFV would be higher.Protien was higher but RFV was lower.

Head scratcher there.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay in WA said:


> The leaves are in big bales that are baled dry. They are just not attached to the stems. Baling with a dew makes much nicer looking and feeling hay but I have never been able to improve the test with a dew. I was completely convinced I would and it took a while to convince me otherwise. The ideal time to run a big baler is in the evening after the hay cools but before the dew really starts coming in. However during the hot part of the summer my dew is often coming in by dark. Makes for a mighty short baling window.
> 
> Dew is a funny critter every night is different. Under ideal conditions with a light breeze the hay gets soft without getting wet. Perfect baling. But during the hot humid weather the hay often gets wet very quickly and sometimes is still not very soft.
> 
> Your dry area is much better than mine for putting up green hay.


We can on balance get outstanding color with good weather. The bleaching associated with substantial dew is absent and our hay dries down faster because of the dew shortage. We can't rake because our hay is too brittle on top soon after cutting but if the weather is good, we don't need to. The only time it makes sense to "stir" our hay is during a rainy period or late season baling.

So with our hay color a way to artificially form a dew would put us in the driver seat.

I have often pondered tying my windrows together in series and "towing" them down to the valley floor 200 feet in elevation below our fields and bale them there as there is generally a dew in that location. I see it on the pasture as I make my way over to the alfalfa fields on the bench.

Best regards

Three44s


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol, what kinda tow rig you dreaming up three44s....


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Three44s said:


> We can on balance get outstanding color with good weather. The bleaching associated with substantial dew is absent and our hay dries down faster because of the dew shortage. We can't rake because our hay is too brittle on top soon after cutting but if the weather is good, we don't need to. The only time it makes sense to "stir" our hay is during a rainy period or late season baling.
> 
> So with our hay color a way to artificially form a dew would put us in the driver seat.
> 
> ...


Easy solution to your problem. Plant an orchard above your hay field. You will soon have plenty of dew. Especaily when the cooling water is running.

Jay


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Lol, what kinda tow rig you dreaming up three44s....


The power is no problem ... a D9

The problem is how to tie the knot .... LOL

Best regards

Three44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay, we give ourselves a boost with patterning our wheel lines. Also cutting on wet ground.

The upper side gives us fits though because it's hot dry sagebrush right above that and there is only rattlesnakes from there to the timberline.

But you would not believe the air drainage all night long. We have nearly 1000 feet elevation gain over the local airport with the first 200 - 300 feet of drop right on our ranch. A twenty mph breeze is not unusual right up to sunrise. In the hottest weather I have seen it blow right through that as well.

Direct steam or a water spray in a separate op is the only way. I had a glimpse of the direct water with a fan several years ago but it took an un godly amount of water, one row and 275 gal of water, give it twenty minutes to soak in, bale at 20% moisture with preservative with heavy winds.

Maybe I should just take up golf and say to hadies with it! LOL

Best regards

Three44s


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

You have a perfect location for grass hay. Would be able to bale 24 hrs a day. No bleach and fast drying. Sounds like the perfect farm for timothy.


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

i built a dryer this year,, I dryed small squares at 60b, 30% moisture, bales are 33inches long ..I used a propane furnace with 1.2 million BTU. This unit will pay for its self this year alone


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay in WA said:


> You have a perfect location for grass hay. Would be able to bale 24 hrs a day. No bleach and fast drying. Sounds like the perfect farm for timothy.


Jay,

I realize that the dry baling conditions favor grass hay. I don't like writing big checks for nitrogen. I don't like what I consider a grass such as Timothy as not a truely good feed. I don't think it measures up to the likes of alfalfa or orchard grass.

I am situated good for the primary exporters of Timothy and have dealt with three of them, Ward Rugh, Anderson and Haberman #9.

On a tonnage basis I think we can compete pretty well with alfalfa when we get our soil and stands right. Alfalfa yields better during our hot weather than any of the cool season grasses.

That said feelings do not pay bills, bucks do. I would be foolish to ignore a possible crop alternative and reject it completely out of hand.

I will have to look into where Timothy truely sits nutritionally and what sort of drought and salt tolerance it has.

You might have just given me a "wild hair"!

Thank you

Three44s


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Chuck said:


> i built a dryer this year,, I dryed small squares at 60b, 30% moisture, bales are 33inches long ..I used a propane furnace with 1.2 million BTU. This unit will pay for its self this year alone


I like the sound of this, tell us some more. How many tons in a batch? How long to dry? How do the bales look and handle and is the odor different? Thanks


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Three44s said:


> Jay,
> I realize that the dry baling conditions favor grass hay. I don't like writing big checks for nitrogen. I don't like what I consider a grass such as Timothy as not a truely good feed. I don't think it measures up to the likes of alfalfa or orchard grass.
> I am situated good for the primary exporters of Timothy and have dealt with three of them, Ward Rugh, Anderson and Haberman #9.
> On a tonnage basis I think we can compete pretty well with alfalfa when we get our soil and stands right. Alfalfa yields better during our hot weather than any of the cool season grasses.
> ...


FWIW good timothy hay is highly sought by knowledgeable horse owners, so that may be a venue for you, in as much as for easy keepers alfalfa & clover are way too rich.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Trillium Farm said:


> FWIW good timothy hay is highly sought by knowledgeable horse owners, so that may be a venue for you, in as much as for easy keepers alfalfa & clover are way too rich.


I wish it was still that way here. Horsey folk here have turned a cold shoulder on Timothy with all the sugar hype. Orchard grass still has very good demand.

Regards, Mike


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

IH 1586 said:


> If only they knew what it takes to make hay. You are better off without them but hope you find someone to fill that void. That is a batch of bales. Not every year is going to be the same quality wise otherwise I would not be still putting 1st in the barn when last year I was done before the 4th of July.


As a thoroughbred horse owner, I personally don't care what it takes to make hay. Let me explain.

The investment I have in my horses is far and away the most costly part of my farm. So, the 'difficulty' in making hay has no meaning. I'm not going to decrease the feed quality for my investment, because of a rainy summer.

I'm not trying to bash your statement, but want to clarify why so many horse owners might seem overly 'picky' about feed/hay. For some, they just want what they perceive as best, for their animals/friends. For others, like myself, I want what is best for my investment. But... for others, they are just pains in the ass, and little will make them happy. But in all cases, the difficulty in making the product lies with the farmer and his price should reflect what he chooses to sell it for. Then, the buyer can choose from whom to purchase.

This is one reason why there is such a massive market for Western grown hay to be shipped into Kentucky and New York. The quality, given climate, is almost always excellent. The cost, to the owners, is worth it. Look up and call Creech Hay sales to see what some owners are willing to pay for a small square.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Vol said:


> I wish it was still that way here. Horsey folk here have turned a cold shoulder on Timothy with all the sugar hype. Orchard grass still has very good demand.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Gosh, haven't heard that! Good to know.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Vol said:


> I wish it was still that way here. Horsey folk here have turned a cold shoulder on Timothy with all the sugar hype. Orchard grass still has very good demand.
> 
> Regards, Mike


They'll be back for it
I'm done chasing horsey folks'forage whims. Good Timothy will find a buyer


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I wish it was still that way here. Horsey folk here have turned a cold shoulder on Timothy with all the sugar hype. Orchard grass still has very good demand.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 That is strange......It's not that way here in the Carolinas. Timothy is in very high demand as always. Wish I had some Timothy to sell.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

hillside hay said:


> They'll be back for it
> I'm done chasing horsey folks'forage whims. Good Timothy will find a buyer


That's my thoughts......the horsey folk blow like Mr. Breeze. Whatever some of these horse magazines protest, the horsey crowd parrots. One of my better customers was mentioning last summer about some lady horse prophet espousing the negatives of Timothy.....and how horses were becoming more insulin intolerant. I said you got to be kidding me.....I asked her if one person was the last word on horses and horse healthcare? She just looked at me. Like I said earlier, she is a good customer so I did not press it. She bought a gooseneck trailer load of prime Orchard grass just this past Monday.

Regards, Mike


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

SVFHAY,,, I put 400 bales in each trailer,,, this furnace will supply enough heat for 2 trailers. Each trailer has 2 ten hp fans under the trailer to blow the hot air through the bales. It will dry small squares or big squares. 30 % in big square takes 24hrs.. In small squares roughly the same or less. The bottom row always dryes first,,, I usually have hay waiting to be dried, so i will take hay out , and re dry top row latter,,,its the hardiest to dry. When I re dry the top rows,,, it takes only 6 hrs and its dry.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Thanks for info. I've had a very similar plan drafted for a few years. Economics never seem favorable and the time needed to manage and load/unload have prevented me from doing it. Conditions this year has my research folder back on my desk.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

When I think of hay making, I think of it from my perspective and that is from a western one.

I can visualize and wrap my mind around a machine that takes a windrow, dries it to some lower level and moves through a field until the job is complete. But taking a quantity of bales at a time and drying them in a block is not as easy for me to conceptualize.

But don't take offense to my statements.

I see two distinct paths to the same end.

One is a continuous motion drying a product that is still porous and thus more able to pass air through, and the other has the hay bunched up tight and is in batches and requires additional handling.

From my western perspective I think in terms of landscapes that are more expansive and quantities of forage in greater proportions.

With much more hay for our customers to choose from they can be more price conscious and our operating margins are thinner.

In the east dry hay is likely more scarce and customers have to cough up more money to purchase what they seek.

So it is in that economic environment that artificial drying of hay might be feasible but even then a more efficient method to that end will still win over the long haul because the market place always wins.

Three44s


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