# Low Cost Cattle Barn/Concrete Curbing



## PaMike

It looks like I am going to be buying some bare land and moving my operation off my parents ground/barn. I mainly graze holstein steers. I will be needing a low cost barn/handling/loading setup. Most of my cash is going to be tied up in the land, so for the time being I will need a real basic setup. I am thinking I will have a pole barn built, then do the rest myself.

My question is how to build the fencing and concrete curb I will need for the bedding pack. I have seen some guys use the pole barn posts as the posts for the fence. That concerns me due to the manure/post contact. Anyone have good Iuck with post life doing it that way? Also, I will need to have some sort of concrete curb to keep the bedding pack in. I have seen some guys make a curb by pouring concrete between the posts. That doesnt seam like it would be a strong curb since each piece between the post doesnt tie into the next piece. Also, how deep should the curb go? Can it "float" above the front line or should it be done like a footer would be? I was wondering it you couldnt drill some holes in the posts for rebar to tie the curb to the post. But, it the curb is above the front line the curb might heave and pull the post up. Concrete floor for the cattle is out of the question, so I think a packed clay base will be fine. I have very limited experiance with concrete, so any pointers on how to do things is appreciated.


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## cornshucker

Sometimes you see a sale where slightly damaged temporary highway barriers are for sale. These would work good but bear in mind they weigh between 4000 and 4400 pounds each so you have to have means of setting them. Check this website.

govdeals.com


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## PaMike

I didnt think of using them. You could bury them slightly...They would be a little less verstile than pouring a curb...


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## mlappin

I get 2x2x6 concrete blocks brand new from Redi Mix for $35 each, the length wouldn't work well for between the posts. I'd pour a footer, bring the curb up how ever high you want it, then buy the brackets that you can set 4x6 posts in and place those in the curb while pouring it.

You only get one chance for doing it right with concrete so don't skimp on the rebar, it's cheap actually so go overboard with it.

When we poured our drive over pit we poured a footer, then placed 5/8" rebar vertically every foot where the trucks would actually be driving over it, the other part 1/2"placed every 18", then we placed 1/2" rebar horizontally every 18".


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## PaMike

I thought about the precast blocks. I would have to find a way to grout them in or something to keep manure juice from leaking through....

In my area basic pole barns are dirt cheap(lots of amish contractors) so that's why I was thinking of going with a pole barn, then doing the additional work myself. I could have a footer poured, but that's where the contractors make their money, on the add ons...

If I poured a curb between the posts, with no concrete floor, do I need to go below the frost line?


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## mlappin

I think I would, a lot depends on your soil as well.

The two hoop buildings we have that are sitting on the concrete blocks, those blocks are sitting on top of the ground, haven't had any move around yet.

I'd wait a bit and see if somebody chimes in that might have a bit more experience with this.

I know our grain bins are poured with the footers not below the frostline.


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## Bgriffin856

Im not one for technical terms but why not just pour two or three foot walls then build on that? Put them below the frostline then two or three feet above ground. I guess that cost money though


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## swmnhay

Instead of digging a footing you could auger a hole and fill with concrete pouring the curb all at once tyeing it all together with rebar.auger a hole every 4' or so 4-6' deep.


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## Fowllife

Cy's way might work for you. You will need someway to hold everything together, pouring some piers would help.

If you just pour the curb between the post it will not hold up very well for you at all. Drilling into the post may actually make it worse. The post are not going to move but the curb will heave up with every frost & you will soon have broken curb and broken post. Even the way that Cy suggested will still let the curb move up & down, but the mass might keep it together.

I think the best short term solution is a combination of things that guys touched on a little. In my opinion, forget the pole barn for now and build a hoop building on precast blocks. Save up and build a good building with a full foundation, floor, and 3-4' poured walls. Then your hoop building could be used for hay storage, or you could sell it and use the blocks for a manure compost pile or whatever else.

I also don't think your compacted clay will work very well for a floor. It will only stay hard as long as it stays dry, with manure & wet weather I question how well it will stay dry. I would at least put lime, or better yet screening down.

How many head and how big of building are you thinking? If you are dead set on a pole barn without a floor & no foundation, make the curb as beefy as you can. Dig down a foot or two between the post and put your form on the outside of the post. Put 1/2" expansion material around the post so the curb cam move independent of the post. Pour the curb 12" wide and at least 12" above grade (2' high x 1' wide min. if 1' below grade.) Run as much rebar in it as you can.


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## Fowllife

To add, anything that you pour above the frost line will move. Going below the frost line is the best (right) way to do it, but yes it cost $$$. If you do not pour below frost depth make sure you curb can "float" without tearing up your building.

The precast blocks "sit" on the ground and can move up & down an inch or two and you don't notice because the hoop building moves too. Where you have issues is when part of the building heaves and the other doesn't, you shallow curb would move but you post would not.


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## PaMike

Fowlife-Thanks for all the pointers. Really gets me thinking. I run Holsteins on grass, so this is going to be a winter feeding/shelter area. Probably 20 feeder steers and 10 300 lb calves. My animals aren't on concrete much at all so I thought I might be able to save the expense and hassle. The large animals are outside all winter with nothing but woods for shelter. My current setup only has concrete in the 300 lb calf barn. The rest of my handling areas are dirt. It can be a mess but I also don't have trouble with cattle falling. I have heard of guys packing dirt, then putting a layer of lime on top of that.

Anybody know what sq feet/per animal is recommended for feeder cattle? I heard 40, but I don't know if that total confinement or just for shelter feeding.

I like the auger hole idea. That might be a good way to go.I could put posts on top of the concrete and keep the posts out of the manure.


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## Fowllife

Yes, 40 s.f. is for total confinement, usually in bed back barns. You can do less if it's just a shelter, but I would stick close to that. During bad weather they will all crowd in.

How are you going to feed them, in the barn?

What dimensions are you thinking of going? Depending on your building width I would lean towards getting a backhoe & digging a trench footer instead of setting it on piers. The shallow part of the curb would still have force from frost heave and I think over time it would tear the curb/foundation apart. If your soil is good (like hard clay) you can trench down to frost with a 12" bucket, then form the top for your curb. You would then have a frost wall to set your post on.


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## PaMike

I have a large a Steinway equipment bale feeder right now that I use for round bales. I was thinking of butting it against one side so that I could dump into it from the outside. That would keep me from having to open gates and drive the skidsteer in the manure. Another idea was to build a 3 sided feeder "peninsula" that the skidsteer could drive into. That would make cleaning it out easy. Just drive the skidsteer into it and scoop up the waste hay. Dump that out into the pen.

I really didn't figure out anything on size yet. I will need a couple things

-Large animal pen with access to pasture

-Small animal pen with access to different pasture

-Holding/sick pen

-Simple handling area and loading chute and ground level load area.

-Possibly manure storage(could add later as money is available

-Small room for supplies,drugs,boots etc.

I was thinking the chute and handling area can be outside the building. I don't use them that often, dirt gives good footing, and I don't need the expensive of a covered facility.

I like the idea of feeding under a building to keep all the manure under roof,but a big bale feeder takes up a lot of space. I see a lot of setups that have a covered loafing area, then a pad outside that has a row of bunks that they feed at. This keeps a lot of the manure out of the building, but I would think that would become a sloppy mess. Bed it and you go through tons of bedding everytime it rains/snows. Don't bed it and you have a soupy/slippery mess for the cattle. I am only setup to haul pen pack manure so liquid isn't an option.


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## FarmHand78

I'm in construction, my family builds post frame and steel frame buildings, (90% of witch is for ag use) but in no way am I an "expert" nor a structural engineer. But here is my $.02...

Best/ longest lasting:

Formed in place footing, set at or below frost line, with a formed concrete wall on top, and you curb extending to desired height. Here in SE Iowa, a 18"-24" wide x 8"-10" thick footer, with 3 lateral runs of 1/2" re-bar, and full height re-bar verticals 24" O.C. the end of the vertical should be bent and tied to footer bars. Walls would be 8-10" thick, re-bar 24" O.C. lateral tied to verticals. Bottom of footer would be 48" below grade, and my personal preference would be an 8' tall x 8" thick wall place on top of a 18" wide x 8" thick footer, 40" below grade, 56" exposed. The use either pour in place column "post" brackets, or use Large Diameter Tapcon's to bolt brackets to the foundation wall. Then build desired post frame building on top. Estimated local (SE Iowa) cost, $50-$55 per lineal foot of needed foundation. Post frame building cost base at $8 per square foot (including labor) and up depending on options needed.

Best bang for your buck, and a building that would not need to be temporary:

Dig a 10" wide trench, to your frost depth, then form your curb on top of that. pouring all at once. Save on Excavating, Total amount of materials, Back filling, and forming Labor. You can build on top of this in the same manner as the formed in place wall. Estimated local cost $25-$30 per lineal foot.

Smartest money spent for a true temporary Facility:

Pre cast concrete blocks, with (and it pains me to say this) a hoop "building" on top. It does the job and can be put up relatively quick. I believe my local concert yard charges $35per 2'x2'x5' block, less if bought my the semi truck load. And I really don't know the erected price of a hoop "building" would be.

I have tried pouring curb walls between column... trust me don't waist the money... We put up a dairy loafing shed almost 20 years ago, while the farmer was lacing the original bedding pack, he backed into one section and broke it all up, and over time it fell out, as have other sections. he wanted the cheapest concrete wall he could get. The reasons it failed is A: only 5 1/2" thick, B: was only into the ground 6-8", and B: nothing tying all of them together. Our engineer at that time would not allow us to run re-bar through the posts, saying it would weaken the structural integrity of the building to much. About 10 years ago we build him a new milking barn, at that time he had us go back and add 2x8 treated tongue and grove boards inside and out on the loafing shed.

Using the post hole method swmnhay mention above could work, but I would like to see the post holes, no more than 24" O.C. and be at least 18" in diameter. But when I do the math, you would use less concrete with the full 10" trench wall, then with the post holes. The reasons for the holes being place so close, is A: will not allow large areas of frost formation and cause heaving, and B: my engineer says so.

Numbers to know per Iowa State University Iowa Beef Center:

Total confinement, 40 square feet (sqft) per head

Shelter with Lot, 25 sqft

Earth Lot with no shelter, 250 sqft

Earth Lot with shelter, 225 sqft

Concrete lot with shelter, 50 sqft

As I tell all my customers, don't build for what you need today, build for what your goals are going to need in 5,10, 15 years. Yeah that is a total salesman line, but it is true. I have never had a customer say a building was to big once we where done (even on a 13 acre warehouse, we are adding 300,000 square feet to that building) Cost will always be higher down the road. Be smart, if needed save your money and build when you can.

Good Luck!

FarmHand78

Nathan


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## PaMike

Wow, thanks for all the info....something to think about.

So many options in buildings and trying to get the most bang for your buck is a challenge.


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## mlappin

Actually we run all our cattle together in the woods. They can go in the barn anytime they need a drink of water but prefer the woods. Don't forget, these are bovine and spent thousands of years outside before man thought they needed penned up inside.

Steers are kept in a different lot in the winter along with any heifers that are a questionable size/age when the bull is with the cows.


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## PaMike

I agree, I actually really prefer them outside. I have almost no health problems with cattle outside. But, when it gets real cold, and they have no place to stay dry is when I think I really lose. Esp with holsteins. We had one tough winter here, and I had trouble keeping them in good body condition. Dry shelter would have helped. Also, I have to have a building for the calves. They are too small for outside. I love running cattle in the woods. Its amazing how they really help to keep things trimmed back and eaten down. I bought some jersey steers from an organic grazer years ago. They went deep into the woods. Barely even came into the pasture at the edge of the woods. I had one heck of a time finding them. They would disappear for a week at a time....


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## PaMike

Been trying to dig up some used supplies for this project. Remembered a guy across town that fed steers is developing his farm. I saw him and asked him about salvaging some equipment out of the barn. He just looks at me. "We tore it down last month. I had 28 gates that the neighbor got."....Son of a bitch... I see the guy every thursday and it didnt cross my mind till now to ask him....


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## Fowllife

Are you finishing your steers or just back grounding? I have never had very good luck getting a good finish on dairy steers unless I can control the roughage/grazing. I have a couple in the fat pen right now and I can see them lose condition if I give them too much to graze. I just split the pasture by the barn to keep them in the woods and you can tell they slicked up some. I have never had that problem with my beef steers.

I need to build a new barn too, but I'm holding off until I can save the money to do it right. I want at least a 3' tall poured wall around the perimeter & a full concrete floor. A pen for steers that I can split in half to 2 groups if I need to, a pen for the cows, and a couple smaller calving/sick pens.

Farmhand did a good job explaining & putting cost to things. The frost depth in your area is probably at least 36" (I pulled the design drawings out for a job we did in your area a few years ago & footing were at 42". Commercial code usually is more conservative.)


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## PaMike

I buy a calf and run it up to maybe 1000 lb or so. They really have more frame than they should, but that's life. Some of the animals look good, and others a REAL tall and lean. Must be the Holstein genetics.

I just cant decide how I want to lay things out. I will need a sick pen plus two other pans. I don't really want to put an isle way in the barn. Covered barn space is too expensive to have an isle way big enough to get a skidsteer in...

How are you going to feed your animals? J Bunk?


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## Fowllife

How I feed them depends on the group. We feed all of our own beef calves out for freezer beef, and usually I try to pick up a couple extra head if I can find them. I will get them started by bucket feeding with some home made bunk (plastic 55 gallon barrels cut in half & bolted together) then switch them to a self feeder to finish. If I happen to have any dairy steers in the mix though I try to keep them on a self feeder the entire time. I try to make sure I don't get to much frame because I like to finish in the 1200 lb range.


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## PaMike

What type of self feeder do you have? I played with that idea a while back but have heard people having issues with bloat etc etc. I just sold some big frame Holsteins, weighted 1200 each and needed another couple hundred lbs to fill them out. 1200 @1.3/lb makes me happy...


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## Fowllife

Well, my feeder is actually an old re-purposed wooden hog feeder that I picked up at an auction. I have no clue what brand it is, if any. It always sits in a building so being covered doesn't matter. I just opened the slide gates all the way up & set it on blocks and it works just fine.

I haven't had any issues with bloat at all. They do have access to pasture for some grazing, and a feed a few pounds of hay a day. The seem to self regulate right at about 2% intake per day.

What are you currently feeding? Do you feed something with Monensin in it (or another ruminesent in it)


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## PaMike

Currently just grass with a liquid molasses in a lick tank. Used to feed soyhulls and distillers mix. What are you putting in the self feeder? Do you feel the Monensin makes a difference?


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## Fowllife

I like to feed ground ear corn with a steak maker pelleted feed, but lately it has just been ground corn with the pellets. I pick a few loads of ear corn every fall and when that is gone I switch to shelled corn. The pellet I usually feed has a rumensin (monensin) in it which I do prefer. My wife decided she could get more of a premium for "natural" beef so we switched to a "natural" concentrate a few months ago. I prefer the stuff with the rumensin in it. We have had more issues with scours since switching.

If we ran more head I would bunk feed every day, but for the numbers we run it easier to just grind & fill the feeder. I can adjust my protein content of the feed pretty easy by adjusting the amount of concentrate I add when grinding feed.

I would like to feed some kind of by product but I haven't yet. I may look into getting some DDG in a couple months when my next batch of hogs get bigger.


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## PaMike

I was buying distillers back when corn was high. Now that corn is where its at I would think you might as well stick that shell corn. I don't have much tillable ground, but lots of hay ground so my main objective is to feed as much hay as possible while still feeding some gain to fill them out. The molasses helps, but I def haven't hit the sweet spot yet. Hopefully once I get a new facility built I can get some bunks, or a bin, or a self feeder. Something...Now I am feeding round bales in the middle of the pasture....


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