# Should I get out of small bales??



## JD3430

Tell me what you all think:

1. I am basically a one-man band and at 40+ feeling "older" these days, although I love hard work. I have 150 acres under contract and no shortage of others inquiring about my services.
2. My son wants to help, but he's an athlete and is not often available.
3. I don't like the attitudes of most small hay bale buyers. They beat me to death on price, and there's no shortage of sellers at $3/bale.
4. I can round bale my balls off, work alone, and barely leave the tractor seat. Round bales pay less, but not that much less and they make fast work of big fields.
5. Round bales present few storage issues. Square bales require me to basically be a "squatter" at a customer's barn. Don't know how much longer he's gonna put up with me.
6. I have a constant source of round bale customers (mushroom growers)
7. All the big guys around me do big squares or rounds-mostly for mushroom hay
8. Most of my round bales going to mushroom hay means bales can have more weeds and higher moisture content. IOW, I can make lower quality hay (easier, faster).
9. I actually have 2 round bale customers who own cattle, so I can make some nice hay on a couple of my nicer fields when I'm able.

I like the "fine art" of making horse hay in small bales, but I admit, it's a PITA and with another job, it's tougher than the less than perfect round bales.

I'm ready to advertise my square baler and bale basket, but wondered if I'd have regrets? My gut says "hurry up and sell them before hay season ends". My heart says "wait a little while, you might regret it".

Oh,,,,, and I could use the money to put towards more "high production" equipment, too.


----------



## Colby

Do whatever keeps the most money and your pocket and is easy on you.

Here a coastal 4x5- ill sell for $70-85
60# coastal square- $7-8

It's supply and demand..


----------



## GeneRector

Howdy! You just have to do the pencil and paper calculations to see what is better for you. If you can find plenty of square bale buyers, you might can sell out of the field to some customers. Others may want delivery. However, you need to charge extra for these services. Allocate an amount per square bale or round bale to cover all of your costs plus profit. Right now square bales are going for up to $10 per bale in some parts of Texas. Good luck! I know the hay business can be a bear at times. Always, Gene


----------



## CockrellHillFarms

4. I can round bale my balls off, work alone, and barely leave the tractor seat. Round bales pay less, but not that much less and they make fast work of big fields.

I would beg to diff on this point. One 5x6 round bale is 30 squares. 1 rnd 1800lb = 30 sq. (60 lbs). On a normal year, squares bring 4.25x30= $127.50 vs. a 50-60 dollar round bale of brome. YOU CANT USE DROUGHT NUMBERS AS YOUR BASIS for making money. So....the question would be. What are you making on your hay? Prices? Every where is different as we all have established on this site many times. I do think I remember reading some where, where you were making some pretty good money on your mushroom hay. Obviously, they is more hard earned money in the squares. Just like a home, do you pay the guy down the road to paint your house? Or do you bust ur butt, paint it urself, and put some sweat equity into it? Same difference in round bales vs. squares, in my opinion. I've come to realize myself that I provide a very good service to my customers. I provide premium brome hay at a fair price with delivery. I have no problems with people and prices. (not that it never happens). I hardly ever touch a bale. But the customer doesnt care how I get it there, its there on time and they dont have to worry about it. So point being, find a niche that works for u. U might need to re-access your equipment. A good square baler is a good piece of farm equipment, if its paid for, dont get rid of it. But, maybe you take that bale basket and buy an accumulator? I'm just throwing out ideas and thoughts. I bet there's an untapped customer base that you havent found. There's no doubt that as you get older, squares a much harder. I'm young, so I can say that, but dont experience this myself. However, my dad is in his 60's and would attest to what your saying! But as time has gone on, we have improved our equipment and techniques in order to be more efficient. If there was good money in round bales, I wouldnt be in the square business. But you cant make much money doing it in my opinion. It pays the bills so to speak, but it doesnt make money. Hard work makes money. And squares to me is where the money happens to be. Two men and a truck, is what we always refer to our self's as. haha. We are able to do 10,000 squares, 1,000 round bales, and run cattle, both with full time day jobs. It isnt easy, but its possible. Refine your process and you will be amazed at what you can do.


----------



## CockrellHillFarms

Let me add one thing to that........if square bales were easy, everyone would be doing it. Its not for everyone but neither is farming.


----------



## JD3430

Good points you make. I think the difference with me is I live in an area that has a unique demand. The demand is for mushroom hay. I do own/operate another business. Sometimes I have to leave hay lay in the sun longer than I like, or bale hay that's more moist than I like ahead of rain. This will work for mushroom hay, but not horse quality hay. I did 1,600 small bales all by my lonesome so far this year with another cutting yet to go. Puny numbers to some of you guys, but not easy by myself.
The round bales just get you off the field so fast! Allows me to get other things done! I like the ease of handling. I can get $75-$80 for a 4x5 at 800lbs from my cattle customers delivered a short distance. That works out to almost $5 per 50 lb square bale. Not too shabby for around here and a hell of a lot less grunt work. I realize mushroom hay is 1/2 that, much lower paying.

I dunno....just throwing out the possibility of doing all rounds.........don't much care for the older, tightwad horse women, the ones that beat you down. And I might lose my barn at any given time since the property is for sale. I can sell the rounds at a decent, relatively stable price with a lot less fussin around.........


----------



## Canderson012

An average 4x5 to 4x5.5 round bale in Mid GA is usually worth $40 to $60. You can get 20-25 squares in a round bale. Squares go for $4-$6 bucks. So yes, there is more money in square but a lot more storage and pickup cost than round bale. I don't know anything about mushroom growing but good hay should go to a hungry animal not decomposing salad toppings haha. Do what you want man, you may miss some square customers.


----------



## Vol

JD3430,

I think you already know the answer deep down inside.....do what will make your life better....life is very, very short....you do not need "our" advice.

Regards, Mike


----------



## JD3430

Canderson012 said:


> An average 4x5 to 4x5.5 round bale in Mid GA is usually worth $40 to $60. You can get 20-25 squares in a round bale. Squares go for $4-$6 bucks. So yes, there is more money in square but a lot more storage and pickup cost than round bale. I don't know anything about mushroom growing *but good hay should go to a hungry animal not decomposing salad toppings haha. *Do what you want man, you may miss some square customers.


LOL!! That was funny.
Yes, you are right. I do have some round bales going to feeding cattle, but 80% are going to mushroom.
I think it allows me to be a little less invested in spraying, weed control, barns, storage and pysical handling.
I do like the money in bricks, but if you can't handle the work load and logistics.......

Money from small baler and basket could also be used to help offset new round baler costs


----------



## Tim/South

I kept my square baler. It is old and paid for. I only make square bales for two long time cowboy friend customers. They pick it up in the field and pay me what ever the going rate is, usually $4.
The rest I roll.
The square bale horse market kept us in the hay business for many years. Times have changed in our area. Every one who owns a horse and can google has become a hay expert. Much like PVC made everyone a plumber.
I had decided to either buy an accumulator or go round. I retired from my paying job, bought some more momma cows and decided round was best for me.
I only know one guy who still makes small squares in our area.
Many of the horse people have learned that rounds are a better bargain and have built covers to feed a roll outside.


----------



## Nitram

You have received the best advice possible. Covers both sides of the issue. If you want to make the best money keep square. I think you should do what ever keeps you above water. I would like to have a square baler around for special occasions but the price and like you Its only me working with some help from #1 son on the weekends. I am able to rap em up and on the field till I have the opportunity to move them (usually one day to two weeks). If you have the money to buy a accumulator and two farmhands one for the field and one for the barn with two tractors to put them on I would vote for keep making squares. You could be a one man band. I started out making rolls for my cows now I make extra for others, I try not to over extend myself, money and time wise. I am small time by many others standards but I understand where you are and your questions often hit close to home. Martin


----------



## somedevildawg

I like that analogy Tim, when they came out with pex that really put alot of "plumbers" out of the business and now you have few real plumbers, not unlike mechanics. JD if you put up 1600 by yourself or even with your son, my hats off to you, you really busted your ass. The problem is storage with squares, handling has become more mechanized, just pay for the fossil fuels, lot less work, but storage always rears it head. I would try to presell those squares and have them pick up out of the field....money just ain't there on rounds to me in this area. Round at 900lbs go for 50-60 here, squares 5-6 that's a bit of difference. Now if you have to store them, you will need to build your own barn or find one to rent, and that's the problem, Another expenditure. So if I had some customers I would bale for them and have em pick it up outta field. If not, you need to buy some type of bale handling equipment and build or rent a barn to store them in, then ask yourself after all this money, can I sell a bale of hay for 3$? I think the answer is no. But you can do it and make the same 3$ by having them pick it up outta field. The other thing to consider is the reliability of your existing baler, there is not much worse than a square baler that is acting up, can really get on my nerves. Once again hats off on the squares u put up, that will make an old man outta you fast!


----------



## Waterway64

*I would recommend studying a larger market area. For myself the small squares were to slow and labor intensive. The rounds work good in most loal operations here but truckers do not like them in interstate hauling. This region produces lots of hay..... generally the lowest priced hay in the United States. Toget top prices I needed to move my hay into markets 200 to 800 miles away. I now have a older 3x3x8 square baler.*
* Idealy I would put up 1st as haylage and quickly get rid of weevils. In poor drying weather I like to round bale it for my cattle. The rest of my hay I would put in large squares and shipp where ever the best prices are.*
* my .02 Mel*


----------



## Tim/South

I really like this discussion.
There are many here who run big operations. There are some who seem to be one man shows, with the help of a son or relatives.
Something Mike said struck a note with me.
Do what makes you happy, what you feel the most comfortable with.
I am older than dirt and can still throw hay better than anyone I can hire. I just got tired of selling small squares a few bales at a time. Got tired of having to load 10 bales in a pick up truck after dark, working my day around being at home when someone was coming to get hay after they got off work (then maybe not show up). I got tired of cutting a few extra acres because someone just had to get hay, then have them not show up and have to haul an extra 200 by myself (after I had already put up 500 or so). My daughter learned to stack the goose and drive a stick shift. Neither she or my son ever once balked at helping me with hay.
Then I have some 6'4" buff guy complain about how much work it is to stack 40 bales on a pick up. Childs play.

After Dad got old and quit haying, he told me I was going to work myself to death and never really make any good money in hay.
Rounds are such a relief to me. Buying a V rake last year was a blessing. Buying a new round baler was a blessing.
I no longer get stressed when I have hay on the ground.
I may not make as much money in round bales as I could in squares.
I have a lot less headache.
I guess it is because for the first time in the hay business I do not have to depend on anyone else. I do not have to work around their schedules. There is no part of round baling I can not do by myself, and do it well.
My son loves helping with hay now. Before, he saw it as a necessary evil.
I can see myself doing this a long time.


----------



## JD3430

> Rounds are such a relief to me. Buying a V rake last year was a blessing. Buying a new round baler was a blessing.
> I no longer get stressed when I have hay on the ground.
> I may not make as much money in round bales as I could in squares.
> I have a lot less headache.
> I guess it is because for the first time in the hay business I do not have to depend on anyone else. I do not have to work around their schedules. There is no part of round baling I can not do by myself, and do it well.
> My son loves helping with hay now. Before, he saw it as a necessary evil.
> I can see myself doing this a long time.


I couldn't have said it better myself. I realized this after a short time in the business.
Nothing against those who make small squares. I look at making small square horse-quality hay compared to round bales like finish carpentry compared to rough framing. (I am a framing carpenter and a builder).
If I had to hire someone to build a perfect house, it would be a finish carpenter. They'd be slow, but the thing would be built square, plumb and level.


----------



## urednecku

Vol said:


> JD3430,
> 
> I think you already know the answer deep down inside.....do what will make your life better....life is very, very short....you do not need "our" advice.
> 
> Regards, Mike


What Mike said.

Somebody once told me to flip a coin. The second it leaves your thumb, you know the answer.


----------



## SVFHAY

I think a small guy getting started needs to concentrate on quality regardless of bale shape. Storage is your issue. A clear span building would let you stack smalls, rounds or 3x's quicker/easier. In our climate stored hay will sell every year. Hard to build a reputation on moldy rotten rounds. Eastern Pa. is a strong market for good product in package of your choice. Keep it dry and double your price.

The shroom hay deal is tough for a small guy. That deal is set up for 4x's and big operators. I hauled my first shroom hay in winter of '92 at price of $100 per ton. I bought local smalls for $50 and deliverd semi loads 200 miles. Tried to do 3 turns a week while keeping regular delivery schedule. Pretty soon price started to drop. At $85 I quit and haven't been back. Many years non contract hay was $65. I have seen several guys go bust trying to ship from this area. When corn goes down so will mulch price.

Make that last cutting in smalls and raise your price. If you sell your small bale equipment over the winter that's just more market for me!

A buddy called me this evening who makes small bales by stacking by hand on flatbed wagons pulled behind the baler. He has two teenage sons and a nephew that helps him. I asked how many bales so far this year-------32,000---- wow.


----------



## FCF

SVFHAY said:


> I think a small guy getting started needs to concentrate on quality regardless of bale shape. Storage is your issue. A clear span building would let you stack smalls, rounds or 3x's quicker/easier. In our climate stored hay will sell every year. Hard to build a reputation on moldy rotten rounds. Eastern Pa. is a strong market for good product in package of your choice. Keep it dry and double your price.
> 
> The shroom hay deal is tough for a small guy. That deal is set up for 4x's and big operators. I hauled my first shroom hay in winter of '92 at price of $100 per ton. I bought local smalls for $50 and deliverd semi loads 200 miles. Tried to do 3 turns a week while keeping regular delivery schedule. Pretty soon price started to drop. At $85 I quit and haven't been back. Many years non contract hay was $65. I have seen several guys go bust trying to ship from this area. When corn goes down so will mulch price.
> 
> Make that last cutting in smalls and raise your price. If you sell your small bale equipment over the winter that's just more market for me!
> 
> A buddy called me this evening who makes small bales by stacking by hand on flatbed wagons pulled behind the baler. He has two teenage sons and a nephew that helps him. I asked how many bales so far this year-------32,000---- wow.


I agree about quality issue, at least for small squares. When we moved to this area we found that what was called "horse quality" here would have been lucky to be cow hay in the mid-atlantic. This is our third year here and all of the hay I have made is spoken for and most of it paid for. We started selling 1 to 40 bales three years ago to I don't know how many customers. This year I all the hay has gone to horse people and the newest customer asked me to supply all of his hay next year; which I can't do because I need to take care of the estibalished customers. It's a nice feeling to have knowing you supply a quality product at a reasonable price and people will beat a path to your door. Yes I have a NH 648 baler for those that want rounds or lower quality, but the bulk of the hay is small squares. We use a bale thrower so the only handling is undloading and stacking at the barn. Have covered storage space for the wagons if we get tired or weather threathens. Bottom line QUALITY SELLS! It will take a while to earn a good reputation.


----------



## JD3430

Good points, bu I could lose the barn now that it's up for sale and don't have the property to build a barn on. I don't live on a farm. I could at least build the barn myself, but no property for underneath it. I'd almost rather concentrate on finding more property to farm hay in round bales.
Great advice from all and thanks. Good thing is I don't have to make any snap decisions right now.


----------



## swmnhay

_The older I get the less stress I want.Round bales are alot less stressful then sm sqrs._

_HERE._

_There is very little price difference no matter what kind of bale.Rds,Lg sqrs or sm sqrs.If I could get atleast a $100 a ton more before I even thought about it._

_No storage costs for me it is all stored outside.Well made bales keep fine outside and sell as well as inside hay in rds here._

_One line of eq with just rds,so one less to keep up.I sold my sq baler and accum and trade my rd baler more often for new._

_Speed of baling,huge difference.I baled 35 acres of light hay other day in 1.5 hrs._

_Customers here for sm sqrs would only be horsey people.I'm pretty much done with them.Sick of excuses and whineing._

_Soooo anyway unless I got pd quite well for making sm sqrs I'd say go the easier sinple route with lg rds._

_KISS method._

_Keep It Simple Stupid







_


----------



## Fowllife

Well I agree with pretty much everything that has been posted. I am in a similar situation as you are. I have come to the conclusion that I don't really want to deal with the picky horse people that want high quality hay for mulch hay prices. I decided that we are going to get a round baler and a better square baler. Yes, round bales are a PITA, but with good quality and good customers they can get you through the lean times. Plus eventually you will thank yourself if you keep your small square. Eventually your round baler will break, usually Saturday at 1pm with rain coming on Sunday. There is a lot of piece of mind to knowing you can just switch balers out and keep going.


----------



## Vol

I am going to tell you fellas how I deal with some of the BS when first time square buyers come to my place. I am polite, but I am very blunt when stating anything factual to the prospective buyer. If they start the "is that the best you can do" routine I tell them if they want cheap stuff....go to a flea market...I only sell top quality. I do not try to be friends with them and they can sense it, but I am NEVER rude...unless, of course, I have a total jackass and it usually does not take long for them to figure out they are at the wrong place. For the mostpart, you cannot be "nice" to prospective buyers.....I have tried that and thats when the crap starts. Seems like they want the hay more and respect you more when you become "matter of fact" about all dealings.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Josh in WNY

As many have stated here already, there is a lot of good advise that has already been given. I think the most important bit is "Do what works for you".

In my case, I have a barn already (not quite what I need, but it works) as well as all of my own fields and I live right on the farm. The operation has been set up so that we use a NH stacker wagon to handle the bales and almost all of our sales are by the tractor trailer load to Florida. Like you, I am on the small production side of things at about 3,000 bales a year (both 1st and 2nd cutting) I have one customer who buys a mix of small squares and round out of the field, but he has always been good about getting the hay gone on time. Other things have also been done to improve efficiency in the operation such as tandem rake hitches, going to a rotary mower/conditioner vs. the old sickbar style, etc.

I guess the best advise I could give would be to look at all of the different options in both you markets as well as your equipment choices and do what works for you. If I were in your shoes, I might be inclined to keep the baler at least until next spring (when there are going to be a lot of folks looking for an upgrade) and consider doing only a limited amount of small squares for the customers that haven't been a pain and are willing to work with you as far as getting the hay out of the field. The rest could be done in rounds.

Good luck with what ever you decide.


----------



## swmnhay

Vol said:


> I am going to tell you fellas how I deal with some of the BS when first time square buyers come to my place. I am polite, but I am very blunt when stating anything factual to the prospective buyer. If they start the "is that the best you can do" routine I tell them if they want cheap stuff....go to a flea market...I only sell top quality. I do not try to be friends with them and they can sense it, but I am NEVER rude...unless, of course, I have a total jackass and it usually does not take long for them to figure out they are at the wrong place. For the mostpart, you cannot be "nice" to prospective buyers.....I have tried that and thats when the crap starts. Seems like they want the hay more and respect you more when you become "matter of fact" about all dealings.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Give them a inch and they want a mile..I won't dicker anymore what it is is what it is.


----------



## Tim/South

I agree that quality is the key. I take care of all hay as if it was going to be square baled or round.
My mind frame is the only difference in square and round is the shape of the bale.

It has been nice sitting around this campfire and sharing.


----------



## slowzuki

I've enjoyed the discussion on this. We started at 700 square bales a year owning nothing but land and a square baler. Up to 5000+ bales a year that would instantly jump to 10-15,000 bales if we paid for more nitrogen and lime.

We work off the ground and from behind the chute onto the wagon. This year there was me usually operating equipment, once in a while my brother in law raking, my sister stacking and a woman who owes us a lot of favours stacking or loading, sometimes my dad helps but he can't work too hard now. Picking up the hay is no problem for us, its the storage issue, putting it up into the old dairy barn mow kills us.

I can see with no land you're in a bit of a bad spot, if you get evicted where does the hay go etc. If I were in your position I'd be looking to round bale as well as keep the square baler to fill orders that don't need to be stored.

Up here round bales are worthless, we're talking 10-20$ for a 4x4, 25-30$ for a 5x4. You only round bale if you're feeding it to your own animals.


----------



## somedevildawg

Easy to see why I went to the bale bandit, my hand and I put approx 350 bales in the barn in 3 1/2 hours last week, didn't hardly break a sweat.......but it is a plus to have another baler in case.....we do rounds on first cut always. Usually a bit weedy, cattleman buys it all....cheap....


----------



## urednecku

If storage is the main problem with squares, what about round baling to store the majority of your hay, then use an un-roller to roll them out & re-bale in squares as needed? (I admit I don't known anything about them.) I have heard of people doing that. Just a thought.


----------



## FCF

Vol said:


> I am going to tell you fellas how I deal with some of the BS when first time square buyers come to my place. I am polite, but I am very blunt when stating anything factual to the prospective buyer. If they start the "is that the best you can do" routine I tell them if they want cheap stuff....go to a flea market...I only sell top quality. I do not try to be friends with them and they can sense it, but I am NEVER rude...unless, of course, I have a total jackass and it usually does not take long for them to figure out they are at the wrong place. For the mostpart, you cannot be "nice" to prospective buyers.....I have tried that and thats when the crap starts. Seems like they want the hay more and respect you more when you become "matter of fact" about all dealings.
> 
> Regards, Mike


When we moved to KY I would dicker with the people because I was "a new kid on the block". After getting a large field reseeded and having repeat customers buying at least 200 to 300 bales there has not been anyone of them that asks for a lower price. I had one new fellow last winter that I told him we didn't have any horse hay only older, 2-3 years, hay and he insisted he needed hay and took some. Then called about a week later saying it was moldy and not of good quality. Told him to bring it back, which he did in a pouring rain in an uncovered truck. He then wanted to look at some other hay that was paid for and couldn't understand why I wouldn't sell it to him, He also want to pick and choose which bales he might want. I told him no picking and choosing and he shouldn't be hauling hay uncovered in the rain. I then got a cussing out that it was going to be his hay and he could do whatever he wanted. He was told, not asked, to leave. Don't need goofballs like that for customers.


----------



## endrow

I have baled and sold hay all my life in central Pa. Hay that is baled and stored outside.has very little resale value .


----------



## Tim/South

somedevildawg said:


> If storage is the main problem with squares, what about round baling to store the majority of your hay, then use an un-roller to roll them out & re-bale in squares as needed? (I admit I don't known anything about them.) I have heard of people doing that. Just a thought.


The same friend mentioned above did this with wheat straw one year. He was able to buy rolls cheap then make them into squares. It was well worth his time.
He also tried it with his "horse hay" one year. It did alright but was a good bit of work. He bought the accumulator the next year.
I remember a few years ago reading about a man who designed an unrulier that fed into a stationary baler. He rolled all of his hay then square baled it under a roof during the winter. Back then the outfit cost @ 100 k. Pretty neat design for a working guy trying to figure out how to stay afloat.


----------



## somedevildawg

Guy down here has one of those Tim, has it in a big building and has the unroller, works good for the wheat straw, works good for Bermuda, the problem that he has run into is leaf shatter. He said it gets so dusty and leaves fall off and shatter badly, makes it very hard to work around it while the app is working. Everyone has to wear respirators, eyes hurt, just a mess. He said if he rolls with a good bit of moisture and unrolls quickly it works very good, but baling dry hay is problematic for him, workers complain, nasty, big time fire potential. It's been unused the last couple of years.....great idea,tho


----------



## urednecku

I paid for my 336 baler by rolling out about 11 or so rounds & re-baling. I rolled em out with the fel, and by hand. LOTS of work, but he wanted squares that bad.


----------



## dbergh

JD3430:
Each operation and market is different and therefore one has to make their own decision in these situations but here are a couple of reasons we continue to put up small bales as well as big squares:
It gives us a diversity of customer bases we can sell into. 
If we put everything in large squares here we are competing with every producer in a 100 mile radius to sell our product.
In our case we can be price makers rather than price takers to a certain extent. Small bales are a niche here for us.
In our case we don't have to handle any of the small bales as we have mechanized everything as much as possible and this reduces the work load to a minimum.

You have valid points in your thoughts and if you have a stable and steady market for your rounds that is profitable for you then that is probably a good fit. Work load and quality of life are very important especially we get a little age on us!
If you don't owe anything on your small bale equip. I would recommend that you hang onto it and you can easily get back into it if the market were to dictate that was the thing to do.
Good Luck!
Dave.


----------



## JD3430

I think that the addition of a FEL accumulator and customers that would buy out of field, I could make it happen, but the chances of baling in the mid-atlantic between rains and having customers show up in a timely manner are not that great.
The barn (or possible lack thereof) is the problem.


----------



## aawhite

Would one f your landlords let you put up some type of portable shelter for the hay? There are some pretty inexpensive designs in Farmtek that might work. Would take a small bit out of production, but worth it to get hay under roof.


----------



## Nitram

I would approach it thusly :
If I could sell everything I have in the type of bale I prefer to make at a reasonable profit there is no way I would kill my self making something I don't have to. Given that this is not your sole source of income.
That said you have started building your reputation and I presume you have buyers that'll be expecting hay in small squares next year. Perhaps talk to them and they may have a solution to your storage problem.
Also unless you can make serious profit on your sm baler or it gives you fits or...you need the capital keep it! Like ******* said it may pay big dividends at some point.
Remember you got into this for the desire of doing what you like and making some extra cash (if I remember correctly ) Martin


----------



## NDVA HAYMAN

JD, Not to complicate things but maybe look at renting some ground and running some cattle. That way, you could feed the hay you make and maybe come out a little better. I raise cattle and sell to customers that are willing to pay a decent price. Mike


----------



## JD3430

Wow, great insights and ideas. I REALLY appreciate the ideas.

My situation is fluid and kind of quirky, as I'm sure your some of your individual situations are. None of my customers are under any obligation to keep me around. Add to that my inexperience and it makes the decision tough.
Love the idea of a portable Farmtek-type building, I may try to ask one of my customers, but not probably going to happen.

Nobody's beating my door down for my NH-311 and EZ Trail wagon, either (have it advertised for ~$8,000).
Game plan (today) is to make bales for 3rd cutting and see what happens.
I think that some stored square bales over the winter may bring in some much needed cash after rounds are long gone.


----------



## whitmerlegacyfarm

Hey JD, with my short experience in trying to buy all my old hay equipment the last 2 yrs, i found fall is the best time to buy Not sell. I bought all my stuff last fall for ridiculously low prices, this is the time of year people get into the situation you are in or got a new piece and just don't want to store the older piece due to limited storage. I have 2 balers, 2 haybines, rake, tedder, and 2 wagons. I paid under 4k for all last fall made over 1200 sm sq bales this year w/ most of it. All by just droppin and stackin on a wagon. Its defently is not a money maker what so ever for me and takes up a lot a time, but there's just something about it that i love. I would have to agree to hold on to the sm sq baler they seem to hold there value well. It's tough to sell it now this time of year because everyone has hay in our area JD.

Give it till Feb. or so and small squares will go quick. Last spring early may i advertised i was going to start baling a few weeks and the phone blew up, all your horse people were out and they find out that to get by they are buying it for 6 bucks a bale from a feed store that 4 or 5 a bale sounds great for hay.

I surely would make more money if i just stayed on the Job Site and layed more Tile Floors or showers lol, but you got to have some fun and get away from it all.


----------



## mlappin

I quite making small squares years ago one spring when I tweaked my back and went all rounds for first cutting, after not having to deal with help, being in a hay loft when it was 95+ degrees and not having to deal with horsey folks I bought a better round baler, sold the NH276 and never looked back. Actually make a lot more hay now by myself than I could before with idiot bricks and a lot of rather questionable help.

BUT, we have a good market here for rounds, usually sell as well as large squares and some years sell as well as small squares. Horsey people eventually came around to using rounds as well







one year 60% of my rounds went to horses.

BUT, this is quality hay, not rained on before or after baling, stored inside on edge to facilitate breathing out and if I do get a questionable bale while loading the truck it doesn't go in the load. The edges exposed to the sun bleach and I make sure at least a few of those are showing as well so nobody gets a surprise when I dump them. Basically from all the years of selling hay at the auctions we have a very reputable name in the hay business and people know they won't be disappointed when they feed it.

Sounds to me like you might want to look into a Clearspan building of some sort to increase your storage. Even here with a good market for rounds, anything stored outside usually doesn't sell well at all. What we keep outside is what we feed our cows and Dads ex-girlfriends nags, the good stuff is inside.


----------



## hay wilson in TX

1. I am basically a one-man band and at 40+ feeling "older" these days, although I love hard work. I have 150 acres under contract and no shortage of others inquiring about my services.
I am 80 and this is a one man band. Stack hay with a NH bale wagon into a barn that is designed to work with a bale wagon.
You may rather go with an accumulator and a grab to pick up hay. 
You will find that baling for a bale wagon or accumulator you will be paying more attention to bale length.

3. I don't like the attitudes of most small hay bale buyers. They beat me to death on price, and there's no shortage of sellers at $3/bale.

Quality grass hay here goes for $8 bale, alfalfa at $10. The key word is quality. Bar Ditch hay may sell for $3 a bale and at that there is still very little profit. Buyers still want to pay $30 for a $120 round bale of hay.

4. I can round bale my balls off, work alone, and barely leave the tractor seat. Round bales pay less, but not that much less and they make fast work of big fields. Sounds good but does not work in practice.

5. Round bales present few storage issues. Square bales require me to basically be a "squatter" at a customer's barn. Don't know how much longer he's gonna put up with me.
That is a management decision you will have to make for your self.

6. I have a constant source of round bale customers (mushroom growers)
Now what has not been mentioned is the loss of quality and quantity with round bales compared to square. 
You will find under the best of conditions a round bale will test 1% lower protein, but average in the 2% CP range. 
Round bale at less than 55% Humidity or 12% moisture and you can leave a third of the hay scattered on the ground behind the baler.

8. Most of my round bales going to mushroom hay means bales can have more weeds and higher moisture content. IOW, I can make lower quality hay (easier, faster).
This a factor that may match your management style.

9. I actually have 2 round bale customers who own cattle, so I can make some nice hay on a couple of my nicer fields when I'm able.

I'm ready to advertise my square baler and bale basket, but wondered if I'd have regrets? My gut says "hurry up and sell them before hay season ends". My heart says "wait a little while, you might regret it".

A round baler usually requires more horse power than a square baler. 
My neighbor's cost to round bale is close to $400 an hour. With net wrap he can kick 40 bales an hour out the back. (String wrap limits you to about 20 bales an hour.)

I have never understood the attraction of using a bale basket. 
Let you neighbors fight over who will stack hay into a chicken coop.
Put up a pole barn for your on farm storage.

You may make more money with a good garden, some chickens, and a couple of milk cows or goats

Note I can not get the color to work.


----------



## JD3430

I think I just got taken to the woodshed.







lol


----------



## JD3430

mlappin said:


> I quite making small squares years ago one spring when I tweaked my back and went all rounds for first cutting, after not having to deal with help, being in a hay loft when it was 95+ degrees and not having to deal with horsey folks I bought a better round baler, sold the NH276 and never looked back. Actually make a lot more hay now by myself than I could before with idiot bricks and a lot of rather questionable help.
> 
> BUT, we have a good market here for rounds, usually sell as well as large squares and some years sell as well as small squares. Horsey people eventually came around to using rounds as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> one year 60% of my rounds went to horses.
> 
> BUT, this is quality hay, not rained on before or after baling, stored inside on edge to facilitate breathing out and if I do get a questionable bale while loading the truck it doesn't go in the load. The edges exposed to the sun bleach and I make sure at least a few of those are showing as well so nobody gets a surprise when I dump them. Basically from all the years of selling hay at the auctions we have a very reputable name in the hay business and people know they won't be disappointed when they feed it.
> 
> Sounds to me like you might want to look into a Clearspan building of some sort to increase your storage. Even here with a good market for rounds, anything stored outside usually doesn't sell well at all. What we keep outside is what we feed our cows and Dads ex-girlfriends nags, the good stuff is inside.


I won't give up trying to make quality hay on a couple fields, but some of the larger fields I have look more like "natural meadows". Would take a lot of $$ to turn them into pristine hay. Sure, it would pay more as pristine hay, but the mulch hay market is so easy to be a part of around here.
I think my market is very unique and different from most other hay farmers in that the mulch hay isn't fed to livestock. I'm not going to make myself feel guilty that I can round bale below average hay and sell it to the mushroom industry. The mushroom guys pay $110/ton if it's baled weeds/grass or pristine hay, so why spend more money improving the fields to anything more than what is required? By the looks of my hay, it's better than most of what I see in the mushroom company yards anyway.
My goal is I will keep improving my best fields to make better hay for the few horse/cattle hay customers I already have. In the future as more money comes available to invest in improving hay quality and equipment, I will.
I'm only in my first full year.


----------



## Will 400m

The bigest advantage you have if your doung mushroom hay is the quality can be lower thats true however when the weeds take over your ton's per acre go way down. So it may be easyer at first but soon you could be running your equiptment over the same ground for less bales and at lower money to start it can get away from you fast. So just be careful.


----------



## mlappin

Like I said a lot of it depends on your area, here I'd burn all the hay down and no-till corn if all I could get for round bales was $80-100/ton. Usually I get around a $160/ton average or better at the saleson second cutting and after and usually never sale 800lb bales of first cutting for less than $40/bale which on the lighter bales works out to $100/ton.


----------



## JD3430

Will 400m said:


> The bigest advantage you have if your doung mushroom hay is the quality can be lower thats true however when the weeds take over your ton's per acre go way down. So it may be easyer at first but soon you could be running your equiptment over the same ground for less bales and at lower money to start it can get away from you fast. So just be careful.


That's great advice. I do plan on spraying even the lower quality fields at least 1x/year. I notice that's what the big timers in my area seem to do.


----------



## JD3430

The other piece of the puzzle I still would like to get is a 30' dual tandem trailer. I am paying someone right now to help me haul. I'm using a backhoe trailer and a big dumptruck, he's using a 30' Big Tex. He can get more bales on his and can use his 450 to pull it. Much faster & more efficiently. I already have a 550, but need a trailer.

I was thinking of using the $$ from the sale of small baler & basket to pay for trailer.


----------



## Nitram

I like the idea of the trailer but Im not sure if I will let you sell the baler.


----------



## urednecku

JD3430 said:


> The other piece of the puzzle I still would like to get is a 30' dual tandem trailer. I am paying someone right now to help me haul. I'm using a backhoe trailer and abig_* dumptruck*,_ he's using a 30' Big Tex. He can get more bales on his and can use his 450 to pull it. Much faster & more efficiently. I already have a 550, but need a trailer.
> 
> I was thinking of using the $$ from the sale of small baler & basket to pay for trailer.


But I bet you can *un*-load a lot faster!!









(sorry, couldn't help it)


----------



## JD3430

You do get some funny looks toting hay around in a construction dump truck lol


----------

