# Is the forum going downhill



## CowboyRam

Is it just me, or does it seem like the forum does not have as much participation as it used to. It seem that since the change to the new server and look that it has been going down hill. It just seem like it used to a lot more active before the change.


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## Tx Jim

I think hay harvesting season has a large bearing on forum participation.


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## Vol

Censorship. 

Regards, Mike


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## Hayjosh

The forum is dying, there are fewer active regulars.


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## JOR Farm

I agree with Mike in regards to some frequent posters who have disappeared in the last year or two. But what puzzles me is when I am searching and reading old threads from like `12 to `18 or so none of thos guys are around any more. I for one have a lot of learning to do and wish more of them were still around.


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## Markpnw

Well not sure but possibly forums are dying out in general after Facebook and social media took over. What would be nice would to get sponsorship from hay equipment companies that advertise us and vice versa and make a huge network where hay farmers can talk and interact. Majority of farmers tend to stick to themselves and figure stuff out by themselves and the only people they talk to is there clients, neighbors and the folks at the local feed store.


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## rjmoses

I spend a lot less time looking at HT over the last two years. I'm not sure why but I think it has a lot to do with covid. I have friends and neighbors that I saw or hung out with several times a week that, nowadays, I haven't seen or talked to in a year. Social distancing destroys our communities and our relationships.

I am very politically active on facebook. After years of not speaking out and not getting involved in politics, I believe I let our country go too far down a very dark path. I am now speaking out loudly about our governmental policies that I believe are totally wrong.

I had a conversation this morning with a gentleman and we agreed that most people just want to be left alone and live their lives quietly and peacefully. I know that was my attitude. But now I am fighting back--I told one of my hay customers this afternoon that I will probably be one of the first people locked up in the concentration...ooops, I mean re-education...camps.

I have always steered away from getting involved in politics and I believe that was a mistake. Now, as much as I don't like it, I am getting involved. I believe we are at war...with a chickensh*t enemy who does not have the courage to confront us directly.

The BS in Washington and the blue states has to stop.

Ralph
Speaking out---loudly!


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## swmnhay

1 censorship 

2 same old questions 

3 Busy with other things


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## Gearclash

swmnhay said:


> 1 censorship
> 
> 2 same old questions
> 
> 3 Busy with other things


Yup. And,

4 natural ebb and flow of internet forum users. 

Plus haying is not exactly a real mainstream thing. It’s a niche that I think is slowly shrinking.


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## Vol

The vast majority are not aware, but Vertical Scope spent months upon months going through the threads on this site and deleting the ones they deemed offensive, politically incorrect, or non-topical to the forums name. They did this right before introduction of the new software. This is why many long term users no longer frequent this site. 

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses

Vol said:


> The vast majority are not aware, but Vertical Scope spent months upon months going through the threads on this site and deleting the ones they deemed offensive, politically incorrect, or non-topical to the forums name. They did this right before introduction of the new software. This is why many long term users no longer frequent this site.
> 
> Regards, Mike


The Boiler room was a way of blowing off steam and frustration. What is the political orientation of Vertical Scope? Who owns them? Who died and made them God?


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## swmnhay

rjmoses said:


> The Boiler room was a way of blowing off steam and frustration. What is the political orientation of Vertical Scope? Who owns them? Who died and made them God?


liberal
liberal
Canadian Liberals
They bought it so they do as they wish just like CNN,NBC etc etc


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## carcajou

I don't care for the new format, HT seemed more like an extended family in the old format. I don't get involved here as i used too.


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## Ox76

Vol said:


> The vast majority are not aware, but Vertical Scope spent months upon months going through the threads on this site and deleting the ones they deemed offensive, politically incorrect, or non-topical to the forums name. They did this right before introduction of the new software. This is why many long term users no longer frequent this site.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I was NOT aware of this. Now I'm PISSED. You dirty liberal sonsabitches are starting a war and you're going to LOSE.


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## RockyHill

Vol said:


> The vast majority are not aware, but Vertical Scope spent months upon months going through the threads on this site and deleting the ones they deemed offensive, politically incorrect, or non-topical to the forums name. They did this right before introduction of the new software. This is why many long term users no longer frequent this site.
> 
> Regards, Mike





rjmoses said:


> The Boiler room was a way of blowing off steam and frustration. What is the political orientation of Vertical Scope? Who owns them? Who died and made them God?



There was something I went back searching (for a good purpose) one of those politically incorrect that couldn't find -- guess I didn't dream that discussion. When the forum was "going good" I think most of the members kept political differences respectful most of the time. The moderators tried to keep things from getting out of hand without censorship. Not doubt feeling could have been hurt but overall it worked. Knowing how members approached their haying, I could take their political views in the right frame. I miss that. Even if I don't agree with someone, knowing why that have that belief is helpful.



carcajou said:


> I don't care for the new format, HT seemed more like an extended family in the old format. I don't get involved here as i used too.


As far as the format, the old one was fine with me but I REALLY MISS THE EXTENDED FAMILY. Some members we have become "real world" friends and communicate outside the forum.



rjmoses said:


> Ralph
> Speaking out---loudly!


Is there a forum or just your personal social media?


I really wish we had a place to talk about hay and other things that affect our lives. Please direct me if that place exists.

Shelia


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## Gearclash

rjmoses said:


> The Boiler room was a way of blowing off steam and frustration. What is the political orientation of Vertical Scope? *Who owns them?* Who died and made them God?


Vertical Scope is a subsidiary of a media/publishing company in Toronto CAN. VS itself is worth something like a 150 million and owns 1000s of websites. 

The Boiler Room no longer functions like it did as it is not a “protected” forum anymore, plus it is emasculated; far as I am concerned it may as well be deleted.


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## Gearclash

RockyHill said:


> There was something I went back searching (for a good purpose) one of those politically incorrect that couldn't find -- guess I didn't dream that discussion. When the forum was "going good" I think most of the members kept political differences respectful most of the time. The moderators tried to keep things from getting out of hand without censorship. Not doubt feeling could have been hurt but overall it worked. Knowing how members approached their haying, I could take their political views in the right frame. I miss that. Even if I don't agree with someone, knowing why that have that belief is helpful.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the format, the old one was fine with me but I REALLY MISS THE EXTENDED FAMILY. Some members we have become "real world" friends and communicate outside the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a forum or just your personal social media?
> 
> 
> I really wish we had a place to talk about hay and other things that affect our lives. Please direct me if that place exists.
> 
> Shelia


You have a PM.


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## rjmoses

RockyHill said:


> As far as the format, the old one was fine with me but I REALLY MISS THE EXTENDED FAMILY. Some members we have become "real world" friends and communicate outside the forum.
> 
> Is there a forum or just your personal social media?
> 
> I really wish we had a place to talk about hay and other things that affect our lives. Please direct me if that place exists.
> 
> Shelia


I'm active on Facebook, gettr, freetalk45 and at the local bars. My intent is to call the hypocrites on their propaganda and BS. Like New Jersey's latest pro abortion law--up to the moment prior to birth. To me, that's just plain first degree murder. And it's one second away from concentration camps. But, I digress...

Ralph


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## Vol

I probably left one thing out that needs to be re-visited. We were flying low(non-existent) until Draft Horse Hay and GOAT sicked the ownership onto us with their liberal low life tactics. Really, it all came down to one individual who pestered VS to death until they decided to do something to stop the squeaky wheel. In the end, I was personally able to ban both of them, but it was basically at the expense of the forum. In order to run a forum today without PC invading it takes two things. You must own the forum and you must not accept advertising monies....or be extremely selective who you let advertise on ones site.


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## rjmoses

I hate to say this, but 1) I really don't like the new format--simply because everything is changing too much for me to keep up with (I want some stability and consistency. And 2) I am only one person who spends $1 but I am spending my dollar on those who share my attitudes and beliefs. Example: I used to read the Chicago Tribune, Sun-times, St Louis Post Dispatch and several other sources daily. They have all been bought by one conglomerate and now share the same propagandist BS--I don't read them anymore. 

I'm wondering if Vertical Scope is part of that conglomerate?

Ralph


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## Gearclash

Vol said:


> In order to run a forum today without PC invading it takes two things. You must own the forum and you must not accept advertising monies....or be extremely selective who you let advertise on ones site.


And even this is no guarantee that harassment won’t happen . . .


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## Trillium Farm

rjmoses said:


> I hate to say this, but 1) I really don't like the new format--simply because everything is changing too much for me to keep up with (I want some stability and consistency. And 2) I am only one person who spends $1 but I am spending my dollar on those who share my attitudes and beliefs. Example: I used to read the Chicago Tribune, Sun-times, St Louis Post Dispatch and several other sources daily. They have all been bought by one conglomerate and now share the same propagandist BS--I don't read them anymore.
> I'm wondering if Vertical Scope is part of that conglomerate?
> Ralph


Vertical Scope is owned by a Holding Company, Torstar which also owns the (arguably) biggest Daily the "Toronto Star" newspaper, very liberal in its views. These liberal agendas are like a cancer spreading everywhere aided and abetted by our education system and its political correctness


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## Gearclash

rjmoses said:


> I'm wondering if Vertical Scope is part of that conglomerate?


It was owned by a conglomerate known as Torstar, recently sold to a different holding company known as Nordstar. Ultimately this is all about advertising revenues. Anything that would jeopardize those all important revenues must not be allowed. It boils down, as always, to “follow the money.”


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## Trillium Farm

Gearclash said:


> It was owned by a conglomerate known as Torstar, recently sold to a different holding company known as Nordstar. Ultimately this is all about advertising revenues. Anything that would jeopardize those all important revenues must not be allowed. It boils down, as always, to “follow the money.”


You're right it bought it in 2020. I know about one of the owners and his history and nothing bodes well for HT.


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## Gearclash

I see one of the NordStar owners is the son of a Macedonian immigrant. I have an ex-brother in law that was from Macedonia . . . of all things!


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## Trillium Farm

Gearclash said:


> I see one of the NordStar owners is the son of a Macedonian immigrant. I have an ex-brother in law that was from Macedonia . . . of all things!


Yes that's the one I was referring to, bit of a shady character in business.


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## slowzuki

I think you’ll find when there is advertising dollars at stake, it’s not a case of liberalism but a case of trying to make it apolitical. There is very few advertisers that want to be tied to a political cause. I know I stopped reading the boiler room and threads started by some members as it just became an echo chamber of right leaning folks bashing liberals and centrist republicans. Gets tiresome.

edit also don’t like the new forum software, I don’t know why exactly.


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## Trillium Farm

slowzuki said:


> I think you’ll find when there is advertising dollars at stake, it’s not a case of liberalism but a case of* trying to make it apolitical. *There is very few advertisers that want to be tied to a political cause. I know I stopped reading the boiler room and threads started by some members as it just became an echo chamber of right leaning folks bashing liberals and centrist republicans. Gets tiresome.
> edit also don’t like the new forum software, I don’t know why exactly.


Apolitical, that reminds me of Don Quixote's song...the impossible dream: ....to fight the unbeatable foe....
Now some liberals are even talking about "Liberal Democracies" and I know of NO Democracy that has run on liberalism nor how many voters would even know what that is. Society was not nor will it ever be ready for social media!


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## IH 1586

I really miss the old format. There was always something new to read. Now the only thing regular is shetland weather report. I like the way vol put it. We were a bunch of forgotten misfits minding our own business until a couple of(I’ll quit there) ruined it for all of us.

Middle of winter and the right subject and Haytalk comes back to life.


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## RockmartGA

Vol said:


> I probably left one thing out that needs to be re-visited. We were flying low(non-existent) until Draft Horse Hay and GOAT sicked the ownership onto us with their liberal low life tactics.* Really, it all came down to one individual who pestered VS to death until they decided to do something to stop the squeaky wheel*. In the end, I was personally able to ban both of them, but it was basically at the expense of the forum. In order to run a forum today without PC invading it takes two things. You must own the forum and you must not accept advertising monies....or be extremely selective who you let advertise on ones site.


I'm more of the Voltaire "I disagree with what you said, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ideologist. I actually enjoy a good back and forth with someone who disagrees with me, provided we stick with the topic at hand. I've learned a few things in the process.

That said, today's "woke" or "cancel culture" do not ascribe to that same philosophy. Their goal is to silence those with whom they disagree as most of their talking points cannot be substantiated with fact. It's more about their "feelings", facts be damned.


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## rjmoses

The original point was if this site was going down hill--and my response is simply: YES.

When anyone starts controlling what can be said/cannot be said, it is political. Period. 

I want to know what products I can rely on, what products I cannot rely on--why and who's behind them. I am not here to mollycoddle advertisers. If their product cannot stand the heat, well...tough! 

As a specific example: I will no longer buy Wrangler's products and, as much as this saddens me, I will no longer watch the Wrangler's National Finals Rodeo (one of my favorites) for reasons I can make available separately. 

I'm only one person. I have opinions, and when my ability to express those opinions is limited in one area, it is only a matter of time before those opinions will be limited in many areas. I do have the responsibility to express them clearly and to accept information that goes contrary to those opinions.

Bottom line--If HT wants to censor me, that's within their abilities. But I also have the ability not to use their services, so they lose me as a customer.

If enough people think and act like I do, they will be out of business. After all, choices have consequences.

Ralph


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## RockmartGA

CowboyRam said:


> Is it just me, or does it seem like the forum does not have as much participation as it used to. It seem that since the change to the new server and look that it has been going down hill. It just seem like it used to a lot more active before the change.


Thirty replies in one day to this topic. I would say the gang is still here, but not as active as the old days. Maybe it is the new format. Maybe we miss the old back and forth discussions that cropped up from time to time. Who knows....


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## CowboyRam

The reason I ask is that here on Haytalk I can read all that is going on in less than five minutes. I spend more time on CattleToday and it takes me way longer to get caught up. It just does not seem like content here is as engaging as it used to be. With it being winter I would have thought the activity would be higher; we are not out making hay, well other than those on the other side of the world.


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## SCtrailrider

Well I'm one that has been censored more than once, I guess a few funny farmer videos offended the new owners.. 

And I also don't like the new format and so I don't visit very often ...


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## Ox76

Just a shame. It really is. Political correctness does only one thing - destroys everything it touches. Keep your heads up, friends. We'll win in the end but it will be tough until we get to that point.


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## Aaroncboo

I guess it would be up to the guys and gals that are still on here regularly to make an effort to make all feel welcome on this site. Be friendly and helpful. I know my some views don't align with the majority of you. I'm more in the middle than left or right. I don't care what you do with your life and choices. Do whatever makes you happy, just give me the same chance. I've always found this site more than helpful and I feel that we can bring it back as well. I may not know any of you personally but I think of you as friends. As far as the site goes it's hard for me to say one way or the other because I only use mobile as I don't own a computer.


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## swmnhay

Another reason some have quit posting is they come to the site after not reading it a couple weeks and they have to relogin,gets old after awhile so don’t bother replying.

Looks like most all the advertisers have dropped the site,they must see the traffic on here has dropped significantly also.


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## sethd11

I'll be honest. I just kinda faded away after a while, I had to keep logging in and it would boot me constantly. I never was/is/are a hard poster, mostly a reader. I have to admit i do not like the format anymore. Other then that, with the advent of Facebook, it takes a dedicated member of both to pay attention, because Facebook algorithms are literally designed to addict you, where this forum does not do that. 
Most people can't quit Facebook even if they try. 
What I'm trying to say is that the groups on Facebook kill this forum faster then It could kill itself. 
Although any content on Facebook turns into garbage anyways, whereas this forum is actually helpful
Sorry for the way I write, it's just how it is.


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## paoutdoorsman

@sethd11 ... haven't seen you post in a while. Funny thing. Don't ask me why, but when I saw your post, I recalled a post that you mentioning an inline baler purchase that didn't meet your expectations, and I think you mentioned more to come on that subject. Am I imagining that?  Funny the things you recall. 🤷‍♂️


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## Sterling6.7

Cancel culture doesn’t work when the knotters aren’t tying and the rain is coming. We need to remember the past to help us live the future with the lessons learned.


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## rjmoses

Take heed, Vertical Scope. 

Heartland Bank is taking a beating because they claimed "political correctness" in trying to close Mike Lindell's My Pillow account. They are trying to avoid taking a political position, but by taking the position they have, they have taken a political position.

Ralph
It takes a lot to make me angry, but, if you do, I guarantee you won't like the result!


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## Trotwood2955

I do think not being active hay season for most of us right now lightens the postings. I liked the old format better too but feel like I’ve adapted. I still read posts almost every day and try to post when I feel I can help someone with a response, just like all of you have through the years when I’ve had questions or issues. Sure hope the forum can stay alive as it’s sure helped me a lot through the years, and in my opinion the community here is much friendlier with less egos than other forums I read.


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## PaulN

Trotwood2955 said:


> and in my opinion the community here is much friendlier with less egos than other forums I read.


I couldn't agree more. Some of the other forums I've been on, it's actually painful to read. The way they insult each other and resort to name calling is just plain childish.
The people on this site are courteous and respectful of others for the most part. Even when we don't agree, we can still exchange ideas.


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## sethd11

Paul, truer words haven't been spoken lately, the way the groups work on Facebook is pathetic, name calling, continual childish practices in regards to serious topics, and a myriad of other things that basically make them useless. 

The inline baler story got better with time as I continually worked it over until it performed like a 1840, which we also bought recently. 
I imagine that is a story for another section here. 

Rjmoses, the canceling of service to Mike Lindell is immediately political by the action they took. Going to bite them in the ass bigtime financially as conservatives will avoid them


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## sea2summit

RockmartGA said:


> I'm more of the Voltaire "I disagree with what you said, but will defend to the death your right to say it" ideologist. I actually enjoy a good back and forth with someone who disagrees with me, provided we stick with the topic at hand. I've learned a few things in the process.
> 
> That said, today's "woke" or "cancel culture" do not ascribe to that same philosophy. Their goal is to silence those with whom they disagree as most of their talking points cannot be substantiated with fact. It's more about their "feelings", facts be damned.


Quoted because I can only like it once.


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## VA Haymaker

This forum has gone to the crapper since Hayden Cline quit posting!!!!!!!!

Those were some fun days - someone needs to reach out to him and have him plug back-in.

Bottom line - IMHO, it's not as enjoyable to post here as it is on other forums.


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## Trillium Farm

RockmartGA said:


> That said, today's "woke" or "cancel culture" do not ascribe to that same philosophy. Their goal is to silence those with whom they disagree as most of their talking points cannot be substantiated with fact. It's more about their "feelings", facts be damned.


Speaking of cancel culture, I just watched a documentary where the Libyans (old & young) fought to their death against islamic state, to save a vestige of "Colonialism" Leptis Magna, an old roman city, as they considered it part of their history and culture while WE here are tearing down statues of the past and censor all opinion not agreeing with current fantasies.


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## clowers

rjmoses said:


> I hate to say this, but 1) I really don't like the new format--simply because everything is changing too much for me to keep up with (I want some stability and consistency. And 2) I am only one person who spends $1 but I am spending my dollar on those who share my attitudes and beliefs. Example: I used to read the Chicago Tribune, Sun-times, St Louis Post Dispatch and several other sources daily. They have all been bought by one conglomerate and now share the same propagandist BS--I don't read them anymore.
> 
> I'm wondering if Vertical Scope is part of that conglomerate?
> 
> Ralph


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## BisonMan

I'm on another forum. The haytalk forum I find when comparing it to the other forum has too many threads. I think it would be better if people responded to old threads and "bumped" them. Instead there is an emphasis on creating endless new threads. To me this is a shortfall, because there might be 5 threads on brillion seeders, rather than one master. So you can't just read up on a topic page by page.

But my main suggestion would be that you have to click into a given forum eg. Hay/Alfalfa rather than having the option of just seeing what was posted lately.

As a relatively new member I've found the people on here extremely helpful. The knowledge is amazing, and the willingness to give and share info is great.


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## Tx Jim

BisonMan
It sounds as if you're not viewing HayTalk from the "home page". I open HayTalk on it's Home page & every topic that was replied to since I left earlier is on that page. I personally hate old threads that's been re-opened to ask a question. I start reading & then determine "old thread" is months/years old. It would suit me if all threads that were 3 months old were LOCKED on all discussion forums so they couldn't be replied to. That just my opinion & you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Jim


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## Gearclash

Tx Jim said:


> BisonMan
> It sounds as if you're not viewing HayTalk from the "home page". I open HayTalk on it's Home page & every topic that was replied to since I left earlier is on that page. I personally hate old threads that's been re-opened to ask a question. I start reading & then determine "old thread" is months/years old.* It would suit me if all threads that were 3 months old were LOCKED on all discussion forums so they couldn't be replied to. *That just my opinion & you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
> Jim


Some forums archive threads after a certain length of time. Then they are available for viewing but cannot be replied to.


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## Hayman1

Tx Jim said:


> BisonMan
> It sounds as if you're not viewing HayTalk from the "home page". I open HayTalk on it's Home page & every topic that was replied to since I left earlier is on that page. I personally hate old threads that's been re-opened to ask a question. I start reading & then determine "old thread" is months/years old. It would suit me if all threads that were 3 months old were LOCKED on all discussion forums so they couldn't be replied to. That just my opinion & you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
> Jim


Yep, would keep me from thinking Dawg or Hayden had returned to the forums....


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## Hayman1

Just a thought- I have gotten back into reloading and am having a ruger 1 built in 45-70 with a heavy barrel. Decided to join the ruger site chat and Marlin owners who have a very active 45-70 group. Sites for both look identical to HT and seem to work virtually the same. Same owner, or just same designer, or is this design for sale at Walmart? I have no idea what the relative #s of participants are amongst the three sites but I got 20 some shoutouts the first day after I joined and no, I did not post a pic of my wife as my avatar


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## Vol

I believe Hayden is pretty much out of farming now and is enjoying a new life with his bride. Being a young man with a new wife and likely an expanding future, small scale farming is just too costly, unpredictable, and not profitable enough to provide a stable living for those in that stage of life. Hayden is the finest person that I have met here on haytalk and personally, I wish him the greatest success in all his endeavors. I thoroughly enjoyed our phone conversations and visitations with each other.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Hayman1 said:


> Yep, would keep me from thinking Dawg or Hayden had returned to the forums....


Dawg will not return. Todd was thoroughly disgusted with the censorship, attacks by the liberal invasion, and the Canadian ownership. 

His ship has sailed. He is solely focused on his immediate family, grandchildren, and his time on this earth. I do not blame him one bit and I feel pretty much the same way. 

Regards, Mike


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## Dixiemist

Hayman 1 I hope you had plenty of powder and primers stored up because I can't find anything other than shotgun powder.


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## Vol

Another thing that get's overlooked as far as site deterioration was when the canadian ownership removed the Chat Board. This was an opening that at first glance greeted everyone every single morning. It was a great way for the entire community to see any novel event etc. going on in different regions. Or to just say briefly what you were up to. When we lost the Chat board , we lost a lot of camaraderie. 

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Dixiemist said:


> Hayman 1 I hope you had plenty of powder and primers stored up because I can't find anything other than shotgun powder.


I saw on another forum where Midway USA had gotten a large shipment of powder and bullets last week. It all may be gone now, but the gist of the conversation was that it was looking like ammunition components were beginning to loosen somewhat.

I noticed that you can buy bulk .223 ammunition fairly easily now, whereas earlier you could not. It is probably the all-around best long-range predator round that you can buy as far as accuracy and cost.

If you really want to practice very long-range shooting, the 6.5 is really becoming a favorite. With the right rifle, like the Daniel Defense, and high quality optics, one can soon become proficient at hitting targets at 800+ yards.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

Dixiemist said:


> Hayman 1 I hope you had plenty of powder and primers stored up because I can't find anything other than shotgun powder.


I buy the components I want before the rifle.


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## IH 1586

Vol said:


> If you really want to practice very long-range shooting, the 6.5 is really becoming a favorite. With the right rifle, like the Daniel Defense, and high quality optics, one can soon become efficient at hitting targets at 800+ yards.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Bought both my sons entry level 6.5's. Got one sighted in and I couldn't believe the grouping I got right out of the box. It made me look good as I not a great shot. Neither one has got to try them yet as covid kept them from being with me during deer season.


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## Dixiemist

Really like the 6.5, wound up with a TC and a vortex scope made me look good when sighting the scopes in this fall with my boys. Only got one buck at 300 yards. I thought I was back in the corps when I was able to shoot a gnat at 300 yards in hurricane-force winds with a red ryder and open sights. Now i have to have an optic to see anything with these glasses.


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## Ox76

Yep. I remember open sights were easy. Now I too need a scope for anything. Sigh.....nothing lasts forever.


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## Hayman1

Dixiemist said:


> Really like the 6.5, wound up with a TC and a vortex scope made me look good when sighting the scopes in this fall with my boys. Only got one buck at 300 yards. I thought I was back in the corps when I was able to shoot a gnat at 300 yards in hurricane-force winds with a red ryder and open sights. Now i have to have an optic to see anything with these glasses.


I got a vortex hogmaster with a 30 mm tube. Really lets the light through


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## Hayman1

Ox76 said:


> Yep. I remember open sights were easy. Now I too need a scope for anything. Sigh.....nothing lasts forever.


Next loss is needing a low light scope in broad daylight 😜


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