# More bites the dust



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Was looking at 3 signs today probably 750 acres of high yielding farm land coming to the end of its farming days. And you wonder why ,our county voted Friday to raise all real-estate taxes 40%


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

40%? Trying to force more farms out of business?


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

What county? Illinois (for once they did something almost right) has a 5% per year cap on property tax increases.

Ralph


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Is that Centre County Endrow?


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Thankfully not with those numbers (at least at once), the libs in St Paul have been doing that for years. Libs don't like people holding onto land. They "preserve it" by sub dividing and building a lot of over priced over sized energy guzzling houses. I lose count of the subdivions with the word preserve in them. Oxymoron.

A few years ago a guy down the road atarted clearing some woods. Farmed it the past couple. Finally knocked the dirt off the stumps and it is all clear.

I heard this year not exactly a small chunk. 100 acres. Then I heard why. They were taxing him as recreational. He said if they are gonna tax him, he will cut em all down. I wanna borrow his checkbook for a day... Don't think it has a bottom.


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Geeze, thats one heck of a piece of ground. Not too many people hold that many acres in this area..


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

This is Lebanon County Pa. All a dirty deal . 3 years ago they recessed. Every home owner was happy farmers had a number 3 to 7 times higher in real-estate tax . After tons of hearings battles found if you would go in the Homestead Act /Clean And Green. The count would drop your assessment about 10 % and clean and green could get your tax bill in some cases down 40%. So most farmers were forced in and now just a couple years later back up 40% and you are still in the program .

We rented an 88 acre farm from a widow that had a house , 88 acres, farm buildings barley usable and her kids would not let her go in" clean and green" and they told me my total annual rent would be, only what the school taxes on the property were .The taxes were $19800 I paid $225 per acre . This did not allow any income for the widow and we always helped out with maintenance around the house . They would have continued as long as she lived and then we learned taxes to go up 50% in next 2 years . They like many people were forced to sell most of the land currently sold will be developed some will remain farming . This I think is why so much land went on the block . People just did not want to take the chance to devalue the land for ag because the future of ag is so unpredictable and if the do go into one of the homestead acts and they ever want to build / develop . All that savings and then some is due back in rollback taxes . And of course the county continues to lose industry base and nearly 40% of the budget is welfare related.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> This is Lebanon County Pa. All a dirty deal . 3 years ago they recessed. Every home owner was happy farmers had a number 3 to 7 times higher in real-estate tax . After tons of hearings battles found if you would go in the Homestead Act /Clean And Green. The count would drop your assessment about 10 % and clean and green could get your tax bill in some cases down 40%. So most farmers were forced in and now just a couple years later back up 40% and you are still in the program .
> We rented an 88 acre farm from a widow that had a house , 88 acres, farm buildings barley usable and her kids would not let her go in" clean and green" and they told me my total annual rent would be, only what the school taxes on the property were .The taxes were $19800 I paid $225 per acre . This did not allow any income for the widow and we always helped out with maintenance around the house . They would have continued as long as she lived and then we learned taxes to go up 50% in next 2 years . They like many people were forced to sell most of the land currently sold will be developed some will remain farming . This I think is why so much land went on the block . People just did not want to take the chance to devalue the land for ag because the future of ag is so unpredictable and if the do go into one of the homestead acts and they ever want to build / develop . All that savings and then some is due back in rollback taxes . And of course the county continues to lose industry base and nearly 40% of the budget is welfare related.


Sounds like you have libs or rinos in charge up there. Lebanon county is beautiful. 
Aren't you guys getting some of the Syrian refugees? Or is it Lehigh county? 
That'll affect taxes....


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Sounds like you have libs or rinos in charge up there. Lebanon county is beautiful.
> Aren't you guys getting some of the Syrian refugees? Or is it Lehigh county?
> That'll affect taxes....


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

It's one of those areas that is very nice and becoming increasingly more difficult to farm in. My wife and our children on 417 acres the land is all of joining there are four farmsteads and 6 farm houses. It's a unique area because around us there is so much development. Me and the grandkids can ride our ATVs and utvs on five miles of feild lanes and we never have to leave the area that we own. My son works for us full time living the farms .He also created a small wildlife refuge for hunting. Taxes and insurance are killing us along with this current out of low commodity prices., I'm going to send a picture that reflects a quarter of our pride and joy


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

WOW
Thats amazing


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

All the refugees are coming to Lancaster county. Large church base here to help them. I hear apartments in Lancaster are non existent due to all the demand.

Didn't Lebanon county get a new assessment about 2 years ago? First time in like 30 years, or something like that. I cant believe people aren't going in clean and green. Sure its harder to develop due to the potential for back taxes but when you look at the tax savings and the fact that any decent farm will still bring 1.5-2 million for FARMING I think its a no brainer.

Wouldn't most farmers rather keep their farm in farming? I would think 1 to 2 million is plenty to leave to the kids....


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

When they did the reassessment our real estate taxes for all our properties combined went from 27K to 77K . $77000 for 4 farms was more than I could afford . We did the homestead/ clean and green got our total real-estate taxes down to 39K.. Barain right!$??. I just think 40% at one time is too much of an increase for farmers who owe land.
My dad is a 80 had open heart surgery and still comes to work 6 hrs a day . My wife and I are 57 years old We are fortunate we have paid down a ton of debt have very little debt anymore but not a lot of money in the bank because we have put everything back into the farm. We are not going to buy any more farmland and focus on building retirement.Lots of farmers in our area have tons of debt and will go to their grave that way we feel fortunate. Also on our farm the next generation wants to farm so all we have to do is come up with a plan to pass it to them and allow us to retire and avoid all chances of the nursing home ending up with the farms. We should sell these farms and move to an area where there is a lot less development pressure and taxes are not as high. That would probably make the full transition to the next generation easier. My son wants to phase out of dairy and build chicken houses. We really enjoy living here.


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

About 25 years ago, Cook County, Il, implemented a nice little scam---An acre of ground was assessed "as if" it had 8 houses on it.

A lady I knew, about 65, lost her husband. She lived on 5 acres and, when this law was enacted, she lost her property. Her taxes went from several thousand dollars/year to over $70,000/year. A developer bought it at tax auction and put up a whole bunch of condos. Everybody, except her, made out like a bandit--Oh, they were bandits.

Ralph


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Endrow- Good for you for thinking ahead and putting the interests of your family and your son ahead of your own interests and abilities to "control" everything. Unfortunately my family doesn't think that way. Our farm has been in the family since my great grandmother was born there in 1884. My dad will probably be the last generation to own it. Hes 68, I am 35. He wants to hold it till he dies. He's a control freak...When he dies I will be of an age that I wont want to take on millions in debt to buy out the rest of the family....

I am seeing more and more farms going to turkey/chicken barns. There is a stable income not available with milking cows. Neighbor put in 2 cage free layer houses for 1 million. Similar $$ investment to cows with less work and more income. Free time allows neighbor to do some custom field work


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

endrow said:


> When they did the reassessment our real estate taxes for all our properties combined went from 27K to 77K . $77000 for 4 farms was more than I could afford . We did the homestead/ clean and green got our total real-estate taxes down to 39K.. Barain right!$??. I just think 40% at one time is too much of an increase for farmers who owe land.
> My dad is a 80 had open heart surgery and still comes to work 6 hrs a day . My wife and I are 57 years old We are fortunate we have paid down a ton of debt have very little debt anymore but not a lot of money in the bank because we have put everything back into the farm. We are not going to buy any more farmland and focus on building retirement.Lots of farmers in our area have tons of debt and will go to their grave that way we feel fortunate. Also on our farm the next generation wants to farm so all we have to do is come up with a plan to pass it to them and allow us to retire and avoid all chances of the nursing home ending up with the farms. We should sell these farms and move to an area where there is a lot less development pressure and taxes are not as high. That would probably make the full transition to the next generation easier. My son wants to phase out of dairy and build chicken houses. We really enjoy living here.


You have time to build a nice retirement equity in 15 years endrow....don't worry, that is the devils way of shortening your life.....it will happen and just put your farms in a agricultural trust to pass on....needs to be done soon....I think it must be in order at least five years to keep the care centers from grabbing them. But who knows, maybe the Good Lord will take you suddenly and you will not have to suffer in a care center or a lingering death. It's all about real trust and faith.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

Similar problem here. My parents own ground, my wife and I own ground but my 89 year old grandmother owns most of what we farm with the full intention of leaving it to her 5 kids to fight out after she's gone. It'd kill my dad to see houses on it but I'm afraid that's where it'll end up.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Seems a whole pile of folks need to be in jail up in PA, there's a whole lotta people being robbed......


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

LOL or seriously anyway the vote at the last County Commissioners meeting for a 40% increase in real estate tax went like this. (Two Republicans yes) (one Democrat no).


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

In reality what's going to have to change in our area here is the way they actually do the taxing. Prime example a small development right below the dairy farm here built in the mid 50s I know at least three homes where I bet his salary is 6 digits and her salary is 6 digits. Not saying anything negative about those people they're good people they're important people they all work in the medical field surgeons doctors etc but the way our county set up those people make very little contribution to the tax base at the county level.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I see what you're saying endrow but I would much rather have a flat tax across the board, somehow the notion of taking more from hardworking people because of the field they choose seems wrong to me.....I suppose it could be any field, lessen it was drug dealers or rap stars, then I say "take all you can while you can, they won't have it long...."


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

endrow said:


> In reality what's going to have to change in our area here is the way they actually do the taxing. Prime example a small development right below the dairy farm here built in the mid 50s I know at least three homes where I bet his salary is 6 digits and her salary is 6 digits. Not saying anything negative about those people they're good people they're important people they all work in the medical field surgeons doctors etc but the way our county set up those people make very little contribution to the tax base at the county level.


Sounds like they probably pay too much. Maybe not as much as you, but still too much.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

What does your county do with all the money? Sounds like room for lots of big grabs from the cookie jar.

I am unfamiliar with my PA geography. Must be building multiple billion dollar stadiums?


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> What does your county do with all the money? Sounds like room for lots of big grabs from the cookie jar.
> 
> I am unfamiliar with my PA geography. Must be building multiple billion dollar stadiums?


No. In fact, the big sports teams were playing in 60's era stadiums until about 10 years ago. They're taking state tax money and pumping it into sh*tholes like Philadelphia for housing and other welfare programs. Real estate taxes are primarily for school systems. Another strange factoid about PA taxes: the entire state police force is funded through the state fuel tax system. Only a few states fund their police force this way.
Our new esteemed liberal governor Tom Wolf is trying to pass some new tax plans that pull money from the "rich suburbs" and put it into the cities.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> I see what you're saying endrow but I would much rather have a flat tax across the board, somehow the notion of taking more from hardworking people because of the field they choose seems wrong to me.....I suppose it could be any field, lessen it was drug dealers or rap stars, then I say "take all you can while you can, they won't have it long...."


Amen.
Also, I'm tired of the "subjectivity" and vagueness of the property tax system. From farm to farm and building lot to building lot, there's little consistency and plenty of room for unfair assessments.
I built a barn at the back of my property and these county assessor hyenas couldn't wait to get on my property to reassess my property.

Would love to have a flat tax or a flat consumption tax. That encourages sellers to lower prices to compete for business based on lower prices. Collection of taxes would be more fair.


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Lebanon County has a population of 135000 They are struggling to balance budget each year with tax revenue. It has 5 beautiful historic towns one being the home of Lebanon Valley College. Two of the county's largest cities are being gobbled up by low or no income housing and of course not that the two would coincide but now the the county jail is the biggest ticket item on the deficit list and 40% of the county budget goes to welfare. But they do a good job of hiding the blight and it is a beautiful area to pass threw. It is directly adjacent east to Hershey Pennsylvania home of Hersheypark and Hershey chocolate


----------



## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Endrow, we are pretty lucky down here in Cecil County Maryland. Our property taxes are not bad. I sit on our ag preservation and we have been doing some studies on the real cost of more houses compared to farms. I have know this for a long time but we are putting facts behind the statement, that houses cost the county a lot more money than farms do. I can provide you with some data if you would like


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't know how you guys manage it......given the same scenario, I would be paying about 200? pa.....not a chance

And someone said there was talk of moving some of the so-called refugees n 2? Wow, y'all need some need leadership.....wait, WE all need some new leadership.......yall just need it more


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> I don't know how you guys manage it......given the same scenario, I would be paying about 200? pa.....not a chance
> 
> And someone said there was talk of moving some of the so-called refugees n 2? Wow, y'all need some need leadership.....wait, WE all need some new leadership.......yall just need it more


Dawg,
I think the refugees are being rammed into his county by the feds. I dont think residents or local leaders are begging for them. Our new governor IS a democrat afterall.
I live 2 miles north of Joe Bite-me. He's trying to get them brought to DE. Putting pressure on the states to take them.
Of course none of them will be anywhere near 'Ol Joes palatial estate!! lol


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Lebanon County is going through what Lancaster county went through in the 90s through early 2000s. Land zoned residential is/was being build on in a large scale. The increased homes means more schools, more infrastructure and higher taxes.

Lancaster county has a very progressive ag preserve programs. Many farms have been preserved in the last 20 years, so there just isn't a lot of land available for building large scale developments. Because of this many of the Lancaster county based large builders(garman,keystone,landmark and charter) have pushed into Lebanon county. Land is way cheaper, and less hoops to jump through to build. Now it will be Lebanon counties turn for higher taxes for new schools, new water treatment plants etc etc. I just hope Lebanon county pushes the ag preserve while they still have time...


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

With the topic of farmland preservation coming up here I have often wondered is farmland preservation practiced in other areas .


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

endrow said:


> With the topic of farmland preservation coming up here I have often wondered is farmland preservation practiced in other areas .


I never even heard of it here......I'm sure it exists in some form, just never seen or heard of it....maybe if it was over a confederate graveyard? Take that back, they would excavate the site and build a high rise housing project on it......


----------

