# Soil Sampling



## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

*How do you, or who ever does it for you, take soil samples?*


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

We do every field, every year using grid sampling.


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

I also do grid samples on every field every year. I do it myself and send the samples to LSU for testing. I don't own a probe, just use my trusty old rice field shovel to get the samples,,







.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I sample about every 3 years and use a probe that I made. I walk around the field in a grid pattern and dump the sample in a pail I carry. I do at least 20 samples per field. I test for all the major macro and trace elements. I do not ask for recommendations, I just look at the base saturations and ppm. I send samples to a private lab "Litchfield Analytical.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I do my fields like Hayray does. Except I do it every year, with a probe I bought, and send it to Texas A&M. I should probably walk as well, but I usually use a Gator. I used to do the chemistry myself, but now I only do the horse paddocks.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

TAMU does it for $10 a sample. www them and download the form. Zip lock bag, the form and $10 per. Dirt is heavy but the USPS shipping cost wasn't all that bad (boat mail we used to call it....lowest priority). Give them what you want to plant and they come back with what you have and what you need to add to get to the tonnage of whatever you are after. Include trace minerals and ph. I never paid much attention to ph, but after I got this sample back I looked into it and it really does make a difference what it is.

Mark


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## mulberrygrovefamilyfarm (Feb 11, 2009)

With the cost of fertilizer, most everyone around here has gone grid sampling only, tied to GPS for variable rate application. We have local companies that do grid samples with ATV rigs setup for automated grid sampling. The samples, and more importantly the results, are tied to GPS data and are uploadable. The lab results are are tied to the GPS coordinates and are uploaded to the elevator or other variable rate applicators who apply based on the GPS variable rate data on-the-fly. With the cost of fertilizer, the additional cost of this type of GPS grid sampling more than pays for itself by applying only the needed amount of fertilizer rather than an average across the field. The ATV rigs look like this one - [video]http://www.wintex1000.com/videos/video384.mpeg[/video]


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

At one time or another I did many systems. Back in the Dark Ages, when Dale Pennington was running the TAMU Lab he got me interested in clipping a tissue sample at every location I stopped for a soil probe. Did the sampling going into the second alfalfa cutting and the first bermudagrass cutting. Made for some good cross referencing. DR Pennington at the time was planning to look at both samples and cross reference with the 9 digit Zip Code. 
Then he retired and the next directors were not interested in many of DR Pennington's projects.

I moved to A & L Plains and DR Coleman and for a while we had a good working relationship. I continued the pulling both plant samples and soil samples at the same time and same locations.

In the good old days ( 1950's) we would cut 18 acres of alfalfa as that is how much we could bale in the three hours between too damp to too dry to bale. As the yields improved the acres cut at a time was decreased. I now bale 7 acres of alfalfa or 5 acres of bermudagrass.

My fields are now long and narrow, 130 ft wide. The fields are divided in thirds, East Center & West. which is makes for three 2.33 acre blocks sampled separately. When I get the results back I average the numbers and fertilize accordingly.

Later I moved to Midwest Labs because they still used the Olsen chemistry. A & L switched to Mehlich III from Bray/& Olsen.

For many years I would sample the alfalfa field scheduled to come out of production and use that information to make my guess as to the fertilizer needs. Two year later that field would be sampled again the first year back in alfalfa. 
Eventually I learned that the Plant analysis alone worked for me. Now I use the hay sample's mineral analysis to monitor fertility. I get N, P, K, Mg. Ca, S, Na, Fe, Mn, B, & Cu. For the alfalfa I pay extra for Mo & Co and occasionally Cl.

As soon as I see a window of dry WX, I will start cutting alfalfa. Each field and each cutting has a hay sample pulled. The bermudagrass will not be ready to cut until late May Early June. 
This is handy as our summer drought puts the alfalfa into a summer dormancy after the second, sometimes third cutting.

In days gone past I would apply 1,000 lbs/A of potash some months prior to seeding the alfalfa. 
Now, *for moisture use efficiency*, I apply 200 - 300 lbs potash fertilizer and a little K-Mag, for the sulfur, after the first cutting.

My best guess for phosphate is injected in bands, prior to planting in the Fall, or with the anhydrous each winter for the bermudagrass sod.

When every thing is working as planned each year one field of alfalfa is plowed out and planted to wheat or oats, and left fallow one full summer when the fertilizers are incorporated.

*I must give vhaby a lot of credit* for what I have learned about, This Dirt!


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

hay wilson in TX said:


> At one time or another I did many systems. Back in the Dark Ages, when Dale Pennington was running the TAMU Lab he got me interested in clipping a tissue sample at every location I stopped for a soil probe. Did the sampling going into the second alfalfa cutting and the first bermudagrass cutting. Made for some good cross referencing. DR Pennington at the time was planning to look at both samples and cross reference with the 9 digit Zip Code.
> Then he retired and the next directors were not interested in many of DR Pennington's projects.
> 
> I moved to A & L Plains and DR Coleman and for a while we had a good working relationship. I continued the pulling both plant samples and soil samples at the same time and same locations.
> ...


Man you blow me away with your K. I know you are a senior farmer and have been there, done that, but no where have I read technical bulletins that call for the amount of K you put down, nor what you get out of it.

I don't remember the number, but my K is over the "excessive" column on the soil sample. I guarantee you that if I don't load up with N and P (to enrich the N process) I can't grow doodlie squat.

Mark


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

The potash thing is confusing. Took me a good while to realize that 1% K alfalfa plant analysis is deficient even if the soil test came back 350 ppm K. I have difficulty getting the hay analysis above 2% K. The growers up north are worried about winter die off, you and I worry about summer drought die off. 
A number of soils Labs have charts that give higher levels of K needed to meet the critical needs of our crops. 
To add to our joy high shrink clay is built in layers, and when moist, the clay swells and traps the potassium. The processing of the soil for analysis has the dirt dried and ground to a powder. There is no place to hide and the unavailable K gets counted as available. 
So yes my soils are labled as having excessive levels of potassium, even though the crops are telling us the K is deficient. 
The first Ph D who put me on the right track did research in California, and is now in Nebraska. He was kind enough to share his knowledge. 
Our Vincent vhaby did a lot work in high shrink soils in Montana and he has been a great mentor. 
When you finally learn what to look for, there is a good bit of information out there. 
I find it interesting that the Black Lands not far from Waco may look the same but it is closer to neutral and has a reasonable clay soil. 
It is truly interesting.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

mulberrygrovefamilyfarm said:


> With the cost of fertilizer, most everyone around here has gone grid sampling only, tied to GPS for variable rate application. We have local companies that do grid samples with ATV rigs setup for automated grid sampling. The samples, and more importantly the results, are tied to GPS data and are uploadable. The lab results are are tied to the GPS coordinates and are uploaded to the elevator or other variable rate applicators who apply based on the GPS variable rate data on-the-fly. With the cost of fertilizer, the additional cost of this type of GPS grid sampling more than pays for itself by applying only the needed amount of fertilizer rather than an average across the field. The ATV rigs look like this one - [video]http://www.wintex1000.com/videos/video384.mpeg[/video]


That is quite the soil sampling rig- makes short work of sampling. A question:

This rig was sampling in corn stubble. Some of you have adopted row crop grid sampling and variable rate fertilizer application to forage crops. Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, no yield monitors have been made for hay balers so that the benefits of grid sampling and variable rate fertilizer application in hay fields can be validated. Without being able to do yield monitoring, how do you determine that your variable rate soil sampling and fertilizer application is paying for itself in improved hay yields?

Don't take me wrong. Grid sampling has its place and, except for the increased cost to analyze many more samples, beats taking a number of soil subsamples over a field, mixing them in a bucket, and taking a sample from the bucket to send to the lab for analysis to obtain an average for the whole field.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

It is amazing how different soils react. Here in Maryland we have no problem Getting 3% potash in our alfalfa forage test and usually 2.5% or more in our grass. I am not a big user of foliar fertilizer, but could this help.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

hay wilson in TX said:


> The potash thing is confusing. Took me a good while to realize that 1% K alfalfa plant analysis is deficient even if the soil test came back 350 ppm K. I have difficulty getting the hay analysis above 2% K. The growers up north are worried about winter die off, you and I worry about summer drought die off.
> A number of soils Labs have charts that give higher levels of K needed to meet the critical needs of our crops.
> To add to our joy high shrink clay is built in layers, and when moist, the clay swells and traps the potassium. The processing of the soil for analysis has the dirt dried and ground to a powder. There is no place to hide and the unavailable K gets counted as available.
> So yes my soils are labled as having excessive levels of potassium, even though the crops are telling us the K is deficient.
> ...


Thanks for the reply.

Sir, I think you nailed it when you said K being "locked up in the soil". That may help explain the myth around here that existed 30+ years ago when I started farming this place. The locals would apply X-Y-0 and have poor yields thinking that there was an abundance of K but not knowing that it was inaccessible. I went with that for awhile and picked up on the word "available" and plugged that into the equation concerning K and how much a certain variety of plant removes from the soil.

I have the Renner (now encircled by Plano) research book where they looked at the declining crop yields/farm profits for the years 1944 thru 1966 and what to do about them, senior researcher, a Dr. Lundell. Their research provided some interesting results and I use it as a guide often. The Renner soil is the same Houston Black Clay that I have here.

Oh and on trace minerals, for the last couple of years I have done my pastures with APF's K-8 to restore them. For this years hay field, which has been dormant for a couple of years, I have 3 different fertilizer mixes that I am going to combine and K-8 is a big part of that.

Do appreciate your comments sir.

Mark


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## mulberrygrovefamilyfarm (Feb 11, 2009)

vhaby said:


> That is quite the soil sampling rig- makes short work of sampling. A question:
> 
> This rig was sampling in corn stubble. Some of you have adopted row crop grid sampling and variable rate fertilizer application to forage crops. Unfortunately, at least to my knowledge, no yield monitors have been made for hay balers so that the benefits of grid sampling and variable rate fertilizer application in hay fields can be validated. Without being able to do yield monitoring, how do you determine that your variable rate soil sampling and fertilizer application is paying for itself in improved hay yields?
> 
> Don't take me wrong. Grid sampling has its place and, except for the increased cost to analyze many more samples, beats taking a number of soil subsamples over a field, mixing them in a bucket, and taking a sample from the bucket to send to the lab for analysis to obtain an average for the whole field.


I see you're point regarding yield monitors, but you can easily walk a growing alfalfa field, especially just about pre-bloom and visually see variations in growth and stand. If you were to walk our hay fields, especially just prior to field renovation you would be able to go to each area of the field and point to areas that are not performing as well as others, and some areas that are out performing expectation. When the soil and tissue samples come back you would be able to say "Oh yeah, I can see on the map each areas deficiencies and excesses, and it matches the growth that I observed in the field." Then when the field has been variable rate applied you would see high performance in all areas and you would have a difficult time telling one part of the field from another. So based on this experience and a quick back of the napkin calculation, we've been able to see that we more than make up for the grid costs by only applying where we need it and at the rate that is needed, which saves us on input costs. But if our fields were small or had consistent growth, then grid wouldn't pay.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I have considered putting to gether a yield monitor for a small square baler. 
Use a mapping GPS and have the baler give tit a pulse everytime the tying mechanism trips.

For a poor man's Roundbaler the only thing I could think of is to record the ground speed on the map. The slower the ground speed the better the yield.

So far I have only put off until another year.

Now I realize fertility is not always the driving factor for yield, at least not on my soil. I find that ground that had been covered with flood waters will yield better in June than where the water did not reach. You can see it in the color and maturity when mowing.

I saw an article for a yield monitor on a large square baler. They measured the hay as it moved through the bale chamber.

I also could mark the bale locations when picking up the bales. Using a bale wagon, 99% of the time I pick up going the same direction as the baler had traveled.

With my long narrow fields it should be fairly easy.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

If you do your own soil sampling there may be an easier and less expensive way to collect those samples. After using soil sample probes out of necessity all my professional life and now having my own fields to sample, I resurrected a 3/4 inch diameter wood drill bit that in the past was used in a brace. I cut the back end off the bit and now insert this bit into a portable electric drill. As I go about sampling the field soils, I simply place this bit on the soil surface and pull the trigger on the drill. When the bit reaches the 6-inch soil depth paint mark, I stop the drill and pull the bit out of the soil, point the bit down in the plastic sample collection bucket, and pull the trigger again. This spins the soil off the bit and I'm ready to move to the next subsampling location. Many of you may find an old wood drill bit lying unused (for years) in a shop drawer. For the rest of you, a 3/4th inch wood drill bit is not nearly as expensive as any kind of soil probe, and most people now have portable electric drills.

Try this sampling method and let me know how it works for you...


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> incorporated.
> 
> *I must give vhaby a lot of credit* for what I have learned about, This Dirt!


*D___* it, Hay Wilson, when are you going to quit using that 4-letter D___ word when you are referring to soil?


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Well as a child I played in the Dirt.

Today my gripes when I track in Dirt.

Reminds me of the military controversy about a rifle being a rifle or a gun.

Besides I have a few besides you and John Haggard who an interesting reaction to the word.

John was a real influence over on Talk.NewAgTalk.com, until he attacked by a minority and excommunicated by the management. A real loss to the Soils and Crops discussion there. John is an Ohio Crop Advisor who specializes in fertilizing for a healthy soil, and seeing yields show a positive response.

I saw Brian Cummins at the State Farm Bureau Annual Conference. He spoke highly of Vanessa. 
Present were a couple of ex or present County Agents who agreed whole heartily.

It is good to have someone who is both useful and decorative.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I liked that automated soil sampler, may have to buy me a gator or mule, can't see riding my tired old four wheeler around all day.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

_I had the coop grid sample 1 field this fall for corn next yr.$6 per acre.4.4 acre grids.I found it very interesting and not what i expected.The lower areas that always produce more called for more fertilizer.Over the hills called for very little.We,ve been farming it for 44 yrs and spreading as the tests have called for testing a field as 1 sample._


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> _I had the coop grid sample 1 field this fall for corn next yr.$6 per acre.4.4 acre grids.I found it very interesting and not what i expected.The lower areas that always produce more called for more fertilizer.Over the hills called for very little.We,ve been farming it for 44 yrs and spreading as the tests have called for testing a field as 1 sample._


We've done the same, had the coop do the sampling on grids, wasn't enough variation to matter. I'll take that back, some variation, but not enough to justify spending my inheritance on a variable rate fertilizer spreader and a variable rate planter with variable rate starter pump.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Started grid sampling last year. Saw huge variations across several fields. P and K varied by as much as 300 lb/acre in some fields and had one farm call for lime at 9 ton/acre on parts of it and zero in other places. Bad thing, had to pay co-op to varialbe rate spread fertilzer when I have my own spreader. Good thing, most fields do not require anymore total fertizer or lime than I have been applying, just putting in the right places now.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

_The coop has variable rate 4 compartment airflow and spreads the P & K,sulfer,and zink in 1 pass.This field only required a little lime on 4 acres so i spread some pell lime on those 4 acres._

_They charged 5.25 per acre for spreading._


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I don't like having other people do our spreading or spraying, they either don't get to it in time or jump the gun and rut everything up. Especially not a good ideal with all no-till now.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Not particularly knowledgeable in any areas of hay production (yet!!), but this is my weakest.
My soil testing regimine is take about 10 samples from each field, mix thoroughly in bucket and send small sample to local guy who fertilizes fields. he send to lab and emails me results.
.......like I really know how to interpret them.....lol
Man I got a lot to learn. I hope I have enough years left in the business to get good at it.


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