# Gotta get into firewood



## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

Just reading two ads in our local market bulletin!

One said $350.00 for a 1/4 cord, other said $684.00 up for a 1/3 cord !!!!!

I mean really!!!


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

OK, I think I'll need a bigger saw, but tell me where I can get that price, even 1/2 that, & I'll start sawing. I think this 1 tree will help my retirement check quite a bit.

(I think hurricane Charlie split it for me in '04, & this 1/2 just fell about a month ago. I have to tip-toe to reach the trunk where it is setting on the stump, & I stand 6'1". )


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

You have anything worth burning as (firewood) in Fla?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Unfortunately, liberals/enviro wackos are going to take care of putting wood burners out of business.


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Unfortunately, liberals/enviro wackos are going to take care of putting wood burners out of business.
> [/quote
> Nah!  But, you will prolly need a "Tier 4" wood stove!


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## R Ball (Feb 26, 2013)

I keep a fire in a Lopi wood stove at the house. Keep a coal/wood fire at the shop by the barn. Occasionally fire up the wood burner in the shanty at the barn where we cook and eat sometimes.
Yes fire wood here averages 75 per pickup load. Coal about 100 ton.. 
Had spray foam insulation put in the shop when they did the house. Worked on a couple living quarter
Horse trailers last winter in the shop and had to turn on their a/c's to cool down . The foam does a excellent job and seals really well and sticks to any surface .


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

ARD Farm said:


> You have anything worth burning as (firewood) in Fla?


Plenty of oak. If you just wanna BBQ, citrus wood puts a nice sweet flavor in yer meat. (OK, not as good flavor as pecan, but way better than charcoal or propane.)


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## Bags (Nov 17, 2013)

Were averaging $150 per cord of pinion/pine here in colorful Colorado.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

JD3430 said:


> Unfortunately, liberals/enviro wackos are going to take care of putting wood burners out of business.


I belive they already have..... From what I've been able to read/obtain concerning the EPA mandates on particulate emissions, woodburning appliances must adhere to Tier 4 guidelines (catalytic conversion) of visible particulates (smoke)....

Exempted are bio-fuel/multi-fuel appliances (corn/pellet/bio-fuel) stoves.because they are already efficient enough (70-85%) that they emit little in visible particulates.

So yes, the smoky, stinky outdoor wood boiler/funace is a dinosaur. While not a liberal or enviro-wacko, IMO, thats not all bad.

People hav the right to stay warm. They don't have the right to degrade others living quality with their noxious emissions.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ARD Farm said:


> I belive they already have..... From what I've been able to read/obtain concerning the EPA mandates on particulate emissions, woodburning appliances must adhere to Tier 4 guidelines (catalytic conversion) of visible particulates (smoke)....
> 
> Exempted are bio-fuel/multi-fuel appliances (corn/pellet/bio-fuel) stoves.because they are already efficient enough (70-85%) that they emit little in visible particulates.
> 
> ...


Ok enviro wacko....lol
J/k
I'm sick of govt regulations, not so much on stoves, but on tractors and equipment. It's gotten to the point where the equipment is so expensive, that they're nearing impossible to buy. Then when the crap they bolt on the exhaust breaks, its ridiculous expensive to fix. 
The govt can kiss my ass and stick their regulations where the sun don't shine.
I'll stick with pre tier 4 equipment until private industry figures out how to make govt fantasy cheap enough for a working person to afford.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

ARD Farm said:


> I belive they already have..... From what I've been able to read/obtain concerning the EPA mandates on particulate emissions, woodburning appliances must adhere to Tier 4 guidelines (catalytic conversion) of visible particulates (smoke)....
> 
> Exempted are bio-fuel/multi-fuel appliances (corn/pellet/bio-fuel) stoves.because they are already efficient enough (70-85%) that they emit little in visible particulates.
> 
> ...


What is the difference in emissions from a cord of wood if either burnt or rotted in the woods?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

If wood smoke is actually bad how is barbecue legal? If there was anything wrong with it some branch of the gov would have outlawed it already. I can concentrate it and eat it (smoke) but it is bad for the environment?

I challenge anyone who thinks woodsmoke is bad to a contest:

They tell me whats cleaner and better. Then they show me by cooking their food in an equal amount of exhaust as me smoking on a bbq. Including eating the liquid smoke.

Any takers?


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## cornshucker (Aug 22, 2011)

Friend of ours runs sawmill down the road from us, has a firewood processor told me that this would probably be his last year selling firewood across county line because if he sell any across the county lines that the wood would have to be heat treated to kill gypsy moth larvae. On the particulate emissions I wonder if the next lightning bolt that starts a huge forest fire if the liberal bastards will try to regulate GOD.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> If wood smoke is actually bad how is barbecue legal? If there was anything wrong with it some branch of the gov would have outlawed it already. I can concentrate it and eat it (smoke) but it is bad for the environment?
> 
> I challenge anyone who thinks woodsmoke is bad to a contest:
> 
> ...


Breathing particulates is bad for you. Really any junk you get in your lungs is bad. (In addition to smoke being a very real nuisance.)

Eating liquid smoke does not affect your lungs. It also doesn't affect your neighbors.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Breathing particulates is bad for you. Really any junk you get in your lungs is bad. (In addition to smoke being a very real nuisance.)
> 
> Eating liquid smoke does not affect your lungs. It also doesn't affect your neighbors.


Liquid smoke from wood and liquid smoke from a petroleum product are not comparable. Neither are their emissions.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> Liquid smoke from wood and liquid smoke from a petroleum product are not comparable. Neither are their emissions.


Whenever I see a bottle of liquid petroleum smoke for sale, I'll worry about comparing them.

Ask someone with asthma what they think of smoke. Any smoke. Nobody said wood smoke is the same as petro smoke. They don't have to be the same to both be bad for you.

If you are on the middle of nowhere, your woodburner smoke is next to meaningless. If you are in a residential area, there is good reason to clean it up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Meanwhile the jackass down the street that burns firewood in his fireplace all week during cold days gets ZERO regulation.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> What is the difference in emissions from a cord of wood if either burnt or rotted in the woods?


The rotted wood is much worse. It attracts carpenter ants which could eat the sill plates and studs out of a taxpayer subsidized housing complex, costing a fortune in taxpayer money to repair.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Whenever I see a bottle of liquid petroleum smoke for sale, I'll worry about comparing them.
> 
> Ask someone with asthma what they think of smoke. Any smoke. Nobody said wood smoke is the same as petro smoke. They don't have to be the same to both be bad for you.
> 
> If you are on the middle of nowhere, your woodburner smoke is next to meaningless. If you are in a residential area, there is good reason to clean it up.


$25 PLUS shipping. Liquid smoke-petroleum based. Not for human consumption.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I will make a special exception for you and even take a check.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

The Century Insert Stove we put in a few years ago met the old EPA standards, it puts out 2.56 grams/hour. I believe the new standard will be about half that. My stove is a non-catalytic and puts off very little smoke. The old Buck insert we had had numerous cracks in it and eat wood like crazy. We really like this new stove, glad we bought when we did. I think the new standards kick in in 2015 or 16 and I suspect it's going to put some companies out of business. Supposedly all stoves built before the new standards kick will not be affected.

It's got stainless steel tubes up top that burn off excess gases, you can actually see flames coming out of the tubes.










http://www.century-heating.com/en/products/wood/wood-insert-model-cw2500


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If wood smoke wasn't bad, we wouldn't have so many people killed in house fires. Improperly burned its full of hundreds of types of toxins and compounds. Cleanly burned its not much than water vapour and CO2.

Those outdoor boilers have a bad reputation here from people jamming them full, choking them down and smoking out everyone for miles around with terrible smoke. Guys on top of hills on wet mornings flood entire towns below them with choking thick smog. They obviously smoke themselves out too as some build a nice 30 ft stack to make sure the smoke lands on the neighbour and not themselves. To me its like throwing your garbage over the fence.

We heat with wood and try to burn well seasoned wood very cleanly for our health and the neighbours health too. Only takes a few bad apples to get a town to write ordinances banning wood burning.

-------------------

I challenge anyone who thinks woodsmoke is bad to a contest:


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> If wood smoke wasn't bad, we wouldn't have so many people killed in house fires. Improperly burned its full of hundreds of types of toxins and compounds. Cleanly burned its not much than water vapour and CO2.
> 
> Those outdoor boilers have a bad reputation here from people jamming them full, choking them down and smoking out everyone for miles around with terrible smoke. Guys on top of hills on wet mornings flood entire towns below them with choking thick smog. They obviously smoke themselves out too as some build a nice 30 ft stack to make sure the smoke lands on the neighbour and not themselves. To me its like throwing your garbage over the fence.
> 
> ...


Well then I think you and your neighbors should be regulated and checked by the govt and fined if you burn any wood that results in particulates. If your neighbors are creating a health hazard, then your govt needs to step in, requiring permits, particulate traps and monitoring systems for EVERYONE that burns wood. Just because you re conciencious, doesnt mean you cant slip up once in a while and make some smoke or particulates. 
That's the only fair way to do it.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

That sounds a bit sarcastic given what I understand of your political convictions? Wood burning is a long tradition here as a "free" heat source. If people can be civil and not disturb their neighbours there's no reason to pay someone to police it or to ban it. Ie I've got no trouble with my neighbour sighting in his rifle next to us but if he starts doing it at 3 am every morning or if the lead starts falling on my property I'm gonna have a chat with him. Same as if he starts smoking us out.



JD3430 said:


> Well then I think you and your neighbors should be regulated and checked by the govt and fined if you burn any wood that results in particulates. If your neighbors are creating a health hazard, then your govt needs to step in, requiring permits, particulate traps and monitoring systems for EVERYONE that burns wood. Just because you re conciencious, doesnt mean you cant slip up once in a while and make some smoke or particulates.
> That's the only fair way to do it.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> If wood smoke wasn't bad, we wouldn't have so many people killed in house fires.


Most people that are killed in house fires that die from smoke inhalation are dying from deadly gaseous toxins from plastics and synthetics....not wood.

Regards, Mike


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

Vol said:


> Most people that are killed in house fires that die from smoke inhalation are dying from deadly gaseous toxins from plastics and synthetics....not wood.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Some may die from toxins of various types, but I believe most fire related fatalities are caused by the inhalation of super heated air!

Dave


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

[/quote][/quote]



Vol said:


> Most people that are killed in house fires that die from smoke inhalation are dying from deadly gaseous toxins from plastics and synthetics....not wood.
> 
> Regards, Mike





Shetland Sheepdog said:


> Some may die from toxins of various types, but I believe most fire related fatalities are caused by the inhalation of super heated air!
> 
> Dave


Sorry Mike, I kinda skipped over the "die from smoke inhalation" qualifier! With that in mind, I agree with your post!

Dave

PS: I didn't realize what a "can of worms" I was opening when I started this thread!  

[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

Shetland Sheepdog said:


> Just reading two ads in our local market bulletin!
> 
> One said $350.00 for a 1/4 cord, other said $684.00 up for a 1/3 cord !!!!!
> 
> I mean really!!!


Both of those guys are tapping into a specialty market. They are going to apartment/condo owners with a fireplace those prices include stacking and the expensive guy will let you choose what wood you want.

I never saw the profit margin in firewood. There is always a broke dude with a truck and a saw who will sell it for 150 a cord.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Yes its true older wood housing was less dangerous that todays plastic loaded houses, but wood combustion in an oxygen limited fire produces almost the same types of toxins. Aldehydes, tars, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, soot, HCN (aka cyanide) etc. About the only thing it really doesn't make are the chlorine compounds that chlorinated plastics make.

Edit - except a lot of people with outdoor boiler treat them like incinerators and fire garbage and plastics through them too.



Vol said:


> Most people that are killed in house fires that die from smoke inhalation are dying from deadly gaseous toxins from plastics and synthetics....not wood.
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Correct on the the garbage and unseasoned wood. I smell that occasionally near some who burn wood. hlHERE I burn seasoned wood in a modern stove and on the rare occasion that I smell smoke outside it is a sweet smell.

I am not supporting breathing smoke nor am I the same with exhaust. The fact is plants cycle the smoke from wood into more plants. Where I had a nice clean woodfire and mowed over the ashes and charcoal left became the greenest part of my lawn later in the year. Last I checked any petroleum fire doesn't have this affect. The residue from the fuel renders the soil barren.


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

By the way, I run a Jonsereds 70-E as my "big" saw, and a Husky & 2 Stihls as my "go to" saws!  

Dave


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

A little history!

At the end of the seventies, all three Swedish chainsaw manufacturers, Partner, Husqvarna and Jonsered, were bought by Electrolux. The new owners decided that Partner from now on was to be marketed solely as a semi-pro and hobby brand.

The new range soon proved to be a success. Among the best-sellers were the tractors and a lightweight trimmer called Colibri. In 2003, the brand introduced lawnmowers with large rear wheels in Europe, a rare design development for this product category. In 2006, Electrolux disposed of its garden brands, including Partner, and they were all collected in the newly formed company Husqvarna AB.

I hope this explains the similarities with Husqvarna & Jonsereds.

Dave


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> Yes its true older wood housing was less dangerous that todays plastic loaded houses, but wood combustion in an oxygen limited fire produces almost the same types of toxins. Aldehydes, tars, carbon monoxide, hydrocarbons, soot, HCN (aka cyanide) etc. About the only thing it really doesn't make are the chlorine compounds that chlorinated plastics make.


There are a lot more toxins in todays fires from sources other than wood than what you have listed....

See "Breath From Hell".

Regards, Mike

http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighter-safety-and-health/carbon-monoxide-hydrogen-cyanide-make-today-s-fires-more-dangerous

*The Breath from Hell*
Understanding CO and HCN is especially crucial to today's fire service, because the smoke that firefighters were exposed to 20 or 30 years ago is not the same as it is today. Wood, cellulose, cotton, silk, wool, etc., were bad decades ago, but they were nowhere near as toxic as the chemically-manufactured materials of today.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Definitely sounds like a yuppie market. Depends on species too. Ten years ago I heard of a guy selling apple too the uppity ups in the city for 100 a facecord

Firewood is a tough sell here prices anywhere from 40-55 a facecord


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Alot of chimney fires here due to mostly a lack of knowledge of the importance of burning seasoned wood

Neighbor put in his new to him outdoor wood boiler....six feet from his house....on the northwest side of the house. If he doesn't put a tall pipe on it he is gonna have a soot covered smoke filled house at the least...


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The writer of the article has confused a few things, he's named a bunch of plastics in that first list but labelled them as compounds in the "breath of hell". Thats not correct, the plastics break down into the items I've listed and he listed below and more, just like wood does.

The difference is they do this faster in most plastics so you get more smoke and more of some types of compounds in the smoke. Other issue is we put so much stuff/belongings/furnishings in our houses now compared to 50+ years ago, there is more pounds of stuff to burn.

If you want to search, there are yield tables for different fuel and ventilation configurations that help predict the lbs per pound of different smoke components. Some plastics are pretty clean but some produce amazing levels of nasty stuff. Same with wood, some species in some configurations it produces a huge amount of nasty stuff.



Vol said:


> There are a lot more toxins in todays fires from sources other than wood than what you have listed....
> 
> See "Breath From Hell".
> 
> ...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> The writer of the article has confused a few things, he's named a bunch of plastics in that first list but labelled them as compounds in the "breath of hell". Thats not correct, the plastics break down into the items I've listed and he listed below and more, just like wood does.


Maybe you need to contact the author and set him straight....I am sure that him being a Captain, instructor, and a 30 year veteran that he would like to hear your expertise.

Regards, Mike


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Grateful11 said:


> The Century Insert Stove we put in a few years ago met the old EPA standards, it puts out 2.56 grams/hour. I believe the new standard will be about half that. My stove is a non-catalytic and puts off very little smoke. The old Buck insert we had had numerous cracks in it and eat wood like crazy. We really like this new stove, glad we bought when we did. I think the new standards kick in in 2015 or 16 and I suspect it's going to put some companies out of business. Supposedly all stoves built before the new standards kick will not be affected.
> 
> It's got stainless steel tubes up top that burn off excess gases, you can actually see flames coming out of the tubes.
> 
> ...


Thats called gasification btw. Thats how a modern solid fuel boiler operates. The company I work for has a Hurst (www.hurstboiler.com) 250 horsepower Scotchback (design of the firebox and flame path) wet tube, high pressure bio-mass gasification boiler, that runs on wood chips from the commrcial chipping of trees.

They use it for building heat and as a backup heat source for their steel processing (pickling).

It's fully computerized and has it's own automatic blow down and fly ash reclaimation system and bag house. All that comes out of the stack (visible) is heat and ocassionally steam when it blows down.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Maybe I should, it doesn't change the articles point though re the hazards of plastics. The names of types of plastics are not the names of compounds formed in smoke. Being a good fire fighter doesn't make you good at chemistry. Just as being a mech eng practising in fire protection engineering doesn't make you good at fighting fires.

When you burn wood (or cotton, or straw or tobacco or leaves etc etc) you can end up making the same basic groups of chemicals as wood if its burnt without adequate air.

Wood is low in sulfur and chlorine so it can't make some kinds of compounds, plastic is low in sulfer too but some types (PVC) contain chlorine which opens up a whole other range of nasty stuff. Straight polyethylene or polypropylene don't have any chlorine and gives a lot of the same stuff as wood burning.

All this to say outdoor wood boilers burning wood can produce nasty smoke even if you don't burn plastic in them.



Vol said:


> Maybe you need to contact the author and set him straight....I am sure that him being a Captain, instructor, and a 30 year veteran that he would like to hear your expertise.
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Fired up the bio mass stove last night...... 73 in here, feels good. Just idling away. Letting the computer control the oxidation rate, input air and exhaust flow. Got the auxillary draft closed all the way Flue temperature is about 350 degrees and HX temp is around 250.running at about 1.5 pounds of fuel per hour.

When it gets cold outside and the wind is howling, I can push the HX temprature to over 450 degrees (over 500 running straight 15%RM shelled corn) and still let the computer run the unit. 450 equates to about 60K BTU output.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> Being a good fire fighter doesn't make you good at chemistry.


I think Mr. Shoebridge is more than a "firefighter".

*References*


Kimmerle G. Aspects and methodology for the evaluation of toxicological parameters during fire exposure. Combustion Toxicology. 1974;1-451.
Fire Frank L. Combustibility of Plastics. Fire Engineering Books: 1991.
Gagliano M., Phillips C., Jose P., et al. Air Management for the Fire Service. Fire Engineering Books: 2008.

Todd Shoebridge

Todd Shoebridge is a 30-year fire service veteran and captain/EMT with the Hickory (N.C.) Fire Department, where he has served for 20 years. He also serves as North Carolina's lead advocate for the Everyone Goes Home program, and he holds certifications as a National Registry (PROBOARD) Fire Officer III, rapid intervention and NFA mayday instructor, hazmat technician, level II fire service instructor, basic VMR rescue technician, and fire/arson investigator (CFI) through the North Carolina Fire and Rescue Commission. Shoebridge holds associate's degrees in biology and ecology from Montreat College, and is completing his bachelor's degree in fire science at the University of Maryland.


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## cornshucker (Aug 22, 2011)

Vol said:


> I think Mr. Shoebridge is more than a "firefighter".
> 
> *References*
> 
> ...


I do believe this guy is very qualified!!!!!!


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't know him personally so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume an editor messed up something in the article that caused the mistake.

Maryland is a great fire protection engineering school, they have a lot of practical experience too for the people who attend in person. WPI is good as well. I work in an office full of grads from both programs. I think the writer of the article will enjoy the program very much and give him a better understanding of the practical work he has done in the field.



Vol said:


> I think Mr. Shoebridge is more than a "firefighter".
> 
> "is completing his bachelor's degree in fire science at the University of Maryland. "


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