# Maryland custom harvesting - are my folks getting scammed ?



## CCKL (Jun 14, 2012)

Hey - just wondering if my folks are getting scammed or not - thought I'd ask you experts for your opinion

- my folks have two big fields in MD horse country.
- I think the hay guys baled apx 150 big square and about 6 small square bundles ( 21 each) off this cutting
- I just learned that they have no formal agreement w. the guy who does the cutting. In fact , they let him do it for free, in exchange for small square bales.
- The new guys don't stack the small bales they leave them, they just put a couple small bale bundles in the open , outside the barn ( which you Can drive right into ) and my 83+ dad went about trying to stack them himself. . . 
- there's about an acre or two which can't be hayed, but must be bushhogged every once in a while, they want it to be part of the overall deal but the guys ignored this and my parents are really timid and confused about whats going on .

I want to help sort things out in a fair and functioning way -this aint rocket science - just make an agreement and stick to it , right ? : )

Questions:
- should they have a formal (written) agreement ? typically made for 1 year ? 5 years ?

- what is a typical price x acre and/or price x bale ?
- probablystacked hay requires an additional fee ? whats a typical fee ?
- what would be a good way to include apx 1 acre bushohhoging in the deal ?
- my folks don't allow sprays or fert - this probably knocks down the quality a little - maybe becomes cow not horse hay - dunno . . .

Help ! Thanks !


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Not allowing the fertilize is going to throw a monkey wrench in most deals. Bales per acre will be low in count and it is hard to break even most times.

I would have a talk with the hay guys and see what they thought was a good deal. Remember a good deal is only good if it is a Good Deal for both parties.
I round bale 3 fields that are not my own. All three deals are different.

1) Owner fertilizes a high yielding field. I cut, fluff, rake and bale.
We split the hay. He moves his hay to the barn. He sells his part.

2) The owner says to do what I want. He is too old to farm and wants it kept clean. I can fertilize, spray to do what I want. I pay no rent. He was surprised when I limed and fertilized. The production has more than doubled and the grass it thick and green.
We are both happy.

3) I got this field the first of the month because the previous guy would not lime or fertilize, or do some minor up keep. They have never charged anyone rent on the field.
The widow lady wanted her dam area cut when he cut the hay. He did not.
She wanted him to fertilize to rebuild the soil. He said money was too tight.
They did not have a written agreement and she gave him until the end of the month. She called and gave it to me.
I have mowed her dam with my lawn mower twice since the first of the month and cleared brush that was creeping into the field edge.
I have baled the field and have fertilizer scheduled for next week.
She has called me twice telling me I am doing too much and how nice everything looks. I would jump through hoops to keep this field. It is that nice.

Personally I do not believe that stacking the hay or bush hogging is too much to ask. The unknown factor is are they getting enough hay per acre to make it worth their time?
Not being able to fertilize is going to cut down on production and they may feel they are spending too much time and fuel to do much more.
There are unproductive fields here that I have refused. There is little hay and the people just want it cleaned up and not have to pay to have it bush hogged.
Talk to the guys and ask them if they believe you are asking too much.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

I would agree the no fertilizer could be a real challenge, I also live in Maryland in cecil county, about 10 miles from the Delaware line and 1 mile from Pa line. If Your parents live close I could look at it and give you a better idea what it is worth.


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## heappyfaula (Jun 15, 2012)

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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bob M said:


> I would agree the no fertilizer could be a real challenge, I also live in Maryland in cecil county, about 10 miles from the Delaware line and 1 mile from Pa line. If Your parents live close I could look at it and give you a better idea what it is worth.


Live just a bit north of you, Bob. I think that the hay contractor should stack the hay inside for the amount of hay he is getting. Doesn't sound like it would take more than a few hours and it's just the right thing to do for people in their 80's. The hay contractor is paying no rent, so a little hay stacking and bush hogging doesn't sound like too much to ask.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Short answer, no, I do not think your folks are getting scammed and asking the hay cutter to bushhog a couple of acres and drop off 42 small squares INSIDE the barn is not too much to ask in exchange for several thousand dollars worth of hay. To me, it would be a common courtesy.

The scenarios posted by Tim/South are fairly typical and I have done similar deals in the past.

As others have noted, not being able to fertilize or spray severely inhibits the quality and quantity of hay. Not sure why your parents don't want them to do that as it would only inprove the quality of their fields. You might want to talk to your parents about that.

Should they have a contract? With the current deal, I would say that it is not necessary. However, if I were the hay cutter and they allowed me to fertilize and spray, I would want at least a one year contract to protect my investment.


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## CCKL (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks for all those replies - 
Tim/South - i agree that its not a good deal unless its a good deal for both parties - we're not trying to stick the hey guys at all - i just know that my folks are standing up for themselves at all either..

To those who offered to check the place out - i think we're too far south of you - but thank you for the offer anyway.

The thing is, I know the Hay guys do lease Some of the fields they hay - but I realize that there's always going to be a different set up with each situation ...

I guess it boils down to :

$hay they get vs $ small square bales +stacking + bushhogging ?

i'm justing guessing at these numbers, but let's say per cutting:
(they keep) 150 big sqaure bales @ $50 = $7,500
(we keep) small square: 126 bales @ $5 = $630 
stacking fee= $50
mowing fee= $50

that's
$7,500 vs $730

even including labor, I just have this feeling that the hay guys are taking advantage of my folks ,,,, I don't know what they have to clear on the field for it to be worth their while , but this all adds up funny....
if you have any comments/ suggestions re numbers that cool i'm just guessing them ....

Thanks !!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Do you have an idea on the number of acres these fields total?
If they getting 150 big squares and 126 small squares per cutting on 50 acres unfertilized then they are probably doing alright. (Just guessing, I do not do large squares and they come in different sizes)
If they are cutting 300 acres to get those numbers then maybe not so well.
Is this mixed grass hay or a specific type hay?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

How large are these fields or did I miss that? The going rate around here is 30 acre for rent, thats on a good established field, fertilizer is the key, down here if you don't fertilize you may as well leave the equipment at home cause it won't pay off for you, If the guy is cutting the field and baling and will not stack that hay and run a bush hog every once and a while I would say........fire him, either get someone to maintain the field fairly or just rent him the field for x nmbr of dollars, but stipulate the other requirements. I personally think it's sorry as hell to allow a 83 yr old land owner to stack hay when I'm cutting his field and not paying for it, regardless of yield. Need to talk to parents about allowing harvesters to fertilize.....I just don't understand why they wouldn't want that, bizarre.......
I cut a mans 25 acres, give him 75 rolls for the year, always first cutting or busted bales....but I spray roundup, take bushog up to the field a couple of times a year, and move and stack his round bales.....my 2 cents


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Around here people also pay $20 to $30 per acre per year. Our property taxes on Current Use Ag land are dirt cheap. 
I understand rent is higher in areas where property taxes are more.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Stop it...$20-$30 rents? Can't touch a mudhole around here anymore for less than $150/acre, highly productive land that is tiled well or has irrigation is over $300/acre.

We really need to know the acreage involved here to give a fair opinion. If it's fairly productive forage and their not covering a ton of acres to get those 150 bales then I'd think at the very least they could stack the hay for your parents. If it's taking a rather large amount of acreage to get those bales then you have to figure the profit they are making is much less per hour. Unless your the federal government you can't stay in business long if your not turning at least a small profit.

What size big bales? I'm guessing with the weather in MD most likely 3x3x7 or 8'? Need to have a little better ideal of the tonnage per acre they are getting for their time involved.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Well farm land for row crops with pivot rents for 250-300 ac. If you are paying more than 60 acre for dry hay land you will be hard pressed to make those nbrs work for you, unmanaged....20-30 tops. In this neck o the woods


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Well farm land for row crops with pivot rents for 250-300 ac. If you are paying more than 60 acre for dry hay land you will be hard pressed to make those nbrs work for you, unmanaged....20-30 tops. In this neck o the woods


Yah, even hay ground around here is going for around $150/acre. Anything you can get for $100/acre or less isn't worth farming. Too wet, too dry, too rocky, or just looks like a geometry problem from hell.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Never was real good in geometry!


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