# Obamacare



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Anyone self employed have to shop for health insurance by December . The wife and I are both 57 years old plans for us in the Silver level are $1100 to $1600 per month and also the deductibles and out of pocket and percentage of payment for surgery procedures has made a turn for the worst . We have till the 15th if we want insurance next year through the exchange and I haven't decided what I'm going to do


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

The worst is yet to come.
Hope you stay healthy and never actually have to use it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

It's not only the self employed.Not all employers pay employee insurance and some pay a percentage.Some employers have dropped coverage because of skyrocketing premiums.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I handle the insurance for our 20 employee company. Our increase stabilized this past year. Something like 10% as opposed to the 30% we were seeing in the past..

Insurance is such a crazy issue. Our company covers 2/3 of the cost of a "family" plan. Employee must cover the rest which is currently $104/week. One of our employees wives just got a job as a secretary at the local school. Family plan insurance for them through the school is $7 per week. Sure makes our benefits look bad when a school can offer that...

The other MAJOR issue that Obummer wasn't smart enough to think through is the deductible. Our plan has a high deductible, but the employee only covers $500 or $1000 (single vs family). Our company covers the rest of the deductible cost. Its our (the companys) way of "self insuring" and keeping premiums reasonable. This has worked well because our employees are responsible, don't smoke and don't drink to excess. Their lifestyle is lower risk.... Unfortunately our plan currently has the highest deductible allowed by law even though the employee only pays a fraction of the deductible. There is no provision in ObamaCare that looks at what portion of the deductible the employee covers.

Soon we will get to the point that the insurance will be too costly to afford but you cant go to a higher deductible to reduce the premium because there is a max on the deductible...


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

My families insurance (not through Obamacare) went up to $1270 a month from $1090. But also the deductable when up from $7250 to $8300? So I have to pay $23,500 before insurance pays for anything over the course of the year. After that it is 100% of everything. We both are 40 and have 2 kids. What I fear more then the present payment is what will it be in 20 years. Or heck even 10 years. I have to have a CT scan every year so there goes $6500 of that deductable. Last year I was sorta thankful for the policy as it paid for maternity where before our plans never paid for maternity. Plus our son had to spend 10 days in the NICU after he was born. The insurance was billed over $100k for all of that.

On the next ballot is a single payer health system for Colorado for anyone under medicare age. It all sounds good. It will take an additional 10% state income tax to pay for it. Which for most people including myself would be much cheaper. Of course the big problem with that is that the Colorado government would run that. The Colorado dept of Revenue is a mess as it is. Why would I trust them to be able to run a huge government run insurance company. A better idea would be to higher 2-3 insurance companies to run the system. We'll see where that goes.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

PaMike said:


> I handle the insurance for our 20 employee company. Our increase stabilized this past year. Something like 10% as opposed to the 30% we were seeing in the past..
> Insurance is such a crazy issue. Our company covers 2/3 of the cost of a "family" plan. Employee must cover the rest which is currently $104/week. One of our employees wives just got a job as a secretary at the local school. Family plan insurance for them through the school is $7 per week. Sure makes our benefits look bad when a school can offer that...
> The other MAJOR issue that Obummer wasn't smart enough to think through is the deductible. Our plan has a high deductible, but the employee only covers $500 or $1000 (single vs family). Our company covers the rest of the deductible cost. Its our (the companys) way of "self insuring" and keeping premiums reasonable. This has worked well because our employees are responsible, don't smoke and don't drink to excess. Their lifestyle is lower risk.... Unfortunately our plan currently has the highest deductible allowed by law even though the employee only pays a fraction of the deductible. There is no provision in ObamaCare that looks at what portion of the deductible the employee covers.
> Soon we will get to the point that the insurance will be too costly to afford but you cant go to a higher deductible to reduce the premium because there is a max on the deductible...


Wow, so how much is the deductible currently? At some point, these plans are useless if the deductible is say 30k, wait I take that back.....say 100k. So what exactly are we insuring....just against a major catastrophe? Of course, as I eluded to earlier, a major accident/health issue can cost into the millions in just a few days.....
I used to say, just give me a plan for the major stuff with a high deductible, no drug card (I'll pay my way) no emergency room visits, no doctor visits, etc.....no smokescreens, don't want my dental, eyes included (again, I'll pay my way)... at this point, I'm not sure that's doable anymore (even tho I never got that kinda deal) 
There are problems all across the board......skyrocketing premiums, but what do we expect with the ever changing language. Skyrocketing hospital costs, most have monoplies in certain locales. Skyrocketing drug costs, they are CRAZY expensive. Insurance of all kinds.....medical malpractice, workers comp, general liability, etc. across the board (goes back to too many attny's). Salaries and benefits......we have employees with 6-8 weeks of paid vacation nowadays.....that's absurd. Plenty more to go around but the reasons are


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Teslan said:


> My families insurance (not through Obamacare) went up to $1270 a month from $1090. But also the deductable when up from $7250 to $8300? So I have to pay $23,500 before insurance pays for anything over the course of the year. After that it is 100% of everything. We both are 40 and have 2 kids. What I fear more then the present payment is what will it be in 20 years. Or heck even 10 years. I have to have a CT scan every year so there goes $6500 of that deductable. Last year I was sorta thankful for the policy as it paid for maternity where before our plans never paid for maternity. Plus our son had to spend 10 days in the NICU after he was born. The insurance was billed over $100k for all of that.
> 
> On the next ballot is a single payer health system for Colorado for anyone under medicare age. It all sounds good. It will take an additional 10% state income tax to pay for it. Which for most people including myself would be much cheaper. Of course the big problem with that is that the Colorado government would run that. The Colorado dept of Revenue is a mess as it is. Why would I trust them to be able to run a huge government run insurance company. A better idea would be to higher 2-3 insurance companies to run the system. We'll see where that goes.


I feel your pain brother......rest assured that Colorado does not need to be running anything at this juncture, nor does the state of Georgia, Florida, PA, or Big Brother.....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

But but but the Big O said it would save everyone $2500 a year&#8230;..

This all makes perfect sense when you realize that:

A: its not about insuring people, its about redistributing wealth

B: It's not about insuring people but giving the government even more power over more people


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> Wow, so how much is the deductible currently? At some point, these plans are useless if the deductible is say 30k, wait I take that back.....say 100k. So what exactly are we insuring....just against a major catastrophe? Of course, as I eluded to earlier, a major accident/health issue can cost into the millions in just a few days.....
> I used to say, just give me a plan for the major stuff with a high deductible, no drug card (I'll pay my way) no emergency room visits, no doctor visits, etc.....no smokescreens, don't want my dental, eyes included (again, I'll pay my way)... at this point, I'm not sure that's doable anymore (even tho I never got that kinda deal)
> There are problems all across the board......skyrocketing premiums, but what do we expect with the ever changing language. Skyrocketing hospital costs, most have monoplies in certain locales. Skyrocketing drug costs, they are CRAZY expensive. Insurance of all kinds.....medical malpractice, workers comp, general liability, etc. across the board (goes back to too many attny's). Salaries and benefits......we have employees with 6-8 weeks of paid vacation nowadays.....that's absurd. Plenty more to go around but the reasons are


Obama care is a wealth redistribution system disguised as a health care system. It takes your extremely high fees and redistributes them to people without the means or desire to pay.
It really has little to do with health care.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Currently our plan has a $2250 deductible for single and $4500 for a family. The company covers $1750 of the single deductible and $3500 of the family deductible PLUS we pay about $100K a year in premium.. We cant go the self insured route because no insurance company will take a small group. I think the min size is 50 employees.

The first year of Obamacare I heard of a few people saving money. Now I don't know of anyone saving money....


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

Teslan said:


> My families insurance (not through Obamacare) went up to $1270 a month from $1090. But also the deductable when up from $7250 to $8300? So I have to pay $23,500 before insurance pays for anything over the course of the year. After that it is 100% of everything. We both are 40 and have 2 kids. What I fear more then the present payment is what will it be in 20 years. Or heck even 10 years. I have to have a CT scan every year so there goes $6500 of that deductable. Last year I was sorta thankful for the policy as it paid for maternity where before our plans never paid for maternity. Plus our son had to spend 10 days in the NICU after he was born. The insurance was billed over $100k for all of that.
> 
> On the next ballot is a single payer health system for Colorado for anyone under medicare age. It all sounds good. It will take an additional 10% state income tax to pay for it. Which for most people including myself would be much cheaper. Of course the big problem with that is that the Colorado government would run that. The Colorado dept of Revenue is a mess as it is. Why would I trust them to be able to run a huge government run insurance company. A better idea would be to higher 2-3 insurance companies to run the system. We'll see where that goes.


So is your policy an old policy that was grandfathered in? I have a grandfathered HSA policy with me, the wife and kid and its starting to push $1K/month with a $6000 deductible.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I am self-employed and have health insurance for my 2 boys and I through BCBS. Rates going up slightly from $364 to $372 a month after first of the year. The deductible is over $24,000. Good thing we are healthy. I don't even want to know what the premiums would be to get the deductible down to something decent.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

IH 1586 said:


> I am self-employed and have health insurance for my 2 boys and I through BCBS. Rates going up slightly from $364 to $372 a month after first of the year. The deductible is over $24,000. Good thing we are healthy. I don't even want to know what the premiums would be to get the deductible down to something decent.


Thought we where healthy to, but accidents happen fast. At last count, my wife said bills on our 14 year old's firework to the eye was at $110,000 and she was sure we had not seen them all. Would have been screwed with out insurance.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

My understanding is the old grandfathered plans are done at the end of this year. They will no longer be available. You have to pick a plan that meets the ObamaCare standards.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Bonfire said:


> So is your policy an old policy that was grandfathered in? I have a grandfathered HSA policy with me, the wife and kid and its starting to push $1K/month with a $6000 deductible.


No it's a new one with Humana that meets Obamacare standards. We had a grandfathered one by Humana in 2014 That would would have been close in premium to what we have now, but the deductable was only $2500 and paid 80% of claims until I paid $2000 more and then 100% was covered. However it didn't pay for maternity or child birth. So we figured at the end of last year that it most likely was going to get cancelled so we switched to our new Obamacare standards Jan 1 2015. In time to pay for the birth of our new son in April. We figured it would suck for us to have to pay maternity costs and birth of our new son ourself only to have that grandfathered plan cancelled and have to get a new policy anyways. So it kinda was a gamble to get a new Obamacare plan. Who knows if I won or lost. If what PAmike says is right we won.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

haybaler101 said:


> Thought we where healthy to, but accidents happen fast. At last count, my wife said bills on our 14 year old's firework to the eye was at $110,000 and she was sure we had not seen them all. Would have been screwed with out insurance.


This was before Obamacare, but I thought I was healthy. Then got cancer. Treatments for that was over $140,000. We would have been screwed without insurance also. You never know what can happen.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Place I worked for notified us we would be losing our group health plan February 1. It got too expensive for them to continue it. They also decided not to give us a raise die to suppressed at economy. Quit my job and have no plans for health insurance. Wife and son are in her plan with school district, and that's too expensive to add me. If something goes wrong with my health, I have DNR on my drivers license now...


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

IH 1586 said:


> I am self-employed and have health insurance for my 2 boys and I through BCBS. Rates going up slightly from $364 to $372 a month after first of the year. The deductible is over $24,000. Good thing we are healthy. I don't even want to know what the premiums would be to get the deductible down to something decent.





haybaler101 said:


> Thought we where healthy to, but accidents happen fast. At last count, my wife said bills on our 14 year old's firework to the eye was at $110,000 and she was sure we had not seen them all. Would have been screwed with out insurance.


My wife's open heart was around $104,000 from the only statement I seen, probably more as we never seen a bill from the surgeon or a bill for the valve, St. Vincents was fantastic to work with.

Her AICD was replaced last March, $74000 for the unit and another $12,000 for a one night stay at the hospital.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Stack- Cant you shop for coverage on the gov marketplace? You should be able to get coverage for just you at a decent rate. Rates are not based on age,gender, geographic location and if you use tobacco. You should be able to get something....

I cant believe an equipment dealer is in business that doesn't have health insurance. In this area a dealer wouldn't have any employees if that was as good as the benefits got...


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

PaMike said:


> Stack- Cant you shop for coverage on the gov marketplace? You should be able to get coverage for just you at a decent rate. Rates are not based on age,gender, geographic location and if you use tobacco. You should be able to get something....
> 
> I cant believe an equipment dealer is in business that doesn't have health insurance. In this area a dealer wouldn't have any employees if that was as good as the benefits got...


Gov marketplace here is no cheaper then searching the insurance companies websites outside of it here in Colorado Plus they are worse plans. But I guess if your income level is right you can get the tax credits if you buy through the marketplace.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

stack em up said:


> Place I worked for notified us we would be losing our group health plan February 1. It got too expensive for them to continue it. They also decided not to give us a raise die to suppressed at economy. Quit my job and have no plans for health insurance. Wife and son are in her plan with school district, and that's too expensive to add me. If something goes wrong with my health, I have DNR on my drivers license now...


Nowadays if ya checked "organ donor" ya might not even have to have a DNR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Teslan said:


> My families insurance (not through Obamacare) went up to $1270 a month from $1090. But also the deductable when up from $7250 to $8300? So I have to pay $23,500 before insurance pays for anything over the course of the year. After that it is 100% of everything. We both are 40 and have 2 kids. What I fear more then the present payment is what will it be in 20 years. Or heck even 10 years. I have to have a CT scan every year so there goes $6500 of that deductable. Last year I was sorta thankful for the policy as it paid for maternity where before our plans never paid for maternity. Plus our son had to spend 10 days in the NICU after he was born. The insurance was billed over $100k for all of that.
> 
> On the next ballot is a single payer health system for Colorado for anyone under medicare age. It all sounds good. It will take an additional 10% state income tax to pay for it. Which for most people including myself would be much cheaper. Of course the big problem with that is that the Colorado government would run that. The Colorado dept of Revenue is a mess as it is. Why would I trust them to be able to run a huge government run insurance company. A better idea would be to higher 2-3 insurance companies to run the system. We'll see where that goes.


Yall gonna have to do something to take care of all those stoners...

Later! OL JR


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

haybaler101 said:


> Thought we where healthy to, but accidents happen fast. At last count, my wife said bills on our 14 year old's firework to the eye was at $110,000 and she was sure we had not seen them all. Would have been screwed with out insurance.


And that is what the insurance is for, in case something happens. I was just referring to what the cost would be we had known health issues and needed a lower deductible. Was looking at the paper work and the deductible is only $12,000 IF I stay in network.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Health issues no longer affect your rate under Obamacare...kinda nice at first thought...until you realize your rate will be the same as the guy your same age that weights 500 lbs, drinks like a fish, and doesn't care about his general well being.

Rate is based on: Age, Sex, Geographic location and tobacoo use...


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

PaMike said:


> Health issues no longer affect your rate under Obamacare...kinda nice at first thought...until you realize your rate will be the same as the guy your same age that weights 500 lbs, drinks like a fish, and doesn't care about his general well being.
> 
> Rate is based on: Age, Sex, Geographic location and tobacoo use...


No different from healthcare plans anywhere I've ever worked. Everyone paid the same regardless of your health. If you smoke under Obamacare your premium will be different. Wherever I worked if you smoked, drank, whore chased or whatever, the healthy ones paid for the unhealthy ones.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Grateful11 said:


> No different from healthcare plans anywhere I've ever worked. Everyone paid the same regardless of your health. If you smoke under Obamacare your premium will be different. Wherever I worked if you smoked, drank, whore chased or whatever, the healthy ones paid for the unhealthy ones.


Just a thought if one was chasing whores wouldn't that lower ones premiums since that would be exercising thus making you healthy, the problems arise when you catch them. lol


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Thorim said:


> Just a thought if one was chasing whores wouldn't that lower ones premiums since that would be exercising thus making you healthy, the problems arise when you catch them. lol


Don't take much chaseing to catch a whore,lol.Ask Charlie Sheen how well chaseing whores turned out for his health.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

You are correct that the healthy person paid the same as the whore chaser on each PLAN, but each PLAN was rated on their overall health. By PLAN I basically mean each company's health insurance.

At my work we had 20 employees. No one smoked, no one obese. Only one diabetic. We had some decent rates but under ObamaCare our rates are basically and "Average" of America. Sucks for us since we are all people that care about our health and our family's health. By the average we should have a couple smokers, a person or two obese, some diabetics, maybe a drug addict etc etc...


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

If you even only paid the average of the average your rates would be low (comparatively). Built in to your costs now:

Red tape. Lots of it.

Malpractice lawsuits.

Malpractice insurance.

And much more. Cut out the red tape and allow doctors and nurses to do their jobs without excess regulation, and cancer treatment wkuld be cheaper than your premiums.

As it stands, WAY too many people have their hand in the cookie jar.

A truly flawed system made entirely worse by the stroke of a pen. "Don't read it. Just vote for it."

Generations ago treason was dealt with accordingly.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Thorim said:


> Just a thought if one was chasing whores wouldn't that lower ones premiums since that would be exercising thus making you healthy, the problems arise when you catch them. lol


Or WHAT you catch from them...LOL OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

deadmoose said:


> If you even only paid the average of the average your rates would be low (comparatively). Built in to your costs now:
> 
> Red tape. Lots of it.
> 
> ...


They don't make a "like" button big enough to do this justice... SPOT ON!!!

OL JR


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I cover my wife, daughter, and grandson with a corporate policy on one of my companies. It's expensive, but cheaper than O-care when they shopped around. My premium went up about 3% for next year which is a lot less than last year. There are a number of significant problems with O-care that made it just as dysfunctional as our medical system:

1. They made everyone buy insurance, including the young folks who don't need it. This spread the risk to the healthiest part of the population and lowered risk for the insurance companies writing the policies. Benefit - Insurance Companies.

2. They did nothing to slowdown/stop the increasing cost of medical care by capping pharmaceutical costs (we pay some of the highest costs in the world); tort reform and limiting awards for pain and suffering (we have more lawyers than any other country); increase the number of health providers by addressing the obsolete licensing regulations, etc. Benefit - Pharmaceutical Companies, Insurance Companies, Existing Medical Providers, Etc.

3. They did absolutely nothing to remove the waste and fraud in the Medicare/Medicaid system. Benefit - Pharmaceutical Companies, Medical Providers and Medical Equipment Providers, Lawyers.

4. They exempted government officials from having to participate. Benefit - Damn politicians.

The only people missing in this wonderful "gift from the government" are the patients and the rest of us.

One side says they are going to fix it, I'd like to know how. The other side says they are going to repeal it, I'd like to know what we get in it's place. Both sides are beholden to lobbyists/campaign funding from the current beneficiaries and, sadly, the mainstream media types, and many, many others who benefit from the status quo, will never suggest radical changes to the current arrangements.......They just babble on with "elect me" and "buy me" BS advertising. We're basically screwed, until we start asking the "hard questions" and holding them responsible. Until then, we will still be viewed and treated as "sheeple" by the folks we elect.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Does your daughter work for you? If shes over 26 and not a legitemployee of your company you better be careful because that is no longer legal. Covered "employees" must be legit employees. Probably wouldn't have a problem until there was a large claim and the insurance company started sniffing around to find a way not to pay....


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

This is an issue for self-employed as well as small employers. We offered a health care plan to our employees for several years and the costs continued to grow and grow. We finally had to drop it as we didn't have enough participating employees (they had better plans available through their spouse's employer).

We then offered to contribute to an HSA. These funds were deposited and we non taxed, for us or the employee. The funds could be used towards premiums, OTC/Prescription meds....anything health care related. Then came O-Care

Now we could only offer the HSA in addition to a plan. If we continued to offer the HSA alone to our employees, we could have been fined $100/day PER employee. We were told to add it to their payroll. So, in order to keep wages separate from "benefit" we added a line to payroll that way "Benefit". We also increased the company contribution by 25% to cover the tax dollars...keeping the same $$$ in the employee's pocket. Somehow having the HSA was now bad, even though those $$$ could only be used toward health care related items...now we add $$$ to payroll, that they can buy smokes with.

The following year, it became illegal to have it as a separate line, so it got added into payroll, meaning that any OT hours were paid out 1.5 X on the "benefit" contribution. With the fines being increased for 2016, we have lost 2 employees this week to larger companies that offer health care.

I honestly believe that the government is going to try and get more and more people dependent on it one way or another. The largest segment of reported job growth is government jobs. I doubt anyone employed by or getting benefits from the government will ever vote for less government.

Thanks for reading my rant...off to find new employees.


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## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

I work for a government agency and happily vote for less government every time I get a chance. Not that I dislike my job I just think the government is getting too involved in people's lives and choices.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Dohrmann- I hear your pain. Its getting to one extreme or another. Go work for small business and pay out the nose for healthcare, or have none at all, or go work for the government where healthcare is almost free to employees and their family...


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

PaMike said:


> Does your daughter work for you? If shes over 26 and not a legitemployee of your company you better be careful because that is no longer legal. Covered "employees" must be legit employees. Probably wouldn't have a problem until there was a large claim and the insurance company started sniffing around to find a way not to pay....


She is a legal employee, just not very well paid by that company. My wife goes on Medicare later this year so I'm looking at changing around some legal structures next year to consolidate and lessen the complexity. I think I spend more time dealing with the government, lawyers, and insurance companies than I do with the businesses......


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Mike120 said:


> She is a legal employee, just not very well paid by that company. My wife goes on Medicare later this year so I'm looking at changing around some legal structures next year to consolidate and lessen the complexity. I think I spend more time dealing with the government, lawyers, and insurance companies than I do with the businesses......


Yup, I am THAT GUY in our business. Sad thing is employees don't realize how much work it is. They think old Mike doesn't do anything. They don't realize that I have health insurance, liability insurance, bankers, building lease and other admin things to do. Then heaven forbid someone gets hurt because then I will have 3 osha forms to fill out, workers comp to deal with, and the questions from employee to deal with..

My partner sends drawings out to the machine shop so the guys think he does all the work...


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

Mike120 said:


> She is a legal employee, just not very well paid by that company. My wife goes on Medicare later this year so I'm looking at changing around some legal structures next year to consolidate and lessen the complexity. I think I spend more time dealing with the government, lawyers, and insurance companies than I do with the businesses......


A couple years ago, we calculated the time that Amber (our "corporate secretary") spends on compliance related items - employee child support filings, tax filing/planing, insurance audits, bank/lending compliance, OSHA compliance...and the list goes on. For our company of 7 employees (counting myself and my wife) she spends about 25-30% of her full-time working hours on compliance issues. This only goes up if faced with an audit. 2 years ago, we had a MN sales tax audit, it took 3 of my days and 4 of Amber's. Just let us focus on making money and take more in taxes, enough with the compliance crap. Obama Care has just added compliance to all of our operations. Soon we will be working for the government, event though we are paid by private business. -Rant Over

-Dan


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I hear you. And really no matter how hard you try you still aren't compliant.

Ever have OSHA stop in? We have an awesome safety record, but OSHA happened to stop in one day for a random check up...drill press has a belt someone could stick their finger in etc etc....Said 6k in fines if you don't contest it. If you contest and lose the fines are 50% more... we just paid the fines.


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## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

OSHA is a racket. I understand wanting to keep safe working conditions but at some point common sense has got to step in. Don't stick your finger in a belt is a pretty simple thing to understand.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I did a pre tax last week with acc.to help determine end of yr purchases,etc.Holding my breath on the Sec 179 deduction which they keep f- ing with so its hard to tax plan.Tax lady threw different numbers in the computer to show me different scenarios and she pointed out another Obummer healthcare. tax of $5200 if I couldn't claim everything on the sec 179.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Growing pains said:


> OSHA is a racket. I understand wanting to keep safe working conditions but at some point common sense has got to step in. Don't stick your finger in a belt is a pretty simple thing to understand.


Yep, common sense has long been dead and buried.

really don't need OSHA or unions to keep worksites safe, the threat of getting sued should be enough with the glut of lawyers around


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

mlappin said:


> Yep, common sense has long been dead and buried.
> 
> really don't need OSHA or unions to keep worksites safe, the threat of getting sued should be enough with the glut of lawyers around


Yep! Sadly, common sense just ain't very common anymore.....


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I think most of us here (with a couple exceptions) know about what it takes to be a "boss", or "owner" of a business. Even if just a one man show. It takes a whole lot more work, time, effort, sweat, tears, and money than most think.

Here is the liberal take:


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