# NH Balewagon Repower



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

I recently purchased a well-used Super 1049 SN 4501 (must be a late one?) and plan to spend the winter bringing it back in shape. A friend has a '93 Dodge/Cummins with a rusted frame that I can get, so I was thinking of trying a repower. Due to the height of the 6BT, I guess I'd have to move it under the load rack like the newer ones instead of under the second table, which I'm sure would help with traction too. Will the Dodge A518 (I think) automatic hold up, or do I need an Allison? I will not be driving it on the roads much at all. Will the stock radiator be ok? I wonder if an electric fan would be easier to retrofit than the shaft-driven original fan. Should be a fun project if I can get it to work. Does anyone have any pointers to share? No other wagons around here that I know of to look at for ideas, so I'm flying blind.


----------



## KansAssfarmer (Jul 30, 2012)

Sounds like a heck of a retrofit job. Is the 361 in it junk? They are pretty solid motors with decent power. We have 2 s1049's. I always wanted to change out the stock fan for an electric fan. Just not sure how well one will hold up in all the dust. Id make sure all the linkages and table mounts are in decent shape. Nothing worse then having 3000 bales on ground, rain comin, and something breaks. Look forward to seeing your progress.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If the transmission is junk now, its not going to get any better. Around here the cheapest source of cummins with a matching allison is old school buses. They cost about 1200$ complete, junk out the body, the frame and axles usually fetch 400-500$. Downside, they never have AC compressors on them here if you need AC.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry to drift off topic, but were the bale wagons ever ofered with a diesel engine? If so, what one? 3208? Thanks.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm not really sure how good the 361 is, as I haven't really run it much at all yet. The transmission looks like a rebuild (has a plate on it I think) but the PO said it did jam in two gears once. Maybe it would be too ambitious of a project, but it would be nice once it was done. I figured getting the weight back would help me too, as I tend to be on the wet side here. I have a lighter 1047 I use now, and even with r4 tires I still got it stuck once this year. Also have a 1033 as a backup for wetter areas.

As far as I know, the Dodge tranny is fine - has 120k miles or so on the truck. I can get the Dodge for $2k and probably get $500 at least for what is left after I remove what I need. Not sure if a school bus would be that cheap?

The 1049 only came with the 361. The 1069 had either a Ford 460 gas or a Perkins 354 diesel. In later models, they switched to a Ford 401 diesel and then Fiat/Iveco engines.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Wonder if you could get the 401 Ford diesel out of something else for cheap? They build a gazillion of them. That'll get you weight and prolly drop right in?


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

Even the 401 wouldn't be a drop-in. The 1048/1049 was the only wagon to have the engine under the second table instead of the load rack. I don't think there is height enough to put an inline engine under the second table unless it was tilted. No matter what I use, I need to make new mounts. Maybe a 6.9/7.3 out of a ford pickup would fit where the 361 is now - not sure - but I'd rather have the 6BT and also get the weight towards the back wheels.


----------



## hay hauler (Feb 6, 2010)

_How ya going to mount the hydro pump?_

_Would think the radiator is big enought if it is in good shape..._

_Pluss powering the brakes? stock vacume pump on the diesel i would suppose..._

_Always wondered about doin the same thing to mine...._

_



__(not me)_


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Just because it's an inline 6, don't mean you can't lay it over, in fact, you could lay it almost on it's side. The only modification would be the oil pickup tube would have to be located where it won't be starved for oil and drainback from the overhead might have to be modified slightly to allow for the oil to drain back to the sump... which is why I say 'almost'. The oil still has to get to the sump via gravity, it's not a dry sump engine. Injection wise, the engine willo run fine. Fuel filter(s) will have to be remounted vertically. Thats about it. Other than the turbo dtain will have to be moved so the oil will drain from the bearings on the turbo into the sump.

I'd loose the stock (I assume 727 Torqueflite) trans and go with an Allison. The Mopar tranny's won't take the torque the engine makes and getting rid of residual heat was always an issue. There are many aftermarket adapter plates (allison to cummins-dodge) available.

Ae electric pusher or puller fan is a no brainer install. the motors on the electric fans are sealed, permanent magnet type so dirt in the bearings is a non issue and you can set them up to reverse, much like the Eueopeans so with their reversable cooling fans, to move the dust and chaff out of the radiator.

I refit all my tractors with electric fans and machine blanker plates and remove the power hungry mechainical fan. been doing that for years now.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

Hay hauler,
I had found that video of the 1048 conversion, and that is what got me thinking about the 6BT. I'm pretty sure the engine has a vacuum pump for that year, so that could be used for the power brakes. Hadn't thought much about the hydraulic pump, but in the video it looks like he moved it back and coupled it to the front of the crankshaft. I wish there was a way to get in touch with him. I also hope my 1049 looks as good as yours some day!

ARD,
I'm concerend that the engine would have to lay over quite a bit. You can see in the video Hay hauler posted that the 6BT just clears the load rack, and the second table is a lot lower. Once I get the 1049 home (having a hard time finding someone to truck it) I can take some measurements and see if it would work canted over. I was hoping I could use the A518/727 auto, but you are probably correct that the Allison would be the better choice. I could also find an Allison with a parking brake and save some work there. Good to hear that the elctric fan will work just fine.

I was wondering if a Ford 6.9/7.3 would fit in place of the 361 and save me a lot of fabricating, but I imagine the C6 would have the same issues as the 727 and I'd have an even heavier engine over the front wheels.

Appreciate all the comments!


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

lfc said:


> Hay hauler,
> I had found that video of the 1048 conversion, and that is what got me thinking about the 6BT. I'm pretty sure the engine has a vacuum pump for that year, so that could be used for the power brakes. Hadn't thought much about the hydraulic pump, but in the video it looks like he moved it back and coupled it to the front of the crankshaft. I wish there was a way to get in touch with him. I also hope my 1049 looks as good as yours some day!
> 
> ARD,
> ...


The 6.9/7.3 should take up nearly an identical space as the 361 since they're V-8's. I owned a few of these trucks back in the late 80's-early 90's and I'm pretty sure they had c-6's behind them before the E4OD came out. Might be able to find a early 6.9/7.3 with a C-6 out of an old F250/350.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

.............*I could also find an Allison with a parking brake and save some work there*.............

Typically, Allisons utilize a band type parking brake arrangement that clamps mechanically around a drum on the output shaft or uses an internal expanding brake shoe/drum arrangement. I don't believe they are available with an integral parking sprague in the transmission case, or at least I've never see one.

The extrenal mechanical park brake should be a fairly easy adaptation. Just remember not to use a disc brake unless it's totally mechanical. Discs won't stay clamped because the fluid bleeds off after time.

Actually, you can get adapter plates to mount an Allison to any brand diesel engine. I'd go Allison no matter what. The are bulletproof and don't suffer from the ills that the auromotive transmissions do.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

That is true. I have an Ally in one of my trucks and love it.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

Yep, you've got me convinced - go with the Allison and leave the Dodge alone. I've looked around a little and it looks like you can get them cheap - the 6BT bellhousing might be close to as much as the transmission. When I said it would be easiler to have a parking brake with the Alllsion, I meant I could find one off a truck with hydraulic brakes that had an external drum-style brake on the output shaft. You are right, I don't think they ever offered a 545 with Park.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

should be able to hook up an ally to a 7.3L too,
IH built a lot of medium duty trucks with 444's and allisons
wonder if you could get complete drivetrain from ih school bus or a medium duty wreck with a good engine/trans?


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

The best thing about an Allison is it takes good old Dexron-Mercon 4 instead of the 11 bucks a quart synthetic crap. I buy it in 5 gallon pails. My bobcat uses Dexron.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

Our town had some early 80's IH school buses and I think there is one at the local scrap yard, but they had the 9.0 liter w/Allison. I'd like to stick with the engine out of my friend's truck if I go this route, as it only has 120k miles on it and I know it has been well maintained as long as he has owned it. It could use the killer dowel pin tab as a precaution, but other than that is a good engine.
I was looking online, and I see rebuild kits for the AT545 for a few hundred dollars. If they are any good, it might be worth trying one out.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

The IH 9L diesel always amazed me.....so many cubes, but not much HP.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> The IH 9L diesel always amazed me.....so many cubes, but not much HP.


Yeah, but some DT466's are only putting out 210hp, all depends on the smoke screw. Our MF 8560 rotary has a 5.9 and they were only rated at 190hp. My 99 Dodge Cummins was only rated at 210hp from the factory, haven't quite doubled that number _yet_. Eventually won't be exactly triple the original number but 600hp would be cool for sh*ts and giggles.

Seen one during a drive in dyno day on you tube, 1149hp and he drove it there. Couldn't find it though, so here's another:


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Yeah, but some DT466's are only putting out 210hp, all depends on the smoke screw. My 99 Dodge Cummins was only rated at 210hp from the factory, haven't quite doubled that number _yet_. Eventually won't be exactly triple the original number but 600hp would be cool for sh*ts and giggles.
> 
> Seen one during a drive in dyno day on you tube, 1149hp and he drove it there. Couldn't find it though, so here's another:


What I should have said is the 9L was never a diesel that got turned up much. everyone I know that tried to turn a 9L either lifted a head, lost a gasket or spun a bearing. You mention the DT466 and 5.9L Cummins. Now those can be turned up for some serious power......


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Problem I see with using the transmission in the truck, they are controlled by the PCM, now whether or not you could reuse the module and fool it into thinking it's still installed in the truck would be tricky at best. At the very least you would need a speed input, once they started adding all the electronic crap to auto transmissions is when I quit rebuilding them, so it's anybody's guess.

Another potential problem with the 99 model your using is the VP44 Bosch injection pump, electronic so you'll also have to keep the ECM on the engine. If it was me, I'd look for a pump for an older model truck that is strictly mechanical with the electric solenoid for fuel shutoff. With either pump get yourself a low fuel pressure alarm kit with either injection pump they won't live long if your charge pump goes out and your fuel pressure drops below 5psi. That's where I'm at right now on my truck, have to upgrade fuel supply system before I can go for anymore horsies as now if I get hooked up good and stand on it, only have 3-4psi at the injection pump about the time I hit 35lbs of boost.

The Dodge transmission should hold up as long as keep you it cool, make sure you have a very good tranny cooler in front of the radiator plus the engine mounted one. Also install a temp gauge in the line sending the oil from the transmission to the cooler. The stock tranny temp sensor is in a bad spot as well as the one Edge provides with their chips. Neither one gives you a true reading of oil temp. One is a case reading and the other taps into a blind passage, both really only read the overall temp of the transmission housing, by time you get the housing hot enough to worry about, you've already cooked the fluid or caused other internal damage. The sensor in the oil line will give you practically instantaneous readings of whats really happening. On my Dodge just locking the TQ up will cause a almost ten degree drop in oil temp in city driving. When towing locking the TQ up drops it dramatically within seconds


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> What I should have said is the 9L was never a diesel that got turned up much. everyone I know that tried to turn a 9L either lifted a head, lost a gasket or spun a bearing. You mention the DT466 and 5.9L Cummins. Now those can be turned up for some serious power......


That's where I'm at atm, I could go another hundred horse maybe, but for reliability I need to have the head o-ringed and go with some ARP head studs and loose the bolts. Definitely have to do that before a bigger turbo goes on.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> The best thing about an Allison is it takes good old Dexron-Mercon 4 instead of the 11 bucks a quart synthetic crap. I buy it in 5 gallon pails. My bobcat uses Dexron.


So does the Dodge, or you can use Dexron III and add a friction modifier.


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

mlappin,
The donor Dodge pickup is a '93, so nothing is electronic.

You think then that the 727/A518 will hold up? That would save me a lot of time and expense if I didn't need to find an Allison and the other parts. I would need the parking brake, but I'm sure I could rig up something from a old tansmission to mount on the back of the A518.

I know the '93 has a transmission cooler up under the bed - noit sure if there is another one in the radiator.

As I said earlier, this machine will hardly ever see the road, and five or six loads a day will be its biggest workout so the heat may not be much of a problem. Good idea to go with the trans temp guage.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

My apologies, could have sworn it was a 99'.

I wouldn't say nothing, I think we had a really early model, a 92 I think, still had a brain box, when it started to go out, alternator acted up, preheater sometimes worked even while driving, speedo quit and wouldn't go into OD.

I think as long as it's a hundred percent to start with it should be fine. If you have any teenage sons or help, don't let em drive it.

Most guys tear em up from either over revving the engine in a hard pull then it shifts and the clutches slip. Or they rely on the stock idiot light to warn em of high temp conditions in the tranny. You could take it to a tranny shop and have em check it out before you install it. A real competent transmission man with Mopar experience should be able to increase the durability of it in a tow situation at a quite reasonable price.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

A little heads up on all Mopar slush boxes....

I have a very good friend who owns a transmission shop and he told me that the number one death for a Mopar transmission is too much fluid pressure. It ruptures the pot metal (pressure die cast) case and the transmission at that point is junk.

IMO, Mopar is mostly junk from the get go.









Just get an Allison and smile....


----------



## lfc (Jun 23, 2010)

The only Mopar automatic I've ever owned was in a Dodge Caravan. That was supposed to be a weak link on that vehicle, but it was still going strong at 180k. So, do I try and extend my luck with the A518 or assume I already used up my Mopar good luck card and look for an Allison?

If I go through with this conversion, I may try the A518 first since it is basically "free" with the engine and see how it works. If it eventually blows, then I can go for the Allison.

Thanks again everyone for your help.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

lfc said:


> The only Mopar automatic I've ever owned was in a Dodge Caravan. That was supposed to be a weak link on that vehicle, but it was still going strong at 180k. * So, do I try and extend my luck with the A518 or assume I already used up my Mopar good luck card and look for an Allison?*
> 
> If I go through with this conversion, I may try the A518 first since it is basically "free" with the engine and see how it works. If it eventually blows, then I can go for the Allison.
> 
> Thanks again everyone for your help.


That's like trying to compare a pice of pine to a piece of oak. One is much tougher than the other. The allison that's in my GMC is 99% comparable to the allison in a 26K medium duty dumptruck.
You'll never see a A518 in a medium duty dumptruck, but I don't blame you for trying it. If you go that way, I'd get the best, cleanest ATF and the biggest trans fluid cooler you can find.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> A little heads up on all Mopar slush boxes....
> 
> I have a very good friend who owns a transmission shop and he told me that the number one death for a Mopar transmission is too much fluid pressure. It ruptures the pot metal (pressure die cast) case and the transmission at that point is junk.
> 
> ...


Yup, junk all the way, that's why my Father has 600K in his 99 Dodge. Original diff, original engine, and one bearing replaced in the output shaft of the tranny.

Have a speed shop in Gas City that will quarantee one of their A518's up to a 1000hp.

Use the 'free' one since you have it already and see what happens.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sorry if I touched a nerve. No offense intended!
I mean stock transmissions. I've had a few automatics built for high HP applications and even the shops tell me Allison is the best light/med truck transmisssion on the market.
It's not too difficult to take a 518, 4R100, 4L80E or Allison, stick a billet TC and stronger internals and create a monster box.


----------

