# Spreading compost on fields questions



## JD3430

I have wanted to try this for years. I found a local compost source that will deliver as much as I want for a very minimal cost. I can rent a twin vertical beater litter spreader for $800/week. 
Should be able to do 100 acres in a week, but not 100% sure. 
Couple thing I'm puzzled about: 
1.Most guys wait till ground is frozen to do this, but if ground is frozen, I would think my delivered piles would also be frozen- although the piles will stay pretty warm inside, outer crust of pile will probably freeze.

2. Also, I simply fertilized with chemical NPK in the past. I read the typical nutrient content for mushroom compost at 1" thick:
N: 1.12%, 6.4 lbs/yd, 832lbs/ acre
P: .67%, 3.8lbs/yd, 494lbs/acre
K: 1.24%, 7.1lbs/yd, 923lbs/acre
Organic matter: 25.53%, 147lbs/yd, 19,100lbs/acre

Obviously, if I do 2" thick, it will double the lbs/acre.

I know each field is different, but according to my tests last year, my fields were in decent shape on N, but a little low on P&K.
Do the numbers I listed above seem too low? Or not worth spreading mushroom compost?

I would probably pay ~ $10,000 to have my fields treated by a custom NPK spreader. 
I can do all my fields with compost for ~$1,500, about 1/8 of the price of "chemical" fertilizer. ($800 spreader, $300 compost, $400 fuel & misc.) huge $ savings, but is it worth the trouble? My fields really look like they'd benefit from an infusion of compost. I was thinking it might move eathworms up to soil surface, too. Thought I could also broadcast some Orchard/Tim mix seed before I apply compost over top of seed. 
I know its a lot of questions....

Thoughts?


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## swmnhay

Sure would be easier using tonnage then yds to figure things.1" deep on a acre is a lot of product.Closest I can figure you will apply 75,000 lbs per acre.

75,000 x 1.12% N = 840# of N

Something is not right!!You will be putting way to much on of NP&K using these numbers.I'd say put on enough to give you 200 lbs of N at most.Putting on that much 840 lbs of N would be illegal if you had a manure management plan.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

I agree with Cy. Something is wrong. I typically put on 2 tons per acre chicken but dont know a thing about mushroom other than I like to eat them. I would think that the litter would not freeze. Cy, where did the 75,000 come from? I'm confused. Mike


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## 8350HiTech

JD's math is right. A little over 19000 pounds per acre at one inch thick. Two inches is ~39,500. Of course, that's 274 cubic yards per acre. That'll keep somebody busy for a little while.


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## JD3430

I know what's wrong, I forgot to mention its CUBIC yards? Does that make more sense?


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## swmnhay

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> I agree with Cy. Something is wrong. I typically put on 2 tons per acre chicken but dont know a thing about mushroom other than I like to eat them. I would think that the litter would not freeze. Cy, where did the 75,000 come from? I'm confused. Mike


Using JD's numbers of 25% organic matter = 19,100 lbs.So a 100% of the actual product would weigh 75,000 lbs.Thats the way I read it anyway.

"Organic matter: 25.53%, 147lbs/yd, 19,100lbs/acre"


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## JD3430

I'm thinking its like a fine dirt, almost like a topsoil.

At 1" deep they say I will average about 100 cubic yards per acre.


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## swmnhay

The way I read you get 147 lbs of organic matter per cubic yard.But a cubic yard would weigh just shy of 600 lbs.


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## JD3430

swmnhay said:


> The way I read you get 147 lbs of organic matter per cubic yard.But a cubic yard would weigh just shy of 600 lbs.


You're very close. 575lbs/cubic yard.


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## JD3430

So getting back to the questions: 
Do the NPK numbers look good for 1" of compost? 
Seems like a HECK of a lot cheaper than paying a local Grow Mark to spread Pelletier NPK and it gets organic compost on the fields. 
I want to do this 3rd week of January.


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## swmnhay

N: 1.12%, 6.4 lbs/yd, 832lbs/ acre
P: .67%, 3.8lbs/yd, 494lbs/acre
K: 1.24%, 7.1lbs/yd, 923lbs/acre

NPK of 832-494-923 is way to much,you would burn it.

I just put on 240-100-100 or there abouts of cattle manure to grow 200+ bu corn for a comparison.

Not sure how the heck they are figuring it.Manure we use tons per acre not cubic yards.Must be a eastern thing??LOL.


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## 8350HiTech

You use cubic yards because it eliminates having to calculate moisture content. It should be easier than tons.

JD, the nitrogen in the compost is going to be slower to release than what you are used to with chemical fertilizer. I think I'd use some of both rather than trying to make the switch cold turkey.

Also, the numbers shown are for 130 cubic yards per acre, which is what an exact inch coverage would leave you. (43560/12/27) I'm guessing they say you'll average 100 yards per inch coverage because of erring on the light side?


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## JD3430

The range they have was 65-130, so I thought 100 was a good average.
Here's the thing: all the BTOs in my area use the stuff on hay and corn fields like crazy. I tend to observe and copy (to an extent) what they do. When in Rome.....
The biggest thing is cost savings. If I can save 7-9k, that's a lot of jingle.

swmhay, 
I know those numbers do seem high. It's hard to believe an inch of mushroom compost would burn grass though. Heck, we used to put it down on top of bare ground and grow grass in it. Lol


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## swmnhay

It sounds good to me just don't quite understand the analysis.Seems to me you could get but with about 1/3 of it,spread over more acres.


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## deadmoose

Try a few different rates? Some @ 1, some @ 1/2 maybe some in between? Sounds like it could be a good deal.


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## slowzuki

I don't think the fertilizer is readily available the first year like chemical fertilizer. Its more or less composted low grade hay if I understand correctly. Good topsoil tests out high for NPK too but you won't burn a field topdressing with it.

If the price is right and you aren't smothering your grass it sounds good for me.


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## Bgriffin856

Well we don't test our manure and I'll say this and I may take some pictures to show you. Had a field we spread some half composted heifer manure on some of the field and dairy manure on the rest this past fall. Where the dairy manure is the grass is a deep dark green as for where the heifer manure is, not so green and I applied it as heavy as I could. When I get done I usually am afraid I'll smother the grass out but it always grows great.

Any organic matter you can get is going to make a big difference I wouldn't worry about application rate much though in January you may still get some leaching of nutrients due to snow and rain before the grass is growing and able to take them in. I have found the best time to spread is in the spring when the grass is greening up and in the fall before everything goes dormant. Fall seems to be the best actually. Grass usually is able to take in and retain nutrients before it goes dormant and gives it a jump start in spring. Summer isn't bad either just got to plan it so its rotted down before the next cutting is ready


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> I don't think the fertilizer is readily available the first year like chemical fertilizer. Its more or less composted low grade hay if I understand correctly. Good topsoil tests out high for NPK too but you won't burn a field topdressing with it.
> 
> If the price is right and you aren't smothering your grass it sounds good for me.


There's also horse, chicken litter, and peat moss in it. 
The mushroom company takes older hay (it sits for a year after hay farmer drops it off). To the hay, they add used horse bedding, chicken/turkey litter, water and peat moss. They make a slurry out of it that smells unbelievably bad and grow mushrooms in it. Then they steam it to kill pests and pathogens. 
It holds water extremely well.


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## slowzuki

So basically it has a lot of carbon (wood shavings / sawdust / peat) in it that ties up nitrogen and buffers the fertilizer value. As long as it has enough actual manure in it to not to rob nitrogen from your field for the decomposition of the wood I'd say its a good deal.

Too much much wood messes up the C-N ratio.



JD3430 said:


> There's also horse, chicken litter, and peat moss in it.
> The mushroom company takes older hay (it sits for a year after hay farmer drops it off). To the hay, they add used horse bedding, chicken/turkey litter, water and peat moss. They make a slurry out of it that smells unbelievably bad and grow mushrooms in it. Then they steam it to kill pests and pathogens.
> It holds water extremely well.


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## JD3430

I haven't seen where any sawdust or wood is added.


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## 8350HiTech

JD3430 said:


> I haven't seen where any sawdust or wood is added.


But doesn't either or both of the horse manure or chicken litter have shavings in it?


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## JD3430

Most people around here use straw for bedding, but I guess there's some who use wood shavings. 
Don't know anything about poultry litter other than it smells terrible. Lol
I like that if there was sawdust, it deteriorates pretty fast and holds a heck of a lot of water.


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## 8350HiTech

All of the big horse manure removal services that advertise in the Lancaster Farming say NO straw. Pretty sure they're hauling that to the mushroom farms. Anyway, you need a certain amount of carbon source for appropriate composting. Like 'zuki said, just not too much. And you should t have to worry about having too much.


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## JD3430

They definitely use straw down here. In fact, lower quality straw is widely accepted at the mushroom compost plants I sell to. 
Either way, if it has sawdust in it, it doesn't bother me in the least. Stuff looks like fluffy black dirt to me. 
Grows grass like gangbusters.


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## PaMike

It is good stuff but I don't think you are going to be able to put enough on to get the nitrogen you will want. Maybe still top dress with N. If you could find a source for chicken manure that will give you the N you want.


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## JD3430

Getting mushroom compost? no problem.
Finding a spreader to rent? problem!

I called around to rent a spreader, looks like all the spreaders require a 150HP tractor or larger. I can see why, but you'd think someone would have a smaller unit. Local big dealer has 5 smaller used ones for sale, won't rent them though.


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## slowzuki

What do they use, vertical end beater style?


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## JD3430

Yup


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## Hugh

I would be VERY careful about using this stuff on 100 acres without first testing it. It is well known that some herbicides can pass through horses and cows unchanged, that is, without affecting the chemical composition of the herbicide. I used some horse manure on an apple orchard about three years ago. The trees I used it on died, and there has been very little weeds or grass to grow in the area. I traced the problem back to Tordon in the manure. About 30 years ago the Los Angeles Arboratum used some aged horse manure on their grounds and killed a huge amount of trees. No question in my mind that I would test a cubic yard of this stuff in a small area and check the results for a year before I used it in mass.


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## 8350HiTech

Hugh said:


> I would be VERY careful about using this stuff on 100 acres without first testing it. It is well known that some herbicides can pass through horses and cows unchanged, that is, without affecting the chemical composition of the herbicide. I used some horse manure on an apple orchard about three years ago. The trees I used it on died, and there has been very little weeds or grass to grow in the area. I traced the problem back to Tordon in the manure. About 30 years ago the Los Angeles Arboratum used some aged horse manure on their grounds and killed a huge amount of trees. No question in my mind that I would test a cubic yard of this stuff in a small area and check the results for a year before I used it in mass.


Farmers all across southeastern PA have been testing it for him for years.

JD, I'd do a little checking on what size tractors guys are using with that spreader. I know of a couple local rentals that "require 150 hp" too, yet when I asked whether they thought my 140 hp tractor would run it, their response was that's actually above average for what's usually hooked to the spreader.


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## PaCustomBaler

I'd check your soil tests first before putting on those big rates. Purpose of mushroom soil isn't to add large amounts of NPK like in the earlier posts, but to add porosity to your soil and make it lighter, slightly increasing CEC. If applied at those big rates, you'll smother out plants in your hay field, and have high ash % in your hay tests.

As for what HUGH is saying, it sounds like the manure was a product of someone feeding hay that was sprayed with a herbicide like Forefront, Cimarron, Milestone, etc. that have heavy residues. Since the residue is so heavy, the herbicide will carry right through any species of animal and if manure is applied to a broadleaf crop, expect a dead crop (or lack of germination if applied prior to planting).

We sell mulch hay to mushroom houses and they have recipes for making the compost. It'll be a varying combination of hay, straw, horse manure and other odds and ends. A big point for making the compost is to have plant material with large stalks that can retain water, such as Timothy, OG, Brome, straws. No wood products. They will wet the piles down outside for the plant material to absorb the water to grow mushrooms, but once the compost goes into the house it doesn't get watered. The mushroom growers like to cry "bloody murder" if you bring a load of that fine-grass hay, or alfalfa/clovers because the sh** just turns to mush and has to long-term moisture-retention. In years past, every mushroom house made their own compost. Nowadays, only a few companies make the compost and each buyer will give them their "recipe" to be made.

JD, I'd be looking for a litter spreader like a Lanco or Stoltzfus to use rather than a vertical beater spreader. The mushroom soil is fairly light and fluffy, and doesn't have enough weight and mass to make a nice spread pattern...you'll only get a narrow swath right behind the spreader because those beaters have nothing to grab onto. Treat that mushroom compost like poultry litter and use a spinner spreader, you'll get a more consistent application and more uniform pattern. I'm not sure where you're located at in SE PA, but I'd checkout dealers like Atlantic tractor or Midatlantic agrisystems, or Ceder Crest equipment for rental spreaders.

Good luck, enjoy a nice week of weather. Plan on spreading lime tomorrow and Friday.


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## JD3430

speaking of lime......
I hear mushroom soil almost eliminates the necessity for lime, too!
I am looking at a Meyer 3245 twin vertical beater spreader..


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## deadmoose

Suggested hp has more to do with the load and stopping it then running it doesn't it? Your 126 will be fine. Maybe not 100% heaped loads though.


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## PaMike

PAcustombaler is right. Go liter/lime spreader route. I think cedar crest equipment rents them and they have a location in quarryville pa. There is a guy in denver pa that rents a 20ft litter spreader. Thats probably 1.5 hours from you.


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## JD3430

Tried cedar crest. His is 1000PTO and 150HP


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## endrow

No nothing about mushroom soil,, but there are 2 BTO,s not far from me between grass hay and straw they each haul about 4 loads a week 52 weeks a year to Avondale for mulch hay they each farm a couple of 1000 acres neither of them ever hauled a drop of mushroom soil home for there fields, . I agree with others make sure it is good for grass


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## 8350HiTech

endrow said:


> No nothing about mushroom soil,, but there are 2 BTO,s not far from me between grass hay and straw they each haul about 4 loads a week 52 weeks a year to Avondale for mulch hay they each farm a couple of 1000 acres neither of them ever hauled a drop of mushroom soil home for there fields, . I agree with others make sure it is good for grass


Maybe they would if they could back haul it. I doubt they are hauling their bales in walking floors just so they could back haul a product that is inferior to chicken manure, which Kreider's will essentially deliver to your area for free just to get rid of it. 
Our local mulch BTO (~4000 acres) does get some of it, but only because they retail it by the scoop. It's not worth trucking a product that on an ag scale requires 100 cubic yards per acre.


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## PaMike

I gotta pay Kreiders $12/ a ton and I am only about 6 miles away. What are you guys paying Kreiders?


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## 8350HiTech

PaMike said:


> I gotta pay Kreiders $12/ a ton and I am only about 6 miles away. What are you guys paying Kreiders?


I should have been clearer. For what they're charging for delivered litter, the delivery is essentially free.


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## PaCustomBaler

We haul 4x4's in walking floors down to Avondale if there is someone looking for mushroom soil back home. We don't use the stuff on our fields, not worth it for the pain it is. Like anything else, it all depends on what's right for your situation.


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## PaMike

I talked to the kreiders driver one time and I was amazed at how far they truck the stuff. Its nothing for them to haul the stuff 2 hours away.

I looked a mushroom soil but not enough N in it for the hassle.

My buddy's brother lives up near the Reading mushroom houses. He made a spot where the truckers can haul soil in no matter the weather conditions. They bring it to him FREE when the weather isn't fit to go elsewhere. He then uses a tracked loader to push it in a HUGE pile. He fixed up a big old manure spreader and he will spread that stuff on his corn ground. Its amazing how much of it he goes through in a years time...


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## JD3430

The shroom growers down here are watched like a hawk by the EPA. They cannot amass large piles of mushroom compost or they can contaminate streams with nitrogen. 
Makes me worry about some of my fields that flood. Spread shroom soil and then have a massive downpour and it all goes in the Brandywine river.


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## Bgriffin856

This may be handy JD

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=554281&mode=2


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## endrow

A nutrient management plan would be a starter


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## Bonfire

JD3430 said:


> The shroom growers down here are watched like a hawk by the EPA. They cannot amass large piles of mushroom compost or they can contaminate streams with nitrogen.
> Makes me worry about some of my fields that flood. Spread shroom soil and then have a massive downpour and it all goes in the Brandywine river.


Phosphorus in combination with the N is what casues algae blooms. N by its self in a body of water won't do much. Throw in some P and pow.

I agree, you don't want to go through the expense of spreading this compost to be potentially washed away. A NMP would address your low lying areas/buffers around creeks and streams.


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## JD3430

Yeah I've read enough to scare the crap out of me. And when it floods here, its usually the result of a massive snow melt-off with rain. 
My concern is I spread compost, it snows 18", then it rains and temps go up to 55. 
Then all the shroom soil ends up in our local river.
Having my name on the front page of the local paper for fish kill isn't the kind of publicity I'm looking for. 
I only have one flood plain field and of course, its my biggest producer.

Maybe I compost all fields and just do NPK on the flood plain field.


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