# What equipment would I need for 80 acres of hay?



## SvdSinner

I'm an acreage owner that is thinking about renting a nearby field and producing hay. (Background: I've got no real farming experience, so I don't know much about equipment. I moved from the city 5+ years ago, and have accumulated a handful of cows and ponies, and have really enjoyed it. I currently only have <3 acres of pasture, so I haven't been able to financially justify any large equipment (tractors, etc.) but am interested in trying. I do have a local farmer who says he'll help me my first year or two.)

My initial plan is to keep costs down until I can learn enough to make the field either profitable or break-even. (I've got a regular job for regular income and don't depend on farm income.) What I'd like to do is start with used equipment for the first few years so that I will have some experience before I pay good money on newer equipment. Also, it will give me an opportunity to make my newbie mistakes on lower budget stuff rather than making more expensive mistakes with more expensive equipment. My time is also valuable, so I need something that I could make each field pass in 4-5 hour chunks, and I don't have time for maintenance-queen equipment. (Weekdays: get home from regular job, farm until 10ish plus weekends.)

So, I'd love to know what you guys would think might be a good, rough budget for the cheapest used equipment that could reliably grow hay on 80 acres. (Notes: Field is basically flat, but lies at the bottom of a hill, and all hay would have to come up the hill after being baled. The current field has been unworked for 5-7 years. Has native grasses, but numerous scrub trees are starting to shoot up. Field rental is contingent on using only low-impact farming methods as it is a wellhead protection area. Tilling it up and starting fresh would probably not be allowed.)

My guess is something like:
1) Tractor, 60ish HP? (Just guessing on HP requirement. If I need something bigger, please let me know.) Loader w/bale spear & 3pt w/ spear Any other things it has to have for making hay?
2) Mower/Conditioner? (What do I look for? What size?)
3) Rake (What do I look for?)
4) Baler (Assuming a large round baler is most economical. I don't have time or warehouse space to deal with small squares.)
5) Something for hay hauling. (Do I need a 3/4 ton truck, or can I rent semis? Do I rely on customers who come get it themselves? No idea how I should get hundreds of large bales out of the field over the course of the season.)

6) Other stuff I'd need? (I can use advice on renting (custom farming) vs buying on some of the stuff like seed drills, etc.)

7) Any hints on clearing out scrub trees, etc. would be a bonus.

BTW, I need two types of advise: 1) Minimum equipment I could get by with for 2-3 years, and 2) Go forward equipment if things go well and I repurchase newer/nicer stuff in 2-3 years.


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## grouchy

You won't like this answer. You will be way better ahead to buy hay. To start from scratch even with used equipment that needs work and only marginally reliable would be very costly. Starting with an established hay field would be a little better, but to get a field established adds to the challenge. It will need to have the overgrowth removed, limed, seeded, and fertiliized and a plan for weed control. Before I invested any money, I would find a local farmer and work for him for a while to get experience, see if you like it, and get a feel for equipment you will need and also to get to know local people in the business.
Grouchy


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## hay hauler

You might be able to by into you friends equipment depending on how good of a fiend the farmer is? The only reason I would do it is if you enjoy it and need something to get your mind off of your daily job. What you are talking about more than likely would not be cheaper than buying hay and it is on your shoulders to get it up right. If you think you can afford it and would enjoy it then go for it. If it is simply to save money walk away&#8230;.

Also if you are doing this for fun get nice equipment, there is no point in stressing over bad equipment.

Tractor with cab I would say 80hp. JD resells good&#8230;

Disk mower conditioner if you can afford it&#8230;

Get a nice bailer, no junk!

Basket rake if you can afford it (Fluffs the hay)

A ¾ ton truck and gooseneck trailer is always useful&#8230;

You might be able to have the field planted for hire?


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## CATTLEMAN

My scenario is somewhat similar to yours; but I have been on a farm most of my 64 years. I work full time off the farm (trailer salesman); but my wife and I successfully run about 120 acre hay operation part time. We also have a herd of SIM ANGUS cattle that we feed out lower end hay to.
We buy all used equipment, but do our research; and try to buy very clean and well maintained equipment. Our tractor fleet is "ancient" by most standards; but we beleive in putting the money in the actual hay equipment. It only takes so much horsepower and a good PTO to run hay equipment. We use a small 4x5 round baler with net wrap (NH model 644 cost $11,500 several years ago), and a Case IH model 8545 small square baler; cost of $5800. We use seven cage wagons for small square bales with an average cost of about $1200 per wagon. Our cutter is a NH 1411 discbine that had seen a very limited acreage; in which we paid $12,000 for. We use a 10 wheel rake that we bought new for $4500. We also have 2 - 24 foot gooseneck trailers that I bought used for about $2,000 a piece. We have one tractor mounted loader with a bale spike on it, and a 60 hp Gehl skidloader with bale forks. We also own a 10' Great Plains drill used for overseeding older hay fields.
My wife does all of the cutting and raking and moving the round bales off the field to storage. I do all the baling of both squares and rounds ( she draws the line at running a baler). 
My time is limited; but we both can usually coodinate our schedules so that we can get top quality hay put on time. Our customer base is mostly horse owners, and they buy both rounds and small squares from us. I hope to slow down on my full time job within the next year; and we have plans to ditch the cage wagons, and go to an accumulater system than (Koyker bale Caddie). We enjoy the hay business; but I had also had pretty much a lifetime of experience with hay before we got into it. Please feel free to e-mail me with any questions you might have.


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## MorningstarAcres

Here's a little experienced advice from a newbie farmer...

If you're going to buy cheaper used equipment, make sure you know how to fix it. Murphy's law dictates that it will break down, right in the middle of cutting or baling the field, on a day when your local farm equipment repair shop is closed.

Always have a backup plan in place, especially for baling. A second baler, or a friend/farmer you can hire to come and bale for you if and when your baler breaks in the middle of a field, on a day when the hay HAS to come in because if it doesn't, the rain will destroy it or it'll dry to nothingness.

Don't ever count on anyone to come and pick up hay when they say they will. Customers are increasingly unreliable, and will change their minds about their hay orders at the last second, because some Joe Schmoe down the road is willing to sell them bales at 0.25/small square cheaper.

Plan on being stressed. A LOT. Especially if you're selling to horse owners, as they can be exceptionally anal about hay quality.

Sorry, not to be a downer, but it isn't as easy as it looks. The only people who aren't ready to commit hairy-karey during hay season are the guys with the expensive equipment, and years of experience.


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## hay hauler

Like said before, bee careful in relying on others to get "their" hay out of the field or make sure you are pained in advance for it! To often do we watch some one loose their hay because some buyer will pick it out of the field so the owner doesn't need me to stack it. Saves the owner money right? Most of the time it rains on half of the hay in the field, the own doesn't sleep that night, and the customer backs out on the rained on hay the said they wanted = the owner loosing money in the long run&#8230;.

If you do hay I would highly recommend getting it off the field yourself or have some way to get if off with in 24 hr of it being bailed. Then charge the cost to take it off the field to the customer. If you have storage most often it will be worth a lot more in the winter anyways...

One way to back up your bailer is to just start off with a near new one&#8230; I know some like to have a back up one and this does work. But a second idea is the price of two good bailers most often you can have one really nice one&#8230; Your back up bailer is only useful if it works well and is maintained as well&#8230;.

There is a thousand ways to do this, if you have the patients for it you will learn it, it's really not that hard if you are willing to lean and ask for help when needed


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## SvdSinner

This is all great advice!

A couple of other tidbits:
1) I've got a few plans for "easing into it" to limit the probability of losing my shirt if I make lots of mistakes. The first year, I plan on doing one or more of a few things:

Hire out all the of the farming the first year to see how it all works. I'll take most of the first year figuring out things like budgeting, marketing and sales. Hopefully, I'll also learn how the field work is done.
During the first year, I'll be patiently watching and waiting for great deals on used equipment. My friend who is helping me is also an auctioneer, and I should have a good chance to find most stuff a lot cheaper than if I tried to buy it all in a week or two at the beginning of the season. (As they say, good quality, good price, get it "right now": pick two of the three.)
I might start with just 5ish acres of "test plot" and build up from there,
I may be able to get a pretty good deal on the land (free or cheap rent), because as a piece of wellhead protection area, it can't be used for things like corn and beans.

2) I'm not really in it for profit. I really enjoy it, and would be happy if I just got a free tractor out of the deal. Plus, if I grow my own hay, I could add a few extra hay-burners to the fleet. Additionally, I'd like to see if I could build it up by the time I retire in 15ish years to have a fun activity and some spare change when I retire.

3) I'm hearing that you can sell junk hay (w/ weeds) for $60/large bale pretty easily around here, and the native grasses that are already there might sell for more than that. I'm guessing (conservatively) that I've got a low-end production of $180/acre (3 bales/acre/season or $14,400 annually worst case) for the full 80 acres. OTOH, the local vet college will buy good quality weed-free hay for $100/acre and I could get production of 5-6 bales/acre ($40k annually, best case) The hay supply is really low around here, since large numbers of hay fields got converted to corn in when the Ethanol boom shot up corn prices. I don't think finding buyer should be too hard.


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## Hay DR

Others have expressed that farming is a hard business to show a profit but all is not lost. All you need is to have a friend or neighbor that has a baler. If you ask someone to mow, tedder, rake and bale your hay you have ask them for a 3-4 day commitment. This is hard for someone to do while baling their own hay. If you cut the hay, tedder & rake the hay then it is easy to get someone to bale the hay because you have only asked them for the time commitment of the baling itself.

You have ask beginner questions and complex marketing questions. First you need to walk before you can run. Let's talk about starting small. The first question is what type of hay is there a market for in your immediate area? You will make more money per ton on hay if you do square bales but you either need access to cheaper labor or invest into the mechanization of square baling equipment. You should try 10-20 acres in one season before you start to get serious. Do some square and some round bales.

I would start with the premise of letting someone bale the hay. Look for a good 40-60 PTO HP full size tractor with live & independent PTO. I would not start with a mower conditioner. There are 2 types: haybines using sickle sections to cut the hay and discbines using disc mowers to cut the hay. Haybine have problems cutting wetter or damp hay. This means you will be starting to mow your hay in the middle of the day unless you are in an area of the country that has less than 20" of rain a year. Using a haybine makes it hard not to miss time at work. A 40-60 HP tractor will not be sufficient power for a discbine. A haybine would only give you a drying advantage in non-teddered alfalfa hay. You can take a 3 point drum or disc mower and tedder the hay and put up grass hay as quick as any discbine. I know because we harvest 500 acres of grass hay twice a year for our own use. The 3 point mowers & tedding grass hay go up just as quick as discbine mowed grass hay but the 3 point mowers are used on smaller more fuel efficient tractors. We can talk for hours as to what brands of equipment will best fit your operation but start slow and you can walk before you run.

You are better off paying someone with the proper equipment to clean-up your farm. Rent a no-till seed drill from a local COOP or seed company.


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## BCFENCE

Hay doctor made alot of good points, Just start slow , get your feet wet then jump in.
THOMAS


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## Heyhay..eh

You seem to have some idea of what might happen from the marketing perspective though I am not sure how your production from bad hay to good hay resulted as you do not get into your plan to make the transition. Also your assumptions seem to be based on 100% results which is not always the case. Over every field, especially those that rely on Mother Nature for water, you will have high and low yield spots, places where one type of your mix flourishes while the others are absent or in a single crop field your will have areas that might not be worth the trip through them. Also you will see that upon planting a fresh crop you will have a gradual increase to peak production and then a trailing of over the life of the field. None of this will follow a mathematical formula as it will be dependent on so many variables that makes predictable certainty next to impossible. So although it is important to analyze the possible outcomes for revenue be prepared for the high probability of not meeting your projections.

If you cannot break your field to put in a fresh crop then you will be in a position where you have to use other methods which may not be as effective as a fresh break. Again that will depend upon a lot of things like soil condition, soil type, compaction, moisture in the soil, current mat, current plant population ...

A rule of thumb is that the more you can rely on your own resources the fewer frustrations you will have during this experience. For each aspect that you have to "farm out" you put yourself at the mercy of others, their schedules and demands. If I was going to have any function let out it would be the mowing because it is the least critical. I'm not saying that it will not be a cause for concern but if they miss the cut then you have nothing ruined. Your timing may be off but everything is still standing. Baling would be the one thing that I would want to do myself for when the hay is ready your window is now and failure at that point puts your crop and revenue at risk.

You work out so scheduling is extremely important for you. Once you commence a process you cannot be stopped for breakdowns. That should be your premise when making your decisions on equipment. You don't need to be buying interim equipment and trading up in a few years as you outgrow it. Consider that you are tooling up for 80a and larger, immediately. Buy equipment that will allow you to expand around it as opposed to trade up and turn it over. I think that you over estimate the amount of mistakes you will make that will impact your equipment. Caution will compensate for what is usually caused by carelessness or inattention.

So I propose the following:

**tractor 80-100hp with loader, 540/1000pto, 2hyd controls look for one in good shape low hours and good service record
**mower conditioner, if no rocks then disk mower could be option but watch hp requirements. If rocks then go with the sickle bar type
**I never use a rake so can't comment.
**4wx5 baler. If you can get one with variable diameter it could be an asset. There are posts i this forum that address the buying of a baler so you might want to search them out.
**2 pull type trailers hooked in tandem with the lead trailer having a telescopic hitch..

This line up will allow you to get your crop off effectively with the minimum of equipment and hopefully better equipment.

Eventually you will add another tractor probably the same size or a little smaller, a truck/ trailer if you are transporting hay any distance, another baler or a square baler...

I would go a little premium on the used equipment because down time will be your worst enemy in your off farm work situation.

I did that for 15 years and there were times I was sure I passed myself going to work.

take care


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## nosliw

I was given this same advice a few years ago when I started putting up hay:

-I heard to stick with the older sickle mowers. Most of them are easy to work on, parts are readily available, and they can be fixed fast. When disc mowers break, it generally involves a lot of down time and parts aren't as readily available. (especially after hours, weekends, holidays, etc when you've got a good window in trying to get some hay down!)

-There isnt' a thing wrong with used equipment, as long as you know how to work on it. Just buy the brands that hold their valve, that way you'll have a better change at re-couping SOME of your money if you need to sell it or trade it in.

I ended up with a New Holland 451 sickle mower, a New Holland square baler, a New Holland 56 rake and a Vermeer 605g roller. ALL the equipment is older than I am, and it's taken some headscratching when there are pieces and parts laying all over the place when it's all blown up, but it works well (the majority of the time) and I have less than $5000 invested in all of it, including the repairs of rebuilding.

I splurged on a new tractor in 2008 (back when I made good money!) that mows and rakes. My rolling tractor is my grandfather's that he doesn't use anymore. It's a Massey 383.

I'll be putting up around 160 acres this year in two cuttings.

EDIT: The only thing I wish I had done different was to get a smaller roller. A 504G would have been better suited for my operation. Those big rolls are harder to transport.


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## cattleman4170

not in it for profit?? so you plan on sinking $100,000 plus or minus, into hay equipment and land rental without wanting to realize some profit? I can tell you for sure, number 1, you are up against Mother Nature so it ain't never going to work out like it looks on paper. Mother Nature hates hay farmers








It takes a very long time and tons of hard hot work to make it in the Hay Business. But that's what this site is for, right??? to share info and get ideas. I started with a IH M tractor and side delivery rake with a IH 140 and a John Deere 336 baler. I used a sickle mower attached to that M, LOL


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## cattleman4170

talk about your "nail on the head" you are so right. I can't fault ALL those that own horses, just a few.
I have had them throw hay in the air, chew it, rub their face in it. fact is a horse is color blind they don't know if it's black or green. A horse goes by smell and taste. I've seen some very well conditioned animals that survived on brush and wild grass. Never had so much as a spoon full of sweet feed or whatever. Many horse owners have no clue as to what it takes to put up a bale of hay. LOL


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## Hay DR

Ok guys here are some prices for equipment that can be used on a 40-60 PTO HP full-size tractor. You do not need to spend a $100 grand. The hay equipment can be done for less than $5 grand without a baler, with a baler 10 grand would buy a nice setup.

New

CCM Drum mower - $3000-4000 mowes hay in any condition as fast as one can stay in the tractor seat- 20 HP minimum 2-5 Acres per hour
CCM 4 Wheel Rake- $ 700 rakes 8.5'
CCM 280 Pull Type tedder- $1,700 tedders 9.5'
USED:

Used Disc mower 7'- $1,500-4,000-
Used 3 point Tedder- $500-$1,000
Used V 8 wheel rake- $1,000-2,500
Vermeer 504 Super G- Baler- $2,500-4,500
NH848 Baler- $2,500-4,500
JD330 or 335- $3,500-5,000
Hesston 540- $4,000-5,000


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## hay wilson in TX

With little or no information on your soil, & climate and only hints on your management style it is difficult to make recommendations.
First off allow me to say harvested forages are an expensive source of feed. 
One reply I want to point out and include in my reply:
*if I grow my own hay, I could add a few extra hay-burners to the fleet. Additionally, I'd like to see if I could build it up by the time I retire in 15ish years to have a fun activity*
If you are looking for a self supporting hobby that can lead into an enjoyable lifestyle in your retirement years this is a valid point. Still we may be putting the horse before the feed cart. You need to start with your forages and their potential yield. There is no sense in trying to feed from your own resources more animal than your ground will support. Just how many animals can your property support, with no out side feed source, & with your present fertility program, plus forage species.

For what it's worth, it is my opinion that the forages have to be considered before any livestock is contemplated. Right now you have livestock and an established Pasture / Hay Meadow. If the plant species is optimal for your purposes then look at your fertility program. As a rule native forages require less fertilizer but at the same time will support fewer animals. Forages left on their own can produce between 2 & 3 tons of dry matter/A with no extra effort. Include a good legume program for a higher yield and higher feed value is a normal first step, if your emphases is grazing with minimal supplements.

Now if your primary goal is to produce hay as a cash crop you are looking at a different management requirement. Number one is hay takes much more from the soil than grazing, even over grazing, does. For hay you will want a good fertilizer program. The better the Fertility Program the more hay you will have. In this case fertilizer is cheaper than more land. *Fertilize for at least 6 tons/A/yr of hay*.

The first question is what type of hay is there a market for in your immediate area? You will make more money per ton on hay if you do square bales but you either need access to cheaper labor or invest into the mechanization of square baling equipment. You should try 10-20 acres in one season before you start to get serious. Do some square and some round bales.

All true, Figure out how you are going to handle and store the hay before you consider a baler. My opinion.

I like, "I would start with the premise of letting someone bale the hay," idea.

I like the idea of purchasing first a mower system. The type depends on the hay you are expecting to grow.

*Now for a different spin*. I advocate purchasing *new equipment*, and for tax purposes use the 10 or 12 year straight line depreciation. Only if you come upon a truly great buy of a gem of a machine buy new with the idea of growing old together. 
Eventually you will be where you need to change equipment, and you will find pull type machines are quicker and easier to hook up to. That or have a tractor dedicated to pulling just one possibly two machines. 
I like a 60 to 90 hp tractor for baling and mowing. A small square baler does not need more than 60 hp while a RBer does better with at least 90 horses out in front. 
For your size and all I suggest your mower be a *9 ft* disk mower conditioner or a *12 ft sickle mower *conditioner. 
Now in the humid conditions you want as much of the ground as possible covered with down hay. At least 75% but 99.99% is better. 
If you are strong on the Mom & Pop deal then have Mom follow the mower by maybe a half an hour with a tedder. Though with a NH Disk Conditioner you can add some fins to spread the hay out for the full width and not use a tedder.

Now 75% of all the moisture is forced out of the hay using *SUN Power*. The more hay directly exposed to the sun shine the more effective the power. 
Now if you are in an arid climate with little or no humidity and a good steady wind in that case you do not need *SUN Power *and you can put your hay in a windrow and bale out of that windrow.

Day one is finished now on to day two. 
If for some reason you feel the need to use a tedder beyond the day of mowing then use the tedder when there is still a little dew on the hay. 
When you rake the hay do it when there is still plenty of humidity to keep your leaves. People think alfalfa or clover, but grass hays shatter just as many leaves as the clovers but it is not so obvious.

Rake the hay the morning of the day before you are going to bale. That last day of curing there is very little effect from the sun. 
(The sun heats the leaves and stems which heats the moisture, which increases the vapor pressure which pushes the moisture out through the nearest openings.)

As suggested by others buy a rake and rake so the custom man does not need to. Learn just what kind of windrow the custom operate really wants for that baler.

All this is assuming you have a reasonably humid climate with a fair probability of seeing rain at irregular intervals.
Baler: If you are baling for your own livestock, consider a *4 X 5 ft round baler *with net wrap. Normally 80 acres of hay is not enough to justify a Round Baler but not needing special hay hauling equipment, and/or a specially designed barn will make up for the extra cost of the baler. With a well designed hay feeder and a good storage system your hay utilization will be about as good as hand feeding square bales. Over all it is about a wash.

Now for cash hay most cases RBs sell for about 66% of square bales selling by weight. *Hay as a cash crop you are ahead going the small square bale route*.

Type of hay to raise is always a question. What do the different feed stores sell? At what Price? With 80 acres you are not going to dominate the market so figure out what no one else raises that sells in the feed store. That is what you want to raise.

Now again if your emphases is your livestock then turn everything into plots for intensively managed grazing, learn that art and science and find your satisfaction in that endeavor. It will cost you a whole lot less.

With management livestock do not need supplemental feeding. That is the word of a hay grower.

In addition: A haybine would only give you a drying advantage in non-teddered alfalfa hay. You can take a 3 point drum or disc mower and tedder the hay and put up grass hay as quick as any discbine. I know because we harvest 500 acres of grass hay twice a year for our own use. The 3 point mowers & tedding grass hay go up just as quick as discbine mowed grass hay but the 3 point mowers are used on smaller more fuel efficient tractors. 
True *if the hay cut with a conditioner mower is dropped into a windrow*. You will not like a Drum mower because it drops the hay in a windrow for one and it is really heavy for another.

Starting now learn to try to out guess the weather. NOAA puts out a lot of good information for no direct cost to you. Or you can look to a Weather Forecasting Service. Regardless start now learning to use a forecast. The Weather Channel is, now more than ever, an entertainment media.


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## cattleman4170

hummmm.

$10,000?
I work, Farm, by myself, sometimes my son-in-law helps rake
I cut 120 acres three time a year. at 3.5t/A = 420 tons or if I'm lucky 10 to 12000 squares. then roll the rest. 1-JD5525, 1-JD2755 w loader, 1-JD336 and 1-JD435, two trailers, two truck, two 40x60 barns, 17' tedder, 9' Kuhn GMD700HD cutter, 8 wheel M&W rake, a 200 gal sprayer, and recently aquired Hoelscher 1000 and Grapple. I work a fulltime job off the farms so time and speed are critical. Now add in Fuel (WOW) $1000 on spray chemicals and $14000 on fertilizer. I'm in it for the profit (little profit). Used cheap quipment don't cause nothing but problems problems problems. I suggest build a spreadsheet (Excel) or aquire one from your local county agents office or Ag University or even off the net and do the math. Be use to factor in your labor, insurance, land cost, etc. You will soon say OMG it cost that much?? then taxes, marketing, and advertising those are production cost too. You will be lucky if you make a dollar a bale. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. I certainly would appreciate hearing how others do it. That's why I became a member, to learn to do it right.


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## Hay DR

hay wilson in TX said:


> You will not like a Drum mower because it drops the hay in a windrow for one and it is really heavy for another.


Hay Wilson what do you call heavy? We have drum mowers from 700 Lbs to 950 Lbs. Most people tedder their hay. Your hay will never dry if the ground under it does not dry. 3 point drum and disc mowers out sell pull-type units 5-1. Plus 3 point mowers are safer for the operator than pull type units, US insurance statistics prove this out. There are ten's of thousands of drum mowers running in the USA.

Of the 95 million head of cattle in the USA 50 million are in herds of less than 100. That means less than 50 cows in a cow/calf herd. This also means these producers are working another job and are price sensitive. The average herd size in Alabama for 2001 was 8 head. A haybine will not mow wet grass hay with any efficiency. A drum mower or disc mower will mow around working hours and missing work cost money.


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## SvdSinner

hay wilson in TX said:


> With little or no information on your soil, & climate and only hints on your management style it is difficult to make recommendations.


I've got a typical Iowa climate, typical Iowa rain-fall, humidity, etc.
Soil makeup (from Soil survey): 
Story County, Iowa (IA169)
* Mean annual precipitation: 23 to 35 inches
* Mean annual air temperature: 43 to 50 degrees F
* Frost- free period: 165 to 200 days

Map Unit Symbol Map Unit Name Acres in AOI Percent of AOI
135 Coland clay loam, 0 to 2 percent slopes 58.7 68.2%
175 Dickinson fine sandy loam, 0 to 2 percent slopes 5.4 6.3%
485 Spillville loam, 0 to 2 percent slopes 19.9 23.1%
1178 Waukee variant loam, 0 to 2 percent slopes 2.0 2.3%
Totals for Area of Interest 86.0 100.0%

Management style is pretty much limited to low-impact methods of growing hay. Here is a rough outline of the limitations of the land since it is a wellhead protection area. (Big document that basically says I can farm as long as I don't use hazardous herbicides or hazardous pesticides and follow an approved nutrient management plan for application of fertilizer/manure)

Additionally, the land is owned by a nearby city (for their wellheads) and their is a mild political element that some local conservation groups do not want to see "industrialized" farming (rowcrops) on the land. IOW, the main reason I might be allowed to farm this particular chunk of land is through the angle of me being a local farmer who is maintaining the land as grass-lands, and maintaining the access road as needed. I'm working with the owners of the land to give me a good rental price for staying within their parameters.

So, since I am seeing local farmers successfully making profit on land they are renting at $200+/acre, I should be able to break even or make a profit at $60-$100/acre rent. (I'm going to see if I can get the rent at $0 for at least the first year while I refurbish the field, remove the scrub trees, etc.)

Hope that gives you the info you need.


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## SvdSinner

Hay DR said:


> Of the 95 million head of cattle in the USA 50 million are in herds of less than 100. That means less than 50 cows in a cow/calf herd. This also means these producers are working another job and are price sensitive. The average herd size in Alabama for 2001 was 8 head. A haybine will not mow wet grass hay with any efficiency. A drum mower or disc mower will mow around working hours and missing work cost money.


This describes me to a T. I keep 4-8 head of Irish Dexters (miniature cattle) and my daughter's pony. I'd like to add 2-4 more head of Dexters and another horse or two. My well-tended pastures can only support about 6 head doing MIG moving them every night with portable electric fences.

I'm basically stuck with too little land to justify equipment, and this idea of haying this field is my (hopeful) break out strategy to be able to buy a few more toys (Tractors, trucks, etc.) without breaking the bank.

But, as a person with another job, it would be disastrous to buy equipment that was too small to cut and bale the hay in the time I have in the evenings and weekends. So, I'm trying to figure out the cheapest equipment I can get by with without falling into the pitfall of not being able to get done in the time allotted.


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## hay wilson in TX

Hay DR did not mean to get your blood pressure up, just stating what I have seen on this farm.

My Dutch Alice Drum Mower is a heavy sucker. One time I put it on a 45 hp tractor and instead of picking up the machine it the three point picked up the off wheel. The tractor would pick it up when it was in trail but not in mow position.

I will have to agree to disagree on this one. 
As long as there is direct sunlight on the down crop the stoma in the leaves will remain open. Put them in the dark and they will close. 
This is important because a third of the moisture can exit the plant through the leave if the stoma remain open. 
Possibly if you have sand to farm you can get on the ground when it is wet, but for clay soils if the soil is WET then the equipment will cut ruts that will last until the field is plowed in some fashion. 
I like to follow the Disk mower conditioner with the tedder because it roughens up the swath and exposes even more of the hay to direct sunlight.

The hay will have more energy and more dry matter if the hay dries down to 48% or less by dark. This is because the plant will no longer have significant respiration and will not burn off carbohydrates over night. I understand this is not a problem in Idaho because the temperature goes down with the sun and it is too cold for over night respiration. 
If you can talk to Pat Bagley PhD and fairly high up in the food chain at one of the Tennessee Cow Colleges. One of his Grad Students did some work a Commerce Texas that reflects this. The Idaho Forage Specialist has a good bit of data that talks about allowing forages to accumulate some carbohydrates during the day, prior to cutting. There they do not allow enough daring time prior to dark to preserve the accumulated energy.

According to the charts HERE I can pick up 4% digestible energy if I do the PM cutting thing. At the same time if I cut early enough to allow the hay to cure to 48% moisture I only loose 2% to respiration during the day. So If I am finished mowing by about 3 pm CDT that gives me 5 hours to cure down and have a net gain of 2% energy. 
This is one thing that gives my hay a competitive edge over my competition down the road. The animals like the little extra sweetness. It is not much but it is an edge.

So in short it does not matter to me if you persist in putting the hay down in a windrow and after the stomata are closed opening the windrow into a wide swath. You hay will go into the night with 55 to 60% moisture and loose net energy over the night.

As I have stated the hay growers in California, Nevada, Idaho, %c put their hay down in a windrow and rake it into a bigger windrow because with their 20% relative humidity and a good breeze they do not NEED Direct Sunshine to cure their hay. If you are where the humidity seldom goes below 50% you NEED all the help you can get.

My reasoning for preferring a pull type equipment compared to a three point, is the speed and ease connect and disconnect a pull type machine.

HERE some folks with three point hitch disk mowers mount them on a caddy so they become a pull type machine.

I like a simple disk mower for mid June alfalfa harvest, when the stripped blister beetle emerges, here. By then the first two cuttings are in the barn. Here June is our third alfalfa cutting but the first bermudagrass cutting.


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## Hay DR

Hay Wilson,

For most part-time operators cost is the most important aspect in equipment. Pull-type mowers are great but are designed for larger tractors. The majority of the part-time operators live in the 40-60 PTO HP range with their tractors. The CCM drum mowers just give that operator the same cutting technology as a disc mower at half the price. Most of these operators mow 10-20 acre hayfields a one time. This means they will be happy with production less than 5 acres an hour. What ends up happening with some people entering the hay production trade is they raise only 20% more hay than they need. hay production is not as profitable and they first thought. All I was trying to do is to show smaller operators you do not have to break the bank to harvest 50-100 acres of hay.

Many operators do not know that these smaller lighter drum mower exist. Yes hay can be put up without a tedder but once you have a tedder you will not go back. If you wait too long and cut the hay after its prime then a tedder may not be needed.

In all of the USA, alfalfa is less than 30% of the hay acres grown. When you talk alfalfa in the South East it is only 4% of the hay acres grown. Alfalfa needs to be handled a little different than grass hay. You got to Iowa and 80% of the hay is alfalfa.


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## JoshA

SvdSinner said:


> My time is also valuable, so I need something that I could make each field pass in 4-5 hour chunks, and I don't have time for maintenance-queen equipment. (Weekdays: get home from regular job, farm until 10ish plus weekends.)


My time is also valuable, so I'll keep this short. Other have given you a lot of information.

One thing that I will say though, is that if you plan on covering 80 acres of old, potentially crappy hay ground (shrubs, rough ground, etc) in 4-5 hours per operation, you're going to be writing some pretty hefty checks.

It takes 4-5 hours (per pass) for me to run through most of my 80 acre fields, and that's with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of big equipment (15' self propelled discbine, 30' rake, 3x4 big square baler, semi's and big loaders). And I tend to haul a--.

Now, if you're planning on breaking that 80 acres into smaller chunks and tackling them one at a time, ignore what I said. If not, well, I suggest you not having 100% of your hay down at once.... eggs in one basket....

Good luck!
-Josh


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## Barry Bowen

How do you make a small fortune with Hay?

Start with a big fortune, and it will be small or gone before too long.

Are you doing hay for something to do? Is it to make money? Do you have a full time income to live on while you are getting started the first 5 years or so? The full time income will also make it more possible to buy the equipment as you go along.

Try working for some one else and see if this is really something you like before you take the big plung. Above all DO NOT TAKE ON ANY DEBT TO DO THIS!!!!!!!!!! If you have to borrow the money to get started, DON'T.


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## grouchy

I'm going to start a service for folks who want to get in the hay business. For $10,000 I'll come to your place, knee you in the groin, drop a front weight on the toe of your choice and drop welding slag down in your boot. It will be cheaper and way less painful.

grouch


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## mlappin

Lots and lots o' replies here.

A couple of women down the road decided to partner up and make their own hay for their horsies as they thought everybody else was charging too much for hay they _thought_ wasn't good enough for their hayburners.

After about three years of trying they had maybe a couple of hundred bales that were horse quality, the rest they had to buy.

Now they rent the hayfields out and use the rent money to buy hay.

Anyways, if it was me given the amount of time your potential hayfield has sat idle, I'd get a crop consultant to come and and scout it for any potential weed problems. Depending on what they say, I'd consider renting it to a farmer and have em plant a few years of row crops on it to cut the weed seed base out some. Course I'm also not a fan of using herbicides on a hay crop and prefer to start with a clean field with little or no weed pressure to plant hay on.

With all the reply's somebody might have suggested this, but I'd find somebody with the proper equipment to get it worked and planted. Then have that person make the hay with the understanding you are to help with it.

You gain two very valuable things here, you get to see first hand the labor involved with it and more importantly you'll know before buying all that equipment if you even _like_ making hay.

You might want to do this several years actually. I just turned forty last fall and started out making hay by driving the baling tractor until Grandfather got off work, when I started that I had to get off the seat and stand on the platform to reach the clutch pedal, so lets say 34 years or so. With those 30+ years of making hay even now I still have whole summers where I wished I didn't have a single acre of hay to mess with after fighting the weather the whole season.

Making hay when the weather cooperates is a enjoyable experience and I can't think of anything I'd rather do more. Then after a year like 2009 when a person could watch the weather, have 4 or 5 forecasts all calling for 4-5 days of clear weather, so you go out and drop a bunch of hay because your behind, then only to have it rain the next afternoon is bad enough. But to have it happen over and over and over again thru the course of the summer is enough to make the whole haying season one miserable SOB.


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## expensive hobby

no doubt,that grief is only the half of it dont forget the fun on trying to get rid of it or for what its worth


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## mlappin

SvdSinner said:


> I
> Management style is pretty much limited to low-impact methods of growing hay. Here is a rough outline of the limitations of the land since it is a wellhead protection area. (Big document that basically says I can farm as long as I don't use hazardous herbicides or hazardous pesticides and follow an approved nutrient management plan for application of fertilizer/manure)


Oh, I missed the part about a wellhead protection area, I read it, it just didn't register. I haven't had time to follow up on the link you posted. Problem I see is this, is their ideal of a proper fertilizer/manure management plan enough to actually grow a crop of hay there? Sure'd be a shame to go thru all that work only to be hamstringed by not being allowed to apply as much fertilizer as the hay might need.

Something else you might wanna consider, what do you need for liability insurance? I'm sure they'd frown on a blown hydraulic line spraying 10-12 gallons of oil on the ground. Is it rolling? God forbid if you should ever have a tractor roll over, as that would be bad enough, but I'm sure if it turned turtle you'd have oil and diesel fuel to cleanup as well according to EPA guidelines.


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## geiselbreth

what kind of grass can u take off job when time to bale do u have help 80 acres is lot of work for one person i run 605 m with neti like a vemeer rebul baler for small operation 8 or 10 wheel rake maybe a fluffer for when the hay gets wet or for faster dry down i run 2 krone 1 is 10 foot mower on caddy the other is a new 3200 cv coditioner along with a kuhnrotorake and kuhn fluffer good luck


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## Hay DR

geiselbreth said:


> what kind of grass can u take off job when time to bale do u have help 80 acres is lot of work for one person i run 605 m with neti like a vemeer rebul baler for small operation 8 or 10 wheel rake maybe a fluffer for when the hay gets wet or for faster dry down i run 2 krone 1 is 10 foot mower on caddy the other is a new 3200 cv coditioner along with a kuhnrotorake and kuhn fluffer good luck


 Every Farm Machinery dealer needs more customers like *geiselbreth*, but 95% of hay tools customers do not have as many late model toys as you do. Usually with smaller operators, the newest piece of hay equipment a small operator owns in his mower. If you do not get the hay down, you will never get it up.


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## SvdSinner

So, I've made a lot of progress, and it looks like I'll have the following deal on this land:

85 Acres that will be seeded with prairie grass, and allowed to grow until August 1st. (So they can let ground nesting birds hatch their eggs.)
No rent. Hay will be payment for mowing. (I'd be required to mow it after August 1)
Limited ability to apply fertilizer.
All the calcium the soil needs to fight acidity - free. (Local city's water treatment plant has to dispose of 27tons of calcium they produce each month, and will apply for free to any field that will let them)

So, it looks like this might become a reality!









I'm assuming that I'll only get 1 cutting/year, and if I could get a 2nd cutting in late October, I'd consider it windfall. I'm conservatively guessing 2.5 large bales/acre (200 bales total) $60 sale price, w/ $15/bale going towards net wrap and hauling (IOW, $45/bale gross profit) So, conservatively low-end $12K of income with cost of fuel, net wrap, and equipment needing to come out of that.

So, one big question as I start formulating a budget: What ratios do you guys use for equipment budgeting? (Total equipment expense/ yearly income, things like that) I'm trying to figure out what a reasonable amount to budget for equipment? I think I could spend as little as $20K on used tractor/rake/mower/baler and get by bargain basement style, but (quite obviously) more money buys more reliability. What do you guys recommend I do to compute an "appropriate" amount of money to spend?

(NOTE: I am going to wait until after this years cutting to see how close my estimations are to reality. If I find I'll have $20K of income instead of $12K of income, I'll adjust my plans accordingly. Right now I just need some ratios to start planning.)


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