# Steel buildings vs. pole barn



## Hayjosh

What's the pro's/cons of building an all steel building (I'm talking about the ones with the large I-beams comprising the main structure) and a post-frame building?

Been toying with a 50 or 60x80. The steel buildings are cheaper in materials and look to be faster to go up, but you need a concrete pad, which would add $20k+ to the cost.


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## TJ Hendren

Some around here just use concrete as the foundation and gravel or just bare ground the interior pad. Also a lot less on property taxes.


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## swmnhay

Wood posts are good for about 40 yrs.Steel on top of concrete will last forever.

Some building company's offer post that's 2 piece that's concrete/ steel that won't rot and then wood above ground level

When I priced my building all steel was about 50% higher then a pole type.And they came out with the new style posts after I put mine up or I think i would of gone that route.


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## r82230

Go with the bigger one (60' x 80'), can you just do concrete around the perimeter? Say like 3'-4', so you could have a choice on the interior area. I definitely like the asphalt in part of mine shed for hay storage.

Larry


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## Gearclash

It is possible to put a steel building on pier footings which will greatly reduce the cost vs a full concrete pad. We built a 60 x 120 steel frame building in 2004. The main rigid structure members are on 18" dia x 48" deep concrete piers. The minor rigid frame components are on 12" dia x 48" deep piers. The frame of a steel building goes up much faster than a wood building, the sheeting is about the same. It does take a different mentality and tools to build a steel frame building than wood frame.

Whatever you do, DO NOT put wood poles in dirt.


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## JD3430

Gearclash said:


> It is possible to put a steel building on pier footings which will greatly reduce the cost vs a full concrete pad. We built a 60 x 120 steel frame building in 2004. The main rigid structure members are on 18" dia x 48" deep concrete piers. The minor rigid frame components are on 12" dia x 48" deep piers. The frame of a steel building goes up much faster than a wood building, the sheeting is about the same. It does take a different mentality and tools to build a steel frame building than wood frame.
> 
> Whatever you do, DO NOT put wood poles in dirt.


Couple years back I got a call to come look at a collapsing wood frame barn. 35-40 of the 4x6 posts were deteriorated at grade and 3' below.
The posts were placed in holes with compacted gravel in the bottoms. 
I cut off and dug out each post one at a time and removed the rotted bottoms and poured new concrete post footings.Then I sistered new treated 6x6 posts to them. I used 3) 5/8" galvanized bolts to sister them to the healthy parts of the posts up to about 4 feet above grade.
The repairs went well, but took a week to complete. I think it cost about $6-8,000 to repair, IIRC.
All caused by not properly treating the original posts and placing them on proper concrete footings, which would have added a very small amount of work & cost when the barn was built 25 years ago.


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## Hayjosh

With the price of steel now the steel buildings have gotten a little cheaper than post frame buildings, and I imagine a steel building would have substantially less labor costs involved too. I've requested a quote though.

I had considered just the idea of pouring a concrete footing just around the perimeter too.

Larry--what was the cost difference between concrete and asphalt in your barn and how has the asphalt been holding up?


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## Gearclash

Hayjosh said:


> With the price of steel now the steel buildings have gotten a little cheaper than post frame buildings, and I imagine a steel building would have substantially less labor costs involved too. I've requested a quote though.
> 
> *I had considered just the idea of pouring a concrete footing just around the perimeter too.*
> 
> Larry--what was the cost difference between concrete and asphalt in your barn and how has the asphalt been holding up?


This makes for a more "finished" building, but it is expensive. We considered a full footing for my dad's building but it would have cost $15,000, and that was in '04.


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## Gearclash

Here is a picture of the inside of my dad's steel building. It is used for hay and machinery storage. 2/12 pitch roof. 2/5 of the floor is concrete where we only park machinery, the other 3/5 is dirt for hay storage and some machinery storage.


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## Hayjosh

Gearclash said:


> Here is a picture of the inside of my dad's steel building. It is used for hay and machinery storage. 2/12 pitch roof. 2/5 of the floor is concrete where we only park machinery, the other 3/5 is dirt for hay storage and some machinery storage.
> 
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> 9A76EB02-1F1B-4EDC-909D-26024C0E078D.jpeg


How did you do the concrete if you used footing piers? Was the concrete pad poured at the same time or a later time.

I'm trying to decide how it would be possible for me to pour a concrete and/or asphalt pad at a later time if I just did pier footings.


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> How did you do the concrete if you used footing piers? Was the concrete pad poured at the same time or a later time.
> 
> I'm trying to decide how it would be possible for me to pour a concrete and/or asphalt pad at a later time if I just did pier footings.


Of course it's possible. In fact, it could be preferable.
You would just put expansion joint around anything that needs it, form pad and pour over rock, vapor barrier insulation, welded wire mesh and/or rebar.
Asphalt, due to its petroleum additives, rejects ground moisture. Concrete tends to wick ground moisture.


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## danwi

Steel building will give you clear spans inside If you are stacking hay with a loader. With the wood building you can get a raised chord truss, they are a little more expensive. Lighting wiring and stuff in the metal building requires brackets and any alterations you make you are working with metal. Wood frame buildings you can staple in wiring and screw in lights and other alterations are easy if you like working with wood. If you go wood frame and stack big squares or rounds we put courses of 2xs around the inside to keep the hay from pushing out the metal. The metal frame building has a little less fuel for a fire but that depends on what is stored inside.


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## Gearclash

Hayjosh said:


> How did you do the concrete if you used footing piers? Was the concrete pad poured at the same time or a later time.
> 
> I'm trying to decide how it would be possible for me to pour a concrete and/or asphalt pad at a later time if I just did pier footings.


We built the building first, then poured the floor. It's kind of a nuisance to pour the floor around the piers but its not a huge deal. You do need to allow room for the floor to heave under the building components if done this way as the piers are frost free and the floor is not. I am in the process of planning a cattle shed. It will have a concrete floor with pier footings coming at least 4' out of the ground. I'm thinking it will be easier to pour the floor first for this, then do the piers.


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## Hayjosh

Well my plans have changed and looks like I might be rebuilding part of one of my original barns. It was the first barn added to the property, a pole barn with 8 foot sidewalls, 30x48. No trusses, they used rafters so there is not a clear span. 10' concrete aisle 6" thick down the center but the 10' to each side is left dirt where the stallmats were, with the exception of where a 10x10' wash stall and tack room are, which are also concrete.

In the late 90's the next owner built on to this and elongated it to a total of 80', same width, also a pole barn. Except that part of the barn has 12' sidewalls, but still no trusses. That barn has a hayloft but I don't put much hay in there because it wasn't built properly to hold that weight. ALL the weight would be supported by 9D nails!

My long term plan has been to tear down the first part of the barn and build to the same height. It leaks real bad and is just a piece of crap. Wiring is a disaster. Then it would be a drive through barn and I could pull hay wagons in and leave them.

Yesterday tearing out the stalls in the old part of the barn, one of the stall posts was rotted out at grade and just snapped off. Problem is, one of the 4x6 posts that is supporting the rafter in the middle of the span I can see is also rotted at the bottom. If there's anything I can be SURE of is that the original owner would not have built this barn properly, even though they did use 5" ring shank nails to build the stalls, which metal cutting sawzall blades will not cut through by the way (gone through 3 blades so far), and even my cat's paw pry bar is now busted. What a PITA but I digress...

The steel company called me today in response to my online quote request and I had changed my request to them on the fly--will now be requesting quote for 30x50 steel barn with 12' sidewalls to replace this one, and tie it in to the existing addition. At least 1/3 of the concrete (and then some) is already poured so would only be 5-6k by my estimation to pour the remainder.

A 30x50 barn is one of their sales right now for 20-25% off. There is a possibility I could have a pile of steel lying in my lot in the not too distant future, to be erected next spring.


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## r82230

Hayjosh said:


> Larry--what was the cost difference between concrete and asphalt in your barn and how has the asphalt been holding up?


Cost of concrete 40' x 64' x 6", plus rat (woodchuck) walls around the 64' x 120' and 5 aprons (10' x 18') outside doors, around $8K in concrete alone (just material that came out of truck). Asphalt, just over $10K, two lifts (two layers), 3" finished grade, 64' x 80', labor included.

Love the stacking hay with no spoilage on asphalt (will have mold within a week on concrete, don't ask how I know that one). Smaller tractor(s) (70HP, 8K??) and truck/loaded wagons no problem on asphalt. Telly (19-20K) and larger tractors (13-14K) will leave indentations if left over night during warmer weather.

Larry

PS I wouldn't build your building at 12', I'd go 16' minimum, especially if you plan on putting wagons of hay inside. The cost shouldn't be much going up higher.


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## Hayjosh

The barn it's butting up to already has 12' sidewalks so I need to keep it to that. I measured my wagons and I can still haul them through a 10' door stacked five high, 6 high is going to be really close. Normally all I stack is 5 high. The exhaust height of a 4430 is 10'6" according to tractor data. That sucks.

Inside height of a steel building is the height to the peak which gives your more overhead height in the center. Too bad the door is the limiting factor.


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## ttazzman

realize your plans are set...but for the benifit of others..to your original question

Steel Pros

large clear spans, typically 26ga high rib sheet metal and 5' purlin spacings (less screws to leak, lower slopes available,more durability, more predictable designs, less pieces to errect, full ussage of interior above eaves, wider bays between columns allow for larger door widths

Steel cons

requires designed concrete footings at columns due to lateral loads in addition to down and up loads, rigid frame columns and beams typically are sloped so you lose side wall space to structure, typically wall girts are 8" equaling lost sidewall space, typically requires a different skill set to erect, total construction is typically more expensive in smaller buildings


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## Lewis Ranch

I just had a new steel building put up 54x100 with 18' walls. 5' piers with 1300lbs of concrete in each hole and 2.5" rock for flooring in the barn. I've got a hair under 40k in it. Here steel was cheaper than wood, it seems like the further north you go wood is more popular.


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## ttazzman

Lewis Ranch said:


> I just had a new steel building put up 54x100 with 18' walls. 5' piers with 1300lbs of concrete in each hole and 2.5" rock for flooring in the barn. I've got a hair under 40k in it. Here steel was cheaper than wood, it seems like the further north you go wood is more popular.


i think you find that around 50' clear span steel starts to become more competivive...at 60' steel starts to be the only option as clear spans get wider this is in addition to regional factors


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## swmnhay

Lewis Ranch said:


> I just had a new steel building put up 54x100 with 18' walls. 5' piers with 1300lbs of concrete in each hole and 2.5" rock for flooring in the barn. I've got a hair under 40k in it. Here steel was cheaper than wood, it seems like the further north you go wood is more popular.


Must be something to do with snow load??I should compare prices again but when I built my shed a steel frame building was 50% higher then wood pole.

They raised the code here up from 28 lbs per sq ft to 35 after alot caved in 10 yrs?? ago.I had mine built for 50 lb snow load,poles and rafters are 6' apart.


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## Lewis Ranch

swmnhay said:


> Must be something to do with snow load??I should compare prices again but when I built my shed a steel frame building was 50% higher then wood pole.
> 
> They raised the code here up from 28 lbs per sq ft to 35 after alot caved in 10 yrs?? ago.I had mine built for 50 lb snow load,poles and rafters are 6' apart.


Snow load, what's that? I couldn't tell you what it's rated at as we don't have snow only ice from time to time. It's 16" I beam on 25' centers.


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## mlappin

For storage either or, for a shop wood for the simple fact steel is not a thermal barrier. Unless you had every inch of the metal building frame and purlins spray foamed they are a lot harder to get as well insulated as a pole building. I've seen a lot of steel buildings that used fiberglass on the roofs instead of that crap foil bubble insulation. Only issue there is when they lay the fiberglass on top of the purlins then screw the roof down you just compressed the fiberglass down to nothing.


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## ttazzman

mlappin said:


> For storage either or, for a shop wood for the simple fact steel is not a thermal barrier. Unless you had every inch of the metal building frame and purlins spray foamed they are a lot harder to get as well insulated as a pole building. I've seen a lot of steel buildings that used fiberglass on the roofs instead of that crap foil bubble insulation. Only issue there is when they lay the fiberglass on top of the purlins then screw the roof down you just compressed the fiberglass down to nothing.


on wood buildings the only option over the purlins is bubble due to the 29ga metal.....with metal up to 4" of insulation can be compressed over the steel purlins due to 26ga metal (more if you strip it back at the purlins)........no over the purlin system is especially effecient....over wood due to lack of thickness of the whole system is crap....over steel due to the compression at the purlin less than a 5% loss area wise the balance of the system is efficient..

under the purlin systems both on wood and steel are very similar in cost and efficiency

in a low R system obviously the wood does not provide the thermal path that steel does...which is good since the wood purlins typically represent about 16% of the roof contact area....vs Steel purlins that represent about 3-4% of the roof contact area


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## Hayjosh

ttazzman said:


> on wood buildings the only option over the purlins is bubble due to the 29ga metal.....with metal up to 4" of insulation can be compressed over the steel purlins due to 26ga metal (more if you strip it back at the purlins)........no over the purlin system is especially effecient....over wood due to lack of thickness of the whole system is crap....over steel due to the compression at the purlin less than a 5% loss area wise the balance of the system is efficient..
> 
> under the purlin systems both on wood and steel are very similar in cost and efficiency
> 
> in a low R system obviously the wood does not provide the thermal path that steel does...which is good since the wood purlins typically represent about 16% of the roof contact area....vs Steel purlins that represent about 3-4% of the roof contact area


I'm not following what you're trying to say, but fiberglass bat insulation (maybe you're not talking about bat??) requires air to insulate. If you smash it, the R value becomes almost nothing. For that matter, at temps below 40 the R value begins to drop by about half.

Steel buildings also should not be spray foamed.


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## JD3430

Under 50 years old (especially with kids interested in farming) steel
Over 50 years old (with no kids interested in farming) wood

Just had my first building spray insulated. I was impressed by how tight and quiet it made the building, but the cost was 2-3x batt insulation.


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## ttazzman

Hayjosh said:


> I'm not following what you're trying to say, but fiberglass bat insulation (maybe you're not talking about bat??) requires air to insulate. If you smash it, the R value becomes almost nothing. For that matter, at temps below 40 the R value begins to drop by about half.
> 
> Steel buildings also should not be spray foamed.


putting it a different way.....when you do a thermal picture of a steel building with 4" of fiberglass insulation compressed over the purlins ....you will see a well insulated roof with very small strips of crap insulation ........on a wood building since all you can up is bubble wrap the whole roof is crap ...

the below the purlin systems for both wood and steel perform equally if you thermally scan the building if the insulation thickness is the same..

i was trying to directly respond to mlappin's statement of "they are a lot harder to get as well insulated as a pole building".......i would contend the opposite of that statement supported by years of thermal audits of various buildings

.


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## swmnhay

Hayjosh said:


> I'm not following what you're trying to say, but fiberglass bat insulation (maybe you're not talking about bat??) requires air to insulate. If you smash it, the R value becomes almost nothing. For that matter, at temps below 40 the R value begins to drop by about half.
> 
> Steel buildings also should not be spray foamed.


Most new steel buildings are spray foamed here for insulating


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## slowzuki

Spray foam cost here is astronomical, likely due to demand.

Wood framed here, strap bottom of trusses, ceiling tin, blow in cellulose or fibreglass. R60 for cheap cheap cheap.


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## r82230

Hayjosh said:


> Steel buildings also should not be spray foamed.


It's done here in my area of Michigan. They put up a plastic wrap (similar to what you see on outside of houses before siding is installed), then the steel siding. The foam isn't touching the steel per se, which allows the steel to expand/contract with fighting the foam with the change in outdoor temperatures, is what I have been told.

Larry


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## Hayjosh

My entire second floor of my house is spray foam...4-6" of closed cell foam in the wall cavities and ceiling angles, and 8-10" open cell in the ceiling joists. Every square inch of external surface is foamed. We had an energy audit with a blower door test done before and after the insulation and the extent to which it tightens your house up is phenomenl. But I have over $6k in insulation up there too and I think it is worth every dollar.

The company I was talking to about a steel building (General Steel) definitely did not recommend spray foam insulation on steel buildings, but that may have been without the plastic wrap?


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## swmnhay

Hayjosh said:


> My entire second floor of my house is spray foam...4-6" of closed cell foam in the wall cavities and ceiling angles, and 8-10" open cell in the ceiling joists. Every square inch of external surface is foamed. We had an energy audit with a blower door test done before and after the insulation and the extent to which it tightens your house up is phenomenl. But I have over $6k in insulation up there too and I think it is worth every dollar.
> 
> The company I was talking to about a steel building (General Steel) definitely did not recommend spray foam insulation on steel buildings, but that may have been without the plastic wrap?


the only draw back I've heard is if you spray foam directly to the steel if you have to replace the steel because of damage from hail etc you would have to reinsulate as the foam is stuck to the steel.


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## PaMike

I spray foamed the walls and ceiling of my shop. Its amazingly tight. Which can be a downside at times. Spray some carb cleaner or another chemical and you call often still smell it in the shop 24 hrs later..


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## carcajou

swmnhay said:


> the only draw back I've heard is if you spray foam directly to the steel if you have to replace the steel because of damage from hail etc you would have to reinsulate as the foam is stuck to the steel.
> 
> We did a hail job for a customer last here and tinned right over after removing the screws. Worked well and after a year no visible signs of issues. Only way to do it as the whole building was a wood structure spray foamed inside.


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## slowzuki

I've seen spray foamed steel for sale locally that was clearly pried off purlins, looks like a pain in the rear to work with. Seller was asking 1$/ft2 claiming is was a great deal.


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## Farmineer95

You won't get hail damage on steel it the foam is right on the steel. It is hard. Might have paint issue. 
Mine is on the steel, down side is it looks weird on the outside, like it shrunk and pulled the steel or something.
How often have I ever pulled a sheet off a building? Never, just saying.


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## r82230

Foam doesn't expand and contract like steel. Here is a formula for how much steel expands/contracts with temperature change:

Use a thermometer to measure the change in temperature in degrees Fahrenheit. For example, if the original temperature was 70 degrees Fahrenheit and the final temperature was 75 degrees Fahrenheit, you would have a temperature increase of five degrees.

Multiply the temperature change by 7.2 x 10-6, which is the expansion coefficient for steel. Continuing the example, you would multiply 0.0000072 by 5 to get 0.000036.

I think it would be about an 1/8" on a 16' piece of steel with a 90 degree temp change.

Larry


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## mlappin

Some guys are using house wrap under the tin then spraying to the house wrap just for easy sheet removal later. Seen this on another forum.


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## Diythomas

Hayjosh said:


> What's the pro's/cons of building an all steel building (I'm talking about the ones with the large I-beams comprising the main structure) and a post-frame building?
> 
> Been toying with a 50 or 60x80. The steel buildings are cheaper in materials and look to be faster to go up, but you need a concrete pad, which would add $20k+ to the cost.


I wish I went with a pole barn. With a steel building, I am limited to a few companies to buy replacement panels. If I need a replacement panel, I will have to order it online and delivery of such a bulky item isn't cheap. I ordered a quonset hut kit and I wish I hadn't. I have photos of my progress at: diysteelbuildingkit.org


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