# 2013-2014 New Tractors - Gov messing with us again



## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

I have a friend that had a JD6310/w620 loader and 2200 hours. He wanted to trade it for a new comprable tractor. They would only give him 27000 for it on trade. He sold in on Craigslist for 35500. He asked 36900. What he found out about the new tractors was earth shattering. He bought a 2012 tractor new because the 2013's have enviromental changes that make them more expensive and the 2014's are worse. The 14's have some kind of exhaust cleaner the automatically shuts down the tractor and goes through the cleaning process no matter what you are doing. It gets extremenly hot. Wonder how wheat or hay fields that will catch on fire. Duh! They don't know if it will or not. Also its going to make the cost about 7000 more. EPA could screw up a one car funeral. I am not allowed to use the words that explains the way I really feel on this site.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Not every manufacturer chose to use regenerative dpf to meet emissions, I know eventually they will but not yet. Face it the days of letting black smoke roll out the stack will eventually end just like the days of factories dumping their waste in the nearest stream


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Oh and trade in allowance being less than private sale prices is normal for tractors and cars. The only places that don't do that inflate the price of the new vehicle so they can allow more on a trade.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

This and other reasons are why used tractor values will not be going down anytime soon.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

A dealership makes money on both ends of a trade. It's just a matter of giving a customer what they think they want.

Lower price on new vehicle = lower trade-in value; more on trade-in = higher price on new vehicle. Any dealership that doesn't do this is out of business. A good dealership knows what they need to make on a deal to stay in business, provide for contingencies, grow the business and make a reasonable living without being greedy. Get greedy = lose sales.

Same thing applies to hay: know your cost of doing business, what your contingencies are and what you need to be profitable. Too many hay producers look to selling cheap to get the business and then go out of business.

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I'd say if the dealer that gradyjohn's friend went to let him sell his tractor himself and that didn't affect the price of the new tractor then that in my opinion is a good dealer. I dislike dealers that offer more for your trade when really they are taking that money out of the price of the new one. In this area the two tractor dealers that we have bought equipment from are pretty honest with trades and the price of new. No games.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Area JD dealer here is.......well let me just say "less than desireable". That is why I drove 300 miles to Northern Ky to purchase my latest Deere. You fellas that have reputable Ag dealers nearby are very fortunate.

Regards, Mike.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm not sure about our Deere dealer. We never have bought anything from them (Though I'm seriously thinking about buying a Gator). We almost bought a disk until the sales guy let us know that he thought Sunflower made the best disk. Though the last time we were in the market for tractors and went to the Deere dealer a comparable tractor was much higher in price then a MF or NH and they won't come down. Hay equipment is another story with the JD dealer. At least with swathers. They will match NH and MF and beat them sometimes in price. I think they might be just trying harder to break into that market. A neighbor bought two JD rotary self propelled swathers. The MF sales guy told me he bid on selling the neighbor 2 swathers, but JD just beat him to bad in pricing. He thought JD had to be almost selling at a loss or just breaking even.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

John Deere also seems to low ball you on trade in. Well actually John Deere offered 12k less than what case did on our John Deere. 
As far as the DEF. I'm not a fan of it as I figured. It gets below half way and the tractor runs like crap. The salesman told me 9gals of DEF per 120gals fuel. He was wrong the def lasts quite a bit longer though. Just seems like a costly extra feature. Shoulda kept that crap in California! Lol


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Colby said:


> John Deere also seems to low ball you on trade in. Well actually John Deere offered 12k less than what case did on our John Deere.
> As far as the DEF. I'm not a fan of it as I figured. It gets below half way and the tractor runs like crap. The salesman told me 9gals of DEF per 120gals fuel. He was wrong the def lasts quite a bit longer though. Just seems like a costly extra feature. Shoulda kept that crap in California! Lol


 I'm assuming that is a fuel additive you have to mix with the fuel. Since when did that happen? Are all of the newer tractors like that? I have been very seriously considering looking into getting a newer Deere tractor but if you have to put an additive in the fuel that's out as I get my fuel strait from the pump at the gas station. Sorry for my ignorance on the subject but all my tractors are quite old I don't keep up with all the ins and outs of new tractors.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tier 4....this regulation change is pure Obama.....this was first implemented in 2011 in the high horsepower tractors.... and will be fully implemented in 2014 in almost every useful tractor. What you might want to do if buying a tractor is look for a Tier 3 tractor. Some are available as late as 2012, many available in 2011. I bought a low hour 2010 not too long ago(150 hours) to get the Tier 3 emissions. John Deere has a very indepth report on Tier 4.....just google Tier 4 Tractors. The current Tier 4 regulation tractors are just a temporary stop gap measure by the industry until technology produces a more viable alternative. Some tractors have emission fluid that has to be added to a reservoir called DEF....diesel emission fluid. Not against cleaner air.....just need a more viable solution....which will be available probably in the next 5 years. I understand the tech is out there....that the cost of production is not feasible as of now.

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Def isn't mixed with fuel it's reacted with exhaust it's just urea basically to clean up the nox


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> Tier 4....this regulation change is pure Obama.....this was first implemented in 2011 in the high horsepower tractors.... and will be fully implemented in 2014 in almost every useful tractor. What you might want to do if buying a tractor is look for a Tier 3 tractor. Some are available as late as 2012, many available in 2011. I bought a low hour 2010 not too long ago(150 hours) to get the Tier 3 emissions. John Deere has a very indepth report on Tier 4.....just google Tier 4 Tractors. The current Tier 4 regulation tractors are just a temporary stop gap measure by the industry until technology produces a more viable alternative. Some tractors have emission fluid that has to be added to a reservoir called DEF....diesel emission fluid. Not against cleaner air.....just need a more viable solution....which will be available probably in the next 5 years. I understand the tech is out there....that the cost of production is not feasible as of now.
> 
> Regards, Mike


This is why I wouldn't buy a new tractor, swather, diesel truck in the next 5 years. In 5 years something better then DEF will come along then it will make the used DEF equipment lose value. Plus in 15 years maybe it will be hard and more expensive to find DEF to buy. I think this Tier 4 stuff is why used equipment prices are rising so fast. That and a lot of farmers don't want to deal with the electronics on the new ones either.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

All of your new trucks will also have DEF fluid. My 2011 Chevy does, it's not that bad. Ive had to fill the fluid twice and it has some 24k on it. Dodge trucks got grandfathered in, however that just ran out and the new ones will have it too.

On the JD note, it was primarily the atattude of the local dealership as well as price that lead me to NH and Kubota.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well even though the DEF isn't mixed with the fuel and its a separate reservoir I still don't want to mess with it. Should have know it would take someone like that Obama to think up an idea like this. My stomach turns over every time I hear that name.

This may be a silly question but how do you tell if the tractor is tier 3.... And does the tier 3 have any disadvantages? Upon recommendation of some of the folks on this site I was thinking along the lines of a JD 6330 or 6320 or maybe 6420 or 6430, are these tier 3 tractors?


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

If I could find a used veggie oil supply I would go strickly bio-diesel. Problem in Denton and Gainesville run bio fuel so supply is low and resturants sell theirs.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I got lucky and found an almost new 2011 Kubota M126x tier 3 and told that tier 4 Obama nonsense to kiss my hay farming ass. I'm not dealing with that nonsense and you shouldn't either. There's plenty of clean low hour used tractors out there. 
I'd rather have 2 used tractors for $40k rack than one new tier 4 for $80k.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> This may be a silly question but how do you tell if the tractor is tier 3.... And does the tier 3 have any disadvantages? Upon recommendation of some of the folks on this site I was thinking along the lines of a JD 6330 or 6320 or maybe 6420 or 6430, are these tier 3 tractors?


Not a silly question at all. Most years of the models you have listed are not Tier 4....I think there is a possibility of a few of the 63 or 64 series being tier 4 in their very latest year of production but I am not 100% sure. If buying from a dealer just ask....if buying from a individual get the serial number and ask either a JD dealer or contact Deere themselves. You are much better off in the long run avoiding the Tier4 tractors as of now.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I will say this about John Deere, there is a reason that they are far and away the number one selling tractor in this land. Many of their dealers are less than desirable....but most of their tractors are highly desirable.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I think Vol is right abut the 6430...6330. Etc....don't think any were tier 4...but maybe they were...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol said:


> I will say this about John Deere, there is a reason that they are far and away the number one selling tractor in this land. Many of their dealers are less than desirable....but most of their tractors are highly desirable.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I agree. The bottom line for me is to break into the hay business, I had to get in cheap. I'm sure comparable Deere will outlast my Kubota tractors, but I couldn't afford their price premium. 
I've sat in enough Deere tractors to see that they ARE built heavier and more robust than most others, although CASE makes a nice heavy tractor, too. 
I hope My next tractor will be a Deere 7810 or possibly a CNH. 
Kubota makes a really nice, although lighter built tractor, which is fine for me sine I don't till any ground. I think Kubota makes a great hay tractor and that's all I really need right now. I just want to own a real American made Deere some day.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

DSLinc1017 said:


> All of your new trucks will also have DEF fluid. My 2011 Chevy does, it's not that bad. Ive had to fill the fluid twice and it has some 24k on it. Dodge trucks got grandfathered in, however that just ran out and the new ones will have it too.
> On the JD note, it was primarily the atattude of the local dealership as well as price that lead me to NH and Kubota.


I really don't have any idea for sure, but I think a buddy of mine bought a 2011 dodge that had it....but it coulda been a 12 as well, I know he complained about it, he said when it went into regeneration mode he lost substantial braking power...a real concern as he was pulling a 35' fifth wheel going out to Colorado....he parked it in a dodge dealer parking lot and dodge bought it back, to their credit, he said it was dangerous, had other issues as well, but I thnk he had to put def in as well....can't ask him as he died of cancer 8 months ago, nice guy, taking the family on their last trip....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm holding on to my 2008 F550 until a better solution comes out. My truck has the glorious regen feature, but it has an extended warranty to cover it when the rocker arms finally grenade.

Would really consider looking into a Mitsubishi fuso or isuzu 4x4 farm truck. They use them for canyon tours out here in the canyons and swear by them. Maybe one of the big 3 will come up with some new concepts to make trucks for WORK again someday instead of for super truckers with 8" stacks in the bed. Might also look into an older F-800 4x4 and just drive a smaller 4x4 diesel pickup. 
Really wish these jackasses would make a Ranger type small truck with a diesel again. This country can be so ass backwards compared to other countries when it comes to diesel powered vehicles.....


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

GM(Isuzu) was supposed to come out by now with a 6 banger diesel for passenger car and small truck use......you hear nothing or can find out nothing about why that did not happen. Very puzzling.

On a separate note, turned 300k on my 2001 GMC HD 2500 diesel on this past Monday. Thinking about buying a 2014 Toyota Tacoma to knock around in and letting my GMC retire to "pulling status only"....I put seat covers on my leather seats in that GMC the day I bought it new.....take them off once in awhile to laundry and the leather is still "pure kitty" to this day.....a few creases but as fine as aged wine. Some of the area school boys are about to wet their pants to buy it off of me...................ain't gonna happen.  

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> GM(Isuzu) was supposed to come out by now with a 6 banger diesel for passenger car and small truck use......you hear nothing or can find out nothing about why that did not happen. Very puzzling.
> 
> On a separate note, turned 300k on my 2001 GMC HD 2500 diesel on this past Monday. Thinking about buying a 2014 Toyota Tacoma to knock around in and letting my GMC retire to "pulling status only"....I put seat covers on my leather seats in that GMC the day I bought it new.....take them off once in awhile to laundry and the leather is still "pure kitty" to this day.....a few creases but as fine as aged wine. Some of the area school boys are about to wet their pants to buy it off of me...................ain't gonna happen.
> 
> Regards, Mike


GM (Isuzu) already has a 6 banger diesel actually it might be a 4 cylinder. I can't remember. It's called a D-max, but not sold in the states. I've seen them in Panama. I really like my 2010 Tacoma. You would love it's size for everyday driving compared to the 2500HD. I've read and heard that they are redesigning the Tacoma for 2014. However the pictures that I've seen of the "new" Tacoma is just a Toyota Hilux that is an awesome small diesel truck that the rest of the world gets to buy, but we do not.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agre with the small truck diesel. Ya know Chevy had the luv that was available in diesel I believe, Volkswagen had their little "truck" diesel, but not many others besides Isuzu of course....I have a 02 jetta with diesel that has plenty of torque for a small truck and the engine is great....200k +. Commonly hear of them with 300k....did I mention it gets 42 mpg....also have a 06 jetta diesel, started having to meet standards and the engine is not as reliable.....still it gets 45 mpg....with 180k miles...

I say take one of those engines or an Isuzu diesel and stick it in a ranger size truck....I for one will be a buyer....


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## crashncowgirl (Jun 25, 2012)

If you want good tractors try zetors they're built like tanks a d run like deeres at least deere thinks so


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

crashncowgirl said:


> If you want good tractors try zetors they're built like tanks a d run like deeres at least deere thinks so


You must live in Fla. F has the only dealer in the country. How do I take mine in for service ... I live in N. Texas. Dealer support is very impt to me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> I agre with the small truck diesel. Ya know Chevy had the luv that was available in diesel I believe, Volkswagen had their little "truck" diesel, but not many others besides Isuzu of course....I have a 02 jetta with diesel that has plenty of torque for a small truck and the engine is great....200k +. Commonly hear of them with 300k....did I mention it gets 42 mpg....also have a 06 jetta diesel, started having to meet standards and the engine is not as reliable.....still it gets 45 mpg....with 180k miles...
> I say take one of those engines or an Isuzu diesel and stick it in a ranger size truck....I for one will be a buyer....


Back in about 1979 I worked at a camp and we had a Chevy luv diesel with 4wd. Can't believe they made a truck like that 30 years ago and don't make one today. Ford made a diesel ranger, too.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Back in about 1979 I worked at a camp and we had a Chevy luv diesel with 4wd. Can't believe they made a truck like that 30 years ago and don't make one today. Ford made a diesel ranger, too.


I'm pretty sure Ford still made a diesel ranger for a long time. But it just wasn't available in North America. In Panama every small truck and SUV except the very smallest car like SUVs are diesel. My sister in law has a Mitsubishi Montero and it is diesel. It gets amazing mileage and lots of power. Mitsubishi even makes a small diesel pickup truck.


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## Fowllife (Sep 10, 2010)

Although not a "small" pickup, Dodge will offer a diesel in the 1500 series, and Jeep in their Cherokee starting in 2014.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

You're talking about a DPF - particulate filter. The 6.4 Ford had one too that was pretty bad. Once they load up they need to burn themselves out to clean up. You don't loose braking power, only engine power as it completes its cycle. Some types of operation and cold weather can clog the things really fast and if you ignore the regen request it will eventually do it when it wants even in the middle of driving.



somedevildawg said:


> I really don't have any idea for sure, but I think a buddy of mine bought a 2011 dodge that had it....but it coulda been a 12 as well, I know he complained about it, he said when it went into regeneration mode he lost substantial braking power...


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

You guys are being a bit ridiculous you can't just impose these regs willy nilly. Tiers of emissions for diesels and DEF or super EGR and DPF have been mapped out as the emissions future of diesels for about 20 years now with engineers and scientists working on this. Republicans were in power for Tier 2 and 3 transitions, its a longer term issue than voting in or out a president.



FarmerCline said:


> FarmerCline, on 07 Jul 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:
> Well even though the DEF isn't mixed with the fuel and its a separate reservoir I still don't want to mess with it. Should have know it would take someone like that Obama to think up an idea like this. My stomach turns over every time I hear that name.


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## T&LSkaarfarms (Dec 11, 2011)

Sounds like a PIA. Never say never but I am sure glad that I have no plans for any tractor this new for a long long time. Give me a 86 or 88 series IH any day. I would keep rebuiding them every 10 years or so untill the day I die. OK, I am sort of tempted to buy a magnum one of these days...

Tom


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

slowzuki said:


> You're talking about a DPF - particulate filter. The 6.4 Ford had one too that was pretty bad. Once they load up they need to burn themselves out to clean up. You don't loose braking power, only engine power as it completes its cycle. Some types of operation and cold weather can clog the things really fast and if you ignore the regen request it will eventually do it when it wants even in the middle of driving.


Yep that's the one, but if you loose engine power, you loose vacuum. Now I know that most trucks have an auxiliary vac pump so not sure if the braking would be affected by it or not, but he said he didn't think he was going to be able to stop and that prompted him to stop at his nearest dodge dealer and park it in front of the service door for them to deal with....he bought a new f350 with the ford diesel to pull his camper back home....and he did say it would regenerate in the middle of driving, probably because he had been driving cross country for a several hours.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Was at the Cnh dealer today, said the had to replace a new engine in a tractor the other day, 800 hrs. 24k $, said it was because of a loose air filter (customers fault). Wonder if a older diesel would have fared the same, priced an injector lately? All this emission crap may or may not improve the environment, time will tell I guess, in the meantime somebody has to pay for it.....


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Not in a diesel or turbo diesel. The brakes in old ones are powered by a vacuum pump on the alternator or they have hydroboost brakes run off the powersteering pump.



somedevildawg said:


> somedevildawg, on 08 Jul 2013 - 9:02 PM, said:
> Yep that's the one, but if you loose engine power, you loose vacuum.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

slowzuki said:


> Not in a diesel or turbo diesel. The brakes in old ones are powered by a vacuum pump on the alternator or they have hydroboost brakes run off the powersteering pump.


True, mine does run off of the power steering pump, and it has a pump for other vacuum acc. So why do you think he lost braking power? He obviously did, he had pulled big trailers and the like his entire life being a fertilizer distributor and farmer....he said he had never seen anything like it, thought he was gonna kill his entire family, only did it when it was in regen mode, which he said could come at any time, but you could definitely tell it was regenerating when it did it....musta been a problem, dodge bought the piece of junk back.....had less than 12k on it, and I believe it was a 12, although he purchased in 11.

Funny thing is, his family and mine used to camp together and he always bought Ford, for some reason he decided to buy this dodge, well, really because a mutual friend of ours owned the dodge dealership, he left heading to Colorado, when he got back he was driving a f350....he only had the dodge for about 10 months.....I tried to tell him....only time I ever bought a dodge product I lost my shirt, pants, and underwear, swore em off that day....


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The only reason I can think the two are linked is if the exhaust brake released during regen. The truck would still have full braking power, just have to use the foot brakes.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I wonder what the longevity of these engines will be?Karens BIL drives for local trucking co that runs about 120 trucks.He has told of horror stories of engines needing overhaul at 1/3 of miles as before.


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

I really doubt they will last as long as they did before. My reasoning being as when you would pop the hood on older diesel trucks there really was to much stuff jammed under the hood. The more stuff you pile on an engine to get it to meet emission requirements the less reliable it will be. Example is the ford 6.0 in their trucks from 2003 to 2007. They had EGR problems that caused them to randomly detonate motors. The ford 6.4 has been out for a few years now and that is far from reliable also when it comes to longevity. I truly believe that when it comes to farm truck use they will not last as long. However when they are over the road hauling campers and flatbeds all the time, I would be willing to bet they would last just as long if not longer.

JD3430, have you had any issues with your F550?, we are looking at one down the road, but my neighbor was telling me that they are terrible on mileage and are unreliable.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The first generation of anything new has poorer lifespan anyways but if you have any engine design background you know the higher the hp per displacement on a diesel the shorter the lifespan. Its a direct correlation for almost the entire history of diesels. Spinning them fast with higher cylinder temps/pressures gets you hp and drives up wear.

These little diesel engines in light trucks have marched from what 160 hp in the early 80's to 400+ hp now with no increase in displacement, not really anyway around reduced lifespan.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

sethd11 said:


> I really doubt they will last as long as they did before. My reasoning being as when you would pop the hood on older diesel trucks there really was to much stuff jammed under the hood. The more stuff you pile on an engine to get it to meet emission requirements the less reliable it will be. Example is the ford 6.0 in their trucks from 2003 to 2007. They had EGR problems that caused them to randomly detonate motors. The ford 6.4 has been out for a few years now and that is far from reliable also when it comes to longevity. I truly believe that when it comes to farm truck use they will not last as long. However when they are over the road hauling campers and flatbeds all the time, I would be willing to bet they would last just as long if not longer.
> 
> JD3430, have you had any issues with your F550?, we are looking at one down the road, but my neighbor was telling me that they are terrible on mileage and are unreliable.


I bought it used with about 35k miles on it. Lost 2 injectors, 1 injector wiring harness and replaced upper rad hoses. Some other small parts were replaced under warranty. Now at 65k miles. Ford mechanic is very capable experienced guy and tells me 6.4 is a rocker arm eater and should take out its own rocker arms soon. Also one of the 2 turbos is notorious. I extended the warranty to 100k miles and 7 years. Cost me $3,000. Ridiculous. 
I actually like the rest of the truck, but the doors squeak quite a bit. 
Amazing that a 2008 truck can still suffer the same problems my dads (RIP) F-250 suffered in 1972.
All that said, it tows a 24k gooseneck trailer and handles it fairly well. Truck is roomy and fairly comfortable, has good HVAC, visibility and handles like a smaller truck. It fits in my house garage, too. This was important to me.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Yes I agree higher hp more rpm usually means faster wearing motor, but they do keep making improvements in engines better alloys of metal better air flow. One thing with my 2010 6.4l ford is the transmission. They have them geared so that you dont have all that high of rpm going down the highway. I can go 100 km at just under 2000 rpm. I think this will help it last a bit longer than some engines. Cummins had the 5.9 motor at 2000 rpm( which they had in some casr tractors) you got about 110hp but they kept pushing the revs to get more horses. The thing was driving down the road the motor was always running fast.

Grandpa would say dont be the first to buy something new. Let them be around for a few years so they can work the bugs out of them.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

1) Alloys are better but we are talking marginal gains here. Machining tolerances are a lot better though.
2) The air flow is needed due to the hp, not really any new tech about it. 100 year old water radiator.
3) The gearing allow low rpm is because the cylinder pressures and torque are so high on the new motors they can make big hp even at low rpm. High cylinder pressures increase wear too as all the bearings and rods are under high loads on each stroke. Any way you cut it its lower life for high hp from few cubic inch. You can spin it fast or turbo the snot out of it. Both generate increased wear and loads on the engine components.

Tractor pullers know all this, when you run on the ragged edge of hp per displacement your engine life can be measured in minutes instead of hours.

Its partly why the cab and chassis models of trucks are detuned from the pickup versions, the factory knows they are operated under heavier load during their lifes so the engine has to operate at a higher hp level on average shortening the life. By limiting the peak torque and hp a bit they can meet engine life requirements. The other part is some emissions rules that are different.



hog987 said:


> Yes I agree higher hp more rpm usually means faster wearing motor, but they do keep making improvements in engines better alloys of metal better air flow. One thing with my 2010 6.4l ford is the transmission. They have them geared so that you dont have all that high of rpm going down the highway. I can go 100 km at just under 2000 rpm. I think this will help it last a bit longer than some engines. Cummins had the 5.9 motor at 2000 rpm( which they had in some casr tractors) you got about 110hp but they kept pushing the revs to get more horses. The thing was driving down the road the motor was always running fast.
> 
> Grandpa would say dont be the first to buy something new. Let them be around for a few years so they can work the bugs out of them.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I guess I was not clear on my point. Yes I agree the new diesel engines are not as reliable some what due to all the moving parts. But in the last several decades engines have gotten smaller with increased hp and have generally been reliable.

Now for something like a tractor pull the biggest effect on engine wear in that short of time is heat. To produce 1000hp out of a small motor there is not way to get rid of the heat fast enough.

Now for driving down the highway at a low rpm it will help to increase engine life. Because at that time the engine is neither producing much hp or torque. Just kind of running at a fast idle really. Now floor it and than you hit max torque till it shifts gears and than you are hitting the high hp. Also how long an engine lasts depends on how it is driven etc.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Holding rpm really low with tall overdrives to improve economy runs cylinder pressures much higher than on older lower geared diesels, things get really hot and cause problems with emissions too. Part of the reason why you don't see a standard offered on Ford or Chev's diesels. I'm guessing if they haven't Dodge will have to dump their standard soon too.

Edit I looked around a bit and see Dodge still have the 6 speed on their lower output cummins, knowing a bit about fuel injection maps on gas engines, that is a lot of work to get that to meet emissions. It must be worth it in terms of sales to folks like me that prefer a standard.



hog987 said:


> Now for driving down the highway at a low rpm it will help to increase engine life. Because at that time the engine is neither producing much hp or torque. Just kind of running at a fast idle really. Now floor it and than you hit max torque till it shifts gears and than you are hitting the high hp. Also how long an engine lasts depends on how it is driven etc.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm actually hearing a lot of talk that DPF diesels need to be run hard to last. A DPF diesel used to compensate for lack of manhood will often times encounter problems with emmissions later in life. 
My favorite Ford mechanic told me my truck and all the other Ford 6.4's need to be taken on long trips and given a good flogging to keep the DPF clean of soot. He said anyone who buys a 6.4l for short, light unloaded use would be much better off with a Ford gasser or a DEF diesel.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> The first generation of anything new has poorer lifespan anyways but if you have any engine design background you know the higher the hp per displacement on a diesel the shorter the lifespan. Its a direct correlation for almost the entire history of diesels. Spinning them fast with higher cylinder temps/pressures gets you hp and drives up wear.
> 
> These little diesel engines in light trucks have marched from what 160 hp in the early 80's to 400+ hp now with no increase in displacement, not really anyway around reduced lifespan.


Same thing on tractors and combines, smaller engines running faster with higher compression equal shorter lifespans.

Thing we found out years ago instead of going to bigger injectors and cranking the smoke screw in was that in the long run you're better off going and buying a bigger tractor if you really need more HP.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Even the variable vane turbo and egr's had trouble coking up with soot under owners who babied them. I'm a fan of the DEF, simplifies the engine back to Tier 2 almost.



JD3430 said:


> I'm actually hearing a lot of talk that DPF diesels need to be run hard to last. A DPF diesel used to compensate for lack of manhood will often times encounter problems with emmissions later in life.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm afraid my short trip / heavy pull pattern living out here in the east is going to result in trouble for my 550. Buddy of mine uses another 550 to help me deliver hay. It has a 6l that pukes coolant badly. He's dropping a 5.9l cummins in it this winter. Rest of truck is pretty good. The problem with the IH diesels is they were not made to make 350hp. They were made to run about 300hp in a school bus or box truck. 
I have thought about installing a little Banks kit on my 6.4l to get the exhaust brake and a slight tweak in the fuel curve for a little better performance, but they're $900.

What I'd really like is a 20' flatbed 4x4 with air brakes allison auto that can carry 14-16 round bales and a small diesel 4x4 truck stout enough to pull a round baler as an every day driver to fit in my garage.
I'm thinking an f-800 or freight liner fl70/80 with cummins 8.3l and then I don't know what for lighter truck. Maybe a dually 3500 5.9l or another duramax/ally. We had a 3500 dmax for 6 years and it never gave us a minute of trouble.


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

JD 3430,
The def trucks especially the new ford 6.7 cannot be driven at low speeds and light loads, without the correct programming. What happens is with out an extended period of high speed driving or hard driving the truck never gets and oppurtunity to go into regen mode. Down at the township we had a 6.7 f350 with 11k on it of local driving, no highway hauls at all. Kept going into limp mode saying it needed to regen. Now we have to do parked regens every 2500 miles, or it will lose horsepower.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

hog987 said:


> Yes I agree higher hp more rpm usually means faster wearing motor, but they do keep making improvements in engines better alloys of metal better air flow.


Top Fuel dragster and Funny Car engines are designed to live only 5 seconds! And many of them don't live that long! They are producing up to 10,000 HP from 500 cubic inches. They idle at 2500 RPM and hit 8500-9000 RPM peak. They only run 1000' before a complete rebuild. They accelerate from 0 to to 280 MPH in just 660 feet (1/8th mile). It costs upwards of $50,000 per run down the dragstrip.

That's turning up the smoke screw!

Ralph

5 second life--Sounds like an old Fiat I once owned.


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