# Just starting out.....



## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

I am wondering if getting in the hay business is a smart move on my part. I am blessed at 34, with my family's situation I manage a 300 acre commercial cattle farm while managing a full time job. We purchased a small farm across from my family before my grandfather's passing. At that time someone needed to step up, and I was that guy. My grandmother wanted out of farming so I helped her sell off the remaining herd. During our initial conversation we came to the agreement that either A. She was gonna sell off the timber and the land or B. I was gonna take over the up keep and expenses and treat as if it was mine. Since then I have worked my tail off learning what it means to be a good steward of the land. I have worked myself up to 32 head in the past two years (nowhere close to enough stocking rate but they are all young and paid for). A lot of the equipment that most guys would have to beg borrow and steal for, I have at my disposal. The last cutting of my first season I put up 18 bales and tore up everything I touched, last year I put up 120 bales (2cuttings) only because I had a lot issues that followed me from the previous year. So far this year, I've put up 227 round bales off my first cutting. Things are finally starting to feel like they are on the upswing. Now in saying that, there are are a few issues. All of the equipment is older but in really good shape. Everything has always been shed kept and very clean. Out of four JD tractors only one has over 2000 hrs. My round baler is the dreaded Jd510, I swapped out all the belts over the winter and went with the wider conversion which seemed to make a world of difference. However, I've never sold a lot of hay and I'm thinking that in my area "horse owners" are gonna be my market but along with that comes expenses. Square baler, accumulator, hay barn, front end loader (there's not one on the whole dang farm), etc. I am more than appreciative to take good or even bad advice and I'll try my best to sort them out over here. Something has got to be done with this land and I more than want to see it stay with my family's name attached to it. It has 80 acres of timber, 40 acres of good pasture and the rest can be used for hay/pasture fields. I have the tractors, the rakes, the trailers and the trucks what I don't have have is the confidence just yet to take the leap. I know where I can pick up another 140acres of fescue and clover (mixed grass) within 1 mile if I can just give the guy my word. Which is all fine as long as I can do what I say I'm gonna do. I think my issue is obviously knowledge. I don't currently have enough figures to put together a good business plan to see if it makes sense. My apologies for rambling but any information would be greatly appreciated.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

This enterprise is in addition to your two jobs? I'm not going to say it can't be done, but if you did decide to go the route of horse hay, can you somehow get it done when it needs done? You sound busy.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Welcome to haytalk lilez, I assume when you said 300 acre cattle farm, you were referring to the existing farm of grandmothers? 80 acres timber, 40 acres of pasture and ? Acres remaining? Just a lil confrused on the amount of land but I believe you have a sweetheart deal going on there.....however, there will be some things that you will have to do to protect yourself, you'll probably have to get to know the Deere dealer down the road, figure out the market, lots of "things" but you have an envious position....you sound like a hard worker, best of luck to you....give us a little more specifics, acreage, equp, etc.

Once again, welcome to haytalk, you'll find quite a few from TN ready to "volunteer" their time...


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

That is a really good point. My thought is that I've got expenses regardless. Certainly not to the magnitude of others but I've got equipment that is being used a dozen times a year for basically maintenance. I don't have the capital to feel these fields with cattle so I have to be able come up with a plan B. As far as horse hay, I don't know that, that is the answer. In my area, W.TN, I know that out of 100 cattle farmers probably 90% have their own hay equipment. Out 100 horse owners, maybe 15% do their own cutting. If I can build up to where I have enough cattle to provide for my family and made this my job. I like to think I would make that swap in a heart beat.


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks somedevildawg, pleasure to be here. Yes you are correct, the 300 acres is not mine. This land, it doesnt have a flat spot on it, lots and lots of rolling hills. Definetly not good bottom land like you would see on so many pictures. 40 acres of good pasture but ruff to cover and just shy of 180
Acres of hay ground. Only half of that hay ground has been consistently used for hay. The other half has been my project since last year. It's smooth enough for it but had just been neglected. As far as equipment. 
4640 cab
2555 cab
2240 
And the last tractor is actually a red belly ford not a JD. 
JD 510 baler large belt conversion 
Kuhn 700 GMD HII (this is my second one, I destroyed the first one)
New holland 489 hay bine
Two old side discharge mechanical hay rakes (I'm wanting a 10 wheel rake)
12' disc
(2) 12' cultupacker
Bushing bog 
Spreader
18' woods bush hog
8' woods bush hog
Breaking plow
300 gallon boom less sprayer trailer
60' vermicomposting continuous flow beds
32 momma cows
1 angus bull
Calves 
4 horses
3 dogs
3 cats
Chickens


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Also, I forgot the hauling equipment. 
There are 4 round bale trailers. They haul 8 ea, 14 if I had a front end loader. 
3 24' flatbeds
And then the farm trucks


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

That's a good selection of equipment.....glaring out is the omission of a FEL, definitely will need one for all types of work, it'll be your new best friend....and yes a rake may be in order. But that's a great start! And all for a capital expenditure of $0.....fantastic, you're in a good position, next to figure out the market and put the pencil to the paper (or fingers to the calculator) and see what will work in your area.....good thing is you have cattle....you can always get your feed cost out of any hay you find trouble marketing....for me, squares is the only way I can make decent money, your locale may differ....


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

What are your goals for the future? If plan A is cattle maybe you just have to get creative as how to get there.

If plan A is selling small squaees thats a different story.

Thoughts on cattle route:

Improving/upgrading some hay equipment to more efficiently make round bales. 10 wheel rake is a good plan. Love mine. Fel? Move hay quicker and easier as well as numeeous other chores.

Custom grazing and or trading hay for cattle can help you get there. They also have the added benefit of making you so much better before so much bigger.

As for the horse hay route: others are way more qualified than I. From what I gather you either need some indentured servants or a pile of equipment to get it up in a hurry around the weather and day job. As well as covered storage. By the time you buy this you could have expanded your heed...

Best of luck. Well we know it really isn't as much luck as it is a return on your investment of labor. And welcome to Haytalk.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I'm glad you're the one baling with the JD 510 and not me!!! . If you're thinking of selling rd bales of hay I'd suggest for you to get a 4 ft wide baler with hyd tension. A JD 430 rd baler is far better than a 510


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

There are a ton of great points in just a few comments. "TXJim", I absolutely agree that 510 can be a nightmare, I believe I dislike the closed throat most of all... Stop that that thing up, heck I wouldn't wish that on anybody. My thought is, if I can limp along for a couple more years and then I will purchase a good 4' net wrap if for nothing more than transporting options. I think I would just sit that 510 in the barn for a backup, however I think there are more important pieces to acquire in the the mean time. Like a "FEL" Front End Loader... It might be a scenario of "can't see the forest for the trees" but I think it should make life easier on so many occasions. I could build a hay barn much easier. I've got the cedar trees and a saw mill just down the road. As far as custom grazing, yes I dabbled a bit in that last year and the carried over into the beginning of this year. To be completely honest, I just didn't like it. All I had essentially done was got another boss, however I feel like, being a rookie could have very well played a major role in that. It did however help me get the cattle I have today. Squares vs. Rounds. "Somedevildawg" , I believe you've got to be correct. There's just more money in squares, Example: 1,500lb of Hay , Round bale $30 or (30) 50lb square bales x $5.00 ea= $150..... True there are more cost going into the equation but you get the drift. "Deadmoose", trading hay for cattle, that's freaking genius why didn't I think of that... Is that a thing, really? I'm gonna have to look into that... My Goals however, as complex as they might be are still pretty simple. God, family, and cattle. All I really want to do is farm this land, I'm just trying to build it up before I can't make a leap like that.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Not sure on the what timber prices are, but that might be a way to cover the cost of putting a loader on one of your current tractors. There are several decent brands of aftermarket loaders that have quick-attach styles both for hooking up to the tractor as well as switching between buckets/bale spears/etc.

As for squares vs. rounds... see what the market is first. The local market can be one thing, but also check a little further away and see if there is a better market that you could ship into. I ship the majority of my had to Florida and get decent money for it there (customer pays the shipping too). It took me a couple years to find my current customers, but they've been getting hay from me for several years now without any problems. The thread below covers some of how people are finding customers to sell to and there are numerous threads on problems with customers long distance (and short distance for that matter).

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/23073-best-way-to-find-hay-buyers/

I do small squares, but I had everything I needed for it (well, almost everything) and basically just took over from my dad. I also am lucky enough to have a job with a flexible enough schedule that if I take a day off here and there, it isn't a problem. I'm set up with a JD348 square baler (have a JD 336 as a backup) and a NH 1033 stacker wagon (I think you have almost all the other equipment you would need for small squares). I line up a crew of 3 to 5 guys for the evening and can have 5 to 6 hundred bales put up in the barn in a day (we did a couple 1000 bale days this summer, but that was a lot of work). I currently put all my hay in a loft with an elevator, but a poll barn will eventually eliminate that and the labor I have to hire. In my area, stacker wagons are a little hard to find, but if I was just starting out like you are, I could probably find a decent baler and wagon for $10,000 or less. Keep in mind, the wagon is what works for me, other options like an accumulator may be better for you.

The big question I have for you on small squares is what kind of storage do you have? If you already have some, that makes it easier. If you have to build it, then you are looking at a bigger expense to get into the market.

One last idea is to borrow/rent some small square equipment for a year or two and see how it works out as far as selling it. You may find that it is not your cup of tea with little investment as far as equipment.

Hope this helps and welcome to Haytalk!


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

LilEZ

There is more profit in selling sq bales VS rd bales but there's more problems & labor involved also.


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Josh, I believe your spot on. Selling timber would definitely help even though there's a lot of clean up. It's worth having a conversation with my Grandmother but it seems unsettling for some reason. I feel gracious enough for having this opportunity but then I'm going to ask her for a little more. Taking some of those trees to build something on this land, such as a hay barn, that doesn't bother me. It's improving on the farm and doesn't seem unfair, however selling her property to fund my dream is different. As far as storage, we have a lot of barns but most are full. You can always make room but a hay barn has definitely been a front runner in the goals department. I think I can trade hay to a local builder for trusses and tin and then use some cedar timbers for uprights and lumber, and then shazzam, pole barn. 40x60x16 ceilings with 12-15' wings on each side. However if I could find someone that would trade with me for a front end loader, 10 wheel rake, baler, accumulator, grapple, etc. then I'd have it going on. As far as, checking the market, I've got ruff numbers but I'm not sure how accurate they are. I'm still trying to figure out what my numbers are with tons per acre, my yield has been so inconsistent due to mainly operator error that I'm left scratching my head. What do horse hay buyers look for when buying hay, do they buy mixed grass or do I need to be more precise in my fields. So far there are a lot of variables that I just don't know. I'm just stacking them up and chipping away at them, one at a time.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If starting from scratch (no barn or square bale equipment), I'd build the barn 18' high so that you you unload any NH stacker in it and skip all of the other handling equipment.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

LilEZ said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what my numbers are with tons per acre, my yield has been so inconsistent due to mainly operator error that I'm left scratching my head. What do horse hay buyers look for when buying hay, do they buy mixed grass or do I need to be more precise in my fields.


Hay yields will change as you refit/reseed the fields and apply fertilizer/lime/spray, etc. I was amazed at how much more production I got just from applying some fertilizer in the spring. It is definitely difficult to get it figured out quickly as it takes a year to get your next set of data.

As for the type of hay, I personally do a timothy type, but this will also depend on the section of the horse market you are going after. Grass hays are good for pleasure horses and "pets", but horses that are used for polo or racing will need to have a higher energy hay like alfalfa. In general, please horse owners are a little easier to deal with, but you'll run into tough-to-please people no matter what your market is. What horse owners look for in hay varies a great deal and depends largely on how well they have educated themselves on what makes hay good. Some people just look at the color and smell and others want to see a test report. Search the forums a little bit and you'll find numerous posts about this topic and about what really does make hay "good".


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If starting from scratch (no barn or square bale equipment), I'd build the barn 18' high so that you you unload any NH stacker in it and skip all of the other handling equipment.

Edit: somehow getting a phone call right as I'm posting causes a double post. Huh.


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

HI Tech, that NH stacker is nice but pricey... Plus I'd be concerned about turning it over, out here on these hills.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

LilEZ said:


> HI Tech, that NH stacker is nice but pricey... Plus I'd be concerned about turning it over, out here on these hills.


Having not seen your hills (seems everyone has a different definition), I'd say that could be a valid point.

Price, depending on how you look at it, may not be. Once you figure on an accumulator, grapple, FEL, preferably a second loader of some sort to always park at the barn, wagons and or trailers, not to mention extra man hours with the accumulator system compared to stacker... That starts to get pricey too. Those things won't add up to the cost of a brand new stacker, but you'd be well serviced by a well-functioning used one which you could easily buy with the same or lesser budget.


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Hi Tech, I agree with you 100%. Time,fuel and labor play a crucial role in just about any venture. I can definetly see the advantages of having a stacker. An operation like that is definetly something that I would try to work toward if I decide this could be profitable. However, I see myself more as low start up try to build a name and reputation before spending 35k on a used piece of equipment. True I should be looking at 15-20,000 to get it where I can bale square bales which is my whole point. Is it better to spend 20,000 on cattle or equipment. On one hand the equipment adds an extra income which in the long run might help me reach my goals quicker. Or is it better to keep skimping and saving And putting all of my money on cattle. I think starting the second income is the more logical choice. What about round bales? Are there any of you out there making profit baling round bales? How do you market round bales?


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

One thing I noticed was that you didn't make mention of a tedder! I wouldn't even consider trying to make dry hay without one!

As for a FEL, are any of your tractors 4x4? If so, I would consider that one for the loader.

One other thing to think about, the price of beef is up now, but will it drop?

Welcome to Haytalk! I hope that my comments are helpful!

Dave

Oh by the way, I like your choice in breed of cattle! Black and polled!


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

LilEZ said:


> Hi Tech, I agree with you 100%. Time,fuel and labor play a crucial role in just about any venture. I can definetly see the advantages of having a stacker. An operation like that is definetly something that I would try to work toward if I decide this could be profitable. However, I see myself more as low start up try to build a name and reputation before spending 35k on a used piece of equipment. True I should be looking at 15-20,000 to get it where I can bale square bales which is my whole point. Is it better to spend 20,000 on cattle or equipment. On one hand the equipment adds an extra income which in the long run might help me reach my goals quicker. Or is it better to keep skimping and saving And putting all of my money on cattle. I think starting the second income is the more logical choice. What about round bales? Are there any of you out there making profit baling round bales? How do you market round bales?


 Being that your in the South unless your area is different than here there is not hardly any profit in selling round bales. When I used to round bale I could just barley break even. Squares are much more labor intense but even with the extra labor you can make some profit on quality square hay.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Welcome to Hay Talk.

Don't worry about whether making hay was the right decision. You have done it for two years now and have unknowingly become addicted.

In our area square bales are usually the better quality hay. That leaves the connotation that all hay that is rolled is second rate hay. Hard to get that notion out of people's head. I can not make a profit selling rolls of hay here in the Southeast.

There is a little more hay making knowledge required in making squares. We did that for many years. I doubt I will ever square bale again. Just too many little nagging things for me to deal with in square bales and the people who want them.

The best money for me in round bales is to feed them myself.


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

"Sheepdog". Yes, I do have a Tedder. Forgot to mention the Tedder but I my defense I've used it once and then stuck it in the barn. I purchased the Tedder during my first cut this year. The weather man kept talking rain everyday for almost two weeks but it never rained until I cut my first field on Memorial Day weekend. So, I got up early that morning, ran to the dealer and bought a used belt driven two wheel Tedder $500. Used it that weekend and haven't used it since. It seemed to do alright until you got in the heavy stuff. Next, 4x4, there isn't one. I know, heartbreaking but it's hard to miss what you've never had. "Tim South", I believe your right I have become addicted, which is probably why I've ended up here, wanting someone to convince me that I'm doing the right thing. I do love it, from the moment that first bale hits the ground to the last. There's a since of pride in accomplishment that comes with it. To some, this amount of acreage is no tall feat but to me it's just so much more. I'm starting with something that it took the man before me 60years to accomplish and now it is my turn to learn it and grow it into something more for the next in line. Maybe it's nothing more than a rookie mentality and simply it hasn't had time to wear the new off but I do take pride in tending to these fields.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

Welcome! Lots of good advice been given. If you build a barn, definitely consider the 18' height as was said earlier so you wouldn't be limited on stack wagon height or if you go stacking with grapple on FEL (which you will get and be so glad you did) that you can get a taller stack under the same roof area. How 'rolling' are your hills? We use a NH stack wagon in our area but I know terrain can change quickly. There were a couple stack wagons (maybe 1033 or 1034) at a local consignment sale near us when they had their last sale in early summer -- think their next sale is mid-September. Unless you have a special situation from here, the round bale market won't cover expenses.

Shelia


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Rocky Hill, I agree there are tons of great advice that has been given. So many questions have been answered and lot of different outlooks that I would have never thought of on my own. I'm glad I ran across this site, it is packed full of information and I feel like I haven't even scratched the surface. I think square bales will be the next step. Although, there are things that will have to happen between now and next spring, I think the path is clearer. The NH1033 is more of a possibility than I was thinking originally seems to be very convenient and the price is nowhere close to what I was thinking a used one was running. Still concerned about it being too top heavy over here but it's still worth looking into. 18' ceiling will have to be a must and I would have never known that if I hadn't wound up here. Cattle buying might have to go on hold for the rest of the year but I keep thinking their to dang high anyways. Why couldn't this position opened up when cows were cheap..... Front end loader seems to be the next purchase (unless I tear something up this weekend bailing hay), Hay Barn when it cools off a little bit, grapple, good used baler, and probably a stacker who knows.... While I'm here, there has been something I have been wondering about and just haven't started looking for the answer yet. What do y'all do about hot hay? I guess my thinking is that square bales have to be out of the elements quickly and in doing so there has got to be a heat factor. How do you keep from burning down your barns and your crop?


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

If you can get your hay down to 18 to 20% maximum moisture content, then you should not have to worry about the hay heating too much. I usually aim for 15 to 17% moisture when I bale. Any lower than that and you can start to have the leaf of the hay shatter as the hay is handled. Given that I am so far away, I would check with someone from your area to see what they do. I have a preservative applicator on my baler, but I hardly use the actual spray. The applicator has a built in moisture meter that reads the % moisture in the hay as it is being baled.

A decent, baler-mounted moisture meter will run a couple hundred bucks. Applicator systems will range from a few hundred to a couple thousand depending on what you want, who you get it from and who installs it. My applicator is an older Harvest Tech automatic system that I bought used for $700 and installed myself. The other thing to consider with an applicator is the costs associated with applying the chemical. The stuff I use can run between $0.17 to $0.25 per bale. You can also get hand-held moisture testers to check the hay before and after baling bailing.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

You're right about the small square bales needing to be out of the elements quickly; they also need to be baled at a moisture level that heating up doesn't become a problem. I can't help with using the preservative but there are experienced folks here that can help you with that. We've started using moisture testers (both hand held & baler mounted) to know when the hay is getting too high moisture from the evening dew to need to stop baling. In our situation, know when to start baling is a learned process. We have grass hay and stems must break before we bale; the leaves will be cured a lot sooner than stems. Keep in mind that you'll be dealing with moisture that can cause hay to mold and moisture from 'under cured' that causes combustion. Add to that there is the 'sweating' that baled hay goes through where temperature does rise in the bale but not to combustion seriousness. In our area we have dews that keep up from leaving hay on the ground at night too.

Shelia


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## LilEZ (Aug 19, 2014)

Well, my second cut this year is off to a rocky start to say the least. Baled till about 10 last night and the old jd510 decided to jam up and break 2 brand new bottom belts. But in reality wasn't to big of a deal because I had just about everything picked up that was raked. Spent six hours this morning getting it clear and replacing belts. Then I decided to go ahead rake another 24 acres and just as I got hooked up to the baler, the bottom dropped out. Now of course the weather man said it was gonna be hot and dry but the big guy in the sky seen it another way. Oh yeah, over the next hour we had a heck of thunder boomer, we got three and a half inches of rain. Now, it's gonna be days before I can even get in the field to bale hay that's gonna be a ditch filler. Sure did need this rain but the timing was awfull from where I was standing.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

LilEZ said:


> Well, my second cut this year is off to a rocky start to say the least. Baled till about 10 last night and the old jd510 decided to jam up and break 2 brand new bottom belts. But in reality wasn't to big of a deal because I had just about everything picked up that was raked. Spent six hours this morning getting it clear and replacing belts. Then I decided to go ahead rake another 24 acres and just as I got hooked up to the baler, the bottom dropped out. Now of course the weather man said it was gonna be hot and dry but the big guy in the sky seen it another way. Oh yeah, over the next hour we had a heck of thunder boomer, we got three and a half inches of rain. Now, it's gonna be days before I can even get in the field to bale hay that's gonna be a ditch filler. Sure did need this rain but the timing was awfull from where I was standing.


Get used to that.....


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