# Getting "help" with fertilizer costs



## JD3430

You all know my situation. New commercial hay farmer. I cut and keep the hay, the customer gets their fields cut. Seems to be a win/win, but after getting some less than stellar soil test results back, I know it's time to spend $$ on NP&K and lime.
This topic has probably been beat to death, but I have a twist to the topic.

Is it "fair" or "ethical" to ask the land owner to foot some of the fertilizing bill? Sure, I benefit from increased yields, but with no fertilizing at all, we're talking about fields of noxious weeds in the future.
What is fair? I provide everything? They provide some contribution? If yes, how much?
Thanks, would like to hear your thoughts.


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## slowzuki

I had a land owner on the same arrangement offer to buy up to about 1000$ of lime per year for having their 66 acres cut. Its all weeds and I had approached her regarding spraying. She talked to another farmer who suggested the liming. It needs about 4000$ worth of lime so I've agreed to plow about 5 acres a year, incorporate the lime and seed. In exchange I get the hay. I'm sure they would not do this indefinately.


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## swmnhay

You are getting all the hay so I would say you should pay 100% of fert/lime bill.Perhaps get a longer term rental agreement so you don't loose it after liming it.You are gonna benifit with higher yields and better hay nutrition.It would be different if he was getting some of the hay.

You are getting the hay ground for free.So don't kill the goose that layed the golden egg!!

Look at what the landlord may think.I gave him this ground for free and now he wants me to pay him to take it.


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## Chessiedog

swmnhay said:


> You are getting all the hay so I would say you should pay 100% of fert/lime bill.Perhaps get a longer term rental agreement so you don't loose it after liming it.You are gonna benifit with higher yields and better hay nutrition.It would be different if he was getting some of the hay.
> 
> You are getting the hay ground for free.So don't kill the goose that layed the golden egg!!
> 
> Look at what the landlord may think.I gave him this ground for free and now he wants me to pay him to take it.


 I would agree 100 percent . If I was letting some one mow for hay and asked me that . I would have to say I'll look for some one else to mow it .


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## JD3430

Great points you make. I thought it couldnt hurt to ask.
One of my customers currently pays for some of the lime. I pay the rest.
I think the "free" land presents an issue. I could lime and fertilize the *%#@* out of it and be shown the door by the end of the season. Then someone else gets any remaining fertilizer benefits in following seasons. I remember reading a recent thread about getting written leases, too.

One othert thing, though. If I'm cutting hay on someone's land for free, and there's no fertilizer applied, then shame on me, but I know pretty much for a fact that previous hay guys did not apply fertilizer, either. The soil tests seem to prove this. If they go back to those kinds of low-quality hay contractors, wont they eventually wind-up with a barren, unproductive patch of weeds?

When I really crunch the numbers, if I apply the lab-recommended amounts of NP&K, I would get at best 2X the hay tonnage (say I would go from 2 to 4 tons per acre), but 2 tons of hay per acre may not sell for the $200/acre spent on fertilizer. My gut tells me I might be able to cover the costs.
I guess I need more information: Does a high dose of NPK would only last one growing season? Or would I get benefits beyond 1 year and then be able to apply less cost in fertilizer the next year?


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## Tim/South

I pay for the lime and fertilizer on the free lease fields I cut. One place I picked up last year is going to take a lot to get back in shape. People took advantage of a widow. 
Sometimes the first year your profits may be very slim, the second year is better. It will pay off in the long run.
In my case I can feed the lesser quality hay, pretty much the same as the mushroom outlet you have and the volume increases.

It is not a bad idea to let the land owner know the dollars you are spending to get their land up to par. Now would be a good time to extend a lease or get one in writing.


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## Lazy J

Your hay, your fertilizer.


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## Tim/South

JD3430 said:


> Great points you make. I thought it couldnt hurt to ask.
> One of my customers currently pays for some of the lime. I pay the rest.
> I think the "free" land presents an issue. I could lime and fertilize the *%#@* out of it and be shown the door by the end of the season. Then someone else gets any remaining fertilizer benefits in following seasons. I remember reading a recent thread about getting written leases, too.
> 
> One othert thing, though. If I'm cutting hay on someone's land for free, and there's no fertilizer applied, then shame on me, but I know pretty much for a fact that previous hay guys did not apply fertilizer, either. The soil tests seem to prove this. If they go back to those kinds of low-quality hay contractors, wont they eventually wind-up with a barren, unproductive patch of weeds?
> 
> When I really crunch the numbers, if I apply the lab-recommended amounts of NP&K, I would get at best 2X the hay tonnage (say I would go from 2 to 4 tons per acre), but 2 tons of hay per acre may not sell for the $200/acre spent on fertilizer. My gut tells me I might be able to cover the costs.
> I guess I need more information: Does a high dose of NPK would only last one growing season? Or would I get benefits beyond 1 year and then be able to apply less cost in fertilizer the next year?


I did not see this post when I replied above.
No way would I invest in fertilizer with out a long term lease, even a free lease. I have lifetime agreements on 3 places I cut and bale. None of these places had the previous balers put one cent back into the land and it showed. The property owners know the before and after me being there. I am a little bit pampered to keep coming back. They know the dollars I have spent on their land and they do appreciate owning a healthy looking place.
I have a friend who spent 3 years getting a Bermuda field back to horse quality hay. The owner doubled the rent when the hay went into squares.


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## JD3430

I guess the only reason I still think when the owner should help out is in the beginning is if the land was crap when I was offered the land to hay. Of course I had no experience and did not know to test the soil before agreeing to take it over. My bad. But even then, the stronger arguement is as was said above, "your hay, your fertilizer".


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## Tim/South

Things to consider.

If you let the land go would others be willing to pick it up for free? If so, then he would still have someone willing to keep it cleaned up for free.
If no one wanted the land to hay then he would have the expense of paying to have it it with a batwing.

If the people who cut and baled before you also have a free lease then he made no money. If they were paying rent then you might have a point that he should be willing to put something back.
Many property owners do not understand hay or Ag in general. They look at you with their head cocked if you ever mention expenses. Most seem to feel you are making tons of money or you would not be there.


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## Lazy J

If you don't apply any fertilizer you are simply mining the soil, not being a steward. I view fertilizer as a key element to my farming operation, if I want to be profitable then I need to fertilize.

If nothing else you need to be applying at least a replacement rate of P and K on the land.

Jim


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## JD3430

Tim/South said:


> Things to consider.
> 
> If you let the land go would others be willing to pick it up for free? If so, then he would still have someone willing to keep it cleaned up for free.
> *If no one wanted the land to hay then he would have the expense of paying to have it it with a batwing.*
> 
> If the people who cut and baled before you also have a free lease then he made no money. If they were paying rent then you might have a point that he should be willing to put something back.
> Many property owners do not understand hay or Ag in general. They look at you with their head cocked if you ever mention expenses. Most seem to feel you are making tons of money or you would not be there.


Thats kind of what I was thinking. Eventually, if land is hayed and nothing is put back in the land, it will turn into weeds and crap. So eventually, nobody would want to hay it. Then the landowner would have to pay to rotary mow it. Might cost less than heavy fertilizer......

Most of my landowners have been very accomodating, helpful people. It's like they want me to succeed, but it's expensive when you inherit a patch of weeds and grass. Hey, I aint whining or crying, I'm a big boy and I'm gonna do the right thing. I guess I thought "doesn't hurt to ask"??


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## JD3430

Lazy J said:


> If you don't apply any fertilizer you are simply mining the soil, not being a steward. I view fertilizer as a key element to my farming operation, if I want to be profitable then I need to fertilize.
> 
> If nothing else you need to be applying at least a replacement rate of P and K on the land.
> 
> Jim


Thats exactly right. I did it last year and I'll do it again this year. Its just that I took over some fields with single digit phosphorous and low potassium and when I saw the costs, I thought the owner might want to help get the fields kick started this time istead of footing the whole bill.
I told one customer last season that the conditions of the field were so poor that it I wouldn't be able to afford to fertilize them properly. I would be trying to make weeds into hay. He agreed to help me with the costs.


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## Lazy J

JD3430 said:


> I guess I thought "doesn't hurt to ask"??


"He get all the hay for nothing, now he wants ME to help with the fertilizer?"

Having a free lease on ground is worth a LOT, were I you I would not push my luck.


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## hillside hay

Lazy J said:


> "He get all the hay for nothing, now he wants ME to help with the fertilizer?"
> 
> Having a free lease on ground is worth a LOT, were I you I would not push my luck.


second that. Up here a weed patch will fetch 100 per acre to the dairy or corn man so I wouldnt let it go over an input responsibility broughhaha. Definitely get an agreement on the ground for sure. I was burned severely my first year by not signing agreements for "free ground".


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## swmnhay

_The fertilizer you will be putting on should be making you more more tons and more money.So you are money ahead.Beings it is rental ground just use maintence levels of fertilizer,not build.You will be getting more return on the first $100 worth of fertilizer then your 2nd $100.Spoon feed it don't dump it on._

_Get it soil tested!_

_ooops I see you had it tested._

_You can't even get road ditches free here anymore.







_


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## Chessiedog

I guess I look at it this way . If I had chickens and they were laying more eggs then I can sell or use and offered you a dozen for free . Then you call me and ask me if I can come and cook them for you . I doubt I'll give you any more . Kinda like if I gave some one a car , the tire goes flat , calls me to fix it .

Be really nice if there was some free ground around here ,but it all comes with some kind of price at least that I know of . One guy had a falling out I guess with who ever was renting from him , put his 50 some acres in our_ 4 page paper that come out once a week ,_ had 32 calls in a day or so .


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## JD3430

Lazy J said:


> "He get all the hay for nothing, now he wants ME to help with the fertilizer?"
> 
> Having a free lease on ground is worth a LOT, were I you I would not push my luck.


Not exactly. They do get paid back something because I cut their fields 3 times a year. Otherwise they'd have to pay for rotary mowing. 
In my area, you are not allowed to let fields go uncut for long. Often The local authorities will fine you for allowing noxious weeds to grow. That is how I got 2 of my customers in the first place.
In fact, 2 of my other customers were paying me some pretty hefty money to rotary mow their acreage. I approached them with a proposal to cut their acreage FREE in return for me keeping the hay. I saved them money because they weren't even aware they could have their property hayed in the first place!

I don't doubt or disagree with the points you all are making, nor want to be perceived as disagreeable. I just think everyone's situations are different. Some of you live in areas were you are competing for farmland. Around here, most landowners are greatful to find someone who can keep their ground cut for free.


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## Tim/South

> I just think everyone's situations are different.


This is very true and worth repeating. For a long time I would relate any Ag topic to how it related to my area and traditions. State laws, local regulations and customs vary across this great nation.


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## FarmerCline

I also do not pay any rent on my hay ground. The fields I do are small and odd shaped and most of them came to me in very poor condition. Year before last I made the hay without fertilizing as most in my area do and it was a bunch of crap. I could not in good mind sell this hay as good fescue like everybody else does when it had more broomsage and other wild grasses than it did fescue. Last year I decided that in order for me to make any money I was going to have to grow something that nobody else was growing , a quality product. I quickly found out how much it was going to cost to get these fields productive. I decided that my best route was to show the landowners how much money I was investing on their land as a way to convince them to sign a 5 year lease with out me having to pay rent because most of them did not want to sign a lease unless I was going to pay rent. I did not dare ask them to help me out on the lime and fertilizer bill because they would rather let it grow up than have to pay me to do it and I get keep all of the hay. I also use the fact that I try to be a good steward of the land and keep the property looking better than my competition as a way to get more fields. I would say the landowner should not share in the expense unless he gets part of the hay.


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## slowzuki

I should note on the "free" fields I hay I mow all the edges, ditches etc and string trim around utility poles. I also remove any rocks I find that I can handle with my equipment and cleanup all the blow down trees on the edges.

Both "free" fields have strict rules of no manure, no herbicides. One has a rule of no commercial chemical fertilizers, the other I have to mow a second time for weeds. So there is limited opportunity to build fertility.

They have agreed to permit woodash be applied which has liming equivalency and potassium. I'll be seeding clover into the one that is no chemical to help with the nitrogen.


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## Tim/South

On one of my free fields I mow the dam for the widow. I take my lawn mower and make it look right. She is pushing 80 and has a beautiful place, cuts all the grass herself. She had a tree down across the access road I use. She called and said she would have someone come out and remove the tree. I told her I would do it, took the saw and BobCat over and cleaned it up. I refused pay but had $200 in the seat of the truck when I left. Gave it back to her for Christmas.

On another place I cut all the property, even that I do not fertilize and bale. It is the extended part of their front yard, steep small terraces and not worth raking.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

JD, I think you have received some great advice again. I would not dare ask for any help if I were you. In my opinion, Here, the most important thing for my land is lime. I can grow some really nice hay by just liming, but of course I would not get the tonnage that I need to make a profit. I would start with the lime and then slowly bring up your fertility as you can afford. If you are cutting 3 times a year, there should not be a weed problem. Remember, I am talking about here in Va. And not Pa. Lime will sweeten your ground considerably and should be done ASAP because it takes quite a while for it's affects to take place. Good luck which ever way you go. Mike


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## JD3430

Yes, I am grateful for the advice. I have no mentor. You guys are my mentors and I have learned much from you. I will give back when I have more confidence.


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## swmnhay

A Craigslist Ad I just ran across it would be 40 miles from me.Fits this thread well.

http://marshall.craigslist.org/fgs/3654364008.html


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## somedevildawg

Get a lease on all of these fields to protect your pocket book "free" or not.....
Just saw Craigslist link above...no way could that type of deal work down here.....but then again we really have to hit it hard with np&k ...


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## JD3430

So if I understand CL ad correctly, if there was $1,600 ($800 for owner/$800 for hay contractor) in hay and only 6 acres, wouldn't that would be the same as charging about $133/acre in rent and hay contractor keeps all $1,600?????

Who the heck would do that?

Actually its worse than flat rate rent because if the rent was $100 acre and you NPK the heck out of it, at least you would make more money.
Sounds like an offer nobody would want to take....


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## somedevildawg

Yea, someone is getting hosed on that deal, glad we ain't got land rent down here like that, animals would be starving to death......


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## Fowllife

Please don't take this the wrong way, but you need to get long term leases, fertalizer or not! It is foolish of you not too. You have invested a lot of money into hay equipment the last couple of years. Without a written lease the landowner could change their mond tomorrow & you are sitting on a fat payment with idle machinery & no hay to cut. Flying by the seat of your pants is one thing if you have equipment paid for but is foolish IMO with a large amount finances, especially when 100% of your ground is rented.

I agree with the other, get a lease & pay for ALL the fert. & lime yourself. When something is "free" it's easy for someone to give it to someone else. If you pay for the fert & get it producing well someone will come in & actually PAY the land owner something. Either way your SOL without a lease.


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## JD3430

Probably a great idea, but most of these customers would not like the idea. Some would be insulted and might even show me the door if I came to them with a written contract. Its just not customary in MY AREA. A verbal deal is considered good enough and a mans word is all he has.

However, you are 100% right. I have taken a chance and invested a lot of my life's savings into this business venture. I just met with a potential customer yesterday and will be asking for leases from here on out with people who are strangers to me. Theres no way anyone around here would lock something in for 5 years unless you've known them since birth, especially when you're new in the business, like me.


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> So if I understand CL ad correctly, if there was $1,600 ($800 for owner/$800 for hay contractor) in hay and only 6 acres, wouldn't that would be the same as charging about $133/acre in rent and hay contractor keeps all $1,600?????
> 
> Who the heck would do that?
> 
> Actually its worse than flat rate rent because if the rent was $100 acre and you NPK the heck out of it, at least you would make more money.
> Sounds like an offer nobody would want to take....


The part about landlord not paying for any fertilizer but still getting 50% would be major turn off for me.

You have to remember what the grass hay is worth HERE.1st cut $175 a ton and 2nd $200+ in Rd Bales.Was some last week @$270.

I'm renting some 50-50 and pay 1/2 the fertilizer.There is cropland hooked to the deal,pkg deal.

Landlady turned out well on that this yr.Netted well over $300 per acre on the hay ground.


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## Vol

swmnhay said:


> Landlady turned out well on that this yr.Netted well over $300 per acre on the hay ground.


If I could rent out my hay ground for $300 acre I would be mighty tempted to sell my haying equipment.









Regards, Mike


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## farmboy9510

As farmers it is our job to maintain the land. I was always taught that you leave a farm in better shape then you got it. Whether that means applying fertilizer or spraying weeds trimming trees or chopping ditch banks etc.

Alex


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## swmnhay

Vol said:


> If I could rent out my hay ground for $300 acre I would be mighty tempted to sell my haying equipment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards, Mike


But I made over $300 an acre also.For cutting 2X,rakeing 2X, and baleing it.


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## hillside hay

@ JD Just saw CL ad down south of Scranton. 20 acres free. Claim its in good hay. If you guys don't have to pay rent God bless ya but take care of them folks. Guess it used to be t hat way here 20+ years ago till things changed. I know fert is expensive but just imagine that on top of 100+ acre or crop share. Ive actually switched to more covers. Red freedom been doin wonders on the old coc ground. Keeps my inputs down to >60pa most years plus has been restoring the level oforganic material in top 6 in. Good luck this coming year.


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## Dill

Thank you for this thread. I'm in the same situation with a few of my fields. I started my own hay operation about 5 years ago. And after getting a couple of these free fields back in shape, I've been pricing fertlizer, lime or wood ash.
I've never had a lease and now the wood ash company wants a lease before they will sell anything to me. I've always just operated on a hand shake, and these fields are the same, I'm saving the land owner 500 bucks in rotary mowing and they are happy to have the fields cut. But I'm not sure if I should approach for a lease even a free one. I think it would turn a couple of older ladies off.
One thing that helped me, is there aren't many hay producers around, and we all get along pretty well. And have decided not to poach off each other. We might trade a field every now and again, but its dicussed between us, not the landowner.


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## JD3430

Dill said:


> Thank you for this thread. I'm in the same situation with a few of my fields. I started my own hay operation about 5 years ago. And after getting a couple of these free fields back in shape, I've been pricing fertlizer, lime or wood ash.
> I've never had a lease and now the wood ash company wants a lease before they will sell anything to me. I've always just operated on a hand shake, and these fields are the same, I'm saving the land owner 500 bucks in rotary mowing and they are happy to have the fields cut. But I'm not sure if I should approach for a lease even a free one. I think it would turn a couple of older ladies off.
> One thing that helped me, is there aren't many hay producers around, and we all get along pretty well. And have decided not to poach off each other. We might trade a field every now and again, but its dicussed between us, not the landowner.


Where are you located? Sounds like my area......
Farming is something "********" do in my area. Not many in the business. Everyone seems like everyone around here works in the Wilmington banking centers or for DuPont. 
I was shocked to see my biggest field owner decided to pay for fertilizing. They were upset to see the soil results. Previous hay contractor mined the soil of nutrients something terrible. I just wanted to show them how little I had to start with. Super wealthy, but super generous people. I told them if they'd help get the soil backin shape, I would do my best to keep it that way, but did not possess the funds to get their soil back to where it should be. One other customer seems to like helping me with lime. The rest is on me. 
Hope it all pays off
Gotta find more people who will pay me for what good hay is worth!!!


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## slowzuki

They probably need something that gives them permission to be on the land.


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## CockrellHillFarms

(Around here) I was always taught and its still this way, lime is the cheapest fertilizer investment you can make. Remember though, I havent seem this mentioned that you dont want to put down a bunch of this stuff at once. It takes a few yrs for the lime to really pay off. It takes a lot of moisture to break it down and worth its way into the soil. So when you lime, if ur soil tests are calling for 4 tons of lime. Its not really 4 actual tons of lime. There's an equation that you use to figure what the actual amount of lime is per acre needed. I wouldnt put down more than 2 tons of "actual" lime at a time. Thats really the max around here. Then in a yr or two, sample it out again. And add more accordingly. Secondly, like some of these other guys are saying. As long as your "replacing" what fertilizer your taking away in hay, then thats good enough. Nitrogen (urea) really is the "push" you need to start with. That will blow the grass up right off the bat. The p & k : feeds the grass. It can be considered a long term goal instead of short term like nitrogen.


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## Dill

Well it looks like I'm going to be paying the higher per ton cost for lime. About 20/ton instead of 15/ton for wood ash, just because of the lease agreements. Non of the land owners have an issue with me spreading wood ash. In fact they are happy to see the land being used better. But they don't like being tied up with paperwork. I would have perfered the wood ash because I get some extra benefits from it as well. Short of acutal fertilizer options are limited around here. There aren't many dairy farms left and those who are don't sell manure. Plenty of horse manure around for free but hauling costs add up quick. One nice niche option was eggshells from a local plant but once that source got out there is now a waiting list.


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## askinner

Dill said:


> Non of the land owners have an issue with me spreading wood ash.


Please excuse my ignorance, but what if any issues are there with ash? It is unheard of here as fertilizer, and interested to know more about it?


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## Dill

Its quite common around here (New England area) , we have 2 bio-mass electric power plants locally. I am not aware of an issues with wood ash. I think the main issue now is the company that is marketing the ash. They are a large waste management company and are used to dealing with probelm susbstances. So they are putting lots of roadblocks in the sale to protect themselves. This isn't sludge or bio solids, its just wood ash.
I'm trying to cut and paste the anasliysis sheet, but its not working. Basically you get a PH fix, along with some potash and potasium. Aslo the big thing is its abosrbed a lot quicker than limestone.


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## CockrellHillFarms

Interesting.........never heard of wood ash. I guess I dont get it, whats wrong with lime? How is lime considered a chemical fertilizer?


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## rjmoses

My grandparents used wood ash to 1) make lye soap and 2) fertilize their garden.

Lye soap is a _little _rough on the skin, but it sure cleans!

Garden was always fertilized with wood ash and horse/cow manure. Always looked great!

Ralph


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