# A Parting Gift.



## Vol

From Growing TN.

Regards, Mike

http://growingtennessee.com/news/2017/01/natl-pork-producers-council-another-midnight-regulation-dumped-on-farmers-2017-01-20/?utm_source=Growing+Tennessee&utm_campaign=9dc12ef0df-growingtennessee-daily_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d75710df8e-9dc12ef0df-296641129


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## Uphayman

Mark it .......12 noon , no more gifts from O. God bless America


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## vhaby

Amen!


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## r82230

I was getting ready to take my wife out to lunch today and she says "I don't want to leave yet, I want to watch Trump's inauguration and speech". To which I said "What you have never watch an inauguration and speech for as long as you have been married (something like 37+ years to a sometimes fool, but different story)".

Her answer: "I hope he can do the stuff he has said and UNDO some of the ridiculous things that have been done to this country. I agree with everything he (Trump) says."

We went to lunch later than usual, I think I am bless with a good wife.  And tomorrow is a new (hopefully better) day,

Larry


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## Tim/South

My wife always votes, as do my children. It is a rule in this house.

For the first time ever my wife got into the election. She asked questions and began to show interest and understand politics to some extent.

She listens to Hannity and O'Riley for the first time.


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## RuttedField

I had to warm up to Trump.

I had some other favorites early on, but in a strange way the election system we have, as crazy as it is, shook out the lose chaff and we ended with what we did. Up to about 2 weeks before the election I was not so much voting for Trump as I was against Hillary and all she stands for, but slowly I began to realize that Trump was different...he IS NOT a politician, bought his own way to the top and has no favorites to play, so I ended up voting for him because I wanted him to win, and not just voking against Hilary.

Voting fear is a bad policy. I liked Trump's speech, it was teeming with hope and common sense. Naturally the Democrats hated it.

I DISLIKE OBAMA, don't get me wrong, but he could have been so much more. He was different, but he was so set on making a legacy that he failed at everything he did. The bible says "pride goeth before a fall", and for 8 years he thought he was God and could do anything. Now everything he accomplished is being wiped out...and beyond that, changes made because his abuse of power was so great it showed we cannot tolerate that as a nation. Than antiquities act of 1904 proved that. The abuse was so great, every acre he took is being returned and they are rescinding the act so that no one else can redo it in the future.

It would be like me stealing a neighbors field from you who normally hays it by lying to the landowner to get it. But as a farmer I do such a lousy job farming it that the landowner kicks me off the land, lets you back on, but is so upset writes you a lifetime lease to it. That doesn't just make me inefficient, it would make me a failure!

Obamacare

Farm Laws

National Monuments

*FAIL!*


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## stack em up

You can always tell a presidents true motives by the last things they push thru. Make me mad I voted for the waste of space in 2008. I have no intentions of becoming organic but it will only be a matter of time before the tree hugging shitheads try to push it for conventional production agriculture. Now I'm not condoning animal abuse, I'm probably one of the kindest people to animals, but what someone views as "sorting hogs" some other rainbow queer views as cruelty. I dare them to sort hogs peacefully and quietly.


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## luke strawwalker

stack em up said:


> You can always tell a presidents true motives by the last things they push thru. Make me mad I voted for the waste of space in 2008. I have no intentions of becoming organic but it will only be a matter of time before the tree hugging shitheads try to push it for conventional production agriculture. Now I'm not condoning animal abuse, I'm probably one of the kindest people to animals, but what someone views as "sorting hogs" some other rainbow queer views as cruelty. I dare them to sort hogs peacefully and quietly.


If they ever try it, they better get used to starvation, because half the guys will go broke and the other half will quit.

I've seen organic and for the most part its THE most expensive and difficult way to grow a MEDIOCRE crop (at best) that there is.

For the guys it works for (who've found the niche that works for them and they have put together a system that works FOR THEM in THEIR AREA AND CONDITIONS), more power to them. BUT if it's one thing I've learned in working for my BIL in northern Indiana, as compared to how we do things down in Texas, it's that there IS NO "one size fits all" ANYTHING in agriculture... we do things the way we do them for a REASON. People make changes, yes, but changes OVER TIME and NOT ALL AT ONCE, and they either keep the changes or switch back to what they were doing before and/or try something else, because what works for ONE guy in ONE place, may NOT work for someone else someWHERE else...

That's WAY too deep for these shallow-minded shitheads to understand, though...

Later! OL J R


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## RuttedField

The Humane Society of America had a cruelty to animals video of a dairy farm pushing around a dead cow with a bucket loader. It looked awful I grant you, but let me ask you this, how else do you move a 1200 pound dead Holstein? You don't drag it out of the barn by the back leg.


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## RuttedField

Mr. Strawwalker,

I am with you on that. I had heard a lot about Gabe Brown up in North Dakota and finally took 50 minutes out of my life to watch a video someone had showed me, and it was interesting.

A lot of the new fangled stuff he proposes we have done on this farm for several generations, but that is beside the point. A lot of what he said I agreed with, and like him I can prove the results, but then there was some other stuff that made me scratch my head in wonder, for starters having 2000 acres to graze on. I wish I had that many, man could I raise some sheep then. But then his sheer number of sides to his operation, sheep, cows, veggies, dogs, grains, etc. I am not sure how he keeps it all straight and which ones are profitable and which aren't. At the same time he bragged openly about making $14,000 on selling Border Collies which leads me to believe if he is touting up the profitability of dogs, he may not be making money on his other operations.

I don't know, I don't pretend to know the man, but do practice a lot of the same things he does and can make the same claims. Just sometimes you wonder if it truly is the way people farm, or if it is the book sales and speaking fees that are the profitable parts of what they do.

If it works for him I am glad, but I know there is NO WAY I could take his operation and do it on my farm...no way.


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## haybaler101

I want no part of organic farming, or even non-GMO farming. I have seen organic row crops, pathetic excuse for farming. I have worked nutritionally with organic dairies, easiest way to cut production in half. I love raising turkeys but I dread the day I would have to be antibiotic free. Let me be clear, we do not abuse antibiotics and VFD is followed to the letter, but turkeys get sick. I am on my eleventh flock and every single flock has broke with an E Coli infection between 6 and 10 weeks of age. Six days of oxytetracycline in the water stops it immediately with minimal death loss. The company I grow for has an average mortality of 12% per flock and my average is 10%. The other poultry company in the area is pushing their growers to be antibiotic free. Their mortalities run in the 20-30% range per flock. I might lose 10 birds per day out of 27,000 and their growers might carry out 200 in a day.


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## Bgriffin856

stack em up said:


> You can always tell a presidents true motives by the last things they push thru. Make me mad I voted for the waste of space in 2008. I have no intentions of becoming organic but it will only be a matter of time before the tree hugging shitheads try to push it for conventional production agriculture. Now I'm not condoning animal abuse, I'm probably one of the kindest people to animals, but what someone views as "sorting hogs" some other rainbow queer views as cruelty. I dare them to sort hogs peacefully and quietly.


Their excuse is they live in the city

There's your sign/ problem


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## mlappin

haybaler101 said:


> I want no part of organic farming, or even non-GMO farming. I have seen organic row crops, pathetic excuse for farming. I have worked nutritionally with organic dairies, easiest way to cut production in half. I love raising turkeys but I dread the day I would have to be antibiotic free. Let me be clear, we do not abuse antibiotics and VFD is followed to the letter, but turkeys get sick. I am on my eleventh flock and every single flock has broke with an E Coli infection between 6 and 10 weeks of age. Six days of oxytetracycline in the water stops it immediately with minimal death loss. The company I grow for has an average mortality of 12% per flock and my average is 10%. The other poultry company in the area is pushing their growers to be antibiotic free. Their mortalities run in the 20-30% range per flock. I might lose 10 birds per day out of 27,000 and their growers might carry out 200 in a day.


My buddy does pretty good with his organic dairy, mainly Jerseys on grass thru the summer. He wanted me to grow his organic hay when he started all this, didn't take long to decide to stick with what I know, just the extra paperwork alone killed it for me as I absolutely hate paperwork. Funny part is, I sell my non organic hay usually for the same price or more than he pays for organic hay from Wisconsin or Minnesota, that's per ton to be precise, the trucking eats him alive though. Which is why I'm sure he brings up once in a while about if I ever reconsidered going organic on the hay. Just not worth the extra headache to me.

Three years to get a new field certified organic, which during that time I could sell it as herbicide, pesticide and commercial fertilizer free but just can't actually call it organic, then maybe another 4 years left in it that I can actually call it organic and sell it to him for the same price as I'm already selling hay for, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I might bring up he's gonna have to pay a hell of a premium to make up for the extra aggravation.

Moving second/third cutting premium rounds for $80/bale and you come and get it, turning people away already as I have three main people buying it right now and every bale I have is spoken for. Basically breaks down to $200/ton with 800lb bales and I don't have to move each bale more than a hundred feet to load it.

The organic soybeans down the road were absolutely horrible the next town over, I actually stopped the one day to get a better look, really couldn't tell if anything but weeds were growing at 55 mph. Can't see the wheat doing any better as they already had a pretty good flush of weeds while planting it this fall.


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## RuttedField

Who even says it is really Organic? If you need to sleep try reading the 900 page National Organic Standards. If organic is so natural then why is there 900 pages of rules on it? Because its all about regulation and nothing more.

Did you know that if a farm makes less than $10,000 a year they can sell as organic without inspection?

Did you know if production drops on an organic farm non organic can be substituted?

Did you the Amish around here sell their produce as organic yet buy herbicide/pesticide at my fathers hardware store? (We asked the USDA about the last one and they said they can't inspect the Amish because they are a religious organization).

As for GMO's, I laugh. People get all worried about humans taking traits from one plant and putting it in another, when us sheep farmers have been doing the same thing with sheep for 9000 years and no seems to notice or even care. But it gets worse, up until the 1970's, these hippy-crunchy granola types who think the world was so great 40 years ago don't know that we used to soak our corn seed in Stricknine to kills the crows that ate the corn seed out in the fields after planting. I am not saying it was the right thing to do back then, but I would much rather eat GMO Corn then corn seed soaked in Stricknine.

But right now I am kind of jaded. I just explained to a woman they can get some great cover crop seed at their local Soil and Water Conservation district because it is formulated and blended for a particular region, to which she explained they had great variety but the seed came from...wait for it...Monsanto. How dare I suggest seed come from a place that supports...wait for it...Monsanto. It was a good thing the woman was online otherwise I might have slapped her. And you guys wonder why I have such respect for you. (see the thread "Surrounded by the Smart" as to what I mean.


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## RuttedField

One of the hardest products to produce organically is apples. It is because of the worms. Do you know the organic answer? Spray them with a fine liquid clay that coats the apples and keeps the worms at bay. This has to be done almost daily. Their words of advice is to wash the apples really good before consumption...the exact same directions for insecticide for non-organic apples. Even then organic apples are absolutely disgusting looking in the store.

And don't even get me started on heritage varieties. Have you ever seen the emergence percentages...its like half the field never germinated.


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## luke strawwalker

RuttedField said:


> Mr. Strawwalker,
> 
> I am with you on that. I had heard a lot about Gabe Brown up in North Dakota and finally took 50 minutes out of my life to watch a video someone had showed me, and it was interesting.
> 
> A lot of the new fangled stuff he proposes we have done on this farm for several generations, but that is beside the point. A lot of what he said I agreed with, and like him I can prove the results, but then there was some other stuff that made me scratch my head in wonder, for starters having 2000 acres to graze on. I wish I had that many, man could I raise some sheep then. But then his sheer number of sides to his operation, sheep, cows, veggies, dogs, grains, etc. I am not sure how he keeps it all straight and which ones are profitable and which aren't. At the same time he bragged openly about making $14,000 on selling Border Collies which leads me to believe if he is touting up the profitability of dogs, he may not be making money on his other operations.
> 
> I don't know, I don't pretend to know the man, but do practice a lot of the same things he does and can make the same claims. Just sometimes you wonder if it truly is the way people farm, or if it is the book sales and speaking fees that are the profitable parts of what they do.
> 
> If it works for him I am glad, but I know there is NO WAY I could take his operation and do it on my farm...no way.


Yeah, I've seen some of Gabe Brown's stuff... looks interesting. And you're right-- I think it's a LOT of the same stuff that people USED to do before the "Green revolution" of chemical fertilizers and pesticides and all that came along.

When we were row cropping years ago when my grandmother was still alive and I was running the farms for her, we were what you'd call "low input". She just flat wanted to keep costs to a minimum, which is fine, so long as you've got the yield AND PRICE to make money in the end... Heck even my seed/chemical dealer at the time (who had his own fertilizer plants, trucking company, seed/chemical/fertilizer dealership, cotton gin, and farmed as well) talked about the stupidity of some of these BTO's spending buckets of money chasing "beer joint yields" (just for bragging rights at the local watering holes). Course, times change and we gotta change with 'em, to some extent or other (and not always as the "industry leaders" and BTO's would have us change). When fertilizer went through the roof, seed and chemicals followed, diesel and parts were getting more expensive, and cotton was STILL selling for 60-70 cents a pound like it did when I was a kid in the early 70's, then the boll weevil thieves come along wanting $20 bucks an acre assessment (which just ate all the profit) we quit cotton and went to sorghum for a few years, then just switched to all cows. SO much easier and more profitable than row crops...

Thing is, what works great on ONE soil type or in ONE environment or ONE crop simply WON'T work EVERYWHERE... might work great here and there, but not *everywhere*. Might not work at all on different crops, or different soils, or different rainfall patterns, or weather/winter patterns, etc. etc. etc. Different guys do things differently, and sometimes what works for a guy "just up the road" won't work for another guy a short piece away, because they do things differently enough to foul up the program...

And yeah, when you start figuring in speakers fees, writing books, doing seminars, selling high-dollar dogs, etc. it really makes you start to wonder where the actual profitability is coming from...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

haybaler101 said:


> I want no part of organic farming, or even non-GMO farming. I have seen organic row crops, pathetic excuse for farming. I have worked nutritionally with organic dairies, easiest way to cut production in half. I love raising turkeys but I dread the day I would have to be antibiotic free. Let me be clear, we do not abuse antibiotics and VFD is followed to the letter, but turkeys get sick. I am on my eleventh flock and every single flock has broke with an E Coli infection between 6 and 10 weeks of age. Six days of oxytetracycline in the water stops it immediately with minimal death loss. The company I grow for has an average mortality of 12% per flock and my average is 10%. The other poultry company in the area is pushing their growers to be antibiotic free. Their mortalities run in the 20-30% range per flock. I might lose 10 birds per day out of 27,000 and their growers might carry out 200 in a day.


Exactly... it's all about TRADEOFFS...

I don't have a problem with folks that want to go organic-- good for them. If they can figure out how to make a buck with it, GO FOR IT! But *I'M* not interested in going that way.

Like you, I've seen a lot of it end up being the hardest, most expensive way to make a MEDIOCRE crop at best...

Same thing with all this "Identity preserved" livestock. Hey, if a guy found the niche and can make a buck off it, GREAT! GO for it, more power to 'em. But *I'm* not interested in doing that, and I don't want it shoved down my throat...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

mlappin said:


> My buddy does pretty good with his organic dairy, mainly Jerseys on grass thru the summer. He wanted me to grow his organic hay when he started all this, didn't take long to decide to stick with what I know, just the extra paperwork alone killed it for me as I absolutely hate paperwork. Funny part is, I sell my non organic hay usually for the same price or more than he pays for organic hay from Wisconsin or Minnesota, that's per ton to be precise, the trucking eats him alive though. Which is why I'm sure he brings up once in a while about if I ever reconsidered going organic on the hay. Just not worth the extra headache to me.
> 
> Three years to get a new field certified organic, which during that time I could sell it as herbicide, pesticide and commercial fertilizer free but just can't actually call it organic, then maybe another 4 years left in it that I can actually call it organic and sell it to him for the same price as I'm already selling hay for, just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I might bring up he's gonna have to pay a hell of a premium to make up for the extra aggravation.
> 
> Moving second/third cutting premium rounds for $80/bale and you come and get it, turning people away already as I have three main people buying it right now and every bale I have is spoken for. Basically breaks down to $200/ton with 800lb bales and I don't have to move each bale more than a hundred feet to load it.
> 
> The organic soybeans down the road were absolutely horrible the next town over, I actually stopped the one day to get a better look, really couldn't tell if anything but weeds were growing at 55 mph. Can't see the wheat doing any better as they already had a pretty good flush of weeds while planting it this fall.


Yep... I'm with you 100%...

Sounds like this dude would do better to rent some ground, get it organic certified, raise the hay crop, and have you custom cut and bale it for him. He could deal with the paperwork (already is for organic dairy) and you could do the work and get paid like the rest of the hay. Maybe he could just get you to "custom farm" the whole hay crop from planting to harvest on his rented ground and pay you for the hay.

Seems like he could find a way to make it work for the BOTH of you... bet that trucking bill DOES kill him and he could do a lot with what he saved to pay for rent/doing it locally...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

RuttedField said:


> Who even says it is really Organic? If you need to sleep try reading the 900 page National Organic Standards. If organic is so natural then why is there 900 pages of rules on it? Because its all about regulation and nothing more.
> 
> Did you know that if a farm makes less than $10,000 a year they can sell as organic without inspection?
> 
> Did you know if production drops on an organic farm non organic can be substituted?
> 
> Did you the Amish around here sell their produce as organic yet buy herbicide/pesticide at my fathers hardware store? (We asked the USDA about the last one and they said they can't inspect the Amish because they are a religious organization).
> 
> As for GMO's, I laugh. People get all worried about humans taking traits from one plant and putting it in another, when us sheep farmers have been doing the same thing with sheep for 9000 years and no seems to notice or even care. But it gets worse, up until the 1970's, these hippy-crunchy granola types who think the world was so great 40 years ago don't know that we used to soak our corn seed in Stricknine to kills the crows that ate the corn seed out in the fields after planting. I am not saying it was the right thing to do back then, but I would much rather eat GMO Corn then corn seed soaked in Stricknine.
> 
> But right now I am kind of jaded. I just explained to a woman they can get some great cover crop seed at their local Soil and Water Conservation district because it is formulated and blended for a particular region, to which she explained they had great variety but the seed came from...wait for it...Monsanto. How dare I suggest seed come from a place that supports...wait for it...Monsanto. It was a good thing the woman was online otherwise I might have slapped her. And you guys wonder why I have such respect for you. (see the thread "Surrounded by the Smart" as to what I mean.


Well, I'm not a huge fan of GMO's... BIG difference between selective breeding of sheep or selecting the best corn seed to plant next year, or hybridization techniques and such, and taking genetic material from COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SPECIES and implanting it in different organisms that could NEVER interbreed or share genetic material in nature. That's the fundamental difference IMHO. Maybe old fashioned, but the Bible speaks of like breeding like with like, "after their own kind He created them male and female", and other such things. Sorry but taking genes from a fish and putting them in a tomato, or genes from a microbe and putting it in corn, etc. etc. etc is VERY different from selecting the best ram and breeding it to the best ewes and keeping back the best lambs for future breeding stock. At least to me, anyway.

Now, I know it has its place, and if a guy doesn't have a problem with it and can make money with it, more power to him. My BIL grows GMO stuff and I don't have a problem planting, harvesting, or hauling it. I don't have a problem spraying pesticides on the stuff, either. Some people do, and if they don't want it, or want to grow something different or organic or whatever, that's their right... I don't have a problem with people wanting the stuff labeled, so they can make a CHOICE on whether to buy it or not. Seems the GMO people are the biggest ones opposed to labeling-- maybe because they KNOW they will lose *some* sales when people have the information and can make up their OWN minds instead of having to buy stuff "blindly"?? Seems the most likely reason to me...

I grew Bt cotton one year-- wasn't worth the additional expense, and I didn't like the Nazi "grower agreement" you're forced to sign to even get access... sign away all your rights just to get their product, become a serf on your own land. No thanks. In our area, our environment, with all the bugs we have, whatever the Bt gene saved by killing caterpillars the plant bugs or fleahoppers or whatever ate up instead, so what was the point in the additional expense and signing your rights away?? BUT, in other areas, I could see where it would be a HUGE benefit. For other guys "just up the road a piece" who spray for plant bugs and fleahoppers and crap twice a week all season, the Bt is just the 'icing on the cake' to keep the worms from eating bolls before the next application, or a good alternative to pyrethroids... whatever. For ME it wasn't worth the time and expense. We looked at Roundup Ready cotton, but at the time, the RR1 gene had a lot of drawbacks... like you couldn't spray after the fourth true leaf, which pretty much limited Roundup applications to the first month after planting... BIG WOOP! Not a problem for us as our tillage/pre-emerge applications were doing a good job with weeds in that time frame-- what we WERE having trouble with was late-emerging waterhemp and redroot pigweed and late season crabgrass and morningglory vines after layby... at which point Roundup couldn't be applied anyway. Plus, in our area, it's not uncommon for the field to get standing water from prolonged heavy rains that keep one out of the field from planting until the crop is a month old or so ANYWAY, by which time the Roundup application window would have COMPLETELY closed... and folks making applications of Roundup after the fourth true leaf were getting a lot of harvest problems from "hook shaped bolls" that wouldn't open properly and thus were unharvestable. So, we never bothered with it.

BIL LOVES his RR *everything* (corn and beans). Plants wall to wall RR corn and beans, and "Plenish" GMO oil-producing beans. Hey, it's working for him and making him money, more power to him. It has it's place...

Later! OL J R


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## RuttedField

I understand what you are saying, but here round up ready corn has really changed things for the better environmentally. Did I just say that...yep sure did, and while the tree huggers hate it, they don't understand where we came from.

Before round up ready corn we use to till the ever living crap out of the soil. Spread manure, then till again. Then plant (using synthetic fertilizer too). Then we would wait, and when the corn was "knee high at 4th of July", we would get out the cultivator and cultivate the weeds. The problem was it was July, the hottest, dries time of year and we sent our thin soil into the air to be blown off the face of the earth, and we fractured the soil drying it out when we needed moisture the most. Then we harvested the corn and plowed under the stalks and disked the field before letting it sit for winter.

Round up ready corn enabled us to get really good emergence with minimal till. The plow rusted, the disc ran over the field once or twice and that was it, the field was planted (with synthetic fertilizer and manure granted), but the cultivator rusted on the rock wall too, and then we harvested. Because of minimal till (we can't no till farm here) we did not have to plow or disc in the fall. It really saved a lot of wind erosion, water erosion and a whole lot of diesel fuel. We had the extra cost of spraying, BUT when you are spraying 90 feet paths, fuel consumption is not high.

Biblically I don't have an issue with GMO either. I understand what it says about its own kind, but where do you draw the line? I am sure this computer I am typing on is powered in part by nuclear fission, something that does not occur in nature unto its own kind, but I am not about to toss out mankind's manipulation of physics and chemical reactions. If Monsanto can figure out that dandelions spread a toxin naturally that kills the grass around it until it gets established, and they cross it with maize; yeah it would not happen on its own, but neither would most stuff we use or consume. And interestingly enough, dandelions are quite tasty and so is corn.

I am not arguing with you, so if it appears I am, I apologize. I enjoy your comments immensely and I am sure if we were at a bar, I would be buy you a beer and we would have an interesting...not angry conversation. I hope I am coming across that way. If I am not, and seem argumentative, tell me and I will say no more as I don't want to cause you anger. We are both next-generational farmers and have a lot in common. I understand where you are coming from.


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## r82230

Was just watching a Dr Pol re-run last night, lady was raising 'organic' pigs. One pig had a nasty infection on it's back that was getting bigger worse by the day. Vet, basically ask her if what was more important, having an organic dead pig (with a slow death) or a health live non-organic pig, while aggressively using antibiotics to cure pig's infection? She now has a non-organic pig (I wonder if it can contaminate the other pigs now or not?).

Once the old rubber hits the road (or the cost to your pocket book), seems you can be maybe 'semi-organic'. 

Larry


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## luke strawwalker

RuttedField said:


> I understand what you are saying, but here round up ready corn has really changed things for the better environmentally. Did I just say that...yep sure did, and while the tree huggers hate it, they don't understand where we came from.
> 
> Before round up ready corn we use to till the ever living crap out of the soil. Spread manure, then till again. Then plant (using synthetic fertilizer too). Then we would wait, and when the corn was "knee high at 4th of July", we would get out the cultivator and cultivate the weeds. The problem was it was July, the hottest, dries time of year and we sent our thin soil into the air to be blown off the face of the earth, and we fractured the soil drying it out when we needed moisture the most. Then we harvested the corn and plowed under the stalks and disked the field before letting it sit for winter.
> 
> Round up ready corn enabled us to get really good emergence with minimal till. The plow rusted, the disc ran over the field once or twice and that was it, the field was planted (with synthetic fertilizer and manure granted), but the cultivator rusted on the rock wall too, and then we harvested. Because of minimal till (we can't no till farm here) we did not have to plow or disc in the fall. It really saved a lot of wind erosion, water erosion and a whole lot of diesel fuel. We had the extra cost of spraying, BUT when you are spraying 90 feet paths, fuel consumption is not high.
> 
> Biblically I don't have an issue with GMO either. I understand what it says about its own kind, but where do you draw the line? I am sure this computer I am typing on is powered in part by nuclear fission, something that does not occur in nature unto its own kind, but I am not about to toss out mankind's manipulation of physics and chemical reactions. If Monsanto can figure out that dandelions spread a toxin naturally that kills the grass around it until it gets established, and they cross it with maize; yeah it would not happen on its own, but neither would most stuff we use or consume. And interestingly enough, dandelions are quite tasty and so is corn.
> 
> I am not arguing with you, so if it appears I am, I apologize. I enjoy your comments immensely and I am sure if we were at a bar, I would be buy you a beer and we would have an interesting...not angry conversation. I hope I am coming across that way. If I am not, and seem argumentative, tell me and I will say no more as I don't want to cause you anger. We are both next-generational farmers and have a lot in common. I understand where you are coming from.


Hey, not a problem AT ALL! I respect your opinion and agree with it to an extent, just a matter of degrees. Like I said, MOST things in life aren't as simple as the appear on the surface. I've seen how the RR corn works for my BIL, and I know most of the guys around here are growing stacked varieties... heck I quit row cropping in the early 2000's and the stuff we had back then isn't as good as the newer traits they have now. If I were row cropping I'd probably be planting Liberty Link or something like that myself. If it's a good fit for you, run with it!

I've read that there's been some "unanticipated" interactions and stuff caused by GMO's interacting with other species in the environment, and unexpected changes in the plants themselves. One big "for instance" that comes to mind is the fact that Bt corn stalks have been proven to be much more damaging to tires than non-Bt corn stalks... I read some stuff a few years ago about protein interactions in RR crops versus non RR crops, but I can't recall all the details right this moment. Basically they said there were "no other changes" to the plant EXCEPT the plant was capable of metabolizing Roundup, while they've actually detected other physiological and chemical changes within the plant itself that was UNANTICIPATED. The whole "jumping species" thing is of concern as well, which is why you don't see ANY genetically engineered grain sorghum-- it's too closely related to johnsongrass, and NOBODY wants to see RR johnsongrass! (Even me despite the fact that I like johnsongrass hay... just don't ever get it in your crop fields!) ANYWAY, I think a lot of these scientists tend to be a little too big for their britches and do stuff without REALLY understanding what could possibly happen. I think sooner or later something like that will end up biting us in the butt bigtime.

Until then, hey, if it's legal in your area and you can make a buck and do a better job using it, more power to ya... I don't give my BIL crap for using GMO's... up there it's a given (heck here for the most part it's a given) but I don't give people a hard time for going organic, either... although I DID get a laugh when I saw "organic" duck eggs at the farmer's market for $8 a dozen! LOL Told my BIL I've been having a $1.50 breakfast at his place all during harvest (I usually cook myself two duck eggs with salt, pepper, and dill weed for breakfast every morning-- they have a mess of laying hens and one laying duck out there, and I like the bigger and tastier duck eggs... LOL

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

r82230 said:


> Was just watching a Dr Pol re-run last night, lady was raising 'organic' pigs. One pig had a nasty infection on it's back that was getting bigger worse by the day. Vet, basically ask her if what was more important, having an organic dead pig (with a slow death) or a health live non-organic pig, while aggressively using antibiotics to cure pig's infection? She now has a non-organic pig (I wonder if it can contaminate the other pigs now or not?).
> 
> Once the old rubber hits the road (or the cost to your pocket book), seems you can be maybe 'semi-organic'.
> 
> Larry


Hmmm... better "segregate" the manure from that hog until the withdrawal period of the antibiotic has passed... if it ends up in the manure pit and spread on the field, that could have antibiotic residue put onto the organic fields... LOL

Seriously it COULD be an issue, if she's trying to maintain organic certification... (which is the biggest rip-off there is IMHO... I myself would NEVER go through all that rigamarole, even though we produce our cattle with as little/no antibiotics or chemicals as possible... just too much expense and hassle for too little return, just to make the 'certifiers' rich, that's all... moneymaking scheme for the gubmint, that's all). Course, like I said before, if'n somebody can make a buck doing it, well, more power to 'em...

Later! OL J R


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## RuttedField

This sounds like television drama.

Under the National Organic Standards, it is *actually against NOS rules NOT to treat animal with antibiotics*. This falls under humane care of livestock, but just is basic common sense. It i also the reason a lot of dairy farmers around me refuse to get into organic farming. Because a cows life can be 4 years or longer, and the probability of having that cow requiring antibiotic is pretty high. That means they have 2 choices:

1) Run two dairy herds, organic and non-organic

2) Ship every cow that gets antibiotics

This is what gets my dander up, if a farm losses production by 15% (I think) they can actually substitute non-organic livestock to make up the difference. That makes you feel some good when you are paying twice as much money for the good stuff only to find out it could be all the same...


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## RuttedField

Strawalker, glad you weren't upset. But since I don't drink, I won't buy you that beer after all, but will give you 20 dozen duck eggs if you want.

It is funny on those duck eggs, around here I could easily market them as "free range, naturally fertilized, organic duck eggs" and get a pretty penny for them. Nahh, not me, I am a sheep farmer, we have ducks and chickens for our own use and give all our excess eggs away to charity.

Around here duck eggs go higher than chicken eggs, about $4.50 a dozen. Crazy huh?


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## 2ndWindfarm

luke strawwalker said:


> Hmmm.... (which is the biggest rip-off there is IMHO... I myself would NEVER go through all that rigamarole, even though we produce our cattle with as little/no antibiotics or chemicals as possible... just too much expense and hassle for too little return, just to make the 'certifiers' rich, that's all... moneymaking scheme for the gubmint, that's all). Course, like I said before, if'n somebody can make a buck doing it, well, more power to 'em...
> 
> Later! OL J R


Spot on, there! Wife and I have a "high tunnel - hot house" 35'x60' and 12'x16' gas-heated green house. High tunnels are the biggest Ag related development currently in Alaska. They're the only way to realistically grow lower-latitude fruit and vegetable crops.
Nonetheless, several growers tried to "chase" that organic certification... Had to transport and board the inspectors-certifiers (several times over 2-years) as well as pay the associated fees. Crazy expensive! Selling your produce at the area Farmers Markets would take you 10 years to break even!
Nah... Ain't gonna happen at our place.


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