# Beating the system



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I've been following the threads on BTO's, Right to Maintain, etc., and I see a lot of thoughts and ideas and I'm going to offer a story that may help other's find a way to beat the system.

I've lived my life finding ways to beat the "system". The system is any set of rules, regulations, or implied or explicit pressures that others try to impose on me to make me do things I don't, in good conscience, feel are right, moral, or for my own best interests.

To be clear, I don't have a problem paying taxes...when I get to say how those taxes get used. Most of my property taxes, about 80%, go to our local public school system. The high school has about 50 students in it. (It is one of five in Illinois that operates in the black!) I usually have 1-2 kids working for me and they are smart, hard-working kids (they need supervision and education of course, but that's part of any employer's responsibility). I am happy to pay those taxes that support our school system.

But, I do have a problem paying State and Federal taxes. So, I do everything possible to LEGALLY and MORALLY avoid paying those taxes. As an example, Illinois' gas tax is 20 cents higher than Missouri's, so I plan my trips to buy all my gas across the river.

I learned a lot in high school. But, usually not the stuff they wanted me to learn, like readin', writin', 'rithmetic. Remember: I'm a country boy at heart.

However, I did learn how to beat the system without breaking the rules.

Most people try to beat the system by breaking the rules. And that usually gets them into trouble. Sometimes it even gets them into jail.

I was already in jail (I was sent to a boarding high school).

First week in school, I was signed up for gym class. Some people call it physical education. Ha!

Now gym class was mandated by Missouri state law. Everybody, no exceptions, had to get physically educated. So, there I am, in gym class.

Okay, so far. Class ends, we all have to strip down to our birthday suits and take a shower-as a group! Twenty some-odd 13 year old boys, at the edge of puberty, standing around *naked* together!

No way! No friggin' way is this country boy going to do that again. Uh-unh, no sir-ree-bob! Ain't happening!

So out comes the rule book, out comes the thinking cap. How to beat the system?

Turns out the fine print had an escape clause.

Seems that if a student took a full class load, six classes at that time, and was in an organized activity, like band, the physical education requirement could be waived.

Next morning, I'm at the registrar's office doing a class change. "Yes, I want to take Latin" and "Yes, I want take band" and "Oh, I'm so sorry I have to drop gym class". Bingo! Full class load, no gym class. Four years--never took another gym class.

Learned that if I knew the rules better than the rule writers, I could beat any system that existed.

Maybe I should have been a politician? Naah!

Ralph


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

You could have been a lawyer!


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

slowzuki said:


> You could have been a lawyer!


Nahh! I'm too honest, have too much integrity and respect, don't lie worth a damn and don't like all the paperwork.

But, I have studied enough law to know how to beat the legal system.

Ralph


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

You don't enjoy the roads, public services, emergency response, National Guard, and other services your state and federal tax provide?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Hayjosh said:


> You don't enjoy the roads, public services, emergency response, National Guard, and other services your state and federal tax provide?


We have no Federal and only one state highway in my county (about 15 miles). Our roads, EMT and fire dept's are funded out of our property taxes with a smidgen of support from the state--when they pay. The state of Illinois owes our school district something on the order of $1.2 million in taxes that have been collected for the purposes of education but never paid out.

I am satisfied to pay for services rendered, but unhappy to be taken for a ride!

I will pay for national defense, but not $600 for a hammer that can be bought at Ace hardware. I will pay for family assistance but do not want that money spent on junk food, cigarettes or illegal drugs. I will pay for roads but not 20 cents a gallon more in taxes for potholes.

I do "enjoy" the services of the state-operated free ferry (when it runs) but do not "enjoy" waiting behind a hundred cars because the ferry is operating in "fuel conservation mode". But, most of the time, I either drive around or take the toll ferry to get out of the county because the "free" service is just to doggone expensive.

I take very strong exception to the way most government business is done, especially the lyin', cheatin' and stealin' that is fostered by our politicians. I know I am jaded because I live in Illinois and spent 30+ years in Chicago.

But, if you "enjoy" those services, please feel free to pay more--I won't stop you.

Rant over. I think maybe you hit a hot button of mine when you used the word "enjoy".

Ralph


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

Ralph,

Very well put.

Agreed.

Stuart


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> You don't enjoy the roads, public services, emergency response, National Guard, and other services your state and federal tax provide?


Oh, don't get me started. In PA, we have one of the highest gasoline taxes in the country and our roads, bridges and traffic infrastructure is nothing short of awful.
I mean its so bad, that you have to be very careful hauling tippy hay loads. We have state roads that have shoulders falling off sometimes 2 feet from the center to the shoulder.
We have roads with no visible striping, missing road signs and potholes that if not avoided, could cause damage to cars, trucks and trailers.
Our esteemed former "republican" governor enacted a huge increase in the gas tax and even though I travel PA roads extensively, I've seen few improvements, except a few bike trails.
Now you wont believe this, but even after 2 property tax appeals, my wife and I pay $13,000/yr in property taxes. I live on a 3 acre lot at the end of a 3/4 mile private lane and receive virtually ZERO township services.
People down the road living in same township get snowplowing, branch/leaf pickup, yet none of us on the private lane get no tax break because we arent given any of these services. However, I am still required to pump my septic system every 2 years, even if its not needed, or I am fined and live by all the laws of the township.
My only hope is to move to a 10+ acre "farm" to get a tax shelter on the land (must be open farmland, must prove farm income). Everyone else is looking for that, too, so even small 10 acre farms are a small fortune to buy, so the "tax shelter" saving is just spent on a larger mortgage. But at least I'm creating welth. Tax creates zero wealth.
Emergency response: I have no "local" police, just the PA state police. Closest barracks is 20 minutes away. I have an alarm system (came with my home when I bought it). It has a carbon monoxide detector that automagically alerts the authorities. It went off of course at 3 AM last year and my VOLUNTEER fire company showed up ready to take an axe to my front door if I didnt answer it in like 30 seconds arrived within 5 minutes
We let them in and they walked around with their "sniffer" which detected NOTHING. We thanked them for their service, asked for a donation envelope and they left. Went back to bed. A few minutes later, the PA state police knocked on the door. The officer acted like it was all a big pain in his ass and left. Lord help us if we really need the police. Thats why I keep several guns around and have my conceal carry permit.
I've never seen a National Guardsman.
One of the big uses of "local taxes" that really pisses people off in my area is the purchasing of "open space" from failing farms. The townships feel the comendable need to preserve open space, but at the expense of the taxpayer. To give you the idea of the scope of the waste on these purchases, we have 3 parks within 1/10th of a mile from each other. All are the same theme: A small gravel parking lot, a plaque at the head of the trail and a complimentary "walking trail". They are duplicitous and wasteful use of tax money.
I mean how many walking trails does a township need compressed into one small area? Thats not the "highest and best use" of land!
I love the area in which I live. I have all my customers here right nearby, so I'm kinda stuck. My wife and I have resorted to writing personal letters to landowners who have tax sheltered property offering to buy when tehyre ready to sell, with little success, but we keep trying.

So to answer your question, my roads are terrible, my services are minimal, I have little police service, I pay the same on a private road in taxes ad my neighbors on public raods, yet recieve no services. All the time, my healthy tax bill is used in part to keep buying expensive land and turn it into a bunch of underused over built walking trails and bark parks with narry a car or 2 parked in them at any given time.
I DO get a good quality school full of liberal teacher indoctrination, but the school gets top 1% in the state rankings, so the graduates get into good colleges and the sports programs are very good.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

So are you saying the National Guard (or the military) doesn't exist since you've never seen them, and therefore not worthy of tax funds? I get the dissatisfaction with the way money is handled within the government. I'm not really a fan of paying for golf trips to Florida every weekend either, or paying for a $15 billion wall (that we were promised we wouldn't pay for) that you can just dig under or climb over. But at the end of the day, we'd be in a pretty sorry state if our great country didn't have its money to do its thing. Hopefully your roads will get improved with Trump's infrastructure push...which is paid for by taxes. We have horrible roads in Michigan as well. One road I have to take is so bad that the chain on the baler chute rattled out and the chute fell down and was dragging on the road...and that was only from going 16 mph. Michigan has 11,000 lakes, but we say most of them are just potholes that filled up with water. Our governor raised our gas tax to improve roads, but then most of it ended up going into a state 'rainy day' fund.

I am glad for the services provided to me...interstate highways, plowed roads, our law enforcement and firefighters, our troops keeping the enemy busy over there rather than here, state and national parks, safe transportation, and the list goes on. Even if the local or state police or firefighters aren't doing something for ME, they're doing something for somebody out there and for that I'm glad. Police departments and fire departments--even if they're volunteer are still funded by tax money and still get Federal grants...which are paid for by taxes. For that matter, there are so many local government entities which benefit from Federal grants. Additionally, my wife and I are trying to adopt a child right now. So much of that is paid for by the state government as well and for that I'm grateful, not to mention the services provided for these kids' well-being and to try to get them into forever families.

So at the end of the day, I make my hay to deduct what I can from my tax liability and then suck it up and pay my taxes. It's a painful form of patriotism.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> So are you saying the National Guard (or the military) doesn't exist since you've never seen them, and therefore not worthy of tax funds? I get the dissatisfaction with the way money is handled within the government. I'm not really a fan of paying for golf trips to Florida every weekend either, or paying for a $15 billion wall (that we were promised we wouldn't pay for) that you can just dig under or climb over. But at the end of the day, we'd be in a pretty sorry state if our great country didn't have its money to do its thing. Hopefully your roads will get improved with Trump's infrastructure push...which is paid for by taxes. We have horrible roads in Michigan as well. One road I have to take is so bad that the chain on the baler chute rattled out and the chute fell down and was dragging on the road...and that was only from going 16 mph. Michigan has 11,000 lakes, but we say most of them are just potholes that filled up with water. Our governor raised our gas tax to improve roads, but then most of it ended up going into a state 'rainy day' fund.
> 
> I am glad for the services provided to me...interstate highways, plowed roads, our law enforcement and firefighters, our troops keeping the enemy busy over there rather than here, state and national parks, safe transportation, and the list goes on. Even if the local or state police or firefighters aren't doing something for ME, they're doing something for somebody out there and for that I'm glad. Police departments and fire departments--even if they're volunteer are still funded by tax money and still get Federal grants...which are paid for by taxes. For that matter, there are so many local government entities which benefit from Federal grants. Additionally, my wife and I are trying to adopt a child right now. So much of that is paid for by the state government as well and for that I'm grateful, not to mention the services provided for these kids' well-being and to try to get them into forever families.
> 
> So at the end of the day, I make my hay to deduct what I can from my tax liability and then suck it up and pay my taxes. It's a painful form of patriotism.


I didnt say they didnt exist....of course they do

And as each year goes by that you get older, you get a little more pissed off when you see clowns like Barrack Obama spend 10 trillion dollars more than all previous presidents combined and our country is more run down, our military is depleted but Washington DC looks like a modern form of Rome. Where government employees get guaranteed raises even with poor performance or breaking the law, getting breast implants with taxpayer money, all the while doing a shitty job, then get a guaranteed pension for life.
GIVE ME A F'ING BREAK!

Just wait and see.....the years of waste will begin to get to you and you'll be disgusted at what virtually all our governments waste. Free abortions, free phones, free shelter, free food, free drugs and on and on. Meanwhile, most of us here are living year to year hoping it gets better. Paying retail for everything and selling our product at wholesale. Yes it pisses me off to see our government use its power to bully defenseless people.
I have absolutely ZERO doubt that a private business could do the same thing our governments could do with only 25% of the money stolen from us in excess taxes. ZERO doubt.

It sickens me. What we have, and what we could actually have with the money our government spends is insanity.
$250,000 taxpayer money spent on the mating habits of sunfish?
Millions spent on whether Neil Armstrong said One step for man or mankind or whatever??
It's a mental disease what they allow to be wasted and millions of people are just scraping by...

Happy my roads are plowed?????? Are you friggin kidding me?
I'm sorry, but thats a joke. My roads cant be plowed because theyre too un-even and bumpy to be plowed LOL. For what I pay in taxes my roads better be plowed...and we should have a responsible government that spends our money like it was they that earned, not wasted!! My roads should look like brand new Autobahns for what I'm taxed!

I dont want to "suck it up" anymore. I want drastic and lasting change. I want government cut back by like 50%. I want my taxes lowered and I want responsible people handling taxpayer money to start over and spend my money responsibly.

Of course itll never happen....and I dont have to be happy about it!


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## Anonsky's Hay Service (Feb 1, 2017)

I feel that some people here mean well, but they're being fleeced. Almost every time a new tax is introduced its ALWAYS for the roads and the schools. If some lowly debt serfs rally against paying 40%+ of their income to the powers that be, the news runs stories about how this will impact education and all of a sudden there wont be money for infrastructure, even if there wasnt any there before.

The reality is that roughly half of our federal budget goes to Social Security and Unemployment plus "Medicare & Health". Its giving back to the people who paid into it, and giving the rest to those who (almost exclusively) contributed nothing. At YOUR expense. Thats right, you worked out in the sun earning money so someone else can sit in the projects watching TV. It is true that somewhere in there it probably did benefit a handful of good people in need, but lets be realistic here and look at the big picture.

The reality is that the entity you're paying is actively spying on you, trying hard to remove and shred as many of your God-given rights as humanly possible while they bring in hordes of "minorities" slash "new voters" to further their "progress" (this part might or might not have been temporarily suspended for a few years on a federal level, we can only hope) and while they actively mock your traditional values and morals and every aspect of the society and culture that our forefathers created for us. They take everything we will give them and then some. They hate our guts and care nothing about you or I.

If you criticize this, then its a question of "I guess you dont like roads". The true issue is never left versus right. Its state, versus you.

If you think I sound insane, thats okay. If this sounds like a lot, it isnt. Just wait until you read up on the dollar and find out our money is backed by nothing except thin air, and most of it doesn't even exist physically, its only numbers on a screen somewhere.

Edit: I should clarify that I'm not inherently against paying taxes, especially state and local ones. Its only when things are misused, bloated, and wasted that this becomes an issue for me. Same with armed forces.

Pay as little as possible, IMHO.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

"Painful form of Patriotism to pay taxes"?
I'll tell you what's patriotism, its to question where every tax dollar goes and demand accountability!and to resist paying excessive taxes especially when billions and billions of the money is going to questionable places.
THATS patriotic.


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## Anonsky's Hay Service (Feb 1, 2017)

JD3430 said:


> "Painful form of Patriotism to pay taxes"?
> I'll tell you what's patriotism, its to question where every tax dollar goes and demand accountability!and to resist paying excessive taxes especially when billions and billions of the money is going to questionable places.
> THATS patriotic.


I like your post. Here, have some nice music to listen to:


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

Simply put, when you consider the tax and medical burden, tax paying American citizens are strapped with, compared to the rest of the world. Our everyday lives should be a 5 Star luxury hotel experience.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> "Painful form of Patriotism to pay taxes"?
> I'll tell you what's patriotism, its to question where every tax dollar goes and demand accountability!and to resist paying excessive taxes especially when billions and billions of the money is going to questionable places.
> THATS patriotic.


Completely true as well!


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Boy, I sure must've hit some nerves that I didn't mean to when I started this topic.

My point was that we are all smart enough to win the game if we know what the game is and what the rules are.

Our government agencies are out of control for the most part because:

1) They are too big to be watched effectively.

2) There is too much money at play.

3) The rule makers always leave loop holes for themselves.

4) The rule makers treat themselves as the elite, the privilege.

5) The rule makers keep us uneducated and distracted to prevent us from seeing what is really going on.

6) The rule makers use our natural tendencies, beliefs and prejudices to divide us, to get us fighting among ourselves instead of fighting them.

There's probably more but it's early and I haven't had time to think this through.

My original point was that we can't beat the system as a group, but individually each of us can beat the system as it applies to us. And we can do that without sacrificing our moral, legal, or ethical principles.

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeah Ralph you did miss one.
"Laws are for little people"

Hillary?


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## IHCman (Aug 27, 2011)

ozarkian said:


> Simply put, when you consider the tax and medical burden, tax paying American citizens are strapped with, compared to the rest of the world. Our everyday lives should be a 5 Star luxury hotel experience.


When I see a list of the foreign aid we give other countries, some that stab us in the back by supporting terrorists, it makes me think our govt could give each of us 1 million dollars in the entire USA instead. Its mind blowing how much and how stupidly our govt gives money away.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

IHCman said:


> When I see a list of the foreign aid we give other countries, some that stab us in the back by supporting terrorists, it makes me think our govt could give each of us 1 million dollars in the entire USA instead. Its mind blowing how much and how stupidly our govt gives money away.


Yes sir. Obama may have given Iran alone as much as 33 billion dollars!
That's enough to give every American taxpayer a check for $330.
Imagine if you added up all the other economic aid given to all the other nations that turn around and trash us or thrown rocks at us?
I bet you'd be talking about $1,000 per taxpayer every year for life.
That's a difference maker for a lot of people.

I like what Trump is saying about making these uber-liberal European countries paying more towards NATO, too. That could save our taxpayers BILLIONS.


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