# Thoughts on cow hay



## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

I have 15 acres of good coastal baling for horses. I have about 20 acres of crop land was thinking about options for annual on it for cows. Looking for any recommendation or thoughts on cow hay. Would want to bale it in round bales with net on it and not stored under shelter. Know not the best but don't think would have shelter for new all it would produce.

We do not have any dairy in our area.

A second question here is how much does a mower conditioner with tedder, speed up hay drying compared to mower and tedder only.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

How can 35 acres in hay be profitable? Seems for 35 acres in what I assume by your handle is in South Carolina? Wouldnt fruit trees or a crop of the sort with higher income per acre pencil out better?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

StxPecans said:


> How can 35 acres in hay be profitable? Seems for 35 acres in what I assume by your handle is in South Carolina? Wouldnt fruit trees or a crop of the sort with higher income per acre pencil out better?


I'll take it one further.....if 35 acres can't make it happen, what makes you think that 200 would 
There's a lot of things that would pencil out better, letting it sit holding the earth together probably is the most profitable, but not nearly as fun......

So what's the question Kat about the cow hay......
I have one field that is "cow hay" but it's only because it has copious amounts of Bahai and several different Bermudas, not worth remediation.....
Mower conditioner does speed it up, but not by leaps and bounds.......


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> There's a lot of things that would pencil out better,


Like not farming. But somebody has to do it.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Your cows or other folks? Here if you don't have dry storage and feeding cattle, you wrap it for balage. Then they can cut and bale the same day.

Here mower conditioner and tedder cut time to do dry hay roughly in 1/2. 2-3 days drying with, 4-6 without.



Palmettokat said:


> I have 15 acres of good coastal baling for horses. I have about 20 acres of crop land was thinking about options for annual on it for cows. Looking for any recommendation or thoughts on cow hay. Would want to bale it in round bales with net on it and not stored under shelter. Know not the best but don't think would have shelter for new all it would produce.
> 
> We do not have any dairy in our area.
> 
> A second question here is how much does a mower conditioner with tedder, speed up hay drying compared to mower and tedder only.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

I understand better uses of the land than hay. The way to make the most is by far planting houses on it. For annual income we could easy put mobile home lots on it and maybe four per acre at $200 per lot for rent of land that would be $800 per acre with us having to run water lines (have public water) and install septic tank for each lot. Should recoup investment within two years, three max. Work load may be about same as hay, spraying for weeds and mowing the yards. Okay, little more often mowing but much less cost in chemicals and nitrogen.

This has been farm land in my wife's family for over a 100 years and my desire is to keep it as working "profitable" farm as long as possible, if possible. I am 65 and not looking for labor intense business so that limits some options such as fruit trees. Our area does have fair amount of peach trees and use to have good bit of pecan trees here but not as popular now.

Bumped into a friend today who raises cows and his own hay and he told me, forget cow hay. We have a local water and sewer company who has many hundred of acres of hay and selling round bales of coastal for $35 each.

Right now looking for any options to consider, depending on how our square bales sell this winter may be wanting to devote more to horse hay.

Thanks for each thought.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I know this goes agianst the grain so to speak as this forum goes. But cow hay bringing 50$ a bale at 12 bales an acre a year is 600$ an acre, to produce that much and fertilize it to the point that your are not mining your land hard to come out ahead. Not sure of your climate but pick your own fruit would be more income. If you could grow peaches, plums, apples, blackberries and what ever else. Kind of a mix of farming/agriturism


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Palmettokat said:


> I have 15 acres of good coastal baling for horses. I have about 20 acres of crop land was thinking about options for annual on it for cows. Looking for any recommendation or thoughts on cow hay. Would want to bale it in round bales with net on it and not stored under shelter. Know not the best but don't think would have shelter for new all it would produce.
> 
> We do not have any dairy in our area.
> 
> A second question here is how much does a mower conditioner with tedder, speed up hay drying compared to mower and tedder only.


I store my string-wrapped big bales outside on wooden pallets.(big bales are too hard on my plastic pallets) and cover them with tarps. I let them sweat before covering; if they get rained-on in the mean time, so be it; I wait til they're good to go before tarping them.

I buy used hopper-bottom semi trailer tarps at local joint that makes new ones. One tarp covers 8 bales (I stack with a few inches between the bales.) and I was paying $5 per tarp, went up to 10$ per tarp; last ones I bought were up to $20 tarp, but they are heavy and last for years.

Conditioner speeds up by drying my a factor...how many days is hard to say...depend on how long it would have taken WITHOUT the conditioner. Off-the-cuff guess is that conditioner cuts dry time by 1/4-1/3. I would speculate that the tedding does as much good as conditioning.

I like to have plenty of tools in my belt for making dry hay...cut high, condition, recondition, ted, etc.

Mark

...Like you, I could make more per acre doing other stuff, but I do what I WANT to do. Last thing I want to do is start growing apple trees and strawberries and having to deal with loads of people in their Dodge Caravans with their snotnosed brats mad that I don't take food stamps. I have this place 'cuz THAT'S how I want to live my life


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

You could try a lespedeza variety but, that would mean more squares. Since you have a horse market already established, that would be a way to offer some variety. If you did go that route, a mower conditioner would be a plus.

Another group to target would be goat farmers/hobby folks. The ones around here prefer square bales because they have had goats smothered in round bales. They tell me the goats will eat the middle out of a round bale and then the bale collapses in on them.

Like others have said, it goes back to what you want to do.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

One thing you will find, I find it to be true every year, this year especially......I always set out to make horse hay but inevitably will wind up with a fair share of cow hay....normally I will make about 250 rolls of cow hay....been rained on, little too moist, etc. This year that total is up to about 600 and consequently the small squares and rolls of horse hay are few......so while you need those guys, there's no money to be made unless you live in an area where there are lots of cattle and no one grows their own hay. Every cattleman (for the most part) down here has hay ground that they pasture the cows on in the winter.....mayo samiches are on the menu for the cow hay producer here. I prefer a slice of Bologna on mine......


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

"Annual" to me means Sorghum-Sudan one brand is "Haygrazer". Brown rib, late maturing, small stem "Gotcha Plus" was my best seed. I can post pictures. One year I had spring planting, waiting for first cutting, rained and rained, couldn't get to it.

When I finally got there, small stems, no boots nor heads, 8' (over the cab on my 6530 Branson) still growing away. S-S gives you 3 cuttings, even in a dry year.

Cows love it.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Agree with Dawg about not aiming for cow hay. Aim for hoss hay and wind up with some cow hay. Usually make @30-50 rolls of hay and rest squares. Looking @200 rolls this year with only 4-5k in smalls. Sure made life easier...prolly cant afford the mystery meat on my sammich, but still got maters and enuff lectrisidy to toast he homemade bread a lil

Edit. I just remembered your storage issue. Still go for horse hay, roll it up, put on pallets, sweat it out, and tarp it


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I broke the rolls on my kuhn discbine and have been running without. 80%-90% of the time when i leave the cut hay 90% cutter bar width and than rake tall and fluffy with rotary rake it makes no difference in dry down. In the fine alfalfa or on the oats it can. But than again running the oats through the rolls part of the head comes off. But if you adjust the rolls to not damage and lose part of the heads you lose the benifit of the conditioner. Kind of a catch 22 on the oats. Also i dont do a lot of preflower fine alfalfa. This is in my area. Your results may differ.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Texasmark said:


> "Annual" to me means Sorghum-Sudan one brand is "Haygrazer". Brown rib, late maturing, small stem "Gotcha Plus" was my best seed. I can post pictures. One year I had spring planting, waiting for first cutting, rained and rained, couldn't get to it.
> 
> When I finally got there, small stems, no boots nor heads, 8' (over the cab on my 6530 Branson) still growing away. S-S gives you 3 cuttings, even in a dry year.
> 
> Cows love it.


You betcha!!!!!!!! Cow candy, and a big producer, even in a bad year

This is sort of a crappy video, but it tells the story. And...&#8230;.it proves that these GoPro kinda cameras suck for actual work.






I'll go as little as 20 acres, and as high as 80 when planting.

20 acres will produce 200 4 x 5 1/2 rounds on two cuttings. IF I CAN GET PLANTED EARLY ENOUGH, AND GET INTO THE FIELD TO ACTUALLY CUT THE STUFF WHAT WITH THE WEATHER. I CUT THIS STUFF SO LATE IT WAS HALF DEAD. Didn't help that it was planted late either. But the gurls ate it like candy. They do every year. Been planting this stuff for about 2 decades.

The goodies are in the stem, despite what folks tend to say. The stems are packed with sugar. It feeds just as well when it's stemmy as when it's cut low.

Nitrates can be a problem. Never fertilize with more than 50lbs/acre (actual) Urea. And leave about 6ish inches stubble (nitrates concentrate in the bottom of the stem). Avoid cutting during, or right after,, a drought. Your local extension service can test for nitrates for a few bucks. Just make sure to get samples over a wide area. Sometimes you have hot spots in a field.

I don't supplement when I feed this stuff. They keep their weight up on it.

If you have grass hay on hand, occasionally pull them off the Haygrazer, and put them on the grass hay for a few days. They get a little loose when only fed Haygrazer, the grass puts the stopper back in 

My dry down time is about 8 days, and I'm running the stuff thru a full width 10' conditioner. If you're not selling the stuff, it isn't a problem. Your cows eat it just the same as if it were nice green hay. The stuff will bleach due to the long dry time,, and the occasional rain storm during the drying period.

I turn the windrows at least twice during the dry down. Nothing special, just a two wheel side rake. Flips it over pretty good. It's time consuming, but if you leave it un-turned, the wet stuff on the bottom will go bad.

I've considered getting away from the mower/conditioner, but all my stuff is long paid for, and it doesn't make sense to lay money out for a different harvesting system. Gotta Hesston 1010 for the Haygrazer, and a 1014 for my grass hay. You get used to that old iron.

It's almost impossible to bale the stuff dry. You'll always have some moisture in it. If the bulk of it is dry, the remaining moisture will wick into the dry stuff inside the bale. This evens the moisture content out, and it keeps just fine.

I generally have a cost of about $10/bale. Equipment repair doesn't figure in to this. On my stuff, it's minimal. That old stuff runs forever.

Just a closing note. Phosphourus performs better than Urea. Urea will wash out, and migrate, during heavy rains that occur immediately after planting. It can really mess up a stand. It's the only choice for topdressing after the first cut, but I prefer a Phosphorous preplant.

Anyways, hope this gives you a little overview of the crop.

I don't like the BMR's. Lotta bucks for not much more IMHO. I buy the cheaper stuff. Around here the cheap stuff is Johnston's "Triple Treat".


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Oh yeah.........

Some guys like to cut it waste high. I don't.

Shorter the plant, more likliehood it might have nitrate problems.

Let it grow tall, and it "grows" all the fertilizer out of it. This lessens the problem.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

And another 'oh yeah' :lol:

Haygrazer likes 140 degree growing days (hi and lo temps). It will start to stall out once the temps start to drop. This might give you an indicator as to whether it's suitable in your area.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Interesting thread and different takes on the situation. I for one have made a profit on hay on 35 ac, Even did it this year and this year was abysmal. Granted it wasn't a lot and I can't pay my other life bills with it. That is why I had an outside job all my professional career. Granted, I have all my equipment paid for and it is in good shape (but that does not stop repair bills-for example this year the thrower motor on the baler decided to quit and a freak blow out of a gasket in a weird place on my small tractor hydraulics and then there was the rude sapling that messed up my grill).

However, I can't begin to do that with round bales or cow hay. The best we can get for 4 x 5s horse quality is 65$. I would not even try to sell cow hay as there is too much trash hay made here by want to be farmers or by people who have farmers contract round bale their hay to let it sit in a fence row. I consistently get 6 a bale for horse quality hay on the wagon, you stack in your barn. I suspect you can't get that where you are and when I started it was 3$ a bale until I had built up a loyal clientele who knows I don't overcharge for the quality provided. I typically have to ted my hay 3 times to get it where I want (about 15%) without preservative.

Another set of conditions that one has to consider in "making a profit" is do you want to have a country life style, do you want to grow things, how much labor can you provide with outside work and how much external labor can you afford to hire. I make a lot of money by running a profitable operation and qualifying for land use tax programs which substantially reduces my local property tax burden that I would have to pay for to afford my desired country lifestyle if I did not farm. For small tracts in these parts, there are not enough farmers that would run my farm the way I want it kept up so I have to do it myself. Also, all my tools and equipment that support the farm operation are part of the business so when I need something, I have it available. I just would not be able to afford that if I did not have my farm business with the tax structure.

It is a lot to think about and I got into it at a much earlier age than you, but it has worked for me and I could not be happier than when I sit on the patio watching the sun go down over the mountains and reflect on the beauty of well maintained farmland.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Just an outside thought but if you have the yerning to bale some hay most profitable way yo do it is custom bale. I charge $25 for a 5x5.5 for cut rake bale and no way around it, its profitable. I have only done a little bit for hire, about 400bales,this year but that is enough to pay my yearly equipment payment of 8000(used 1500 bale baler, new rake and new 10.5 foot disc cutter). Infact if were smarter I should do more like 4000bales a year. Compaired to pecan farming its way easier and all cab tractor work. 
Granted i already have plenty of tractors sitting around.
Oh forgot about my dads hay i put up for him at 25$ a bale. I think i did about 550 or so for him... Yea no way around it custom baling is the gig. Baling for your own cows is ok but calf prices are low..... I like getting paid for the work right away without sitting on a product. Just an idea.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

You have a minimum per acre stx?


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

somedevildawg said:


> You have a minimum per acre stx?


Its gata be worth cutting, would prefer 2 bales an acre, but i did some 1.5 this year. And atleast 10 acres if its close by. I am not really in the business, it was one neighbor and my dad. But I am pretty sure they were happy with me and I could drum up more business if I wanted.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

You're losing money at 2 bales per acre......
At least I am if I do it for that......labor/fuel/net wrap reoccurring costs. Tractor/insurance/maintanence. There is just no way for me to pencil that one out......
The minimum I charge for "custom" work is $85 an acre......I don't care how much they make, it would behoove them to fertilize but most don't spend the money on much of that....hence the reason for the way I charge. Granted I don't do much "custom" work because there are guys around here that do it for $18 a bale  don't think they have minimums......I can't stand that kind of action.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Dawg

IMHO if a local custom hay baler(N Texas) sets their minimum charge at more than 2 rd bales to the acre one would starve to death from lack of customers. Not many fields I've custom baled in my 31 yrs of ""custom operation"" made over 2 bales to the acre & in drought yrs even less. I live in a county that charges less per rd bale($22) than surrounding counties. All my equipment is paid for but not shiny new. I guess I must be a better money manager than you or you're just living too high on the hog! LOL :lol:


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Only time I made more than 2 was in 2014 with that 8' tall Gotcha Plus SS where rain kept me out of the field. That was a nightmare to get put up and I don't want to do that again. So you can have your more than 2/acre.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

somedevildawg said:


> You're losing money at 2 bales per acre......
> At least I am if I do it for that......labor/fuel/net wrap reoccurring costs. Tractor/insurance/maintanence. There is just no way for me to pencil that one out......
> The minimum I charge for "custom" work is $85 an acre......I don't care how much they make, it would behoove them to fertilize but most don't spend the money on much of that....hence the reason for the way I charge. Granted I don't do much "custom" work because there are guys around here that do it for $18 a bale  don't think they have minimums......I can't stand that kind of action.


Actually all this land was fertilized, we were pretty dry. Have a big cutting coming up if we could ever get a few days without rain. 
85 an acre is crazy. I have no issue turning a profit even with those light 1.5 to 2 bale an acre stuff. Tractors are paid for but even that wouldnt matter. If i did hay as my main gig, which it isnt, i figure if you bale 100 bales a day at 25 at 25 a bale thats 2500 a day. Say you get 15 days a month to get 100 bales thats 37500 a month for 6 months thats 225,000...
Like me i bought my cutter rake and baler for 40k
Tractors
7110 magnum 28,500
5100e deere 62,000
8540 kubota 35,000
Thats 165k in iron what other business can you pay off all your expenses in 1 year.
Or you could finance all of your equipment and pay about 40k a year for 5 years. Fuel doubt you would break 7500 in fuel. Insurance is cheap on farm equipment.
Maintenance say 10,000 is your a true gomer pyle.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Never mind, keep baling.....seems to work for you guys, I can't pencil it out no matter how many bales I do a year. Maybe I just think more of my time and expertise.....or time spent with family, or time doing anything other than running around in a field cutting, raking, baling for $45 an acre while I have a huge investment hanging in the balance. To each his own.......I ain't doing it, but more power to those who do, I'm sure the people that you bale for really like it. Like I said before, we have the same folks here that do it for $18 a bale. I have done it on halves if the landowner fertilized and we are getting 4 bales per acre......but I don't like to.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Tx Jim said:


> Dawg
> IMHO if a local custom hay baler(N Texas) sets their minimum charge at more than 2 rd bales to the acre one would starve to death from lack of customers. Not many fields I've custom baled in my 31 yrs of ""custom operation"" made over 2 bales to the acre & in drought yrs even less. I live in a county that charges less per rd bale($22) than surrounding counties. All my equipment is paid for but not shiny new. I guess I must be a better money manager than you or you're just living too high on the hog! LOL :lol:


I must admit Jim, I do like Pork bellies.......
Another thing to consider, that everyone is guilty of....what size round bales? They could be 600lbs or 1600lbs......if I was doing it for $22 a bale they would be whatever size allowed me to get 4 bales to the acre . Two can play that game.....


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Just can't help but respond to this!
First off Mr Pecan, we all know there is no way in hell you can make hay 15 days a month for 6 months. Mother Nature will not allow it. Maybe in Arizona, but you would be under a pivot. 
I do some custom baling, but am selective. $30 for 4x5.5. 2 bale minimum, or $60/acre minimum. I still feel like I'm getting screwed at that rate. Maybe it's just that most of these fields are always torn up by the hogs. 
I just figured Dawg needed some support on his opinion!


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Yeah, if you're making hay for 15 days a month for a 6 month period, you're in what you call a drought, only in droughts, the hay isn't growing.

That being said, this year I was profitable on 20 acres. I did it in all small squares and I can't make enough, they're called for (and then some) before I even mow the field. I already have all my hay for next year (and then some) called for. It doesn't matter if I end up making more bales, they always go way too fast. It's a great problem to have. Not all of the land is producing well. One field got a heavy application of dairy manure in early spring and it did real well. I fertilized another field after first cut and that did great. The third field they weren't able to get manure on it in time and it didn't do great; I didn't even bother with a third cut.

Next year dairy manure will be going on all three fields, it's a great fertilizer and best of all, the manure itself and application cost me nothing, MSU does it for FREE.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Dawg

Problem where I live is the other custom balers that don't want to charge enough. I have a neighbor that custom cuts/rakes/bales a 4X5.5 bale with twine only,no minimum per acre for $20 per bale. I'm in the twilight of my custom hay baling career so I just bale my neighbors that I've been baling for yrs.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

hay-man said:


> Just can't help but respond to this!
> First off Mr Pecan, we all know there is no way in hell you can make hay 15 days a month for 6 months. Mother Nature will not allow it. Maybe in Arizona, but you would be under a pivot.


Ditto


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Custom baling rates here are $25/bale. Leastways that's what I've been quoted last few years.

Or, it's done on shares. 50/50 is what I'm told.

So.....to make a long story short.

Last year was my fallow year. I cut my hay meadow 3yrs, and let it alone on the 4th year.

This is a cut year. So there's a layer of last year's growth under the new growth. Makes for more hay.

Clearing pasture, designing/building a tree grapple for clearing, truck repairs, and other assorted stuff...&#8230;...I ran out of time to do the PTO repair on my remote location hay tractor. The other tractors will do the same job, but I don't take them off this place (hay meadow is about 2.5mi from the house in the next county). These machines aren't as reliable as I'd like, and wouldn't want to have to leave them over on the hay meadow while trying to do work on them. Drug problem in this area, and stuff disappears if it isn't nailed down. Or folks like to vandalize stuff.

So, I cut a deal with a guy that cuts hay.

We settled on 22.50/bale. 6" of uncut grass to be left on the field. No down-to-the-dirt mowing. Bales left where they fall, no transport. 4 x 5.5 bale size (I've bought hay from this guy before, and he puts up an exceptionally tight bale). Net wrap, 3 complete wraps on the bale. (I might note that I hate net wrap. I don't sell hay anymore, I feed it.....netwrap sucks.....lotta netting to get rid of, PITA when there's an ice storm)

80 acres, about 65-70 acres actually clear land. Balance in trees. It's in Native Bluestem.

In an average year, and I wish I had an absolute figure...&#8230;&#8230;.it makes about 140ish 5 x 5 rounds. Not particularly tight rounds. Last time I baled it, I was still using my old NH 846 (which really puts out a 4.5 x 4.5 bale that amounts to a 5 x 5 if you really squint hard)

Dood figured it's gonna make upwards of 300 bales. I think he's optimistic. I figure it'll make around 200ish. I think I can understand why the guy thinks it's gonna make MONDO hay.....folks around here never leave their meadows fallow.

Guy asks me what I might wanna do, pricewise, if it goes well above 200. I figured I really didn't care (probably a stupid move), and that feed was feed, didn't matter how many bales come off the field. My thinking is that the price of hay is inflated here at this particular time. If I don't bale...&#8230;.I buy. Not gonna pay 45-65 bucks a bale. 22.50/bale is ok, considering I KNOW what's going in the bale, it's my place. Beats buying unknown trash hay. And it beats driving all over the stinkin' country to find/buy/haul hay. I don't buy close by......it's overpriced, and I mostly don't like the folks in my area. And this stuff shoulda been off the meadow back in late July. Not gonna split hairs this late in the game. Guy can get on the field around midweek, and the weather is gonna go south pretty soon. Stuff is still green, and it's gotta be cut.

K'kins (My sweet lady) was with me when we made the deal. We had a private confab, out of earshot, while doing the deal. So did the guy, and his sons. Probably looked funny if you were a fly on the wall.

We got back to the house, and discussed it again.

Guy was saying something about what the price would be if it went to 300 bales. Maybe I shoulda asked what he offered. Might mean a few bucks on the BALES OVER THE 200 MARK. Not the anticipated bale count that I figured on.

Yeah.....be nice to save a few hundred dollars (at best), but again we both figured a dollar or two on 100 bales isn't gonna break the bank. Remember...&#8230;.I know the quality I'm gonna get. Guy puts up an honest bale.

Only one thing remains, far as me and K'kins are concerned. We might do a bit cheaper if the guy cuts the wraps down to 2 full wraps. Plus it means less garbage we gotta get rid of. GAWD I HATE NET WRAP. I forget how many twine wraps my NH 650 puts on a bale minimum, but when you take it off, it fits in your hand. Put the trash from about maybe 15 bales in a feed sack. Stinkin' net wrap would fill a dumpster.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

It's a funny flip flop to hire a custom baler. Never did it before. The shoe is on the other foot.

And I know what it takes to put the stuff up, so I can't honestly be an azzhole.

Ultimately, I don't like doing business deals with other folks. I usually wind up feeling unhappy about it all.

Case on point.........

We buy from a guy nearby sometimes. Puts up a small amount of Johnson Grass, and makes an old baler 5 x 5. Not exceptional, but still tight enough to make an honest bale.

This year I bought what he had (20 bales), and forgot about it till he delivered it. 30 bucks a bale. We like to keep a bit of stuff in emergency storage in case things go bad. It's a good price for delivered rounds.

Anyways, the guy shows up with the first load. Says it's a mix of Bermuda, and some other stuff (some sorta fancy crap). Regular grass hay. I didn't kick about it. Figured it'd feed, although a lot of it gets scattered because it's so fine.

Next load he comes with the actual Johnson Grass. The last 10 bales. BUT NOT QUITE. Tail end of the trailer is a half bale.

I give the guy a check, and mention the half bale.

"Well, the Bermuda mix is horse hay (like I give a rat's ###), so I figure it all works out."

Last time we deal with that guy.

I go out of my way, when I have to buy hay, to find Johnson Grass. If it's Johnson Grass I'm supposed to get......I want Johnson Grass, and I want full bales.

This is why I don't like folks around here. Our family's been here since it's been a State, and my predecessors didn't like the folks any better than I do. And, bein' as I'm a geezer in my early 60's......I don't have to like a doggone soul.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> It's a funny flip flop to hire a custom baler. Never did it before. The shoe is on the other foot.
> 
> And I know what it takes to put the stuff up, so I can't honestly be an azzhole.
> 
> ...


I bought some johnson grass hay last year, that hay was the final thing that made me buy hay equipment. Sent a sample out at 4.5% protein, on what was spose to be off a fertilized field and not rained on. 4.5% protein hay is the most expensive feed you can buy. All bales i have baled so far have tested 12.5 or better.
Actually i cut some old dryed out kr bluesteam from the year before that had about 6 inches of jiggs growing under it (under drought conditions) that was 10.5% but we do put 1.5 tons an acre chicken manure and add urea too maybe average about 100 units of nitrogen a year. 
I even resent the johnson grass sample a second time came back the same.

I am thinking about planting clover this winter in spots and baling it. See how it effects my coastal.

Grain prices are falling yet cubes are the same price.

Biggest family opperator in my area who row crops corn and has big silos behind his house that he has a deal with local feed store. Yet he only feeds good coastal hay. Although he may be feeding 3 year old hay becuase he is a waste not want not kind of guy. His cows get no cubes just coastal hay and grass.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

You might take a gander at page 4

http://publications.tamu.edu/FORAGE/PUB_forage_Hay%20Production%20in%20Texas.pdf

I seldom test hay. Is what it is. All's I know is that the gurls eat Johnson grass hay, or Johnson grass in the pasture, like it's candy.

Old guy told me once "If it makes a turd, it's good hay"


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

I cant believe you guys get over $20 a bale to bale hay. Around here you are hard pressed to sell your own hay for over $25 a bale. Course there is a lot of grass in Ky so everybody and their brother has hay around here.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

farmersamm

I hate twine wrapped bales. I can have net cut & removed from bale/back in cab before finding all the twine strings buried in the bale of hay. I only put 2 wraps of netwrap on my bales & have rarely any net problems with transporting/storing bales. By baler design twine starts being applied to bale before operator stops forward motion of baler so some twine gets covered with hay making twine difficult to locate after cutting of twine for removal.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

StxPecans said:


> I bought some johnson grass hay last year, that hay was the final thing that made me buy hay equipment. Sent a sample out at 4.5% protein, on what was spose to be off a fertilized field and not rained on. 4.5% protein hay is the most expensive feed you can buy. All bales i have baled so far have tested 12.5 or better.


JG hay you had tested must have been **very mature** before it was cut for hay.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Tx Jim said:


> JG hay you had tested must have been **very mature** before it was cut for hay.


I am not saying johnson grass isnt good hay, i am saying that somthing went on that should have been disclosed to buyer of hay.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> farmersamm
> I hate twine wrapped bales. I can have net cut & removed from bale/back in cab before finding all the twine strings buried in the bale of hay. I only put 2 wraps of netwrap on my bales & have rarely any net problems with transporting/storing bales. By baler design twine starts being applied to bale before operator stops forward motion of baler so some twine gets covered with hay making twine difficult to locate after cutting of twine for removal.


Ditto, plus if I'm storing net wrap bales outside, I orientate them North/South and never move them on to snow/frozen ground (don't ask how I learned that lesson ).

I'm still finding twine and I haven't used any for more than 10 years! Even though it was 'bio-degradable' didn't make a difference.

Larry


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Tx Jim said:


> farmersamm
> 
> I hate twine wrapped bales. I can have net cut & removed from bale/back in cab before finding all the twine strings buried in the bale of hay. I only put 2 wraps of netwrap on my bales & have rarely any net problems with transporting/storing bales. By baler design twine starts being applied to bale before operator stops forward motion of baler so some twine gets covered with hay making twine difficult to locate after cutting of twine for removal.


Both my twine wrap balers do the same. That first wrap is fed while the pickup is still feeding hay into the chamber. It's actually what gives the twine "tooth" so it will hold firm during the first few wraps.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Anyways...........................&#8230;

I don't see how this guy's gonna get the bales he thinks he's gonna get.

This is an average year on the hay meadow.















Note that I don't cut it down to the dirt. Leave some grass, and you'll never have weeds, and it overwinters fine.









Pics are in various parts of the field, but are a pretty fair representation. Usually comes in at 140 bales with the old chain baler.

Compare that to the Haygrazer, in this case rolled with the new belt baler.







There used to be even more bales when I was still using the old chain baler. With the new belt baler it came in at about 100 bales on 18 acres for *one* cutting. LUV THIS STUFF :wub: Since I quit selling hay many years ago, I seldom plant more than this particular patch of ground. It, and the hay meadow, puts out enough to feed the gurls.

My only question in my mind is the difference in the way it's cut.

I run a swather. For me it's ideal. I'm a one guy operation, and it's less labor to just run windrows, and not have to come back and rake the stuff. It's an extra step.

My feeling is...Having observed the windrows made by a v rake following a disc mower, they seem unusually fluffy, and I wonder if it affects bale density. Sure it might be a tight bale, but I'm wondering if the volume is affected.

We all know that windrow size, and baling speed, makes a big difference. Small windrows + slow baling speed = a denser bale because you're running more revolutions inside the chamber......it packs the daylights out of that bale.

Be interesting to see how it turns out.

Either he's overestimating, or using disc mower and rake is gonna make for more bales due to the fluffier windrows.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

It's not.....but if he makes them 52" it will change dramatically


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

I think these newer balers make a really tight bale no matter what if the density is turned up. I bale as fast as I can reasonably go without feeling like Im gonna tear something up on a bump and rake with a v rake. 4x70" grass bales came out at over 1300lbs. Havent weighed the 4x5s yet, but anticipating 1000# or a little over.

I wouldnt want these any tighter, had to switch to a single spear as it is as the bale just wouldnt. Let the spear go when unloading.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Farmersamm glad you like the haygrazer. I dont have a wrapper or I might try something like that or some pearl millet. I just dont think I could get something like that dry around here in our ultra humid Ky summers. Shoot this year could hardly get grass hay dry.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Well, guy called last nite. Gonna cut today.

Was told he would cut it at about 6" height as I requested, but it might look like it's been cut lower because the disc shoes (?) would bend the stubble down, what with the weight of the machine. (This conversation took place when I hired the guy)

Different story over the phone last night :angry:

"Well, we might be able to tilt the bed a bit to lift the cut, but it looks like it's gonna cut about 3" high"

To be fair...&#8230;..I KNOW ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT 3PT DISC MOWERS. This ignorance is on me :angry:

Never owned one, really never saw the need for one. And never actually took a good look at one.

I HAD NO IDEA THE CUTTING HEIGHT WAS NOT REALLY ADJUSTABLE.

Going into Winter with 3" stubble!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Cutting this late is bad enough.....no regrowth to form a canopy for Spring, BUT CUTTING IT DOWN TO THE DIRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :angry:

Guys around here spray the daylights out of their hay meadows BECAUSE THEY CUT TOO DOGGONE CLOSE TO THE GROUND AND WEEDS COME IN. I've never left less than 6" stubble, AND I'VE NEVER HAD TO SPRAY.

We had a fire some years back. Burnt the meadow to the ground, and almost took homeplace.























Come Spring (we were in a drought at the time, and there was no precipitation the rest of summer after the fire), the garbage came in like a flood. Took 2 years of leaving it uncut to bring it back. Luckily, or unlucky I guess, the only residual problem is a blackberry issue.

This is gonna be one stressful day. Probably be mad for the entire day. Nothing can be done about it I guess.

And...&#8230;.I might be all wrong about it. Be grateful if I am proven wrong.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Oh yeah.......they're bringing in 2 tractors. Say they can lay it down today, and bale it tomorrow. That's some fast work on 80 acres.

I guess I'll see how that goes.

We're in a warm spell right now (high 80's), but the bottom drops out on Saturday, and rains expected for almost the entire following week.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

What kind of grass are they mowing?

Regards, Mike


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

farmersamm

Some disc cutters have high stubble skid plates. I know center link can be extended to raise cutting height to some extent. I rarely can cut 1 day & get grass hay to dry enough(around 15%) to bale the next day & especially not in October in humid N Texas.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

There is not much adjustment to a disc mower for cutting height. It rides on the ground, and the only way to get more height on the stubble is to "lean" or tilt the blades back by extending the center link like TxJim said. Obviously this is only good for an inch or so. You can buy and install shoes that bolt to the bottom of the mower blade bar for the mower to ride on to give it some more height. I dont know anybody that uses them as they arent standard equipment, and most people who do buy them are doing so to avoid rock on rough farms.

I was considering buying some myself though, Id like a little more height on the cut as well. Holding off as Im considering ditching the entire 3pt mower for a towed mower conditioner as the 3 pt mower is really hard to mount on my tractor.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

KYhaymaker said:


> Holding off as Im considering ditching the entire 3pt mower for a towed mower conditioner as the 3 pt mower is really hard to mount on my tractor.


Have you considered purchased a cutter caddy? Caddy is easier to attach to tractor,disc mower follows terrain better & caddy/disc mower can be transported with a pickup if required.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> Well, guy called last nite. Gonna cut today.
> 
> Was told he would cut it at about 6" height as I requested, but it might look like it's been cut lower because the disc shoes (?) would bend the stubble down, what with the weight of the machine. (This conversation took place when I hired the guy)
> 
> ...


Can't expect to get it your way when others do it. I understand your fustration but getting a custom guy to get to it when they say and when the grass needs it is 3/4 of the battle.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

Tx Jim said:


> Have you considered purchased a cutter caddy? Caddy is easier to attach to tractor,disc mower follows terrain better & caddy/disc mower can be transported with a pickup if required.


Well, I havent but I should I guess. Part of the reason I want a moco is to help with dry down. Thats always an issue in Ky.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

StxPecans said:


> Can't expect to get it your way when others do it. I understand your fustration but getting a custom guy to get to it when they say and when the grass needs it is 3/4 of the battle.


Aint that the truth. Naturally you always come second after the guys own hay, or another bigger customer which is understandable. Around here with all the rain this year if you didnt have your own equipment you were screwed.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Cant buy high stubble shoes for my 3pt mower; reckon a feller could fabricobble a set together, but I have doubts that a custom guy would do it for one customer. I do have a set of high shoes on my 5209 conditioner and really like them. I cut around 4". I get a more ragged cut with them, but better quality hay due to them. Some fields look like a kid got gun in his hair and gave himself a haicut with kindergarten scissors. ...but the hay quality and field's health are sure better.

I can only cut as high as 2-3" with my mounted mower


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

They got the ball rolling about 11:30.









It was possible to tilt the forward edge of the cutting bed upwards a skosh very easily on one machine. The results were very good IMHO, all things considered.







5ish inch cut height. (ya know.....this leads me to believe that I've left more when I cut...probably another couple of inches by the looks of it)

The top link was frozen on the second machine, and it cut lower.







Had to make a quick run back to the house, and grab a 36" pipe wrench, and cheater bar. That persuaded it to move. 

Plan is to cut as much as possible today, with a view as how much can actually be baled tomorrow before the rains come Friday night. Supposed to be heavy rains for about 4 days. This might shut off any possibility of getting back on the field for a long time. Like maybe till next year (shrug), dunno. Depends on whether the temps rebound, and the ground firms up. There's a point where it's just dead grass the further along the season gets. My fault, my responsibility, so gotta live with it.

They ought to be shutting down fairly soon. K'kins rolls in from work, and I guess we'll go down there and lock up, and see what they got done.

Y'all asked what type of grass. It's mostly Native Blue Stem. It's the actual "Prairie Hay" here in these parts. Some folks call Prairie Hay anything they can go out and cut......mostly a mix of God Knows What.

This is why I'm desperate to keep any kind of spray off the place. It's the natural mix that was here a few hundred years ago. Kill the legumes, and it's ruined.

What interests me was the amount of thatch that the disc mower removes. I guess the blades spin so fast that they create sort of a vortex. Whether this will be good, or bad, is yet to be seen. The thatch held moisture, prevented weed infestation, but by the looks of it also prevented a thicker stand maybe. Interesting stuff. The V rake is gonna completely scrape any remaining thatch into the windrows. Won't be feeling good about this till I see what happens next year.


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

This 'll tickle ya.

The original price was with 3 wraps on the bales.

Me and K'kins hate the net wrap for the huge amount of trash it generates when feeding, and figured maybe we could lower the price a bit if we told the guy to cut back to 2 wraps.

Ran it by the dooooood&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;...no soap. Low as he'll go.

So I told him to go ahead and run 3 wraps. My thinkin' is.....he could come out ahead on this deal. Shoot me half the price of the extra wrap, and keep the difference. Now he still has to run 3 wraps.

Life is unpredictable in the life of High Finance :lol:


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

In some ways, I'm sort of a pushover when I gotta hire someone.

We started out at $25, he lowered to $23 on his own, and I proposed $22.50 instead of $22. Hell, I never know if I get a good deal. I do know that I got the LOOK from K'kins when she heard $22.50 roll outta my mouth.

I tend to maybe pay too much because I know what it takes to keep the machinery going when I do it, and can only guess what the debt service is on new machines.







There's a bit of money sitting there, and it's X2 for the second machine. I couldn't get that sort of money together if my life depended on it.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I am suprised 2 cutters couldnt knock out 80 acres in a day. Must be rough ground where you can only manage 4mph?

I cant wait for a weather window to lay down my last cutting going to be some 4 bale an acre stuff for sure. Only have about 120 acres to do but it will be hard to get done with pecan harvest starting up.

Have a question for you guys, can you graze cattle on clover? Or will they bloat?


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Baling underway, and bales look good.

No point worrying about whether the field will recover from late haying, and short cut height. It's a done deal for now.

I guess all's we gotta do now is to locate a 10cu yard dumpster for all the netting that's gonna come off these bales :lol:

One takeaway...&#8230;&#8230;..I never took the time to observe how fast this modern machinery runs. It's been an eye opener. Writing the check is gonna be a REAL eye opener


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> hay meadow14.JPG
> 
> hay meadow15.JPG
> 
> ...


I keep a 100lbs berlap sack on my rear hay spear to have a place to put it when feeding. My dad stuffs net/twine in his nice cab tractor????


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

StxPecans said:


> I keep a 100lbs berlap sack on my rear hay spear to have a place to put it when feeding. My dad stuffs net/twine in his nice cab tractor????


I'd probably get on just fine with your Dad


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## farmersamm (Nov 2, 2017)

Wrote the check at about 5:45 this evening. Wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but it still hurt. It made less than 200, about 40 less. About what I thought it might.

Good honest bales.







Guy was kind enough to throw a few bales on for us. Still kick myself about building the trailer with 7K axles, shoulda done a heavier suspension.

Threw a few out ahead of the rain we're supposed to get tonite. About 4 days worth of rain. Might be enough to get thru the storms. Couldn't fill all the feeders, 2 already had partially eaten bales in 'em. Then we have an additional feeder outside the drylot for weaning.









I guess next on the list is a fixture for removing the PTO housing on the Oliver. Little bit of welding, weather permitting.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

7k axles seem like theyd be ok to me...youd be over the tire capacity most likely before the axles anyway, and go over the tire ratings is more likely to cause problems than the axle wouldnt it? I think you would need dual tandems to justify a higher axle rating. Looks like a nice trailer, and even better with finished hay on it!


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

farmersamm said:


> I'd probably get on just fine with your Dad
> 
> hay meadow19.JPG


Why!!!???!! SMH


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## cjsr8595 (Jul 7, 2014)

I graze my cattle on clover and grass as long as its growing. They even pick around on it during the winter. Early spring when the grass starts greening up they can bloat and get the shizzles as we call them, but i keep dry hay in front of them during this timeframe. It helps out with bloat.



StxPecans said:


> I am suprised 2 cutters couldnt knock out 80 acres in a day. Must be rough ground where you can only manage 4mph?
> 
> I cant wait for a weather window to lay down my last cutting going to be some 4 bale an acre stuff for sure. Only have about 120 acres to do but it will be hard to get done with pecan harvest starting up.
> 
> Have a question for you guys, can you graze cattle on clover? Or will they bloat?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

cjsr8595 said:


> Early spring when the grass starts greening up they can bloat and get the shizzles as we call them, but i keep dry hay in front of them during this timeframe. It helps out with bloat.


The shizzles?? That sounds like something Snoop Dogg is troubled with....I wonder if he goes on dry grass when affected? 

Regards, Mike


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Vol said:


> The shizzles?? That sounds like something Snoop Dogg is troubled with....I wonder if he goes on dry grass when affected?
> 
> Regards, Mike


Sorry Mike, I liked your post thinking that 'Snoop Dogg' was your beloved/man's best friend/guard of your Kingdom, my son told me that I assumed wrong. 

Larry


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

r82230 said:


> Sorry Mike, I liked your post thinking that 'Snoop Dogg' was your beloved/man's best friend/guard of your Kingdom, my son told me that I assumed wrong.
> 
> Larry


That's ok Larry....I don't think Snoop will mind either.

Regards, Mike


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