# Small Baler and Small Tractor - Round or squares??



## Jacob (Dec 16, 2020)

Throwing around the idea of getting a Baler, Planning on planting roughly 10 acres of alfalfa/grass mixture and wanting information opinions on what type of baler would be the best for my operation. I'm wanting to grass feed some cattle for market and I'm wanting to make the the most out of my acres. I have 4 tractors that would be candidates for haying and not looking to get another tractor for financial reasons Farmall H, Farmall M (wide front), John Deere 4400 (compact tractor roughly 30ish at the pto, has a loader that could lift small rounds), and A 4320 (Compact tractor roughly 40 at the pto). I Have no haying equipment so any recommendations for my operation would be greatly appreciated. I don't know how well my 4320 would pull a 1734 (3x4) round baler or if I would be better off making small squares (Have Storage Space for about 1000 small squares. On a 6 acre patch I plan on planting there is a slight incline which makes me skeptical of a small tractor pulling a round baler up a hill.

-Still alot of planning in the process and I've talked to someone and they recommended that I come here

-Currently own a strawberry business so this is the reason for 4 low horse tractors

- All information is appreciated, Thanks for your time


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## Okshooter (Oct 29, 2019)

I have a JD3320 (about 27 pto) and a Case 8420 3X4 round baler (same baler as the 1734) and it handles it just fine with pretty minor hills. I think your 4320 would be perfect for it. Field I currently do is about 5 acres and it works great. I'm trying to add another 3 to 4 acres this summer of alfalfa so hopefully that goes well also.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Jacob said:


> Throwing around the idea of getting a Baler, Planning on planting roughly 10 acres of alfalfa/grass mixture and wanting information opinions on what type of baler would be the best for my operation. I'm wanting to grass feed some cattle for market and I'm wanting to make the the most out of my acres. I have 4 tractors that would be candidates for haying and not looking to get another tractor for financial reasons Farmall H, Farmall M (wide front), John Deere 4400 (compact tractor roughly 30ish at the pto, has a loader that could lift small rounds), and A 4320 (Compact tractor roughly 40 at the pto). I Have no haying equipment so any recommendations for my operation would be greatly appreciated. I don't know how well my 4320 would pull a 1734 (3x4) round baler or if I would be better off making small squares (Have Storage Space for about 1000 small squares. On a 6 acre patch I plan on planting there is a slight incline which makes me skeptical of a small tractor pulling a round baler up a hill.
> 
> -Still alot of planning in the process and I've talked to someone and they recommended that I come here
> 
> ...


Typically, square bale demand is the greatest and most profitable as not many folks make small squares anymore. Small squares will also utilize your space much better than rounds.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Welcome to Haytalk Jacob....good luck with your new adventure.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Vol said:


> Typically, square bale demand is the greatest and most profitable as not many folks make small squares anymore. Small squares will also utilize your space much better than rounds.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Not too important thought with the OP likely feeding them all on site for a niche market.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

As long as your tractor handles that little round baler it will save you a lot of work over doing square bales and your cattle won’t care what shape the bales are. You may end up needing to buy some feed eventually and if you’re already set up for rounds at that point purchasing should be much cheaper on rounds.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Both the M and H models have pulled a fair amount of ss balers in the day and they still would today, problem is live power has most folks spoiled today. Not that the skill to 'kick' it out of gear quickly can't be learned when a slug runs into the baler however.

Hopefully, you are planning on storing the RB inside, if so RB can be less labor (hand that is), if you have the right equipment and space to work with.

SS bales naturally can be more labor intensive, but also have some advantages (Vol mentions) along with you can control waste better. Plus, you can mix your hay qualities if needed (we just had a discussion the other day on this board, with higher/lower quality hay feeding, via RB).

I'd lean you towards ss bales, probably could get two old ss balers (so you have a back up, just'n case), cheaper than a RB. But I'm using YOUR labor and money. 

BTW, welcome to HT.

Larry


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Just curious if any of you folks using small rounds and small tractors with a few head have looked at a small bale processor-grind what you need each day into a feed trough. Minimize waste. Idk if they make a shredder that small, just wondered


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## mstuck21 (Oct 4, 2019)

I don't have cows so take my thoughts for what they're worth but in my area I feel like a guy could small square Alf/grass mix to sell for horses and buy rounds of fescue/pasture mix to feed his cows and come out money ahead.

If the weatherman turns on you and a cutting doesn't make horse quality you'll have somewhere to go with it.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

mstuck21 said:


> I don't have cows so take my thoughts for what they're worth but in my area I feel like a guy could small square Alf/grass mix to sell for horses and buy rounds of fescue/pasture mix to feed his cows and come out money ahead.
> 
> If the weatherman turns on you and a cutting doesn't make horse quality you'll have somewhere to go with it.


Not if op is striving for a higher quality grass fed beef.


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## Jacob (Dec 16, 2020)

mstuck21 said:


> I don't have cows so take my thoughts for what they're worth but in my area I feel like a guy could small square Alf/grass mix to sell for horses and buy rounds of fescue/pasture mix to feed his cows and come out money ahead.
> 
> If the weatherman turns on you and a cutting doesn't make horse quality you'll have somewhere to go with it.


That's a good point and thank you for replying but the only problem is that I don't have a big enough tractor to lift bigger round bales.


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## mstuck21 (Oct 4, 2019)

Neighbor raises 10-15 beef a year for themselves and extended family is super low tech .. has a bale spear mounted on the rear 3-pt of his compact tractor.. buys a gooseneck of rounds at a time.. they push all the rounds off the trailer by hand and after the delivery guy leaves he arranges them in a line along the fence with the 3-pt.

Can't stack the bales using his method but he gets by on the cheap equipment wise. Your list of equipment is light years ahead of him lol.

Good luck in whatever you choose. Oh and check out Greg Judy on YouTube he'll have all the answers on the grass fed side of things.


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## Edd in KY (Jul 16, 2009)

I do both small squares and big rounds. Here are a few of my learnings over the last 20 years.

Small square balers need a lot less HP. Small square balers are much cheaper than round balers.

Small square bales stack tighter so they take up less inside space than round bales. In some ways

small square bales are easier to feed just...put a bale in the back of the pickup and throw it over the fence. Small squares are much much easier to sell...anyone can load a few, pay and go. Small squares take more labor and must be stored inside. The best hay customers are people that don't make any of their own hay but own critters.

Big rounds can be stored outside (SS can not). A big round bale may last a week for a few cows...but you will need to drive through the mud with a heavy load to do it. Round balers take more HP and very small round bales mean many trips into the fields, and don't last very long in the feed lot. Round bales do not sell well in my area.

Just my observations. Your usage may vary.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Jacob said:


> That's a good point and thank you for replying but the only problem is that I don't have a big enough tractor to lift bigger round bales.


Amish move RB with something like this:

https://www.fresh-group.com/atv-bale-trailer.html

Larry


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

8350HiTech said:


> Not too important thought with the OP likely feeding them all on site for a niche market.


Re-read his last sentence....and saving/utilizing space is always important. And he sounds like a business man that would enjoy factual information in case the winds of change come through.

Regards, Mike


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## Jacob (Dec 16, 2020)

Okshooter said:


> I have a JD3320 (about 27 pto) and a Case 8420 3X4 round baler (same baler as the 1734) and it handles it just fine with pretty minor hills. I think your 4320 would be perfect for it. Field I currently do is about 5 acres and it works great. I'm trying to add another 3 to 4 acres this summer of alfalfa so hopefully that goes well also.


What type of cutter do you use? I'm not sure what would be best for my operation to dry the hay the fastest - thanks for the reply I've been looking at some of those 8420's which would work pretty good for my operation - I think my 4400 could lift those bales pretty easily if I put some weight on the back


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## Jacob (Dec 16, 2020)

r82230 said:


> Both the M and H models have pulled a fair amount of ss balers in the day and they still would today, problem is live power has most folks spoiled today. Not that the skill to 'kick' it out of gear quickly can't be learned when a slug runs into the baler however.
> 
> Hopefully, you are planning on storing the RB inside, if so RB can be less labor (hand that is), if you have the right equipment and space to work with.
> 
> ...


I really wish they had live power - we used to have a NH ss baler for baling wheat straw to cover the strawberries with in the winter, and the M pulled it good but it sucks that it stops the pto when you push the clutch in. I've been looking at some small round balers and the only thing is I don't want to overwork the 4320 -

I don't know very much about cattle and I'm not sure what the best food is to feed them so if there is any recommendations on feed (Trying to do as little to no grains as possible - Grass fed Beef) I'd greatly appreciate it


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Jacob said:


> I don't know very much about cattle and I'm not sure what the best food is to feed them so if there is any recommendations on feed (Trying to do as little to no grains as possible - Grass fed Beef) I'd greatly appreciate it


Well you might have a quandary. Fast gains, usually require more energy, which grains (corn, oats & barley) are a good source. With hay being a good requirement for the animal, it to can use as a decent amount of ration IF high quality hay is used. The big word is IF. It takes work IMHO to make high quality hay. 

Now, to grains, you can gain a lot, but there can be a 'balancing' act involved. You can really pack on some pounds (daily rate of gain) on the animal, while losing pounds yourself (out of your pocket book). See attached piece on feeding a 4H steer (where you don't always look at the bottom-line to where it's the most profitable). See attached 'Forage Quality in Perspective PSU' piece, table 3 for an example of the bottom-line profit/cost.

I've seen hay test CP (crude protein), from below 7% to well above 20%. If you are shooting for more than a 13% CP overall diet, then having a hay testing close (or above) goes a long way on reducing your need to purchase CP. Barley could be an ideal grain feed for raising beef (not grown in my area unfortunately). Corn is widely used, but starts with a less than 10% protein (but great energy), so a protein needs to be added (soybean meal is used a lot for that purpose). Oats carry the CP, but lacks on the energy side, BTW.

The best advice in my view would be test your hay and develop your animals dietary needs off that. I make my own feed for my grandkids 4H critters and actually send that in for an analysis, along with already having my hay tested.

Unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable as others on grass fed beef.  Hope I didn't short you on the 2 cents of info.

Larry


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## Okshooter (Oct 29, 2019)

I started with a sickle that the guy I bought the baler from through into the deal, but last year bought a drum mower and prefer it for the speed and ease of maintenance. I have worried about drying when I get the alfalfa going without a crimper, but I'm gonna try it and hope for to get some good from this damn OK heat. I'm not familiar with the 4400. I assume you don't have a loader on the 4320. I can easily lift a 4X5 bale with my 3320 and good ballast on the back. The 3X4s only weigh about 400 to 500 pounds. I am pretty sure I could lift two at a time with my loader if I had the bale spike to do it. I have been happy with the baler and the way it performs with my tractor and didn't even consider ss bales because I'm fat and lazy and didn't want to have to handle them by hand. We raise meat goats not cows, but I like only having to feed once every few weeks and not worrying as much if it's getting rained or snowed on while it's out for them to eat.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

save yourself a lot of money and headaches run the cattle on the 10 acres of grass and buy hay. If you have time you could mob graze it to increase numbers. !0 acres is hard to justify the money for equipment investment, unless you buy cheap used and that where the headaches come in. Good luck


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## JamesInPa (Dec 9, 2020)

Between me and my dad we've done hundreds of thousands of square bales using just an H and an M so I'd suggest small squares as well, unless you find a good deal on that 1734 baler. I echo what Edd in Ky said, especially as you don't want any waste with only ten acres of hay and trying to minimize grain use. Also with your small tractor trying to haul even small round bales out in deep snow will be tough work. I only feed squares to my own stock and when you are dealing with muddy hillsides or heavy snow and a small herd of cattle, it's a lot less aggravation to just walk out to the barn or take a truckload along the road and put out square bales in the field by hand. It snowed ten inches here yesterday and I just got back in from doing that rather than messing with a tractor and wagon. Two years ago when it rained nonstop for months and the ground was so saturated that even hillsides were laying water lots of people were sliding down hills on their tractors while trying to feed out rounds.

The few times I fed out rounds I ended up spending an hour with a pitchfork in 10 degree weather breaking it apart and putting it all into little piles several feet apart, the same way I put out squares by kicking the sections several feet apart. There's zero waste that way as they don't lay on it or step on any of it, and minimal damage to the field from the animals standing in one place eating. But it's a lot easier to kick apart squares than rounds 

As far as grass fed cattle go, I run mostly black angus like everyone else around here but this year for my eight breeding cows I borrowed a Red Devon (aka north devon) bull from a guy five miles down the road who runs a larger grass-fed beef operation. That breed marbles a lot better on grass only than most beef cattle and also do well on marginal pasture. They aren't popular as a feedlot breed because they do better on grass than grain. He's switched to them several years ago and loves them because they make nice grass fed beef and are extremely docile for beef cattle. They are a tiny bit smaller than black angus (he's a shade larger than my cows and definitely smaller than an angus bull and CALM). I think I'm going to buy some females off of him next year myself and phase out the angus. Note that they aren't the same as the south devon or the american milking devon. They look like a slightly smaller red angus, with some noticeably different features that means you can tell it's not an angus when you look closely.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Feeding of round bales is getting a bad rap in this thread. If one is properly set up to feed them with a fence line feeder, there is no hogging through mud or navigating treacherous hillsides in the snow or large amounts of waste. With the right set up it wouldn’t even require a loader to position them, just a three point spear. (Though it would probably require a loader anyway if they’re coming off of an indoor stack.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

whoops, double post.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Exactly. I'm not advocating a round baler for 10 acres, but they feed well without waste. Bale feeders work well, we also feed over fence with a pitchfork occasionally. Tip them on end and the hay spools off well into sheets, with 20 lb fork fulls to toss in spaced apart piles.

Most of our round bales are just set in the field though with strings on, once they have eaten 1/3 of the bale the strings are cut off and removed. If you cut the strings off immediately they tend to waste a lot.


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## KS John (Aug 6, 2018)

Edd in KY said:


> I do both small squares and big rounds. Here are a few of my learnings over the last 20 years.
> 
> Small square balers need a lot less HP. Small square balers are much cheaper than round balers.
> 
> ...


I agree with 8350 HiTech, If comparing feeding small rounds to ss the Driving through mud argument goes away IMHO, You will make several trips with ss. At least 1 a day. While it may not be financially sound to bale your own hay on 10 acres, you have to take into consideration getting your hay from an outside source, which may or may not be done in a timely manner. For the OP, have you considered selling the 2 small tractors and buying 1 larger tractor? The H or M ca pull the rake so you might be able to get by that way.


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## Jimmy Bartlett (Aug 17, 2015)

John this might work for Jacob - he could swap one of the compact utility tractors for a little larger tractor. There are possible tractor trades that would be even in cash value (older/heavier). One larger tractor helps to diversify the operation although he'd be losing one tractor with a foot pedal hydrostat.

edit - on 6ac it might be prudent to graze a few cows & buy a few rolls of hay as mentioned earlier.


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## Edd in KY (Jul 16, 2009)

Hey, I did not say small squares are better than round bales. I simply said there are pros and cons with each.

Especially in a small operation like mine with several paddocks with different types of animals, sometimes small squares are simpler to make, store and feed. That said I have round bales in most of my paddocks enclosed in bale feeders. But feeding is usually a 2 man job as the critters rush for the gate when they see a new bale coming and the mud can be pretty nasty and the tractor tears up an area in the paddock ( I do not have feed lots).

The fence line feeder is a neat concept. Here is one farms demonstration and critique. It won't work for my fencing and setup, but it seems feasible for many. per this Univ. of KY demonstration.

www.edenshalefarm.com/fencelinefeeding system

Edited for you Edd. Mike


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## FarmerDick (Dec 19, 2020)

Edd in KY said:


> I do both small squares and big rounds. Here are a few of my learnings over the last 20 years.
> Small square balers need a lot less HP. Small square balers are much cheaper than round balers.
> Small square bales stack tighter so they take up less inside space than round bales. In some ways
> small square bales are easier to feed just...put a bale in the back of the pickup and throw it over the fence. Small squares are much much easier to sell...anyone can load a few, pay and go. Small squares take more labor and must be stored inside. The best hay customers are people that don't make any of their own hay but own critters.
> ...


I'm very new to farming and haven't bought any equipment yet. Could you tell me a couple of as balers I could look for on the used market? 
What size tractor would I need to use the baler?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Farmer, welcome aboard.

We can be 'real' helpful on spending your money, BTW.

Few questions first:


Acres you are thinking of?
Market or use of hay produced?
Storage faculties?
Any hay making experience or someone local to mentor?

With these questions as a starting point, it will be ...................





  








Popcorn




__
r82230


__
Dec 20, 2020








Larry


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## Edd in KY (Jul 16, 2009)

Farmer Dick, without much information about your operation let me say that if you are interested in small square bales, there are lot of options you can consider. Many older new Holland, John Deere, and Massey balers sell for very low prices at auction, sometimes as low as $1000 and often under$2000. Some older models were originally designed to operate with low horsepower tractors and can work very well with a small tractor like a 35 horsepower *live PTO t*ractor (although 50 HP works better). But condition is important (and can vary widely from near perfect to total junk). I have a 50 year old NH270 as a backup, that is a consistent baler, light weight and low HP requirement, and I have $1200 invested.

I defer to the round baler guys to give you advice on those models and HP requirements.


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