# NH discbines - flails vs. rollers



## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Upgrading discbines may be next on the list over the next year. Currently run a NH 1410 with flails. Been a good machine, but it just seems to me that the flails do not dry out hay as good as the old NH 411 with rollers we had way back when, or the old 489 haybines we had long ago. But have never done a side by side comparison, just seems that way but I could be imagining things. Mainly do grass hay - OG and Timothy.

I know the flails are supposed to reduce drydown time in grass hay compared to rollers, at least that's how they are marketed. What are some of your opinions and experience with this? I know several people locally who went to NH flail discbines, and then traded them off on rollers because they weren't happy with drydown time. But a lot of them are also still putting up at least some alfalfa, and I just wanted as many opinions as possible.

Also, pull the 1410 with a 2955 usually and it doesn't even know it's back there, and we have some hills and typically very thick hay. If I moved up to the 10' cut machine would I notice much of any difference? I can't imagine adding an extra foot would require but so much more horsepower, but have read on old posts here and other forums where people like a lot more than 85 hp to run these machines, didn't know if it was really needed or not. Maybe to run it 10mph but I wouldn't be doing that anyway.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Maybe you need to look at a Deere flail machine....they work very well in grass and will definitely dry faster than rollers here in TN....and they will do a very good job with a mix of alfalfa and grass. I prefer a roller machine in straight alfalfa.

I do not know anyting about NH flail machines, but if they do not dry as good or any faster than NH roller, I think you will be better off with a Deere MoCo in a flail. I own a NH roller machine....and it does a good job on straight alfalfa.

The flail design difference in the NH and JD is significant.

Regards, Mike


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I'm on the fence. Had a JD flail machine and now have a NH chevron roller machine. Both worked well for me. I run mostly mixed grass hay.

Adding a foot (and another turtle) will require more power just like a 60" lawnmower requires more power than a 48"

IMO, power equates to ground speed, but then I've never mowed at anything over 6mph anyway. Hidden objects (like bambi's laying down in the uncut forage) come up too fast at higher ground speeds anyway.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Comparing the conditioning ability of a new machine to an old machine is always tough because of the variables involved. Maybe you ran slower ground speed with the 411 and that helped condition the crop more fully. (I'm sure you ran slower with a 489) Maybe your yields have been higher since you switched to the 1410. Maybe it's been a coincidence of weather. Maybe it is all in your head. Or maybe the 1410 flail machine really is worse. Anyway, I think it's really difficult to compare conditioning systems unless you're running them side by side.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I'm in need of a new Discbine and I'am looking into steel rolls for more agressive conditioning just thought I would throw another log on the fire.


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## Harris Farms (May 27, 2015)

I like my New Holland H7450 with rollers but it hates heavy wet hay and it takes way more power than my NH 1411 the extra 3 ft is a big difference


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

I fully admit that it may just be all in my head, and I know it's hard to compare to my older machines. Sure wish I had one back to do some side by side trials. Have a friend who cuts with an old 489. He ran it in the same field as a neighbor with a NH 1412 and they said the hay cut with the old haybine dried better. But that is just one story from one day and obviously nothing scientific about it.

I've always thought the JD flails looked more aggressive to me than the NH flails, mainly because they are smaller, sharper and just looks to me like they would work the hay over better than the larger flatter NH flails. But have another friend who has run JD flail discbines for year and he is looking to make a switch because he doesn't feel they are drying hay down as good as older models. Again, just one opinion. Not really interested in switching to JD anyway...tractors are green, implements are red and yellow around our place. Plus price-wise I think the NHs are a good bit cheaper, at least what I've priced around here.

Tell me more about the steel conditioners. I've seen them in brochures but don't know anything about them and don't know anybody who runs them. Around here its probably 25% rollers and 75% flails. If they would work good in grass hay that might be something look into. What about maintenance and longevity though? That is one thing I like about the flails, they ought to last forever and seem to be pretty forgiving. We have clean fields but you know how it is, every once in awhile you will catch a rock or a down limb or something. Doesn't really matter to flails much, but could do some damage to rollers?

Another option, NHmakes a dimpled hood kit for the flail machines for extra conditioning. Looks like that would really help compared to the smooth hood that comes standard. Anybody use one?


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

In some crops rollers will dry down faster and in other crops flails will. The dimpled hood will help and if you upgrade to the 10 ft machines, the flails run at a higher speed but a slow speed kit can be installed. The 1412's had the slow speed standard. When NH went to the H series they made the high speed kit standard. It does make a difference. The flail design has also changed.

We have several people in our area mowing straight alfalfa with their NH flail machines. Haying has changed enormously in our area over the past couple of decades. Whether they use flails or rolls a lot of the spring cutting is being baled for silage bales so dry down is not as noticeable between the two systems. The other hay is all being tedded, which in my opinion is the critical part in drying hay down in the shortest amount of time. Tedders trump flails and rollers for faster dry down.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

I have to agree with mike10. This is my first year with a tedder and it cut the drying time by a day to a day and a half. As has been stated on the forum before, heat, sunshine, and wind is the best drying there is, but turning it over has been a great benefit, and the best part it was one third the price of a new mower conditioner. I even used it on a field of red clover, tedded it on the first day after mowing and then on the third morning while the dew was still on with no significant loss of leaves and baled the third afternoon. Very, very happy with mine.


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## lidaacres (Oct 11, 2014)

We have a H7450 and have pulled it with an 85 hp tractor in heavy alfalfa. Climbing hills is only the time you have to slow down but will easily pull it 7-8 mph on fairly flat terrain.


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## Cozyacres (Jul 16, 2009)

I had a NH 411 and now run a NH 1412. I think the 1412 cuts better, faster and the hay seems to dry faster then my 411 did. I cut mostly grass / clover mix.


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

My only experience with a steel wheeled crimper was years ago when I started playng with hay (I'm still playing with it according to my wife btw) I bought at a local auction, a pull behind New Idea steel wheeled crimper with steel chevron rolls and it did a helluva job but was moisy.

Don't know what became of it. Must have it parked out back somewhere....

I'm partial to the rubber rolls I guess. That machine is paid for now.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm not familiar with the nh flails but on my discbine there is an adjustable hood over the flails you need to set and replace once the bars get too smooth. The flails too once they get rounded up don't condition aggressively. I've always run my flail at the high speed setting as well.

My biggest complaint about flail conditioning is the power requirement in thick hay. Vetch that is long and wound through tall stands of Timothy will bring the tractor to its knees.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yeah, mine has the adjustable hood and I run it down as close as possible. But it is a smooth hood, no bars or dimples or anything. Just doesn't seem to me like it would do much being smooth compared to another design (or the optional dimpled hood from NH). Mine only has a one speed rotor so no adjustment there. As Mike10 was saying above though the newer and bigger ones have a two speed design. That might be worth looking into.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

Vol said:


> Maybe you need to look at a Deere flail machine....they work very well in grass and will definitely dry faster than rollers here in TN....and they will do a very good job with a mix of alfalfa and grass. I prefer a roller machine in straight alfalfa.
> 
> I do not know anyting about NH flail machines, but if they do not dry as good or any faster than NH roller, I think you will be better off with a Deere MoCo in a flail. I own a NH roller machine....and it does a good job on straight alfalfa.
> 
> ...


IMO Mike hit the nail right on the Head . grass hay alfalfa/mix the fail is great.. straight alfalfa rollers work well the JD fail set up is very good.. but up here where we have rocks big rocks Little rocks it doesn't work very well .. IT would be like standing on the Driving rang range You will get hit


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Ours the blades tend to throw little rocks before they get to the conditioner but there enough dents in the swath formers to know some get in there.



snowball said:


> IMO Mike hit the nail right on the Head . grass hay alfalfa/mix the fail is great.. straight alfalfa rollers work well the JD fail set up is very good.. but up here where we have rocks big rocks Little rocks it doesn't work very well .. IT would be like standing on the Driving rang range You will get hit


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

lidaacres said:


> We have a H7450 and have pulled it with an 85 hp tractor in heavy alfalfa. Climbing hills is only the time you have to slow down but will easily pull it 7-8 mph on fairly flat terrain.


Keep in mind that alfalfa cuts much easier than grass.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Here the consensus seems to be that flails are ok in grass but you want rollers in alfalfa. IMO rollers are more all-purpose.


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## Mellow (Jun 22, 2015)

Tried a JD MoCo with flails about 10 years ago and didn't have good luck. Would chop the top of timothy, OG and shred alfalfa. If there were any weeds like dock in the field they would go through and not get touched. Currently run rubber rolls in mostly grass combinations. Tedding is the key during any cutting.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Take everything I say with a grain of salt - as I run a 50 something year old sickle mower, not a mower/conditioner....

If I were to buy a new mower conditioner - for the small volume of hay we do, I'd probably go with the JD625 flail mower conditioner (625 due to hp constraints that I have and perceived durability) or buy with my wallet and get a New Holland 472 sickle type haybine with rollers.

I am somewhat concerned with the conditioning of the flail mowers based on what I've read - as opposed to rollers - but, feel over the long run the flail mowers will out last the roller conditioners. Just looking at used roller conditioners, I've seen so many delaminating/damaged rollers and they are an expensive fix IMHO.

There must be $$$$'s out there in the hay business (observation - no way a criticism or sarcastic remark) as I see many BIG disc mower/conditioners, expensive looking rakes, 4-6 rotor tedders and 4x4 cab tractors. I say all that to say this - we'll never have enough volume to justify that equipment expense - so when I think of flail mowers vs roller conditioners - it is that my boys would likely be running it 25 or 30 years from now - just like the 50ish year baler, rake and sickle mower.

Don't know what your revenue stream is in terms of buying and replacing equipment on a semi-frequent basis - but longevity and durability is high on the list for us - hence the preference for a flail mower.

Good luck,

Bill


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## CRE10 (Sep 28, 2013)

I'd go with the Deere moco with flails unless you foresee yourself getting into a lot of straight alfalfa. I like the 835 for versatility. Around here there are a lot of places you can't fit into with a 13' machine or big hills you don't want to be on. I feel like a 10' is too small so the 835 Moco at 11.5 seems perfect.

I can't believe the money they are charging for the mocos.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm personally not a huge fan of how large the Deere mowers are. They're a pretty bulky machine. They are good machines no doubt but they seem large to me. I wouldn't mind having that krone 11' center pivot though.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Yeah, and I've always heard the Deere machines pull a little harder. Don't know if that is because they are heavier and takes a little more power to drag around the field or what. But like I mentioned, not really too interested in switching to green just because of the dealer support.

All you guys have about talked me out of switching to rolls...or if nothing else made me think less about it. And I still like the simplicity of the flails and the fact that they should take more abuse than rollers if you hit something unexpected.

Still toying with trading though, mainly because the current discbine is 10 years old and at some point will start needing some repairs, and I hate putting money into reparis vs. a newer machine. Especially with what I was offered on trade on a new one. When you get to thinking about cost per acre, or what it will cost to wait 5 years and then trade (when the new discbine cost has gone up and less trade value on the old one), it is tempting to go ahead and trade up now. Plus my dealer said the new models would be coming out in a year and for whatever reason, I'm always nervous about major design changes until the kinks are worked out. And probably don't want to be waiting that long to trade. Decisions, decisions...


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

You can order a NH machine with steel rollers


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Just curious - have you looked at the MF/Hesston mower conditioners? They offer several configurations from flail to rubber on steel rollers and steel on steel rollers with disc cutters.

The one that intregues me is the model 1359. It has the TiCor rollers. From a dealer website:

http://www.interstatetractor.com/uploads/MF1476_Mowers__SPECS.pdf

The following text:

"TiCor™ Rolls Constructed from reinforced rubber tire cores that have been staked, compressed and machined on the roll shafts, TiCor™ rolls absorb shocks from rocks and foreign objects with less damage than other roll materials. Yet, their shallow-lugged, intermeshing spiral design provides gentle conditioning that crimps stems without damaging leaves. (Model 1359 only)"

I've seen these type rollers on the IH and CaseIH mower/conditioners of old. I've never seen one damaged and to me they can't. There is nothing to delaminate either. Downside for you is it's 9 ft - 3 inches which may not be wide enough for your needs - but with the TiCor rollers, if they are still available, would offer all the benefits (IMHO) of a traditional rubber roller set-up - with the durability of the flails.

Just a thought.

Bill


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Shock of shocks today I demo'd a neighbours NH489 for a guy and it sold for 3200$ to an owner of a JD 1450 discbine with a blown up bar. It was his second failed discbine and he'd had enough.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Colby - I knew the NH could come with the steel rollers, just hadn't thought about them much until mentioned on here. I think i'll get a quote on one with them from the dealer. Haven't gotten around to it yet.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Bill - thanks for the info on the MF discbines. Probably will be sticking with NH simply because I like their equipment and dealer is closer. Those Tico rolls look interesting.

For those of you who trade often, how many acres do you usually figure is max before major repairs and maintenance costs start? Assuming good care and general maintenance and good field conditions. I know that is difficult to quantify but just curious if anyone had any rule of thumb.

My 1410 hit about 2000 plus acres before it needed anything - and that was new skid shoes, bushings where the cutter bar mounts to frame (both to me just normal wear) but also had several seals leaking between modules and had to take the bar apart.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Think about acres per ft of cut to compare apples to apples. 2000 ac on a smaller machine is more wear and tear than a wide one.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Good point. Hadn't really thought about it that way.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I use rolls on a NH sickle machine because I mow some of everything......pure alfalfa, oats, grass. Have heard that flails dry grass a little faster but grass is the easiest to dry down so rolls work just fine for me. In my mind it seems like rolls could be better for first cutting grass since it would crimp the stems but flails better on second cut grasses since there isn't a stem to crimp?

The more I look at disc machines I really like the looks of the MF/ Hesston and their steel rolls are claimed to be really good for quick drying. I wish they offered their double conditioner in a pull type machine......seems like a good concept.


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## Edingerfarms (Aug 25, 2015)

I have a 926 moco with flails and I have a awful time with it drying out any mix hays but on the grass it does a great job


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## rcampbell (Sep 6, 2015)

I've got a NH 1432 (flails), most of what we cut is timothy but some is mixed with other grass, clover etc. I like that it has a good bit of adjustment. Meaning that you can vary how wide the swatch is coming out the back and how aggressive the conditioning is etc. You can pretty much lay it down tall and narrow or wide and thin, whatever works best for what you are doing. We run it on a tractor with 120 PTO hp and that seems to be a pretty good match. Ran a JD 835 (flails) moco with the JD 2955 last year, and while it would run it, I certainly wouldn't use less tractor than that on that particular mower.


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