# Organics



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Maybe it's time to consider....

Regards, Mike

http://www.dtnprogressivefarmer.com/dtnag/common/link.do?symbolicName=/free/news/template1&paneContentId=5&paneParentId=70104&product=/ag/news/topstories&vendorReference=4377d365-60ef-42c6-b468-f07bce00071b&pagination_num=1


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I'm not sold on it for sure......I'd like to see the yields down here. Probably would only get 60-80 bpa under pivot with 3 tons of manure to the acre......


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Definitely not sold on it at all, you get a year like last year here where you can barely get across the ground to spray how are you gonna keep the weeds out of organic? The answer here last year was you don't. Seed for one, weed for seven. Have a 80 tract that sold a few years ago to an organic guy that we drive by all the time heading to Cargill, maybe 20 of it was worth cutting, and that twenty was some of the sorriest looking beans in two counties.

About the only guys in our area that have any luck with organic are a few dairies. Maybe the weather isn't reliable enough here to be out cultivating or flaming weeds when it needs done. But have seen several others around as well that tried organic row crops for several years then somebody else ended up farming it.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Doesn't seem worth it to me. A lot of extra headaches on top of a migraine filled profession. I could see organic tomatoes, they are one of the highest sprayed crops. But still have absolutely no interest in pandering to the lowest common denominator: the hippie mom who listens to Dr Oz as gospel.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm surprised the global warming crowd ain't gone after organic to be truthful, all that tillage and cultivation not only burns more fuel, but release's carbon from the soil as I can't see no-till organic working. I've seen it of course, but it relies on a very heavy cover crop to smother any weeds, then it has to be a cover crop that dies easily when they run a rolling basket over it with knives, then the theory is the crop is no-tilled into the cover crop and by time the cover crop breaks down the crop is up enough to shade the weeds out.

First problem here is with that heavy a cover crop, our ground would never dry out. Secondly if you can't get the cover planted you have weeds again.

That 80 I mentioned previously was no-tilled by the previous farmer for years, then somebody else bought it and started conventional tillage, by the second year the gullies were back on the hillsides facing the road. those guys sold out and the organic guy bought it, gullies are getting worse with the organic guys as they just farmed around em last year.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Yeah, I was reading the article and the guy said he was rotary hoeing EVERY DAY, and cultivating EVERY WEEK... Geez, I'd HATE to see that fuel bill! Plus, the wear and tear on machinery... hours on the tractor... Wow...

Then of course all that tillage means that the soil organic matter is going to be burned up in short order... and the dirt is going to powder fine from all that tillage, and ready to wash or blow away... Soil moisture up in smoke... and all that extra tractor seat time... geesh... it boggles the mind...

From my own experience, "organic" fertilizer (in our case, chicken litter from the local egg farm 13 miles away) is HIGHER in cost per pound of actual N, P, K than "conventional, chemical" fertilizer... Plus, like dawg said, you'd need at least 8 tons of manure/litter to do even approximately the same job as a ton of regular chemical fertilizer-- so a LOT more hauling and handling and spreading cost/effort. Lot more time and trouble to apply than simply spinning a spreaderful from the co-op on as well...

So, organic sells for 3-5X what 'conventional' does... sounds like you'd need every penny of the extra to pay for all the wear and tear and fuel and manure and back surgery from all that extra tractor seat time... LOL And then, all that just to sell to some group of nutters that believe everything Dr. SnOZ tells them... LOL

Meh... they can have it... We've always produced with the ABSOLUTE LEAST amount of chemicals and fertilizers that we possibly can, and don't use antibiotics or other drugs on livestock unless ABSOLUTELY necessary... Some might say we shave things TOO close, but then we shoot for lowest cost of production-- I'd say MOST guys are doing that already-- I don't know of ANYBODY spending more time and money to apply more chemicals or fertilizer or antibiotics or whatever than they NEED to for their production style and philosophy...

Later! OL J R


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Actually we aren't saving a lot on chicken litter by time you pay for hauling and spreading, not to mention can't have it spread just anywhere as their spreader would compact the crap out of some of our ground. After the calcium and a few other things more than the K and N.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Actually we aren't saving a lot on chicken litter by time you pay for hauling and spreading, not to mention can't have it spread just anywhere as their spreader would compact the crap out of some of our ground. After the calcium and a few other things more than the K and N.


Yeah a number of years ago I thought about fertilizing a patch I sprigged in bermuda with a heavy dose of litter... It had come out of row crops and I knew the OM and tilth were low, and it needed a good dose of nutrients... so I called up the local egg farm and talked to a guy there about litter...

They grow bermudagrass hay to use up extra "fertilizer" they have... I guess they have washdown systems to wash the manure out of the henhouses, and then they pump into lagoons or something... they pump the wastewater out through sideroll impact sprinkler irrigators on their bermuda patches to fertilize them between cuts of hay. How they get away with pumping BLACK water spraying through the air onto the bermuda patches, liberating a stench that would gag a maggot 5 miles away, I don't know... seems like the gubmint would have something to say about that... ( I could see dribbing it out on the ground with "drop socks" irrigators or something like that rather than putting it airborne through an impact sprinkler). Anyway, they sell dry litter that can be spread with a manure spreader and delivered by lift-dump semi trailers... He did the numbers for me and said for my 20 acre hay patch, I'd need about 4 semi-loads, and they'd bring out the spreader... since I only have a 70-odd horse 5610S New Holland tractor and their spreader was rather large, so they recommended I only load it half-full. Then he gave me the prices and I took a look at them. I called the co-op and got some recommendations from them and prices as well and looked over the whole spiel...

When I started doing a little math, dividing it out to get the "per pound of actual nutrient" with the prices and analysis of the litter versus the regular dry fertilizer, I was surprised to find that the litter was higher by a goodly amount than the regular dry fertilizer! I thought I must've done something wrong, so I figured it again a couple times to make sure... I had another question so I called the guy at the egg farm back and mentioned my "price per unit" calculation being higher for the litter than for regular fertilizer, and he nonchalantly told me, "yes, that's right..." I said, "Manure is higher than fertilizer?? All I ever heard was that litter was a lot cheaper... why is it higher??" He told me straight out, "because we can sell it for a higher price-- there's a lot of organic rice farmers that can only use litter or manure for fertility requirements and maintain their organic certifications"...

So, it was pretty much a 'no brainer'... deal with the trouble of loading and applying all that manure, breathing the dust and crud and having the field stink for a month, or go pick up one spreader-load of dry fertilizer in a hopper-spreader, hook up the tractor, and spin it out in an afternoon and take the spreader back for less money...

Later! OL J R


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Make no mistake.....Organic is here forever. This will only grow by leaps and bounds and producers can sit on the sideline and procrastinate and bemoan the fact and be left behind. Right now this does not effect the hay industry nearly as much as the food industry.....but it is coming...sooner rather than later.

Now is the time to be listening and thinking about our forage industry and begin putting together a plan on how much of conventional vs. organic in your production. In the beginning of the forage movement one will be able to produce both....and it may never go completely to Organic....but the food industry is certainly headed that way.....people are much more learned with the internet and they will demand that their foods that THEY PURCHASE be more healthier...which probably will lead to cancer reduction in the US.

Follow the money.

Are you a owl or a ostrich?

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> Make no mistake.....Organic is here forever. This will only grow by leaps and bounds and producers can sit on the sideline and procrastinate and bemoan the fact and be left behind. Right now this does not effect the hay industry nearly as much as the food industry.....but it is coming...sooner rather than later.
> 
> Now is the time to be listening and thinking about our forage industry and begin putting together a plan on how much of conventional vs. organic in your production. In the beginning of the forage movement one will be able to produce both....and it may never go completely to Organic....but the food industry is certainly headed that way.....people are much more learned with the internet and they will demand that their foods that THEY PURCHASE be more healthier...which probably will lead to cancer reduction in the US.
> 
> ...


Sounds like they may already have you "sold" mike......
I'm not so sure about it being "here forever", well....I'm sure it will be, but will it be mainstream? I don't think it will be possible to feed all the folks populating this planet now and into the future with low yeilding organtics......I think it's a niche, a marketing move and a good one.....but I don't see it as sustainable........and I'm certainly not sold on the cancer rate going down, but I've surely been wrong in my assumptions and analysis before. I suppose everyone could make "plans" for organics, but I have enuf of a job keeping up with my antiquated farming practices......
I'll want to be a falcon......fast and nimble.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Exactly...

It's easy for a group of rich nutters and their libtard media types with an agenda to make it SOUND like "it's coming, it's gonna be all or nothing, you can get on board or get run over by this train" type nonsense.

Most people I know are struggling just to pay the bills... they'd don't give a hoot in hell whether their food is "healthier" or "organic" or whatever BS label you want to put on it... they only care about having enough money to pay the bills and still buy groceries... they're the average WORKING person, not the typical upscale yuppie idgits these articles PORTRAY as the "mainstream buyer" that spends twice as much on groceries as necessary because they're buying the "organic" or "free range" or "cage free" label or whatever it might be...

Will there always be more idiots with more money than sense?? Sure. Will there always be smart guys who are willing to jump through their shorts backwards to make a buck off them... Sure... Will there always be folks with limited means who will be cost conscious and looking to save money and don't care about or aren't willing to pay for stupid labels?? You betcha...

Historically, the lowest cost producer is in a MUCH safer position than the high end niche-market producer... Fads and niches come and go... "the poor you always have with you"...

If a guy can make a buck off the "suckers", more power to them... like Barnum said, "there's a SUCKER born every minute"... BUT, thinking that the ENTIRE production scheme and marketing scheme of the country (and ultimately world) is going to follow these nonsensical fads is just patently ridiculous...

Wait til we have a major economic meltdown and folks can't hardly afford to buy food, and see how quickly all this "organic, all natural, no-GMO, cage free" garbage goes right out the window...

Later! OL J R


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## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

I do believe it is here to stay at some rate but I think it will start to fade. If you read online, watch the news, look at any kind of social media you can tell people are passonate about being organic. BUT I believe people talk and preach organic but only a handful actually do it. It's not easy finding an organic market for anything especially of,your talking large scale to get the bills paid. Judging by how people talk about it on social media and other places there should be more then enough demand to make it easy to market any organic product.

If it did start to catch on I don't think the average person could afford it. Then there is the whole debate on wether organic practices are all that safe, and the environmental footprint, and sustainability.

I have no problems with people wanting organic, antibiotic free, grass fed, non gmo, food. If your trying to better your family I think that's great! What bothers me is I hear a lot of the organic crowd running down modern ag, factory farms, and Feed lots, when they have absolutely no clue what goes into any of it. If they want to tell us how to farm I think they should take it upon themselves and raise an organic garden with all they're vegetables for a year raise they're own grass beef or free range birds. It's not hard just takes work that they want others to do for them for nothing. OR start driving demand. Farmers will follow the market if it financially makes sense.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Something else, around our area, a lot of ground is in production that the only reliable way to get a crop is no-till, or drop a hundred grand or better on irrigation, or put it into alfalfa production. Not enough demand here for hay to put it all in alfalfa unless you want to lose money on that as well.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Just another marketing scheme to con comsumers with a feel good product and giving the farmers a little more than conventional to keep them happy while the middle man makes even more. No different than conventional

Price organic products in the store then check prices farmers are paid. I bet you its not much different than conventional products


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Sounds like they may already have you "sold" mike......
> 
> I don't think it will be possible to feed all the folks populating this planet now and into the future with low yeilding organtics......I think it's a niche, a marketing move and a good one.....but I don't see it as sustainable........and I'm certainly not sold on the cancer rate going down


Dawg....I am specifically talking about here in the good old USA....where the dollar rules. I cannot say that I am "sold" on organics, but I sure can read the writings on the wall.....and the wall says that the retail food industry is already headed in a hurry towards organic food(heathier less chemical).

I have no doubt that the outbreak of cancers such as prostate are related to food...specifically food preservatives that were used back in the fifties and sixties....I think most would agree that the less chemicals we put into our food the better off the populous will be health wise.

I do not think that all the world will demand organics by any stretch.....but we know for sure that is going to happen here and in Europe. Every few days one reads where this company or that is using cage free/ free range chicken eggs, no GMO's in their ingredients etc. etc. It is just a matter of time now in this country, organics will soon rule the marketplace.

And Vermont.....Vermont legislating a label listing GMO's has affected the whole country.....now one major company after another says' they are just going to put it on ALL of the states labels instead of just doing it for this one or that one.....that it just is more economic to do so.

Food, as we know it, is drastically and rapidly changing.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

bbos2 said:


> What bothers me is I hear a lot of the organic crowd running down modern ag, factory farms, and Feed lots, when they have absolutely no clue what goes into any of it. If they want to tell us how to farm I think they should take it upon themselves and raise an organic garden with all they're vegetables for a year raise they're own grass beef or free range birds. It's not hard just takes work that they want others to do for them for nothing. OR start driving demand. Farmers will follow the market if it financially makes sense.


It bothers me too, but we have seen how these things go.....and who controls the media....and it sure as heck ain't no farmers.

The poor and the uninformed may not buy organic because they cannot afford to.....but the poor and uninformed do not run this country.....people are going to demand healthier food....and I cannot blame them one bit. And yes, there are organic crooks just like in anything. Organic is in its infancy....and it will be here forever now. Better get used to it....its not going to be a phase.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

it will most definitely be here, for that there is no doubt. Mainstream is what I'm talking about......I do not think for a minute that organics will soon rule the marketplace, not for a minute. Will they make up for a large dollar portion....quite possible given the extra price. But will the schools be supplying organics? Idk, perhaps if the hildabeast gets elected they will.....will the prisons be supplying organics.....see previous answer. Food and food safety is definitely changing for the better. But true organics, I don't think they will ever dominate the marketplace or feed the people. 
Again, I'm subject to be wrong.....but I ain't gonna "bet the farm" on organics just yet, perhaps my grand younguns will capitalize 

I can hear em now....."grandad use to have to ride those tractors, glad we don't have to".....'ya, and messing with that corrosive stuff, what did the call it ....fertilizer? Even sounds bad'......"I'm so glad we don't have to do that"......'can you imagine having to spray pesticides and fungicides, whatever those are....they sound nasty too'......."yea, dad said you could make a round on that tractor thing and a sprayer and them army worms would be wriggling on the ground, reckon what it was doing to the guy that sprayed it"......'They sure was some dumb sob's......" 
Kinda sounds familiar to what I've thought under my breath about grandad out planting and picking 5 acres of cotton by hand


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Vol said:


> Dawg....I am specifically talking about here in the good old USA....where the dollar rules. I cannot say that I am "sold" on organics, but I sure can read the writings on the wall.....and the wall says that the retail food industry is already headed in a hurry towards organic food(heathier less chemical).
> 
> I have no doubt that the outbreak of cancers such as prostate are related to food...specifically food preservatives that were used back in the fifties and sixties....I think most would agree that the less chemicals we put into our food the better off the populous will be health wise.
> 
> ...


I don't understand these companies sometimes...

Wouldn't do for me to be running one... I'd tell Vermont where to head in and refuse to do it... they want it labeled, THEY can label it or they could damn well do without...

Not like Vermont is the center of the universe that no company could live without... LOL

What the companies SHOULD have done to California decades ago with their "California emissions"... Told 'em "Sorry CA, go back to donkey carts-- we refuse to comply so we won't sell any cars in California"...

They'd have backpedaled so fast it'd make your head spin... Either that or they'd be fighting Cuba over old 50's cars to try to keep going so they didn't have to walk everywhere... LOL

Now that I think about it, though, it makes perfect sense, and the companies learned that compliance isn't so bad-- it gives them an excuse to jack up prices on everything... Like the emissions regs on cars back in the 70's... suddenly the gubmint says you have to put a catalytic converter on all these new cars you're selling, so suddenly where you could have gotten a car for $1650 dollars a few years before, they put a catalytic converter on it and lower the compression ratio and detune the engine, and charge $700 bucks more for it... it's been an upward spiral ever since... The companies learned how to milk the cow they were forced into buying...

Same thing with all these "labels"... companies love it because they can use it as an excuse to jack up the price... "all this recordkeeping and testing to determine the source-verified ingredients and test for GMO contamination and levels means we're going to have to increase prices on all our products by10% next year..." I can already see the headlines...

Still need to tell them where to head in...

Later! OL J R


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> Now that I think about it, though, it makes perfect sense, and the companies learned that compliance isn't so bad-- it gives them an excuse to jack up prices on everything...
> 
> Later! OL J R


That's it! It seems every single company in the last eight years is just looking for a reason to raise prices.....first it was anything connected to the price of crude.....and now, it's just anything. Have you bought any grass seed lately.....some of it (Orchard grass) has went through the roof the last couple of years.

Regards, Mike


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

Organics are going to keep growing, as well asl all natural. Whole Foods, Sprouts, Trader Joe's are seeing that segment of their market explode, even at premium prices. Mainstream groceries are starting to add more to their organic, all natural, identity preserved lines. Our Dillons store here in Hays (Kroeger is the parent company), is expanding, adding a sushi bar, Starbucks bar, and expanded organic section. This is a town of 20,000 in Western Kansas. My day job is an economic developer, and our community survey goes out every 3 years to find out waht people want for retail, where do they shop and what do they shop for. 10% of the responses said they are buying groceries out of town, specifically for organic and all natural. The nearest store that sells a significant line of organic groceries is 180 miles away.

Don't kid yourself, the shift to smaller, intensive operations for organics is happening. It won't replace large scale ag completely, but it isn't going away. We can call the consumers that buy organic at a major premium suckers being duped by a major marketing campaign, but they are the ones buying products, so ultimately production needs to meet demand or the consumers find a new supplier.

Around here, we are seeing several good sized producers shift small acreages over to vegetable production, we are talking irrigated ground upwards of 30 acres at a shot. Producers are tellign me that they expect net return per acres to be nearly double traditional irrigated crops, and they are selling thru local vegetable coops, direct to local groceries that are trying to source more produce locally, and some big farmers markets.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Vol said:


> That's it! It seems every single company in the last eight years is just looking for a reason to raise prices.....first it was anything connected to the price of crude.....and now, it's just anything. Have you bought any grass seed lately.....some of it (Orchard grass) has went through the roof the last couple of years.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Nah... wanted to do some seeding and the old man didn't want to spring for it the past couple years, so just nursing along what we have... I bought a cultipacker on my own nickel to do it, too, then he backed out on buying seed... and I can't afford to buy everything when I only get a share, basically for labor.

Yeah, that's the buzz-word nowdays-- just "hike the price"... Course I see this year cotton is STILL selling for 50-odd cents a pound-- hell we made more than that when I was still riding standing up in the front seat of Dad's 72 Chevy pickup... why I quit row cropping.

It's gotten to where things are priced not by what they're WORTH, but WHAT THEY CAN GET... IOW, what the biggest number of fools are willing to shell out for it, regardless of how stupid the price is...

Oh well...

Later! OL J R


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> It's gotten to where things are priced not by what they're WORTH, but WHAT THEY CAN GET...
> 
> Oh well...
> 
> Later! OL J R


Very true.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)




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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

swmnhay said:


>


I like the sentiment but there shouldn't be a comma after "this" in the first one... it changes the meaning...

Sorry, pet peeve of mine... dunno if you made the meme on meme generator yourself or got it online... not trying to be a grammar nazi BUT... misplaced commas and stuff can really change the meaning of stuff...

This should illustrate the point. (and yes I'm a nerd and proud of it...) 

Later! OL J R


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

luke strawwalker said:


> I like the sentiment but there shouldn't be a comma after "this" in the first one... it changes the meaning...
> 
> Sorry, pet peeve of mine... dunno if you made the meme on meme generator yourself or got it online... not trying to be a grammar nazi BUT... misplaced commas and stuff can really change the meaning of stuff...
> 
> ...


I just stole it off the internet.

With the comma or not it has the same meaning to me in this case so who cares.

I wasn't much for grammer in school but I don't ever recall the use of 3 dot's between sentences either...Or the word "dunno"


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hey Cy, easy on them dots.......


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

swmnhay said:


> I just stole it off the internet.
> 
> With the comma or not it has the same meaning to me in this case so who cares.
> 
> I wasn't much for grammer in school but I don't ever recall the use of 3 dot's between sentences either...Or the word "dunno"


LOL Just something I started doing (yes, bad habit and incorrect use of punctuation, you are correct!) when chatting in internet forums. Basically, the continuation of the thought into the next sentence. I suppose I should practice what I preach more closely and go from there.

We're all guilty of it to some degree, with the "LOL" stuff from texting and internet chatting that has become part of our lexicon.

At least I don't use the "wat R U doin w/ ur comp n wat R U tryin to say cuz I don ndrstnd wut U R sayin" type crap that these kids seem to pass off as communication nowdays. LOL

Anyway, point taken and have a good one! Just laughing with you not at you; it's all good.

OL J R


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Organic is not going away. The local vegetable processor that I grow for approached me about growing some organic. The prices paid are 3 times the price of conventional so I plan to try it. Currently have 2 pivots of alfalfa in transition to organic. For me it was strictly a business decision. Alfalfa hay will likely be part of the organic rotation but the real money is in vegetables. I am lucky because the market came to me so all I have to do is figure out the production side. Luckily the processor is already growing some organic so I can learn from their mistakes.

Organic will be a lot more work but has the potential to be very profitable.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Time to give my two cents lol!! To me organic production and non gmo crops are a bunch of smoke and mirrors. It is a way to fool the public into thinking there getting a little drink of the fountain of immortality in return the marketers are making a fortune. If the world including the US suddenly outlawed all gmo crops and, went totally organic the worlds population would starve. It is currently not possible to take the yield loses and feed the world, we are way past that point. Organic will always be around and it will expanded yes, but will it feed the world not in my life time.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Your absolutely correct. But as long as they are offering the huge premium I would be a fool to turn it down.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Nate926 said:


> Time to give my two cents lol!! To me organic production and non gmo crops are a bunch of smoke and mirrors.


Organic and non GMO is 2 different things.Well you need non GMO to be organic but not organic to be non GMO.

GMO crops have their place for pests and to use Roundup or some other chems.But if you don't need the traits why pay for them?Roundup no longer works very well,although it did for yrs.So why pay for the Roundup trait if it no longer works and you need to use other chems anyway?

I plant both GMO and non GMO crops.I'll plant what makes me the most $ per acre PROFIT.

Every farm is different and I plant accordingly

I wish I got a premium for non GMO corn.

Some of the GMO claims are smoke and mirrors.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Swmnhay where I live we are at least 20 if not more years behind in Ag tec. Round up works excellent here do to the fact our weeds haven't grown a resistance to it. 24d is what seems to be the least effective in my area. I understand the differences. As I said organic AND gmo are smoke and mirrors. But in reality they go hand in hand. If I have a customer that wants none GMO hay calling me she also wants it to be organic. Notice I said SHE lol!!

Jay I don't blame you at all for making a premium!! If my county of farmers world get there lazy aces of the couch and take care of there weed infestation I could see it being a lot more logical for me to think organic. Where I live my hay fields are surrounded by a sea of weeds. I've been out west and things are so much different! The weed pressure is a tenth of what I have here.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

To me, it is pure supply/demand econoics. Remember GM? The produced vehicles that THEY wanted YOU to buy, no the cars that YOU wanted to buy...so their market share declined and other manufacturers built cars that people wanted.

There is a market share, upon which can be capitalized, for non GMO AND organic. If it fits a grower's capability/marketing region AND they steadfastly refuse to supply the "nutjobs" because of belief that gmo or non organic is great, then that grower is growing what they want people to buy, not what the people want to buy. i think it is a smarter business plan to fill a demand (grow what is selling for top $$) than to create a demand (commonly done by lowering prices to the point of economical demand) for an oversupply.

It is not illegal nor immoral, so it seems like a pretty good way to lighten others' wallets.

73, Mark


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Glyphosate(roundup) does not work on Palmer Amaranth here....and is beginning to weaken considerably on a few others.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Vol said:


> Glyphosate(roundup) does not work on Palmer Amaranth here....and is beginning to weaken considerably on a few others.
> 
> Regards, Mike


we don't have Palmer Amarath here but we have waterhemp that is now resistant to Roundup.I think there is 250,000 seeds on a waterhemp plant so it spreads fast.Birds,pollen and machinery spread it and it's taken 3 yrs from havering perfect control to 0 control with Roundup.

Palmer Amarath is described as Waterhemp on steroids and it's only a matter of time that it gets here.It started in the south and is spreading farther north every yr.


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