# Hay feeding vs winter grazing.



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

From time to time I make snide remarks about feeding hay in Late Summer and during the Winter.

BUT I have been told by Some who make money with Cattle by grazing not by feeding.

Go back to the 1950's my college Prof took us to a cattleman who had cut his stocking rate and increased his income from his ranch. Then the standard THERE was one animal unit for 10 acres. Everyone fed hay.
He cut his stocking back to one animal unit to 18 acres and did not need to feed hay or other feed.
Later I met Grazing Dairy operators who grazed his cows and did not feed in the traditional way.

Someone I met from North of 49N their cattle grazed all 12 months. Their contention was if Buffalo can make it so can a good Cattle Breed. That is beyond my comprehension but I north of 32N we see cattle that do graze 12 months of the year.

Now I hope you all realize My income comes from livestock owners who feed HAY Summer and Winter. Being in a flood plain with water flowing fast enough to push down fences we opted to put up hay and not run livestock.

I have heard of a grazing dairy that milked 1,000 head. They just milk in three different parlors.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

In my area I know a couple of guys who try grazing all winter. But here it can not be done every winter. When the snow gets too deep or the ground has a layer of ice on it. I have grazed on some years a part of the winter but I will have some hay in a bale feeder. Once the cattle start on the hay the grazing is done till spring.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

From what I understand, at one time our native grasses provided grazing here all 12 months. Wish I could find those native grasses and bring them back.

We plant and fertilize ryegrass and clover for winter grazing as a supplement to hay. We have also got some endophyte friendly fescue in one area that helps out.

An Extension Agent told me to cut my herd in half, stockpile grass and make more profit. He does not believe I would have to feed much, if any, hay. I just can't see it. Even if a momma cow takes 5 rolls of hay to make it through the winter she is still making me good money.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

We sorta do a combination deal... We don't rely exclusively on hay or grazing all winter... What was said above about "once the hay hits the ground, the grazing is pretty much over" is exactly right... My folks (who I run the farms for) are terminally cheap, and yet they get all riled up about feeding the cows too early and too much, and want to start with the best hay. Sorry but it doesn't work that way. They're too cheap to pay for the fuel, fertilizer, and equipment repairs/operating costs it takes to make a huge amount of hay, plus the hauling costs 100 miles from this farm to the other one, and when you factor in those costs, it's not really making much after expenses anyway. The droughts over the past decade have reinforced the importance of managing stocking rates... Especially at Shiner where the sandy, hilly soil does not hold water well and dries out quickly, and where the rainfall patterns are more seasonal and with about 25% less rainfall yearly as well. We're currently what a lot of folks might consider "understocked" but I'd rather have the cattle pushing through waist-high grass (and some weeds) than scrounging over dry hills looking for something to eat. Same thing here at Needville, since I have to take hay off 1/4 of this place to supplement for the winter, as well as grazing a herd here.

I generally don't start feeding until January (try not to, anyway) and ALWAYS start with the oldest/poorest quality hay FIRST. If you start feeding "ice cream hay" right off the bat, the cows will turn their nose up at older stuff later on, and stand there bellering for GOOD hay... start with the old stuff, they'll eat what they want of it and graze the rest of the time. Once the grazing is pretty much gone for the winter, the old stuff should be gone and feed the good stuff LAST, when they really need it. I feed 3 6x5 rounds at a time, unrolling them down the hill; takes them about 3-4 days to eat that up and clean up the ground, so they have to graze the next 3 days before they get more hay... encourages them to clean up everything that's edible and keep foraging/grazing as long as there's anything decent to be had. THEN increase the feeding as necessary.

We've ridden out some pretty bad droughts the same way, along with culling as needed. We rode out 96 thanks to road hay and leftover hay... hated to see how they grazed the place down to nothing, but we managed to hold onto most of the herd and built things back up afterwards... Better than having to sell out a dime on the dollar and then rebuild the herd from scratch... A skinny cow will gain weight when the rain comes and the grass comes back, but one that's sold off for $200 that costs you $600-800 to replace... OUCH!

It all depends on a person's priorities though... some folks want to run every head they can, and if it turns into a killer drought or too long/bitter of a winter, they either have to decide to pay a high hay bill, cull heavily or liquidate most of the herd, or some combination thereof... Considering who I'm working for, "the lowest cost solution" is the "right one" (course then I have to listen to "why don't we have any more calves to sell??" Well, maybe because we had to reduce the herd size by sending mama's down the road so you wouldn't have to buy hay or put up more hay-- mama's that went down the road don't have babies to sell later on!)

It's all a balancing act in the end, anyway...

One thing is, it sure is nice when you have a mild winter and don't have to hardly feed AT ALL... 

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> From what I understand, at one time our native grasses provided grazing here all 12 months. Wish I could find those native grasses and bring them back.
> We plant and fertilize ryegrass and clover for winter grazing as a supplement to hay. We have also got some endophyte friendly fescue in one area that helps out.
> An Extension Agent told me to cut my herd in half, stockpile grass and make more profit. He does not believe I would have to feed much, if any, hay. I just can't see it. Even if a momma cow takes 5 rolls of hay to make it through the winter she is still making me good money.


Thing is, the native grasses are low producers... I've read a lot about that too, and my Grandmother (whom I used to run the farms for before she passed away nearly 10 years ago now) always talked about "the old days" and having native pastures and never having to fertilize and all that... even on row crops they didn't fertilize in the old days...

BUT, that was then, this is now... Improved cultivars and varieties of grasses and crops DEMAND higher fertilizers and inputs in order to make those big yields...

In the old days, planting fuzzy cottonseed from the gin and thinning it to 2 hills per foot by manually chopping, and being content with a half-bale per acre yield, OF COURSE you didn't have to fertilize! Bout like when 40 bushel corn was considered a "big crop", and it was all open-pollinated varieties planted at 1 stalk to the foot (13,000 PPA)...

Guys now would consider a 40 bushel crop not worth combining... and 1/2 bale cotton not worth picking! But they're planting corn at 28,000 PPA and cotton at 60,000 PPA... and looking for 140-160 bushel corn (hereabouts) and 1.5-2 bale cotton to the acre... can't do that without fertilizer, weed control, insect control, etc. Same thing with bermudagrass or other improved hay grass species...

Natives can produce, and produce in drought, cold, and poor fertility/ low input systems that "modern" forages just can't match... BUT-- they don't produce HIGH YIELDS, and they can't tolerate heavy stocking densities...

To make native pasture work, you have to "graze it like the buffalo grazed it"... ie, buffalo were constantly on the move; they'd graze an area and move on, probably not back for months or til the following year. Gave the grass plenty of time to recover and reproduce, build rootstock, etc. Continuous cattle grazing will (and in most cases did) preferentially eliminate the native grasses for more "grazing tolerant" introduced grasses-- the very grasses that need the higher inputs, more water, better fertility, etc... It's like the best way to get rid of johnsongrass-- let cows continuously graze it! Had a couple fields we battled that stuff every which way, once we switched from row crops to all cattle, it was gone in less than a year.

Now, if a guy wants to have a LOW stocking rate (and I mean LOW!) then natives can definitely work... that means either 1) not many momma cows, so commensurately few calves to sell, or 2) running a WHOLE LOTTA LAND to spread the cow herd he wants to run over enough acres to allow natives to work and persist... It CAN be done, but not in the "high stocking density, high production method" type grazing/agriculture we've become accustomed to... most native grasses don't respond to high fertility/additional inputs like "improved grasses" do... so it's not a matter of just "putting the coals to it" to increase production like with "improved varieties" or forages typically used in place of natives...

We have a neighbor at Shiner who got caught in a BAD drought back in the 50's and had to sell off his herd, and when he rebuilt, he's been "perennially understocked" ever since then... heck half the time you have to really LOOK to see if he's even got cattle still on the place! He didn't want to get caught with his pants down again and settled on a stocking rate probably HALF what most folks are running... he rolls a few bales just as "insurance" and to keep the cows coming to the pen I guess, but other than that, wet weather or dry, cold or temperate, he's just got them out there grazing... and usually belly-deep in grass, more or less...

So, it comes down to sharpening the pencil and figuring out what works for you... "low input/low expense" production method with commensurately smaller calf crop to sell, so less income, or "high input/high expense" improved forages in a higher-input environment supporting a larger herd, with more calves to sell, but also higher expenses to pay... Or some "blend of the two" that works for you... Not necessarily a wrong answer either way, and everybody's situation is different, goals are different, management style and resources are different, land/soils/climate is different, etc...

Later! OL JR


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Many claim "treating them like buffalo" as you refer to it can increase carrying capacity. I see no reason to doubt that. But, they are moving cattle and fencing once or twice or more per day. Works for some. Not all.

More than one way to skin a cat.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

To those who graze 12 months are you supplementing with protein in the winter?


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

deadmoose said:


> Many claim "treating them like buffalo" as you refer to it can increase carrying capacity. I see no reason to doubt that. But, they are moving cattle and fencing once or twice or more per day. Works for some. Not all.
> More than one way to skin a cat.


Yep... I understand once you get the cattle trained, it's not so bad... they seem to learn fairly quickly...

Saw some deal where they use several electric fence lines stretched across a pasture at intervals... then use some timer-based automatic releases that go off automatically and drop the wire (dead leg, so once it's released, its no longer electrified) every few hours to facilitate mob grazing or whatever...

Gotta do a new setup every day though...

Guess if you've got enough land and good watering systems, it'd probably work great! (and not running two farms 100 miles apart pretty much singlehandedly... LOL)

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Nitram said:


> To those who graze 12 months are you supplementing with protein in the winter?


We used to do the liquid molasses lick-feeders, but the old folks think that's too expensive anymore...

We do the 200 pound hard molasses blocks (tubs) and some supplement blocks along with Wind-n-rain minerals and sulfur blocks free-choice...

Later! OL JR


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

You can get by grazing during the winter where you have native grasses. Our crappy improved coastal.. Not so much. 
We don't feed much hay during the winter compared to other people. About 1-2 bales per head all winter. Not counting calves on the cows. 
The biggest deal is we graze a lot of cattle on oats and that takes a lot of pressure off hay and we do graze a lot of cattle on "standing hay." Dead coastal or native grass and most importantly liquid feed or tubs like a purina accuration product.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

I'd like to plant oats again... we used to and it really keeps the cows in top notch shape...

Now if I could convince the old folks to pay for seed... LOL

Later! OL JR


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

And now for the rest of the story.

That "Crazy" old(er) German west of San Marcos, TX, did not have any hay on his ranch. He made money with his calves starting heavier, and going off the Mama heavier. For sure going out the gate heavier!
He had a truly great calving ratio.

At the time the best rotation system was 4 pastures. So going into January - February he always had a standing native grass pasture.

His contention was he was clearing more money with the lighter stocking rate than he ever had during the "glory days" of the 1940's.

I realize his methods did not fit the management style of any of his neighbors, but he was living on his ranch and not driving a dump truck in San Antonio.

I understand a Rancher near Abilene, TX had only a boundary fence and some cowboys who road herd on his cattle. He had been raised in Florida and later in life moved to Texas.

The fellow I met in the Air Force insisted his Dad's cattle dug down into the snow and found feed.

Now I do know a nice old lady who is rather peculiar in her ways. She also just grazes but she feeds her grass a home made fertilizer. The NRCS type sampled her grass in February and as you would expect her improved bermudagrass was just straw. Her Native grasses were all above 12% CP. The exception was Tifton 85 bermudagrass. The STANDING T-85 had a better feed value than her natives.

To each their own.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

That's true haywilson... and it basically holds true for all different types of agriculture, crops and livestock alike.

I know guys that always make among the highest yields but don't have much left after paying the bills... simply because it costs so much in inputs to make those high yields... eats up all the profit.

Course, you can't sell what you don't make or raise...

Profitability lies somewhere in the middle...

Later! OL JR


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

People have a very bad misconception about gains. Foremost, the pretense it was better before fertilizer. Then why do we fertilize? For a larger yield, right there gains. We don't farm the 1950s way anymore. The arrival of tractors increase productivity, leading the way to more profits. Doing less is not more, you have to be smart about applications.

I have the perfect setup, at least so I think and everybody has an opinion. I like to think my opinion has more weight. My herd grazes year round and I feed hay in the winter. The work starts every spring with fertilizing everything. I cut pastures for hay that cows won't get to in time and also to encourage re growth before the hot summer. Pasture rotation never stops. Come fall green up, I stockpile my pastures. Dormant grasses usually have higher feed value than hay. My hay is premium stock, this stuff will never be sold. I sell the good stuff. Too high a number of 'cattleman' believe hay is a just get by forage until the spring. I stuff gains in my pocket every winter. I've noticed my weight gains actually increase in the winter compare to summer. I use mineral supplements and have used protein feed on an as needed basis.

I run a cow/calf pair for every 2 acres and feed on average 4000 pounds of hay per pair. I also use a powerful Angus bull for fast growing calves. My recent calf crop has put my recent yearlings to shame on growth rate.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

And yes I know my way works for North Carolina and will never insist my wintering program will work in South Dakota. They have to do everything to maintain to conserve cattle gains.


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

BWfarms - agree with a lot of what you say. Sounds similar to how we do things. We try to make the most out of every available acre, just because ground is competitive and hard to come by. We do a lot of rotational grazing, stockpiling fescue, drilling/grazing cover crops on crop ground, grazing crop residue, in addition to feeding hay. We try to shoot for feeding hay no more than 75-90 days/year during winter, and most years we meet that goal. Moisture permitting, we usually have enough stockpiled grass and cover crops to make it to mid-January or early February before we start feeding heavy. Then usually can taper off or stop feeding hay all together around April 1st depending how many acres of cover crops we have to graze that particular year. Works well for us. I've heard too often people say "they're just beef cows, they dont need high quality hay or forage". I totally disagree. Do they need pure alfalfa, course not. But our cows generate the money and the better inputs the get the better job they are going to do for us. I also am a big believer in having all your crop and hay ground fenced, if possible, greatly increases the carrying capacity of a cattle operation. You can stock the permanent pastures heavier than normal that way to help control the spring flush, then have the hay and crop ground to graze at other parts of the year to give the pasture a break. The rule of thumb around here is 2 acres per cow/calf pair. But we are probably close to 1-1.5 acres per pair of permanent pasture, but only because we have hay and crop ground to graze also.

The key is what works for one operation may not work for the next. And don't get locked into one single program or management style (i.e. this is how we've always done it, not going to change). We tweak things a little here and there almost every year depending a lot on weather and moisture conditions.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

The saying "there just cows they don't need good hay" Is all to common. Lots of guys around here want to buy the cheapest hay for the cattle. So guys go and buy the cheapest stuff they can, feed 40 pounds of hay per day per dry cow. Go out and buy a protein tub to help them along when things get cold. All because they are too cheap to spend a little extra money per bale on hay to get good hay that they would only have to feed 25 pounds per day with no extra protein.

I sold hay to a guy a few years ago. He had some bred heifers he just bought. Similar to my one pen of bred heifers. He was telling me they need 35 pound of feed per day and that was what he was going to feed. I told him my heifers are being self feed and eating 22-25 pounds per day depending on how cold it is and that he was going to feed his too much. He said nope they need that much. SO that is what he feed. Phoned me back up and said the cattle don't like the hay. They are wasting too much, its too coarse. Geesh I felt like hitting my head against the wall. Your feeding them too much, I said, and of course they will eat all the good stuff(leaves) and leave the stems behind. He replied, I found some cheaper hay from another guy and the heifers are eating the 35 pounds I give them, I don't need anymore hay from you.

Funny because I think he was only saving $3/1000 pound bale, but had to feed that much more. But he though he was getting ahead. The extra funny thing was that he had a chance to buy hay for that winter from me and his next years supply of hay while the price was fairly low. But guess what, the next winter the price of hay went up. I saw an online ad where he was looking for hay. I just shook my head and didn't even bother to answer his ad or call him


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Hey Trotwood, I used to be of the mentality of feeding hay about mid January was a great problem to have. Here's food for thought (literally), hay helps cattle generate heat and in turn will maintain calories to useful pounds. As I was talking about observing larger gains through the winter than I do during the July/August months. I started feeding hay in small amounts depending on the weather. This is where small squares are nice. Roughly mid November I will put hay out in advance of night temps in the thirties even though days will be in 50s. Kind of conditioning so to speak and it allows the grazing grass a better chance from washing out early.

I'm still concentrating hay in January to mid March, but the early 'treats' so to speak have paid off well. Cattle stay fat and spend more energy gaining weight and my grass has been the first to start green up by end of February. I've stayed conservative with stocking rates to 2 acres because I like insurance. I know I can get close to an acre a pair but I play it safe because of the weather. If I have extra, I'll find some steers and pocket some more.

Same here on the tweaking, an operation is no good if you're not flexible. July/August affects what I decide in September/October for the stocking through the winter. I'm even thinking of turning a few underperforming hay fields into sorghum and millet.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Interesting how thing are the same but different as you move around the country.

Coastal California mid way from LA to SF,we have no snow,rain can come from Oct to April ,10 to 20 inches ,all annual grass and clovers. We have a time from the first inch of rain until the new feed has grown to where a cow can get enough to fill up on it that some form of supplement is needed. All the good stuff is washed out of the old dry feed. Protein supplements are enough some years.From the 50's until in the 90's we feed no hay. We used a grain, protein,salt mix in self feeders. Salt limited consumption ,old dry grass added bulk to make the rumine function.The price of salt has made this much more expensive than hay feeding today.Depending what quality of hay have you may need to us protein tubes along with hay.

Add the extra dry conditions the last 4 seasons hay has been more important than ever.Many gave up altogether and sold all they cows rather than buy hay.With many local conditions it take time to get heifers to cows.Foot hill abortion ,anaplasmosas are all most successfully work around by cattle that have been exposed at a young age. So we will see who chose more wisely.


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