# New Era In Technology -- Hack Your Tractor



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Welcome to Geek World in farming: Right to repair.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/farmers-using-hacked-firmware-to-bypass-john-deeres-software-stranglehold/

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I'm no mechanic but besides trying to bypass the emissions stuff what else can you "repair" by hacking the programs? Are they just trying to read error codes?


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

AWSOME!!! And so they should!! 
If your a good tech you dont need job security because your always in demand. Your a hack... you work for a dealer so your garrenteed a victim... 
These good techs know their stuff and are the guys you want fixing your tractors.
Not that flaming retard that cant turn a wrench the proper way and charging you $200 an hour. 
I pay $190K for a tractor and am not allowed to work on it.... yeah... Smarten up Deere and all you other crooks (Cat, ha ha the IRS is on to you)


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Next thing you know the will repo your tractor if you don't buy the implements from JD.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

In my area the JD dealerships already charge $10-15 more per hour that the other colors,  for some odd reason that IDK. This just appears as away to guarantee work going to JD dealership, unfortunately taking reparability away from the farmer who is mechanically inclined as well. Hopefully, the other colors don't follow JDs lead on this one.

Larry


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

So when you buy a John Deere you have to sign a separate license agreement for the software or is it for the whole machine? I never signed anything besides a simple sales contract for my new MF last year and it has every bit of similar type of software as any JD has. I still can't figure out what your average farmer could be "fixing" by manipulating software with hack software? Can someone answer that? I can sure see changing the software to shut of the DEF system or something like that. That doesn't fall under "fixing" in my book. I think there is more to this then just saying a farmer can't work on his tractor in any way.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Your deere goes into limp mode and wont pull a sick minnow off a slippery rock and all you have is a cab full of blinking lights and beeping..... you cant find out what's wrong! Thats what this is about! You need to call the dealer and have them come out to tell you, you left the oil cap off or some stupid little thing...that took minor effort like changing a filter, to fix and a $200 service call...and the cement head tech takes 1.5hrs to figure it out.. or pull your hat over your eyes and rapes ya for $400 instead... yeah thats it...I might have a bad taste in my mouth from these crooks.. oh and it aint just big tractors either! 
Deere is involved in a class action law suit for this.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Teslan said:


> So when you buy a John Deere you have to sign a separate license agreement for the software or is it for the whole machine? I never signed anything besides a simple sales contract for my new MF last year and it has every bit of similar type of software as any JD has. I still can't figure out what your average farmer could be "fixing" by manipulating software with hack software? Can someone answer that? I can sure see changing the software to shut of the DEF system or something like that. That doesn't fall under "fixing" in my book. I think there is more to this then just saying a farmer can't work on his tractor in any way.


Unless it is something that they started recently(last 5 years) you did not sign any agreements upon purchasing other than a financial and/or delivery condition.

You cannot add simple Deere electrical items like a modulator kit for your reverser without a Deere laptop to let you into the system for installation.

Almost all engine work is somehow chip related so you have to have the Deere laptop software to enable chips and to properly time motor conditions and take the tractor out of a warning or shut down code.

It is called "shorthairs" regulations.

And it is done 100% to keep individuals from working on their own tractors....other than changing fluids, filters, and tires.

Regards, Mike


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

Teslan said:


> So when you buy a John Deere you have to sign a separate license agreement for the software or is it for the whole machine? I never signed anything besides a simple sales contract for my new MF last year and it has every bit of similar type of software as any JD has. I still can't figure out what your average farmer could be "fixing" by manipulating software with hack software? Can someone answer that? I can sure see changing the software to shut of the DEF system or something like that. That doesn't fall under "fixing" in my book. I think there is more to this then just saying a farmer can't work on his tractor in any way.


It's not so much being able to " fix" the tractor as it is just being able to determine on your own the nature of the problem.

If it's a minor thing.... Owner's would be time and money ahead if they could just switch out a bad relay or sensor.

Right now you don"t have the option of "looking behind the curtain" to see what the Wizard of Oz (John Deere) is doing to your tractor!

And if it's a major problem... You have to take the dealership at their word that the problem is exactly what they tell you it is. You have no real way to check and review what the computer has determined what/where the issue is.

Kinda like Big Brother telling you.... "Trust Us; we'll take of you"!


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

All the manufacturers then do the same thing. I don't have a $8000 Massey laptop to diagnose. They had that to trouble shoot an issue with our little mf 1759 a couple years ago. I'm not sure I would trust some code from some guy off a forum either.


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

Teslan said:


> All the manufacturers then do the same thing. I don't have a $8000 Massey laptop to diagnose. They had that to trouble shoot an issue with our little mf 1759 a couple years ago. I'm not sure I would trust some code from some guy off a forum either.


No argument there... Be a healthier business relationship if the codes and/or the code readers were like the truck and car industry.

Open Source - you have access and knowledge of how YOUR tractor is operating - or not operating...

'Course, the manufacturers have way more control than the auto industry and maybe this situation windsdownthe rabbit hole and ends up in Volkswagon's parking lot! LOL


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

The only way around Deere's and others Lording, is to be good friends with a Service Technician that makes service calls and regularly carries the Deere software/laptop in his truck.....and "forgets" to take it out of his truck over the weekend. I have "heard" of that happening in a couple of instances. 

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

One can certainly see both sides of this equation if the look is deep enough and non-biased. The answer is not very simple....software will always be a problem until it's addressed in the courts. This holds true in a lot of industries, doesn't have to be motor vehicle related. Copyrights vs patents is a blurred line nowadays.....


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

In the auto industry it was OBD then OBDII(2) and the governments all agreed to force all mfg'ers to standardize or it can't be sold in the US or Europe! This proved very good for everyone. I don't get why the tractor guys think they can get away with this? It will catch up up sooner or later and then they will probably get caught cheating when it does. LOL
Deere was the follower on this by the way.. Cat started it Way back in the late 80s with their excavators and such..


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

My magnum 8950 looks better and better ever day .no wonder the old girls are going up in price.can you imagine how these shonky manufacturer are going to carve us up.the young blokes in dealers are flat out changing a filter let alone rebuild a motor.give them a laptop they can tell you what's wrong with it


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

Deere, CNH companies have many lessons to learn in the software arena. They are trying to protect their R&D investment in what they call, Proprietary Intelligence. Through the years of software and firmware development, many companies like Apple and Microsoft have done the same thing. They did not invent all the software they own. They bought and even stole it from many other companies that actually invented it. Deere is trying to control ownership of the software technology, there by allowing only authorized Deere affiliates to do the the repairs. This never works. This mode of thinking provokes other companies and individuals to Hack or backwards engineer their technology.

The end result, you get open based operating systems like Android. Lots of people contribute to a very robust end product. If Deere stands by there current thinking, they will eventually lose customers and market share, while other up start companies, grow from their mistakes. People feel that when they buy something, they own it and can do what they want with it. Deere has made their fortunes from an audience of very independent farmers. they should know how this going to end.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Intellectual Property rights are a BIG area of control issues nowadays. Back in the early 90's, I copyrighted some software because patents on software were not available. Around 1999, a competitive company patented their software for everything! And I mean everything--like being able to select font size, foreground and background color.

I sold my system to another company and, two years later, the competitor sued the company I sold to, for patent infringement! And won!

Copyright vs patent on software is very problematic. Personally, I don't think anyone should be able to patent software. Copyright--yes.

Ralph


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Some have asked why does anyone need or want to change equipment software? Here's an example. My brother bought a Cat 226D skid steer 15 months ago. It has the choice of 2 control patterns, Cat or Case, very easily selectable. These machine are completely fly by wire. You are telling a computer what you want the machine to do. For whatever reason, in the Case pattern which we prefer, having always had Cases, the machine will lose a lot of ground speed during a turn. It does not do this in the Cat pattern. We complained, Cat acknowledged a problem, said there was a fix coming. That was a year ago . . .


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Another fly-by-wire example:

Just finished hauling my horse about 4000 miles. The steering on my 2016 F150 is worse than a 25 year old truck with worn out shocks, ball joints and steering box. Tends to wonder all over the place. Going down the road required constant corrections back and forth. It felt like there was about 2" of slop in the steering. Truck only has 13,000 miles on it now.

With older power steering or mechanical steering models, you could find "center" and the vehicle would pretty much stay on course.

At this time, I cannot recommend anyone buying a F150 because I simply don't like or trust their electronic steering.

Ralph


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> Intellectual Property rights are a BIG area of control issues nowadays. Back in the early 90's, I copyrighted some software because patents on software were not available. Around 1999, a competitive company patented their software for everything! And I mean everything--like being able to select font size, foreground and background color.
> 
> I sold my system to another company and, two years later, the competitor sued the company I sold to, for patent infringement! And won!
> 
> ...


Or genes, for that matter...

But that's another topic...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> Another fly-by-wire example:
> 
> Just finished hauling my horse about 4000 miles. The steering on my 2016 F150 is worse than a 25 year old truck with worn out shocks, ball joints and steering box. Tends to wonder all over the place. Going down the road required constant corrections back and forth. It felt like there was about 2" of slop in the steering. Truck only has 13,000 miles on it now.
> 
> ...


Same thing with the throttle on mom's new minivans... [email protected] stupid drive-by-wire crap is TOTALLY unpredictable...

I try to drive it like the old 2005 van with a throttle cable from the pedal to the throttle body... no good... the stupid thing, you hit the pedal, mash it down an inch or two, and NOTHING HAPPENS... takes off like a limp mouse under the hood... you have to mash the pedal down to an inch off the floor before the thing shows ANY pep whatsoever, then the stupid computer-controlled 6 speed slush box drops 2 gears at once and revs the engine like a jet, eliciting no shortage of griping from the boss... "Not my fault-- blame the STUPID COMPUTERS!!!"

Give me manual controls ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday... I just don't like new vehicles, PERIOD... the computer controlled automatics are bad enough...

My old 77 Suburban with a fully hydraulically controlled automatic, I could drive that thing... mash the pedal to the EXACT POINT that you could kick in all four barrels on the 454 carburetor without pushing it far enough to activate the kickdown linkage to the transmission and drop to a lower gear... she had plenty of power to take off without winding the motor out the gazoo...

Now they're putting 6 speed computer controlled slush boxes behind these drive-by-wire engines and you can't outguess what the stupid computer is going to do next... I drive by "feel" and how far I mash the pedal does "X, Y, and/or Z" with repeatability... but not on these new idiot box controlled drive-by-wire crapwagons...

Now they're doing the same to the steering-- NO THANKS. They can keep it... think I'm going to buy a late 80's truck and rebuild it stem to stern-- I can do a frame-off restoration with all-new power train and STILL be a FRACTION of the cost of a new truck, and it be WAY more driveable, fixable, and reliable...

I saw something on the news the other day that now people can "hack" your vehicle while you're driving it... they had a guy in a Jeep SUV or something and some guy hacking on the computer and had it speeding up and slowing down IRREGARDLESS of the driver inputs-- the driver couldn't shut the motor off, but the computer hacker could... even start it at random... (shades of "Christine" anyone?) heck they can even OVERRIDE the driver's steering inputs and steer the vehicle at random...

Nope, no thanks... I'll go Amish and get a horse n buggy first...

Later! OL J R


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

Driverless cars and tractors and who knows what else.and cashless monies.what happens when the great computer in the sky runs out of power.At the moment in queensland,a tropical cyclone (same as hurricane but spins in the other direction ) has knock out a big chuck of power, no cold beer no petrol,no monies from the hole in the wall.so what happens when jd you beaut soft Weare dies or has a heart attack. You go over to old girl put the battery in,fire up the none egr political correct motor .don't get me wrong we have to have advancementioned otherwise we would still be driving model ts. How many times has the light come on and it's a sensor


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

I'm not against "upgrades" that actually DO something, add some VALUE to the operation by increasing speed or accuracy or fuel efficiency or power or output or production or whatever, but NONE of the stupid emissions crap do ANY of that; and all the overcomplicated computer crap really does is ensure that it goes wonky a lot faster and leaves you stuck calling them to come get it working.

As Mr. Scott said in Star Trek III, "the more they overdo the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain..." Truer words were never spoken!

Later! OL J R


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

rjmoses said:


> Another fly-by-wire example:
> 
> Just finished hauling my horse about 4000 miles. The steering on my 2016 F150 is worse than a 25 year old truck with worn out shocks, ball joints and steering box. Tends to wonder all over the place. Going down the road required constant corrections back and forth. It felt like there was about 2" of slop in the steering. Truck only has 13,000 miles on it now.
> 
> ...


 My 2016 Chevy Silverado 1500 crewcab has the same type steering and I have 14k on it. I tow constantly 5-9k# with it. And I have never felt the steering was sloppy feeling. The rack on our rigs is still mechanically connected to the steering wheel so if your front feels wonky towing.. you have a hitch/load issue your truck doesnt like.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

skyrydr2 said:


> if your front feels wonky towing.. you have a hitch/load issue your truck doesnt like.


Could be....and I would certainly look under the trailer to make sure something was not going on with it. And if you have a radial tire that has broken the belting it will cause severe wandering during towing.

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Vol said:


> Could be....and I would certainly look under the trailer to make sure something was not going on with it. And if you have a radial tire that has broken the belting it will cause severe wandering during towing.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Two round trips from St. Louis to Ocala, Fl.

I thought the same thing about a belt after 1000 miles and found one that was just starting to come apart--about a 1" section. Put a brand new set of tires on the trailer (all 4) and still have the same problem.

First 1000 miles, I hauled one horse in the front stall of a 3 horse trailer with 7 bales of hay in the front tack room. Return trip (1000 miles), no hay, horse in front stall, new trailer tires---scary bad, especially going through the mountains west of Chattanooga on I-24.

Second trip, loaded horse in middle stall, 8 bales of hay. Return, same load--two bales in front. Better but still wanders.

Considered that maybe horse was moving around--nope.

The truck just feels like it can't hold a line. Drifts left, I correct then it wants to drift right. It feels like there is 1-2" of play in the steering wheel.

This seems to be related to the EPAS (Electronic Power Assisted Steering) adaptive feedback.

From http://articles.sae.org/8912/(While this article applies to 2011 F150's, I think it is the best explanation of Ford electronic steering I have found.)

All software is within the ECU, including speed variable assist, pull-drift compensation, and active nibble control.

"Ford's exclusive active nibble control is similar in concept to noise-canceling headphones but acts on tactile vibrations, sensing small amplitude, high-frequency torque disturbances from rough road surfaces and providing corresponding steering assist to prevent torque disturbances at the steering wheel," explained Smith.

Pull-drift compensation is provided by the EPAS system's adaptive controls.

"*Above a certain speed and when driving straight ahead, a steady-state torque is calculated. A corresponding assist torque is then provided by the EPAS motor, relieving the driver of that [steering] effort," explained Smith.* (Bold is my emphasis.)

Now, I'm wondering if maybe I'm just too heavy handed on the wheel from all those years of driving vehicles without power steering.

Or, maybe Ford has a software problem. Naaah!

Ralph


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Vol said:


> Unless it is something that they started recently(last 5 years) you did not sign any agreements upon purchasing other than a financial and/or delivery condition.
> 
> You cannot add simple Deere electrical items like a modulator kit for your reverser without a Deere laptop to let you into the system for installation.
> 
> ...


Give it time, sooner or later all filters will have a sensor in them with it's own unique ID code, change the filter yourself and it will shut down as the laptop didn't approve the filter change.

Dell (used to or still does) pulled the same crap with their ink cartridges, no point in refilling as the printer remembered the cartridge ID and wouldn't print even though the cartridge was full.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Our salesman has a 2015 Malibu. I just got an email from the dealer today saying we need to schedule an oil change. The oil life is down to 17.1%. The car doesn't have onstar on, but apparently it contacts the dealer when an oil change is getting close...craziness...just crazy... talk about invasion of privacy..


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

PaMike said:


> Our salesman has a 2015 Malibu. I just got an email from the dealer today saying we need to schedule an oil change. The oil life is down to 17.1%. The car doesn't have onstar on, but apparently it contacts the dealer when an oil change is getting close...craziness...just crazy... talk about invasion of privacy..


Does that car supposedly also require GMs special oil?


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Someone allowed the car to notify the dealer when setting up the free onstar account. 
Also,if you didn't buy that car outright and have a loan on it, its theirs until its paid for (who ever the note is through) and they are looking after their property just in case, traded in or returned on a lease. Its also good for resale purposes for the private sector. I have a 2016 silverado and it doesnt happen to me and mine is leased.


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