# Orchard Grass - The Best All Round Hay????



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

While I'm waiting for the snow to melt around here, I've been doing some reading about various grasses and legume varieties. It is interesting the trade-offs in growing different varieties from end use to time to cut/dry to insect problems.

Timothy - one, maybe two cuts. Cereal rust mites can require spraying.

Clover - high protein, can make a horse slobber.

Alfalfa - high protein, may be plagued with blister beatles, which I gather is not good for horses.

Fescue - robust, high yields, great for cows - horse folks don't seem to care for it.

The above are some grasses, legumes that are in a 60 mile radius of me.

There is one other - orchard grass.

Is this the best all round variety of hay one can grow? Good yields, cows/horses owner's like it. Mixes well with some red clover, doesn't require any insect spraying (correct me on this if I'm wrong) - aside from lime and fertilizer demands, pretty much a maintenance free hay?

What is your opinion of orchard grass?

Thanks!
Bill


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I suppose it would depend on the area climate. Orchard grass does not do well in our summer heat.

Here in the south Bermuda is the king of hay.

Fescue is a good all around grass. The endophyte friendly fescue is safe for horses. It may take the horse crowd a few generations to discover that.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I think the negative that you need to add to orchard grass is timing of first cutting. It seems that here it's rarely possible to make first cutting as early as it should be. Of course, if you're selling to horses, a little age to it isn't as critical as long as it still looks green.


----------



## Don Pine (Feb 2, 2012)

You have blister beetles in VA? I thought they were a penance for the guys out west due to their great hay curing weather. ;-)

With fescue, it's my understanding that around "here" that even if you establish one of the endophyte friendly varieties, there's so much native fescue around that it won't be friendly for very long.

It's hard to beat orchard grass -IF- you can get that first cutting put up on time. Around here we can't 8 of 10 years (I'm along the I-70 corridor). So 60% or more of our OG crop is usually rank, unpalatable and nutrient deficient.

I'm going to convert my home fields to meadow fescue this year. From the information I've found (and there doesn't seem to be a lot of it on meadow fescue), it doesn't get nearly as rank as OG with a late cutting, and it yields nearly as well.

Just some thoughts from my neck of the woods.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

You could also look into brome grass or rye grass. Fescue in my area is very hardy. But does not yeild worth a darn. All the run down pastures around here are just native fescue and it yeilds maybe 1/3 of other grasses at best.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

"Late" Orchard grass varieties have helped immensely with getting Orchard grass harvested before getting "too" mature. I do not think for most folks that these later varieties get "rank"....they can get mature before conditions allow harvesting but not nearly as bad as the older earlier varieties. Orchard grass is very flexible but cannot tolerate the heat and drought of the deep South.....it can tolerate heat better than drought....the combination is deadly.....and if you happen to be a little short on Potash it is certain death.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Don Pine said:


> With fescue, it's my understanding that around "here" that even if you establish one of the endophyte friendly varieties, there's so much native fescue around that it won't be friendly for very long.


The harmful endophyte is contain to the plant. It does not spread to other fescue plants. If the seeds from an infected plant germinate that plant will have the same ergot fungus as the parent plant.

Drilling endophyte friendly fescue into an established infected field will not convert the field to friendly nor will endophyte friendly convert to an ergot contaminated field.


----------



## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

We moved away from orchard. It's a great grass for yield but is difficult to dry and matures too early we're planting corn when its ready to chop or bale.Some of our ground is too wet for it. Later cuttings are difficult to dry but make great grazing.

We've been using reed canary grass as our main grass mixed with timothy and clover. Clover dies out as the reed canary is up and growing. Takes awhile to get established well but yeilds comparable to orchard. Quickest drying grass there is, matures a bit later than orchard, thrives on wet ground and is also very drought tolerant. Gotta leave a minimum of a four inch stubble or it'll die out. Our cows seem to like it and do well on it. The newer varieties are more palatable


----------



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

leeave96 said:


> While I'm waiting for the snow to melt around here, I've been doing some reading about various grasses and legume varieties. It is interesting the trade-offs in growing different varieties from end use to time to cut/dry to insect problems.
> Timothy - one, maybe two cuts. Cereal rust mites can require spraying.
> Clover - high protein, can make a horse slobber.
> Alfalfa - high protein, may be plagued with blister beatles, which I gather is not good for horses.
> ...


 Your about right on with timothy.....1 big cutting and if your lucky a very light 2nd cutting if the summer is not too dry. Short lived stands here.....2-3 years. Doesnt do well in the heat or drought.....main reason it is a 1 cut deal here. Highly desirable for horse hay. Mites aren't a problem here yet.

Biggest problem I have with clover is it is hard to get dry.....worse than alfalfa. Then when it is dry it doesn't have a very good color and people don't like it.

Alfalfa is a high maintenance crop......blister beetles aren't a big concern here but there is weevils, leafhoppers, aphids, and the list goes on. You will have to spray insecticide at least once a year if not 3-4 times. More difficult to dry than grass and then have to worry about leaf loss if it gets too dry at baling time. 4-5 cuts here.

Fescue......I wouldn't plant endophyte infected fescue period. Horse people don't want it for a good reason.....it can cause big problems for pregnant mares. It is just as bad of a problem in cattle and actually non breeding horses seem to fare much better on it than non breeding cattle do. The only benefit to fescue is that it is very tough and resilient but the negatives greatly outweigh that positive. Endophyte friendly fescue seems to be real good but a lot of people aren't familiar with its benefits and the fescue name turns them away.

Orchard grass......large first cutting and with normal rainfall during the summer it will give a good 2nd and many times a 3rd cutting of soft grass hay. By using a later maturing variety you can get around the early maturity of many orchard varieties. A good all around and desirable horse feed.....especially the soft later cuttings. More persistent and longer lived than timothy. The biggest downside to orchard here in the south is that in the heat of the summer it doesn't do well and if you get in a bad drought there is a good chance you could lose the stand.

I would have to say that for a lower maintenance hay that will give the best yields of a good quality hay with multiple cuttings orchard grass would be the way to go. Endophyte friendly fescue would be a good choice as well but then you run into the issue of not many people are aware that it doesn't have the negatives that regular infected fescue has.


----------



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Thanks everyone for your replies - very good info!

Just watching most everyone around my neck of the woods - in my travels, is that they are usually cutting in mid to late June. Sometimes later - all for a first cut. You can see the hay has gone to seed and while the yields are large, IMHO, the quality is not.

The other thing that jumps out at me (again in my neck of the woods) is that through May, while there might be some rain fronts moving through, thunderstorms generally don't move on the scene until June. My thoughts have been to make my first cut mid May-ish. It's a little cooler than June, but IMHO the window of opportunity is greater. Once the thunderstorms move-in, around here, you're lucky to get a 3/4 day span to cut hay without rain.

Thanks again,

Bill


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

leeave96 said:


> Thanks everyone for your replies - very good info!
> 
> Just watching most everyone around my neck of the woods - in my travels, is that they are usually cutting in mid to late June. Sometimes later - all for a first cut. You can see the hay has gone to seed and while the yields are large, IMHO, the quality is not.
> 
> ...


It can be difficult to get hay dry in early to mid-May....and I would expect this to be the case in your area....you might want to invest in a preservative applicator and use preservative.....you should be able to get the hay down to 25% moisture and then bale....but you will also need a moisture monitor. 

Making hay consistently and correctly is not cheap.

Regards, Mike


----------



## CaseIH84 (Jun 16, 2013)

We always shoot for Memorial Day weekend as our starting point. It has worked out for us the last few years. You do need good five day stretch. I agree with Mike about the preservative and moisture meter. They do help tremendously.


----------



## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

I think orchard grass is pretty good, but in my neck of the woods it can be hard to get it mowed and dried as early as it matures. Most of the people growing it are planting it with alfalfa and chopping it for silage. The timothy I grow matures later than orchard grass, but I can still get two cuttings a year off it (assuming Mother Nature lets me). There is an earlier maturing variety of timothy I may try the next time I reseed a field and I'm hoping to get three cuttings off that, but we'll see. Part of the reason I'm planing on trying a different variety is that I'm getting to the point where I have so much hay maturing at the same time that I can't get it all done fast enough. If the earlier timothy variety doesn't work, I'll probably switch over and try an orchard grass variety.

Typically we start mowing in early to mid-June, but it usually depends on the weather. May is usually a nice warm month, but between the ground being wet from snow melt and the hay being too immature to get a good yield, starting any earlier usually doesn't work out.

Of coarse, if the weather stays like it has been for the last two years, I'll be trying to figure out what the best type of rice is to make hay with.


----------



## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

I like orchard grass myself. Around here most hobby guys like me just do native grasses that aren't fertilized or anything. I can usually put it up the last week of May or first week of June and get a jump on the competition as theirs won't be ready until the end of June or so.

I do however get asked if my orchard grass hay is really the grass from my orchards! It's not, the grass in the orchards is fescue and hard to dry since it's always in the shade unless it's noon.


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

I think it depends on your land. I personally prefer Timothy but we have more hills with red dirt than low land. Orchard grass won't stand dry weather and it looks like stands don't have the staying power that it used to have. Clover will straight up yield but hard to cure and sell. I had some forage analysis done and the prettiest orchard grass 1st cutting you ever saw was made in late May tested lower in protein than fescue with a little clover that was cut on 4th of July and that was 1st cutting. Extension agent said that orchard grass will drop serious quality in just days where fescue will drop but start to gain back later in season. Timothy will certainly degrade in quality to but I like how it's ready later than other grass and gives monster yields. It's not as ph sensitive as orchard grass either. Alfalfa yields good but high maintenance. You must be over in the valley so I would focus on the dairy market. We send alot of hay to Harrisonburg/Broadway/Elkton/Staunton areas. 
Can't forget about Dayton/Bridgewater either. In those areas alfalfa or alfalfa orchard grass mix is king, pure orchard grass and or Timothy are queen. 
That's my experience and humble opinion


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bgriffin856 said:


> We moved away from orchard. It's a great grass for yield but is difficult to dry and matures too early we're planting corn when its ready to chop or bale.Some of our ground is too wet for it. Later cuttings are difficult to dry but make great grazing.
> We've been using reed canary grass as our main grass mixed with timothy and clover. Clover dies out as the reed canary is up and growing. Takes awhile to get established well but yeilds comparable to orchard. Quickest drying grass there is, matures a bit later than orchard, thrives on wet ground and is also very drought tolerant. Gotta leave a minimum of a four inch stubble or it'll die out. Our cows seem to like it and do well on it. The newer varieties are more palatable


Ain't it great? I lucked into a 30 acre stand and it's my highest yielding field. 
Only thing I don't like is it has some stemminess that visually turns some buyers off. Great hay for cattle in my area. 
Super tough/hearty grass that grows thick and tall.


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

I'll also mention eastern gamma grass, I've got a rented farm that has some of that growing. Cows love it and it is very drought tolerant. Seed is expensive and slow to establish. I also like Johnson grass if it was for strictly for my own use. Alot of cattle guys prefer it to other grasses but you can play hell selling it.

Here is a funny story about horse people, I had a lady come to buy some orchard grass ( it was good hay but bleached some from being in pole building) and right beside it had a bay of nothing but pure Johnson grass ( cut about waste high , not stalky) I had just put under roof day or so before she came, it was green as poison and sweet smelling. She saw that and had to have it and asked if it was same price as orchard ($200 ton) I replied that for her I would do that. She bought whole bay of shed and some of the orchard grass to but said the horses preferred the Johnson grass to orchard grass. We had a 567 deere baler than and those bales always weighed around 1500 lbs so I made around $150 bale on Johnson grass hay lol
Gotta love horse people nobody else would do that.


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

We typically don't get into any straight OG, usually just A/O mixes. Tough to get it harvested timely while there is still decent nutritional value. Even late maturing varieties like Pennlate are tough to harvest early. Drying weather is pretty shatty around here in southcentral PA during mid-May when it should be harvested. Most 1st cut OG hay is chopped for haylage or made into baleage. Later cuttings make great horse hay. Timothy works best for us, no problems with mites (knock on wood). Best way to combat mites, besides spraying Sevin, is to build the sugar up in your Timothy. Mites digestive tract can't handle the higher sugar levels.


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

We plant Potomac orchard grass and I think care timothy


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

If my memory serves me right, I believe Potomac matures 1-2 weeks earlier than Pennlate. Can't say I've heard of the Care variety...


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Clair timothy?


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

Yes clair, damn auto correct on phone lol


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

Va tech has a research station here in orange and going by trials Potomac seems to do the best in our area, I believe it is also more of a old breed so seems a little hardier. Clair is also best for our area going on extension agent advice, but I do know from experience that 20 lbs to acre does better than 12.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Yes, Clair and Potomac are two older varieties and have several very desirable characteristics, but the early maturity of Potomac Orchard is a big turn-off for me....like mentioned above, it just comes way too early to be able to harvest at the best protein level for many locales. It might work just fine in VA but not so much here.

Regards, Mike


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

I agree with you on maturity date but for stand livability Potomac seems to work best for us, but still doesn't seem to last as long as it used to. I remember as a kid my father and grandfather used to hardly ever reseed any land,now we do it every few years, fertilizer looks like it used to last longer to, now after 1st cutting it's gone, that's why I like litter. But I swear grass seed and chemical fertilizer does not seem to last like it did 20 years ago.


----------



## Amelia Farms (May 16, 2012)

Last year was my first year with orchard grass (Persist) here in central Piedmont NC. I found it to be harder to dry than a comparable cut of fescue, and the yield not quite as good, probably about 80% what fescue yields. We had good rains here last summer, so I got 3 cuts, normally would not expect that here.

Pricewise, I sold out as soon as I could cut it at $7.00/bale (small squares), could have gotten more if I had stored it and waited to sell it this winter. I get $4.00/bale for fescue, so it seems to be worth the extra effort.

I am gonna plant another 10 acres as soon as dries out enough to get in the fields.


----------



## OneManShow (Mar 17, 2009)

The best? Depends on where you are. Here, late maturing varities of orchard grass work great for us (Athos, LG31, Intensiv and a couple others). Early maturing varieties are useless to us for hay since spring here is often cold wet and late. The late varieties seem to establish slower, and we have had decent results using annual rye as a nurse crop, since the orchard doesn't do much the first year on dry land.

Late maturing timothy does well here too. It will yield from 4.5 to 5.5 ton/acre for 2-3 years then it falls off dramatically. It is nice that it will grow well on soils that might lean toward acidic, so we don't have to throw $$$ at our rented ground to get stuff to grow. Lime was $67/ton delivered and spread last fall and it adds up quick.

We plant a mix of orchard, perennial rye and festulolium (rye/fescue hybrid) that has become a favorite of even our fussiest customers. We sell out of it early. I will plant some more of it this fall.

We will not plant forage fescue. If I utter the word fescue around any horse owner when I am answering questions about hay, I may as well have told them I have baled horse poison for sale. I have tried to educate them on endophyte, and the difference between turf and forage varieties of fescue but I have not been successful. It really isn't that important to me to grow fescue, it does stay green longer and handle more stress than the most other grasses, but if I can't sell it, easily then I might as well move on.

Annual rye grass has done well for us too. It makes an ugly bale, but is is palatable and can be super nutritious. We have some horse folks who turned their noses up its looks but now it is all they buy.

So dry here I am getting ready to plant 20 acres of timothy. It was nearly 70 yesterday-in March, which is normally absolutely horrible here.

Best to all-

M


----------



## central va farmer (Feb 14, 2015)

That lime seems pricey got to put a ton down to acre on 50 acres if it ever dries up gonna put in some more alfalfa lime is $32 a ton spread if I load the spreader trucks. Round up ready alfalfa is $255 a bag. That's neat your planting timothy in spring, around here try to do it in the fall. I've always wanted to try spring but the "experts" say it can't be done.


----------



## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

We seeded a timothy tall fescue mix and it turned out great. Timothy is the predominate grass apperence wise in first cutting and fescue is predominate in later cuttings though it might be a bit lighter than a straight fescue seeding.


----------



## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Ain't it great? I lucked into a 30 acre stand and it's my highest yielding field.
> Only thing I don't like is it has some stemminess that visually turns some buyers off. Great hay for cattle in my area.
> Super tough/hearty grass that grows thick and tall.


Yeah our nutritionalist dislikes and bad mouths it to no end. But hey he isn't the one farming


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bgriffin856 said:


> Yeah our nutritionalist dislikes and bad mouths it to no end. But hey he isn't the one farming


Tell your nutritionalist I just ate 3 nice big beef burritos made from my neighbors cattle, fed with my reeds canary/orchard grass mix.
Some of the best ground beef I've ever had.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Jd what did he finish them on?


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> Jd what did he finish them on?


Nothing. He hauled them off in October for slaughter. They ate my hay fall& winter, grass off the ground spring and summer and a bowlful of cereal oats in the morning.

Made the beef from the supermarket taste like styrofoam.


----------



## OneManShow (Mar 17, 2009)

central va farmer said:


> That lime seems pricey got to put a ton down to acre on 50 acres if it ever dries up gonna put in some more alfalfa lime is $32 a ton spread if I load the spreader trucks. Round up ready alfalfa is $255 a bag. That's neat your planting timothy in spring, around here try to do it in the fall. I've always wanted to try spring but the "experts" say it can't be done.


The lime seems expensive to me too. There is a lot of line applied here as we are in area that grows tremendous amounts of grass seed and decent pH is critical. If lime was $32/ ton here I would throw a party. We use dolomite lime that is about the consistency of flour. It is spread with a purpose built buggy and the trucks and trailers that haul it in bulk are like the dry commodity trailers used to haul portland cement and other powdered stuff. Even ten years ago we were paying around $57/ton. 
Spring planting grasses and legumes is common here. Although most annual rye, oats and wheat seem to go in in the fall. Our soils are heavy clay and they stay moist enough to bring seed along well. I know some folks who will only plant dryland alfalfa in spring, as they believe the roots develop much better and run deeper than fall planted alfalfa. Might be some truth to it but the roots of fall planted would follow soil moisture down as the soil dries in the spring/summer just the same.
Regards,

Mike


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Wish I could seed my fields now. I just spread about 1" of compost on all my fields. Seems like seed would do well.

Dont know if seedlings would hold with existing grass competition and tractors on the fields in mid May for first cut?????

Going to seed bare spots left over from where compost was piled.

It would be so easy to hit the rest of the fields with some O/Tim mix!


----------



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

All the above proves to me that we each have our own better and best grass hay. Each with its own advantages and disadvantages.

About the only clover that works here is alfalfa. The queen of the hay world but it also has it's problems, and misconceptions.

It is sad but it is also true that we can put up sorry hay that looks great as well as good hay that looks sorry.

One misconception I run into often regards the blister beetle and the alfalfa. 
Now there is no location in the whole world that will not have blister beetles. If there are grass hoppers, the food of choice for the baby beetles, and flowering plants, the food of choice for adult beetles.
I have probably heard every horror story and believed each of them. 
In short the poison from 50 to 100 beetles will kill a 1000 lb animal. If 50 beetle will kill a 1,000 lb horse or cow, 5 beetles will kill a 100 lb sheep or goat. may take two to kill your wife but that is another story.

Now a horse will die from Colic before it dies from the poison which makes the horse owners all excited.

Most dairy cows will not die but they will go off feed for a number of weeks which will cause economic distress by their owners. I sell alfalfa to the Goat Dairy types and a few actually know what the critter can do for their milk check.

The beetle lives in the ground eating grasshopper eggs. When they are mature they come out of the ground looking to reproduce. There they do not need protein but they need energy to fly around looking for the opposite sex. Alfalfa tends to be in large fields and will put out a ton of blooms. No Alfalfa blooms they look for an alternative. Probably Night Shade blooms.

HERE the beetles come out looking for sex after 15 June. Here we put up half or alfalfa before that date.
Their poison is in their blood.
So after the first of June I cut my hay with a simple disk mower. 
They like to hang around in bunches. You can see then sitting on the hay several rounds before getting there. When I get to their aggregation I simply pick up the mower and leave them alone. Picking up the mower is simply a marker for me as I am not squashing the beetles with a mower but my tires can squash them.
At night they like to put up in a windrow. So I do not bale at night after dark.

So if you find anyone who will insist they get their hay from a desert mountain valley they may be misinformed or a liar, *but there is no place that is beetle free*.


----------



## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

*"...but there is no place that is beetle free..."*

Bill, I assume that you are referring to Blister Beetle. I grew up west of San Antonio, and to keep us kids out of trouble when it rained on that high shrink/swell black soil we had to pull weeds around the farmstead because we couldn't get to the fields to work. Sometimes the weeds contained blister beetle and we got blisters on our arms, so I know what blister beetle looks like- particularly the gray version. Now I have to tell you that on as many as 24 alfalfa research plots, including five on-farm demonstrations up to as much as 8 acres in the counties surrounding Overton, TX, I did not see any blister beetle. Isolated cases, perhaps, but in the first year of my own 8+ acre alfalfa patch in northeastern Smith County, I still have not seen a blister beetle (knock on wood). We have grasshoppers but so far nothing severe. You are right at least 99% of the time, but I hope you keep being wrong on this one...

By the way, in keeping with the theme of this Thread, I know a forage physiologist who claims that the "Queen of Forages" has a new King, and it is Tifton 85 bermudagrass here in the southern states..


----------



## Whitehouse Farms (Feb 19, 2014)

We have sold over 500 truck loads of Orchard Grass in most central states and Texas. We have found that it fits most operations well. We do sell some Bermuda mostly in Texas and Oklahoma. We do haul hay for others from most any state and have found Orchard Grass on more loads than any other grass. http://tnhay4horses.blogspot.com/


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Another thing the "newer" varieties of Orchard grass have going for them is that they do not "clump" and thin out near as bad as some of the more traditional varieties.

Regards, Mike


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Vol said:


> Another thing the "newer" varieties of Orchard grass have going for them is that they do not "clump" and thin out near as bad as some of the more traditional varieties.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Isn't OG a bunch-type grass though?


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

PaCustomBaler said:


> Isn't OG a bunch-type grass though?


It sure is, but these newer varieties have been developed to not "die out" and bunch like the older varieties....they still will but not as much. The good thing about bunching and thinning is a fella can run a rotary hoe over the field in the fall and add Timothy or some other to it or add more orchard grass with the thinning.

Regards, Mike


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Copy. Cool profile pic btw!


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol said:


> It sure is, but these newer varieties have been developed to not "die out" and bunch like the older varieties....they still will but not as much. The good thing about bunching and thinning is a fella can run a rotary hoe over the field in the fall and add Timothy or some other to it or add more orchard grass with the thinning.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Hmmmm, "rotary hoe".

I have access to one of these and always wondered what it did.

So one runs the rotary hoe over a existing stand in the fall, then overseeds with T/O grass mix??


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> Hmmmm, "rotary hoe".
> 
> I have access to one of these and always wondered what it did.
> 
> So one runs the rotary hoe over a existing stand in the fall, then overseeds with T/O grass mix??


Yep, maybe have to run over it twice but you can run at pretty good clip. Seed, pack it down.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

PaCustomBaler said:


> Copy. Cool profile pic btw!


Thanks....my two sons with their ladyfriends....and my yellow Lab "Cody".... and myself on the right....cannot really tell it, but there are 5 limits of Doves in the back of the Terex in front of Cody....75 birds. It was a good September afternoon shoot. They taste great when you grill them....maybe marinate for 24 hours in some Teriyaki or put a little "Q" sauce on them. Yum!

Regards, Mike


----------



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Don Pine said:


> You have blister beetles in VA?


Don't know. But just in reading about them, it sounds like a potential hazard. Another trip across the field with the tractor - spraying with chemicals that eat into the margin. Cuts into available time too.



vhaby said:


> *"...but there is no place that is beetle free..."*
> 
> Bill, I assume that you are referring to Blister Beetle.


Yes



Vol said:


> It sure is, but these newer varieties have been developed to not "die out" and bunch like the older varieties....they still will but not as much. The good thing about bunching and thinning is a fella can run a rotary hoe over the field in the fall and add Timothy or some other to it or add more orchard grass with the thinning.


A couple of questions:

If you are running a rotary hoe across and otherwise established hay field, is that any different than taking a tandem disk and running fairly with minimal cut - such that you are making small slits in the ground where/when you sow grass seed, it has clevis in which to land? Same for fertilizer and lime?

I was kind of the impression that disturbing the top crust of the soil could unleash seed from other grasses/weeds that would otherwise remain dormant. What about just damaging the grass stand you already have?

I've thought about lightly running a disc on my fields - if just for nothing else, scratching the surface for some lime penetration and down the road, to help with overseeding/frost seeding.

Just to keep my own thread on topic - can you successfully over seed orchard grass into a field?

Thanks!

Bill


----------



## wabn8c (Mar 2, 2015)

Leeave96:

I grew up farming with my dad, and I have used both a disk and a rotary hoe for row crop (not hay) purposes. We always used a rotary hoe to run across a newly planted field that had received a heavy rain, where the plants had not yet emerged from the ground. The rotary hoe would break up the top 1/2" of compacted soil so that the seedlings could emerge. FYI- our soils here in west TN are a fine loess, and typically become as hard as concrete following a heavy, quick 2-3" rain. In sum, the rotary hoe will break up and loosen the top 1/2" of soil while causing minimal damage to plants above or below ground. We grew a lot of cotton, which can be a delicate crop in the first month of growth. If a rotary hoe can loosen the soil around cotton plants without killing it, it's probably not going to hurt most stands of grasses. Also, the faster you run a rotary hoe, the better job it does. Probably one of few farm implements in which that is the case! It also doesn't take a lot of horsepower to run one, even a larger one (20-25' wide).

As for a disk, you could possibly get the same result if you're careful. However a disk is more likely to damage your grass and rough up your field from the front outer blades kicking out clods and rear outer blades butting a channel each pass. Running a do all or harrow afterward could fix this, but that could add additional damage to your existing grasses. I would advise that if you do use a disk, go slowly as to not throw soil over onto standing grass. You might also try playing with the leveling adjustment on your disk...you could possibly set it so that only your front or rear disk gangs are actually cutting while the others are riding on top of the ground.

In sum, I would say that using the rotary hoe on existing stands of grass would be the way to go to avoid damaging your existing stand or making your field into a wash board. Rotary hoes aren't very expensive either as compared to disks...at least in our area they don't bring much at auction as they really aren't used in row crop production as much as they used to.

Hope this helps!


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

so would rotary hoe cut deep enough for hay seeds to get a hold?


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Best time to use a rotary hoe in a thin grass stand is about 24 hours after a good early fall rain....then the top of the ground tends to crumble nicely. One of the main functions of a rotary hoe was to bust up crusty surfaces in crop ground etc. Takes just a little experience on conditions when the best time is to pull it over the ground.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

been awol from Haytalk awhile, but interesting topic to read through and see the various tangents people get on. About ready to bust loose here in Va, looks like another 2 weeks and we will all have the fever. 66 on the patio yesterday at 7am coffee, 25 this am and coffee inside. Ground froze about 24" max and took a long time to thaw and is still drying here, really too wet to put a fertilizer truck on good fields until next week. Got the itch though. on thread-

I am on my third year of an experiment to deal with the problem of overmature hay in spring in VA.

The field is a Ky31 fescue, bluegrass, & OG mix well established. 14 ac. I trim with bushhog about 8" stubble height on April 15, again may 15, fertilize that day with complete fertilizer w Sulfur and 70 units N. Cut first cutting volume second cutting appearance on July 1 when it will dry without issue. Get a heavy second cutting with topdressing after first cut which I make just before dove season each year. have food plots around the edge of the field and makes it easier to find the doves-lazy dogs...

Makes for beautiful hay sm sqs or rolls. All my horse customers, I mean all default to that hay. Every horse cleans it up. So I doubled the acreage I am doing that on this year. What is important to my customers is appearance and smell but mostly do their horses eat it or waste it. I also had it tested and it tests well. It smells good, looks good and green, is fine textured and soft and has no blister beetles in case you wondered. Also it is the lowest maintenance hay I have (for weeds and mites, etc). So I am ready to pronounce it my best hay because it makes me the most $ per bale and it is selling regularly at 6 a bale in my barn. rick


----------



## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Vol said:


> It sure is, but these newer varieties have been developed to not "die out" and bunch like the older varieties....they still will but not as much. The good thing about bunching and thinning is a fella can run a rotary hoe over the field in the fall and add Timothy or some other to it or add more orchard grass with the thinning.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Always wondered what they are used for when I see them at auction. Sounds like something to pick up if cheap just to have in case.


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Vol said:


> It sure is, but these newer varieties have been developed to not "die out" and bunch like the older varieties....they still will but not as much. The good thing about bunching and thinning is a fella can run a rotary hoe over the field in the fall and add Timothy or some other to it or add more orchard grass with the thinning.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I've always heard of guys using rotary hoes on ground that was tilled hard then got a good, hard rain that caused raindrop impact and broke up soil structure...settling finer particles to the top and making the "crust". Interesting...do you have to put any weights on the hoe to get it to punch through the existing sod or is it heavy enough?



Vol said:


> Thanks....my two sons with their ladyfriends....and my yellow Lab "Cody".... and myself on the right....cannot really tell it, but there are 5 limits of Doves in the back of the Terex in front of Cody....75 birds. It was a good September afternoon shoot. They taste great when you grill them....maybe marinate for 24 hours in some Teriyaki or put a little "Q" sauce on them. Yum!
> 
> Regards, Mike


Looks like a hellava good dog. I'm a piss poor shot when it comes to doves, I'd have a better time knocking em' down if I just threw the gun at them lol. Can't say I ever had dove, the little amount of them I'd get usually get just went on the grill for a little bit then fed them to the dog! Sounds good what you have though!


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

PaCustomBaler said:


> I've always heard of guys using rotary hoes on ground that was tilled hard then got a good, hard rain that caused raindrop impact and broke up soil structure...settling finer particles to the top and making the "crust". Interesting...do you have to put any weights on the hoe to get it to punch through the existing sod or is it heavy enough?


Well it won't do much but break up the bare spots where you need to sow.....and sometimes if it is really hardpack you would need to go over a couple of times. Heavy enough where the pointed "spoons" will bust up crust....but best after a little moisture.

Regards, Mike


----------



## slopefarmer (Mar 24, 2015)

I have had great luck with orchard grass [patomic] , selling it to horse owners but have had a problem with it dieing underneith the windrow, on 2nd cutting. we swath, 14' header, leave the windrow wide. fluff it 2 days later,wait 2 days and then rake in the am, bale in the pm. The high temp can be in the 90's during this time here in central washington. any ideas to prevent the dieoff from you orchard grass growers?


----------



## dabeegguy (Apr 20, 2015)

slopefarmer said:


> I have had great luck with orchard grass [patomic] , selling it to horse owners but have had a problem with it dieing underneith the windrow, on 2nd cutting. we swath, 14' header, leave the windrow wide. fluff it 2 days later,wait 2 days and then rake in the am, bale in the pm. The high temp can be in the 90's during this time here in central washington. any ideas to prevent the dieoff from you orchard grass growers?


You work in a fairly warm high humidity area so you should be getting great regrowth. You are swathing your grass and it then takes 4 days before you get it baled. My guess is that's why you're getting dieoff.

Will take different equipment but consider this system:

1. cut using a NH 495 or similar mower conditioner (make sure that the rolls are set accurately!!)

cut starting at 18:00 - - - you will have higher sugar levels in the hay!!

2. its a 12' cut machine with a 9' conditioner roll but you need to drop the crop as wide as you can (at least 9' - - - wider if you can)

3. I'm wondering if you could fluff it a day later

4. rake it about 60 hours after you cut it (need to follow what the hay will let you do just know that I like to rake when the dew is on to minimize leaf loss!)

5. bale that afternoon and haul off the field in the evening or the next morning.

If your humidity isn't too high and you get some decent breezes and temperatures you might even be able to cut things down to a really nice short time from cutting.

The conditioning width is important, the spread behind the conditioning rolls is very important.

(Be interesting to see what ideas you get from other guys!)

Dee


----------

