# Coalition Asks EPA to Reduce Ethanol Mandate



## Vol

Talk about a can of worms....damned if you do or don't....

http://www.agricultu...-mate_4-ar25478

Regards, Mike


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## ARD Farm

Bottom line is ethanol was never ready for prime time despite what the politicians say......


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## steve in IN

I grow corn so I am looked upon poorly by my "peers". I have always felt that ethanol from corn is a terrible product. The amount of petroleum it takes to produce corn is far too high. The story that DDG is used for livestock feed is a joke. It is priced off of corn so it is not a cheap alternative. This drought should be a wake up call to all farmers. All of our expenses followed the price of grain. So are we really making that much more money. I do not think we have begun to see the whole picture as for the demand base that is going to be lost so that a few can work less hours on thier farm byn eliminating everything but grains from thier operation. The livestock industry is our biggest consumer of feed grains. Without them then our meat production will increasingly come from overseas. I really dont want to eat something from the third world, does the rest of America want to.


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## mlappin

Part of that is the fault of the distillers. For years they have had either cheap corn or government subsidies so improving the efficiency of the process wasn't a dire need as they were making money. It also should be up to the distillers to find a more efficient way of transporting ethanol, it should be up to the distillers to find a way to make it more stable as well.

While the E85 is cute, the majority of our vehicles while being able to use it the drop in mileage is not helpful. I can't recall if it was Audi or Volvo had a car specifically designed to burn up to 100% ethanol and get better mileage as the percent of ethanol was increased. Most of flex fuel vehicles simply have components that will tolerate ethanol. They change ignition timing and injector timing to use ethanol while the vehicle I mentioned used variable valve timing to increase the compression as the amount of ethanol in the fuel goes up. Most standard engines have a compression ratio too low to make efficient use of any alcohol as fuel.


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## ARD Farm

I believe compression and valve timing a 2 different animals. Engines today really can't utilize alcohol because to be an efficient alcohol burner, the *base compression ratio* needs to be upped considerably. Doing that makes the engines less adaptable to burning conventional emissions compliant gasoline.

Ethanol is a government mandate and not a practical one for any consumer.

The whole ethanol scenario is predicated on government assistance. My take is cut the government subsidies and let the e-plants adapt or go tits-up.

Corn needs to be used as a feedstock not as a gas tank filler.

In actuality, long stemmed grasses and hay make a better alcohol producing bas stock than corn kernels.


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## mlappin

ARD Farm said:


> I believe compression and valve timing a 2 different animals. Engines today really can't utilize alcohol because to be an efficient alcohol burner, the *base compression ratio* needs to be upped considerably. Doing that makes the engines less adaptable to burning conventional emissions compliant gasoline.


Yah, made me wonder too, but I'm pretty sure it was in the Sunday auto section of our paper.


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## steve in IN

Longstemmed grasses and other biomass does make more sense but who will produce it? The reason there are not that many hay producers or livestock farms anymore is because when "Junior" joined the operation it was easier to grow corn and beans than work year round. I would love to see a bio-mass plant open nearby because as a hay producer I have a leg up on most. As far as subsidies for ethanol let all subsidies lapse. This is how businesses become more efficient or go belly up. When the public hears how much crop insurance is paying out in taxpayer subsidies look out.


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## ARD Farm

Just think how many gallons of alcohol could be made with the grass that grows in the median on the Ohio and Indiana Turnpikes. I run the toll roads all the time and I think about all that potential alcohol or potential forage in the median.....

There is enough there that if the respective Turnpike Comissions got their acts together, the revenue could eliminate the tolls.

Something to consider.


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## Mike120

Brazil's standard blend is E25 and they also have E100 at the pumps. All of their Ethanol is produced from sugarcane and all comparisons I've seen between corn-based and sugarcane-based ethanol show sugarcane as the clear winner. Anything running E100 normally has a small gasoline reservoir used for cold-starting. I've driven a couple of E100 cars down there and really couldn't feel any difference between them and the ones running blends.. However, I really prefer the diesels used in Europe. Most get about 50 mpg with great performance. Roads in Europe are more fun to drive on anyway.


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## ARD Farm

Sometimes I think there is some sort of unwtitten agreement between the government and the automakers over diesel engines in passanger cars. Look at VW. They can't keep up with their diesel car sales here, everyone wants one, but the not so big 3 only offer domestic diesels in pickup trucks while they all offer passanger small diesels in their European cars.

My wife bought a Ford Transit. If Ford offered their Eurodiesel in the Transit, I'd be driving one.

Besides, diesel exhaust is hillbilly incense.


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## Vol

GM was supposedly coming out with a passenger car diesel a few years ago, but I think that the bailout put that on hold and then they continued to invest available resources on the Volt.

Regards, Mike


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## ARD Farm

Vol said:


> GM was supposedly coming out with a passenger car diesel a few years ago, but I think that the bailout put that on hold and then they continued to invest available resources on the Volt.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Something happened early this week at GM. There was an internal shake up in new product development and a bunch of people got canned. GM is being hush-hush about it but I have family pretty high up on the food chain at Fords so we get the 'skinny' about goings on at all 3 manufacturers.

They (GM) touted the Volt, opened a new plant in Woodhaven, just north of us to make the batteries, lots of hoopla and fanfare and from what I see, it was a colossial flop (and I believe the shakeup had something to do with the Volt. I know I'd never drive any electric car. The technology (battery wise) just isn't there to support long term reliability. Like the Prius. the battery pack is 10 grand with a projected 10 year life. That don't work for me. I want to keep a vehicle long past the payment book. Just like farm equipment. I don't mind buying new, I just want the new to last long enough to become old.


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## steve in IN

GM had diesel cars back in the late seventies and early eighties. My parents had an Olds 88 diesel. What a joke. Just an old converted 350, which I will never understand that motors popularity. I have had three and they all sucked. The motor in the Olds was nothing but problems just like the ones in the trucks. I think they made a 5.7 and a 6.2. Now they are pushing a rice burner motor from Isuzu I believe. I will stick to my 7.3 Fords made by Navistar(the new International Harvester).


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## Vol

steve in IN said:


> GM had diesel cars back in the late seventies and early eighties. My parents had an Olds 88 diesel. What a joke. Just an old converted 350, which I will never understand that motors popularity. I have had three and they all sucked. The motor in the Olds was nothing but problems just like the ones in the trucks. I think they made a 5.7 and a 6.2. Now they are pushing a rice burner motor from Isuzu I believe. I will stick to my 7.3 Fords made by Navistar(the new International Harvester).


GM Isuzu is not comparable to the gas conversion diesel in the seventies that was a disaster. Isuzu has been building diesel engines since 1936.....over 20 million of them worldwide. They are great motors....have excellent fuel mileage, tremendous torque and their reliability is unsurpassed. I own a 2001 GMC HD 2500 Duramax diesel that I bought new in 2001. I have 290,000 miles on the truck and as far as mechanics I have replaced the water pump.....thats it......just the normal, tires, batteries, filters, and oil. I believe that the GM trucks are re-tooling for a body change for 2013(fall of 13).

Regards, Mike

http://news.pickuptr...he-rockies.html


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## Mike120

I agree with Mike, I've got a 2004 Chevy HD 2500. There is no comparison between the Isuzu engine and the junk diesels GM produced for years. Unfortunately, the rear-end in my truck won't let it pull much without being very thirsty, but I got it real cheap. I replaced the EGR on my 2005 F-350 dually at about 60K, so I'm not that excited about the 6.0 Navistar....I liked the old 7.3 better. They just keep hanging more junk on the engines. Eventually they'll barely run and we won't be able to maintain them, but at least we'll starve to death breathing clean air.


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## mlappin

I have the 24 valve Cummings in my '99 Dodge 4x4. Have the cold air kit, a modified pump, aftermarket turbo, 4" exhaust, 3.55 posi rear and a Edge kit. Average around 22.5 mpg, seen as high 25.5 on the highway. Need to find a drive on dyno somewhere, should have between 350-400hp with the Edge set to Extreme. Funny part is, I get better mileage with the Edge set on "Extreme" than I do with the "Mileage" or "Drive" setting hella lots more fun to drive on "Extreme" as well. No drivetrain or transmission problems as of yet, do seem to notice some accelerated rear tire wear for some reason.


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## Gearclash

A gasoline burning spark ignition engine needs three changes to fully utilize alcohol (ethanol):

A richer air/fuel mixture

2-3 degrees of ignition timing advance

Higher compression ratio.

The first two are easy to do with computer controlled systems that existed before ethanol even came around. Variable compression ratio would be more difficult to accomplish. BTW the octane rating of E85 is around 109 vs the 87 or 89 that most vehicles use. E85 would like a compression ratio around 12:1 or a little better.

I'll stick to driving my '99 Ram 2500 Cummins


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