# Choices Choices Choices



## Febrink (Feb 15, 2012)

Question for you far more knowledgeable gents than I. I am a small time producer in south eastern IL. I have always done grass Hay but am getting ready to jump into the seeding realm. My question is this, which will be a more profitable crop a Alfalfa and orchard grass mix or Bermuda grass.

I am not very familiar with either of the two options when if comes to seeding. I know the alfalfa will take a lot of pot ash and I know to get a soil sample test. My question is over the course of time with the Alfalfa die out what about the bermuda grass? most of what I read online seems to be pushing one or the other I have yet to find a list of pros and cons that spells out the high and low points. I am turning to your expertise. I believe if I go with the Bermuda grass I should go with a colder variety? which will do better in the wetter soils? One field floods when we get a huge rain. It goes back down quickly but it does flood. Thanks from the green horn


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## Leggupfarms (Jun 30, 2014)

Alfalfa does not do well in wet areas but is more drought tollerant once established. It depends on what you are going to be doing with the hay. What do more people in your area want.


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## Maryland Ridge Farms (Mar 1, 2009)

Timothy would do well in a wet field


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

We are close . I'm in w. ky about 15 miles from the ohio river . Been a commercial hay producer for a long time and here ya go . Are you using the hay or selling it ????? At one time I had 300 acres of alfalfa . UGH . I now have 15 acres . As the alfalfa faded out I replaced with grass . Good grass . Timothy , orchard grass , and I'm trying some Bermuda . I'm hoping the Bermuda works because if it goes as advertised makes a lot of good hay and is there forever . The alfalfa was a good business just kinda tough to keep up with around here . wevils , stands worn out after 4 years and our weather is what has me changing . IF the Bermuda works out it will definetly be a good thing . get past the unpredictable spring weather because its not ready till memorial day . It takes bunches of nitrogen but my 30 acres is on its way toward 3rd cutting has made a lot of hay so far and is getting thicker and better !!!!!!


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Maryland Ridge Farms said:


> Timothy would do well in a wet field


You're probably too far south for timothy as a production crop. Pasture-yes. Timothy is a cool season grass and goes dormant over daytime temps of 85. I tried it--it was OK but no second or third cuttings and the fall cutting was too late because of high humidities hereabouts.

Ralph


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

It is interesting to learn that Bermuda seems to be growing farther north than I remember.

Is the Bermuda adapting or are there new hybrids out now that can withstand the deeper freezes?

Bermuda can make some of the prettiest hay I have ever seen. The yields are great and the feed value is high.

I hope the Bermuda works out for those giving it a try.


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## Febrink (Feb 15, 2012)

They are making hybrids now for the colder areas. I know some locals are having really good success with it but the irrigate also. How important is irrigation with Bermuda?


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Not suppose to be at all . suppose to be really drought tolerant . maybe trading water for fert. It is a diva for the fert . after every cutting and before in the spring 80 units of nitrogen . its needed but well worth it .

I did have a stand freeze out tho last winter . It was in kinda a low laying field and just figured the ground turned to a block of ice . stuff on hill ground made it just fine .


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## Febrink (Feb 15, 2012)

siscofarms said:


> Not suppose to be at all . suppose to be really drought tolerant . maybe trading water for fert. It is a diva for the fert . after every cutting and before in the spring 80 units of nitrogen . its needed but well worth it .
> 
> I did have a stand freeze out tho last winter . It was in kinda a low laying field and just figured the ground turned to a block of ice . stuff on hill ground made it just fine .


Thanks, I was told you def had to irrigate at first to get a good stand. Sounds like Ive been getting some bad advice. I am really beginning to lean this way. What is the difference in price for starting a field of Bermuda verses alfalfa and orchard? How hard is it to get Bermuda started? The nitro has to be applied to either as I understand it maybe not so much with alf but still needs fertalized


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

Make sure Bermuda is 6-8" tall by first freeze when it goes dormant in the fall, will keep it from killing your root system in the winter


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Febrink said:


> Thanks, I was told you def had to irrigate at first to get a good stand. Sounds like Ive been getting some bad advice. I am really beginning to lean this way. What is the difference in price for starting a field of Bermuda verses alfalfa and orchard? How hard is it to get Bermuda started? The nitro has to be applied to either as I understand it maybe not so much with alf but still needs fertalized


To get established, you need abundant moisture, it is usually est. from live sprigs. If its dry in the spring and the summer is hot and dry, that will be a weed field in a few weeks......you were told correctly. Once the Bermuda gets est. the root systems grow very deep and h20 consumption is about 1" a week, although it will persist for longer with those deep roots finding moisture. 
N is needed in abundance, as is K once harvesting starts. Best to make sure that PH is up around 6 or better. Hth


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Febrink, where are you located? While I'm at it, how's about updating your profile to include the state, thanks.....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> It is interesting to learn that Bermuda seems to be growing farther north than I remember.
> Is the Bermuda adapting or are there new hybrids out now that can withstand the deeper freezes?
> Bermuda can make some of the prettiest hay I have ever seen. The yields are great and the feed value is high.
> I hope the Bermuda works out for those giving it a try.


Lots of work at our experiment station on cold hardy varieties, some do very well, some not so well.....but they are continuing research on it, undoubtably we will have some varieties very well adapted thru hybrids....

Tift 44 comes to mind as being cold hardy, coastal is somewhat cold hardy as well....Tift 85, not so much, Alicia, no,


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## Febrink (Feb 15, 2012)

I am in Illinois. south of 70 but north of 64. Most of my buyers are horse people. I have sold quite a bit recently to cattle owners. I am using the hay I put up as well as selling it. I am trying to go back towards small squares because it is getting harder and harder to find them around here. Most people are Round baling in this area.

I round bale when requested or if I don't think the hay will be that good. While I run a small time operation compared to many on here my ultimate goal is to retire and do this full time in about six years.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Febrink said:


> I am in Illinois. south of 70 but north of 64. Most of my buyers are horse people. I have sold quite a bit recently to cattle owners. I am using the hay I put up as well as selling it. I am trying to go back towards small squares because it is getting harder and harder to find them around here. Most people are Round baling in this area.
> I round bale when requested or if I don't think the hay will be that good. While I run a small time operation compared to many on here my ultimate goal is to retire and do this full time in about six years.


Funny the way it is......I would like to do the same, but the money ain't quite good enuf.....I'll have to do some diversifying......maybe we can start baling that medicinal hemp in really tiny squares, then I thnk I could retire! Lets see, bale a weed and get paid big bucks for a small package, hmmmmm. Maybe retirement is in the future


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Febrink said:


> Thanks, I was told you def had to irrigate at first to get a good stand. Sounds like Ive been getting some bad advice. I am really beginning to lean this way. What is the difference in price for starting a field of Bermuda verses alfalfa and orchard? How hard is it to get Bermuda started? The nitro has to be applied to either as I understand it maybe not so much with alf but still needs fertalized


You won't need to put any nitrogen down for alfalfa. If there hasn't been any legumes there for a long time it would be a good idea to get inoculated seed or inoculate it yourself. That will give the plant the bacteria required to start fixing its own nitrogen. Consider adding edophyte friendly tall fescue to your alfalfa and orchard grass. The fescue will kick in and grow in the hot part of the year and is a nice soft grass in your alfalfa. I plant 16Lbs. per acre alfalfa, 1lbs brome, 1lbs orchard, and 6 lbs fescue.

I don't think I'll try bermuda here until they get it more winter hardy. There was 5 to 6 feet of frost here last winter in places.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm wondering if bermuda is going to be cold hardy enough for Illinois? I wanted to grow some T85 but was told it wasn't cold hardy enough for here that T44 was the only one that would reliably do well here and that coastal would be borderline. Common bermuda grows wild here everywhere but no one uses that for hay except what invades the cool season grass hay fields. The other problem I found was that getting sprigs planted was a problem since no body around here raises bermuda.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I raise both bermudagrass for hay and alfalfa for hay also.

Bermudagrass will out yield alfalfa HERE.

Bermudagrass needs as much P & K as alfalfa, but a third as much calcium.

Bermudagrass is about 70% Leaves. Put up correctly it is a good 12% CP hay.

The bermudagrass leaves shatter more than alfalfa ever thought possible.

Alfalfa baled too dry looks like a bundle of sticks. Bermudagrass baled too dry, to the casual buyer, still looks good. The animal know the difference though.

Bermudagrass out yields alfalfa here with our annual summer drought.

For feed value alfalfa has bermudagrass beat. For yield for the amount of water bermudagrass has alfalfa beat.

Why not plant some ground to alfalfa and some ground to bermudagrass?

One thing bermudagrass will cure ok with no conditioning while alfalfa need the hay to be conditioned starting the second day of curing.

Hay dropped into a windrow will take 2 days longer to cure than hay dropped in a wide swath.

It is direct sunshine on the hay that cures hay. The sun heats the moisture, raises the vapor pressure and the moisture flys out the nearest opening.


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## astropilot (Jun 3, 2008)

Bermudagrass can be grown in your area. There are 2 seeded varieties that will do welll, Wrangler and Cherokee both can be gotten at Nixa Hardware in Nixa, Mo. Alfalfa will do very well as long as the PH is better than 6.2 and less than 7.0. I would recommend RR WL372 it does great for me here in Louisville, KY. Timothy is also grow here too, but the big problem is one cut, but it is the cheapest of any seed to put into the ground with the greatest return. ($5.00 per bale). A large produce close to me rotates Timothy and RR Alfalfa. They get 5-6 years on RR Alfalfa and 2-3 years on the Timothy. I hope this helps. Mark


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

A Bermuda grass patch interseeded with alfalfa and then you have something...


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Colby said:


> A Bermuda grass patch interseeded with alfalfa and then you have something...


I was thinking the same thing Colby.....if interlaced with 44, tests have been real good, here.....problem we have is packaging, for the dairyman a great winner.....most here are getting 8-9 cuts, need a bit of N for Bermuda in the summer but a real good combo....


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

THEEEE best thing about the Bermuda is that it spreads . if you keep the fert and lime and stuff in check , and this doesn't mean the nitrogen , it makes the hay , the other keeps the stand . It will last forever . Alfalfa , timothy ,anything except johnsongrass and fescue you'll have to reseed or over seed every so often . It may take a year or 2 after planting while it gets established but it will choke everything else out . THAT I love about it ...


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Add Bahia to the list of grasses that will proliferate.

We constantly fight Bahia in the Bermuda and work to establish it in pastures.


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