# Blank slate pasture



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

I have spent the entire summer lurking and absorbing the incredible amount of knowledge being shared on this site, priceless, Thank You All!!

A quick layout of what I have and my goals for it.... numerous small Horse pastures, 3-7 acres each in the Colorado mountain foothills at 6500 ft altitude. Old cattle pasture where the herds would pack into the corners through the winter for the last 150 yrs, highly compacted and very arid.

Over the last several years I have subsoiled with a grossly undersized old tractor but now have it broken down to about 12-14". Light discing a few years back, various dryland wheat grass pasture mixes were broadcast and then cultipacked as that was the only equipment I had at the time. Semi successful results, at least there is now some cool season grasses competing with the weeds. Unusually wet spring and semi consistent rains this summer, there is actually some 'pasture' showing through the weeds now.

Soil tests show the need for 80#/ac N in my south pastures and the same plus 20#/ac P in the north pastures, both averaging around 7.3. I have never fertilized any of the pastures and to date the only weed suppression has been mowing before the weeds have gone to seed, that being semi successful at least on the Cheatgrass.

This summer I was able to obtain and restore an old IH press wheel dual disc opener seed drill and I am now just finishing rebuilding a 275 gal tow sprayer with all new plumbing, tank, dryboom check valve nozzle bodies and foam markers... Yes, I have been paying attention and taking notes while reading every post and opinion back about 15 pages.

Fickle weather here in the mountains, sometimes we are in a teeshirt on Christmas day, others we have 3' of snow. Most spring snow moisture comes from March through late April but winters are often quite dry.

The south pastures are surrounded by the likes who start drawing up protest signs every time they see one of the RU legal commercials and the north pastures surrounded by very good neighbors who would love a hand with controlling the weeds and grass in their own pastures. The weed pressure is vastly worse in the north pastures so I am thinking to start herbicide/fertilizer tests in the north and limit the attempts to just fertilizer in the south, at least until results show it is worth creating a fuss, hopefully the Duracor will be available by then and I can walk lightly with that. I have not purchased nozzle tips yet but was planning AI flat fans and think I might also need the streamjets for fertilizer.

Planning on drilling more seed in late March/Early April as weather and conditions permit, maybe adding some smooth brome as it does well in the road ditches. Good crop of weeds now and the cool season grass has not yet come back due to hot weather.

Sorry for the long drivel, I just wanted to lay out as many facts as I could so to get sound advise from folks who know a lot more than I! I now have the equipment but when do I use it... and doing what with it? County Ag agent says its too late to apply N but I read university studies that say fall N is the best??? Hit the weeds now being as not planting until spring or should I plant now and wait on the weeds until I have a stand?

A Little help, guidance and advice would sure be appreciated!

Dave


----------



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I prefer to apply N in spring,closest to the time you need it.N can be lost threw leaching or into atmosphere.2 nd best time would be late fall before freeze up and have a rain take it in.On frozen ground would be the worst.

IDK why the County agent would say it's to late to put N on now.Well it's to late to do much for this yrs crop but you need to be thinking about next yrs now so late fall or early spring app would be best.Preferably immediately before a rain to take it in.


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

Thank You.

I think she was only thinking about this years crop which is now dormant with only weeds growing. I have to factor in seeding in the spring with a regrowth this fall being a distant concern based on weather we might not get

So many questions... most of which I don't even know to ask yet!

This is a whole new learning game out here, what I knew from our MN days several decades ago has very little application where "dirt" is just crumbling granite and there is cactus in the pastures.


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Welcome Rockfrmr.

Do you have any warm season grass, some type of native grass to work with? If you are limited to the cool season grasses then putting nitrogen on weeds would not be good. (Here in the Deep South we do not apply fall nitrogen on warm season grasses.)

If you have mostly weeds now and intend to drill warm season grass then I would spray for the warm season weeds now and begin their demise. I am wondering if it is too late in the year to try and establish any warm season grass? I am thinking you can clean up the weeds now in preparation for next year, unless the weeds are helping with erosion control.

I hope others here more familiar with your climate and conditions will chime in and offer more specific options.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

What about the Grama grasses....Blue and Side Oat....and maybe Buffalo grass.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

When this quest started a number of years back we were in the beginning stages of what turned to be about an 8-10 year drought and I am quite sure that influenced both the local seed company and Ag Service agents opinions on what seed I should use, the wheat grass varieties being exceptionally resistant to drought.

The other problem to contend with is even the normal the weather systems very unpredictable when one is right in the foothills on the eastern slope, just 10 miles to the east and everything changes, hay farming is predictable there. Mountain peaks and valleys tend to channel weather into several small areas and I am right in the shadow of a 14,000 ft peak, that often is spitting the clouds to either side of me. The end result is we are often quite dry for extended periods and I have to adapt to that possibility by what is planted. This last winter saw record snow in the mountains and what seems like a return to the norm of afternoon showers through the summer... maybe.

I believe the recommendations of a "Dryland Pasture Mix" of cool season, drought resistant grasses was all based on the above circumstances at the time. The current reality is I am wide open to planting any grass varieties adaptable to this climate and altitude, hence my "Blank Slate" reference. I was told the cool season grasses would in time crowd out the warm season types where we might get both a spring and fall stand if the weather cooperated.

The reality is this is a money looser no matter how it is viewed BUT... if these pastures are rid of most of the toxic weeds and average green for a good part of the season, my Honey DO! novel decreases in size and that alone one cant put a price to!

Now with the seed drill and sprayer at hand, the small size of the pastures being dealt with and the knowledge this will never actually 'payback', I don't care if I have to over seed yearly so long as the Vet is held at bay and my wife is happy. Cool, warm or both would please me just fine.

This land never having been fertilized or having the weeds attacked, I suspect most anything done will show very positive results if the timing and techniques are done correctly. The nice part is with multiple pastures and plans already coming together to vary the approach in each, I can try different methods and crops in both... and just wait and see what worked better.

I read about mixing herbicide and fertilizer, burn back from flat fans because of that, delay times in planting with herbicides used, and its all terribly confusing to me when to do what and in what order. I like the idea of both cool and warm grasses, especially in the north pastures where I am free to use herbicides as required


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

Tim and Vol, Thanks for your thoughts!

The pastures are on a slope but I don't think erosion will be an issue, there is enough grass started to hold things in place over the fall and winter.

According to the County we are past the planting time for non irrigated warm season grasses but if the drill is being loaded, I have no problem with mixes being drilled in and the warm laying dormant until next summer with the cool germinating early next April.

With the challenging conditions here my views and goals are set out 6-8 months, little here happens quickly. I am viewing this fall's tasks simply as prep for next spring's results


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

I appreciate every ones feedback and understand it has to be adapted to this some what unique climate and conditions. Given that, speaking more in generalities, could I get some advise on the when and how that folks do in their area on pastures?

My take away so far is to attack the current weed crop at this point and prep to do the same again in the spring. How mature should the new cool season grass be before applying herbicide with minimal damage? I should be able to cut it all short after herbicide application in the near future and before winter drill in a mixture of cool season grasses.

Is it better to do separate seeding's of the cool and warm season grasses, each near the most ideal times rather than drilling a mixture of both in the fall, given seed size variations?

Regarding fertilizer, I do have a 100# 3 point broadcast spreader to do dry (that being very difficult to calibrate to any remote accuracy) and the new sprayer. Am I to understand it better to get fertilizer down to help with germination or wait until a stand is showing in the spring? Given the north pasture tests show a need for P, I would think a pre germination application would be preferred. I have not yet spoken to the Coop about what they generally stock and suspect that might affect the answers

If fertilizer is done late fall, which is best to minimize N loss, or should I wait until early spring? Educated guess broadcasting dry or accurate spraying of liquid in either spring or fall?

Proper timing is my biggest challenge/question on this quest and given its a hobby application, I don't care how many trips it requires to play it safe yet get results. Compaction would be my only concern and that car be addressed by conditions and maybe even another subsoiling after a good stand is established.

Thanks once again for your thoughts


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I would put my P down when you are at a period where rainfall is semi-regular. P is what gives a plant drought tolerance and encourages good root development. I would think that being in the high altitudes of the Rockies that you would want to spring plant/drill your seed so as not to "freeze" a new sprig of grass out. Or, maybe drill the seed when there is not a chance of germination this fall and let lie dormant all winter so that it germinates this spring.

Here in the Southeast, we have to plant cool season grasses in the fall to get them going in the fall so that they can really get going in the spring and set deeper roots before the following summers heat and drought gets here. We are currently in the midst of our second drought period now.

I would think that if you drilled grasses for spring germination that you would be OK in your locale, whether drilled in the fall or spring. I would drill when either spring or fall timing gave me the best chance to get on the land with the least damage.

As far as cool season grasses, I think I would do a mixture of Meadow Brome, Smooth Brome, and Western Wheatgrass and then it gives you a better chance of finding something that will work well for your soils and climate.

As far as weeds and herbicides, you want to use something that is mild in "residual" affects....like 2-4D Amine. You could plant about 35-40 days after application with a little rainfall. There are other herbicides that you can use for your specific area. Do you have a NRCS office fairly close? Here, those folks are very helpful with information whether giving it to you or directing you to where you can get good info.

You may want to spot treat with a handheld sprayer some for things like leafy spurge etc.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

Exactly the type of guidance and suggestions I was in hopes of getting, Thank You Mike.

Unfortunately nothing is close at hand regarding extension services but they have all been very helpful over the Net. For the most part they are geared for commercial operations and are a bit less understanding of the politics I face being on small acreages needing an effective yet semi 'safe' herbicide system.... I get that, can see both sides and will be one of the first to try the new Duracor when available.

I will head into town this AM, get another load of sprayer parts and start studying the 2-4D Amine products available on the shelf.


----------



## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Having experienced from less than 10 inches to more than 60 inches of rain per year over my 64 years on the same place you take your chances. My normal is 20 falling from Oct to April. But my thought is plants only take up fertilizer along with the water they suck out of the ground. So you need to get the fertilizer down in the ground, much easier with some nutrients than others.

How much of the rain and snow sinks in compared to what runs off. The N is the easiest to go down if water infiltrates, but also volatilizes if there is no rain for to long after spreading or runs off with excess water. The P and K would probably give more bang for the buck if you could place them 2 to 6 inches down when doing the subsoil compaction break up.

Until you find others improving pastures with similar weather to yours, experiment. Then try to repeat the most successful things. And IF and only IF the weather somewhat does it's "normal" you may be able to repeat the successes.

So I guess what I am really trying to say is nobody can give you a road map. It sounds like you have a few years seeing what happens. So now time for educated guesses.


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

What I am finding most helpful here is now starting to get an understanding of the 'why's' behind the timing of each step, that helping to answer some of the questions as to why some of the prior efforts have failed. I am perfecting the failure part but as luck would have it my timing for this quest has been during extremes in weather over the last decade of trying, 9 year drought followed by 500 year floods.

I think what little success I have had is from the subsoiling due to how arid it is here, that allowing water to go down prior to evaporation. I guess one of the things I could try is to pull the empty drill through the pastures and see how well the openers cut in as it stands now. That should answer if I need to disc or subsoil again prior to planting or fertilizing.

Each spring has been a do over to this point but now I at least have a minimal stand of wheat grass varieties and have the right tools and a little education at hand. This year the summer rains have continued so the crop of highly toxic weeds that are my main focus, are alive and doing well. In the next week or two I will be ready to spray them down and can figure out the next step after that is dealt with. The spring weeds are more of a productivity nuisance than a danger to the horses, those usually dying off by mid June, about the same time the cool grasses go dormant. I guess I will have to take a wait and see if the new plantings mature enough to spray again in the late spring before those weeds seed out and dye off.

Is there a general rule about having the fertilizer down prior to drilling or is drilling late fall with a pre emergence application of AS and P in the spring OK? Any advantage to the P going down in the fall and over wintering in the ground? Granular or liquid the best for my situation?


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm in the camp of P late summer / fall (with rain to carry into ground). As far as working the soil, I'm in the no-till camp. I'd just as well would let the 'critters' that naturally occur do the tillage, while creating paths for water/nutrients to get into the soil. I believe worms are one of the best water infiltration workers around, all while leaving a wonderful product behind .

As far as the pastures (south ones?) that you might be limited with herbicides, let your mower be your friend. In both north and south pastures you probably have a pretty substantial weed seed bank already. Keeping them trimmed BEFORE the go to seed would be my MO. This weed seed bank, is also the reason I favor no-till (leave them where they are).

As with nitrogen, I don't grow pure grass hay, but I do know that the guys growing sod (sod farmers), believe in nitrogen in the early fall NOT the spring. They tell me, they want a good healthy plant going into the winter/spring and being they are not removing any of the crop (grass clippings), that the N will be available the following spring (partly thanks to the worms re-cycling it).

As far as fertilizing, in general I want the fertilizer in place already when seeding, trying to give the new plant every chance possible for survival. And I use all granular fertilizer, cheaper on my pocket book in MY area, YMMV.

Do you have any neighbors close that you can ask, what they do?

Larry


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

Unfortunately I am the only one crazy enough to take on this challenge in our area, Larry. Many are watching with the want to duplicate things should I be successful. The local hay farmers are dealing with entirely different conditions and have stands that have been going for decades.

One of the difficulties in the south pasture is a heavy stand of Madwort that came in after the drought ended. That is low enough growing that I have had to cut the grass quite close to address that. I will spot spray that in the spring and hope enough grass comes in to further push out the weeds.

I will prep for fall applied P and have that handy to spray when rain looks inevitable

Thank You for the thoughts.


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

What is the general thinking regarding a small amount of N applied along with the 2-4D, that to get the late summer weeds growing to pull in the herbicide? Researching this topic on HT it appears to be a somewhat standard practice.

I should be able to get the sprayer calibrated this coming week as the restoration of that is now all finished but is yet untested. Application rates of the 2-4D Amine should be straight forward but what constitutes "a little N" to be mixed in?

It has been fairly dry here for the last several weeks so my plan is to sit tight until the rains look inevitable prior to this application, leaving enough time for it to be rainfast. That followed by another wait and watch period later in the fall to put down the required P the soils test showed to be needed. The more I read the more I start thinking that broadcasting 40#/ac (half the recommended annual)dry AN or AS in the spring is more practical than more accurately spraying it on prior to drilling in seed in mid March.

My 3 point broadcaster is not the least bit accurate but I could just keep cris-crossing the pastures until the proper amount is laid down and hope for some level of uniformity in the end... unless I misunderstood what I have read and spraying would work fine

March and April is when we get the most snow but each storm is followed by 50 degree days so the ground doesn't freeze up

Am I getting this right?


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

If it has been dry for an extended period, you will get a better kill on your weeds if you let them get a rain before spraying herbicide so that the weed plants become more vigorous about taking the herbicide up. Spray your herbicide a couple of days after the rain. Be sure and add a surfactant to your herbicide mix to make the chemical stick to the plant better and become rainfast quicker.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

Noted, Thanks Vol!

Do you have an opinion on which are the most drift resistant (under ideal conditions of course), commonly used Teejet nozzles? AI flat fan series for the 2-4D amine? I need to get the nozzles so I can start the calibration of this new rig.

I have yet to find the time to go to the coop and discuss what fertilizer options they current stock , or plan to stock in the spring, and the various costs related to that.

IF I choose to spray the N early in the spring (studying to see if I can apply P with the 2-4D this fall), are the flat fan nozzles OK for that given there will not be a leaf burn concern yet, or is spraying N always done with the StreamJets? Any concerns of spraying N (I will likely have to use AN or AS because of the unpredictability of moisture) over drilled in seed?

Your earlier explanation of why you choose to plant in the fall is what I find most helpful, it allows me to envision things under my own conditions and in that respect we both share the same concerns of hot and dry summer months. I guess its all a gamble on if we have a winter or a shirt sleeve Christmas where everything sprouts when not intended.

NOAA is just down the road 12 miles, tucked into the lower foothills like myself... and still accurate weather prediction here is near impossible. Weather on the West coast, Midwest and East coast.... is semi predictable, but when you stick the mountains up in the path of a front, its anyone's guess what happens right here.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have never used the AI nozzles so I don't have an opinion on them. I just use the regular drift guard(DG) flat fan nozzles by Tee Jet.

I always broadcast my nitrogen.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Regarding your neighbors to the south, I'd set out a table and chairs for them, with some poster board and a box of multi-colored Sharpies and tell them to go to town while you spray herbicide and fertilizer.


----------



## Rockfrmr (Jun 30, 2019)

That was good for a solid chuckle this AM, Thank You Josh!

The problem might take care of itself... I saw them out trying to split 2 day down green logs with a My Little Pony single edge ax in 100 degree weather this last weekend. Appears Nature might already be trying to thin out the stupid.....

Reading every day all summer long, cant thank everyone enough for the valuable information shared here! Last weekend the sprayer finally fired up for the first trial run. No spray tips yet but today the tach comes off the tractor to clean that up to get accurate readings for sprayer calibration. Sure hope fall holds off a little while longer, too much yet to do!


----------

