# Duetz engine



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Motor in the skid steer took a big dump, I'm guessing broken rings.

Nobody locally deals with Duetz diesels, anybody know of a reputable rebuilder that specializes in em? This is the oil cooled engine, not air cooled.

I'm going to try to get it out by the end of the week, if it's as shot as I'm guessing a long block might be the cheapest route.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Oil cooled is a money pit if it's even kind of messed up. There are multiple places here in PA that deal in repair and sales but they're still expensive.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

You could check with www.deutzboyz.com. They deal in and ship a lot of Deutz parts and complete engines. Anywhere.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

8350HiTech said:


> Oil cooled is a money pit if it's even kind of messed up. There are multiple places here in PA that deal in repair and sales but they're still expensive.


I figured, they didn't use em very long. If I had a chance I would have talked father out of it, but he thought he was getting a bargain.

Local Bobcat dealer was talking a little over 6k just for a reman.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

mlappin said:


> I figured, they didn't use em very long. If I had a chance I would have talked father out of it, but he thought he was getting a bargain.
> 
> Local Bobcat dealer was talking a little over 6k just for a reman.


Probably a "reasonable" price.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

8350HiTech said:


> Probably a "reasonable" price.


 I hope not, 6K for a little 4 banger diesel is not what I would call reasonable. Had 10K in a 903 cummins long block with exchanged turbo and charge pump, and that my friend a is a lot of engine.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Reasonable for that motor. Doesn't make sense or seem fair but they're just an odd duck. If you got anywhere near $4500 I'd be surprised. I'd call a Deutz dealer and pick their brain a little to get a better handle on how dire the situation is.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Oh it's bad. Topped it off with oil before heading to the woods. Got some damaged and dying trees dropped and moved to the clearing under the power lines. Heading back up to the house and it started loosing power and when I turned around to look it was blowing black and blue smoke, lots of it. Let it sit 10 minutes and tried to restart out of curiosity, when it wouldn't I dragged it up to the shop. No oil even on the stick now which is the busted rings guess, maybe even a broken skirt or two. Just barely attempts to fire as well so who knows.

Guessing have the charge pump rebuilt, injectors, injector actuators, turn the crank, new pistons, rings and sleeves at the minimum, might as well do a valve job since it's apart.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> I hope not, 6K for a little 4 banger diesel is not what I would call reasonable. Had 10K in a 903 cummins long block with exchanged turbo and charge pump, and that my friend a is a lot of engine.


I got a works kit done on a DT466 for about $3500.
Can you just sell the thing and cut your losses?
Reman engines don't have a heck of a lot of warranty. You might be back where you started again Ina few years. OR could you install a different brand, maybe a Kubota and make it fit. Probably be a big project, but it is winter.....haha


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

A dozrn years back I bought a 555 NH skid from a dealer who had just put a new long block nh engine in place of a trashed one, Kubota I think, but whatever it was a different brand altogether. Had a lot of trouble gettin exhaust system to stay together the first year or so but since then it has been an excellent machine. I often wonder how much cheaper they bought the replacement engine out of the newer series to make this doable. An individual without the benefit of wholesale pricing would have to pencil this a while. Is there a different engine in a similar year/series and how much do you care about trade in value?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

This is a oil cooled engine, would need a radiator to start with. Then the electronics would have to play nice. It's not winter here anymore, snow will be mostly gone by next week. Then the replacement engine would have to play nice with the drive that runs the hydrostatic pump.

Just installed new tracks last year and replace both final drives.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> This is a oil cooled engine, would need a radiator to start with. Then the electronics would have to play nice. It's not winter here anymore, snow will be mostly gone by next week. Then the replacement engine would have to play nice with the drive that runs the hydrostatic pump.
> 
> Just installed new tracks last year and replace both final drives.


Yeah that changes things a bit. 
You have to wonder if you couldn't trade it, blown engine and all, for less than fixing it. Then you get rid of a potential future problem. Never know, there might be someone nearby who likes that skid steer and wants it. Might ven have a spare engine for it. 
Or could you buy same model with good engine, do swap and keep chassis for parts?


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## jeff outwest (Sep 13, 2009)

4 banger Duetz engines were used in a lot of construction equipment back in the day, before the EPA. Rollers and pumps etc. should be able to find one in something, that is junked out. There is bunch sitting on top of balers out here on the left coast.


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## cornshucker (Aug 22, 2011)

Any other applications you know of that uses the same engine, maybe could find one there, but I myself never really liked used engines most of time throwing good money out for bad. Only oil cooled Deutz I ever seen was in a 5640 Gehl skid steer we looked at. Probably rebuild good idea but spring is approaching and I'm sure your time is going to become a issue. Only thing about swapping for another brand of engine is everything is so tight in skid steers to start with not much room for modifications.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've done engine conversions before, pain in the butt. Took the gasser out of our grain truck and installed a Cat 3208. Everything for that had to be custom fit or redone. Custom bent fuel lines, made up new wiring harness, made up radiator hoses out of several different ones. Then did my cousins the same way, even had to make the motor mounts.

Problem is now you can't go into the auto parts store and say I need a upper radiator hose for a International 1910A that used to have the 478 gas in it but now has a 3208 Cat. I have a list made up in each truck of belts, hoses, etc.

Not worth it in the long run, on those trucks it would of been better to pull the grain boxes and buy a different chassis.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

If it's not locked up or tossed a rod it might be worth rebuilding if your up for it. Not much to those engines. What machine is this in exactly? My go-to for skid loader/mini ex stuff is GD Equipment in Shippensburg PA (717) 530-0170 they have saved me a ton of money and they will ship to you.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

GD is good and fair.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

I almost forgot. Some of those duetz in the bobcats would blow a headgasket I think about every 2000 hours. I guess if it blew bad enough it could do as you describe and that is a very easy and cheap repair.


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## ANewman (Sep 20, 2012)

Guy I work for had to replace one in a 6640 Gehl skid steer about two yrs ago. It had gotten a hole rubbed thru the oil pan and lost all the oil. Guy running it, at the time, plays hell on any kind of equipment anyway. I think it cost him upward of $10k to put a reman in it. This was the second engine put in that same machine. First one was replaced under warranty. Sad thing is the machine still has less than 1000 hrs on it today.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

This is in a Bobcat 864, new rubber tracks installed last year. Also replaced both final drives as they were leaking once in a while.

Don't think it's a head gasket, don't hear any escaping compression unless of course its doing it from one cylinder to the next. Not sure if that would cover the crazy oil consumption but it might if it was pumping oil into the cylinder on the intake stroke.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> This is in a Bobcat 864, new rubber tracks installed last year. Also replaced both final drives as they were leaking once in a while.
> 
> Don't think it's a head gasket, don't hear any escaping compression unless of course its doing it from one cylinder to the next. Not sure if that would cover the crazy oil consumption but it might if it was pumping oil into the cylinder on the intake stroke.


If it's the head gasket the only way you might hear anything would be to pull a glow plug and crank the engine and see if you can hear oil puking into the cylinder. I think that machine is basically an 863 on tracks so you should be able to have that head off in an hour or hour in a half which is what I would do first before pulling the engine. I'd also put some cheap oil in and a manual oil pressure gauge to see if and what it's putting out, sending unit is on the easy side of the block on the 863's and you can screw in a test gauge there. I'd also pull the glow plugs and see if any in particular are oil covered. No matter what the issue is I find it odd that it shut off and won't start and that you never heard anything come loose in the engine. You would think even if you wasted one cylinder the other three should keep it going. I can't say on your model but the T series had low oil pressure shut down. Be a good time to check the the timing belt and push rods, that could have shut you down. If you don't know the last time it had a timing belt then it needs one.

You should be able to buy that engine for 5 ish with your core. If none of the guys we listed can do that then look around online.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Had a timing belt last year done by the dealer when they changed an actuator on the valve body as we were in the busy season and didn't have time to do it ourselves.

Yes, basically a 863 on tracks.

Pulling the glow plugs, then the head sounds like a plan.

Dealer did mention last year that it had more blow by than normal, was hoping to get to it this summer when things weren't so hectic.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Cudo's to CMD. Sounds like you know your stuff. Stauffer diesel suggested the same thing, pull the head, replace head gasket.

Would have done it already, but it's still froze down right where she sits. Hopefully in a day or so we can get her moved.

Hopefully that fixes it, I've been dropping dead, dying, damaged or junk trees every afternoon for the last three or four days, have plenty of splitting for when it's running again.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Cudo's to CMD. Sounds like you know your stuff. Stauffer diesel suggested the same thing, pull the head, replace head gasket.
> 
> Would have done it already, but it's still froze down right where she sits. Hopefully in a day or so we can get her moved.
> 
> Hopefully that fixes it, I've been dropping dead, dying, damaged or junk trees every afternoon for the last three or four days, have plenty of splitting for when it's running again.


 well I wouldn't shit ya :lol:


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

cmd said:


> well I wouldn't shit ya :lol:


AS I'm you're favorite turd?

Deutz uses goofy head bolts, inverted torx. Can't be all bad if it gave me an excuse to buy a set of those right?


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> AS I'm you're favorite turd?
> 
> Deutz uses goofy head bolts, inverted torx. Can't be all bad if it gave me an excuse to buy a set of those right?


lol, get that socket in 1/2" drive.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

cmd said:


> lol, get that socket in 1/2" drive.


Yup, already did.

Got it broke loose today. Then found some fittings so I could pressurize the circuit to release the "brakes".

Got it the shop, head ready to come off, just have to find a chinese contortionist to get at the turbo oil lines.

This motor is goofy with a capital goof. Like the resulting red headed step child of a drunken encounter between the old air cooled VW Beetle and a Briggs and Stratton.

PS. Pulled the glow plugs, three of em were absolutely oil soaked to the point where they went poof when I hooked a battery charger to em to test out of curiosity.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Yup, already did.
> 
> Got it broke loose today. Then found some fittings so I could pressurize the circuit to release the "brakes".
> 
> ...


Ok, turbo drain is slip fit into rest of the engine with an o-ring seal, do not unhook it, when you pop the head it will pull out, bring it out with the head. On re-install flip up the cab if you haven't already and lay a sheet of plywood over the hydros and have a buddy crawl in there to guide it back in. let the turbo and all on the head. I think you need to pull the whole oil pressure line out in order to preserve it, not that bad to do reaching over the top of the engine but it's working by feel and when putting it back together have your buddy stick around to watch you get all the washers in place on the banjo bolts. I think they are a pretty easy engine to work on, the cam belt and timing it is the strangest part.

When you buy the new gasket there are different ones, as you sit in the machine, I think the left front corner of the gasket will have triangle notches in it, the amount of notches ID's the gasket, make sure the new one has same amount.

Gaskets I have gotten were Victor Reinz and I haven't tried but I think a good NAPA man could set you up with that.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

PS if working on a bobcat like that doesn't cure you of them you are some dedicated. I don't know how you could hardly change a turbo without the head or whole engine out of the machine.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

cmd said:


> PS if working on a bobcat like that doesn't cure you of them you are some dedicated. I don't know how you could hardly change a turbo without the head or whole engine out of the machine.


Yup, already discussed about if the motor has to come out how do you ever get the front motor mounts loose, better yet how do you get em back in. I'm pretty sure who ever designed this model has a special little corner of hell waiting on em.

To be perfectly honest though, no matter the brand considering how compact they are I'm sure none of them would be fun.

Oh to be one of those rich farmers, needs a oil change, trade it in on a new one. Time to grease it, trade it in. Radio's broke, trade it in. Did have a guy in the area like that, turns out he hadn't paid his own family rent in 4 or 5 years, had too many new toys I guess.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Yup, already discussed about if the motor has to come out how do you ever get the front motor mounts loose, better yet how do you get em back in. I'm pretty sure who ever designed this model has a special little corner of hell waiting on em.
> 
> To be perfectly honest though, no matter the brand considering how compact they are I'm sure none of them would be fun.
> 
> Oh to be one of those rich farmers, needs a oil change, trade it in on a new one. Time to grease it, trade it in. Radio's broke, trade it in. Did have a guy in the area like that, turns out he hadn't paid his own family rent in 4 or 5 years, had too many new toys I guess.


yes and no, there are many modeled after the bobcat in the off brands which probably are no better but a new holland like 885 or newer is really not bad at all to work on if you take the 20 minutes to flip the cab and you can do about anything to the engine but pull it without doing that.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well the head gasket ideal was a good one, till I got the head off. Motor is JUNK. Cylinders 1 and 4 have serious scoring, 2 and 3 some but not as bad as 1 and 4. 4 is bad enough I actually found metal flakes in the carbon at the top of the sleeve and under side of the head.

I can see why head gaskets would need changed every few thousand hours with the lack of support except for the head gasket at the top of the sleeves.

I need to call Bobcat of Elkhart back and double check on that price they shot us. Depending on what an exchange motor costs and if their price included labor it may get dragged on a trailer and go to the dealer.

Looks to be interesting to actually get the motor out. I'm guessing unbolt the right front mount, the rear right mount, take the flywheel off, then unbolt the flywheel housing from the engine, move it slightly to the right and remove. If the hydrostatic pumps have to come out with the motor as an assembly then it just went from interesting to a complete pain in the ass.


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## cmd (Oct 26, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Well the head gasket ideal was a good one, till I got the head off. Motor is JUNK. Cylinders 1 and 4 have serious scoring, 2 and 3 some but not as bad as 1 and 4. 4 is bad enough I actually found metal flakes in the carbon at the top of the sleeve and under side of the head.
> 
> I can see why head gaskets would need changed every few thousand hours with the lack of support except for the head gasket at the top of the sleeves.
> 
> ...


I've never actually had one out but good luck on it, I really hope I never have to either.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

cmd said:


> I've never actually had one out but good luck on it, I really hope I never have to either.


It's as I guessed, unbolt right front mount that goes to the right of the hydrostatic assembly. Unbolt rear right motor mount, remove flywheel/pully assembly, unbolt flywheel housing and rotate motor out according to Bobcat dealer.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Anybody have any dealing with Stauffer Diesel in PA? Only one I've found thats willing to guarantee their rebuilds for a year.

http://www.staufferdiesel.com/Stauffer%20Diesel%20exchange.html


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

mlappin said:


> Anybody have any dealing with Stauffer Diesel in PA? Only one I've found thats willing to guarantee their rebuilds for a year.
> 
> http://www.staufferdiesel.com/Stauffer%20Diesel%20exchange.html


I see their ad every week in the Lancaster Farming but have always dealt with Holtry's due to proximity. I'd be curious too.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I lied, Memoparts, one year warranty on a drop in motor. http://www.memoparts.com/products/engines/deutz-1011/

The Bobcat has a 1011 series motor, Memoparts will trade that for a 2011 series, physically the same but a few more horses.

This is not a sleeved motor either, would have to be bored.

$4840.50 for a rebuild that's been dyno run then everything rechecked before shipment.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Stauffer can't help at this time, they have no 1011 or 2011 series in stock. About the same price as Memoparts if I wanted to send mine in and wait a couple of weeks. They can hook me up with a factory refurbished motor for $7K, I passed.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Holtry's got back to me today, they don't have any on the shelf either.

$6836 for a factory refurbished, 3 year warranty. 2-3 week lead time

$5000 if they rebuilt, 6 month warranty. 1-2 week lead time.

$3900 for a used 2011 series, no warranty. can ship tomorrow.

Think I'm going with Memoparts as they can ship tomorrow and for another $900 over the used one I can have a rebuilt with a warranty.

Looking at close to $2K for a rebuilt pump and injectors from the place we normally deal with. Then with boring the block, over sized pistons, having the crank checked/ground, having the head rebuilt and replacing the turbo with a reman I doubt I can touch the one at Memoparts for that.

Kind of interesting as have never heard of Memoparts before but being they are from Germany they specialize in european diesels.

http://www.memoparts.com/about/


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Once upon a time Memo sold some Deutz tractors here as Memo. They painted them a reddish color.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

The bore on 4 is so bad, you can actually move the piston around front to back and side to side.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

cmd said:


> I've never actually had one out but good luck on it, I really hope I never have to either.


New motor is in, lets not even begin to discuss what a joy it was reaching over a completely assembled motor and trying to align the front motor mount up and actually get bolts started all by feel.

Took care of a few other things while it was out.

Like a new machine. Went out and pushed on a dirt pile, spins both tracks without even beginning to bog down the motor. Real interested to see how a motor with compression starts next winter compared to what came out of it.


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