# The Plague Of The Urbanites.



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Unbelievable what this has evolved into.....North Carolina is out of control. The fourth paragraph says it all.

Regards, Mike

https://www.porkbusiness.com/article/third-smithfield-lawsuit-verdict-creates-alarm-among-producers


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Wow....Ashville is the new sin city. Unbelievable how far left it has gone.....sounds like the judge was a liberal as well. The legal system can be such a screwed up mess sometimes.....


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I dislike those urbanites that have moved out where I live. They have road rage because tractor/farm equipment doesn't travel fast enough on county roads/state highways. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that a tractor operator got shot at because tractor wasn't traveling fast enough/blocking county road.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Wow....Ashville is the new sin city. Unbelievable how far left it has gone.....sounds like the judge was a liberal as well. The legal system can be such a screwed up mess sometimes.....


Sinning is only reserved for the left now?


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Yeah it's sad here. Beef producers will be next.

Anybody in the Haw River to Cape Fear watershed will be a renewed focus. Basically Greensboro to Wilmington, about 20% of the state. The problem nobody thinks about is the pollutants caused by urban areas and their heavy concentrations.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Tx Jim said:


> I dislike those urbanites that have moved out where I live. They have road rage because tractor/farm equipment doesn't travel fast enough on county roads/state highways. It wouldn't surprise me to hear that a tractor operator got shot at because tractor wasn't traveling fast enough/blocking county road.


I may or may not have something to throw in return. I don't get white knuckles in Houston or D.C. traffic but I sure as heck do when being passed on a tractor. Fannyholes pass in severe blind spots and curves and I pray pray pray.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

What are they going to do if we all stopped producing tomorrow. I guess like Marie Antoinette said let them eat cake, oh wait there will be no cake.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So liberals want to make farming costs higher. Then they’ll squeal like pigs (pardon the pun) when food costs get higher.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.

IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> Sinning is only reserved for the left now?


Idk, you said it.......not me . I'll give you credit tho, typical leftist move.....
Don't put words in my mouth......er....keyboard


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

The state of Missouri passed a Right To Farm amendment in 2014

http://www.moga.mo.gov/MoStatutes/ConstHTML/A010351.html


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## woodland (May 23, 2016)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.
> 
> IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


I see your point and though I have never lived or been around a massive hog operation is this just the beginning of things to come? Once they get done with the big confined operations will they then pursue the cow calf guy or outdoor poultry possibly?

I guess I'm lucky living in the middle of nowhere and that my few neighbors are parents, cousins, or retired farmers. The open pit coal mine next door keeps the environmentalists occupied too. ????


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.
> 
> IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


You won't find me buying Smithfield products anytime soon if I have a choice, but....are you saying that's it's ok because it's a large producer from overseas that it warrants a 475 million dollar fine?
In other words, if this was Deans Pork and they had a few thousand pigs it would not be the same? 
We have seen that movie before and know how that one ends....if the producer just moved into the neighborhood I could understand the concern, and I don't know if that's the case or not, but if there is a large hog operation down the road and you don't like unpleasant odors and big trucks, I would suggest settling elsewhere......
I could see landowners suing for property devaluation if they moved the hog operation in "down the road", but that should have been fought at the local zoning level. I could even see a property owner suing if they bought an existing operation and expanded it significantly thus decreasing the value of the neighboring property. But 475 million dollars? If that holds true, a lot of people will soon be out of work in NC


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

The Farms in question are contract farmers. North Carolina is full of contract poultry and hog CAFOs. If the farm was owned by Smithfield then it wouldn't be a problem. The problem is the landowner will lose his livelihood and the precedent will be set. Companies will no longer stay in NC and move their operations elsewhere. The area will become even more impoverished due to lack of local dollars.

Chicken farming was touted as a good living with 'guarantees' of a good life. No more struggling with the ups and downs of commodities, no more worrying about raising crops for feed. For every poultry house you see, there are nearly half a dozen defunct.

NC already has a moratorium on new Hog CAFOs, Smithfield/Murphy Brown can't make the operations any larger than it is. What do you suggest we do with the hog waste? For crying out loud the urbanites ain't squealing like pigs about their waste disposal. It's just a simple flush the toilet. The municipalities spread human waste on farm fields and quite frankly, it is nasty. I think hog waste has to be purer than human waste, especially near waterways.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I saw Patrick Arbor, ex-Chairman of the CBOT, buy property behind a stable in Cook County and build a super-duper gazillion dollar house on it.

He then proceeded to make life a living hell for for the stable owners because of "odors" and other "nuisances". Having the power of influence, he pressured the local mayor, the Cook County Commissioners, etc., and forced the stable to implement daily manure removal, paddock cleaning, traffic control, and a few other expensive things.

Fortunately, what goes around, comes around--Arbor is now in jail for refusing to pay his ex-wife $15 million from their divorce settlement. Not to gloat (much), I hope he likes his orange uniform.

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Something tells me the farm was there before the developments that were built around the farm. If it was just business as usual at the farm, then a bunch of citytards move in developments around said farm, the farm should not be in violation of anything.

Now if the farm starting dumping raw sewage into their water or sumtin else goin on we dont know 'bout, then maybe the homeowners got grounds for what cha call compensation.

Other than that, dis lawsuit dont sound right.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Idk, you said it.......not me . I'll give you credit tho, typical leftist move.....
> Don't put words in my mouth......er....keyboard


How else am I to interpret "Ashville is the new sin city, it's unbelievable how far left it's gone"?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayjosh said:


> How else am I to interpret "Ashville is the new sin city, it's unbelievable how far left it's gone"?


It is unbelievable how far left it has gone....I venture over that way on occasion and it is stunning what has happened....the downtown area especially.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Vol said:


> It is unbelievable how far left it has gone....I venture over that way on occasion and it is stunning what has happened....the downtown area especially.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what this all means. What is 'left?' What constitutes a 'sin city?'

I'm picturing a city of Rastafarians smoking doobies and hating on cops.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what this all means. What is 'left?' What constitutes a 'sin city?'


Well, I can tell you what a leftist sin city would kind of look like  LOL
Maybe something like a bunch of victims and queers running around with vagina hats on burning the flag and spitting on ICE officers and pulling down statues, IV drug users sleeping and shitting on sidewalks or harassing people in the streets for handouts all the while supported and enabled by leftist liberal handouts and policies. Add to that a lot of porn stores, head shops, "red light districts", etc. probably would have a mayor and and a city council that passes laws making it difficult for law abiding citizens to carry, while creating "gun free" zones, so kooks can shoot up a library or a school without fear of a citizen carrying a gun to fight back......oh and can't forget the "free needle handout office". Here in Philly they're trying to get an area set aside where junkies can shoot-up and pass out under a giant tent and then be saved from their overdoses by city personnel standing by with narcam. 
Oh and don't forget the "sanctuary city status" of a sin city. I mean what's the typical American leftist sin city without a bunch of non-Americans walking around undocumented and untraceable and working for sub par wages so we all make less money? But wait there's more, we need those poor undocumented illegal immigrants to be able to VOTE, right!? 
Thats a small example of my idea of a "left sin city"

San Francisco, LA, Chicago, Philly, Baltimore are good examples


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. *The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.*
> 
> IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


Boo hoo. Within a mile radius of my house are 27,000 head of hogs. Yes, that's the right number of zeros. About 9,000 of them are barely a 1/4 mile away. Non of them are mine. Maybe I should start suing everybody in sight!



Hayjosh said:


> Sinning is only reserved for the left now?


No. The Bible says expressly that all have sinned. But it looks like the left is leading the charge.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayjosh said:


> Yeah, I'm trying to figure out what this all means. What is 'left?' What constitutes a 'sin city?'
> 
> I'm picturing a city of Rastafarians smoking doobies and hating on cops.


Your very close....their motto is "Keep Asheville Weird".










Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

It's like Memphis, Savannah, but in a whole different way.....we have democrats not lefties, purty much the same with a few differences. But they interbreed, because 90% don't have jobs and the others have really high pay jobs, so there's plenty of opportunity to procreate.....costs? They don't worry about those either.....someone else is gonna pay for it. Dads? A new one every year.....Food for the illegitimate...... ^^^^^ they pay for it again, Doesn't matter to them, whatever "feels good" 
It's quite a shame because Ashville used to be a beautiful town and a nice place to visit.....it's been infiltrated, much like the Democratic Party and quite honestly, the Republican Party as well....


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Gearclash said:


> But it looks like the left is leading the charge.


So we have a president that barebacked a porn star and has cheated on every one of his wives, we have Roy Moore who narrowly lost an election despite some pretty serious allegations, we have Dennis Hof in Nevada, a pimp and owner of Bunny Ranch brothel running for GOP state senate, don't forget Florida's Trey Radel who got busted for cocaine, Dennis Hastert got out of federal prison last year for sexually abusing boys, and I'm really supposed to believe the left is leading the charge? To add to that, I went through a list of compiled Federal sex scandals and tallied them up; 67% of them were committed by a Republican.

I think it's pretty delusional to say this is a 'left' thing, I think it's equally delusional to say it's a 'right' thing. I think you were doing pretty good there when you said all have sinned, as the Bible tells us. Being 'left' or 'right' doesn't make you any more susceptible to sinning and to believe otherwise, in my opinion, is nonsense. We're all fantastic, perfect sinners. I think the hard left and hard right have become so encrusted in delusion now they don't know their ass from their mouth, and when they talk it's hard to tell where it's coming from. It's a cancer for this country. Now Libertarianism on the other hand....(I might be slightly biased).


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Vol said:


> Your very close....their motto is "Keep Asheville Weird".
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, we have a real winner there. Just what we want our daughters to date, not. I am so glad I don't have a daughter.


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

Left right or center I've said for years mankind's greatest achievement and advancement in life is the ability to b*tch... Everyone is wrong. You change the world by example not by pointing fingers. Be the change you want to see in the world.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> So we have a president that barebacked a porn star and has cheated on every one of his wives, we have Roy Moore who narrowly lost an election despite some pretty serious allegations, we have Dennis Hof in Nevada, a pimp and owner of Bunny Ranch brothel running for GOP state senate, don't forget Florida's Trey Radel who got busted for cocaine, Dennis Hastert got out of federal prison last year for sexually abusing boys, and I'm really supposed to believe the left is leading the charge? To add to that, I went through a list of compiled Federal sex scandals and tallied them up; 67% of them were committed by a Republican.
> 
> I think it's pretty delusional to say this is a 'left' thing, I think it's equally delusional to say it's a 'right' thing. I think you were doing pretty good there when you said all have sinned, as the Bible tells us. Being 'left' or 'right' doesn't make you any more susceptible to sinning and to believe otherwise, in my opinion, is nonsense. We're all fantastic, perfect sinners. I think the hard left and hard right have become so encrusted in delusion now they don't know their ass from their mouth, and when they talk it's hard to tell where it's coming from. It's a cancer for this country. Now Libertarianism on the other hand....(I might be slightly biased).


Josh, you just can't see the forest for the trees......first off, none of those offenses or any other are off limits for left/right, republican/democrat. It's easy to see you're very liberal, I knew that from when you first joined the forum, and I always welcome anyone no matter their social leaning tendencies/political leaning tendencies etc. I would be willing to bet that you align yourself with the "neverTrump" crowd....you know the ones that wish the economy would tank, and he would be impeached, etc. I say that because you seem to believe everything you've heard from the so-called news media. I suppose it just depends on your perspective in life, when you get tired of buying other folks food/rent and paying for their babies so that they can buy tattoos/drugs and iPhones you too will have a different perspective, unless you're "hardcore" then you'll just think the awful corporations should pay for it, or tax the "rich" you know, the ones that make over 250k a year  hit their ass with a penalty for doing things the right way (or as a liberal would put it, a penalty for "white privileges") working their ass off, hit them with a 80% tax rate.....or ya know, people need to be able to raise a family with their job so the minimum should be $15 an hour......they just don't have the correct perspective. You see, if you have 4 eyewitnesses to a wreck at an intersection, and they are all in different areas of the wreck, when interviewing them, you'll have 4 different versions of the same wreck and you won't even think they're all talking about the same wreck, it's all about ones perspective. But, hey, there are a lot of folks depending on you to get your ass out and go to work so they can go fishing and drink booze all day, while you provide them sustenance and a place to live and procreate as well......for me, I would rather the folks that honestly need the help get the help, and leave a bit more money in the working folks pocket......surely you dont think that's where we are at? If so, you need to get out a bit and see things from a different perspective and turn msnbc, NBC, cbs, abc, fox off and think about things from that different perspective......
Trust me, you will see the light......sometimes it takes time. In the meantime, just hang with us....we done been around the block a time or two.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Hayjosh said:


> So we have a president that barebacked a porn star and has cheated on every one of his wives, we have Roy Moore who narrowly lost an election despite some pretty serious allegations, we have Dennis Hof in Nevada, a pimp and owner of Bunny Ranch brothel running for GOP state senate, don't forget Florida's Trey Radel who got busted for cocaine, Dennis Hastert got out of federal prison last year for sexually abusing boys, and I'm really supposed to believe the left is leading the charge? To add to that, I went through a list of compiled Federal sex scandals and tallied them up; 67% of them were committed by a Republican.
> 
> etc.


To quote our old milk hauler who was rather cynical "line em up and shoot em all", not to be taken seriously. I have no liking for any of the Republicans who have committed gross public misdeeds, and that goes for Trump too. His only redeeming virtue to me thus far is that he is not Hillary and he has/will appoint some conservative justices. I will ask you which party supports and which party opposes the barbaric act of abortion? Have you ever thought about implications of the thought process that justifies abortion? I see it as being the moral equivalent of saying your existence (whoever you are) is an inconvenience to me so I have the right to eliminate you. Not everything the Left/liberals/Democrats stand for is awful, but as a general rule I say they support the right ideas for the wrong purposes. Believe the Bible or not, if you let the 10 commandments (or at least the last 6) guide your beliefs, you won't go wrong.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Vol said:


> It is unbelievable how far left it has gone....I venture over that way on occasion and it is stunning what has happened....the downtown area especially.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I live about a five hour drive from there and not aware ever been near the downtown but well aware of what you are saying.

NC to me has been a state that has been moving more and more Liberal. In the 90's our office sold auto insurance. Soon learned NC was very lax on driver's license. We had so many none English speaking people with NC driver's license it was unreal. Do not remember the full reason but at that time NC was one of the leading states on issuing drivers license to illegals. Surprised me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gearclash said:


> To quote our old milk hauler who was rather cynical "line em up and shoot em all", not to be taken seriously. I have no liking for any of the Republicans who have committed gross public misdeeds, and that goes for Trump too. His only redeeming virtue to me thus far is that he is not Hillary and he has/will appoint some conservative justices. I will ask you which party supports and which party opposes the barbaric act of abortion? Have you ever thought about implications of the thought process that justifies abortion? I see it as being the moral equivalent of saying your existence (whoever you are) is an inconvenience to me so I have the right to eliminate you. Not everything the Left/liberals/Democrats stand for is awful, but as a general rule I say they support the right ideas for the wrong purposes. Believe the Bible or not, if you let the 10 commandments (or at least the last 6) guide your beliefs, you won't go wrong.


Abortion is the greatest sin of them all. Over 63,000,000 dead babies in 45 years.

Abortion is literally the platform or the stump upon which the liberal stands to sell her/his lies of their socialist utopias. 
Not unlike a foolish carnival barker, the liberal politician stands on his stump and says "Hurry, hurry, step right up and get your free [fill in the blank]".
We're so dumb as a society to believe these liberals and their offers of "free".

Haven't we learned the more we get for "free", the less FREE we are?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Palmettokat said:


> I live about a five hour drive from there and not aware ever been near the downtown but well aware of what you are saying.
> 
> NC to me has been a state that has been moving more and more Liberal. In the 90's our office sold auto insurance. Soon learned NC was very lax on driver's license. We had so many none English speaking people with NC driver's license it was unreal. Do not remember the full reason but at that time NC was one of the leading states on issuing drivers license to illegals. Surprised me.


For quite a few years, if you got a DUI and license suspended in Georgia you could just drive to either of the carolinas and get a license there.....purty common knowledge here, know several that have done it


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> So we have a president that barebacked a porn star and has cheated on every one of his wives, we have Roy Moore who narrowly lost an election despite some pretty serious allegations, we have Dennis Hof in Nevada, a pimp and owner of Bunny Ranch brothel running for GOP state senate, don't forget Florida's Trey Radel who got busted for cocaine, Dennis Hastert got out of federal prison last year for sexually abusing boys, and I'm really supposed to believe the left is leading the charge? To add to that, I went through a list of compiled Federal sex scandals and tallied them up; 67% of them were committed by a Republican.
> 
> I think it's pretty delusional to say this is a 'left' thing, I think it's equally delusional to say it's a 'right' thing. I think you were doing pretty good there when you said all have sinned, as the Bible tells us. Being 'left' or 'right' doesn't make you any more susceptible to sinning and to believe otherwise, in my opinion, is nonsense. We're all fantastic, perfect sinners. I think the hard left and hard right have become so encrusted in delusion now they don't know their ass from their mouth, and when they talk it's hard to tell where it's coming from. It's a cancer for this country. Now Libertarianism on the other hand....(I might be slightly biased).


Nobody here is saying every politician doesn't sin, just like you and I sin everyday. 
The issue here is that liberal politicians, who want to become our leaders, RUN ON A PLATFORM OF SIN!!

Everything FREE!
Whatever you want to do is FINE! 
We will support you from CRADLE to GRAVE!
Don't want your baby? We will mutilate it and throw the human life in the trash for FREE!

No personal responsibility, no morals. Talk about sin.....whew.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Any battle or discussion that is only emotional based will only cause hurt feelings and insults. Only when "civil" people will be open to the truth reasons and facts can anything be accomplished. Wonder where the old solid saying, "the truth will set you free"?

As to some charges that have been played here against President Trump and Judge Roy Moore maybe they are true and maybe they are not. That I am aware of no proof has been given with Judge Moore and only accusations. If you want to compare what happens when it is left as accusations versus proof compare Judge Moore to President Bill Clinton. One is a hero in the media and the other is destroyed by the same media.

However some times in life the truth does not matter, we will believe what we want to for our own reasons. What I do know no society can make it with what is being pushed by the liberals in ours. Not financially or with respect to respect of human life. Sin always has a price and it will be paid, maybe not on this earth but it will be paid both by a people and by the person.

If I may get back to the hog law suit: it is not fair when one land owner does something that harms another property. At same time there must be real fairness in all aspects there. International Paper has a plant about forty miles from me. Not as bad as it was forty years or so back but if the wind is just right the order of that plant will hit here and it is not nice. If those who have move in there were too be able to shut it down the thousand upon thousands who either work there or sell to those who do it would make it a area like inter Detroit. Slums and crime. I went to buy an adjustable wrench yesterday and all I found had made in China on them. Look at wood products, we raise the trees, we log and ship them to China to make our products and ship them back. No way is the shipping not more than the price savings with much lower salary. It is the threat of such lawsuits by people who only care about them selves and a government who has outgrown its right.

Soon you will be able to sue and win over the smell of a horse or a dog (maybe not dogs, they have more rights than a child) and then who will buy your hay, your corn what ever. Common sense has left this great land. Sad.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Josh, you just can't see the forest for the trees......first off, none of those offenses or any other are off limits for left/right, republican/democrat. It's easy to see you're very liberal, I knew that from when you first joined the forum, and I always welcome anyone no matter their social leaning tendencies/political leaning tendencies etc. I would be willing to bet that you align yourself with the "neverTrump" crowd....you know the ones that wish the economy would tank, and he would be impeached, etc. I say that because you seem to believe everything you've heard from the so-called news media. I suppose it just depends on your perspective in life, when you get tired of buying other folks food/rent and paying for their babies so that they can buy tattoos/drugs and iPhones you too will have a different perspective, unless you're "hardcore" then you'll just think the awful corporations should pay for it, or tax the "rich" you know, the ones that make over 250k a year  hit their ass with a penalty for doing things the right way (or as a liberal would put it, a penalty for "white privileges") working their ass off, hit them with a 80% tax rate.....or ya know, people need to be able to raise a family with their job so the minimum should be $15 an hour......they just don't have the correct perspective. You see, if you have 4 eyewitnesses to a wreck at an intersection, and they are all in different areas of the wreck, when interviewing them, you'll have 4 different versions of the same wreck and you won't even think they're all talking about the same wreck, it's all about ones perspective. But, hey, there are a lot of folks depending on you to get your ass out and go to work so they can go fishing and drink booze all day, while you provide them sustenance and a place to live and procreate as well......for me, I would rather the folks that honestly need the help get the help, and leave a bit more money in the working folks pocket......surely you dont think that's where we are at? If so, you need to get out a bit and see things from a different perspective and turn msnbc, NBC, cbs, abc, fox off and think about things from that different perspective......
> Trust me, you will see the light......sometimes it takes time. In the meantime, just hang with us....we done been around the block a time or two.


You are right Dawg, sin, or otherwise bad vices, are not reserved for any particular spectrum, that was the point I was making. But, you're really wrong about me. Like REALLY wrong  Allow me to explain myself. I am not actually really liberal. I am really moderate, militantly moderate. That means I sit and stare at all the BS that is surrounding me on all sides. To somebody who is hardcore conservative, that would come across as really liberal, but it's not. I vote Libertarian because I do not subscribe to a two-party system. And by virtue of my profession (scientist), I'm also only interested in the facts without bias. This means it's an active and arduous process to actually get to the bottom of a story. Almost all mainstream media outlets have some kind of agenda, and in my opinion, are not reliable. I do not subscribe to confirmation bias. When I see some really liberal friends on Facebook blaming all of society's problems on Republicans or Conservatives, that's just BS. To the other end of that spectrum, I observe the same effect here. The world really isn't that binary.

My personal grievances on Trump, for instance, do not come from what others tell me to think, they come from the words I literally hear come out of his mouth and the things he says in his tweets, and his behavior in office. They do not align with my values, which are driven by what Christ would do. I do not subscribe to the Never Trump movement, I do not wish for the economy to fail nor do I call for his impeachment (unless he were to actually commit an impeachable offense). Based on any facts we have available to us today, he's done nothing illegal or remotely impeachable. I will absolutely give him an 'atta boy' if he deserves it, and I really pray for his success with North Korea and Iran.

But we get these caricatures of conservatives and liberals and, for the most part, they're just wrong. Consider these things about me: I support the police (I would actually go into law enforcement as an alternative career if I got tired of science), I own a nice arsenal of firearms (SW .45 auto, .243 bolt action, .22 LR semi, .22 mag bolt action, AR-15, 12g semi, 12g pump, 20g single shot); I am a Christian; I'm self-made and I work HARD (this you probably might have gathered...hopefully!); I think abortion is barbaric; I loathe whiny people who do not want to own their actions and make their own way, expecting the world to be given to them (which is the new hyper liberal); I do not have debt (with the exception of a mortgage I've almost paid off) nor do I expect anything to be given to me; I do not subscribe to taxing the rich more just because they're 'rich,' I do not understand where the Democratic party stands for anymore; I scoff at the concept of open borders and if you illegally cross into this country then you must be deported, but this must be done humanely and without splintering families. I believe the left and the media is overreacting to Trump and I believe the right is overreacting to the left. I will pay the extra money to buy something that's Made in USA. I have voted for both Republicans and Democrats. That's just a start.

What's the other side? Well I support gay marriage 100% because our sexual orientation is largely not chosen and there is no rational legal basis for making it unlawful; I support the legalization of marijuana; I am not prejudiced to Muslims, immigrants, minorities, homosexuals like so many on the right are; I believe if that baby is worth it to be born then it is worth it to support it if it needs the support, I do not hold the poor in contempt for being lazy bums because there are a number of circumstances that contribute to this; privilege really is a thing (but personal responsibility still goes a long ways), racism in America is still alive and well; I am a Patriot not a Nationalist; I will tend to favor more regulation than less; I am a gun enthusiast that does not buy into NRA propaganda and I'm supportive of some gun control measures; I support the right to protest peacefully (even if it includes kneeling) and I believe the president's calling for their punishment for doing so (firing) is a violation of free speech and our First Amendment rights; the media is not the enemy of the people it is the enemy of the government.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> You are right Dawg, sin, or otherwise bad vices, are not reserved for any particular spectrum, that was the point I was making. But, you're really wrong about me. Like REALLY wrong  Allow me to explain myself. I vote Libertarian because I do not subscribe to a two-party system.
> 
> My personal grievances on Trump, for instance, do not come from what others tell me to think, they come from the words I literally hear come out of his mouth and the things he says in his tweets, and his behavior in office. They do not align with my values.....
> 
> What's the other side? Well I support gay marriage 100% because our sexual orientation is largely not chosen and there is no rational legal basis for making it unlawful; I support the legalization of marijuana; I am not prejudiced to Muslims, immigrants, minorities, homosexuals like so many on the right are; I believe if that baby is worth it to be born then it is worth it to support it if it needs the support, I do not hold the poor in contempt for being lazy bums because there are a number of circumstances that contribute to this; privilege really is a thing (but personal responsibility still goes a long ways), racism in America is still alive and well; I am a Patriot not a Nationalist; I will tend to favor more regulation than less; I am a gun enthusiast that does not buy into NRA propaganda and I'm supportive of some gun control measures; I support the right to protest peacefully (even if it includes kneeling) and I believe the president's calling for their punishment for doing so (firing) is a violation of free speech and our First Amendment rights; the media is not the enemy of the people it is the enemy of the government.


Ok, I can respect your position, they differ from mine in some aspects but blend perfectly in others....
But to the first point, being a scientist and trained in the world of binary......you vote libertarian because you don't believe in a two party system  so much for the candidate, You're voting out of protest.....that's a productive liberal tactic.....for the liberal cause but it's very binary.

I agree that gueers can be "married" if that's what they want to call it....I could really give a shit less, they should be entitled to the same financial benefits but.......when it comes to other issues such as school books with two mommies and two daddies being pushed into the face of those that don't participate what's the answer? Do they have the "right" at that point to take out all the books.....and replace them with what? What about the baker? Should he really have to bake the damn cake......
These are issues that are "downstream" from your original issue of a "union/marraige". It's a complicated issue with many facets......there are no real "right/wrong" answers but the ramifications are far reaching.
I used to be for the legalization as well....figured we might as well tax it. Then they legalized it and all those "downstream" problems start occurring (imagine that).....we have plenty of problems and costs associated with legalization, no more apparant than now....here it's a misdemeanor as long as you're not carrying around large quantities for distribution. That seems to work ok here.....
I can assure you, you are prejudiced against some people and that's very evident from a different perspective, perhaps you don't think you are to some of those other folk, I try not to be as well....but, I think deep down, we all have some form of prejudice it's enivetable.....remember it's not binary . The trick is to try to judge on ones actions, but that's hard to do when they group themselves together as a religion/race/nationality tends to do.....purty sure its just human nature.
I too think if a baby is born that it needs support.....that's why I believe that abortion is a choice that the woman/man should make, if the parents don't want it, nor do I and I sure as hell don't want to pay for it.....it's hypocrisy to say you want limited government but you want the government to have control of a woman's body, so I'm out. 
I am like you with respect to the poor as well.....but what is poor? I've helped people regardless of their color,nationality, sexual orientation, or political alignment.....but I don't hand them money. It never works out best...but in the course of life, I've had the privilege of meeting all kinds of people, some that I left thinking "wow, they are poor as hell" (ever visited the Appalachians?) but ya know what Josh, those people are proud....they may be "poor" financially, but they're not sitting on their ass waiting on a handout, I admire that mentality a lot more than some of the others I see that don't have a pot to piss in, but want to blame society and want reparations from me (the privileged guy) so, I'm as liberal as the next to some degree with regards to humanity.....I just want a conservative approach as the liberal approach we've employed for the last 50yrs has created an absolute mess, more of those "downstream" problems....
Racism, you're right, it's alive and well in America and every other country......another "human nature" that ain't gonna leave....but, doesn't it go full circle? Or is racism just alive like in white folk racist against black folk? I've spent my life in the middle of the race game.....I can speak volumes on the subject. But I always default back to MLK....judge by the content of their character. It's something I always try to do....drove my father crazy, he sure hated him and everything he believed in....that's because he spent his life locking the black bastards up (LE 34yrs) he also locked MLK up  course that's what MLK wanted, it was all about the movement so he was certainly treated with kid gloves. But most folks I came across respected the civil rights movement and what it stood for.....but that's a bygone era, the contrast is stark it's a money grab....but yea, it's still around, so what? What can we do about it.....or is it just a one-way street
I tend to favor less regulation.....
I too have a large collection of weapons and the appropriate ammunition, more than I could possibly ever need, it's somewhat of an addiction....and I've never been a supporter of the NRA. 
I always support the right to protest peacefully, until you start protesting our anthem/flag/nation....you can protest all kinds of things peacefully but I don't ever support that type of behavior......I mean I really could care less if they want to do it, but if I was the owner....I would tell them not to do it again or fire their ass.....it's not the time or place to protest. But, ultimately they will pay the price for their poor judgement, not me.....
The media has been corrupt in this country for the last 40 yrs Josh.....that's about the only binary I can come up with, if not for the fact that the networks compete to see who can be the most corrupt from opposite sides of the spectrum, we would never be able to disseminate a logical/rational version of the truth, pathetic I know but that will never change. It's kinda like that two party system....seriously flawed but I would rather look at credentials and what truth I can disseminate than turn to "protest" there will never be a perfect candidate, never.....


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

Dawg I think what hayjosh meant was he votes based on the facts of each candidate. not republican or democratic but if the green party has a candidate that more aligned with his views he would vote for them. Same as if they were republican or Democrat. At least that's what I got out of it. you're not limited to only the two parties like everyone thinks.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Dawg those are all respectable points of view too, thanks for sharing, and I learned something about you! Sure there's some differences but we're all different and we're both adults and can respect differences in opinion. Several points you made stand out to me particularly...

--legalization of marijuana. I kind of threw that part in near the end of my thought gathering as I still support it in 'principle,' for the reasons you stated (tax the hell out of it), but now after it's been out in Colorado for a few years, exactly the opposite of what I thought would happen...is happening. More crime because it's bringing in all the riff raff who want legal weed. Kind of makes you wonder if it were legal everywhere (and not concentrated to a single spot) if the crime disappears because it's no longer concentrated to one spot. On the other hand, the tax money has been a windfall for Colorado schools.

--prejudism. You made a point that we're all prejudiced. That sure is the truth and I can't deny it either, and I know where my prejudices lie. I also just want to make sure it's known that I'm only sharing my views as my own personal opinions on where I stand, for the sake of discussion and not because I believe I occupy the moral high ground or am trying to change anybody's opinion (well, except maybe your opinion of me  ). Obviously we always want to be on the side of what's right, but that's also why I'm constantly shifting in where my views align. I can't tell you in 5 years what my views on a given topic will be as we gain new information.

I think it's very constructive to learn what people think and understand why they do.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Best definition of todays Liberals that I've seen yet.

Seeing as how the term liberal has changed over the past century I would agree that American Communist is appropriate for today's radical leftists. A classical liberal is defined as this&#8230;"Classical liberalism is a political ideology and a branch of liberalism which advocates civil liberties under the rule of law with an emphasis on economic freedom." That doesn't sound like any so-called liberal I know today. Sounds more like a conservative or libertarian. Calling someone a "liberal" doesn't quite have the sting it once did. Maybe the popular vernacular needs to change to Commtard.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Aaroncboo said:


> Dawg I think what hayjosh meant was he votes based on the facts of each candidate. not republican or democratic but if the green party has a candidate that more aligned with his views he would vote for them. Same as if they were republican or Democrat. At least that's what I got out of it. you're not limited to only the two parties like everyone thinks.


 That's exactly it. In the last election cycle people told me I was throwing my vote away in voting third party. But if I'm forced to vote for only one of two parties, there's not actually any freedom in that lest I not vote at all. To me, throwing my vote away was to vote for a candidate that I didn't believe in. I knew a Libertarian candidate would not be elected, but there was still an opportunity for the party to get major party status if they had a certain number of votes. Getting major party status opens lots of doors to opportunities.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Hayjosh said:


> That's exactly it. In the last election cycle people told me I was throwing my vote away in voting third party. But if I'm forced to vote for only one of two parties, there's not actually any freedom in that lest I not vote at all. To me, throwing my vote away was to vote for a candidate that I didn't believe in. I knew a Libertarian candidate would not be elected, but there was still an opportunity for the party to get major party status if they had a certain number of votes. Getting major party status opens lots of doors to opportunities.


I did that years ago, voted for Ross Perot, and we got Clinton. I will never do that again. Sometimes it is the lesser of the two evils.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> Dawg those are all respectable points of view too, thanks for sharing, and I learned something about you! Sure there's some differences but we're all different and we're both adults and can respect differences in opinion. Several points you made stand out to me particularly...
> 
> --legalization of marijuana. I kind of threw that part in near the end of my thought gathering as I still support it in 'principle,' for the reasons you stated (tax the hell out of it), but now after it's been out in Colorado for a few years, exactly the opposite of what I thought would happen...is happening. More crime because it's bringing in all the riff raff who want legal weed. Kind of makes you wonder if it were legal everywhere (and not concentrated to a single spot) if the crime disappears because it's no longer concentrated to one spot. On the other hand, the tax money has been a windfall for Colorado schools.
> 
> ...


Legalization....ya, the "downstream" doomed the issue for me, but isn't that the way it always is....the vote for the issue gets tied to education....put an E in the cause and holy smokes we'll vote it in no matter how bad the "downstream" appears.....taxes for roads, lottery, splost taxes, you name it, if it builds another school it gets passed. And in the meantime, the little pot smokers can't remember what they ate for supper last night because they were gettin stoned with their buddies because society has seemingly accepted it, and there is always plenty of idiots letting you know it's legal. Parenting just got a bit tougher.....
Prejudice....hell, I'm prejudiced for my high school football team when we play anyone else.....I'm prejudiced when we play in the Olympics.....ditto for my beloved Dawgs.....and my Younguns. And yes, I have formed a bit of prejudice against liberals but I can tell you that most of America lies in the center. We usually don't align completely with our party platform, especially nowadays, and I think that's healthy in today's political climate. What worries me is the rhetoric that keeps getting perpetrated, the idea that you can't be against anyone's views in the party. Right or Left, there is a huge center....To not do so would be a "drink the kool-aid" type of mentality and I don't subscribe to that at all.....(u know what that is? Google "jim jones Guyana") there are those that would like to highjack the Republican Party, the infiltration, I believe has already started.....hopefully we can get rid of some of the waste this election cycle. The political "Game" moves slowly however, one thing for sure, the pace picked up with Trump....and the vile conduct by the press has been something like I've never witnessed.......never. The press has been on a steady downhill decent in terms of honest accurate reporting for years and years, very few investigative/objectionable reporters nowadays, if they are, they're independent of the networks and their "company line"....The problem with the press is they become so powerful in the meantime, it was a smart move for Trump to take them on, people like myself have a distain for them and have had it for years.....
The talk used to be about the Death Penalty.....that was a big one, sadly that's not a "hot topic" anymore. I think we should kill em a bit quicker when the guilt is overwhelming. I just don't get the whole thing......but it started as a liberal ideal, the "downstream" got us again


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> Wow....Ashville is the new sin city. Unbelievable how far left it has gone.....sounds like the judge was a liberal as well. The legal system can be such a screwed up mess sometimes.....





Vol said:


> It is unbelievable how far left it has gone....I venture over that way on occasion and it is stunning what has happened....the downtown area especially.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Boy if that ain't the truth. Asheville has been taken over by queers, tree huggers, and other wierdos......a very liberal left winged city. Have heard it called the San Francisco of the south. I avoid going into Asheville as much as possible.....most especially the downtown area. The Biltmore Estate area is pretty nice but just about the rest of the city has went to hell.....literally.

Hayden


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Biltmore is just unbelievable......what a place.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> The talk used to be about the Death Penalty.....that was a big one, sadly that's not a "hot topic" anymore. I think we should kill em a bit quicker when the guilt is overwhelming. I just don't get the whole thing......but it started as a liberal ideal, the "downstream" got us again


I'm conflicted on where I stand on the death penalty. We hear so frequently of people that were executed only to be exonerated years later due to advances in science technology (this I can attest to) or something else. But sure, when the guilt is overwhelming...roast em and toast em. Like the next day.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

FarmerCline said:


> Boy if that ain't the truth. Asheville has been taken over by queers, tree huggers, and other wierdos......a very liberal left winged city. Have heard it called the San Francisco of the south. I avoid going into Asheville as much as possible.....most especially the downtown area. The Biltmore Estate area is pretty nice but just about the rest of the city has went to hell.....literally.
> 
> Hayden


 So if I'm the most 'left' person here...I was just in San Francisco a few weeks ago and yeah, those people freaked me out. WEEEIIIIRRRRDDD. Literally insane. There were a lot of brain neuron synapses just not making the connection. Sometimes I almost felt like I was in a parallel dimension. Yeah, I'm prejudice against these people. Join society and love and respect yourself.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hayjosh said:


> I'm conflicted on where I stand on the death penalty. We hear so frequently of people that were executed only to be exonerated years later due to advances in science technology (this I can attest to) or something else. But sure, when the guilt is overwhelming...roast em and toast em. Like the next day.


But we don't hear of it frequently, but the media would certainly make a huge deal out of it, ratings would go up.....and even one is inexcusable. However, the jails are full of ones that ain't a "who done it"'......bilking the taxpayer out of money. I believe even a life sentence ought to have some hope of parole.....I don't agree with life with no possibility of parole, just kill 'em and be done with it, why keep 'em alive, just doesn't make sense to the conservative in me.....seems like common sense, idk


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.
> 
> IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


Yeah, what he said...

Ya know there were a lot LESS problems when most of the hog farms were 100 sows or so, back when half the farmers in the Midwest raised hogs to 'walk the corn off the farm'...

They "chickenized" the industry and made it so the little farmers couldn't make a buck, and drove them out of the hog business, and then *presto* we get these big 100,000 hog operations that stink up half the county and produce as much sewage as a small city, then they wonder *why* they get sued for being a nuisance...

Course, like someone else said, it's mostly just "junk lawsuits" everybody wants "something for nothing" and everybody wants power and food just "NIMBY" (Not In My Back Yard)... Nobody wants wind turbines or power plants or farms or livestock around messing up their "country living" but everybody still likes to eat, and they all want dirt cheap food in the supermarkets... Guess they can get it all from China when they finally bankrupt and run the American farmer out of business for good... sure that'll work out well for 'em...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Hayjosh said:


> (snip)
> 
> (I might be slightly biased).


Only smart thing you've said... LOL

Later! OL J R


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Ole Jeff, totally agree with when hogs and will add cows and chickens were spread out there certain were some advantages over huge groups of any animals.

Of course profit wise would not work.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Hold on. These "urbanite" neighbors weren't suing a small family farm. The defendant in this lawsuit is a multinational agribusiness. At the end of the article, it clearly states that the parent company is in Hong Kong. The operation probably has several thousand hogs on site at any given time. No wonder the neighbors sued.
> 
> IMO, these huge corporations try to get sympathy (and legislative protections) by claiming to be small, country bumkin farmers just trying to raise their families - hogwash! (pun intended). They give the rest of us a bad name.


No, these lawsuits are against small family farms that raise contract hogs for Murphy brown and Smithfield. The family farms own the land and the buildings, Smithfield owns the hogs. This is bad deal for agriculture because the gates are open for lawsuits on anything including dust off of a haybaler. I raise turkeys on the same kind of arrangement, only the company I raise for is local family owned business with 220 growers and not headquartered out of Hong Kong. Still, I would rather have one 10,000 head confinement operation near me rather than 10 one thousand head pasture raised farms with hogs running wild everywhere and mud pits every time it rains. I am not a fan of Smithfield, but we better stand behind the local family farms affected or we will all be facing lawsuits every time a cow farts, or we slow down traffic or make some dust.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Back in the 80's and 90's there was a group that tried to get all cows off of government land. I think there slogan was "cow free by 2000". These animal activist will do anything to stop the use of animal flesh as food. There was an article that was in the Colorado State University paper, the writer of the article thought it we all would be better served that if all the water that livestock drink would be put to use in growing crops. I guess they have never been to the Red Desert here in Wyoming; you could not grow any sort of crop out there. The only thing that will grow out there is sagebrush and greasewood, heck a jack rabbit has to pack his own lunch.


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