# Making a Living Baling Hay



## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

I'm sure this has been asked several times before, but I am wondering how much acreage does it take for a guy to make a living selling hay. Here is the scenario. 100 acres owned free and clear of good coastal fields. I think you can get good reliable equipment and setup an irrigation system for 150k-200k. Small coastal square bales sell for $7-$8 in this area on a normal year sometimes as high as $10 a bale. By my numbers with expenses it looks like you can profit roughly $4 per bale of hay sold. At 4 cuttings a year and 2 tons a cutting that's somewhere around 30,000 bales a year cut. Profit around 120k a year. Do these numbers sound close to being accurate? I am looking to maybe making the switch some day and investing in good equipment and setup the whole operation. Thanks for the input.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Good luck on your venture. I agree with you that's there's more potential for profit making/selling small sq bales than other methods but as I'm sure you're aware there's more risk's. I think being able to irrigate will lessen the risk but definitely increase your cost.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I think if you cut your profit estimate to 40-50k you might be closer to accurate but I don't know your costs. You will need storage, don't forget to account for your depreciation either.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Soggy Bottom said:


> I'm sure this has been asked several times before, but I am wondering how much acreage does it take for a guy to make a living selling hay. Here is the scenario. 100 acres owned free and clear of good coastal fields. I think you can get good reliable equipment and setup an irrigation system for 150k-200k. Small coastal square bales sell for $7-$8 in this area on a normal year sometimes as high as $10 a bale. By my numbers with expenses it looks like you can profit roughly $4 per bale of hay sold. At 4 cuttings a year and 2 tons a cutting that's somewhere around 30,000 bales a year cut. Profit around 120k a year. Do these numbers sound close to being accurate? I am looking to maybe making the switch some day and investing in good equipment and setup the whole operation. Thanks for the input.


You're right it has....(1) you ain't gonna put a pivot on 100 acres and buy the EQ needed and storage for 150-200k. (2) where is the labor? Not one penny of labor was included.....(3) not all cuttings are square bale quality.....(4) competition? 
You're close on your est. for profit per bale after inputs, but there's more work to do in order to finish the numbers. 
I would probably come in under slow' in terms of actual profit.....hth


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

I have attached quick spreadsheets I came up with for cost and equipment. I Know the numbers are not perfect but its a starting place. On the hay sheet I did figure in labor for baling and stacking hay. I do currently own a tractor and some other equipment that can used for haying. I did not figure in storage as I think I should have plenty of storage with existing buildings on the property. For irrigation I think I can get a K line pod system for +/- 30k in the beginning. Thanks for the input. I know its not a rich fast venture just looking at if a living can be made with this setup.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Soggy Bottom said:


> I know its not a rich fast venture just looking at if a living can be made with this setup.


Hay making is not even a rich slow venture.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

it appears from viewing your spread sheets I see no allocation for labor, fuel, parts or insurance. What type fuel/elect is going to get water on the grass?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Marketing is another cost.You just don't bale it and they will come.

Alot of people required it delivered or they wont buy it.Yes they should pay more for delivery but it takes eq. and time.

What I've seen over and over someone decides to produce hay and then they find out its not as easy to sell as they think so they chop the price to get it to move


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

Thanks for the input. I need to add cost of moving the K line system daily and the power to run the well 24 hours a day.


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

Another couple of questions. Is there a rule of thumb for figuring fuel usage (i.e. so many bales per gallon)?

Also, I do have labor at 1.40 a bale for cutting and baling and $1 for stacking. Wouldn't my personal labor be payed for by the profits?


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## Jimmy Bartlett (Aug 17, 2015)

on the revenue side: one of those cuttings might get wet and become worth $2.50/bale instead of $10. if you don't get one wet, then you might have one cutting that's overgrown (and be worth $4/bale). The $7-8/bale business is elusive, and might become a real pain in the rear (as swmnhay mentioned above)


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Here's my wet blanket:


Can you every year produce 8 ton of hay per acre? Is 8 ton an acre presently being done in your area?
Can you put up 100% of your hay at premium condition, every year?
Is 300# of fertilizer per acre enough? IDK what type of hay you are producing, but in my neck of the woods, I put off around 50# of K and 8-10# of Phos. per ton of hay removed (which would mean about 650# of potash & 125# of MAP in my case @ 8 ton, also would be alfalfa - alfalfa/grass, naturally your type of hay could be different). 
I see weed spray (does that include application cost?), so I'm going out on limb here, how about insecticide? Some folks in the southern states often mention something about an army and maggots.  Maybe you don't have these critters to deal with. 
Can you sell every bale, every year for your price (as other's have mentioned)?
Where did you bury the cost to cut,/ted/rake? Is that all in the the $1.40 a bale? If so, I'm guessing some folks might just hire you to do some custom work. 

If it was possible to do hay at your numbers (over $1,250 per acre), I imagine we would have lot more hay producers. Heck, even at $1,000 an acre profit there would be a lot more hay folks, IMHO.

Enough water for now,

Larry


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

I made some adjustments to my numbers and added a yearly note on buying equipment. My profit numbers still seem high by what I am reading. What else needs adjusting or added?


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

Retired now but i still do some startup business consulting .......here are a few general things you need to consider based on comments ...i briefely glanced at your P&L projections so nothing is specific

#1 every business has risk ....risk needs to be weighted for example vs just getting a job elsewhere and sleeping easy every night

#2 you need to include your living costs IE your salary/payroll taxes/insurance/workmans comp/ etc since if you got "get a job" those would be included with little or no risk....your time in life is worth something

#3 nothing is "profit" until you include all your costs

#4 costs need to also include items such as...property taxes...insurance....Interest...accounting...legal...regulations...cash flow...maintenance....repairs...depreciation...

#5 lost opportunity costs need to be considered.....such as if your going to put 200K into equipment etc ....how much opportunity is lost for example by not just buying bonds etc with that money and sleep well every night

#6 others have outlined production and marketing risks/costs already

#7 what is your plan in case you are hurt or get sick and cant work?

#8 are others in your area making a go of it doing the same thing? rarely are anyones ideas unique if others are not doing it then why not? and how can you do it better than them?

good luck sir .......no hill cant be climbed just have to know if what is at the top is worth it ....


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

You never know on prices . I am on another web site ag talk and with such low corn and soybean prices last couple years , so many on ag talk said they planted alfalfa will the hay business be surplus city next year


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I think you need to look into subsurface drip. I would think on 10 foot centers you would get more than. Adaquate coverage and setup on 4 zones where you can water 3 at a time would be ideal. Allowing you to conteniously be cutting 1/4 of you property at a time which if you do a quarter a week would be about the perfect schedule for Bermuda. You could also utitilize a smaller well to water the same average. 
Here is a picture of subsurface drip in one of my pecan orchards. Can you tell where the drip line is?


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

Maybe I need to ask my question another way. I guess I am really wondering are my numbers way off base not necessarily if you can make a living. I understand every year is different and there are always unexpected problems. Just wondering what other numbers need to be figured in and if the numbers I am using are way off. Thanks again for the input.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I think on small square I could do it. Figure on Tifton 85 or if you have a market for haygrazer summer and clover/ryegrass or triticale winter you could make the tonnage on subsurface drip.
Or just go half alfalfa half somthing else. 
But say on haygrazer I could probably do 4 cuttings at about 10 bales an acre at 1400lbs. So 14,000 of hay an acre. And on that same eland in the fall/winter I could do 6 or so ryegrass bales at 1500lbs or 9000lbs an acre. 
And being subsurface drip you spend less on fertilizer since you putting it in the rootzone. Not sure 100% in grasses but in pecans you use 1/3 less nitrogen if fertigating subsurface drip. And if you fertigated after each cutting man you would be growing some grass. Not having to travel through the field to fertilize.
So say 15,000lbs an acre Andi know nothing about a square bale but I figure they are 75lbs? That's 200 bales an acre at $4 wholesale that's $800 an acre or 80,000 a year. I would think you would need a barn, a bale accumlation setup. But 100 acres your labor would be just you.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

I think fuel usage for a 65-100 pto hp tractor will be in the 2.5-3.5 GPH range. I know my M7040(64 pto) uses 2.5 & my JD 4255(128 pto) uses 3.2 GPH polling my rd baler


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I doubt you would use more than 2000 gallons a year of diesel. Doubt fertilizer would be over $6,000 a year if injecting 32-0-0.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

Not sure about your location but some water types are not best to be sprinkled onto the grass. For 30k you 100% could install subsurface drip and never have to move pods around. I have had kpods before they are work. If you are on sandy soils with gophers then I would reccomend biting the drip.deep enough you can use a gopher machine twice a year. The machine is about 1,000 and the bait for 100 acres would be less than $400 a year.


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## dvcochran (Oct 1, 2017)

Soggy Bottom said:


> Maybe I need to ask my question another way. I guess I am really wondering are my numbers way off base not necessarily if you can make a living. I understand every year is different and there are always unexpected problems. Just wondering what other numbers need to be figured in and if the numbers I am using are way off. Thanks again for the input.


It would really help to show the math behind the spreadsheet cells. I cannot follow your output totals.

From my experience I see a lot of people spend too little on the mower (highest maintenance machine) and in your case the baler. A new or very good MoCo (which I suggest) is going to be north of 20k and the same for even a moderately used baler. You are close to the price of a new 10 wheel V-rake so I would budget for a new one at around $6,500. You will need a tedder. The cost is proportional to operational time based on size (2-4-6-8 basket). I assume 20k is for a tedder/rake tractor? Sad but that is not going to buy much cab tractor with a loader these days. A utility tractor without a loader is basically a really big lawn/field mower. Plus if you are buying two tractor you will be wise to have two that will handle any of the work. The mower/baler tractor will break down right when you need it at some point.

What is your level of skill/knowledge and shop/tools/materials to keep up with inevitable maintenance and breakdowns?

I have done industrial control & automation all my life and primarily do cradle to grave LS and VLS projects. I know this is non-descript but, especially since you are starting from scratch with a lot of unknowns that you do not even know to consider, you have to factor on some fudge. Even in companies that have made the same product for decades very few projects or equipment builds can identify 100% of costs. Even the repetitive commodity equipment we build have variables sometimes.

Everyone on this forum can chime in with a suggestion and something(s) will come up unexpected.


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## mstuck21 (Oct 4, 2019)

My 2 cents:

I'm not a big fan of the "spend 200k plus to start a business" model.

If you want to find out if you can bale hay as a full time gig, why not spend $10k +/- on used or borrowed equipment and try baling say 10-20 acres. You'll answer a lot of questions for yourself and limit your $$ risk. What if you decide you don't really like making hay? OR you could catch the hay bug and keep growing.

Just sayin a lot of hay has been made without half the equipment on your list. I'd start barebones and if you decide to continue on, reinvest into the business upgrading your equipment as you go.

You have the land. That's a big hurdle. But just bc you don't have a land payment doesn't mean that you need an equipment payment.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I think your fertilizer costs are low,you will have to do the math.

Cut and Pasted from a article

When haying, forage is harvested from one field and either sold or fed in another area. Either way, essential plant nutrients are being removed from the hayed field. There are 50 to 60 pounds of nitrogen, 14 to 17 pounds of phosphorus and 30 to 40 pounds of potassium in one ton of bermudagrass hay.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I do not think for 100 acres a cutter will cost 20k. Heck this year I bought a brand new dc102 rubber roll conditioner machine for $18


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I do not know how much a square baler cost but I have seen what looks like clean looking ones for 20k. So I would think 50k should get you your cutter, rake and baler. I would atleast get some sort of accumalators setup for square bales.
So 2 tractors at 30k each hay equipment at 70k and a barn to store it at 50k and irrigation your looking at 200k startup cost.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

I would add a round baler and do custom hay work too. That's where the money is made. Cut 3-100 acre fields for 3 different people. Average 2 cuttings a year at 3 bale an acre is 600 bales at $30 a bale 5x6, and you just made 18k a year to pay for your equipment


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

mstuck21 said:


> If you want to find out if you can bale hay as a full time gig, why not spend $10k +/- on used or borrowed equipment and try baling say 10-20 acres. You'll answer a lot of questions for yourself and limit your $$ risk. What if you decide you don't really like making hay? OR you could catch the hay bug and keep growing.


That's the model that many of us started with.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Herbicide costs are way off. Rezilon is $22 per acre and you have to spray it twice, so $44 per acre per year. If it doesn't work perfect you have to add costs to burndown in the Spring and also other post emerge herbicides to keep the field clean during the Summer. If stem maggots arrive on site then you may be spraying every 10-14 days for the remainder of the season. That is about $2 per acre per application , I think. I'm sure I will get corrected if I'm wrong on the cost.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Mar 14, 2015)

Stxpecans123 said:


> ...3 bale an acre is 600 bales at $30 a bale 5x6, and you just made 18k a year to pay for your equipment


In your "making" of this 18k did you burn any fuel? Grease anything?? Use any twine/net? Break anything? Run over something and wreck a tire? Put some away for wear and tear on the equipment? Account for depreciation on all the equipment? Suddenly your 18k just shrunk considerably... haha


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

Not sure what Rezilon is but I know it cost me $7 an acre here for P+D. I have priced a few pre-emergents and they seem to be around the $7-$10 mark. I updated my sheet showing $20 an acre for herbicide and added a $1.50 labor per bale for myself and other part time help for hay season. Seems the numbers now look like what I have read here from the responses. Thanks


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I don't grow B grass hay, so I leave that part of the equation to the folks who do (fert, weed control & un-wanted critters, along with possible production amount). Just with a few changes your profit per acre has taken quite a hit, welcome to the hay making world. Hope you can match your numbers, and Mother Nature is kind to you (at least the first few years, with those payments needed).

I'd also suggest keeping your day job, until you can see more daylight of being underwater in debt. At least you will have a way to groceries on the table that way. 

Good luck.

Larry


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

chevytaHOE5674 said:


> In your "making" of this 18k did you burn any fuel? Grease anything?? Use any twine/net? Break anything? Run over something and wreck a tire? Put some away for wear and tear on the equipment? Account for depreciation on all the equipment? Suddenly your 18k just shrunk considerably... haha


Fuel burned would be less than 300 gallons. Netwrap on 600 bales is only $600. I think the expenses could just as well roll out of your initial budget. So that 18k might turn into 15k but just as easily could turn into more if they yeilded higher. 
I am not sure where original poster is from but only insect I have seen been an issue with Bermuda is army worms in the fall and that is easily controlled with lambda which is very cheap.
No doubt there is probably 1000 reasons to not try it but if you don't take the jump you won't ever know. 
Around here 5x5/5x5.5 bale of good Tifton hay will bring $85 at that rate is it worth dealing with small square bales? 
Also around here a person can find decent land for $20/acre a year lease and probably free for a year or 2 of rent if you were planting it as such. Coastal doesn't really need irrigation if it's on rented land in most places coastal is grown.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

All I know if you do try to go with this, I would 100% look into subsurface drip. Pivots are a pain in the ass and constant maintmence


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Mar 14, 2015)

Stxpecans123 said:


> So that 18k might turn into 15k but just as easily could turn into more if they yeilded higher.


Run over a broken off T-Post and have to buy a back tire and tube and your 18k just went down an easy 2k. Hit a rock with the discbine and tear up a cutter bar, there goes 4k bucks. Get unlucky and have a few of those issues in 1 year and your suddenly barely breaking even.

By no means am I saying not to do it (I do a lot of custom work) but money doesn't just roll in hand over fist.

The house I'm living in and farm that goes with was bought for pennies on the dollar from the bank. Previous farmer came here with great dreams of how to make tons of money custom baling and growing hay. He went big and lost it all.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Rezilon is the newest pre emerge herbicide for Bermuda. Advertisements are all over Haytalk. Stem maggots are a silent killer. Many people have them and think it is something wrong with the plant. When you see the damage it’s too late. They can easily cost you 1/3 of your yield per cutting. Research Bermuda Stem Maggots. UGA has the best info on them. I’m in no way trying to discourage anyone from Hay Farming. It can be very rewarding. I have had many great years until this year. Just too much rain made it very difficult to make good quality hay. I was told I couldn’t do it too but I have been very successful I feel.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

If you want to make a million farming hay, start with 2 million.

The big profit killer is repairs. Don't forget the cost of fuel and what a Biden win will do to that price. You'll eat that. Also remember there's plenty of guys out there selling hay for $3/bale running old haybines and Farmall As. Not that there's anything wrong with that.....but they will have a lot lower inputs than you.


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## clowers (Feb 11, 2011)

Im with Broadriverhay, I have had maggots 3 years in a row, when you figure out you have them it's too late. Always seem to be on potentially my best cutting when i get fertilizer timed right. Haying is a sickness and all of us have it. I think you may just have a high fever right now. Good luck with your fever and your future endeavors.


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## Soggy Bottom (Feb 4, 2020)

Thanks for all the help. It seems there is a lot less money made in hay than numbers show to be. Guess I will re-analyze my future plans on this land. Thanks again


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Soggy Bottom said:


> Thanks for all the help. It seems there is a lot less money made in hay than numbers show to be. Guess I will re-analyze my future plans on this land. Thanks again


You are smart to look very closely at this business venture.....it can be done, but it is fraught with potential problems. When all goes right with the weather it can be good, if all goes right with insects it can be good, if all equipment works great it can be good, but the chances of them all going right is very slim and won't happen more than twice during the year......then you have to store, market and sell, that too can be challenging when dealing with the horsey crowd. Good luck, it's one that you have to really crunch the numbers and get lucky from time to time....


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

Don't forget the four letter word that everyone seems to run from. WORK. And a lot of it.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Soggy Bottom said:


> Thanks for all the help. It seems there is a lot less money made in hay than numbers show to be. Guess I will re-analyze my future plans on this land. Thanks again


I had same visions as you. The execution of the objectives a little different on my end. I started 7-8 years ago. I did not buy a farm and I didn't inherit any type of land or machinery. I started from scratch 100% and I farm other peoples property. Much to the annoyance of others, I kept upgrading from relics, to semi-relics, to currently available equipment all the while paying off pieces and taking a low amount of salary.

What I would suggest more than anything is start small AND have a side gig with a "guaranteed" income. That's what I do. I have steady mowing income, somewhat steady construction income and hay income. 
Here's what MY observations have been over a relatively short 7 year "not-a-real-farmer" farming career:
1. expenses are much greater than I anticipated. I have an average of $7,000/yr in broken or damaged equipment beyond my repair capability. Stuff breaks more than you think.

2. fuel expenses much greater than anticipated. Between farming 400 acres, driving 3 diesel trucks and the mowing I do, I'm spending ~$12,000 on fuel annually.

3. accounts receivable slow to arrive. Farming is risky business. I let an account get ahead of me, owner declared bankruptcy and stuffed me for $6,500.

4. weather plays a huge role in when you will farm. You are not in control. You WILL work saturdays and Sundays. You WILL miss your kids sports, concerts, etc. It will affect your family life to some extent. You WILL get calls for hay on weekends. You will ruin all your work clothing. :lol: And most of all, you WILL be told "you can't do this" by many. Some will be encouraging, but many will tell you that you bought the wrong tractor, wrong truck, wrong fertilizer, etc. You have to stay encouraged and focused. You have to prepare for change to the extent possible. Even elections of socialists. 

Those are my experiences, yours will vary. I have talked to more than my comfortable share of guys who were going to make a million baling hay. They got out over their skis too far and sold out. 
Slow, steady growth. Manageable debt. Realistic expectations. 7 days a week.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I had same visions as you. The execution of the objectives a little different on my end. I started 7-8 years ago. I did not buy a farm and I didn't inherit any type of land or machinery. I started from scratch 100% and I farm other peoples property. Much to the annoyance of others, I kept upgrading from relics, to semi-relics, to currently available equipment all the while paying off pieces and taking a low amount of salary.
> 
> What I would suggest more than anything is start small AND have a side gig with a "guaranteed" income. That's what I do. I have steady mowing income, somewhat steady construction income and hay income.
> Here's what MY observations have been over a relatively short 7 year "not-a-real-farmer" farming career:
> ...


Go get em JD. Sounds like a lot of pearls in there


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

The dollars and cents can budgeted with some hard digging. Taking the optimistic and pessimistic views and hoping reality is in the middle.

But the thing people without ag background miss is the timing that JD pointed out. My wife of 40+ years still wants me to commit to things 6 months in the future, I keep saying I will tell you a few days before. Many things need doing on God's schedule not man's. You can do a bit to pick the day to a degree but things still happen that just happen. So if your not ready for that don't even think you can make your living from hay.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I had same visions as you. The execution of the objectives a little different on my end. I started 7-8 years ago. I did not buy a farm and I didn't inherit any type of land or machinery. I started from scratch 100% and I farm other peoples property. Much to the annoyance of others, I kept upgrading from relics, to semi-relics, to currently available equipment all the while paying off pieces and taking a low amount of salary.
> 
> What I would suggest more than anything is start small AND have a side gig with a "guaranteed" income. That's what I do. I have steady mowing income, somewhat steady construction income and hay income.
> Here's what MY observations have been over a relatively short 7 year "not-a-real-farmer" farming career:
> ...


How much rent do you pay? That line item (land) is gonna be probably numero uno on most people's balance sheets. Even if you own it, still have opportunity value.


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

mstuck21 said:


> My 2 cents:
> 
> I'm not a big fan of the "spend 200k plus to start a business" model.
> 
> ...


I 100% agree......in our area of the country you can get small square bales custom made for ~2$ a bale.....cut to laying in the field.....on small farms.....probably get it for $1.5 a bale on a large contract .......something to consider ......


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

JD3430 said:


> I had same visions as you. The execution of the objectives a little different on my end. I started 7-8 years ago. I did not buy a farm and I didn't inherit any type of land or machinery. I started from scratch 100% and I farm other peoples property. Much to the annoyance of others, I kept upgrading from relics, to semi-relics, to currently available equipment all the while paying off pieces and taking a low amount of salary.
> 
> What I would suggest more than anything is start small AND have a side gig with a "guaranteed" income. That's what I do. I have steady mowing income, somewhat steady construction income and hay income.
> Here's what MY observations have been over a relatively short 7 year "not-a-real-farmer" farming career:
> ...


excellent write up.........then when its all said n done whatcha gona do if you get sick or hurt ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

ttazzman said:


> excellent write up.........then when its all said n done whatcha gona do if you get sick or hurt ...


Could be said for any self employment situation. I also own a construction company. It can't operate without me working, but it's more possible than with farming. It's almost like farming is for someone who wants every possible challenge thrown at them for pretty meager wages and incalculable risks. 
My mom, God rest her soul always told me, "you always loved a challenge".


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Farming for sure doesn't make any sense to actively pursue as a business venture. But some of us are born with the bug that makes us pursue it even though there's many easier and cheaper ways to try to make money.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Never forget ,,, In a good yielding hay year , guess what , everyones hay did good , and for what you have priced your hay , old Joe down the road is going to sell it cheaper and get your customers unless you come down in your price . It NEVER fails . The people hobby farming dont care about the $ . That will hurt you more than the weather or weeds . 90% of the people buying hay are going to look at price first . You may have to take a hit the first year to get your quality of product in the minds of people , but even at that , unless your selling to race horses , the price of old Joe down the road will get ya every time .


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

siscofarms said:


> Never forget ,,, In a good yielding hay year , guess what , everyones hay did good , and for what you have priced your hay , old Joe down the road is going to sell it cheaper and get your customers unless you come down in your price . It NEVER fails . The people hobby farming dont care about the $ . That will hurt you more than the weather or weeds . 90% of the people buying hay are going to look at price first . You may have to take a hit the first year to get your quality of product in the minds of people , but even at that , unless your selling to race horses , the price of old Joe down the road will get ya every time .


Yep. Most, not all, Horse people have never believed the hay farmer is entitled to a nickel in profit. So long as you have 2-3 guys in the area willing to sell $3/bale, the people who own easy keeper yard ornament horses will flock to them. You need to be in an area where there's a demand for high quality hay and a willingness to pay $10/bale.

Up until a few years ago, we had a guy who would pull a full wagon of hay up & down the horse farm roads and sell for $3 off the wagon. 
I sell 90% of my hay to the mulch hay market. I ran into one of my fellow farmers in my area there while we were getting our trucks unloaded. We were complaining that prices had dropped to $110/ton for mulch because of Covid.  He told me he was getting $90/ton 35 years ago!!!!

Now I don't know about you, but not many products have increased only 20% in the last 35 years. 
Tractors? Mowers? Trucks? Hay tools? Houses? Food? Fuel? NOPE.

Hay does not, and seemingly never will keep up with increasing prices of literally everything else


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I do make a living making hay and can only wish I could even come close to the price that gets mentioned on here. For my area I'm selling 1st for $3.50 and 2nd for $4.50 out of the barn $.50 increase this year. Out of the field is 1st $2.50($0.05 increase from last year) 2nd $3.00. Even when I had a good year and was shipping hay it was still $4.50.

We have a very loyal customer base and at 15,000 + bales a year still can't get any volume in the barn to sell during winter. We have decided a couple more years of improving fields and were doing a $.25 across the board. If the quality is there customers will pay. We utilize 3 price points: Field pick up, prepay and stored, winter sales.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

IH 1586 said:


> I do make a living making hay and can only wish I could even come close to the price that gets mentioned on here. For my area I'm selling 1st for $3.50 and 2nd for $4.50 out of the barn $.50 increase this year. Out of the field is 1st $2.50($0.05 increase from last year) 2nd $3.00. Even when I had a good year and was shipping hay it was still $4.50.
> 
> We have a very loyal customer base and at 15,000 + bales a year still can't get any volume in the barn to sell during winter. We have decided a couple more years of improving fields and were doing a $.25 across the board. If the quality is there customers will pay. We utilize 3 price points: Field pick up, prepay and stored, winter sales.


Wow, thats incredible. What do your bales weigh? 
I think you deserve more than that for your hard work, but I know you cant do much if everyone is selling at same price


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

JD3430 said:


> Could be said for any self employment situation. I also own a construction company. It can't operate without me working, but it's more possible than with farming. It's almost like farming is for someone who wants every possible challenge thrown at them for pretty meager wages and incalculable risks.
> My mom, God rest her soul always told me, "you always loved a challenge".


...did construction and engineering all my working life as a owner......retired to play farming.....the one thing about farming is it can be debt intensive and many things cant wait even a week......so that in itself magnifies the self labor issues ...so its something to keep in mind when taking those "incalculable risks" .......i have very strong feelings about Debt risks worthy of a full discussion in itself ......we must have had similar Moms


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Wow, thats incredible. What do your bales weigh?
> I think you deserve more than that for your hard work, but I know you cant do much if everyone is selling at same price


35-45 lbs. 4 years ago when we had surplus put 2nd at $5/bale. If somebody called they would just hang up upon hearing the price. If they came to look at them they became customers. The comments we get is how big the bales are, how much hay is in them. Had customer last year take my bales to knock down the price of another seller when I ran out.

For 4x5 rounds 1st are $55. Only made 20 of them as that size not in much demand. we raised the price of the 4x4 to $40 and that's pushing it with our price points. A 4x4 represents approx. 5% savings over squares and a 4x5 approx 10% savings over squares. Hard to compete when you can find hay on craigslist for $25/bale


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

@IH1586 . I don't look at other so called farmers prices. The guys selling cheap around here don't lime , fertilize or control weeds. If they want to sell hay and loose money that's up to them. You can't make money at $3.50 - $4.50 a bale and do it right, at least not down here. You can't store it until the hard Winter hits and then get a better price? If you go up on your price and sell quality you would have a barn full going into the Winter . I have a solid customer base and sell hay year round. I store hay for the customer all year. Most of my customers don't have enough storage for a years supply so most get hay about every 6-12 weeks. That process has been successful for me. I don't jack the price around either . I get $6 a bale in the barn year round. The first thing I do when someone calls is talk quality and make sure they understand what they are getting. I will also give new customers 10 bales to try if needed just so they can see the difference in quality , size and weight. Good luck and don't sell your self short!!


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'll add to JD's, a big cost in money and time for me is keeping a truck and trailer running, plated and insured for deliveries. I can't sell hay here without delivering unfortunately.

Selling from storage has its own set of problems but can cut down on capital if your fields are all nearby.

The time commitment issues causes lots of conflict with family too, don't underestimate the damage to relationships if your spouse/kids aren't very independent.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

broadriverhay said:


> @IH1586 . I don't look at other so called farmers prices. The guys selling cheap around here don't lime , fertilize or control weeds. If they want to sell hay and loose money that's up to them. You can't make money at $3.50 - $4.50 a bale and do it right, at least not down here. You can't store it until the hard Winter hits and then get a better price? If you go up on your price and sell quality you would have a barn full going into the Winter . I have a solid customer base and sell hay year round. I store hay for the customer all year. Most of my customers don't have enough storage for a years supply so most get hay about every 6-12 weeks. That process has been successful for me. I don't jack the price around either . I get $6 a bale in the barn year round. The first thing I do when someone calls is talk quality and make sure they understand what they are getting. I will also give new customers 10 bales to try if needed just so they can see the difference in quality , size and weight. Good luck and don't sell your self short!!


Sure sounds easy. But the experience with $5 tells the story in this area. I could jack the price to $6 and I would have a barn full of hay and would still have it going into the following year. Just to much hay in this area and quality means nothing to most people here all they look at is $$. I will bet when we raise prices in the next couple of years by just $.25 we will lose a quarter of our regular customers, but some will come back when they realize what's out there.

I could raise the price to $6 then would have quantity to ship out for $4.50 and that's if he would pay that, last time he came it was $4. What's the difference?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

IH 1586 said:


> Sure sounds easy. But the experience with $5 tells the story in this area. I could jack the price to $6 and I would have a barn full of hay and would still have it going into the following year. Just to much hay in this area and quality means nothing to most people here all they look at is $$. I will bet when we raise prices in the next couple of years by just $.25 we will lose a quarter of our regular customers, but some will come back when they realize what's out there.
> 
> I could raise the price to $6 then would have quantity to ship out for $4.50 and that's if he would pay that, last time he came it was $4. What's the difference?


I almost wonder if you'd be better off selling out of the field to a broker down in my area?

7 years ago, I sold hay for $3/bale, he picked them up and sold them from his barn. I had 0 indoor storage, so it made sense for me. 
Have you explored that avenue? You might get $4 now. That was a while ago


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I almost wonder if you'd be better off selling out of the field to a broker down in my area?
> 
> 7 years ago, I sold hay for $3/bale, he picked them up and sold them from his barn. I had 0 indoor storage, so it made sense for me.
> Have you explored that avenue? You might get $4 now. That was a while ago


All the brokers that inquire do so during the off months and none have expressed interest purchasing out of field. The other thing we won't do is leave our loyal base without hay in search of a few more dollars. It will happen because of yield increase/locals not wanting to pay the increase in price.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> I'll add to JD's, a big cost in money and time for me is keeping a truck and trailer running, plated and insured for deliveries. I can't sell hay here without delivering unfortunately.
> 
> Selling from storage has its own set of problems but can cut down on capital if your fields are all nearby.
> 
> The time commitment issues causes lots of conflict with family too, don't underestimate the damage to relationships if your spouse/kids aren't very independent.


But even if you all you do is deliver, you still need dry storage. 
That's why I partially gave up on all feed hay and went to 80% mulch hay. 
I can leave bales over 15% outside and get 110/ton. My fields are mostly crappy so it's difficult to make quality hay on them and I only have enough dry storage for 200 4x5s, so why fight a battle that's unrealistic to win? Another issue about my area is the conservancies bought up a LOT of the farmland and they won't allow chemicals. That makes it even tougher. 
Hey Im always looking and asking about the nice fields when they come available and some have! It's just not a large part of my field portfolio....maybe 25%. When I do make nice dry bales, they go inside. The rest goes to mulch. It's a reasonable plan and I keep all my options open and I keep mowing fields and building what I can for customers.

Its working and beginning to get better.

Election results will be huge in determining future expenses. Biden wins-fuel doubles.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Dang , sounds like a tough business up there. SC has a hay deficient ever year from what I have always heard. My customers beg me to keep them on the books every year. I guess I'm just fortunate to have such a loyal customer base. I've been doing hay for 12 years and they said they always struggled to get good quality hay consistently before. They are always so appreciative when they get hay whether delivered or picked up. I had one lady that asked me to cut the price this year because it was over mature, I told her no because it would sell because every ones was over mature in this area too. She declined the hay but one phone call and her hay was sold. She had said earlier she would never turn down any of my hay again because before she did and then what she got was of such poor quality. Oh well .


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Being a bit dramatic on fuel prices, it would take signs of worldwide economic recovery to drive oil up. I think we still have 1-2 years of depressed oil. Anyways way outside the scope of this chat.

Yes, storage required even with delivery but with some stress and good tarps, parking for 800-1000 bales that doubles as winter storage area for equipment keeps me moving along. We have a monster old dairy barn that will hold 10,000 bales but I hate to put more than 2000 or so bales in it for all the work to get them out.

We have same issue with leased fields, owners wanting no chemicals. In that sense owning the ground is much better for ease of management.



JD3430 said:


> But even if you all you do is deliver, you still need dry storage.
> That's why I partially gave up on all feed hay and went to 80% mulch hay.
> I can leave bales over 15% outside and get 110/ton. My fields are mostly crappy so it's difficult to make quality hay on them and I only have enough dry storage for 200 4x5s, so why fight a battle that's unrealistic to win? Another issue about my area is the conservancies bought up a LOT of the farmland and they won't allow chemicals. That makes it even tougher.
> Hey Im always looking and asking about the nice fields when they come available and some have! It's just not a large part of my field portfolio....maybe 25%. When I do make nice dry bales, they go inside. The rest goes to mulch. It's a reasonable plan and I keep all my options open and I keep mowing fields and building what I can for customers.
> ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> Being a bit dramatic on fuel prices, it would take signs of worldwide economic recovery to drive oil up. I think we still have 1-2 years of depressed oil. Anyways way outside the scope of this chat.
> 
> Yes, storage required even with delivery but with some stress and good tarps, parking for 800-1000 bales that doubles as winter storage area for equipment keeps me moving along. We have a monster old dairy barn that will hold 10,000 bales but I hate to put more than 2000 or so bales in it for all the work to get them out.
> 
> We have same issue with leased fields, owners wanting no chemicals. In that sense owning the ground is much better for ease of management.


Well, diesel was over $4/gal under Obama. Im paying $2.15 now.

If Biden wants to implement the "green new deal", I think one could easily reason $4-$6/gallon.

That CERTAINLY plays into the thread "making a living baling hay"


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

If fuel goes up hay has to go up. We can’t absorb the higher fuel prices. I did when fuel was $4 but not again.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

broadriverhay said:


> If fuel goes up hay has to go up. We can't absorb the higher fuel prices. I did when fuel was $4 but not again.


Im not in control of mulch hay prices. I could try to bump my feed hay prices, but as has been said over and over again, theres always plenty of guys out there selling hay for $3/bale or $25/RB


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Oil pricing is bigger than Trump/US, it will go up as soon as use climbs again and gives those traders hope of recovery. This extended low price has killed refinery upgrades and restarts all over the world its hard to restart those projects so it will pressure prices upwards depending how soon ships and planes start zipping around again. The oil storage facilities are full the world over at the moment. I work in fire protection and we can't get any of our storage tank projects done anywhere as everyones tanks are full to the brim.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> Oil pricing is bigger than Trump/US, it will go up as soon as use climbs again and gives those traders hope of recovery. This extended low price has killed refinery upgrades and restarts all over the world its hard to restart those projects so it will pressure prices upwards depending how soon ships and planes start zipping around again.


US is the big boy and drives oil prices. Sure, prices will go up a little with demand, but nothing like it did when Obummer and Bite-me were in charge.

Weve had dirt cheap oil long before the pandemic.

The Biden "green new steal" will have us all eating "no frills" canned food and setting thermostats to 55* with $5/gallon oil because hes going to curtail domestic oil, gas & fracking production. Then we have to buy oil from unstable countries again. They dont have our best interests in mind.

Jimmy Carter crap all over again.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

US shale oil cost falling and also some geopolitics with OPEC and Russia drove the oil price crash in 2014-2016, before Trump arrived on the scene. In a strange twist, it and natural gas are so cheap its helped kill coal off pretty effectively, better than the environmentalists at least.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> US shale oil cost falling and also some geopolitics with OPEC and Russia drove the oil price crash in 2014-2016, before Trump arrived on the scene. In a strange twist, it and natural gas are so cheap its helped kill coal off pretty effectively, better than the environmentalists at least.


Coal has been cut back and demonized for sure, but Sleepy Joe, Krazy Kamala and the AOC + 3 will turn coal into a memory in less time than it takes Old Joe to finish out his first year.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Taxes taxes and more taxes on the price of fuel. California with it's version of Green new deal gas and diesel are a buck a gallon higher than US average. Biden with congress's help will try to raise prices of fossil fuels, world wide demand or price be dammed. Just my interpolation of "fazing fossil fuel out". Not meaning to side track this from the original question, just another cost of doing business.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ray 54 said:


> Taxes taxes and more taxes on the price of fuel. California with it's version of Green new deal gas and diesel are a buck a gallon higher than US average. Biden with congress's help will try to raise prices of fossil fuels, world wide demand or price be dammed. Just my interpolation of "fazing fossil fuel out". Not meaning to side track this from the original question, just another cost of doing business.


Meantime technology has tailpipe emissions are down like 75% since the 70's but the environmentalists are never satisfied.
We will get emissions down to next to nothing, then they will demand zero emissions.
Next they'll want negative emissions and carbon credits from us.

All this crap to placate white guilt for slavery and reduced polar bear habitats causes so many problems for people just trying to make a living.


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## Stxpecans123 (May 18, 2020)

If biden get elected does he kill the iran sanctions? If he does maybe oil falls? Then agian I wouldn't doubt an oil price war in the middle east if that all happens causing tensions over there and could jack up oil prices. No crystal ball on oil here.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Back to making money on hay, seeing some guys on here with similar desperately low hay prices do you also have animals/feed your own hay?

I only ask as we got some cows to feed low quality hay so we could:

-Capture nutrients in manure to go back on our fields to offset fertilizer cost

-Avoid selling any low quality product as people seem to associate your name with a single quality level.

-Avoid small square baling / handling low grade hay

-Make use of some rough ground as pasture

It has been a pain in the arse but instead of loosing money on our low quality hay we have been able to make something. We are in the process of buying 25-30 acres of rough pasture adjacent to us for some flexibility too as we have turned 12 acres of existing rough pasture into hayfield.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Agreed slowzuki. I don’t market low quality hay. Any questionable hay goes straight to some friends with cows. I don’t cut the price to horsey people.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I try to avoid making low quality hay (naturally) but thanks to some rotten weather forecasters that's why I have a few cows (actually 20). However, with a RB wrapper, I made no lower quality hay this year.

I agree with both Slow and Broad, avoid having any 'cheap' hay for sale, be known for quality hay only.

Larry


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

r82230 said:


> I try to avoid making low quality hay (naturally) but thanks to some rotten weather forecasters that's why I have a few cows (actually 20). However, with a RB wrapper, I made no lower quality hay this year.
> 
> I agree with both Slow and Broad, avoid having any 'cheap' hay for sale, be known for quality hay only.
> 
> Larry


I have had success talking to my feed customers, assuring them my outlet for everything less than feed quality bales go to mulch hay.
I think it works well when they know I won't try to sell them anything over 15% moisture, high weed count, over mature, etc.

Im grateful to have a way to dispose of less than nice hay without the need for cows.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Maybe completely off topic but since we are talking all this buisness , quality , price stuff , besides the obvious convienience , yet added cost , does a bale baron / bale bandit actually add any value to the hay , especially to a jockey ???????????


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

siscofarms said:


> Maybe completely off topic but since we are talking all this buisness , quality , price stuff , besides the obvious convienience , yet added cost , does a bale baron / bale bandit actually add any value to the hay , especially to a jockey ???????????


Why not? With enough volume those or a NH Stack Curser can make a lot of sense. Seems I read somewhere they could keep up with 3 small balers. That's a lot of hay per hour, IMHO. And if you are shipping the Bandit/Barron might even be more advantageous. I wouldn't think the folks with them bought them just for bragging rights. 

Larry


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

r82230 said:


> Why not? With enough volume those or a NH Stack Curser can make a lot of sense. Seems I read somewhere they could keep up with 3 small balers. That's a lot of hay per hour, IMHO. And if you are shipping the Bandit/Barron might even be more advantageous. I wouldn't think the folks with them bought them just for bragging rights.
> 
> Larry


But you're answering "does it add value to the operation" vs "does it add value to the hay".

It may add value to the hay but it would depend on the market. It would definitely add some value to hay that is shipped as it seems people get more bales per semi when in bundle form.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Ya that’s a tricky question....it does add value to the hay, only because the hay is now easier to transport. However, It adds even more value to the operation.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

I had a pull type stack wagon and liked it , even tho after it was in the barn it was a load by hand . But , it was a convinence , no extra money for actual hay , got more hay up in a day . So it was a advantage . BUT , I had 5k in stackwagon , not 80k , for a used one , in a balebaron . Only way I see it making money is by volume of hay . It may make a sale easier , and miss some because if I ever did that I would not bust bundles for the 5 bale at a time guy . Still would like to try one tho . It would pay , I think , in ways in labor , fuel , barn space .


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

siscofarms said:


> I had a pull type stack wagon and liked it , even tho after it was in the barn it was a load by hand . But , it was a convinence , no extra money for actual hay , got more hay up in a day . So it was a advantage . BUT , I had 5k in stackwagon , not 80k , for a used one , in a balebaron . Only way I see it making money is by volume of hay . It may make a sale easier , and miss some because if I ever did that I would not bust bundles for the 5 bale at a time guy . Still would like to try one tho . It would pay , I think , in ways in labor , fuel , barn space .


Ya, we don't bust bundles....but, we usually have some that may have had a mishap  along the way and we store this separately for those customers. Still can't get too excited about it, we probably sell 200-300 loose bales but not really by choice.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

siscofarms said:


> Maybe completely off topic but since we are talking all this buisness , quality , price stuff , besides the obvious convienience , yet added cost , does a bale baron / bale bandit actually add any value to the hay , especially to a jockey ???????????


As a producer and a jockey I can assure you the packaging adds value, BUT not to every customer/account. When I made the switch I gained some customers and lost some strictly because of packaging. While I miss the relationships I built with those I no longer serve I am thankful I no longer have the joy of throwing 8 ton in their second story barn. There are better ways.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Stxpecans123 said:


> Not sure about your location but some water types are not best to be sprinkled onto the grass. For 30k you 100% could install subsurface drip and never have to move pods around. I have had kpods before they are work. If you are on sandy soils with gophers then I would reccomend biting the drip.deep enough you can use a gopher machine twice a year. The machine is about 1,000 and the bait for 100 acres would be less than $400 a year.


Sub surface irrigation must be cheap to buy and install over there. .... There is not a chance in hell of irrigating 100ac here for 30k...... Be more like 400k ....... Even a pivot is 2000 per acre WITHOUT the motor and pump set and the piping.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> Being a bit dramatic on fuel prices, it would take signs of worldwide economic recovery to drive oil up. I think we still have 1-2 years of depressed oil. Anyways way outside the scope of this chat.
> 
> Yes, storage required even with delivery but with some stress and good tarps, parking for 800-1000 bales that doubles as winter storage area for equipment keeps me moving along. We have a monster old dairy barn that will hold 10,000 bales but I hate to put more than 2000 or so bales in it for all the work to get them out.
> 
> We have same issue with leased fields, owners wanting no chemicals. In that sense owning the ground is much better for ease of management.


Well, diesel fuel prices have jumped 60 cents per gallon in just a few months. There's no wars, there's no large natural disasters, no spike in demand. Very little has changed in the last 2 months.

Price at my fuel stop was 2.19/gallon about a month and a half ago. It's now 2.79/gallon.


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## bahaduran (Mar 30, 2021)

Such a useful thread, guys, with precious tips, thanks. And I noticed it only today, hah. I have recently discovered an article about how to enter international markets and if anyone is interested in it here is the link https://recfaces.com/articles/how-to-enter-the-international-market. It tells the story of a company that growing up made a great success.


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## Markpnw (Dec 27, 2019)

If hay made that much money every other person would put up hay. You did not include labor costs. For premium small square bales you need to have pole buildings or barns to store it.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Tensions with Iran, houthi/Iran tension with Saudi's and ship jammed in the canal certainly look like the prices have room to move higher too. Also saw the US economy numbers climbing pretty quick.

Will have to see what happens with Iran. They have had a bunch of internal protests recently due to fuel prices there. Government removing the subsidies.



JD3430 said:


> Well, diesel fuel prices have jumped 60 cents per gallon in just a few months. There's no wars, there's no large natural disasters, no spike in demand. Very little has changed in the last 2 months.
> Price at my fuel stop was 2.19/gallon about a month and a half ago. It's now 2.79/gallon.


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