# Addicted to Propionic Acid



## Bishop (Apr 6, 2015)

I've run propionic acid now for a few years doing small squares, and well, I've gotten a bit used to always putting it on, even if the hay reads dry.

Yesterday I baled up hay that a few years ago I would have been pretty sure was ready to bale. Tested 17% on the moisture tester, stems of the clover snapped nicely and didn't peel, twisted good in the hand, relative humidity was low, ground was dry.

Everything told me that it would bale nicely and keep - but I still put acid on anyways at the lowest rate I can go (4 lbs / ton).

Does anyone else do this? I haven't made moldy / dusty hay since I bought a tedder and started using acid.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I used to, but since going to Circle C rollers if the Harvest Tec says it's 17% or under it won't heat or get dusty, 18% to 21% gets 2lbs/ton.

I'd treat it all at 4lbs/ton with acid and never messed around with "dew" settings, mainly so I could get it off the field and in storage immediately.

4x5 rounds btw with pressure set to max on a BR740A, I like hauling 1000b bales to the sales, 800lb bales seem to actually sell a little better, but the ton difference in loads and the resulting check makes it more efficient to haul heavier bales.

Found if a person bought the acid in totes and prepaid the year ahead you could almost always keep acid cost under a $1/pound.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

A friend treats all his hay with acid, just as an insurance policy. Also uses an old hay dryer fan in his mow so he can sleep comfortably at night.

He can squeeze out a good extra 2 hours baling per day with acid which I'm a bit jealous of. The 0.25$ per bale he spends on acid and applicator repairs aren't so interesting.


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## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

I use acid most of the time except when it gets late in the season and the hay is almost dry standing. This year I've had to pour the acid on with the lack of good weather that I've had. Most of the 3000 good bales I've made this year has been fed out as fast as i made it, which is a good thing because i don't think some of it would have kept very well in storage. I probably baled some in the mid to upper 20's this year. The baler was loosened all the way and the bales where still heavy.


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Always on manual and putting acid on on the outside 2 windrows but after that I let technology take over . Ive not had many people care if its got acid or not , they just want unmoldy green hay and not gonna care about the expense of it either . So if your pricing the hay to cover the cost it is a nice insurance policy .


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I get big squares baled with acid. I have good luck EXCEPT where the bales are laying on the wood barn floor I get nasty mold. I assume the water cant get away from the bale so it molds, where as the bales higher in the stack are fine...


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

I can't imagine trying to make dry hay without buffered proprionic acid. I have the applicator set to come on at 17% and try not to go much above 25%. Highest application rate would cost about $2/bale on a 500lb 2x3. Peanuts compared to the alternatives of heating hay or rained on hay. Also have to say that we haven't spent a dollar on the Harvest Tec system yet either. It must be close to 10 years old by now.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

My friend put acid on some straw, 2 years running now. His buyer told me the same thing. It was going directly into a van and he didn't want it to heat.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Ok it's time to come out and get this off my chest I'm a propionic addict!! Everytime I bale alfalfa the pump is running. It's just so easy to flip that switch and know my hay isn't gonna mold or heat. If they took my acid away I'd have to go to some type of rehab for sure.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Yepp, me too! I've gotten into where I always put 4 lbs on, even big round bales. I do it under manual control and will turn on the second pump if needed.

Just makes me feel more comfortable about storing hay inside.

Ralph


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We used one big square and one round baler Last week we had about 50 acres of mixed Hay . The weather man moved the rain up one day and we decided to bail it at 25 to 27 percent moisture With full rate of acid. Probably got over a hundred fifty ton of hay  in a couple hours time ...no big deal to speak of but used a little over 5 drums of acid at $420 per drum and it never . RAINED


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I love my applicator and proprionic acid system. 
Where I live, it's almost impossible to bale without it.
I told my salesman they should just design balers with an optional fully integrated applicator system with the moisture readout, tank level and pump controls built right into the monitor. That would free up space in the cab and maybe increase reliability.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Don't you guys using acid have trouble with the bottom bale betting moldy? See my post above. Any acid treated hay that I have ends up with a moldy bottom bale where it sits on the wood barn floor. I only stack 3 high, so that mean 1 in 3 isn't good quality... That's not a good average...no one else has this problem???


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## Bishop (Apr 6, 2015)

I still do what I was taught as a kid. I always break bales of straw on the wooden floor of the mow and shake it out in a thin layer so that no hay ever touches wood. I think this helps a bit as I have never had bottom bale moldy. This is what my dad told me to do (rip) so I'm just gonna keep on doing it.

I think when you bale at higher moisture the acid works for a few months, but the bales do need to still dry down to <18% over six months time or you do get some mold.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I think in my case the moisture travels down the stack and hits the wood floor and cant get away so it molds. Maybe a pallet would help air get in to dry out the water...


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

Bishop and everyone else putting product on everything, you are not alone. In our business, we talk to alot of producers each day and more and more producers are beginning to use this theory. Moisture testers have a lot of variance in the technology so they are not always "the word of God". By putting the minimum recommended amount of product on everything that would be considered dry enough, you are somewhat "insuring" should a wet clump end up in a bale.

When using product, don't forget about proper storage. Off the floor, stacked loose (both to allow air flow for curing - the moisture still has to go someplace). Also, alot of people with large squares forget to turn their bales like they did with small squares so they are not twine to twine. This will allow some of the moisture to go up the "chimney".

Preservative is just one of the tools in your toolbox towards making good hay...it's a good one though.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

From our mow experiences, it will mold where it lays on the pallet boards too unless you spread a layer of loose hay/chaff/straw on the pallet.

I was so excited the first year I cleaned out our mow, hadn't been done down to the floor in 60 years. Lost the entire bottom layer of hay. Learned to leave a layer of chaff in there just like the old man who taught me how to hay told me to do, he just never had mentioned the why.



PaMike said:


> I think in my case the moisture travels down the stack and hits the wood floor and cant get away so it molds. Maybe a pallet would help air get in to dry out the water...


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I know what the penalty for having to little acid - but what about applying to much, other than cost?

Are you harming the bale if you apply to much acid?

Example - it's getting ready to rain, you are flying around the hayfield, in the sun, the hay is 18%, in the shade, it's 23% - so you apply for 23% and you are in/out of these windrows as you bale.

If you apply 23% to 18% - do you harm the bale or otherwise make it non-desirable for sale?

Just curious.

Thanks!

Bill


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Leeave96 I have forgot and left my acid on while I was making my turn and the baler pickup held the acid then it dragged the hay as I started back baling through the acid pool lol. it just turned the hay brown in the first couple flakes. I'm sure livestock wouldn't eat those couple flakes because they smell so strong. So to answer yes but you would have to be putting a extremely large amount of acid on it.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We get acid in 485# drums 53.5 gallons . A tote is not cheaper with this supplier. Keep 2 or 3 drums and a transfer pump on service truck when bailing. For those bailing a distance from home do you haul the totes of acid to the field . What pumps are used to transfer to baler applicator tank


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

PaMike said:


> Don't you guys using acid have trouble with the bottom bale betting moldy? See my post above. Any acid treated hay that I have ends up with a moldy bottom bale where it sits on the wood barn floor. I only stack 3 high, so that mean 1 in 3 isn't good quality... That's not a good average...no one else has this problem???


I have had good success with the thin layer of loose hay as mentioned above by Bishop and Slowzuki. Tried it as a solution to bottom bale moulding about 30 or more years ago.

In those days all small squares were loose carted. For a start I laid the bottom layer of bales on edge, cut side down which reduced but did not eliminate the problem. Cut side meant less contact between floor and hay

I built another shed just for hay, having a concrete floor with a plastic moisture barrier below it. After years of use moisture still appears on the concrete in less than a week if an object is placed on it. I put down a layer of plastic builder's film on top of the concrete, then spread dry hay on the plastic before stacking bundles. I break bales to get loose hay.

The concrete has been down for about 7 years but if hay is placed on top, moisture soon appears on the bottom of the bale. When picking up the plastic after removing hay there is water under it on the concrete and it literally drips off the plastic. This is in a very low humidity climate. Puzzles me where the water comes from, because the concrete has had plenty of time to cure and dry, but the water is there every year.

I bale at 17% max down to !0%, acid is unknown here. If no loose hay on the plastic, moisture and mould develop on the bottom of the packs. Thin layer of dry hay and no moisture or mould on the packs or on the loose hay. Puzzles me why the loose layer does not mould , outside of my logic but it works so I keep on doing it. The loose layer can be so thin that the plastic is pertly visible between stalks. The plastic film becomes damaged with loader traffic so I double up the layers for the following year. My long pockets and short arms mean I can't reach my wallet to buy all new each year. I keep re-using the plastic for subsequent years if not too damaged, and will put up to 3 layers to reduce direct hay exposure to concrete through damage gaps.

A neighbour that I do a little custom wok for uses plastic and some wooden pallets but that provides a refuge and ready highway access for rodents. Not a fan of that method.

Strongly recommend the loose hay layer. Lot cheaper than salt or other preservative and goes to garden mulch next year.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

We baled some orchardgrass weekend after Memorial day weekend. Hay was running 16-19% moisture and they wanted rain the next day. When it was all said and done we applied 12.5 lb./ton of prop. acid, which was a mistake as I was shooting for 6-8lb/ton. It had initially heated up so we flopped the bundles on there side and spread them all over the lot to cool off, which they did. 2 days later I piled them three-high in the barn(on a humid day). We sold it bit by bit over the next three weeks, and all was well. A ten day period went by without selling any, and went back into it, and it was warm and dusty, just like that. Only thing I can figure is the humid wet weather we had in that 10 day period was enough to cause the problem, but why? At 12.5 lb/ton, i'm rather disappointed in the outcome. I was a firm believer in it working for us before, but after that i'm pretty skeptical to say the least. Neighbor had the same problem using silo king in the same scenario.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

We have a shed that used to be a topsoil floor with one layer of bales laid down before stacking good hay. Didn't lose bales. It was cleaned out the same time as the main barn and had 18" of gravel added, it now stores round bales on pallets. About 1/3 of the round bales still black dusty pallet marks on them.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

I have a small transfer pump that I transfer the acid to 5 gallon gas jugs that have never had gas in them. Then take the jugs to the baler just to top the tank off, but I always fill the main tank up from my tote with the same transfer pump in the barn before I start baling for the day.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

6125 said:


> We baled some orchardgrass weekend after Memorial day weekend. Hay was running 16-19% moisture and they wanted rain the next day. When it was all said and done we applied 12.5 lb./ton of prop. acid, which was a mistake as I was shooting for 6-8lb/ton. It had initially heated up so we flopped the bundles on there side and spread them all over the lot to cool off, which they did. 2 days later I piled them three-high in the barn(on a humid day). We sold it bit by bit over the next three weeks, and all was well. A ten day period went by without selling any, and went back into it, and it was warm and dusty, just like that. Only thing I can figure is the humid wet weather we had in that 10 day period was enough to cause the problem, but why? At 12.5 lb/ton, i'm rather disappointed in the outcome. I was a firm believer in it working for us before, but after that i'm pretty skeptical to say the least. Neighbor had the same problem using silo king in the same scenario.


At 16-19% it should have kept, no problem. Did you probe it after the day of baleing? The acid only buys us time for the hay to dry out but I would have thought you bought several months not weeks at that rate.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

SVFHAY said:


> At 16-19% it should have kept, no problem. Did you probe it after the day of baleing? The acid only buys us time for the hay to dry out but I would have thought you bought several months not weeks at that rate.


Broke the probe and meant to get a compost type thermometer but didn't get anywhere that has them for sale. At 12.5 lb I wouldn't have thought of losing any either, but we had some serious bad humid muggy weather for too long of a stretch I guess.

The barn works out to stack bundles 3 high, so thinking about doing as you've stated before knocking middle bale out and putting them on the bottom of the stack, and piling 2 on top without bale knocked out, then sticking some kind of fan in the empty hole. Might even take a bit of a fabricated air duct to connect the fan to and extend inside the first bundle a bit. But I don't know if that's defeting the purpose of the acid or not? If you're driving air in, i'd think you'd be driving acid vapors out, which might not be good.

Nothing beats mother nature when she cooperates for sure.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Treated hay needs to dry out eventually.the acid just preserves it until it does.to have airflow threw the shed is good so the moisture can escape.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

6125 should of kept fine. Was you prop a brand name company that's registered? I wonder if the prop was bad?


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## haygrl59 (May 19, 2014)

Guys here used to put acid on their hay but now they go "au naturale". When we put the acid on, a lot of bales "caramelized" but no mold. Some buyers want that caramelized hay but I believe the nutritional value drops with it. I think it would be like candy for a horse. It definitely has a very sweet smell to it. We're finding with our growing customer base that they don't want anything put on the hay. Sure does make it a challenge to bale with fighting nature and only baling 15% and lower.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Haygrl59 how do you keep the leave on your alfalfa baling under 15% moisture? If I bale at that moisture I still have quite a few leaves in the bale, but when you open the bale up the leaves are on the ground and stems in your hand.


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## haygrl59 (May 19, 2014)

Nate926 said:


> Haygrl59 how do you keep the leave on your alfalfa baling under 15% moisture? If I bale at that moisture I still have quite a few leaves in the bale, but when you open the bale up the leaves are on the ground and stems in your hand.


I am seeing exactly this problem with some of our first cuttings of alfalfa. Actually, the boss is considering going back to acid but he is hesitant because of the caramelizing issue they have had in the past. I think it is all just a crap shoot whatever one does.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

Nate926 said:


> 6125 should of kept fine. Was you prop a brand name company that's registered? I wonder if the prop was bad?


It was from a local company that many in the area use. Pretty sure it's registered. Don't know if it was bad, but get your nose near a bale that was treated with it that day and be prepared to be immediately woken up.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> Treated hay needs to dry out eventually.the acid just preserves it until it does.to have airflow threw the shed is good so the moisture can escape.


That's what my original thought was too. That heat in the bundle has to come out, and no way to get it out other than force air into it somehow, or stack them apart loosely so that it can get out. I was also under the impression that the acid should keep it from heating up in the first place.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Caramelizing is a sign the hay has heated but not too much. If it hadn't had acid, it would have gone mouldy, if it had more acid it shouldn't have caramelized.



haygrl59 said:


> I am seeing exactly this problem with some of our first cuttings of alfalfa. Actually, the boss is considering going back to acid but he is hesitant because of the caramelizing issue they have had in the past. I think it is all just a crap shoot whatever one does.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The moisture and heat are two different items and drying of hay in a stack is pretty complex.

Drying the hay in the stack is what stops heating, if the hay is below the critical dryness to stop growth of bacterias/molds/yeasts etc it won't heat in the stack. The heat itself also damages the hay value but the growth of microbes consuming the feed value of the hay and the production of spores/fruiting/bodies/slime that ruins the hay for sale are the main concerns.

In a fresh pile of hay, the moisture levels are higher than equilibrium that is to say there is more water trying to leave the stack into the air that trying to leave the air to get into the stack. Water will try to leave the hay in every possible direction, it doesn't care much about gravity, it just is looking for a drier place to space itself out away from other water vapour. It will leave into drier hay (via the air inbetween) or into drier air in the stack. The heating of the hay makes a very mild chimney effect causing a very very slow air flow generally upwards. Piling hay on edge slightly improves air flow but its not a huge factor, loose piles are a big help, barn drier fans are a huge increase in flow rates. Hay bales at the surface can diffuse moisture into the air much quicker, bales in the middle obviously get less air flow.

Ok so into what is happening on the plant, on the surfaces of hay, molds/yeasts/bacterias etc are located because the plant immune system has kept it there at bay. As our plants are dying the immune system can't keep those growths from invading plant tissues that are at the right moisture for growth. So we want to dry the outer surfaces of the plants below the moisture level for growth to maintain hay quality but the stems don't dry as fast as those other parts. If we bale it the stems being wetter start releasing water into the relatively drier parts of the bale, the leaves and the air space. This can bring leaves that were too dry to support growth of the nasties into just the right range, and the continued release keeps it there for a good long time when stacked in a pile.

Air flow through the bale at this time can keep taking that stem moisture away with the air preventing rewetting of leaves and outer surfaces of stems. By the nature of the plant the interior is not seeded with molds/yeasts/bacteria so the interior stem moisture is not prone to growth of these things in the time frame we are concerned with(*** unless you use a macerator!)

All acid does is coat a temporary (it evaporates)coating on the plant to inhibit growth of nasties on the plant while things dry down. You need an even coating and enough to slow the growth down while the moisture leaves the hay. The acid does evaporate slowly, but that also helps it distribute a little bit in the bale. You want to make sure that bale is dried down before all the acid is gone.

(EDIT didn't notice how long winded I was in the little typing window)



6125 said:


> That's what my original thought was too. That heat in the bundle has to come out, and no way to get it out other than force air into it somehow, or stack them apart loosely so that it can get out. I was also under the impression that the acid should keep it from heating up in the first place.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

haygrl59 said:


> Guys here used to put acid on their hay but now they go "au naturale". When we put the acid on, a lot of bales "caramelized" but no mold. Some buyers want that caramelized hay but I believe the nutritional value drops with it. I think it would be like candy for a horse. It definitely has a very sweet smell to it. We're finding with our growing customer base that they don't want anything put on the hay. Sure does make it a challenge to bale with fighting nature and only baling 15% and lower.


Caramelising is the visible result of the breakdown in the plant tissues due to bacterial, yeast and other microbial (the flora) action. That action results in heat which is the tactile result of the breakdown of the plant material. If the hay heats to around 100* F then caramelisation occurs.

An extract from a Victorian Department of Environment and Primary Industries Note.

"Heating of hay beyond about 38° C causes "browning" reactions or caramelisation and is sometimes referred to as Maillard reactions. The end result is plant sugars "bind" with the amino acids, with the extent depending upon the degree of heating. Simply put a proportion of energy and protein combine and this becomes unavailable to stock.

At feeding out, farmers mistakenly believe their hay is very palatable due to the sweet odour (hence the term caramelisation) and due to the animals' vigour at consuming it. Stock will not perform as expected. This hay is like children eating lollies still wrapped in plastic."

To be absolutely blunt the hay is starting to compost.

If there is enough moisture to fuel continued breakdown then charring occurs and ultimately fire, provided of course sufficient preservative is not present to prevent the flora working.

The full text of the Victorian DEPI note can be found at:

www.depi.vic.gov.au/agriculture.../*what-happens-to-hay-when-it-heats*

The balance of the flora in the hay changes as the breakdown process develops. Initially it is flora that depend on oxygen (Aerobic) but then as the oxygen is used up the balance of the flora at work changes to anaerobic and use nitrogen as their gaseous fuel. That is why to get rapid and good quality compost nitrogen is added as either green waste, animal waste or fertiliser.

The flora feed off the nutrients in the hay, so caramelised hay has reduced nutritional value as compared with un-caramelised hay. However palatability to stock is improved at first because the sugar levels change and the animals go for the caramelised hay in preference to un-caramelised. The stock owners mistakenly consider that the animals would be attracted to feed that is better for them WRONG.

I have sweet tooth and I am attracted to ice-cream and would rather eat that than a proper diet delivering balanced nutrition. Horses have a sweet tooth too and will not analyse the nutrition value in fodder. Just like green coloured hay does not necessarily have any greater nutritional value for a horse, horse owners have a mistaken view it is better for the horse and will pay a premium. There are plenty of myths alive and well in horse owner culture that are impossible to displace.

The good news is that hose owners are happy to buy caramelised, nutritionally compromised hay meaning it is not discounted into cow hay. What is better, the horse eats more, does not do as well so you get to sell more hay than the horse would need if it was good quality. So your market gets bigger without adding a horse or an owner to your customer base.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

If you are addicted to propionic acid, here is a very good reason to not alter your addictive product of choice:

"Hay treated with preservatives may produce hydrogen cyanide gas at 240 degrees F, so extreme caution should be taken when fighting a hay fire if hay has been treated with such preservatives. Hay treated with preservatives containing ethoxyquin and BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene) produce hydrogen cyanide gas at around 240 degrees (115 degrees C). This gas is deadly. Additives containing primarily propionic acid to not produce hydrogen cyanide during a fire.

In the past, farmers sprinkled salt on wet hay as it was stacked to prevent spoilage, but salt does not prevent spontaneous combustion. Dry ice, liquid nitrogen or carbon dioxide gas pumped into the hay can prevent combustion by eliminating the oxygen from the hay mass."

Extracted from:

www.montana.edu/cpa/news/wwwpb-archives/ag/hay*fire*.htm


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Just to be clear too, any fire burning wood/cellulose material without adequate oxygen (hay fires are always like this) also always produce hydrogen cyanide (also carbon monoxide, tars, soot, etc) so don't go wandering into a hay fire thinking the smoke isn't poisonous!



Coondle said:


> If you are addicted to propionic acid, here is a very good reason to not alter your addictive product of choice:
> 
> "Hay treated with preservatives may produce hydrogen cyanide gas at 240 degrees F, so extreme caution should be taken when fighting a hay fire if hay has been treated with such preservatives. Hay treated with preservatives containing ethoxyquin and BHT (butylated hydroxytoluene) produce hydrogen cyanide gas at around 240 degrees (115 degrees C). This gas is deadly. Additives containing primarily propionic acid to not produce hydrogen cyanide during a fire.
> 
> ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> We get acid in 485# drums 53.5 gallons . A tote is not cheaper with this supplier. Keep 2 or 3 drums and a transfer pump on service truck when bailing. For those bailing a distance from home do you haul the totes of acid to the field . What pumps are used to transfer to baler applicator tank


I buy 2 50G drums per cutting from Messicks. I do haul drums to field. Bought a transfer pump from Messicks too. It has the alligator clips on a long lead for power. I just pop the hood and power up the transfer pump right in the field. My tank has a hose leading down to about chest level with a butterfly handle ball valve and the pump hooks right up to it with a coupler. Really works good.

I store bales on a dirt floor with 6 mil plastic with better than expected results. If I'm in a damp area, I put a pallet on top the plastic. 
Just got. Good source for the plastic pallets. Bought about 60 of them and have more coming.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> . Bought a transfer pump from Messicks too. It has the alligator clips on a long lead for power.


What pump did you get from Messicks?

Ralph


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## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

You know, I have a 55 gallon plastic barrel of acid in my shop that I've used maybe a third of in the last 5 years. Not a fan here and my customers don't want it.... No issue. I can make dry hay so long as I don't get anxious. I didn't this year, like 8 weeks late...

I don't like the stuff, it's slimy, it stinks and it burns my skin (when I get it on my hands).

I use a cheapo polyethelyene hand pump I got from U-Line to pump it. I think it was like 15 bucks.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rjmoses said:


> What pump did you get from Messicks?
> 
> Ralph


They offered 2 of them. One pumps more GPM than the other. I took the one that pumps the lower GPM since I only have a 25 gallon unit. I think it was $550. I hated spending the money, but now that I have it, I really like it. Having the inlet plumbing on the baler is great too. Don't have to climb up on baler. I'd go look for you, but I'm in Moab, Utah. 
I think it's a tut hill pump, but I can't remember (2 yrs ago). Works great, but wear safety glasses and watch it when you disconnect hose from tank. P acid can squirt around and can cause eye injury!!!


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