# Whats a good mix/rate?



## Stitch (Jul 21, 2016)

It seems like everytime i post something theres some confusion either from me or someone else, so a little insight on what im doing. I have a good friend thats in the pet food business, and hell pay me pretty good money for timothy and alfalfa, but its gotta be pure/clean. That said, ive got around 35 acres that i plan to square bale. What would be a good seed rate for a timothy/alfalfa/orchard grass mix? Or is there a better mix i should think about? Primary buyers will be horse people.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

Horse hay is really a loaded question, because it seems every horse owner is an expert on planting, growing and harvesting hay, and knows exactly what their horse wants, desires and needs. Most of the time they are at least ill-informed on all those aspects. That being said, they are the customer, and you have to give them what they want, which maybe not exactly what they need or would be best for their horses.

If I recall correctly, Albia is in south central IA.

We have a mix we call Haymaster Horse which would work extremely well for your area. It is formulated to be planted alone for straight grass hay, or added to an alfalafa seeding for mixed hay. The mix is as follows:

25% Orchardgrass--HLR Blend, 2-3 late maturing varieties

25% Tall Fescue--STF43 Blend, endophyte free, 2-3 soft leaf varieties

25% Meadow Brome--Cache, Paddock, Fleet, 1-2 varieties

15% Meadow Fescue--HDR Blend, 2-3 varieties

10% Timothy--, Tenho, Barfleo, Barpenta, 1-2 varieties

For pure grass hay--- 25-30 lbs/acre

For mixed legume grass hay-- 8-20 lbs/acre with 10-12 lbs/acre alfalfa

For long term, 5+ year and permanent stands, substituting BarOptima PLUS E34 Tall Fescue for the STF43 Tall Fescue Blend would be highly recommended. BarOptima is a Beneficial endophyte variety which will have greatly, improved persistence over endophyte free varieties.

Many horse owners may balk at any tall fescue, or even meadow fescue, in the mix. My experience, over many years, is that trying to educate them about the difference between endophyte infected, endophyte free, and beneficial endophyte varieties is not worth the trouble, most of them already have their mind made up. If that is the case we can modify the mix to fit the end users desires, even if that is not what they really need.

Cattle, sheep, and goat farmers/ranchers are much easier to deal with, and almost always have a much better grasp on reality. The same hay that a ranchers hard working horses would thrive on, many times would be rejected by acreage horse owners and weekend cowboys, but not necessarily their horses.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I agree about the horse people "balking" at the mention of the word fescue. And another thing that has occurred as of recent is that the horse crowd is reacting to sugars now....and Timothy is high in sugar comparatively speaking. So, I have seen a very distinct decline in the acceptance of Timothy in the horse crowd as of recent. We can thank Facebook for the mass exodus of horse Timothy buyers.

Of course, rabbits and guinea pigs and other "pets" still want the Timothy.

Back to your question on mixes, I think I would figure out the rough percentages of hay that you feel your pet and horse people will require. Then I would plant Timothy/Alfalfa in the amount that the pet people would buy and Alfalfa/Orchard grass in the amount that the horse industry would purchase.

Alfalfa/Orchard grass is my number one seller here with the horse crowd currently.....but that could change soon with what ever is trending on Facebook. 

Regards, Mike


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

The more I read about fescue, the more I think it has no redeeming value. Weight loss, toxicity, fescue foot, pregnancy problems in horses, but it is abundant around me and everyone buys it - it's cheap.

I've got a horse customer that has been feeding some round bales of mixed grass hay. It is possible this mixed grass hay is dominated by over-ripe fescue (and probably weeds too). The horse owner is having foot issues with the horse. They are looking at their situation, along with a vet and are feeding my straight timothy to rule out fescue as a potential cause. Not sure where this will end.

As to mixes - the ones I kind of like (but don't grow) are orchard grass/alfalfa or timothy/alfalfa mix. I don't care for other mixes like timothy/orchard grass because IMHO, they mature at different times - so you are potentially early cutting one or late cutting the other. Yield or quality suffer from my view point.

Back to the fescue - my horse customers seem to be trained that fescue (and clover) are absolutely not to be used. However, their dedication to this rule is tempered by the price of a bale of hay..... 

Good luck,

Bill


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

leeave96 said:


> I don't care for other mixes like timothy/orchard grass because IMHO, they mature at different times - so you are potentially early cutting one or late cutting the other. Yield or quality suffer from my view point.
> 
> Good luck,
> 
> Bill


Not necessarily so....it just depends upon the variety of OG and Tim that you select...as both can be had in a early, mid, or later maturing variety. You can "pair" them up very closely with the proper choices. Many folks do not want them maturing at the same exact time so that if they face difficulties(rain) during early harvest that the later maturing variety could be "just right" when they do harvest.

Regards, Mike


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

I'm sure the sugars become an issue when you have fat horses, overfed with hay higher in quality then needed, supplemented with grain and treats and the horse never leaves the pasture, maybe like some people we know  If you have a friend that is currently in this business then he would be the one you need to talk to about the hay he can sell. When you seed a field unless you go with a lower rate of alfalfa seed it will tend to dominate the field first and the grass comes in later. You should probably lower the Alfalfa rate below 10 lbs per acre with a medium or higher rate of grass seed.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Oh horse hay.

I have been selling an alfalfa timothy brome mix hay, its 50% alfalfa 50% grass. Sold about 200 round bales of this stuff mainly to horse people. Many of them coming back for more. I have also been personally feeding this hay to my neighbors horses. Everyone was fine with it till yesterday I get a text from someone saying the hay is too dusty to feed to horses and wants to return it.. WOW how to respond to that.

The low sugar hay for horses is usually an older horse with health issues. To get the real low sugar like they want the hay either has to be cut very mature or the plant have to be unhealthy. I think the lady that says the hay is too dusty is feeding it to horses that are older and have some lung problems. That is some of the problems with the horse people many of them have horses that should have gone to town years ago..

Now for a mix for horse hay. Anything form straight grass to straight alfalfa and anything in between. But it has to be put up with out rain(except when hay is expensive than rained on will do) and it has to be green in color(green painted straw will work)


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## Stitch (Jul 21, 2016)

danwi said:


> I'm sure the sugars become an issue when you have fat horses, overfed with hay higher in quality then needed, supplemented with grain and treats and the horse never leaves the pasture, maybe like some people we know  If you have a friend that is currently in this business then he would be the one you need to talk to about the hay he can sell. When you seed a field unless you go with a lower rate of alfalfa seed it will tend to dominate the field first and the grass comes in later. You should probably lower the Alfalfa rate below 10 lbs per acre with a medium or higher rate of grass seed.


My friend thats buying the pure stuff is marketing it to people with small animals (rabbits, guinea pigs, etc), he knows squat about horses!


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> I agree about the horse people "balking" at the mention of the word fescue. And another thing that has occurred as of recent is that the horse crowd is reacting to sugars now....and Timothy is high in sugar comparatively speaking. So, I have seen a very distinct decline in the acceptance of Timothy in the horse crowd as of recent. We can thank Facebook for the mass exodus of horse Timothy buyers.
> 
> Of course, rabbits and guinea pigs and other "pets" still want the Timothy.
> 
> ...


 Mike, that is interesting that you have seen a decline in the demand of Timothy for horse hay in your area. Here I have not seen that and Timothy is still my number one requested type of hay......unfortunately it looks like this will be my second year I will have no Timothy.

Something the OP may want to keep in mind is an alfalfa/Timothy mix will be nearly pure alfalfa after first cutting since Timothy produces minimal regrowth.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I also have seen an increase of people concerned about to high of sugar in the hay. I noticed it start last year. Which in turn has led to people asking for feed tests on grass hay. Prior to 2 years ago or so no one every asked for a feed test on grass hay. Well the alpaca people did, but for the most part they did their own tests.


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

leeave96 said:


> The more I read about fescue, the more I think it has no redeeming value. Weight loss, toxicity, fescue foot, pregnancy problems in horses, but it is abundant around me and everyone buys it - it's cheap.


Your comment is the exact issue I was addressing in my original post, total ignorance of the tall fescues species. Nothing wrong with being ignorant about a subject, unless there is a need to know.

The following is a quote from my original post: * My experience, over many years, is that trying to educate them about the difference between endophyte infected, endophyte free, and beneficial endophyte varieties is not worth the trouble, most of them already have their mind made up. *That comment definately applies in this case

Do some research on endophyte free and beneficial/novel/friendly endophyte varieties, the internet is full of very good information on the subject if you look.

Here is a link that explains the tall fescue endophyte issue and also a video to go with it

https://dxgh891opzso...Optima PLUS.pdf






Sometimes blunt and to the point is the only way to get through.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

prairie said:


> Your comment is the exact issue I was addressing in my original post, total ignorance of the tall fescues species. Nothing wrong with being ignorant about a subject, unless there is a need to know.
> 
> The following is a quote from my original post: * My experience, over many years, is that trying to educate them about the difference between endophyte infected, endophyte free, and beneficial endophyte varieties is not worth the trouble, most of them already have their mind made up. *That comment definately applies in this case
> 
> ...


I'm completely aware of enophyte infected and free fescue; I don't need anymore reading. I can talk until I'm blue in the face about endophyte free fescue to my horse customers and they still ain't buying, and I don't recommend it because....

Tell me this - how does one visually tell the difference between fescue infected or not? First cut Timothy is easy to identify; endophyte infected fescue - help me understand how to visually distinguish. When endophyte infected fescue invades a field, which happens, what is my visual indicator I can point to - to ascertain it's presence and what do I point to and show my skeptical horse customer trying to breed a very high dollar horse and be absolutely confident pregnancy problems won't occur costing $$$'s for them?

No thanks - I see no redeeming value for trying to grow and sell fescue of any kind to the horse crowd doing business with me.

YMMV


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