# Testing a thought.



## rjmoses

There's been a lot of chatter about racism lately and it got me to thinking. So here's my thought:

There always has been, and probably always will be, racism. It's unfortunately a part of human nature and has much to do with "tribalism". We foster it in unconscious way such as a favorite football team, my school vs your school, my town against your town. Essentially, it has a lot to do with tribal survival--my tribe survives at the expense of your tribe. Think USA vs USSR, democracy vs communism. Think back "Irish need not apply!" If you think you don't have racism in yourself, you're probably lying, or you're probably not self-aware enough.

What are your thoughts about the above idea? Just testing.....

Ralph


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## somedevildawg

No doubt about it, everyone is racist to a degree......


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## glasswrongsize

I think racism is a very real thing; but not as bad as though Jesse Jackson-types would like to be believed (bear in mind, they make their living by capitalizing on racism and DO NOT want it "fixed" as they would be out of a multi-million dollar per year job)

I think it has less to do with a person's color than their presence.

In broad generalities, I would trust a 60 year old black man in farm attire over an 18 year old white boy with his pants around his knees. I would trust ANY 60 year old man in working cloths before I trusted ANY man with his underduds showing.

I would trust a black woman in a nice dress before I trusted a white woman in hooker boots; I would trust any woman in a nice dress before I would trust any woman in hooker boots.

I would listen (and do) listen to Charlie Pride before listening to the new country music white folk.

I listen to David Webb (conservative black radio host) on the radio over a white liberal radio host.

I think people try to assimilate with people of similar interests and similar values. I think there is more prejudice than racism and the prejudices can be overcome easily; meaning that a person has a preconceived notion about someone due to color.

By that, I mean he might have seen the woman in in nice clothes only to find out it was the former first lady..I would have made my prejudice that she was a respectible woman based upon her attire and I would have been dead wrong. I might discount the 18 year old boy in low hanging pants to find out he was poor and wearing clothes that were given to him from salvation army and he wished for regular fitting clothes in which to go to work.

I think the world has become FAAAR more prejudiced in that a peson wears, how they speak, the slang they use, whether they drive a ford pinto with 22" chrome wheels or a Ford Ranger with stock tires and a little cow poop under the fender wells.

That is not to claim that certain colors don't tend to have certain stereo-types of clothing, slang, vehicle choices, etc..., but I don't care if it's a white girl or a black guy that drives by with their music blaring and thumping...I pre-judge that person not to have the same values and interests as I do.

I don't percieve the white punk with dinner plates in his ears to have the same values as I do...the black kid who is on the shooting line shooting trap with me? He's my kind of person and I don't give a hoot what color he is.

To me, a racist is someone who won't even give a person a chance due to their color. Prejudice is more of a broad caution against a color that (by and large) does not hold the same values and interest as the perciever.

That is what I have seen all over the world and in my little hamburg. I had a good friend while I was in uncle sam's yaght club that was black; his friends gave him heck for liking a *******...he didn't care. He shared their similar interests when he was with them and we also had similar interest that bonded us as friends. Went to Africa once and there were some black fellows on the boat that were anxious to see the "mother land"; after the first night of shore leave, they declined to leave the boat as they were not welcomed by Africans and were looked down-on for wearing "tribal"-type colors and hats and whatnot. The Africans had a preconceied disdain for black Americns who claimed to be African.

I've seen a lot of goofy crap and I seem to see more prejudice than racism and the prejudices are more attached to indications of lifestyle than color. If you look and act like a gang-banger; it don't matter your color. If you look and act like a rancher; it don't matter your color. If you act and look like a bull rider in the rodeo; it don't matter your color. If you have that shady look of a purse-snatcher, it don't matter your color. People judge base on perception as a mechanism to find people with similar interests/values as well to protect themselves from groups of people whose interests are contrary to their own.


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## ozarkian

I feel from the time we are born, we develop some form of racism and prejudice. Our life's experiences molds the strength of our racism and prejudice.

Spending a day in a tractor always brings deep thoughts to light.


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## rjmoses

glasswrongsize said:


> I think racism is a very real thing; but not as bad as though Jesse Jackson-types would like to be believed (bear in mind, they make their living by capitalizing on racism and DO NOT want it "fixed" as they would be out of a multi-million dollar per year job)
> 
> I think it has less to do with a person's color than their presence.
> 
> .......
> 
> I've seen a lot of goofy crap and I seem to see more prejudice than racism and the prejudices are more attached to indications of lifestyle than color. If you look and act like a gang-banger; it don't matter your color. If you look and act like a rancher; it don't matter your color. If you act and look like a bull rider in the rodeo; it don't matter your color. If you have that shady look of a purse-snatcher, it don't matter your color. People judge base on perception as a mechanism to find people with similar interests/values as well to protect themselves from groups of people whose interests are contrary to their own.


VERY well said!

Ralph


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## StxPecans

ozarkian said:


> Spending a day in a tractor always brings deep thoughts to light.


Not going to touch the racism thing. But no doubt I have some deep thoughts somtimes in the tractor. Especially at 3-4am art bell on the am radio. When they starttalking aliens and such. Then you see shadows inthe distance from the work lights. Being extreemly tried helps too.


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## somedevildawg

I can hear "kiss an angel good morning" in the tractor now 'glass.....


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## BWfarms

Feel free to accuse me of lying because I'm not racist. I'm actually telling you the truth because I have misanthropic tendancies... a dislike of humankind. I'm just as wary of a shifty person that has dirty clothes as I am with a business suit and too much cologne.

Race to me is a skin color not a nationality. Most Irishmen look like me.

Race and ethnicity share an ideology of common ancestry but differ in several ways. Race is primarily unitary. You can only have one race while claiming multiple ethnic affiliations. For example; you can identify ethnically as Irish and German but you have to essentially be either black or white. Race refers to the physical characteristics of someone. The color of someone's skin would be described as his or her race not ethnicity. Ethnicity refers to the cultural characteristics of someone.

I'm not objecting to the notion of racism existing. Prejudice is the proper word that should be used in most context. Example; a white police officer is likely going to question a white guy with a hoodie and hands in his pockets before stopping a white man walking by with a briefcase. This is prejudice, commonly called profiling, the criminal could actually be the businessman carrying a briefcase who just walked out of a bank he robbed.


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## hog987

I find it very interesting from here in Canada how much the media in the States makes race an issue. Media does a bit of that here. But you guys down south its 1000x worse. Its interesting how some issues there race is a huge deal. Yet similar issues here never give race a second thought. Just some observations from across the boarder.

I dont think of myself as racist. If i dont like someone its cause they are an a hole. Iam also the kind of guy if i dont like someone there are probably a few people planning that guys murder.


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## rjmoses

BWfarms said:


> I'm not objecting to the notion of racism existing. *Prejudice is the proper word that should be used in most context. *Example; a white police officer is likely going to question a white guy with a hoodie and hands in his pockets before stopping a white man walking by with a briefcase. This is prejudice, commonly called profiling, the criminal could actually be the businessman carrying a briefcase who just walked out of a bank he robbed.


I bolded part of your statement because I never thought of it that way. Interesting--Thank you.

Ralph


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## JD3430

Try embracing diversity of the mind over diversity of the skin color. I know Martin Luther King as controversial, but no truer words were spoken when he stated not to judge by skin color, but by content of character. Once we do this, we can then go forward as a society.

Our local high school has some real liberal snowflakes for teachers (some are also very respectable).
My 15 yr old daughter was listening to one of her teachers giving her daily dogma about "white guilt" in her "social studies" class (it's really a class where 75% of the daily discussion is about racism, slavery and white guilt). Anyway, she brought up the point to her young liberal woman teacher that people's skin color does not necessarily reflect their beliefs, morals or lifestyle.

You can have a room full of all one color of people with a very diverse range of thought.
You could also have a room diverse in skin color, but they all think the same way.

Liberals keep falling into the same trap: they can only judge what's a right or wrong about a society through their utopian view of diversity, which is purely diversity of skin color and sexuality preferences, rather than diversity of thought. 
The other thing worth mentioning is if you don't agree with them on any of their views, you are called a racist, nazi, etc.

We will NEVER get anywhere until we begin to judge everyone by content of character and drop the abhorrent name calling rhetoric.


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## Troy Farmer

I think if the race hustlers (those whose living depends on there being race relation problems) and the politicians whose lively hood depends on getting re-elected (buying votes with gov. handouts) would go away the situation would be a lot better than it is. But the two groups I mentioned lively hood depends on there being a problem.

With that being said, I find it interesting how people from parts of the country where they may have never even seen a black person, a latino, or native American in real life can be experts on race relations. I live in the deep south and have lived around, worked with, ate with, and worshiped with black people all my life. Most folks of all races here just want to work and make a better life for themselves. We don't need a problem created so someone who has a solution can come to our rescue.

The problem is behavior not race. I do discriminate against behavior.

We know too much of each other's business. All facts of a situation can't be gathered from a 30 second video on youtube.

The man or woman with the badge and the gun is IN CHARGE just do what they tell you.


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## rjmoses

I am very impressed by the thinking and depth of understanding that has been expressed in everyone's thoughts above.

Thank you.

Ralph


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## slowzuki

Hog I generally agree except, in rural areas of Canada in particular, huge amount of racism towards native people. Much like slavery in the US, the displacement of natives and poor treatment over the years remains a sore point.



hog987 said:


> I find it very interesting from here in Canada how much the media in the States makes race an issue. Media does a bit of that here. But you guys down south its 1000x worse. Its interesting how some issues there race is a huge deal. Yet similar issues here never give race a second thought. Just some observations from across the boarder.
> 
> I dont think of myself as racist. If i dont like someone its cause they are an a hole. Iam also the kind of guy if i dont like someone there are probably a few people planning that guys murder.


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## mlappin

You forgot to mention my brand of pickup vs you're brand of pickup. My brand of equipment vs you're brand of equipment. My preferred method of making hay vs your's.

It basically comes down to survival instinct as mentioned. My tribe vs your's or my family vs your's.

Dealing with the unfamiliar also comes into play. My small town is as white as Wonder Bread. Adding a new and unknown element into the environment makes people uneasy whether they admit it or not.

Those that claim they aren't the least bit racist are either fooling themselves or have never been in a situation where different races were involved.

I know of a few that claim to be entirely color blind, these people from my dealings with em also appears to have a very low survival instinct if any at all.

As in "let all the immigrants into the country that want to come, what could go wrong" &#8230;..Boston Bombing, World Trade Center, etc etc

These are also the folks that head down the creepy cellar stairs in horror movies or the ones that you can barely hear the screams as they get their faces ate off from being too curious.

From what I've also observed, while i'm sure it still exists, the military might be a pretty good mixing pot, long as the other guy does his job and keeps your *ss from being shot off who cares about their skin color.

Far as my other business goes, I really don't care what their skin color is if they want a outdoor wood boiler, no matter if their whiter than me or darker than me, when the check clears the bank and the funds are safely in my business account i"ll order your stuff, not till then. Trust but verify.


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## mlappin

Another thought, what's the proper term for a deep mistrust or fear of an opposing political party?

Seems like hatred of a opposing political party is a lot more prevalent these days than racism.

I've seen numerous friendships dissolve in real life and Facebook over political arguments.


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## mlappin

BWfarms said:


> I'm not objecting to the notion of racism existing. Prejudice is the proper word that should be used in most context. Example; a white police officer is likely going to question a white guy with a hoodie and hands in his pockets before stopping a white man walking by with a briefcase. This is prejudice, commonly called profiling, the criminal could actually be the businessman carrying a briefcase who just walked out of a bank he robbed.


You know, the Israeli's do exactly that, profile.

They don't use fancy scanners or x-ray machines. They train their security people at the airport to watch body language, I'm sure of course somebody who looks a little more middle eastern than the next passenger might gain a second, third or fourth look and then some. So far they have a much higher success rate than our most advanced security gizmo's.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> Liberals keep falling into the same trap: they can only judge what's a right or wrong about a society through their utopian view of diversity, which is purely diversity of skin color and sexuality preferences, rather than diversity of thought.
> The other thing worth mentioning is if you don't agree with them on any of their views, you are called a racist, nazi, etc.


I have a friend that is the white bread reincarnation of Mr. Spock, the Leonard Nimoy version, NOT the Zachary Quinto lame one. He never makes broad sweeping statements and all his points in any arguments are easily verifiable if you can use Google. Very unflappable, very logical and absolutely maddening in an argument. I feel sorry for his wife, she might control all the girl parts, but I'm positive that won't change his mind either. He's made several interesting points over the years.

1: Republicans might be the ones accused of being racists, but it's actually the left that believes minorities are inferior and must have welfare and food stamps to survive, they must have affirmative action to succeed, they must have quotas to make sure colleges aren't too white, etc. Of course if that buys a lot of votes in the process so much the better.

2: Conservatives are much better at accessing risk than more liberal minded people. He had links to several verified articles and the experiments that were used. Interesting read, some of it was extrapolation but they had people sit in a darkened room and watch basically a fast slide show, conservatives looked away or averted their eyes quicker when pictures of corpses in various states of decay were shown than liberals who may not have looked away at all. In nature a corpse in any state of decay could also be plague or disease ridden.

3: The left are actually more likely to be the ones climbing the bell tower with a high powered rifle. I should have copied and book marked those articles.

4: The reason the right seem to always be in turmoil these days is they actually have members with a broader spectrum of opinions than the left. The left has moved a LOT further left over the last few decades and the right now includes those that might have been independent before or considered a right leaning democrat.

5: The left are actually more prone to violence in a disagreement, whether it be politics, race, sex, or whatever, the friendships I've seen ended were by the more left leaning person after a Facebook post or verbal tirade.

My friend made all the above points at one time or another complete with links to the relevant peer reviewed articles then made one grand synopsis of the above in a post stating why in his best reckoning the left are more prone to be racists as they tend to make decisions based on emotion rather than logic.

He had to escape California before the lynch mobs showed up and relocated in Virginia under the witness protection program, or it could have been a job transfer or promotion, I tend to like the lynch mob theory myself.


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## somedevildawg

mlappin said:


> Another thought, what's the proper term for a deep mistrust or fear of an opposing political party?
> Seems like hatred of a opposing political party is a lot more prevalent these days than racism.
> I've seen numerous friendships dissolve in real life and Facebook over political arguments.


I've seen the same thing......I think it's media driven as they seem to always seek out the far right and the far left. When I hear the far left speak it just about makes me puke....I'm sure the same is true for them when they hear a far right opin. There never seems to be much made of the middle.....just the extremists, and that perpetuates the animosity we all feel. That's what this last election was all about....the middle. Slowly but surely the mainstream media is being exposed for what it is.....


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## mlappin

I have a friend that messaged me awhile back stating I can't be both pro second amendment and pro life. I HAVE to choose one or the other as they can't coexist as guns kill people.

I replied so do knives, cars, motorcycles, food poisoning, clubs, golf clubs, lightning, etc etc etc. Besides I asked him if he believes that a fetus isn't a person then why can't I be both pro life and pro gun as guns only kill people.

Still friends, don't discuss either. Guy isn't a quitter though, got in a motorcycle accident years ago and basically lost his leg at the hip. Still rides a dirt bike, which is how we met almost thirty years ago pre accident, has an electric starter, stays away from street bikes.


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## mlappin

Here yah go, the media is playing a huge part in it.


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## mlappin

Hate to sidetrack this too much, but a lot of the racial tension is a direct result of the media.

I found this to be both disturbing and funny at the same time when I noticed the one news caster looks like Grandpa Munster.

Unfortunately I can't find it on Youtube.




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10160282450995424


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## Aaroncboo

All this reminds me of the Paul Harvey poem if I were the devil. Man was truly ahead of his time.


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## luke strawwalker

glasswrongsize said:


> I think racism is a very real thing; but not as bad as though Jesse Jackson-types would like to be believed (bear in mind, they make their living by capitalizing on racism and DO NOT want it "fixed" as they would be out of a multi-million dollar per year job)
> 
> I think it has less to do with a person's color than their presence.
> 
> In broad generalities, I would trust a 60 year old black man in farm attire over an 18 year old white boy with his pants around his knees. I would trust ANY 60 year old man in working cloths before I trusted ANY man with his underduds showing.
> 
> I would trust a black woman in a nice dress before I trusted a white woman in hooker boots; I would trust any woman in a nice dress before I would trust any woman in hooker boots.
> 
> I would listen (and do) listen to Charlie Pride before listening to the new country music white folk.
> 
> I listen to David Webb (conservative black radio host) on the radio over a white liberal radio host.
> 
> I think people try to assimilate with people of similar interests and similar values. I think there is more prejudice than racism and the prejudices can be overcome easily; meaning that a person has a preconceived notion about someone due to color.
> 
> By that, I mean he might have seen the woman in in nice clothes only to find out it was the former first lady..I would have made my prejudice that she was a respectible woman based upon her attire and I would have been dead wrong. I might discount the 18 year old boy in low hanging pants to find out he was poor and wearing clothes that were given to him from salvation army and he wished for regular fitting clothes in which to go to work.
> 
> I think the world has become FAAAR more prejudiced in that a peson wears, how they speak, the slang they use, whether they drive a ford pinto with 22" chrome wheels or a Ford Ranger with stock tires and a little cow poop under the fender wells.
> 
> That is not to claim that certain colors don't tend to have certain stereo-types of clothing, slang, vehicle choices, etc..., but I don't care if it's a white girl or a black guy that drives by with their music blaring and thumping...I pre-judge that person not to have the same values and interests as I do.
> 
> I don't percieve the white punk with dinner plates in his ears to have the same values as I do...the black kid who is on the shooting line shooting trap with me? He's my kind of person and I don't give a hoot what color he is.
> 
> To me, a racist is someone who won't even give a person a chance due to their color. Prejudice is more of a broad caution against a color that (by and large) does not hold the same values and interest as the perciever.
> 
> That is what I have seen all over the world and in my little hamburg. I had a good friend while I was in uncle sam's yaght club that was black; his friends gave him heck for liking a *******...he didn't care. He shared their similar interests when he was with them and we also had similar interest that bonded us as friends. Went to Africa once and there were some black fellows on the boat that were anxious to see the "mother land"; after the first night of shore leave, they declined to leave the boat as they were not welcomed by Africans and were looked down-on for wearing "tribal"-type colors and hats and whatnot. The Africans had a preconceied disdain for black Americns who claimed to be African.
> 
> I've seen a lot of goofy crap and I seem to see more prejudice than racism and the prejudices are more attached to indications of lifestyle than color. If you look and act like a gang-banger; it don't matter your color. If you look and act like a rancher; it don't matter your color. If you act and look like a bull rider in the rodeo; it don't matter your color. If you have that shady look of a purse-snatcher, it don't matter your color. People judge base on perception as a mechanism to find people with similar interests/values as well to protect themselves from groups of people whose interests are contrary to their own.


Couldn't agree with this more if I tried... ABSOLUTELY spot on!!!

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

Troy Farmer said:


> I think if the race hustlers (those whose living depends on there being race relation problems) and the politicians whose lively hood depends on getting re-elected (buying votes with gov. handouts) would go away the situation would be a lot better than it is. But the two groups I mentioned lively hood depends on there being a problem.
> 
> With that being said, I find it interesting how people from parts of the country where they may have never even seen a black person, a latino, or native American in real life can be experts on race relations. I live in the deep south and have lived around, worked with, ate with, and worshiped with black people all my life. Most folks of all races here just want to work and make a better life for themselves. We don't need a problem created so someone who has a solution can come to our rescue.
> 
> The problem is behavior not race. I do discriminate against behavior.
> 
> We know too much of each other's business. All facts of a situation can't be gathered from a 30 second video on youtube.
> 
> The man or woman with the badge and the gun is IN CHARGE just do what they tell you.


Yes EXACTLY!!!! Couldn't agree more...

I'll add in the stupid MASS-MEDIA and Hollyweird types here... they have a VESTED INTEREST in keeping the whole racial thing stirred up to the greatest extent possible... racism and the stir it causes equals RATINGS, which equals DOLLAR SIGNS to those idgits...

Like the race baiters and politicians that make their livelihood off of racial issues, they have NO interest in solving it or seeing it solved EVER... in fact they're making a GOOD LIVING off it....

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

mlappin said:


> I have a friend that is the white bread reincarnation of Mr. Spock, the Leonard Nimoy version, NOT the Zachary Quinto lame one. He never makes broad sweeping statements and all his points in any arguments are easily verifiable if you can use Google. Very unflappable, very logical and absolutely maddening in an argument. I feel sorry for his wife, she might control all the girl parts, but I'm positive that won't change his mind either. He's made several interesting points over the years.
> 
> 1: Republicans might be the ones accused of being racists, but it's actually the left that believes minorities are inferior and must have welfare and food stamps to survive, they must have affirmative action to succeed, they must have quotas to make sure colleges aren't too white, etc. Of course if that buys a lot of votes in the process so much the better.
> 
> 2: Conservatives are much better at accessing risk than more liberal minded people. He had links to several verified articles and the experiments that were used. Interesting read, some of it was extrapolation but they had people sit in a darkened room and watch basically a fast slide show, conservatives looked away or averted their eyes quicker when pictures of corpses in various states of decay were shown than liberals who may not have looked away at all. In nature a corpse in any state of decay could also be plague or disease ridden.
> 
> 3: The left are actually more likely to be the ones climbing the bell tower with a high powered rifle. I should have copied and book marked those articles.
> 
> 4: The reason the right seem to always be in turmoil these days is they actually have members with a broader spectrum of opinions than the left. The left has moved a LOT further left over the last few decades and the right now includes those that might have been independent before or considered a right leaning democrat.
> 
> 5: The left are actually more prone to violence in a disagreement, whether it be politics, race, sex, or whatever, the friendships I've seen ended were by the more left leaning person after a Facebook post or verbal tirade.
> 
> My friend made all the above points at one time or another complete with links to the relevant peer reviewed articles then made one grand synopsis of the above in a post stating why in his best reckoning the left are more prone to be racists as they tend to make decisions based on emotion rather than logic.
> 
> He had to escape California before the lynch mobs showed up and relocated in Virginia under the witness protection program, or it could have been a job transfer or promotion, I tend to like the lynch mob theory myself.


All true...

As Spock would say, "Fascinating!"

Live long and Prosper! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

mlappin said:


> Hate to sidetrack this too much, but a lot of the racial tension is a direct result of the media.
> 
> I found this to be both disturbing and funny at the same time when I noticed the one news caster looks like Grandpa Munster.
> 
> Unfortunately I can't find it on Youtube.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10160282450995424


That is EXACTLY why I don't even bother watching the TV news anymore, ESPECIALLY the national "news"... it's all canned spam, all spun for whatever libtard agenda they're pushing at that particular moment. I wouldn't believe them if they said the sky was blue til I saw it for myself.

Even the local news is about worthless... I've seen the utter hash they've made out of local stories that actually made the TV news in Houston and such... basically they cherry-pick who they talk to, what they say, and what they put on TV to make you think the EXACT OPPOSITE of what actually happened most of the time, or the reasons behind it...

You want to talk about FAKE NEWS-- the mass media has been perpetrating it for DECADES already...

You should have heard the stations out of San Antonio and their foaming at the mouth frenzied whining and crying over the latest border nonsense... I tuned in trying to get the weather forecast to see how much more rain we were supposed to get out of this little tropical system we got last week, and I got SO disgusted waiting on the weather I turned it off... they went on for 10 solid minutes crying and sobbing about all the poor little Mexican children that were being ripped from their parents arms and marched to concentration camps as their parents were thrown into the gas chambers... at least that's the way they made it SOUND... it was LITERALLY SICKENING listening to the amount of PANDERING CRAP they were putting out...

Meh... What do you call 10,000 reporters on the bottom of the ocean??? A GOOD START!!!

Later! OL J R


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## JD3430

mlappin said:


> Here yah go, the media is playing a huge part in it.


I think this is spot on.

In my opinion, todays news media has become nothing less than a propaganda wing of the democrat party. In fact, I think the news media IS the democrat party.

Since Trumps' been elected, and especially in the last few weeks, the news media rhetoric has become as divisive and hate speech filled as I've ever seen it in my life. I'm seeing members of Trumps cabinet being thrown out of restaurants, Trumps family threatened with physical harm, Trumps voting base called "nazis", Trumps policies called "racist" and "nazi". Trump being threatened and border patrol detention centers called "Auschwitz".

*The news media IS separating "us" from "them". *

*The news media IS dividing the people with careless rhetoric and intolerance.*

I don't like it. There's danger in the air. I believe someone or some group is about to get hurt. If it happens, I believe the news media is to blame.


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## ozarkian

mlappin wrote:

"4: The reason the right seem to always be in turmoil these days is they actually have members with a broader spectrum of opinions than the left. The left has moved a LOT further left over the last few decades and the right now includes those that might have been independent before or considered a right leaning democrat."

In my 20's I considered myself right leaning liberal democrat. In my 30's, 40's and 50's I have been a card carrying Independent. I have voted for candidates like they were potential employees. I have tried to hire the best candidate for the job.

Now in my late 50's, my Bullshit filter has become extremely clogged. I am so disappointed and disenchanted with both parties ideologies.

Sometimes extreme problems require extreme remedies to fix. Maybe that's why Donald Trump was elected.

mlappin, I would love to meet your friend, "Spock".


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## JD3430

I cant understand why its so hard for 50% of this country to understand and embrace:

1. Strong economy (or unemployment, impoverished people)

2. Border enforcement (or our systems being overwhelmed)

3. Obeying our laws (or crime & anarchy)

4. Respect on worlds stage (or our allies and enemies take advantage of us)

What is "bad" about any of those principals being enforced?


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## ozarkian

JD3430 said:


> I cant understand why its so hard for 50% of this country to understand and embrace:
> 
> 1. Strong economy (or unemployment, impoverished people)
> 
> 2. Border enforcement (or our systems being overwhelmed)
> 
> 3. Obeying our laws (or crime & anarchy)
> 
> 4. Respect on worlds stage (or our allies and enemies take advantage of us)
> 
> What is "bad" about any of those principals being enforced?


Agreed. It's just simple common sense.


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## somedevildawg

JD3430 said:


> I cant understand why its so hard for 50% of this country to understand and embrace:
> 1. Strong economy (or unemployment, impoverished people)
> 2. Border enforcement (or our systems being overwhelmed)
> 3. Obeying our laws (or crime & anarchy)
> 4. Respect on worlds stage (or our allies and enemies take advantage of us)
> 
> What is "bad" about any of those principals being enforced?


Ok, 
Number 1.....they don't give a damn, what difference does it make when you get a check?
Number 2.....here's one they should give a damn about because it's a numbers game, they're just too stupid to figure it out
Number 3.....they ain't never gonna respect our laws, after all, look who wrote them...
Number 4.....they could give a shit less, they live in their own little world and its flat


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## JD3430

somedevildawg said:


> Ok,
> Number 1.....they don't give a damn, what difference does it make when you get a check?
> Number 2.....here's one they should give a damn about because it's a numbers game, they're just too stupid to figure it out
> Number 3.....they ain't never gonna respect our laws, after all, look who wrote them...
> Number 4.....they could give a shit less, they live in their own little world and its flat


Well yeah duh, but you'd think people could be smarter than that.
I guess I have too much faith in our education system teaching people basic life skills and basic common sense


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## luke strawwalker

JD3430 said:


> Well yeah duh, but you'd think people could be smarter than that.
> I guess I have too much faith in our education system teaching people basic life skills and basic common sense


HA! I can tell you for a FACT that ain't true!!!!

Our "education" system is an INDOCTRINATION system, NOTHING MORE... it teaches only *WHAT* to think, not *HOW* to think...

Talk about "drinking the Kool-Aid..." The schools are full of it... And they aim to keep it that way because they have and maintain ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the education system, from top to bottom and side to side... If your kids get "an education" its IN SPITE OF the school, not BECAUSE of it...

First thing I told Keira years ago before she even started school, and I have reiterated it MANY times over the years is, "YOU CANNOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU'RE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL!"

My sister, when she was getting her band director's degree at Texas Tech, which is a smaller state university in a decidedly conservative rural part of the state (though in the smallish city of Lubbock, Texas), she had to take a "theory of education" class and pass it to graduate and get her degree... it was taught by an absolute libtard NUTCASE, card carrying Demoncrat ultra-leftist liberal that just was TOTALLY brainwashed hook, line, and sinker in every point of the liberal/Demoncrat agenda... and was TOTALLY determined that unless you could cite their liberal rhetoric back to her book, chapter, and verse verbatim and ACT LIKE YOU BELIEVED IT, you *WOULD NOT* be allowed to pass her class... My sister "held her nose" and managed to bluff her way through, but of course most just "fall in line" and fall for the lies and, like a tea bag steeped in water, end up "soaking it up"... That way the perpetuate the libtard control of the education system.

When I was in the police academy back in the mid-90's, we had a class on juvenile law and the juvenile justice system-- again taught by a complete card-carrying brainwashed libtard nutcase gal who obviously didn't know "come here" from "'sic 'em!"... You know the type, one of those poli-sci or psychology majors that ends up as a social worker... just ranting and raving and full of all this limp-wristed nonsense about how we, as a society, **MUST** coddle these juvenile CRIMINALS, because they're "misunderstood" or "disenfranchised" and all this other jingoistic liberal hype UTTER CRAP... IOW, "empowering" them to continue to be criminals... and what's bad is, it's THIS TYPE OF IDIOT who crafts the laws and influences how they're written, and how the system is set up, and then they run it in their own twisted, warped way, tying the hands of people (like cops) who *actually* know better from real-life experience, but whom they consider inferior because *THEY* know better, or think they do, from book learning and social debates and indoctrination...

That's why the system is broken... and I don't see it getting fixed without a complete push of the "reset" button, which means things will get REALLY REALLY bad for a long time before they get better...

Later! OL J R


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## JD3430

Yeah I know, I have too much faith in mankind.
I guess I need to "downgrade" my expectations


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> Well yeah duh, but you'd think people could be smarter than that.
> I guess I have too much faith in our education system teaching people basic life skills and basic common sense


Dude, I asked a friend that is a union tin knocker why they keep taking on so many pre apprentices when they have journeyman and full apprentices out of work.

His answer was out of ten, your lucky if seven last the first week.

Out of the ones that last the first week, of those seven, five may actually show up every single day.

Out of the five that show up every single day, you're lucky if three of them actually show up every day on time.

So out of the original 10, you have three that might actually be worth a fart in a wind storm someday, but none of them can read a tape measure.

He sent one of the three to get a measurement one day, kid comes back with "37 and 11 little marks"&#8230;&#8230;

Basic life skills should be taught at home by the parents, notice that is the plural form of parent.


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## somedevildawg

And that is the single biggest reason, the explosion of single parent families and all the dynamics that that involves........and that can be traced back to? A lack of moral guidance.....


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## Swv.farmer

Okay I agree 110 percent with everything said.
I know where the smart rational people are.
Why can't the rest of the free world get a grip on it.


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## luke strawwalker

I have to laugh, because my sister's kids, my nephews, well the younger one anyway (he's 3 weeks younger than Keira), his favorite saying is, "DON'T JUDGE ME!!!"

If he's doing something stupid or says something goofy or acting weird or whatever, and you say something to him about it or ask him, "what the heck are you doing??" or "what were you thinking??" he just looks at you like your daft and says, "DON'T JUDGE ME!!!"

I just look him square in the eye and say, "Ya know, EVERYBODY is judging EVERYBODY ELSE **ALL THE TIME**... whether they admit to it or not... People judge you on how you speak, how you write, if you can communicate articulately and present a cogent, logical thought. People judge you on if you can spell correctly and write decently, heck even on how you use punctuation in your sentences. If you sound like an idiot or write like an idiot or come across with goofy ideas LIKE AN IDIOT, **WHO** is going to take you SERIOUSLY??? And, more importantly, WHY SHOULD THEY?? WHY should they give YOUR goofy idea or stupid comment as much credence as someone else with a cogent, logical, well-thought-out and well-presented idea or thought or comment? Because, ya know what?? In the end, it's RESULTS that matter, not one person's goofy opinion or another's... it's about what happens when the rubber actually meets the road and where it ends up. If it's a good outcome, people remember (somewhat). IF it's a BAD outcome, they remember that too (a LOT longer usually!).

People judge you all the time by how you look, how you carry yourself, and how you speak. If you sound like some know-nothing hip-hop thug and you look like some gang-banger thug, or look like an escapee from a tattoo parlor marked up like a badly tagged railroad car, or have dinner plates in your ear or chicken bones through your nose or more perforations in your body than a spiral notebook, people judge you for that. They don't trust you, they don't take you seriously, and they don't have faith in your judgment-- after all if your goofy enough to DECIDE to look like that, well, you've already DISPLAYED your poor judgment for ALL THE WORLD TO SEE...

So realize son, people are judging you ALL THE TIME... and don't ever say, "don't judge me" and think it counts as a hill of beans to anybody, because they're judging you anyways, and RIGHTFULLY SO. Do the right thing and make good choices and good decisions and you don't have to WORRY how people are judging you..."

He just doesn't get it... just steeped in this "everybody should get a trophy" mindset of this modern generation... "Everybody's equal" and "everybody's ideas or opinions are EQUALLY meritorious or valid as anyone elses" kind of nonsense...

Yeah, LIKE H3LL!! I guess I'm just hopelessly old school-- "results count; everything else is just fluff..."

Later! OL J R


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## rjmoses

luke strawwalker said:


> ......
> 
> So realize son, people are judging you ALL THE TIME... and don't ever say, "don't judge me" and think it counts as a hill of beans to anybody, because they're judging you anyways, and RIGHTFULLY SO. Do the right thing and make good choices and good decisions and you don't have to WORRY how people are judging you..."
> 
> ........
> 
> Yeah, LIKE H3LL!! I guess I'm just hopelessly old school-- "results count; everything else is just fluff..."
> 
> Later! OL J R


I am totally impressed by the amount of wisdom (common sense?) showing up in this thread!

Maybe it's time to speak louder? How and where?

Ralph


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## JD3430

rjmoses said:


> I am totally impressed by the amount of wisdom (common sense?) showing up in this thread!
> 
> Maybe it's time to speak louder? How and where?
> 
> Ralph


-Talk you any young uns you may have around you about the value of strong borders, one language and retaining our Judeo Christian culture. 
-Vote
-Consider a local political position
-Listen to Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh when possible 

I really think it's time to consider having to take a test on basic knowledge to be allowed to vote.

Stupid people voting is dangerous to the well being of a nations people!


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## Swv.farmer

Common sense is something that is taught by parents.
And logical thinking.
And morals.
And the children of the 90s have been let down by their parents and the school system so it's only going to get worse.


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## JD3430

Critical thinking is very underrated


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## TJ Hendren

In my job I am constantly hammered with diversity and inclusion, to the point the other day I told one of the air heads that I used to not be racist but you are making me one. Forcing this down my throat is not the way to go about it. As I get older I've gotten where I put things straight and to the point, not long ago I said to one of these 20 somethings that your generation constantly has a cell form in their hands and with the whole world at your finger tips yet you are the stupidest generation that ever walked the planet. " Why what do you mean by that" I was asked, I said you can't think for yourself, always doing what you are told to do on facebook etc. life is not the fairytale that the libs want you to think it is. All this free stuff you want, whos going to pay for it==the rich I was told-- do you not think that the will move out of the country-- that shut em up


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## hog987

Talking about other people paying for free stuff i have a sister inlaw who is a real socialists. Iam 36 and she is older than iam. But she figures other people should pay for stuff she thinks she wants. Her husband is just as bad or worse.
Got to the point the two of them just about had my mother in law convinced to give them her house. Mother inlaw has two daughters. Sister inlaw thought that since wife and i have a farm with a house its not fair to her so she should be given a house. Mother inlaw just about went for it till she found out if she did she would be moved into basement and pay her own daughter rent on a house she gave her.
Mother inlaw is thinking of selling her house. Down sizing and moving into something smaller. The place is not even for sale yet. Sister inlaw have already moved out all of the good stuff out of the house. Of course they do it when wife and i are not around to stop them. Now they also have mother inlaw convinced that when he house sells they should get half the money right away. Mother inlaw said only if she gives my wife her part too. Sister inlaw got mad and barked out why do they need it. Iam trying to tell my mother inlaw if she does sell the money is hers. Dont give it away. We can get buy with out it. Besides you will need it to live off rest of your life. 
Funny thing is with some bad drought here last few years. Wife has been constructively dismissed from her job and with the province being in a rescission not being able to get another job as of yer. The sister and brother in law are making 5 times the income we have been. But we have mostly been wise with hiw we spend and them foolish. Thats why we have a farm and house and why they have made a consumer proposal for their debts. But they view it as we have stuff that they dont. Therefore they should be given the same type of stuff to make it fair.
My responce. You want it you work your a$$ of and earn it. You have had just as many chances to earn wealth as we have had. 
Goes back to some good advice from Dad. Its not how much you earn. Its what you do with it.


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## TJ Hendren

Here's another saying around here, "the money you don't have to spend is the easiest money you make."


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## rjmoses

Did you ever notice that the countries most notorious for violating people's civil rights, environmental problems and socialistic/communistic styles of government often have the word "democratic" in their name?

Like: Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Democratic Republic of Vietnam, German Democratic Republic (East Germany), and Democratic Republic of the Congo.

And, usually, they are anything but democratic.

Just thinking.....Democrats?

Ralph

"A coincidence? I think not!" Somebody I can't remember.


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## glasswrongsize

Getting a little off-topic, but I will offer that we are a democratic republic whereas most younguns are taught we are a "democracy".Our gummint was not set up that way, but it has BECOME a democracy.
A democracy is a 50%+1 system... or mob rule. A "Democracy" is two hoodlums and a female in an alley having a vote on who is going to have sex. A "Democracy" is two wolves and a sheep having a vote on what's for supper. A democracy COULD be everyone on your block, in your town, in your county, etc having a vote to take YOUR house to give to illegal immigrants. You are not protected by anything other than "mob rule" and you are out in the cold.

I guess we have fulfilled Ben Franklin's suspicions when asked what kind of gov't was contructed and he said "a Republic if you can keep it".

We didn't. Queens NY is in the process of./has just elected a full fledged socialist. This was founded on self reliance, hard work, and a level or morality; it's being ruined by a deadly combination of greed , stupidity, and immorality.

To tie it back in with the original thoughts of this thread...I tend not to be "racist" as I know good people of a few different races and like them. A "racist" will still hate/dislike the person o a different color...no matter if they have the exact same values as them...skin color is the ONLY thing that matter above all else. I will vote for a conservative person of ANY ethnicity before I would vote for a white liberal (I'm a honky if no one was aware)


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## mlappin

So I took part in a flag disposal ceremony at the Walkerton American Legion yesterday.

Got to talking to one of our guys (from the North Liberty AL post) and he said this was the first time the Walkerton and North Liberty American Legion posts did anything together in an official manner. First time as in ever.

Used to be decades ago Walkerton had its own high school and North Liberty had their own high school so a lot of people 5-10 years older or more than me always competed against the neighboring high school in baseball, basketball, football and so on. Decades after the two towns combined their school districts to form John Glenn School Corporation the animosity between the two towns somewhat still exists from the days of competing against one another. My generation was we all went to school together but for the most part Walkerton people hung with Walkerton people and North Liberty people did the same although we were all white as snow.

So&#8230;doesn't even require a different skin color to keep people seperated.


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## Hayjosh

I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here. I work hard. I own lots of guns. I like to farm like you guys do. I don’t think the borders should be a free for all. But I do have my reasons for why I think the way I do. It’s not so black and white as many here believe it to be. I am registered with no party but identify as left-libertarian.


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here. I work hard. I own lots of guns. I like to farm like you guys do. I don't think the borders should be a free for all. But I do have my reasons for why I think the way I do. It's not so black and white as many here believe it to be. I am registered with no party but identify as left-libertarian.


I think it should be black and white, though....
You becomes a citizen of this country LEGALLY and that's the only LEGAL option.
Otherwise, you are ILLEGAL.
I don't want any exceptions, loopholes, grandfathering, brother in lawing, or any other chicanery.
I'm tired of the nonsense. Democrats and RINOS got more nonsense than I'm in the mood for.


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## Hayjosh

JD3430 said:


> I think it should be black and white, though....
> You becomes a citizen of this country LEGALLY and that's the only LEGAL option.
> Otherwise, you are ILLEGAL.
> I don't want any exceptions, loopholes, grandfathering, brother in lawing, or any other chicanery.
> I'm tired of the nonsense. Democrats and RINOS got more nonsense than I'm in the mood for.


Thinking in black and white is a very hyper-partisan virtue, whether it be hyper-conservatism or hyper-liberalism. That's not reality; we don't live in a binary world. I'll give you an example why: I have 5 internationally adopted sisters; 3 from Haiti, 2 from India. While in the middle of the adoption process with one of my Haitian sisters, Haiti suffered their devastating earthquake while she was still there. She was granted a humanitarian visa and flew to the US in the belly of a C-130 military transport plane, while my parents were given just a few hours' notice that she was on her way. That's an example of an exception and why we do have them. If we were to have gone by strict immigration law, she wouldn't have been able to come over.


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## Vol

Hayjosh said:


> I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here.


Your very likely to grow even more tired here.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

Hayjosh said:


> Thinking in black and white is a very hyper-partisan virtue, whether it be hyper-conservatism or hyper-liberalism. That's not reality; we don't live in a binary world. I'll give you an example why: I have 5 internationally adopted sisters; 3 from Haiti, 2 from India. While in the middle of the adoption process with one of my Haitian sisters, Haiti suffered their devastating earthquake while she was still there. She was granted a humanitarian visa and flew to the US in the belly of a C-130 military transport plane, while my parents were given just a few hours' notice that she was on her way. That's an example of an exception and why we do have them. If we were to have gone by strict immigration law, she wouldn't have been able to come over.


But it's a LEGAL exception.
Those are fine and I'm happy to hear your sister is OK. Adopting a child from another nation is perfectly fine and legal in most circumstances. However, showing up at the border and climbing the wall and demanding to be a fed, clothed and housed or be a US citizen is not a legal exception. Our nation is 21 trillion in debt and taking on more wall climbers is unsustainable. 
It's not binary. Its either legal, or its illegal and legal may be defined in several ways. So "legal" doesn't have to be a binary choice.

BTW I'm sure you know If another country has a humanitarian disaster, we can send them all the help they need. There's no greater humanitarian crisis aid country in the world than the US.


----------



## rjmoses

Hayjosh said:


> I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here. I work hard. I own lots of guns. I like to farm like you guys do. I don't think the borders should be a free for all. But I do have my reasons for why I think the way I do. It's not so black and white as many here believe it to be. I am registered with no party but identify as left-libertarian.


Hayjosh:

First, could you be more specific about the "vapid anti-liberal talk"? I must be getting old because I have a lot a trouble sorting out liberal vs conservative, left vs right (I'm not even sure about my hands any more), etc. So, anything specific will help me understand.

Second, I whole-heartedly agree with your earlier statement: "Thinking in black and white is a very hyper-partisan virtue, whether it be hyper-conservatism or hyper-liberalism." Binary thinking only belongs in computers (and sometimes I'm not so sure about that either.) BTW: I reading your use of the word "virtue" to mean "a quality or trait" as opposed to "something good or beneficial". Is this correct?

Third, The Law should be a guideline, not an absolute. (I could say a lot more about this thought but HT doesn't have enough storage to hold all my thoughts.) Mercy, justice and common sense should be applied to temper any law.

Just thinking.....

Ralph


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## somedevildawg

I despise the liberal mind-set....
Here's a real world situation......kid get sick from peanuts on a plane, liberals say "no one can have peanuts"  
Kid gets sick from peanuts on a plane, conservatives say "parents please be prepared if your child has allergies"


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## glasswrongsize

In case my views clashed with anyone else's.

Due to modern technology, this can be remitted to the "Circular File" at the end of your desk and I will respond appropriately to my level of concern.My response may be delayed as I have scheduled a trip to my "safe space" for an undetermined amount of time and my obamaphone gets crappy signal there (I have a complaint in to the gummint to fix my problems, but alas... I'm not in a "protected" status.)

Mark

Feeling a little snarky today, but if the foo shits....


----------



## Hayjosh

somedevildawg said:


> I despise the liberal mind-set....
> Here's a real world situation......kid get sick from peanuts on a plane, liberals say "no one can have peanuts"
> Kid gets sick from peanuts on a plane, conservatives say "parents please be prepared if your child has allergies"


 I don't really see how that's any different than conservatives saying gays can't married because it's something they have a religious issue with. Except two men getting married is victimless, compared to the life-threatening reaction somebody else could have from exposure to peanuts. Not that I'd propose to ban peanuts but I'm pointing out the contrast and how one has potential for real harm while the other doesn't.


----------



## Aaroncboo

Isn't politics fun... Lol


----------



## Hayjosh

rjmoses said:


> Hayjosh:
> 
> First, could you be more specific about the "vapid anti-liberal talk"? I must be getting old because I have a lot a trouble sorting out liberal vs conservative, left vs right (I'm not even sure about my hands any more), etc. So, anything specific will help me understand.
> 
> Second, I whole-heartedly agree with your earlier statement: "Thinking in black and white is a very hyper-partisan virtue, whether it be hyper-conservatism or hyper-liberalism." Binary thinking only belongs in computers (and sometimes I'm not so sure about that either.) BTW: I reading your use of the word "virtue" to mean "a quality or trait" as opposed to "something good or beneficial". Is this correct?
> 
> Third, The Law should be a guideline, not an absolute. (I could say a lot more about this thought but HT doesn't have enough storage to hold all my thoughts.) Mercy, justice and common sense should be applied to temper any law.
> 
> Just thinking.....
> 
> Ralph


Well, you really aren't going to see any liberal talk here, and that's not really surprising given the demographic. So that kind of narrows it down for you. Bonus points for use of the word 'libtard,' as it leaves no ambiguity. I just want to come here to talk about hay.

By virtue I meant 'quality' or 'trait,' yes.

I am conflicted with your third point. I get what you're saying, but I think the law really should mean what the law says, it seems like it defeats the point if it's open to interpretation. If a law needs tempered or has 'wiggle' room, then those provisions need to be written in. We can't govern fairly if there is capacity for the law to be applied unfairly. I tend to lean more left than right on issues, but I'm also very pragmatic and my opinion is data-, fact-, or information-driven (that probably comes with being a scientist). For example with that pragmatism, I don't understand sanctuary cities or what the debate is. It seems pretty cut and dry to me that if there's a law of the land, it should be enforced and not ignored (with pride).


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## JD3430

Aaroncboo said:


> Isn't politics fun... Lol


I like it. I think the more we inform the ignorant, the better. 
I never assumed that our schools teaching our children that liberalism socialism is good is done by accident. 
I take it upon myself to teach them liberalism and socialism sucks and always ends up in a dictatorship and people taxed into oblivion or starved to death. (See Venezuela or the countless other examples)

We just went through 8 years of "leadership" from a devout liberal socialist government. 
How did the last 8 years go for our country? No growth, companies moving overseas, high unemployment, 11 trillion more in debt, corruption and explosive growth in dependency on government aid.....
The last 1&1/2 years have shown us (I knew much longer than that) that the news media, the schools, colleges and a lot of our government are all tied together in an effort to convince our young to hate America and capitalism is bad. One man is working diligently in exposing them as a bunch of liberal frauds who would have led us down a path of eventual destruction. 
Freedom and Capitalism is the best way to live your life. 
Nuff said.


----------



## Hayjosh

JD3430 said:


> I like it. I think the more we inform the ignorant, the better.
> I never assumed that our schools teaching our children that liberalism socialism is good is done by accident.
> I take it upon myself to teach them liberalism and socialism sucks and always ends up in a dictatorship and people taxed into oblivion or starved to death. (See Venezuela or the countless other examples)
> 
> We just went through 8 years of "leadership" from a devout liberal socialist government.
> How did the last 8 years go for our country? No growth, companies moving overseas, high unemployment, 11 trillion more in debt, corruption and explosive growth in dependency on government aid.....
> The last 1&1/2 years have shown us (I knew much longer than that) that the news media, the schools, colleges and a lot of our government are all tied together in an effort to convince our young to hate America and capitalism is bad. One man is working diligently in exposing them as a bunch of liberal frauds who would have led us down a path of eventual destruction.
> Freedom and Capitalism is the best way to live your life.
> Nuff said.


Ignorance is a two way street. I don't know how you can claim no growth and high unemployment during the Obama years when you look at where we started in 2008 and where we ended in 2016.


----------



## glasswrongsize

Josh, I will try to make it a little less vapid for you. I agree that the using of liberals (as an example) is vapid in this SPECIFIC topic as it was broad-brushed to make a point in connection with the original post about racism and prejudices. Liberalism (as it is today) is something that I am prejudiced against and I used it for an example. Prior to your "complaint", this topic was not about liberal vs conservatism but rather liberalism was used as an example of something against which the poster stood or believed. There are many other posts in this forum in which the liberal/conservative topic is far less vapid; you have joined in in the discussion on a few of those and offered an opinion...must not be all that vapid around here?

Josh you posted "I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here." and you also lamented "Well, you really aren't going to see any liberal talk here, and that's not really surprising given the demographic."

I don't know if you are just expressing you feelings, making a complaint designed to quiet the conservative-minded speech/anti-liberal talk, or if you are lamenting the fact that liberals are in the minority?

If you are just expressing you feelings, I would suggest you refer to the original topic's idea and realize that liberalism or THE liberal was used as an example to illustrate a prejudice that many hold; it was used to make a valid point.

If the above was a hopeful attempt to quiet some of the anti-liberal talk, that's not very libertarian (which you partially self-label yourself) to to stifle speech instead of refuting it.

If it was just a lamentation that the speech is more conservative than liberal, then I have nothing to offer you other than the "hurt feelings" report that I shouldn't-have-but-did post in a previous response.

You wrote " I just want to come here to talk about hay."

This is a social media site that has a overall theme of hay and related topics...it also has a chit-chat area as well as another area for all other topics that members can read if they are so inclined. *You are 60-posts-in on a topic about racism and prejudices, and taking the time to post you views!!!!*; that statement that you are JUST here to talk about hay doesn't don't hold water. It indicates a little bit of "sour grapes" to me.

You wrote " I don't think the borders should be a free for all. But I do have my reasons for why I think the way I do.It's not so black and white as many here believe it to be.", "If we were to have gone by strict immigration law, she wouldn't have been able to come over. "and "Thinking in black and white is a very hyper-partisan virtue, whether it be hyper-conservatism or hyper-liberalism."

I would offer that one's willingness to bend one's morals or beliefs at-will is not an attractive quality to me; I would dang sure rather associate with someone who is more morally stable and I know where I stand than I would be associated with someone whose mindset bends and twists to accommodate their current personal wishes or greed. An example of that would be...re-read what was quoted about and then read what I will quote next. They are conflicting statements from the same poster in the same topic; to me, the conflicting ideas illustrate a self-indulging and dynamic set of morals.

You wrote "I think the law really should mean what the law says, it seems like it defeats the point if it's open to interpretation. If a law needs tempered or has 'wiggle' room, then those provisions need to be written in. We can't govern fairly if there is capacity for the law to be applied unfairly."

Which is it?

You wrote "I don't really see how that's any different than conservatives saying gays can't married because it's something they have a religious issue with. Except two men getting married is victimless, compared to the life-threatening reaction somebody else could have from exposure to peanuts. Not that I'd propose to ban peanuts but I'm pointing out the contrast and how one has potential for real harm while the other doesn't."

And that topic has been beat to death and I have probably taken as many whacks at the dead horse as anyone (and iirc, you have too in other threads even though you JUST want to talk about hay), but humor me for a minute, please, if I have not offeded you to the point of silence: briefly, Pro or Con on the Supreme Court's decision to "uphold" gay marriage?

I think this specific thread that Ralph started is ANYTHING BUT vapid...if you (not "you", Josh, but the royal "you") don't know what "vapid" is, look it up, it may not mean what you think it does.

Mark

PS, I want credit for not being inflammatory; in response to "I work hard. I own lots of guns." I WAS considering writing "So does every communist government", but I showed great restraint and never gave it another thought.


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## BWfarms

Think of me as 'Government'. I'm going to force you to give me your money and spend it how I choose for the benefit of a stranger. A person of left leaning financial views will applaud this as charity. That same person applauds this and says we need to help more strangers. So I raise taxes and more money comes into my corrupt hands. Now left leaning is mad because all this money I am spending is not paying enough for SNAP, teachers, road repairs, etc. Guess what?!? So are the right leaning. Here's the problem, I will donate to whoever I see fit but I don't have much leftover because the government takes thirty percent.

The money is wasted on frivolous lawsuits. Here we've wasted millions of dollars in LEO overtime pay, court fees, and associated miscellaneous costs because the left opposes voter ID. They believe this hurts the disenfranchised. Guess what?!? The millions wasted could have paid for 'free' photo ID cards to the disenfranchised, money for teachers, and at least fill a pot hole or two. The cost itself could be covered by the personal coffers of the protesting organization. Seems very logical to disrupt the 'government' because you think it costs you nothing. No, it costs everybody, especially in tax dollars.

Another issue at hand is 'grants' and government agencies 'budgets'. There's a horrible use it or lose it mentality. A playset was put up in our rural park by the county. It was only a few years old. They tore it down and tossed it in the landfill. A new one was put in place. The park is barely used.

Marriage is a religious ceremony, I am not aware of a religious faith that practices homosexuality. Same sex couples want to be married and force the government to allow their 'marriage' to be recognized. Most churches do not recognize same sex marriages. The irony of the separation of Church and State. (They can have their recognized 'union' but don't use a religious pretext such as marriage)

Common sense immigration. Enough said, why are we still having this discussion? Come here through the front door, not the back door. Legal is legal and illegal is illegal. Nothing to skew here!

I am a centrist, I can form a decision without it being based on emotion. I also have strong feelings of liberty. I do not like big government... OH WAIT! I have views that are as old as this country's founding. Sometimes things that are old is a good thing... like pre emissions tractors.


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## JD3430

Look at GDP growth under Obama economy
Look at the record high number of people no longer in the job force
Look at the record $11 trillion more debt
Look at the number of people on food stamps

Also, remember I am just as critical of RINO Republicans
I was never a fan of RINO George Bush, either.

If you can't recognize what Trump has been able to accomplish in GDP growth, wealth, record LOW unemployment, record low employment for minorities and women in just 1 year along with lower taxes compared to Obama's economy or Bush, then there's no reaching you.
You can't blame Bush for Obama's failures and at the same time give Obama's credit for Trumps successes.
No, it doesn't work that way. Obama was a total failure and we got the full 8 years for him to completely establish that.


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## Aaroncboo

I think a major issue is that people don't realize that they don't have to be left or right and you can be both. I think the farther you go to one way or the other you find it harder to get back to the middle. It takes balance to make it work but the media and politicians want you to think it's one or the other. It's all FUBAR. I don't think anyone has been or will be happy with it. But as long as we are moving forward be it however slow its still in the right direction. Lol


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## ozarkian

My thoughts on illegal immigration:

1. If I was a legal immigrant, I would be upset with illegal immigrants. If I went through the process to do it legally, then everyone else should too.

2. Illegal immigration and legal immigration is like legally withdrawing your money from a bank versus robbing the bank.

3. My wife has personally sponsored a legal immigrant. It takes money and time to go through the process. It can be done. Just like anything in life, you either do it right or you do it wrong.

To all those people out there protesting for illegal immigration, If you really believe from the bottom of your heart in it, put your money where your mouth is. You need to sponsor an immigrant to help them be legal. If not, they are just another criminal from a foreign country.


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## Swv.farmer

If one is thin skinned they should stick to topics about things that don't get under there hide.


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## somedevildawg

Josh we welcome liberal view-points, we don't really understand them, but we welcome them.....I always try to look at the other side of the equation. it usually doesn't take me long to examine and come back to my senses however.....but I can't tolerate the far right any more than I can tolerate the far left. Both are borderline/confirmed nuts....


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## somedevildawg

Aaroncboo said:


> I think a major issue is that people don't realize that they don't have to be left or right and you can be both. I think the farther you go to one way or the other you find it harder to get back to the middle. It takes balance to make it work but the media and politicians want you to think it's one or the other. It's all FUBAR. I don't think anyone has been or will be happy with it. But as long as we are moving forward be it however slow its still in the right direction. Lol


I think you're right Aaron.....I tend to always lean conservative but there are stark differences between myself and most conservatives. Being conservative has nothing to do with ones religious beliefs.....


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## JD3430

somedevildawg said:


> Josh we welcome liberal view-points, we don't really understand them, but we welcome them.....I always try to look at the other side of the equation. it usually doesn't take me long to examine and come back to my senses however.....but I can't tolerate the far right any more than I can tolerate the far left. Both are borderline/confirmed nuts....


Just curious, not being inflammatory, but what is "far right"? Are we talking like sex only in the missionary position, must go to church and tithe 10%, no women can work or be in power? I'm not putting ANY words in your mouth, just wondering.
I consider myself moderately far right of center.
I believe in God as our Creator
I believe women and men and minorities should have equal opportunities, but we should not have quotas or lower standards for any group
I believe in the constitution the way it was written.
I believe in freedom of speech
I believe in the right to own & bear firearms with proper background checks and testing. 
I believe we should have a strong, "military grade" border, like Israel, to prevent foreign invasions like the one we have currently on our southern border.
I believe in LAW and ORDER
I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, all other unions (man/man, woman/woman and all the transgender nonsense) is at best a civil union, but not a marriage. 
I believe in one single language, English. If you're not willing to learn it, then you don't really want to assimilate (there could be exceptions for older immigrants near end of life, or mentally impaired). I think all this "press 2 for espanol" needs to be done away with, it only makes the problem worse and basically admits we're being over run south of the border by people who have no desire to assimilate, only to use America for their own selfish purposes.
I believe in the American Culture and her holidays and days of observation. Canadians have Boxing Day, we have Christmas, Muslims have Ramadan, etc., but in the USA, its Judeo Christian so it's Chanukah and Christmas. 
I believe in one main Stars and Stripes flag and the lesser known flags associated with our founding as a nation.
I believe in a small, powerful, efficient government with complete and utter transparency and a military second to none. I believe the government needs to stay out of our everyday lives to all possible extents. Their job is national defense, national transportation infrastructure, upholding and defending the constitution, creating a monetary system and a system of fair and equal justice under the law also a national park service. 
I believe life starts in the womb and abortion is something that a Judeo Christian nation should not allow to be legal.
Probably forgot a few, but that's most of it. 
I believe drugs and the punishments associated with them should be very harsh.

Does that make me far right of center? No seriously, I never really thought about where I'm positioned on the graph. Am I hard right?
Also would like to hear what you (and others) define as a "far right nut".


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## somedevildawg

JD3430 said:


> Just curious, not being inflammatory, but what is "far right"? Are we talking like sex only in the missionary position, must go to church and tithe 10%, no women can work or be in power? I'm not putting ANY words in your mouth, just wondering.
> I consider myself moderately far right of center.
> I believe in God as our Creator
> I believe women and men and minorities should have equal opportunities, but we should not have quotas or lower standards for any group
> I believe in the constitution the way it was written.
> I believe in freedom of speech
> I believe in the right to own & bear firearms with proper background checks and testing.
> I believe we should have a strong, "military grade" border, like Israel, to prevent foreign invasions like the one we have currently on our southern border.
> I believe in LAW and ORDER
> I believe marriage is between a man and a woman, all other unions (man/man, woman/woman and all the transgender nonsense) is at best a civil union, but not a marriage.
> I believe in one single language, English. If you're not willing to learn it, then you don't really want to assimilate (there could be exceptions for older immigrants near end of life, or mentally impaired). I think all this "press 2 for espanol" needs to be done away with, it only makes the problem worse and basically admits we're being over run south of the border by people who have no desire to assimilate, only to use America for their own selfish purposes.
> I believe in the American Culture and her holidays and days of observation. Canadians have Boxing Day, we have Christmas, Muslims have Ramadan, etc., but in the USA, its Judeo Christian so it's Chanukah and Christmas.
> I believe in one main Stars and Stripes flag and the lesser known flags associated with our founding as a nation.
> I believe in a small, powerful, efficient government with complete and utter transparency and a military second to none. I believe the government needs to stay out of our everyday lives to all possible extents. Their job is national defense, national transportation infrastructure, upholding and defending the constitution, creating a monetary system and a system of fair and equal justice under the law also a national park service.
> I believe life starts in the womb and abortion is something that a Judeo Christian nation should not allow to be legal.
> Probably forgot a few, but that's most of it.
> I believe drugs and the punishments associated with them should be very harsh.
> Does that make me far right of center? No seriously, I never really thought about where I'm positioned on the graph. Am I hard right?
> Also would like to hear what you (and others) define as a "far right nut".


A far right blows up abortion clinics.....usually quoting biblical verses as his justification.
A right of center doesn't think people can make decisions such as these for themselves and would rather the gov. Do it for them......sounds somewhat non-conservative to me 
A far right attacks and sometimes murders people for their sexual orientation.....usually quoting biblical justification. 
A far right person essentially believes in no government, unless it's perfectly aligned with his/her position.....


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## JD3430

somedevildawg said:


> A far right blows up abortion clinics.....usually quoting biblical verses as his justification.
> A right of center doesn't think people can make decisions such as these for themselves and would rather the gov. Do it for them......sounds somewhat non-conservative to me
> A far right attacks and sometimes murders people for their sexual orientation.....usually quoting biblical justification.
> A far right person essentially believes in no government, unless it's perfectly aligned with his/her position.....


OK, I would call that a lunatic PERIOD.

I think abortion clinics should be closed, at least the taxpayer funded ones, then close all the rest. Looks like a lot of people in this country agree with me or Trump wouldnt have been elected. Blowing them up while quoting scripture would only be permitted once all human life has been evacuated from the area.  haha j/k. Closing abortion clinics would be progress to me, but first you have to overturn roe v. Wade from 1972. More people need to see just whats involved in an abortion and the aftermath of guilt and suffering the one who receives the abortion goes through. many times, its another life ruined. Amazing abortion funded by the taxpayer and legalized by the gubmit was illegal when I was a child. Its so harsh and bloody. Seems so inhumane and ungodly considering the other options...Did any of you know more black children were aborted than born in NYC in 2012?

I would guess a far left lunatic would probably want everything taxed to pay for their enormous communist liberal utopian government. We'd pay virtually all our earned wages back to the government so they can handle everything for us from cradle to grave (health care, education, housing, transportation, etc.) Of course, with all that, they'd want to regulate what we say, what we eat, where we go, what we're told, what medicines we get, how much we weigh, etc. All outcomes in life are EQUAL. Little opportunity for success since everyone is taxed the same and needs to receive EQUAL outcomes as regulated by the government. Thats a left of center idea of government.

Of course, all weapons would have to be confiscated because the "police" would get there instantly and we cant have anyone armed without EVERYONE being armed. That would be unfair. Religion would be eliminated, because religion would give people hope that freedom is better than oppression and life is sacrosanct. It would show people that a higher power than their government exists. It also would teach people that life is sacrosanct and marriage is between a man and woman and we cant have that! No, the government is the highest power and It must be obeyed.

Isnt it strange that under a communist rule, religion has to be eliminated? WHY? What are those wonderful communist leaders trying to keep us from learning? Under our form of government, people are free to pursue whatever religion they want. That tells me a lot.

Kind of reminds me of what they tried with Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, Stalin in Russia, Kim Jung Il in North Korea, Hugo Chavez of Venezuela.....

Yeah those didnt turn out so good...

I do appreciate the far left communist Pol Pots' way of killing his citizens. He used machetes and clubs to save money. Very efficient! Kims way (starving folks to death to keep the missle program funded) seems like slow torture.

Does anyone know 100 million people have died in the last 100 years from starvation or imprisonment or revolt under communist rule alone? Thats far more than all the wars of the last 100 years. Yeah, far left communism (big onerous government, socialized medicine, education, no guns no religion) ROCKS!!! LOL

Neither is good, but I'm definitely more "right" than "left" of center. Thank the Lord we are moving more to the right for a while, because moving more to the left under Obama or if Hillary had won was and would have continued us further down the path of disaster.

Those who do not learn their history are doomed to repeat it!


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## hog987

One of my favourite quotes about government.
Anyone with any sort of intelligence who studies government becomes more libertarian. "WHICH MEANS" we want less government not more.


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## rjmoses

Fuel to the fire....Uhh.... I mean food for thought:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-wilhelm-millennials-support-socialism-bernie-sanders-0709-story.html

My favorite part; "Big governments, in other words, tend to do big-government things, and they might not always be good, and you might not always like it."

I like to think of it this way: If a person has been handed everything they want from birth, never had to work for it, never had to struggle, never had what they have earned through labor and hard times taken away from them, then it is real easy for them to say that everyone should be given the same things for free (socialism).

Ralph

"I've been rich and I've been poor. Poor is better--there's no taxes on poor and no one tries to take it away from you."


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## CowboyRam

rjmoses said:


> Fuel to the fire....Uhh.... I mean food for thought:
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-perspec-wilhelm-millennials-support-socialism-bernie-sanders-0709-story.html
> 
> My favorite part; "Big governments, in other words, tend to do big-government things, and they might not always be good, and you might not always like it."
> 
> I like to think of it this way: If a person has been handed everything they want from birth, never had to work for it, never had to struggle, never had what they have earned through labor and hard times taken away from them, then it is real easy for them to say that everyone should be given the same things for free (socialism).
> 
> Ralph
> 
> "I've been rich and I've been poor. Poor is better--there's no taxes on poor and no one tries to take it away from you."


I think part of the problem is that we have our schools and colleges telling our kids that they need to get a college education so that they don't have to work, so they now want everything handed to them. They think they are entitled so everything, therefore the only way that is going to happen is if we become a socialist country.


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## IHCman

Hayjosh said:


> Ignorance is a two way street. I don't know how you can claim no growth and high unemployment during the Obama years when you look at where we started in 2008 and where we ended in 2016.


IMO the only thing that changed the economy and the recession was cheap oil. Developments in fracking and OPEC trying to shut down the US oil boom led to cheap oil. None of Obama's policies helped at all.


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## Vol

rjmoses said:


> Ralph
> 
> "I've been rich and I've been poor. Poor is better--there's no taxes on poor and no one tries to take it away from you."


I have never felt poor at anytime in my life. There have been tough periods in my life where I have struggled, but The Lord has always been good to me and blessed me in many ways when I have allowed Him to do so.

Regards, Mike


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## Uphayman

Vol said:


> I have never felt poor at anytime in my life. There have been tough periods in my life where I have struggled, but The Lord has always been good to me and blessed me in many ways when I have allowed Him to do so.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Growing up my family might have been poor by today's standards.......as a kid I just didn't know it. Most other folks were in the same boat. Life was pretty simple, if you wanted something, you busted your tail to get it. Never really was impressed by other people's wealth, but more by a persons ability to be successful. As in grow a beautiful crop, keep a neat operation, be a pillar in the community.

"Wealth is the ability to experience life". Henry David Thoreau

I am fortunate.......I am a wealthy man.


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## luke strawwalker

Hayjosh said:


> I really get tired of the vapid anti-liberal talk around here. I work hard. I own lots of guns. I like to farm like you guys do. I don't think the borders should be a free for all. But I do have my reasons for why I think the way I do. It's not so black and white as many here believe it to be. I am registered with no party but identify as left-libertarian.


The liberals have turned things very much into an "us versus them" mentality, and their "my way or the highway" mentality... and there is absolutely NOTHING too immoral or amoral, no lie too big, nothing they won't do to get their way... They constantly talk about "rights" and "freedom" yet everything they say and do is aimed at *TAKING* from those who work, produce, save, scrimp, and struggle to make something, build something, to have something, to give it away to those *they* deem as "more worthy" or "more in need" or whatever... their constant drumbeat for "rights" only applies to those they feel are "more deserving" than others, and they savage ANYONE having a conflicting viewpoint or conflicting values...

The [email protected] stinking rotten lousy scumbag liberals have gone from PUSH to SHOVE, and the "long-silent majority" of decent hardworking THINKING people outside of their libtard enclaves are getting plenty sick and tired of it... And now that they're starting to PUSH BACK, the libtards don't like it...

Well, that's the way they've decided to play the game, so "all's fair in love and war"... They want to attack and ram their ideology down people's throats at every turn, but they can't STAND it when someone tells them to p!ss off...

Personally I wouldn't pee on a liberal if they were on fire. I'm just sick to DEATH of them and their BS...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

somedevildawg said:


> I despise the liberal mind-set....
> Here's a real world situation......kid get sick from peanuts on a plane, liberals say "no one can have peanuts"
> Kid gets sick from peanuts on a plane, conservatives say "parents please be prepared if your child has allergies"


Yeah, that's at the very heart of it...

To the liberal, there *IS* no right or wrong, nothing is "absolute"... OF COURSE their IS absolute right and wrong. But they CHOOSE not to believe it. Basically most true liberals (the libtards) don't believe there is actually ANY right or wrong at all... Oh, they pay "lip service" to right and wrong, but their interpretation of it is SO morally and intellectually bankrupt and illogical that it defies belief or any pretense of common sense...

Therefore, they can talk themselves into ANYTHING, justify ANYTHING so long as it fits the "mood of the moment" and "is popular" and fits into their sick, twisted worldview... That's why they UTTERLY HATE AND DESPISE God fearing, Bible believing religious people... because they're "of their father the Devil" and what we stand for is the exact opposite of what they stand for, and the fact that we believe in absolute right and wrong, and that the decisions for what is right and wrong is firmly established and that they DON'T get to redefine that according to whatever is popular at the moment is totally abhorrent to them.

Of course then they say, "well, doesn't your Jesus teach you to turn the other cheek?" Yes, he does, but ALSO remember, Jesus also grabbed a whip and beat the money-changers who filled the courtyard of the Temple and had turned his Father's house into a den of thieves... Jesus stood up to those doing wrong and confronted those with an "anything goes" attitude and instructed them in the wrongness of their ways...

I know I for one am sick and tired of all the libtard GARBAGE too... there is NOTHING in what they say but a bunch of intellectually dishonest HORSE CRAP and I for one am not going to pretend otherwise...

Folks can only be pushed SO FAR... then they start to PUSH BACK...

Later! OL J R


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## JD3430

luke strawwalker said:


> The liberals have turned things very much into an "us versus them" mentality, and their "my way or the highway" mentality... and there is absolutely NOTHING too immoral or amoral, no lie too big, nothing they won't do to get their way... They constantly talk about "rights" and "freedom" yet everything they say and do is aimed at *TAKING* from those who work, produce, save, scrimp, and struggle to make something, build something, to have something, to give it away to those *they* deem as "more worthy" or "more in need" or whatever... their constant drumbeat for "rights" only applies to those they feel are "more deserving" than others, and they savage ANYONE having a conflicting viewpoint or conflicting values...
> 
> The [email protected] stinking rotten lousy scumbag liberals have gone from PUSH to SHOVE, and the "long-silent majority" of decent hardworking THINKING people outside of their libtard enclaves are getting plenty sick and tired of it... And now that they're starting to PUSH BACK, the libtards don't like it...
> 
> Well, that's the way they've decided to play the game, so "all's fair in love and war"... They want to attack and ram their ideology down people's throats at every turn, but they can't STAND it when someone tells them to p!ss off...
> 
> Personally I wouldn't pee on a liberal if they were on fire. I'm just sick to DEATH of them and their BS...
> 
> Later! OL J R


You know you're starting to reveal the lies of the liberals when they start screaming the loudest. That's the "alarm" of the liberal. 
Ever notice when there's one of those congressional hearings where a big government liberal is being grilled about something by a republican and the democrats on the panel of congressmen start interrupting and screaming???

These people can't win a debate where capitalism and socialism are presented, then debated properly. They lose every time. Their math doesn't add up and the history of their failed socialist utopias are exposed as failures. But every time it is attempted, it turns into a shouting match that goes off topic.

It's sad that younger people are not taught the proper way to run a government, a business, a household or even their own personal lives responsibly. 
Too much time spent teaching them about white guilt, slavery, racism and the sins of the past. I'm not saying those things arent important, we need to learn from our mistakes, but the amount of time spent on past history and not fixing the present problems is a joke. 
I also notice that our schools while spending a lot of the school year teaching our kids about civil rights, slavery, White suppression and all our past sins, spend almost ZERO time teaching these same kids about the failures of socialism, communism, dictatorships, including the 100 million people who have died under communist rule in the last century. 
That's more people than in all the worlds wars in the last 100 years, yet both my kids tell me that very fact has never been mentioned to them in our schools.


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