# Mixing grass with alfalfa



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I have been told that mixing grass with the alfalfa will make the alfalfa easier to manage......easier to dry down and less problems with leaf shatter on the alfalfa so I'm going to give it a try. My current alfalfa customers DO NOT want a mix but I have never been afraid of trying a different type of hay and finding a market so I'm not too worried about marketability.

My question is what kind of grass should I mix with the alfalfa? It seems like orchard is the most popular choice but I'm having issues keeping a stand of orchard that I can't seem to resolve. If I can't keep a stand of orchard when taking 2-3 cuttings a year I don't see how it would stand up to being cut up to 5 times in an alfalfa mix.

Tall fescue would probably be the hardiest cool season grass to plant here but fescue is a dirty word to the horses hay buyers so that is a no go.....even if it is endophyte friendly.

With Timothy being pretty much a single cutting crop this far south that won't be a good option either.

That leaves me with brome......how would it preform in a mix with alfalfa? I have a pure stand of 'peak' smooth brome I planted this past spring and I have been pretty impressed with it so far. It appears to have done well here and has regrown very well. I have read though that brome does not tolerate frequent cutting so I'm not sure how it would last mixed with alfalfa.

Any other options I'm overlooking?

Hayden


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I have meadowbrome/alf mix on a couple fields it varies alot in percentage from 1st to later cuttings.First cutting is 40% grass and 2nd and later cuttings are under 10% so something to consider when you are selling the hay.I have a market for the 40% grass mix and the 10% so not a issue for me.

Cool and wet I'll have a bigger % grass then hot and dry where the grass will go dormant.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Plant fescue and don't tell anyone who doesn't ask?


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

My thought is given the frequency if cut, perhaps Bermuda (maybe Tifton 44) might work well with your alfalfa.

Here is a link to a Bermuda / alfalfa mix hay field.

https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/web/ag/news/livestock/article/2016/06/27/alfalfa-bermudagrass-mix-south

Based on it being such a high maintenance crop, I doubt we'd ever grow alfalfa. Based on what I've read, Bermuda is the opposite. Just the tolerance to a whole list of herbicides that would wipe out other grasses, it's ability to self heal, deep tap roots (similar to alfalfa) allow close cutting/higher yields - all of which make me want to try it here, but I fear our winters might kill it - a problem I don't think you'd have. Also, as your alfalfa peters-out, you'd be left with a pure stand of Bermuda.

Just some thoughts.

Good luck,
Bill


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> I have meadowbrome/alf mix on a couple fields it varies alot in percentage from 1st to later cuttings.First cutting is 40% grass and 2nd and later cuttings are under 10% so something to consider when you are selling the hay.I have a market for the 40% grass mix and the 10% so not a issue for me.
> 
> Cool and wet I'll have a bigger % grass then hot and dry where the grass will go dormant.


 That was going to be my next question......what percentage of grass do I want with the alfalfa. I want enough that I get the benefits of being easier to manage. Not sure 10% grass would give me much of a benefit. I realize in a dry year the grass would be considerable less but just figuring an average season. I was thinking maybe 50-50 on the first cutting and maybe 30% on the summer cuttings.....not sure if that would be doable?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Plant fescue and don't tell anyone who doesn't ask?


 That would not work as the fescue would be visible in the bale. Besides that I'm sure most of the customers would ask what type of grass anyway.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

If it's not headed you can tell them it's any grass they want to hear.

I did a orchard grass/alfalfa years ago and it was 80% alfalfa and 20% orchard. It's still going strong. It was my first try with a branch root.

I had a customer once that wanted hay with alfalfa in it. Showed him a field that he would be getting that had alfalfa in it. He say "I don't know what alfalfa looks like"???????????????????????? So I could sell him anything??????


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> That was going to be my next question......what percentage of grass do I want with the alfalfa. I want enough that I get the benefits of being easier to manage. Not sure 10% grass would give me much of a benefit. I realize in a dry year the grass would be considerable less but just figuring an average season. I was thinking maybe 50-50 on the first cutting and maybe 30% on the summer cuttings.....not sure if that would be doable?


I havn't been able to get mid summer cuttings much over 10% but the fall cutting will be a larger percentage when I use orchardgrass.Somtimes alot more grass.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

leeave96 said:


> My thought is given the frequency if cut, perhaps Bermuda (maybe Tifton 44) might work well with your alfalfa.
> Here is a link to a Bermuda / alfalfa mix hay field.
> https://www.dtnpf.com/agriculture/web/ag/news/livestock/article/2016/06/27/alfalfa-bermudagrass-mix-south
> Based on it being such a high maintenance crop, I doubt we'd ever grow alfalfa. Based on what I've read, Bermuda is the opposite. Just the tolerance to a whole list of herbicides that would wipe out other grasses, it's ability to self heal, deep tap roots (similar to alfalfa) allow close cutting/higher yields - all of which make me want to try it here, but I fear our winters might kill it - a problem I don't think you'd have. Also, as your alfalfa peters-out, you'd be left with a pure stand of Bermuda.
> ...


 I have thought about Bermuda would be the best grass for mixing with alfalfa here. Bemuda is ready to be cut on a 30 day schedule like alfalfa so it would match up well and is also pretty drought tolerant. The first cutting would be pure alfalfa before it got hot enough for the bermuda to start growing but the rest should be a pretty even mix.

The trouble is every thing I have read says that the Bermuda needs to be already established and the alfalfa seeded into it while its dormant. This makes sence since to sprig the Bermuda you would need a prepared seedbed. I have thought about using a seeded Bermuda but I'm afraid the alfalfa would choke it out since the Bermuda would need to be seeded in early summer when the alfalfa is aggressively growing. Bermuda seedlings are very small and not shade tolerant.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

You might check for your local university's agronomy handbook for info also?

The UofI handbook is online http://extension.cropsciences.illinois.edu/handbook/pdfs/chapter06.pdf

and lists different seeding recommendations for different grasses with alfalfa.

The above link is only for chapter 6 and the page(s) that will be of interest to you (although, it's the wrong state) will be pages 3 and 4 of 17 of the PDF. The pages of interest are numbered 63,64 IIRC.

Hope this helps a little.

The handbook (preferably from your state if available) is better than a sharp stick in the eye if you don't have anyone local that can give local info.

Mark

I didn't recall correctly...it's 67&68


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

IH 1586 said:


> If it's not headed you can tell them it's any grass they want to hear.
> 
> I did a orchard grass/alfalfa years ago and it was 80% alfalfa and 20% orchard. It's still going strong. It was my first try with a branch root.
> 
> I had a customer once that wanted hay with alfalfa in it. Showed him a field that he would be getting that had alfalfa in it. He say "I don't know what alfalfa looks like"???????????????????????? So I could sell him anything??????


 Even in an average to dry year the fescue would pretty much be guaranteed to be headed out by the time we get weather to make hay.

Most all of the customers I deal with are able to identify fescue easily. Even the later cuttings of fescue have a different look than orchard. Unless I want to sell to the folks looking for cheap horse hay that buy strictly based on price fescue is out of the option here.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Even in an average to dry year the fescue would pretty much be guaranteed to be headed out by the time we get weather to make hay.
> 
> Most all of the customers I deal with are able to identify fescue easily. Even the later cuttings of fescue have a different look than orchard. Unless I want to sell to the folks looking for cheap horse hay that buy strictly based on price fescue is out of the option here.


You would need a market for first cutting for sure. How did you do advertising (and hopefully selling) your recently rained on rounds of alfalfa? Did you find any cow buyers looking for and willing to pay for it? What about an alfalfa, fescue, orchard blend? If you could at least get some orchard to survive it might be enough to give the bales enough look of orchard. And it's not like I don't hear your argument against fescue but you're willing to try to create a market for mixed hay where you say there isn't one so I'm wondering why you can't try the same with a mix that contains some friendly/free fescue. At least you know it grows.

Or have you looked at a short term grass like festuolium?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> You would need a market for first cutting for sure. How did you do advertising (and hopefully selling) your recently rained on rounds of alfalfa? Did you find any cow buyers looking for and willing to pay for it? What about an alfalfa, fescue, orchard blend? If you could at least get some orchard to survive it might be enough to give the bales enough look of orchard. And it's not like I don't hear your argument against fescue but you're willing to try to create a market for mixed hay where you say there isn't one so I'm wondering why you can't try the same with a mix that contains some friendly/free fescue. At least you know it grows.
> Or have you looked at a short term grass like festuolium?


 No luck on selling the rounds so far.....best offer was $20.

It's not so much that I don't think there would be a market for an alfalfa/grass mix it's that my current group of alfalfa customers do not want a mix. So for me to continue selling to them I have to produce some pure alfalfa. I have never been afraid of experimenting with different types of hay and I'm pretty confident that I can advertise and have no problems selling an alfalfa/grass mix.

I have already tried in the past with a MaxQ fescue/orchard grass mix for a couple years and preached how the MaxQ was safe to feed and had no detrimental effects like K31 and it just didn't go over. I suppose in other regions where K31 fescue isn't so prevelent that buyers might be more open to trying an endophyte friendly fescue. Fescue won't produce much if any better than orchard during the summer.....the only difference is it won't die off.

I have not considered festulolium.....not sure if it would last here.

I was thinking about trying an alfalfa/orchard/brome mix unless someone suggested otherwise. I'm kind of hesitant on the orchard since I can't seem to get a stand to last but I thought if I added the brome that it might fill in if the orchard dies off. I just was unsure if the brome would survive the frequent cutting schedule of the alfalfa.


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## MattB (Feb 13, 2016)

What about a rye grass? I know you northerners don't grow alot of rye grass but it works well for us down here. We use an italian ryegrass which if a good season will last 2 years. We oversow each fall when the alfalfa starts to die out (5 years or so) and get another 2-4 years out of a stand.

Italian varieties will tend to hold longer in the season as well, as annual ryegrass will head out in late spring/early summer.

I use it with oats as well as it comes back well after the oats is cut for hay and gives 2nd and sometimes 3rd cut depending on rainfall.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

MattB said:


> What about a rye grass? I know you northerners don't grow alot of rye grass but it works well for us down here. We use an italian ryegrass which if a good season will last 2 years. We oversow each fall when the alfalfa starts to die out (5 years or so) and get another 2-4 years out of a stand.
> 
> Italian varieties will tend to hold longer in the season as well, as annual ryegrass will head out in late spring/early summer.
> 
> I use it with oats as well as it comes back well after the oats is cut for hay and gives 2nd and sometimes 3rd cut depending on rainfall.


Ryegrasss is harder to dry then alot of other grasses.It has a waxy leaf surface.Probably not a good option for him as he is having trouble getting hay dry anyway.


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

In this area, when our alfalfa fields start to thin, we no-till drought tolerant orchard grass into the alfalfa. It handles multiple cuttings and makes real nice horse and beef hay. some of our producers mix alfalfa and orchard grass for a new stand.


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

We use a perennial ryegrass for pasture and grazing, but, not for hay. As swmnhay pointed out the waxy leaf surface adds another day to drying. Alfalfa/ rye grass combination would be about as tough a dry down challenge as you could plant around here. No thank you.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

MattB said:


> What about a rye grass? I know you northerners don't grow alot of rye grass but it works well for us down here. We use an italian ryegrass which if a good season will last 2 years. We oversow each fall when the alfalfa starts to die out (5 years or so) and get another 2-4 years out of a stand.
> Italian varieties will tend to hold longer in the season as well, as annual ryegrass will head out in late spring/early summer.
> I use it with oats as well as it comes back well after the oats is cut for hay and gives 2nd and sometimes 3rd cut depending on rainfall.


 Here Italian/annual ryegrass is a winter annual like wheat and oats. Plant in the fall and after it heads out on first cut in the spring it is dead and won't regrow.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

ozarkian said:


> In this area, when our alfalfa fields start to thin, we no-till drought tolerant orchard grass into the alfalfa. It handles multiple cuttings and makes real nice horse and beef hay. some of our producers mix alfalfa and orchard grass for a new stand.


 What variety of drought tolerant orchard are you planting? I'm not so sure that drought is my cause of stand loss in orchard though. This year it has been very wet and I still had the same stand loss as in the past. That tells me it is something else. Wish I could figure it out as I have a very good market for orchard grass.


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

FarmerCline said:


> What variety of drought tolerant orchard are you planting? I'm not so sure that drought is my cause of stand loss in orchard though. This year it has been very wet and I still had the same stand loss as in the past. That tells me it is something else. Wish I could figure it out as I have a very good market for orchard grass.


I use "*Persist*", drought tolerant Orchard grass seed.


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

Hayden, Clemson Extension is having an alfalfa/bermudagrass workshop this evening outside of Clemson/Seneca.

http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=0ab29963c84412d01161f5844&id=f0e3896db6


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

ozarkian said:


> I use "*Persist*", drought tolerant Orchard grass seed.


 I have planted Persist in the past and still had the same stand loss problem.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

reede said:


> Hayden, Clemson Extension is having an alfalfa/bermudagrass workshop this evening outside of Clemson/Seneca.
> 
> http://us3.campaign-archive2.com/?u=0ab29963c84412d01161f5844&id=f0e3896db6


 That could be interesting to attend. Don't think I will be able to make it this evening on such short notice though. I see where they are having another this Thursday in Ridge Spring......Its a bit of a drive but I might try to make it to that one. Are you going to either one?


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

I am going to the one today


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

reede said:


> I am going to the one today


 Reed, if you would pose this question for me when your there.......would it be possible to sprig/seed Bermuda grass into an existing alfalfa stand?

I have been pondering this and came up with an idea last night but not sure it would work. I had heard of notill Bermuda spriggers but wasn't sure exactly how they worked. Looked it up and it appears that the Bermuda grass is planted into 20" rows and the soil between the rows is not disturbed. This gave me the thought that the Bermuda grass could possibly be sprigged without tearing up the existing alfalfa stand. My understanding is that Bermuda grass can be clipped frequently during the establishment year to help it spread.......this would stand to reason that it could tolerate the mowing and baling of the alfalfa the initial year and then the next year you would have an established mix. The only thing is I'm not sure if the alfalfa would shade out the bermuda sprigs.....I'm pretty certain that it would shade out seeded Bermuda seedlings but sprigs may be more aggressive. Even if that would work finding a notill Bermuda sprigger to rent could be a problem.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well I talked to Reede the other night after he went to the alfalfa/bermudagrass workshop. He asked my question about planting Bermuda grass into an existing alfalfa stand and they said that it would be very difficult for the Bermuda to establish with the competition and shading from the alfalfa......this is kind of what I was thinking. With that being the case it doesn't look like Bermuda will be an option for me to plant into this alfalfa.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I think I have decided I'm going to try planting a mix of orchard and smooth brome into my existing alfalfa. I want to add the smooth brome in case the orchard doesn't last I will still have the brome to fill in where the orchard was.

What seeding rate of the orchard/brome would everyone suggest I use? The alfalfa was planted 20lbs. an acre so it is a thick stand of alfalfa. I was thinking maybe 8lbs. of orchard and 4-5lbs of brome? Not sure if that would be too little or too much grass?


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Going to drill it when the alfalfa goes dormant for a couple weeks?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

hillside hay said:


> Going to drill it when the alfalfa goes dormant for a couple weeks?


 Plan is to take the last cutting in about a month and drill the grass in right after its baled. Alfalfa growth really slows down here during October so I think it should allow the grass to become established this fall.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> I think I have decided I'm going to try planting a mix of orchard and smooth brome into my existing alfalfa. I want to add the smooth brome in case the orchard doesn't last I will still have the brome to fill in where the orchard was.
> What seeding rate of the orchard/brome would everyone suggest I use? The alfalfa was planted 20lbs. an acre so it is a thick stand of alfalfa. I was thinking maybe 8lbs. of orchard and 4-5lbs of brome? Not sure if that would be too little or too much grass?


Orchardgrass seed is a lot smaller then the bromegrass.So your ratio will give you a lot more O grass.

Smooth Brome will spread by the roots and eventually take over.I'd go with Meadow Brome before smooth brome.Doesn't spread like smooth and yields more.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Orchardgrass seed is a lot smaller then the bromegrass.So your ratio will give you a lot more O grass.
> Smooth Brome will spread by the roots and eventually take over.I'd go with Meadow Brome before smooth brome.Doesn't spread like smooth and yields more.


 I was wanting to go heavier on the orchard as it seems to be the preferred grass to plant its alfalfa and from what I have read will have better regrowth on the later cuttings. The brome was going to be kind of an insurance policy in case the orchard has stand loss problems and becomes thin. That is why I was thinking about smooth brome so it could spread and fill in if the orchard doesnt last.

I'm defiantly open to other suggestions. What seeding rate and ratio of orchard to brome would you recommend?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> I was wanting to go heavier on the orchard as it seems to be the preferred grass to plant its alfalfa and from what I have read will have better regrowth on the later cuttings. The brome was going to be kind of an insurance policy in case the orchard has stand loss problems and becomes thin. That is why I was thinking about smooth brome so it could spread and fill in if the orchard doesnt last.
> 
> I'm defiantly open to other suggestions. What seeding rate and ratio of orchard to brome would you recommend?


Should work fine.

8 lbs of orchard will give you alot of grass in the mix.I've seeded from 1-5 lbs in mix with alfalfa 1 lb is just a touch and 5 lbs gives you a pretty grassy mix.4 lbs of Brome is just a touch being it is a larger seed.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Should work fine.
> 
> 8 lbs of orchard will give you alot of grass in the mix.I've seeded from 1-5 lbs in mix with alfalfa 1 lb is just a touch and 5 lbs gives you a pretty grassy mix.4 lbs of Brome is just a touch being it is a larger seed.


 Should I cut the orchard back to about 5 lbs mixed with 4-5 pounds brome? I don't want to get too much grass to overpower the alfalfa. At the same time I want to plant enough grass for it to take. The alfalfa was planted this past spring at 20 lbs so it is a pretty thick stand.

How much grass do you usually plant into alfalfa?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> Should I cut the orchard back to about 5 lbs mixed with 4-5 pounds brome? I don't want to get too much grass to overpower the alfalfa. At the same time I want to plant enough grass for it to take. The alfalfa was planted this past spring at 20 lbs so it is a pretty thick stand.
> 
> How much grass do you usually plant into alfalfa?


Well you just threw another curve ball.

When interseeding you are competing with the existing stand so not as much will take compared to when seeding at same time as alfalfa.I don't think 8 lbs would hurt a thing but 5 lbs would be plenty if you get a good catch.

I usually seed 5 lbs orchard to thicken up old stands then double seed in poor spots and put 10 lbs on there.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Well you just threw another curve ball.
> 
> When interseeding you are competing with the existing stand so not as much will take compared to when seeding at same time as alfalfa.I don't think 8 lbs would hurt a thing but 5 lbs would be plenty if you get a good catch.
> 
> I usually seed 5 lbs orchard to thicken up old stands then double seed in poor spots and put 10 lbs on there.


 I might should also mention I put out some feelers on selling the alfalfa/grass mix hay. Most of my pure alfalfa customers were not interested as I previously said. But I did get some favorable response from some other customers. Seems like the general opinion was that most would prefer a mix that is a heavier on the alfalfa than grass. That may influence what seeding rate I need to use? I still want enough grass that I get the benefits of the easier drying and less leaf loss issue since that is my main reason for planting the grass to start with. I was thinking maybe I still need first cut closer to 50-50 to get enough grass in the later cuttings to amount to something?


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