# Superconditioner for Grass Hay (Tifton 85/Jiggs)



## zephyrtear (Apr 3, 2013)

Hi All,

I have been a long time lurker here but this is my first post.

I produce grass hay (tifton 85 and jiggs) in Brazil and am looking for quicker ways to get stem moisture down. Where im from i can manage to bale normally during the third day sometimes the fourth. Mostly because of stem moisture, since leaves are very dry second day.

I spoke to Mel from Circle C about the superconditioner and he mentioned that it is able to crack open grass stems and even break the nodes on the stem. But this is for thicker stemmed grasses. I was wondering if someone here uses it or at least has tried it for fine grass or tifton grass hay. If so how did it do? Does it manage to crack the stem up and break the nodes? I am looking for ways to get stem moisture down enough to bale during the second day.

Thanks!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

What is your current process with what equipment?


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## zephyrtear (Apr 3, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> What is your current process with what equipment?


I mow with a Vermeer 840 with steel rollers and ted all of our hay. We rake with a rotary rake.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

zephyrtear said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I have been a long time lurker here but this is my first post.
> 
> ...


Welcome to haytalk zephyrtear!

Kinda strange to hear that T-85 is grown in Brazil, if only for the fact that it was produced about 2 miles down he road from my farm, but that's good to hear...T85 is tough to dry down in one day.....as a matter of fact I've never had it dry down in one day, I'm not sure it's possible here with fully mature grass. I'm not sure of your particular climate, we have fairly high humidity and 98-102 temps in July and August, we condition with flails for the most part here.

A couple of things that will increase dry down here.....finish last of cutting by 3 or more hours before sunset.....that's hard to do but essential for rapid dry down here

Ted right behind the discbine to spread the crop in the sun over as wide a swath as possible exposing as much as possible.....

If cutting for the horsey market, I like to cut at 25 days, I still have to bale on day 3 however.....thats better than day 4 

Good luck, let us know if you try them and how they work for ya'


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I run the Circle C's, absolutely love em, see the biggest help in alfalfa and especially in first cutting when the Orchard grass has larger stems. I have no experience with T85 or jigs.

Won't make hay without em now.

I can say from personal experience Mel from Circle C is nothing but a straight shooter.


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## zephyrtear (Apr 3, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> Welcome to haytalk zephyrtear!
> 
> Kinda strange to hear that T-85 is grown in Brazil, if only for the fact that it was produced about 2 miles down he road from my farm, but that's good to hear...


Thanks! T-85 is actually very popular in Brazil, as well as Coastal Cross and Jiggs. Normally we can get between 4 to 6 cuts a year yielding 8 to 10 tons per acre.



somedevildawg said:


> T85 is tough to dry down in one day.....as a matter of fact I've never had it dry down in one day, I'm not sure it's possible here with fully mature grass. I'm not sure of your particular climate, we have fairly high humidity and 98-102 temps in July and August, we condition with flails for the most part here.
> 
> A couple of things that will increase dry down here.....finish last of cutting by 3 or more hours before sunset.....that's hard to do but essential for rapid dry down here
> 
> Ted right behind the discbine to spread the crop in the sun over as wide a swath as possible exposing as much as possible.....


This year we had a severe drought during rainy season and it was the first time we baled the day after mowing, and the hay was under 10%! Of course i doubt that will ever happen again. What I want to get to is a point where I can bale the second day with preservative.

We always ted right after the discbine and try to ted a second time the same day so that we have no green/wet grass by the end of day 1. Day 2 we ted once the dew is off again to speed up drying. After the second tedding we Ted again if grass isnt drying fast enough and weather is closing in. We used to rake right before baling but started raking earlier to try to get some drying in the windrows, but here only the top of the windrow dries, the bottom manages to stay moist all day. Also i have noticed that we dont lose leaves raking with the rotary rake even if the hay is very dry so will probably go back to raking right before baling.



somedevildawg said:


> If cutting for the horsey market, I like to cut at 25 days, I still have to bale on day 3 however.....thats better than day 4


We sell our hay for horses but we cut with longer intervals. If we cut at 25 days we get really high protein levels, 18-20%, and the horse market here doesnt pay a premium that compensates the lower productivity we get for cutting at 25 days.

I know my steel rollers arent the ideal conditioners for grass, but I wanted to see if anyone has tried the full contact rollers with these grasses before deciding on purchasing one. Or if I should just switch to flails.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Funny, I'm thinking of sprigging some cross in a couple of weeks....horsey market likes it there? Not a lot of it here, Alicia, T85, T44, and coastal purty much dominate the market here, jiggs is popular a lot of places as well.

That's about what we do as well, TPA....400units+ of N per acre here, what's it there?

That's a lot of tedding but when the weather is close....it beats tedding constantly AFTER the rain for sure, nothing I hate more than tedding (burning fossil fuels) but with Tift 85 it's an absolute necessity. Curious, is the coastal cross better at dry down? There are times when we are only tedding Alicia (fine bladed hybrid) to time the baling window, could bale on day 3 with no tedding.

I feel the same way about our rotary, it picks the field clean and I never notice leaf loss...

The high protien and roughage is what our horsey peeps want with the T85, typically it tests out about 17-19%...

Wish I could be of help on them rollers but purty much flails here.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I don't have circle c rolls and probably can't identify tifton if I saw it but I will waste your time with this response anyway. I love my b&d rolls and am familiar with cool season grasses like timothy& orhard. These crush type rolls do awesome on first cut when there is a stem there. When you get into later cuttings with just leaf and no stem and no legume in it I can't see the benefit of them.I suspect a flail may be better in this case.

I too have moved to lots of tedding and raking just ahead of baler when drying conditions are tough as opposed to windrow curing only the final day.

Where are you located in Brazil?


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

May want to look at a macerator, they are the only way to really to cut major time here if already tedding behind mower conditioner. It replaces the first tedder pass.


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## zephyrtear (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks for the responses! Mlappin and SVFHAY what is your experience with full contact conditioning and dew? Ive read that heavy conditioning could slow down drying if there is a lot of dew. But Mel from Circle C said that although it absorbs more moisture at night, it releases it quicker as well during the day. So final effect is still quicker drying.

Im located in the state of Sao Paulo SVFHAY.

Slowzuki do you have a Macerator? I saw it online and thought it was very interesting.



somedevildawg said:


> Funny, I'm thinking of sprigging some cross in a couple of weeks....horsey market likes it there? Not a lot of it here, Alicia, T85, T44, and coastal purty much dominate the market here, jiggs is popular a lot of places as well.
> 
> That's about what we do as well, TPA....400units+ of N per acre here, what's it there?
> 
> ...


Horse market really likes coastal cross here. Majority of hay here is made for horses, and they are mostly T85, Coastal, or Jiggs.

We normally fertilize after every cut with 90+ units N per acre. We also use same rate of K after every cut.

I cant say for coastal dry down since we only have T85 and Jiggs, but i can say that Tifton is much better at keeping color. I feel that Jiggs leaves dry much faster than the stems and end up being a lot more bleached than tifton.

In june I will be going to the Hay Expo in Boone, Iowa and will also stop by in Texas to talk to the people at A&Ms Ag extension. If anyone knows of someone who owns a super conditioner or macerator/recon type conditioner and uses it for grass hay please let me know for i would love to stop by and visit them on the way!


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've not noticed any difference, if you do get a heavy dew it still seems to dry a lot faster than standard conditioned hay. In our area though because of the dew at night I like to mow one morning, ted the next while the dew is on then can usually rake that afternoon and get it baled yet the second day.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

An engineer from New Holland told me they didn't recommend their version of crushing rolls for use east of the Mississippi for the reason of overnight moisture take up. This was a few years back. I am not sure they offer them at all anymore. After several seasons of use I would disagree with him and agree with mlappin. If this phenomenon is measurable it is minimal compared to the increased rate.

It has to be really good weather or mature hay for 2nd day baling for me however. Most of the time it is early on day 3.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't have a macerator, but have looked at the 6610 macerator several times in person and what it produces as a "mat". Its basically a high pressure conditioner with a couple of rolls turning at different speeds that slit the stems.

I seems to make the stems dry very similar to the leaves, and yes pick up moisture like the leaves overnight. It dries very quickly, I don't think it would be ideal in dry climates, the drying might be too aggressive.

The big downside too is the narrow width of the machine but at least you can have the tedder attachment and replace your first tedder pass.


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## MFMan (Jul 2, 2013)

I'm located on the Puget Sound region of Western Wa. This state is known for its moisture. When I saw unseasonable weather forecasts of temps in mid 70's and low 80's and WIND of 5-7mph I called the crew in.

Having said that,... I mowed my first section this year at the world record early date of April 26th and baled that hay on May 1st.... Five day hay. I mow with a Kuhn FC250 mower conditioner w/flails, setting the mow at the highest possible stubble....about 4-5 inches. I tedder w/ Fransgard RV300 two spinner. I also use a Haytec 25 gallon automatic system with CropSaver on my JD348 baler.

The second section I harvested was cut on May 5th and baled on the 9th. Also Five day hay.

In order to accomplish this because of the high ground moisture content and nighttime dews I had to tedder twice each day on day 2, 3, and 4 moving the grass side to side onto the dry exposed strip of ground each pass. I hope the tedder helps to damage the grass each pass...I liked the phrase somebody else used on a post here.."beat up the grass". The last pass on day five is a rotary rake and baling begins at 1:30 in the afternoon...And the wind is my friend.

Yields on First cutting have been high... About 4 tons p/acre.

My third section of harvest lost a day when the weather flipped early. Four day hay.= Hot bales.

The reason I'm jumping into this post is that I'm attracted to the idea of the Macerator as a part of the drying system. I'd like to shorten the drying time. Even with all of the work of 5 day hay I still get a small portion of bales that heat in the stack. On the second day after stacking I put guys to work inspecting the stacks for warm bales and separate them. Mold is a rare phenomenon because of the Propionic acid but the customers get excited when they find warm bales. Better drying would help to cut down on that conversation.

I priced a Macerator at a nearby out of state dealer at about $24K. Ouch!. Any thoughts from anybody else on the efficacy and value of the machine?


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## haymaker712 (May 27, 2014)

MFMan I am like zephyrtear, long time reader first time poster... I figure its time to jump in

i run about about 1800 acres of hay in the Ft Atkinson Iowa area. I have used a recon300 to for about 5 years.

it is wider than a macerater and also flips windrows as it moves them to dry ground. I would say the swath flipping is about 85% effective but these rollers really split stems.

It depends on time of year etc but I consistently cut 1 or 2 days when compared to my lower quality hay that I don't always get to recondition.

Just google search ag shield or recon300 I picked up mine from an estate auction but they are in the same price range as a macerator but do more with one machine. I think they advertise on this site.

there it is my first post on a rainy morning. Back out to change oil.


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## MFMan (Jul 2, 2013)

haymaker712 said:


> MFMan I am like zephyrtear, long time reader first time poster... I figure its time to jump in
> 
> i run about about 1800 acres of hay in the Ft Atkinson Iowa area. I have used a recon300 to for about 5 years.
> 
> ...


Haymaker712, thanks for chiming in.

I was in contact with a Macerator salesperson this week after my post above after I watched the video on their website.

It's hard for me to tell about the benefit of the crush the machine might apply to my grass. The sales pitch is that the machine crushes stems of "Timothy". Fine, I have some of that grass in my mix, but my grass is very Lush and Leafy. My yields/windrows are way more substantial than the demonstration.

I want to know whether the machine also damages the leaf...alot? And will it damage a fine stemmed grass stem like Rye? Or a plant like Clover? Two thirds of my annual harvest are irrigated Second and Third cuttings which are very leafy.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

We use Agland macerator on grass hay - timothy, og, johnsongrass (yes, cut at the right stage we have horsey customers that request it). We're not into alfalfa . . . yet. Looked at different brands and chose Agland because it was only one anywhere close enough that freight didn't make it too costly.

The stems are crushed and we have high humidity drying conditions. Dew is not our friend. We haven't used any preservatives but can mow/macerate on day 1, ted after dew dries off on day 2, and bale on day 2 with reasonably dry ground and sunshine and have hay baled in excellent condition. Mowing with sickle bar/rubber roller mower conditioner. Would be comfortable macerating alfalfa to break the stems and if done right after mowing don't think it would be a problem to the leaves. (for alfalfa not being able to ted would change our 2 day baling) Our customers really like the softer stems, they aren't chopped but the little crinkles let the moisture escape and cure with a good texture.

We're working on a fixer upper JD2320 windrower and if it ever gets going thinking of switching out the rubber conditioner roller for the Circle C or B&D rollers and eliminate the macerating step.

Shelia


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Keep us posted on the fixer upper. I am hoping mine does not become one. I should be making the speedy (8-9mph) trip home on my 2320 this weekend if all goes well. Good thing its only a couple miles away.


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## MFMan (Jul 2, 2013)

Haymaker712, I misspoke in post number 16 above.

I meant to state that I'd been in touch with a Recon salesperson...and that was why I was responding directly to you.

I'm wondering if you could talk about maintenance issues that you have encountered over 5 years of use? For example, those formed plastic shields on the back....I suspect they may have material failure at the hinge point? How much time do you spend adjusting tolerances on the rollers? Do the rollers get damaged? Anything else you can think of?


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## MFMan (Jul 2, 2013)

RockyHill said:


> We use Agland macerator on grass hay - timothy, og, johnsongrass (yes, cut at the right stage we have horsey customers that request it). We're not into alfalfa . . . yet. Looked at different brands and chose Agland because it was only one anywhere close enough that freight didn't make it too costly.
> 
> The stems are crushed and we have high humidity drying conditions. Dew is not our friend. We haven't used any preservatives but can mow/macerate on day 1, ted after dew dries off on day 2, and bale on day 2 with reasonably dry ground and sunshine and have hay baled in excellent condition. Mowing with sickle bar/rubber roller mower conditioner. Would be comfortable macerating alfalfa to break the stems and if done right after mowing don't think it would be a problem to the leaves. (for alfalfa not being able to ted would change our 2 day baling) Our customers really like the softer stems, they aren't chopped but the little crinkles let the moisture escape and cure with a good texture.
> 
> ...


Shiela, thanks for chiming in on this too.

I'm really interested in the time of year and over all conditions when achieving those rapid turn around times from mow to bale? The reason I ask is that Up here, with my current technology, that can only be accomplished in late August on overripe First cutting grass.. where the grass has basically been dried on the vine in advance.

And regarding the Circle C or B&D rollers, do you expect that they will perform the same level as the tow behind machines, Macerator or Recon?


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

MFMan, I asked Jeff his thinking on your situation. He said he thought macerating would do good on alfalfa & clover. We see less change on fine bladed grass. Had a place with lots of crabgrass. Doesn't seem that blades of grass get 'crinkled' enough to see much difference. Just get squeezed as going through the rollers -- not damaged, just really can't see any benefit. Places where there is some clover, those stems do get the 'crinkle' and the leaves stay intact. Macerating helps our hay cut at right maturity.

There is a spreader option that we didn't get on ours that will throw the hay out over a wide area. The area it spreads to is wider than our "two 9' cut pull two swaths together with rake" pattern. We use the pattern that macerator drops the hay into a loose narrow swath that air kinda circulates thorough. The hay is somewhat 'fluffy' for fresh cut green hay. Don't have as much sun bleaching and lets air dry ground off a bit. Then the next morning after the dew dries off it's tedded out over the full width. With sunshine and not terribly high humidity can rake mid afternoon and bale. Sometimes a second tedding after lunch is needed. Last year it rained so much that it took extra day(s) and lots more tedding. One big thing for us is we can always get hay up cured and with better color than letting sun/air get it to baling stage. No experience with preservatives so can't advise how that would all work for you.

As for the CircleC & B&D rollers, what we've seen on here from people that have used them, will most likely go that route on the JD2320. Hope that combination will work and can eliminate the macerating step -- Jeff can do both jobs at once and I can surf the 'net . Had only been doing internet searches about whatever was our 'project of the day' and didn't have the exposure to what other people were actually doing with them or possibly would have more seriously considered replacing the mower/conditioner rollers when we went the macerator route.

Shelia


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## Stuckey1 (Jul 9, 2010)

The agway accelerator hay conditioner!


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