# Educate me on older drills.



## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Looking to find a seed drill, and I am looking for something older (read; cheaper). In the past I have used an old Deere drop spreader, ands three point broadcast spreader. Looking to seed mainly oats, and brome with an oat nurse crop. Going to be doing between 20-80 acres a year for the time being. What should I look for? Grass boxes? Hoe vs. disc? Type of closing wheels? I will be looking in the $1000-$3500 price range. Here is one I found near my in laws, would it work decently? Looks like a hoe drill with small seed and fertilizer boxes? https://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/grd/5405754788.html


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Got a Deere fertilizer spreader with those "Impel-R-Feed" wheels in it like that; I wouldn't think they'd meter grain worth a tinker's [email protected]

I'd be looking for a double disk drill, with feedcup meters, on about a 7.5 inch spacing if I were you... Something like an IH 5100 or a Deere 8300... end wheel drills.

Tons of them on tractor house in your rough price range... There's also some slightly older model (just before the 8300 Deere age drills) that are cheaper yet, if a little harder to come by.

A lot of the choice of ground engaging parts depends on your local conditions... Hoe drills have their place, but they can quickly clog up with residue or have a hard time penetrating depending on the soil types...

Single disk works good in a lot of conditions, but double disk usually works as well or better... Press wheels are a good plus in a lot of soil conditions, but in wet sticky soils might not work as well...

As to fertilizer, small seed box, style of feeds on the grain box (feedcups, double-run meters) is again dependent heavily on what you want to do... IMHO I'd rather spin out fertilizer than put it down with the drill, but that's just me... Fertilizer will eat a drill up faster than practically anything.

Later and good luck! OL J R


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

I had a case ih 5100 drill. Big box worked great but I couldn't get a grass seed stand to save my life. I currently run with a John Deere 8300. Love the drill and have a beautiful stand every time I use it.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I had a IH 510. It worked good. Now running a JD 450. I lucked out and picked it up at a auction for $2500. The older series are just as good.The JD grass seed box has bigger tubes than the IH. Makes for less plugging.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

What are the advantages of an end wheel style, other than transport ease? And if it has press wheels, is there any advantage to running a cultipacker behind the drill like we do with the drop spreader?


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

I went with endwheel and 10 foot width on both drills because I already had a 10 foot brillion packer. I personally would stay away from press wheels. My 5100 CIH HAD those and I think it contributed to the grass seed problems. I tried to run the seed tubes between the disc opener and the press wheels, behind the press wheels, and right with the disc opener. Either plugged steady or nothing grew. When I traded up to my John Deere 8300 I looked for one without press wheels on purpose. The Deere has a set of holders under the step behind the drill to hold the grass seed tubes evenly spaced. They never plug and the cropping always turns out nice. If you're not doing soybeans at all I would get a rig similar to mine.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

So the small seed tubes just drop it on the surface? Or do they drop in the furrow from the opener?


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

They drop right on the ground out behind the disc opener leaving it on top of the soil. The packer I pull behind the drill packs the seed into the ground leaving a firm smooth surface.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Are all drills with grass boxes like that? That doesn't sound much different from the old drop spreader with a cultipacker we used to do. I imagine the nurse oats will do much better drilled. Eventually I would love to have a brillion seeder for the grass


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

I like my setup because of the fact I almost always plant a forage peas and oats mixture for a nurse crop when I seed down. Most of the pure alfalfa guys around here direct seed and use a brillion seeder. They are pretty awesome for grass seed.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> Got a Deere fertilizer spreader with those "Impel-R-Feed" wheels in it like that; I wouldn't think they'd meter grain worth a tinker's [email protected]
> 
> Later and good luck! OL J R


Fertilizer boxes weren't designed to handle seed just fertilizer.

If I was looking for a grain drill I'd buy a fluted feed not double run. FF is less complicated to set seed rate with less moving parts than a DR. Also I think I'd prefer an end wheel drill over a press wheel drill.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

And what models would be fluted feed vs. double run? How do I tell the difference?


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I don't even run seed tubes. Just drop it on the ground then pack with cultimulcher. Did that with both drills. Want to put steps on front of drill someday then just run the seed tubes straight down between discs.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

sixtyninegmc said:


> Are all drills with grass boxes like that? That doesn't sound much different from the old drop spreader with a cultipacker we used to do. I imagine the nurse oats will do much better drilled. Eventually I would love to have a brillion seeder for the grass


Basically most of your small seed boxes will drop on the ground between openers, although some can be set up to drop through the openers as well...

Thing is, usually small seeded crops need a VERY shallow planting depth, (IIRC read one time that a seed shouldn't be planted more than 8X the seed's diameter deep, hence small seed=shallow depth) and usually the openers are going to run deeper than the depth a small seed should be planted at.

For very small seed that you'd typically run in the small seed box, the planting depth is usually 1/4 inch or less... you'd have a hard time getting the openers to maintain such a shallow depth while still even turning. Hence, drop tubes dropping them on the ground in front of the openers or between the openers...

The openers will throw enough dirt to cover the seed on the surface... in fact sometimes too much, so some drop the seed BEHIND the openers. All they really need is to be pressed into the soil anyway. A drill with press wheels will roostertail enough dirt off the wheels to lightly cover small seed dropped between the openers.

A Brillion is basically just a seed box on top of a cultipacker roller. They basically use two sets of rollers with an inverted "U" or "V" type profile... the first set of rollers firms up the soil and leaves the a "VVVVV" pattern in the soil. The seed box drops seed, most of which will roll down into the bottoms of the "V's" left by the front roller. The rear roller then is offset to "split" those "V" patterns from the front roller, pushing the soil over and covering the seed, and firming it up over the seed.

If you're shallow seeding small seed, it's probably not a bad idea to pull a cultipacker behind the drill anyway. Press wheels on a drill are really meant to ensure good seed-to-soil contact for the large seed dropped from the main box (like oats, wheat, etc) and press the soil down to an even depth; any effect on surface dropped small seed is incidental. A cultipacker will firm up the loose soil between the drill rows and press any surface-dropped small seed down into this firmed up soil, ensuring good seed/soil contact and helping get it off to a better start, without counting on rain to do the packing and seed/soil contact thing for you...

Why I bought a 16 foot Dunham-Lehr cultipacker up in Indiana last year for $600 bucks and brought it back to Texas this past fall from the BIL's... that and my old Deere drill (which was used for seeding rice on a big farm in a tandem hitch) was set up for packer wheels but someone ripped them off and threw them in a pile somewhere years ago... they didn't come with it even though the toolbar is back there for them...

Later and good luck! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tx Jim said:


> Fertilizer boxes weren't designed to handle seed just fertilizer.
> 
> If I was looking for a grain drill I'd buy a fluted feed not double run. FF is less complicated to set seed rate with less moving parts than a DR. Also I think I'd prefer an end wheel drill over a press wheel drill.


Yes, I know that... why I said they wouldn't meter seed worth a [email protected] (roll eyes). Our Deere dry fertilizer machine is basically one of those type boxes with the Impel-R-Feed "star wheels" in the bottom of it and four chisel openers to go right down the top of 40 inch cotton rows before planting time. I put out dry fertilizer for many years before I switched back to liquid for the convenience (16 bags every four rounds got old).

The Impel-R-Feed wheels are strictly designed to shove stuff sideways and flip it back, like the feed augers in a dry fertilizer planter box. The old Deere dry fertilizer machine we have has adjustable "gates" on the back cover where the fertilizer flips up behind the impellers and goes down the funnels and hoses to the openers, that change their height by a lever. The higher they are, the less fertilizer gets flipped over the top to drop down the funnels. The lower they're set, the more fertilizer the impellers flip out into the funnels and down the hoses...

I agree that the fluted feeds are better for most uses... Double runs are gentler on the seed, but harder to set up accurately, and if a fluted feed is set right (gate position, etc) the amount of damage (crushing or cracking) of seed is negligible anyway...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

sixtyninegmc said:


> And what models would be fluted feed vs. double run? How do I tell the difference?


Look at the meters mounted on the bottom of the grain box... if they're a single-wide mechanism with a star-shaped wheel that moves in and out to vary the seeding rate, it's a fluted feed cup meter.

If it's a larger double-sided wheel (usually) with little teeth on the INSIDE of the wheel (that grabs the seed and pulls it up to the funnels) it's a double-run seed meter.

Fluted-feed meters will have a "block" that slides in and out of the meter, pressed up against the fluted wheel. The block does not turn-- it simply keeps seed from "going around" the side of the flute wheel. It will also have a "gate", a curved piece under the wheel that is usually adjustable for height, or the gap between the flute tips and the gate clearance.

A fluted feed meter, because of the tips of the flutes coming down and "pinching" some seed between the tips and the gate, can mash or crush some seed, crack large seed (like soybeans) and stuff, especially if improperly adjusted (adjustments are usually given in the drill box cover for seeding rates, and adjustments to the gates are usually on the chart or in the owner's manual.)

Double run meters have a 'pool' of seed that comes down from the box, and "scoop" up seed from this pool with the "paddles" (not really the right word, but close enough) inside the wheels and carry it upwards til it drops out and down the funnels to the openers. Because there's no "pinch point" like in a fluted meter, they're easier on seed, BUT, harder to set up and keep accurate...

Here's some pics that should help... Later! OL J R


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

You mentioned hoe drills early on, I would avoid them for grass seed. They are really designed to dig deeper to find moisture. They leave a trench and a little too hard of a rain will see your seed buried deep. Its bad for cereal grains, disaster for grass seed that needs to be shallow.

Like others mentioned, a double disc opener on as narrow a spacing as you can find would work. Billion is probably the best option.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Thank you so much everybody, for all the good info. I have learned the hard way to do lots of research before jumping into something I am
Not familiar with. The reason I ask about the grass seed being right on the surface, is because so many folks have told me dropping it on the surface and cultipacking it is too imprecise, get a drill. The biggest reason I am looking at a drill before a brillion, is that I am clearing a lot of virgin ground, and get the best results by planting it to oats or barley the first couple years. Works down all the trash from clearing to where I can get a respectably smooth hayfield.


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## Farmineer95 (Aug 11, 2014)

One of the best descriptions of a Brillion sure stand I've heard in a while. Make ridges drop seed split ridges. 
Brillion seeders are for small seeds and grasses. Seed size indicates how much energy is available for emergence. Too small and too deep is not a goood. On the contrary too big and too shallow isn't good either. Planting oats with a sure stand for a grain harvest is probably not the best. Can be used for a cover crop but grain yield will suffer. Also, residue will hinder how well ridges are formed and split.


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