# Why does animals prefer some hay over others all coastal bermuda?



## Palmettokat

This is my first year of coastal bermuda hay and a week ago today about four hundred bales were done for horses. My nephew got two hundred bales for his horses. This week he told me his horses liked it much better than the hay he already had up. Said they really liked it but it also gave them diarrhea. Well there has to be reason they like some hay better than other and also the diarrhea.

It had not been sprayed with any chemical at least two full months. It was fertilized with a balanced blend (think it was 17-17-17) about end of May and then nitrogen applied about last of June. Both applications were about 150 pounds per acre. Both were granular. Rained heavy on it for the full growth and it grew for about six weeks before being cut. My nephew said it was rich hay and excellent hay. He is mixing it with the older hay and says they are eating it well and no more issue with diarrhea. Think there was one horse that it hit heavy but not all.

I realize there can many things here but it strikes me if the hay is liked by the animals the buyer will notice that and maybe become a bigger customer.


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## somedevildawg

I'm thinkin he had something else going on.....but the customer is always right in my book, so I would play right along. I can tell you that high nitrate levels could be a problem, normally for lactating animals, but with full growth and good rain, that shouldn't have been a problem. I usually see higher nitrate levels after fertilization followed by a decent rain and then a drought.....i always have higher nitrate levels when that scenario plays out, and it will play out.....
But I can honestly say, I've never heard of any animals being loose because of my hay and it would be what one would call "rich" (well, let me say this, the customer needs to be rich  ) because it is fertilized with 100 units per acre of N every cut, other inputs may vary but not the N.....never had a problem like that....


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## endrow

Most people here would allow hay to age a bare minimum 30 days after bailing before feeding. They say that would avoid problems like you're talking about


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## Palmettokat

endrow, are you saying the person baling the hay or the buyer would hold the hay at least 30 days?

What is about letting it "age" makes the difference?


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## Tx Jim

My guess is hay horses like has more crude protein & TDN. Maybe had less days growing in field than other hay.


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## Tim/South

It could also be the soil Ph.

When we raised horse hay squares the customers said the horses would leave the other Bermuda and go to our's. We always kept the soil Ph as close to basic as we could. Our theory was that acidic soil grew acidic hay that critters could taste.


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## slowzuki

Here any time horses get fresh growth grass be it early first cut or leafy second cut it always loosens them up. They will eat themselves into collic if they are given the opportunity.


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## somedevildawg

slowzuki said:


> They will eat themselves into collic if they are given the opportunity.


Right, And then it's the fault of the hay, or in our case they hybrid strain of hay. "We can't feed this xyz because it made our horse colic" .....all the while a new round bales sits out in the pasture with holes ate out of the sides. The thought of having limited access just befuddles some....it much easier to blame it on the hay.


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## slowzuki

That’s one reason we put up some “poor” quality hay, the late first cut stuff that tests out poorly is great to leave in with the horses free choice. They will work away at it but not get themselves sick. Mostly just eating Timothy straw.


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## skyrydr2

Most of my horsey folks feed their horses across a scale. Know kidding Ive seen it personally. 
Each horse had specific feed instructions for that horse. 
None just dumped a bale in the pasture and let them chomp on it..


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## Palmettokat

Talked with nephew last week and he is feeding half and half new and old hay and all is well. Said horses still prefer it.


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## mlappin

skyrydr2 said:


> Most of my horsey folks feed their horses across a scale. Know kidding Ive seen it personally.
> Each horse had specific feed instructions for that horse.
> None just dumped a bale in the pasture and let them chomp on it..


Neighbors nutritionist  for their horse 's have em weigh it out for each horse, don't want em eating to much because it's too rich I guess.

Anyways, don't know why. I've had some round bales that sat outside for years, net was mostly gone and they were crap when they got put there. Take em out in the field and spread it around for the girls to lay on and they'll eat more than they lay on, dump it in a feeder and you'll just get to clean the feeder out as they'll ignore it. Beef cows can be contrary as well.


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## Teslan

Horses are horses I guess. Why they prefer some hay over hay is beyond me. I've had several customers tell me that when I'm out of hay or something they have bought other hay from other places that looks similar, but their horses won't eat it. But will clean up the hay I sell. I have no idea why that would be. I don't know what I do that others wouldn't do. Though I suspect many don't fertilize their hay. Since most newer hay customers seem shocked that I get up to 4 cuttings when others only get 2. You have to fertilize to do that. No other way to get 4 cuttings. So I might guess that the fertilizer causes the hay to be richer and taste better or something. Other people might not irrigate nearly as much either. We irrigate pretty heavy. Almost as much as corn growers for the grass hay. I guess if I cared enough I could go buy some competitors hay and test it and compare to mine. But I have better things to do then shop for hay. Like type here at you guys on haytalk.


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## Hayman1

Teslan said:


> Horses are horses I guess. Why they prefer some hay over hay is beyond me. I've had several customers tell me that when I'm out of hay or something they have bought other hay from other places that looks similar, but their horses won't eat it. But will clean up the hay I sell. I have no idea why that would be. I don't know what I do that others wouldn't do. Though I suspect many don't fertilize their hay. Since most newer hay customers seem shocked that I get up to 4 cuttings when others only get 2. You have to fertilize to do that. No other way to get 4 cuttings. So I might guess that the fertilizer causes the hay to be richer and taste better or something. Other people might not irrigate nearly as much either. We irrigate pretty heavy. Almost as much as corn growers for the grass hay. I guess if I cared enough I could go buy some competitors hay and test it and compare to mine. But I have better things to do then shop for hay. Like type here at you guys on haytalk.


I agree with you Teslan -it's the regular fertility program including lime as you need it. So much hay is junk as people cut it late, leave it on the ground too long and have no fertility program. As Ross said, it's simple see-it's a put and take system. You can't take what you don't put!


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## Teslan

Hayman1 said:


> I agree with you Teslan -it's the regular fertility program including lime as you need it. So much hay is junk as people cut it late, leave it on the ground too long and have no fertility program. As Ross said, it's simple see-it's a put and take system. You can't take what you don't put!


I guess it could be like lettuce is to humans. It's good tasting up to a point. If you let it grow to long it still looks good. In fact it might even look really good. But it will turn bitter. Maybe grass hay is the same to a horse. First cutting you can tell if you let it go too long. But other cuttings since here they don't head out you could let it grow for a couple of months. I quite often wonder about the advertisements for 2nd cutting grass cut in Sept here. So if they didn't fertilize and were just irrigating it probably was just sitting there from June to Sept not growing. Not really doing anything.


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## Hayjosh

Horses have a major sweet tooth, and if you give them hay with more sugars and complex carbohydrates in it, they're going to like it better. Horses also prefer fresh growth over old growth, and they prefer something with more protein, though this isn't always in their best interests if it isn't rationed.

A horse smells anything before they eat it, and they eat the sweeter thing first because they can smell it.

Nitrogen and potassium are both involved in the production and metabolism of carbohydrates, and both have a function in photosynthesis. And in plants, carbohydrates are produced by photosynthesis. Besides CO2 and UV energy from sunlight, the other third of the photosynthesis equation is water.

So the short version is, if you want to make a hay that horses like, it needs to be sweet (have lots of carbohydrates). To make carbohydrates your soil needs to be fertile and hydrated. If you're doing this and the other guys aren't, their hay probably is going to have a lower sugar content from decreased efficiency of photosynthesis.

Some grasses probably make a lot more sugars than others do, so these would be more palatable as well.


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## Palmettokat

The hay field this question came from was farmed with coastal by another person from about 15 years ago to about 7 or so. Bumped into a friend just the other day who did have horses and bought his hay from him. He also had a hay field which joined this land but had been in crop production for many years while this field had just come out of being timber land which was clear cut and sat for about three years before the coastal was sprigged on it, about 15 years ago. But my friend said the other guy told him to smell the grass out of the two fields, he said the one grown our land had a sweet smell to that his did not. So that makes me wonder if there is something about the nutrients in the less farmed land but our land is also probably just a little bit wetter than his land due to the way they slope even thought they join.

I do find all this thoughts interesting and I do plan to try to learn on this and maybe be able to grow hay horses ask for by name. lol


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## mlappin

somedevildawg said:


> Right, And then it's the fault of the hay, or in our case they hybrid strain of hay. "We can't feed this xyz because it made our horse colic" .....all the while a new round bales sits out in the pasture with holes ate out of the sides. The thought of having limited access just befuddles some....it much easier to blame it on the hay.


I had a horse guy I held a whole hoop building back just for him, it held 300 round bales packed full, all those were fed to his horses. He flat out told me, he's never had hay cause colic, a lack of water intake will every time. Could be if they like a hay so much that they just eat and eat and not take a drink, then the hay could be mistakingly blamed for the lack of water intake. Father had colic once, started salting the hay to increase the amount they drank, never had it again.


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## Coondle

Although growing a different type of hay there are some common principles involved.

I think Hayjosh in post 16 has the answer.... SUGARS. Children prefer ice-cream over cabbage, come to think it so do I   

Horses go for sugar treats every time.

I can tell by chewing on samples of oaten hay (the type I am familiar with) which sample horses will go for. If a sample tastes slightly sweet to me and another tasteless or bitter or sour, then I know the horses will go for hay that tastes sweet to me.

Sugar content of hay of course varies from variety to variety, but the question has been asked of differences in palatability within the same variety.

Now there is a multitude of factors in growing and harvesting hay that affects the sugar levels. Some have been mentioned already, ph, fertiliser regime, by amount mineral and timing. I will however outline 2 other factors that in my opinion have a far greater effect.

Plants have different lifecycle parameters involving growth and development and there are of course differences between varieties, between annuals and perennials, but the principles are the same.

I will deal with the grass type I know best, cereals.

Cereals have a variety of growth stages that is measured according to an international scale called "Zadocks", there are 10 stages from 0 through to 9 with some 10 sub-stages in each major stage giving 0 to 99 ie a 100 scale. for those wanting to read more:

https://www.agric.wa.gov.au› Crops › Grains › Production & postharvest

The research station/scientist theory for growing oaten hay tells me the best time to cut is zadocks 71, but I personally prefer to cut at stages 73 to 75, and in dodging rain events have cut as late as 77.

To put it in layman's terms the plant reaches sexual maturity and flowers. The flowers are fertilised and the plant sends hormone messages to the roots to send food including sugars up the stalk to make seeds for the next generation. As more flowers are fertilized the food rush up the stalk increases and then reduces as the seeds are filled and eventually ceases when the last grain is filled or the water/food supply in the roots is exhausted. There is then an empty lattice of cellulose (you would call it straw at that stage) holding the seed head up to dry and fully mature.

The best hay, ie most palatable to horses, is when the food rush in the stalk is at its maximum. My experience tells me that this is at early milk not just watery ripe.

Now oddly my experience tells me that for a variety of wheat that I sometimes grow the ideal stage is at zadocks 65 to 69. This is perhaps because the wheat stores the food in the straw (rather than in the roots) after the start of flowering ready to fill the grain. Cut it at that stage and very palatable.

So the time of cutting in the lifecycle of the plant is a huge factor in determining the acceptance by horses.

The second and more minor factor is the time of day when the hay is cut.

Just a humans have a diurnal fluctuation in bodily functioning, so too it seems do plants.

The food flow from roots to seed once begun, apparently varies according to time of day. Activity is least at about 4.00 am (suntime), ramping up toward 10.00 am and then at maximum flow until a little after sunset and gradually decreasing through the night until the nadir is reached at 4.00 am.

A longwinded way of providing my answer to Palmettokat's question of: why do animals prefer one hay over another.

So research when the sugar flow is greatest in the variety you grow, then cut it after 10.00 am, so you can produce the most palatable hay for that variety.

I do know that the weather plays havoc with all these plans of when to cut.


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## Jarrodr

Coondle
That was a very informative post. Thanks for sharing this information.


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## Coondle

Teslan said:


> Horses are horses I guess.........


No, not all horses are the same, just as people vary, so too do horses. Different horses have different taste preferences, and different dietary requirements. Varies between breeds/styles of horse and within the breeds.

I have often heard that a horse owner has to feed the best to one of their nags and has to control the feed supply/type to another. Different metabolic rates, different approach to food. Many will know of a person that will not leave the table until they have eaten every morsel and another person that would eat less than a canary. Horses are the same, one will gorge while there is hay in front of it and another will only pick at the offerings.

As a general rule ponies do very well on almost any hay, whereas a thoroughbred will waste away on poor quality forage, that its pony stablemate gets fat on.

Carefully controlling the food supply is very important for some horses. A pony fed unlimited high quality hay, and if not sufficiently exercised will founder (also called laminitis or slipper feet) which is very painful and can even be fatal.

There are several causes of laminitis, the class one is overfeeding fat ponies, overexercising unshod horses on hard ground, over trimming feet.retained placenta (I believe because the mare re-absorbs the protein charged placenta), lameness which then overloads the other foot, obesity (caused by overfeeding in the first place).

A racing stable I supply has a feed regime tailored to each horse and the hay is used as recreation for the horse to pick at in their individual yard to fill in the day. Hay is not an important element in the horses' nutrition.

I am not a fan of curry, but there are billions of people in the world that love a "good curry". To me that is an example of an oxymoron.  

Horses are the same, they have individual taste preferences.

I tell people that ask, and indeed many that do not ask, I tell them anyway:

There is only one test if hay is any good...............And that is; if your horse eats it. Does not matter if the horse next door eats all of their hay, if your horse does not eat that hay, it is no good. Get some other hay.


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## somedevildawg

For the record....he said "horses are horses I guess...." So I'm not sure he was even saying they were all the same, but some of the owners display some common traits  
If I have someone say their horses won't eat my hay I just tell 'em "they ain't hongry enuf, give 'em a few days  )


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## Coondle

somedevildawg said:


> For the record....he said "horses are horses I guess...." So I'm not sure he was even saying they were all the same, but some of the owners display some common traits
> If I have someone say their horses won't eat my hay I just tell 'em "they ain't hongry enuf, give 'em a few days  )


When a drought strikes here it is funny how less picky horse owners are about the hay they can get.

I guess a hungry horse is always glad to see some hay rather than none.


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## Teslan

Coondle said:


> When a drought strikes here it is funny how less picky horse owners are about the hay they can get.
> 
> I guess a hungry horse is always glad to see some hay rather than none.


I think I meant horses are horses as in you never know what one wants over another. Well at least I think I meant that. It was November I made that comment. LOL

I have people that say their horses do better on alfalfa. I have people that say they do better on the courser first cutting hays, I don't really care. I just sell them what they want if I have it.


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## Palmettokat

Met a farmer yesterday who raises hay. In our conversation he said you can grow hay with nitrogen only but the nutrients is what makes it desirable to the animals. Got my soil test results back this week and they made me think along this line before even talking with him. I plan to pull go back and pull mine apart and retest to see if I find in differences in the two fields even though they have had same crop, been fertilized the same for about 8 years. The field the horses really like the hay on has only been in farming use for for about 15 years.


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## Tim/South

This year I am sampling hay and soil. Never have done that before. I want to compare the tests and see what the hay reveals.

I have the hay packaged to send. Should have the soil soon....if this rain ever stops.


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## Palmettokat

Tim/South, I see you are in the Southeastern U.S.. Please tell me not near me in South Carolina with the snake that size in the hay bale!!


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## Tim/South

Palmettokat said:


> Tim/South, I see you are in the Southeastern U.S.. Please tell me not near me in South Carolina with the snake that size in the hay bale!!


No, not bordering South Carolina. The snake and bale are not mine. I "borrowed" the picture.


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## Palmettokat

Tim/South said:


> No, not bordering South Carolina. The snake and bale are not mine. I "borrowed" the picture.


My dentist is late 70's or early 80's. He grew up on farm in Kansas, western part I think, but use to tell me some of his growing up experiences. (My office at the time was right next to his and we would sit around often on Tuesday after work and just talk along with his employee and my friend who made the dentures and such.) One that would tickle me to no end was telling how there was little trees and animals looked for shade where they could find it. Snakes and rabbits would use the raked hay for shade. He said when you pick up a bale of hay and as you are lifting it a snake drops down and swings by your body you have already relieved yourself by the time you brain can tell your body it is dead. It seemed not to be that unusual the way he talked.

The funniest story of was when they were blowing post holes (think it was shale that ran below their land) and his dad came up with his VW Beetle while the boys were blowing the holes with dynamite. His dad had them wait for him to move his car further away. He said when the dynamite went off they watched as the rock covered the hole to direct the blast down flew up in the air as they watch it fly over them and land dead center the hood on the Beetle.

No doubt at the time of these happenings they were not that funny but he is not only a great dentist but also story teller. Will have to find a new dentist soon, think he is nearing retirement for at least the third time.


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## Palmettokat

Follow up: My few acres of coastal are in two adjoining field. For about the last eight years I have planted the same crop and fertilized and chemicals the same. Only difference is the field with the had horses really like has had more lime applied as it was very acid (was pine woods).

Had soil test done on the two fields and it was amazing how much difference there was in some of the levels. Talked with manager of farm supply place (CPS) where I normally buy my supplies. He felt he understood some of the reason and hate to tell you I got totally loss in his thinking. But he felt it was probably sulfur related which the soil test did not have results on. I will try to post the two soil test next week.


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## RuttedField

Some of it may be in breed.

I know you are talking horses here, but I had some Blue Leicester sheep, and they would prefer to graze the wetlands...and I mean wet lands all summer rather then timothy, clover, alfalfa, etc. It was strange, but they did.

Wetland grass IS palatable to sheep anyway, it is just a bear to get it baled up because it matures so fast...like Orchard Grass fast. Sheep do not like wet feet either, so that makes grazing it tough, but Blue Leister sheep loved it.

Just an observation, no science to back it up.


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## RuttedField

You guys will laugh, but I grew up doing soil testing by tasting grass in fields.

I am not making this up.

This is how my grandfather determined what his fields needed for amendments. Yes if he saw smooth bedstraw he knew it needed lime, but how much? A little taste of it would tell him how acidic the soil was. The same regarding milkweed and phosphorous. He always carried hard candy to take away the taste afterwards.

He passed that trick on to me, but admit now I use soil testing because it is a little more exact. In his day; chicken barns, and fish factories were everywhere here so getting soil amendments was a lot cheaper then...over applying was not as costly as it is today.


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## Palmettokat

Rutted Field, great to hear from you. Have a friend who is part of a very diverse farming operation. He said he can tell the moisture of his grain by tasting the grain or kernels.


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## Palmettokat

https://psaweb.clemson.edu/soils/aspx/standardreport.aspx?key=guD1346JM0933djktu88fKJL&pval=XJZRE343RU7456s3z&id=18030690

https://psaweb.clemson.edu/soils/aspx/standardreport.aspx?key=guD1346JM0933djktu88fKJL&pval=XJZRE343RU7456s3z&id=18030691

The last one is the one the horses really like. Any comments would be appreciated.

(well the links did work, will see if can scan to here).


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