# New member. First Frost: should I graze, bale, or leave 18" coastal alone?



## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

I am new to haytalk and hoping some of you guys with more experience can share some of your wisdom and point me in the right direction on the management of some established Coastal Bermuda hayfields that I just purchased. I have read a number of older posts and already learned a lot from the discusssion. I have also noted a number of publications that I need to read to improve my base knowledge. I have 70 acres of coastal split into fields of 12, 15, 26, and 17 acres. Each field is in a different condition and I think will require different answers. The previous owner was older and tired and didn't work the fields as he has in the past before selling to me in late September.

Field 1 (12 acres): this was the only field that was fertilized (once in May), cut, and baled this year. After May, we had very good rains this year. The grass is about 18" tall. We have had warm weather until the past 2 weeks, and just had our first frost. I'm not hurting for grass or hay and there is a lot of hay for sale in these parts. My question: should I leave it alone now, then cut and bale next spring? Should I burn just before the last frost? Should I graze it some over the winter? Also, do you recommend I test the soul and amend now or wait until later? Confused on the best plan.

Thanks in advance for your patience and advice...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Now is a good time to put down phosphorous or potash.....so I would focus on soil sampling the fields now. You want to apply nitrogen in the Spring.

Controlled burns are a excellent way to clean up a field. I tend to do those in the very early spring before green up....it will give the spring growth a great start and a flush of growth from the burn.

If you have cattle and the ground is nice and firm, grazing would be a option now.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Welcome to Haytalk lone star.....

I would wait for spring for burn, with that much growth that's your very best option to remove the thatch before next years season. Are you going to maintain the fields as hay fields? What about the other fields, was anything done to them this year? I would go ahead and pull soil samples this year to create a baseline to start with.....probably are gonna want to lime the fields this fall/winter depending on ph levels, it takes a while to make changes in ph, the sooner the better. Good luck


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

Welcome to Haytalk Lone Star 1!


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

somedevildawg said:


> Welcome to Haytalk lone star.....
> I would wait for spring for burn, with that much growth that's your very best option to remove the thatch before next years season. Are you going to maintain the fields as hay fields? What about the other fields, was anything done to them this year? I would go ahead and pull soil samples this year to create a baseline to start with.....probably are gonna want to lime the fields this fall/winter depending on ph levels, it takes a while to make changes in ph, the sooner the better. Good luck


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

Devildawg, I do plan to produce hay from all of the fields. Deep sandy soil along an upper branch of the Trinity River --the water table is pretty high and seems to be sub-irrigated. In addition, I have a deep water well already on the place with a large 3phase pump to irrigate when when drought conditions develop again...whether it is next year or 10 years from now.

If I needed the hay, do you get good quality hay this late in the season? a friend told me that after a frost, the allowing cows to graze grass in the field is not very different than feeding hay. Is that correct?


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## 32-0-0 (May 30, 2017)

[quote name="Lone Star 1" post="803018" timestamp="1509488295"]

If I needed the hay, do you get good quality hay this late in the season? a friend told me that after a frost, the allowing cows to graze grass in the field is not very different than feeding hay. Is that

Last year I made some decent coastal hay during the third week of November...yield wasn't great but my horse customers fed it with no problems. Same quality factors in early season are in play during the late season... what was the maturity of grass when cut, amount of fertilizer applied, moisture when bales, ect.

You can run the cows in the frosted coastal, but the protein won't be as high as with hay...coastal loses much of its protein after going dormant. If you do run he cows on the dormant coastal then be sure to supplement with some kind of protein.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Wow, sounds like a nice place....whether you cut and bale or turn em to pasture, it's not going to be any real amount of difference except that you may be able to harvest it, thus saving some from degrading further...
As we get late into the season, the grass will "harden" a bit anyways, the first cut in the spring will be of the highest quality, unfortunately it's also when we receive a bulk of rain (hopefully) so getting it put up right can be an exercise in futility at times.....
Do your homework and plan on draining the pocketbook initially to bring the fields back in shape....I typically spend about $400-500 per year per acre in amendments alone....after a couple of years of hammering down on the NPK and lime, the sod should be well established so weed control is much easier but the NPK and ph still persist, it's a vicious cycle that presents itself.


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

somedevildawg said:


> Wow, sounds like a nice place....whether you cut and bale or turn em to pasture, it's not going to be any real amount of difference except that you may be able to harvest it, thus saving some from degrading further...
> As we get late into the season, the grass will "harden" a bit anyways, the first cut in the spring will be of the highest quality, unfortunately it's also when we receive a bulk of rain (hopefully) so getting it put up right can be an exercise in futility at times.....
> Do your homework and plan on draining the pocketbook initially to bring the fields back in shape....I typically spend about $400-500 per year per acre in amendments alone....after a couple of years of hammering down on the NPK and lime, the sod should be well established so weed control is much easier but the NPK and ph still persist, it's a vicious cycle that presents itself.


If you are spending $4-500 per year on Amendments, Is there any room for $ margin after cost to bale? That is both concerning and disheartening. I knew it would not be a big moneymaker, but that seems like a money loser...


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes, if the fields are productive....you should yield somewhere around 7tpa depending on a whole lot of factors trumped entirely by Mother Nature. 7tpa @ $150 pt it ain't no money maker that's for sure....it's a tough livin'.....
The input costs will decrease a bit in the third and fourth year once adequate levels are achieved, of course that's barring any increase in NPK cost, which never stay the same for long.....as soon as grain prices increase, so do NPK.....that's concerning and disheartening as well, but it's the real world, no sugarcoating 
Then of course we enter Mother Nature into the equation and you have the perfect recipe to lose some money.....that $150pt goes to $80pt in the blink of an eye 
Let me say this, I chose it ( haymaking ) as a way to lose money.....I picked a winner


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

LS1,

In our state, your frost-killed Coastal bermudagrass is called standing hay. It would be such a waste to not use this forage and then burn it off in late winter/early spring. If you have cattle that need something to eat, let them graze this grass and, and like 32-0-0 said, provide a source of additional protein for them. I noticed that Tractor Supply has protein lick tubs "on sale" in their flier yesterday.

Now is the time to take soil samples. Don't do any fertilizing until you know what your soil needs based on those soil tests. Additionally, be aware that fertilizer companies charge a per-acre fee for spreading fertilizer- usually $5 to $6 per acre. There is nothing wrong with applying phosphorus and potash along with the needed nitrogen at the time the bermudagrass breaks dormancy in early spring. So, save yourself one spreading fee by applying any recommended phosphorus and potassium with the nitrogen in early spring.

If your soil tests show phosphorus and potassium are in the low to very low category, you may want to have your fertilizer dealer make a blend such as 80 - 100- 100 N- P2O 5 - K2 O for the early spring application. For each additional regrowth that you want to make hay out of, have your fertilizer dealer make a blend that is in a ratio of 4 - 1- 5, or something like 80 - 20 - 100 per acre. Also, if the soil test shows it is deficient, include sulfur with the first fertilizer application.

The Texas A&M AgriLife Research and Extension Center- Overton, web site is a great source of research-based information on soils, forage and cattle production. The web site is:

http://overton.tamu.edu

Vincent Haby


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

Thanks to each of you for your advice. VHaby, I really appreciate the specifics on soil testing and supplements.

Does 'standing hay' have more or less protein and other nutrients as compared to the last cutting of hay from the same field?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Bermudagrass left as standing hay for grazing in late fall will have lower nutritive value than bermudagrass cut for hay at an earlier growth stage. This is illustrated in a University of Arkansas Extension publication accessible by the following link.

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/MP434.pdf

In Table 2 of that publication, Effects of maturity on forage quality, the following values are shown for crude protein (CP) and total digestible nutrients (TDN), respectively, in hay as the bermudagrass matures:

Early vegetative 16.0, 61.

Late vegetative 16.5, 54.

15 - 28 days growth 16.0, 55

29 - 42 days growth 12.0, 50

43 - 56 days growth 8.0, 43

For alfalfa cut for hay:

Early vegetative 23, 66

Late vegetative 20, 63

Early bloom 18, 60

Mid-bloom 17, 58

Full bloom 15, 55.

These CP and TDN values show the decline in nutritive value of hay cut at increasing maturity, so forage left in the field as standing hay will have lower nutritive value compared to hay cut at an earlier growth stage. In addition, some nutrients, particularly nitrogen and potassium, in standing hay will be leached, or washed out by rainfall, so the nutritive value of forage left for standing hay declines even further, the longer the standing hay remains in the field. In this discussion, one also has to consider the declining nutritive value of hay stored on the soil and left uncovered. If at all possible, store hay in a barn, or at least store it on a coarse crushed rock base or pallets and cover it with a durable tarp that will allow air movement around the stored hay.

Sorry for the delay in this response to your question.

Vincent


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

vhaby said:


> LS1,
> 
> In our state, your frost-killed Coastal bermudagrass is called standing hay. It would be such a waste to not use this forage and then burn it off in late winter/early spring. If you have cattle that need something to eat, let them graze this grass and, and like 32-0-0 said, provide a source of additional protein for them. I noticed that Tractor Supply has protein lick tubs "on sale" in their flier yesterday.
> 
> ...


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## Lone Star 1 (Oct 31, 2017)

VHaby-
I found an article at the A&M website you noted that discussed "stockpiled hay" (which you referred to a "standing hay"), the drop in protein, and the increase in acid detergent fiber. But the article did not discuss what to do to offset the increased ADF, the dangers, etc, nor did it provide a link for where it is discussed.

I know this is a hay forum, but do you know the answers to the above? I understand that reduced protein is not desired, but I am not sure what to do with the new knowledge that matured standing hay has a very high level of ADF. Any thoughts?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

LS1,

Cows in their third trimester grazing stockpiled hay (yes, also called standing hay) and receiving no additional supplemental feed will lose weight, The following article discusses nutritive value of standing hay and grazing cattle on standing hay. Near the end it provides suggestions for supplementing cows in their third trimester of pregnancy. I supplement my cows in their third trimester with feeding small square bales of alfalfa to increase protein and whole corn to increase energy. I grow my own alfalfa. Corn currently is about $6 per 50 lb bag at the Northeast Texas Farmers Co-op at Sulphur Springs. This Co-op also has a location at Canton, TX. Depending on where in northcentral Texas you are located, you might find corn at a supplier in the Waco area.

You can contact the Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Beef Cattle Specialist, Dr. Jason Banta, for more specifics regarding this subject. The phone number is 903-834-6191 or look up his email on the TAMU-Overton web site. He has been, and continues to be, a tremendous help to me. Your Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Service county agent may also be a great resource to you on this matter.

Vincent

http://www.lsuagcenter.com/profiles/lbenedict/articles/page1491322059573


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