# Coated seed



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Just went and picked up my order of seed yesterday and I discovered the orchard grass and birdsfoot trefoil seed I ordered was coated. I wasn't very happy about that as I didn't order enough seed since it was coated. I never even thought about the orchard grass being coated. The orchard was 46% pure seed and the trefoil was 64% pure seed. They had some additional orchard on hand so I got some extra but the trefoil would have to be ordered.

My question is with coated seed do I still need to plant the full seeding rate of live seed? With the orchard I would need to plant twice the amount I was planning on to get the same amount of live seed per acre. What is everyone's experience with coated seed and adjusting the seeding rate?

Hayden


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

They claim you dont have to seed as much with coated seed. My experience on my sandy soil is I end up having to reseed. Does not work at all. The problem I had was the coating absorbs a lot of moisture. Which sound good in theory, but the coating absorbed most of the moisture. Leaving just enough for the seed to just start to germinate. Than the sand gets dry and before the seed can put down a solid root it dies. With non coated seed it can start putting down a solid root and survive. So now I will only buy non coated seed.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> Just went and picked up my order of seed yesterday and I discovered the orchard grass and birdsfoot trefoil seed I ordered was coated. I wasn't very happy about that as I didn't order enough seed since it was coated. I never even thought about the orchard grass being coated. The orchard was 46% pure seed and the trefoil was 64% pure seed. They had some additional orchard on hand so I got some extra but the trefoil would have to be ordered.
> 
> My question is with coated seed do I still need to plant the full seeding rate of live seed? With the orchard I would need to plant twice the amount I was planning on to get the same amount of live seed per acre. What is everyone's experience with coated seed and adjusting the seeding rate?
> 
> Hayden


Maybe it comes down to personal preference, but I would not use coated seed. You are a good farmer and you know the fertility level of your soil so if lacking you'd have fertilized. In this case the so called xtra nitrogen one may get from coating is not useful. How much xtra do they charge for this coating? I'd rather buy top uncoated seed and seed at a rate of at least 1.5 the recommended rate. But that's just me


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Trillium Farm said:


> Maybe it comes down to personal preference, but I would not use coated seed. You are a good farmer and you know the fertility level of your soil so if lacking you'd have fertilized. In this case the so called xtra nitrogen one may get from coating is not useful. How much xtra do they charge for this coating? I'd rather buy top uncoated seed and seed at a rate of at least 1.5 the recommended rate. But that's just me


 I would have preferred to have had uncoated seed as well but I didn't want to wait for another order to come in before I start planting so I still took the seed. I was also told that particular variety I wanted to try was only available in coated seed. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to increase the seeding rate or if the coated seed can be planted at the same rate as uncounted and still get the same stand as they claim. If I increase the seeding rate to make up for the coating the seed will cost just over $1 per pound more than uncoated. I'm not sowing very many acres so that added cost isn't too big of an issue.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Seed companies say to plant at the same rate(weight).

Regards, Mike


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

FarmerCline said:


> I would have preferred to have had uncoated seed as well but I didn't want to wait for another order to come in before I start planting so I still took the seed. I was also told that particular variety I wanted to try was only available in coated seed. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to increase the seeding rate or if the coated seed can be planted at the same rate as uncounted and still get the same stand as they claim. If I increase the seeding rate to make up for the coating the seed will cost just over $1 per pound more than uncoated. I'm not sowing very many acres so that added cost isn't too big of an issue.


In that case i'd overseed by a good margin, just to be sure


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

FarmerCline said:


> I would have preferred to have had uncoated seed as well but I didn't want to wait for another order to come in before I start planting so I still took the seed. I was also told that particular variety I wanted to try was only available in coated seed. I'm just trying to figure out if I need to increase the seeding rate or if the coated seed can be planted at the same rate as uncounted and still get the same stand as they claim. If I increase the seeding rate to make up for the coating the seed will cost just over $1 per pound more than uncoated. I'm not sowing very many acres so that added cost isn't too big of an issue.


My seed guy tells me to seed at the same rate because enough more of the coated seed (over non-coated live seed) comes up that the stands will be virtually equal.

And, like you, I would seed extra seed if it was recommended and all I could get was coated seed; so he could easily sell me extra seed but doesn't think I need it.

Mark


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

glasswrongsize said:


> My seed guy tells me to seed at the same rate because enough more of the coated seed (over non-coated live seed) comes up that the stands will be virtually equal.
> 
> And, like you, I would seed extra seed if it was recommended and all I could get was coated seed; so he could easily sell me extra seed but doesn't think I need it.
> 
> Mark


 Yeah that is what the seed companies claim but I'm unsure if that is indeed the case. The dealer I bought the seed from was more than happy to sell me additional seed to make up for the coating. I bought some more orchard since they had it in stock but the birdsfoot trefoil would have had to be ordered.

Hate to waste seed if indeed I don't need it but I'm thinking on the orchard I might split the difference and seed an additional 50% rather than doubling the seeding rate to make up for the coating. Might just go with what I got on the trefoil since I was seeding it pretty heavy to start with.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

FarmerCline said:


> Yeah that is what the seed companies claim but I'm unsure if that is indeed the case.


I'm not convinced that *is* the case either. I didn't go on and on with my overthinking in the above post, but:

By telling me that I didn't need to seed more with coated seed,

1) they sent me home happy and ignorant that I spent the same amount of money as originally anticipated and if my stand wasn't as expected, I could mentally blame its lacking on weather, seedbed prep, seeding, etc...

2) if they were to suggest that I use more seed to make up for the coating, they would, in essence, be admitting that they are selling me the coating (something clay-based IIRC) at seed price.

In my mind, there's as good of a chance of any that it's a marketing deal to sell less seed at same money. If they can sell clay for @5 a pound...  If they only offer coated seed and non-coated has to be special-ordered, most people will just buy more of it to be sure as (the first time) they hadn't planned far enough ahead to have queried if it was non-coated when they called to make sure it was on-hand. When they go to pick it up, it's go-time and the constraints are in place.

It's just the nature of me to be skeptical and think about other's motives only results in muddy water and no sure answer most of the time.

Just thinking out loud, Mark


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I understand the whole concept of coated seed but are we not shooting for a certain plant population per square foot or per acre. If you only put say half the seed down there will only be half the seed population. The seed companies will next be coating seed corn so if you are say shooting for 28000 population you will still have to plant 28000 seeds correct or can you plant 14000 coated seeds and get a 28000 plant population.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I also never knew orchard grass could be coated. I never would have thought to be sure that it wasn't. And I've planted grass each of the last 3 years.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

IMHO coated seed is a huge rip off. They are selling clay for $4 or more per lb. Several times I have planted coated and raw alfalfa side by side. Every time I got a better stand with the raw seed. I refuse to buy coated. Timothy was even worse because it was 50% coating and the price is the same.

The worst rip off is GMO alfalfa. You have to pay the tech fee on clay.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

So this coating is just clay? 
Maybe someone should send this stuff to a lab to be tested? 
I have used coated seed for crops (tomatoes, carrots and other really small seed with extreme success! 95-100% germination. But there is pesticides and such on them to keep them from being eaten at such a young fragile state. Does this coated grass seed do the same?


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

If you really want a fun experience let your drill filled with coated seed get rained on. By the time you get that mess cleaned up you will despise the stuff.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

skyrydr2 said:


> So this coating is just clay?
> Maybe someone should send this stuff to a lab to be tested?
> I have used coated seed for crops (tomatoes, carrots and other really small seed with extreme success! 95-100% germination. But there is pesticides and such on them to keep them from being eaten at such a young fragile state. Does this coated grass seed do the same?


 The particular coating on this orchard grass does have some small amounts of micronutrients that supposedly help. No insecticide or fungicide.....which I would think would be more beneficial than the micros.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Jay in WA said:


> If you really want a fun experience let your drill filled with coated seed get rained on. By the time you get that mess cleaned up you will despise the stuff.


 Yep been there and done that with coated alfalfa seed. I put off vacuuming out the seeder until the next day after planting and it rained that night.....the seed in the feed cups absorbed the moisture and turned to mud. The last alfalfa seed I planted was uncoated but still inoculated and treated with fungicide.....99% pure. No kidding on the rip off with coated RR alfalfa.....planted some last year to try it out and it was 40% coating and $8 a pound. Might as well say it was $12 a pound for the actual seed.....won't do that again.


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## Farmineer95 (Aug 11, 2014)

I was told the coating was calcium with a clay binder. Supposed to help with germination.
I was told RR tech fee is 120ish per bag.
I was told RR low lignin tech fee is an additional 120ish per bag. 500 to 600 per bag???? Same price per acre as a premium corn variety.
In my area ask anyone the tried RR low lignin and they will never do it again. The stand does not have the persistence expected from alfalfa.
I can see benefits of coating,but I too was caught in the rain. One drop in the seedbox ends your day.


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

I was planting Orchard/Bluegrass and had the 'correct amount'. But I recognized that I might be running a little heavy as I was getting close to the end, so I ran to the local seed store and bought another 100lbs just in case. This was Saturday morning, and nothing would be open until Monday and I wanted this completed. My initial purchase was from a seed vendor and I specified non-coated seed.

I didn't check the seed, just saw it was Harvestar and the 450lbs I had already purchased was uncoated so I didn't think about it until I was getting ready to open the bag. Of course, Saturday afternoon when everything was closed. It was coated and 34% of weight was coating. I was stuck, so I put it in the bin and kept my fingers crossed.

That was the end of "their" problem. My problem, was, other than alfalfa, I've never used a coated seed. The seeds with coating were significantly larger, so... in my infinite wisdom, I thought I'd need to open the settings a bit. I added 20% to the setting I was using for uncoated seed, and proceeded to finish out the final few acres. I probably had about 3 acres and the ends to go. At 10lbs/ac, I should have had far more than enough.

After finishing a small area, I thought I would check and see how things were going, so I checked the box. And it was EMPTY. The coating and the increase in size had caused me to put about 50lb/ac over those 2 acres and I still had another acre to go.

Big learning experience... and an expensive one. I have no idea how that area will look come spring. There is bluegrass at 15lbs, but that is a pittance compared to the orchard on that spot.

Anyway, lessons learned to check for coating when purchasing and to calibrate, no matter WHERE I am in the pasture.

I had to wait until Monday and get more seed to finish up anyway. Closed that setting gate down and finished everything up.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Dadnatron said:


> I was planting Orchard/Bluegrass and had the 'correct amount'. But I recognized that I might be running a little heavy as I was getting close to the end, so I ran to the local seed store and bought another 100lbs just in case. This was Saturday morning, and nothing would be open until Monday and I wanted this completed. My initial purchase was from a seed vendor and I specified non-coated seed.
> 
> I didn't check the seed, just saw it was Harvestar and the 450lbs I had already purchased was uncoated so I didn't think about it until I was getting ready to open the bag. Of course, Saturday afternoon when everything was closed. It was coated and 34% of weight was coating. I was stuck, so I put it in the bin and kept my fingers crossed.
> 
> ...


 Yep, coated seed flows faster than uncoated seed through a drill. If anything you probably should have reduced the setting 20% rather than increasing. I now always calibrate a drill or seeder for each different kind of seed before planting. It's time consuming but beats guessing on the rate and either putting out too much and running out of seed or not planting enough......been there and done that.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

There are different brands of seed coating.Some are rough and some are slippery and can make a huge difference how it flows threw seed meters.


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## Dadnatron (Jul 24, 2017)

FarmerCline said:


> Yep, coated seed flows faster than uncoated seed through a drill. If anything you probably should have reduced the setting 20% rather than increasing. I now always calibrate a drill or seeder for each different kind of seed before planting. It's time consuming but beats guessing on the rate and either putting out too much and running out of seed or not planting enough......been there and done that.


I would have calibrated, but I thought "I have 100lbs and 3 acres and ends to go, even if I run a little heavy, I should have more than enough."... Famous last words...

I was tired of calibrating this machine and almost through with seeding. But I learned... It ran through like water. And not only that... but I don't know where in that 2 acres, it really ran out. Could have been between acre 1 and 2. Who knows???


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Dadnatron said:


> I would have calibrated, but I thought "I have 100lbs and 3 acres and ends to go, even if I run a little heavy, I should have more than enough."... Famous last words...
> 
> I was tired of calibrating this machine. But I learned... It ran through like water. And not only that... but I don't know where in that 2 acres, it really ran out. Could have been between acre 1 and 2. Who knows???


I've made the same mistake,not that extreme though.

To calibrate I unhook 1 meter and catch it in a bag.Wiegh it.Multiply by number of meters.figure how much ground I covered.Divide total by area covered.

I usually do atleast a 1/2 acre to get a fairly acurate measure.1 acre is better.

I use a outside meter then over lap coming back so I dont have a skip.


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## azmike (Jan 4, 2015)

Jay in WA said:


> IMHO coated seed is a huge rip off. They are selling clay for $4 or more per lb. Several times I have planted coated and raw alfalfa side by side. Every time I got a better stand with the raw seed. I refuse to buy coated. Timothy was even worse because it was 50% coating and the price is the same.
> 
> The worst rip off is GMO alfalfa. You have to pay the tech fee on clay.


I agree that GMO alfalfa is a rip-off, a mistake we will not repeat! It was a very pretty purple though...


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

You guys say that GMO alfalfa is a rip-off due to the tech fee? I’m still not to sure of RR alfalfa and stand life. Though I’m coming to the realization my one field that is thin 4 years in is more due to an early hard freeze the first year. And by hard freeze I mean -15 degrees. But I feel the tech fee per bag is a small price to pay for excellent weed control. Isn’t that what you are paying it for? I’m debating planting rr again next year, but the weed presence anymore for new seedings almost makes that decision for me.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

The ripoff with RR is that you pay the per pound tech fee on the clay coating too, not just the pure seed.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I agree the rip off with RR alfalfa is that your paying the ridiculously high tech fee and the bag is 40% coating. I have a single field of RR alfalfa and I won't be planting anymore.....I just don't see that much of a benefit over conventional alfalfa. The only situation I see RR alfalfa being worth it is for a field that has an infestation of perennial broadleaf weeds. Annual broadleaf weeds and grasses are controlled easy enough in conventional alfalfa.

Now RR orchard, brome, timothy or other grasses I would be interested in.....weed control options in grass hay are much more limited.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Paying a technology fee per bag of coated roundup ready alfalfa seed does appear to be a rip-off when one acknowledges the weight of the seed coating in each bag. Is the technology fee higher per bag of uncoated RR alfalfa seed (if there is such a thing?) I don't know.

In my understanding, the seed coating is more than clay. It is supposed to include fungicides to protect the germinating seed from diseases, and may include some lime and trace minerals such as molybdenum and maybe boron to help the seedlings get a better start in life.

In addition to the seed coating, consider the percentage pure live seed and the germinating percentage. I have purchased Ball clover seed that when one considers the seed coating, the percentage pure live seed, and the germination percentage, I had to plant about three pounds of the seed in order to get one pound of pure live germinating see into the soil.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

vhaby said:


> Paying a technology fee per bag of coated roundup ready alfalfa seed does appear to be a rip-off when one acknowledges the weight of the seed coating in each bag. Is the technology fee higher per bag of uncoated RR alfalfa seed (if there is such a thing?) I don't know.
> 
> In my understanding, the seed coating is more than clay. It is supposed to include fungicides to protect the germinating seed from diseases, and may include some lime and trace minerals such as molybdenum and maybe boron to help the seedlings get a better start in life.
> 
> In addition to the seed coating, consider the percentage pure live seed and the germinating percentage. I have purchased Ball clover seed that when one considers the seed coating, the percentage pure live seed, and the germination percentage, I had to plant about three pounds of the seed in order to get one pound of pure live germinating see into the soil.


pretty sure all RR alfalfa is required to have the coating by big M..RR tech fees are based on what they can squeeze out of a farmer per acre.I f they think they can save or benefit you $200 acre they want 1/2 of it basically.Useing coating on the first RR alfalfa also stretched the limited seed supply so it goes over more acres and collecting more tech fees.
Roundup was once a good product and saved on chemical costs in corn and beans but now it doesn't work on a lot of resistant weeds so we have to use other chemicals to control them but yet they still want the tech fee for the seed.

Tech fees in seed corn can be more then the seed it self.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> pretty sure all RR alfalfa is required to have the coating by big M..RR tech fees are based on what they can squeeze out of a farmer per acre.I f they think they can save or benefit you $200 acre they want 1/2 of it basically.Useing coating on the first RR alfalfa also stretched the limited seed supply so it goes over more acres and collecting more tech fees.
> Roundup was once a good product and saved on chemical costs in corn and beans but now it doesn't work on a lot of resistant weeds so we have to use other chemicals to control them but yet they still want the tech fee for the seed.
> 
> Tech fees in seed corn can be more then the seed it self.


Sometimes I wonder why farmers even grow corn at all. It sure seems like it doesn't pay except maybe 1-2 years out of 25. I just figure so many are in debt that they almost have to raise it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Teslan said:


> Sometimes I wonder why farmers even grow corn at all. It sure seems like it doesn't pay except maybe 1-2 years out of 25. I just figure so many are in debt that they almost have to raise it.


Its a disease ,lol.Just a different disease then growing hay.

I'll still make money on corn this yr but watch my input costs closely


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

When RR alfalfa first came out I planted 2 pivots of it. Was raw seed and as I recall it was around $6/lb. Worked well but I have never planted it again. Pretty much locks me out of the export market with RR. Export is the primary large volume market we have. The dairys feed very little hay anymore so its hard to sell hay to them.

From my experience RR is a great product if you have a need for it. If the conventional herbicides are taking care of the weeds your most likely better off staying conventional.


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## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

I have RR alf and conventional alf and I like the RR technology but I am pissed off about the tech fee and this fall I planted all conventional. Like Jay mentioned I too had some of the 1st gen RR alf and it was not coated seed. It doesn't set well with me to pay a tech fee on inert material other wise called coating. Paying a tech fee on 17lbs of inert material in each bag is BS.

Now comes low lig alfalfa with a tech fee x 2 and paying a tech fee on inert material, no thank you.

I pressed the issue at a seed meeting last spring and the answer I got was that if it was not coated they would just charge more per lb, I bought seed from a different co.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> There are different brands of seed coating.Some are rough and some are slippery and can make a huge difference how it flows threw seed meters.


 HUGE difference. We mix talcum powder with all the small seeds that goes through the small box .


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