# looking to switch from stack wagons to bale baron



## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

We have been thinking of selling our 1069 and 1049 bale wagons and buying a decent used pull type bale baron. We have to travel 10 miles to most of our hay and straw fields and traffic is bad. We are thinking it would be much safer hauling on trucks and trailers up the road, which we can do with stacking trucks and trailers from stack wagons. Also having trouble finding operators that what to run the cruisers, and we are thinking that it would easier to train some one to run a baron. Any thoughts?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

We might want to strip your parts machine before you liquidate the cruisers completely!


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Sounds good so far, how do you market? Vans, flats, pickup or feed it yourself? Do you deliver to stables? Some markets put a premium on the package some may find it less desirable.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Somehow I didnt think that there were many stackers out that way. I learn something new every day. How is the market for them locally?
I can honestly say that I wouldn't want to brave 10 miles of heavy traffic in mine with it loaded. Being the 1st one to the scene of the crash isn't appealing to me.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Not sure why, but I've seen people haul the bundles in that use big baler twine and others that used straps, didn't sell as well as "loose" square bales.

I do recall somebody saying in another thread that the bundles can heat just like a big square bale can.


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## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

I've tossed around the idea of adding a baron/bandit to the stackwagon setup. I'm right at the point of adding another bale wagon and baler but think a bandit or baron would be better. Keep runnin bale wagons close and use the bundler on the father fields . 
The biggest drawback for me on adding a bale wagon is like u said, finding operators. One dropped stack can be a real mess. Like u also kinda touched on is I don't like the constant road travel. To many people looking for an excuse to sue.


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

I went to Kuhn accumulator because of that problem operators that can Run cruisers are nonexistent. I have bought some 21 bundles on the brokering side of things seems to be no faster than grapple an accumulator but the biggest thing I see is we are still busting the bundles to handle the bales not many guys we sell to want the bundles put together on their trailers in van trailers the problem is how to get them unloaded unless you bust him first most places do not want or have the capacity to handle The bundles and complete package form so all the ones we have bought we've ended up busting and stacking on trailers accordingly with grapples


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Lot of wasted $ to make bundles if they are broken down early in the shipping process thats for sure. If you are rehandling several times and have the right attachments to handle two bundles at a time (42 bales) it speeds things up and lets you fit more bales in tall sheds.

Sit down and run some numbers before buying one, its a big investment. Breaking the bundles down early to me is like buying a self propelled stackwagon when your sheds are to short to dump in.



gearhartfarms82 said:


> I went to Kuhn accumulator because of that problem operators that can Run cruisers are nonexistent. I have bought some 21 bundles on the brokering side of things seems to be no faster than grapple an accumulator but the biggest thing I see is we are still busting the bundles to handle the bales not many guys we sell to want the bundles put together on their trailers in van trailers the problem is how to get them unloaded unless you bust him first most places do not want or have the capacity to handle The bundles and complete package form so all the ones we have bought we've ended up busting and stacking on trailers accordingly with grapples


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## bltfarms (Dec 13, 2013)

If your 1069 is diesel I would be interested in it.

Friend of mine has bale baron he uses for straw. Absolutely loves it.bales anywhere from 2-4k per day 20-30k per year


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Slowzuki,

I agree lots of wasted money. I never handled bundles till this yr but found out in my market they make no difference and have to be broke. Sucks but just how it is. Thats one reason im glad i didnt go that route


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

gearhartfarms82 said:


> Slowzuki,
> 
> I agree lots of wasted money. I never handled bundles till this yr but found out in my market they make no difference and have to be broke. Sucks but just how it is. Thats one reason im glad i didnt go that route


Your market may need educating.

As with any change there is resistance.
The customer will not change if you don't, and keep doing the same thing and you get the same result. I scarcely handle a bale now, keep telling people I am allergic to lifting bales.

Bought my Bandit in 2009. It was the first bundler in the district and had done a couple of seasons before I bought it. Not many around here had even seen bundles back then and most bundles I made that yearn were broken down for loading.

Have now finished the sixth season with the Bandit, and only a few packs left, about 1,000 bales. Now the vast majority of buyers that collect, take full packs loaded with my front end loader. A few still bring horse floats and have to break packs down.

Buyers wanting to have hay delivered by me, have the choice, full packs or come and get it. Couple of years since I delivered broken packs. Deliveries I do by flat top truck and flat top trailer with full packs if the buyer/s have forks to unload. Can carry up to 17 packs total. If they do not have forks, I take my front end loader on the trailer and carry up to 10 packs on the truck.

Work smart not harder is my view.
Once customers see the benefit of full packs they will prefer them.

Took a little time but some collect customers changed their collection vehicles to suit and some have gone elsewhere. Still sold out of hay, at my price, and all remaining hay is spoken for and still 3 months to new cutting. Selling did not get going until March and have quit about 12,000 bales since then. My ands are now soft, (rarely use gloves) because my hands have scarcely touched a twine this year, come to think of it several years.

From the enquiries I am receiving I could have sold another 4 or 5,000 idiot bricks at a canter.
Must be doing something right.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Like coondle I too am allergic to loose bales......we only load and sell bundles for the most part, very few individual bales.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

To the guys that are using bundles , any problems with hay not keeping in a tight bundle?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Bob M said:


> To the guys that are using bundles , any problems with hay not keeping in a tight bundle?


No, never had that problem.......I use the blue machine.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have seen problems first hand with the baron bundles at my local co op......baron bundles seem to sag badly after some handling. I do not know if that is baron operator induced....but the bandit bundles do not seem to have this problem.

Regards, Mike


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I echo coondle and dawgs experience on bundle acceptance. It took a year or 2 to transition customer base. Now if the customer doesn't want the bundle, fine I don't need that account. I decided life was too short to spend it in some ladies tiny hay loft. I did that long enough.

Bundles do need to be dry. That is for sure an issue. If you are making stacker bales now I don't think you'll see much difference in moisture requirements. You need a dense bale for stacks to stand up. It will be the same with the bundle. Loose bales in bundles mean poor handling/stacking. When we did kicker bales we could make puffballs and barn cure them. Tough to make money shipping them though. Switched to stacker and had to go to preservative to make dense stackable bales. Didn't see much difference going to bundles from stacker, if ya don't want to fingerprint them they gotta be solid. Seems to apply to all mechanical handling.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

From what I understand of the baron bundles, if you use acid and bale a bit wet, and they dry or equalize during storage, they will be sloppy to handle.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Bob M said:


> To the guys that are using bundles , any problems with hay not keeping in a tight bundle?


Keep better in the bundle (dry hay only here) than as individual loose bales. The Bandit straps keep the bundle tight and when opened the inside bale surfaces are just like the day they were baled. Always point that out to customers who come to inspect. Will even open a bundle to show 'em.

Less loss of material from handling the bales too, I estimate my rubbish on the floor is way less than 50% of what gets wasted with handling loose bales.

Baron bundles are shorter than Bandit bundles and are not as tight to start with and from seeing the baron packs after transport they are way looser. Bandit packs sag a bit when unloaded with standard forks, would not like to see the sag on baron packs but they seem to work with standard forks too.

I use a 4-spear set of forks to handle the packs, a spear aligns with every second bale giving excellent support to the bundle. With spears set like this, I can slide under a pack or spear through.

Have even dropped a bundle off my pickup flat bed when going around a corner. Yeah, I know, more "Wall of Shame" material. One pack stayed on, the other jumped off to take a look at the side of the road.

Good news was, I went back, cut the straps and hand loaded the 21 bales on, not a string broken, and took them to customer.

Interesting doing some small deliveries by pickup. Usually had to break the pack to unload. Can feel a rash coming on just thinking about handling loose bales. Couple of customers though, I just pull up in their shed and push the pack off the side, and it lands upside down next to the pickup and I collect the money and drive away. Unloading done.

Have educated some collect customers to back their transport into their shed, tie chain or rope onto the bundle and secure it to a strong shed post down low (floor level) and drive away. They say a few strings pop sometimes but after all they are going to mistreat my neat idiot cubes and cut the strings anyway. The bales might not be wrapped but the customers are wrapt (couldn't resist that one) and do not want to again load and unload loose frustration bricks any more. I load with FEL, they unload using Isaac Newton and the first time they touch a bale is when feeding it out.

Bandit packs could be stacked 4 bundles high (shed permitting) with a tele handler and still be reasonably stable stack because of a minimum bale length of 37 inches, but effectively need to allow 39 inches on average. A baron has a maximum of 34 inch bale so in reality more like 33 inches. I would not like standing next to a 3-high stack of those packs if baled a little looser. Baron means you can get more bales, because you can bundle looser bales and they are shorter. Bales for a bandit have to be tighter for effective handling. I do not hold back pointing out to customers that they may be getting tighter and definitely longer bales than they would in a Baron bundle. Just a point of difference for marketing.

With those benefits and my convincing irresistible charm, customers soon convert to my way of thinking.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lmao......the vacation do you good my friend


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well I have been a bit hesitant to reply to this topic since I didn't want my recent frustrations with my bale bandit to influence anyone in the wrong way. To be more clear the main thing that I'm having so much heartache over is the pickup attachment on the bandit.....to be frank the pickup attachment is absolute junk and doesn't work properly. Th rest of the bandit is okay but you have to be willing to communicate over the phone with GFC to troubleshoot problem in the initial learning cure which is pretty steep. The other biggest problem with the bandit for me is in small fields it is difficult to be able to maneuver well with the bandit behind the baler which is the reason I need the pickup to work. I hay a lot of small odd shaped fields 5 acres and less that most people wouldn't fool with so this might not be a problem for most. I think I would be quite happy with the bandit if I could pull it behind the baler. I have been thinking very seriously about selling the bandit and trying either an accumulator or bale wagon but every time I think about that then I remember how great it is to handle the bundle back out of the barn and load customers so quickly without touching a bale.

Before buying the bandit I was debating heavily between the bandit or baron. I actually liked a few things better about the baron but I happened to buy a load of hay that was in baron bundles and handling them was a problem. Since the twine is on the outside of the baron bundle instead of compressing into the bundle like the steel strapping of the bandit is you could not pick them up from underneath with a set of forks without busting the twine that hold the bundle together. The bundles were loose enough that after handling them a couple times they were ready to fall apart and when you speared them the bottom layer of bales would sag at least a foot. Also the little bitty 32-33 inch bales are not what my market wants.

As far as bandit/baron vs self propelled bale wagon I don't know. Having never used a bale wagon but from what I hear I think that actually getting the hay out of the field would be faster with a bale wagon since you don't have to load the bundles on to a trailer and back off at the barn......where the bandit really shines is for handling the bundles back out of the barn. Having that said if you are not planning on pulling behind the baler I would not even consider the bandit because the pickup is worthless. Can't say anything about the baron pickup because I haven't see one in action.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Well I have been a bit hesitant to reply to this topic since I didn't want my recent frustrations with my bale bandit to influence anyone in the wrong way. To be more clear the main thing that I'm having so much heartache over is the pickup attachment on the bandit.....to be frank the pickup attachment is absolute junk and doesn't work properly. Th rest of the bandit is okay but you have to be willing to communicate over the phone with GFC to troubleshoot problem in the initial learning cure which is pretty steep. The other biggest problem with the bandit for me is in small fields it is difficult to be able to maneuver well with the bandit behind the baler which is the reason I need the pickup to work. I hay a lot of small odd shaped fields 5 acres and less that most people wouldn't fool with so this might not be a problem for most. I think I would be quite happy with the bandit if I could pull it behind the baler. I have been thinking very seriously about selling the bandit and trying either an accumulator or bale wagon but every time I think about that then I remember how great it is to handle the bundle back out of the barn and load customers so quickly without touching a bale.
> Before buying the bandit I was debating heavily between the bandit or baron. I actually liked a few things better about the baron but I happened to buy a load of hay that was in baron bundles and handling them was a problem. Since the twine is on the outside of the baron bundle instead of compressing into the bundle like the steel strapping of the bandit is you could not pick them up from underneath with a set of forks without busting the twine that hold the bundle together. The bundles were loose enough that after handling them a couple times they were ready to fall apart and when you speared them the bottom layer of bales would sag at least a foot. Also the little bitty 32-33 inch bales are not what my market wants.
> As far as bandit/baron vs self propelled bale wagon I don't know. Having never used a bale wagon but from what I hear I think that actually getting the hay out of the field would be faster with a bale wagon since you don't have to load the bundles on to a trailer and back off at the barn......where the bandit really shines is for handling the bundles back out of the barn. Having that said if you are not planning on pulling behind the baler I would not even consider the bandit because the pickup is worthless. Can't say anything about the baron pickup because I haven't see one in action.


Just curious if you have talked to Owen about the problems with the pickup? Any tips, tricks, or advice from them?


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Just curious if you have talked to Owen about the problems with the pickup? Any tips, tricks, or advice from them?


 Yes, I have......didn't get too much of a response except for try using heavier baling twine which didn't help. He said that since the pickup chain has metal slats welded between the ears of the chain it shouldn't cut the twine if it contacts it but it does. This is the only problem that they haven't been extremely helpful with. I'm going to mention it again to them and see if I get anywhere else with the issue. Been trying to modify the pickup to get it to work but haven't been successful yet but am going to try something else and see if it won't work in a few weeks when I have more hay ready.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Yes, I have......didn't get too much of a response except for try using heavier baling twine which didn't help. He said that since the pickup chain has metal slats welded between the ears of the chain it shouldn't cut the twine if it contacts it but it does. This is the only problem that they haven't been extremely helpful with. I'm going to mention it again to them and see if I get anywhere else with the issue. Been trying to modify the pickup to get it to work but haven't been successful yet but am going to try something else and see if it won't work in a few weeks when I have more hay ready.


Forget the pickup. I can pull a baler with wagons in some corner fields that are a little under two acres. There shouldn't be any reason you can't get good at operating a baler and bandit in a five acre field.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Forget the pickup. I can pull a baler with wagons in some corner fields that are a little under two acres. There shouldn't be any reason you can't get good at operating a baler and bandit in a five acre field.


 The five acre fields aren't too bad but the 1-3 acre fields are, especially if there are odd shaped which most are. What happens is when going around turns the bales are coming out of the baler when the bandit is turning and the bales get into a pinch point with the chute of the bandit and break. When you add hills and odd shapes to these little fields it makes matters worse. Hills and turning don't work well with the bandit behind the baler.....it has jackknifed into the twine box of the baler twice now. Long gentle turns only which is hard to do in a small field and get anything done in a timely fashion.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Bale wagons hate hills and they also hate balers making sharp turns in a filed ( baler knocks the bale over)


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

We baled a field close to barn tonight less than a 1/4 mile from storage shed. You can't beat a bale wagon for this. earlier in the day I was baling 12 miles from storage . Not as easy.


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Bundles do no fit above horse stalls and don't fit in most race tracks at least in our area. Only way thats going to work is new barns but i don't see that happening but its ok get paid accordingly. Also most pipe line guys don't like them because how trailers get dropped on mountain sides and they carry bales down all the hills. No doubt great way to handle but the markets that im in just wont work yet. Maybe in time.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

"Convincing irresistible charm" is that how you acquired Mrs coondle?

Hayden, the small field thing is tough, no doubt. If you didn't pull wagons behind the baler in the past I can see the bandit train being intimidating. All I can tell you is it will become easier as you gain experience. It's a lot of money, around $1000, and work to add trailer brakes but it is nice.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

SVFHAY said:


> "Convincing irresistible charm" is that how you acquired Mrs coondle?
> Hayden, the small field thing is tough, no doubt. If you didn't pull wagons behind the baler in the past I can see the bandit train being intimidating. All I can tell you is it will become easier as you gain experience. It's a lot of money, around $1000, and work to add trailer brakes but it is nice.


 Can you give me some info on what all it would involve to add brakes? If I'm going to pull the bandit behind the baler I think that brakes are going to be a necessity. Never pulled a wagon behind a baler. When baling in small fields around turns what would you suggest I could do to stop the bales from getting into a pinch point and breaking? The way I have gotten by the rest of this hay season with the pickup not working is pulling the bandit by itself and having help place the bales onto the horizontal elevator......not fun.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Haybaskets behind the baler have the same problem as you're having. The Kuhn's accumulators get around this with their corner kit, I wonder is something similar could be made for the bandit?

The baskets don't like point corners, we pulled flat wagons behind the balers before the baskets but the flats can turn a heck of a lot sharper without troubles. Worst case the crew drops a bale.

Thrower wagons can make a pretty sharp turn but you have to get the speed and aim just right or it will toss over the side, at least it doesn't stop you up.


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## Osman1 (Nov 30, 2014)

Farmercline don't feel alone on your pickup problem I to was having the same pickup/bale breakage problem i was gonna work on a fix this winter just no time now. My fix was going to be something similar to the baron pickup belt some say why not buy a baron to start with? Well I have seen baron bundles explode almost on their own just because of the loose packs and bad handling and I like to bale/sale rectangular bales instead of square bales, besides my 200 is a running machine minus the pickup attachments do you think a belt instead of chain on pickup would solve the problem?


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> "Convincing irresistible charm" is that how you acquired Mrs coondle?


I would like to think so, but at that time it may have been mixed with the exuberance of youth. Not that far short of 50 years ago so the youth part is only faintly visible in the rear view mirror of life.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

In regard to the bandit pickups, I have a 100 series with an aftermarket chain-pickup that works very well. Do not recall it ever breaking a string.

I will pull it out of the shed in a few days and get some clear photos of the pickup and post them. At present the Bandit is in the back of the shed with other machines blocking clear camera angles.

Although my pickup is not ground driven, but by the same hydraulic motor that drives the horizontal elevator, its proportions are similar to small square pickups for working alongside flat bed trucks. NH made a ground driven loader for alongside a truck with the model designation 471.

I believe there is a fix for your 200 series pickups and will post some drawings showing my thoughts which should modify the 200 series pickup to give similar proportions at the critical point of initial contact with the pickup chain, which it seems is where the problems occur.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> Can you give me some info on what all it would involve to add brakes? If I'm going to pull the bandit behind the baler I think that brakes are going to be a necessity. Never pulled a wagon behind a baler. When baling in small fields around turns what would you suggest I could do to stop the bales from getting into a pinch point and breaking? The way I have gotten by the rest of this hay season with the pickup not working is pulling the bandit by itself and having help place the bales onto the horizontal elevator......not fun.


 here is a simple fix if your problem is between baler and bandit chute, I have seen better ones but not cheaper.

The brakes I have are electric trailer brakes. Basically it's a 8 bolt trailer axle stubs that are the same diameter as existing model 100 axle. Had to have 2 sleeves machined and welded the whole deal up. Yours may be larger diameter making things a little simpler. Ad a pair of 16" dual wheels & tires ( used ) a brake controller and some wire and downhill turns are no problem. I can be more specific if your serious.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> here is a simple fix if your problem is between baler and bandit chute, I have seen better ones but not cheaper.


Like that a lot. Really neat fix. Hate to overcapitalise, although looks a new strap so that is pushing the envelope in capital input 

Just another example of farmer ingenuity providing a simple fix, well done!

Maybe should get a few farmers to manage healthcare and get those out-of-sight out-of-control costs down.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

SVFHAY said:


> here is a simple fix if your problem is between baler and bandit chute, I have seen better ones but not cheaper.
> The brakes I have are electric trailer brakes. Basically it's a 8 bolt trailer axle stubs that are the same diameter as existing model 100 axle. Had to have 2 sleeves machined and welded the whole deal up. Yours may be larger diameter making things a little simpler. Ad a pair of 16" dual wheels & tires ( used ) a brake controller and some wire and downhill turns are no problem. I can be more specific if your serious.


 For now I'm going to wait and make sure that I'm going to keep the bandit before I add brakes. Still a bit undecided whether I'm going to stick with it or try something else.....but gosh if the bundle isn't great to handle once it's made. If I decide to keep it brakes will definatly be a this winter project.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

FarmerCline said:


> For now I'm going to wait and make sure that I'm going to keep the bandit before I add brakes. Still a bit undecided whether I'm going to stick with it or try something else.....but gosh if the bundle isn't great to handle once it's made. If I decide to keep it brakes will definatly be a this winter project.


You have to make the call on the best machine for your situation. One thing I'm confident of is a pull type stackwagon in hills is not a great deal either, been there. Now open flat country next to a big barn...


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Another problem I have is half of my storage is old bank barns and I would hate to cut bundles and send up an elevator to stack. We use the pull type stacker for these barns and or trailers that were loaded from field. Might be cheaper to build a cover all building at the one bigger rented farm and continue to use stack wagons and grappler.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Yeah remote building makes a lot of sense for any system. Cover all would be removable if situation changes. I would not recommend bundles if you are sure many have to be broken down to store.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

SVFHAY said:


> You have to make the call on the best machine for your situation. One thing I'm confident of is a pull type stackwagon in hills is not a great deal either, been there. Now open flat country next to a big barn...


 Yeah, a pull type bale wagon won't work for sure because of the distance between the fields and barn and I have heard they don't preform well on hills as well. I would like to have a self propelled bale wagon but I guess they won't work on the hills either. It looks like a Kuhns accumulator would be my other option if I decide the bandit isn't for me. It looks the Kuhns would be much easier to maneuver behind the baler and much simpler......the downside is I will have loose bales instead of bundles.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> ......the downside is I will have loose bales instead of bundles.


That is a inconvenience.....but just think, you can sell your bandit and buy a accumulator, a tie grapple, and a good used late model skidsteer with AC and have money left over! And you will learn to absolutely love a skidsteer....it's just a incredibly handy machine on the farm.

When Ralph Moses sold his bale wagon because he did not like how it performed on hills in Illinois....I knew then that I sure did not want one in East Tennessee.

Regards, Mike


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