# MDP Haying 2018



## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I thought I would stop in and give a quick update. We are planning on cutting end of next week if the weather presents an opportunity. I am located in West Michigan and we have been getting regular spring showers. Unfortunately the property I hay is low with clay based soils which means it takes longer for the ground to dry after rains. The fields are definitely ready to be cut as the orchard grass is forming seed heads already. I am optimistic that we will get it cut next week. Other than that the equipment is looking good so far! And I am looking to build on my experience and have a better year than last!

I will take pictures and post links to videos I upload to youtube. I do not have a shadow of a doubt that I will have more questions and issues that come up! I am extremely grateful to everyone on HT that has contributed to my progress. I literally knew nothing when I started! I am happy to say that I at least have a shaky foundation to build on now thanks to you all! I look forward to learning more from you all this year.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I thought you had disappeared, pony! Just a tip, you may want edit the title of your post so that it’s obviously specific to you because I recall last year people were accidentally posting on your individual thread instead of the broader general yearly thread.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Can I get some help changing a thread title or do I need a moderator to do it? If a mod has to do it "MDP 2018 Haying" works for me.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

You can edit it yourself when you chose edit post.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP, long range forecast looks like we will have favorable conditions, but then again the old Michigan saying "if you don't like the weather, just wait a bit, it will change" comes to mind.

I'm looking at getting a start on things this coming Monday as of right now (after Sunday's forecasted rain, which I could use in MY area).

Hopefully, you remember everything you learned last year and continue to build upon your knowledge. By now, you should have everything greased, checked, oiled and ready to go (like an Indy 500 race car ). Last year's scare with the M and low oil, was too close for comfort level for me anyhow. 

As you are well aware of the learning curve to making hay is steep, just don't stop learning would be my best advice.

Larry

PS earlier this week Vol (Mike) posted this weather site, in case you missed it. I use about every weather forecast site available (including weather.gov and AWIS), but thought I pass this one on incase your missed his post.

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/87714-agrible-forecasts/


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## MrLuggs (Dec 14, 2015)

Yeah, looks like sunday afternoon/monday for me too.


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## Ranger518 (Aug 6, 2016)

Glad you're back. Hope that new baby and famley is doing well.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

So is it going to be the Father-in-law's Farmall M doing the work again this year? Or did you end up with the Allis D17 series III from your Dad?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Ranger518 said:


> Glad you're back. Hope that new baby and famley is doing well.


The kids are doing great thanks for asking. My wife is excited because she will be able to help me more this year. The kids will be out in the field "helping" as they like to be involved.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

rankrank1 said:


> So is it going to be the Father-in-law's Farmall M doing the work again this year? Or did you end up with the Allis D17 series III from your Dad?


The D17 is running great right now however we don't have a good way to get it over to my house. As of now the M will be doing the work until we can rent a trailer to get it to my place. I live about 26 miles from my Dad.


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## Ranger518 (Aug 6, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> The D17 is running great right now however we don't have a good way to get it over to my house. As of now the M will be doing the work until we can rent a trailer to get it to my place. I live about 26 miles from my Dad.


26 miles that's not to bad any back roads? You could just take a day and drive it over.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

It's starting to look like I wont be able to have the field cut this weekend. The forecast changed and is calling for 30% 40% and 40% chance of rain on Thurs - Sat


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Ranger518 said:


> 26 miles that's not to bad any back roads? You could just take a day and drive it over.


2.5 hours should do it.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

8350HiTech said:


> 2.5 hours should do it.


I was thinking more like 2 hours, here in Michigan a lot of folks just ignore stop signs.  I would choose a non-rainy or snowy day though.

Larry

PS MDP, I got a trailer you can borrow, except the two round trips might cost a small fortune in fuel.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

r82230 said:


> I was thinking more like 2 hours, here in Michigan a lot of folks just ignore stop signs.  I would choose a non-rainy or snowy day though.
> 
> Larry
> 
> PS MDP, I got a trailer you can borrow, except the two round trips might cost a small fortune in fuel.


I actually went to tractor data to get the top speed (11.9 mph  ) and then allowed a little extra just in case someone else was in the intersections forcing a stop here or there.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Na, I think it's orange in color, just like our state's summer trees. We have so many orange trees (barrels) out in Michigan right now, people just drive around them out of habit. 

Seems we sometimes only have two seasons - orange barrel and winter (we can seem to hardly wait for either of them too). One of my questions is where do all those orange things go in the winter?? :huh:

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Alright this is my first question of the 2018 haying season! On my baler NH 66 the oil bath "i think that's what it's called" has a drain plug, fill to plug, and a fill plug at the top. It seems the tiny fill to plug is made of very soft metal... I cannot seem to get it off without stripping the corners. So I don't know if the oil level is where it should be. I put a stick down in it and there is about 2-3 inches of oil in the bottom. I added more just to be safe.

My question is could I do any harm if it's over full? I don't know if it's even worth trying to get that fill to plug off or if I should just leave it as is and just make sure I have oil in the bottom.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Vice grips. GOOD vice grips.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I gave it my best shot with my best pair


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Your terms are making me think you have a engine with oil bath air cleaner? DO NOT OVER FILL a oil bath air cleaner. Oil can be sucked out of air cleaner engine uses it as fuel and runs away.

Now if it is not on a engine probably not a problem to be over full. Ok reread so are we talking a gear box?


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## notmydaytoday (Sep 16, 2016)

I would try not to over fill as the oil will expand when it gets hot so you it needs some room for that. So for me I would try the drain plug some more maybe use a wrench on it while taping on the plug at same time.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

We are having a nasty rainy day here in West Michigan. I'll run out to the barn and snap a picture of what I'm talking about. I'll mess with getting the fill to plug off but I don't really want to mutilate the plug

Hopefully the weather shows me some mercy so I can get first cutting done.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I am day dreaming about buying a haybine or discbine or mower conditioner. I know the very basics about them but I am looking in the $2,000 range. I am going to list some that I am finding in my price range and any opinions or advice would be great. I am just window shopping but it's good to learn about the equipment.

New Holland 479

New Holland 472

New Holland 499

Or any other recommendation in my price range and that would work well with the small fields I have.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I am day dreaming about buying a haybine or discbine or mower conditioner. I know the very basics about them but I am looking in the $2,000 range. I am going to list some that I am finding in my price range and any opinions or advice would be great. I am just window shopping but it's good to learn about the equipment.
> 
> New Holland 479
> New Holland 472
> ...


In that range and with well used equipment, the condition is going to matter far more than the model for all you'll be using it for.


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## MrLuggs (Dec 14, 2015)

Keep your eyes on local consignment auctions, you might be able to pick up a gen1 5209 for cheap - like this..


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MrLuggs said:


> Keep your eyes on local consignment auctions, you might be able to pick up a gen1 5209 for cheap - like this..


What's he going to pull that with?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

All I have right now is my father in laws Farmall M however, I have plans to buy some type of medium sized modern tractor... I have a lot to learn about tractors to make sure I get something that can do what I want but that isn't capable of more than I can or need to do.

I am still years away from buying said tractor but it's good to plan and dream. I'd like to buy a new mower before I will be able to buy a tractor... so in that case an M would need to be able to power it.

I was thinking the same thing about the condition... with older equipment that probably matters more than a preferred model or brand.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

1. https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/2003/new-holland/tc33d/19483574

2. https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/2003/new-holland/tc33d/19483574

3. https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/2006/new-holland/tc30/19493405

4. https://www.machinerypete.com/details/40-99-hp/new-holland/boomer-40/19465699

Would all or any of these run a haybine and/or pto powered square baler? I am looking for something versatile that can do a number of small duty jobs but still be adequate for running hay equipment. If I am way off base I'd have to hear suggestions. I'm thinking a bucket would be nice. I'd like to run a snow blower eventually. Otherwise for those of you who don't know I am a hobby farmer that likes to do projects outside and hay a small piece of property. I would like the tractor to be able to power a haybine/square baler.

I am just window shopping so I am not looking to make a purchase right now however I consider our conversations as part of my education. I really appreciate the time anyone takes to respond to my messages.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

This one looks nice but I'm not sure if it's big enough.

https://www.machinerypete.com/details/under-40-hp/2015/john-deere/3038e/19522665


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Dream about a slightly older and 50-70 hp tractor. Those compacts aren't designed for what you're talking about.

Why won't you be mowing with your Allis? Still just a transport issue?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Ok I am dream older hahaha. I just want to be able to put a snow blower on it. The bucket would be nice for small jobs but not necessarily a requirement. I would like it if we could get my dad's Allis over to my place. We just need to figure out how to get it here... I think I remember him saying the tires aren't great or something.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

I used a D-17 to run the square baler for many years the high/low hand clutch worked well why not try to find a AC-185 or 180 they are very good haying tractors and can be bought in $5000 to $10,000 range. For that matter there are a lot of older 50 HP to 100 HP tractors around less then $15000. Those 30 hp compacts are worthless for anything other then mowing the lawn. I also have a 5055 JD would be a better haying tractor then those and you can find one of then for the same money.

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/24689081/1976-allis-chalmers-185

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/26055003/1977-ford-7600

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/25199961/1987-ford-6610

https://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/25818183/john-deere-2640


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Good stuff to know Beav thanks! I wasn't sure if the newer tractors had more attachments or easier to use attachments. I have no problem with buying an older tractor that has more HP. I just want to make sure if can do what I need it to do.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Ok I am dream older hahaha. I just want to be able to put a snow blower on it. The bucket would be nice for small jobs but not necessarily a requirement. I would like it if we could get my dad's Allis over to my place. We just need to figure out how to get it here... I think I remember him saying the tires aren't great or something.


To be clear, I meant dream older because of your dollars will get you something that will actually run farm implements instead of spending 15k on the toys listed.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Good stuff to know Beav thanks! I wasn't sure if the newer tractors had more attachments or easier to use attachments. I have no problem with buying an older tractor that has more HP. I just want to make sure if can do what I need it to do.


the new stuff has more electronics to go bad, they have better hydraulics and transmissions but to raise and lower a haybine head those old tractors have plenty of hydraulics. you could run a 9' haybine with any of these tractors. You would need to go to 90 hp or more for diskbine IMO


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Beav said:


> the new stuff has more electronics to go bad, they have better hydraulics and transmissions but to raise and lower a haybine head those old tractors have plenty of hydraulics. you could run a 9' haybine with any of these tractors. You would need to go to 90 hp or more for diskbine IMO


He has small fields and flat ground so I'd think 70 would be closer to the minimum. Either way a nice sickle machine is probably the way to go.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

8350HiTech said:


> Dream about a slightly older and 50-70 hp tractor. Those compacts aren't designed for what you're talking about.
> 
> Why won't you be mowing with your Allis? Still just a transport issue?


Plus they're a lot more durable...

We farmed for YEARS with a 71 Ford 5000 row-crop and an 81 Ford 6600 AP... good solid tractors, easy to fix, very durable, and plenty of power for smaller farms... We did finally "upgrade" in the late 90's to a pair of new 5610S's, a Ford and New Holland (72 engine horse).

They'll do anything you need to do MDP, without breaking the bank...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Good stuff to know Beav thanks! I wasn't sure if the newer tractors had more attachments or easier to use attachments. I have no problem with buying an older tractor that has more HP. I just want to make sure if can do what I need it to do.


Implements are implements... 3PH stuff fits pretty much anything (so long as it has a 3 point hitch, not some "Eagle Hitch" or old IH 2 point hitch or other weird stuff like that). We used implements by about every mainline and shortline manufacturer you can think of over the years. So long as it's sized "appropriately" for the tractor, it'll handle it. We farmed with four row stuff (but it could handle 6 row, but 8 row would be too much). On the hay side, we use a 7.5 foot Zweegers drum mower that folds straight back, which puts the weight WAY back behind the tractor, but they handle it fine (a regular vertical-folding 3 point hitch disk mower would work much better). It would also handle pretty much any pull-type mower up to 10 feet just fine (disk-bine with roller conditioners you'd want to stay down around 9 feet at the most, flail conditioners maybe a little easier to pull). They'd handle any rake you want to mess with, and we bale 5x5.5 to 5x6 rounds, and it handles it just fine.

The hardest "attachment" to match up is a front end loader... I've got an EZ-ON 70 on one tractor and I'm always looking for a loader for the other one that's reasonably priced (used).

Later! OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

8350HiTech said:


> He has small fields and flat ground so I'd think 70 would be closer to the minimum. Either way a nice sickle machine is probably the way to go.


I have no problem using my sickle bar... however.... I have a hard time in thick damp at the bottom orchard grass. I have no problem in less dense and more dry grass. I replaced all the guards and put on a new bar/blades. I need to figure out a proper speed...If I go to fast it plugs all the time.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I have no problem using my sickle bar... however.... I have a hard time in thick damp at the bottom orchard grass. I have no problem in less dense and more dry grass. I replaced all the guards and put on a new bar/blades. I need to figure out a proper speed...If I go to fast it plugs all the time.


Sickle as in not a disc mower. You could still upgrade to a sickle mower conditioner (haybine).


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking a haybine. I need to do some research on them to to figure out what they cost and what to look for when buying an older unit. Also it sounds like the HP requirement is 50+ from what I'm gathering.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

This is the haybine I'd love to have. The guy said he paid around $2,000 for it which is about max of what I'd want to spend.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Haybine or mower conditioner is a fine goal, but there are even more moving parts on one of them to maintain and it still uses a sickle system to cut the hay but you do admittingly gain conditioning. That sickle on the haybine is still gonna need all the same fine adjustments in order to cut as the sickle mower you have now.

Fact is if you are not cutting 3rd gear at wide open throttle on that M then that sickle u already have is still not adjusted right. New parts by themselves are meaningiless without proper adjustment on a sickle. Other than your sickle sections which were obviously shot, you likely replaced many other parts that were likely good enough with some tuning and adjustment.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

The only parts I replaced were guards and blades... I don't believe I replaced anything that was good... Everything I took off was totally shot. I worked really hard to make difficult adjustments raising and lower or advancing parts forward or backwards... adjusting angles... and adjusting the register as much as possible.... I don't know what else I can do with the amount of knowledge I have.

I thought I was to the point where it was the grass density, moisture, and grass length that was causing me issues... If I should still be able to go that fast no matter the other variables then I must be doing something wrong. I have had excellent success with medium length grass that was not as dense and more dry than the orchard grass I have trouble with.


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## Leeroy (Aug 19, 2013)

Pretty sure my old NH 477 only requires 30HP.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm raking today after work and baling once the dew rises tomorrow. Here's to a smooth day tomorrow!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Things didn't go so well... I sheared the needles after 30 squares... I had to pay the neighbor $11 per round bale which came to $506 of unplanned expense. I now have 46 5x4 netted round bales on the field... from just 6 acres of land. I am trying to sell as many as possible to recoup some funds. We only need 26 rounds to make it through the winter and here I am with 46 in the field. Another issues we are dealing with is that we do not have the means to load customers!!!

The only option was to round bale... we searched high and low for someone to square bale and it just wasn't happening on short notice... I'll also mention that we get a decent amount of rain the following day on Saturday.... we would have had a mess on our hands if we didn't get it baled.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

That sounds like a spectacular yield or light bales, hopefully the former. Do you have any neighbors who would have a loader you can use?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

8350HiTech said:


> That sounds like a spectacular yield or light bales, hopefully the former. Do you have any neighbors who would have a loader you can use?


The baler he used is of the newer variety new holland brand. The bales look fantastic to me! I do know that when he came to check out the field he asked me to double up already large windrows. I was making mountains of hay!!! I do have a neighbor who is generous enough to come and help me out... but I cannot possibly bother him every time I sell a handful of bales... I'm trying to coordinate a pickup day so I can have him load several customers on the same day... but that is proving difficult... most people need them NOW and none of them want to wait. We will figure something out! In the mean time they are getting weathered hopefully I wont have to drop the price to much.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

On your tractor search / size, lookup HayJosh's system (I think it's a Ford 4000 or 5000, with a NH 477 mow/conditioner, he just got this winter).

The older tractor will serve you better, than any color of those new 'compact' tractor you are looking at. They maybe advertised at 30-40 HP and can lift 2,000#, but not at a SAFE operation. You are probably going to end up with some RB now and again (rain in Michigan happens). Those compact tractor will pick up a RB, but you won't be moving it SAFELY. Those compact tractors may pull and run your baler / pull your loaded hay wagon/trailer, but won't be able to STOP them SAFELY if needed.

To your round bales, hope you get them moved off the field soon (unlike last year's mess, where you had to drive on 2nd cutting to move them). If nothing else is available roll them on to a 'stone boat' (old car hood would also work), using the Farmall (couple of hooks on one side, rope over top of bale pulling on to stone boat, roll them off same way). At least you will have them off the field and in one location.

Selling them with no means to load??? Difficult, unless you find a close farmer that takes them all.

Your yield is outstanding, but the numbers don't seem quite right. I go with 6 acres (let's even call it 7 acres for the benefit of doubt). You got 30 SS bales (using your last year's bale weight of 35#), that's 1050#. 46 bales times 750# (light bales I would say) equals 34,500#, so total weight 35,050#. Divided by 7 (acres) equals 5,078# an acres (2.5 tons per acre).

You just matched a MSU study, where they totaled 7.3 and 7.9 tons over three years (2.4 & 2.6 tons per A , different fertilizer used), that's outstanding!!!

Now if you used heavier RB weights, say 950# each, you get 43,700# plus 1,050# equals 44,750# divided by 7 (acres), you yield is 3.19 tons an acre. IDK, with OG, if I could believe the numbers.  And if I used 6 acres they would even be more off the charts.

Can you sell the RB to the guy who baled them?

If you were only closer, I'd bring my scales so you could weight some of those RB. That's where last year I brought you a couple of dense ss bales for comparison purposes. If you are not weighing, your guessing.

The guy I deliver to last week ask about the weight of my bales, I told him that I'm positive the last ones weigh a lot more than the first few.  Because I hadn't weigh them individually. II did weigh the whole load before delivery, it came in at 31,360#, I just don't know my tare weigh, YET (and yes it was on an empty stomach ).

Larry


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> The baler he used is of the newer variety new holland brand. The bales look fantastic to me! I do know that when he came to check out the field he asked me to double up already large windrows. I was making mountains of hay!!!


Now you're making me guess some more. In my own hay (here is a picture of the height of the OG, the alfalfa is shorter and lodged)





  








OG High




__
r82230


__
Jun 18, 2018








I think the Discbine (NH7220) is about 4' - 4.5' tall (operating position) and this hay came off at about 1.875 tons an acre (which is above average for me). Raked in a single windrow (about 9' or less of hay), I SS baled at 3.5MPH and RB at 8-10MPH. I could make a 5' x 5', 1,250# in a little less than 2 minutes. In really good going 1 minute & 40 seconds from start of bale to start of new bale (time includes wrapping/ejection/closing time).

I'm leaning more towards light weight bales. 

Larry


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

8350HiTech said:


> That sounds like a spectacular yield or light bales, hopefully the former. Do you have any neighbors who would have a loader you can use?


Plus you want them off the field... otherwise you really have a mess with dead spots where the bales sit and they weather a lot worse sitting out on the field than moved up in a row stacked end to end on dry ground (at least).

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

r82230 said:


> On your tractor search / size, lookup HayJosh's system (I think it's a Ford 4000 or 5000, with a NH 477 mow/conditioner, he just got this winter).
> 
> The older tractor will serve you better, than any color of those new 'compact' tractor you are looking at. They maybe advertised at 30-40 HP and can lift 2,000#, but not at a SAFE operation. You are probably going to end up with some RB now and again (rain in Michigan happens). Those compact tractor will pick up a RB, but you won't be moving it SAFELY. Those compact tractors may pull and run your baler / pull your loaded hay wagon/trailer, but won't be able to STOP them SAFELY if needed.
> 
> ...


Agree completely...

A Ford 4000-5000 or a 6600 would serve you VERY well... I know, we farmed with them for decades and still run a pair of 5610S's (basically the same tractor).

Later! OL J R


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Good Morning Guys,

I have attached 2 photos that show my property. The largest chuck is 3.5 acres and the second largest is 1.5 with all the rest being under 1 acre pieces. The 1 acre piece (longest rectangle) and the square piece to the left are up for sale by my wife's aunt and uncle. They want a ton of money so it may not even sell for a while 

Anyways I hayed 6.87 acres first cutting. I would agree with Larry that the 30 square bales I got off before my break down are probably 40 lbs at best. The round bales are very solid 5x4 and were baled by an experienced farmer with a nice new holland round baler. I can't attest to the "actual" weight of them but I would have to assume they are at worst average for that size and shape bale. I do know we had ALOT of hay on the field when I was raking it up. I just thought I'd try to give a bit more insight into what I have going on.

I will be looking into the Ford 4000, 5000 suggestions and seeing what I can find out.

Thanks!


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Is the spring missing on the needle stop safety? It should have protected your needles.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Rank I will definitely look into that. I was not aware of such a spring. I will look in my manual and trying to find where that is located and see what I can find. Thanks for the info. In the mean time I will probably have the needles welded again. I may try and find another pair but the last time I looked a while back I remember them being very expensive.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I may try and find another pair but the last time I looked a while back I remember them being very expensive.


So is the 'cost' of doing RB instead of SS bales. I sell the same volume of material for more than twice the money in MY area. I know I have spare parts on hand for some brand new equipment, let alone older equipment.

And yep, tracking down what caused the problem would be high on my 'to do list'.

Larry


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Rank I will definitely look into that. I was not aware of such a spring. I will look in my manual and trying to find where that is located and see what I can find. Thanks for the info. In the mean time I will probably have the needles welded again. I may try and find another pair but the last time I looked a while back I remember them being very expensive.


I might just happen to know where a set is for a 66.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

glasswrongsize said:


> I might just happen to know where a set is for a 66.


I'm listening.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I'm listening.


I will try to get looked at in next couple days... been parked in woods 20 years or so at uncle's. WIll have to see if needles still on it and if he will part company with them. IIRC the needles on the 66 very many (if any) other models.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

That sounds great! Thanks for taking the time to check into it for me.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I took the needles off yesterday. I'm having the wife drop them off at the welders shop so he can put them back together. Hopefully he can get this set at the right angle. The last time he welded them one was slightly off and it kept hitting after we installed it. Then we compared the welded one to the one that was good and it was offset... I also discovered something else that was damaged. I'll take some pictures because I can't really explain it that well otherwise.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Well after the first cutting issue it's been pretty quiet on the hay front. My Dad and I took the torch to the bent frame section and bent it back as well as a couple other parts that were twisted. My Wife is going to drop off the needles at the welders shop on Monday and have them welded back together. Once we get the needles back we can work on getting them put back on and in the correct location. After that the task of making sure all the moving parts clear and are in correct timing begins. If we keep at it we should be good to go by 2nd cutting.

I've been noticing that guys around my area are already doing 2nd cutting. I'm assuming these are the guys that were able to cut around memorial day which I was not one of those guys. I've started the process of lining up back-ups round and square alike in the case my baler doesn't come through for me. This at least helps with the panic that sets in when your baler goes down in the field. I shelled out some cash for first cutting and I'm really hoping to keep that down for 2nd cutting. If I had a way to move rounds it would save me some cash... Need a different tractor and a spear! I'll update if I run into more issues or once 2nd cutting comes around.

It's been dry in our area (west michigan) I hope you all are having more rain and are having a successful haying season.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Well after the first cutting issue it's been pretty quiet on the hay front. My Dad and I took the torch to the bent frame section and bent it back as well as a couple other parts that were twisted. My Wife is going to drop off the needles at the welders shop on Monday and have them welded back together. Once we get the needles back we can work on getting them put back on and in the correct location. After that the task of making sure all the moving parts clear and are in correct timing begins. If we keep at it we should be good to go by 2nd cutting.
> 
> I've been noticing that guys around my area are already doing 2nd cutting. I'm assuming these are the guys that were able to cut around memorial day which I was not one of those guys. I've started the process of lining up back-ups round and square alike in the case my baler doesn't come through for me. This at least helps with the panic that sets in when your baler goes down in the field. I shelled out some cash for first cutting and I'm really hoping to keep that down for 2nd cutting. If I had a way to move rounds it would save me some cash... Need a different tractor and a spear! I'll update if I run into more issues or once 2nd cutting comes around.
> 
> It's been dry in our area (west michigan) I hope you all are having more rain and are having a successful haying season.


If you had your Allis there you could use a homemade three point hitch spear.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

That Allis D17 Series II mutt should move a round bale with a 3 point bale spear rather handily I would think.

Alternatively, The ole Farmall M just might do it too if it had an add on 3 Point hitch installed on it. I do know I would try it with my ole Farmall M for sure. I have installed 3 points add on kits on both my ole Farmall h and my ole Farmall m are they make the tractors much more handier than they were without it. The Farmall belly pump would need to be in decent shape and a big cylinder used instead of a puny cylinder ram but I think my M could do it decently with care. I do not think my ole h would do it very well though as the belly pump is weaker on it, plus the h tractor is lighter and those trikes do begin to get light in the front end with too much of 3 point weight even if it could.

If you decide to add a 3 point to the m make sure you get the brand that retains the horseshoe drawbar as you need that for your sickle mower mounting although it is possible to fab a mount for 3 point mounting instead very easily like if you ever wanted to run your ole sickle on the Allis or an m with 3 point but no horseshoe drawbar.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

rankrank1 said:


> That Allis D17 Series II mutt should move a round bale with a 3 point bale spear rather handily I would think.
> 
> Alternatively, The ole Farmall M just might do it too if it had an add on 3 Point hitch installed on it. I do know I would try it with my ole Farmall M for sure. I have installed 3 points add on kits on both my ole Farmall h and my ole Farmall m are they make the tractors much more handier than they were without it. The Farmall belly pump would need to be in decent shape and a big cylinder used instead of a puny cylinder ram but I think my M could do it decently with care. I do not think my ole h would do it very well though as the belly pump is weaker on it, plus the h tractor is lighter and those trikes do begin to get light in the front end with too much of 3 point weight even if it could.
> 
> If you decide to add a 3 point to the m make sure you get the brand that retains the horseshoe drawbar as you need that for your sickle mower mounting although it is possible to fab a mount for 3 point mounting instead very easily like if you ever wanted to run your ole sickle on the Allis or an m with 3 point but no horseshoe drawbar.


I don't know what the M hitch conversion would cost but that money could be spent on roadworthy tires for the D17 and take care of a few issues at once.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

New they are pricey and especially now that Saginaw County Tractor there in Michigan quit making them altogether a couple years ago to instead focus only on building tractor ROPS and building tractor shade canopies. I would never pay the money for a brand new one though for an antique dinosaur like an ole Farmall h or Farmall m.

However, You can luck into them on Craigslist occasionally as the exact same hitch fits both a Farmall h and a Farmall m so that doubles the chances of finding a used one greatly. The Farmall h is the single best selling tractor model of all time with over 400,000 models of them sold alone and over 300K on the M's sold too so they have been added to many of them.

I paid $225 for an early Saginaw (or a Saginaw copy with single lift cylinder) that is on my Farmall h. Paid $300 for some unknown brand that I did some welding on to improve to my liking for the Farmall M. Both was money well spent in my case and each has easily earned their rather small purchase price for me anyway. I prefer the single lifting cylinder designs over the dual lifting cylinder models but that is me...and you will find people asking crazy high prices too but those are not selling.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

My Dad has a 3 point hitch with a spear mounted on the D17 currently. My Dad is not a farmer however he currently has horses hes looking to sell and does move around a few round bales. Other than that he uses the D17 less than 5 times a year... He'd let me keep it at my place as I'd use it a lot more than he ever will... except he wants it available when he wants it... I'm just waiting till the horses are gone so him and I can make a deal.

Even so I'd be able t o move rounds off the field but I couldn't load up a potential buyers trailer.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

A bale buggy behind a pickup will move bales off the meadow.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

rajela said:


> A bale buggy behind a pickup will move bales off the meadow.


I'll google bale buggy and look into it. Thanks.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Seems like they are around $1,500 I suppose it could be worth it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

rankrank1 said:


> Is the spring missing on the needle stop safety? It should have protected your needles.


Alright guys I thought I knew why I sheared my needles but apparently I am wrong. I have the needles back and they are welded very nicely. I want to make sure I check everything and make sure I'm not missing what caused them to shear. I am looking for any and ALL things to check before I run more hay through this baler. I looked around for the needle stop safety that Rank mentioned and was unable to locate anything that I thought was a needle stop safety. Any help would be great. Thanks guys.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MDP,

Page 10 (page 12 of PDF) of your manual (plunger safety latch, is how it's decribed).

Larry

PS don't know why the reversed colors, trying again.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks Larry. I will definitely look into that latch. I don't believe any type of latch or guard is moving up into the chamber to protect the needles.... I will also mention that no shear pins were sheared which tells me the safety latch was not up.

I am confused though because when I run a manual cycle it looks impossible for the plunger to hit the needles... The plunger head as recesses that give space for the needles.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

*I am confused though because when I run a manual cycle it looks impossible for the plunger to hit the needles... The plunger head as recesses that give space for the needles.*

If probably shouldn't be said plunger hitting/breaking needle, because (IMHO) it is the material (hay/straw) that the plunger is pushing that causing breakage.

So in my mind, the plunger is the major player, but the plunger could argue that it isn't the responsible party (if the hay wasn't there the needles wouldn't break).

You are right there is recesses available for the needles, there isn't space for the hay/straw/material to miss these old needles however.

Larry

PS I hope you have the slot available on the back side of the needles for the twine to follow. Mike10's wisdom about how a baler becomes un-threaded.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

That's good to know.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I have a couple weeks to get this baler in good condition before I need it for 2nd cutting.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Nothing wrong with throwing a few bales through it before hand (re-baling hay or go fetch some straw, that's in season right now). 

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I just don't want to shear the needles again while testing


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

If you didn't shear a shear pin, I would look closely at the safety latch, if might not be functioning properly. :angry: It has a specific purpose and that is to protect the needles. The manual tells how to inspect/adjust this latch. If it is frozen (locked up), or out of spec, you could easily be in need of fixing needles quickly again, next time you bale. 

If you remember, the tying of a bale, happens pretty fast, doesn't take a lot of something to be out of timing/adjustment much to screw things up (as you are aware of). Even though everything is working in slow motion (turning by hand), doesn't mean it is going to work at field conditions. That's why I suggested baling a little straw, BEFORE your next cutting.

Keep in mind, your baler, is made to run at 70 strokes a minute, so the knotters/needles cycle in less than a second, during field conditions.

Larry


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

My bet is the spring is missing on the safety stop since you both broke needles and the plunger hit them. That spring is the single most important spring on the entire baler as it prevents the plunger from hitting the needles.

However there are other possibilities that could break the needles:

A) You did not bolt the needles into the proper spot for just a slight rub on the knotter frame when they cycled? (Often this not only breaks a needle as well as knotter frames).. This costs like $4 to fix.

B)adjustment of the needles the last time you bolted them in was actually perfect for where the knotter frames were at that particular moment in time. However there is slop on the knotter frames that needs shimmed with washers to prevent lateral movement on that main shaft that the knotter frames pivot on. Your adjustment could have been perfect but then if that knotter frame slides laterally just a bit due to slop then kawham. (again could break a needle .as well as knotter frame or both frames) . This is really a free fix.but takes time in putting the shim washers in proper spots.

C) The Wishbone framework Yoke that the needles bolt onto is not pivoting true each time and something is permitting excessive lateral slop. Could be slop in the pivot bearings, broken welds on the bale chamber which is the structure where the bearings mount to in this case, or rusted away metal on the bale chamber which again is the structure support of where the bearings mount so if movement happens here it is bad. Any of these can cause a situation that permits lateral slop so that when those needle cycle there is major interference instead of just a light rub at the needle and knotter frame. I went thru this on my rusted out bale chamber and lost both a needle and a knotter frame and learned my lesson the hard and expensive way. Welding in new metal fixed my issue and I shimmed the knotter frames back to spec when I replaced the one I broke for good measure too. This could be a free fix or a few dollar fix depending on issues..

Note: Your needles have been welded twice now. That type of cast iron metal gets more brittle than it was originally with each welding. Would have been better had they been brazed likely but others have successfully run welded needles, but if it were me I would get a set of unwelded needles and put on the machine to use as the primaries and keep the welded ones for spares. Sure is a shame you did not go get that free 66 baler with good needles I found for yah a while back


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks for the great info Rank. I will see if I have time today after work to find or find where the spring should be. I will post an update once I figure something out or need more advice. Thanks again.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

8 min 10 second

I think this is what I need to check.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

At 2:30 I think this is also what I need to check.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Will those marks or dots be on my baler? Or did someone put them there?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Part number 47 is your stop.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Why does it say Guide ?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Why does it say Guide ?


Because of my fat finger, should have typed number 47. 

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Hahahaha


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Alright guys we figured it out. We pulled the yoke towards the back then put the plunger arm vertical. Then we took off the knotter drive chain. Then we aligned the dots on the clutch and case and positioned the pawl up against the stopper. In either case if I am describing it wrong we were able to get the needles to clear aka slightly rub the frame and tie knots!! When the needles first enter the bottom of the chamber the front of the plunger is about 1/2" past the needles which is just about perfect.

I am really happy that we seemed to have it timed right... however we still need to figure out this safety latch.... mine comes up from the bottom of the chamber as opposed to the side as the one in the video I posted. In one of my pictures you can see the latch and I understand how it enters the chamber. In one of he pictures you can see a little hole which I imagine is where a spring connects... I just don't understand where the other end of the spring attaches. It also seems like the latch part that enters the chamber rubs against the entry hole so that it has created a little indentation. I desperately need to figure how to install this spring and adjust the positioning. I really do not want to run this thing without the safety latch operational.

I will go to the dealership and buy the spring but I'm not sure if I am missing any other necessary parts for this to work of if all I need is the spring for it to work. If anyone can tell from the picture please advise. If I need to take more pictures let me know.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

The 5th pic clearly shows the safety latch spring is missing. I can see where to hook the one end but can not tell where to hook other end from that pic but the manual excerpt scans from post 73 in this thread show a picture of the spring (as well as the safety latch) and list a dimension of 7.125 inches so it should be pretty obvious where the other end hooks to. Your manual likely has a better pic than this posted scan. Would be silly not to get this working as it protects your needles and is single handedily the most important spring on the baler.

Additionally your safety latch is adjustable. That same page excerpt in post 73 tells you how to adjust that and where to measure for that dimension.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Can you post a picture of your manual page(s) that show the adjustment of this latch by chance?

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I will when I get home.


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## kentuckyguy (Apr 13, 2015)

Here's a picture of the plunger stop and spring on a new holland 68. This should be very similar to your 66.

It's on the left side of the pic with a arm going back to the needles. Theoretically the needles should not be able to be hit by plunger when it's working correctly.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

kentuckyguy said:


> Here's a picture of the plunger stop and spring on a new holland 68. This should be very similar to your 66.
> 
> It's on the left side of the pic with a arm going back to the needles. Theoretically the needles should not be able to be hit by plunger when it's working correctly.


It seems like my comes up from the bottom and not through the side.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I tried to take some decent pictures but it was difficult getting the right angels laying under the baler. I hope the ones I took are good enough to help shed some light on what I have to do.


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## kentuckyguy (Apr 13, 2015)

Yep that’s it on the bottom.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

kentuckyguy said:


> Yep that's it on the bottom.


Any idea where I hook my missing spring to? I see the hole in the lever but I don't know where the other end connects. I'm assuming a spring is missing. I do see a spring in one of the pictures but I'm thinking that's not related to the safety lever.

I see that bar on the side that slides forwards and backwards. It has a little arm that comes off. I would think that would be moving for a reason.


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## KNFarm (Jul 7, 2011)

I took a couple of pics on my 66 which show the other end of the spring is connected to the axle.





  








IMG 20180713 072305356




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KNFarm


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Jul 13, 2018











  








IMG 20180713 072232836




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KNFarm


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Jul 13, 2018


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

KNFarm said:


> I took a couple of pics on my 66 which show the other end of the spring is connected to the axle.


Thank you very much! That spring looks about the same size they said it was at the dealership.... Don't lose it it'll set you back $36 

I'll look in that area for a spot to hook the spring. In your 2nd picture any idea what that bar does that slides forward and backwards?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Doesn't the spring somehow have to be connected to the needle yoke? So it moves in concert with the needles? When the needles are back it's out of the chamber and when the needles are forward the safety lever is in the chamber.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

KNFarm said:


> I took a couple of pics on my 66 which show the other end of the spring is connected to the axle.


In your first picture I see that the bar I am referring to does move the safety latch. That small circular bar that comes off the long bar that does forward and backward... That's what is connected to the yoke and what powers the lever in and out of the chamber. I think I'm starting to put it together finally.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Horizontal arrow points to what you seem to be calling a lever, this should move close to as soon as the needles begin leaving their home position. The vertical arrow is the piece that contacts the safety latch, pulling the latch out of the bale camber, when needles return to their home position. The missing spring is what sets (pulls) the safety latch into the bale chamber.





  








PlungerStop03




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r82230


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Jul 13, 2018








In my experience (JD14t and JD24t), as those balers got older, it seem that the needle clutch would disengage more often (maybe just a bump in the field at the wrong time even). The safety latch would be engaged and we would shear a shear bolt. After replacing shear bolt, just made it a habit to grab the needles and yank on them to ensure they were all the way back to the their home position.

Looks like KN, give you a pretty good idea of where to look to attach spring.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks Larry. I can picture how it works in my minds eye now. I have some adjusting to do... The "lever" aka the safety latch (the part that does into the chamber) doesn't line up with the hole in the bottom of the chamber very well. I show the hole looking from the bottom up in one of my pictures. It rubs on the side as it tries to enter... I can push it though with a little extra force but I'm thinking it should go in more easily... I Don't see much adjustment where it pivots to slide it more to the right. I think it says in the manual how to move. I hope I can get everything to line up or else I'll be bending metal in my near future....


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Wait until you get the spring. You might be surprised and it could work fine. The spring might put some side pull on the latch, that you are not doing.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Good call. I'll sit pat until that spring comes in early next week.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

MDP, where in western MI are you located? I'm in SW MI (Kalamazoo/Richland/Gull Lake) area. Depending on how far away you are, I could try to help you out however I could.

For your baler, you could fight it the entire summer, but I'd recommend you get the same Amish guy to work on it that serviced my NH311. It's a nice baler but one of the knotters was missing more than I'd like and the bales were always loose. I replaced several broken haydogs as well as all of the springs and new stops. But Christ King came to my place and worked on my baler for 2 hours right in my driveway, replaced a few parts, and basically gave me a 2 hr seminar on making adjustments and field repairs to my baler. Grand total $325 including parts. Out of 880 bales my baler has only missed one, and that was probably due to my knot from tying twine bales together. Not to mention I had several issues with the twine/knotters pop up in the field (due to same thing as before) and I was able to fix it in a matter of several minutes without getting stressed or worked up).

For your tractor, I really like the Ford X610 series. Not new enough to have all the electronics to crap out on you, not old enough to be 'old,' but still recent enough to be considered a contemporary tractor with plentiful parts that are inexpensive. Myself I have an '84 4610 which is 63 hp and 52 PTO hp. It's plenty of power for what you'd need and has plenty of power for what I do. Mine has a Westendorf loader which can be removed or installed in less than 2 minutes. I bought my tractor for $8500. You can find decent ones in the 9-13k range with loaders and canopy. That canopy is really nice for haying.

For a haybine, I use a '93 NH 488. It's a 9' machine, NH still makes them brand new today. Probably the best haybine of them all. Very similar in design to the 479/477's. Mine only has 500 acres on it and looks pretty much brand new, and I got it for $2500 in Illinois. I look around for a very long time and jump on it when I find a piece of nice equipment for a stupid good deal. Honestly with as little acreage as I do, as bumpy as the fields are, and as well as this haybine works, it'd be hard for me to justify a discbine. I can still mow 5-6 mph with his haybine if the ground allows it.

Find yourself a tedder for $1600-1700 too, it will help you a lot.

I look nationally for equipment and have a guy who trucks them in for me. My rotary rake came out of VA, tractor out of KS, haybine out of IL. I purchased them all on TractorHouse.

I used to have old junk equipment that was always giving me fits. I used to have an old JD bar rake, a 477 mower that had badly adjusted cutting bar, an Oliver 550 tractor. It seemed I spent all my time fixing stuff. I said to hell with it, sold it all, decided I wasn't buying junk anymore at cut rate prices, and set out to find better equipment not so vintage and not look for the cheapest I could find. With reliable equipment, I could now stop worrying about equipment and start worry about applying all the knowledge I gain from Haytalk on increasing my efficiency, making better hay, and running a better business in general. This year it's paying off for me big time.

Another thing I've done is get to know the other hay producers in the area and offer to help them out or otherwise get in their good graces. There's a couple near me who've been really helpful and see me as an up and comer as they know they're getting close to retiring. In turn they call me up when they need help (maybe a field square baled or raked) and vice versa when I need help, or trading leads for buyers. Everyone understands when hay is down it needs to get up, and around here we're pretty good at helping each other make that happen when problems arise.

Here's a video I made of all my stuff in action, really because I know come Jan 74th I'll be losing my mind wanting to make hay again so I can live vicariously through my videos.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Good Morning,

I just wanted to post a quick update on the needle safety latch issue. I installed the spring no problem but it was sitting hitting on the entry hole. The spring would pull the latch up just so far until it caught. I decided with no easy or moderately difficult way to remove and straighten out the latch that I would try to grind off the tag or dog ear that was catching. I managed to position my grinder in such a way to grind off enough so that it now moves freely through the hole.

I ran out of time yesterday to rest it live so hopefully I can get to that today. I have some old bales that fell apart that I was going to re-bale to test it everything out. After that I need to hook up the sickle and get ready for 2nd cutting. I'm hoping to cut on Wednesday to line up a Saturday baling extravaganza.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Does it move freely, when turning the baler by hand (after tripping the needles)? It should go into the bale chamber, right after the needles leave their home position (page 10 of your manual).

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll have to check this afternoon before I fire it up and run some loose hay though it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

My wife and I double and triple checked all of the positioning adjustments that we are aware of and everything seemed to be where it should be. We fired up the baler and I adjusted the throttle so I was at 66 strokes per min. We fed in some loose/busted bales to test all of our hard work out. I am very happy and proud to say that we made 4 good bales. We had no issues or set backs after out test. The only thing I need to tinker with as of this moment is the bale tensioners to make a more even and slightly more compact bale.

The forecast is changing here every hour but I have the sickle mounted on the M and ready to cut when I get home from work. I am hoping that I will be square baling on Saturday! Here's to HOPING!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I cut one field and another small piece yesterday after work. I was extremely lucky that all of the heavy rain went just north of me..... I was watching the radar intently all night lol. I have my largest field yet to cut which I will be doing today after work.

I will mention that the sickle cut like magic. I don't know exactly why but I have not mastered cutting with the sickle for first cutting. When the grass is medium length and dry the sickle works amazing. I'm wondering if first cutting just gets to long and damp at the bottom. I actually enjoyed cutting last night. I could have gone faster but I was running in 2nd gear 3/4 throttle. I'm looking forward to finishing the big field tonight.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

As your comfort level increases, maybe you will try 3rd gear in some straight sections of the field.  IMHO, that is probably the better speed, but YOU need to find out yourself (similar to having you speed up the ground speed on your baler last year). You should be able to cut at 3.5 - 4.5 MPH (at 3/4 throttle, M runs at about 4 MPH at full throttle, IIRC).

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I cut the back field yesterday after work. I cut in 3rd gear almost full throttle. Man was I going way to slow before! That was great! When the grass isn't over grown it makes it a lot easier.


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