# Gross profit per acre on hay production



## JD3430

Has anyone calculated it? 

Also, do you have the software to do so? I hand-calculated my gross profit (before fuel, payments, insurance, etc.) and was disappointed. Unless I did something wrong, I'm looking at about $220/acre/yr. (what I sold hay for per acre for the year). Majority of hay was round bales.

Would anyone else care to share their gross numbers/acre?


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## urednecku

Gross "profit" or gross "income" - as in how much $$ the check is for before any expenses?
The last 10 acres I baled, all square, avg app. $628, before any expenses. It was good & thick hemarthria, a limpograss. (Yes, I still have to look up the spelling.)

Edit: a little more number crunching, if I was still round baling like last year, that same amount would come in close to your numbers, @ app $228 / acre.

(yea, I was *real* lucky to find somebody that wants squares that bad!!!)


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## gradyjohn

Gross Profit is after you deduct your cost of sales. Gross profit is before expenses. Farming they are one in the same. On a retail level you buy products for resale and that is your cost of sales. Unless you buy hay and resale it you have no cost of sales as I understand. Fuel, chemicals, supplies, etc are expense items. Simple calculation is $ received / acres = gross income per acre.
If urednecku got $6,280 for his 10 acres then his Gross per acre is 628. My net is what interests me. That is the bottom line. I have plenty of deductions to offset.

If you have MS Excell you can set up a calculation.


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## urednecku

gradyjohn said:


> Gross Profit is after you deduct your cost of sales. Gross profit is before expenses. Farming they are one in the same. On a retail level you buy products for resale and that is your cost of sales. Unless you buy hay and resale it you have no cost of sales as I understand. Fuel, chemicals, supplies, etc are expense items. Simple calculation is $ received / acres = gross income per acre.
> If urednecku got $6,280 for his 10 acres then his Gross per acre is 628. My net is what interests me. That is the bottom line. I have plenty of deductions to offset.
> 
> If you have MS Excell you can set up a calculation.


I have microsoft works, but still trying to figure out how to work it. When it comes to these new-fangled 'puters & some of their programs, I'm about as dumb as a box of rocks.


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## gradyjohn

urednecku said:


> I have microsoft works, but still trying to figure out how to work it. When it comes to these new-fangled 'puters & some of their programs, I'm about as dumb as a box of rocks.


I taught basic MSOffice. I have MSworks on my computer at home so I will see what it limitations and check if it will work out.


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## hog987

Around $400 per acre plus or minus some depending on the quality of the hay.


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## mlappin

All depends, normal weather or drought year? Early drought or late drought? Fixed price on price of hay or as the market dictates?

This year with all the early dry I'm looking at an average of just under 4 tons/acre but lets say 4 tons even for easy math, hay is averaging between 180 to 240/ton at the auctions for even round bales but again for easy math lets say $200/ton. SO roughly before any expenses I'm grossing $800/acre.


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## JD3430

I found a mistake in my calculations, but I still only get about $300/acre for mushroom hay.
Mlappin, that's some nice tonnage/acre. My guess is maybe 1.5 tons/acre for me, but I'm not fertilizing much, either.


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## slowzuki

For me gross income per production acre is about 200$ but net profit has been working out to 1$ per year the last couple of years. I have 2 main problems to my profitability - my rented land has strict limitations (no chem fertilizer, no herbicides) so yields are low and I have to mow other non-hay land as the rent payment.

The other big expenses are I'm really still a startup, so I have a lot of expense related to setting up for repairs/tools etc, and my interest expense has been pretty high up to this year. I haven't touched my depreciation yet for tax purposes, and for forecasting its appropriate too as I've bought most of my equipment below market value so they would just be getting on track about now anyways. I've also lost access to a lot of equipment we used for free via an agreement with a neighbour.

Looked it over a bit and realized we have more capital tied up in the two tractors than all the other assets combined ie equipment, tools, supplies, shop etc. I've been thinking I should sell one of them and replace it with an old open station 2wd at 1/3 the cost, would make sense business wise.


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## fredro

did 500 5x5 rounds 4000 squares on 15000 fert 2000 chemical and about 6500 fuel had first major repair on 605m 1300 not counting supplies tractor payment and other things sounds like a really hard working hobbie but i love it 500x40= 20000+ 24000 squares=44000-25000-15000-6500msc land taves 1900 leaves about 10600 -1300 looks like 9300 glad drawing retirement check to pay bills lovei
it


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## JD3430

Looking at doubling acreage next year, but equipment required would of course add significantly to expenses.
Slowzuki, my dreams of a 125HP cab 4WD w/ loader are dissipating. I may be falling back to a more economical 100HP 4WD cab w/o loader. I may have to do loader work with my small tractor.
Like you, I am a start up with a whopping 1.5yrs in the business. I am debt heavy with loans on equipment. Have already paid off one loan. Can't wait to get more paid off.


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## somedevildawg

I have no flipping idea, haven't sold a bale of hay all year, no way of knowing.


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## endrow

JD3430 said:


> Has anyone calculated it? Also do you have software to do so?
> I hand calculated my gross profit (before fuel, payments, insurance, etc.) and was disappointed.
> Unless, I did something wrong, I'm looking at about $220/acre/yr. (what I sold hay for per acre for the year).
> Majority of hay was round bales.
> Would anyone else care to share their gross numbers/acre?


I live in central Pa . also . We grow mostly alfalfa and I think you are talking grass . On our strait orchard grass We average 5 to 6 tons per acre annually with 3 to 4 cuttings per year . We bale half the grass hay in rounds half in small squares . Rounds sell for $175 to $200 small squares sell for $240 to $325. 
For profit here in the east take soil tests now and spread all needed lime and half of any needed phosphorus and potash immediately. The other half of the p&k plus 75 units of nitrogen being spread next spring at green up. . At first sign of green up in early spring spray weeds with Clarity if needed . Start cutting as soon as heads start to show finish 1st cutting long before heads have seeds. Spread 45 units of nitrogen after each cutting . then cut every 40 days If you are cutting frequently there should be no need to be spraying 24d during the summer months ..


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> I found a mistake in my calculations, but I still only get about $300/acre for mushroom hay.
> Mlappin, that's some nice tonnage/acre. My guess is maybe 1.5 tons/acre for me, but I'm not fertilizing much, either.


Regardless of the price per ton, fertilizer will always be one of your _cheaper_ inputs. Unless the ground is fit for nothing else but sandburs and horsenettle, fertilizer will always pay off.

That's the average, oldest field barely broke 3 tons/acre, best one even with drought broke 5 tons/acre. Next year 50 acres I took out this year will be going to soybeans then back to hay. The one that barely broke 3 tons will definitely be taken out of hay production once the other 50 is back in.

Can't find it now as it's not hanging on the farm office wall anymore, but when we were milking cows yet Dad won a contest Purdue put on for combined yield per acre_ and_ feed value. Dad taught me how to make money on hay. One rule if your milking cows, planting corn can wait if it's just going to silage, have to make the hay on time.


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## mlappin

JD3430 said:


> Looking at doubling acreage next year, but equipment required would of course add significantly to expenses.
> Slowzuki, my dreams of a 125HP cab 4WD w/ loader are dissipating. I may be falling back to a more economical 100HP 4WD cab w/o loader. I may have to do loader work with my small tractor.
> Like you, I am a start up with a whopping 1.5yrs in the business. I am debt heavy with loans on equipment. Have already paid off one loan. Can't wait to get more paid off.


I was making around 225 acres with a NH499 haybine and after mowing that tractor would go on the rake. Baled all that hay with a NH644 round baler pulled with my Grandfather's open station Oliver 1600.

You don't have to spend an obscene amount of money to expand, but the question is, how comfortable do you want to be while doing it? How beat to death at the end of the day can you stand to be?

I ran the 13' discbine the first week I had it with the open station 1855 Oliver, decided if I wanted to keep my hearing and not get my head taken off by a flying rock from an unseen groundhog hole had to get a cab tractor. Bought a 1987 White 2-110 at an auction for about 3k less than going rate. Was a steal, have changed oil in it yearly, replaced two $35 load check valves and recharged A/C twice in four years. Bought a twin of that tractor for $12.5k and fixed the A/C and rebuilt the fuel charge pump. Absolutely can't beat baling in air conditioned comfort in triple digit heat.

But, I can get away with used, I have people bring me stuff when the dealer says it can't be fixed or they don't have time. Rebuilt a shaft in a gear box for myself the other day, bearing and gear surfaces were ate up. Welded it up, turned it down on the lathe, then cut a new half moon key as even that was ate up. Took it to a friend and we chucked it in his centerless surface grinder to do the seal area. Not available from the manufacturer anymore and a replacement Chinese throw away gearbox was $300.

Years ago had the mechanic and the owners son from a local dirt moving company track me down on the farm and asked if I could come and work for them long enough to get caught up on the repairs.

Have a local shop in town that does nothing but sharpen industrial tooling. Have a deal going on with them to put drive pin holes in metal cutting circular saw blades. Found normal tool steel won't do it, but after building a jig I can punch the holes in the blades with a 30 ton shop press then use a ream in the Bridgeport to take them out to the correct _metric_ size. They pay me 50 bucks a blade for doing two holes and they save the customer $75 bucks a blade over buying them pre-drilled from the manufacturer which may not work as the guy who added the drive bins on the saw didn't get them 100% square with the world.

Long and short of it? You can find ways to make money without spending a lot if your either talented enough or resourceful enough.


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## endrow

JD3430 said:


> I found a mistake in my calculations, but I still only get about $300/acre for mushroom hay.
> Mlappin, that's some nice tonnage/acre. My guess is maybe 1.5 tons/acre for me, but I'm not fertilizing much, either.


Could you get someone (possibly an extension agent) to help you evaluate the stands in your fields .


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## swmnhay

endrow said:


> Could you get someone (possibly an extension agent) to help you evaluate the stands in your fields .


I'd start with a soil test..1.5 ton would be a disaster HERE.

Hay has to compete with corn here so I need atleast $1000 acre to compete with corn.On tillable farm ground.

On untillable ground slews etc.400-600 Gross income this yr.

Gross income doesn't meen alot NET income does.


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## Teslan

Alfalfa gross per acre in previous years. = $1050. Alfalfa gross per acre this year= $1250. Grass hay gross per acre in previous years = $1050. Grass hay gross per acre this year= $1500. That's with 3 cuttings of the grass hay and 4 cuttings of the alfalfa. And one of those cuttings of grass was pretty crappy due to lack of irrigation water. If you are counting equipment costs including the prices of the machines that is the biggest input cost for us spread over the years. But yearly expenses fertilizer is by far the largest cost. Followed by electricity and fuel. With the alfalfa spraying is fairly expensive also.


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## Nitram

Every thing I make or lose is sunk back into the business. The majority of hay goes to the cows which increases my profit on them which in turn goes into machinery, parts etc. What custom work I do helps pay for expenses as well. I think it is better to out grow your equipment first and use the profits on great deals when they present themselves. Too many startups and small timers like us overextend themselves then lose everything they worked for. This is a great thread! And has motivated me to try and come up with a profit margin on my little enterprise. Martin


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## JD3430

Nitram said:


> Every thing I make or lose is sunk back into the business. The majority of hay goes to the cows which increases my profit on them which in turn goes into machinery, parts etc. What custom work I do helps pay for expenses as well.* I think it is better to out grow your equipment first and use the profits on great deals when they present themselves.* Too many startups and small timers like us overextend themselves then lose everything they worked for. This is a great thread! And has motivated me to try and come up with a profit margin on my little enterprise. Martin


Not sure what you mean. Do you mean outgrow, then sell the equipment for profit?
My biggest immediate equipment dilema is my tractor will not pull the round baler up the hills and my haybine is too slow to cut this much property without it breaking down.


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## Fowllife

JD3430 said:


> Not sure what you mean. Do you mean outgrow, then sell the equipment for profit?
> My biggest immediate equipment dilema is my tractor will not pull the round baler up the hills and my haybine is too slow to cut this much property without it breaking down.


I think he means run what you have for as long as you possibly can. Just make it work until you have made enough profit to upgrade comfortably.

I also agree with a lot of these guys, I'm not worried about anything except NET profit.

My one piece of advise to you is cut back on your acrage and fertalize a lot more. You will make more money making more hay off less acres then running more acres at 1.5 tn/ac. I honestly wouldn't waste my time with a field that produced that little over several cuttings. You need to look at your NET income with that production. Too much fuel and too much time to make a profit.


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## JD3430

I never looked at it from that perspective. Great advice.
Fertilize more on less land....
I guess taking that one step further, you could also fertilize on_ more_ land, too.


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## mlappin

Fowllife said:


> I think he means run what you have for as long as you possibly can. Just make it work until you have made enough profit to upgrade comfortably.
> 
> I also agree with a lot of these guys, I'm not worried about anything except NET profit.
> 
> My one piece of advise to you is cut back on your acrage and fertalize a lot more. You will make more money making more hay off less acres then running more acres at 1.5 tn/ac. I honestly wouldn't waste my time with a field that produced that little over several cuttings. You need to look at your NET income with that production. Too much fuel and too much time to make a profit.


Have to agree with this post and swmnhay, Anything less than 3 ton to the acre even in a tough year is a waste of my time, but all my hayfileds also have to compete with row crops.


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## Teslan

Many people around here cut and bale less then 3 tons an acre ( I don't unless like this year there wasn't much that could be done due to a lack of irrigation water), but they are the ones that don't fertilize and don't try very hard to produce quality hay. They also are the ones that charge just $3 a bale while everyone else is charging $7. So then those small amateur hay farmers lower the hay price for everyone.


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## endrow

JD3430 said:


> I never looked at it from that perspective. Great advice.
> Fertilize more on less land....
> I guess taking that one step further, you could also fertilize on_ more_ land, too.


And dont forget here in the east if the ph is low and the field needs lime fertilizer will not help


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## slowzuki

We get 2.5 tons per acre usually in our first cut, but we only get 2 cuts per year max. We can only get a 3 ton+ cutting on the best soils thats been heavily limed and fertilized as needed.

So its not a straight comparison to those acres further south. 1500 per acre, wow. No way to support that here.


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## jdhayboy

It seems JD your at a point where u know u need one of items if u want to keep growing your operation. Just crunch your numbers and see which one gives u most benefit. 
Here's a real example for me this year, it was really an unintended purchase but some easily shown benefits. We got a 4' Baler and were going to trade in the 5'. Salesman said they Wud leave 5' in case New Baler gave problems. It sat there almost two weeks. Got in a bind with the weather, hooked her up and was using both balers in 2 separate areas. Baled 100 rounds that first day finished both fields right before rain hit. Figured it made 2000 buks that day because it was reduce my price per bale by atleast 20 buks. Another benefit is now I can cut hay and not worry if I can get it all up. Which allows me turn my fields faster and getting them ready for next cutting. Hopefully getting more production out of that field for the year.


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## Teslan

slowzuki said:


> We get 2.5 tons per acre usually in our first cut, but we only get 2 cuts per year max. We can only get a 3 ton+ cutting on the best soils thats been heavily limed and fertilized as needed.
> 
> So its not a straight comparison to those acres further south. 1500 per acre, wow. No way to support that here.


$1500 was this year. I don't anticipate it to be that much next year unless we are still in a drought next year or over the winter. Though it would be sure nice with adequate irrigation water to still be that high. Plus we weren't able to irrigate all our acres all year this year. Some areas of our fields only got cut one time. But the price got to be so high that it made up for it.


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## JD3430

$1,500/acre. That's astounding. I have some 10 acre fields that don't make that much.


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## hog987

Mlappin how many cuts do you take to get 4 tons to the acre. This year I got 4 tons on one cut but only got 1/3 of my land for a second cut as the first cut was done too late for a second


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## Nitram

Fowllife said:


> I think he means run what you have for as long as you possibly can. Just make it work until you have made enough profit to upgrade comfortably.


Exactly, I have done with out cabs extra tractors vrake and used old crap until I could afford bigger better and more efficient equipment. But as I pointed out It was for my own use and not dependent on sales as you are. What works for me may not for others. If what you have will not do the job then by all means upgrade to what you need. And as you gain in profits and find the equip you would rather have and can afford then grab it. If your current tractor cant pull up the hills and you cant lay the hay down in time then you are forced to make a move. Martin


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## endrow

JD3430 what crops were grown on this land prior to this year. Is there good grass there you indicated before the weeds come back so quickly after cutting even in summer To me that is an indication there is no good grass in the fields.


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## JD3430

endrow said:


> JD3430 what crops were grown on this land prior to this year. Is there good grass there you indicated before the weeds come back so quickly after cutting even in summer To me that is an indication there is no good grass in the fields.


Far as I know, it's always been grass fields. Just took them over last year. First cuttings are plentiful, but there are some weeds. I haven't planted anything. Just trying to improve what's there. The grasses growing in the fields look like good grasses according to the buyers of the 1200 small bales I sold and nobody has called back with complaints. In fact, all have called back looking for more. Weeds need to be controlled and second cuttings are considerably less productive.
I am going to try to put more $ into fertilizing in 2013. Other than the bare basics, don't know when/what to use and I'm constantly looking for help in that area.
I have no father, mentor or advisor in my life to ask for advice and I didn't grow up on a family farm, so I will make mistakes along the way.


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## JD3430

Nitram said:


> Exactly, I have done with out cabs extra tractors vrake and used old crap until I could afford bigger better and more efficient equipment. But as I pointed out It was for my own use and not dependent on sales as you are. What works for me may not for others. If what you have will not do the job then by all means upgrade to what you need. And as you gain in profits and find the equip you would rather have and can afford then grab it.* If your current tractor cant pull up the hills and you cant lay the hay down in time then you are forced to make a move. Martin*


That's where I would be if I accepted this 80 ac farm.
For now, I'm OK, but I am a little worn down from only having one tractor and my puny 2 star tedder lol.
Balers & rake are fine.


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## Bob M

With hay i usually try and gross atleast $1000/ac this year with corn prices up, we are pricing our hay for more than $1000/ac gross. My objective would never be, to go after the lowest valued market. The mushroom hay market is good for hay that should not be feed to some type of livestock. I do not think there is much more expense in making $300/ton vs $100/ton hay. It does cost a little more, but not $200/ton. Having said this I wil sell prob sell some of our hay to the mushroom market, unless I can find a better mulch market.


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## Bob M

JD3430 said:


> Far as I know, it's always been grass fields. Just took them over last year. First cuttings are plentiful, but there are some weeds. I haven't planted anything. Just trying to improve what's there. The grasses growing in the fields look like good grasses according to the buyers of the 1200 small bales I sold and nobody has called back with complaints. In fact, all have called back looking for more. Weeds need to be controlled and second cuttings are considerably less productive.
> I am going to try to put more $ into fertilizing in 2013. Other than the bare basics, don't know when/what to use and I'm constantly looking for help in that area.
> I have no father, mentor or advisor in my life to ask for advice and I didn't grow up on a family farm, so I will make mistakes along the way.


 Give Don Moore with AET consulting a call, he does many ac in our area.( 443 553 2442) He can do all your nutrient management work.


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## somedevildawg

As usual I see a lot of guys are confusing gross income and gross profit, these are vastly different figures, just as gross profit is diff. from net profit......income vs profit. That's where controlling expenses makes a difference, controlling them (and a lil luck)allows income to turn to profit!


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## Fowllife

JD3430 said:


> I am going to try to put more $ into fertilizing in 2013. Other than the bare basics, don't know when/what to use and I'm constantly looking for help in that area.
> I have no father, mentor or advisor in my life to ask for advice and I didn't grow up on a family farm, so I will make mistakes along the way.


Pull soil samples, they will tell you a lot. If I remember correct though you rent all the land that you run, or farm it for free. Thats going to be somewhat of an issue for you. Chances are that this land has been raped of all of it's nutrients for years and it will be hard, and very expensive to get it back. Economically you may not be able to apply all the NPK that they would need to be a really good field, but you may be able to apply some micro's that would really give you a boost.

You're going to have to be carefull though. Unless you have a long term lease your not going to be able to get the soil back where it should be because it will be cost prohibitive. As soon as you spend good money to repair the soil someone will realize it's a good producing field, and someone else will be farming it. I would guess your best bet for now would be low $$ inputs like lime & micro's.

I am in a position similar to you. I'm just starting out and don't have family, or a good mentor to help me. It's amazing how much information is on this site, the members are great with sharing their knowledge. Spend a lot of time searching for any University info, and looking at other websites. Talk to your local county extention agent. Study Hay Wilson, and others post's.


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## swmnhay

*You can take your own soil samples and mail them in.Here is one of the labs from our area.They will give you different recommendations for different ylds.Soil test is about $20.*

*http://www.agviselabs.com/*


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## endrow

Fowllife said:


> Pull soil samples, they will tell you a lot. If I remember correct though you rent all the land that you run, or farm it for free. Thats going to be somewhat of an issue for you. Chances are that this land has been raped of all of it's nutrients for years and it will be hard, and very expensive to get it back. Economically you may not be able to apply all the NPK that they would need to be a really good field, but you may be able to apply some micro's that would really give you a boost.
> 
> You're going to have to be carefull though. Unless you have a long term lease your not going to be able to get the soil back where it should be because it will be cost prohibitive. As soon as you spend good money to repair the soil someone will realize it's a good producing field, and someone else will be farming it. I would guess your best bet for now would be low $$ inputs like lime & micro's.
> 
> I am in a position similar to you. I'm just starting out and don't have family, or a good mentor to help me. It's amazing how much information is on this site, the members are great with sharing their knowledge. Spend a lot of time searching for any University info, and looking at other websites. Talk to your local county extention agent. Study Hay Wilson, and others post's.


It is sad that some will farm land to nothing and move on . . I have also seen cases where farmers have abandoned land after they have over applied herbicides like" simazine" ," martin clean pasture" "grazon" etc, etc. and you cant even start a new crop there if you try . We always do the window box test on any new land before we rent I got burnt bad with somebody elses herbicide residuals years ago. ,


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## Nitram

Window box test? Please tell me of this.


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## mlappin

hog987 said:


> Mlappin how many cuts do you take to get 4 tons to the acre. This year I got 4 tons on one cut but only got 1/3 of my land for a second cut as the first cut was done too late for a second


This year my yields were down to a late freeze this spring then the drought half the summer. Four tons acre is the average for this year, some fields only got mowed 3 times, about half got mowed four times.. I could have got 5 cuttings this year, but about time I should have started fourth on some of it was when we had like 23 days of rain out of 30. Most years I get between 5-6 tons/acre off four cuttings. Rarely do I get five cuttings, too busy in the spring getting the row crops in the ground to start as early as some, and about the time I _could_ take a last cutting I'm more worried about cutting soybeans.


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## JD3430

I think I should have titled this thread "tons per acre", instead of gross profit per acre. Gross profit depends on too many variables.

However, I learned a lot from this thread thanks to all who contributed...... especially that I need to learn how to make a more hay on my fields per acre.
I think the contributor that commented to concentrate my efforts on making my existing acreage more productive rather than concentrating on aquiring more acreage really hit it out of the park. I do spend some on NKP, but I believe more effort & education on my part is the way to go.
I really find that it's not too difficult to aquire more acreage in my area.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm

Hey JD, i pulled a sample on some of my little fields here and I just bought the soil sample kit at my local feed store and then it gets sent to Penn State Ag dept and they send it back for less then $15. I put on all the the recommendations they said and will see what happend next year. Was well worth it cause i needed 2ton of lime per acre. Should start to see benifits in spring.


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## JD3430

I did the same thing thru my local fertilizing company. They do it for me for free since I buy from them. I need lime, too.


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## urednecku

JD3430 said:


> I did the same thing thru my local fertilizing company. They do it for me for free since I buy from them. I need lime, too.


Our local fert. company will also do it for free. My concern with them doing it is they are telling me what I _need _to buy _from them_. HERE, the state Ag. dept only charges $7 per sample for a report, and I feel they are un-biased because they have no idea nor do they care who I buy from.
About 3 years ago I had a weed problem & asked the fert. rep. what to use. I can't remember what it was, but was a name brand, because that's what they sell. A call to the local Ag. Experiment Station gave me a better suggestion, with less 'collateral damage', at about 1/2 the price.


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## hay wilson in TX

Gross income, In round numbers. 
5 tons/A average yield. is 175 bales/A @ $8.00/bale or 9 RB at $90/A =* $1,400* or *$810*/A Gross income.

Drought year average 3.3 T/A is 115 bales/A or 5.9 RB/A still at same price = *$920* or *$535*/A.
For 2011 the yield here was 3.3T/A which was a ton of hay for 6" of rain. One field for reasons of it's own yielded a ton of hay on 3.2" of rain.

In an exceptionally good year the yield has been just over 7 tons/A, but with a lower asking price.

The drought years received the same pounds/A of fertilizer but the price was more than doubled from a few years ago.

Now this is good clay soil with a 50 CEC that can handle large amounts of fertilizer and that fertilizer will not leach out. Fertilizer applied but not taken up by hay is available for later years and will be used if there is a greater than average yields. Something that is not an option near Canton, TX where fertilizers are a must and is a put and take situation. Theirs is almost as bad as a hydroponic situation.
Contributing to the expense is $2.50/Bale harvest. $0.50/Bale picking up and storing. $0.75/bale barn barn storage.
RB are $25/B harvesting. $5.00/bale PU and store in hay yard.

HERE with little of no fertilizer yield is in the 12 inches of rain per ton of hay.

HERE with our climate alfalfa usually yields less than the bermudagrass fields. This is due to the growth habits of the two forages. Alfalfa will grow until it runs out of water and stop. When there is new water there alfalfa regrow's from the tips not from where it left off. Bermudagrass also stops growing for a lack of water but will regrow where it left off with useable rains.
In a drought year bermudagrass out yields alfalfa. In an average year they are about even for yield. In a lush year the alfalfa out yields the bermudagrass.
HERE the climate is alfalfa hay cut in April, May, & July plus again early October. Bermudagrass cut in June July and late September. We have an annual, & expected, summer drought.


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## hog987

Sounds like Iam growing hay in the wrong area. Around here nobody wants to pay anything for good hay. People want the best hay I got but for no more than 3 cents a pound.If they are only going to pay that much they are not getting my best hay.


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## hay wilson in TX

hog987
At 3 cents a pound they want to buy hay for the cost of harvesting. That would be ok if you could buy their grain crop for no more than the cost of combining.

Your best option is to put a fence around your hay ground and graze it. More cost efficient for sure.

With those who are so arrogant to think we should sell to them at a loss, or give them charity, I raise the price.

Add an insult surcharge. !


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## JD3430

urednecku said:


> Our local fert. company will also do it for free. My concern with them doing it is they are telling me what I _need _to buy _from them_. HERE, the state Ag. dept only charges $7 per sample for a report, and I feel they are un-biased because they have no idea nor do they care who I buy from.
> About 3 years ago I had a weed problem & asked the fert. rep. what to use. I can't remember what it was, but was a name brand, because that's what they sell. A call to the local Ag. Experiment Station gave me a better suggestion, with less 'collateral damage', at about 1/2 the price.


I was concerned about that, too. My guy uses an "independent" lab to get me my test results. They send it out to be tested, just like I would. I know that doesn't gaurantee any unbiased results, but probably better than "in-house" testing.


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## endrow

Nitram said:


> Window box test? Please tell me of this.


Sorry for delayed response been living in the combine. . Back in the70's & 80's every farm including ours used too much atrazine . Alfalfa is very sensitive to atrazine you would plant it and it would grow an inch or two look great But after a good all day rain when the sun came out it would tun yellow and die. . so if ya weren't sure which field would be safe to plant alfalfa in the spring (record keeping minimal in the 70's). What ya did Soon as the ground thawed Go out to the field pull samples; mix up and put dirt in box and plant a handfull of alfalfa seed in it. Set box on your window sill the inside house. after it comes up water the daylites out of it and if it does not yellow and die field is good to plant alfalfa in . THUS THE WINDOW BOX TEST . probably just Pennsylvania Dutch slang I got from Grandpa


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## cmd

Good grass hay in small squares I average about $500 in sales (not profit) per acre.


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## aawhite

Here is a link from KSU extension service, on cost/return of seeding alfalfa. It opens a pdf file It does pull a lot of info in specific to Kansas, but you can adjust it for different regions and forages. KSU also has one for brome, and for all row crops. Should give you a pretty good idea of what your return per acre is. You may want to give your local extension site a visit, they may have something similar for your area

http://www.ksre.ksu.edu/library/agec2/mf363.pdf


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## mlappin

hay wilson in TX said:


> Gross income, In round numbers.
> 5 tons/A average yield. is 175 bales/A @ $8.00/bale or 9 RB at $90/A =* $1,400* or *$810*/A Gross income.
> 
> Drought year average 3.3 T/A is 115 bales/A or 5.9 RB/A still at same price = *$920* or *$535*/A.
> For 2011 the yield here was 3.3T/A which was a ton of hay for 6" of rain. One field for reasons of it's own yielded a ton of hay on 3.2" of rain.


Last year I averaged 205 bushel/acre corn. This year with the weird summer I averaged 165 bushel/acre corn but at $7.87 so I grossed around $1300/acre. Hay averaged just a touch under 4 ton/acre with the drought with average selling price at $200/ton atm, so averaging $800/acre. BUT, and this is a big but, I bet I have three times the hours involved in making the hay.

While the equipment for haymaking and even the inputs are considerably less for hay, my time isn't free and is actually extremely valuable. Since going to a hundred percent no-till it doesn't take long at all to get an entire crop in the ground. A 60' spray boom at 10mph covers a lot of ground, a fertilizer spreader with a 65' spread at 10mph covers even more ground and planting with a 16 row corn planter at 5mph is real easy to knock out a hundred acres a day. Come time to side dress a 40' 28% bar at 8mph covers a lot of ground.

So actually a better subject might be gross profit per hour invested.


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## swmnhay

mlappin said:


> Last year I averaged 205 bushel/acre corn. This year with the weird summer I averaged 165 bushel/acre corn but at $7.87 so I grossed around $1300/acre. Hay averaged just a touch under 4 ton/acre with the drought with average selling price at $200/ton atm, so averaging $800/acre. BUT, and this is a big but, I bet I have three times the hours involved in making the hay.
> 
> While the equipment for haymaking and even the inputs are considerably less for hay, my time isn't free and is actually extremely valuable. Since going to a hundred percent no-till it doesn't take long at all to get an entire crop in the ground. A 60' spray boom at 10mph covers a lot of ground, a fertilizer spreader with a 65' spread at 10mph covers even more ground and planting with a 16 row corn planter at 5mph is real easy to knock out a hundred acres a day. Come time to side dress a 40' 28% bar at 8mph covers a lot of ground.
> 
> So actually a better subject might be gross profit per hour invested.


Yea But.

If I'm not working I'm probably doing something else thats costing me money.









Some wet springs it's nice to have hay.It's a perenial,already planted.I don't have to fight the weather to get it planted like corn or beans.

Some falls can be wet & cold and the hay ground is all done before then.









I like being deversified,although I shifted a couple hundred acres from alfalfa to corn.


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## mlappin

I've found here if it's one of _those _springs and it's too wet to get much field work done, it's also too wet to make much hay. The ground is either saturated and you run the risk of tracking it up while mowing, or your getting showers every other day.


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## Bob M

mlappin said:


> Last year I averaged 205 bushel/acre corn. This year with the weird summer I averaged 165 bushel/acre corn but at $7.87 so I grossed around $1300/acre. Hay averaged just a touch under 4 ton/acre with the drought with average selling price at $200/ton atm, so averaging $800/acre. BUT, and this is a big but, I bet I have three times the hours involved in making the hay.
> 
> While the equipment for haymaking and even the inputs are considerably less for hay, my time isn't free and is actually extremely valuable. Since going to a hundred percent no-till it doesn't take long at all to get an entire crop in the ground. A 60' spray boom at 10mph covers a lot of ground, a fertilizer spreader with a 65' spread at 10mph covers even more ground and planting with a 16 row corn planter at 5mph is real easy to knock out a hundred acres a day. Come time to side dress a 40' 28% bar at 8mph covers a lot of ground.
> 
> So actually a better subject might be gross profit per hour invested.


This on of the main reasons I have raised our hay prices closer to $300/ton. I firgue it has to come close to $ for corn. Most years hay should be alot more than corn, as you stated much more labor and risk!


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## Rodney R

3430,
It sounds like you need to get everything soil tested, and get some long term contracts on the land rent, say 3 to 5 years. The pH is *VERY* important, as if it is too high or too low, the ground will have a stronger attraction to the fertilizer particles than the plants ability to suck those same nutrients out of the ground. 
We took over a few fields from the one neighbor years back - One was in orchardgrass, and it gave a low yield the 1st year. It had a lot of groundhog holes in it, so I decided that I should get rid of some of those monsters before it got turned over.... The next year we gave it fertilizer like everything else, plus a little. The yield went up dramatically. The hay was nice enough, and yield was now good enough to keep the field, so the next year it got the same treatment, and the yield went up a little more. We had some lime applied, and even with less fertilizer the yield then did not drop. So, the moral of all of this is to not give up after one year, and neglected ground needs more than one year to bring it back to life. 
In your case the thing to do is to not get more land, until you get the land that you already have into full production. That also means that you have to strive to make hay other than mushroom hay. Last week I was at the mushrooms (1st time in over 10 years) with some moldy hay, and the price they were paying was $90 ton. I was selling little bales of mulch hay 5 years ago for more than that! Good grass hay is going for $170-230 and the cost of production is the same...... Granted, the storage cost is going to be more on good hay, but for $80 to $140 a ton, it doesn't take long to justify some decent storage.

Rodney


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## JD3430

Rodney R said:


> 3430,
> It sounds like you need to get everything soil tested, and get some long term contracts on the land rent, say 3 to 5 years. The pH is *VERY* important, as if it is too high or too low, the ground will have a stronger attraction to the fertilizer particles than the plants ability to suck those same nutrients out of the ground.
> We took over a few fields from the one neighbor years back - One was in orchardgrass, and it gave a low yield the 1st year. It had a lot of groundhog holes in it, so I decided that I should get rid of some of those monsters before it got turned over.... The next year we gave it fertilizer like everything else, plus a little. The yield went up dramatically. The hay was nice enough, and yield was now good enough to keep the field, so the next year it got the same treatment, and the yield went up a little more. We had some lime applied, and even with less fertilizer the yield then did not drop. So, the moral of all of this is to not give up after one year, and neglected ground needs more than one year to bring it back to life.
> In your case the thing to do is to not get more land, until you get the land that you already have into full production.


Absolutely! I will not give up on the fields I have aquired. I intend to get PH samples in the next few weeks and have them analyzed by the lab. However, i want to fight "the battle" on 2 fronts:
Front #1: Continue to improve existing fields I have. Also-I pay no rent on any of the fields I currently hay.
Front#2: Continue to aquire any fields that look like they are worth aquiring. I do not want to stay small. I want to get bigger and build this into a legitimate business. However, i have no desire to do small squares. I want to mechanize as much is as affordable. I have done 20+ years of hiring & firing idiots that dont want to work. I like round bales more than the labor required for small squares and we have no shortage of customers willing to feed round bales now.



> "That also means that you have to strive to make hay other than mushroom hay. Last week I was at the mushrooms (1st time in over 10 years) with some moldy hay, and the price they were paying was $90 ton. I was selling little bales of mulch hay 5 years ago for more than that! Good grass hay is going for $170-230 and the *cost of production is the same*...... Granted, the storage cost is going to be more on good hay, but for $80 to $140 a ton, it doesn't take long to justify some decent storage.
> 
> Rodney
> "


I agree partly with you here. Mushroom hay does not require as much investment to make. The buyer does not mind _some _weeds. Therefore less cost in spraying. I can also ship hay right out of the field to the buyer. A little rain is no big deal.
I think if you understood the proximity of the mushroom buyers to me, you'd see why I sell so much to them. They are about 5-10 miles away.
OK, all that said, you bring up valid points that I need to grow hay for higher paying buyers and I actually have done that. I have 3 customers buying round bales for $75-$80/900 lb round bale. So that's more like $170/ton (delivered a short distance). I am continuing to find more round bale customers in the area and must continue to find more. Interest has been promising. However, I will have to strive for more weed-free hay with those customers.
The great thing about the mushroom hay buyer is they will buy lower quality hay from fields that are newly aquired and may need work any day any time. The mushroom buyer also gives me a "firewall" of sorts to sell my hay to should it get rained on, bleached-out or be a little to moist on the moisture meter. One thing you have to realize is I have no livestock to feed "moist" hay to. I also have a very limited amount of sheltered space for storage.
BTW: I get $105-$110/ton for 'shroom hay and the buyer is real johnny on the spot with payment.
I really appreciate you offering your advice. I feel very blessed to get all of your opinions and advice.


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## Rodney R

I've been selling hay to a guy that is closer than that to mushroom houses, say 1/8 mile, and he says that unless he has no other option he'll make mushroom hay. I guess the thing is that they can grow corn that'll gross 5 times what the mushroom hay will gross. They have to watch what they use to spray weeds, as the hay will be rejected if it kills mushrooms, and many things will, and even if a guy want to grow mushroom hay, weeds are still your enemy - they steal tonnage and nutrients. $105-110 is a good price at the mushrooms. However, just apply the calculator - 4 tons/acre is only $440. The market for the $170/ton hay.... that figures much better at $680. The point that I was trying to make, and you understand, is that it should not be your goal to make mushroom hay, cause it doesn't pay much more than expenses. Years ago, when we had a round baler, the mushrooms would not even take round bales. I know a few guys who have 4x4 balers cause that's all their buyers will take.... The closest one is about 15 miles from me, and they take all kinds of bales, but the guys in actual mushroom country is normally more picky.....

Rodney


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## JD3430

Yes, you are right. I shouldn't be trying to make 100% mushroom hay. However, the mushroom hay buyer have made my entry into making hay possible. I didn't (and still don't) know how to make real good hay. he enabled me to have a place to sell average hay with no hesitation. I had ZERO customers and lots of hay. So that worked out good. Incidentally: he actually prefers to buy round bales over big squares.
I think when you're new in this business (or just about any business), you take all available land that looks reasonable. I can always cut loose a field I can't fix. I think I'm going to concentrate on round bales for cattle/horse owners and sell the worst to mushroom while trying to improve existing stands and aquire more stands. It seems like I am finding more & more round bale buyers.
Last season, it was not difficult to take on 110 acres with no experience, 1 tractor and a lot of unreliable hay equipment.
Since last season, I have improved my round baler and tedder and I'm a week away from picking up my 2nd tractor. I should be able to add a reliable used discbine over the winter, too. Should be a much easier year (equipment wise) than last year and I'll be more experienced and have added a few more round bale buyers.
You are right about not settling to make round bales for mushroom, though. Thanks, I will heed your advice and keep my own specific situation job #1.
I think if there's one thing I've found about hay it's that everyone's situation is different, but we all want to make money.


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