# In the market for a new Hay Mower.



## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

*Good day all*,

I am possibly in the market for a new Hay Mower or Hay Mower / conditioner. I currently have a John Deere 1470 which was a decent machine in its time but not any more. I have been looking at a lot of the manufacturers out there and there is a lot of new technology out there but wanted to get a customer perspective on it, Dealers feel free to chime in if you have truly valid information but sales pitches are not welcome, only proven data & information please.

The products that I have been looking at lately are Drum & Disc mowers & Mower / Conditioners. Manufactures like Krone, Caas, Kuhn, Lely, New Holland, Vermeer, Zetor, Vicon * JD. below I have listed questions for each and things I like & dislike about each of them. Please let me know if you have some of this equipment and how it performs.

*About my planned uses. *

We currently harvest our own hay at this time, will be looking into getting into full operation once I have more reliable equipment. Grass types in our area are Bermuda, KR Bluestem, Gordo Bluestem, Johnson Grass sometimes this type gets vines in them under certain conditions. As to tractor size we currently have 140 hp available in a reliable JD green tractor. The soil types on my property & many in area is Blackland Gumbo.

*What I have experienced. *

We started out with Sickle Mower conditioners, the old NH brands, reliable but pain with ant mounds in our soil types. We sold it to a neighbor & it is still going at this time. We purchased a JD 1460 Mower conditioner and were relying on that for quite a while until the grenade went off in the cutter bar gearbox. Purchased a JD 1470 & 1460 from a neighbor that wasn't in use any more for cheap and refurbished the 1470 with parts from all of them. this cutter has been in use for about 5 years now, minor issues with the Cutter Bar Gearbox until this past weekend when another grenade went off in the Cutter bar Gearbox. My main issues with these cutters is the dive side & end side big bonnets. they create so much vibration that they shear bolts, & break skid plates & weldments causing the bonnet to come in contact with the next nearest bonnets. I am tired of this issue as you could probably agree. This type of gear box was designed by Kuhn and are meant for the scrap pile from my experience. which has me considering moving to a replacement for next hay season. We have finished out last cut for the year and will possibly make a purchase in the off season.

*Disc Cutters.*

I have been researching a lot of these. My main concern is of coarse the Cutter Gear Box & drive type ( Means of power transfer between Cutter Heads)

*Lely / Vermeer Cutters*

I have never seen one of these cutters in person. I have been looking at them on the net and watching videos. I am somewhat keen on the power transfer of these cutters as they use a shaft and not a gear mechanism to transfer power to cutting heads. It looks robust however a shaft would seem to be vurnable to twisting off easily. They every mention it about being the safety factor, are there multi shafts or 1 single shaft that goes through the entire bar. How easily is the shaft to change once broken. Second feature I liked what the cutter bonnet safety shears. however they do not lift the bonnet clear of the others and there can still be a collision. How do these skid plates hold up? What is the cost of replacement bonnets modules, shear rings & Bar Drives Shafts? I also like how these units run Grease in seals modules in the cutter bar vs gear oil. Let me know you experiences.

*Krone Cutters*

These cutters look like they will work really well. I really like the driveline to the cutterbar being all gears and the design of the cutter bar with the bul gears being the primary source of power transfer instead of being a series setup like the Kuhn & JD but it still has gears in the Cutterbar and with past history I am skeptical about going back to same old style. I do like the Inertial disconnect system that lifts the damaged bonnet from the path of other bonnets. How easy are these to repairs, what is the cost of repairs for the gears & bonnets. Is the cutter bar built sturdier that others of similar design?

*Cass Cutters*

do not know if I like the two piece design cutter bar, how does it hold up. Is there a safety for the bonnets to be lifted up out of bonnet path when a failure happens and it shears the safety link?

*Drum Mowers*

Anyone that has use one for a while, how does the upper frame which carries the drums hold up. has there ever been any Broken welds on you units or frame damage. Has anyone ever had to change out a drum unit. I am thinking about buying an old PZ 5'6" unit to try out and see how it works out then maybe going to a larger Reese Mower is I don't decide on a Disc cutter.

I know this post is long winded but wanted to get it all out there and thank you for taking the time to read and reply. Your replies will be read & thought through.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Welcome to Hay talk

I bought a used Vermeer M7030 in 2010 that has been a good cutter. The v-belt drive protects the hex shaft from twisting in two pieces. I have hit an obstruction that put a small twist in the shaft but all I did was remove the tops of cutter heads and re-time them then go back to cutting. I like the quick change blades although the blades cost about twice as other brand blades. I had a brg go out in cutterbar this Summer which required 2 gears to be ordered from factory so I bought a nearly new Krone AM283 so as to continue cutting. Vermeer cutterbar is built in sections for easier repair

So far I like the Krone shaft drive(no v-belts) which came it handy cutting a long time customers coastal field that's been invaded with patches Lovegrass. I hate Lovegrass and I'm trying to persuade land owner to give the Lovegrass heaping helpings of glyphosate.

Both cutters are mounted on a caddy which makes cutter easier to attach to tractor and I think follow conture of ground better.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

HFTX said:


> *Good day all*,
> 
> I am possibly in the market for a new Hay Mower or Hay Mower / conditioner. I currently have a John Deere 1470 which was a decent machine in its time but not any more. I have been looking at a lot of the manufacturers out there and there is a lot of new technology out there but wanted to get a customer perspective on it, Dealers feel free to chime in if you have truly valid information but sales pitches are not welcome, only proven data & information please.
> 
> ...


Left out a couple of variables.....how many acres are you cuttin in a year, do you need a mower conditioner, and do you desire trailed type or 3 pt mount?


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

What dealers do you have nearby?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> Left out a couple of variables.....how many acres are you cuttin in a year, do you need a mower conditioner, and do you desire trailed type or 3 pt mount?


Agreed, however I like acres per day better as an indicator.


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

Thanks for in info on the Vermeer. I was concerned that there might be issue with those gears getting worn during a bearing failure but that is with all cutters. Was the cost of replacement gears & bearings reasonable. Gear with bearing for JD 1470 is 200 per gear and the bearing foes before the gear wears out. Thanks for the info for the Krone. they do look to be top of the line from where I am sitting.

As to the other questions. I wind up cutting about 200 -- 250 acres per year just on my own property, as I mentioned I could possibly be looking to be providing the service in future, To busy with job right now and I would do that In off time.

As to Mower conditioner, With the Texas heat that we have and dry weather it isn't a requirement. THe additional cost and wear parts associated with the conditioner I can go either way. If I get a great deal on a good one I wont pass it up is what I am saying. But 1st choice will be just a mower.

The Mower can be trailed or 3 point, doesn't matter. plenty of tractor for it. If it is trailed I prefer the 2 point attachment & Pivot gearbox that most units feature now a days. I do like the aspect of a center pivot trailed mower, would make cutting very convenient but convenience always comes with added cost. The property that I usually cut isn't all that level, it is hilly with some terraces in it that I am working on removing. With I would say I prefer the trailed type but with the 3-point ones I don't have 2 more tires to worry about.

I Have New Holland, Kubota & Case IH near me. I also have Kuhn, Krone & Vicon Dealers near me.

Does any one know if they make a 3 blade mod for the Krone Cutters? Friend of mine just started running a krone and had a vicon before that, said the Vicon would cut circles around the krone until the grenade went off into he cutter bar that is like the old Kuhn design.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

3550 Kuhn or any in that series, great machines.


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## krone.1 (Jul 28, 2013)

"Does any one know if they make a 3 blade mod for the Krone Cutters? "

With the three blade design the discs have to rotate counter to each other. Adjoining discs can't turn in the same direction or they will hit. That is why all Vicon mowers have an even number of discs. We have cutterbars that use both odd and even numbers of discs. It is also possible to change the rotation of our discs. So if you want to bring the crop into the center, it is possible to do that.


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

I have experience with Krone and New Holland. I would choose Krone.


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

Troy,

Thanks for the info. it is starting to look that way. the NH sport somewhat the same design as the Lely & Vermeer bars what kind of issues have you had with the New Holland?


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

*With the three blade design the discs have to rotate counter to each other. Adjoining discs can't turn in the same direction or they will hit. That is why all Vicon mowers have an even number of discs. We have cutterbars that use both odd and even numbers of discs. It is also possible to change the rotation of our discs. So if you want to bring the crop into the center, it is possible to do that.*

How is it possible to change the rotation of your disc, is there access panels in the cutter bar to relocate the head from one spur gear to the other or is it a design within the cutting head that does this? as to the reason I was asking this question. the 3 blades appeal to me because there is always a blade in the cut path for each disc. this also helps in reducing the loading on bearings and wear on disc head. But it isn't a necessary if the Krone stands up to the use. are the spur gears easily replaceable in the cutter bar or does the entire bar have to be disassembled. Are the bearings that the Spur Gears are on replaceable individually or do you have to replace the entire gear?Is there any way you can send the exploded views of cutter bar & Skid frame so I can see how the thing is assembled & supported on the frame? What is the thickness of the Cutter Bar Gear Box & associated skid plate or are they one piece unlike my current JD1470. With the Easy Cut bonnets how difficult is it to replace shear pin once the safety has been activated?


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

HFTX said:


> Troy,
> 
> Thanks for the info. it is starting to look that way. the NH sport somewhat the same design as the Lely & Vermeer bars what kind of issues have you had with the New Holland?


I hope I don't curse myself but I have not had any issues with the new holland. Both have their positives. The krone mower gave me a very smooth cut over a wide rpm range. The krone also ran lighter. The new holland has to be operated at rated rpm to give a smooth cut. Also, the inside and outside turtles cut lower than the others. Why, I don't know. Probably has something to with the lift of the grass. I traded the krone for the new holland and I wished I hadn't. Just my opinion.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

HFTX said:


> *With the three blade design the discs have to rotate counter to each other. Adjoining discs can't turn in the same direction or they will hit. That is why all Vicon mowers have an even number of discs. We have cutterbars that use both odd and even numbers of discs. It is also possible to change the rotation of our discs. So if you want to bring the crop into the center, it is possible to do that.*
> 
> How is it possible to change the rotation of your disc, is there access panels in the cutter bar to relocate the head from one spur gear to the other or is it a design within the cutting head that does this? as to the reason I was asking this question. the 3 blades appeal to me because there is always a blade in the cut path for each disc. this also helps in reducing the loading on bearings and wear on disc head. But it isn't a necessary if the Krone stands up to the use. are the spur gears easily replaceable in the cutter bar or does the entire bar have to be disassembled. Are the bearings that the Spur Gears are on replaceable individually or do you have to replace the entire gear?Is there any way you can send the exploded views of cutter bar & Skid frame so I can see how the thing is assembled & supported on the frame? What is the thickness of the Cutter Bar Gear Box & associated skid plate or are they one piece unlike my current JD1470. With the Easy Cut bonnets how difficult is it to replace shear pin once the safety has been activated?


You stated 200-250 acres a year, is that 40 acres x 5 or 60 x 4 or 200 x 4 (or 5) etc. if its the latter, I would opt for a bigger mower being you have the tractor. But I suspect it's one of the other. It sounds like you may be falling for the gimmick of a three blade design. Not that it's gimmicky, it's a valid design, but I think your worries may be in the wrong place. Never having operated a 3 blade design, I may have no idea wth I'm talking about, but I can tell you that in the last 9 years, I've never had a problem with a fella, a kuhn or a Deere in terms of needing hub protection.....but my fields are kept clean. All of the above mentioned cut very well with the Deere being the most robust. If krone had a drawbar mower conditioner, in my price range, that's what I would buy.....wasn't one in stock close by so I bought the Deere. I have always been pleased with kuhn products, their mower is no exception.....
Quick change blades in our sandy soil would be nice to have.


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## krone.1 (Jul 28, 2013)

Hopefully this is the view you were wanting?










The European mowers are set up to bring all the crop to the center. In North America they are set up to spread the crop out wide. There is an offset on the modules and depending on the way they are clocked determines which gear they drive off of and the rotation. On the safecut equipped mower there are left and right hubs so it is necessary to make sure they are in the correct position. It isn't that difficult to change the rotation, probably a couple of hours....

The bearings ARE replaceable in the main drive gears. There is an external snap ring that locks it in place in the drive gear. You have to destroy the old bearing to get it out. The new bearing will lock in place when you install it.

On our EC mowers there is an access plate on the outboard end of the cutterbar. The modules are removable from the top. There is a clamping bolt that holds an upper and lower bushing in place, remove the bolt and the bushings and slide the gear (s) out the end of the cutterbar.

To replace the shear pins, remove the 4 cover bolts, screw the hub back down and install 2 sets of shear pins. I have never replaced a set in the field. Our wide cutterbar protects the disc very well, both on the front and rear. Customers have told me they aren't hard to replace.

Both the cutterbar housing and the skid plates are 5mm.


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

My area is 70 acres @ 3-4 Cuts a year is the weather is right. But also possibly looking to go commercial / Custom on small scale. Mower is the week part.

Reason for hub protection is to keep damages to minimum. 50% of the property is in flood plain and when we have a good year of hay we usually get a small amount of drift wood in the patch. which if you catch a bad piece it will take out a gear or more a bar. As to the Kuhn I haven't considered at all because they are the same design as the bar that I have now, that is who designed it for Deere.


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

*Hopefully this is the view you were wanting?*



> *Hopefully this is the view you were wanting?*


that's the view I was looking for and thank you for the explanation. I was afraid that would be the only way that the spur gears were removable but I can see that providing a stronger Cutter Gearbox.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

HFTX said:


> My area is 70 acres @ 3-4 Cuts a year is the weather is right. But also possibly looking to go commercial / Custom on small scale. Mower is the week part.
> 
> Reason for hub protection is to keep damages to minimum. 50% of the property is in flood plain and when we have a good year of hay we usually get a small amount of drift wood in the patch. which if you catch a bad piece it will take out a gear or more a bar. As to the Kuhn I haven't considered at all because they are the same design as the bar that I have now, that is who designed it for Deere.


I'd look at the trailed new holland disc mower, doesn't have a conditioner. The shock pro hubs will save you in a feild like this. If you knew you would be cutting clean fields I would go with a krone but I do not know how the krone hubs work so that is why I'm recommending a NH for your situation


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Krone will be your best investment. They are tough and heavy built, not easy to break. I've hit some rocks and chunks of wood with mine and no damage. It just finished it's 18th season. Not to be smartalec here, if you know that there is the chance that stuff could be in the field wouldn't it be prudent to jump on the 4 wheeler and go look? A few minutes looking could save a big $$$$$$ repair bill, even with shear hubs it's around 50 bucks and some downtime. Granted it is not that much and about 20 minutes to replace, but on a 95 to 100 degree day think of the aggravation.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

If you've got stuff that might shear off hubs, stay away from the Kuhns... they mill a groove into the driveshaft directly above the bearing below where the turtle bolts on... if you hit anything substantial with them, it shears snaps the shaft off and the turtle and shaft top gets tossed out the back. Since Kuhn no longer sells the bearings and shafts and housings separate for the top service hubs, you get to plunk down about $250 bucks every time one shears off...




New Holland is shaft drive with splined stub shafts between each independent gearbox underneath each turtle... The NH mowers use a shear disk that is quick, easy, and pretty cheap to replace... The NH mowers don't raise the turtle up out of the path of the adjoining ones, so if they get out of time they can hit and supposedly "get knocked back into time" until you can stop.




Krone uses a roll pin that shears off if you hit something, and then the blade holder spins up a threaded portion to raise it out of the path of the adjoining disks... probably the cheapest/quickest fix...





There's a thread on here where I share all my experience with Zweegers drum mowers... and we discuss pros and cons of other mowers as well...
http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/23736-drum-mowers/page-2#entry217378
Later! OL JR


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

Sometimes hard to see in the thick 8' grass but we do check fields when able but it would be mostly a safety feature. I think I will have to go to Krone dealer and start looking in person now.


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## krone.1 (Jul 28, 2013)

Just to clarify.. The Safecut hubs and quick attach blades are only available on our EC and ECR series of cutterbars. Our AM series mowers have bolt on blades and standard hubs. I don't think I was clear on that in my previous post. Also, the AM cutterbar does not have the access plate on the outboard end of the cutterbar. The gears are removed through an access on the bottom of the inboard side of the cutterbar. It also has a one piece bushing that holds the idler gear in place.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

I think a NH H6830 trailed mower would suit you very well with its individual modules and shear hubs.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Welcome to haytalk. Sorry to hear about your 1470. I personally really like those series of mowers. I still have the 1360 purchased on this farm new in '91 and its been doing custom work for the last 11 years. Just added my uncles 1360 to the collection this year. Would really like it if they would build them again but since they don't I bought a new JD 630 a few years ago and have been very happy with it except for the design of the tongue.


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## HFTX (Oct 10, 2015)

*IH 1586*,

I can see the dislike of the tounge, that style of attachment has been around forever but I really like the 2 point attachment method they have now with the pivot gearbox, less Shaft & U-Joint issues to worry about.

*Discbinedr*,

I took a look at that design, it does appeal to me however I dislike how the hub just go to free spin and doesn't get moved out of the path of the other heads. seams like you would loose multiple if it isn't noticed in a timely manner and sometimes I think Murphy has a taste for the Hay Patch. Out of curiosity, when you shear a shock hub what are the repair costs to get back in service per hub? I do like their shaft design though, less large gears and I believe they have a thicker gearbox. I will be looking into this along with the Krone cutters.

*Krone1*

Thanks for the clarification again. I am very keen on the Safety hub feature and something that I am considering.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

NH hub repair is around $45 although as you suggested it does tend to take out the adjacent ones. Far as I know Krone is the only one that actually moves up out of the way.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

HFTX said:


> *IH 1586*,
> 
> I can see the dislike of the tounge, that style of attachment has been around forever but I really like the 2 point attachment method they have now with the pivot gearbox, less Shaft & U-Joint issues to worry about.
> 
> ...


The point I was making on the tongue design on the 630 was the angle they build it. Good for road travel, everything is right behind you. Bad cause you cant make a left turn when folded.


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