# Diesel up overnight



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Up .15 on overnight trading.

Attack on Saudi refinery with drones.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/iran-linked-drone-saudi-oil-attack-damage-satellite-images


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## IHCman (Aug 27, 2011)

I think Iran needs to be taught a lesson. I think air strikes on their navy and lauching points for these drones or cruise missles. They should have been taught a lesson when they bombed the first oil tanker.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

IHCman said:


> I think Iran needs to be taught a lesson. I think air strikes on their navy and lauching points for these drones or cruise missles. They should have been taught a lesson when they bombed the first oil tanker.


A glass bowl would end it.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

IHCman said:


> I think Iran needs to be taught a lesson. I think air strikes on their navy and lauching points for these drones or cruise missles. They should have been taught a lesson when they bombed the first oil tanker.


While I'd love to blow their military off the face of the earth, that's exactly what Iran wants us to do. The Mulahs don't care how much of their military we destroy, because they'll still have their palaces and money. If we attack them, it'll look like we're picking on them to the rest of the world and get them sympathy. We're better off forming alliances with reasonable surrounding Muslim countries (like Jordan) and isolating Iran until they're overthrown from within.I think the Iranian people are sick of this. Their currency is terribly devalued, their pension funds are bankrupt and they can't pay their military. 
Now if we are attacked directly, that's a different story.
But I think Iran is desperate and keeping up the maximum pressure campaign will eventually topple their evil empire and their proxies.

Best thing we can do is become energy independent and make their oil worthless and the Straights of Hormuz a navigation channel barely worth paying attention to.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

A lot of the mess in the middle east can be traced back to that inept GA boy, Jimmy Carter.

The Shah of Iran was a pro-Western leader who had the rug pulled out from under him by Carter (and others). This story is a pretty good primer on the subject: https://www.newsmax.com/larrybell/ayatollah-oil-prices-reagan/2018/02/05/id/841485/

And here we are, forty years, thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars later. Still engaged in a never ending war in the middle east.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

RockmartGA said:


> A lot of the mess in the middle east can be traced back to that inept GA boy, Jimmy Carter.
> 
> The Shah of Iran was a pro-Western leader who had the rug pulled out from under him by Carter (and others). This story is a pretty good primer on the subject: https://www.newsmax.com/larrybell/ayatollah-oil-prices-reagan/2018/02/05/id/841485/
> 
> And here we are, forty years, thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars later. Still engaged in a never ending war in the middle east.


I think the mess was created when the CIA orchestrated a coup to overthrow the Iranian government. The shah was also a quite brutal 'dictator' who stifled political opposition with secret police, torture, and executions. A real stand up guy.

If you want to read an interesting primer, this is it...along with the declassified CIA docs linked in it as well.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/64-years-later-cia-finally-releases-details-of-iranian-coup-iran-tehran-oil/


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I don’t know about the politics of it all, and don’t care. Didn’t I read a while ago that the US is actually exporting more liquid dinosaur bones than we are importing?


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I don't know about the politics of it all, and don't care. Didn't I read a while ago that the US is actually exporting more liquid dinosaur bones than we are importing?


I know we're the largest producer of oil and I thought were the largest exporter as well. I think we took the number one spot 6 or 7 years ago, largely due to the shale boom.

Iran was on their best behavior until we broke the nuclear deal with them. Now they have no incentive to behave, it's hurt the peace process, and they're ramping up their uranium enrichment.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> I know we're the largest producer of oil and I thought were the largest exporter as well. I think we took the number one spot 6 or 7 years ago, largely due to the shale boom.
> 
> Iran was on their best behavior until we broke the nuclear deal with them. Now they have no incentive to behave, it's hurt the peace process, and they're ramping up their uranium enrichment.


"Now they have no incentive to behave"?

Seriously? I'd accept that kind of behavior from a child after they get their bicycle taken away because they came home after dark, but we're talking about the leaders of a nation here.

"Iran was on their best behavior"?

Huh??? You mean the nation that uses proxies to shoot rockets randomly into Israel, killing innocent people? The one that blew up the Marine barracks years ago killing hundreds of US Marines?

"Ramping up uranium enrichment"? You mean despite being told that's not allowed? Even after Obama gave them pallets of cash?

I have no trouble understanding what an ambush killer rattlesnake looks like. It looks like the death-to-non-believers-caliphate of the leaders of Iran.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> A lot of the mess in the middle east can be traced back to that inept GA boy, Jimmy Carter.
> 
> The Shah of Iran was a pro-Western leader who had the rug pulled out from under him by Carter (and others). This story is a pretty good primer on the subject: https://www.newsmax.com/larrybell/ayatollah-oil-prices-reagan/2018/02/05/id/841485/
> 
> And here we are, forty years, thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars later. Still engaged in a never ending war in the middle east.


Wait a minute --- The Shah was a m'fer too. I have a friend who went to prison for opposing the Shah and then again for opposing the Ayatollah. He was tortured by both regimes and was conscripted to fight in the Iran-Iraq War. His response to people who claim he screwed up by opposing the Shah was "just because the new guy is an SOB doesn't change the fact that previous guy was one too."

Wow -- you need to stop following Newsmax if you believe some of the things you posted with regard to Iran pre-Trump.

I also wouldn't be shedding a tear for the Saudi's after what they did to Khashoggi --- and we turned a blind eye.

Iran is not about a caliphate. In fact, they have a more open society than many of the other Middle Eastern countries. The Saudis are some of the most oppressive (outside of actors like the Taliban and ISIS). The reason their currency is devalued is because we sanctioned them after we pulled out of the nuclear deal.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

The fact remains that one has to be a brutal SOB to rule a country in the Middle East. The fact also remains that if it were not for a big puddle of crude oil under that region, no one in the Western World would give a s**t that the Sunni's were killing the Shi'ites (or vice versa, or plug in the tribe of the day). Jimmy Carter believed his own "humanitarian" crap and the result was trading a brutal dictator that was a kinda / sorta ally to a regime that was anti-America.

Of course, back in the 80's, Saddam Hussein was an ally of the US. Not sure what he did to piss off the powers that be, but the US has spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives since the first Gulf War and here we are in 2019, still with troops on the ground.

Meanwhile, back in America, we have folks who can't figure out which bathroom to use. I've seen a lot of changes over the past six decades, and most of them are not good.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

RockmartGA said:


> The fact remains that one has to be a brutal SOB to rule a country in the Middle East. The fact also remains that if it were not for a big puddle of crude oil under that region, no one in the Western World would give a s**t that the Sunni's were killing the Shi'ites (or vice versa, or plug in the tribe of the day). Jimmy Carter believed his own "humanitarian" crap and the result was trading a brutal dictator that was a kinda / sorta ally to a regime that was anti-America.
> 
> Of course, back in the 80's, Saddam Hussein was an ally of the US. Not sure what he did to piss off the powers that be, but the US has spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives since the first Gulf War and here we are in 2019, still with troops on the ground.
> 
> Meanwhile, back in America, we have folks who can't figure out which bathroom to use. I've seen a lot of changes over the past six decades, and most of them are not good.


You're damn right about that. Sometimes I think all this crap we're arguing over is to distract us from the awful truth of what's really important-whatever that is. lol ???? 
I really like the idea of energy independence because it lessens the need for all these needless wars and boys my sons age losing body parts. 
Let all those violent tribes keep warring without us. To hell with them. Sometimes you just gotta step out of the way and let the 2 animals fight it out. Winner or loser be dammed. 
To anyone who thinks it's in America's interest to sell war machines...they'll still buy them.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> The fact remains that one has to be a brutal SOB to rule a country in the Middle East. The fact also remains that if it were not for a big puddle of crude oil under that region, no one in the Western World would give a s**t that the Sunni's were killing the Shi'ites (or vice versa, or plug in the tribe of the day). Jimmy Carter believed his own "humanitarian" crap and the result was trading a brutal dictator that was a kinda / sorta ally to a regime that was anti-America.
> 
> Of course, back in the 80's, Saddam Hussein was an ally of the US. Not sure what he did to piss off the powers that be, but the US has spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives since the first Gulf War and here we are in 2019, still with troops on the ground.
> 
> Meanwhile, back in America, we have folks who can't figure out which bathroom to use. I've seen a lot of changes over the past six decades, and most of them are not good.


I think you are way off base if you think nobody in the Western World would care about one group slaughtering another one if for no other reason because we're making serious bank providing the military hardware being used to kill both combatants and innocents.

How did Jimmy Carter's "humanitarian crap" depose the Shah? Not true.

Supporting a pro-US son of a bitch is still supporting a son of a bitch ...... we just get something for allowing a guy to torture his people IF we look the other way. Nothing to be proud of, that's for sure.

As far as bathrooms go, get over it. You have the freedom to pick your own bathroom. The world isn't made of of clones of yourself --- old white men like us are not the future.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> I think you are way off base if you think nobody in the Western World would care about one group slaughtering another one if for no other reason because we're making serious bank providing the military hardware being used to kill both combatants and innocents.
> 
> How did Jimmy Carter's "humanitarian crap" depose the Shah? Not true.
> 
> ...


It's this kind of reply that makes me understand how Trump won a large electoral majority, the senate is majority republican and the Supreme Court is majority conservative.
To hell with these damn sand monkeys feuding over mars-landscapes. Ain't worth ONE MORE of our precious children's lives or limbs.
My red line is Israel and they are armed to the teeth already. I don't worry much about them being attacked.
IMO, with a scant few biological exceptions born with 2 different reproductive organs, God created a man and a woman. Only 2 kinds of bathrooms needed.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

"As far as bathrooms go, get over it. You have the freedom to pick your own bathroom. The world isn't made of of clones of yourself --- old white men like us are not the future."[/quote]

Great talking point, but my bi-racial wife and bi-racial daughters would prefer not to go to the bathroom with biological males. Maybe old white men like you shouldn't assume you can speak for them. And yes, they are the future.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm just an old white male pondering how all this new gender liberalism will affect my straight white daughters' future. She just accepted an offer to play Field Hockey at Ohio University.
My wife and I are wondering when the first queer male pretending to be a female will show up and take someone like my daughters spot on the team? 
It's already happening at other schools. 
Where does this nonsense end?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

OhioHay said:


> "As far as bathrooms go, get over it. You have the freedom to pick your own bathroom. The world isn't made of of clones of yourself --- old white men like us are not the future."


Great talking point, but my bi-racial wife and bi-racial daughters would prefer not to go to the bathroom with biological males. Maybe old white men like you shouldn't assume you can speak for them. And yes, they are the future.

[/QUOTE]

Your wife and daughters are already going to the bathroom with the people you want them to fear and so are you. Plenty of them are biracial too.

You must be deciding on a person's "sex" by their general appearance unless you want to start checking genitals at the door.

I admit to being an old white man but the support for the LGBT community is stronger with people like your daughter than it is with my/our age group and that is the future, like it or not.

I didn't bring the bathroom issue into a discussion about diesel prices, either.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I'm just an old white male pondering how all this new gender liberalism will affect my straight white daughters' future. She just accepted an offer to play Field Hockey at Ohio University.
> My wife and I are wondering when the first queer male pretending to be a female will show up and take someone like my daughters spot on the team?
> It's already happening at other schools.
> Where does this nonsense end?


Pretending to be a female? Ask any woman about the "benefits" of being female. Not many.

Your daughter better not have the homophobia you're expressing here as she's likely to meet a number of men and women at OU. Be very afraid but be afraid she'll not come home with your view of the world.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> It's this kind of reply that makes me understand how Trump won a large electoral majority, the senate is majority republican and the Supreme Court is majority conservative.
> To hell with these damn sand monkeys feuding over mars-landscapes. Ain't worth ONE MORE of our precious children's lives or limbs.
> My red line is Israel and they are armed to the teeth already. I don't worry much about them being attacked.
> IMO, with a scant few biological exceptions born with 2 different reproductive organs, God created a man and a woman. Only 2 kinds of bathrooms needed.


Sand monkeys? Enough said. Using God as any part of a discussion after using that pejorative ends your argument.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Your wife and daughters are already going to the bathroom with the people you want them to fear and so are you. Plenty of them are biracial too.
> 
> You must be deciding on a person's "sex" by their general appearance unless you want to start checking genitals at the door.
> 
> ...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Sand monkeys? Enough said. Using God as any part of a discussion after using that pejorative ends your argument.


Yep I said that. Anyone who is proven to murder innocent people like was done on 9-11 isn't even a monkey. They're a lower form of animal, like a worm. 
It's an insult to the monkey. 
And don't blasphemy me, Mr old white man.
I have respect for people who live a respectful life, not the animals murdering said people or each other, or killing gays, stoning women. 
Like was said by someone above, some people think the place would be better off a glass bowl. While I won't go that far, I agree it's a basket case.

We have all the energy we need right here. No need to kiss their godless asses for their oil any longer. We can control our diesel fuel prices right here from home. Everyone wins. Less Americans die.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

OhioHay said:


> Draft Horse Hay said:
> 
> 
> > Your wife and daughters are already going to the bathroom with the people you want them to fear and so are you. Plenty of them are biracial too.
> ...


Being LGBT isn't a life style choice anymore than being black is. Being Christian, on the other hand, IS a choice.

Interestingly, it's predominantly men that have a problem with transgender women and only transwomen, not transmen. They disguise their discomfort by claiming it's about their concerns for women.

So the "females in your family" get to decide if they have to accept POC in THEIR bathrooms? What about JD's 'sand monkeys'? Are they allowed to use the same restrooms too or do the females in your family get to decide if they're allowed?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Yep I said that. Anyone who is proven to murder innocent people like was done on 9-11 isn't even a monkey. They're a lower form of animal, like a worm.
> It's an insult to the monkey.
> And don't blasphemy me, Mr old white man.
> I have respect for people who live a respectful life, not the animals murdering said people or each other, or killing gays, stoning women.
> ...


Proven? You have proof that all people of middle eastern descent are murderers? You clearly have no evidence beyond the actions of a minority yet you make a blanket accusation and then try to claim to have respect for people that lead a respectful life?

Ahh - so you admit we were always fighting and killing for oil, not democracy or WMD's eh? Perfect.

If we're controlling "diesel" (oil) prices from here at home, why did this thread even start up about higher diesel prices? Why? Because oil is a global commodity and the price is dictated by global demand/concerns regardless of where it's produced. If you think multinational oil companies are going to sell oil cheaper to the US because they pumped it from US properties, you're kidding yourself.

Jesus was a "sand monkey" (and a liberal). Think on that when you sit in church on Sunday.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Proven? You have proof that all people of middle eastern descent are murderers? You clearly have no evidence beyond the actions of a minority yet you make a blanket accusation and then try to claim to have respect for people that lead a respectful life?
> 
> Ahh - so you admit we were always fighting and killing for oil, not democracy or WMD's eh? Perfect.
> 
> ...


Obviously, anyone can see the "sand monkeys" I refer to are the warring tribes of uncivilized morons, that wont stop warring or worse yet, start killing Americans right here on our soil.



> " Ahh - so you admit we were always fighting and killing for oil, not democracy or WMD's eh? Perfect."


Perfect? Not what I said, but even if we were, I wouldn't want that since we have all the domestic energy we need. 
We don't need to be there-its like 2 wet hens fighting, no sense in getting in their way, just let em settle it on their own. 
And as far as selling them weapons, yeah, we need em to protect our homeland and our *civilized* allies. If they want to buy weapons for their battles over caves and wastelands so they have a cooler, cleaner place to beat up their multiple wives, then let em buy whatever they want...as long as its non nuclear. :lol: 
We CANT keep those fools from killing each other...but no nuclear fallout.

The reason diesel prices are "up overnight" is because corrupt Oil cartels and OPEC control pricing. My point is to stop buying oil from these cartels, like the Iranian Revolutionary Guard, so we can stabilize our prices. Create American jobs, lower prices and get away from violent, toxic people. Its simple, less corruption and less transportation means lower prices.



> " Jesus was a "sand monkey" (and a liberal). Think on that when you sit in church on Sunday"


Hahahahahahahaha. How would you know? 
And keep your ad hominem/holier than thou attacks to yourself.
You aint no better than me or most anyone else here, either.
Aint much "christian" about you carrying on arguments with 4 different people in 2 or 3 different threads.....


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Being LGBT isn't a life style choice anymore than being black is.


My wife and I discuss ad nauseum. Being gay IS a choice. If it were a genetic defect, it would be non-existent as they are unable to reproduce and spread said defect.

And yes, I AM A CHRISTIAN. I've read the whole book, I know who wins in the end....


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

stack em up said:


> My wife and I discuss ad nauseum. Being gay IS a choice. If it were a genetic defect, it would be non-existent as they are unable to reproduce and spread said defect.
> 
> And yes, I AM A CHRISTIAN. I've read the whole book, I know who wins in the end....


In some, maybe many cases it may not be as much a choice as we would like to think it is. Seems a person can be born wired to think that way. That is not an excuse for their behavior, it is still wrong, no different than if a person had a natural inclination to steal. Society hasn't gotten around to 'accepting' that yet. Well, maybe they have.

We have a mess with the queers here, locally. Check out OC Pride. Queers celebrating what they are publicly, in one of the most conservative towns in country. That these people are the way they are doesn't bother me so much, it's they fact they are *ell bent on making other people approve of what they are that irks me so bad.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Being LGBT isn't a life style choice anymore than being black is.


Sorry, I gotta call BS on this one.

Except for very rare cases where a person's chromosomes are defect, a person is born male or female.


There are effeminate males just as there are masculine females. An effeminate male can still sire children just as the masculine female can bear children.
That is the base biology and no amount of trying to call yourself he/she/zee/they/them or whatever the sick sociopaths try to conjure up will change that.

Now, a surgeon can alter soft tissue and one can fool their body by taking hormones, but you are born male or female and that is that.

Back in the 70's, when the "gay rights" movement was cranking up, they claimed that what they did in the privacy of their own bedroom was their business and the government should butt out (pun intended). I think most Americans agreed with that sentiment, even though they disagreed with the lifestyle choice. Fast forward to today, and we have homosexuals who sued a baker because he refused to bake them a wedding cake. That's a long way from "what we do in the bedroom is nobody's business".

And today, the sociopaths think it is okay to give young children medicines that will block puberty in a sick attempt to transition their child to the opposite sex. No other way to describe this but sick. Sick, sick, sick.....


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Being LGBT isn't a life style choice anymore than being black is. Being Christian, on the other hand, IS a choice.
> 
> Interestingly, it's predominantly men that have a problem with transgender women and only transwomen, not transmen. They disguise their discomfort by claiming it's about their concerns for women.
> 
> ...


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> Sorry, I gotta call BS on this one.
> 
> Except for very rare cases where a person's chromosomes are defect, a person is born male or female.
> 
> ...


Call BS as much as you want --- your understanding of "base biology" seems to be pretty simplified. If can't imagine what exposure to hormones in utero can do to a fetus, go back and revisit how a heifer ends up a freemartin. There's a lot more going on than having a penis or not.

"What we do in the bedroom is nobody's business" --- that was because being gay was an actual crime at the time. People were being arrested. Think about the law coming into your bedroom to make sure you and your wife were having sex the "legal way" or you both could be arrested. Could be as basic as, if you don't have evidence you're trying to actively procreate, it's a crime. I don't see that part of history as any proof that being LGBT is a choice.

That said, I don't give an F is it is nature, nurture or a personal choice. We can't justify discriminating against someone for being LGBT anymore than we can for being Christian. In fact, the latter is truly based on no evidence whatsoever but we still protect the right to believe.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

"We have a mess with the queers here, locally. Check out OC Pride. Queers celebrating what they are publicly, in one of the most conservative towns in country. That these people are the way they are doesn't bother me so much, it's they fact they are *ell bent on making other people approve of what they are that irks me so bad."

Nobody can MAKE you approve of something so that's just drivel. Don't approve of OC Pride? Don't participate. Pretty simple. If seeing "them" bothers you, then "the way they are" DOES bother you.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

stack em up said:


> My wife and I discuss ad nauseum. Being gay IS a choice. If it were a genetic defect, it would be non-existent as they are unable to reproduce and spread said defect.
> 
> And yes, I AM A CHRISTIAN. I've read the whole book, I know who wins in the end....


I've read the whole book too --- plenty of times. There is no winner in the end. There is just the end.

You assume that:
1) if being LGBT is not a choice, it must be a genetic defect
2) genetic defects that interfere with reproductive ability disappear because they can't be passed on (so there must be no genetic defects making males or females infertile, correct?)


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Obviously, anyone can see the "sand monkeys" I refer to are the warring tribes of uncivilized morons, that wont stop warring or worse yet, start killing Americans right here on our soil.
> 
> Perfect? Not what I said, but even if we were, I wouldn't want that since we have all the domestic energy we need.
> We don't need to be there-its like 2 wet hens fighting, no sense in getting in their way, just let em settle it on their own.
> ...


I tried to look up sand monkeys and could come up with no "obvious" referral to the warring tribes of whatever. It's clear what you meant.

Oil cartels control pricing? If the US is energy independent and has such a great supply of oil, the cartel pricing should have no effect unless you're saying we are part of the oil cartel.

In fact, US oil production drove down the price of oil over the last 5+ yrs or so

Hmmm -

A Galilean Jew living in Palestine 2000 yrs ago? Looked like other men in that area - the same ones you are calling sand monkeys.

Jesus as a liberal ---- have you actually read anything he said? Now THAT is pretty obvious.

Christians don't argue? I guess that's the lost 11th commandment "Thou shalt not challenge my dogma lest thou be cast into the fiery pool of iniquity." I find that comment of yours pretty hilarious.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

OhioHay said:


> As for the lbgtq, I disagree. There are too many examples of a person being straight then becoming homosexual and vice versa. There are too many examples of people transitioning only to transition back after a period of time. If these characteristics were like race, that would not be possible. I believe that gearclash is right that people are born with preferences and feelings, but preferences and feelings are not permanent like your race is. When my youngest daughter was little, she loved onions. She would eat them like apples. Now that preference has changed and she won't eat them at all. I will also say that sex, not gender, is also permanent. No matter how you dress, what hormone you take, or what surgery you have, you dna does not change. The born that way argument doesn't hold water when you test it against race. Maybe you are open to race identity as a concept?
> 
> I still wondering about what you have against women and their rights? You answered by basically saying that only men concerned about transgenders bring up womens rights. Believe it or not, their are women that are concerned. There are women, both young and old concerned about it, but you just want to brush it under the rug.
> 
> ...


Where to start?

First --- the straight people "becoming gay" is not like "finding Jesus". People don't just go "Hey, that sounds like fun, having people treat me as a 2nd class citizen so I think I'll do that." Same thing with the transgender community. There's nothing beneficial short of their overall mental health that comes from it because our society CHOOSES to ostracize them for who they are. The number of cases you speak of is a paltry minutiae when compared to the total number of LGBT people. That's no proof.

Ahh - so being gay is like eating onions? So many layers.

Your point regarding DNA is saying that anything short of your genetic makeup must be a choice and that's just not true. BTW - I said being black not of a certain race because .... "Race is a social construct derived mainly from perceptions conditioned by events of recorded history, and it has no basic biological reality."

I'm still wondering what women's rights you are claiming I'm against. The right to .....? Discriminate? You bet I'm against that.

Fact - your wife and daughters are exponentially at more risk from members of your extended family, clergy, coaches and other people in positions of power known to them than they are from a trans man or woman peeing in the same room behind a stall door.

My words - "PREDOMINANTLY men ....." not the same as "only men" and I stand by my statement. It allows for some women to be wrongly concerned but there are far more women supporting the transgender bathroom issue than there are men.

I can find no place where I claimed your family was racist but you can pretend if you need to.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> My wife and I discuss ad nauseum. Being gay IS a choice. If it were a genetic defect, it would be non-existent as they are unable to reproduce and spread said defect.
> 
> And yes, I AM A CHRISTIAN. I've read the whole book, I know who wins in the end....


It's really not, and the argument you've presented here represents a fundamental misunderstanding of genetics. Were it as simple as a 'genetic defect,' the gene would have been inherited from heterosexual parents anyway, so your argument is defeated right there. Gay people do reproduce, but when they do, they don't make little gay babies. It's much, much more complicated than that, which I'll get into now, so try to stay with me here.

While no smoking gun for a 'gay gene' has been identified, there is a growing body of scientific evidence for a biological factor. Very recently, new research was published in Science, one of the most prestigious science journals in the world, in which the authors found multiple loci implicated in same sex behavior, indicating that nonheterosexual behavior is polygenic (meaning a phenotype is influenced by more than one gene), as are other behavioral traits. This study identified 5 new genetic loci correlating with same sex activity--2 in males and females, 2 in males only, and 1 in women only. That article is linked here:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693

As early as 1993, male homosexuality was linked to a section of the X chromosome. Then, as gene sequencing evolved and we were able to sequence the entire human genome, a gene called SLITRK6 was identified that is active in a certain part of the brain that differs in size between people who are homosexual and heterosexual. There are also differences in the amount of gray matter and white matter in the brains of homosexuals vs. heterosexuals.

There are other gene candidates as well. A gene in mice was identified that, when deleted, caused the female mice to prefer female odors and mount female mice rather than male mice. Another study showed that disruption of the gene that is expressed in the brain for pheromone recognition, made female mice start acting like male mice, and when the gene was absent in males, they did not display male-male aggression and initiated sexual behaviors towards both females and males.

It gets even more complicated, because even though your DNA might say you're a boy or girl, there are congenital defects that make you otherwise. Males with androgen insensitivity syndrome develop female genitalia though they are genetically male (with X and Y chromosome), and they're attracted to men. The evidence here suggests if the prenatal brain isn't masculinized with testosterone, the boy will grow up to desire men.

Likewise, females with congenital adrenal hyperplasia are exposed to abnormally high levels of male hormones in utero which can masculinize their brain and increase odds of being a lesbian.

There's more to this too. A study in rats found that hormonal manipulation during pregnancy produce offspring with homosexual behavior.

The next part is probably a little 'un-PC' of me, but I'll say it anyway. There is a gay phenotype--it's not 100% exclusive to them all, but it is predominant to the extent that it's a stereotype. This phenotype is consistent in that it transcends culture and ethnicity. Second, the phenotype can be observed in children even before they even understand what their sexuality is. The phenotype is what pegs our 'gaydar.' The phenotype is what's most suggestive of a biological factor because there are physical emotion traits highly associated to gay people that you can't just pick up from choice.

If you ask virtually any gay person when they chose to be gay, they will tell you they were born that way. That they could tell they were different from the other boys even as children. Then as they got older and tried to like girls, they couldn't. In fact, their affinity was for boys. Most will admit to being ashamed and embarrassed of this so they might have gone ahead and tried to be into girls anyways. They might have tried to date girls, or pretended to like girls, or maybe did nothing at all.

Of course then there's sexual fetishes. There's hetero men who can be with other men, or women, or animals...you name it, it exists. But this isn't compelling justification or evidence that sexual orientation is just some switch that you flip whenever you feel like. There's some unfathomable sexual fetishes (maybe they are part of some kind of mental illness?). It's quite disgusting. Fetishes should not be conflated with sexual orientation.

More fodder for hopefully some new discussion material with your wife.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> It's really not, and the argument you've presented here represents a fundamental misunderstanding of genetics. Were it as simple as a 'genetic defect,' the gene would have been inherited from heterosexual parents anyway, so your argument is defeated right there. Gay people do reproduce, but when they do, they don't make little gay babies. It's much, much more complicated than that, which I'll get into now, so try to stay with me here.
> 
> While no smoking gun for a 'gay gene' has been identified, there is a growing body of scientific evidence for a biological factor. Very recently, new research was published in Science, one of the most prestigious science journals in the world, in which the authors found multiple loci implicated in same sex behavior, indicating that nonheterosexual behavior is polygenic (meaning a phenotype is influenced by more than one gene), as are other behavioral traits. This study identified 5 new genetic loci correlating with same sex activity--2 in males and females, 2 in males only, and 1 in women only. That article is linked here:https://science.sciencemag.org/content/365/6456/eaat7693
> 
> ...


tl;dr


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Have your wife read it to you. It can be a sexy bed time story. Minus the sexy part.


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

Yes... Diesel did go up... Must be the trucking....LOL


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> Have your wife read it to you. It can be a sexy bed time story. Minus the sexy part.


I'm just in a pissy enough mood from combining corn in sloppy mud I might be taking things the wrong way. Surely you didn't insinuate I can't read multiple paragraphs? Sorry if you didn't, I'm just crabby this morning waiting for combine and semis to warm up.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

I took it as if your wife read it to you at bed time it'll put you right to sleep. I think he was insinuating that the long reply was full of pretty much nothing. lol

Greasy mud at corn harvest sucks. Been there done that and got the shirt. It'll be better next year. Keep yer head up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> I tried to look up sand monkeys and could come up with no "obvious" referral to the warring tribes of whatever. It's clear what you meant.
> Oil cartels control pricing? If the US is energy independent and has such a great supply of oil, the cartel pricing should have no effect unless you're saying we are part of the oil cartel.
> In fact, US oil production drove down the price of oil over the last 5+ yrs or so
> Hmmm -
> ...


I see....... You find one word someone says and then twist your words into it to make them into something they're not.
Just For the record, of course I'm not calling Jesus anything of the sort. I'm referring to the groups of uncivilized people killing each other for prehistoric reasons we can't stop over lands we have no use for, but you already know that.....
Now you've started the escalation process. Just like we see all shifty liberals doing....

Here's how it works: I call these low-life's warring over lands they want to control while raping women, murdering gays and Christians something negative and now you've got me calling Jesus a "sand monkey"
......ohhhhh-k, gotcha....
Textbook liberal: When losing or lying, they turn to twisting our words, putting words in people's mouths. Touche...CNN has trained you well.
Next they call you racists.......quintessential text book LIBERAL tactics.....always got that word, RACIST, as their ultimate weapon.
You are no different!

It's like when Trump called MS13 gang members "animals". Within a few hours, liberal Nancy Pelosi finds a camera to say "all people are children of God", effectively accusing Trump of being a racist.

Textbook liberal tactics.

Just like the old "glad to hear you stopped beating your wife"....

See what I mean??


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Ox76 said:


> I took it as if your wife read it to you at bed time it'll put you right to sleep. I think he was insinuating that the long reply was full of pretty much nothing. lol
> 
> Greasy mud at corn harvest sucks. Been there done that and got the shirt. It'll be better next year. Keep yer head up.


 The long reply was full of information and scientific findings on the matter. You should read it too. But I know the feeling when you just don't feel like reading a bunch of words, especially when the subject matter is pretty dry.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Is it just me or has this discussion got outta hand? First timer to haytalk doesn't need to see this crap, maybe it should be in the boiler room.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I'm just in a pissy enough mood from combining corn in sloppy mud I might be taking things the wrong way. Surely you didn't insinuate I can't read multiple paragraphs? Sorry if you didn't, I'm just crabby this morning waiting for combine and semis to warm up.


Nah, the thought hadn't even crossed my mind to insinuate something like that. I come in peace  I was insinuating to treat it like an audio book and make your wife the narrator, lol. Reading kind of sucks when you're tired or don't feel like reading, happens to me all the time.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

carcajou said:


> Is it just me or has this discussion got outta hand? First timer to haytalk doesn't need to see this crap, maybe it should be in the boiler room.


Done


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

carcajou said:


> Is it just me or has this discussion got outta hand? First timer to haytalk doesn't need to see this crap, maybe it should be in the boiler room.


Out of hand is an understatement. Absolute shit show more like it


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

It surely is bizarre. Never have I seen or heard of political division the way it is today in our country. The unfounded attacks by the left have half our country's people reeling saying "What the hell did I do?!?" Yet the whole time the left will play the victim while they're attacking the right. HUH?!?

The powers that be have won already. A nation divided is a nation easily conquered. Plus, with the added diversion tactics they are free to pull whatever crap they always seem to do. I despise the whole mess and there's nothing any of us can do about it.

One of my biggest questions is after seeing the fruitcake liberals, ANTIFA, crazy ass feminists, etc. parading all over acting crazier than hell, how can any moderate, decent acting democrat still vote the same way? It's clear as day that the dems have gone over the edge and are loudly and proudly declaring socialism/communism as their running platform. What in the actual hell would cause the moderate democrats to continue to vote democrat? At the very least change and identify as an independent or something!


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Ox76 said:


> One of my biggest questions is after seeing the fruitcake liberals, ANTIFA, crazy ass feminists, etc. parading all over acting crazier than hell, how can any moderate, decent acting democrat still vote the same way? It's clear as day that the dems have gone over the edge and are loudly and proudly declaring socialism/communism as their running platform. What in the actual hell would cause the moderate democrats to continue to vote democrat? At the very least change and identify as an independent or something!


Because it's always a two-way street, there's never just one way. Democrats say exactly the same thing you're saying about the Republicans and conservatives. And they ask the very same question as you, 'how can moderate Republicans continue to support somebody as unhinged and unstable as Donald Trump?"

I am an independent and a moderate, I refuse to register to any political party. The evolving state of politic identity drove me there. I also refuse to put my allegiances to any party over country. I think this is where Democrats, and especially Republicans have failed badly. Donald Trump is a menace to democracy and a lawful society, and he needs to go. Even our most celebrated military generals are saying this. The Republicans have lost all credibility with Trump. Put in any moderate Republican, that's fine. Same for a Democrat. I am so tired of the extreme partisanship bickering, name calling, and ideologies that are plaguing this nation. We are not a nation of extreme left or right; most people are centrists or independent.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ox76 said:


> It surely is bizarre. Never have I seen or heard of political division the way it is today in our country. The unfounded attacks by the left have half our country's people reeling saying "What the hell did I do?!?" Yet the whole time the left will play the victim while they're attacking the right. HUH?!?
> 
> The powers that be have won already. A nation divided is a nation easily conquered. Plus, with the added diversion tactics they are free to pull whatever crap they always seem to do. I despise the whole mess and there's nothing any of us can do about it.
> 
> One of my biggest questions is after seeing the fruitcake liberals, ANTIFA, crazy ass feminists, etc. parading all over acting crazier than hell, how can any moderate, decent acting democrat still vote the same way? It's clear as day that the dems have gone over the edge and are loudly and proudly declaring socialism/communism as their running platform. What in the actual hell would cause the moderate democrats to continue to vote democrat? At the very least change and identify as an independent or something!


OX, I believe what you are saying is true. 
I also believe that many moderate democrats are secretly running FAST away from the AOC/Bernie/Fauxcohontas/CNN extreme left wing that has taken over the democrat party.

Heck, anyone knows that Obama would be a "moderate" and JFK would be a Republican in today's world.

Just a side note: did you ever notice how "republicans getting along with democrats" or being "moderate" always means the republican caves into the demands of the democrat? When's the last time you saw it go the OTHER WAY? When's the last time you saw democrats give into the demands of a republican? We're always leaning "progressive". Always giving away more of our Judeo Christian values. Always allowing more lawlessness. Accepting more bizarre lifestyles while ridiculing traditional family values......

For years, and my father always used to say "democrat"= socialist and "liberal"= communist. Now its finally proven. I think the remaining moderate democrats are like "what the hell is going on"?

I find it interesting to see that in exit polling done at Trump rallies, some have been found to be as high as 20% democrat in attendance. I think some moderate democrats are going to sit home this election. Even they are surprised at how left the party is going.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> Because it's always a two-way street, there's never just one way. Democrats say exactly the same thing you're saying about the Republicans and conservatives. And they ask the very same question as you, 'how can moderate Republicans continue to support somebody as unhinged and unstable as Donald Trump?"
> 
> I am an independent and a moderate, I refuse to register to any political party. The evolving state of politic identity drove me there. I also refuse to put my allegiances to any party over country. I think this is where Democrats, and especially Republicans have failed badly. Donald Trump is a menace to democracy and a lawful society, and he needs to go. Even our most celebrated military generals are saying this. The Republicans have lost all credibility with Trump. Put in any moderate Republican, that's fine. Same for a Democrat. I am so tired of the extreme partisanship bickering, name calling, and ideologies that are plaguing this nation. We are not a nation of extreme left or right; most people are centrists or independent.


I'm just curious:

What is "unhinged" and "unstable" about President Trump?

Is lowering unemployment unhinged?

Is bringing soldiers home from never ending wars unstable?

Is enforcing border laws that have been passed by democrat controlled congress unhinged?

Is making the lives of working class people, women and minorities (traditionally the last groups to receive help) unstable?

Is putting $5,000 of wealth in the average citizens pocket in 3 years of his presidency unhinged?

Only things unhinged and unstable I see are democrats who cant get over they lost an election!

And by the looks of Hillary Clintons track record and where she was going to take us, I thank the Lord every day she LOST.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I'm just curious:
> 
> What is "unhinged" and "unstable" about President Trump?
> 
> ...


I'll add a few more. Without Trump:


We probably would have never realized just how bad the "mainstream news" media really is. Yes, most of us knew about the left leaning bias, but the degree of "propagandization" of news was a surprise even to me.
We would not have known how bad the Obama administration "weaponized" groups such as the IRS, FBI, CIA, ad infinitum, had become against the Democrats political opponents.
Hillary would have got to name two Supreme Court justices and Ginsberg probably would have retired to allow the Dems to name a third.
We would not have realized that one of the greatest threats to the concept of Rule of Law is partisan judges who like to legislate from the bench.
Jeb Bush, Cruz, Romney, or whoever the Republicans nominated (beside Trump) would have lost the 2016 election. A continuation of 4-8 years of Obama policies would have wrecked this nation. 

The next time the Dems get control of Congress and the Executive office will probably be the end of America as we know it. Trump has given us a chance, but I think it may be too little, too late.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

RockmartGA said:


> I'll add a few more. Without Trump:
> 
> 
> We probably would have never realized just how bad the "mainstream news" media really is. Yes, most of us knew about the left leaning bias, but the degree of "propagandization" of news was a surprise even to me.
> ...


You added some very good points. And you are right, it is too late....Every day you hear another story about some freak liberal HS or college teacher indoctrinating another classroom full of kids into the virtues of communism, killing the rich people, 35 different sex identities, white guilt, etc.
Once you own the education system, that's it, you own the shaping of the minds of our young.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

HAHAHA -- yes, it's those damn teachers using education to "indoctrinate" those poor kids into the great communist plot to ruin America. I would love to see what schools your kids attend(ed) in which teachers promoted killing the rich.

Your biggest problem with young people/voters isn't their teachers ---- you have crap ideas for their future and you try to use old white men on AM radio to deliver that message to them. Good luck with that.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> I'll add a few more. Without Trump:
> 
> 
> We probably would have never realized just how bad the "mainstream news" media really is. Yes, most of us knew about the left leaning bias, but the degree of "propagandization" of news was a surprise even to me.
> ...


HAHA - weaponized the IRS, CIA, FBI and all other intelligence agencies

Judges "legislate from the bench" ...... interpreting the reach of a given law is how the rule of law works and it cuts both ways.

Fox News openly admits it is there to promote conservative points of view --- Roger Ailes said it clearly at the time he pitched it to Rupert Murdoch so I wouldn't be tossing around the idea that the mainstream media (which means anything not FoxNews) must be partisan and biased.

If Hillary was POTUS she would have the right to nominate whoever she wanted to the SCOTUS but Moscow Mitch would have just stonewalled bringing any to a vote until the next presidential election and then the next one and the next one. But you guys did good --- you stole Obama's right to fill a vacant seat and then you added a 2nd molester to the bench to Clarence would have someone to share stories with. Way to go RULE of LAW!


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

How many people have to come out of the WH and point out what an idiot Trump is and how he has no idea wtf he's doing before you recognize he's unfit? Or maybe I should rephrase --- how many excuses can you generate to explain away the obvious?

Also note --- Trump admin has already spent more money baling out farmers hurt by his foolish tariffs than was spent baling out the banks during the last recession. You voted for a guy who implemented a policy that screwed you and then he took some of our tax money (yours included) and gave it back to patch up the holes he made === temporarily. We'll see if those markets ever come back whenever the tariffs end.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> HAHAHA -- yes, it's those damn teachers using education to "indoctrinate" those poor kids into the great communist plot to ruin America. I would love to see what schools your kids attend(ed) in which teachers promoted killing the rich.
> Your biggest problem with young people/voters isn't their teachers ---- you have crap ideas for their future and you try to use old white men on AM radio to deliver that message to them. Good luck with that.


Ummm, you really need to read some history books. Might I suggest anything about Germany starting in the 1920s. Indoctrination was used heavily against the Jews beginning around then. I remember reading a math problem. I don't recall exactly how it went, but more or less "a Jew has 30 chickens and wants to sell them for a high price" and the problem continued on. You do that with young minds and they will think that way their entire life.

"We cannot expect the Americans to jump from capitalism to communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving Americans small doses of socialism, until they suddenly awake to find they have communism." Nikita Kruschev


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> HAHAHA -- yes, it's those damn teachers using education to "indoctrinate" those poor kids into the great communist plot to ruin America. I would love to see what schools your kids attend(ed) in which teachers promoted killing the rich.
> Your biggest problem with young people/voters isn't their teachers ---- you have crap ideas for their future and you try to use old white men on AM radio to deliver that message to them. Good luck with that


Ah, OK, but my wife IS a public school teacher. My kids ARE in high school and college. I AM a high school coach. The things I hear and the stories about their professors and teachers would probably make even a Trump hating died in the wool liberal like you shudder.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Trump has gotten some things right but any more I think of him as being mostly a liar and a buffoon. He lost me with his obsession with tariffs, now this Ukraine phone call really has me shaking my head. What a fool! If the Democrats weren't sooooo hopelessly out in left Loonyville field I would consider voting Dem in 2020. I won't, because I hate, yes hate! some of the major parts of the Democrat agenda.

I would advise people to be very careful with party politics. It has gotten to be little more than tribalism anymore. In my view, we have two parties, each trying to use money to get their way. The Democrats using money of the liberal rich and the have nots to appeal to have not voters, and the Republicans using the money of rich conservative business to appeal to the lower end of the haves and the top of the have nots. I have little time for Rush Limbaugh, he is a wind bag, but he said one thing that is most important about politics, and life in general. "Follow the money".


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gearclash said:


> Trump has gotten some things right but any more I think of him as being mostly a liar and a buffoon. He lost me with his obsession with tariffs, now this Ukraine phone call really has me shaking my head. What a fool! If the Democrats weren't sooooo hopelessly out in left Loonyville field I would consider voting Dem in 2020. I won't, because I hate, yes hate! some of the major parts of the Democrat agenda.
> 
> I would advise people to be very careful with party politics. It has gotten to be little more than tribalism anymore. In my view, we have two parties, each trying to use money to get their way. The Democrats using money of the liberal rich and the have nots to appeal to have not voters, and the Republicans using the money of rich conservative business to appeal to the lower end of the haves and the top of the have nots. I have little time for Rush Limbaugh, he is a wind bag, but he said one thing that is most important about politics, and life in general. "Follow the money".


So just a quick thought: Trump has ZERO political experience and doesn't have the most delicate way of putting things. IMO, he was asking to get to the truth of what Vice President Biden was doing in the 2016 election and all the corruption and extortion he and Hunter Biden committed-and Obama endorsed all of it.....I live 2 miles from Biden and their reputation is distressing.
With all the good things Trump has accomplished, you would vote Democrat? Our economy and prosperity is roaring and getting better each month. Throw that away over a questionable phone call? Knowing that VP Biden did actually commit blackmail and extortion? Knowing Obama actually DID withold military aid when Ukraine really did need it?

Were you outraged over that in 2016? My guess is you were not and neither was I because the liberal news media covered up all their corruption.

Was any president perfect? Of course not, but impeaching has been a 3 year hunt to find anything the man did or said wrong. Obama never faced anything like this....
Impeaching Trump seems like spraying a whole healthy field with Roundup after seeing one or 2 hemp dogbane plants.....


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Trump doesn't need political experience . . . just being honest would go a long way. Its been a lot more than just one phone call. There is no end to the bluster and lies from Trump, from Mexico paying for a wall to his reasoning for a tariff on steel from China. There is no sense in it, and that erodes my opinion of him real fast. If he were a Democrat the Republicans would be having conniptions. It is unfortunate that we are down to picking presidential candidates from this collection of scumbags.

Regarding the economy, I don't think Trump has done a great deal in the way of policy to improve the economy. The two things he has done that I think have influenced the economy is the implementation of tariffs which seems to have slowed the economy some, and he has done a massive amount of deficit spending which would serve to boost the economy short term.

Another thing I really don't trust about Trump is his pandering to big oil. It seems big oil is running the EPA now, and that scares me. I don't like the EPA, but I sure don't want big oil running it. Big oil is no friend of the average American, big oil is out there to extract as much wealth from the consumer as they can, and they know they can get away with it because we are so dependent on liquid fuel energy.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gearclash said:


> Trump doesn't need political experience . . . just being honest would go a long way. Its been a lot more than just one phone call. There is no end to the bluster and lies from Trump, from Mexico paying for a wall to his reasoning for a tariff on steel from China. There is no sense in it, and that erodes my opinion of him real fast. If he were a Democrat the Republicans would be having conniptions. It is unfortunate that we are down to picking presidential candidates from this collection of scumbags.
> 
> Regarding the economy, I don't think Trump has done a great deal in the way of policy to improve the economy. The two things he has done that I think have influenced the economy is the implementation of tariffs which seems to have slowed the economy some, and he has done a massive amount of deficit spending which would serve to boost the economy short term.
> 
> Another thing I really don't trust about Trump is his pandering to big oil. It seems big oil is running the EPA now, and that scares me. I don't like the EPA, but I sure don't want big oil running it. Big oil is no friend of the average American, big oil is out there to extract as much wealth from the consumer as they can, and they know they can get away with it because we are so dependent on liquid fuel energy.


How much more honest can you get than releasing the actual transcript of the phone call?

Or would you rather trust the opinions of Trump-hating liberal congressmen and their media mouthpieces?

How many more corporate executives need to come up to cameras and tell us with someone like Warren or Sanders as president, jobs will be cut, unemployment will go up and more people will be on public assistance.
With that, more companies will have to hire more illegals to build things cheaper, so now the borders become more porous and dangerous.

I don't want a social justice warrior for president. I've seen the awful results and corruption of that from '08-'16.
I want a shrewd businessman who wants prosperity and PEACE.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Releasing that transcript was one of the most bizarre bits of "honesty" I've ever seen. Since when does a sitting President need to ask a foreign sovereign nation's leader for dirt on a political rival's son? And what's even more bizarre is this is the exact thing Trump claimed NOT to do with the Russians leading up to the '16 election. That is all blatantly unpatriotic to me. As far as I am concerned, Trump is just as crooked as the liberal media that I despise, just in a different way. Trump will stop at nothing to get his way, and that worries me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I don't worry one bit about him. His actions on the battlefields of politics prove he's no Russian stooge to me.
*Unlike Obama's hot-mic moment where he was caught, in real time on camera, in a blatant act of collusion with a Russian political official.*
It's obvious Trump wants to do things and handle things like a business. Trump inquiring about *Quid-pro-Quo Joe Biden and Hunter Biden using a Billion dollars in American Taxpayer dollars to extort the Ukrainian government to stop investigating Hunter Biden is wrong*.











If you think that's digging up dirt on a political opponent, what was the Hillary Clinton Russian dossier? What was the failed Mueller Investigation?
We're they both attempts to destroy a republican candidate before the election and after the election?
Of course they were!


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> I don't worry one bit about him.


Every military general who's worked with him does.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> Every military general who's worked with him does.


That's just patently false.

One would have to be quite naive to believe the military isnt politically influenced and partisan.

Generals want wars and military action, Trump doesnt.

So it doesn't surprise me that many generals would dislike him. He takes away their permission to have young men like my sons age sent to slaughter.

*Trump supporters are weary of hawkish generals sending our children to death or injury in endless wars. *

Thats why Trump won, He made promises and hes keeping them. Hillary would have us in 3 different wars at the same time to keep the military industrial complex going for payoffs and meanwhile our sons come home in a coffin or with their hands blown off.

*Generals like war; blowing up things, new weapons and battle. When the generals like you, it probably means you allow them to get involved in war. *


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> That's just patently false.
> 
> One would have to be quite naive to believe the military isnt politically influenced and partisan.
> 
> ...


So, do you actually believe the things you say or is this more like a hobby for you?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> So, do you actually believe the things you say or is this more like a hobby for you?


I about shit myself when I read this, I laughed that hard.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> So, do you actually believe the things you say or is this more like a hobby for you?


Actually I very much believe what I said..and fully expect a liberal like you to say something like that. Always have to be smearing the opposition.

What's so unbelievable about generals liking war and our children coming home maimed or in caskets?

It's very, very real Josh.

I work with wounded warriors and believe me, they're saying the same thing...
One had his leg blown off and I have worked with him for years watching and listening to him. 
He says the same thing about generals. They love sending people and equipment off to war.

You'd have to be incredibly uniformed to not understand that.

Trump is not conventional. He is doing "end arounds" on the deep state. That's why the deep state, career bureaucrats dislike him. He makes their career positions expendable.

Liberals are the liars. Just watch the show trial. 
You'll see more smearing and lies than you ever saw in your life.
Just like the Kavanaugh trial, the Mueller witch hunt on and on and on.

It's all politics and the lies made up to destroy the opponent. 
Turn off CNN for a few minutes and try to think freely, Josh.

Oh and It's a hobby, like farming is to you ????


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

The Founding Fathers warned us about "entangling alliances". President Eisenhower warned us about the "military / industrial complex." Trump has been warning us about the "deep state" and "fake news".

And here we are, almost thirty years after the first Gulf War. We still have troops on the ground. The Middle East is still unstable. Thousands of soldiers brought home in flag draped coffins or maimed for life. Hundreds of billions (trillions?) of American treasure spent on this misadventure.

I recall an article that said we have dropped more bombs in this fiasco than were dropped in WWII. Let that one sink in for a minute.

Never liked Trump before he became president. But, I think he is trying to do what he thinks is right for America.

&#8230;..and I wake up every morning giving thanks that Hillary is not president.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Actually I very much believe what I said..and fully expect a liberal like you to say something like that. Always have to be smearing the opposition.
> 
> What's so unbelievable about generals liking war and our children coming home maimed or in caskets?
> 
> ...


Lots of generals in your Wounded Warrior group talking about their views on war? Fact of the matter is that young men w/ more testosterone than sense want to fight until they get shot at and see their comrades killed and maimed. Those career military guys are the ones who have been there and seen the results of war and are the ones trying to talk down the hawks that never served a day from starting something that will cost lives. Look at the list - Mattis, Kelley, McMaster, Petraeus, Powell, ..... But Pvt Bonespurs knows better than his generals (his words). Any service member with a shred of dignity would be outraged that some pretty boy draft dodger would say such a thing.

Who sent the Pentagon 2X the money they asked for to fund the war industry? Trump not his generals.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> The Founding Fathers warned us about "entangling alliances". President Eisenhower warned us about the "military / industrial complex." Trump has been warning us about the "deep state" and "fake news".
> 
> And here we are, almost thirty years after the first Gulf War. We still have troops on the ground. The Middle East is still unstable. Thousands of soldiers brought home in flag draped coffins or maimed for life. Hundreds of billions (trillions?) of American treasure spent on this misadventure.
> 
> ...


Alex Jones warned us about chemtrails and pizzagate. So what? The idea that Trump, a reality TV star, is in the same category as the FF or Eisenhower is preposterous. Also note - The FF and Eisenhower concerns mentioned don't benefit them directly. Trump's false concerns are there to protect him and his brand.

I find it so amazing that the same people that rallied behind the POTUS when he wanted to invade Iraq and wore their flag pins, ate their freedom fries and called everyone else unpatriotic suddenly become doves when Trump says they need to.

We used to be afraid that having career military folks in charge of defense was dangerous because they would be war mongers but instead have seen that it is the civilians who never had to take fire or watch someone die who are so willing to send people to die. That is fact.

Deep state. - even crazy Bannon knows and has said that there's no such thing. Another windmill to get you to tilt at.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I work with wounded warriors and believe me, they're saying the same thing...
> One had his leg blown off and I have worked with him for years watching and listening to him.
> He says the same thing about generals. They love sending people and equipment off to war.
> 
> ...


Funny thing. I know a marine who was blown up by an IED, can hardly speak or walk now hen previously he had spoken 3 languages etc. He blames the idiots who never served but had no problem letting the work they had done in Afghanistan go to hell so we could start a war in Iraq and we end up with 2 failures - not some generals.

Bureacrats = nonpartisan experienced people. Gosh who would want that when we could have people appointed who contributed to a political campaign to get their position.

I bet you don't choose your surgeon that way.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

To bring it all home

How Are Those Diesel Prices Doing for You? All that winning isn't showing up at my fuel stations. Up and up and up since the start of this post in Sept. What happened to our oil independence? $3.35 for Hwy diesel.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Cant guarantee prices will go down, but producing more of our own helps to stabilize prices and brings thousands and thousands of good jobs to Americans. It also helps us when there's another useless Middle East War that shuts down the straits of Hormuz., but you'd hate Trump too much to agree with that.

He could cure cancer and liberals would hate him for putting radiology and chemo out of business.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Funny thing. I know a marine who was blown up by an IED, can hardly speak or walk now hen previously he had spoken 3 languages etc. He blames the idiots who never served but had no problem letting the work they had done in Afghanistan go to hell so we could start a war in Iraq and we end up with 2 failures - not some generals.
> 
> Bureacrats = nonpartisan experienced people. Gosh who would want that when we could have people appointed who contributed to a political campaign to get their position.
> 
> I bet you don't choose your surgeon that way.


Funny to you maybe. I think its awful, but whatever....

Our government is so bloated beyond belief....

Bureaucrats by the thousands in multiple overlapping layers, like the "deputy-assistant- vice-ambassador to Swaziland" collecting generous gubmit salaries and taxpayer funded pensions while millions of Americans struggle and live paycheck to paycheck. They're way too comfortable in their positions and just towing the old deep state line of taking American money and giving it to countries who hate on us. Piss on 'em is what I say. We dont need to be there and they dont want us anyway.

Trump is shaking the tree loose of these blood suckers and showing them how to change things and get things done.

I like most of the results I see. Finally some of these wealthy European countries like Germany are having to pay their fair share to NATO and getting us out of horrible deals like NAFTA and the Paris Accords....

Someone finally fighting for us instead of making us feel horrible about ourselves, like Obama did.

BUILD THE WALL


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Funny to you maybe. I think its awful, but whatever....
> 
> Our government is so bloated beyond belief....
> 
> ...


Stop being a pedantic moron regarding what I said. Funny thing --- meaning in opposition to YOUR story of veterans blaming generals. Maybe literal is all they can handle in PA.

Sure Build the Wall because wounded vets are getting too much support and we have too much money flowing in from the tax cuts and the tariffs.

NAFTA sure wasn't/isn't a horrible deal for American corn farmers and anyone that won't admit that is just a flat out liar.

Paris Accords ---- don't come bitching when you get flooded out in PA as a result of climate change. Maybe your govt will bail you out like they did the bean farmers ---- socialism rules when it pays you.

Trump is fighting for Trump Inc and that's all. SO either you're his long lost son or you're out of your mind.

Wow - You are a real snowflake if Obama made you feel bad about yourself by what ....... telling the truth?

Genius --- you do realize that we have ambassadors and state dept officials in most countries, not just the middle east. I bet New Zealand wants the US out of their country except for the $$$. Or Israel? Canada? Good lord what a small world you live in.

Ask any crop farmer or dairyman about gubmit payouts before you pop off.

There is no deep state much as you need one to blame for Trump's idiotic behavior.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Cant guarantee prices will go down, but producing more of our own helps to stabilize prices and brings thousands and thousands of good jobs to Americans. It also helps us when there's another useless Middle East War that shuts down the straits of Hormuz., but you'd hate Trump too much to agree with that.
> 
> He could cure cancer and liberals would hate him for putting radiology and chemo out of business.


If Trump cured cancer, he'd be out of a job. He IS cancer.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

"Pedantic" moron, huh?
Trying to wow all us with big sophisticated liberal words? 
I'm sooooo intimidated by pseudo intellectuals
Ahahahahaha


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> *Cant guarantee prices will go down, but producing more of our own helps to stabilize prices and brings thousands and thousands of good jobs to Americans*. It also helps us when there's another useless Middle East War that shuts down the straits of Hormuz., but you'd hate Trump too much to agree with that.
> 
> He could cure cancer and liberals would hate him for putting radiology and chemo out of business.


Trump evidently doesn't care about such things judging by his actions on ethanol. He is pandering to the oil companies, and in doing so is going to wreck the ethanol industry. I'm seeing the effects locally. He is violating current US law by issuing blend waivers to oil companies. If he thinks the mandate is something that should be removed then let him do so overtly with proper legislation. It angers me to see how Trump is using American farmers as tools. Call them great patriots, then smother the ag sector with the collateral damage of tariffs, and the direct damage of waivers. Then hand out money to farmers so they don't complain too much and will keep voting for them. Look, I voted for Trump. I can't stand the Democrat candidates. They get more looney with each passing election cycle. I had some hopes that Trump would do a lot of good for the country, but I have been largely disappointed.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey vote for whoever you want. Unlike liberals who attack you with a bike lock and anti-fa masks on or hide behind a keyboard, I really just want people to be involved, discuss differences in a civil manner without calling names and most importantly, vote. 
Sometimes it gets heated and some revert to name calling when they can't handle the truth.
The fact is, Trump is our president and it's time to give some new ideas a try, rather than the bloated-government, same old tired failed ideas. Our cities are ruined, our economy was collapsing, our society is demoralized by Obama and we needed a change.

USMCA has been on the table waiting to be passed to replaced the pile of crap Clinton/NAFTA deal, but democrats are more interested in a phony impeachment than passing a bill that could make things better for ALL Americans.

Trump is making changes to get rid of this kind of bureaucracy to simplify and streamline government. He is getting us out of endless wars and stopping illegal immigration. There will be pain and resistance along the way.

The democrat socialists don't want to lose their cushy, academia positions and way of life.

Capitalism will always create more winners than the democrats socialism.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

You know speaking of "diesel prices", they're pretty flat compared to other things relatively speaking.

Colleges, virtually all run by liberals, have gone up each year to amazing highs. I have 2 in right now and even with scholarships, my wife and I have had to cancel almost all other expenditures. Diesel fuel is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of "higher" education (socialist indoctrination). I made my kids take out small college loans so they have some skin it the game, too. So they'll be paying the government back with interest. The government is really in bed with higher learning.

Then there's health care and prescription costs. Even though Obama promised is to lower our health care costs, it went up tremendously. Prescription costs are astronomically higher. Looks like Trump is addressing that.... Thank the Lord me and my family are very healthy and don't need prescriptions, but the rest of us who do, you have my sympathy. Thanks Obama!!! 

Property taxes keep increasing. Schools need multi gender bathrooms for the kids whos parents tell them they are a girl when they're really a boy and multi gender locker rooms, paved walking trails, indoor swim pools, safe rooms with coloring books and puppies and of course the extra staffing and administration for the aforementioned. Oh and those fine people need health care and taxpayer funded pensions...

Let's see....New diesel trucks are almost unaffordable thanks in part to government mandated DPF and DEF systems adding thousands in cost. Oh and by the way-those systems wear out after the warranty expires and must be replaced to the tune of thousands more dollars.

I pay $2.35/G for red and $2.95/G for OTR. Although I'm not a big Midwestern farm operation that uses 10 grand in fuel per month, I do use quite a bit. 
But it Doesn't seem like much of an increasing cost factor compared to college, health care, prescriptions, property taxes. 
Fuel seems pretty flat compared to the liberal elitist run universities, health care and anything else our bloated inefficient government has its hands in.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Higher Ed cost vs diesel cost? Haha haha. Maybe if you got some sort of education at all you wouldn't think the word pedant and moron were "sophisticated liberal words"

Prescription and health care prices are capitalism at its best. I know, you're a free market guy when it benefits you and want govt intervention when it doesn't.

Don't want an education. You've clearly exercised that right but don't be surprised when multisyllabic words are out of your wheelhouse.

NAFTA was a HW Bush program signed into law when Clinton became POTUS. Capitalism, remember?

,


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> And by the looks of Hillary Clintons track record and where she was going to take us, I thank the Lord every day she LOST.


Most of the world would disagree short of the dictators and the extremely wealthy.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> "Pedantic" moron, huh?
> Trying to wow all us with big sophisticated liberal words?
> I'm sooooo intimidated by pseudo intellectuals


I never thought about it, but this post made me realize I'm not a liberal. Cuz I had to look up "pedantic" in the dictionary.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Stop being a pedantic moron regarding what I said. Funny thing --- meaning in opposition to YOUR story of veterans blaming generals. Maybe literal is all they can handle in PA.
> 
> Sure Build the Wall because wounded vets are getting too much support and we have too much money flowing in from the tax cuts and the tariffs.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is a need to call anyone names. When you do it just shows how small you really are. The last time I checked we are all adults, at least that is what I thought anyway, well until now.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Higher Ed cost vs diesel cost? Haha haha. Maybe if you got some sort of education at all you wouldn't think the word pedant and moron were "sophisticated liberal words"
> 
> Prescription and health care prices are capitalism at its best. I know, you're a free market guy when it benefits you and want govt intervention when it doesn't.
> 
> ...


I'm a Christian Conservative Warrior that believes in the sanctity of life, hard work, and love of God, family and country! My wife and kids are the same way!
None of the names you call me, the darkness in your heart or any of your failed liberal/socialist beliefs will ever convince me to change! 

I'll never be a miserable liberal socialist, like you. It's a losers existence.

And believe me, I'm in the belly of the beast.... sandwiched in a rural area between 2 large cities!
I have liberals like you moving from those cities into my rural area bringing their failed liberal socialist ideas with them.

Now my taxes are going up and my traditional and constitutional rights are being challenged. 
Liberals SUCK.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Most of the world would disagree short of the dictators and the extremely wealthy.


Biggest lie i have read on here. Thank God for North America she didn't get elected because if her ideals were legislated, the middle class in North America would cease to exist due to wealth transfers.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

As soon as our loud and proud resident liberal started petty name calling it completely nulled any past, present or future talking points from him. Typical liberal. Someone disagrees with a liberal and they start calling names. How incredibly mature of you. Quick! Call me a racist and a fascist! Those are my favorites! Oh - and let's not forget I'm a deplorable as well...

This means you, Draft Horse Hay. I personally think you must have some really messed up demons lurking in you. I simply can't comprehend how anyone could get behind liberals and remain there loud and proud. I realize most democrats don't believe in God, but I can assure you - God is real. And He is good EVERY DAY.

One question for you: how in the flaming hell could you possibly stand behind the Clintons when there are 56 (!) VERY questionable deaths following them around, of people who had dirt on them. And the American lives lost that when questioned about, she threw her hands up and said "What difference, at this point, does it make?!?". And the millions of dollars that were not given to the struggling folks in Haiti while filling the coffers of the Clintons?

And

and

and

It goes on forever.

Is Trump perfect? Hell no! Nobody is! But I think he's at least trying to better our nation instead of trying to bring it down to the level of third world countries out of solidarity. And he's not a murderer of Americans. That's why he got my vote. Plus the fact that he's not a career politician cemented my vote as well.

Please answer my question. Don't play tit for tat, don't call anyone names, don't use diversionary tactics. Just answer the question. See? I asked nicely. We conservatives try to be polite and respectful even in the face of diversity and evil.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Ox76 said:


> D As soon as our loud and proud resident liberal started petty name calling it completely nulled any past, present or future talking points from him. Typical liberal. Someone disagrees with a liberal and they start calling names. How incredibly mature of you. Quick! Call me a racist and a fascist! Those are my favorites! Oh - and let's not forget I'm a deplorable as well...
> 
> This means you, Draft Horse Hay. I personally think you must have some really messed up demons lurking in you. I simply can't comprehend how anyone could get behind liberals and remain there loud and proud. I realize most democrats don't believe in God, but I can assure you - God is real. And He is good EVERY DAY.
> 
> ...


When someone decides to clearly and intentionally misrepresent what was meant by my phrasing " funny thing" they have earned the title of pedantic moron. Look it up.

I laugh every time some right wing pseudoChristian starts claiming to be anti socialist when the very basis for Christianity is socialist. You'll have some 'splainin' to do when you meet your maker.

What question am I supposed to answer? Why I voted for someone with more experience in governing than a reality TV star? Why I voted for someone who didn't molest women? Why I believed the evidence regarding Clinton rather than then the ridiculous conspiracy theories which would make them the greatest mastermind criminals this side of a Marvel comic?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> When someone decides to clearly and intentionally misrepresent what was meant by my phrasing " funny thing" they have earned the title of pedantic moron. Look it up.
> 
> I laugh every time some right wing pseudoChristian starts claiming to be anti socialist when the very basis for Christianity is socialist. You'll have some 'splainin' to do when you meet your maker.





Ox76 said:


> As soon as our loud and proud resident liberal started petty name calling it completely nulled any past, present or future talking points from him. Typical liberal. Someone disagrees with a liberal and they start calling names. How incredibly mature of you. Quick! Call me a racist and a fascist! Those are my favorites! Oh - and let's not forget I'm a deplorable as well...
> 
> This means you, Draft Horse Hay. I personally think you must have some really messed up demons lurking in you. I simply can't comprehend how anyone could get behind liberals and remain there loud and proud. I realize most democrats don't believe in God, but I can assure you - God is real. And He is good EVERY DAY.
> 
> ...


Even in the face of diversity? Hahaha. As if that's a demonic thing.

Clintons responsible for 56 deaths? Even funnier and this time I mean literally funny. The fact that you or anyone would believe such nonsense truly hurts your credibility in any other posts much more than me calling someone a pedantic moron.

Some people are asking to be conned.

Haiti? Ask the Jesse Helms supporters about that.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> I laugh every time some right wing pseudoChristian starts claiming to be anti socialist when the very basis for Christianity is socialist. You'll have some 'splainin' to do when you meet your maker.


I take great offense to this. How is Christianity socialist? I can't wrap my mind around this.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I'm a Christian Conservative Warrior that believes in the sanctity of life, hard work, and love of God, family and country! My wife and kids are the same way!
> None of the names you call me, the darkness in your heart or any of your failed liberal/socialist beliefs will ever convince me to change!
> 
> I'll never be a miserable liberal socialist!!!
> ...


Join the liberal socialists and your miserableness will go away. Reminder - Jesus was the greatest liberal socialist to walk the Earth, if you read his teachings.



Draft Horse Hay said:


> Even in the face of diversity? Hahaha. As if that's a demonic thing.
> 
> Clintons responsible for 56 deaths? Even funnier and this time I mean literally funny. The fact that you or anyone would believe such nonsense truly hurts your credibility in any other posts much more than me calling someone a pedantic moron.
> 
> Some people are asking to be conned.





JD3430 said:


> I'm a Christian Conservative Warrior that believes in the sanctity of life, hard work, and love of God, family and country! My wife and kids are the same way!
> None of the names you call me, the darkness in your heart or any of your failed liberal/socialist beliefs will ever convince me to change!
> 
> I'll never be a miserable liberal socialist!!!
> ...


So when you join us liberal socialists, the miserableness goes away. Jesus the greatest liberal to walk the Earth. Think about that one every day you send up a prayer.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

stack em up said:


> I take great offense to this. How is Christianity socialist? I can't wrap my mind around this.


Start with what Jesus wasn't and work from there. Then perhaps you can wrap your head around it. Thanks for at least recognizing he has a liberal. That's a first step.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Start with what Jesus wasn't and work from there. Then perhaps you can wrap your head around it. Thanks for at least recognizing he has a liberal. That's a first step.


So how will God judge you, mr liberal socialist knowing you pull that Democrat lever supporting the liberals signature issue? The abortion of over 30 million unborn children?

And does God approve of your vicious name calling tactics? Doesn't sound very understanding!

Or is abortion and vicious attacks what "Jesus the socialist" teaches in your twisted, dark, demonic world?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> So how will God judge you, mr liberal socialist knowing you pull that Democrat lever supporting the liberals signature issue? The abortion of over 30 million unborn children?
> 
> And does God approve of your vicious name calling tactics? Doesn't sound very understanding!
> 
> Or is abortion and vicious attacks what "Jesus the socialist" teaches in your twisted, dark, demonic world?


No such thing as unborn.

I think God would be okay w/ pedantic moron and I'll take my chances. Vicious? And who likes to call people snowflakes?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Start with what Jesus wasn't and work from there. Then perhaps you can wrap your head around it. Thanks for at least recognizing he has a liberal. That's a first step.


Nowhere did I say Jesus Christ was a liberal.

1. He is the Son of God 
2. He died for our sins and rose again
3. See number 1 and 2 and repeat


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> *No such thing as unborn.*
> 
> I think God would be okay w/ pedantic moron and I'll take my chances. Vicious? And who likes to call people snowflakes?


So what then?


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Join the liberal socialists and your miserableness will go away. Reminder - Jesus was the greatest liberal socialist to walk the Earth, if you read his teachings.
> 
> So when you join us liberal socialists, the miserableness goes away. Jesus the greatest liberal to walk the Earth. Think about that one every day you send up a prayer.


You don't have much understanding of what Christianity is all about do you?

Matthew 22:15-22 New International Version (NIV) Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?"

18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, "Whose image is this? And whose inscription?"

21 "Caesar's," they replied.

Then he said to them, "So give back to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."

22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

Luke 12:13-15 New International Version (NIV) The Parable of the Rich Fool

13 Someone in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me."

14 Jesus replied, "Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?" 15 Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; life does not consist in an abundance of possessions."

Lets consider the Eight Commandment: You shall not Steal. Notice the period after the word "steal". It does not say that you should take it from Harry and give it to Sally because she is less fortunate than Harry.

I think that is pretty much clear evidence that Jesus was not a socialist. Jesus never called for equality of wealth, or that that government was to force equality of wealth.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> No such thing as unborn.


My wife and I suffered thru a miscarriage, after 7 years it still weighs heavy on my heart. My child was never born, we had no physical form of which to place our sorrow. Just a picture on a piece of paper. That is an unborn child.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> No such thing as unborn.


You are sick.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

stack em up said:


> My wife and I suffered thru a miscarriage, after 7 years it still weighs heavy on my heart. My child was never born, we had no physical form of which to place our sorrow. Just a picture on a piece of paper. That is an unborn child.


I need a button that says "I understand your sorrow" but not by clicking "like". My wife and I lost our first too. My old man at the time said "You didn't want that one anyway, something was wrong with them" I'm not sure what to think about that.

Draft Horse Hay:

1) To make it totally plain and clear - you were supposed to answer why you voted for Clinton. You simply said you don't believe all the evidence against her. OK. Fair enough. We are all free to believe in whatever we want. Those 50 plus people who are now dead might disagree with you though.

2) If you were to say "there's no such thing as unborn" as a reason to get behind your political side's sick and twisted murdering program of unborn babies, and said that in front of me, I'm afraid I would probably lose my temper and then have to go to jail. You're one truly messed up individual and you totally crossed the line. I'm nowhere near as good as Jesus was or could be in this situation and He knows it. I know and he knows that I know I wouldn't be able to hold back. It's likely very fortunate that we'll never meet. I pray we don't.

One parting thought: I'm glad I'm not you when I die. Forever is a R.E.A.L.L.Y. long time to burn.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

stack em up said:


> My wife and I suffered thru a miscarriage, after 7 years it still weighs heavy on my heart. My child was never born, we had no physical form of which to place our sorrow. Just a picture on a piece of paper. That is an unborn child.





Ox76 said:


> I need a button that says "I understand your sorrow" but not by clicking "like".


+1

Larry


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

r82230 said:


> +1
> 
> Larry


+2

Shelia


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Isn’t it interesting, DHH has response for everything. Then I give him an example of unborn, SILENCE


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Sorry for your loss Stack and I can’t imagine the pain, but you win the grand prize on this forum, you shut up a liberal!


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

stack, you and your Mrs. have our sympathy and empathy. We've been down the path you have. It is a sorrow only those who have gone through it can understand.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Gearclash said:


> stack, you and your Mrs. have our sympathy and empathy. We've been down the path you have. It is a sorrow only those who have gone through it can understand.


Miscarriages are probably more common than people realize. My wife had two miscarriages and now, my daughter has suffered through two as well. I didn't realize how common they were until we started talking to people and they related their stories.

Still, it doesn't make it any easier for those involved - especially hard on the women emotionally.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Some times I can't be here waiting to respond to all of you.

Miscarriage does not = a unborn child.

Sperm and eggs would be unborn too. Are they unborn children too?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> You don't have much understanding of what Christianity is all about do you?
> 
> Matthew 22:15-22 New International Version (NIV) Paying the Imperial Tax to Caesar
> 
> ...


Brother - I spent 12 yrs in Catholic school as well as 2 years in seminary school so I might have a clue about Christianity .... just a bit.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I wouldn't use Catholism or the use seminary as your defense. By this admission you are acknowledging that you know the Bible is interpreted in different ways. Proof of different interpretations is not hard to prove, look at the varying denominations.

It was very convenient of you to omit the tenth commandment. This alone debunks your notion of Christianity being founded by socialist ideology. You are confusing charity from the goodness of your heart when you are able with a governing body designed to plunder for personal gain.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

BWfarms said:


> I wouldn't use Catholism or the use seminary as your defense. By this admission you are acknowledging that you know the Bible is interpreted in different ways. Proof of different interpretations is not hard to prove, look at the varying denominations.
> 
> It was very convenient of you to omit the tenth commandment. This alone debunks your notion of Christianity being founded by socialist ideology. You are confusing charity from the goodness of your heart when you are able with a governing body designed to plunder for personal gain.


I wish I could get my thoughts and words together as well as you can, BWfarms. Well said.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Gearclash said:


> stack, you and your Mrs. have our sympathy and empathy. We've been down the path you have. It is a sorrow only those who have gone through it can understand.


I couldn't "Like" your post, but you know what I mean. One of the most helpless feelings I've ever experienced. Worst of it, it happened on Mother's Day weekend.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Brother - I spent 12 yrs in Catholic school as well as 2 years in seminary school so I might have a clue about Christianity .... just a bit.


I guess I am supposed to be impressed that you spent K through 12 in a Catholic school, and two years in the Seminary, and I guess that also makes you an authority on the subject. Well news flash, I am not impressed. Instead of trying to impress me on how much smarter you are than me; why don't you come up with proof that Jesus was a socialist.

Oh, don't call me brother, you have not earned the right to call me brother.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Easy Cowboy (I just had to say that  ) Credentials (background) are good, the more you know helps build a character profile so you can better understand their thought process.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Ox76 said:


> I wish I could get my thoughts and words together as well as you can, BWfarms. Well said.


I have missteps when I compose my thoughts. Sometimes it's grammatical, punctuation, or irrelevant to the conversation. People don't always get what I'm writing so I try to be as thorough.

After all, I was told as a child I can't beat somebody up because we didn't understand each other. Being deaf kinda affects that lol


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

CowboyRam said:


> I guess I am supposed to be impressed that you spent K through 12 in a Catholic school, and two years in the Seminary, and I guess that also makes you an authority on the subject. Well news flash, I am not impressed. Instead of trying to impress me on how much smarter you are than me; why don't you come up with proof that Jesus was a socialist.
> 
> Oh, don't call me brother, you have not earned the right to call me brother.


My son attends a Catholic University. 
I guess I'll call him the "Pope" when he gets home....lol

Like you said, Jesus was not a socialist. 
https://www.prageru.com/video/was-jesus-a-socialist/


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

BWfarms said:


> I wouldn't use Catholism or the use seminary as your defense. By this admission you are acknowledging that you know the Bible is interpreted in different ways. Proof of different interpretations is not hard to prove, look at the varying denominations.
> 
> It was very convenient of you to omit the tenth commandment. This alone debunks your notion of Christianity being founded by socialist ideology. You are confusing charity from the goodness of your heart when you are able with a governing body designed to plunder for personal gain.


The new covenant leaves the OT behind, including the 10th commandment.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> My son attends a Catholic University.
> I guess I'll call him the "Pope" when he gets home....lol
> 
> Like you said, Jesus was not a socialist.
> https://www.prageru.com/video/was-jesus-a-socialist/


Prager U --- HAHAHA. Too funny. The guy that wrote your article uses a very narrow definition of socialism ---- "run by govt elites".

BTW - a Catholic U is not the same as seminary. Ask your son.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> I guess I am supposed to be impressed that you spent K through 12 in a Catholic school, and two years in the Seminary, and I guess that also makes you an authority on the subject. Well news flash, I am not impressed. Instead of trying to impress me on how much smarter you are than me; why don't you come up with proof that Jesus was a socialist.
> 
> Oh, don't call me brother, you have not earned the right to call me brother.


Never asked you to be impressed and unwad your panties, tiger.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Never asked you to be impressed and unwad your panties, tiger.


Get over yourself. Is that the best put down you can come up with. Typical of Liberals if they can't prove their point they have to resort to names and put downs.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Prager U --- HAHAHA. Too funny. The guy that wrote your article uses a very narrow definition of socialism ---- "run by govt elites".
> 
> BTW - a Catholic U is not the same as seminary. Ask your son.


Really???? I'm so grateful you could clarify that for me! 
Another hallmark trait of the liberal..always talking down to people, smartest guys in the room...always the condescending behavior. 
Get a sense of humor and dump the misery, liberal. 
Prager U makes a lot more sense than any of your miserable liberal garbage. 
Drop the negativity and you'd be surprised, you might end up making a friend and having some happiness in your dark life.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> The new covenant leaves the OT behind, including the 10th commandment.


But Exodus sets the type for the New Testament. The statutes of God's Law do not change and were meant to be carried in our hearts. This is much like a house. Every house has a foundation, once the rooms are built and the shingles laid, you still need the foundation or else it will all crumble.

Since you won't acknowledge the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:17.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

BWfarms said:


> But Exodus sets the type for the New Testament. The statutes of God's Law do not change and were meant to be carried in our hearts. This is much like a house. Every house has a foundation, once the rooms are built and the shingles laid, you still need the foundation or else it will all crumble.
> 
> Since you won't acknowledge the 10 Commandments, Exodus 20:17.


I'm not going to get into a scriptural pissing match but Exodus is part of the OT --- carried over from the Jewish Torah and added to The Bible as a means of staying in good graces with the fully established and powerful Jewish community at the time. In fact, that is the why much of the OT is considered part of the Christian Bible. The foundations for all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all come from other ancient religions like Zoroastrianism so Christians just choose to believe that their version is the right version of God etc just as millions before have done with other religions.

Plenty of terrible things have been built on what were perceived to be solid foundations. Slavery based on the idea that "others" weren't actual humans would be a good start. So I wouldn't use the house analogy.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> Get over yourself. Is that the best put down you can come up with. Typical of Liberals if they can't prove their point they have to resort to names and put downs.


"You don't have the right to call me brother" ....... said Jesus.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> "You don't have the right to call me brother" ....... said Jesus.


Your point is???


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> I'm not going to get into a scriptural pissing match but Exodus is part of the OT --- carried over from the Jewish Torah and added to The Bible as a means of staying in good graces with the fully established and powerful Jewish community at the time. In fact, that is the why much of the OT is considered part of the Christian Bible. The foundations for all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) all come from other ancient religions like Zoroastrianism so Christians just choose to believe that their version is the right version of God etc just as millions before have done with other religions.
> Plenty of terrible things have been built on what were perceived to be solid foundations. Slavery based on the idea that "others" weren't actual humans would be a good start. So I wouldn't use the house analogy.


Oh I'm going to get in a pissing contest with you. Your reading comprehension skills are subpar. If you refer to my last comment you will realize I'm not a dummy and said 'Exodus set the type for the New Testament.' This means it preludes.

Go further back it was you that draws the Bible into supporting your socialist stance. If you want to thump the Bible to defend your argument, you better stick around and fight.

You protest my use of an analogy and associate it with slavery? A simple analogy that draws a common picture. Anytime a person with a weaker argument is facing defeat, they hurl anything and everything. Slavery was not apart of this conversation and has no relevance to if the Bible is founded on socialism or not. You have quickly eroded any credibility.

I am a descendant of Quakers so don't try your slavery bull with me.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Cowboy, I respectfully recall my easy... SPUR EM!


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I'll bet if it were spring/summer this conversation would have been done by page 2 which I believe was the last place I saw the word diesel. Must be bored.


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