# Fertilizing fields for square bales



## Canderson012 (Jan 17, 2012)

You know how you can get away with baling round bales and only have lime and/or little fertilizer invested in them because they are mainly being fed to cattle, not show cows or horses. How would a horse owner feel if they were purchasing a square bale that is weed free and only has been limed according to soil samples. I can still make a nice quality bale with just lime and weed applicant, do I have to have nitrogen and other fertilizers in it to "make the sale?"


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Canderson012 said:


> You know how you can get away with baling round bales and only have lime and/or little fertilizer invested in them because they are mainly being fed to cattle, not show cows or horses. How would a horse owner feel if they were purchasing a square bale that is weed free and only has been limed according to soil samples. I can still make a nice quality bale with just lime and weed applicant, do I have to have nitrogen and other fertilizers in it to "make the sale?"


Nitrogen is a requirement for "High" protein levels and other measurements of feed values in GRASS hay, which directly affects the dollar values of the square bales. Nitrogen also adds the deep, rich green color that is desired by most end users. Nitrogen increases yields.

Regards, Mike


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Canderson012 said:


> You know how you can get away with baling round bales and only have lime and/or little fertilizer invested in them because they are mainly being fed to cattle, not show cows or horses. How would a horse owner feel if they were purchasing a square bale that is weed free and only has been limed according to soil samples. I can still make a nice quality bale with just lime and weed applicant, do I have to have nitrogen and other fertilizers in it to "make the sale?"


You can get away with anything the first year. But after that, it is going to bite you in the butt. Nice thing is if you don't put any fertilizer on, it won't take you near as long to get the bales off the field.


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

I would also add that it will dramatically increase the yield and it enhances the root system on most grasses. If your growing bermuda you'll find that the grass will many times outgrow the weeds and have a smothering affect on them. Some horse owners want to know protien content, some want a complete test on the hay, and some just want "pretty" hay. Just depends. In my area, pretty hay sells well to horse folks. However, I'm of the opinion, that most horse don't need a high quality hay, since most of them are nothing more than yard ornaments. Many buyers would be better served feeding their best hay to their cows, and the lower quality hay to their horses but that's probably for another discussion. I personally add nutrients according to soil and plant sample results from the state university. I've had people state, "You'll lose money if you keep that up!" Never lost a penny yet. What I don't get back in yield, I get back by having a product people don't mind paying for. Sell everything I raise. Just my $.02.
Steve


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

haybaler101 said:


> Nice thing is if you don't put any fertilizer on, it won't take you near as long to get the bales off the field.


Big LOL !!


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Here's the K and P requirements for the maintenance level of hay, either alfalfa or grass, listed by tons of dry matter of production per acre.

Reference Maintenance Lbs/Acre By Tons DM Removed 
Hay Yield In Tons/Acre-------Potash-------------DAP
-----------2------------------------100----------------24
-----------3------------------------150----------------36
-----------4------------------------200----------------48
-----------5------------------------250----------------60
-----------6------------------------300-----------------72

Ralph


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

x2 That's a good way to start the morning!


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> Here's the K and P requirements for the maintenance level of hay, either alfalfa or grass, listed by tons of dry matter of production per acre.
> 
> Reference Maintenance Lbs/Acre By Tons DM Removed
> Hay Yield In Tons/Acre-------Potash-------------DAP
> ...


Good data! However, research has shown that, of the fertilizer phosphorus applied, only about 25 - 30% of what is applied this year is available for this year's crop, so applied rates must be higher than what is taken up by the plants this year. The majority is tied up as calcium and/or aluminum phosphates and may be released slowly over several years. Potassium applied this year, as is commonly known, is readily available to the plant. After several years without applied potash (potassium chloride) on a soil already low in potassium, the stand density of hybrid bermudagrasses will have severely declined, and haying time truly will be much quicker.

Add these data for Tifton 85 bermudagrass response to applied nitrogen to that quoted above:
(Data from Texas AgriLife Research trials at Texas A&M-Overton)

Nitrogen------------D.M. Yield 
Applied
lb/ac/yr-------------lb/ac/season

0---------------------3,748
180-----------------12,591
360-----------------16,253

Nitrogen rates were split-applied over the haying season.

Put the pencil to these data and see if you still want to minimally lime and fertilize bermudagrass for hay production. And yes, Hay Wilson, this is total yield with minimal or no loss from research plots harvested at about a 2-inch, above-ground height with a forage plot harvester.

Vince


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

I know plenty of people that dont fertilize. They sell hay. BUT THEIR HAY SUX. HAHA. To a trained eye, its easy to see. Most horsey people look for two things: color and stem. If its yellow---to dry, wont buy it. If its stemmy, wont buy it. It needs a good green color to it but make sure its dry. It also needs good leaves. To me thats the key. But good leaves are a by product of good fertilization. The two coincide. If you want to sell cheap hay to people that by it. You can do it. But I sell to the people that want "good, quality hay." With my normal customers, price isnt a fight. With some new customers coming from the dark side (cheap hay) its kind of a fight at first but they quickly learn. I think its all about what type of product you want to be put next to your name.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

vhaby said:


> Good data! However, research has shown that, of the fertilizer phosphorus applied, only about 25 - 30% of what is applied this year is available for this year's crop,.......
> Vince


Yes, you are correct. The numbers I listed are for maintenance and assume that you have already met you buildup requirements. A soil test should show a K over 300 and a P over 70. If your soil test shows less than these number, you should add the difference on top of your maintenance level.

Ralph


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I have said this before, and will repeat it again.

I really appreciate the information out of Overton TX, & Homer, LA Plus Georgia and Alabama. Probably other states do well also but much of their data can be used here in Central Texas. 
When reading about alfalfa in Wisconsin or New York, care must be take to adjust for the differences in climate, soil and management styles.

There is a lot of beauty in the following. 
*And yes, Hay Wilson, this is total yield with minimal or no loss from research plots harvested at about a 2-inch, above-ground height with a forage plot harvester.*
IN round numbers we can add 15% to their yield for the 15% moisture of cured hay. Then if we loose 25% during harvest we figure 86% of their data is what we will harvest as hay (IF We Do Our Part). I figure I am a little sloppy and use 85% to figure my potential for hay yield.

If local management has a farmer raking hay and or baling hay when too dry, the local yield will be closer to 50% of the demonstrated plot yield.

*A round of appreciation is due Vincent and his friends. *


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

DUMB QUESTION TIME:
Can I spread Nitrogen or KNP fertilizer without a special license? 
I *think* the answer is yes, but thought I would ask.

If Yes> then what brand, where should I buy?


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> DUMB QUESTION TIME:
> Can I spread Nitrogen or KNP fertilizer without a special license?
> I *think* the answer is yes, but thought I would ask.
> 
> If Yes> then what brand, where should I buy?


No you don't have to have have a license. Just go to Ur local elevator to get it. They will rent u a buggy for around $20 bucks or so. Usually u say NPK. Nitrogen then phosphorus then potassium.so u might just get urea or u might get a 80-60-30 blend. Just depends on what u need. Tell them to set it for u. When u order it will Will have to tell them how many acres. So maybe 80-60-30 for 50 acres. U can either get a pto or a wheel drive. They buy in bulk so its all the same "brand" per say.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

3430 not to knock the advice you are getting here but you need to talk to a local agronomist. your local nrcs or county extension service should be able to help you or send you to one. fertilizer companies also will have people on staff to help you make choices. these may need to be taken with a grain of salt,remember they are trying to sell you something. in our area we have some salesmen that know if they give you wrong advice you will go somewhere else and they will lose future sales. i have two salesmen that i trust but i also have an agronomist on retainer. like they say "trust but verify". a lot of the advice you get here is right for the area that the person giving it lives, but could be absolutely wrong for you. that is not a knock at the person giving it it's just how big this country is and how much it changes from one area to another. for a lot of your questions there is good advice here but for some you really need local answers. gary


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Canderson, be careful what some say...now granted you're in a different region than us but good hay can be made without fertilizer. However, fertilizer pays for itself and should be put on whenever you can afford it. Here's a good measure for knowing the amount of fertilizer to apply....

For every 1 ton of hay you wish to pull of:
50 lbs of nitrogen is used
60 lbs of P is used
40 lbs of K2O is used

Through your soil test, check your CEC to see how much fertilizer your soil can hold before you put too much on, and excess is leached through the soil....And yes Vince, P moves VERY slow through the soil if not incorporated with tillage.

As for your N levels in hay, inorganic (granular) fertilizer sometimes skews hay tests because these nitrogen are really unusable by horses because they are NPN's (non protein nitrogens). So, basing hay results on protein levels is not necessarily the most accurate means to go by. Good luck!


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Not sure about Pa. but in Maryland we have to have a license to apply any nutrients even manure on more than 10 acres.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

As a handy rule of thumb this is interesting.

For every 1 ton of hay you wish to pull of:
50 lbs of nitrogen is used
60 lbs of P is used
40 lbs of K2O is used

With my math 
12% CP / 6.25 = 1.92% N or 38.4 lbs N/Ton 
10% CP / 6.25 = 1.60% N or 32 lbs N/Ton

.30% P = 6 lbs P X 2.3 = 13.8 lbs P2O5/Ton

1.90% K = 38 lbs K X 1.2 = 45.6 lbs K2O/Ton removed from the field with the hay.

Our Cow College likes to use as a rule of thumb 50 lbs N 14 lbs P2O5, and 40 lbs of K2O is removed by a ton of hay. 
Remember a rule of thumb is 80% correct 80% of the time, roughly speaking.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

12% CP / 6.25 = 1.92% N 
.30% P = 6 lbs P 
1.90% K = 38 lbs K

This is all well and good but there is a definite BUT involved.

The percent of nitrogen is good and universal because the definition of Crude Protein is percent Nitrogen times 6.25 but the digestible protein will be some value less. 
In general the more mature the hay the lower the nitrogen percentage and the higher the yield.

The Critical Nutrient Concentration for P & K are riding their own bell curves, that also move as the percentage of nitrogen changes. 
In general the level of phosphate is fairly critical. There is roughly a +/- 10% of the critical value for the 90% of maximum yield. Too much phosphate also has a yield drag as does too little phosphate. 
IF the critical value for your forage at 12% CP is 0.28% then yield will suffer as the analysis goes lower than 0.252% P and will also suffer as the analysis goes higher than 0.308% P.

Potassium is not near so critical of analysis results. With most forages, with reasonable moisture, probably runs from 1.70% K to 3.50% K. Your local state University may say the critical level is anywhere from just under 2% K to a little over 2% K depending on climate conditions. For both my grass hay as well as my alfalfa I try for but seldom achieve 2.50% K.

There is an Ideal sulfur percentage but I try for a N/S ratio of 12/1 (10/1 to 14/1)

The yield bell curve for calcium appears to be almost a flat line. For alfalfa it is probably from +/- 1.0% Ca to +/- 3.5% Ca.

Magnesium probably varies from 0.22% to 0.34% Mg. Mg has a definite bell shaped yield curve. Though not as sharp as the bell curve for phosphate.
Mg probably wants to be close to a 1/1 maybe 1/1.1 ratio with Phosphate's yield critical range.

Now does anyone have some bench marks for cobalt levels in alfalfa?


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

Bob M - no license is needed for fertilizer application in PA, but you are SUPPOSED to have an applicator's license to spread slurry/litter...not sure too many people follow it.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

I have a book published concerning research conducted at Renner, TX. (Inside Plano today, North of Dallas). It was privately funded and I think was staffed by guys that had done work at TAMU, back when it was just a college. It covered the years '44 thru mid '60's. Purpose was to return the blacklands back to profitability after 100 years of cotton.

Anyway, they proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt that for every $ spent on the right fertilizer the crop return would easily be 2 to 3x that. You can mine the nutrients out of the soil for a limited time. Once depleted, nothing but weeds can survive.

Mark


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

hay wilson in TX said:


> As a handy rule of thumb this is interesting.
> 
> For every 1 ton of hay you wish to pull of:
> 50 lbs of nitrogen is used
> ...


The P levels for the rule of thumb and cow college (TAMU?) are quite different in your response. I find the latter to be more accurate as unless you have it specially mixed, you either buy all N, or equal parts of all 3 primaries, or numbers like 50-14-40, or per the bag label, 15-5-10. Course I probably don't need to worry about it. My soil sample should be returning soon and they will tell me what I need to grow the amount of the specific product I identified as my hay planting this year.

Mark


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

You have on this end a grower who has little faith in soil analysis, *for the Texas Blacklands*. 
I really send off a hay sample from each cutting and for each field. 
It is the mineral analysis that I use to monitor the fertility needs.

This year I both round baled and square baled in the same field several times and this year I sent seperate samples for each baler. Plus I sent samples from the first hay baled and for the last hay baled. 
As suspected the round baler shatters more leaves than the square baler.


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