# Need Expert Hay consultant for legal case



## cchristensen (Feb 9, 2015)

I'm a trial attorney in Kansas City. I'm in need of someone, preferably in the Pittsburg, Kansas area, who can provide expert consultation about the qualifications and duties of a hay hauler / driver and the complexity of grading and evaluating hay. Please contact [email protected] for additional information. Thanks!


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Oh my gosh.


----------



## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

Yea


----------



## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Well im sure someone would enjoy to do that. Heck if I was more knowledable and knew the ins and outs id surely spout off all the information I'm an expert in lol. But sure sounds like someone has there hands full.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Defending hay supplier?


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

This sounds like an interesting case and the results and details of the case would be of interest to all of us here on haytalk. And complexity of grading hay. Wow. To determine that is going to be interesting because sometimes one person's good hay is another person's bad hay.


----------



## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

If it's horse hay, i'll get the popcorn. We need more details!


----------



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Most dairy quality hay is sold as tested hay usually testing the RFV,HERE.

As far as untested hay there are some guidelines BUT what a seller consider primes hay and what a buyer considers prime hay can be 2 different things.Esp in the case of some horsey folk.On the other hand you have some includeing hay jockeys misrepresenting the hay,but in most cases they will only sell one time to a person.So as far as I know there are not any legal standards to go by with un tested hay.If a guy got some bad hay should of refused it and put on his black list is about all you can do.I've seen and heard of guys getting blacklisted at hay auctions for bad bales in the load or crooked weights.

SO if it was sold as tested hay or not it is 2 different deals.As far as legally speaking.

http://aces.nmsu.edu/pubs/_circulars/CR-641.pdf


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Most dairy quality hay is sold as tested hay usually testing the RFV,HERE.
> 
> As far as untested hay there are some guidelines BUT what a seller consider primes hay and what a buyer considers prime hay can be 2 different things.Esp in the case of some horsey folk.On the other hand you have some includeing hay jockeys misrepresenting the hay,but in most cases they will only sell one time to a person.So as far as I know there are not any legal standards to go by with un tested hay.If a guy got some bad hay should of refused it and put on his black list is about all you can do.I've seen and heard of guys getting blacklisted at hay auctions for bad bales in the load or crooked weights.
> 
> ...


It would have to be a large amount of hay being potentially misrepresented to get to the point a trial attorney is needed.


----------



## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I would be more worried about noxious weeds myself.


----------



## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

cchristensen said:


> I'm a trial attorney in Kansas City. I'm in need of someone, preferably in the Pittsburg, Kansas area, who can provide expert consultation about the qualifications and duties of a hay hauler / driver and the complexity of grading and evaluating hay. Please contact [email protected] for additional information. Thanks!


Can you give us more information? By the way, I am not an expert at anything!


----------



## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

Maybe some Low budget Hay Jockey hauled some hay across state lines for a customer said the hay was no good an didn't pay for and told the customer it's not his fault... OOOR chances are with a attorney involved there is a horse person in the picture some where.... Anyway hopefully the attorney will share the story with us when it is final, in the meantime it makes for good posts on the forum


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Cant you just see the "hay expert" in the courtroom. "Well the hay looked a little mature. And I gave it the sniff test. It sorta smelled ok, so I reached in and pulled some out. It looked like it might have been baled a little tough. Hard to say for sure though..." You would have to pay me a lot of money to get in the middle of this pissing match....


----------



## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

PaMike said:


> Cant you just see the "hay expert" in the courtroom. "Well the hay looked a little mature. And I gave it the sniff test. It sorta smelled ok, so I reached in and pulled some out. It looked like it might have been baled a little tough. Hard to say for sure though..." You would have to pay me a lot of money to get in the middle of this pissing match....


I am just guessing that there must be a fair amount of money involved to make it worth an Attorney being hired. This is going to be interesting to watch.


----------



## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

LOL You told that like you have been with me when selling hay to a horse Farm the only thing you forgot to mention was the pair of leather gloves in his back pocket an the apposing attorney ( OJ's attorney )yelling "THE GLOVE DON'T FIT...THE GLOVE DON'T SEE IT DON'T FIT "


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The alfalfa market in the west has grading rules doesn't it? Maybe an export case. Local guy ended up in a middle eastern jail for years over a load of misgraded potatoes.


----------



## treymo (Dec 29, 2013)

Pittsburgh Kansas might as well be considered in Missouri. Lot smaller operations over that way. Haven't seen a whole lot of hay move from that area, feel like a lot of their hay goes east. Big prairie hay country with lots of rainfall and of course lots of horse people in that populated part of the state.

Trey


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Another possibility is a high dollar horse got sick from the hay. More likely someone is sueing over a $20K horse than a $2k load of hay....


----------



## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

As Kansas was settled, the growing population supported a small community of lawyers. One lawyer became quite successful, handling disputes between ranchers and farmers. He sent his son away for college, and was pleased when his son returned after graduation, seeking to work in his office to figure out if he wanted to be a lawyer. The lawyer welcomed his son into the firm, and gave him a job as a clerk.

On his son's first day, the first client to call on the lawyer was a man,deeply tanned from years of toil under the Kansas sun. His hand were rough and calloused, and he was dressed for the range. The man explained, "I am a ranch hand at the Smith Ranch, where I have worked since I was very young. For all of those years, I have tended to all of the animals on the ranch, including a small herd of cows. I raised the cows, fed them, and cared for them. It has always been my understanding that I was the owner of the cows. Mr. Smith died, and his son has inherited the ranch. He believes that, as the cows were raised on his family's land and were fed his family's hay, that they are his cows. I need you to help me."

The lawyer smiled, and put his hand on the man's shoulder. "I have heard enough, and I will take your case. Don't worry about the cows." After expressing extreme gratitude, the workman left the lawyer's office.

A short time later, the next client arrived. He was young, and well-groomed, and appeared quite wealthy. He explained to the lawyer, "My name is Smith, and I own a ranch near here. For many years, one of my ranch hands has taken care of my family's herds, including some cows. The cows were raised on my land, fed my hay, and they are obviously my cows. Yet the hand believes that, as he raised them and cared for them, they are his. I would like to resolve the matter of the ownership of the cows.:

The lawyer smiled and said, "I have heard enough, and I will take your case. Don't worry about the cows."

After the man left the office, the lawyer's son came over to his father, looking puzzled. "I don't understand," he said. "I may not know much about the law, but it seems to me that there is a serious problem with the cows, and you just told both sides not to worry."

The lawyer replied, "I told them not to worry about the cows, son, and they shouldn't worry about the cows." Chuckling, the lawyer explained, "The cows will be ours."


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I would say maybe a bunch of high dollar horses got sick on some supposedly good hay provided not by a hay jockey, but by a farm that is worth something....... I haven't seen to many hay jockeys that have large assets. Mostly young guys and an old truck and trailer. Or new truck and trailer with hefty payments.


----------



## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

I agree Teslan, I'd be interested to hear the story once it's all said and done.


----------



## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

Think we ALL would


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Maybe someone needs to email Ms. Lawyer and see what the story is....


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I must be missing something....I did not pick up on the Ms. part?

Regards, Mike


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

cchristensen said:


> I'm in need of someone, preferably in the Pittsburg, Kansas area, who can provide expert consultation about the qualifications and duties of a hay hauler / driver and the complexity of grading and evaluating hay.


Well that shouldn't be too difficult.....a "expert" is typically anyone who is 20 miles from home.

Regards, Mike


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Oops...not sure where I came up with that...


----------



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Typical lawyer takes forever to get back to you.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> Typical lawyer takes forever to get back to you.


Had to get paid for some phone calls 

I had an attorney show up for court and they took the handcuffs off so that he could represent me and then took him back to the jail where they were processing him for driving with no tag and insurance


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

You guys all have winter fever, too much time to think and too cold to go outside and do something.

Remember, there are a lot of folks that will file a suit over anything, I mean anything regardless of how frivolous. Been an expert witness in a bunch of stuff and know as much about hay as all the other things and would not touch this with a 20 foot pole. Sounds like a countersuit over defamation of character waiting to happen. If you buy hay and feed it to your horses and it is bad, dumb a**, you fed it and you are culpable, you can't blame the person who sold it to you. You can ask for your money back but don't feed it, kill your 100K horse and file a suit for damages. geesh. is there no personal accountability anymore?


----------



## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Teslan said:


> I would say maybe a bunch of high dollar horses got sick on some supposedly good hay provided not by a hay jockey, but by a farm that is worth something....... I haven't seen to many hay jockeys that have large assets. Mostly young guys and an old truck and trailer. Or new truck and trailer with hefty payments.


There is a 3rd group that I am a member of in which the jockey, truck, and trailer are all old.


----------



## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> Remember, there are a lot of folks that will file a suit over anything,


Yep. Remember the lady who sued McDonalds because she spilled hot coffee in her lap. Of course, her lawyer got a nice payday out of it....


----------



## PackMan2170 (Oct 6, 2014)

carcajou said:


> If it's horse hay, i'll get the popcorn. We need more details!





swmnhay said:


> Most dairy quality hay is sold as tested hay usually testing the RFV,HERE.
> 
> As far as untested hay there are some guidelines BUT what a seller consider primes hay and what a buyer considers prime hay can be 2 different things.Esp in the case of some horsey folk.On the other hand you have some includeing hay jockeys misrepresenting the hay,but in most cases they will only sell one time to a person.So as far as I know there are not any legal standards to go by with un tested hay.If a guy got some bad hay should of refused it and put on his black list is about all you can do.I've seen and heard of guys getting blacklisted at hay auctions for bad bales in the load or crooked weights.
> 
> ...





swmnhay said:


> Most dairy quality hay is sold as tested hay usually testing the RFV,HERE.
> 
> As far as untested hay there are some guidelines BUT what a seller consider primes hay and what a buyer considers prime hay can be 2 different things.Esp in the case of some horsey folk.On the other hand you have some includeing hay jockeys misrepresenting the hay,but in most cases they will only sell one time to a person.So as far as I know there are not any legal standards to go by with un tested hay.If a guy got some bad hay should of refused it and put on his black list is about all you can do.I've seen and heard of guys getting blacklisted at hay auctions for bad bales in the load or crooked weights.
> 
> ...


swmnhay, you rock for referencing NMSU literature! Go AGGIES!!!

carcajou, you get the popcorn, I'll get the beer. Would like to hear the outcome of this myself


----------



## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Our town is so small!! We didn't know we needed a second lawyer unti we got the first one.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I have a feeling zero facts will be shared including the outcome. Unless one of you pulls expert duty.


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

RockmartGA said:


> Yep. Remember the lady who sued McDonalds because she spilled hot coffee in her lap. Of course, her lawyer got a nice payday out of it....


I originally thought the same thing. It ended up being a legetimate case. The coffee was at near boiling point and burned through her skin. She was 79 yo. and asked McDonalds to help her with her hospital expenses (8 days). They refused. She sued them because she could not pay the medical bills.

The jury decided to give her the amount of money McDonalds made in two days of coffee sales. Later a private settlement was reached.

McDonalds admitted they sold coffee at near boiling point, 190 degrees so it would stay hot longer. Industry standard is 140 degrees.

These pictures may be disturbing:

 524 × 373 - reddit.com 

 425 × 276 - plotmistress.com


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> I originally thought the same thing. It ended up being a legetimate case. The coffee was at near boiling point and burned through her skin. She was 79 yo. and asked McDonalds to help her with her hospital expenses (8 days). They refused. She sued them because she could not pay the medical bills.
> The jury decided to give her the amount of money McDonalds made in two days of coffee sales. Later a private settlement was reached.
> McDonalds admitted they sold coffee at near boiling point, 190 degrees so it would stay hot longer. Industry standard is 140 degrees.
> These pictures may be disturbing:
> ...


I believe there was more to the story as well. McDonalds hid their crappy coffee taste in high temperature.

Then again, a good lesson for all never to frequent a place like that.


----------



## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

I have to admit, I do like their fries. Bout it though.


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Bonfire said:


> I have to admit, I do like their fries. Bout it though.


Yes everyone says they don't like McDonalds. Then watch this.  We all have our Mcdonalds.


----------



## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> I originally thought the same thing. It ended up being a legetimate case. The coffee was at near boiling point and burned through her skin. She was 79 yo. and asked McDonalds to help her with her hospital expenses (8 days). They refused. She sued them because she could not pay the medical bills.
> 
> The jury decided to give her the amount of money McDonalds made in two days of coffee sales. Later a private settlement was reached.
> 
> ...


Yeah, McD's argues that their customers WANT scalding hot coffee... some BS about long haul truckers wanting to fill thermos bottles and have them still be steaming hot by the end of the day.

First off, don't know ANY LHT's that go to McD's for their crappy coffee anyway. Second, don't know of any McD's that would fill a thermos anyway. Third, what would the actual percentage of coffees sold by McD's be in this form (scalding hot in a friggin' thermos)?? MAYBE AT MOST about 1/2 of 1% per day?? SO, you sell coffee hot enough to melt lead to the other 99.5% of the people who'd like to drink it sometime in the next two hours without having it melt through their cupholders so this supposed tiny group of customers remains happy??

Sorry I call BS on that one.

McD's coffee is served scalding hot or over slushy machine ice and foo-fooed up with whipped cream and sundae toppings to mask the fact that it's only slightly better than burned chicory, plain and simple... Same reason Starbucks and a lot of other brands burn their coffee beans-- to cover up the fact that they're "trash beans" compared to what REAL, GOOD coffee is supposed to taste like!

I know there was a recent thing on Yahoo's page header (with the little story blurbs on it linking to more in-depth stories) about the "coffee lady who sued big McD's" but I didn't really bother to read it.

IMHO, personal responsibility comes into play... I can sympathize with the old lady, but seriously... you KNOW the friggin stuff is about ten degrees cooler than molten lava, and you put it in your LAP?? SERIOUSLY?? Then look for someone else to pay for your stupidity...

As for the "hay expert" thing, yeah, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole... Opinions about hay quality are just like @$$holes-- everybody's got one! One guy's trash is another guy's treasure, and vice versa... Even having hay analysis numbers in front of you, ask three different guys what they think, you'll get a half-dozen different opinions about what's the most important and what it all means...

Later! OL JR


----------



## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

I Really Really hope that attorney is not charging their client for every post that is up on this subject as legal research and or legal advice Because that POOR SOB will be screwed glued and tattooed when they get the bill !!!!


----------



## PackMan2170 (Oct 6, 2014)

Bonfire said:


> I have to admit, I do like their fries. Bout it though.


Its all about the sausage/egg/cheese biscuit, baby. Breakfast of champions


----------



## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

Breakfast of champions, yes. But I prefer Bojangles s/e/c biscuit. And a really hot coffee. Ha, ha, ha.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

snowball said:


> I Really Really hope that attorney is not charging their client for every post that is up on this subject as legal research and or legal advice Because that POOR SOB will be screwed glued and tattooed when they get the bill !!!!


Yup, he will be billed for a "consultation with experts" fee......that constitutes about 40 phone calls or Internet searches, each billable minutes....

That deal with the coffee was absolutely awful, if that had been my mother I woulda had the attorney meet us at the hospital.....I'd need it cause I would probably already have burned it (McD's) to the ground


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

One final point from me about the coffee.

At the trial it came out that at 190 degrees the styrofoam cup was not stable. McDonalds admitted they had customer spills and complaints every day. Just holding the cup normally from the sides would cause the lid to pop off and the cup to spill. The cup top was supposed to stabilize the the styrofoam cup walls.

McDonalds knew there was a problem and ignored it.


----------



## heytom (Oct 25, 2010)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Can you give us more information? By the way, I am not an expert at anything!


an old timer told me that an expert is a " drip under pressure" !


----------



## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Tom, I have always considered that an X is nothing and pert is a drop of water


----------



## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

I know a goodly amount covering several subjects but hay is not one of those subjects.

In my defense I haven't farmed since my youth and am just getting back into it so...


----------



## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

About 1988, for a year, I would drive thru a McDonald's every morning and get 2 large coffees. I complained at least 20 times about how the coffee would cause burns, it was nearly boiling. I even made the comment that there must be a thermostat screw that they could turn down. A few years later when I heard about the law suit, I knew McDonalds would loose. I'm not for law suits but McDonalds was just plain stupid and careless.


----------

