# Dust or Mud?



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

*Extremely wet or extremely dry*​
*If you had no other choice, do you prefer it extremely dry or extremely wet?*

Much prefer dealing with mud729.17%Much prefer dealing with dust1770.83%


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

It's been discussed many times before, but if you can only have one extreme or the other which would it be? Dry or Wet?

Here I prefer the dry, our heavy soils that even with some of the drainage tiles on 30' centers water still stands for a bit, have some hay fields as well on the heavier ground, nothing like missing a good window to make hay because the ground is too saturated to support the weight of equipment. From past experience we've found it a lot easier to add water when needed than to get rid of it.

The garden looks like hell, may not even get a melon this year, cows have sore feet from excessive moisture everywhere, and I'm a month behind on haymaking.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I would rather have mud. I do got some heavy ground but most of my ground is sand. Also I live in an area that is dry more times than it is wet. Could just about triple production if we had more wet. In fact right now even tho we are having near perfect haying weather we need rain bad. If we don't get rain we won't have a second cut. Yields are down this year in part to the cold spring and now the dry weather. On the plus side if we don't get rain what hay I do have will be worth its weight in gold. 

Now the only thing worse than hot and dry is cold and dry. Why you ask? Cause if its hot and the rain comes things will grow. If its cold(not much above freezing) if it rains things still won't grow.


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I prefer dry so long as during the dry we have irrigation water.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Been wet enough here even some of my sand was trying to turn to mud. The whole east third was wet enough that I carried one round bale out at a time on the three point till I seen the tires weren't sopping wet then I'd grab two on front. Across the road they have a couple of acres of water standing for two weeks now, water table is too high for it to go anywhere. Normally on this ground they'd have the irrigation running by now.


----------



## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Old saying here is "dry weather will scare you to death, but wet weather will starve you to death". Holds true about every year but 2012, could not grow corn on 2" of total rain from April to September. This year is perfect, has been to the dry side but rains have been very timely and have came nice.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

What you're experiencing down there in Southern Indiana is exactly what we had in 2012. Didn't worry too much about the forecast and just mowed hay, about the time we'd start to really worry about rain we'd get 1-2".


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I've got the Goldilocks' syndrome: I want it just right!

Ralph

And the people in hell want ice water!


----------



## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

I want it to be muddy until it's time for me to cut my hay, then dusty long enough for me to get it all baled and stacked, then muddy again until the grass regrows for a 2nd cutting


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Till you guys experience drought like you had in 2012 on a regular basis you don't know how good moisture can be. Just going back 20 years we had several droughts close to and worse than the 2012 drought.

1996- local drought on par with your 2012. Only pasture for the cattle was in the trees where the sun and wind didn't dry things out as much. That was the year dad started wintering the cattle on grain and straw cause hay was so expensive.

2002- If this was not the worst drought since record keeping it was darn close. No rain during the growing season. Repeat ZERO moisture. It was very dry so one would think fire would be a risk. BUT there was not enough dried out growth to spread a fire.

2003-Part of the reason this year was dry was because of 2002. Old timers said they could not remembering it being that dry since the mid 30's except for last year(2002)

2009-I was building a lot of fences that year till it got so dry and the ground so hard that I couldn't pound a post with the post pounder. Could hit the top of the post till it split and blew up and the post was only 6-10 inches in the ground.

Now this year. The only thing saving us was that we had a lot of snow over the winter that soaked in the spring. At my place we have only had 3 inches of rain this growing season.

So when you have a drought 1 in 5 years like what you guys had in 2012 you view mud a bit differently. That is also why laying tile is an odd concept to me cause I do things to keep the water on the land.

The pic is of my oat/pea crop seeded 6 weeks ago. The plants are 4-6 inches high. They are calling for rain at the end of the week and I hope they are right.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hog987 said:


> So when you have a drought 1 in 5 years like what you guys had in 2012 you view mud a bit differently. That is also why laying tile is an odd concept to me cause I do things to keep the water on the land.


And that's a common misconception, tile will only remove the water the soil can't hold. Even our yard doesn't grow well where the soil is completely saturated for any amount of time, excessively wet soil also has very little earth worm activity and has very little oxygen in it. Even during the dry our better tiled fields still yielded better, here wet ground is hard ground.

2012 wasn't bad for us, had it dryer before. Can't remember the exact years, but the first year was pretty dry, second year was worse. Took first cutting off end of May, then it all went dormant, didn't mow hay again till the end of August after getting some rain about the third week of July.

Still of the opinion its easier to add water than get rid of it. We add any more tile and some of the 8 and 10 inch mains will have to be replaced with 12", then may not be worth it then as when it's excessively wet the ditch runs clear full and drastically reduces how fast the water can get out of the tiles.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

mlappin said:


> And that's a common misconception, tile will only remove the water the soil can't hold. Even our yard doesn't grow well where the soil is completely saturated for any amount of time, excessively wet soil also has very little earth worm activity and has very little oxygen in it. Even during the dry our better tiled fields still yielded better, here wet ground is hard ground.
> 
> 2012 wasn't bad for us, had it dryer before. Can't remember the exact years, but the first year was pretty dry, second year was worse. Took first cutting off end of May, then it all went dormant, didn't mow hay again till the end of August after getting some rain about the third week of July.
> 
> Still of the opinion its easier to add water than get rid of it. We add any more tile and some of the 8 and 10 inch mains will have to be replaced with 12", then may not be worth it then as when it's excessively wet the ditch runs clear full and drastically reduces how fast the water can get out of the tiles.


Maybe if I ever had saturated land tile would make sense. But it has not happened. Plus having sandy soil on a hill at an elevation of about 3000 feet above sea level. If I ever get to the point to need tile you would be living in an ark with your livestock for months.

But we have different land and different climates so we both need to have different management.


----------



## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

If you have been in a extreme drought like the southwest has been you would be SICK of the dust and would not mind mud for a change....................Here it always dries up .


----------



## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

haybaler101 said:


> Old saying here is "dry weather will scare you to death, but wet weather will starve you to death". Holds true about every year but 2012, could not grow corn on 2" of total rain from April to September. This year is perfect, has been to the dry side but rains have been very timely and have came nice.


You cornbelt boys have NO clue what being in a drought even is .


----------



## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

panhandle9400 said:


> You cornbelt boys have NO clue what being in a drought even is .


That is why they call it the corn belt. If 2012 happened to me more than once or twice in a lifetime, I would switch crops to sagebrush, cactus, or whatever else grows in the desert.


----------



## AndyL (Mar 9, 2013)

To much either way is no good. You can't make hay in the mud. You can't grow hay in the dust.

The poll is dust or mud. No mention of irrigation.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

panhandle9400 said:


> You cornbelt boys have NO clue what being in a drought even is .


How much precip do you get?


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> How much precip do you get?


16-17 inches a year on average counting the snow. The snow counts for 1/3-1/2 of the years moisture. Its interesting living in a semi arid sub artic environment.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Ahh, and theres the difference, we on average get 40" of rain a year, last month we had over twice as much as normal. June also tends to be our wettest month, so twice as much as normal is a very muddy mess.

If itv wasn't for the tile, most of the home farm very little could be done until late May.


----------



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Plant in the dust,bins will bust.Plant in the mud,crops will be a dud.
Silty clay loam soil here with clay under that,mostly.Very good water holding capacity.Timely rains at pollination and grain fill give us the best crops.Wet soils compact easy here so planting in drier soils helps prevent compactionTile helps here as we'll.


----------



## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

deadmoose said:


> How much precip do you get?


2008 for that year less than 3.5 inches, 2012 less than 7 inches 2013 9 inches and so far for 2014 around 7 inches...................... so called normal here is 19inches


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Ahh, and theres the difference, we on average get 40" of rain a year, last month we had over twice as much as normal. June also tends to be our wettest month, so twice as much as normal is a very muddy mess.
> 
> If itv wasn't for the tile, most of the home farm very little could be done until late May.


Now too if the ground is froze hard durning the winter than most of the snow runs off instead of soaking in.that can make for a dry summer when half the moisture runs off the land.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Ahh, and theres the difference, we on average get 40" of rain a year, last month we had over twice as much as normal. June also tends to be our wettest month, so twice as much as normal is a very muddy mess.
> 
> If itv wasn't for the tile, most of the home farm very little could be done until late May.


Now too if the ground is froze hard durning the winter than most of the snow runs off instead of soaking in.that can make for a dry summer when half the moisture runs off the land.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

We get some moisture from snow of course, but with some of our sub soils, the more that runs off when the snow melts the better. We have whats generically called blue clay here for subsoil once you get deep enough, takes one inch of water one year to move one foot thru blue clay. Place your tiles in the blue clay and you might as well have poured cement around them.


----------



## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

I like it a tad on the dry side. The saying a wet year will scare you and a dry year will starve you....well this year is proof a wet year could starve you as well. Its always a great time farming MUD

Have had 150-200% of precip for June old timers are saying they have never seem it this wet in thier time .....


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

We have finally got a bit of rain. 1/2 inch in the last four days. Not a lot but helping things look green again. Take what ever we can get.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Has been over a week now without any significant rainfall, its become very apparent in a short amount of time who mudded their corn in earlier, lots of pineapple corn around this afternoon


----------



## IHCman (Aug 27, 2011)

I've always said Id rather see it to wet than to dry. Pretty sandy country here and we joke that we're only a week away from a drought.

Been extremely wet here since about 2008 with 2011, 2013, and now 2014 being wetter than anyone can remember. I've got about 200 acres of low bottom meadow hay that's been underwater since 2011. and fences in cattails that I haven't seen in 5 years but I still don't want to see a drought. droughts are just to depressing when there isn't grass in the pastures, no crops in the fields, and the dirt blowing in your eyes all day long.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I figure the only thing worse than too wet or too dry is servere hail. Cause than your dealing with things being too wet but have the same yield as too dry. Plus building and equipment may be damaged.


----------



## AndyL (Mar 9, 2013)

Dust, mud Dust to mud, mud to dust, on and on. By the time you start getting a lil dust, it turns to mud. Repeatedly. Thinking maybe need to put levees around hay fields and broadcast catfish.

Like rain through the rain gage, so are the days of our lives.


----------



## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

I would rather have to scrape my boots than have dust blowing through my teeth. 2011 & 2012 broke me of it being too dry. Trying to bale hay and it's 100 at 9 in the morning. I remember my grandmother telling me about the summer of 1936 that it would get 118 during the day and they had to sleep in the yard because the house would not cool down to under 95 a night and they had one of the old houses with 18 ft celings. As for me I'll take WATER! Were getting dry now, doesn't take long with 98 degrees and a 15 mph wind from the southwest.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

What I would give right now to complain about it being too wet. We have gone from dry to very dry. You know its very dry when the dandelion leaves are crunchy. But its funny because things are still green(will green for being dry) and look good at a distance. But if you walk anywhere its crunch crunch crunch. Right now a heavy rain is a 1/10 of an inch which does not last long when the temps are 30C in the day with 20+mile per hour winds. This is getting to be about the second driest year I have seen in my life. But don't have to go far to where all the rain has been.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

All mixed here guys, a week of no rain, some heat and a little wind see's our light ground really hurting, takes a month of the same before the home farm is hurting.

Was wet enough here though earlier in the year that even the light ground that is normally irrigated has flooded out spots.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Much would rather have dust. We have some ground with tile on thirty foot centers, tallest beans right over the tiles, shorter beans between em. Added 25 yards of railroad rock to the cow lane earlier in the summer, just added another 20 today, 10 where we added before and another 10 in new mud holes. Had a 300 lb calf either slip or get knocked down in one of the muddier spots in the lane, ended up with feet facing up hill, laid in the mud and got rained on all night, not sure if she's gonna make it or not. Wife has already named her and wants to get her tame as a pet, I'm sure this is going to end badly.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Wives and pets can be a bad combo. You know and I know..


----------



## treymo (Dec 29, 2013)

Mud. Drought finally broke this year and have had a great year for row crops. Although hay prices have gone to hell, we all need to be content with the moisture and what it has done for us.

I have grandparents in Illinois. My grandma will call and say that they are in a terrible drought, only got a 1/2 inch of moisture this week. I'll say that we have started a drought, had 1/10 inch a month ago..

22 inches/ year of precip. average here.

Trey


----------



## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Realized today its drier now in the middle of November than it was the first of august. Noticed all the ruts made in a field of new seeding today while spreading manure on it. Haybine and tractor cut in, in august. Overloaded spreder and tractor barely making a track...


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

treymo said:


> 22 inches/ year of precip. average here.
> 
> Trey


We normally get almost double that, 39.6 inches a year. We hit our "yearly" average back in September. June had twice as much rainfall as normal here.

I'd still prefer it dry, from experience with both irrigation and drainage tile, I'd say I'd much rather have to add more irrigation.


----------



## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

What would you say if you were in an area that could not irrigate


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

endrow said:


> What would you say if you were in an area that could not irrigate


I was just thinking that. Or its so dry all the irrigating reserves are all dried up?


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

endrow said:


> What would you say if you were in an area that could not irrigate





hog987 said:


> I was just thinking that. Or its so dry all the irrigating reserves are all dried up?


If that was the case then obviously it would normally be too dry and of course I'd like more water, which is hardly ever the case here.

We normally get close to 40" for the year, depending on where you are in the county we've had up to or a little more than 150% of the yearly normal. Here if you need more water, drop another well.

We have tiles on 30 foot centers on the gumbo in back, it still wasn't enough this year, even installing it ourselves gets prohibitively expensive to install it much closer together than that.

I have a few hay fields that aren't even five years old yet but are dying out from having wet feet two years in a row.

Cows all have sore feet from not having a dry place to stand anywhere.

If it went the rest of year without a drop of rain or a flake of snow it would not break my heart in the least.


----------



## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I used to be in agreement with mlappin but after 3 years of dry I am not complaining about the mud.Finely 4.25 inches in a week and I have the stickiest black dirt anywhere. The cows that are left have to be feed everyday.The average for here is a little over 24 inches and falls off almost 1 inch every mile east from the crest of the coast mountain range on the California central coast,until you get down to the 5 to 8 inch average on the west side of the central valley.The wet season being in winter does make the water go further but timing can help a lot.My father always said his best grain crop was on 12 inches that came a inch at a time every time things started looking dry.Back in 83 I spend more on fertilizer than my whole grain crop was worth,it rain from Jan 17 until the end of April .But there was at least 60 inches grew a lot of cow feed not that I had any cows then .This last year 10 inches spread out to far and not much of anything,60 acres made 7.5 ton of oat hay.


----------

