# Gas Pick-ups.



## Vol

Successful Farmings engiineman Ray Bohacz on why you should consider them.

Regards, Mike

https://www.agriculture.com/machinery/repair-maintenance/why-you-should-consider-a-gas-pickup-truck


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## Palmettokat

Three years back I needed pickup for towing 9,300 pound excavator being my heaviest load. Could not justify new so went used pickup hunting. Got engine advice from service person at a dealership who recommended gas for my needs. Ended up with Ford V 10 with manual transmission. Compared the specs between that engine and the diesel and was impressed. It pulls, it also runs. Very pleased. My normal driving is from 10 to 13 mpg. Really like the engine. Would I recommend the manual trans, yes if you do not want people borrowing it. Amazing how few know how to drive one.

Have had it just over three years, have put about 12,000 think it is in that time.

Have nephew that is on his third Ford with diesel, began with the International a mid to late 90's model which was great. Nice rig but for majority of his needs to me too short of trips for a diesel.


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## Troy Farmer

I bought a used 2013 Chevy 3500 HD with the 6.0 Vortec and automatic and have been satisfied. First of all I couldn't swallow the extra 10 grand for the diesel. Second, I was afraid of future problems and the costs to repair. I mostly haul hay and not much equipment. Don't get me wrong, if you can swing the cost, the diesels will walk the dog but don't overlook a gas burner. I can remember the days when the only trucks that had a diesel were tractor trailer trucks and some of them had gas engines (and huge fuel tanks lol).


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## Teslan

That's a good article. I don't tow really anything. And for the little I do a 16 foot trailer and my Nissan Titan gas do the job so far. People are surprised I didn't buy the Nissan XD with the Cummins. But why would I? I didn't want to longer bed or need the extra towing power. Or the extra $8k in price.


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## NewBerlinBaler

I agree with the article, the author hits many of the points I always consider with diesel pickup trucks: high initial cost, high maintenance costs, the racket, the smell, the pain when refueling, etc.

Here's one more thing - the main advantage of a diesel when towing isn't the additional torque but rather the rapid torque rise. Diesels develop significant torque down around 1,500 rpm whereas a gas engine needs to rev up several thousand rpm. That's no longer an issue because new trucks have automatic transmissions with umpteen speeds that can always find the engine's sweet spot.

I visited Ford's medium duty truck website a few years ago and learned the V-10 gas (still available on F-450 thru F-850) has a trailer tow rating of 30,000 pounds. That's because of the 10-speed tranny.


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## CowboyRam

My uncle bought a Dodge gasser last year (it was the bigger engine), traded his Dodge diesel. That was a big mistake; he was pulling a load of hay, and got 3 miles per gallon with it, and he almost powered out pulling up beaver rim south of Riverton Wyoming, 9% grade. He almost did not make Rawlins Wyoming that night, he was running on fumes. So I am of the opinion if you have a load to pull, don't buy gasser.


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## haybaler101

I don't want a new diesel with DEF or emissions but I would take another deleted LMM duramax any day. Drove my '08 with 250,000 across Illinois 250 miles last week to get a 28% toolbar. Got 20 mpg on the way at 60-65mph. Pulled bar home at 45 mph weighing probably 7500 lbs and got 13 mpg. One of my sons has a dodge with a 5.7 hemi and the other has ford with an eco boost and neither one can get 13 mpg driving empty.


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## JD3430

My '08 F-350 4WD get same or slightly better mileage around town than my '05 Chevy 1500 Z-71.
Don't get me wrong, I love both trucks. The Chevy is soooo nice for just driving around, but when it comes to working a truck hard (towing, snow plowing) there's no comparison. 
Heck my 550 diesel gets 10.5 MPG around town with 4.88's

If I deleted and programmed the diesels, they'd get 20% more fuel efficiency. 
Someday I'm actually going to it AZMike!!


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## Vol

CowboyRam said:


> My uncle bought a Dodge gasser last year (it was the bigger engine), traded his Dodge diesel. That was a big mistake; he was pulling a load of hay, and got 3 miles per gallon with it, and he almost powered out pulling up beaver rim south of Riverton Wyoming, 9% grade. He almost did not make Rawlins Wyoming that night, he was running on fumes. So I am of the opinion if you have a load to pull, don't buy gasser.


3 miles per gallon? I would think that his truck has other issues.

I live in mountainous East Tennessee and have a '16 6.0 GM HD and it pulls very well. I am geared low, I get 9 towing, 13.3 around town 15.8 on the interstate. I am quite satisfied with it as it tows anything that I care to move myself....like hay regularly and a occasional tractor.

I had a GM duramax diesel that I put over 335,000 on and I really liked it.

I am satisfied with my gas burner....especially on fuel costs and maintenance. I won't be buying another diesel pick-up in the foreseeable future for my needs.

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan

CowboyRam said:


> My uncle bought a Dodge gasser last year (it was the bigger engine), traded his Dodge diesel. That was a big mistake; he was pulling a load of hay, and got 3 miles per gallon with it, and he almost powered out pulling up beaver rim south of Riverton Wyoming, 9% grade. He almost did not make Rawlins Wyoming that night, he was running on fumes. So I am of the opinion if you have a load to pull, don't buy gasser.


One of my hay customers bought a Powerwagon Gas Ram a 2 years ago. He says it pulls and gets better mileage and more power then his previous Dodge Diesel pulling up the grades to Evergreen Colorado. So I wonder like Vol if your uncle's has some issues. 3 seems not right at all. What does it do not pulling anything?


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## StxPecans

I could see a gasser getting 3mpg when pulling. I went up to Kansas and picked up a CIH 7110 dealer through in a bunch of weights for it. I also askedthem to make sure no water was in the tires. Driving home to south texas i averaged 5mpg. Got home and realized rear tires were full of liquid. I put a pecan shaker big pecan shaker on the three poing of it with 1500lbs of front weights and built a roof for it that weights about 2500lbs. In total tractor set up lile that tipped the co-ops scale to 27,000lbs. I have put that on my 40foot gooseneck and traveled to custom harvest jobs getting about 4mpg in my 2015 ram 3500 diesel. I figure with 27k tractor and 10k trailer and about 9k truck... About 45k combined weight. I could see a 6.0 gasser burning 3mpg with a combined weight around 30k.

I once scaled my truck trailer before at 47,000lbs with a load of pecans on it before. Everyone says stopping a big load is hard.... My truck trailer stops pretty well with a big load. Trailer has electric over hydralic disc brakes 15k axles and even super heavy it will lock them down.


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## endrow

I drive a Chevy with an 8. 1 gas. That engine also came with an Allison Transmission that really makes the difference in those trucks. Gas mileage not much different than a 6.0 wish they would have kept making them 8.1 engines


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## swmnhay

Transmissions and rear end ratios make a hell of a difference in pulling and mileage.

Manufactures have to sell so many with higher ratio rear ends that get a better hwy mileage rating to satisfy the guberment.And most salesman don't know crap about pulling heavy loads and rear end ratios.

Hell of alot easier on entire driveline with the 6-8 sp automatics then the 3-4 speed automatics.

If a guy gets a diesel you better be pulling it to justify it and not for a parts runner/grocery getter.


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## r82230

StxPecans said:


> I once scaled my truck trailer before at 47,000lbs with a load of pecans on it before. Everyone says stopping a big load is hard.... My truck trailer stops pretty well with a big load. Trailer has electric over hydralic disc brakes 15k axles and even super heavy it will lock them down.


Gotta love those electric over hydraulic brakes, I know I sure do. Locking down they sure can do and do well. Everyone who as borrowed or used my trailer, comes back shaking their head and smiling. Until you try yourself, it's hard to believe.

Larry


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## CowboyRam

Vol said:


> 3 miles per gallon? I would think that his truck has other issues.
> 
> I live in mountainous East Tennessee and have a '16 6.0 GM HD and it pulls very well. I am geared low, I get 9 towing, 13.3 around town 15.8 on the interstate. I am quite satisfied with it as it tows anything that I care to move myself....like hay regularly and a occasional tractor.
> 
> I had a GM duramax diesel that I put over 335,000 on and I really liked it.
> 
> I am satisfied with my gas burner....especially on fuel costs and maintenance. I won't be buying another diesel pick-up in the foreseeable future for my needs.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Well he was pull 11 big rounds at the time, we figured that they weighed at least 1600 pounds each. He almost powered out pull the up the rim. It is not real long, but it is a 9% grade. Oh, I think that truck is has the Hemi, he almost bought a truck with the smaller engine, and dad told him you get the one with the biggest engine you can get. It is only about a year old now. He is hard on trucks, and I don't think it will last long.

The thing is, we could have pulled that hay with dad's duramax, but my uncle it can pull it. It is just a good thing that he did not power out pulling that hill, I don't think the truck could have held that load.


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## IH 1586

I have to agree with the others that 3 mpg is a little low. I have a '99 Chevy 3500 w/4.10 and a 454 that had been getting sluggish slowly over the few years and finally sent it to mechanic to have it checked over and it was missing on 3 cylinders. Have worked the crap out of it since fixing, hauling the tractor I purchased through the Pennsylvania hills and can report 6.3 mpg, 7.1 mpg pulling trailer locally with some lumber, and 10 mpg on interstate no trailer. Those are the only 3 fill ups have done since getting it fixed. I doubt I will consider a diesel with the extra up front costs. This truck probably still has another 20 years left before I would consider upgrading.


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## Anonsky's Hay Service

My old trucks were gassers, I know its not a "need" with modern gas engines, but I wouldn't go back from the new 6.7 diesel. 10k behind the truck and it hardly notices it. I still maintain that diesels hold together better than gas engines, even if the gas engines also last (but with more leaks, burning more oil, making more rattles and other noises) than a diesel.

My old 5.4 was gutless, rattled like no other, and drank a quart of oil per thousand miles when I got rid of it around 185k or so. I know its an epa scam, but I'm still happy to pay more for a diesel treeuck.


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## JD3430

For as great as today's gas engines get talked up, they've never made it back into tractors or serious commercial trucks. Main reasons are because lack of torque, poor fuel economy and lack of longevity. 
The argument "yeah but I can put another rebuilt gas engine in and be about the same cost as a diesel" doesn't fly. What about down time to install another motor? That's a cost nobody ever accounts for if you're a smaller company with a few trucks.

I think diesels in a 1/2 ton are kind of useless, unless you drive the truck 40-50k/yr.
You couldn't give me a gas engine for pulling 10 tons of hay. You'd have to stop for gas too often and the motor would be worn out before the first specks of rust show up from all the revving. Gasser fine for smaller loads. I like transporting and storing diesel a lot more than gas, too-safer. Since all my tractors run on diesel, we also figure it's easier to run one kind of fuel.


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## Widairy

I have a 2007.5 GMC 2500 with the diesel. When I buy my next truck it will definitely be a gasser. Like my current truck but I don't want to deal with the newer emissions and def. And living in the great Wisconsin cold for half the year a truck that warms up quickly would be nice.


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## Palmettokat

JD3430, you use only one diesel fuel? How do you handle road tax?


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## JD3430

Palmettokat said:


> JD3430, you use only one diesel fuel? How do you handle road tax?


No sir. Taxed in trucks, red in tractors.


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## somedevildawg

It all comes down to what you're using said truck for......I have a gas engine for running to the lumber yard, steel yard, parts, lunch, but for pulling its the 6.7 with duals. There's certainly not a perfect combo out there......I routinely pull 30k, not a problem with the diesel, I also irregularly  pull a 17' aluminum fishing boat, I use the gas for that......need to do more of that


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## JD3430

The article doesn't discuss the "quality of life" aspect of ownership. While I'm sure nobody disputes you could pull 8-10 tons of hay with today's gas truck, what kind of driving experience would it be pulling a steep highway hill at 25 with the 4 ways on, engine screaming at 6,000RPM instead of 55 at 2,500 RPM with a diesel? It's also not much fun knowing you're pushing equipment to its very limits feeling like you may be damaging things. 
I think some of our flat land farming brothers in Florida or other flat topography states can do better in a gasser, too. There's also the aspect of money. Some of us simply cannot afford a diesel truck. Totally understandable reasons. Been there done that.

Another thought: I think all of us would freely admit we either have, or would like to have, a more powerful tractor than we need in front of our discbine or baler. It's helps on steep hills. Pushing a tractor to the point of barely making it up a hill with a heavy baler in tow is similar to pushing a truck up a hill with a heavy load of hay. Yeah, it'll do it, but with a more powerful tractor, you're up the hill faster and onto the next bale. Saves time and lowers stress.

The author also fails to mention many states do not require diesel emissions inspections. That is an annual savings to compensate for all the "additional maintenance" he mentions required on a diesel. I just spent $900 replacing all the gas emissions lines and fuel pump from the gas cap to the tank on our Tahoe. Once the "emissions light" comes on on the dash, it automatically fails inspection in PA. $900 to turn a stupid light off. Vehicle ran perfect, but gas fumes escaping into the air and it fails. 
Ever change the spark plugs on a gas truck??? I saw one where the truck had be put on a lift and the plugs taken out from underneath and it was fairly expensive. Diesels can also run more miles between oils changes. Fords noted for "spitting plugs", too.


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## PaMike

My buddy had a 6.0 gas and my other buddy had an early duramax. When we would run down the highway together with the racecar trailers the 6.0 could actually outpull the duramax on the hills. I don't remember the specifics but it had to do with the gearing differences between the two. The duramax was a better overall towing rig but when it came to the hills the gasser did better...


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## NewBerlinBaler

JD3430 said:


> For as great as today's gas engines get talked up, they've never made it back into tractors or serious commercial trucks.


Surprise! 18-wheelers are switching to CNG (compressed natural gas) which is basically a gas engine (spark plugs, etc) with a modified fuel system.


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## bbos2

It will be hard for me to go back to a gas pickup. Have 130k on my duramax . it did require some work lately , but I feel like I got a ton of life yet on this truck. My 6.0 gasser got beat up even with good regular maintenance, and it just took so much fuel. Like stated above everyone s situation is different. Diesels aren't practical for everyone.

As far as emissions go... Delete em.


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## haybaler101

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Surprise! 18-wheelers are switching to CNG (compressed natural gas) which is basically a gas engine (spark plugs, etc) with a modified fuel system.


On a very limited basis. One local truck company is going this way but they have their own fueling station and the trucks stay within that range. They are also low hp fleet trucks. The same companies otr's are high hp diesels.


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## somedevildawg

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Surprise! 18-wheelers are switching to CNG (compressed natural gas) which is basically a gas engine (spark plugs, etc) with a modified fuel system.


It ain't cause it's a better engine tho.....


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## JD3430

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Surprise! 18-wheelers are switching to CNG (compressed natural gas) which is basically a gas engine (spark plugs, etc) with a modified fuel system.


Yeah...let me know how that works out in the future. 
I love technology, but there's nothing better than a Diesel engine, including a gas engine with spark plugs powered with natural gas.


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## Palmettokat

JD3430 "Since all my tractors run on diesel, we also figure it's easier to run one kind of fuel."

Conversation was on trucks and when you said this thought you meant one fuel for trucks and tractors. Was not trying to imply anything out of line. I have wondered about buying the taxed road diesel and then when filing tax, filing for off road use in tractors (no diesel on road vehicles) due to limited sources for off road.

I should have mentioned this in my post but we get use to what we are use to and do not think about situations not our normal. We have very very little natural grades here. Our grades here are almost all bridges and then not long steep ones at that. On top of that for me 15,000 pound load would be as large as I would ever "hope" to need to haul. For my needs and terrain my rig is more than enough.

Might be orange and apple comparison here but the number of gears and high and low ranges here were first seen on diesel tractors and trucks. The gas ones seemed to do fair or okay with a single range four speed transmission in tractors but the diesels needed the two ranges. In heavy duty pickups my limited knowledge the diesels were where the higher number gears also first showed up. Was that due to diesels have narrow rpm range?


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## IH 1586

My thinking on diesel for pickup is you better use it for what it's built for to justify it. 50-75% of my miles on my current truck might justify it with pulling equipment, trailer, has 100 gal fuel tank in back with tool box, and with the hills here but last year I only put less than 2000 miles on it. Purchased in 2007 with 34,xxx miles and in March turned over 100,000. Taking scrap roofing to junk yard found out that with the trailer it weighed in at 11,700 lbs.and that's with both fuel tank about empty (Diesel & Gas) so at any given time just the truck is at or above 10,000 lbs.

For my particular operation I don't think I can justify extra costs.


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## Vol

IH 1586 said:


> For my particular operation I don't think I can justify extra costs.


That seems to be a thing that many folks have trouble actually calculating. Often it is more of a rationalization than a true justification. Lots of high schoolers running diesels out there and some adults that act like they are still there...

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

PaMike said:


> My buddy had a 6.0 gas and my other buddy had an early duramax. When we would run down the highway together with the racecar trailers the 6.0 could actually outpull the duramax on the hills. I don't remember the specifics but it had to do with the gearing differences between the two. The duramax was a better overall towing rig but when it came to the hills the gasser did better...


I could see the gasser winning the race, but like the John Deere commercial says: "it's not how fast you mow, it's how well you mow fast", right?

A gas truck with a mid-weight load like that might win the "race", but when the race is over, the gasser got 7 MPG and the diesel got 12MPG. 
The gasser revved to 6,000 RPM creating more internal wear while the diesel only revved to maybe 3,000 for less internal wear. 
Bottom line is, the diesel will live ~3x longer towing that load than the gasser, less trips to the pump, lower stress level, easier life. 
And as the load gets heavier, the diesel does even better.


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## FarmerCline

No gas burner for me.....I had a 99 Chevrolet 3500 with a 350 gas engine and it was an underpowered gas guzzling sob. When pulling a load in the hills around here it would get 4 mpg. Now I'm sure the new gas burners are much improved but personally I would not buy one in a heavy duty pickup unless it was just going to be a grocery getter for running around town......which brings up the question of in that case why are you buying a heavy duty pickup instead of a half ton?

I actually almost bought a new ton truck with a gas engine a few years ago because of the lower purchase cost. I realized though I would never be fully satisfied with the gas burner so I opted to either wait until I could afford the extra cost of a diesel or buy a used diesel truck. Glad I made that decision and I thank the good Lord every morning I wake up that I didn't buy that gas burner.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the high resale value of used diesel pickups. It's amazing how well they hold their value.......that's why I haven't bought one yet and have been using a diesel straight truck for my hauling needs. When my dad bought his new f350 diesel last fall the salesman told him if you ever think about selling/trading the truck be sure and spend the extra to get a diesel as you will easily get that back but on a gas burner you will take a bath.....he said they wouldn't hardly trade for a gas burner as they are a tougher resell.

Hayden


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## NewBerlinBaler

JD3430 said:


> Yeah...let me know how that works out in the future.
> I love technology, but there's nothing better than a Diesel engine, including a gas engine with spark plugs powered with natural gas.


Economics is what's driving this.

Right now, CNG is the equivalent of around 20 cents / gallon. As more CNG refueling stations come on line, all trucking companies will eventually be forced to convert their fleets from diesel to gas. They simply cannot remain competitive if they keep paying 15+ times more for fuel than other trucking firms that already made the switch to CNG. I notice truck stops along I-80 are now advertising that they have CNG. This is just a matter of time, 5 years perhaps?

So then the big question becomes - will diesel fuel still be available when demand drops so much? Remember, about 90% of the diesel fuel that's refined in the USA goes to 18-wheelers. Big Oil will likely decide that it's simply not profitable to continue refining, storing, transporting, distributing, etc, diesel.

In time, the diesel engine will likely go the way of the typewriter (replaced by the PC) or the coal-fired power plant (soon to be replaced by natural gas-fired plants) etc.


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## Palmettokat

I have had some good chuckles reading this thread and it has good great comments and points in it. No idea about your area but here it seems every body has strong opinion on how good or sorry a Chevy and or a Ford pickup is.They will argue with you on that and then leaving in their Dodge, Toyota or such.

The one thing that is obvious and concerning at same time with the amount you have invested in your motorized equipment whether truck, pickup or tractor the changes can be very expensive but things are a changing.


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## haybaler101

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Economics is what's driving this.
> 
> Right now, CNG is the equivalent of around 20 cents / gallon. As more CNG refueling stations come on line, all trucking companies will eventually be forced to convert their fleets from diesel to gas. They simply cannot remain competitive if they keep paying 15+ times more for fuel than other trucking firms that already made the switch to CNG. I notice truck stops along I-80 are now advertising that they have CNG. This is just a matter of time, 5 years perhaps?
> 
> So then the big question becomes - will diesel fuel still be available when demand drops so much? Remember, about 90% of the diesel fuel that's refined in the USA goes to 18-wheelers. Big Oil will likely decide that it's simply not profitable to continue refining, storing, transporting, distributing, etc, diesel.
> 
> In time, the diesel engine will likely go the way of the typewriter (replaced by the PC) or the coal-fired power plant (soon to be replaced by natural gas-fired plants) etc.


Keep drinking that kool-aid. If all trucks are converted to cng, cng price will soon be higher than diesel fuel. Just remember, diesel became higher priced than gasoline in the last 15 years. 25 years ago, gas was $1/gal and diesel was $0.70. Also, in the 1940's and 50's, every major tractor manufacturer offered gas, diesel and PROPANE tractors, now they are all diesel. I don't think you are going to get high hp and high torque from a cng engine that will fit under the hood of a truck or a tractor.


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## NewBerlinBaler

haybaler101 said:


> Keep drinking that kool-aid. If all trucks are converted to cng, cng price will soon be higher than diesel fuel. Just remember, diesel became higher priced than gasoline in the last 15 years. 25 years ago, gas was $1/gal and diesel was $0.70. Also, in the 1940's and 50's, every major tractor manufacturer offered gas, diesel and PROPANE tractors, now they are all diesel. I don't think you are going to get high hp and high torque from a cng engine that will fit under the hood of a truck or a tractor.


You're overlooking the production cost - which is huge. Diesel fuel comes from refining petroleum. Natural gas is burned in an engine as it comes right out of the ground, In other words, there's no processing required. It will always be way cheaper than a distillate fuel. Your supply-vs.-demand argument only works when you compare apples to apples, it doesn't work here.

The diesel engine had its day but the proverbial dustbin of history is fast approaching.


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## haybaler101

Oh but you forgot that cng companies are owned by same kind of people as big oil.


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## somedevildawg

Now that's funny.....when the Diesel engine is not an alternative any longer, internal combustion engines will be completely out of vogue and electrical power plants will rule the day. As long as the big things need to move, Diesel engine technology will continue to innovate and improve and the Diesel engine will continue to drive logistics.....I don't see that changing in the near future


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## endrow

I don't know what will be the future. Here there is a place for both in pickups . Lots custom haul cattle 6 days a k week . with long eby stock trailers packed full with Chevy Duramax 3500 in these hills , I cannot see a 6.0 would do the same ? Off subject , when I was a kid we always got up around 4;30am but some time the local stone quarry started hauling an hour before we got up . . Our house was at top of hill at the stop sign . When they cut the fleet of 10 wheeler gas dump trucks loose at 3;30 am you mite just get up if the windows were open in summer ,. The Fords were 534 gas and the Chevys were 427 gas and they all had that transmission with 2 sticks gave em about 15 speeds . Those old V8s really sounded good back in the day .


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## Palmettokat

Another off topic, when I was a young-en the 427 was used in some of the Chevy's muscle cars. Think Fords was 428. Not that much metal in some of our cars today in total.


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## JD3430

somedevildawg said:


> Now that's funny.....when the Diesel engine is not an alternative any longer, internal combustion engines will be completely out of vogue and electrical power plants will rule the day. As long as the big things need to move, Diesel engine technology will continue to innovate and improve and the Diesel engine will continue to drive logistics.....I don't see that changing in the near future


Correct. And I suppose all farm tractors, pleasure boats, tugboats, small ships, standby power generators, construction equipment, locomotives and diesel trucks are going back to spark plugs and low torque CNG motors. 
With all the oil drilling we are doing and all the aforementioned technology developments in the Diesel engine, I think they will actually see an increased use in smaller vehicles.

If anything takes a bite out of pure diesel power, it might be diesel/electric hybrid technology.


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## JD3430

haybaler101 said:


> Oh but you forgot that cng companies are owned by same kind of people as big oil.


Yep, I can just see a bunch of short haul companies convert, then the price of CNG goes up 50% to match demand....Uh ohhhhh, back to diesel....


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## r82230

somedevildawg said:


> Now that's funny.....when the Diesel engine is not an alternative any longer, internal combustion engines will be completely out of vogue and electrical power plants will rule the day. As long as the big things need to move, Diesel engine technology will continue to innovate and improve and the Diesel engine will continue to drive logistics.....I don't see that changing in the near future


Funny, I'm considering stocking up on power cords to run my electric tractors (I don't want to change batteries). I'm thinking maybe I should have smaller fields, with a plug on each side even, so I would be less likely to cut the cord with my discbine even.  But that might just be me, since I went to using a cordless power saw, I haven't cut an extension cord at all for some odd reason. :huh:

Larry


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## somedevildawg

Lol....I bet I've cut at least two dozen cords with the "old school" electric hedge trimmer.....orange cords were best, they were easier to tell where you cut them


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## PaMike

somedevildawg said:


> Lol....I bet I've cut at least two dozen cords with the "old school" electric hedge trimmer.....orange cords were best, they were easier to tell where you cut them


I thought only my wife did that...


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## Vol

I took 210 square bales to Knoxville today pulling some pretty long grades and with the 6 speed auto I watched my tach and it never got above 3500 rpms. The 6 speed transmission in these gas burners has made a big difference in how they operate. I have been told that GM and others will soon be using 8 speeds in the gas burners.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay

Vol said:


> I took 210 square bales to Knoxville today pulling some pretty long grades and with the 6 speed auto I watched my tach and it never got above 3500 rpms. The 6 speed transmission in these gas burners has made a big difference in how they operate. I have been told that GM and others will soon be using 8 speeds in the gas burners.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Well if you left it in 2nd gear you could get it up to 6000 rpm I suppose.


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## haybaler101

Only use 4 gears to pull a heavy load on my duramax, but it will run 60 mph at 2400 rpm in 4th gear. It will pull 10 ton in 6th gear but the pyro really heats up.


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## IH 1586

Vol said:


> I took 210 square bales to Knoxville today pulling some pretty long grades and with the 6 speed auto I watched my tach and it never got above 3500 rpms. The 6 speed transmission in these gas burners has made a big difference in how they operate. I have been told that GM and others will soon be using 8 speeds in the gas burners.
> 
> Regards, Mike


That would be nice in my pickup. Mine only has 4 and any time trailer is on I just keep it in 3 as it just wants to shift between 3 and overdrive. I will add that I do have a programmer on mine.


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## JD3430

swmnhay said:


> Well if you left it in 2nd gear you could get it up to 6000 rpm I suppose.


And when you start from a dead stop with a gasser and 10 tons behind the truck, it'll hit 6000 rpm in 2nd. I bet it does. Now do it a thousand times over the life of the truck. Throw some steep hills in the mix.

There ain't a thing wrong with a gas engine. Also nothing wrong with a 55HP tractor for 4x5 round baling, a 16 ounce framing hammer for driving 20p galvies into oak and a zebco 202 rod & reel from the dollar store for fishing.

They'll all probably do the job...... eventually......just might wear out a tad faster and be a bit more stressful to use. 

Right tool for the right job.


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## JD3430

haybaler101 said:


> Only use 4 gears to pull a heavy load on my duramax, but it will run 60 mph at 2400 rpm in 4th gear. It will pull 10 ton in 6th gear but the pyro really heats up.


Are you using tow/haul mode? 
If you have a pyro, I assume you also have a fuel chip? 
When towing, I'm told you need to turn off fueling boxes to avoid high EGT readings.

I just found someone to do a "delete" and SCT box on my truck and it's a box with "stock", "tow", and "street" modes. Supposedly the "tow" mode adds 40 more and re-maps the fuel to keep the EGTs low when towing. I have no interest in the street mode as it's a 550 and my racing days are long behind me


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## haybaler101

JD3430 said:


> Are you using tow/haul mode?
> If you have a pyro, I assume you also have a fuel chip?
> When towing, I'm told you need to turn off fueling boxes to avoid high EGT readings.
> I just found someone to do a "delete" and SCT box on my truck and it's a box with "stock", "tow", and "street" modes. Supposedly the "tow" mode adds 40 more and re-maps the fuel to keep the EGTs low when towing. I have no interest in the street mode as it's a 550 and my racing days are long behind me


4 stage tuner and I use tow mode. Pulls 10 ton in 6th gear @ 1500 rpm and 1300 degrees. 5th gear @ 1900 rpm and 1050 degrees and 4th gear @ 2400 rpm and 800 degrees. All at 60 mph.


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## JD3430

haybaler101 said:


> 4 stage tuner and I use tow mode. Pulls 10 ton in 6th gear @ 1500 rpm and 1300 degrees. 5th gear @ 1900 rpm and 1050 degrees and 4th gear @ 2400 rpm and 800 degrees. All at 60 mph.


Sound like 6th gear is lugging? Lugging creates heat.


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## haybaler101

JD3430 said:


> Sound like 6th gear is lugging? Lugging creates heat.


Exactly, that is what 4th and 5th are for


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## azmike

I am buying a friends 06 F-250 4x4 gas truck just to put my hunting Lance camper on. Low mileage and very clean/maintained but not worth squat for resale!


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## endrow

azmike said:


> I am buying a friends 06 F-250 4x4 gas truck just to put my hunting Lance camper on. Low mileage and very clean/maintained but not worth squat for resale!


 and there is the one beauty of the gas truck if you can get by with a little less torque and towing capacity. There are so many people that cannot pay $60,000 for a new one or $30k for a used one .


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## IH 1586

I don't buy thinking about resale. I buy what I need and of the last 5 vehicles, 2 went to junk yard, 1 through auction, and resold 1 when I upgraded to current truck. I plan on running them all until junkyard status when I buy. If resale value is the main focus on buying then we should all have JD tractors.


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## somedevildawg

IH 1586 said:


> I don't buy thinking about resale. I buy what I need and of the last 5 vehicles, 2 went to junk yard, 1 through auction, and resold 1 when I upgraded to current truck. I plan on running them all until junkyard status when I buy. If resale value is the main focus on buying then we should all have JD tractors.


I may be wrong....but I believe he was referring to the other side of poor resale.....YOU can buy them much cheaper and drive em till the wheels fall off (and then put new wheels on  )


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## IH 1586

somedevildawg said:


> I may be wrong....but I believe he was referring to the other side of poor resale.....YOU can buy them much cheaper and drive em till the wheels fall off (and then put new wheels on  )


There was an earlier post about the salesman recommending purchasing diesel for the resale value I believe. I was just making the quote that when buying, resale/trade-in value is the furthest from ones mind. Unless your jockeying equipment I would believe your looking for function, features, pricing, financing, to name a few.

I personally don't plan on spending an extra $20,000 to gain the extra $10,000 when I am ready to get rid of it. (prices are an example, don't quote me)


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## JD3430

IH 1586 said:


> There was an earlier post about the salesman recommending purchasing diesel for the resale value I believe. I was just making the quote that when buying, resale/trade-in value is the furthest from ones mind. Unless your jockeying equipment I would believe your looking for function, features, pricing, financing, to name a few.
> 
> I personally don't plan on spending an extra $20,000 to gain the extra $10,000 when I am ready to get rid of it. (prices are an example, don't quote me)


....."extra $20,000".....is a bit inflated.
A used diesel truck is about $3-4,000 more than a similar used gas truck.
Even new, Ford charges about $8,000 more than a similar gasser


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## azmike

I have been thinking about this thread. I don't remember ever "junking" any truck or car. I always sold before they were trashed. My wife loved an old Mercedes diesel, a great cruiser. The car was over 200,000 miles and all signs pointed to expensive repairs--so it was sold for what was a fair value. I saw it a few months later on the hook of a tow truck!

We also try and sell old cows before they are just a backhoe job!


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## luke strawwalker

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Surprise! 18-wheelers are switching to CNG (compressed natural gas) which is basically a gas engine (spark plugs, etc) with a modified fuel system.


Well, in all fairness CNG and propane act more like diesel than gasoline. For one thing, propane has 110 octane rating naturally (gasoline only gets it's "anti-knock" properties from adding octane to the fuel, which costs extra, hence the extra cost for higher octane-rated gasoline blends (87,89, 91 "Supreme" which AIN'T "supreme" like the old days!) You can easily run 12:1 compression in a gas engine running on propane and get a big boost in efficiency and power, where basically even getting 9.5-10:1 compression ratios with pump gas without knocking is difficult... Propane and CNG (methane) is "dry" gas, ie not a liquid that is atomized (sprayed) into the airstream entering the engine like gasoline is. That means it can handle modern long-run high-torque manifold designs that would have gasoline wetting out on the walls of the manifold and pooling in low spots in the manifold runs and all that (gasoline is typically run in heated manifolds to keep it vaporized). Propane is of course stored in liquid form, which is much more dense, meaning you can carry a lot more of it, the pressure is reduced in a regulator and then heated up in a "vaporizer" (intercooler, basically) that uses engine coolant to heat the propane enough so it turns to vapor, and the vapor is then metered into the airstream entering the engine in a "mixer" (carburetor). Methane (CNG) has a much lower boiling point than propane (LPG); going from memory the boiling point of CNG/methane is -290 degrees (similar to liquid oxygen, which is sparking a lot of interest in using LNG (liquid methane) as a rocket fuel, since its boiling point is very similar to oxygen, meaning they could be stored in a common bulkhead tank with few insulation/boiloff issues or fuel freezing problems (liquid oxygen at -290 degrees F will freeze kerosene into solid ice unless proper insulation measures are taken, and liquid hydrogen at -453 degrees F will freeze liquid oxygen into solid ice as well). Having both propellants have similar boiling temps makes design issues easier).

Anyway, LNG requires active refrigeration and/or sophisticated dewars to store as a liquid, or containment at extremely high pressures, which isn't particularly amenable to common vehicles, so CNG (compressed natural gas) is used instead, which is stored in high-pressure gas cylinders (like welding gases). These cylinders contain the gas at very high pressures, which then has to be regulated down to safe operating pressures. Being stored as a gas, means that the methane need only be regulated down from the very high storage pressure in the cylinder to "line pressure" and then metered into the engine airstream through a mixer. Essentially, other than the metering device and mixer, its the same hardware used in gas welding/blowtorches. The problem is, being a gas, the only way you can carry enough is to compress it to very high pressures, and even then it still takes up SO much space compared to a liquid fuel (like LNG) that it's inefficient. Propane also contains a lot more energy per gallon than methane does, meaning it takes more methane to do the same work as a gallon of propane... and it takes more propane to do the same work than it does for a gallon of alcohol, and more alcohol than a gallon of gasoline, and more gasoline than a gallon of diesel... simply because of the energy density of diesel over gasoline, alcohol, propane, and methane (in that descending order of energy density). SO, IOW, you need a LOT more methane to do the same amount of work as a given amount of diesel... (or even gasoline). Yet, since the methane is only storable as a compressed gas, you can only carry a LOT less than you can dense liquid diesel... so the range is REALLY limited.

I studied all this when I nearly went to work for Metro working on gas-conversion city buses... it's interesting but for local delivery work or short hauls it's feasible, but for over-the-road, not so much.

Remember too that in the 70's it was quite common for guys to add propane injection to their diesel farm tractors to increase the power and reduce fuel consumption... I've read in Farm Show magazine about guys doing that even with modern pickups...

Diesels operating in a "bi-fuel" type setup (burning both CNG and diesel at the same time) don't need electronic ignition-- the diesel can provide the ignition and proper timing of ignition in the cylinder to burn the mixture... engines running COMPLETELY on CNG or propane need an electronic ignition system (spark plugs and related hardware) just like a gasoline engine...

Personally I'd LOVE to see a lot more done with propane... it's a good balance between CNG and gasoline or diesel... it burns clean and the engines last forever, and they can be designed to take advantage of the exceptionally high octane rating and run 12:1 compression (which will produce a lot more power more efficiently, which is a big part of the reason diesel engines are so efficient and powerful-- the really high compression ratios required for compression-ignition engines 18-20:1 or more). Worst thing Detroit ever did was cut back the compression ratios in the 70's to reduce NOX emissions-- the engines got very LIMP and WEAK, horsepower fell through the floor, and the fuel economy SUCKED... It's only been in the last 10-15 years or so that we've started to see the compression ratios ratcheting back up somewhat-- but nobody wants to buy super-expensive "premium" gasoline (which is required to prevent knocking at higher compression ratios). So that keeps production of higher compression engines down...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

haybaler101 said:


> On a very limited basis. One local truck company is going this way but they have their own fueling station and the trucks stay within that range. They are also low hp fleet trucks. The same companies otr's are high hp diesels.


Same reason you won't be seeing "electric semis" anytime soon (despite Tesla's recent unveiling of one). The energy density and recharge times for batteries is just awful, so you have NO range on them...

Local "in-town" deliveries, especially in traffic, with regenerative braking, sure, electrics can work (just as that's the best application for battery-powered electric commuter cars. Take them on the "open road" and your battery is dead in 60-70 miles and needs a half-day to recharge. Hence "hybrids"... carry the energy as energy-dense liquid fuel, burn it to produce electric power to move the vehicle and/or charge the batteries. Not particularly practical for cargo trucks where every extra pound of propulsion system is a pound less cargo you can carry...

The *only* way I could see "battery-powered semis" working is if you made the entire battery module a "plug-n-play" system that basically could be swapped out as easily as we change batteries on a rechargeable drill or impact driver... Of course for a semi it would have to be a LOT bigger, maybe something that a forklift or special fixture could "lock on to" and simply slide out of the front of the truck's frame (where the radiator and engine would normally sit on a diesel or IC powered truck) and slide another one into place, with the connections made "automatically"... theoretically with such a system a truck would be capable of being "refueled" and back on the road within minutes-- probably less time than needed to fuel up a regular semi's tanks with diesel... The removed battery could be recharged and in a few hours be ready to go into another semi arriving in need of a charged battery...

I've seen some CNG powered trains on YouTube... but they have to pull huge "tenders" behind them or between the engines, essentially "tankers" to carry the massive amounts of high-pressure natural gas used to power the locomotives... of course in the railroad industry this isn't a problem since trains don't have the kind of weight limits and issues that trucks must deal with...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

FarmerCline said:


> No gas burner for me.....I had a 99 Chevrolet 3500 with a 350 gas engine and it was an underpowered gas guzzling sob. When pulling a load in the hills around here it would get 4 mpg. Now I'm sure the new gas burners are much improved but personally I would not buy one in a heavy duty pickup unless it was just going to be a grocery getter for running around town......which brings up the question of in that case why are you buying a heavy duty pickup instead of a half ton?
> 
> I actually almost bought a new ton truck with a gas engine a few years ago because of the lower purchase cost. I realized though I would never be fully satisfied with the gas burner so I opted to either wait until I could afford the extra cost of a diesel or buy a used diesel truck. Glad I made that decision and I thank the good Lord every morning I wake up that I didn't buy that gas burner.
> 
> One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the high resale value of used diesel pickups. It's amazing how well they hold their value.......that's why I haven't bought one yet and have been using a diesel straight truck for my hauling needs. When my dad bought his new f350 diesel last fall the salesman told him if you ever think about selling/trading the truck be sure and spend the extra to get a diesel as you will easily get that back but on a gas burner you will take a bath.....he said they wouldn't hardly trade for a gas burner as they are a tougher resell.
> 
> Hayden


A LOT of that resale value is in the fact that the older diesels don't have all the emission crap and DEF and other nonsense that the new trucks have... which is why a lot of used farm equipment is holding it's value extremely well compared to similar age/condition used equipment did BEFORE all this emission crap started being grafted onto farm machinery...

It'll be interesting to see what the longevity and resale is on this "early diesel emission" stuff compared to the "non-emission" diesel's resale "now".... At some point the gubmint is GOING to put a stop to "deleting" emissions stuff (surprised they haven't already actually) and then there's going to be a LOT of "deleted" pickups looking for a home... The value of "pollution controlled" diesels then will be determined by the maintenance costs...

The emissions crap on gassers isn't cheap, either. I'm on the third set of catalytic converters on my 02 F-150 SuperCrew... we use it for a lot of highway miles, but we use it for a lot of 10,000 lb+ towing jobs on the farm as well, usually at a minimum 100 mile trips towing that much between our two farms, sometimes more. When you're pulling that hard in rolling hills and long distances at 60-70 mph, those cats get HOT... She's got 320,000 miles on her though, so I can't complain TOO much; but I'd rather that the stupid cats weren't there AT ALL... Replacing THOSE suckers ain't cheap, either...

I've been thinking really hard about getting an older diesel pickup myself... I don't like "new" trucks AT ALL (too many bells-n-whistles, too much money, as we say, "all hat and no cows"-- made for a weekend toy for citiots, not a real work truck). New diesels are WAY too expensive and new gassers are too finicky... (when the stupid truck turns itself off at a red light and then cranks up and goes when it turns green, I DON'T WANT IT!!!) I like the older stuff.

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker

NewBerlinBaler said:


> Economics is what's driving this.
> 
> Right now, CNG is the equivalent of around 20 cents / gallon. As more CNG refueling stations come on line, all trucking companies will eventually be forced to convert their fleets from diesel to gas. They simply cannot remain competitive if they keep paying 15+ times more for fuel than other trucking firms that already made the switch to CNG. I notice truck stops along I-80 are now advertising that they have CNG. This is just a matter of time, 5 years perhaps?
> 
> So then the big question becomes - will diesel fuel still be available when demand drops so much? Remember, about 90% of the diesel fuel that's refined in the USA goes to 18-wheelers. Big Oil will likely decide that it's simply not profitable to continue refining, storing, transporting, distributing, etc, diesel.
> 
> In time, the diesel engine will likely go the way of the typewriter (replaced by the PC) or the coal-fired power plant (soon to be replaced by natural gas-fired plants) etc.


CNG is cheap now BECAUSE there is so little demand for it... If CNG becomes "the next big thing" like you assume, the price WILL jump significantly as demand increases (captive market and all that). Similarly, if diesel demand drops, diesel will get cheaper because there'll be less demand for it... It'll all even out in the end.

Natural gas fired plants are popular with utilities and power companies because they are CHEAP to build... all you need is access to a pipeline, and it's basically a burner, a boiler, a turbine generator, and a cooling tower or reservoir for cooling. Gas turbine (engine) type power plants don't even need the demineralized water as a working fluid nor cooling towers/reservoirs...

Figure all the gas finds that have been made (Bakken shale up north, Eagle Ford shale in Texas) and all the alternative gas supplies (methane clathrates in the oceans) that have made gas an attractive alternative that looks to have a good future. BUT, high demand creates high prices...

Remember too that there's hundreds of times more coal in the ground than oil/gas combined... While experts argue over "peak oil" and whether we have enough oil and gas to power the world for the next 30, 50, 70, or 100 years, and estimate new finds and new technologies unlocking reserves we cannot produce economically, we KNOW we have enough coal in the ground to power civilization for hundreds of years, if not longer... Burning it outright "old style" isn't the future, but coal gasification and other technologies will ensure that coal will play some part for a LONG time to come...

Later! OL J R


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## Chris Mills

Ain't that the truth, During my last year in school all the boys were buying diesels with daddy's money and jacking them up. I just stuck to my 84 chevy k20, 3 speed with 350, 4:10 rearend, 8 mpg. Pulls great, plus it's cheap to change oil.



Vol said:


> That seems to be a thing that many folks have trouble actually calculating. Often it is more of a rationalization than a true justification. Lots of high schoolers running diesels out there and some adults that act like they are still there...
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## Frantz

I used to sell commercial Fords myself. If you use the truck hard every day the diesel is the only way to go. If you are looking for a 20 year truck that goes to the tractor supply store more often than it's hauling loads then the gas probably will win out. Frankly if you're only hauling heavy once in a while it probably is worth just paying someone else to haul it those times. Gotta sort out the numbers and see what makes sense. For me right now my 1979 F250 gasser works just fine for hauling equipment around to different fields. I'm gonna have the hay all hauled for me other than a few small bales for some local folks. I'd like to upgrade to a newer F350 DRW for hauling hay better myself, but that'll be a gas model too when the time comes. My farm operation is still a baby. No manuals anymore unless you get a Ram Diesel, which is a shame from the drivers perspective, but the new autos really do pretty well and hold up too.

On the natural gas option, you can typically order the prep kit from new if you do factory orders. With Ford I remember it being under $300. Basically hardened valves and a few changes. The actual conversion is thousands more, but I would want to option just to be a little more "future ready" if the time comes up on us quick.

Edit.... I'd rather have a cheap diesel truck than a spend extra money on options... Funny how quick $9k engine doesn't look like much next to $20k in moon roofs, butt rubbing seats, and what not. I know most folks her probably go more basic, but even then, it's a small percentage to go diesel so far as upfront cost goes and you get it on resale. I'd be tempted to sell before it's outta warranty. There are economically smart ways to do that with tax write offs and such.


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## Wcbr1025

I just run the heck out of my 2003 Chevy 6.0 gasser, I pull 10-14k behind it pretty regular and she ain’t gonna win any races but the body will rust out on a Chevy before the 6.0 does


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## DavidU

Just ordered a 2019 Ford 6.2 gasser after having one ton diesels since the Ford 7.3. I won’t count the debacle of buying a 1982 Chevy 350 “diesel”. Had major expensive repairs on all of them including engine removed and major overhaul at first oil change. High velocity fuel pump replaced. Radiator replaced. Turbos replaced. Multiple check engine lights and back to service shop. And none of them had over 120000 miles with light and some moderate towing. The sales person looked at my 6.4 Ford 350 and commented it was the cleanest 2008 he had seen, but it’s a 6.4 and we can’t offer very much because of all the problems they’ve had. Yea right.


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## KYhaymaker

My old 7.3 just keeps on ticking. I put an intercooler on it to keep the temps where they should be and its good to go.


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## JD3430

DavidU said:


> Just ordered a 2019 Ford 6.2 gasser after having one ton diesels since the Ford 7.3. I won't count the debacle of buying a 1982 Chevy 350 "diesel". Had major expensive repairs on all of them including engine removed and major overhaul at first oil change. High velocity fuel pump replaced. Radiator replaced. Turbos replaced. Multiple check engine lights and back to service shop. And none of them had over 120000 miles with light and some moderate towing. The sales person looked at my 6.4 Ford 350 and commented it was the cleanest 2008 he had seen, but it's a 6.4 and we can't offer very much because of all the problems they've had. Yea right.


Have 2 with a combined 300,000 miles on them. One HP fuel pump and both have broken DPFs.

There's nothing wrong with the 6.4! 
It's the Mickey Mouse DPF that ruins it! 
Gosh I hope I'm right about the above statements! LOL


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## luke strawwalker

DavidU said:


> Just ordered a 2019 Ford 6.2 gasser after having one ton diesels since the Ford 7.3. I won't count the debacle of buying a 1982 Chevy 350 "diesel". Had major expensive repairs on all of them including engine removed and major overhaul at first oil change. High velocity fuel pump replaced. Radiator replaced. Turbos replaced. Multiple check engine lights and back to service shop. And none of them had over 120000 miles with light and some moderate towing. The sales person looked at my 6.4 Ford 350 and commented it was the cleanest 2008 he had seen, but it's a 6.4 and we can't offer very much because of all the problems they've had. Yea right.


Oh, you couldn't GIVE me one of these "Ford" diesels... after their 6.0 debacle and the newer ones are NO better... my nephews have had 3 of them and every single one has had MAJOR problems, one traded off before it became "apparent" and the other two cost $10,000 and $6,000 to fix, respectively... Nope, Ford doesn't have a clue how to build a decent diesel engine that will LAST...

Stupidest thing Ford ever did was quit using the Navistar engines... those old 7.3's just keep going. I'd buy a 7.3 in a heartbeat... You could give me a brand new Ford pickup and I'd gladly trade it for a well-kept 7.3...

I'll just keep running my 02 F-150 Supercrew for now, though... she's the 4.6 V-8 automatic and she's got 325,000 miles on it now, getting a little tired but she's still running fine. Kinda curious to see how long she'll last actually. I paid $17,500 for it as a 2 year old trade in back in 04 when we found out we were having a baby and that don't work well with carseats in standard cabs... it had 29,000 on it at the time. It's done a LOT of farm hauling since then and a LOT of highway miles as well... can't complain. I'd buy another one...

Later! OL J R


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## JD3430

Well there's a lot of "internet hysteria" about these trucks, too. Some is deserved, some isnt.
Anyone wants to give me a Ford diesel truck, I'd take it in a heartbeat. In fact, you want to give me a 6L, 6.4L or 6.7L equipped truck in good conditions, I'll run naked down my towns street if the keys for it are waiting for me at the other end of town. Haha. 
Sure, every thousand or so trucks you get a lemon, and some truck engines fared better than others, but I've got a combined 300,000 on 2 6.4's and deleted, they're excellent trucks and have served me very well. 
I've delivered 8,000 4x5 round bales and about 10,0000 small squares with my '08 F-550 6.4L diesel in the last 6 years and I've had 2 "major" repairs, a DPF sensor ($1,000) and a high pressure fuel pump ($3,000). It's rated with a max GCWR or 33,000, but I've been running it at 36,000 for the last few years and the truck still looks and runs good. No signs of tiring out. 
As far as Ford not knowing how to build Diesel engines that will last, I'd disagree. They built 2 pretty good tractor & truck engines that were mainstays of the Ford diesel tractors of the 70's-mid 90's. They were the 6.6L and 7.8L "Brazilian" diesels. They were also very popular in Ford vocational medium duty trucks.


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