# Hay storage



## Tkekic (Sep 16, 2013)

Got another question for the experts out there. Back round information: NE Ohio, small square bales broken up to feed horses inside their stalls. Over the years no matter what we have tried to keep our hay healthy during the winter and spring. We have tried visquine under the bottom row, pallets and visquine under the bottom row, pallets only under the bottom row, pallets and a tarp under the bottom row, nothing has worked. The bottom layer and at times at least some of the second layer also goes bad. I have read on this forum that leaving hay on the wagon is a good idea because of the fact that air can get under the hay to keep it from becoming dusty (mold). Taking this idea a bit further I was thinking of building a platform in my barn to store the hay on. Here are my questions: is a platform a good idea? (mine would be 12' by 27') How high off the barn floor should the platform be? 1-2 or 3 feet? How heavy would the cross members need to be? (the supporting posts would be 4x4 popular posts) Does the platform surface need to have space between the boards or can plywood be used? I really cannot store my hay on my wagons as I store 1000+ bales and I only have three wagons. Comments and ideas would be most welcome.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Pallets and plastic ought to be enough. You definitely shouldn't have spoilage in the second layer. Do you have an inordinate amount of moisture wicking out of your floor (btw, what type of floor do you have)? OR are you baling at a moisture level that's borderline too high?


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## Tkekic (Sep 16, 2013)

We try to go three days between cutting with a conditioner and baling. Do not know the moisture content. The floor of the barn is compacted dirt. In a heavy rain we at times get a trickle of water in the barn.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

How far off the ground are your bales? I agree with 8350hitech that the moisture is wicking up more than you think. Secondly, spend the cash and buy a Delmhorst moisture tester. $350 doesn't buy much hay anymore.


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## Tkekic (Sep 16, 2013)

The bales are about 3" off the ground. What we have resorted to is writing off the entire bottom layer and disposing of them when the new hay comes in. Got to be a way to save the bottom layer. I will look into the moisture tested. Thanks.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Why not leave the junk layer there? No point hauling out a junk layer just to put in a good layer that your going to haul out as junk next year. You could also try putting a layer of loose hay or chaff between the skids and first layer.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> Why not leave the junk layer there? No point hauling out a junk layer just to put in a good layer that your going to haul out as junk next year. You could also try putting a layer of loose hay or chaff between the skids and first layer.


I like the idea of leaving a sacrifice layer, especially as the floor sounds too wet to me. I don't like the idea of chaff on the skids, though. It will sift down into the intended air gap and ruin any potential ability to air dry the excess moisture.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I've stored hay on a platform made of 2x4's on edge with plywood over clay dirt and never lost a single bale. Losing the first two layers suggests that something else is going on.

My first guess would be that, while you're not get water into the barn, you may have a drainage problem outside the barn that is causing high ground moisture. I put a "trough" around my barns to help suck water away from the edges. I also put 2' of 3/4 clear around my hay barn (a tarp building) to make sure that all water was flowing away.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I think the problem with putting good hay on top of bad is like throwing a bad apple into a barrel of good...


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

stack em up said:


> I think the problem with putting good hay on top of bad is like throwing a bad apple into a barrel of good...


Depends how bad. If it's just musty, I wouldn't worry. If worse than that, I would.

If the sacrifice layer has a chance to air out some before new hay is put on top, that would help it tremendously.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

8350HiTech said:


> I like the idea of leaving a sacrifice layer, especially as the floor sounds too wet to me. I don't like the idea of chaff on the skids, though. It will sift down into the intended air gap and ruin any potential ability to air dry the excess moisture.


I meant with a tarp or plastic between the skid and chaff just forgot to put it in there lol.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

stack em up said:


> I think the problem with putting good hay on top of bad is like throwing a bad apple into a barrel of good...


One old barn I stack in has the same old crappy chaff from 40 years ago. No different then crappy old bales as long as they are not rotten it will be ok.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Sounds like some crazy amount of ground moisture. We have a lot of moisture ourselves and when necessary to field stack we break up some mulch hay and stack on that. Rarely do we lose a bale let alone a couple layers up. How's the ventilation and what is the sheds construction?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> I meant with a tarp or plastic between the skid and chaff just forgot to put it in there lol.


Let's take that a step further and put down a layer of pallets, then plastic, then another layer of pallets. Or straw bales. They'd be good too.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

8350HiTech said:


> Let's take that a step further and put down a layer of pallets, then plastic, then another layer of pallets. Or straw bales. They'd be good too.


Ya and a cheap sacrifice but better chance of critters getting in them to.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I've stacked on soaking wet dirt in open front run down shed, and we have lots of rainfall. We put down tarps then the pallets then old dry broken bales. Stacked on that. Only lost bales under the sheets of tin with nail holes.

2 layers bad on bottom means too much moisture coming up from ground. Not sure what visquine is but plastic sheet of good thickness with wide overlap is needed. The pallets need to be aligned so the channels can move air under the stack. They need to have a gap at the ends so the air can move through. The broken bales are only there like a desiccant pack in a shipping box to sop up any short peaks in moisture. It can't fix continuous leaks or standing water.

If your hay is wet going in, it will dust where it touches the pallet boards even in the driest barn.

We leave a layer in our dairy barn as the moisture coming up from the animals below ruins a layer of hay. I used to be picky about cleaning it out but like the posts above say its a waste.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

How well sealed up is the building? Maybe need some vents? If moisture is coming up out of ground and building is well sealed nowhere for the extra vapour to go. Maybe need to raid an old hog barn with all the slatted flooring?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

From a guy that's lived on a clay farm his entire life and has been installing drain tile almost as long, sounds to me like you have more moisture in your barn that you think.

We installed a tile under each hoop building before erection, round bales are stacked on pallets with no plastic. Only way you can tell the bottom bales are bottom bales is you can see a pallet pattern on the bales but no mold or dust.

Removed all the top soil as well then replaced with more railroad rock than it had for soil. Even after the wet fall we had and cold winter, I haven't had a single pallet froze down yet.


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## Fowllife (Sep 10, 2010)

I agree, I would start with some drain tile & a good layer of stone.

Is there much air flow through the rest of the barn?

If you really want to do a platform, it will work also. A buddy of mine boards horses & ended up doing that. His is about 12-16" above the floor. I thin he just used 2x10's or 2x12's & laid in on a grid of 4x6's. It just sits on the ground & isn't anchored at all.


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## enos (Dec 6, 2009)

Ashphalt


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> Why not leave the junk layer there? No point hauling out a junk layer just to put in a good layer that your going to haul out as junk next year. You could also try putting a layer of loose hay or chaff between the skids and first layer.


That has been our philosophy for the last 50 years


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Tkekic said:


> We try to go three days between cutting with a conditioner and baling. Do not know the moisture content. The floor of the barn is compacted dirt. In a heavy rain we at times get a trickle of water in the barn.


There's your problem. Floor moisture. 
I would say that you need to do a cost/benefit analysis on if the cost and time to build the platform will pay off in good versus spoiled bottom bales. 
Air space will help but the bottom layer will continue to wick up moisture. 
I would suggest a layer of drained rock and some kind of cross ventilation under the bales. Gotta get rid of the water and moisture vapors.

Wasteful as it sounds, most of my buyers just sacrifice the lower layer and feed it to goats, cattle or other uses.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Moisture evaporating out of the ground is frequently an issue for me. I stack on dirt base with about 1" of fine gravel. I put heavy mil plastic down and then stack on pallets on top of the plastic. Usually don't have a problem with the bottom layer.

I said "usually". This past year has been exceptionally wet for us. I noticed my bottom layer has about 1/4" layer of discoloration and some mildew/mold. I'll probably knock a dollar or two off the price and sell it for mulch. I may also need to bring in a couple loads of gravel and make sure the grading around my barns / shed is sloped enough for proper drainage.


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## InterLake (Nov 28, 2012)

Only once did I have a problem with moisture wicking up to the second layer. This was on toward summer after a very wet spring. I put automatic bale wagon stacks in my pole shed on two inch clean crushed rock with old leaves and stuff left on top. If the hay is moved out within a few months, the bottom layer is usually good for horses. I have other sheds where I hand stack. I leave the old bottom layer. It is usually good for stacking on for several years.

My suggestions are: make sure the hay is baled dry, have good drainage in the building and all around the building, put plasic on the ground, put pallets or a platform above the plastic and have good ventilation under, around, between and over the bales. If that doesn't work, give up and by hay as you need it.


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## HayMike (Mar 22, 2011)

Asphalt, with drainage around building. We went from losing whole bottom layer to losing none.


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## clowers (Feb 11, 2011)

Concrete


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

clowers said:


> Concrete


No disrespect intended but concrete sweats, even with a vapor barrier under it concrete can still sweat. Original poster is from my neck of the woods, wetter weather with wide temperature swings.

I've heard good things about asphalt though.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

It seems the tar and oil in asphalt does a good job of rejecting water vapors from below. 
Concrete will wick up moisture.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> It seems the tar and oil in asphalt does a good job of rejecting water vapors from below.
> Concrete will wick up moisture.


Hmmmm I have noticed that the concrete floor in my house, storage building and shop seems to hold water if you put it on top of the concrete but never noticed any wicking up thru the concrete. I wonder why it doesn't wick down thru the concrete. I usually have to mop it up if it is poured on top. Guess I need to pay more attention.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rajela said:


> Hmmmm I have noticed that the concrete floor in my house, storage building and shop seems to hold water if you put it on top of the concrete but never noticed any wicking up thru the concrete. I wonder why it doesn't wick down thru the concrete. I usually have to mop it up if it is poured on top. Guess I need to pay more attention.


Hydraulic pressure under the concrete, that and water vapor tends to travel up, least thats my uneducamatated theory.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Concrete absorbs moisture easier from beneath cause it has not been worked and sealed from troweling it tends to stand or shed off on top but given time it will migrate both ways


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rajela said:


> Hmmmm I have noticed that the concrete floor in my house, storage building and shop seems to hold water if you put it on top of the concrete but never noticed any wicking up thru the concrete. I wonder why it doesn't wick down thru the concrete. I usually have to mop it up if it is poured on top. Guess I need to pay more attention.


maybe you don't have water under your concrete to wick up......


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Yea that's it I don't have any water under my concrete....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rajela said:


> Yea that's it I don't have any water under my concrete....


Sorry, I guess I don't understand what you mean.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

My first choice for a barn floor is obvious, concrete. All kinds of advantages to concrete, with a good moisture barrier, one shouldn't have wicking through the concrete. It's easy to tell slabs that were poured before moisture barriers can about.....the problem with concrete can be summed up in one word "expensive" and it just keeps on costing year after year....at least in my locale


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm not familiar with moisture barriers but our concrete carport on a humid rainy day sweats so much you better step carefully or you will slip and bust your rear end.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

FarmerCline said:


> I'm not familiar with moisture barriers but our concrete carport on a humid rainy day sweats so much you better step carefully or you will slip and bust your rear end.


A moisture barrier is simply a sheet of 4 mil plastic on top of the stone before pouring slab.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I pretty much agree with most of the theories here, but I suspect the barn is too tight and it needs some ventilation. I have high ground water, a lot of humidity, and a lot of rain in the winter. My sheds have crushed concrete floors and the hay sets on 6'X6' pallets made with 2x6 spacers. But, the sheds are three-sided and we tarp the front to protect from blowing rain. I never loose a bale.....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Mike120 said:


> I pretty much agree with most of the theories here, but I suspect the barn is too tight and it needs some ventilation. I have high ground water, a lot of humidity, and a lot of rain in the winter. My sheds have crushed concrete floors and the hay sets on 6'X6' pallets made with 2x6 spacers. But, the sheds are three-sided and we tarp the front to protect from blowing rain. I never loose a bale.....


Mike do you remember what you paid for the crushed concrete? I've been trying to find some locally, its dependent on what type of demo is going on around here at the time. Have seen some high prices, had a fella want to sell my some red brick crush the other day, good looking stuff, itll make you barn look like an infield....it'll probably be milled asphalt for my barn, I-75 is about 1 1/2 miles away, they're ALWAYS working on it....

A tight barn can definitely a problem for hay...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Word of caution: crushed concrete really can pull up water and get "pumpy"


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The water in that case is coming from the air. The slab is colder than the air so the air dumps the extra humidity on it.



FarmerCline said:


> I'm not familiar with moisture barriers but our concrete carport on a humid rainy day sweats so much you better step carefully or you will slip and bust your rear end.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Mike do you remember what you paid for the crushed concrete? I've been trying to find some locally, its dependent on what type of demo is going on around here at the time. Have seen some high prices, had a fella want to sell my some red brick crush the other day, good looking stuff, itll make you barn look like an infield....it'll probably be milled asphalt for my barn, I-75 is about 1 1/2 miles away, they're ALWAYS working on it....
> 
> A tight barn can definitely a problem for hay...


It usually depends on what's available....I also use "washout" when it's available. Typically, I've been paying around $150 for 8-9 yards for either. Washout is what they collect when they wash out the mix-trucks. They'll add some cement to it and my guy brings it wet. You've got to spread it before it sets up but the stuff works great. I use both for the parking around my barn and usually add 2-3 loads per year to fill in any low spots. I've got sandy loam sitting on top of a clay layer at about 4-5' deep so it takes a while to stabilize it. When I built the big arena, we did it on top of a previous dirt arena that I had added sand to for a number of years...probably about 60-80 loads. After we scrapped it and hit it with a vibratory roller the dump truck wouldn't even leave tracks. We put down 8" of crushed concrete in 2" lifts with an asphalt machine to build a crown for drainage and rolled it with the vibratory roller and got a very solid base. When I build a building I usually build a 2-3' deep pad with select fill to pour the slab on. With the hay sheds, I put down about 1' of fill, compacted it and put about 4" of crushed concrete on top of that. With compaction, it keeps the bottom of the pallets about 3" above ground height and gives critters/feral cats a place to live....my contribution to nature.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When I put down a gravel base, I use a very simple technique to help with stability. It sounds like it wouldn't do anything, but it helps.
Lets say you're putting down 4" gravel in 2" lifts. 
Instead, put a thinner 1" layer down first. Tamp it with tamper. It'll "bite" the soil underneath better than a 2" layer to start. Then add 2 more layers on top in 1.5" lifts. 
It's an extra layer of tamping, but it has helped the tightness of my gravel bases a lot.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Mike120 said:


> It usually depends on what's available....I also use "washout" when it's available. Typically, I've been paying around $150 for 8-9 yards for either. Washout is what they collect when they wash out the mix-trucks. They'll add some cement to it and my guy brings it wet. You've got to spread it before it sets up but the stuff works great. I use both for the parking around my barn and usually add 2-3 loads per year to fill in any low spots. I've got sandy loam sitting on top of a clay layer at about 4-5' deep so it takes a while to stabilize it. When I built the big arena, we did it on top of a previous dirt arena that I had added sand to for a number of years...probably about 60-80 loads. After we scrapped it and hit it with a vibratory roller the dump truck wouldn't even leave tracks. We put down 8" of crushed concrete in 2" lifts with an asphalt machine to build a crown for drainage and rolled it with the vibratory roller and got a very solid base. When I build a building I usually build a 2-3' deep pad with select fill to pour the slab on. With the hay sheds, I put down about 1' of fill, compacted it and put about 4" of crushed concrete on top of that. With compaction, it keeps the bottom of the pallets about 3" above ground height and gives critters/feral cats a place to live....my contribution to nature.


Very good and if a barn owl or hawk happens to swoop in you get to see Mother Nature in action while you work....it's a win win for everybody


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