# Organic and all natura beef



## simangus (May 13, 2012)

Any one doing either or. Here in N.M.there is a big push towards organic goods. Just wondering if the premium price is worth the extra effort.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When farming goes organic, they'll be putting 10' tall barbed wire around farm fields. Prices will be 5-10x what they are now.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Organic farming will fix the obesity crisis as well. Going to be a lot of hungry people.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

We sold grass fed beef for a while. We finished the steers on a pelleted feed, 1/3 peanut hulls,1/3 soy hulls and 1/3 corn gluten.

People did not want to even pay market value. The average person wanting "fresh off the farm" does not understand they are seeking a custom product.

We were selling the beef on the rail at current USDA posted prices. Buyers just did not understand why we charged the going rate and that they were not saving huge amounts of money buying direct from the farm.

If a person decides to raise natural/organic/grass fed or any type custom route then I suggest getting a deposit from the buyer before taking the steer to be processed.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

in this area" certified organic" is what the people need to see before they will pay big money. Anything else is just a big maybe


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

haybaler101 said:


> Organic farming will fix the obesity crisis as well. Going to be a lot of hungry people.


I have to disagree with the hungry people statement. Organic farming can provide good yields, not to mention it is nutritionally superior. Basically its higher octane food.
Most people in the US are obese yet nutrient wise they are malnourished.
Generally I don't think people starve from a lack of food but a lack of distribution, whether it be transport, weath, and so on. Tons and tons and tons of food goes to waste every day, yet people people starve.


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## simangus (May 13, 2012)

I appreciate the responses, We here in northern N.M. have a lot of markets that are organic or all natural .I understand that there are unique circumstances trying to market these products. I suppose the best way would be to contract with a buyer. My ? Is,are all the hoops one has to jump thru worth all the added labor.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I guess it all dependson how much you like paperwork. There are many hoops that don't even make any sense. I could buy a conventional cow feed her organically for a year while keeping her out of production then she could be certified. However calves I had at time of beginning transition could never become certified. The three year transition period selling conventionally while tripling inputs having to buy organic didn't pencil out for me. Plus, once you go organic, you take an awful lot of very effective remedies off the table. I like to be able to have options. I also don't like some pencil neck jerk right off of some commune waltzing in and poking around in everything without the slightest regard for biosecurity.

I did not feel the hoops were worth it. I have several cousins who went organic and do very well. I do like the fact that by serving a market that pays higher helps to preserve the small family farm and the traditions/values that are intrinsic to them. I wish that the inputs were more reasonable.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

If the question to you is purely financial you will not benefit. I would venture to say that you will quit before the payoff (which may be far off). Unless you have a (large) buyer or two lined up.

Those doing well in non commodity markets need alternative outlets. That is where the real work is going to come in. Convincing someone to buy your product at a premium.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I know some people that are going the natural route with cattle. It can work. One guy sells fats to a natural outfit, and it works for him.

I have a neighbor that sells natural meet at another neighbors fruit stand. It has been working well, but its a lot of work. They have to butcher and package meat, then stock the frig at the market stand. Most customers only buy a couple pounds at a time. There just isn't much market for selling halves or quarters. Most customers cant afford that, and don't have the freeze space. Also, the "natural beef" customers look at beef as more of delicacy with smaller portions. They aren't the "Lets eat a 3/4 lb burger after a hard days work" kind of crowd.

As far a organics and yield....Farming has progressed for a reason. Maybe too far but who knows. I grow rye for seed. I pull 45-50 bushel/acre. My neighbor grows organic rye seed and only gets 25-30 acre. That's a big difference in yield, and he doesn't get twice the price/bushel as me. His input costs are lower though...

To feed the masses you need cheap available food. Obesity isn't a result of cheap available food its a result of peoples lack of self control. He have drug addicts even though drugs are expensive...


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I think a big part of obesity is cheap (cheap quality, not necessarily cheap price) food. Industrial food companies design their product to leave you wanting more. Some of the synthetic and artificial ingredients are even addictive, so even when you are full, you don't quite feel satisfied until you get a little more, and a little more the next time.

However, you hit the nail on the head with self control. Suck it up and stop feeding your face!

I constantly hear people complain about organic vs industrial prices (even though thats comparing apples to oranges) when they are already spending money on $100/month phone plans, daily $5 cups of coffee, $400 car payments, and other luxury items.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

Question for any who went the grass fed beef route...did you change the breed of cattle you raised? I was wondering what breeds would finish well on just grass. I'm guessing the small frame English breeds.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

aawhite said:


> Question for any who went the grass fed beef route...did you change the breed of cattle you raised? I was wondering what breeds would finish well on just grass. I'm guessing the small frame English breeds.


I believe our few herefords finish on grass better than the other breeds we have. May be their lazy laid back attitude more than anything else.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Herefords on grass do real well.Dad had a Hereford cow herd for a number of years. When he sold out he had a few cows that he didn't breed for a few years. They crossed the scale at over 2000 lbs each

-Jerseys can do ok. They don't gain as fast, but with the smaller frame they fill out better than Holsteins. Of course the demand for a "fat" Holstein isn't that great...figure $20/lb less than Holsteins. I bought some jersey steers from an organic grazer. Those steers must have had the genetics for grazing. I turned them out in a pasture and they went right into the woods. They stayed in their for days eating brush and fresh tree leaves

-Holsteins- Not that great. I think some of the old genetics with the smaller frames would be ok. The BIG frame holesteins just don't do well. I have some big ones that weighted 1200 lbs, and still looked like a bag of bones. They would probably fatten at 1800+ lbs.

-Lineback- I have a couple of these, and really like them. They fill out real well, and appear to gain well on grass. They appear to be a little more high strung than some of the other dairy breeds.

I would say most of your "old" dairy breeds are going to do better on grass than the modern day Holsteins...


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

We have Herefords on grass as well. Really like them. I know Red Devon, Belties, and many other smaller framed beef breeds are popular for grass systems in northern climates.

The Stockman Grass Farmer is one of the best resources for grazing systems in all livestock categories. Definitely worth checking out.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Dairy breeds need alot of energy to fatten, corn and corn silage are best.

Protein growes them up energy grows them out


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

I honestly think organic farming is a joke....it cant be sustainable for long unless you wanna farm with 18th century crop yeilds.

The way I see it as long as your are not found with conventinal medications and chemical (sprays, herbicides etc) or ship products animal products or animals treated with antibiotics. You can still use them and gey away with it and be organic


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Same people into organic farming are like the people who won't get their kids vaccinated. Then they bring diseases into schools.
People can get sick and die just so a few can be different and controversial.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

I would definitely avoid the dairy breeds. We raised some of our Holstein bulls as steers, had to finish them on straight corn. Been looking at Belties, but not a lot of numbers raised in U.S. Hard to get good genetics or heifers for breeding stock?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

We've got quite a few belties down here in PA


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Don't forget about the old standby the Shorthorn. Most grassfed guys in my area run Belties, Highland, Shorthorn, Hereford, and Devon. One farmer down the road is trying to steer his genetics towards grassfed. He runs Angus. I haven't talked to him in a while but last I knew he had 2 cows out of 100 that were doing almost as good as his cornfed.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

I got interested in the whole grass fed hype a decade ago, and there are somethings that you had better realize. First you had better be in the right area. You had better be in an area where the people are willing to pay for it, aka close to a major city with a lot of yuppies and health nuts. The worst you can be in is with a lot of seniors that grew up on farms, they can be a nightmare. Take a trip to a Whole Foods store and stand and watch. The people in there don't fill up a cart like the do at Kroger or Piggley Wiggley, or wally world, it's premium priced stuff and the most I ever saw was about 10 to 15 items. Are there people doing this YES, but you had better be one heck of a salesman. The best thing that I got out of the Stockman Grass Farmer was when I took note of an ad for Pharo Cattle Co. Bought my first bull from them 6 years ago and haven't looked back. The switch to grass based genetics was the game changer for me. We quit farming in 1999 and didn't have that cheap milo to feed anymore, I found out quickly that I wasn't willing to buy grain. It's always been my want to go to true F-1 Black Baldies and that's what I'm working toward, so I try to grow the best grass that I can while watching my input cost. One thing about the Baldie, they never go out of style.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

There are many different breeds that will do well on grass. But just because the breed is the same doesn't mean they will thrive on grass. Grassfed genetics and lack thereof exist in many breeds.

Belties and highlands do well on just grass and poorer quality as well. But they grow slow.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I constantly hear people complain about organic vs industrial prices (even though thats comparing apples to oranges) when they are already spending money on $100/month phone plans, daily $5 cups of coffee, $400 car payments, and other luxury items.


$400 vehicle payment is not too bad....I know of some kids in my community that have $1000 truck payments on these new diesel trucks of all brands. Still live home with mom and dad and don't do too much other than make payments.....and probably some still have to sponge off mom and dad to make the payment.

Regards, Mike


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Your right moose, what I'm saying is to have something that will sell well at the sale barn if things don't work out. Some breeds you will take a bath on if your forced to turn that way. grass genetics you can select for in your own herd. Down here if they can survive on endophyte fescue you have a good start.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I am contemplating looking for the sale barn outlet myself with a new bull. My Highlands wouldnt be worth it to bring in. But if I bought a nice black bull and threw some polled calves...

If I can expand my land base I will consider it.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I think a big part of obesity is cheap (cheap quality, not necessarily cheap price) food. Industrial food companies design their product to leave you wanting more. Some of the synthetic and artificial ingredients are even addictive, so even when you are full, you don't quite feel satisfied until you get a little more, and a little more the next time.
> 
> However, you hit the nail on the head with self control. Suck it up and stop feeding your face!
> 
> I constantly hear people complain about organic vs industrial prices (even though thats comparing apples to oranges) when they are already spending money on $100/month phone plans, daily $5 cups of coffee, $400 car payments, and other luxury items.


One reason for obesity. Its cheaper to buy a pie than it is to buy the fresh friut to make the pie. Its cheaper and easier to buy a bag of potato chips than to buy a few potatos and cook them. A tiny salad cost as much at a fast food place as a large hambuger and fries. Pop is cheaper to drink than milk. Come to think of it some places charge more for bottled water than pop. Point being a lot of the foods that help make people fat are cheap.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

hog987 said:


> One reason for obesity. Its cheaper to buy a pie than it is to buy the fresh friut to make the pie. Its cheaper and easier to buy a bag of potato chips than to buy a few potatos and cook them. A tiny salad cost as much at a fast food place as a large hambuger and fries. Pop is cheaper to drink than milk. Come to think of it some places charge more for bottled water than pop. Point being a lot of the foods that help make people fat are cheap.


Yes I was saying a big part of obesity is cheap quality, while cheaply priced food doesn't necessarily mean its low quality. I worded the parenthesis kind of funny.

The stuff about buying potato chips vs buying potatoes and making potatoe chips just isnt true. Chips, candy, even processed cereal are some of the most expensive foods per lb out there. Obviosuly there is a convenience factor.

There are A LOT of people out there buying chips, candy bars, lattes and other very low quality, high cost/lb (especially when you take into account the nutritional value), and nutririonally terrible food on a DAILY basis yet walk by the grass fed beef and and scoff at the price, while they munch away on their candy bar thats just as expensive per lb (yes I know they weigh much different amounts).

I think people who aren't involved or around organic farming are out of touch with what is really going on when it comes to yield. Maybe there are some organic farmers on here that want to chime in? Organic farming isn't the hippie carrying a hoe wearing a hemp hat anymore. From the roadside you wouldn't be able to tell a good organic farm from any other farm.

Yes there are smaller operations who cater specifically to the yuppie crowd and focus on a gourmet product and have very high prices, but I buy a lot of organic and grass/pasture raised products, sometimes in the store, and sometimes directly from the farm. If you do your research and some shopping around, not to mention maybe place more of a priority on nutrition than cheap calories, I don't find the prices to be a burden, and I definitely do not fit in to the yuppie crowd.

We throw out the term "you get what you pay for" for a lot of the things we purchase, I think food and what we put into our bodies definitely applies to that saying. Its one of the most important things we do on a daily basis yet something that we take into consideration less and less.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Vol said:


> $400 vehicle payment is not too bad....I know of some kids in my community that have $1000 truck payments on these new diesel trucks of all brands. Still live home with mom and dad and don't do too much other than make payments.....and probably some still have to sponge off mom and dad to make the payment.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I refuse to have a vehicle payment so i'm a little out of touch with what new vehicles cost. $1000 blows my mind!


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I refuse to have a vehicle payment so i'm a little out of touch with what new vehicles cost. $1000 blows my mind!


Thats a $1000 for the basic truck. Than they add the lift kit and large tires and everything else they want and add several hundred more to their payment.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

hog987 said:


> Thats a $1000 for the basic truck. Than they add the lift kit and large tires and everything else they want and add several hundred more to their payment.


I suppose they drive it around the city as well


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I suppose they drive it around the city as well


Maybe on a long weekend in the summer they might take it off road. But they have to be careful

not to damage the custom paint job.


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

I recently heard a new position concerning "organic or all natural" products and practices and I would like to hear some opinions on it, and it may add to this discussion.

Basically this position is that the practices (breeding, selection, weed control, others?) that organic and all natural producers employ in an effort to remain competitive, has or will eventually lead to an end product that is not "natural" anymore. In beef for example, does selection and breeding for a breed/line of cattle that perform well in an organic, grass fed, or all natural production system, lead to a meat product or animal that has been so drastically changed that it is actually "unnatural"? When I see some of the extremely small breeds of cattle (like Dexter), that are supposed to do well in organic, natural systems, I think they look very unnatural.

Will organic and all natural products run the risk of changing so much to the point that they will not compare to the traditional product? Or can they be changed so much that they could be even considered unsafe by some?


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Obesity is a choice. If you start looking almost everything consumed is a carb. When I was a kid getting a Coke or Pepsi was a treat, now it's the beverage of choice. even the so called diet food is stacked with carbs, read the label. So with pop and chips and doughnuts and a sedentary lifestyle people are going to get fat. Even in our life when you can move a lever and pick-up a ton of hay--go figure! I tell my wife my Grandpa ate bacon 3 times a day and died at 88 (in 1974) with heart problems if I had done that I would already be dead. If you can grow your own food then you know you can be organic or grass-fed, that's what we do, a garden and our own beef and pork. It will amaze you at how many 20 and 30 somethings can't or won't cook that's how processed food got so big.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

JMT said:


> I recently heard a new position concerning "organic or all natural" products and practices and I would like to hear some opinions on it, and it may add to this discussion.
> 
> Basically this position is that the practices (breeding, selection, weed control, others?) that organic and all natural producers employ in an effort to remain competitive, has or will eventually lead to an end product that is not "natural" anymore. In beef for example, does selection and breeding for a breed/line of cattle that perform well in an organic, grass fed, or all natural production system, lead to a meat product or animal that has been so drastically changed that it is actually "unnatural"? When I see some of the extremely small breeds of cattle (like Dexter), that are supposed to do well in organic, natural systems, I think they look very unnatural.
> 
> Will organic and all natural products run the risk of changing so much to the point that they will not compare to the traditional product? Or can they be changed so much that they could be even considered unsafe by some?


Belgium blue bulls. Ask the average person if they look natural. They are natural breeding but most people think steriods.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I refuse to have a vehicle payment so i'm a little out of touch with what new vehicles cost. $1000 blows my mind!


Here ya go. New F-350 diesel auto crew cab. 
Actually it's over $1,000/ month on a 60 month loan.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Here ya go. New F-350 diesel auto crew cab.
> Actually it's over $1,000/ month on a 60 month loan.


Yikes, I'll stick with my '99 buick to haul myself around


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

JMT said:


> I recently heard a new position concerning "organic or all natural" products and practices and I would like to hear some opinions on it, and it may add to this discussion.
> 
> Basically this position is that the practices (breeding, selection, weed control, others?) that organic and all natural producers employ in an effort to remain competitive, has or will eventually lead to an end product that is not "natural" anymore. In beef for example, does selection and breeding for a breed/line of cattle that perform well in an organic, grass fed, or all natural production system, lead to a meat product or animal that has been so drastically changed that it is actually "unnatural"? When I see some of the extremely small breeds of cattle (like Dexter), that are supposed to do well in organic, natural systems, I think they look very unnatural.
> 
> Will organic and all natural products run the risk of changing so much to the point that they will not compare to the traditional product? Or can they be changed so much that they could be even considered unsafe by some?


If they are grazing grass like God designed them to I would imagine it would be tough to get a product that would be "unnatural" - I'm no breeding or genetic expert though, there are some odd breeds out there.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

My thoughts on grass fed beef are this; I would rather eat grass fed beef as I know it would be much better for me and my extended family and friends....BUT, I have never ate a grass fed beef steak that was TENDER. I have been told umpteen times that I was getting them at the wrong place, but I have tried many places and a fine restaurant or two....but I cannot find nare a one. I would think it would be very possible because Elk are grass fed and their steaks are tender. I really don't understand why I cannot find a tender grass fed beef steak.

Regards, Mike


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Vol said:


> My thoughts on grass fed beef are this; I would rather eat grass fed beef as I know it would be much better for me and my extended family and friends....BUT, I have never ate a grass fed beef steak that was TENDER. I have been told umpteen times that I was getting them at the wrong place, but I have tried many places and a fine restaurant or two....but I cannot find nare a one. I would think it would be very possible because Elk are grass fed and their steaks are tender. I really don't understand why I cannot find a tender grass fed beef steak.
> 
> Regards, Mike


They are eating the wrong grass, Mike. Corn is a grass and makes them nice and tender.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

My original comment concerning obesity and organics went the wrong way here. I simply meant that if all production is switched to organic, there is no possible way to feed 8 billion people on this earth. Yes, there are differences between organic and conventional farms and they are visible from the road. Usually the organics in this area have the crappy crops and the nice weeds. The farms themselves are dumps because the operators could not make it as conventional and some schmuck comes thru with a get rich quick scenario of going organic and now what production they had has been slashed by 50%.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Vol said:


> My thoughts on grass fed beef are this; I would rather eat grass fed beef as I know it would be much better for me and my extended family and friends....BUT, I have never ate a grass fed beef steak that was TENDER. I have been told umpteen times that I was getting them at the wrong place, but I have tried many places and a fine restaurant or two....but I cannot find nare a one. I would think it would be very possible because Elk are grass fed and their steaks are tender. I really don't understand why I cannot find a tender grass fed beef steak.
> 
> Regards, Mike


The problem with grass feed is most people dont give them enough time to finish. It take close to three years or more to have them finished on grass. I have only had one grass feed beef that was good. It happened to be one I raised myself and the one guy didnt pick up his half so I got stuck with it. Some of the tenderness was the breed and the rest was he had enough time to finish.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

You have to finish them on a high quality annual grass their second year. From everything I've read a perianal won't do it short of alfalfa, and you can never let them loose weight to get the tenderness. BTW a calf will not marble until it surpasses it mothers weight. just some facts from the books on my bookshelf on grass-fed beef. The best grass to finish them on------------ Crabgrass.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

P.S. Haybaler101 is also right. Corn is also the grass of choice, but you have to do it before the ear fill or it's not considered grass-fed. The corn plant will pack the weight on them, and the fat. Just don't think too many corn farmers are going to let steers mow the fields.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Hokelund Farm said:


> I suppose they drive it around the city as well


Off roading in the wal mart parking lot...


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

hog987 said:


> Thats a $1000 for the basic truck. Than they add the lift kit and large tires and everything else they want and add several hundred more to their payment.


Well yeah they have to make up for their short comings somehow. Duh


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## simangus (May 13, 2012)

Wow, these are some very intriguing responses. I appreciate all the different insights to my ?s. I agree that production will suffer, and did not know that to finish à steer would take that long on grass alone. My feelings have always been that an animal that is healthy, (no parasites etc.) Would be healthier for one to consume. I just thought maybe there was greater profit to be had. Even with the added labor and marketing snaffu.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, we just ate some flank steak and some beef from my neighbors grass fed cattle. Meat was very good.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

I think you have to be prepared to AGGRESSIVELY market your own beef to an end user. There was a review on a website of the top 50 steak houses in the U.S. (could not be a national chain). A high percentage of them mentioned a direct purchase relationship with ranches growing specific beef. A lot referred to all natural (no antibiotics or hormones) and grass fed. Some of the places did their own butchering on site.

A ranch delivering grass fed beef direct to an end-user that recognizes the value and will pay for it should be your end goal. But that is a lot of work, research, and face-time with potential customers. If you aren't prepared for it, it don't like that type of interaction with customers, this is probably not the approach for you.


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## BrookshireFarm (Nov 15, 2014)

Hi,

Just found this forum, and while searching around I found this post. I raise grass fed and grass finished beef in S Louisiana. It generally takes me 18-24 months to finish a 1000-1100 lb steer on grass. I practice management intensive grazing, and move the animals in every day or two to a new paddock depending on the time of year and available forage.We direct market all our beef to consumers with sales to a couple of small restaurants in the area.The steers that dont meet my 2+lb/day gain std during the finishing period, 6-8 weeks, get brought to the slaughterhouse and sold as cuts from the farm and at a local farmers market. I run around 100 head of a mixed commercial herd with a strong charolais influence and currently use a pred bred hereford bull. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have, altough we've only been doing this for 10 years so I definitely dont know everything.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

One thing that should be mentioned is the amount of time the animal is hanged. That can make a huge difference in how tender the beef is. If they go from 2 weeks to 4 weeks that makes a huge difference. But the extra time hanging cost money.


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## BrookshireFarm (Nov 15, 2014)

hog987 said:


> One thing that should be mentioned is the amount of time the animal is hanged. That can make a huge difference in how tender the beef is. If they go from 2 weeks to 4 weeks that makes a huge difference. But the extra time hanging cost money.


We usually hang our meat for 14 days. Around here they dont charge extra the longer you hang, must be a regional thing.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

One thing I noticed with our dairy heifers is once they get to 5-600 pounds is they grow and hold condition much better on just pasture with no supplements


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