# Lease/Ethics Question



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

My father always said if you had to ask, the answer is "No". Going to ask anyway.

I was given a 57 acre pasture/hayfield free lease very close to me. That lead to the brother offering me his hay field as well, which I now manage.

Both have recently contacted me asking if I wanted their other land. The other places are fenced and can be used for cows or hay, my choice.

An acquaintance has cows on both of those places right now. Neither owner is happy. Both places are growing up in weeds and is becoming an eyesore. One day with a batwing would do wonders.

I know the other guy and we have a mutual respect. Not friends, but friendly and always speak when we cross paths. I have always known him to be a good, honest guy.

My concern is that if they ask him to leave that it will look like I undermined him. I would like to think I am in fairly good standing in the community and am concerned the rumor mill will get going.

I told the owners what my concerns were. Their reply was "Who cares what people say"?


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Can't you ask the land owners to preface their conversation with that you are not involved in this decision? 
I'm sure the current renters will understand.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Like they said in "o brother where art tho. " you're in a tight spot....I believe I would tell the other feller after the deal was done that I in no way tried to undermine him, the place was offered to me and I took that option. Hopefully he'll understand....wonder was he paying? Might be more to the story than you've been told.....never know


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'd go for it, up here it's cut throat to get more land and it may be awhile before you get offered anymore. I'd definitely ask the owners to make it clear that you had no part in their decision to offer the ground to someone else, it just so happens to be you.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Agree. 
I think its really commendable that you're considerate of their situation.
I can see you are concerned that they will suffer an income loss when they lose the land and you take it over. 
You're a Christian.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Can't you ask the land owners to preface their conversation with that you are not involved in this decision?
> I'm sure the current renters will understand.


They do not want much conversation with him. Feel no need to explain anything. To the owners it is strictly a business decision.


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

Assuming you do want it, tell the landowners you'll take it. Step back and let the landowners and your acquaintance work out the terms for the removal of stock and any equipment. I would then make it a point to touch base with your acquaintance and tell him exactly what happened. He may not like it but he'll know the truth. The rest is up to him.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> Like they said in "o brother where art tho. " you're in a tight spot....I believe I would tell the other feller after the deal was done that I in no way tried to undermine him, the place was offered to me and I took that option. Hopefully he'll understand....wonder was he paying? Might be more to the story than you've been told.....never know


It is a free lease with the condition he keep it looking nice.

They are relatively young owners but come from old hard working blood. They inherited and acquired a good bit of land over the years. They care more about the land being done right than money.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I can think of a lot worse problems to have. Your landlords are aking for your help after they kick out their problem tenant.


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> I can think of a lot worse problems to have. Your landlords are aking for your help after they kick out their problem tenant.


Deep down, them owners prolly want to see more of that Krone tedder.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Do you think those in the community have noticed how your acquaintance isn't taking very good care of that property. Or do they even know the acquaintance is "leasing" it. I'm not sure what you call it when it is offered for free. If people have noticed this acquaintance isn't taking very good care of the land they might figure out themselves the reason you are now working the land and not him? If the owners have to tell him to leave they probably are going to need to give him a reason.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Watch those free lease's next they change the terms to fit there plans like half a beef or tare up a field with 4 wheeler. Just remember look out for number one, free lease still put something in writing.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Yes Teslan, I believe it is becoming noticeable, even mentioned some.

That could be the saving grace on this.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

farmerbrown said:


> Watch those free lease's next they change the terms to fit there plans like half a beef or tare up a field with 4 wheeler. Just remember look out for number one, free lease still put something in writing.


I have a written long term contract on the 57 acres. They were having to pay to keep it cut. It looks better now than it has in years. They know and appreciate the inputs to keep nature from reclaiming the land.

All my free leases have a written long term contract. That allows me the freedom to lime, fertilize and spray.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

If it were me I would take them up on the offer. Since the current tenant isn't taking proper care of the place the landowners simply should tell them that aren't happy with the way that they are taking care of the place and give them a reasonable time to get off. If you feel that there could be a confrontation between you and the current tenant it might be best that the landowners make it clear that they came to you because they liked the way you were caring for their other piece of property and that you didn't come to them trying to rent it. If the current tenant was doing a good job and all of a sudden you took over it might not look as good but the way the situation is now if anybody asks you can simply say the landowners were not happy and offered it to me because they knew I would do a good job.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I just can't comprehend land being free.So different here.pretty much every sq ft of farmable ground here is pd for some way or another.It can be rented out for pasture for 50-75 an acre.Put in CRP,RIM,etc.Pheasents forever,ducks unlimited,DNR,Fish & Game have bought up a lot of the rougher ground that was once was grazed or baled.There are some road ditches baled for free but some of them even pay rent.waterways and lowlands are mostly baled but not for free.More like $50-100 per acre.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

That is amazing how it differed from region to region. I look at landowners as people who have land that needs to be maintained. They assume that maintenance expense when they buy these big pieces of property.That expense should be their responsibility. 
Someone like myself is doing them a favor, because without a hay farmer, they'd be paying for field mowing. I end up not only saving them money, but giving them the opportunity to get a significant tax break on their property taxes. I make some money and they save some money.
I can't possibly see how it could be more fair.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2014)

If u dont take the lease the next guy will. So your neighbor will loose it either way. Dont let that happen. Its not like your beating the landowners door down trying to take it from him. The landowner asked you and if you say no they will ask someone else and they will say yes


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> That is amazing how it differed from region to region. I look at landowners as people who have land that needs to be maintained. They assume that maintenance expense when they buy these big pieces of property.That expense should be their responsibility.
> Someone like myself is doing them a favor, because without a hay farmer, they'd be paying for field mowing. I end up not only saving them money, but giving them the opportunity to get a significant tax break on their property taxes. I make some money and they save some money.
> I can't possibly see how it could be more fair.


I'm with Cy. It's amazing to me also that one can "rent" land for free in some areas. Here it just doesn't happen. The land that needs to be maintained won't grow anything valuable anyway and it is usually to small to support any kind of livestock and doesn't have any irrigation water. So no one really wants the potential free "rental" land.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

That's an easy discussion here. 
Most landowners around here that bought their properties are rich executives, not farmers.
Wealthy people like to save money, especially on TAXES and property maintenance. 
If I can help them get their land reclassified as farmland, they can receive up to a 90% break on land taxes. 
Around here, that amounts to perhaps $1,000/ MONTH in savings. 
Add to that, they don't have to pay to have fields mowed.

I had a customer who had a $58,000/yr tax bill. I got it reduced to $38,000. That's $1,700/month! 
He also paid me $6,000/yr to cut it, that's $500/month.

So I saved him $2,200/month. That's a lot of money. 
I only make about 100 round bales per year off hiss property, worth maybe $5,000.

In my humble opinion, he does very well having someone like me to help him.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the input.

I was given a 50 acre free lease late last winter. The Extension Agent came out to help me get the land back in good hay production. He told the owners what was involved. If they had to pay for the time, equipment and expertise to have it done it would be cost prohibitive. There is not much money in making hay around here.

He advised me in their presence that if I did not have a long time free lease that he would not recommend I accept management. He said I should get 3 years free just to lime.

The previous guy never put anything back and eventually only baled reclamation hay. He told the land owner they needed to lime or he would let the field go. That is when they called me.

I put out 100 tons of Basic Slag and sprayed. I am drilling grass this spring. The owners are just happy to see their place taken care of. That is what lead to the 57 acre place just down the road and the offer to free lease their other land mentioned in my opening post.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> If I can help them get their land reclassified as farmland, they can receive up to a 90% break on land taxes.


Looks like a loop hole that needs to be pluged.It's a McMansion not a farm.If he has a multi million dollar home he should pay taxes on it.

HERE you get homestead on the first million of farm ground and either has to be farmed by yourself,your child or grandchild.There are some other requirements also I do think you have to file a schedule F.Anything valued over 1M toy are taxed fully.In Mn

If I had a 200K acreage and had to pay full tax on it and multi millionaire got a tax break for giving away his hay I would be a bit ticked.

Don't blame you one bit for takeing full advantage of it.If I was there I'd prly be doing the same.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> Looks like a loop hole that needs to be pluged.It's a McMansion not a farm.If he has a multi million dollar home he should pay taxes on it.HERE you get homestead on the first million of farm ground and either has to be farmed by yourself,your child or grandchild.There are some other requirements also I do think you have to file a schedule F.Anything valued over 1M toy are taxed fully.In MnIf I had a 200K acreage and had to pay full tax on it and multi millionaire got a tax break for giving away his hay I would be a bit ticked.Don't blame you one bit for takeing full advantage of it.If I was there I'd prly be doing the same.


You don't get a tax break on the McMansion, you get a tax break on the land that can be tilled/farmed. The McMansion gets the nuts taxed off of it......believe me.
We get taxed 2 ways: 
1: land
2: improvements


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> That's an easy discussion here.
> Most landowners around here that bought their properties are rich executives, not farmers.
> Wealthy people like to save money, especially on TAXES and property maintenance.
> If I can help them get their land reclassified as farmland, they can receive up to a 90% break on land taxes.
> ...


How that's crazy high taxes for even rich people. Here if a person that wasn't a farmer bought 160 acres ag zoned it would still be zoned ag. Even if they built a 6000 sqft house on it, with a pool, pool house, stables, fancy car garage. Still ag.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

One guy I work for has a 20,000 sq ft house. Has a parking garage underneath with Maserati sports cars in it. I'd guess its worth 5 million. 
Another person I work for is a world renowned artist on a 30 acre farm with stone barns. Another is a big shot from Katonah, NY. Looked up his home value. It was 2.75 million. His land down here is probably worth another million. 
Then there's the 58 acre horse farm that was repossessed by a bank. Resold for 1.75 million.

That's all I seem to work for- wealthy, non farm landowners. 
Wish I was that wealthy!!!


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> That is amazing how it differed from region to region. I look at landowners as people who have land that needs to be maintained. They assume that maintenance expense when they buy these big pieces of property.That expense should be their responsibility.
> Someone like myself is doing them a favor, because without a hay farmer, they'd be paying for field mowing. I end up not only saving them money, but giving them the opportunity to get a significant tax break on their property taxes. I make some money and they save some money.
> I can't possibly see how it could be more fair.


JD I don't doubt that for one moment but the area you live in is not unique to the rest of the state


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Lancaster county has the "clean and green program". Its a little stupid the way its setup. If you have over 10 acres you can apply and the land will be taxed at a lesser rate. However, if you subdivide the land you have to pay some portion of the back tax savings. Heres the dumb part.

Guy from work bought 10 acres of woodland, clears it and builds a new house. He gets tax break.

Dad has an 8 acre farmette he bought that joins the main farm. I farm it with our farm and store equipment in the barns. Due to the property being under 10 acres it cant be enrolled in the tax break program even through the entire property is actively farmed....


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

In this area most people who bought up farms and land don't have intrest in farming and just want to see it farmed and not growing golden rods and multiflora rose then eventually thorn tree then hardwoods. Most ground is wet and marginal at best or has been run down so any kind of rent would be cost prohibitive to most anyone unless they were desperate. We offer paying the value of taxes on the land and all our landlords refuse any type of money. Plus if they need anything we usually help them out. Being good neighbors goes a long way

Make things right with the current tenant you never know if you may need his help down the road someday


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bgriffin856 said:


> In this area most people who bought up farms and land don't have intrest in farming and just want to see it farmed and not growing golden rods and multiflora rose then eventually thorn tree then hardwoods. Most ground is wet and marginal at best or has been run down so any kind of rent would be cost prohibitive to most anyone unless they were desperate. We offer paying the value of taxes on the land and all our landlords refuse any type of money. Plus if they need anything we usually help them out. Being good neighbors goes a long way
> Make things right with the current tenant you never know if you may need his help down the road someday


You know that's a good point: another reason I won't pay rent is because all but one parcel I acquired was a awful mess of MF rose, brooms edge and dogbane. I pumped thousands in money and 100's of free hours into them. 
If they were gardens of orchard grass making 8 4x5's/ acre, that would be another story.....


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> You know that's a good point: another reason I won't pay rent is because all but one parcel I acquired was a awful mess of MF rose, brooms edge and dogbane. I pumped thousands in money and 100's of free hours into them.
> If they were gardens of orchard grass making 8 4x5's/ acre, that would be another story.....


True here as well. It seems for us the land missed a generation of TLC. The children or new owners were not motivated to keep once productive land in good shape. They have other interest or simple ignorance on what is involved.

Even the cost of equipment shocks them and creates a new found respect on how committed we are.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Tim/South said:


> True here as well. It seems for us the land missed a generation of TLC. The children or new owners were not motivated to keep once productive land in good shape. They have other interest or simple ignorance on what is involved.
> Even the cost of equipment shocks them and creates a new found respect on how committed we are.


Alot of the wet and marginal ground that someone farmed on the side and for their own use was left abandoned back in the 80's or when the next generation took over and their reason is "There's no money in farming" same words my teachers told me in high school... You can drive along any backroad and any old house has or had a small barn out back with some fields next to it.

Actually was out hunting on some property that borders ours and the next road over, and you could see dead furrows running right through the middle of the woods and notice some barbed wire around the perimeter. Had been abandoned awhile as there were some good sized maples growing in it. Amazing how much farmland and pasture there used to be


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Bgriffin856 said:


> Alot of the wet and marginal ground that someone farmed on the side and for their own use was left abandoned back in the 80's or when the next generation took over and their reason is "There's no money in farming" same words my teachers told me in high school... You can drive along any backroad and any old house has or had a small barn out back with some fields next to it.
> 
> Actually was out hunting on some property that borders ours and the next road over, and you could see dead furrows running right through the middle of the woods and notice some barbed wire around the perimeter. Had been abandoned awhile as there were some good sized maples growing in it. Amazing how much farmland and pasture there used to be


It amazes me they let it go back to trees.Here in the bust cycle of the 80's land still rented for $60 per acre.Some of the poorer ground was put in CRP and received a payment of around $60 an acre also,but after the contract was up it was either farmed again or re uped into CRP.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Bgriffin856 said:


> Alot of the wet and marginal ground that someone farmed on the side and for their own use was left abandoned back in the 80's or when the next generation took over and their reason is "There's no money in farming" same words my teachers told me in high school... You can drive along any backroad and any old house has or had a small barn out back with some fields next to it.
> Actually was out hunting on some property that borders ours and the next road over, and you could see dead furrows running right through the middle of the woods and notice some barbed wire around the perimeter. Had been abandoned awhile as there were some good sized maples growing in it. Amazing how much farmland and pasture there used to be


I probably have 25 acres right in my wheelhouse that was farmed up until about 7-8 years ago. It has been destroyed by over farming with no fertilizing. Now its just multi flora rose and blackberry stickers in the fields with Russian olive creeping in from the edges.
I want soooo badly to spray that shit until its fried a nice brown color, take a disc to it and plant Timothy.
I just can't muster up the courage to knock on the door of the owner......
I know, it sounds crazy, I'm just not the kind of person that does that sort of thing. Besides, I think the owner died and the kids are just holding the estate until they figure out what to sell it for.
It's just painful to see a once productive hay field go to waste


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

Here the off farm next generation just tills everything up and puts in corn and beans. Seen a lot of long time pastures put into crop. Most of them with too much slope to be tilled. Now there are ruts, washes, and a lot of erosion. New generation does not seem to care or does not know any better.

Worse than that though, is there is always a farmer ready to rent the ground.
And, those that do, don't care enough to try to control the erosion.

On one farm close by the owner had all his ground in long term pasture. Then to be fair to his kids he went out and purchased about 500 more acres so everyone could have an equal inheritance. He spent 3 years converting most of this new ground into pasture and hay. Then two years later he passed and the kids had all of it plowed up within months of the funeral. Sickens me every time I drive past it and see all the ruts washing out.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

JMT said:


> Here the off farm next generation just tills everything up and puts in corn and beans. Seen a lot of long time pastures put into crop. Most of them with too much slope to be tilled. Now there are ruts, washes, and a lot of erosion. New generation does not seem to care or does not know any better.
> Worse than that though, is there is always a farmer ready to rent the ground.
> And, those that do, don't care enough to try to control the erosion.
> On one farm close by the owner had all his ground in long term pasture. Then to be fair to his kids he went out and purchased about 500 more acres so everyone could have an equal inheritance. He spent 3 years converting most of this new ground into pasture and hay. Then two years later he passed and the kids had all of it plowed up within months of the funeral. Sickens me every time I drive past it and see all the ruts washing out.


You'll never fully appreciate anything you don't pay for with money you earned through your own hard work. 
I know a lot of "kids" who inherited their parents farmland and also a significant amount of farming equipment. They are very entitled and spoiled. The parents were hard working, no nonsense, salt of the earth people. The kids like to tell me what I should/ shouldn't buy and I feel like telling them "you didn't have to pay for your tractor, but I did", but I bite my tongue. 
When they find out I didn't grow up as a farmers kid, they can't believe it.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> It amazes me they let it go back to trees.Here in the bust cycle of the 80's land still rented for $60 per acre.Some of the poorer ground was put in CRP and received a payment of around $60 an acre also,but after the contract was up it was either farmed again or re uped into CRP.


The way I see it there is a reason it was let go. Usually too wet and poor to keep profitable. There is some of our property that was let go to trees. Maps from '54 show it as pasture. Alot of it is steep/erodable Or very swampy. CRP isn't popular here

People are lazy here too or some don't want anyone else farming it. Quite a few sold their cows or quit farming but kept equipment, usually kept outside and let it rust away because they "might need it someday"


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Where I grew up was dairy country long before my time. Amazing seeing pics from the 30s 40s compared to 80s 90s. And today. You wouldn't guess it by looking at my Moms place it was a big farm if not for old barn, old fencelines, and rock fences in the trees.

Where I live now when they quit milking they just grew crops.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I just can't muster up the courage to knock on the door of the owner......
> I know, it sounds crazy, I'm just not the kind of person that does that sort of thing. Besides, I think the owner died and the kids are just holding the estate until they figure out what to sell it for.
> It's just painful to see a once productive hay field go to waste


Around here you knock on doors to pick up ground. Every once in a while I will get a phone call from someone who heard I was needing ground but the most of it comes from knocking on strangers doors, and I've been told no many more times than yes.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Lewis Ranch said:


> Around here you knock on doors to pick up ground. Every once in a while I will get a phone call from someone who heard I was needing ground but the most of it comes from knocking on strangers doors, and I've been told no many more times than yes.


I'm weighing out the plus/minuses of knocking on the door of a property owner who's fields are MF rose and blackberry stickers. Don't know if I have the financial means to turn it back to hay even if they gave it to me to farm!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I'm weighing out the plus/minuses of knocking on the door of a property owner who's fields are MF rose and blackberry stickers. Don't know if I have the financial means to turn it back to hay even if they gave it to me to farm!


It is wise to weight the amount of money and time it will take to get a field back into production.

With a long term free lease you have the freedom to treat the ground as your own.

I will start the second year on a 50 acre free lease. The owner thought all I would have to do is fertilize one year and the magic would happen. I told him it would be at least 3 years before I had a chance to break even, 5 years before I could begin to recoup what I will have invested. They now have a better understanding of what is involved. I am very fortunate to have some classy land owners.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I'm weighing out the plus/minuses of knocking on the door of a property owner who's fields are MF rose and blackberry stickers. Don't know if I have the financial means to turn it back to hay even if they gave it to me to farm!


Around here I would say it takes a good 3 years to get it back in great shape and a little longer to make money, but with the prices you get for hay up there I imagine you could start making money back on the second year.


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## Supa Dexta (May 28, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> I'm weighing out the plus/minuses of knocking on the door of a property owner who's fields are MF rose and blackberry stickers. Don't know if I have the financial means to turn it back to hay even if they gave it to me to farm!


I will say in my own experience, get as much as you can now, even if you just offer to bush cut it until you can farm it right.. There was so much more land around here before my time. I was able to catch and reclaim some as I grew, but a lot was lost back to woods. And now i'm paying to clear it off again from full trees rather than weeds and small bushes..


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> That's all I seem to work for- wealthy, non farm landowners.
> Wish I was that wealthy!!!
> 
> JD, It seems to me you are that wealthy or more wealthy, you just might not have as much stuff or cash.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

barnrope said:


> JD3430 said:
> 
> 
> > That's all I seem to work for- wealthy, non farm landowners.
> ...


Thanks Barnrope,
I am in a sense "wealthy" only in that I am surrounded by generous people who give me love & support (my family) and people who give me opportunity (wealthy people). Now I have the wealth of all of you and your support, too. 
I'm just lucky my parents were able to locate us here in this area and I decided to stay here....


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