# RTW, the good the bad and the ugly?



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

So Indiana just passed RTW (right to work) and I'm wondering what some of our forum members think about it. Some of my die hard union friends are convinced it will be the beginning of the new dark ages. 80 hour weeks, no lunches, everyone will be missing body parts from unsafe machinery and everyone will be paid minimum wage. I call em union drones but that's another story.

I was an Operating Engineer for awhile out of high school and decided then unions were BS, especially about the time I received the little card in the mail suggesting who I should vote for in the next election as the suggested candidates were what was best for the union. I pointed out then and will now, rarely what's best for the unions is good for the state or the rest of the country. I also pointed out Americans have been dying for a LONG time earning then protecting our right to vote for anybody that we want.

I'm of the opinion that if RTW does lower the wages in Indiana, if it's too much then people will "vote with their feet" by leaving the state for other areas of the country that have higher wages. If enough people leave and a shortage of skilled labor is the result, then company's will be forced to pay more to attract workers back to the state and things will eventually even out on their own.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

My thinking about unions is much in line with yours. IMO, Unions have outserved their usefulness in most parts of the country. There was a time when they served a valid purpose, but I think most of them are unnecessary today. I would hope that in todays electronic age of communications that most everyone is quite capable of selecting their own political candidates and the assumption by many unions that they "know best" should clue one as to the ulterior motives of many unions. IMO, unions are for lazy people. This is just my opinion so any "out-raged" pro-union folks, just chill.

Regards, Mike

P.S. The proliferation of lawyers in this country will alleviate any union concerns as far as "mis-treatment" of non-union folk.


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## steve IN (Jan 13, 2010)

My family has always been strong union supporters. My own father who is retired now has called them a nescessary evil. Yes they do protect the lazy. I was a teamster for five years and decided to make my own way of life. I am on the fence with RTW. I do not believe unions have outlived thier purpose, but I thimk they should rethink that purpose. We as a nation owe alot to what they have worked to get for all workers. The thing that everyone is overlooking is if all the bad begins to happen they can change the law through a shift in the house,senate and governoor. I personally have a peoblem with the trads,(Laborers,Operators, Carpenters and Iron Workers). It seems lately that alot them that I know thier only goal is get unemployment for the winter. Thats a tirade for another thread. With RTW only time will tell.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

The thing that killed the Operators for me was when I started I could run as many pieces of equipment as needed on a jobsite, I could seat hop as they called it. Might have for example five pieces of equipment on a site and none of it is needed more than a few hours at a time thru the whole day, rules were changed so you need one operator per piece of equipment even if it only runs a few hour a day, no seat hopping anymore. In my opinion they did this to get more people working so they could collect more "working" dues. It's also BS because in our area at least for the operators BIG projects are usually state or federally funded which having five guys standing around with their thumbs up their a** most of the day just increases the cost of the project, which also means more of my tax dollars are wasted.

Far as a jobsite being more dangerous without unions, ever hear of OSHA?


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## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

Unions were started to protect health and welfare of human beings, but like everything else, good things are ruined by corruption. Unions exist because employers in the past simply do not care about the health and safety of the workers, and in lots of cases they still don't care. I personally do not want to owe my soul to the company store.
However, the right to work is an individual freedom. I have never fully understood the demonstrations of patriotism by unions. On the one hand supporting freedom and on the other hand trying to block someone else from working in a free market society.
I've never belonged to a union but have done work for union shops over the years. If I had crossed a picket line to do the work I would have been harassed, spit on and even my life and my family's life would have been threatened. Since I was a non union worker with the skill to help them out of a bind it was ok. Sort of hypocritical don't you think?
The hatred and discontent was too easy to notice. The statement "I wish that old man would die so I can get his job" were heard often. Strife and discontent among the employees was usually as intense as with the employer.
On the legislative side, states are reviewing right to work laws and in lots of cases are leaning in favor of employers. Some states can dismiss employees at any time for any reason. Volumes could be written on this subject alone.
The basic argument is on "my fare share" slice of the pie. Employers think you make too much and employees think they don't make enough. That's the way it is and always will be.
Some want just enough, others want it all. This problem is on both sides of the divide.
We will always argue over the size of the slice.
Perplexing isn't it?


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

Necessary evil . Yes I think we still need them . I work for one of the big 3 parts plants for 20 some years before we closed . Yes they kept some from getting fired that should have been. Then again I saw the company keep some trades people when they should have been let go in their 30 days before they got into the union. More than likely because of being a minority and looked good to the feds .

I know several folks now that could use a union so they have a say , and know they are not going to be fired for speaking their mind. Not just lower paying jobs but any where from 14 an hour to 32 dollars an hour . Actually the higher paying person can not even speak ill of their employer without fear of losing their job.

OSHA does some stuff . But here's just one instance of them hand in hand with corporations . I was an electrician , not to long ago they came out with a new rule that told what kind of tools you had to use to work on different voltages and so forth. Sounds good right . Until you looked who come up with these new rules on what safety equipment was required for what voltage . Guess what, it was the companies that made the stuff that made the new safety regulations . Wow I wonder who stood to profit from that ?

So Yes I think we still need unions. I'm not saying they are the answer to everything But they are better than nothing at all . 
Just one question ,if RTW is good deal why is it that no other state has passed in in 10 years ?


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

cwright said:


> Unions were started to protect health and welfare of human beings, but like everything else, good things are ruined by corruption. Unions exist because employers in the past simply do not care about the health and safety of the workers, and in lots of cases they still don't care.


Well said.....

I had a carpenters union card and worked in a cabinet shop while I was in college. Other than the apprentice programs I never saw what they brought to the table. Now days the ones I've dealt with are struggling to even get apprentices, much less graduate any.

Texas has always been a right-to-work State. Places like the Beaumont area were almost run into the ground by the unions. I ran a few projects over there in my youth and finally refused to do any more. After a while, none of the companies wanted to build or expand there and it finally got a little better. I still hate to go over there though.

Having worked all over the country and the world I've probably seen the best they can offer and the worst. As a general statement, in most cases, the workers themselves are decent people with a small percentage of useless individuals. The leadership, in most cases are corupt, with a small percentage of leaders who truly care about the welfare of their members. The distribution curves are skewed in opposite directions.....kinda sad!

Fortunately, or unfortunately, globalization is forcing a change. Large numbers of non-skilled or low skilled workers are no longer needed in manufacturing. They have been replaced by automation. The unions that fight to protect them will loose because the jobs will just move someplace else. The jobs that remain increasing require higher skill sets to manage and maintain all the automation. Unions could bring something to the table with their apprentice training as they could easily beat the for-profit trade schools with the discipline they instill. They will have to change their business models and I suspect that it will be too much of a paradigm shift for most of them to handle......I don't know.

Interestingly enough, I saw some research that basically said there are almost as many people working in manufacturing today as there were 60 years ago....the overall population increased and their percentage went down. There was a bubble of employment in that sector that has been lost, but a lot of the loss was because of productivity gains through automation and other innovations. Overall, the US manufacturing sector is pretty competetive. We just can't compete in labor-intensive manufacturing. That doesn't help the low-skill workers though, and a lot of the low-tech manufacturing was clustered geographically. That hurt some areas big time and gave the politicians and media something to cry about, but the unions can't stop progress no matter how hard they try.

The same thing is happening in Agriculture. We grow more today with less people because we have replaced them with equipment. Damn stuff is a lot more complicated too. Do we need unions?

The reality is that we're actually not doing that bad. Traditionally our unemployment is around 5%, at worst it doubled for a short period. However, we maintained a higher employment rate than most of the rest of the world. That doesn't help the folks that are unemployed, but that's a matter of perspective. When your neighbor looses his job it's a tragedy, when you loose yours, its a catastrophe.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Like all too many things, unions, politicians, churches, to name a few, often started with a good idea, a good need and morphed into money grubbing, buying the vote, power grabs. I think it's part of human nature.

Or, putting it another way: It's about money, power and sex. Money gets you power; money and power get you sex.

JMHO.

Ralph


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## steve IN (Jan 13, 2010)

From what I have seen the operators werent trying to put MORE operators in the seats, They were trying to put thier kids in those seats. The operators union is probably the worst when it comes to neoptism. I know several of them and they all have two things in common 1 someone else got them thier job and 2 they have a piss poor arrogant attitude. I , as well as many farmers, know running a piece of equipment is basically repetition. The big difference with farmers and operators is farmers need to get the job done operators dont care if it ever gets done. Two other things I would like to see the state look into is the prevailing wage law and the RTNW (Right To Not Work) mentality that is taking over in society. By this I mean the growing number of people living on unemployment and disability. Some people truly are disabled but from what I have seen hanging out at my familys tavern way too many of them are just plain old lazy. Meanwhile jobs are going unfilled with the attitude "I make more by staying on unemployment than taking a 10 dollar an hour job." Pretty sad in my opinion. I for one am tired of working so they dont have to. I am running out of money to support all of these white trash!


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## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

steve IN said:


> Some people truly are disabled but from what I have seen hanging out at my familys tavern way too many of them are just plain old lazy. !


What's even more amazing is the amount of "disabled" hanging out in taverns that can also pick up a 250 pound tongue weight bass boat trailer and wag it to the lake. I guess having a bad back disqualifies work but has nothing to do with pleasure.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

cwright said:


> What's even more amazing is the amount of "disabled" hanging .


I agree with both of you on this matter , though getting disability has nothing to do with being in a union as far as I know of . That is your U.S. government at work trying to take care of everyone. Just like trying to make every where smoke free. No one is capable of making a decision for their self whether to go in to a smoking establishment or not . Right along with trying to safety proof the world .

Just like this.

'Prohibition of those under 16 years old from operating almost all power-driven equipment. A limited exemption would permit some student learners to operate certain farm implements and tractors, when equipped with proper rollover protection structures and seat belts, under specified conditions. "

Wanting to create more laws like this one they have proposed , so a kid will never learn anything other than sitting on the couch and playing video games .

Have any of you looked at these proposals from the U.S. Department of Labor ?

Agriculture facing major changes in child labor laws | Government content from Delta Farm Press


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

steve IN said:


> Some people truly are disabled but from what I have seen hanging out at my familys tavern way too many of them are just plain old lazy.





cwright said:


> What's even more amazing is the amount of "disabled" hanging out in taverns that can also pick up a 250 pound tongue weight bass boat trailer and wag it to the lake. I guess having a bad back disqualifies work but has nothing to do with pleasure.


I personally know of two people on disability that will admit they BS'd their doctors into backing their disability up and that there is nothing wrong with them.

On the other hand my mother had a brain tumor about 20 years ago. A couple of surgery's later from all the swelling and poking around in her head didn't leave her much more than a vegetable for 6 months until the swelling went down, took another 3 years for her to get back to normal and another year after that before she was released for work again. Took 3 years and a lawyer from the time of her first surgery to get her disability. Went back to work for 5 or 6 years then the tumor came back, used a different procedure this time and the neurologist told her no more work as it was stress that was causing the tumor to come back, she still had to go around again with Social Security to get her disability back.

Same with my wife, family doctor and both her heart specialists said no more work, took 2 years and a lawyer to get her disability and now that she has it she already has a medical review coming up while the two dead beats I mentioned got theirs in literally no time at all and haven't been reviewed yet.


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## K WEST FARMS (Apr 4, 2011)

Its kind of sad when perfectly healthy people , who's main problem is just being lazy , talk or fake their way into programs which are desparately needed by the truly disabled among us !!!! Human behavior can leave a lot to be disired !!! Takes all kinds to make up the human race. JMHO!!! John


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