# Baleage question



## Jimbob_walker (Dec 31, 2017)

With my job, I'm lucky to have 3 days to make hay. I'm considering trying my hand at wet hay next year. How long do you guys normally leave it lay before baling? Some videos I've watched they are baling right behind the mower and wrapping in black and some videos they let the hay dry a bit.


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## Jimbob_walker (Dec 31, 2017)

It's orchard, trefoil and clover


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Depends a lot on the cutting for example for their fifth cutting it might take two and a half days to get it down to 60% so you can wrap. Second cutting the 20th of June two and a half hours, if the ground was dry when you mowed.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Normally mow one day bale the next. If you have lots of clover or want it dryer you can tedd it.


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## chevytaHOE5674 (Mar 14, 2015)

All depends on the weather. This summer I did some mowed in the am and baled in the pm at 50% moisture, and some mowed on day 1 and baled on day 3 at 50%. In June and July here you have to watch it because if it's sunny/dry/windy it can get too dry on you in a hurry.


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## Jimbob_walker (Dec 31, 2017)

Thanks for the info guys, there was a lot of clover that has come up on its own. I tried a field of wet this year and I think I got it a bit dry. It smells good and sweet and the herd loves it, but I'd like to make the best quality I possibly can.

What is the difference between the black and the white wrap?


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Jimbob_walker said:


> Thanks for the info guys, there was a lot of clover that has come up on its own. I tried a field of wet this year and I think I got it a bit dry. It smells good and sweet and the herd loves it, but I'd like to make the best quality I possibly can.
> 
> What is the difference between the black and the white wrap?


That would be what they call sweet hay. I baled some that I could not quite get dry and bale moisture ran from 18-35%. Lower than I like but had no choice but to wrap. Customer bought 10 for horses and tried one and had the other 21 paid for within the hour.

The biggest thing is to make sure they are wrapped properly. It's not cheap can't "save" money by limiting yor wrapping.


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## Jimbob_walker (Dec 31, 2017)

This is a little different topic, but I had some pretty rank hay down. It's in a very wet field that I'm lucky if I make 2 cuttings on. It's free ground though. Rain was coming and I had to get it baled when it wasn't completely dry. A buddy of mine said to wrap it so I did. I left 4 bales un wrapped to see if it made a difference. Honestly, I think the hay did better un wrapped. They all have mold on the outside and have sort of a sweet and sour smell. The herd eats it up but not like the good hay. Some of the bales are slopping wet on the bottom and has a horrible rotten smell. I've been taking the mold off and cutting any of the rotten smelling hay off. I think I would have been further ahead to not wrap that junk hay.


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

Did that hay get alot of rain on and wrapped wet?


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## Jimbob_walker (Dec 31, 2017)

No it was dang near dry. About 75 percent was dry and 25 was still wet


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## pettibone (Jul 18, 2015)

I wrap all my hay, work by myself and would never be able to get it done if I was making dry hay. I cut in the morning and bale same day in the afternoon, been doing it like that for a while. Usually June and July is when I cut not real early. Seems to me the biggest issue is holes in the plastic, have had a lot of issues with hay at my house while hay that I've left other places seems perfect. Come to find out have a cat that likes to get on top of the double stacked bales and when jumping up digs his claws into the side of the bales, that's all it takes to get mold.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

pettibone said:


> have had a lot of issues with hay at my house while hay that I've left other places seems perfect. Come to find out have a cat that likes to get on top of the double stacked bales and when jumping up digs his claws into the side of the bales, that's all it takes to get mold.


Due to the fact that I hate cats it would be no problem for that cat to become MISSING in action.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Jimbob_walker said:


> This is a little different topic, but I had some pretty rank hay down. It's in a very wet field that I'm lucky if I make 2 cuttings on. It's free ground though. Rain was coming and I had to get it baled when it wasn't completely dry. A buddy of mine said to wrap it so I did. I left 4 bales un wrapped to see if it made a difference. Honestly, I think the hay did better un wrapped. They all have mold on the outside and have sort of a sweet and sour smell. The herd eats it up but not like the good hay. Some of the bales are slopping wet on the bottom and has a horrible rotten smell. I've been taking the mold off and cutting any of the rotten smelling hay off. I think I would have been further ahead to not wrap that junk hay.


Sounds like preservative would have been a better choice in this particular situation.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

pettibone said:


> I wrap all my hay, work by myself and would never be able to get it done if I was making dry hay. I cut in the morning and bale same day in the afternoon, been doing it like that for a while. Usually June and July is when I cut not real early. Seems to me the biggest issue is holes in the plastic, have had a lot of issues with hay at my house while hay that I've left other places seems perfect. Come to find out have a cat that likes to get on top of the double stacked bales and when jumping up digs his claws into the side of the bales, that's all it takes to get mold.


How much plastic do you put on? I can find the scratches and a few punctures but when I open them have a mold spot the size of a quarter. I utilize 21 revolutions to wrap.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

pettibone said:


> Come to find out have a cat that likes to get on top of the double stacked bales and when jumping up digs his claws into the side of the bales, that's all it takes to get mold.


Hmmm. That sounds like a problem that could easily be rectified. 

Regards, Mike


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## pettibone (Jul 18, 2015)

My wrapper was set upfor 20 inch wrap when I got it. Used to wrap it completely 3 times for each bale, now I use 30 inch wrap never changed the wrapper so it has a lot of overlap and now I wrap it two times, which is good if no holes.

The only way I saw the cat was with a game camera sonever saw him on the hay, but I kinda like cats so now I put food in the barn for him which seems to help keep him off the hay and once in a while he catches a mouse so I'm happy


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Everyone i talk toaround here thathas tryed wrapped hay says mice, rats, birds and wild hogs are issues with it. Do yall report the same issues?


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

StxPecans said:


> Everyone i talk toaround here thathas tryed wrapped hay says mice, rats, birds and wild hogs are issues with it. Do yall report the same issues?


Have mice/rat tunnels under the bales but they don't go through the plastic


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## pettibone (Jul 18, 2015)

Last year had some second cut that had tons of clover, was the first time had a few tunnels in the bottom of a couple bales, I'm assuming something to do with all the clover. Never had that happen before, always tunnels under the bales but never into them.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

pettibone said:


> My wrapper was set upfor 20 inch wrap when I got it. Used to wrap it completely 3 times for each bale, now I use 30 inch wrap never changed the wrapper so it has a lot of overlap and now I wrap it two times, which is good if no holes.
> The only way I saw the cat was with a game camera sonever saw him on the hay, but I kinda like cats so now I put food in the barn for him which seems to help keep him off the hay and once in a while he catches a mouse so I'm happy


wrapped bales should have 8 mil of coverage on them to keep the best so 8 layers of 1 mil. To keep the best.Dry hay wrapped is even more important to have enough wraps on then wet hay for it to keep.

Common denominator of hay not keeping that is wrapped is they tried to get buy cheap and didn't put enough wrap on.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

So if a bale gets a hole in it and say you feed it 6 months later without repairing the hole to a herd of cows do you have to dig out the bad part or will the cows eat around the bad part?

I was asking my local extension service agent and he said if i plant red clover in my pasture and my cows eat it they will bloat and die.
I then asked about red clover and baleage, he said you would have to have a vertical mixer and mix half clover baleage half regular hay or they will bloat and die.
Then i asked about making red clover dry hay he said they will still bloat and die on clover hay???

Well I have priced some good red clover seed and to plant pretty thick for hay it would cost me about $30 an acre, if I let it goto maturity should get about 100 units of nitrogen?
If I cut and bale at say 1/2 bloom would i get 50 units of nitrogen? What feed value is lost if letting it go longer than say full bloom? 
$30 an acre for 100 units is looking cheaper than 46-0-0 or 32%.
I was thinking if i let it go a little longer than I should would it dry down easier and still be say 12% protein hay?

According to my extension service guy if you do anything but disc clover under you gain 0 nitrogen. My dad who has a horticulture degree says the longer you let it go the more nitrogen will go in the soil via the roots but taking the top of the plant has no effect. 
In my area I think its just not a crop grandpa planted so not alot of local knowledge? 
First and farmost i dont want to kill my cows.

Dad is finishing mowing today and before thursday or friday we will notill in some sort of seed. Last year we put in ryegrass (tetraploid) in early november and we didnt have enough moisture for it to come up till dec 5th and it still made good. Is it too late to plant red clover? One person I know that does plant it told me that he had been planting it around oct 30 but now plants oct 1st and earlier is better. 
Can plant ryegrass but the nitrogen i would have to put down for the hay and i have this planted in a young pecan orchard i would prefer clover as i am not taking away from the main crop here, growing healthy pecan trees. So say i got 2/3 the tonnage of the ryegrass and 2/3 the protein value and put a little nitrogen in the soil that is a win win to me. Now is it possible? Will cows die on clover hay, i am not buying a mixer, i could pit out one clover bale and one reghay bale. I have to bale it as i cannot graze said area.

Sorry for the long post and highjacking the thread.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

StxPecans said:


> So if a bale gets a hole in it and say you feed it 6 months later without repairing the hole to a herd of cows do you have to dig out the bad part or will the cows eat around the bad part?
> I was asking my local extension service agent and he said if i plant red clover in my pasture and my cows eat it they will bloat and die.
> I then asked about red clover and baleage, he said you would have to have a vertical mixer and mix half clover baleage half regular hay or they will bloat and die.
> Then i asked about making red clover dry hay he said they will still bloat and die on clover hay???
> ...


you need to find someone else for advise!Your extension agent must of farmed and went broke then got a job as a Extension agent.SMH


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Finding that person swnhay is very hard. Cant seem to get strait awnsers of first hand knowleage. Best i have is a guy a know who plants it for deer.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

StxPecans said:


> Finding that person swnhay is very hard. Cant seem to get strait awnsers of first hand knowleage. Best i have is a guy a know who plants it for deer.


You have found many, right here.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Nitrogen from legumes is put in the ground by the roots,absolutely nothing to do with dissing it under.plowing it down will add organic matter to the soil and help build it and add some N but the bulk of it is from the roots.

Cattle can bloat from Red clover but with any legume cattle should be eased into it so they get accustomed to it.Blending some grass hay with red clover would make a lot more sense then mixing dry and wet red clover.Mixing grass in with red clover for pasture or hay is a good idea to help control bloat.

Cutting later will lower feed value some but also reduce bloat chances.As any hay cutting late raises tonnage but lowers feed value.Cut it for what you need.Dont need rocket fuel to feed stock cows!On the other hand you don't want to bale sticks either.

Watched a guy with a nice stock cow herd my whole life graze redclover,alfalfa grass mix.He would bale off first cutting and graze the rest of the year.He did feed bloat blocks and some dry hay until they got accustomed to grazing.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Mixing at planting would be kind of counter productive as i am looking for that nitrogen. But baling late sounds like the ticket. When should i bale if i wanted to bale late? So dry clover hay baled late fed to say 20 cows(wet and dry) per bale every 3-4 days would cause bloat issue? Cows would still be foraging on pasture of course.
Bloat blocks are magnesium?
Adding in bloat blocks could one feed late cut dry clover hay for say 80% of a cows needs and be safe?

Hope that all makes sense driving a tractor as i type.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Also just put out 1.5 tons of chicken litter out will that effect things for the clover? Figure the p and k should help it.
And i think if i remember correctly my seed salesman said 7-10lbs of innoculated seed per acre at .5 to .3 inches deep?
Have a chance of 1-3 inches of rain friday.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Am i correct to assume about early may cutting? Maybe 1 to 2 tons an acre? Late clover would come in about 12+ protein?
Planning on 80 acres


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Mixing a little grass in it would not be counter productive.It would soak up any N from clover plants that died off or any N that they release every yr.A little grass would also aid in drying the hay.It would also reduce chances of bloat.

It's become common to add grass in with alfalfa and red clover would be no different in much of the country.If you want mostly red clover just put a touch of grass in maybe to get a 90-10% ratio.

Your chicken litter has quite a bit of N and the RC won't use it up like the grass would.

Up here we use orchardgrass mainly for the grass but also meadow brome and Fescue.You may want to look at Fescue down there,not sure whats best in your area.

Typical seeding rate for Red clover alone is 12-15 lbs acre

If it was me I'd plant more grass and shoot for a 70-30 ratio and alot of your bloat worries would go away.Well I'd actualy do alf/grass buy thats me and I'm here not there.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Well my main goal is to give the pecan trees the nitrogen. 
Alfalfa does not grow here.
The red clover is more to give the trees nitrogen but the added feed is good too.
I am thinking the dry down wont be as big of deal as clover burns up by early may anyways as we get hot and dry.
We have natural clovers that come up and i baled a spot that was pretty thick with it and it dryed up faster than the ryegrass although that was 2 bale (5x5.5) acre ryegrass and about 3/4 bale acre clover.

Really my figuring is 30bucks worth of clover per acre is cheaper than the urea to make that nitrogen. And get a little feed off it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Hmmm,maybe shoulda said that first,lol.

You wont get full benifit of N until the plant dies off and releases the N.There is some N each yr but not 100lbs.I have no idea how much.

There maybe other annual legumes that would work for what you are trying to do.Seed each yr but get more N every yr.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> You wont get full benifit of N until the plant dies off and releases the N.There is some N each yr but not 100lbs.I have no idea how much.


Gotta agree here, you most likely won't see the full benefit in one year, BUT still will see it over time. I been told has to do with the time it takes to 'rot' (decompose) the root system (hence the 'releasing' of the N), therefore biggest percentage in the first year, then lessor in proceeding years.

According to this article, releasing of N with alfalfa is over a 3-4 year period, perhaps RC could be in the same league?

https://www.kingsagriseeds.com/when-should-you-take-out-your-alfalfa-stand/

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the bloating, with dry hay though. Green hay (even chopped), is considered a no - no in my area with Alfalfa (or any legume hay). Unless, slowly interduce and/or mixed with something. Dry baled hay (or even haylage), naturally would have some introduction period, but no bloating that I heard of.

Different area, different growing conditions perhaps?

Larry


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

r82230 said:


> Gotta agree here, you most likely won't see the full benefit in one year, BUT still will see it over time. I been told has to do with the time it takes to 'rot' (decompose) the root system (hence the 'releasing' of the N), therefore biggest percentage in the first year, then lessor in proceeding years.
> 
> According to this article, releasing of N with alfalfa is over a 3-4 year period, perhaps RC could be in the same league?
> 
> ...


I took it that you were going to leave it for a few yrs as hay or are you tearing it up after 1 yr?


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

I like to plant each winter and by summer keep it mowed. Have been planting ryegrass but that is taking alot of my nutrition.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Well since i am still busy harvesting pecans going to have my dad no till ryegrass in agian this year tomorrow. Might plant 5 acres red clover for a test.
Really as a winter forage/hay crop ryegrass is hard to beat. Last year it was 22% protein and 2nd cutting was 18. Should be easy this year now that i have a tedder.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

pettibone said:


> Come to find out have a cat that likes to get on top of the double stacked bales and when jumping up digs his claws into the side of the bales, that's all it takes to get mold.


Mold preventative.

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/video-cougar-takes-down-house-cat-on-front-drive-of-florida-home/

Regards, Mike


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## pettibone (Jul 18, 2015)

All I can think of is the big holes that cat's claws will make


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

pettibone said:


> All I can think of is the big holes that cat's claws will make


That big cat doesn't need to climb the bale....it can hop on top of it like you would sit down on the toilet seat. 

Regards, Mike


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