# first response hay preservative



## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

So a friend of mine who just came back from empire field days where he got some info about this silicon based hay preservative wanted to know if i had ever heard of it, i haven't so i thought i would ask you guy. Has anyone used this stuff yet?


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

I talked to a sales rep couple years ago . But other then him and their web site I couldn't find any thing else about it . So never did any thing else about it .


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

I would love to hear from someone who used this product .


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

endow said:


> I would love to hear from someone who used this product .


Ditto...Getting ready to purchase Cropsaver And Applicator.


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

Hi ,I have been doing some trials with this product in the UK on very high DM haylage circa 70-75% DM and then wrapping. Will open some product in a couple of weeks. I have also done some work using the hay guard product on hay at 25% moisture and so far the results on this have been very good. I sent the hay for hygiene testing and mould ,yeast and thermophilic actimytes levels were extremely low in fact no change from the same hay later baled at 15%. Will post further results.


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## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

Haylageuk said:


> Hi ,I have been doing some trials with this product in the UK on very high DM haylage circa 70-75% DM and then wrapping. Will open some product in a couple of weeks. I have also done some work using the hay guard product on hay at 25% moisture and so far the results on this have been very good. I sent the hay for hygiene testing and mould ,yeast and thermophilic actimytes levels were extremely low in fact no change from the same hay later baled at 15%. Will post further results.


Never heard of hygiene testing and therermophilic actimytes levels could you educate me?


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

Sure,maybe you have different terms.
We supply the horse racing world and they are extremely anxious to avoid anything that will challenge the respiratory system . The hay Is checked and cultures grown at 25 degrees and 37 degrees which is taken as ambient temperature and blood temperature to see if moulds are present.They are particularly concerned about aspergillus moulds. Thermophilic actimytes form when hay heats and likewise are to be avoided. Moulds are measured in cfus per gram . That is colony forming units per gram. Hope this explains what you asked.


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## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

Thanks for the explanation Haylageuk. I check my hay for mold too but i use a shake and smell method not to scientific lol. I often dream about making haylage for horses while i'm tedding hay for the 4th time and dark clouds start rolling in. What size bale do you make? and once that bale is unwrapped is there a specific amount of time that the customer should have the whole bale fed? Do your customers treat their horses for botulism? Sorry for all the questions but the wet weather we have been here the last few years making haylage might be something to think about, thanks


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

Bale size is 80x70 at 4 feet long approx 250Kg each.When opened it wants using in 4-7 days. We aim for 65% DM and at that level botulism is suppressed by low moisture.

Its a couple of years out of date but if you see my website ther is a short film about what we do.

www.eurobale.com

Good luck with the hay .Last year was the worst for 20 years for us but this year has been kind.

Richard


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## triabordofarm (Apr 8, 2013)

Richard, excellent info for quality hay. I looked over your website and am curious about the price per ton for your premium horse hay. Just curious about the differences/likes between premium hay in the US compared to Europe or the UK. Nice operation you have.


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## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

I just got done watching your video and i very impressed! Thanks for sharing Richard , unfortunately i wont be able to stop thinking about haylage for horses for a few nights. Got to figure out which one of my customers i could convince to try it with. I have access to a large square baler(32"x32"), a round baler and wrapper. If i made a really small round bale like 4x3 would that work?On your web site you talk about rye grass is it italian rye grass? Thanks for your time, Ben


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

triabordofarm said:


> Richard, excellent info for quality hay. I looked over your website and am curious about the price per ton for your premium horse hay. Just curious about the differences/likes between premium hay in the US compared to Europe or the UK. Nice operation you have.


 We charge £190- 270 a ton delivered for the haylage. £270 being premium racing product,£190 being for sport and leisure horses. Hay prices vary but at the premium end you are lookingat £250- £300 for small bales. I have been buying some hay from the south of France Crau hay (google it)


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Haylageuk said:


> We charge £190- 270 a ton delivered for the haylage. £270 being premium racing product,£190 being for sport and leisure horses. Hay prices vary but at the premium end you are lookingat £250- £300 for small bales. I have been buying some hay from the south of France Crau hay (google it)


WOW, usually can't give haylage away around here. Most dairies already do their own haylage and buy dry hay, let somebody else deal with the headaches of getting it dry enough to bale. I have a feeling I'll be buying a lot of wrapped bales at the the auctions this winter and hauling in some of the better dry hay I put aside for the beef cows.

Off the top of my head at current exchange rates roughly the equivalent of $350-$410 a ton for haylage and $325-$450 a ton for small bales. I've seen small bales sell pretty high last year due to the drought, but have never seen haylage approach anything like it can sell their for. I've bought a lot of good loads of haylage for the beef cows at less than a hundred a ton.


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

mlappin said:


> WOW, usually can't give haylage away around here. Most dairies already do their own haylage and buy dry hay, let somebody else deal with the headaches of getting it dry enough to bale. I have a feeling I'll be buying a lot of wrapped bales at the the auctions this winter and hauling in some of the better dry hay I put aside for the beef cows.
> 
> Off the top of my head at current exchange rates roughly the equivalent of $350-$410 a ton for haylage and $325-$450 a ton for small bales. I've seen small bales sell pretty high last year due to the drought, but have never seen haylage approach anything like it can sell their for. I've bought a lot of good loads of haylage for the beef cows at less than a hundred a ton.


 Yes expensive but I would add that this is a delivered in price anywhere with-in a 6 hour drive and on pallets, the truck has its own forklift to unload. We also have a nutrionist available FOC to all our customers and run a free recycling system for all waste plastic.All product is likewise tested for minerals ,nutrition and moulds and batches of the same material are saved for all premium customers so there is no diet change in their season. We also guarantee never to run out of product so we have to carry a lot of stock. We even supply the London metropolitan police with 500 tons a year and this has to be delivered to 7 stations in central London,so far from convenient.

We are the most expensive for this type of product but it is niche marketing to add value and therfore not at commodity prices. Mainstream product sold to the riding school next door may be half my price.


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## stan (Jul 6, 2009)

We used first response for 2 years now on 2 tie Orchardgrass hay and also alfalfa both in 3x4 bales and 2 tie. The hay is used for retail sales. Some of the alfalfa 2nd cut was baled at 25-27% in 3x4 weighing 1500# in early June. We found it to come through ok when we opened the bales this week. We did increase the rate though. The hay would have been rained on for weeks had we not baled when we did.


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## Deere101 (Jun 24, 2010)

We have been using First response for two years now. I run to Massey(Hesston) 3x4 xd balers. Last year we ran side by side comparisons with Prop Acid, and First Response did a lot better on the higher moistures and in our touchy second crop hay. Last year I did a test on some hay that would have been dry however the weathermen were off, no sun and rain on the way. We started raking and baled right behind the rakes. The hay was running any where from 27 percent to 32 percent moisture on our harvest tech applicator. I took temp test and watched the hay closely. It did not mold at all and just turned a light brown color, and I would not even say it carmelized. I sold it to a dairy and they were very happy with it. But running in regular moistures it seems to do an awesome job and what I like about the product no smell like prop. and it will not rust the baler. We went 100 percent this year and will stay with this product. We are looking at raincoat for next year.

Matt


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

How does it compare price wise?
I can get crop saver for $490 for 55g tote
I did some reading on silicone and the knock on it was:
"Silicone. This is a known wood preservative. It coats and seals the surface of wood to keep molding down. The complication in hay is that much of the moisture is on the inside of the plant and coating the surface with silicone has proven ineffective."

Of course, this is Harvest Tec's take on it.


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## stan (Jul 6, 2009)

First responce


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## stan (Jul 6, 2009)

I believe the moisture is trapped in. I had one customer buy some 2 tie Orchard grass treated with first response and they salted it because it felt moist and they were storing it. They brought them back with mold all over. I took them to our barn stack where they got them and found no spoilage at all. Stan


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

prop acid is a fumigant if you get just 35% coverage it will do the job some other products need a much higher level of coverage to work. We try others and always end up back at prop . When trying a new preservative ask what level of coverage is required


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

If your comparing it on price, the product is either about the same (on lower moisture hay) or cheaper than the price for acid usage (on high moisture hay). It is a coverage based product, so unlike acid, you stay rather consistent with your dosage over a broader range of moisture levels. $5-6/ton should give you good protection starting at as low of moisture level as you feel you would like to treat up to approx 26-27% (figuring there will be some stem moisture which would boost total moisture to close to 30%). The beauty of the concept is the consistency it can give you over a range of moistures. If you hit a low spot that has higher moisture, it takes a traditional acid system a few flakes to make the adjustment to dosage. First Response has that covered. If you are going to bale at a higher moisture than that (27%), I recommend increasing the dosage rate by at least 30%. Baling at that high of moisture also requires some attention to how you store the hay. If you stack it with no room for ventilation, you will see heating between bales (which the product obviously can not help prevent). This concept is far different in how and why it works than any other concept that has been on the market. By getting good coverage on the forage, you are preventing mold from being able to colonize in the forage. Mold needs to colonize in order to be able to process it's food source. As a result, mold is unable to propagate throughout the forage the way it normally would. Usage of the silicone also limits the amount of oxygen entering the bale, which is why it does such an amazing job at preventing heating. It still allows the moisture to evaporate off the hay; though it does slow that process down a bit (which can also be viewed as a benefit as it will help you retain your tonnage better on hay that is being stored). You will also note that the forage will have a softer, more palatable feel to it. I always suggest trying it in comparison to your existing product...while keeping in mind that once you have tried it, we have equipment that can be added to existing systems to make usage of the product much more user friendly.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

We have also designed full application systems for the concept as well for those looking to get equipped with a full system. It incorporates a dual pump system with direct injection of the product at time of application instead of pre-mixing.

The Facebook page shows a lot of pictures of what the systems look like: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nurturite/159876954092737?ref=hl


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## [email protected] (Jun 5, 2013)

Propionic acid is a contact killer and the higher the moisture of the hay the more you have to put on for it to work properly (4 LBS/ton at lower moisture up to 10-12 LBS/ton at higher moisture levels). Hay Guard is a sulphur based product. It turns into sulphur dioxide when applied and migrates within the bale. The application rate for Hay Guard is 2 LBS per ton of hay, up to 25% moisture. I'm not sure of the mode of operation of First Response.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> How does it compare price wise?
> I can get crop saver for $490 for 55g tote
> I did some reading on silicone and the knock on it was:
> "Silicone. This is a known wood preservative. It coats and seals the surface of wood to keep molding down. The complication in hay is that much of the moisture is on the inside of the plant and coating the surface with silicone has proven ineffective."
> ...


Considering they have never tried to use it before, not sure how they would prove it ineffective. There are trials taking place at moment at a University level comparing the First Response product to Prop Acid which will prove it to be effective in comparison. It is also cheaper on average than Prop Acid. Cost per ton would be $5-6/ton consistently.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> Propionic acid is a contact killer and the higher the moisture of the hay the more you have to put on for it to work properly (4 LBS/ton at lower moisture up to 10-12 LBS/ton at higher moisture levels). Hay Guard is a sulphur based product. It turns into sulphur dioxide when applied and migrates within the bale. The application rate for Hay Guard is 2 LBS per ton of hay, up to 25% moisture. I'm not sure of the mode of operation of First Response.


As stated in my first post:

This concept is far different in how and why it works than any other concept that has been on the market. By getting good coverage on the forage, you are preventing mold from being able to colonize in the forage. Mold needs to colonize in order to be able to process it's food source. As a result, mold is unable to propagate throughout the forage the way it normally would. Usage of the silicone also limits the amount of oxygen entering the bale, which is why it does such an amazing job at preventing heating.


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## jdhayfarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

Hay guard is nothing but a rust maker that will make your baler look like its 100 years old in 24 hours. Just tried the first response on some second crop grass so far it seems to be doing a good job. Best part about it is it doesn't smell and won't hurt our baler!


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## DFarms (Nov 1, 2009)

We have been using raincoat for 2 years. Raincoat is the silicon preservative you apply at cutting. We apply on alfalfa/orchard grass, timothy, and long rye straw. We have been happy with the product. We have found that rye can stand more rain, hold color better and not go moldy in the windrow as quick when the weather changes unexpectedly. We also have noticed that the hay seems to take less time to dry down. Pretty sure that the morning dew is not absorbing back into the hay. Haven't tried first response but did run some raincoat through the baler. Used it on 3rd cutting last year and had no hay go bad. We normally run proprionic acid through the balers and have had some success and some failures. WIth the weather around here the last 2 years anything we can do to protect product we have on the ground or get it off the ground sooner we look at and raincoat has been a good product for us so far.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Ok, I'm confused, silicone? Isn't silicone the stuff that comes in the little packs that absorbes moisture, that you find in your new electronics. The stuff that says do not eat? Isn't silicon the stuff that was until recently found in most of your shampo, that the manufactures have been discontinuing because of pollution in our oceans? 
Can some one please clarify? Sorry in advance if I'm just really confused.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

DSLinc1017 said:


> Ok, I'm confused, silicone? Isn't silicone the stuff that comes in the little packs that absorbes moisture, that you find in your new electronics. The stuff that says do not eat? Isn't silicon the stuff that was until recently found in most of your shampo, that the manufactures have been discontinuing because of pollution in our oceans?
> Can some one please clarify? Sorry in advance if I'm just really confused.


There is a big difference between silica (absorbent used with electronics) and silicone. Also, there are many different types of silicone. The type we use is a safe, food grade silicone which you will find in a lot of things we eat every day (ie. chicken nuggets, the oil used to fry french fries, it was a listed ingredient in walleye fillets I purchased at the grocery store last week, also the active ingredient in Mylanta II, etc, etc.). If you would like further info on the structure of the product, I can get you more info so you can dig in on it more if you would like.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

toms0012 said:


> There is a big difference between silica (absorbent used with electronics) and silicone. Also, there are many different types of silicone. The type we use is a safe, food grade silicone which you will find in a lot of things we eat every day (ie. chicken nuggets, the oil used to fry french fries, it was a listed ingredient in walleye fillets I purchased at the grocery store last week, also the active ingredient in Mylanta II, etc, etc.). If you would like further info on the structure of the product, I can get you more info so you can dig in on it more if you would like.


Oh ok thanks, I would Ike to see more info please, or a URL. I ask because I recently installed a harvest tec applicator, and was planing on hay guard, instead of acid.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

jdhayfarmer said:


> Hay guard is nothing but a rust maker that will make your baler look like its 100 years old in 24 hours. Just tried the first response on some second crop grass so far it seems to be doing a good job. Best part about it is it doesn't smell and won't hurt our baler!


I've found prop acid to do exactly that. Have had zero rust problems when using Hayguard. However I've heard unless you completely neutralize any trace of prop acid before using the Hayguard rust certainly can be one of your problems.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

wait, I'm not sure if I'm understanding. I plan on using crop saver (buffered proprionic acid)
Thats not going to create rust problems, right?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> wait, I'm not sure if I'm understanding. I plan on using crop saver (buffered proprionic acid)
> Thats not going to create rust problems, right?


The stuff I was using was supposed to be buffered, never directly caused rust, but certain areas that held a lot of it the paint would peel right off in big flakes. Any plated pieces would cause the plating to flake off.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

First Response would actually be considered more of a lubricant in comparison.


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## danmiller22584 (Sep 4, 2013)

I'm in the mountains of western pennsylvania and believe me we get our share of clouds and showers! I've been using first response for 3 years and raincoat for 2 years. I'll never go back to acid! This stuff really does work and saves money too! We have 500 acres of alfalfa and 500 of timothy-orghard grass. We use raincoat on everything even if the forcast looks good. It keeps the hay from bleaching from heavy dews and actually dries down several hours faster! I've done many side by side comparisons the last couple years and my conclusion is that you can bale up to 20% moisture with only raincoat and 25% when using raincoat and first response. I've also seen 10-15% higher tests on alfalfa because i'm saving more leaves!


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

DSLinc1017 said:


> Oh ok thanks, I would Ike to see more info please, or a URL. I ask because I recently installed a harvest tec applicator, and was planing on hay guard, instead of acid.


Feel free to check out following link on Wikipedia. Keep in mind there are many types of this compound with many different characteristics. There are a few things they over generalize...but there is some good info in this as well as far as uses, etc.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

danmiller22584 said:


> I'm in the mountains of western pennsylvania and believe me we get our share of clouds and showers! I've been using first response for 3 years and raincoat for 2 years. I'll never go back to acid! This stuff really does work and saves money too! We have 500 acres of alfalfa and 500 of timothy-orghard grass. We use raincoat on everything even if the forcast looks good. It keeps the hay from bleaching from heavy dews and actually dries down several hours faster! I've done many side by side comparisons the last couple years and my conclusion is that you can bale up to 20% moisture with only raincoat and 25% when using raincoat and first response. I've also seen 10-15% higher tests on alfalfa because i'm saving more leaves!


Are you applying product when you cut, to help it dry faster and have less bleaching?


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## danmiller22584 (Sep 4, 2013)

Yea we are applying raincoat at the mower then if moisture is over 20% when baling we also put first response on. Been seeing 15-25 RFV points higher on alfalfa with raincoat applied and better color along with faster dry down.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

danmiller22584 said:


> Yea we are applying raincoat at the mower then if moisture is over 20% when baling we also put first response on. Been seeing 15-25 RFV points higher on alfalfa with raincoat applied and better color along with faster dry down.


So there's a tank on mower and nozzles behind cutter bar?


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

There is a tank on the side of the swather, and an adjustable spray bar applying the product right as it goes into the swather.

Facebook Link for a look at a swather unit: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Nurturite/159876954092737


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Wow, so much good information, it all just confuses me though lol. What's the best option for a small time guy like me only haying 40ac roughly about 4,000 sm bales a year. I struggle with first cutting orchard grass hay getting it dry. I will have 20ac of straight Orchard grass fields next year so i'm looking at a few thousand dollars in hay just from first cutting and I can get $4.50 a small bale locally just taking wagon there.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'd do a 25g harvest Tec and Crop Saver. Pretty well thought of and easy to get. Messicks has it on sale right now.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

You can run First Response through a small self built system if nothing else. In your case, you would be mixing small batches and using it relatively quickly anyway. There are a lot of smaller growers using it that way. The concept will outperform prop without the threat of corrosion and without negatively affecting the pallitability. I can run through usage with you if you want to try it.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

Our system for small square balers would be another option, though depending on your output, the direct inject system we offer may not be fully necessary.


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## Mweiss1021 (Oct 19, 2013)

I've been using the small square bale sprayer option since August with great results. I had a storm roll in on me. The hay tested 24% coming out of the baler. I checked it again the next day, it was 170 degrees. The next day it tested 120 degrees and the following day it was 78 degrees(ambient temp). I just broke apart the bales from the bundle last week. The alfalfa is still bright green with all the leaves and still smells great. I wouldn't have that hay available if it weren't for the first response product. We are now trying the sprayer on our big round baler on cornstalks. More info to come soon.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Wow. I have never seen any hay that was 170 degrees. Hope that was not in the barn !


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Mweiss1021 said:


> I've been using the small square bale sprayer option since August with great results. I had a storm roll in on me. The hay tested 24% coming out of the baler. I checked it again the next day, it was 170 degrees. The next day it tested 120 degrees and the following day it was 78 degrees(ambient temp). I just broke apart the bales from the bundle last week. The alfalfa is still bright green with all the leaves and still smells great. I wouldn't have that hay available if it weren't for the first response product. We are now trying the sprayer on our big round baler on cornstalks. More info to come soon.


I would like to hear more on this product. I have never seen hay get hot and stay green.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

We've never seen treated hay as hot as that...however, I believe Mweiss is using a bale bandit or bale barron. In that type of usage, a little bit of oxygen is being trapped between bales inside that bundle. Until that oxygen is utilized, you will see just a little bit of heating. Once it has been used, the temp will fall back to ambient temperature.

We have had some growers put up very high moisture alfalfa (for example) in round bales. They have told us that the only time they have seen heating is when they spear the bales to bring them home to the farm. The bales would heat to approx 100-105 degrees...but would drop back down to ambient temp within a few days as the bales settle into place and oxygen exposure is minimized.

This product functions in a much different manner than prop acid, sulfanated salts, or bacteria...just something to keep in mind.


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## Mweiss1021 (Oct 19, 2013)

Yes I am using a banding system which does compound the heating factor. Like I said earlier though after day three even the bales in the center of the bundle had reached ambient temperature. I left the bundles spread out on the floor to see how they would cool and so I could test them daily. After day three I restacked them in the barn. I pulled apart a couple bundles and bales to see if the product had been applied and was indeed working. To my amazement it was doing it's job very well. The hay was still green, had it's leaves in tact and still smelled like fresh hay. My calves never noticed a difference when I fed it to them.


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## Haylageuk (Jan 21, 2012)

I have recently run a series of trials using 3 types of preservative the majority of the tests involved baling haylage at 65+ DM and wrapping. I then opened the bales after 5 months left some in a fully heated workshop and some in an outside barn and monitored temp every day , and every week and sent samples away for spore and mould analysis. The product that remained totally stable the longest was the first responce treated Timothy even in a heated workshop there was no real change in results after three weeks. Some untreated product heated in 5 days. Hay guard performed well in a separate hay test but I did not compare it to any other products in this test.


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## bensbales (Jul 18, 2011)

Haylageuk said:


> I have recently run a series of trials using 3 types of preservative the majority of the tests involved baling haylage at 65+ DM and wrapping. I then opened the bales after 5 months left some in a fully heated workshop and some in an outside barn and monitored temp every day , and every week and sent samples away for spore and mould analysis. The product that remained totally stable the longest was the first responce treated Timothy even in a heated workshop there was no real change in results after three weeks. Some untreated product heated in 5 days. Hay guard performed well in a separate hay test but I did not compare it to any other products in this test.


So are you going to implement first response next year? Did the timothy ferment at all at 65% Dm? what kind of rv values did you get . I did some similar Dm 2nd cut hay in round bales and it looks just like it did when i baled it and smells like damp grass. The customers cows absolutely love it, he said it was the nicest hay he has ever bought


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

For those interested in follow up info on additional grower trials for the product (particularly those putting up high moisture hay and wrapping it), please check out the following:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0_aHs8Vp5gAcjVCS2FNZVQycTA/preview?pli=1]https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0_aHs8Vp5gAcjVCS2FNZVQycTA/preview?pli=1

This is 4th cutting from a grower in OR. The camera doesn't really do it full justice. It was like dark green spinach.
Baled September 16th, 2013, 35% moisture.
The dry product (mirco-waved dry at time of baling) was sent out and tested 19.2% protein and 194 RFV. He just sent in a sample to have it tested after the bale was opened (will update with test results on opened haylage once they are rec'd). All customers said it fed out well with no signs of mold at all. The bales weighed just as much at time of sale as they did when they were baled. 
The bales were treated during baling with First Response, then wrapped shortly there after. It shows no heating, no-spoilage or mold and no negative signs of fermentation.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

For those interested; the test results on the forage shown in video listed in post above came back showing that the haylage maintained it's protein levels and fiber content.

Also, just to clarify a bit; it does not prevent fermentation. It does prevent the oxidation as well as the mold. You will end up seeing positive fermentation without the heating (and the damage to forage quality associated with it).


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

toms0012 said:


> For those interested in follow up info on additional grower trials for the product (particularly those putting up high moisture hay and wrapping it), please check out the following:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0_aHs8Vp5gAcjVCS2FNZVQycTA/preview?pli=1]https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0_aHs8Vp5gAcjVCS2FNZVQycTA/preview?pli=1
> 
> ...


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

toms0012 said:


> For those interested; the test results on the forage shown in video listed in post above came back showing that the haylage maintained it's protein levels and fiber content.
> 
> Also, just to clarify a bit; it does not prevent fermentation. It does prevent the oxidation as well as the mold. You will end up seeing positive fermentation without the heating (and the damage to forage quality associated with it).


I can replicate your results flawlessly, without the First Resopnse. I am interested in your product, but only as an alternative to wrapping if it can be done more economically. Big bales can and will yield perfect quality feed very consistently if a few simple rules are followed:
Make a tight bale, the denser the better
Apply enough high quality wrap to get the bale completely sealed
Handle and store in such a way that you maintain the seal

The conditions you describe about the hay in the video are among the easiest to work in. The fourth cut is fine stemmed so it packs good and the stems rarely poke thru. Also, harvest temperature is likely lower so microbial activity is generally slower. That stuff comes out of the bale like candy every time.

A better test of your product would be second cut, baled at 25-30% on a hot humid July day. Show me that it can make better feed under those conditions, where a wrapped big bale can occasionally have some mold growth just under the plastic.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

I'm curious as to how much the "impregntor" or what ever you call it costs to add to a simple application system like the one we have. I was told the shelf life once you mix it are only good for a couple hours, and i'm not always on track as to how many tons of hay are out in the field. Don't want to run out, and don't want to have to dump 5 gals. of product at the end of the day that wasn't used.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

6125 said:


> I'm curious as to how much the "impregntor" or what ever you call it costs to add to a simple application system like the one we have. I was told the shelf life once you mix it are only good for a couple hours, and i'm not always on track as to how many tons of hay are out in the field. Don't want to run out, and don't want to have to dump 5 gals. of product at the end of the day that wasn't used.


The injection add-on kits you can get do allow for much easier usage of the product. The injection unit not only allows for unlimited shelf life; but also makes it easy to flush the system clean whenever you care to do so.

If used in a single tank unit (such as an acid system), I would suggest usage within 6-8 hours. A lot of people try it that way on 10-15 tons or something just to get a look at the product without having to invest in the add-on kit on the initial trial.

Drop me an email if you'd like, and I can get more info to you. [email protected]


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

IAhaymakr said:


> I can replicate your results flawlessly, without the First Resopnse. I am interested in your product, but only as an alternative to wrapping if it can be done more economically. Big bales can and will yield perfect quality feed very consistently if a few simple rules are followed:
> Make a tight bale, the denser the better
> Apply enough high quality wrap to get the bale completely sealed
> Handle and store in such a way that you maintain the seal
> ...


What has impressed growers with these concepts is the consistency they are able to achieve with usage. Regardless of whether it is dry hay, individually wrapped high moisture haylage, or the version used on silage put into bunkers or pits.

That said, there is no question that having good harvesting practices will always allow a grower the best results. We are just hoping to allow for larger windows of opportunity to harvest while creating more margin for error.

There is an individual I could put you in touch with in IA that has harvested "dry" hay at very high moisture levels using this product. Let me know if you care to speak with him. His situations are a bit different than yours, but he'd be able to give you a good indication of what it is capable of. Major suggestion I would make is to try it for yourself. I think you would be impressed, even if trying it on a smaller scale.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

My eyes are open...

The only weak link that I need to overcome in my system is the occasional bale, like one out of ten, from a pile that will have mold growth on the surface only. In reality it is a cosmetic problem only, because an 1800 lb DM bale with a little mold under the plastic doesn't even have measurable contamination. But if you are trying to market it as perfect a customer has every right to complain. So the real problem here is finding a way to eliminate this very small and generally rare problem without spending a fortune. Can I spend 10-20$ per ton to cure this issue? Likely not. I think the real solution is to decide which lots of hay will be stored longer and use a couple dollars more per bale on wrap. The rarity of the problem suggests to me that my seal isn't always good enough and I have air exchange enough to allow some microbial activity.
I would be interested in talking to someone who is using your product and has practical experience with it. Depending on cost, there could be times where it might be more economical than wrapping, especially where long term storage in not an issue.


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## zephyrtear (Apr 3, 2013)

toms0012 said:


> Considering they have never tried to use it before, not sure how they would prove it ineffective. There are trials taking place at moment at a University level comparing the First Response product to Prop Acid which will prove it to be effective in comparison. It is also cheaper on average than Prop Acid. Cost per ton would be $5-6/ton consistently.


Hi toms,

I was wondering if the trials you mentioned have been completed and if the results are out. Ive been very curious about this.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

zephyrtear said:


> Hi toms,
> 
> I was wondering if the trials you mentioned have been completed and if the results are out. Ive been very curious about this.


The tests are ongoing this season. I will keep you posted.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

A few growers who are using First Response and/or Raincoat have requested that I post the usage information associated with the respective products.

*First Response*:

Dosage rate of 12 oz per ton recommended for product being received in a jug. 16 oz dosage rate for product received in a tote. (These are standard coverage based dosage rates for moisture levels up to 26%. If going above that and continuing to bale as dry hay, I would increase the dosage rate by 25-50%).

Usage through a direct injection system: dilute it at a 6:1 ratio with water (if water is not an issue, always dilute at a 10:1 rate), yellow AI tips suggested, no concerns about shelf life to the product. Just flush system with water after usage for a min or two to clean it out.

Usage through a single tank unit: dilute it at a 10:1 ratio with water, use a screen of 50 mesh or less, be sure to remove any filters from the nozzle tips you will be using. Recommend only letting product sit mixed for 5-6 hours or less (the hotter it is and the more sand or sediment you have in the water, the quicker it will separate). Be sure to flush system out when finished using&#8230;we have small canisters of an SLS detergent that can be used to flush system clean.

*Raincoat (applied at swather)*:

Dosage rate of 12 oz per ton on jug product; 16 oz per ton on toted product.

Direct injection system: Dilution ratio of 6:1 w/water. Yellow AI nozzles recommended.

Single tank systems: Dilution ratio of 10:1 w/water. 50 mesh screen recommended. Yellow AI nozzles recommended.

You will be looking to apply total mixed rate of anywhere from a little over a 1/2 gallon to a gallon per ton dosage depending on whether you are using direct injection or a single tank applicator.

Using more water than recommended will not harm you (actually should give you better spread on the product). Using less can cause some obvious issues with coverage. If water is not an issue, I would always recommend using a 10:1 ratio.

*Balage Usage*

If using First Response on balage, we have had growers using it with a variety of dosages. As low as 8 oz per ton and as high as 12 oz per ton.

Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

I found this paper on preservative comparison:

http://www.midwestforage.org/pdfRschProj/13EvalofSilicone.pdf

It would be nice to hear from people other than the company rep and people with single digit post counts how well First Response works for them.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

We used first Responce during last year's season for the first time. Both in rounds and smalls. Both balers are set up with 25gal harvest tech electronic applicators. These are the manual type designed for acid. We would mix in small batches into the tank righ before baling. The biggest issue with the product is that it does not mix well and separates almost immediately. The company is now promoting a simple solution that simplifies this issue as well as ensures the proper 10:1 mixture. It's called a mini dos 10. It simply automatically mixes the product after the water tank and uses the pressure to operate. I'm almost done building a cradle for the 6 gallon container it comes in with support for the mini dos 10. I will attempt to post a picture.

We are completely happy with the product. We didn't have one bad bale last year! And I was balling on the edge a few times in the low 20% range. It even saved the bottom layer that sits on pallets. Both rounds and smalls. One thing that sold me initially is there is one application rate. You don't need to calculate moisture as you would with acid. For us this was very helpful because a lot of our fields are small and very with moisture and humidity. Due to tree lines and hills, as well as low lying river sides.

A friend up the road is a commercial hay farmer who primarily bales in large squares. They to made the switch last year and have had great success. 
I hope this helps, 
Cheers,


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Here is the mini dos. This will sit next to the harvest tech tank on our round baler. Then have the ability to disconnect and move to the small square. The disconnects are from TSC. The in comes after the water pump, the out goes directly to the nozzles.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

SwingOak said:


> I found this paper on preservative comparison:
> 
> http://www.midwestforage.org/pdfRschProj/13EvalofSilicone.pdf
> 
> It would be nice to hear from people other than the company rep and people with single digit post counts how well First Response works for them.


So if you look at the study they did in detail, you would find that they stacked all three (treated w/First Response, treated with acid and untreated) side by side in the stack without anything separating the three subsets. Then they stacked dry hay around it on the outside.

In that type of set-up, when the untreated started to heat, that heat would then spread throughout the stack. As the First Response treated hay was stacked next to the untreated, it would be affected more than the acid treated hay.

The only way this study could be accurate on product performance would be to treat enough hay to have a separate stack for each treatment.

Stacking dry hay next to the untreated hay and the acid treated hay also sways the results as that dry hay will absorb some of the moisture from the higher moisture hay (note that the First Response treated hay did not have any dry hay next to it to absorb any moisture away from those bales).

For the study, the protocol was not set up in such a way to isolate the results. Anybody who has put up a lot of hay knows that if some of the hay in the stack heats, the bales surrounding the hot bales heat as well.

Needless to say, there were a substantial number of issues with the way this study was conducted that would not allow for accurate results.

In the meantime, no matter which treatment type someone uses, I always recommend that hay that is 25% or higher be stacked in such a way as to allow ventilation of that hay so the moisture has somewhere to go. This hay was stacked tight.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Would really like to see the whole set up on your small baler with the mini dos all hooked up. I need to get the mini dos unit to solve the separation issue I guess. Any chance of making another one of those jug/mini dos holders for me? Ha. I really like the product just need to get some more Toms, along with the mini dos.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> Would really like to see the whole set up on your small baler with the mini dos all hooked up. I need to get the mini dos unit to solve the separation issue I guess. Any chance of making another one of those jug/mini dos holders for me? Ha. I really like the product just need to get some more Toms, along with the mini dos.


First Responce folks are now set up as a dealer for the mini dos 10, so you can get it through them if you wanted or search the web. I will post some more pictures once it is all mounted. I had our local metal shop whip the holder up for me, I can certainly get you a price and ship it to you. Should have it all set up this next week.


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## dirtball08 (Jun 26, 2011)

Anybody know where I can get more info and purchase from a dealer in Alberta, Canada?

Thanks Verle


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

dirtball08 said:


> Anybody know where I can get more info and purchase from a dealer in Alberta, Canada?
> 
> Thanks Verle


PM Toms0012. He is the distributor / Manufacture.


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

So buying direct is the way to get First Response?


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

SwingOak said:


> So buying direct is the way to get First Response?


Yes, at least in the north east, they don't have a dealer net work set up. PM TOMS0012. 
I'll get in cognac with him and let him know to post some contact information.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

What is max moisture first response can be used to? Can it do 25% moisture hay?
Also, what is price comparison for it compared to crop saver?
Crop saver is $1.00-$1.10/ pound. And you need to apply 4-8lbs per ton for 16-20% moisture. 
I think crop saver is very expensive. Wouldn't mind staying with CS, but a cheaper price would be nice. Bigger tote gets you down to under $1.00/ pound. 
Typically, I'm spending about $3.00/ bale for CS. More if moisture is >19%.

Price of hay isn't going up, but every product we use in hay making process IS going up.


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## toms0012 (Jun 22, 2010)

This product functions a bit different than other products out there. It is a coverage based product.

I would typically suggest one set dosage rate for this product should function between 14-25% with standard bales (small square, round bales and standard big square bales). If going higher than 25%, we recommend increasing the dosage by 50% and being VERY careful to store the hay with extra space for ventilation so the moisture has somewhere to go (or you can see junction heating where the heating starts between the bales and spreads from the outside in).

Using an HD baler vs standard big square can have a substantial effect on how stem moisture manifests itself and you need to be careful about what your total moisture (including surface and stem moisture) actually ends up being. However, due to being coverage based vs having to change constantly based on moisture changes, it is a bit easier to use and does function better on an HD application than acid will.

Cost per ton on this product is $5-6/ton using standard dosage.

As of right now, buying direct is the best way to source the product. We are starting to build a network of dealers, however, getting an established dealer net work for the concept will most likely take a while.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Would it be possible DSLinc to get some dimensions on the jug holder and pump holder? I'd like to take pictures and dimensions to get my neighbor that has a big fab/welding shop.I guess I mainly just need a height and and distance between bottom of pump and the jug cause I have my jug of first response from last year. If possible maybe item numbers of the quick attach parts you got or sizes? I'm trying to be all set up and prepared when my Mini Dos arrives here shortly. Also you have 2 lines in the first response jug, one going in the lid and one at other top end. I'm assuming the one in the lid is the supply and it runs to the bottom of the jug, so what is the purpose of the other longer line? Did you just bolt the pump right to the holder? Also what size nozzles and are you using 2 nozzles on your small square baler and what pressure? Thanks


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> Would it be possible DSLinc to get some dimensions on the jug holder and pump holder? I'd like to take pictures and dimensions to get my neighbor that has a big fab/welding shop.I guess I mainly just need a height and and distance between bottom of pump and the jug cause I have my jug of first response from last year. If possible maybe item numbers of the quick attach parts you got or sizes? I'm trying to be all set up and prepared when my Mini Dos arrives here shortly. Also you have 2 lines in the first response jug, one going in the lid and one at other top end. I'm assuming the one in the lid is the supply and it runs to the bottom of the jug, so what is the purpose of the other longer line? Did you just bolt the pump right to the holder? Also what size nozzles and are you using 2 nozzles on your small square baler and what pressure? Thanks


Hello, sorry it's been a bit crazy on my end getting things lined up for the season, then life always seems to get in the way!
Here are the dimensions of the folder:
The tray is 11 3/4 deep x 11" wide x 3" tall
The uprights are 1" square tube they are 32 1/2" tall and 10" apart OD
Plate on top is 6" tall x 10" wide.
SO....the jug cap is threaded with a small plastic filler that can be tapped out. That tread is 3/4". Same as the the thread on the mini dos. 
The mini dos comes with a 1/2" ID suction hose that suction hose 
The OD of this hose fits very snug into the 3/4 thread with 1/2 hose nipple that I threaded into the cap of the 6 gallon container. I cut the hose to fit in the container (a bit longer)..... The suction hose will fit into the non threaded side of the adapter in the cap.
Two hoses coming out of the jug. One goes to the mini dos. The curly hose is just a breather for the jug. 
As far as the preasure and spray nozzle size. All good questions!!!! Our round small square has two outs the round has 3. 
I'll need to get back to you for those details. It will very depending on your baling rate and the type of nozzle you're using, then add pressure to the calculation!
I have more pictures on a different device, I will upload them soon.

I hope this helps, please ask if I didn't answer you questions.
Cheers,


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

What was your plan for fastening the holder to square baler? I might be getting a nh 316 so i might have to get to it with a whole new set up.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> What was your plan for fastening the holder to square baler? I might be getting a nh 316 so i might have to get to it with a whole new set up.


This set up is designed to transfer between a small square and round baler. For the small square it will sit and pin next to the harvest tech tank and pump in the back of the baler behind the twine box. For the round baler it will sit on top of the baler ne'er the front where the Harvest tech tank and pump sit. 
The important issue is that the mini dose needs to be above the tank (or fluid) that it is sucking from. 
I would design your set up to fill your needs and application. 
I designed this set up to transfer easily from baler to baler.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Your saying the mini dose needs to be higher then my applicator tank correct?


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> Your saying the mini dose needs to be higher then my applicator tank correct?


Yes, thats how I understand the directions.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Here are some more pictures of the Tray


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Used the mini dos today for the first time. Worked like a charm!


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Glad to hear i pulled the trigger and im buyin a nh 316. Hope to go get tomorrow or tues evening and start setting up applicator n moister meter sensors. Should have my Mini Dose end of this week, hope this does the trick. If i adjust the pressure on my applicator pump how do i know im getting the right 10 to 1 ratio?


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

The beauty of the mini dos. It automatically mixes! You will find there is a valve on top that allows you to flush the system with just water. Very convent as you don't want to leave the mixed solution in the tube or particularly in the spray nozzle. 
As well I have the harvest tech electronic, it uses two nozzles. I've been using the pink ones with a pressure around 30 to 40psi depending on how heavy my windrow is. I'm baling with a 565, not sure what the comparison is to the 316.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Here is the the Mini Dos hooked up to the small baler. Yes its held on with a ratchet strap! as this will come off this baler and move to the round baler and sit next to its Harvest tech tank.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Dslinc could you send a pic of how you did the cap set up? Im confused if u just drilled cap out n slide hose threw or used fitting on both sides of cap to attach 1/2 ID hose. Thanks im still waiting for my tray/holder to get made. I may just make out of wood n advantec temporary


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> Dslinc could you send a pic of how you did the cap set up? Im confused if u just drilled cap out n slide hose threw or used fitting on both sides of cap to attach 1/2 ID hose. Thanks im still waiting for my tray/holder to get made. I may just make out of wood n advantec temporary


The center of the cap is threaded. You will need to punch out the seal and you are good to go! Once you receive the jug it will become painfully obvious 

I will be able to send a picture next week as I'm away from the farm and making the best of the relentless wet weather here in Vermont!


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Is it still recommended to shake the jug up before each use now with using the mini dose? I got my jug n im settin up now unfortunately cant get holder made for awhile so im improvising n using my abilities n making it out of advantec plywood for now! So now i think i see wat u did with cap. I bought a 3/4 thread adapter to 1/2" hose. So u knocked center out screwed in adapater n shoved the suction hose on underneath cap into adapter then short hose n clamp on top to mini dose. I had thought about just drill hole out n sliding suction through rather then cutting but i think i like your idea better for takin apart.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

I too thought about drilling out the cap, however I think keeping it sealed is better as there is a lot of chaff during baling. Hence why I added a few loops of hose to the breather. 
As far as shaking the jug, I feel that there is plenty shaking going on as you bale!


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

So DSlinc, I believe I'm pretty much set up ready to go. I got the fittings all on the mini dos and adjusted the setting to the 10:1 I believe. I noticed while reading through the manual/instructions about the dosage piston. It appears they sent an extra one with it and some O rings, or are these parts I need to install in the pump before it's ready to go? Thanks I'm assuming they are extra/spares though. I'm anxious to try this sucker out. Oh one more thin I just thought of did you place your suction hose the 2" off the bottom of jug like it specifies or just let it rest on bottom? Still can't even get 2 good days here to try and get this old, straw looking orchard grass off the fields. My local dairy farmer/friend offered neighbor $50 an acre for his over mature orchard to bale up for heifer feed I think he said. Might see if he wants the 40ac on a lease property I do.

Thanks for all you help


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

I left a bend in the bottom of the hose so the black filter screen sits flat on the bottom of the jug. 
We too have had a record amount of rain. It just won't stop. Everything is starting to head out. The fields are so saturated it will take a good week of dry before we can even think about getting in the fields.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Just thought id post a pic of my setup i threw together real quick on my new to me nh 316. Its a pain havin it up top to fill n all but was only option with my longer tank. Ive defently put the first response to the test this weekend. Moisture was avg 23% on one load. Time will tell. Keep you all posted.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Here is an update, from hay baled last year, as I have been getting into these bales over the last month or so. I round baled several fields in the low to mid 20% range. The rounds are 4 x 4.5. and tight pressure cranked to the max on a NH7060 SS.

A week later I was seeing heat upwards of 100 +- on some rounds.

After feeding them out, some dust but not much. Horses have been eating it with no issues. The smell is good, and visually looks good.

I did loose some hay, from the same field, That hay was NOT treated. Due to a broken hose (operator Error). those bales went south quick.

In all good results, I will continue to use the product.


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## dirtball08 (Jun 26, 2011)

Dsl, could you post some pics please


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Once i had my system working right i had the same results as DSL on small squares. I even had a few bales that really spiked upper 20s and was poppin knots. I did not sell because i was skeptical and ive been pulling them out of loft and selling and feeding a few. Bales are heavy some dust but smells good and horses are still eating. I will continue to use also.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

dirtball08 said:


> Dsl, could you post some pics please


Pictures of the hay?


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## dirtball08 (Jun 26, 2011)

DSLinc1017 said:


> Pictures of the hay?


Yes please.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

DSL

I found this post now what your talking about is all coming together. The photos is worth a thousand words. I will be asking more questions but for now thank you. This site has helped me more than one could say. Great guys that like to share!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

DSL

Were did you get your set up for Minidos 10? Was this from Tom also? Along with the first response?

Thanks


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

TORCH said:


> DSLWere did you get your set up for Minidos 10? Was this from Tom also? Along with the first response?Thanks


Yes Toms is a dealer.


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## biker250 (Jun 19, 2013)

I am considering a preservative for my small square baler. NH575. I bale about 4,000/year and sell all of it to horse people. Does anybody have anything new to add about First Response? Are you all still using it and happy with it?


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

biker250 said:


> I am considering a preservative for my small square baler. NH575. I bale about 4,000/year and sell all of it to horse people. Does anybody have anything new to add about First Response? Are you all still using it and happy with it?


Hello Biker,

Sorry this is a bit of a late response! To answer you question, Yes I am still using first response and it still works! They have improved it so that it mixes with water better. The best way to apply is still with a minidos 10. Here is a picture of my new set up on a new to me 570.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Nice install.....


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Nice install.....


Thank you !! Appreciate the complement. The mini 10 un pins and can be moved to my round baler. Then connected to a harvest tech. 
Cheers,


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