# Another "Regulatory Abuse"



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

The opening paragraph says it well:

http://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/epa-just-declared-war-on-millions-of-car-owners/

What came to mind after reading this article was dismal success of the "Planned Economy" in the USSR. Having a government dictate things didn't work well in Russia, so why do we think it would work well here?

Ralph


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

W and this bill had good intentions, but now we all know this ethanol thing is not what it was intended to be. Too many undesirable consequences when ethanol is in the storage and fuel tank. Hopefully this can change if the country decides to go another direction politically.....and hopefully the EPA will be reeled in....they are out of control. Defund them and end their overthinking.

Regards, Mike


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

The problem with government programs is, that once they're started, they never go away.

I'm a firm believer in a Constitutional Amendment that every law, program, policy, regulation, etc., must have an expiration date and could only be renewed by a new bill voted on by Congress and signed by the president.

But, then again, what do I know?

Ralph


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

There were several issues with ethanol in fuel that was not mentioned however; the first was, the price of grain for livestock farmers increased dramatically after the enactment. It was one of many reasons why so many dairy farmers went under a few years back.

Grain prices in Maine anyway, quadrupled after the enactment, just as milk prices tanked if you will excuse the pun. For 3 years it caused incredible hardship, especially for the mid-sized dairy farms. Yes more acres of corn were planted, but overall farmers were sending corn to be made into ethanol competing with the need for livestock grain. It did not help with the government paying incentives for new ethanol plants to be made. Fortunately they saw the light on that and ended that abuse, but the damage was already done. For dairy farmers here, 3 years of below break-even-point milk prices had their toll, but ironically it was when milk prices soared in the 4th year that did so many farms in. Creditors were generous to dairy farms until they started to make money again...then all the creditors started wanting the money owed to them.

Consider this, it would be like your neighbor owing you money while he is on unemployment. Just getting by, you cut him some slack, but when he suddenly gets a great paying job, you want your money back. So does everyone else he owes money too. That is what happened here in Maine, and astronomically high grain prices were part of it. This was just one of many reasons why the big dairy farm failed, and as I mentioned, hauling manure and comprehensive nutrient management plans was another.

Another aspect was wood pellets. Here in Maine two huge pellet makers were supposed to take raw wood and make pellets from it for pellet stoves, but instead they found they could save costs if they bought sawdust from sawmills instead and used it to make pellets. This drove up demand, and the dairy farmers suddenly found themselves paying 4 times the expense for bedding material too. The northeast is fueled by heating oil (diesel fuel) and high heating oil caused a lot of people to buy pellet stoves and the demand for pellets was HUGE back then. High fuel prices, high bedding costs, high grain costs coupled with low milk prices was just too much.

And the low milk prices came because consumers were not buying as many pizzas, ice cream, and other dairy products simply because their extra money was going into the tank in high gasoline prices. So too did groceries. With more farm land being put into corn production instead of wheat, oats and soy beans; consumer grocery prices shot up 4 times as well.

How does this all relate, ole crazy thinking Rutted Field?

Ethanol was an answer to high fuel prices I know, but the problem is,so few people see the link between ethanol and the effect on grain prices, bedding material, high grocery prices, etc, and the lack of demand for milk. It is just not worth it. Yes it helped the corn farmers, and I am glad they got a nice break, but it killed the Northeast Dairy Farmers. We went from 400 to 150 dairy farms in this state now.

I don't quote communist leaders very often, but Fidel Castro even said, "Americans are stupid to use good fertile land that they could use to grow food on just to drive around with." The man had more insight then our Congressional Leaders.


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Disclaimer to the post above:

I mean no disrespect to any one who farms corn. I fully understand the laws of supply and demand and how this would be a huge boon to a farms operation. My point is that any decision made, no matter how small, effects others. Our congressional leaders think they can enact laws...and do...hoping to cure a single issue and instead bring upon the country a dozen more. It is why I am a huge fan of free enterprise. The world does not operate in a vacuum, without government involvement the private sector steps up to fill any needed voids.


----------



## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

RuttedField said:


> Disclaimer to the post above:
> I mean no disrespect to any one who farms corn. I fully understand the laws of supply and demand and how this would be a huge boon to a farms operation. My point is that any decision made, no matter how small, effects others. Our congressional leaders think they can enact laws...and do...hoping to cure a single issue and instead bring upon the country a dozen more. It is why I am a huge fan of free enterprise. The world does not operate in a vacuum, without government involvement the private sector steps up to fill any needed voids.


None taken.But the price of corn going up had more to do with a drought than anything.They produce as much Etanol as ever and with trend line yields the price has fallen to under 1/2 of what it was.

Dairies are there own worst enemies.They add more cows when prices are low to get a bigger milk check.And they add more cows when the price is high because they are makeing more money.

It doesn't matter what commodity it is.Corn,Milk,Hay,etc.If there is 5% over production the price crashes.If there is 5% under production the price soars.

I totally agree we need to get the government out of farming!!!


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> I totally agree we need to get the government out of farming!!!


And energy. And mining. And transportation. And.... And.....

And get them back into morality. And ethics. And leadership. And...

Ralph


----------



## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

Right or wrong the highest dollar hay I've ever sold in my life is when corn was 7 bucks.


----------



## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

Totally agree with the above comment about a free market. But what good is a free market when all we have to choose from is oil?


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rjmoses said:


> And energy. And mining. And transportation. And.... And.....
> 
> And get them back into morality. And ethics. And leadership. And...
> 
> Ralph


The only way that's gonna happen is if trump gets elected.
Hillary will just bring more more regs.
Look at TSA. A 95% failure rate. 
And some people still don't understand why trump is so popular now.....


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Not just TSA...

Here in Maine there is a heroine epidemic and it is killing the community in surprising ways. Our church has a new push for foster parents because so many kids are now orphaned by the incarceration and death of their parents from overdoses. Who would have thought such high costs would occur from mere drug abuse...

However, Teen Challenge (a poorly named group because it caters to mostly adults with drug issues), is God based and effective. Their success rate is 97% where as government run programs are 3% successful. That is a huge difference, yet because of political correctness, faith-based drug rehab programs are underutilized and unfunded. In fact only as a last resort can a judge suggest teen Challenge.

Hello...

I don't care if you are an atheist, wouldn't it make sense to use what works? Its like trying to bale hay right before a rainstorm coming in with a baler that breaks 97 out of the 100 bales that it makes. It just does not make sense!

PS: I grew up in a foster home, have 6 adopted brothers and sisters, and was a foster parent myself. My heart goes out to addicts though I have steered cleared of them and alcohol in my own life).


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have tried to give back by coaching. One of my "assignments" is to go after kids who are at risk and get them out on the field.

I figure if I reach just ONE kid and take him from addict/trainwreck into an athlete, I save my community a lot of suffering.

Coaching is more than just sport. Even though it has its dangers, it can save families and maybe even lives.

Your remarks on the epidemic in this country and especially your area are spot on. I remember vacationing in Maine last summer and reading about Portland ME's drug/meth/heroin problems. So disturbing.

We have those issues creeping in here, too. A guy nearby has tombstones in his front yard from kids who have died from heroin.

His "grave yard" is growing in tombstones at an alarming level.

It got to the point where neighbors complained. There was a battle at the township building as to whether he could/couldnt keep them.

They made him take them down.

At least it raised awareness.

I had no idea it was this pervasive.


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Unless you have been a foster parent, you have no idea how much abuse occurs against children in the USA today. The issue is; you just do not hear about it.

When my parents started some 30 years ago, the abuse was mostly physical abuse, today it is abuse of a different kind (if you know what I mean). Sad times.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Vol said:


> W and this bill had good intentions, but now we all know this ethanol thing is not what it was intended to be. Too many undesirable consequences when ethanol is in the storage and fuel tank. Hopefully this can change if the country decides to go another direction politically.....and hopefully the EPA will be reeled in....they are out of control. Defund them and end their overthinking.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Not sure how many people know this, but you can't buy a standard outdoor wood boiler anymore, EPA mandated that all OWB's (outdoor wood boilers) meet an emission standard now, the old standard units just can't come close so now all units that comply are gasifying units.

I installed one myself last fall as part of buying into a dealership with HeatmasterSS, drawback is you need dry wood, under 30% is good, under 20% is better, so no more throwing green wood in a stove. Bright side is they approach 80% or better efficiency, the old units were lucky to get anywhere near 40% and some were barely in the low 30% so you can (and I have) burn half as much wood and literally have zero smoke to annoy any neighbors.

I like em myself, like it better than my old one, everyone should have one, but should the government force people to buy a particular model if they want to heat with wood and an OWB? Nope, its government overreach plain and simple. Well that and revenue generation, I can still sell conventional units to be used as a strictly commercial unit, absolutely cannot hook them to a residence, if I do, looking at a $25,000 fine from the EPA for each stove, not a one time fine for being naughty. Not sure what they'll do to a homeowner that installs the wrong model on their own, I'd hate to be the guy the EPA makes an example of.

Now for the unintended consequences, or maybe it was intended as the government can't tax firewood that you cut on your own property unlike the nat gas, propane or fuel oil used instead. But the gasifying units do cost more which places a lot of people between a rock and a hard place, they might not be able to afford to keep the house as warm as they like, but also can't afford the couple extra grand that the prices went up for an EPA PHASE 2 compliant wood boiler compared to a conventional unit. It is worth the extra though, I did burn half as much this last winter, half as much wood to cut is a lot easier on my back, but the payback is a little harder to see when you just can't come up with an extra 2 grand.

Can't remember the exact numbers, but I think Heatmaster was paying about $25,000 each time a model was tested by an EPA approved lab, so if a model doesn't pass the first time, you could rack up a lot in testing costs in very short order for each model. They offer three models, one more or less a copy of the previous but larger dimensions, each still had to be tested independently.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Something else, once upon a time I was messing around with corn burners back in the day when corn was so cheap your best bet was to place it under loan at $2.02. Decided if it wasn't worth selling then might as well get some heat out of it. Also did it because somebody said I couldn't, so had to. Which is also how i built my first OWB, then another, a 25 foot chisel plow, a waste oil boiler and so on.

Anyways had a working prototype then corn finally went up and trashed the prototype. Just didn't feel right about burning food while some went without.

Basically why we still sell to Cargill even though the local ethanol plant is under new management and usually pays at least a dime more but is twice as far to haul and you have to call ahead. Supposedly all the corn we sell to Cargill in LaPaz ends up in the Carolinas for hog and chicken feed. Usually can only get three loads a day to the ethanol plant but can get six to Cargill.


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I did the same thing once with compost heat. I am not a grungy granola or anything, but on the dairy farm, it could be the middle of winter and when you stuck your hand in the silage pile it was almost unbearable. My home is 100% radiant floor heat so the idea occurred; "why not heat it by simply taking the heat from a compost pile and circulate it through my floor? Both use very low temperature heat, but in large volumes."

People from the state planning office said it could never be done, but people are in fact doing it. Here is the thing though. I live in Maine where 90% of he land base is wood, while it is possible to heat a home with compost piles, it would take me far less time to go out into the woods and cut up a few cord of firewood and generate the same number of BTU's.

Both would work, it is just that FOR ME, wood heat made more sense. For others maybe compost heat makes sense to them.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Not sure if the emerald ash borer has made it to your area yet ruttedfield but here firewood is easy to come by, ash trees are dying faster than i can cut them up.

Now only state approved firewood is allowed in the park across the road, you supposedly need a license or permit to sale "state approved" campfire wood that will be taken into the park, supposedly to help stop the spread of the ash borer. I guess since only certain wood is allowed into the park that will keep them from flying from my woods right across the road into the park. More like revenue generation is what it is as they don't give the permits away, and of course the permit gives em the right to stop in at your property and inspect what your selling.


----------

