# Problems with hydraulics/New Holland baler/JD 2640



## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

This may be stepping beyond what I can ask on this forum but I have been trying to solve a problem with a new baler that seems to be beyond my capabilities to understand.

I have a 1977 Deere 2640. I purchased a new New Holland round baler to use with this tractor. The door of the baler operates with a single hydraulic hose connection to the tractor. So the way that it operates is that it uses gravity to close the door and then spring driven latches complete the door closure process.

The problem that I have is that the door will open and it will close but the latches will not close. I connected the baler up to a friend's Deere tractor and it worked fine. I connected it to a Kubota and it works fine.

I tested my hydraulics and found that it maintained pressure after it was back to the neutral position so I had the hydraulic valve rebuilt. It now shows 0 pressure when in the neutral position but the latches still will not close. When I disconnect the hose and actually release the pressure by pushing in the ball the latch closes.

In looking at the Deere site, it shows two different part numbers for the male nipple end of the hydraulic hose. Part numbers R31665 and R27270. About the only additional information that I can find is a description of the R31665 that says "with reverser". I have no idea what that means.

I put a pioneer end VP 5060-4 on the hose. Is there a possibility that there is a different nipple that I should be using?

Any ideas at all to make this baler work with the 2640 would be greatly appreciated.


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

Sorry I can't help with your problem, but wanted to welcome ya to the site. Somebody with more hydro experience should be along in a while to help....


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

in my opinion your female end is either worn or does nor match your male end. check the type of female ends on the tractors that are working and replace yours with that type. hope this helps. gary


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks. That's kind of what I was thinking too. That was why I was trying to make sure that I had the right male end. I didn't even think about the female side since I just had that rebuilt but it may very well be worth checking into.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Thanks urednecku. I've learned a lot from this site. I've been watching it for a long time. There's a lot of wisdom on here and I really appreciate all of the insights that I've read.


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

Check the flow speed on Ur tractor as well. I'm not sure if that tractor has a hydraulic speed control or not. I'm just thinking outside the box. If Ur hydraulic flow is set too low then that might inhibit the flow back into the tractor and is slowing down the speed that the gate needs to close all the way. If Ur letting the pressure out with just the tip with no restriction and it closes then u have a restriction issue either with the coupler or the tractor. Make sure Ur couplers male and female are connected correctly. Did u tighten it to much? And smashed the opening restricting the flow?


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

CockrellHillFarms said:


> Check the flow speed on Ur tractor as well. I'm not sure if that tractor has a hydraulic speed control or not. I'm just thinking outside the box. If Ur hydraulic flow is set too low then that might inhibit the flow back into the tractor and is slowing down the speed that the gate needs to close all the way. If Ur letting the pressure out with just the tip with no restriction and it closes then u have a restriction issue either with the coupler or the tractor. Make sure Ur couplers male and female are connected correctly. Did u tighten it to much? And smashed the opening restricting the flow?


Thanks. I thought that was a great idea. I set the flow control maximum in both directions. While it runs really slow in one direction and does not allow the latches to close, the other way also does not allow the latches to close.

I'm not sure what you're saying when you're asking if I tightened it too much. I think I can answer that by saying that at first I was using a Deere male end with this problem. I then put on a pioneer end so that I could connect it to the Kubota. When connected to the Kubota the latches closed just fine. I then used an adapter to go from the pioneer end to the Deere end so I didn't change out the male end again. I connected it to the 2640 and I still get the same results as when I have the old style Deere male end.

I agree that it seems as though there is something inhibiting the flow. I can disconnect the hose and release the pressure and the latches close. Maybe this male end is really not well suited for this connection. I plan to go to the dealer and get the deere part instead of the one that I bought from the tractor supply store just to make sure that there isn't something just a bit different.

Thanks for your reply. Really good ideas...


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

A friend borrowed my JD old seed drill and the hyd fittings would not work on his Massey tractor.
Have you tried using an end you know works well on your tractor?

My second option would be to replace the cylinders with a double acting cylinder. I know that would be a pain because you would need to run another hyd line.

I do not remember if the 40 series tractors had open or closed hydraulics. If they had closed center hydraulics then that may be part of the problem.
Does your tractor have a "float" position on the hyd control lever? My older tractors do not and it is a pain to use cylinders with one hose.

There will be someone on here who knows the ins and outs of the 40 series tractor and point you in the right direction. I am just thinking out loud.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

This tractor like the vast majority of the older JD's uses a closed center hydraulic system. it seems that there may be something causing the cylinder to remain pressuried to some small extent and not allow the door to close fully. It makes me wonder if there is some residual pressure in the system, you can T in a pressure guage with the door cylinder and make sure that it reads 0 or very close to it when the gate is lowered. 
If for some reason there is high backpressure in the hydraulic system such as a return filter with high restriction, this will cause you to have a small amount of pressure in the system. If your control valve has a float position this should allow you to acheive 0psi.
Another possible cause of this pressure in the lines is a worn hydraulic valve spool. This is simple to check, plug in two couplers with a pressure gauge in each, when the lever is moved in either direction, one gauge should read what the system pressure is, and the other must show 0 psi. If there is a leaking spool it will slowly build up from 0, the longer it is held over system relief the more oil will be allowed to bypass into the return side (which in your case could hold the gate up slightly).
I can't tell you for sure but these are my thoughts and what I would look at first.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Toyes Hill Angus said:


> This tractor like the vast majority of the older JD's uses a closed center hydraulic system. it seems that there may be something causing the cylinder to remain pressuried to some small extent and not allow the door to close fully. It makes me wonder if there is some residual pressure in the system, you can T in a pressure guage with the door cylinder and make sure that it reads 0 or very close to it when the gate is lowered.
> If for some reason there is high backpressure in the hydraulic system such as a return filter with high restriction, this will cause you to have a small amount of pressure in the system. If your control valve has a float position this should allow you to acheive 0psi.
> Another possible cause of this pressure in the lines is a worn hydraulic valve spool. This is simple to check, plug in two couplers with a pressure gauge in each, when the lever is moved in either direction, one gauge should read what the system pressure is, and the other must show 0 psi. If there is a leaking spool it will slowly build up from 0, the longer it is held over system relief the more oil will be allowed to bypass into the return side (which in your case could hold the gate up slightly).
> I can't tell you for sure but these are my thoughts and what I would look at first.


I went out and got the gauges to do the testing that you recommended. I thought that would be a really good idea. With two gauges one goes to 2000 or so pounds and the other goes to 0 until I reverse the flow and the exact opposite happens. Looks like that is good.

I then put the T in the connection and found that it does go to 0 both in the down position and in the float position. Still the latches do not close.

This makes no sense to me. The one thing that I found is that I can go back and pull the latch down with the lever in the full down position. With the lever in the float position, I cannot. I don't know if that says anything but it's more information.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> A friend borrowed my JD old seed drill and the hyd fittings would not work on his Massey tractor.
> Have you tried using an end you know works well on your tractor?
> 
> My second option would be to replace the cylinders with a double acting cylinder. I know that would be a pain because you would need to run another hyd line.
> ...


The only end that I use on a 3 point disk mower works ok. That's probably a bit different in that there's a lot of weight bringing that mower down so it probably doesn't need any pushing pressure. I have tried multiple male ends and they all give me the same results.

It appears that there may be dual action cylinders on the baler already. There is a hole that appears that it would take a hose at the opposite end of each of the cylinders. That may be the answer to this. It doesn't look like it would be too much work just to add the connections to the other side.

Thanks for your input.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

Does the gate close slowly with your tractor on the baler when compared to the Kubota? Also by what you wrote above you are using a pioneer to JD adapter to fit your tractor, does this sound right? If that is right, I have to assume that the JD end uses a ball bearing for a poppet on the end of the fitting. The problem seems to follow that coupler, if everything checks out with the tractor I would start to look into changing that coupler out for one that uses a pin-type coupler, they allow for much more flow because they push the seats farther apart. In some cases, for example a newer tractor with high flow can jam the poppet on the return hose end of the tail wheel of a plow.
It is hard to say for sure what the trouble is but I think I would start there since it is the cheapest option.
Edit- I did not see the post directly above this one, so I see that you have tried multiple ends. Did they all have the round ball at the end of the coupler or the pin type? Also if you are using an adapter, it would be much less resistance to simply put the proper end on the hose if this is the tractor that will be running the baler.


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## stan (Jul 6, 2009)

I think that JD closed center hydraulics use a seperate "charge pump"to maintain about 100psi on the inlet to the main pump. this keeps the pump from cavitating or drawing a vacumn that causes air in the oil resulting in eccesive heating of the hydraulic system. When oil is compressed with entrained air, the air bubbles explode creating the heat. This is a very good system however the oil returning from remote cylinders might be seeing this as backpressure. When using hydrualic motors, JD used to recommend a seperate return connection on the filter housing to keep from having backpressure that would blow the shaft seal on the hydraulic motor. This won't help you though as it is only a 1 direction flow.You might have to use a remote mounted valve with the return through the filter. The other option would be the double acting cylinder. 
The guage tee'd into the line should tell you if there is any back pressure, however a guage that reads high enough that it won't explode when opening, will not read the low presure very accurate. I suspect that even 50 psi might prevent your latches from closing.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Do you have more than one SCV on your tractor? If so, try the other one. If not, then it sounds like you need to maybe change it out. If it's been rebuilt and is not up to speed on your disc mower, sounds like somethings wrong with it. I would get the female end to fit a pioneer tip. Mike


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Toyes Hill Angus said:


> Does the gate close slowly with your tractor on the baler when compared to the Kubota? Also by what you wrote above you are using a pioneer to JD adapter to fit your tractor, does this sound right? If that is right, I have to assume that the JD end uses a ball bearing for a poppet on the end of the fitting. The problem seems to follow that coupler, if everything checks out with the tractor I would start to look into changing that coupler out for one that uses a pin-type coupler, they allow for much more flow because they push the seats farther apart. In some cases, for example a newer tractor with high flow can jam the poppet on the return hose end of the tail wheel of a plow.
> It is hard to say for sure what the trouble is but I think I would start there since it is the cheapest option.
> Edit- I did not see the post directly above this one, so I see that you have tried multiple ends. Did they all have the round ball at the end of the coupler or the pin type? Also if you are using an adapter, it would be much less resistance to simply put the proper end on the hose if this is the tractor that will be running the baler.


Actually the gate goes down quicker when it's connected to the 2640 than to the Kubota. I normally use the JD male end. I put the pioneer end on so that I could use it on my Kubota and then used an adapter to connect to the 2640. I get the same results no matter which way I do it. As far as the pin, I believe that all have been the ball bearing type. I plan to go to the Deere dealer today to see what they can provide for different ends. I'll see if they have a pin type of coupler. Thanks for your help.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Do you have more than one SCV on your tractor? If so, try the other one. If not, then it sounds like you need to maybe change it out. If it's been rebuilt and is not up to speed on your disc mower, sounds like somethings wrong with it. I would get the female end to fit a pioneer tip. Mike


I have two SCVs on the tractor. Both give the same results.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

stan said:


> I think that JD closed center hydraulics use a seperate "charge pump"to maintain about 100psi on the inlet to the main pump. this keeps the pump from cavitating or drawing a vacumn that causes air in the oil resulting in eccesive heating of the hydraulic system. When oil is compressed with entrained air, the air bubbles explode creating the heat. This is a very good system however the oil returning from remote cylinders might be seeing this as backpressure. When using hydrualic motors, JD used to recommend a seperate return connection on the filter housing to keep from having backpressure that would blow the shaft seal on the hydraulic motor. This won't help you though as it is only a 1 direction flow.You might have to use a remote mounted valve with the return through the filter. The other option would be the double acting cylinder.
> The guage tee'd into the line should tell you if there is any back pressure, however a guage that reads high enough that it won't explode when opening, will not read the low presure very accurate. I suspect that even 50 psi might prevent your latches from closing.


Much of what you're saying rings true from the experiences. As I think about it when I leave the control lever all the way down and then shut the tractor off, the latches close. That to me indicates a maintained pressure even after the rebuild. I did put a gauge tee'd into the line and it shows that it gets down near 0 and I was reading that as 0. You're right, the gauge goes to 5000 pounds so at the bottom end it's pretty hard to tell if it truely gets to 0. I'm thinking that it might not.

I'm going to print your answer out and take it with me to the dealer to have a discussion about it. You would have thought that when I explained this to them they would have given me this kind of information instead of going ahead and creating a pretty big bill for a rebuild.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm not familiar with your model tractor, but you might dig a manual out and see if any adjustments are required for use with single acting cylinders. The older Olivers had a screw or two that had to be turned in or out when going from double acting to single acting cylinders. If you didn't adjust correctly some real strange things could happen.


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## wheezie (Aug 5, 2011)

if it means anything to you, I have problems with older John Deere tractors also, the newer jds doesnt have many problems with the hydraulic problems that I have seen, the older ones seem to test my patience!


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

As mentioned, the old JDs definately use a charge pump it the rear end to supply oil to the front, main pump. I don't know what the charge pressure is, but lets say it is 100psi, also lets say that the gate cylinders are 2.5", pi X r X r (3.14 X 1.25 X 1.25) then multiply by the pressure to get force. I came up with 490 lbs.(per cylinder) If it is possible that this pressure was getting to the outlets, I agree that this would be a problem, but in float with the tractor shut off this will not be a factor, so try that out and see if it latches!


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Toyes, you're definitely smarter than I am. I think what you're saying is to put the hydraulics in float and shut the tractor off. Yes the latches do close.

I did talk with someone from the Deere dealership who tells me that the tractor hydraulics are designed to maintain 30 pounds of pressure. That doesn't seem like too much but apparently it is enough to keep the springs from pulling the latches closed.

I am also now getting some interest from New Holland. What I don't understand is that if this is the way that the Deere hydraulics work, I would think that they would have a fix for this by now. Somehow with tech support I'm the first one to run into problems...

Anyway, it would seem that the easiest way to resolve the problem might be to increase the size of the spring. I've asked New Holland about that but have not yet gotten back an answer.

I really appreciate everyone's ideas on this. I just hope this works before it's time to bale.


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## stan (Jul 6, 2009)

tha, I am glad someone at JD confirmed the maintained pressure. Our steffen bale accumalators also can have problems when connected to these tractors. The ground drive clutch can fail to release to disingage the unloader chain especially when the oil is cold. Stan


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## Farmineer (Mar 5, 2012)

The valve needs to return the oil to the rockshaft housing to eliminate backpressure. I believe that depending on how the tractor was ordered, it can return the oil with no backpressure or some 15 - 60 psi which would act as charge oil for the front pump. The charge oil would give you more capacity to run a motor. Look at the valve under the seat and see if there is a short hose , it has the squeeze clamps on it if I remember correctly, hose is maybe 2 inches long. If the left valve (assuming you have 2) does not have a short hose between it and the rockshaft housing, you have backpressure and it will be hard to operate a single acting cylinder with a light load. If there is a hose, plug you door hose into that valve. You should be able to configure the tractor to work.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Farmineer, I checked for a hose under the seat and there was none. What you are describing sounds very much like what the Deere dealer was telling me that I would have to do to the tractor to eliminate the backpressure. I'm somewhat shy of having them do more work because of the cost and time lost in service to the tractor the last time. I'm hoping that New Holland has run into this and has an answer for me although I haven't heard back from them for a while. I plan check with New Holland again early next week to see if they have come up with anything that might be easier to do with the Baler.

Thanks for your input. That validates what the dealer is telling me. I really appreciate it.


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## rhh1127 (Sep 7, 2011)

what baler do you have I have never seen one with single hydraulic most need pressure to hold lock closed


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

It's New Holland's Roll-Belt 450.


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## thall83313 (Jul 15, 2011)

Good news. I got the latches working today. First I want to thank everyone who offered suggestions and information for my tractor and baler. I am awed by the experience on this website. It's been a great learning tool for me.

So, what'd it take to fix the problem?

When this first happened last year, one of the first things that I did was to tighten up the springs. That didn't seem to make any difference but after evaluating the information from everyone that still seemed like the best thing to do. After all it was only 30 pounds of sustained pressure.

I started with one side, I found that there are no grease points on any of the pivot points and it also seemed like the latches may have been binding a bit. I took the latch off of the baler which entailed disconnecting one end of the hydraulic cylinder; taking the latch off of the pivot point and removing the spring. I found that once I removed the spring I could notice that there was a lot of movement on the latch. In looking closer the pivot pin for the latch was welded onto the baler and then a washer was placed up against the weld. They had ground off most of the weld pretty well but there was one side of it that wasn't ground down and didn't allow the washer to sit on the pin straight. I ground that down, put the washer back on, it now laid flat. I also looked at the pivot hole on the latch. There was a lot of chatter in the bore so I smoothed that down as much as I could without increasing the size of the hole. I greased it all pretty well and put the latch back on.

I also saw that there were two washers on the connection pin for the cylinder but both washer were on one side of the cylinder with no washer on the other side at all. That may have been a spacing issue but again it seemed to bind on the side with no washer so I removed one of the washers from one side of the cylinder and put it on the other. Again, greased it well and it seemed to be ok.

On the spring adjustment there was only about an inch of thread to tighten the spring. I thought that odd since there was about six inches that was just wasted on the adjusting rod. I put a couple of spacers on that adjusting rod below the nut so that I could tighten the spring some more. Tightened it all back up and fired up the tractor, raised the gate, dropped the gate and the latch closed!!!!!

I did all of the same things to the other side and that side started working as well.

I still have some concerns that the spring will ultimately stretch to the point where it needs to be tightened some more and there is no additional adjustment room. I still think that that the best alternative is to put two way cylinders on there as some of you suggested. Just one of the questions that I have in to New Holland for which I haven't gotten an answer.

I know that all of these things had varying impact on the final outcome. Some probably had no impact at all, maybe one actually solved the problem. I know it wasn't just tightening the spring because I did that first and it didn't resolve the problem. I don't know if this is the way that these balers always go together, you can draw your own conclusions.

My biggest disappointment is that I don't seem to be able to get any help at all from the manufacturer or the dealer. I ask a question, they say that they'll get back to me and then nothing...

I know that there are many of you out there who believe that New Holland provides a great machine. On the other hand I've also seen where others didn't get a reply or any satisfaction at all from New Holland and were very disappointed in them. I guess at this point I fall into that category. On their website they say how important customer satisfaction is but I have yet to see where it really plays out.

I know this isn't their top of the line baler, it's actually their bottom of the line round baler. When I bought it I told them what tractor I was hooking it to and if they would have told me that the baler I was buying really doesn't work, I wouldn't have bought it. Oh well, sorry for the rant.

The main thing that I wanted to do was to thank everyone who gave me help, had information and helped to work through this.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I am glad to know you have it in working order.
Also glad to know the remedy process. I have been wondering how this would play out.
Thanks for the update.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

> I don't know if this is the way that these balers always go together, you can draw your own conclusions.


After years of working on 2 totally different New Holland balers I have come to the conclusion that their basic design concepts are good, somtimes brilliant; however, in the process of designing the individual components there seems to be a lack of attention to detail. And then there is the manufacturing process . . .


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

It seems like farm equipment manufacturers are like factories building cars. They have good days and bad days too with some lemons along the way. I have seen it with different ones over the years. Just glad that you got it figured out and it's all part of the learning process. It makes you think. It is very difficult to try to help someone over the internet when you can't see it and feel it. There are so many things that can be wrong but usually it's something very simple.


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