# Winter killed new stands of grass, now what?



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

My new seedings of grass that I planted late last fall did not fare so well. I knew I was planting late but in our normal winter I think it would have been okay. Just as soon as the seedlings were germinating it turned cold and stayed cold all winter with the ground staying froze for extended periods and lots of days where it would freeze at night and thaw during the day which heaved my young seedlings out of the ground where they dried up. Now that we had some warm weather last week which started getting things to grow and green up I now seen what I am left with.

I have 30 acres that for sure will have to replanted....less than 10 percent made it. I do have one 8 acre field of straight timothy that has too much that lived that I hate to replant it but not enough to leave it and have a stand. It is hard to say what percent lived because it is in patches where it looks like most of it came through and then patches where almost none of it lived but I would say half of the field has a stand. To add to my dilemma since it had not much holding the ground over the winter with the heavy rains I have some erosion issues that is going to make the ground rough to make hay on.

I have been going through the options and these are the one I have come up with.

Rework the ground to smooth out and replant with orchardgrass since I don't think timothy can be planted in the spring here. The downside to this is I'm needing the timothy hay.

No till red clover into the field to fill the bare areas and get my hay this summer then replant this fall. Not sure if red clover timothy mix will be good hay?

No till timothy to fill in the bare areas hoping it will come up enough to give me a cutting of timothy hay and if it dies in the summer heat replant in the fall.

Which one of these would be my best option or I'm open to hearing other options too.

Thanks, Hayden


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If you actually have a 50% stand of timothy in the 8 acre field, I like either the clover as a one season emergency measure if the ground is too rough to be haying for several years, or the orchard grass if it's not too rough. If you choose a leafy enough orchard grass and have that high of a timothy percentage, you might still get timothy money even though it's a 50-50 mix. If this worked you wouldn't have to start over this fall with new establishment costs so soon.

On the other hand, maybe you could interseed more timothy, but that's your climate and not for me to understand.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> If you actually have a 50% stand of timothy in the 8 acre field, I like either the clover as a one season emergency measure if the ground is too rough to be haying for several years, or the orchard grass if it's not too rough. If you choose a leafy enough orchard grass and have that high of a timothy percentage, you might still get timothy money even though it's a 50-50 mix. If this worked you wouldn't have to start over this fall with new establishment costs so soon.
> On the other hand, maybe you could interseed more timothy, but that's your climate and not for me to understand.


 I have never planted timothy in the spring here but my understanding is that it will grow if you get it out early enough but after you take first cut off and it turns hot 9 times out of 10 it will die since it did not have all winter to get roots down deep. I am on the southern edge where timothy can be grown.

I had thought about no tilling orchard grass into it since it has a better chance being sown in the spring and just have a mix but orchard grass seed is more costly than timothy and I hate to plant orchard grass and then rework the ground this fall if the field is rougher than I can tolerate.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> I hate to plant orchard grass and then rework the ground this fall if the field is rougher than I can tolerate.


There's your answer. If you already have an inkling that it's going to be too rough, choose the most temporary solution.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I'm with hiTech, if it is too rough for you this fall then go temp, but also agree with you on not wanting to seed Gothenburg plow it up in fall. Tim-red clover was a mainstay when I was a kid, I stopped doing the clover because of my horse customers. I have a 7ac field of new Tim that I am going to overseed with brome for the same reason-winter kill. If not thick enough after that I wii plant teff and do Tim over this fall


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

How rough are the washes in the field? Would you be able to repair them individually as opposed to starting over this fall?

I have a few washed out areas that I am going to repair and leave the rest of the field alone.

Does Millet do well in your area and is there a demand for Millet hay? That is what I have planted to fill in bare spots in the past.

My fall planting also had a rough go of it. I have a good enough stand to make. Like you, I did not get enough growth to hold the soil. I bet there are a lot of people dealing with the same issues after the winter we had.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

You might consider frost seeding timothy, maybe 8-10 lbs/ac, over it. It will be just slightly behind what you planted last fall.

I've had a lot of luck with frost seeding hereabouts. And now's the time to do it!

Ralph


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> How rough are the washes in the field? Would you be able to repair them individually as opposed to starting over this fall?
> I have a few washed out areas that I am going to repair and leave the rest of the field alone.
> Does Millet do well in your area and is there a demand for Millet hay? That is what I have planted to fill in bare spots in the past.
> 
> My fall planting also had a rough go of it. I have a good enough stand to make. Like you, I did not get enough growth to hold the soil. I bet there are a lot of people dealing with the same issues after the winter we had.


 Millet will grow good in my area but the order I have for this timothy hay will not want it mixed with millet.....I'm trying to figure out if I could get by with some red clover in the hay....but baling it scares me because a couple years ago I had a small patch of grass that I had mixed with clover and I ended up baling the clover when the leaves were too dry and it looked like crap in the bale.

There are three large washouts that I could fix individually but there are many small ones that would pretty much require me to rework most of the whole field. If I fixed the big ones I could get by for a year or two but I don't want to plant something that is going to be there for quite a while like orchard grass without getting it smooth or I know I will regret it every time I make hay.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> You might consider frost seeding timothy, maybe 8-10 lbs/ac, over it. It will be just slightly behind what you planted last fall.
> 
> I've had a lot of luck with frost seeding hereabouts. And now's the time to do it!
> 
> Ralph


 I'm not sure but I'm thinking it may be too late to frost seed here as I don't really expect the ground to freeze again to get the seed in the ground.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Maybe a two-year ryegrass or something?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Hayden, If I were you, I would no till timothy over top of what you have. Timothy will fool you sometimes. I have seen it look like it is dead, and then green up and take off. Dig a little piece up and bring it inside and see what it does. Mixing clover with timothy will make it hard to bale in my opinion. The clover does not dry as quick and can delay your baling and a lot of people don't like it because of horses getting the slobbers. Don't worry about the washouts until it gets dry enough to work. Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

The good news about timothy is that it doesn't have to be very deep. Maybe an 1/8th of inch. Just a couple of freeze/thaw cycles would be enough.

If your ground is not very rough, I think I would try it rather than having to wait until next year. Timothy seed is pretty cheap. It also depends on how much of your stand got hurt. If it's 50% or more that's good, the cost and time of reseeding could get kind of expensive.

Like all farming, it's a crap shoot. Hope this helps and let us know what you do.

Ralph


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Hayden, If I were you, I would no till timothy over top of what you have. Timothy will fool you sometimes. I have seen it look like it is dead, and then green up and take off. Dig a little piece up and bring it inside and see what it does. Mixing clover with timothy will make it hard to bale in my opinion. The clover does not dry as quick and can delay your baling and a lot of people don't like it because of horses getting the slobbers. Don't worry about the washouts until it gets dry enough to work. Mike


 I really wanted to try to no till timothy into what I already have because I have a for sure market for the hay. I just was not sure if timothy could be planted in the spring successfully or if it would die when it gets hot this summer. Timothy seed is cheap enough that if I find that I can't stand the roughness of the field I could rework and replant the ground this fall. What is already there greened up nicely with the warm weather last week.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> I really wanted to try to no till timothy into what I already have because I have a for sure market for the hay. I just was not sure if timothy could be planted in the spring successfully or if it would die when it gets hot this summer. Timothy seed is cheap enough that if I find that I can't stand the roughness of the field I could rework and replant the ground this fall. What is already there greened up nicely with the warm weather last week.


The newly planted Timothy probably won't make it to fall Hayden....but it will give you crop for this year...and who knows....if its a wet summer again it very well could make it. Come fall, if your wash areas are not real bad you can go over them with a roto-tiller or a chisel plow set shallow to smooth things up and then replant. If the ground is soft now, you could broadcast the seed and then roll with a packer.

Regards, Mike


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't know about others, but the timothy around here does not last like it used to. About the most that I can get out of a seeding is 2 good years. Then I no-till OG into it. Is everyone else seeing the same thing or is it a here thing? By the third year, it may be only a half a stand. Mike


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> I don't know about others, but the timothy around here does not last like it used to. About the most that I can get out of a seeding is 2 good years. Then I no-till OG into it. Is everyone else seeing the same thing or is it a here thing? By the third year, it may be only a half a stand. Mike


Do you have fairly good luck no tilling OG into existing stands? If so are you doing it in the late summer early fall? I only do hay so I have no rotation.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> I don't know about others, but the timothy around here does not last like it used to. About the most that I can get out of a seeding is 2 good years. Then I no-till OG into it. Is everyone else seeing the same thing or is it a here thing? By the third year, it may be only a half a stand. Mike


I'm wondering if its not lasting because Timothy needs a good stubble height to re grow. Disc mowers generally have a lower cut, than say a sickle bar. Disc mowers now are more prevalent than sickle bars. When I was growing up I remember our Timothy stands coming back year after year, cut with a SP sickle. Just a thought...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I think Timothy lasts much longer in the Northern reaches of our country....in the Southeast it seems Timothy does not last nearly as long due to the summer heat and it always seems that we will have at least one drought type period sometime after first cutting and fall. You are right about mowing height....3.5" to 4" should be the minimum mow height....and I think most folks on this site do cut that high. We only get one cutting of Timothy a season here....I have never gotten two cuttings in one season in my lifetime here. As Hayden mentioned earlier, he and I both are on Southernmost reaches for Timothy growth....and as NDVA mentioned....it is fairly shortlived. Some of the prettiest Timothy I ever saw in the East came out of New Hampshire...came off a friend of mines family farm.

Regards, Mike


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

All good info! I've been toying with frost seeding on a 4 acre field, but was fearing the already established OG wouldn't let it take. 
Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

I no t ill my og any time after August 15. Always have good luck with it. I never plant it after October 15. I do cut my hay higher than usual. I use a lift kit made by JD that raises my cutter bar higher than what is standard. The normal 3 settings that are standard are too close for me. I guess my height is around 5 inches and really helps for good regrowth and doesn't injure the plant. We also never get but 1 cutting on Timothy here. Until I found this forum, I didn't know that anybody got 2 cuttings. Mike


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> I no t ill my og any time after August 15. Always have good luck with it. I never plant it after October 15. I do cut my hay higher than usual. I use a lift kit made by JD that raises my cutter bar higher than what is standard. The normal 3 settings that are standard are too close for me. I guess my height is around 5 inches and really helps for good regrowth and doesn't injure the plant. We also never get but 1 cutting on Timothy here. Until I found this forum, I didn't know that anybody got 2 cuttings. Mike


Mike,
I wasn't saying you in particularl are cutting to short, I certainly didn't mean to come off that way. I too don't understand why Timothy doesn't come back like it used to. I'm still using a sickle, (unfortunately ) but I do see a lot of other hay producers in the area cutting their fields down like a gulf course with a disc.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I'm thinking what I may try to do is fix the big washouts by running a moldboard plow on each side to fill in, roto tilling to smooth and no till timothy into what I already have. This would give me my timothy hay and then next fall I could rework the ground and replant. If the timothy would happen to make it through the summer I guess I could tolerate one more year of the rough ground then it sounds like by then I would need to be replanting anyway.

I wonder though if I wouldn't be better off just killing the timothy off after first cut and planting a summer annual hay crop....I guess I could give teff one more shot. I wonder if I could no till soybeans after the timothy is baled?

The other thing which I have not ruled out yet is I could just go ahead and rework the ground now and plant orchard grass. The only downside is I just would not have any timothy hay.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Ds, no problem. I did not take it as you were talking about me. I see the same thing around here. They scalp it so close that you can see the white of the stalks. I just cut mine abnormally high and end up usually getting 4 cuttings compared to other people getting 2. It's just my way of doing things. No offense taken. Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Vol said:


> I think Timothy lasts much longer in the Northern reaches of our country....in the Southeast it seems Timothy does not last nearly as long due to the summer heat and it always seems that we will have at least one drought type period sometime after first cutting and fall. You are right about mowing height....3.5" to 4" should be the minimum mow height....and I think most folks on this site do cut that high. We only get one cutting of Timothy a season here....I have never gotten two cuttings in one season in my lifetime here. As Hayden mentioned earlier, he and I both are on Southernmost reaches for Timothy growth....and as NDVA mentioned....it is fairly shortlived. Some of the prettiest Timothy I ever saw in the East came out of New Hampshire...came off a friend of mines family farm.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Ok, let's see if everyone is awake- Mike we are on the southern end of the timothy growing area, even here in the northern Shenandoah Valley. But it has gotten worse since your buddy Al started talking about global warming. See, it is not just the polar bears that feel it, it is the timothy as well... 

I also agree with you on the cutting height issue, plan to cut all of my hay this year with the higher height that I used for Teff and see what happens. The NH has an adjustment in the tilt cylinder that allows for a fair amount of adjustment-at the high setting you can get around 4" stubble so that should be far better for both og and tim than the scalp setting. Too bad you have to use that lower setting for lodged material. r


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Hayman, didn't you know that it's global change and not global warming anymore. Al has been back pedaling for a couple years. I read an article last week that the polar ice cap has grown like a half million squares miles in the last few years and now we are having global cooling!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayman1 said:


> Ok, let's see if everyone is awake- Mike we are on the southern end of the timothy growing area, even here in the northern Shenandoah Valley. But it has gotten worse since your buddy Al started talking about global warming. See, it is not just the polar bears that feel it, it is the timothy as well...
> 
> I also agree with you on the cutting height issue, plan to cut all of my hay this year with the higher height that I used for Teff and see what happens. The NH has an adjustment in the tilt cylinder that allows for a fair amount of adjustment-at the high setting you can get around 4" stubble so that should be far better for both og and tim than the scalp setting. Too bad you have to use that lower setting for lodged material. r


I agree....its them dang liberals....they are coming at night time when we are asleep and they are extracting all of our potash out of the ground causing our stands of grass to experience drought kill when it gets hot and dry. Just let me catch al and his cronies some night....... 

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Full disclosure: I am not a liberal, not a conservative, am a scientist, have been to Churchill CA and seen the polar bear dismay, am not a CFOA (for those of you who are slower-that is a charter friend of Al's) did not buy or have I read his book, but climate change is real and if you have not figured it out you are in trouble. See, the farmer should be on the leading edge of seeing this. Not a sermon, just a thought. We are in for more extremes which is what you get with climate change (I personally don't give a rat pellet what you call it) and I don't think it is a WMD but it is real and we should be aware of it. That is my 2 cents worth which I am entitled to for signing up on Haytalk. Now , were going to hear about entitlements.... :lol:


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I am entitled to warmer weather.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayman1 said:


> Full disclosure: I am not a liberal, not a conservative, am a scientist, have been to Churchill CA and seen the polar bear dismay, am not a CFOA (for those of you who are slower-that is a charter friend of Al's) did not buy or have I read his book, but climate change is real and if you have not figured it out you are in trouble. See, the farmer should be on the leading edge of seeing this. Not a sermon, just a thought. We are in for more extremes which is what you get with climate change (I personally don't give a rat pellet what you call it) and I don't think it is a WMD but it is real and we should be aware of it. That is my 2 cents worth which I am entitled to for signing up on Haytalk. Now , were going to hear about entitlements.... :lol:


Hayman, I am interested in what you have observed in your area that makes you feel that the changes you are experiencing are different than historically?

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> I am entitled to warmer weather.


Me too, especially this past winter.

I should have taken out insurance against the cold. I feel I should be as entitled as the libs.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Ds, no problem. I did not take it as you were talking about me. I see the same thing around here. They scalp it so close that you can see the white of the stalks. I just cut mine abnormally high and end up usually getting 4 cuttings compared to other people getting 2. It's just my way of doing things. No offense taken. Mike


 Mike, what do you have to do to get 4 cuttings of orchard grass? How much nutrients do you apply and when? My best field last year I did get three cuttings....1st in May, 2nd in August, 3rd in October. I was very pleased with 3 cuts but would love to get 4.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Mike, what do you have to do to get 4 cuttings of orchard grass? How much nutrients do you apply and when? My best field last year I did get three cuttings....1st in May, 2nd in August, 3rd in October. I was very pleased with 3 cuts but would love to get 4.


Cline- that is us here on OG-if we are lucky and get first cutting May 15-25 and then get an inch or so of rain in the following two weeks we get at least two cuttings occasionally 3 but the 2nd and 3rd don't produce enough bales to justify the fuel cost but you have to cut to control sandbriars and milkweed. I am going to a higher stubble height this year so maybe that will help.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Vol said:


> Hayman, I am interested in what you have observed in your area that makes you feel that the changes you are experiencing are different than historically?
> 
> Regards, Mike


Mike-

I am a scientist but that science is agronomy-I am a dirt scientist and as part of my career, I did solid waste so I became a trash scientist. Based my career experiences, what we KNOW is often not what actually is no matter how hard we cling to it.

I just happen to be convinced that taking controled measurements of things enables one to to make better analysis and better decisiions. That said, climate is glacial in scale-a few years does not matter. My short life of 65 years gives me no edge on history. I was not around in the 1880s (the little ice age) when so many record cold temps were set or when the great influenza epidemic was going to wipe out the world etc etc. We look at our immediate situation and think this or that. However, from participation in a lot of crop yield research plots I know that things are not always as they appear and progress and improvements sometimes come from the strangest places. I also know when I run multiple analysis on costs of my operation and look at yield by field by input costs that my results are often not what "I know them to be". That said, I don't want to get into a climate change debate on this forum-I was having a little fun. I also don't want to get into a debate on evolution... Its about the same.

However, when I was a kid we had a saying-it is too cold to snow. Translation-when we got temps in the mid 20s or lower it was from an Alberta clipper with no moisture. All our snow came in March from carolina coastal lows at 32 degrees. Now those systems are in the minority and we get major events regularly in colder temperatures while there are much warmer temps at the same time in normally colder areas.

Then there is the timothy and og persistance thing. I remember much better summer survival rates when I was a teenager. Those are just things I saw but have no centuries long context to relate them too.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Mike, what do you have to do to get 4 cuttings of orchard grass? How much nutrients do you apply and when? My best field last year I did get three cuttings....1st in May, 2nd in August, 3rd in October. I was very pleased with 3 cuts but would love to get 4.


By cutting my hay higher, the regrowth is a lot quicker. As you know Hayden, everything depends on the weather. I'm not saying that I get 4 cuttings every single year, but more likely than not. My last cutting is around the end of Sept./first of Oct. and is always the prettiest and softest hay of the year. I start cutting early to help control any possible weeds and everything we do as farmers are weather dependent.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Well i like timothy it makes good feed. I prefer it in a mix rather than a straight stand. Usually take first cutting in June if its a pure stand of timothy and if it gets hot and dry it won't make a good second cutting and ends up getting weeds in it or other grasses take over. Last year it was cool and wet enough we were able to take some second cutting off the pure timothy that doesn't happen very often. I like to use it in mixes for added feed value.

Cline i would leave it make what you can then start over this fall


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> By cutting my hay higher, the regrowth is a lot quicker. As you know Hayden, everything depends on the weather. I'm not saying that I get 4 cuttings every single year, but more likely than not. My last cutting is around the end of Sept./first of Oct. and is always the prettiest and softest hay of the year. I start cutting early to help control any possible weeds and everything we do as farmers are weather dependent.


 Mike, how much nitrogen do you generally apply to your orchard grass.....single or multiple applications? In an average year what type of yield do you generally expect? I cut about 3.5 to 4 inches high....is this high enough?


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