# 2016 National Agricultural Classification Survey



## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

I currently have ZERO plans on filling this out. Of course, we are coerced into doing this by being threatened with a fine.

Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing. But frankly, as I review the United States Constitution, I find absolutely no authority to establish the USDA in the first place. I know, I know, the USDA does some really awesome things like giving money to beginning lesbian farmers and paying people to not grow anything, but I just don't want to be bothered.

Goliath, meet David.

The reason I'm posting this is because, while my initial reaction is to tell them to stick it, if there is a compelling reason why I should fill this out and send it in, I'm willing to listen.

Your thoughts?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I think if you will read carefully that you will find that the response is "voluntary"....or that is the way it was recently cited. I have not gotten mine yet.

Regards, Mike


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Not this one. It's mandatory. Or so they think.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Says you have to fill it out, doesn't say how honest, straight forward you have to be. I'd be as general and vague as I could be... they want numbers, they'd get a range of numbers.


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## Widairy (Jan 1, 2016)

IF I bother with any surveys from the USDA they get some really interesting numbers. 2$ an acre rent, 80000 acres of corn, paying 3$ a bale for custom hired baling....You get the idea...


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Oh, I see what you guys are getting at. But I looked up the federal law numbers they have listed on the actual survey form. Pretty interesting. What I'm looking at for not completing the survey is a $100 fine. But if I falsify anything, it's a $500 fine!

Of those two choices, I'm going with Option A !!!!


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

I'm wondering if sometime ago you filled out a USDA form saying you were a "producer."


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

gosh said:


> I currently have ZERO plans on filling this out. Of course, we are coerced into doing this by being threatened with a fine.
> 
> Maybe I'm making a big deal out of nothing. But frankly, as I review the United States Constitution, I find absolutely no authority to establish the USDA in the first place. I know, I know, the USDA does some really awesome things like giving money to beginning lesbian farmers and paying people to not grow anything, but I just don't want to be bothered.
> 
> ...


I agree... completely useless waste of time and any information they obtain is only going to be used against the average farmer... they never use anything in there for our benefit... only to figure out how to screw the little guy even more.

I decided a long time ago to refuse to participate in any of these stupid gubmint surveys and reports and crap. Used to have TASS (not the old Soviet state news agency, this was the Texas Ag Statistics Service, but both were about the same usefulness and trustworthiness IMHO) calling me all the time wanting to know this or that about the farms, crops, hay, cattle, calves, etc. etc. etc. Finally told them that was all "privileged information" and NOTDB (none of their [email protected] business). Ford and Chevy don't divulge their plans for new vehicles, new technology, and their production plans for all the world to see-- they want to keep their competitors and suppliers in the dark, so that they can get the best deals possible... if their steel suppliers knew that Ford or GM were planning on making a huge production run of some specific vehicle, they'd run up the price on the steel they'd need to make them. If their competitors at other vehicle manufacturers knew what they were coming out with next (specifically), they'd "head them off at the pass" and come out with something similar before they did, to cut into their sales... Same thing with farming, IMHO... the less the big companies know about what I'm (and everybody else) is doing, THE BETTER IT IS FOR ME.

I will never for the life of me understand WHY these farmers all cooperate with these USDA "planting intentions" surveys and crop reports... ALL that information is used to SCREW the farmer-- if planting intentions of corn goes up, where does the price of corn seed and specific chemicals used in corn production go?? Nowhere but up from what I've seen. If crop conditions are good, where does the price go?? Down the toilet, that's where, unless there's some HUGE shortage driving the market. Basically, farmers would all be better off telling these idiots the EXACT OPPOSITE of what they really plan to do or how things really are... of course that's dishonest and I can see people having a problem with that. BUT, telling them "that's confidential business information-- I will not divulge it" certainly isn't, and it'd make these idiots think twice about what they're doing and why. WHY does the gubmint need to be the collector and disseminator of all this information anyway?? All it does is help the big agribiz's to cheat the farmer, from what I can see. And, of course, it's also used by the regulators and gubmint representatives to pass new regulations and laws that make it harder and more expensive for us in the long run, certainly not easier or cheaper!

As for the stupid "census of ag" or whatever they're calling it now where a response is "required by law"... Well, it says a "response" is required... accuracy costs, I'm not getting paid, so the answers are going to be "good enough for gubmint work..." I'll "estimate" the numbers they want, but only within an order of magnitude of accuracy... IOW, my estimate may be 1/10 the actual number or 10 times the actual number... close enough for me.

Later! OL J R


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

They will have no idea if the numbers you report are accurate or not. The information collected is entered into their computer system to come up with their statistics. There is no individual listings in their statistics.....only by state and region. This is just their way of lording it over you. I hope I do not get that survey....I am surprised that I already have not since I see that it was dated early-December.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Vol said:


> They will have no idea if the numbers you report are accurate or not. The information collected is entered into their computer system to come up with their statistics. There is no individual listings in their statistics.....only by state and region. This is just their way of lording it over you. I hope I do not get that survey....I am surprised that I already have not since I see that it was dated early-December.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Obviously Mike, they don't consider you a producer. Got mine late November-early December.

As for surveys, I remember sitting with several county ag professionals and estimating acreages of crops in the county and how far along they were. It was a cluster. Any agency that puts stock in those numbers gets what they deserve-bad decisions!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayman1 said:


> Obviously Mike, they don't consider you a producer. Got mine late November-early December.


The last NASS I received was about 4 years ago.....and I did fill it out. So I am surprised that I did not receive one. We actually discussed it here on hay talk back then. I think NDVA Hayman and several others also discussed it at the time and we talked about whether to fill it out or not. At that time several had decided to low ball their figures.

Regards, Mike


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Hugh said:


> I'm wondering if sometime ago you filled out a USDA form saying you were a "producer."


No idea at this point.


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## haygrl59 (May 19, 2014)

Earlier this year I received the American Community Survey and it stated that it was "mandatory" "under penalty of law". I threw it in the trash. I found out that no one had been prosecuted since the 1970s for not complying and filling it out. I also learned a bit about the Census act and that we are not required to fill out any census forms except for the "official" Census done every 10 years and then I try to give as minimal information as possible. I even received several phone calls from "officials" stating I needed to fill it out. I told them I refused and as an American Citizen I was not required to fill out a form except for once every 10 years. They finally gave up on me, I guess, because the phone calls quit. If everyone stood up to the bureaucratic tyrants and said "no more", what could they do? We outnumber them all. People have forgotten that we don't work for the government but it should be the other way around. We don't need to fill out any stinkin', nosey surveys. We all know that filling out the surveys benefit very few except maybe the printer companies and the U.S. mail service. Sorry, but this just gets my dander up. I guess I'm just a rebel in a world of sheep. (Of course, you all are not included as sheep)


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

The constitution only gives them the right to count people noses and that's all I give them in any survey.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

My surveys have stated that I grow sugarcane and pineapples. Also 5 acres of bananas


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Teslan said:


> My surveys have stated that I grow sugarcane and pineapples. Also 5 acres of bananas


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !!!!!!!!!!

Making Surveys Great Again !!!!!!!


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I get those stinking things EVERY year (or at least it seems that way). I got my first one a while back and expect to get a few more before the season is over. I respond to every single one of them and it doesn't do any good to respond to them as they still send another in a month or two.

I ain't sure what's on the inside of the envelope, but the outside says something like "response required by law" or some crap.

I chuck the dang thing in the trash while muttering under my breath....that *IS* a response, isn't it??!!

Skip A Rope


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

If it's not certified mail or hand delivered how do they know you received it? Our post office seems to routinely get mail mixed up


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I don't care what you do with the surveys USDA sends you,but don't fool yourself that the big companies don't know how much of what is being grown. For the last 50 years the big marketing advisory companies do there own estimates of acres and yield for crops traded on the exchanges. I had ag econ professors in the 70's saying you are only hurting yourself not having as good of information as the major grain buyers have,the only way for a producer to get this is with USDA reports. I don't completely agree with that.but always two sides to everything.

Just as easy to take some numbers off the top of you head as keep putting them in the trash. I don't fill all of them out and amazing how many are for crops not grown in my part of the country. That makes it easy just a 0.

With 5 years of very sub normal rainfall the government supplemented crop insurance has been a real life saver. Of course with the good comes the bad of having to report your acres and let insurance people come onto the property and check acres and yield of crops and pasture. Many of you are far larger producer than I,but many on here also are part time so maybe crop insurance is not as important to you.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I been told that a satellite takes about 90 minutes to orbit the earth. If so the USDA can tell how far each of my cows have moved (if they are outside as they usually are) and exactly what I am growing (along with the expected yield or if there is a infestation of a pest or crop is too dry or lacking a mineral), sometimes before I do.

I have mixed feelings on the survey, to say the least.

Larry


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

r82230 said:


> I been told that a satellite takes about 90 minutes to orbit the earth. If so the USDA can tell how far each of my cows have moved (if they are outside as they usually are) and exactly what I am growing (along with the expected yield or if there is a infestation of a pest or crop is too dry or lacking a mineral), sometimes before I do.
> 
> I have mixed feelings on the survey, to say the least.
> 
> Larry


This overlooks the fact that the Earth rotates under the satellite... in a 90 minute Earth orbit, the Earth has rotated eastward under the satellite's flight path by 1036.4 miles (at the equator-- the number gets less and less the further north one is due to the smaller number of miles per degree of latitude (smaller circle around the Earth) divided by the same number of degrees in a full circle (360) and the fixed 24 hour day length. This is called the "precession" of the orbit... This is greatest for the polar orbits common of spy satellites, and is different for the more "equatorial" orbiting satellites used for commercial and civilian purposes (more or less). Satellites launched from a ground site cannot go into a lower inclination orbit than the latitude (in degrees above the equator) of the launch site itself (not without complex and fuel-intensive orbital maneuvering to change the plane of the orbit), which for satellites launched from Cape Canaveral is about 29.5 degrees (IIRC). That's why ISS is in a 52 degree inclination orbit, so that it can be accessed by rockets launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Khazakstan by Russia (at 51 degrees north latitude) as well as from Cape Canaveral at 29 degrees latitude-- you can access higher inclination angle orbits from lower latitude launch sites, but not the other way around-- low inclination orbits from high latitude launch sites like Baikonur).

At any rate, nobody is "watching how far your cows have moved from one orbit to the next"... data analysis takes a LONG time and is the biggest "bottleneck" in using it... A satellite zooming over the surface of the Earth can collect data on every farm it flies over in a thousands-of-miles-long-path across a continent in a matter of minutes-- capturing and condensing and analyzing that data however takes a LOT of man-hours...

Of course, those who can make a buck off the data and have the resources to analyze certainly can get ahold of it and use it... but in real-time-- even the military with all it's resources is challenged to do that... except for of course carefully selected 'targets' for surveillance or observation, not "everything, all the time"...

Still, I hear what you're trying to say... I worry more about this communistic animal-ID thing-- when every animal has to be "tagged" with RFID chips, ANY yahoo with the friggin scanner will be able to drive by your place or fly over and scan every single chipped animal anytime they want to... and of course the "security" and capability of the information to be abused will be ever present... that's why I'm 100% ABSOLUTELY opposed to any RFID animal ID programs for any reason whatsoever... unless it's COMPLETELY voluntary... if someone CHOOSES to do that, that's their business... but I would NEVER do it myself.

Later! OL J R


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> This overlooks the fact that the Earth rotates under the satellite... in a 90 minute Earth orbit, the Earth has rotated eastward under the satellite's flight path by 1036.4 miles (at the equator-- the number gets less and less the further north one is due to the smaller number of miles per degree of latitude (smaller circle around the Earth) divided by the same number of degrees in a full circle (360) and the fixed 24 hour day length. This is called the "precession" of the orbit... This is greatest for the polar orbits common of spy satellites, and is different for the more "equatorial" orbiting satellites used for commercial and civilian purposes (more or less). Satellites launched from a ground site cannot go into a lower inclination orbit than the latitude (in degrees above the equator) of the launch site itself (not without complex and fuel-intensive orbital maneuvering to change the plane of the orbit), which for satellites launched from Cape Canaveral is about 29.5 degrees (IIRC). That's why ISS is in a 52 degree inclination orbit, so that it can be accessed by rockets launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Khazakstan by Russia (at 51 degrees north latitude) as well as from Cape Canaveral at 29 degrees latitude-- you can access higher inclination angle orbits from lower latitude launch sites, but not the other way around-- low inclination orbits from high latitude launch sites like Baikonur).
> 
> At any rate, nobody is "watching how far your cows have moved from one orbit to the next"... data analysis takes a LONG time and is the biggest "bottleneck" in using it... A satellite zooming over the surface of the Earth can collect data on every farm it flies over in a thousands-of-miles-long-path across a continent in a matter of minutes-- capturing and condensing and analyzing that data however takes a LOT of man-hours...
> 
> ...


You're talking as if you're a rocket surgeon. Stop scaring us like that!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

gosh said:


> You're talking as if you're a rocket surgeon. Stop scaring us like that!


I ARE one!!! LOL

http://www.spacex.com/webcast

Check this out... see the second circle around the Earth ~1000 miles west of the first one-- that's the next orbital pass, due to rotation of the Earth... (precession of the orbit, which is most notable on polar orbits).









Later! OL J R


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> This overlooks the fact that the Earth rotates under the satellite... in a 90 minute Earth orbit, the Earth has rotated eastward under the satellite's flight path by 1036.4 miles (at the equator-- the number gets less and less the further north one is due to the smaller number of miles per degree of latitude (smaller circle around the Earth) divided by the same number of degrees in a full circle (360) and the fixed 24 hour day length. This is called the "precession" of the orbit... This is greatest for the polar orbits common of spy satellites, and is different for the more "equatorial" orbiting satellites used for commercial and civilian purposes (more or less). Satellites launched from a ground site cannot go into a lower inclination orbit than the latitude (in degrees above the equator) of the launch site itself (not without complex and fuel-intensive orbital maneuvering to change the plane of the orbit), which for satellites launched from Cape Canaveral is about 29.5 degrees (IIRC). That's why ISS is in a 52 degree inclination orbit, so that it can be accessed by rockets launched from the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Khazakstan by Russia (at 51 degrees north latitude) as well as from Cape Canaveral at 29 degrees latitude-- you can access higher inclination angle orbits from lower latitude launch sites, but not the other way around-- low inclination orbits from high latitude launch sites like Baikonur).
> 
> At any rate, nobody is "watching how far your cows have moved from one orbit to the next"... data analysis takes a LONG time and is the biggest "bottleneck" in using it... A satellite zooming over the surface of the Earth can collect data on every farm it flies over in a thousands-of-miles-long-path across a continent in a matter of minutes-- capturing and condensing and analyzing that data however takes a LOT of man-hours...
> 
> ...


Well.. I use Google earth quite a bit! Lookin' for better trails to use my horses for huntin'.. And I have used the local Borough governments tax assessment satellite imagery (more accurate and recent than Google) to review the detail of some property we later bought.

Welcome to the "Dark Side"!!

Let's not OVERLOOK drones....

Everyone and everything will be droned to the nth degree.

For better or worse it's the world and the country we all live in.

Anybody here use those numbers preseason or a couple years in advance to make adjustments in crop rotations or bred heifer holdovers?

That said... Anything can be abused or misused - especially when there's any chance to profit from that action. But, I don't think the folk's at my NRCS office are taking vacations in the Virgin Islands or driving BMW's.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Second notice arrived a few days ago. I feel like sending it to the White House and asking the president to please stop hassling me.

If only the federal government cared as much about border enforcement as they do about our hay fields.


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