# Sugar content - hay customer



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Well I got my first customer wanting to know the sugar content of my hay. Not that she isn't willing to pay for the hay and the test (that's good in my thinking process ). My knowledge is real limited, but ........................... maybe I can learn. 

Here is a link to the lab & tests available that I use:

https://agriking.com/lab-services/analab-policies/

I'm not certain (educated yet) on what test(s) she would need in order to answer her question, about the amount of sugar in my hay. She also ask about starch, but that's already in the test results that I get IDB (I get the complete forage test on my hay, FYI).

So HT guys/gals help educate this old guy on sugars and possibly what test should I get for her. I don't want to call her out, but just be able to talk the language a little will be helpful. Maybe I have a better premium product I can produce (naturally selling for more $$, if i got to take extra steps to produce). 

My thought process so far, is the plant (alfalfa or grasses), produce sugar throughout the day. The peak sugar content is just before/at sundown. The plant uses this sugars to 'grow', the growing happens all day (with the right conditions, naturally). So the plant sugar content is the lowest at sun rise (or shortly thereafter). If this is true, the earlier in the day cutting would help generate lower sugar hay.

Let me have it, won't be the first time I'm off-base either. 

Thanks in advance for your wisdom/knowledge/comments. 

Larry


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Larry

Evidently you're unaware that horses that have diabetes must monitor their sugar consumption!!!  Several yrs ago I had a prospective horse hay customer share that pertinent information with me. After a short discussion with her I stated I thought it would be in both our best interests & for the well being of her horse IF SHE PURCHASED HAY SOME PLACE other than from me.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

It would seem she read a story,but knows nothing. Like the average Rexall Ranger (that drug store company around any more) knows nothing.

Sugar in hay is starch,water washes it away, rained on hay you got tedded a bunch of time to be just stems,perfect solution for both of you. Oh as it is special double the price before hand,then she can offer less,and become the hero.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Low sugar hay purchasers are not that rare. Many folks who want teff want it for that reason. Founder is butt ugly.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Ray 54 said:


> It would seem she read a story,but knows nothing. Like the average Rexall Ranger (that drug store company around any more) knows nothing.


What a blast from the past, we had a Rexall drug store in town way back when..................... haven't seen one in decades at least. I don't think she is old enough to get her education from that brand, but I get the drift. 

Larry


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Lol - still got a Rexall a half hour away from me!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I ain't seen a Rexall in forever....I have quite a few that want "low sugar" hay. I usually feel them out when they start asking You tube questions and tell them what they want to hear.....I know what's what in my barn and I try to oblige with what they're looking for....if they want additional testing, that's on them. Generally speaking, if it gets cut in the a.m. the sugar content should be lower.....if they test it and it ain't low enuf, I musta grabbed the wrong one  
Probably 10% will ask for "lower sugar hay", I may hear "prewashed hay"


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

You're looking for ESC+Starch to be <10 dry matter basis.

We use Equi-Analytical's Trainer 603 wet chemistry test.

Our hay is typically low in sugar, potassium and iron - all concerns of special needs horses - it is definitely a niche market worth exploring IMHO.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Hayman1 said:


> Low sugar hay purchasers are not that rare. Many folks who want teff want it for that reason. Founder is butt ugly.


I agree founder in a horse is not fun BUT due to the fact that a horse has the most sensitive digestive system of any animal on Earth there are many things beside sugar content of hay to cause a horse to founder. Back in my youth I had a mare founder while eating only grass while grazing in a pasture. No clover,no fertilizer on grass just plain ole grass. She was not being utilized as a riding horse at the time just turned out.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> I agree founder in a horse is not fun BUT due to the fact that a horse has the most sensitive digestive system of any animal on Earth there are many things beside sugar content of hay to cause a horse to founder. Back in my youth I had a mare founder while eating only grass while grazing in a pasture. No clover,no fertilizer on grass just plain ole grass. She was not being utilized as a riding horse at the time just turned out.


With info given (horse on pasture only), wouldn't make sense to only let horse graze in the morning? From everything that I'm reading, to produce low sugar hay that's when you need to cut (early in the day). If I'm thinking wrong, go ahead and hit me. :huh:

I think I'm producing low sugar hay now, because I cut in the morning. With one exception, a couple of weeks ago I did cut late afternoon/evening time. That hay test isn't back yet on that hay to compare with my other hay tests.

I'm thinking is there could possibly a difference in the sugar content as hay matures. Maybe sugar content is lower as hay matures? If so, that is going to go against me big time. I'm waiting for the next weather break to start cutting some 4th cutting (blossoms already showing 2 days ago). There is still un-cut 2nd cuttings in my area, as a point of reference.

Larry


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

From the people I have talked to that are looking for low sugar hay, they aren't looking for sticks but higher protein with less sugar. Includes a major hay broker who should know what they are talking about. I don't have a dog in the fight and freely stipulate that many buyers buy on silly notions. However, when they have the cash that you would like to call yours, their notions become more tolerable. Just sayin...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I usually cut hay around noon when the hay is completely dry from a heavy dew. I do this for my benefit so that my conditioner cleanup is much much easier. When it is soaking wet with dew, it seems that the small grass pieces stick like glue under the hood and curtain. I also mow at the same time when using my disc mower. Not nearly as messy as mowing with the dew.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Vol said:


> I usually cut hay around noon when the hay is completely dry from a heavy dew. I do this for my benefit so that my conditioner cleanup is much much easier. When it is soaking wet with dew, it seems that the small grass pieces stick like glue under the hood and curtain. I also mow at the same time when using my disc mower. Not nearly as messy as mowing with the dew.
> 
> Regards, Mike


It is pretty amazing the difference in cleanup time, and effectiveness of dew or rain laden grass when cutting vs dry. It's like a hippy making a grass smoothie and it clings to everything. I am guessing it is a 3x factor and you don't suffer the rust with dry grass. same for the lawn mower.


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

Tx Jim said:


> I agree founder in a horse is not fun BUT due to the fact that a horse has the most sensitive digestive system of any animal on Earth there are many things beside sugar content of hay to cause a horse to founder. Back in my youth I had a mare founder while eating only grass while grazing in a pasture. No clover,no fertilizer on grass just plain ole grass. She was not being utilized as a riding horse at the time just turned out.


yep ....plain ole grass especially spring grass will founder some horses within a few days.......we have a lot of horses ......a couple need "dry lotted" and put on hay portiens during spring grass and can only turn them back out when the other horses have picked the pastures down pretty thin...

its a good place to use less than perfect horse hay or hay that got washed ...plenty of fiber and bulk short on sugars enough nutrients to sustain


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> You're looking for ESC+Starch to be <10 dry matter basis.
> 
> We use Equi-Analytical's Trainer 603 wet chemistry test.
> 
> Our hay is typically low in sugar, potassium and iron - all concerns of special needs horses - it is definitely a niche market worth exploring IMHO.


Anything special you do to get those numbers?

Is there a difference with the maturity of the hay?

Is there a difference in types of hay?

Seems what I'm gleaning from this is, cut early (which I do), but I chase 'green' hay. The greener the better it sells, if it gets 'washed' in MY neck of the woods, color goes fast. So with that said, sounds like green hay and low sugar hay cannot be in the same sentence?

Thanks for the lab, got some submit forms forthcoming, haven't heard back from her on coughing up the $$$ ($65 IIRC).

Larry


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

ttazzman said:


> yep ....plain ole grass especially spring grass will founder some horses within a few days.......we have a lot of horses ......a couple need "dry lotted" and put on hay portiens during spring grass and can only turn them back out when the other horses have picked the pastures down pretty thin...
> 
> its a good place to use less than perfect horse hay or hay that got washed ...plenty of fiber and bulk short on sugars enough nutrients to sustain


According to Penn State, early OG can have protein in excess of 28%, at pre-joint stage, so i imagine it might higher yet at earlier stages.  I have personally tested some at over 23%.

https://extension.psu.edu/orchardgrass

Larry


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Anything special you do to get those numbers?
> 
> *Firstly we do not have any legumes. I think you can get low sugar hay with alfalfa, but I'm not "schooled" on it a we have straight grass hay. If we had clover, and most around us do, our sugar numbers would be high. Timothy and what we call timothy mix - which is just our older fields getting infiltrated with orchard grass and fescue. I think timothy produces a lower sugar hay than OG or fescue. Since the horse folks generally don't like fescue, we don't plant it. In our neck of the woods, everyone has OG, so timothy kind of gives us a niche to some extent. Teff is low in sugar and tests on par with timothy. Those are the only two grasses we plant on our farm.*
> 
> ...


Larry,

See my replies above in *BOLD....*

Thanks,

Bill


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## ttazzman (Sep 29, 2019)

leeave96 said:


> Larry,
> 
> See my replies above in *BOLD....*
> 
> ...


sounds a lot like our hay operation....timothy is a great horse hay lots of roughage/fiber, long harvest window, and very palateable to horses ........spot on on the sugar discussion.........spot on on the color discussion....we did a test this year and were able to get a small batch of timothy hay up cut -baled in 30hrs which is remarkable in our climate(JD 630impeller conditioned and tedded) ....(yes we moisture test etc) ........lot of knowledgeable advice in your post sir.......the only issue i have with timothy is in our climate its hard to get more than one cutting a year so we mix it with Brome grass that makes for some great horse hay

edit to add.......you mention no legumes in your hay....we plant a bit of dutch clover in our timothy/brome....for nitrogen fixing ....dutch clover maxes out at 8" high...we cut at 6+ inches high and any clover we catch is heads and it will drop out of the hay .....


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> Our hay is typically low in sugar, potassium and iron - all concerns of special needs horses - it is definitely a niche market worth exploring IMHO.


Bill,

Here are some numbers from some of my hay tests, are they low/high or in the middle numbers for Potassium & Iron?

Potassium Iron

Nass 3.73% 155 ppm 3rd cut

Hay 17 3.54% 133 ppm 3rd cut

Baleage 3.47% 130 ppm

Hay 13b 1.94% 137 ppm

7.05-17a 2.47% 148 ppm 2nd cut

7-2-9a 2.81% 307 ppm almost straight alfalfa

Nass 7-2 2.95% 82 ppm same field as 1st one on list this is 2nd cut, first one is 3rd

FYI -The first and last tests (Nass & Nass 7-2) are from same field, 3rd cutting listed first, then 2nd cutting test results. Probably mostly alfalfa, grass would be mainly OG, with some brome grass. I double checked the iron numbers to make sure i didn't fat finger even. 

Hay 17 & 7-5-17a is also the same field (7-2 was 2nd cut, Hay 17 was 3rd cut). More than 50% grass OG.

TIA for your knowledge.

Larry


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Bill,
> 
> Here are some numbers from some of my hay tests, are they low/high or in the middle numbers for Potassium & Iron?
> 
> ...


Larry,

I'm no expert, but I have customers that want iron levels below 150 ppm and potassium at or below 2.0%. We are a little high on potassium, but are generally 70 ppm or less on iron.

Google HYPP and laminitis horses (or metabolic syndrome) and hay forage test requirements. I've got customers that use the hay analysis to "balance" their horse's diet with supplements - based on the overall condition of their horse. "Wet chemistry" is very important to these customers, hence the Equi-Analytical 603 Trainer test we use. The most important value we see customers want is sugar less than 10% ESC/starch combined for their IR horse. BTW - we/customers are looking at the dry matter column.

Interestingly enough, hay for "special needs" horses is a niche market, makes for a higher price per bale - but so do customers that wait until December/January or later to buy hay and will take anything do shortages of squares - paying same or more than the "good" hay. We don't see much in between...

My advice is get with your customers, show them your analysis and see what they think.

Good luck,

Bill


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Thanks Bill,

The learning never seems to slow down.  Do you ever see great variances potassium / iron between 2nd and later cuttings, like I had?

BTW the crude protein on all of these samples ran from over 17.5% to almost 21%. Maybe with that high CP, potassium / iron will be higher? I cut on about a 30 - 35 day schedule, naturally weather dependent.

Larry


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Thanks Bill,
> 
> The learning never seems to slow down.  Do you ever see great variances potassium / iron between 2nd and later cuttings, like I had?
> 
> ...


I can't speak to a CP / potassium/ iron relationship. Our hay seems to be pretty consistent year over year with the only variance time of cut, ie late May vs July 1st. Once you start testing you should start seeing a pattern.

Bill


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

OK, got some more HT results, from a different lab (Bill's), have one more forthcoming (the 603 test), but that one takes longer they tell me. Anyhow, these have the WSC and starch and Potassium numbers (I think) but no iron.

Definitely below 10% starch and sugar if I'm reading correctly. Perhaps I have low sugar hay and didn't know it? 

Lot's more ash, with being tedded twice and raked three times (cloudy days, smoke days and heavy dews, make September hay 'difficult' to say the least). :mellow:

Thoughts.................

Larry


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

I wonder if they'll ever ask for.... wait for it.......Vegan Hay! 

The way the world runs today wouldn't surprise me.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> OK, got some more HT results, from a different lab (Bill's), have one more forthcoming (the 603 test), but that one takes longer they tell me. Anyhow, these have the WSC and starch and Potassium numbers (I think) but no iron.
> 
> Definitely below 10% starch and sugar if I'm reading correctly. Perhaps I have low sugar hay and didn't know it?
> 
> ...


You definitely have low sugar hay. I'm not sure about acceptable ash content without looking it up.

I would recommend you look-up your Equine experts/vets at one of the large university large animal vet colleges up there and have them evaluate your forage tests. Be sure to tell them you're customer are horses and your interested in how the results square with a special needs horse, ie IR, Cushings, etc.

Good luck!
Bill


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> You definitely have low sugar hay. I'm not sure about acceptable ash content without looking it up.
> 
> I would recommend you look-up your Equine experts/vets at one of the large university large animal vet colleges up there and have them evaluate your forage tests. Be sure to tell them you're customer are horses and your interested in how the results square with a special needs horse, ie IR, Cushings, etc.
> 
> ...


Bill,

Here's the 603 test results, I was going for low sugar by cutting early in the day, I actually started cutting while the dew was on.  It's lower on the combined starch/sugars than the other tests.  The 603 apparently doesn't give the ash content.  They told me that the 603 is a wet analysis, whereas the other 3 tests that I posted are not. So, I'd be guessing as how well they compare. From what I have read, they are supposed to be relatively the same numbers.

Larry


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> Bill,
> 
> Here's the 603 test results, I was going for low sugar by cutting early in the day, I actually started cutting while the dew was on.  It's lower on the combined starch/sugars than the other tests.  The 603 apparently doesn't give the ash content.  They told me that the 603 is a wet analysis, whereas the other 3 tests that I posted are not. So, I'd be guessing as how well they compare. From what I have read, they are supposed to be relatively the same numbers.
> 
> Larry


Definitely low sugar hay. The horse customers that I have who are ultra keen on test results prefer wet chemistry, which is what the 603 uses.


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