# Carbon Tax Discussion re Vol's Question



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

So just a short post. In Canada there are two general ideas being tossed around to curb greenhouse gas emissions.

1. Carbon tax. Simple approach, carbon based fuels are taxed with a per ton of CO2 produced when they are burnt at a rate of something like 25$ a ton. One of our provinces has been doing it for about 5 years and achieved a 16% reduction or so. Its roughly revenue neutral to the government, i.e. other taxation was reduced. It behaves similar to the road tax on gas and diesel only its also charged on home heating fuels, wood pellets, natural gas propane etc.

Red diesel is exempt of road and CO2 tax there. That province you can run dyed diesel on the road if hauling field to farm.

It gives a predictable known price of carbon and is a simple system to understand, its impossible to know exactly how much emission reduction will happen though and a booming economy can blast through the cost and still balloon emissions. It drives folks away from coal to natural gas or renewables by tilting the market slightly.

2. Cap and Trade. The other system favoured by I think a couple of eastern provinces doesn't set a price for carbon. You buy up slices of the countries overall tons of emissions pie at auction. If you want to exceed the emissions you buy from the pie you have to do carbon capture or buy carbon capture done by someone else or buy up pie someone else bought. Works a bit like currency except as you work towards a lower total emissions its like removing currency from the market so it drives the value up.

Investor folk love this type of system as there is money to be made buying and selling credits doing all their speculation and whatnot. It strongly constrains a boom in the economy as I don't think there is a mechanism to control inflation of the credits cost as the goal is fixed maximum emissions. On the flip side in an economic crash where there is surplus emission credits vs need they would become worthless.

My own opinion is I dislike cap and trade mostly as it seems a lot like usury and the money falls into my least favourite peoples hands, investment managers and the like. More economic roulette for them to play.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

slowzuki said:


> So just a short post. In Canada there are two general ideas being tossed around to curb greenhouse gas emissions.
> 
> It behaves similar to the road tax on gas and diesel only its also charged on home heating fuels, wood pellets, natural gas propane etc.


Thats kind of a load of crap, depending how they are getting their wood to make the pellets, if it was just left to rot its gonna release the same mount of carbon regardless.


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## NewBerlinBaler (May 30, 2011)

There was talk here a few years ago about carbon credits for forest land owners - that's me. So many acres of forest land sequesters so much atmospheric carbon each year. I'd be happy if it worked out so the property tax was covered. In fact, I'd argue that forest land owners shouldn't have to pay property tax. Property tax should only kick in if/when the land is developed. That's when roads, schools, etc. become burdened.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Our province has a system Vermont was studying - for farmland the taxes can be deferred if you farm the land. If you subdivide it for non-farm development you pay back up to 20 years deferred taxes.



NewBerlinBaler said:


> There was talk here a few years ago about carbon credits for forest land owners - that's me. So many acres of forest land sequesters so much atmospheric carbon each year. I'd be happy if it worked out so the property tax was covered. In fact, I'd argue that forest land owners shouldn't have to pay property tax. Property tax should only kick in if/when the land is developed. That's when roads, schools, etc. become burdened.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I dread any kind of talk on carbon taxes here.....it will just be another government fleece with no real benefits other than to line someones pocket.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> I dread any kind of talk on carbon taxes here.....it will just be another government fleece with no real benefits other than to line someones pocket.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Absolutely


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Thats kind of a load of crap, depending how they are getting their wood to make the pellets, if it was just left to rot its gonna release the same mount of carbon regardless.


The whole idea of a carbon tax is a load of crap. The carbon tax here in Alberta just started jan 1. A real brilliant idea to introduce more taxes when the province is in one of the worst recession ever.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

hog987 said:


> The whole idea of a carbon tax is a load of crap. The carbon tax here in Alberta just started jan 1. A real brilliant idea to introduce more taxes when the province is in one of the worst recession ever.


Has the current PM been mainly responsible for the current "depth" or has this been a problem that has been building for a few years?

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Depends what you call depth. They both spew bs. You would swear they share the same pr firms.

Re the BC carbon tax, it is actually almost 10 years old and was set in law any tax it collects has to be cut from other taxation. They have the lowest income tax on average in Canada because they pay the money in the carbon tax.

I read something about they plugged the biofuel loop hole too, you can't bypass it by brewing ethanol or biodiesel at home similar to places that collect road tax on biofuels.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Vol said:


> Has the current PM been mainly responsible for the current "depth" or has this been a problem that has been building for a few years?
> 
> Regards, Mike


Granted the PM wants every province to have a carbon tax of some kind. But our nut case of a premier in Alberta ( who was voted in by protest against the last party because people were tired of their corruption) who is really pushing the carbon tax. She wants to be a leader with the highest carbon tax in Canada. Even tho Alberta is sitting on one of the largest oil and coal deposits in the world she wants to shut them all down. Wants to set up so called green energy like wind. Guess what there have been plenty of nights lately when its -30 and the wind power is producing next to nothing.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I ain't really sexist or anything, but don't y'all have a lot of women in power positions peddling some of this stuff or am I completely wrong......


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Conservatives had Kim Campbell as interim leader and she served as Prime Minister a short time.



somedevildawg said:


> I ain't really sexist or anything, but don't y'all have a lot of women in power positions peddling some of this stuff or am I completely wrong......


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

IMHO this whole carbon tax, cap and trade is a bunch of crap. I can remember when we had smog, litter rampant, chemicals in the rivers, smoke stacks. All of that is gone. Before one more job killing regulation is imposed in the innocent by the knuckleheads that dream up this crap AND by the way NEVER lose their job at the hands of these regulations - ought to FIX pollution in places like China and Mexico before lacerating more US and Canadian companies.

A friend of mine works at a papermill. It has been in business for over 100 years. Generations of families work and have worked at this mill. Directly and indirectly, they employ over 1,800 people - last I heard. My friend said if carbon taxes or cap and trade went through, the mill would close.

And people wonder why Trump won.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Sounds like a GREAT way to encourage businesses to relocate to places like China or Mexico where this crap will never fly...

Later! OL J R


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