# buying a new/used disc mower



## HeymanHay (Jul 1, 2015)

So I bought some land (60 acres) about 5 years ago and for the first couple of years I had no problem getting it cut. Well I was actually giving all the hay away to a guy who would cut it for me just to keep the land clean. I finally built a house on the property and moved in. I figured it was only fair considering I was living there now that we would do a split so that is what I suggested. After the first Hay season passed and I was stood up on the cutting I started searching for custom cutters in the area but low and behold I couldn't find one or maybe I just didn't have enough land for them to bother. I finally found a guy who would do a split with me, not in my favor, so we made an agreement. His guy cut but in my opinion did a terrible job, left a lot of waste and only cut the premium grass so now I'm debating on buying equipment that will last awhile and just doing it myself.

I have a low hp tractor 63 horse Ford 4610 4wd and I've picked up a rake and JD (I think it was a 336) square bailer but I still need a cutter to get started. I have found there are a lot of different brands out there to choose from and the brands I know (JD, New holland) are expensive plus i've heard NH is not a good disc cutter. I was wondering if you guys who know about this kinda stuff could give a city boy who moved to the country a little advise? What brand disc cutter would you suggest and which cutters would you stay away from? How big could I go with a 63 hp tractor with about 54 hp at the PTO? Any other suggestions for my scenario?


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

Do as you think is best for you, but you may consider a sickle machine if you want a conditioner. A good used one shouldn't be real hard to find and you have enough horse power that I would think in most conditions you should be able to pull a 9' cut about as fast as it will cut nice. Remember that my advice is worth what you paid for it, that is, if you donate your time to read it.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

"I heard NH is not a good disc cutter" 
Whoever told you that is mistaken. NH makes excellent disc cutters. As good as any other brand, IMO.
Problem is, you don't have enough HP to run most disc cutters. 
I would take a look at a sickle type cutter or a drum mower or a bigger tractor.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

I don't think any disc mower is much worse than any other.

Your 4610 has quite enough HP to run a 4 disc mower. It would probably run a 5 disc adequately enough.

Roger


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Before I upgraded tractors I pulled a 9' cut Vermeer disc cutter(7 disc) on a caddy with a Kubota M4900(45 pto hp) but I only pulled it 4 or 5 mph not 8 mph. I think 4610 should be able to do the same thing. Yrs back my brother pulled a NH 617(9' with 7 disc's) with a JD 2040(40 pto hp).


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## crzybowhntr (Jun 25, 2013)

I mow with a 62hp tractor that is rated 54hp at the pto and I use a 6 disc Vermeer 6040 with no issues.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I run a Gehl 1162 (@7' disc mower) with a Kubota 5040 which is @45 pto hp. It will handle it as fast as I can stay in the seat and/or make corners. For drying purposes, I use my 9' sickle conditioner more often with the same tractor...plenty of hp. I believe my tractor would have the hp for a 9' disc mower, just not enough lead in her butt to handle the extra weight hanging off of the 3pt.

73, Mark


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

the KUHN GMD 700 GII only requires 50PTO. I agree with TXJim that you should be able to run just about any 9' mower if it was mounted on a caddy.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

On the HP I'll just show you what's used here, a JD 5065M, 65 HP on the engine and like 56 on the PTO. It actually pulls the 9' NH DiscBine better than it did the 8' Kuhn mower conditioner, not sure why though. Mostly flatland.


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## tom-ky (May 30, 2011)

A 8 foot mower of about any brand would be ok on that tractor, I had a 4630 before which is a newer version of your tractor. The newer Kuhns calls for 42 hp on their 8 footer,


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> "I heard NH is not a good disc cutter"
> Whoever told you that is mistaken. NH makes excellent disc cutters. As good as any other brand, IMO.
> Problem is, you don't have enough HP to run most disc cutters.
> I would take a look at a sickle type cutter or a drum mower or a bigger tractor.


Agree that NH makes a good mower. When I get a newer one, I'll be looking for a NH first and foremost.

There's two basic types of disk mowers, based on how their cutterbar is designed. You've got gearbed cutterbars, and shaft-drive module cutterbars. Kuhn, Krone, Deere, and many others are gearbed cutterbars, which have a pair of idler gears between each mower disk, all turned by the drive box on one end, so the gears are turning each other. These work great-- I've run a 9.5 foot Kuhn for a guy and they're a real nice mower, BUT, sooner or later when a gear or bearing craps out, parts and bits of metal can swap places all up and down the bar and wipe the whole thing out in a chain reaction. Plus, the stamped-steel cutterbar itself serves as the gearcase for the cutterbar, which is filled with the proper amount of oil, and over time they can develop cracks or rust holes from the caked-on plant residue, dirt, sap, etc. that builds up on them, under them, etc. When this happens you usually will end up having (eventually) to junk the mower or replace the cutterbar, at GREAT expense. Patching, welding, JBWeld, etc will work for awhile but just as a stopgap-- when they start leaking and developing pinholes, eventually they'll be making new ones faster than you can patch them. Operating for prolonged periods on hillsides or inclines can starve the high end of the bar of lube as well and cause problems.

The other type is the shaft-driven bars, like SOME (not all) New Hollands, Lely, some others, etc. These usually have MODULES under each disk that contain a bevel gear set that turns the power coming in from the shaft running the length of the bar (or short quill shafts between modules, like NH uses) from horizontal to vertical to spin the "turtle" (cutting disk). These modules are either bolted together using spacers bolted to them on either side, (like NH) or "stacked" and bolted by a long thru-bolt(s) like a disk harrow gang. These modules can be "swapped out" for replacements or taken apart and rebuilt in the event of an unfortunate encounter with an immovable object (which inevitably happens sooner or later) and if a bearing or gear heads south, it doesn't swap metal with the other modules, since it's all contained in a single module. Each module holds its own oil or grease as well, so prolonged cutting on inclines is no problem, either.

With the tractor and hp you mentioned, I think you could handle a 7.5 foot disk mower no problem. A 9-9.5 footer would probably work too on a caddy-- might be a little heavy for the 3 pt. though. I've run a 5610S with about 72 engine hp pulling a 9.5 foot Kuhn in heavy, tough grass, no problem-- didn't even know it was back there at 6mph with good blades. My personal mower is a 7.5 foot PZ Zweegers drum mower we bought new back in about 88-89. I run it behind a 5610S with 68 engine hp and can cut anything, don't even know it's back there, run at 6 mph all the time. Just wish I had a 9 footer to get done a little faster-- but I'll have to trade up to a disk mower for that. We originally bought the drum mower because when we bought ours in the late 80's, disk and drum mowers were JUST starting to come into our part of the country, and it didn't take a rocket scientist to see that 6 bevel gears (input to cross-shaft bevel gears, then a bevel gear set for each of the two drum rotors counterrotating below the top-mounted gearbox would be a LOT longer-lasting and less maintenance than the 23 pinion idler, drive, and mower disk gears that I counted in a comparable 7.5 foot early-model Kuhn (which were also rebranded as NH mowers as the time) disk mower. We've been well pleased with it-- just wish it were a 9 footer, but they don't make a two-drum 9 foot mower (they made some four-drum 9 footers later on, but by that time the disk mowers had "won" and nobody carried them...)

Course, if you're on hills or steep ground, jd is right-- you'll probably need a bigger tractor. A caddy would definitely help in that situation, but on steep rolling ground there's really not much substitute for extra horsepower and weight so you don't get pushed around and have power to climb and mow without bogging the tractor engine down. In those conditions, for your existing tractor, you'd probably do better with a sickle mower-- they're lighter and less side draft and of course less horsepower hungry...

Best of luck! OL J R


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Is he talking just a disc mower or a disc mower with conditioner?


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

243S Krone 8 FT. 41 HP to run it. Great cut and very reliable machine. If you can find one at a reputable dealer who has gone through it, do not be afraid of it. I bought my 283 in 1997 used and am still using it. If you can do new it will last you a long time.


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

If 60 acres is all I was going to do I'd get me a drum mower reliable cheap and fast and you don't need much hp no hydraulics needed. But if you go with a drum mower be shure to invest in a tedder.


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## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

If you have fire ants like we do in South Carolina avoid sickle machines. I'd vote for the Krone 243. Excellent cutter.


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## HeymanHay (Jul 1, 2015)

Thanks guys for all the advice. I think I've narrowed it down to about a 7-8ft disc mower but now i'm curious about these conditioners. What do they actually do for you. It looks like it piles it in a neat little row and I understand that they are suppose to increase the drying time but would you not still need to turn it with a rake?


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

HeymanHay said:


> Thanks guys for all the advice. I think I've narrowed it down to about a 7-8ft disc mower but now i'm curious about these conditioners. What do they actually do for you. It looks like it piles it in a neat little row and I understand that they are suppose to increase the drying time but would you not still need to turn it with a rake?


The only reason the NH in the video was set for a narrow swath was because of how wet the ground was. Let the ground dry out a bit then ted. Normally it's set to spread a wide swath, about 5'.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Is he talking just a disc mower or a disc mower with conditioner?


AFAIK just a plain disk mower...

Add a conditioner and you add a lot of horsepower draw REAL quick-- plus I know they make them, but never seen a 3 point disk mower w/conditioner in person... anybody running a conditioner around here is running a pull-type center pivot or side-pull diskbine of whatever make.

Plus, you gotta have a LOT of tractor to lift one! Putting conditioners on a 3 point disk mower makes them heavier than the devil!

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Swv.farmer said:


> If 60 acres is all I was going to do I'd get me a drum mower reliable cheap and fast and you don't need much hp no hydraulics needed. But if you go with a drum mower be shure to invest in a tedder.


Not necessarily, depending on his crops and conditions. Southwest Virginia, yep you'd probably better have a tedder with a drum mower, because the drum mowers "windrow" the crop coming out the back... BUT, the OP is from Mississippi, so if he's got good drying weather (pretty far south and not too humid) and is doing fine-stemmed grass hay or stuff like that, he probably could get by without a tedder.

I'm near Houston and with our summer heat, even with the near 100% humidity most of the time, we can cut grass hay with a drum mower and rake 24 hours later, and bale 24 hours after that, no problem. Doing sorghum/sudan is a little more problematical-- tedding would definitely help and I picked up an old pull-type New Holland conditioner and a little two-basket tedder one time just in case I want to grow some sorghum-sudan again... Course before we had that stuff, we just let it dry an extra day or two, raked it, let it dry in the windrow a day or two, and then rolled the windrow over and let it dry some more, and baled it. Worked fine (as long as it doesn't get washed).

A lot depends on his local conditions, weather windows, crop, heat/drying conditions, time, etc...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

HeymanHay said:


> Thanks guys for all the advice. I think I've narrowed it down to about a 7-8ft disc mower but now i'm curious about these conditioners. What do they actually do for you. It looks like it piles it in a neat little row and I understand that they are suppose to increase the drying time but would you not still need to turn it with a rake?


A conditioner SHORTENS drying time, not increases it. The idea is to "bust up" the plant some to get rid of moisture faster, and another side-benefit is it usually makes the hay a little "softer" by busting up the stems some so it's more palatable to the animals.

There's two basic kinds of conditioners-- rollers (of various designs and materials) and tines. Tine conditioners are basically for grass, not legumes-- they tend to strip too many of the leaves off legumes, which is bad because that's where virtually all the feed value is. They work by using tines, bars, tubes, plastic fingers, steel fingers, etc. to rub the waxy layer off the surface of the stems of grasses, which then allows the moisture to dry out of the stems faster and the hay to dry down faster. The fingers work in coordination with a "conditioning plate" which is usually diamond-plate steel, which is adjusted up or down to keep the hay down into the finger area and retard its escape, forcing it down into the fingers more for additional conditioning, or moved up and away from the fingers for less conditioning. While finger conditioners for grass hay is probably better than NO conditioning, IMHO they're awfully hard on the crop, and unsuitable for legume crops because they rip the leaves off the stems, and so most of the valuable leaves just end up back on the field to rot. Also, just "scuffing" the stems doesn't make them dry as fast as roller conditioners would. Manufacturers like them because they're cheap to build compared to roller conditioners.

Roller conditioners work by two principles-- CRUSHING and CRIMPING. "Crushing" is caused by the cut forage being "crushed" between two rollers (and the crop layer itself) moving through the rollers under pressure as they're squeezed together by springs, torsion bars, air bags, etc. "Crimping" is kinking and breaking/splitting the stems every few inches as the crop passes between lugged rollers, and as the lugs intermesh, the stems are forced down into the crevasses in one roller by the lugs on the other roller, crimping and breaking the stem, and generally busting it open to expose the wet inner 'pith' inside the stem where the plant sap is mostly located. This results in the plants rapidly losing moisture from the broken stems as they lay on the field. This process also cracks leaf ribs on some long-leafed grasses (like sorghum/sudan) and results in some crushing of leaves against stems and the rest of the crop mat as it's squeezed through the rollers. For legume crops, this breaks the stems to allow them to dry down, without "beating" the leaves off the stems, as the leaves and stems pass through the rollers together and are just "squeezed together". Rollers can be made from rubber over steel tubes (New Holland and others), urethane over steel tubes (Deere and others), tire sidewalls cut in circles and stacked together and pressed into a solid reinforced rubber roll into which lugs and grooves are then cut ("TiCor" [Tire Cord] rolls, like those used on Hesston and others), and lugged steel (Deere and others), either as steel-on-steel rollers where both are steel, or a steel-on-rubber or other combination using one steel roller and one rubber coated roller, etc. They all have their good and bad points, and work differently in different crops and conditions, as various threads on this forum have pointed out. For instance, some folks swear by steel-on-steel rolls, some folks swear AT them... same thing for various other types/construction of the rolls. The manufacturers still make them because finger conditioners just don't work well in legumes, but they are more expensive than finger conditioners (though honestly they probably do a better job in most crops than fingers would, and they're CERTAINLY more versatile). Unfortunately they also usually take more horsepower than a similar size finger conditioner as well.

Conditioners are just about mandatory in some parts of the country-- the further north and east you go, where the sun and temperatures aren't as hot, where it can take "a week" for unconditioned hay to dry down enough to safely bale, where weather windows are short, or where the crop is "high value" and needs to be dried down as rapidly as possible to preserve feed value, color, etc, (say for dairy or horse hay, as opposed to "cow hay") conditioners are the norm and "plain disk mowers" are the exception. In drier and hotter climates with longer weather windows to make hay, where a little longer in the windrow to dry down is acceptable, or where making "premium" horse or dairy soft, green hay isn't a must, plain disk mowers are more than capable of doing the job.

You mentioned the "nice windrows" piled up by the shields on the back of mower conditioners. This can be a good or bad thing, depending on your location, climate, crops, etc. In certain areas where the soils tend to get wet and stay wet, cutting and conditioning the hay and setting the rear panels to "pile the hay up" allows the ground to dry out on the exposed ground and stubble between the piled up swaths of hay. This drying out of the soil can be very important for not only following haying operations like raking and baling, stacking and moving, etc. but can also be important to allow the hay to cure properly-- once it's raked into a windrow, hopefully on "dry ground" between the cut swaths. In areas where it's NOT critical to allow the ground to "dry out" between swaths, it's actually better to "spread the crop wide" so that it's in a thinner, more even layer, to dry out more quickly and evenly. Where the crop is "piled up" behind the conditioner, usually the hay is "teddered out" to spread it evenly across the field once the field has had a little time to dry out between swaths, so it can dry more evenly in a thinner layer. "Spreading wide" behind the conditioners if the soil doesn't require drying out much saves having to make another trip to tedder the hay out, depending on the crop and conditions, of course.

Some crops are difficult, even in hot, dry climates, to make without conditioning... for instance, sorghum-sudan grass "hay grazer" is usually hard to dry because of the tall, thick stems, which if unconditioned can take up to a week of good hot weather to dry sufficiently to safely bale. Finer stemmed grasses like bahia, bluestems, etc. usually see little/no benefit from conditioning.

The hay still has to be raked, no matter whether you're "piling it up" behind a conditioner, or "spreading it wide". "Piled up" swaths won't dry out enough on bottom without being raked, and of course "spread wide" will have to be put in a windrow for baling anyway. Hay is actually supposed to be raked up into windrows at about 50% moisture, which is visibly "wilted flat" generally speaking. The rest of the drying process should occur in the windrow. Raking when "too dry" shatters leaves (on both grasses but especially legumes) and reduces hay quality and feed value.

Later and hope this helps! OL J R


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I would be cautious buying a used disc mower. I would consider one from a farmer with a good reputation. When one starts making a new noise or had a quick repair it seems it gets traded in while it is still working.

A young local got into custom baling last year. He bought a used round baler, used disc mower and a rake. The mower came apart the first time he used it. No warranty. Dealer gave him the purchase price trade in on a new one.

The baler was old and a piece of junk but looked good. He still has it but bought a newer baler this spring.

The rake is a good one.

He is paying $800 per month on his haying endeavor. Good thing he has a day job.

Wish I had known him before he went shopping. Only met him this year when he called needing equipment help.


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## HeymanHay (Jul 1, 2015)

Once again thanks for the info. Luke Strawwalker you seem to be a very knowledgeable person on this subject matter. You should write a book if you haven't already. I really do appreciate the info, I'm learning a lot, and I'm discovering there is more to this science than just cutting grass.

In reference to location i'm in north Mississippi, so although it gets hot we do have high humidity. The grass that I will be cutting is Bermuda (i'm told Tifton R44) which is suppose to be good hay. I think it is used for both horse, and cow hay for we have a lot of both in these parts. My field was once part of a larger cattle ranch and the previous owner told me it was their premium hay field at one time. She is about 80 now, and out of the business. Of course since I've had it the field has not been sprayed or fertilized so the quality is probably not the same as it once was. Eventually I will have that done, or do it myself. I purchased a "drill test probe thing" that allows you to take samples and i plan to send some off next week, but I'm not sure what I'm testing for. I assume it's moisture content and maybe nutrition. I've been watching the internet hay exchange, and it seems the hay that has been sprayed and tested is more attractive, but i could be wrong.

It may take some time but I'll share with you guys what i've decided to go with in the near future. I'll probably be back with more questions before that time comes. Take care and once again thanks for the info.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

HeymanHay said:


> Once again thanks for the info. Luke Strawwalker you seem to be a very knowledgeable person on this subject matter. You should write a book if you haven't already. I really do appreciate the info, I'm learning a lot, and I'm discovering there is more to this science than just cutting grass.
> 
> In reference to location i'm in north Mississippi, so although it gets hot we do have high humidity. The grass that I will be cutting is Bermuda (i'm told Tifton R44) which is suppose to be good hay. I think it is used for both horse, and cow hay for we have a lot of both in these parts. My field was once part of a larger cattle ranch and the previous owner told me it was their premium hay field at one time. She is about 80 now, and out of the business. Of course since I've had it the field has not been sprayed or fertilized so the quality is probably not the same as it once was. Eventually I will have that done, or do it myself. I purchased a "drill test probe thing" that allows you to take samples and i plan to send some off next week, but I'm not sure what I'm testing for. I assume it's moisture content and maybe nutrition. I've been watching the internet hay exchange, and it seems the hay that has been sprayed and tested is more attractive, but i could be wrong.
> 
> It may take some time but I'll share with you guys what i've decided to go with in the near future. I'll probably be back with more questions before that time comes. Take care and once again thanks for the info.


You're welcome. Just experience and paying attention... LOL

Sounds like you have a neat set-up. Bermudagrass LOVES fertilizer, so you better be ready to spend some $$$ to get the big yields. Depends on what your goals are I guess. Are you making rounds or squares? Got a market yet? Shooting for horse hay or cow hay?? What's the going price for hay in your area and the demand, or are you baling hay for your own animals? A lot of how you manage it is going to depend on what you're trying to do.

Down south, even North Mississippi, I'd say a plain disc mower (no conditioner) will do whatever you want to do, especially fine-stemmed stuff like bermudagrass. Like I said, only time I've had to wait is either REAL late in the season (did some hay in early November for a guy one year) and really tall, thick stemmed stuff (sorghum-sudangrass haygrazer). Otherwise, even with the little windrows the drum mower puts out, it's not a problem.

Looking forward to hearing more about what you're trying to do.

Good advice above on buying a used disk mower... like I said, lots to go wrong, especially on the gearbed types. I know, I know, probably 3/4 of the guys out there are using gearbed type mowers, for the simple reason that they are probably 5/6 or more of the manufacturer's models (some, like NH, sell both modular cutterbars AND gearbed types, and the new Deere Mo-Co's actually have a modular GEAR-TYPE cutterbar, which really muddies the water!) I still just like the looks of a shaft-driven modular cutterbar over the box-o-idler-gear types myself, but that's a personal call. Buying used, I'd REALLY be leery of a gearbed type bar...

New is nice, but it's $10,000 bucks for a plain disk mower new. A used can be had for half that price, in good shape, but you DO have to be careful. If any way possible, I'd want to demo the thing first and see how it works on 20-40 acres... usually if it's gonna show problems, it'll do it in that length of time, and on your tractor you'd see how it works FOR YOU.

Later and best of luck! OL J R


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> I would be cautious buying a used disc mower. I would consider one from a farmer with a good reputation.


I agree buying a used hay cutter is very similar to getting married when the preacher states "for better or worse"  Used cutter can get worse & HIGH $$$$$ FAST


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

I wish you were closer! The Vermeer trailed mowers fill a lot of your needs. But they don't have a conditioner. For your horse power you may be better buying a tedder and a mower


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