# This may be the worlds dumbest question but I'm still going to ask it



## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

What is the need of a tedder. We always just rake it and then bale it?


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## cattleman4170 (Jan 26, 2010)

If you cut with a disk mower, the grass is laid down very uniformly. To tedder, spreads it out allowing more air and sun exposure therefore improved drying time. Some will say at least a day saved, sometimes two. I have Bermuda. I have started trying to fluff the hay the same day I cut, then the next day too. and bale the third day. So far it works for me here in Central Alabama. On Tifton 9 Bahia, usually takes three to four days provided it's very hot and no cloud cover. Here in this part of the country, many hay producers are experiencing a problem with Crab Grass. In Bermuda, you really need to target that 25 to 28 day cutting cycle, or the Crab Grass will never dry out in time. Hope this helps.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

It all depends.... In my area, it's real tough to get 4-5 days of drying time in a row. I am between the Illinois and Mississippi rivers and about 5 miles from the Missouri river. Humidity dropping below 60% is rare.

What I do is mow today, ted 12 hours later for alfalfa, 24 hours later for grass hay. Waiting allows a lot of the moisture to evaporate while in the swath without getting sun bleached too much. Tedding then gets the clumps and bottom side up in the air to allow it to dry better. Tedding usually is worth about one day drying time.

Ralph


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

Hmmm well im in south east michigan and ive never seen anyone around here use a tedder till today. Thats why I ask. Its normally pretty dry with 40% humidity right now, maybe a little less. I cut yesterday and then today Im going to rake today around 4:30. Then tomarrow im going to bale and the moisture is pretty low. I use my judgement not something electronic.
So a tedder wont really be necessary around here.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Hmmm well im in south east michigan and ive never seen anyone around here use a tedder till today. Thats why I ask. Its normally pretty dry with 40% humidity right now, maybe a little less. I cut yesterday and then today Im going to rake today around 4:30. Then tomarrow im going to bale and the moisture is pretty low. I use my judgement not something electronic.
> So a tedder wont really be necessary around here.


So you're cutting on Wednesday and baling on Friday. Ever try that with alfalfa?


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## sedurbin (May 30, 2009)

> I use my judgement not something electronic.


There is a lot of damp hay baled that way. After I bought my Delmhorst I found out that hay ain't quite as dry as I thought it was.


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## geiselbreth (Feb 21, 2010)

PASTORA will take out the crabgrass bahia johnsob singnal grass and rye plus weeds if u can stand the 10 day yellow i saw no yield reduction also came back thicker than in years past1 oz per acre plus suf really nice product about 15 dollars per acre


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

A tedder is a must around here, I cut a field of alfalfa wensday morning and ill bale it tommorrow afternoon, I have a harvest tech monitor in the tractor and the hay feels dry but sometimes it will fool you, I also have a hand held meter to probe the bales to just double check my monitor in the tractor.


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

rank said:


> So you're cutting on Wednesday and baling on Friday. Ever try that with alfalfa?


Yes i am doing that with an alfalfa mix field right now and then a 90% alfalfa 10% mix grass next week


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

There are a number of almost correct answers, as well as some well intended but less accurate assumptions.

If you need some help in curing hay to a reasonable moisture a tedder can be a big help.

There are some nice to know rules that we all must work with.

One way to measure hay drying is to look at Pan Evaporation. Dan Undersander in Wisconsin in one of his talks had a graph that graphically illustrate that the higher the percentage of ground that has hay out exposed to the sunshine the fewer inches of pan evaporation needed. 
The graph looks at hay in a windrow, to a full width swath out from the conditioning rollers, plus out to fully 100% of the ground with some hay laying on it. 
My 9 ft disk MoCo wide open drops a swath on about 66% the available ground. To get it to 100% requires the use of a tedder. (I have seen where there is some little pieces of steel I can put on a New Holland disk conditioner to give 100% coverage.) 
One little tidbit is roughly a third of the moisture can exit the hay through the breathing holes in the leaves. (Stomates.) These holes close up when they are in the dark, as in night time or in the middle of a windrow. After the holes close they do not open again, not in that life time.

There are some who advocate fluffing the hay up on the next morning to aid curing. That can and does work, just not as well as it would have on the first day.

There are a number of growers who know that low humidity and a good breeze will do more than direct sunshine, and they may be correct, along and above the border with Canada. Down here our sunshine is looking almost directly down, with no slant rays to it. What this intense sunshine does is heat the moisture in the stems and leaves. This increases the vapor pressure, and this vapor pressure forces the moisture out the nearest openings.

To some hay growers a low humidity is anything that goes below 50%. To other hay growers a high humidity is anything that is above 50% ! If you have a comfortable 20% RH with a temperature above 82º F, and a nice 15 mph breeze, you do not need the added effect of direct sunshine.

Now for the mechanics of using a tedder. First of all the school solution of raking or tedding with more than 40% moisture can be dangerous. With the stems at 60% and the leaves at 20% the tested moisture may be 40% but the leaves will still shatter. Fully cured hay, where the stems will snap, if the humidity is 90% the hay moisture will be 40%. The stems will be still dry but the leaves will be damp enough to be limber and not shatter off. 
So to the wise, rake or run the tedder right behind the mower, or wait until the humidity is as high as it will be for the day. HERE, I have to be finished raking by 9 am or I loose leaves.

Hint, when using a tedder, keep the PTO rpm's down in the 300 rpm range. It is a lot easier on the hay and scatters the hay very well, thank you very much. With 540 rpm's the hay will really fly, and look spectacular, just do not look too close.

Finally, when baling if the stems are 10% moisture and the leaves are 25 maybe 30% moisture, the hay will bale at 18% moisture and store very well. BUT ! if the leaves are 10% moisture and the stems are at 25% moisture, you will have bales of stems damp enough to heat for sure and probably mold. Hot Sticks!


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

sedurbin said:


> There is a lot of damp hay baled that way. After I bought my Delmhorst I found out that hay ain't quite as dry as I thought it was.


Well I think Im doin alright if you just take a lil handful and twist it and she if the hay cracks in the middle. But I cant afford a electronic one


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

Dang I got a 35yr ol tractor and a 15yr old haybine. I wish farmn was that easy


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Well, I am in the same area of the same state as he is and we for sure have different opinions on how dry it gets. Michigan is generally high humidity, we get few days below 45% humidity. I was watching a Detroit weather forecast today and they considered low himidity below 45% for Michigan. I did twice this year bale two day grass - legume hay but I think sunshine had a lot to do with it as well as breeze. I had read that sunshine was the most important drying agent? Hay Wilson, how do you determine stem vs. leaf moisture?


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## kamper24T (Oct 7, 2009)

Don't know what Hay Wilson will say, but one way I check stem vs leaf moisture is with a microwave. Get a sample of hay from the windrow. Pull all the leaves off the stems. Put the leaves on one plate and the stems on the other. Weigh each plate and then microwave each of them for a minute, be sure to put a half full glass of water in the microwave with the plate! Weigh the cooked hay and microwave again. Keep microwaving and weighing the plates until the weight doesn't change. Take the original weight minus the dry weight and you will get the weight of the water. Take the weight of the water divided by the original weight and you will get the percent moisture in the hay. Make sure the weights you are using is just the weight of the hay and does not include the weight of the plate or your calculations will be wrong! The process is much easier and faster than it sounds!!


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

thanks for that, you are right, it sounds lengthy but I am sure it is a good education.


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## Haymike56 (May 3, 2010)

Hey BCFENCE, 
I put one of those moisture meters in the tractor this year and there is a difference between what the hand held meter says and the baler mounted meter of about 5 to 6 %. Is that what you are seeing??


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I like my hay to be stem cracking dry about supper time, the day before I expect to bale. I do use the fingernail test. If scraping a fingernail on the stem some of the skin peals it is still too damp, If the fingernail slides on the stems surface it is dry enough to bale. 
I hope everyone realizes when everything is that dry the leaves will shatter. Big time!

You can game a electronic moisture tester. Tighten the bale down and it will read higher. loosen up and it will read lower. All the hay equipment I use requires operator discretion.

I perfer to do my own mowing, because if I pay attention I will see any blister beetle aggregation a couple rounds before I get to where they are. It is simple to just pick up the mower and go above the beetles for the 10 to 20 feet where they are. Besides I know how I like the hay to lay on the field to make both raking and baling easier. 
I prefer to do my own raking because I know how I like to run the baler. 
I prefer to do the baling so I will have a uniform bale that will work with a NH bale wagon.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I prefer to do everything myself also for an additional reason, it is cheaper, but I know once the weather around here starts allowing me to really start dropping alot of hay I am going to start paying big time for labor. I have way too much acreage to keep going at this pace.


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

Haymike56 said:


> Hey BCFENCE,
> I put one of those moisture meters in the tractor this year and there is a difference between what the hand held meter says and the baler mounted meter of about 5 to 6 %. Is that what you are seeing??


What ive seen is they are the same when i do it at a few minutes apart, When you wait till the next day i have seen the hand held be as much as 4 or 5 points higher, I have no idea why. Maybe hay wilson could help awnser why that is diffrent.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

I am a firm believer in running the tedder right behind the mower conditioner. With a 16' mower/conditioner you can only spread the hay so wide. I just run the tedder behind the mower and spread it out fully across the ground. I use a Krone and it fluffs the hay up on the stubble and you can see the difference in hay color as far as drying as you travel across the field. I baled most all of my first cutting of pure alfalfa 2 days after I cut it and it baled at 14-16.5 % moisture. Of course we had a pretty stiff wind each day and thru the night. Normally it would take 4-5 days before we could start baling . Baling starts around 10 pm. This all happens in North Dakota where our humidity is pretty low. Mike


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## David in Georgia (Aug 30, 2009)

Here in northwest Georgia teddering is a must. Especially this year with this majorly screwed up weather we've been having. I cut with a Kuhn GMD-600 Disc mower and follow up with a 17ft Sitrex tedder.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I forgot to comment on the microwave system to check for hay moisture.

Using the microwave & a postal scale is about as accurate a hay moisture you will find. _There is some operator technique involved but it is accurate. _
The draw back is the information is not timely. 
Here at least, by the time you learn the hay is 18% moisture it will be 14%. Great for an academic study but lacks practicality in a working hay field.

Watching an analog on the go moisture tester reporting the moisture as you are baling is a real education on the variability of hay moisture.

It is much like soil test variability. There are some learned Soils Professors who make a big deal about soil testing in 2.5 acre increments. (They probably like the 2.5 acre increments because it is close to being the metric Hector. When there are official studies that looked at variability on a foot by foot basis. Shoot there is even a study that looked at roughly 66% of a sq ft increments. Probably fits a metric measurement nicely!
There is some anecdotal information about different readings coming out of the same hole. just using slightly larger diameter probes each time.

There is a saying. Measure with a micrometer and cutting with a chain saw. 
Here we do a lot of cut to approxomite and beat to fit.


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## TessiersFarm (Aug 30, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Dang I got a 35yr ol tractor and a 15yr old haybine. I wish farmn was that easy


Man, If I could be so lucky, 70 year old Tractor 50's mower (no conditioner)


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Yes i am doing that with an alfalfa mix field right now and then a 90% alfalfa 10% mix grass next week


This is funny. Never seen a tedder in Michigan huh?

How wide is the head on your haybine and how wide is the swath? How long are your bales and how heavy? Are you putting them in a mow?


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## Va_plowboy (Jan 12, 2010)

It's definetly a nessesity in Virginia. Humidity is a killer here. We could'nt get really thick legumes dry without it. Clover will almost rot here before it cures if not tedded.

If I have time I kick it out of the swath in the evening after I mow, then again after the dew dries the next day. I usually just ted it the next day after I mow. The top of the swath will be pretty dry by then so I kick the bottom up to dry. Sometimes we can rake the same day with the rotary rake and bale the same day if time allows.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Dang I got a 35yr ol tractor and a 15yr old haybine. _ I wish farmn was that easy_


Are you a high school student? First year in the hay business?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I wouldn't have been able to make a dry bale this year without the tedder.

Regarding swath width. Depends a lot on your soil conditions. This spring all our ground has been _*very*_ moist if not downright saturated. It's pretty much a accepted practice in _our_ area that when the ground is wet to lay the row out as narrow as possible so as much ground as possible is left exposed to the sun, then ted it out the next morning. I've had situations where it laid for several days before it was tedded to give the ground more time to dry. If we laid it out as wide as possible in those situations, since the bottom of the row is on very wet ground, it will stay wet, even tedding it doesn't help much as a much larger percentage of the ground is still sopping wet.

When we have a dry spell going on here and the ground is dry or even dusty, then we lay em out as wide as possible. If the ground is just a little moist, we lay em out as wide as possible without running on it. I should add though the mowing tractor has had the wheels moved all the way out so a pretty wide swath can still be made with out running on em. In my experience at least, where you run a tractor tire down the row, and depending on soil moisture, that wheel track will tend to stay very wet to the point where it has to be teddded just to take care of that track while the rest of the hay may not really require it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> In my experience at least, where you run a tractor tire down the row, and depending on soil moisture, that wheel track will tend to stay very wet to the point where it has to be teddded just to take care of that track while the rest of the hay may not really require it.


Had a hired man that couldn't get it threw his thick head NOT to drive on windrow.On side hills or windy days he would drive on edge of windrows instead of swinging the tongue over.One day it was extremely windy and the windrow was landing 5' over and he drove one wheel rite down the middle of the windrow.









Had to V rake it twice to pick it all up and ended up wrapping hay around FWA driveshaft.I was a bit tiffed.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

BCFENCE said:


> What ive seen is they are the same when i do it at a few minutes apart, When you wait till the next day i have seen the hand held be as much as 4 or 5 points higher, I have no idea why. Maybe hay wilson could help awnser why that is diffrent.


Hay goes thru a sweat after it's baled. I can give you the technical reasons why if I leaf thru my Forage Field Guide, but regardless of the technical reasons, it does go up a bit after baling. Usually this isn't a problem if the hay was a consistent moisture content and is well cured when baled, this becomes a problem if you have tough spots in the row.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Dang I got a 35yr ol tractor and a 15yr old haybine. I wish farmn was that easy


Yah, I bale with a 1600 Oliver Diesel that I inherited when Grandfather passed on, either a '63 or '64. Ted with a Oliver Super 88, late fifty's. Still rake with a Oliver 1855 that is getting close or over 40 years old and has 8000 hours on the _third _ tach (prolly over 20,000 hours on it). Used to mow with father's NH495 which they quit making when Jesus was a baby. Ditto on rakes, NH 269's that were a uniform rust color instead of two tone. Learned to turn a profit and bought my own stuff.

Guys that jump in with both feet into haymaking and start out with all new equipment because they think it's easy, usually have auctions later with really nice equipment. Guys that do the same because all they remember is the years with high prices and the summers that a person had to pray that it would rain instead of that it would stop, usually have they're auctions a little later than the first guys I mentioned.


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## TessiersFarm (Aug 30, 2009)

Same here, no glorious equipment but its all paid for when I haul it home. I may not make much money but I don't loose any either. My animals always eat too, thats the important part.


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## AGCO Driver (Nov 6, 2009)

Bowlnchamp219. Thank you for thread. You have proven every question is a good question. Thanks to all, especially HayWilson for the responses. This was a very enjoyable and educational thread. When you think you know something well and BAM, you learn some more. Lots of smart people here. Man, I love this site.


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## elctlary (Jul 5, 2010)

I agree with AGCO Great question, lots of good discussion. Thanks


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Here in north central Iowa there are very few tedders. If the ground is dry when I cut alfalfa I normally bale in two days if the weather is dry. A third day usually insures complete dryness. I had never seen a tedder in operation until I went to the Farm Progress Hay Expo.

There are times when a tedder would be nice around here. When we cut on wet ground, and when rain is often.

So if I bought one how exactly do you use it? I throw the hay out as wide as the conditioning rolls on my 1431 NH. Would I then ted it out right after cutting? Wish I could use one once to see if it worked for me before buying one. If you rake and then get rain can you use it to spread the raked windrow again? That would be nice rather than re raking into a long rope after a rain.

I hope you are wrong about the fancy equipment. For years I was cutting with a 1958 720 diesel JD and a 7' sickle mower and raking with a pair of old steel wheel 3 bar New Idea horse rakes. Then got a Hesston PT 10 haybine for a year, then a newer Gehl. Three years ago got a JD 4440, a 4' Vermeer round baler, and a 12 wheel V rake, next year a new 1431 NH disc bine and this year a new Vermeer baler. I still like to put up idiot cubes with the old New Holland square balers when we get enough help though. Of course the hay acerage has gone up from 20 acres to about 80 acres of our own and a couple hundred custom acres. I have a lot of debt to pay off but I also have a lot of determination to make it all work.

I'd buy a tedder for next season if I thought it would help things along.


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

rank said:


> Are you a high school student? First year in the hay business?


Yes rank I am a High School student and yes sir this is really the first year i am running the operation...by myself I have just helped with bailing because we have Polled herefords. And yes I did buy my tractor and still dont have my first truck.


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## Dolphin (May 21, 2010)

barnrope said:


> Here in north central Iowa there are very few tedders. If the ground is dry when I cut alfalfa I normally bale in two days if the weather is dry. A third day usually insures complete dryness. I had never seen a tedder in operation until I went to the Farm Progress Hay Expo.
> 
> There are times when a tedder would be nice around here. When we cut on wet ground, and when rain is often.
> 
> ...


A tedder will be your next investment if you try one, you might as well figure out which make and model you would like to have now so you're not buying something you'll soon sell to get what you ultimately want.

I used one for the first time this year. I will always have one from now on. I cut in the afternoon with as wide a swath as the mower will do, then (tedded?/teddered?) the next morning. It really made a difference, I gained more than a day and the hay did not get as sun bleached so it looks better in the bale. $$

Even if you don't get rain having the hay off the field a day early so you can spread fertilizer before the rain is good for the next cut.

With the weather you have been having there I would think this is the year to get yourself a tedder.


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

Wow I havent checked this thread in a while but thank you all for the replies. I guess I will buy a tedder but right now all i have is a haybine and a tractor. I think Im going to buy a baler, then a rake, and then my tedder. Does this sound like a good idea. I have 50 acres that I cut and bale but I have to borrow the baler and rake and by the time 3rd cutting comes around I could buy a baler, rake and a tedder for the same price as borrowing them. 
I was lucky enough to do a 30 acre field with a tedder that is surrounded by woods but we get a good 15mph wind and almost directly sunshine...other than around the trees. I found it worked.... surprisingly well but I did notice that leaves fell off because I didnt tedd it right away.....Ya live and learn. The hard part is that I will cut from 1-7 in my big field but I have no time to tedd the field after. Could I tedd as soon as im done cutting. How late can I tedd until? How early can I start? 
Hope you guys can answer my questions. Thanks to all


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## rob_cook2001 (Apr 30, 2010)

Great thread, lots of info. The "tedders" we use around here just fluff the windrow. The pequea 710 and 910 fluffer tedders are the most common. I only know of one person in this area that uses a tedder like you all are talking about that scatters the hay. It works great in his grass but I really want to try it in alfalfa. I don't want to loose all the leafs, I was thinking cut in the morning then scatter it that night. Do you guys just rake it back together when there is a thick dew? How bad is the leaf loss?
Thanks
Robert


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

rob_cook2001 said:


> Great thread, lots of info. The "tedders" we use around here just fluff the windrow. The pequea 710 and 910 fluffer tedders are the most common. I only know of one person in this area that uses a tedder like you all are talking about that scatters the hay. It works great in his grass but I really want to try it in alfalfa. I don't want to loose all the leafs, I was thinking cut in the morning then scatter it that night. Do you guys just rake it back together when there is a thick dew? How bad is the leaf loss?
> Thanks
> Robert


It all depends when you use the tedder. If it is too dry you lose the leaves. So ultimately you want to do it right after you cut. This way you dont lose as many leaves. So I cut, then tedded the next morning, then raked later that day, bailed the next. Hope this helps.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

bowlnchamp219 said:


> Yes rank I am a High School student and yes sir this is really the first year i am running the operation...by myself I have just helped with bailing because we have Polled herefords. And yes I did buy my tractor and still dont have my first truck.


When you said you've never seen a tedder in Michigan before, it sounded to me like you were drawing on years of experience and I thought it strange, what with Michigan being on the great lakes and all. I agreed with your neighbor "hayray's" post in this thread who said it was actually quite humid in MI and 45% humidity was a rare day. That's when I checked your profile and saw that you were a high school student in your first year in the hay business.

I'm surprised you can cut alfalfa Wednesday and bale Friday near the great lakes by just baling an raking. Shoot, if I did that moisture would be in the 20's.

Were you able to cure that 90% alfalfa field in 48 hours last week? Is it 1st cut still?

Also still wondering how wide is your haybine, how wide is your swath, what type of rake you use, how heavy your bales are and how soon you put them in a mow after you bale them.

Cheers


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## bowlnchamp219 (Jun 17, 2010)

rank said:


> When you said you've never seen a tedder in Michigan before, it sounded to me like you were drawing on years of experience and I thought it strange, what with Michigan being on the great lakes and all. I agreed with your neighbor "hayray's" post in this thread who said it was actually quite humid in MI and 45% humidity was a rare day. That's when I checked your profile and saw that you were a high school student in your first year in the hay business.
> 
> I'm surprised you can cut alfalfa Wednesday and bale Friday near the great lakes by just baling an raking. Shoot, if I did that moisture would be in the 20's.
> 
> ...


I have a 9ft wide haybine.....Swath is ummm what is that, remember first year and Im bad with names. I do not have a rake I used a JD 950 and Im looking at buying a NH next. The bales were LIGHT. Light as my orchard grass and the are normal small squares. I put them In the mow as soon as I got the wagons back to the barn, so within the hour.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

We need to revisit some basic rules that apply.

Raking is but for sure using a tedder the hay, the school answer is, if the hay is above 40% moisture the leaf loss will be minimal. 
What they are really saying is if the leaves are 60% moisture and the stems are 20% moisture there will not be significant leaf shatter. The more usual 40% moisture is leaves at 20% moisture and the stems still at 60% moisture. In this case there WILL be significant leaf shatter, with measurable decrease in yield, and quality. 
In the real world if raking or using the tedder is done soon after cutting, when the stems are still at 80% moisture and the leaves are 60% moisture or better THEN there is minimal leaf loss. 
Real world situation #2, If the Relative HUMIDITY, down with the hay, is at or above 90% RH then the hay's moisture will be, at least, 40%. (Fully cured hay laying in a windrow or out in a wide swath will have truly damp and limber leaves in the early morning dew.) In this case the stems probably have not much more than 20% moisture, but the leaves will have close to 60% moisture.

Baling: (going beyond the original raking rules of thumb) 
In the real world when the Relative HUMIDITY is 65% RH the hay will have 20% moisture. Good to go for small square bales. ( ? ) True but what we really want is less than 10% stem moisture, and if the leaves are not over 30% moisture, THEN the hay will bale with only a reasonable lose of leaves. BUT if the stems are still damp enough to be 15 to 20 percent moisture and the leaves are 20 maybe 25 percent moisture then you will have problems with excessive sweating, with related heating, and related loss of dry matter and quality. 
When we get into real problems baling is when the stems are still 30% moisture and the leaves are 10% or less moisture, THIS will result in a baled up stems that will heat, mold and or ignite.

HERE in the CenTex climate, we need to be finished raking by usually 9 AM to retain leaves. We usually can start baling between 11 AM & 1 PM CDT. Usually by 3 PM the hay will be way too dry to bale. 
It is not unusual for a "Hay Man" to pull into a field with a set of rakes and start raking, right after his lunch. When done raking, maybe by 3 PM he will commence baling, using a round baler and string tie not net wrap. 
In this case hay that started as 10% protein hay ends up as 7% protein. What started out as a 100 RB yield will be lucky to have 65 bales sitting out there in all their magistracy. 
HERE hay that should have had a $22/bale harvest cost, ends up as $33.85 harvest cost, and the hay buyer will want to pay only $35/able for the "hay". 
Hay that is reasonably managed, and baled with net can have a harvest cost in the $17/bale range, and the hay will be really be worth over $60/bale. 
Working both smart and hard pays.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Hay Wilson, are these published numbers? How are you getting the numbers comparisons of relative humidity vs. windrow, stem, leaves? Generally in Michgian for those of us that do not use a tedder we are required to at least rake. The general procedure is to lay hay out in wide swath, wait two days or until swath is 75% dry and then rake the 3rd morning once the dew point is reached, common around 10 to 11 A:M. Alot of times the first hour of raking you are raking too much dew back into the windrow and the last hour you are knocking too many leaves off, just a compromise because most of the time we can't start baling until 3:00 P:M and stop by 8:00, or push it and lighten up bale density inorder to bale longer.


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

hayray said:


> Hay Wilson, are these published numbers? How are you getting the numbers comparisons of relative humidity vs. windrow, stem, leaves? Generally in Michgian for those of us that do not use a tedder we are required to at least rake. The general procedure is to lay hay out in wide swath, wait two days or until swath is 75% dry and then rake the 3rd morning once the dew point is reached, common around 10 to 11 A:M. Alot of times the first hour of raking you are raking too much dew back into the windrow and the last hour you are knocking too many leaves off, just a compromise because most of the time we can't start baling until 3:00 P:M and stop by 8:00, or push it and lighten up bale density inorder to bale longer.


Thats pretty much how its done here, But i do start baling around 12 or 1, I also ted when its thick.


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## gman1772 (Mar 20, 2010)

I have damn near been run off custom jobs over the years for raking too early in the day, only to have the same owner say it's the best hay he ever had that afternoon after I finished baling. I have used a moisture meter in the past to gauge it, (the batteries are dead- gauge it by sight and touch). I cut almost all Bahia and Bermuda here on the TX gulf coast and I am a firm believer in leaving the swath as wide as possible as the best curing solution. I can bale Bahia pea green behind my GMD 600 HD cutter at about 12% moisture on the meter in a 4x5 bale. Tedders help when you are pushing hay to avoid weather, but trash leaf content in hay that is close but still wet. MoCo's lay in a nice tight windrow, but are the bane of grass hay. A disc cutter or trailed disc cutter are the way to go unless bailng cane or sorghum hay.

Wilson is not pulling numbers out of his butt. He sounds like an educated farmer.


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## jeroberts (May 20, 2010)

Would the rotary rake do the same thing as a tedder? I am also new to haying, this is my first year. Any advise would be more than welcomed....Thanks


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

No, a rotary rake converges the hay swath layed out from the mower into a windrow, the tedder looks a lot like a rotary rake because both have the rotary teeth. The rotary rake staks the hay up on against a curtain while the tedder takes a swath laid down by the mover and widens the swath out wider then what the mower conditioner can do. There are units that a a rake tedder combo, you don't see too many of those units around.


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## saltwater (Mar 26, 2010)

Just curious but I have not heard one mention of an inverter being used. I have never used one but have wanted to. Just seems logical to move the hay over to dry ground after a day. Seems like there would be less color and leaf loss. I can always tell which hay was raked and which was not. I normally only rake my turnrows because they have been run over. Is an inverter an outdated piece of equipment?


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I think the problem with the inverter is that it is simply too slow and a guy can't get enough done with one in a day the same rules would apply as raking, so you'd be limited with the number of hours it could be used. And mnay of use would not have the area to flop the hay onto..... the outside roll would either be in the weeds or under the trees, etc, etc.

Rodney


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## rob_cook2001 (Apr 30, 2010)

I have used inverters before and do not like them at all. Very slow and like to plug up in thick hay.
Robert


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

saltwater said:


> Just curious but I have not heard one mention of an inverter being used.


What's an inverter?

Lew


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Has what looks like a regular pickup on it, then a cross belt takes it to the side where a adjustable chute delivers it to the ground. If everything is adjusted correctly, it flips the row exactly 180 degrees over.


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## SchoolhouseFarm (Apr 25, 2010)

Here in Massachusetts we didn't have tedders when I was a small kid. They came in around 1975. Today, I don't know how we'd live without them. The available good days are few and the humidity is bad. We usually can't bale past 6pm because of the ground moisture that starts when the air temp starts dropping.

I have "rotary rake" NH 254 that is convertable for raking or tedding. As it doesn't pile hay against a board like others do it is a decent tedder. Tedding with the tine bars in the cam operated position help alfalfa shatter losses. Doesn't spread as nice, but much easier on the leaves.


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## SchoolhouseFarm (Apr 25, 2010)

Here in Massachusetts we didn't have tedders when I was a small kid. They came in around 1975. Today, I don't know how we'd live without them. The available good days are few and the humidity is bad. We usually can't bale past 6pm because of the ground moisture that starts when the air temp starts dropping.

I have "rotary rake" NH 254 that is convertable for raking or tedding. As it doesn't pile hay against a board like others do it is a decent tedder. Tedding with the tine bars in the cam operated position help alfalfa shatter losses. Doesn't spread as nice, but much easier on the leaves.


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## manveru (Dec 8, 2009)

nobody really uses a tedder in my area, its usually just rake and bale, actually we don't even rake most of the time for our small squares


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

New Holland had those inverters out at the local dealership for a while but I don't see anymore. I think Meyer also had one years ago. Anyone have any experience with them? I still just rake and no tedding and seem to get by pretty good with out one.


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## Ridgerunner (Jul 10, 2009)

The past few years I have cut all-day one day. Tedded the next morning from 4:00 a.m. until 10:00 a.m. Raked the third or fourth day from 10:00 a.m. til 3:00 p.m. and baled from 11:00 a.m. until dark. I realize that there is leaf loss in the afternoon, but I am limited on available days. I have 60% orchard grass and 40% red clover.

I cut with an M&W HC701 disc mower, ted with a Fransgard T-1000, and bale with a Hesston 5580. I have a CaseIH 1490 haybine, but breakdowns have prevented its use so far.

I read as many posts as I can find time and greatly appreciate all of the insight. It seems that everyone has an opinion and everyone's region requires a slightly different technique. I studied very hard at finding the perfect way to cut hay, but it seems that you are always making a trade-off. For example, a narrow swath dries the ground but a wide swath dries the hay. The stomata theory would indicate that a wide swath is best for the first 18 hours or so. However, if the ground is very moist a narrow swath might be best until the sun dries the ground, especially in very thick hay. Minimal movement of the hay is best for leaf loss but tedding and raking are better for curing.

I am confused about the idea that raking before the dew point is reached will rake dew into the hay. My experience seems to indicate that moisture from the dew dries off very easily, usually by 1:00 p.m. A little dew in the hay may actually allow me to bale later in the afternoon without leaf loss. It seems that most of the dew is absorbed into the leaves rather than the stems. In terms of trade-offs, would it be better to rake very early in the morning so leaves are not lost, then bale in the middle of the afternoon. This method might be better for time management. Might also save some leaves when baling. Any truth to my idea that most of the dew goes into the leaves?

This has been an excellent post. Please remember to be open-minded, truthful, and tolerent of the newbies still learning their lessons.

As for equipment, I believe that new equipment must stay busy all the time. Small time farmers can't make this happen. If you only use the tractor to make 100 acres of hay per year, you will have a very hard time making a profit with a new tractor. If you can, you have either a great product or an excellent market. For my 70 acre farm, I am content to use 20-30 year old implements behind 1960's tractors. I enjoy the equipment maintenance aspects of farming as much as the hay making aspects. I think it adds alot of pride to the business. For health reasons, I would like to progress to a cab tractor someday. Maybe by then my 4020 will be as collectable as a '57 T-bird or a '70 Cuda and I can make an even trade!


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