# How to Stack hay to prevent heating --- pallets?



## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

Well I'm rather new to the hay-making thing, and would like some advice for the 3x4x9 large square bales.

Under a tarp, I stack them 6 high, 2 wide with a small space between for air flow, and I've been finding a number of bales with heated centers (see pic for illustration). The hay was put up wet (20-23% according to Gazeeka) and preservative was applied.

The hay that was stacked in the shed 3-high an with >6 inches of space all around them was baled a little wetter yet they turned out fantastic (no surprise).

So I'm looking for suggestions. I'm planning on using pallets underneath the bales to both keep the bales off the dirt (my horse people at the track don't take bottoms) and also to hopefully improve air flow. With the stack being 6-high, will putting the bottoms on pallets make a difference on anything other than the bottom bales?

Would it be noticeably beneficial to put the top 3 on pallets also? (a pallet between 3rd and 4th bales)

With the bales being so high I don't like to stack them "loosely", but if I were to stand 2*4s or 4*4s (boards) vertically between one set of 6 an the next 6, I would be able to push them tightly together without them being airtight. Would that provide sufficient ventilation? (air would have to be going in from top, not from side as the boards would block it).

I'm willing to do the added work and minimal cost of the pallets if it's going to help, but if you guys have already tried it and not found sufficient gain from it....

Thanks,
-Josh


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I used pallets for the first time this year on hay stacked in the sheds and outside. For the horse market its a must. That bottom bale will always have that dirty look and absorb a lot of dirt smell.

I'm sure you already figured out what a PIA it is to put pallets down when stacking hay. It really requires a couple extra guys to keep ahead of the loader.

As for air flow, I think you are walking a fine line baling at that moisture to begin with. I don't have much faith in acid either. The only way I think you could consistently make 20% or above work would be to switch to 3x3 and don't pile very high. You have a lot of hay in that package, way too much to try and vent out excess moisture. It might work some of time, but I'll bet sometimes isn't good enough. The weather plays a big role in how well your stacks keep as well. Your plan might work fine if you get a stretch of dry windy days after stacking. I had a closely monitored stack start to go bad 45 days after harevest when the high humidity moved in and stayed for a solid month. It was baled at 14% according to lab report.

As for dairy customers, they would certainly like all the hay on pallets. But they will likely not pay extra for it


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## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

Yea, it's going to a PIA for sure.








But I feel it might be a necessary evil. I need to do something, and this is likely the cheapest thing to try, especially since I need to get my bottom bales off the ground anyhow.

So far I'm thinking I'll need 2 pallets under each bale, and the bale fork we use fits perfect to handle 2 pallets side by side. Hoping that if they're stacked right beforehand, just use the loader to place the pallets every 6 bales.

Don't totally need to keep in front of the baler, plan on just getting them into the shed the day they're baled (even just by pulling the semi-trucks in gets 102 bales inside, plus if I use my Gooseneck), then I'd move the bales out to be stacked under a tarp when the weather is good.

Agreed with walking a fine line, but like you saw yourself, even some testing 14% started to go bad. I'm torn on the Silo-Guard so far. I've baled at probably 24% an had it stay good if left in single sets of 3 high, but if it has to be stacked right away then even 20% with silo-guard hasn't been 100%. I'd like to bale my hay dry, but to be honest, 95% of the days I bale, I get a solid rain later that night. I baled a couple fields this year that I stopped baling partway through because it was pushing up to 25% moisture. Took home what I had, came back the next day an it was practically sitting in water. That's the story of hay around here, I'm sure Iowa is the same.

So it's a toss up. Bale it wet an risk having 20% of the bale with heat damage, or leave it in the swath an let it rain on it for a week. Most of the hay that I'm selling is going to horses, race horses and breeding horses and riding stables, and that's baled at around 21-22% average moisture with Silo-Guard, then put in these big stacks (which I know are bad, I don't have much choice). But some of the bales have hot spots, an I really don't like not knowing what quantity of what quality I have until I'm actually taking the stacks apart to load trucks.

Agree with you,
-Josh


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

There are so many factors that enter in to what kind of results we end up with. Wilson has spoke many times on the type of moisture that the hay is carrying, plant moisture or surface moisture. I really think that if the hay is cured of plant moisture is will easily keep at higher moistures. But if you can still scrape the stems it isn't as dry as you think and will be a problem if baled. I have also noticed that higher quality hay with higher sugar content is more prone to spoilage. I'm not 100% on this but have made this observation frequently. I have also baled hay that I was sure would heat and planned it would be grinding hay. The bales kept fine although the quality was only 120rfv. The monitor was consistently reading in the mid 20s that day.

I could go on forever here, but the bottom line for making good hay in our climate is a wide swath of hay conditioned with Circle C rolls and a timely pass with the tedder. It's the best chance we have to get it right.

The pallets will not solve all of your problems, but like you said it won't cost much for what it would gain. Like you said, two pallets under each stack works good. Be aware though that if the ground is a little soft they will push into the ground and your stack might tip.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

If you don't like the "pallet rodeo" of piling and placing pallets, my neighbor has a neat trick that he does that I had never seen before. He uses truck tires, 10.00X20 etc large highway truck tires and it works. He never picks them up (or rarely), but that is with round bales. They squash down some but never right out flat, seems to work for him and since he has lots of truck tires why not, I have pallets so I use pallets.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

*Wilson has spoke many times on the type of moisture that the hay is carrying*
There are three types of moisture. Stem moisture is what can cause the most trouble.
Then there is dew or humidity type moisture. 
Add the two you have average moisture.

I have stacked a lot of hay on pallots and do not like them. I much prefer a 4" deep layer of rocks to hyold the hay a bove the soil mloisture.
Not perfi8ct but for my use less work.

When I used a Silo Guard preservative it worked to a point. As I understood the theory was the bacteria in the organic preservative was the bacteria grows at every point or location that mold would grow keeping the mold out of the hay.

The idea of using the acid is the low pH fumes prevent the mold from growing.

There is another option if you are going to tarp the stack, & that is to fumigate the stack with anhydrous ammonia. That will kill all the fungus and bacteria.

Hopefully when applying an acid your on the go moi8sture tester is reading the moisture on the cut side of the bale.

Your normal hay curing conditions are would be like my worst night mare conditions.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

If all the hay ws baled about the same, and the stuff in the shed was nice and the stuff under a tarp did not, then both of us know what the ultimate solution is. To keep the bottom bales better than pallets will keep them off the ground, and maybe if you have a pad already, maybe a few inches of asphalt would be just as good. I have my doubts about the 2nd pallet in the stack and the 2x4 or 4x4 idea, but that is something that you ought to experiment with, as I doubt you'll find a definative answer. The 2nd pallet would be easiest to implement, since you think the bale fork would work, so I'd try that one.

Rodney


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## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

IAhaymakr - That's an interesting point you make about the high sugar hay more prone to spoilage, I've found the same. Anyway, there's little more I can really do about getting the hay drier, what I'm looking for is suggestions for stacking to reduce the chances of heating, especially from those of you that make higher moisture with preservative.

Rodney - Well I agree with you completely, but that ultimate solution costs a lot more than pallets does. ;-) But that said, I think more importantly the thing about the bales in the shed is that they were only stacked 3 high, and had space all around them (6-10" on all sides). The other big factor is that the bales in the shed were second cut (baled the bitter end of September) so the air temperature stayed cool.

Don't have a pad already, the bales are going right on the ground. We typically don't see spoilage on more than the bottom 3-4 inches at most.

I'm using a Gazeeka Microwave moisture tester to test the bales, so it should be accurate, none of this stem/dew crap.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

*I'm using a Gazeeka Microwave moisture tester to test the bales, so it should be accurate*,
Accurate as to average moisture. But consider this the leaves may be 10% moisture and the stems be 30% moisture, and the research quality will report 20% moisture. 
The process of baling can shatter off a good percnetage of the leaves resulting in a bale of damp stems all of which probably will test 25% moisture and have problems with heating and moid.

I like the on the go moisture that reads out with a needle. It is interesting to watch the bale moisture wonder. 
I think I would like to run a baler with a Microwave Moisture tester. I'm using a Gazeeka Microwave moisture tester to test the bales, so it should be accurate,The on the go system I have heard of are for large high density bales. I bale with a NH 315 14 X 18 X 35 inch bale with 35 bales/ton.

We have a HERE & THERE situation.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Josh you are still missing an important point here. We will assume that your Gazeeka is as accurate as it is claimed to be, and say that it is reading 20%. That hay will most likely not store well if the moisture content is in the stems in the form of plant juice or whatever that hasn't had time to leave. However, if the hay was conditioned really well and dried, cured, whatever, down to say 10% or under and then picked up enough dew to test 20% it will very likely make nice soft hay. There is a difference here that the Gazeeka can't determine.

Spoilage is a funny thing. We must remember that it is bacterial action that is our enemy here. Wilson commented on the acids and other products that we use to attempt to manipulate the bacteria, and on how they are supposed to work. None of them are consistent enough for me to take them seriously beyond a couple points out of my comfort zone. I never could embrace the idea of applying that stinky acid to try and make sweet smelling hay anyway.

I hope you come up with a stack plan that makes a difference. That would be a simple enough solution. My gut feeling is still that you have way too much hay in that big bale to have any hope of measurable improvement.


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## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

IAhaymakr - I'm not missing your point, I'm simply trying to steer this thread back on track. As moronic as I'm sure it sounds, for the purposes of *this thread* I don't care about the types of moisture or the amounts of moisture, simply looking to see how others stack/store their big square bales.

I'm hearing everything you're saying and I'm finding it both interesting and informative, however I feel there is nothing I can really do about / with this information. We don't bale with the dew "here", we don't get a chance to dry it down to 10% an pick up the dew in the evening / night / morning. "Here" with weather the way it is, the only "technique" of baling hay at the right moisture is hope the hell it dries down enough that you can bale it before the rain without having it heating. I lay the widest possible swath that I can (8'6) out of a [Hesston] double conditioner (I have alfalfa/grass mixtures and don't feel the circle-C would work better for the grass) and use the preservative to help me push it. I do not intentionally bale my hay at 20% or more, if I can get it to 15% all the better, but with storm clouds rolling in I do what I can.

I bought a round baler this year to help, both allowing me to leave more drying time before I "have" to start picking up the swaths, and also for the tougher hay, the round bales can take a bit more moisture than the 3x4s and can be left to breathe for at least a few days (unlike my squares which need to be stacked under cover within a couple hours of baling).

*Correct me if I'm wrong*, but I feel the only variable left for me to manipulate is stacking. I've seen the difference [as we all know] it makes in the hay leaving it to breathe for a few days vs stacking it right after baling. What I'm hoping for is a way of stacking that will give me added air flow.

Teddering for me is not an option. Between the purchase of a tedder, making another trip through the field, the leaf loss, and the amount of extra dirt/trash I would wind up with given the state of my fields (mole-hills), it wouldn't make sense to ted the hay. I've had some very good luck with my hay as it is and I've yet to have customer complaints, other than "one of the bales in that load had 8-10 inches in the center that was hard and dusty, I'll be out next week to pick up my next load." That said, I do have bales that I hold back and feed to our cows because I suspect heated centers, and that is what I'm trying to reduce. Seems I have to make 1,200 bales in order to have 1,000 bales to sell to the horses.

Sorry for the story, but I hope it cleared up my situation, I wasn't trying to be rude as I really do appreciate the advice you've given.
Thanks,
-Josh


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Still thinking of your situatuion, I have more to add. Your climate sounds like the same as here, except maybe we have a little longer season. I understand and appreciate your struggles. One thing you might try that has worked well here is making your stacks three rows wide, with the center row six bales high and the outside two rows five bales high. The downside is it requires a larger tarp (35x54 is what I use) and takes a little longer to pile as I like to handle bales three at a time so this requires me to split up my three bale handling. The advantage is you will have a pile that has a peak which allows air flow along the sides at the top, sheds water and snow better, and handles the wind A LOT better. I like to leave a little gap between each row as well. Another side benefit is that the middle row will have no exposure at all. With that tarp size your nine foot bales might need to be reduced to eight to get them under the tarp if you leave much of a gap between the rows. You will notice right away that with this method your tarp won't billow up in the wind like you see with a double row flat top stack. Really extends tarp life and eliminates tarp failure.

I won't beat this idea any more after this, but if you could find a way to spread that hay out more during or after cutting you would really appreciate the results. The real icing on that cake is full width conditioning (rolls as wide as the cutterbar). Big M2 or triple mowers are the best way to get there.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I think you will find that you can gain more than you loose by running a really wide tedder following your swather. You are looking at a loss of maybe 2% of DM at that time. The hay will be in the 70% moisture range, and tough. 
The object is to get the hay moisture down as far as possible by that first sunset. The stomas in the leaves will be open as long as they see sunshine, direct sunshine. You can loose 30% if your moisture through the leaves which is through the stomas. 
As for picking up ASH (dirt) with tedder that is an operator problem not a machinery problem. Run the tedder PTO at 300 -350 rpm and the tines clear of the ground. 
A 2 ton cutting at 50% swath width requires a total of .79" of pan evaporation while a 100% swath width requires only 51" of total pan evaporation TO Cure The Hay Down To 20% moisture. 
Assuming .28"/day pan evaporation, which is .14" for day one, & .28" each following days. 
Cut it today being sure to be done by 3 PM, leave the hay out flat all of day two, Rake into a windrow the morning of day three. Bale on the morning of day four. 
A 1.5 Ton/A cutting will require a total of .59" for a 50% swath, and .39" for a 100% swath width. In this case rake the second morning and bale the third day.

None of us get to use the ideal, we do the best with what we have.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

I think I see where you're at now Josh, I didn't notice that you were in Alberta before. For anyone else who is unaware, these guys were hit VERY hard by constant rain, flooding of biblical proportions (so I understand). Any hay that was cut was washed away in the windrow. Horses were let free, droped off at farms due to the cost of hay that was as high as $10 a small square. Beef lost weight, dairy production suffered severly. Hard times to say the least.
Back to the point, Extra air flow through the bales in any way shape or form will help. It will be a big PIA but, you can only do what you can. I am not sure that it will help enough to offset the time and labour involved, but it won't make things worse by any means. soft core round bales may be a better baling system in these cases. Best of luck.

I get my information second-hand from a good friend of mine that lives in Lethbridge. I do know that there were a few truck loads of hay put together here and sent out west, so I assume that I am not far off.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I have no experience with large squares, only with rounds so I'm not voting. I have a feeling though unless you go with a pallet between every bale, just placing em on bottom won't help much. Given the volume you produce I imagine this won't help you much but I used to make 21-22% hay without acid in round bales, simply sat each bale on it's own pallet in a single layer and let em sit till dry. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't.

Acid salesmen will tell yah if your bales are carmelizing you're not applying enough acid, course we all know most salesmen are full of sh*t. Even when using acid if I bale any hay much over 22% I set them off to the side till they are stable. I'm not sure additional airflow actually helps in drying the bale much faster, but it definitely helps the bale to shed any heat faster.


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## Hayguy (Jun 4, 2008)

I really don't think leaving a space between the bale stacks is going to help much. Those big bales are packed so tight that only pressurized air like in the big dryers use could have much effect. Stacking the bales on pallets or tires should help keep them clean and from wicking up soil moisture.
Baling hay above 20% moisture is asking for trouble - especially with big squares. Your applicator has to be set up perfect and calibrated right on the money to give complete coverage. I've seen a lot of customers who were unhappy with moldy big squares from some other hay suppliers.
End of sermon.


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## NORTHERN ALLIANCE (Jun 16, 2010)

I have been watching this thread looking and waiting for the perfect answer.............But am still waiting on the solution to a floor for stacking big squares in a closed shed. I am currently planning a hay shed but have not decided on the heighth (14' or 16') or the floor. will be stacking 3'x3' with a skidloader.Any opinions would be appreciated.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

*Baling hay above 20% moisture is asking for trouble - especially with big squares. Your applicator has to be set up perfect and calibrated right on the money to give complete coverage*.

The school solution for large sq bales is 14%-16% moisture. They mention the 3X3 being in the same category with round bales at 16%-18% moisture. 
Using that logic and the idea that 22% moisture is the upper limit for PRACTICAL preservative use, for small square bales. Then extrapolating that I would say 20% is probably the upper limit for high density bales.

In theory we can push our luck a little more using the Canadian Spike to force a hole through the bale to give an extra avenue for moisture to escape. It is not a Canada Canadian, but a man named Canadian near Sacramento California that came up with the spike. I believe on the large square bales they use two spikes to have two vapor outlets. You will have to contact the California Extension for any information.

We are painted into a corner regarding moisture percentages. Consider this, we need to know how much of that moisture is stem moisture, and how much is from the dew. It is the stem moisture that cause much of the heating and mold.

*Northern Alliance*, I am afraid you will not be satisfied with using pallets on the bottom of your stacks. 
They are time consuming and extra work. 
The ultimate solution is to have a board plank floor. Probably a corrugated plank floor. 
More economical would be a 4" deep layer of rocks. Base ball size on the large size and golf ball on the smaller size. Maybe septic tank evaporation field rocks.

*decided on the height (14' or 16') For very little more money you could go to 21" high and increase your options for later systems*.

Why not go to 17 to 21 feet high and have room to grow with very little added cost.

I would also suggest that your sides not be air tight, you will want all the air flow you can get.

Something to remember is you will have to consider your climate and management needs not something that is appropriate in Maine or Georgia, let alone in New Mexico or Arizona. 
If your humidity seldom goes below 50% you have one set of needs. If your humidity seldom goes above 50% you are looking at very different needs.

In the early days of the Hay & Forage Grower publication there were two researchers talking about storing hay. One at Michigan State, & the other at Artesia New Mexico. Much of what worked in NM did not transfer to Michigan.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I know this is off topic of this thread.



NORTHERN ALLIANCE said:


> I am currently planning a hay shed but have not decided on the heighth (14' or 16') or the floor. will be stacking 3'x3' with a skidloader.Any opinions would be appreciated.


I went 14 on one building -- wish I had gone 16 now -- you don't have to use it, but that extra clearance is there when you need it.

Ralph


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

You guys got me thinking about RR ties. I wonder if you could lay 2 sets of 3 ties at the same width as the loader tires and fill the rest with rock of some sort. I could start with a laser graded base 6" low of finished height and solidly set my rows of ties and then back fill with rock about 4-5 inches. I think I could buy #1 ties for $10 or less. It would be reasonable stacking 8 4x4's or 12 3x4's on $60 worth of wood that should last for years especially in a barn. The bottom bales saved about pays in the first year. I think I will run an experiment in my barn this year


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

JoshA, have you looked into a Recon 300 made by Agshield out of Canada? I use one here in texas a couple hundred miles from the Gulf where its hot, humid and we are prone to have pop up showers at anytime. I have the slinger attachment on the back of mine. It lays the hay out like a blanket, drys down nice and even throughout the field. Its a pretty expensive machine but about 75% of the time I am able to get my hay baled within 3 days instead of 4. Makes a big difference when your talking about gettin some good hay wet. Look up Agshield on the internet give them a call and demo one. I use mine the 2nd day after the hay is cut. You could try it that way and also try it the day you cut it to see which way benefits you the most. I'm using mine in bermuda grass, it should work better for you in alfalfa.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Josh,
I was unawar that the bales in the shed were only 3 high, and the others were 6 high. The RR tie idea is for sure interesting. The thing to consider is that the pallets HAVE to be dry - or you might get spoilage from the moisture in the boards. We made a bunch of wooden pallets for the stackwagon, and the 1st year almost every bale on the bottom row had spoilage from he boards, cause the wood wasn't completely dry yet, and if they ever sit out in the rain, that's the same thing. I know you said that the tedder isn't really a option for you, so if the pallets don't work, I don't know what will. I'm pretty confident that the tedder would help, but leaf shatter would be a BIG issue, and the circle C might as well - the big thing with grasses is that the joints on the stems don't get as dry as they should in 1st cutting. Maybe you would be able to get the alfalfa drier, and that would help from making things spoil?

In regards to the other poster - make the shed 16ft at least.

Rodney


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I believe the loss of dry matter from respiration can be a lot more than the small amount lost in tedding.

Try the Kentucky Alfalfa Conference Proceedings, the last talk, by Dan Undersander from Wisconsin, page 34 thru 38 What's New In Forage Equipment,

The key is to quickly dry the hay down the first day to limit energy lose from respiration.


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