# 4-Hour Hay--what do you think?



## downtownjr

Four-Hour Haying Becomes Reality

A new process that turns standing forage into dry hay in four hours performed well in its initial runs this fall, says one of its developers. "It's working beautifully," says Jeff Warren, a partner in Top Quality Hay Processors, LLC (TQHP), Geneva, NY. "The hay we're producing is beyond anybody's wildest expectations."

The new haying method features a 184.5'-long radiant-heat oven that dries alfalfa or timothy to 10-11% moisture in about an hour. The crop is mowed with a modified windrower that conveys it directly into dump wagons or trucks; then it's delivered to a processing plant. Immediately after drying, the hay is packaged in 40-lb bales for the horse and dairy markets or bagged for the small animal market.

Warren says the company expects to harvest 2,500 acres of alfalfa and about 2,000 acres of timothy next year. This winter, a second drying line will be added to the processing plant, which eventually will have six lines. A second shift will be added, and the plant and will operate around the clock six days a week from May to November. Concrete has been poured for a second plant in an adjacent county, and TQHP will begin selling franchises to groups of growers who will build plants to process their own hay.

For more on TQHP, watch for the January issue of Hay & Forage Grower. 
This article is from Hay and Forage Grower E-Weekly


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## BCFENCE

That would be awesome but could you imagine what the costs would have to be, By the time you cut it, haul it, then not to mention the upkeep and operating costs of an operation like that. THOMAS


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## chetlenox

Downtown,

I think I'm with Thomas, it seems like the costs would be very high. Sometimes it's tough to judge the economies of scale of these sorts of "mass production" techniques though. Might be cheaper than we think once they get fired up and are cranking out hay by the 1000s of tons.

I'll bet the quality of the hay, once they get the process down, is very high. Just because they can control all their input variables much better than a guy relying on the weather. And the article in the eHay Weekly said they are target the ultra-premium market, which makes sense. I'll bet they have to sell their hay for pretty big bucks to pay for the equipment and energy inputs. I imagine for some customers though, that makes sense. I mean, what do you feed a thoroughbred racehorse that is worth $200k?

Just kindof funny to compare such high-tech techniques to how most hay around here is made (small scale operations, a guy with some equipment that takes care of 10-100 acres and hawks his hay to neighbors with horses). I personally think the process used for both is pretty cool. I wouldn't mind a tour of their operations, once they get going.

Chet.


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## chetlenox

Hey, I found their website and it describes their process pretty well, complete with video clips from a local TV segment. Looks pretty cool to me. I'm just an amateur grass hay guy, but those alfalfa bales sure look good to me!

http://www.tqhp.com/










Chet.


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## swmnhay

Reminds me of another article in H&F Grower.A few yrs ago a group of farmers were going to dry hay in lg sq bales to make high quality dairy hay.The dryers were 200K apiece.well a couple yrs later there sale bill was out Secured Creditors,they had 3 dryers3-4 swathers and balers and tractors everything new.Obviously things didn't work,probably couldn't sell ALL the hay at a premium to pay for the equipment and extra cost of drying.I figured they had close to 1.5 M in equipment on sale bill.This was in NW Iowa.You have to have a market for this high premium hay.It will take a heck of 200K horses to eat up a couple thousand acres of hay.Maybe this hay will be too good to rich and not enough fiber,and cause digestive problems.I know of dairies were the nutritionist has them put the best hay that they can and after awile they have gut problems and the vet has them adding straw to the ration to tone it down.


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## JamesIII

Well who would have ever thought that we could justify drying corn. Ear corn dries just as well. We all know the facts on controlling field losses and getting a more consistent product that corn drying brought about, I suppose the same could be true in the hay industry. If you want to be a megafarm in a humid area you are going to have to control some of the issues with mother nature. Will it pan out? Is there enough market out for the high cost product? Can field losses be cut enough to offset some drying cost? Will the price of their inputs remain low enough, fuel prices are very volitale? It will be interesting to see. Just imagine the overhead to run that operation let alone the fact that the alfalfa fields have to be perfect to justify the value of the product.

We had an alfalfa dehydration plant about 20 miles west of us. They harvested a lot of alfalfa and did quite well for many years, but they eventually succombed to high costs and competetion from drier regions.
JamesIII


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## plowboy14505

i called them last spring just too inquire on what they were charging per acre too purchase your hay out of the field and it was 150.00 to 200.00 per acre.


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## swmnhay

Seems LOW.200 divided by 6 ton is 33.33 per ton.Lot of variables fertilizer,wheather,etc


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## TBrown

Is that 150-200 dollars per year per acre or per cutting per acre?


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## plowboy14505

from what that jeff warren told me that is 150 -200.00 per acre per year not cutting my farm is within the 25 mile radius of them and he wasnt singing the same song i was


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## swmnhay

plowboy14505 said:


> from what that jeff warren told me that is 150 -200.00 per acre per year not cutting my farm is within the 25 mile radius of them and he wasnt singing the same song i was


What does crop ground rent for in this area? Seems to me this is a low ball bid for established hayground.And what is the price of hay in the area.I'm thinking it is on the high side.Hmmmmmm I guess they have to pay for the high priced equipment.Buy very low sell very high.


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## plowboy14505

well before i started farming i was getting 25.00/acre but we had drainage issues and it was heavy ground and the traffic was getting out of hand for him too drag his big iron down the road so.but it grows awesome hay and i can make more doing it myself we had a 12 acre alfalfa field and we yielded over 600 bales on it 150-200/acre didnt make much sense too me the only way i would sell it too them if i couldnt get it off because of health problems or whatever


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## OneManShow

Think I'll stick with the sun to dry our hay-3 days for free! 4 hours for $$$$-wonder what the monthly payment is on that contraption?


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## HALLSHAY

I am very skeptical of this whole process. Way too much money, equipment, and labor to support with only 5000 tons worth of production. There recent press release says that they plan on ramping from 2000 bales to 250000 bales. 100 tons to 4800 tons. 5000 tons of hay at $300 per ton is 1.5million gross. Not only do they have to pay the interest on the equipment money, they will have probably bank roll the product and the processing expense also. 
The hay quality is probably excellent, on a small scale. I believe their biggest problem will come with the storage of the hay. I have never seen the process, but I am guessing that the hay must be dried completely and then steamed to bring the proper moisture back to bale. 1 point too much moisture will destroy a stack of fine stemed immature hay. Any mistakes will cost dearly because of the investment associated with processing. 
The bales look like super soft 4th cutting that weigh about 80 pounds. Good luck stacking them more than 6 high. It takes 10-12 square feet to store a ton of hay if you are stacking 16 feet high.
I wish them luck, but I believe it will not be that economical. They may find a niche market to sell their 5000 tons, but they better figure out how to put about $500 per ton in their pocket, and convince the farmer he only needs about $40 per ton on his share.
Just my 2 cents which is only worth about 2 cents.


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## Production Acres

I do not understand all this press when they have only produced 2000 bales of hay. These people may have a good idea - it might work, but when they have produced 250, 000 bales of hay we will all know if it might work. A farmer that bales 10 acres of hay a year cannot even begin to speculate on the problems associated with baling 3000 acres of hay. That is like a guy doing marriage counseling for other people who has only been married a week.
Stop the press! When their customers' barns are full and have been empitied with sucess, run a press bullentin - but not until.


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## hay wilson in TX

I do not think they will be much more fuel efficient than a field cubing harvester and it uses 3 gallons of diesel per ton of cubes.

Take a look at the picture of the baler in operation. It is sure shattering leaves something fierce. To make this system work I would think they would have to dry the hay down to below 10% moisture and then use a mister to bring the moisture level back up to 16%. 
I say this because the leaves dry well before the stems. If dried down to 16% moisture and then baled the leaves will be too dry and still shatter and the stems will be too damp and mold. Ideally the leaves will have a higher moisture at baling than the stems.

In atmospherically cured hay it should have a nice even sun bleached color. There is no feed value in the color green. The animals are color blind and judge hay by it's feel, smell and finally taste.

I would think purchasing hay from the irrigated high desert western states would be more cost efficient even with the shipping. Those people with their low day and night humidity constant winds can put up hay that is just as pretty and green as shown in the picture.


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## Rodney R

Why are there so many replies by newly registered users? Not that it's a bad thing..... Seems like some advertising to me.

Rodney


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## ZB

I've deleted them Rodney - you're right, there was something suspicious about those posts. We'll see what those members post in the future to see if they are spammers or not.


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## HALLSHAY

Looks like they are back at it again. Instead of just advertising for TQHP, why not just identify yourself as a member of TQHP and get in on the conversation. Try your best to answer all the questions we throw at you. Make us believers!!!

The horses will be smiling and saying "MMMMM TOASTY!!!"

Press release: Yesterday, Halls Hay processed 2000 bales of sweet, green, 185rfv, high altitude, sun cured, #1 alfalfa/orchard. 2 guys 8 hours.


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## OhioHay

It sounds great in theory, but I think the overhead may kill the deal.


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## ZB

I've contacted TQHP and they've replied saying they don't have any idea who could be doing the posting, so I'm not sure who it is, but we will just keep getting rid of the posts - we want to keep the info on this board as unbiased and as real as possible.

Thanks to those of you who reported the posts. We appreciate the help in keeping everything clean.


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## LegumeGuru

I recently came across a very interesting audio clip of their process. Its an interview with TQHP's owner and it really tells a lot about these folks' way of haying.

I'm just adding this link here to throw other people's ways of doing things out there for others to see and so they can be amused by it. And also, with respect, to educate some of HayTalk's ametuers / newbies that are new to hay farming, as I know some of you are.

*http://cdn1.libsyn.com/trufflemedia...03&nva=20090718024903&t=07600af1c9e127f7c7aa8*

I think its interesting and is brilliant when it is broken down to the efficiency of hay production.

*http://www.tqhp.com/*


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## farmboy9510

I have many thounghts after reading this. I really do not think this guys knows anything about hay. If you ask me whether you dry hay like we do or you roast it like he does you need to understand hay. Another thing that i wondered about is in the video clip on the website he has some of the hay in his hand if you ask me it looks more like grass clippings then hay. My last thought is what is going to happen to the market for our hay if this goes through.

Alex


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## hay wilson in TX

In Chetlenox's posting you will notice a the hay really looks nice. Then take another look and they have plastic on the ground to collect the shattered leaves. Their baler appears to be a modified field baler.

My reservation was and is that 10 or 11% moisture is asking for excessive leaf shatter. Those with a propitiatory interest insisted that there is minimal or better leaf shatter. I contend that unless there is some form of rehydration of the leaves they will shatter. This could be a misting system or a steam system to put some moisture into the leaves. I am talking about rehydrating the leaves not necessarily the stems.

There are some rather simple rules of nature that we must work with. One is there will be leaf shatter if the leaves are too dry. To get around this is fairly simple, raise the humidity around the hay to close to 65%. This will allow the leaves to absorb enough moisture to loose their brittleness. When they do this by spraying the windrow ahead of baling, in our Western Desert Hay Country, they have to mist the windrow 15 minutes ahead of the baler, but no more than 30 minutes ahead of the baler. 
A misting or steam system should be able to raise the humidity of the sub micro climate to 90 to 95% which will assure leaf retention. The stems will still be dry and the average moisture level will still be in the 18% range.

The cost of the fuel is another entirely different matter.

I can see where this system might be a viable alternative in a land where the humidity does not go below 70% or possibly in a country where the humidity does not get above 40%.


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## stevemsinger

Farmboy, you raise a valid point. If this ever goes through, and I think eventually someone will find a way to make it work, expectations will be raised. We also raise fruit here and we have seen the same things over the years. When we were kids, no one cared if an apple had a small blemish and everyone loved fresh cider. Today no one will buy an apple that is not perfect, and making cider is against the law unless we put in very high dollar processing equipment. The same thing will happen to our hay business. Someone will feed a 200k horse some hay and blame an illness or a death on the hay that came from small farmers like us. Then there will be a move to go to controlled systems like the one talked about here. Nature has served us well for many years, why we want to change it, is beyond me. We can manage ourselves to meet the demands of nature, but when we try to improve on it we will pay a price sooner or later.


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## HorseLover

stevemsinger said:


> There will be a move to go to controlled systems like the one talked about here. Nature has served us well for many years, why we want to change it, is beyond me. We can manage ourselves to meet the demands of nature, but when we try to improve on it we will pay a price sooner or later.


Explain the price society will need to pay in the future and for what; how this is having to do with it? 
The weather -- (a part of nature) -- is the only variable in the equation that is problematic to hay growing / harvesting. Am I WRONG?









Did it ever occur to you under any valuable consideration that one important reason a system such as this is necessary is because there is the vastly renowned national and international, furthermore, hay shortage. Even more true for that of "top quality". I know because I own horses, myself. It is very difficault to find, or even come across others who have, good "top quality hay".









If you don't believe me then just quickly type in those keywords as a google search and news articles will appear on the topic. 
Someone on Yahoo Answers stated that "ive been reading on a forum about how some people complain about hay shortage, and not having enough to feed the horses. So the horses are given away, set free, or sent to slaughter. Apparently, animal shelters or sanctuary are full."








So, of course in addition to this, there is regional price flexuation. Different areas are affected differently. But, just Think about the different markets and animals integrated into this which are all impacted. A process like this would allow for consistently produced & readily available quality hay and greater ammounts of hay to be produced, like Warren said, he is yielding more hay and "5-6 cuttings" per season. In Upstate New York, actually being able to cut in december with a moderate climate is just absolutely unheard of, and not cutting because of it being cold in temp. (assuming excluding snow/frost) sounds like a lame excuse when they aren't relying on the sun. But just think of the excess tonnage / yield from that piece of land. It would make me happy as a farmer


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## bunchgrass1

First - blow drying hay is an incredible waste of fuel. The system would be great for times when weather causes problems but the sun is free.

Second - why do horse people (200K or $200) think that they need the highest "quality" hay? They're horses. Designed to eat forages in the 10% CP range, digest/extract the easily available nutrients and then out the back end. Look at their manure. Cattle are the ones who have a longer time investment in a given amount of feed - in the GIT for 40- 96 hrs.

Third - along the same lines as above, after they meet the dairy demand for hi quality hay (and even those guys aren't willing to pay $200/T after they looked at feed costs from last yr) who else will buy premium hay at that price?

I think the whole idea is ridiculous.

BTW - a number of years back there was a group in SE Idaho that cut and baled alfalfa in the field, hauled it to their ware house where they rebaled it in a custom stationary unit - can't remember if it was doubly compressed bales for export or not. But they had floor vents that the workers would sweep all the leaf shatter into and it would be sucked back into the bale feeder. Leaf dust - it might test high quality but is it really?

Stick to what you're doing. This too shall pass.


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## TBrown

HorseLover said:


> Explain the price society will need to pay in the future and for what; how this is having to do with it?
> The weather -- (a part of nature) -- is the only variable in the equation that is problematic to hay growing / harvesting. Am I WRONG?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :
> So, of course in addition to this, there is regional price flexuation. Different areas are affected differently. But, just Think about the different markets and animals integrated into this which are all impacted. A process like this would allow for consistently produced & readily available quality hay and greater ammounts of hay to be produced, like Warren said, he is yielding more hay and "5-6 cuttings" per season. In Upstate New York, actually being able to cut in december with a moderate climate is just absolutely unheard of, and not cutting because of it being cold in temp. (assuming excluding snow/frost) sounds like a lame excuse when they aren't relying on the sun. But just think of the excess tonnage / yield from that piece of land. It would make me happy as a farmer


Last time I checked my hay was dormant in December and I live in Illinois. I think its slightly colder in New York than it is here in the winter. I may be young and dumb but I kinda thought plants needed warm weather to grow.







If you can't find good hay for your 200k horse maybe you should quit buying the cheapest hay you can find and pay someone who produces quality hay consistantly. Just my 2 cents worth.


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## Hayboy1

I, like most of you on here sell hay. We always try our hardest to put up the best possible hay that we can. I take pride in what I do, and would not trade it for anything. What I think is going on with TQHP is that they are sitting on a natural gas well of some sort, so the fuel costs are minimal. I get just as frustrated as the next guy does when the weather doesn't want to cooperate, but I do see the good points and bad points in this process. Yes, you have mother nature fooled, and you dry "perfect hay" in an oven. And for the people who are silly enough to buy a horse for $200k, you can have your ridiculously priced man made hay. Let them buy/sell the synthetic stuff for the huge dollars, and see what it costs them to put it up "perfectly", but in the end, doesn't it still smell the same???. With the economic times we are having, I will stick to my guns, WORK OUTSIDE, not in a factory, get a tan, enjoy my breeze, and know at the end of a hard-ass day, I can sit down have a beer and listen to the rain knowing I have nothing to be ashamed of. 
Hey....one more stupid question, what do the wild horses and the ones that were set free last year eat now that there is such a "shortage" of quality hay? Did they all starve to death, or did they simply forage like they have been doing for thousands of years before we knew a damn thing about CP%, TDN, and foundering....but thats a whole other topic in itself!


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## mlappin

If a person can afford a 200K horse then by all means they should have a choice of the hay they feed. I would think if its that valuable and unlike 99% of the horses in my area, they are actually making money with that critter and can afford top dollar hay for it.

Until horse manure is worth $500 a ton though, feeding too high a quality hay to a horse usually only makes the vet happy.

I have a neighbor like that, he doesn't even own a saddle for the nags, yet he insists on the best quality hay money can buy to feed em. Everyone of them is fat, and I mean fat. Looks like they should have dropped a foal a month ago. He's probably paid for at least one new pickup for the local vet by now. But hey, as long as his checks don't bounce and he wants dairy quality hay for his lawn ornaments, he can feed whatever he can afford.


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## bunchgrass1

I don't know about hay shortages 'cause we have seen a glut of hay out here that has dropped the price of hay by more than half. Good quality grass small squares or round bales at $80 -$100/T. Last year you'd have paid more like $180-200 for a lot junkier stuff. So why would I still buy "BBQ'd hay" for $200/T? But the worst part of the whole thing is the waste of a non-renewable resource - natural gas/petroleum etc.

It also kills me when so called "entrepeneurs" jump in and out of various agricultural endeavors based on the short term gains. They flood the market, drive down the prices as they make their money and then move on to something else. Meanwhile, folks trying to make a true living are left w/ a bottomed out market to try and weather. As soon as you get the market rebuilt and prices up, back they come to reap some of the benefit of your hard work.

My horses are fat suckers and they've only had access to overripe pasture (headed out) for the last month or so. Certainly not "hi quality" forage by any means. Even a 200K horse is still a horse not the space shuttle. So feed him like one - not rocket fuel.


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## zrcattle

Dehydration plants are more common than you think. I know of two of them in Ontario than make Alfalfa Cubes, both are within an hour's drive of each other in Mid-Western Ontario.

The one plant was built in an industrial park adjacent to a nuclear plant to take advantage of cheap steam to dehydrate the hay. I think it runs on Bunker "C" fuel now as a steam source.

The website below has the rates they are offering for Alfalfa for dehydration.

http://www.bruceagradehy.com/

I think as a hay producer you need to understand why your customer is purchasing your product and what his or her needs are. The $200,000 horse owner is not buying hay based on price. Do you put regular fuel in your BMW or your Porsche? I would think not. The horse owners are very sophisticated people and live a lifestyle that most people could not even comprehend. Keep an open mind and see what opportunities lay before you. You might be surprised!


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## rank

I heard about one in France. It's solar powered. Apparently it takes 9 days to cure alfalfa there. Tedding it every day.


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## LegumeGuru

Wow! I am very surprised to hear that this type of idea is common out there and is suceeding in other places. I knew about TQHP and have had faith in it as I realized it is a win-win situation for all, but to hear that other companies do similar operations is just fascinating. Solar energy? It is a much different outlook than from the idea of the one user who came up with the idea that TQHP was sitting on a gas well and thriving with business with minimal expenses.







I just find the whole deal amazing, seeing how the franchise can make their process work efficiently and with viability. I can't wait to hear more about their sucess. Just watch, one day this franchise will dominate the market, setting a new standard-- one that will keep animals from getting sick by eliminating mold and bacteria in hay, etc. This hay was called "rocket fuel" by a member of Cornell University's Cooperative Extention with the point that the hay seen here has very high ammounts of relative Feed Value that *can be mixed with other grasses/hays* to reduce this, while animals are still getting their fiber. So, don't say that every horse would get "Fat" off from this hay because this is not necessarely true if the horse doesn't overfeed itself and isnt subject to only such a pure high energy concentration hay (instead of little portions or mixes). Horses are like any other animal when it comes to basic digestion, when overfed or not active enough to "burn off" their energy intake, then signs will show of getting fat, but not if they are fed properly.
My ears and eyes are open for new press releases because this is a revolution to agriculture and haying whether we like it or not. For God sake, it is in fact natural. The fields are not indoors in a greenhouse. With this process, farmers still maintain their crop, watch it grow and get to see it be harvested without being ashamed of seeing it be rained on. What is so wrong with that? It is "guarenteed farming". The farmer is Guarenteed 100 percent of their grows off the field + the typical leaf loss due to the brittleness of conventional drying, which is no longer an existing problem.


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## rank

I think it could be relatively efficient. I mean, look at what us crazy buggers do to cure hay conventionally in the NEast. Cut, crimp, tedd, tedd, tedd, rake, tedd, rake, roll, bale, transport, stack.

Compared to cut, transport, dry, bale, stack.

The problem as I see it, is this. It still takes ~3 days to cure and you need a MASSIVE building to cure this hay while it's loose.


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## LegumeGuru

rank said:


> I think it could be relatively efficient. The problem as I see it, is this. It still takes ~3 days to cure.


That's where the 4 Hours comes in. That includes cutting time, traveling time, detangling, conveying, drying, and baleing. And transport to nearby warehouse out back or to truck loading dock/rail for delivery.

This is where time efficiency, budgeting, management (whatever you wanna call it) is essential to a process of this scale. The oven doesn't run off of just pennies. Lol.







But when there are several tons of hay being produced daily, the little 4 hours it takes per load is where the efficiency comes into play. The hay goes in and is back out and is ready to be baled within about an hour of being at the plant. Now reconsider the efficiency!









What you may have been getting at is that maybe the haybales need to be exposed to normal atmospheric conditions once they are processed. This may include light/darkness exposure, different humidity levels, age of product in warehouse, etc. These are all factors that contribute to the hay's freshness and overall quality. That doesn't mean these conditions necessarelly apply to this company's warehouse in a negative way, but are definately ones to keep in mind when evaluating the quality of haybales, anywhere they may be.


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## rank

I was referring to the solar powered system. In that system that I heard about, the loose hay was piled a few feet deep on a perforated floor and 130 degree air was blown through it. Apparently it still took 3 days. In order to get the same output as conventional curing, you would need massive drying building. I dont know much about this system in NY.


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## bunchgrass1

The "inefficiency" , so to speak, is wasting the petroleum resource to dry hay for crying out loud. I know we all use the same stuff to power our tractors, swathers etc but there is NO REAL alternative to run the equipment while the freakin' sun can do the drying just fine.



> the hay seen here has very high ammounts of relative Feed Value that *can be mixed with other grasses/hays* to reduce this, while animals are still getting their fiber


Let me get this right. I'm supposed to buy some super Hi E or hay at a high price so I can dilute it with some crappy hay or other forage (that I also have to buy) so it will feed like mid quality grass hay (12%CP) that I can get pretty cheap in the first place? And why would I do this? If you're going to raise a forage that is "rocket fuel" you might want to make sure there's some rockets that need it. Putting it in my old Studebaker is just wasting money.

Last - get over the RFV stuff. It too is overrated.

Cubing and pelleting at least in our area are trying to get the export market - and any air shipped is wasted space.


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## LegumeGuru

The answer is very simple. It is as follows:

1.) There is a market for this premium hay. The demmand is unbeleivable. I'm friends with a very successful hay distributor who buys only good "top" quality hay in large bulk-like quantities and sells it to buyers all over the world in export. He is interested in this hay because of the next reason.

2.) Because this hay can be produced consistantly all of the time. He doesn't have to worry about his hay distributing company's name when this hay is always being produced of the same genuine quality. This is unlikely to be done all the time, and even nearly impossible, by using a weather-dependant conventional way of curing hay. As humans, we haven't got control of mother nature and the weathermen are not always right when it comes to predictions. I'm not saying anything against conventional dyring, i'm just saying that premium quality hay cannot likely be produced consistantly when put to the test under these types of weather conditions such as rain, dew, frost, etc.

To those of you hay farmers who can do so, I stand up to give you credit for being so lucky. We have all experienced the weather to our disadvantages before.


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> ....Because this hay can be produced consistantly all of the time.


Yep.

That's what I've heard from the big dairies. They require consistent "feed" for their TMR. It's nearly impossible to get enough consistent "natural" hay to feed 6,000 cows every day. They use irrigated alfalafa, corn silage and alfalfa silage as protein. Then they "cut" it with wheat straw as a filler. Why straw? Because it's consistent.

They use mother nature's hay to feed the dry cows.

I'm not a nutrionist, but that's how I understand it.


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## bunchgrass1

A high producing dairy is not the same thing as a 200K horse. When we used to buy for the dairy from an area hay broker, we'd set a price for certain spec'd hay - say 20% CP and 33% ADF. If the hay came in w/ higher CP or lower ADF, we'd pay a premium say $5/T more. If it was lower CP or higher ADF, the seller was docked. But these were for high production dairy cows that would go 3-4 lactations and be through - rockets. Not horses.

Horse folks are being flim-flammed into thinking that they need "premium" hay. That's PR crap.

Also, the big dairies have located in places w/ lots of forage production nearby - as well as other byproducts to feed because they need to feed massive quantities of feed (E and CP) to a dairy herd of 4-6000 animals.

Straw is consistent - in that it has very low protein, E, and the fiber is not that digestible w/o treatment. Dairymen are cutting rations w/ it because they need to get enough fiber in to keep the cow functioning as a ruminant not for consistency.


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## hay wilson in TX

They do rehydrate the hay by a spray or mist. And that is good. 
The information may have been there the whole time and I overlooked it. That has happened in the past.

I wonder if it is less costly to oven dry hay as compared to the cost of shipping in hay from the Arid, Western, Irrigated, States? 
Wonder what the comparative cost would be with diesel back to $4/gallon.

Is there a *dairy* market for the small bales in the North East?

As for alfalfa harvesting in the winter, here it is possible with a FD 9 variety. The problem for us with nondormant varieties is their lack of pest resistance. I have cut alfalfa in every month of the year, but not very often for November, thru February. Summer drought usually stops hay harvesting in July and August.
When there were a number of small dairies here my Father would green chop in the winter. Urban sprawl displaced all of them.

There are way to many horses around her, and I attempt to discourage them from purchasing my alfalfa hay. For just standing around, alfalfa has way too much energy for a horse.


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## rank

bunchgrass1 said:


> A high producing dairy is not the same thing as a 200K horse. When we used to buy for the dairy from an area hay broker, we'd set a price for certain spec'd hay - say 20% CP and 33% ADF. If the hay came in w/ higher CP or lower ADF, we'd pay a premium say $5/T more. If it was lower CP or higher ADF, the seller was docked. But these were for high production dairy cows that would go 3-4 lactations and be through - rockets. Not horses.
> 
> Horse folks are being flim-flammed into thinking that they need "premium" hay. That's PR crap.
> 
> Also, the big dairies have located in places w/ lots of forage production nearby - as well as other byproducts to feed because they need to feed massive quantities of feed (E and CP) to a dairy herd of 4-6000 animals.
> 
> Straw is consistent - in that it has very low protein, E, and the fiber is not that digestible w/o treatment. Dairymen are cutting rations w/ it because they need to get enough fiber in to keep the cow functioning as a ruminant not for consistency.


I'm not here to make a judgment as to what people should or should not be feeding their horses. They can feed them caviar for all I care. I am only saying that it might be a relatively efficient way to make hay in some climates. That's it.


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## rank

hay wilson in TX said:


> I wonder if it is less costly to oven dry hay as compared to the cost of shipping in hay from the Arid, Western, Irrigated, States?
> Wonder what the comparative cost would be with diesel back to $4/gallon.


Interesting point. The high test hay that they bring into NY comes on rails I believe. But a valid point nonetheless.



hay wilson in TX said:


> Is there a *dairy* market for the small bales in the North East?


Not that I am aware of. Doesn't mean the hay producer can't adapt though.


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## LegumeGuru

hay wilson in TX said:


> I wonder if *it is less costly to oven dry hay *as compared to the cost of shipping in hay from the Arid, Western, Irrigated, States?
> Wonder what the comparative cost would be with diesel back to $4/gallon].


Is this the question: does TQHP allow others to bring their hay to their drying facility from outside arid, western states? If not, what were you asking?


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## LegumeGuru

hay wilson in TX said:


> I wonder if *it is less costly to oven dry hay *as compared to the cost of shipping in hay from the Arid, Western, Irrigated, States?
> Wonder what the comparative cost would be with diesel back to $4/gallon].


Is this the question: does TQHP allow others to bring their hay to their drying facility from outside arid, western states? If not, what were you asking?


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> Is this the question: does TQHP allow others to bring their hay to their drying facility from outside arid, western states? If not, what were you asking?


I imagine he was asking if it was "cheaper" for the buyer to buy western irrigated or eastern dried hay.

And, since someone brought it up, one could also compare the carbon footprint of the two types of hay also; 2000 miles by truck @ 5 mpg = 400 gallons of diesel. Can you dry 24 tons of 14% hay from 80% with 400 gallons of diesel?


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## hay wilson in TX

LegumeGuru, No I am referring to the feasibility of hauling by truck or train cured three tie 120 lb western small bale hay to the hay buying market in NY & New England. If so how does that compare in cost per ton or pound of forage to the oven dried hay that is the topic.

Rank . There is considerably more than carbon footprint cost, at least for now, to long haul shipping. 
I was thinking in terms of a $4,000 haul bill on top of a $120 to $200/ton FOB price in New Mexico or Idaho. 
When Lurch, Fat Albert, or if you prefer Prince Albert, and his business partners finish with us there will be a new computation.

There are some advantages to the forced drying. First about 25% of total dry matter is lost in conventional hay harvesting, as compared to green chop. 
With their rehydrating of the product they will possibly cut this loss in dry matter to half or less. They can start harvesting when the standing alfalfa is at a stage the customer is asking for. It should be no problem to put up 200 RFV hay for the dairies and 100 RFV for the recreational horse trade.


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## LegumeGuru

After seeing the hay sample data at their website I can easily say that these values are "off the charts". The RFV is 196. 
TQHP - Home


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## rank

hay wilson in TX said:


> Rank . There is considerably more than carbon footprint cost, at least for now, to long haul shipping.


Agreed, but I thought the conversation was taking a "green" turn, no pun intended. Although it's a little out of our area, I imagine a flatbed would cost ~$1.50/mile or so from Idaho to NY.



hay wilson in TX said:


> I was thinking in terms of a $4,000 haul bill on top of a $120 to $200/ton FOB price in New Mexico or Idaho.


This is probably while they bring the stuff by train into NY.


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## LegumeGuru

rank said:


> This is probably while they bring the stuff by train into NY.


Although it could be a possibility for them, I am positive they don't use rail to bring in the hay. Shipping by train is only used for outgoing dry product (Delivery). 
It is all locally grown hay. According to the audioclip.
As a part of the patent, the new process features a way to unload truckloads of hay onto the first transport conveyers via a system of walking floor trailers working in conjunction with the use of a hydraulic device.
This would be very difficault to do if a person was to back a train up to the unloading dock.







However it wouldn't be impossible to handle hay coming in by train; the use of forklifts, etc. may be a way of doing it, but TQHP is not doing it that way.

After reffering back a few pages to the previously posted link regarding TQHP's interview, I found that the link didnt work so for those of you who could not listen, maybe this will work now...

It is called "_*Bale 100% of Your Hay Without Rain and Harvest All of the Leaves*_". It was the third audioclip down in the list of "_Recent Shows_". It explains thouroughly how the process works.

The site is: DairyCast | DairyCast. Your Connection. At Your Convenience. Check it out!


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> Although it could be a possibility for them, I am positive they don't use rail to bring in the hay. Shipping by train is only used for outgoing dry product (Delivery).
> It is all locally grown hay.


By "them", I meant the dairy farms that I am familiar with. As I understand, they bring their Idaho irrigated in on rails.


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## rank

Legume, are you associated with TQHP?


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## LegumeGuru

Oh i see. No, my friend buys hay from them as a hay distributor and sells the hay to many places. He explained TQHP's process to me and I, like him, found it to be amazing. Ever since, I have tried to talk it up because I think it is pretty cool. You know, its so different and new to people. I just like the process. I have told many people about it and it is funny to hear their opinions about it. Everybody's different when it comes to criticizing and making up an opinion.


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## hay wilson in TX

LegumeGuru There appears to be a slight difficulty in our communications.

Although it could be a possibility for them, I am positive they don't use rail to bring in the hay. Shipping by train is only used for outgoing dry product (Delivery). 
It is all locally grown hay.
When I referred to shipping in Alfalfa from the Arid Western Irrigated States I really meant shipping in alfalfa hay as a finished product to the final NY & New England livestock owners.

They do ship three tie hay to Kentucky for their horse market. True the Kentucky Horse World is a world all by it's self. In fact they even ship hay to Florida.

Not intending to hurt anyone's feelings but Horse Quality is just a little better than for the beef cattle and meat goat producers. 
The ultimate requirement for Quality hay is the Dairy Industry. They are the ones who need the higher energy as well as the extra protein.

Alfalfa quality is mostly a function of maturity at harvest. Early bud stage will produce above 180 RFV, first bloom will be just between 150 & 180 RFV, while quarter bloom is usually around 150 RFV. At full bloom the RFV is closer to 100. 
There are many tricks of the trade and handy judgment tool to predict the hay quality. None are perfect.

There are alfalfa growers in the West who cut 240 acres every day for 21 days in a row. They have a constant breeze, low night temperatures, and seldom see their humidity go above 40%, Day or Night! They control the amount of water applied and the harvest interval which is the key to controlling hay quality.

The object is to produce the hay the customer is willing to pay for.


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## LegumeGuru

hay wilson in TX said:


> Not intending to hurt anyone's feelings but Horse Quality is just a little better than for the beef cattle and meat goat producers.
> *The ultimate requirement for Quality hay is the Dairy Industry*. They are the ones who need the higher energy as well as the extra protein.


Agreed. Even though the price of milk is down; The dairy industry is one who would benefit tremendously from this high quality hay.

Once again, On their website it states that:

Top Quality Dairy (TQD) is grown and processed especially as a nutritional supplement for your dairy herd. The use of TQD in your feed regimen is guaranteed to increase milk yields and protein intake directly. The use of TQD in the diet of young stock is guaranteed to enhance growth and strength during the formative years.

TQHP -

It all seems to make sense.


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## swmnhay

LegumeGuru said:


> Agreed. Even though the price of milk is down; The dairy industry is one who would benefit tremendously from this high quality hay.
> 
> Once again, On their website it states that:
> 
> Top Quality Dairy (TQD) is grown and processed especially as a nutritional supplement for your dairy herd. The use of TQD in your feed regimen is guaranteed to increase milk yields and protein intake directly. The use of TQD in the diet of young stock is guaranteed to enhance growth and strength during the formative years.
> 
> TQHP -
> 
> It all seems to make sense.


To feed hay that was 200 RfV to young stock is not a good idea infact I think it is insane.Certain animals NEED certain quality of feed.You wouldn't feed a kid candy for every meal,they would be sick just like a calf would be.Sure you can mix it in a diet with straw but you can buy med quality feed for alot less than $300 a ton.


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## LegumeGuru

swmnhay said:


> Sure you can mix it in a diet with straw


You get the idea!

Again: "The use of TQD in your _*feed regimen*_..."
A feed regimen does not have to be, or start out as, pure Top Quality alfalfa. Animals' diets can gradually adapt to higher quality hays as they grow and get used to them, you see. 
As Hay Wilson in TX said. Alfalfa will obviously have different levels of RFV at different stages.


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## rank

I admit, in the last couple of years, I've had many days where I wished I had a drying system. But for years and years prior to 2008, I would never had given it a thought.

I'd love to know how many BTU's it takes to dry alfalfa down to ~13%. That would give me a pretty god idea what their costs are. I suppose I could figure it out by timing how long it takes my microwave to dry a sample.


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## bunchgrass1

A bit off the topic but out here it appears the there is some money in horse hay but it's the pure timothy folks want. You can charge pretty good for it. The other major market here in the west is export. export, export - as far away as N. Idaho is from the coast - say at least miles from a Seattle port - there were a lot of 3x3x4 bales headed to Japan. My understanding is that they are reprocessed (compressed or cubed) over in C. WA and then coninue on over to the port for shipment. Paying $195-200/T out of the field.

Still not sold on all this hi input stuff to make hay. In fact, I lean towards grazing as much as possible - reduce your input cost as much as possible because in agriculture you often don't get to set the price.

Quote: "Farmers are the only businessmen that buy retail, sell wholesale and pay the freight both ways"


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## bunchgrass1

One more thing - there are limits to how much milk a cow can produce regardless of E or CP input. Even when using Posilac (rBST). AND the idea that you're going to use a forage as supplement is ridiculous. We can get plenty of E into a cow w/o utilizing alfalfa as an E supplement.


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## hay wilson in TX

I agree Bunchgrass 1, on this idea, and I make my money selling hay.

Still not sold on all this hi input stuff to make hay. In fact, I lean towards grazing as much as possible - reduce your input cost as much as possible because in agriculture you often don't get to set the price.
I tell people, here, that their feed cost is roughly $0.15/day/cow with grazing, while it jumps to $1.50/day/cow when feeding harvested forages.

As far as alfalfa goes it can be a supplement for energy and protein for horses meat animals. I agree it will not fill the protein needs of a dairy cow. This was not always true, back 60 years ago when a good Holstein would produce 10,000 of milk in a lactation it would. The animal breeders have improved their production to a point where the amount of protein handled in the rumen just will not reach. Now they have to have some bypass protein, in many cases fish meal or animal scraps.

As for the finer points of dairy nutrition, anything I know became obsolete 60 years ago. Now I just have a passing interest. 
All the dairies around here have been gone for 20 or 30 years now. The only dairy hay I sell now is to the dairy goat producers.


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## nwfarmer

Very interesting posts. One interesting thing. I didn't know a cow would eat straw unless it was 20 below zero.

We have irrigated hay. The large farmers ship their hay out by truck. Most of it going out is large squares. The buyers pay for the trucking fees. During the haying season I see my neighbor load 6 or 8 trucks a day for Texas and Oklahoma. The small bales are put up for the horse stables and shipped mostly to Florida. They send their reps out to inspect the hay first.

As a smaller farmer it is an advantage to us because all of that hay is shipped and not sold locally and we can get better prices for our hay. As March and April arrive you most likely can not buy any hay in this area. It is all shipped, sold and waiting for pickup, or moldy because very little hay is even covered. We started covering our hay and are usually sold out by Thanksgiving. We then just accomodate the locals picking up their purchased hay.

It is interesting seeing all of the posts because I start to realize just how easy it is cutting, baling, and stacking irrigated hay. Just a little extra work corrugating the fields because our water is gravity flow. The cost of the water here adds about $6 a ton to the cost of the hay if you don't amortize the gated pipe or syphone tubes.


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## bunchgrass1

Hey NW,

Only $6/T for irrigation cost - that seems pretty good to me! I know guys in Southern ID that get a nice benefit from irrigating wheat - like a 50 bushel bump - but still say the water costs far outweigh the gain. Thus, they're growing it as a rotation crop not so much for the $$$.

How deep and what kind of production do you get from your well?

As far as cows eating straw, you're right that as the temp drops low they'll eat it better but you can feed it more easily (and better feed) if you treat it w/ anhydrous ammonia ~ 3% of the straw's dry weight. Pretty easy to do. Make a stack of round bales say 3 rows high and as long as you want. Cover w/ visqueen plastic all the way around and to the ground (even put some dirt down on the edges). Use a portable ammonia tank and shoot ammonia into a plastic barrel placed at the end of the row (under the plastic) - seal up the hole and let her sit for 2 weeks or so. Works best in the fall when daytime temps are up in the 65-70 range. That visqueen will inflate like a kid's moonbounce as the ammonia vaporizes. Just be careful around anhydrous - it will really nail you if you don't use common sense. In fact, when treating, a light breeze is good to keep any free anhydrous from pooling up near the applicator.

Sorry about the sidelight - and it may not be very cost effective because it depends on the price of ammonia (N).


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## rank

nwfarmer said:


> I didn't know a cow would eat straw unless it was 20 below zero.


They don't eat it willingly. It needs to be chopped very short to stop the cows from sorting through the TMR and refusing the straw.



nwfarmer said:


> Just a little extra work corrugating the fields because our water is gravity flow. The cost of the water here adds about $6 a ton to the cost of the hay if you don't amortize the gated pipe or syphone tubes.


Corrugating the fields? Around here we call those dead furrows.
Isn't that a little rough when you're baling & cutting?
What do you corrugate with?
Got any pics of your setup?


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## nwfarmer

This a picture of corrugating in the spring. Corrugators are on a homemade tool bar. Our water comes out of Buffalo Bill reservoir. All gravity fed to what they call a head ditch. Some of the large farmers pump and sprinkle but that is very expensive. It takes 48 hours from the time I order water until it arrives. Then 24 hours to shut it off. I order by the foot and it goes through a 1 ft wide weir. I'm getting about 650 gallons per min. Buffalo Bill reservoir is at about 6000 ft. We are at 5000 ft. All gravity flow. A ditch rider turns on the water and monitors how much we are getting.

I added a pix of my corrugations. Click on the pix to increase size.


PHP:







PHP:







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## nwfarmer

oops! guess two pix were too much


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## nwfarmer

Hopefully the pix will come through.


PHP:


[PHP]

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## nwfarmer

This is how we deliver our water by gravity flow. From syphone tubes and also gated pipe by gravity.


PHP:


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## rank

I find this very interesting. Thanks for posting. Please forgive my ignorance. Do you run pipes through the corrugations or raw water? How do you get even water distribution from one end of the field to the other? Seems like one end would be flooded while the far end would be dry?


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## nwfarmer

There is some slope on the fields. Once the ground gets wet the water doesn't soak in as well and the water moves on down the corrugation. The corrugations are about 4 inches deep, about 4 inches wide and 22 inches apart. We change water every 12 hours and move across the field. I flag the bottom and top so I can see how well it has been watered. On large fields it is more difficult to flag the top and bottom of the field.

It is hard on equipment because you have to go across the top and bottom of the field when you open up the field to bale or swath. Otherwise you go with the corrugations.


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## nwfarmer

Raw water goes through the corrugations. Ditch at bottom of field takes water to spillway and they use it below us on other farms. Like they say we just kind of rent the water.


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## okhillbilly

(nwfarmer) Do the people below you pay for the runoff water ? Who do they pay ? You or the state ?


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## nwfarmer

Water costs about $8 an acre foot. People below us also pay. At the end of the line some of the home owners get a reduced rate. But, can you imagine how many chemicals are in the water by the time it gets to the end.


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## nwfarmer

We pay the irrigation district. Several districts around here.


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## hay wilson in TX

Hay so fresh it seems wet | PDP

It is an interesting article by a Journalest.


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## rank

I imagine it's much like the hay when you take it out of the microwave after drying it down for a moisture test. It's so green it still looks wet.


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## plowboy14505

i work for a railroad that is a stone throw away fromTQHP and we havent yet shipped any hay in or out from there all the hay is grown locally


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## rank

plowboy14505 said:


> i work for a railroad that is a stone throw away fromTQHP and we havent yet shipped any hay in or out from there all the hay is grown locally


It almost has to be grown locally.

I find it interesting that they are now targeting the dairy market. I thought they were a small bale horsey operation the last time we discussed this?


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## hay wilson in TX

As I see the whole deal is a method to equal or better the quality plus color of the alfalfa hay from the Arid West. 
It would be defeating the purpose to ship in baled hay to process, and it would be a logistical nightmare to ship in wet cut forages to be processed.

Their system does have some advantages, beyond the obvious. They can harvest the forage in the afternoon when the sugar levels are elevated, and dry the hay down below 48% moisture before much if any of these sugars or dry matter has a chance to be lowered by plants still just being a live.

Just looking at AWIS forecast it appears that they are having a run of ±50% humidity, plenty of cloudy weather, and only about 0.20" of daily pan evaporation. To my thinking the hay growers will be doing well to be able to bale air dried hay 5 days after cutting. 
I would think a hay producer could double the value of their hay using this process. Now if the customer will be willing to pay $200/ton or more is another question. With current milk prices I doubt if the few dairies left will jump at the hay. They can put the alfalfa up as silage for less cost.

I would think the economics of the deal would make the shipping out of the hay difficult to sell. With hand loading the economics would be prohibitive. The Horse Set of Kentucky and Florida have for a number of years been importing all kinds of hay from as far away as Oregon. 
If this economic downturn continues that Race Horse Bubble is liable to burst.

They may have also toned down the horse sale talk, due to the blister beetle potential.


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## rank

> Just looking at AWIS forecast it appears that they are having a run of ±50% humidity, plenty of cloudy weather, and only about 0.20" of daily pan evaporation.


Don't forget the rain every 3-4 days. We are ~ 100 miles from these guys as the crow flies and 50% humidity is do die for...we are often trying to make hay in 70% + it seems. Almost nobody has made any amount of good dry hay in our area for two years now. Except us. And that's only because we've been macerating everything. Too bad we can`t sell it.


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## Hayguy

rank said:


> Don't forget the rain every 3-4 days. We are ~ 100 miles from these guys as the crow flies and 50% humidity is do die for...we are often trying to make hay in 70% + it seems. Almost nobody has made any amount of good dry hay in our area for two years now. Except us. And that's only because we've been macerating everything. Too bad we can`t sell it.


 Please explain why you can't sell it. Customers don't have the cash or what?


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## rank

Hayguy said:


> Please explain why you can't sell it. Customers don't have the cash or what?


It's hard to tell exactly, but mostly it comes down to the fact that they are getting it cheaper elsewhere.

1. I think all the rain has caused a hay glut in the northeast. Yes it is crappy and moldy but there's alot of it and with milk prices as they are, everyone is in survival mode.
2. Plus, it's possible there's been some carryover from 2008 and alot of guys might be cleaning out there barns at fire sale prices.
3. Plus, there's this CRP hay thing that is probably driving supply up.

We used to take a load a week to a dairy located 165 miles from us. 2 years ago it was $150/ton. Last year it was $120. Now he's paying $70 for mold so we stopped going.

It's the same story all over.


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## LegumeGuru

Another interesting article about TQHP

Western Horseman Magazine - Always a Hay Day


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## Chessiedog

I think that is a lot of bs . No waste ,horses eat all of it. give me a break .I've got horses and I have cattle .I can feed my horses any kind of decent hay that has no mold or a bunch of weeds and they clean it up fine all 4 of them are as fat as hogs and no grain. Granted their not really doing anything but a lot horses aren't . And $410.00 a ton I think I could feed a lot of $120 to $200 ton hay and take a little waste if I had too.
I mean really how much waste do you get out of any decent hay. Even like I read in one post on here the other day the guy was worried about some thorn bush branches in his hay ,now I don't know how much was in it but a horse is going to leave it lay so you got a half pound per bale out of say a 55 pound bale wow . I'm sure some rich and famous are going to fall for that kinda of hay no doubt about it ,but anyone that knows something about feeding horses what they need and not what looks the best and has the highest price will see through their advertising . In my opinion the kind of people going to buy this hay have more money than they know what to do with any way .


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## mlappin

The kind of horse people they are trying to market to have animals worth about what a new combine sells for, if you've ever priced a new combine with both heads, 410 bucks a ton for hay is kinda cheap compared to the cost of the animal.

On the other hand, that's kinda insane, animals do die for what seems like absolutely no reason at all other than just to be contrary. I actually looked into Alpacas several years ago, but from twenty years of living on a dairy farm, I knew regardless of how well the critters are tooken care of, sh*t happens and I couldn't see sinking $35,000 into a breeding pair of animals that could be hit by lightning if they weren't smart enough to get out of the rain.


----------



## Chessiedog

Sure I agree that's who they are marketing for .Like I said people who have more money then they know what to do with. Still doesn't mean the horse needs it .lol I guess its like anything made put a outrages price on it ,some one some where will pay for it thinking it's the best thing in the world not mater if he or she needs it or not .


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## hay wilson in TX

First I am pleased to see someone also uses the services of *AWIS*.

As for the Dairy One Hay test it is roughly in line with what is put up in Idaho, or Nevada. Price might be comparable also if you include the freight cost for 2,000 miles or so.

It is very true livestock will clean their plate given reasonable quality of a forage they are conditioned to eat. They will clean up 12% CP grass hay just as well as 24% CP alfalfa.

Just as all politics are local, I believe all agricultural information is also local. Case in point the quotes from Cornell. I can not believe anyone would say that this hay is above the quality found in normal western dairy quality hay.

The article just restates the idea that the hay buyer is using a different criteria for hay quality than their livestock do.


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## LegumeGuru

I would like to see these tests of the best samples to prove these are "roughly the same". I don't beleive it for a minute. In a place where the leaves, the major source for nutrients, are guarenteed to fall right off the hay because it is So brittle due to the baking in the scorchting heat, it must be impossible to yield and bale hay off the field with such levels of nutrients.

Another point is that not all animals should have the cutting of hay with the highest levels of protein, as others demmand without a doubt. Keep in mind that this is just one sample. There are always fluctuations in protein as the cutting goes on in the season, we all know that's obvious. So, that doesn't mean this hay is only for fancy animals because it can have lower / higher levels of protein due to the time it is cut.

And as for traditional ways, plan on having to risk having fed the animal dusty, moldy, fiberous hay with a lack of potential nutrients when compared to this. What ever floats your boat , I guess.


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## hay wilson in TX

What you say possibly is accurate for your climate, soil, and management style. 
Still if you are not familiar with their Western Irrigated Alfalfa growers with their climate and management styles let alone there markets you are a distinct disadvantage. 
They mostly sell into the California Dairy industry and their pricing is based on California's TDN. Much of their hay is graded Supreme or better than 180 RFV & better than 22% CP.

I would like to see these tests of the best samples to prove these are "roughly the same". I don't believe it for a minute. In a place where the leaves, the major source for nutrients, are guaranteed to fall right off the hay because it is So brittle due to the baking in the scorching heat, it must be impossible to yield and bale hay off the field with such levels of nutrients.

There the hay is dropped into a windrow behind the swather. The hay if it needs to be raked is raked while there still is more than 40% moisture in the hay, 
I have news it is not all that difficult to retain your leaves, with management. Part of that management is to bale at night when there us a little humidity.

There the customer will specify the protein and California TDN and the grower will fill that order. Some dairies want most of their protein from the forages and some want to supply more protein with high protein concentrates. Part of their management challenge is to time the harvesting to meet the parameters requested by the nutritionist.

And as for traditional ways, plan on having to risk having fed the animal dusty, moldy, fibrous hay with a lack of potential nutrients when compared to this. What ever floats your boat , I guess. 
I suggest you attend the 2009 Western Alfalfa & Forage Conference 
"Improving Your Odds of Profitability"
December 2 - 4, 2009 • Grand Sierra Resort and Casino • Reno, NV

Symposium Homepage
Program (online)
pdf doc 
Registration
All Registration Links
General Registration
Exhibitor Registration
Sponsor Registration
Speaker/Press/Organizer Registration

Hotel Information
Reserve a room (by 11/18/09)
Hotel Website
Directions / Location 
Contacts
Contact our 2009 Program Committee 
Overview 
Welcome: This is the home of the 2009 Western Alfalfa & Forage Symposium. Watch this site for sponsor and exhibitor information, general registration, and program information. 
About the 2009 Conference: Now in its 39th year this comprehensive conference covers many aspects of alfalfa and forage management from economics to pest management, irrigation and utilization. It is suitable for anyone interested in improving their knowledge about these key commodities in western agriculture. The conference features a commercial exhibit area, with 60-80 exhibits, and is preceded by a special half day 'Hands-on Diagnostic Workshop' (limited enrollment). The Western Alfalfa Conference typically attracts more than 600 participants and promises to be a meeting you won't want to miss. 
Hands On Alfalfa Diagnostics Workshop: This year, we are introducing a new activity in place of our traditional bus tour. A hands-on Alfalfa Diagnostics Workshop is scheduled for Wednesday, December 2nd from 1 to 5 PM. Each participant will rotate through sessions covering Soil Fertility, Weeds, Insects, and Diseases & Nematodes. Workshops will be conducted by experts from University campuses, Cooperative Extension, and industry. This interactive training will benefit pest control advisors, consultants, and progressive growers. Pre-registration is required, so if you are interested in attending, check the Diagnostics Workshop box on your symposium registration form and submit your payment of $50 per person attending. 
Location: Grand Sierra Resort and Casino, 2500 E Second Street, Reno, NV 89502 
Sponsored By: Cooperative Extension Services of California, Nevada, Idaho, Oregon, Arizona, and Washington 
PCA and CCA Credits Offered: Check at Registration 
Spanish Translation: If there is sufficient interest, Spanish language translation may be provided during the Western Alfalfa and Forage Conference. A small fee would be assessed to help cover the costs. Please contact Shannon Mueller ([email protected] or 559-456-7261) if you would be interested in making sure that translation services are available.

Then you can inform the western growers that there is a better way.


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## hay wilson in TX

Please to not interpret my opus to say that the forced drying and baling of is not a valid system.

It is my point that running down others may not be beneficial. 
Blowing out someone else's candle does not make you candle burn brighter.

Forced drying is not a new concept, but this application probably is new. It has been written up in at least one Western Hay Magazine. So it is familiar to the Western Growers.

The ultimate opinion is the one that counts to the dairy producer. That is pounds of milk at a profit. If it does not meet that criteria that hay will not sell into a commercial market.


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## SidecarFlip

Interesting discussion. Let Obama factor in Cap and Trade into fuel input costs and then we'll see if it's profitable. With fuel cost input tripled, field dried hay will come out on top and finally, my wife raises Percheron Draft Horses, me I'm allergic to horses so I stay away.....We feed them basically orchard grass rounds I bale on the back 40 and they are fat and sassy (as a percheron can be).

My customer base is entirely equine, has been for over 10 years now and I learned early on that most equine people can't tell good quality forage from bad. Most equine people think that heavy green mostly alfalfa bales are what their horse needs when the opposite is true. Horses are natural grazers and exist very well on native grasses, which, is what I sell to my customers. Took a bit of education on my part, but it paid off for me. besides, grass hay is easier to deal with from my end. I don't worry about rain days like an alfalfa grower would.


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## LegumeGuru

I don't mean to talk bad about the west, its just noticing that there is a difference in climate. In upstate new york, it is much different with unpredictable rain coming off the great lakes and having a moderate temperature, usually being cloudy, climate. And as for the dairy market, I agree. I'm not saying right or wrong I am only comparing the advantages and disadvantages. Finally, I would like to go to that conference. Thank you for sharing. I think its great to see what other people are thinking. Now wouldn't this hay you are talking about be "too rich" for most animals having significantly higher values? Because I have heard that TQHP's hay is too nutritious for some (non-active) animals, as they say?


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## Chessiedog

So just wondering are the dairies out west paying $410 a ton for the hay they order to spec ?


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## rank

Making hay for some horsey types is alot like making fishing lures I figure. They are designed mostly to catch the buyer, not the fish.


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## rank

$410/ton is $8 - $10 per small square. Not the highest price I've heard tell of.


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## hay wilson in TX

Now wouldn't this hay you are talking about be "too rich" for most animals having significantly higher values? Because I have heard that TQHP's hay is too nutritious for some (non-active) animals, as they say? 
Right on! A grass hay testing in the 8% to 10% CP range is about optimal for the casual horse that sees a saddle maybe one day a month.

So just wondering are the dairies out west paying $410 a ton for the hay they order to spec ? 

No not with milk selling in the $10/100 lb range. NM news letter says premium hay is selling in the $200/T range delivered.

Making hay for some horsey types is a lot like making fishing lures I figure. They are designed mostly to catch the buyer, not the fish. 
*Exactly!*

$410/ton is $8 - $10 per small square. Not the highest price I've heard tell of.

Our bales are not that heavy. $410/T is in the $11 to $12 a bale and that is feed store hay prices for 55 lb bales sold here.

*PM harvesting*
Something the TQHP folks may be missing is the idea of PM harvesting. As the day develops sugar (non structural carbohydrates) accumulate. This increases the energy levels in the forage. When the forages are cut this stops and respiration reduces the sugar levels. Their process could dramatically increase the digestible energy in their product. 
Great idea, unfortunately the PM harvesting effect is not a all day option for the hay grower. 
They tell me in the High Desert in Idaho they can cut a few hours past sunset and still have a positive sugar effect because their night temperatures are cold enough to stop respiration.
PM harvesting is an interesting option for a small one man operation, like mine. 
I can rake at first light with a dew and save leaves. 
Start to Bale between 10 or 11 AM and be finished in a few hours. 
Cut before 3 or 4 PM and have a higher net energy content.


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## mlappin

I'm going to run this past a friend of mine and see what he thinks. He's selling organic grade A milk and is actually getting a premium as its cheese grade, which is weird as when we were milking cows if you were shipping cheese grade milk, meant you're dairy wasn't clean enough to past muster to sell it as grade A. Anyways, he does the rotational grazing and has a all Jersey herd, the higher butterfat in his milk is getting the premium as from how I understood it, they get a higher or better yield of cheese.

Anyways, I'm not sure about now, but several years ago he was getting paid twice the going rate for milk as a other dairy's in the area, but even at double the price, supplementing the cows with organic corn at 7 bucks a bushel didn't pencil out. I believe he paid in the area of 170 a ton for organic hay this summer, and 50 a ton for delivery from Wisconsin. I'll show him the feed values they are claiming to have and see what he thinks. I imagine organic hay of that quality will be considerably higher in price.

Strange part is, I used to supply him with every round bale of first cutting I didn't need to feed the beef cows and some second as well. When he decided to go organic, he even offered to pay the way for my wife and I to go a few of the organic conferences with him and his wife to see what it would take to continue raising his hay for him. After looking into the organic hay prices, the added expenses of raising organic hay, and the mountain of paper work to be re-certified every year, I decided this was something that was not worth pursuing. Granted he buys his hay during the summer and has the storage space to keep it untill winter, and I only sell mine once the snow starts to fly and the price goes up, but almost every year since he's went organic, it averaged out that I'm still getting the same that he pays for organic hay and some years I'm even getting more than he paid.


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## LegumeGuru

[quote name='hay wilson in TX']
$410/ton is $8 - $10 per small square. Not the highest price I've heard tell of.

Our bales are not that heavy. $410/T is in the $11 to $12 a bale and that is feed store hay prices for 55 lb bales sold here."

I hear people who live in Florida whining because of prices are going at between $15 to an upwords of $20 a small bale. Nobody can find quality hay down there and the supply is not available. Ocala, Florida is one hot spot and there are many more. Now figure the cost per ton at these going rates! People are figuring if it might be cheaper to have it hauled in at an ungodly rate for shipping than to buy at the high rates they are seeing becaus eof the shortages. Does any body know what I'm talking about?


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## swmnhay

Hmmm,someone asked you if you had a intrest in TQHP way back in this thread.You said you didn't that you had a friend that bought from them and distributed it.Now you say OUR BALES ARE NOT HEAVY.OUR sounds like you have something to do with TQHP.If you do fine but if you are why lie about it.It has been a interesting thread all in all.


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## LegumeGuru

swmnhay,
If you look above, I was trying to quote Hay wilson in TX with the price as he said. It just didntn't go through as a quotation. Holy crow!! And what I said is true.


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> I hear people who live in Florida whining because of prices are going at between $15 to an upwords of $20 a small bale. Nobody can find quality hay down there and the supply is not available. Ocala, Florida is one hot spot and there are many more. Now figure the cost per ton at these going rates! People are figuring if it might be cheaper to have it hauled in at an ungodly rate for shipping than to buy at the high rates they are seeing becaus eof the shortages. Does any body know what I'm talking about?


Yeah, I know what you're talking about. We take large squares into that area. A neighbor takes in small squares.

I'm guessing trucking would cost ~$1750 - $2850 or so (our trailers are decks so I'm not up on the dry van or reefer rates, so those rates might be off). Say ~ 20 tons in a dry van or reefer. That's ~$90/ton for trucking. Add that to the $410 = $500/ton or $10 for a 40/lb bale + whatever the retailer needs to make.


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## LegumeGuru

That's EXACTLY the way to look at it. Comparing to the cost per bale. Yeah $500 may seem like a lot for some of us but to others they wouldn't bat an eye at the price. It is just different for some depending on the situation. That's All. 
P.S. I'm Glad someone actually realizes this on here.


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## LegumeGuru

I came across this quote on the internet and it seems to hold true:
"Quality is everything, [when it comes to hay]. A buyer may visit five sellers but buy at only one or two of them. There's no market for mediocre hay. " Who wants crap hay for their animals? Sometimes its the only option, ufortunately; but is it a good thing? Is another question.


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## rank

personally, I don't see a difference between artificially drying hay and artificially drying corn.


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## LegumeGuru

You are absolutely correct! Tobacco is dried in an oven, corn, hay, and so on... It can be profitable. There are even some more industries, I can imagine, that have used driers for producing similar products as well. Manure has been dried in an oven, pumaces, and dehydrated fruits, etc. I don't know about whether they use patents or not? Some products are more profitable than others, and some people have accepted certain products more easily over others maybe because they aren't quite as controversal as other products as harvesting quality hay is. I understand how many of you are feeling on here, listening to this process and yet having to put up with facing unpredictable mother nature, while it can be okay to deal with when we are lucky, but also terriblly devistating (risky business) at times. I know you are all used to playing the cards you are dealt and making the best of any situation, gambling on the weather, etc. but that is the beauty of TQHP's hay drying equipment & process. No more worries as to the crop getting rained on, guarenteed consistent quality, and much more... Beside the fuel costs, I cannot see the disadvantages of it! Anyway, other industries are using similar methods for their more efficient means of production.


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> Beside the fuel costs, I cannot see the disadvantages of it!


Well, there's the cost of the dryer.

And there's another one. You're paying money to truck alfalfa at 80% moisture to your facility then you (pay again) to dry it to 15% (approx). 80% - 15% = 65% waste. In other words, you have to truck 80 loads of wet forage to get 15 loads of dry hay.

And there's another one. Say I have a customer who wants a load of dry hay in CT and I know a dry hay producer in eastern NY. All I have to do is move that hay to CT. But with the dryer, all of the forage must be purchased locally and shipped to the dryer. This is going to create an alfalfa vacuum near my dryer and drive my alfalfa prices up.


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## LegumeGuru

But if it is more efficient and quality is controlled consistently then its no longer a variable; It all balances out (equalizes) in the end with the steeper price. 
Simple concept here: 
High demmand (need) for top quality hay to be produced consistently + Lower Supply (Quality Hay SHortage) = a higher equilibrium / market price for top quality hay.

On the other hand, if there was a high supply of mediocre hay and a low demmand for mediocre hay (as compared to top quality hay) then it will = a lower market price.

It is just that simple!

Having said that, the dryer should pay for itself quicker than some may think because it is dramaticly increasing the product output. Hauling costs must be figured into the price / ton after drying.


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## LegumeGuru

Idealy the hay supply will be grown locally and nearby the facility or onsite, depending on the franchise location and setup in relation to the business plan. Franchises are deciding how they will import the hay supply. Some are growing a huge ammount onsite and others have a larger radius from the processing plant. Location of Privately owned crop and/or contracted crop are two factors that determine location of the facility.


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## Rodney R

This is all really quite simple - if the hay that comes from TQHP is selling for around $400/ton, and I can get a lot less than that, no matter how good it is, then I can't afford it, and it won't pay for itself in 100 years. I have seen/heard of guys buying/selling hay for $90-$150/ton this season, and A LOT of the customers that we deal with are asking why we command a larger price than that. $400/ton is so far out of line around here that it's not even worth considering. The market and the customers for that value of hay is so small that it's not even worth considering. A novelty is all that it is. And everything else that has been listed - grain, tobacco, etc.... those crops are all partially dried, after the bulk of the moisture has been removed by the sun/air - TQHP is removing ALL of the moisture - it is simply to expensive to remove all of the moisture artificially. The bulk of it has to come out with the sun/air and a partial drying has to occur to bring this anywhere near a cost that can be tolerated by the masses. Until we get something like that, this is all novelty.

Rodney


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## mlappin

What most people are not bringing up here, how many people actually need this high a quality hay? More importantly, how many are actually willing to pay for it? Last I heard, milk is at 10 a hundred so I can't imagine the dairy's wouldn't be stampeding to $400 a ton hay. I could see if enough of these come into use, they'll kill their own market. I think its been pointed out already, but sunshine is free and non polluting while regardless of what fuel is used to run the dryer, increased pollution is gonna result. Sure, I'm adding some by tedding and raking, but like was pointed out already, most of the load that all those trucks will be hauling, is water and I'm sure those extra 65 loads of the wet hay will contribute a lot more than my raking and tedding will.

Granted at this point in time, I almost wish one of those was set up around here as I'm never gonna get the last few fields made with the crappy weather we have had for almost two weeks now.


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## LegumeGuru

What I do know is that the franchise applications are steadily coming in like you wouldnt beleive. Still, the market will not be completely impacted, or see a sudden change, overnight due to the fact that there is such a huge ammount of needed hay production and it will take time for these plants to be able to produce and maintain such a supply. But I guarentee you will see and hear that more of these plants are popping up around the country. My buddy tells me that while he's there he sees people coming to see the process like its a mueseum and from there they decide about whether they can start-up a franchise. Many have no doubt it will be successful, provided the initial- and operating- capitol. People interested in franchises can tour the facility to see the process and witness this new process by appointment.


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## rank

If I recall correctly, the price for Western alfalfa *was* ~$280 + transport. And that was with good milk prices. 2400 miles from Idaho to NY at $1.50/mile....$460/ton. Were the dairies paying that in '07 - '08? I don't recall.

As mentioned, there's probably not a hobby horse market of any significance since most of them don't really need the alfalfa.

So we're back to dairy and maybe race horses. I think western alfalfa is running ~$120 -$150+ transport costs these days? 2400 miles from Idaho to NY at $1.50/mile???? That's ~$330 delivered.

I would think they might have a dairy market at ~ $250/ton.Can you truck all that water and pay for a drier at that price? I dunno.

We do ~1500+ acres for each cut. The farthest is ~25 miles from our barn. I dread the thought of trucking 65 loads of every 100 for nothing. I don't want to even think about how many trucks, trailers and drivers I would need to keep up to the haybine.


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## LegumeGuru

Other forages:
Timothy, Timothy/Alfalfa mix, Orchard grass, Orchard/Alfalfa are common as well as Alfalfa. TQHP doesn't do just Alfalfa hay. That may be where there is a misconception of it maybe being 'too' rich. Timothy or the mixed blends may be a better choice in some cases depending on the situation. On top of that, like mentioned earlier in the post, protein levels fluctuate as the season goes on and as it is cut, we all know that- we just don't always consider before we go saying "it's too this, too that".


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## rank

LegumeGuru said:


> Other forages:
> Timothy, Timothy/Alfalfa mix, Orchard grass, Orchard/Alfalfa are common as well as Alfalfa. TQHP doesn't do just Alfalfa hay. That may be where there is a misconception of it maybe being 'too' rich..


A monkey can make that stuff.









But the CP isn't there. RFV isn't there. Hard to charge a dairy big bucks without that. Plus you don;t have to worry about the leaves falling off every time you play with it. Plus it cures faster all on its' own so "conventional" producers are able to make top quality grass hay without a drier. Heck, I can make "supreme" grass just by tedding it once.

I like the idea. Just don;t know if it pays.


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## HALLSHAY

Anyone sending in an application to franchise a multi-million dollar operation that has not yet had a full year of production with proven numbers is nuts! My question is simple, how much hay have they dried, stored, and or sold this year? They were going to ramp up to 250,000 bales this year. Have they come close to their projection? I still say that $400 a ton hay x 5000 tons is only 2 million gross per year. Is it enough to bank the project, the process, and the product? What if they only produced 100,000 bales this year? Can it compare to the huge volumes of western and eastern hay that is baled using the good old sun? My personal opinion is that there will be some drying equipment for sale in the next few years. The next person who buys it may be able to make it work because they will buy the equipment for about 10 cents on the dollar.


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## swmnhay

LegumeGuru said:


> What I do know is that the franchise applications are steadily coming in like you wouldnt beleive. Still, the market will not be completely impacted, or see a sudden change, overnight due to the fact that there is such a huge ammount of needed hay production and it will take time for these plants to be able to produce and maintain such a supply. But I guarentee you will see and hear that more of these plants are popping up around the country. My buddy tells me that while he's there he sees people coming to see the process like its a mueseum and from there they decide about whether they can start-up a franchise. Many have no doubt it will be successful, provided the initial- and operating- capitol. People interested in franchises can tour the facility to see the process and witness this new process by appointment.


So what is the cost of a franchise?And what does that include?What are other costs?How much $ to dry it down per ton of hay?How many acres/tons can a dryer do?

So bottom line what is the total cost per ton to process the hay from the field to the bale?


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## LegumeGuru

Here is some contact info, provided from the website:

Phone: 607-869-3477 
Fax: 607-869-3149 
E-Mail: [email protected] 
Web: TQHP - Home 
Mail: Top Quality Hay Processors 
Cornell Agriculture and Technology Park 
500 Technology Farm Drive 
Geneva, NY 14456

Email / call to get more info or to initiate buiness.


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## chief-fan

swmnhay said:


> Reminds me of another article in H&F Grower.A few yrs ago a group of farmers were going to dry hay in lg sq bales to make high quality dairy hay.The dryers were 200K apiece.well a couple yrs later there sale bill was out Secured Creditors,they had 3 dryers3-4 swathers and balers and tractors everything new.Obviously things didn't work,probably couldn't sell ALL the hay at a premium to pay for the equipment and extra cost of drying.I figured they had close to 1.5 M in equipment on sale bill.This was in NW Iowa.You have to have a market for this high premium hay.It will take a heck of 200K horses to eat up a couple thousand acres of hay.Maybe this hay will be too good to rich and not enough fiber,and cause digestive problems.I know of dairies were the nutritionist has them put the best hay that they can and after awile they have gut problems and the vet has them adding straw to the ration to tone it down.


I think the outfit you referedto that went broke was a dary farm about 70 miles North of me. The farm has had three owners in 3 years ! ! My neighbor bought one of the windrowers. Nice outfit but don't do the job that the NH Haybine does.


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> ._Maybe this hay will be too good to rich and not enough fiber,and cause digestive problems.I know of dairies were the nutritionist has them put the best hay that they can and after awile they have gut problems and the vet has them adding straw to the ration to tone it down._


I'm wondering about that^ as well. For awhile in our area straight alfalfa was what the dairy guys were really willing to pay for. As of late, a nice alfalfa/grass mix of about 70% alfalfa and 30% grass has been bringing top dollar the last several years. I know several of the rotational grazing guys around here have claimed that grass fed cows have fewer gut problems. I've also seen advertisements for grass hybrids that claim one of the advantages of feeding grass or a grass alfalfa mix over straight alfalfa is reduced gut problems.

Just like horses, cows lived for tens of thousands of years in the wild on grass and other fodders not on ultra rich alfalafa.


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## hay wilson in TX

Wonder what the Large Dairies of California and Idaho find to be ideal.

mlippin if you have any pull with the Indiana Forage Council get them to get off the June kick for the AFGC annual Conference.

June is not a Hay Farmer Friendly month for a 3 day, plus travel time, conference. That is if AFGC is at all interested in Hay Growers.


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## LegumeGuru

mlappin said:


> As of late, a nice alfalfa/grass mix of about 70% alfalfa and 30% grass has been bringing top dollar the last several years.


TQHP sells a lot of mixes, or blends. Alfalfa/Timothy is one Top Seller. It can be narrowed down to a matter of preference.


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## mlappin

hay wilson in TX said:


> mlippin if you have any pull with the Indiana Forage Council get them to get off the June kick for the AFGC annual Conference.
> 
> June is not a Hay Farmer Friendly month for a 3 day, plus travel time, conference. That is if AFGC is at all interested in Hay Growers.


Yeah I know, its Indiana so I'm not hardly surprised and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on em to change it.

The only person who has worse timing would be the wife's cousin. Talking to him awhile ago and he asked if I'd be in his wedding. Sure I say, be happy too and honored. Said he'd let me know soon as they decide the date.

He got back to me awhile ago with the date....May 15th. Up here about the 15th we should be planting hot and heavy.

Oh yeah, he also insisted I show up for the bachelor party. No problem except I should mention he lives in Cambridge, England.

Figure to spend even more time this winter double and triple checking to make sure its ready to run in the spring, hopefully its a early one so we can get a helluva dent made in planting before I leave.

I almost decided to not go, except I did tell him I would and I hardly ever get out of Indiana and have never left the country. I figure might as well make the bachelor party as it might be my only chance to barf on England. The wife's Aunt's and Uncle's over there are definitely not getting any younger either and it's been around fifteen years since the last time she was there.


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## sedurbin

> I figure might as well make the bachelor party as it might be my only chance to barf on England


I'll Drink to that!


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## Cascade farmer

Interesting subject for curing hay. My small farm will continue the old way,thanks.


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## Barry Bowen

Anybody know what the nutritional analysis is on the alfalfa out of the plant? Personal thought that much heat cannot be good for the hay.


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## hay wilson in TX

To for a comparison you would need to take a whole top tissue sample, then have the 4 hour dry down hay tested, plus have some of that field cure down using ambient conditions.

I would suggest that the end product will be of, measurably, higher quality than hay that had been laid in a wide swath, had a tedder stir things up, raked and finally baled in the field. I would also suggest that a hay producer located in the arid, western, irrigated, states would never consider the process. The rational for artificial drying is the hay would not have a reasonable chance for quality hay with out artificial drying.

Done with any care at all the 4 hour system should put 90% of the standing dry matter into a package. The leaf shatter should be insignificant. To do that they will have to rehydrate the hay as it comes out of the oven. Then they will need to bale the product roughly 15 minutes out of the oven but no more than 30 minutes after the using the water treatment. 
Done with any care 4 day cure time baled hay is doing good to get 75% of the standing dry matter into a package.

The thing to remember, hay never becomes better with time.

This is the reason much of the research data has to be interpreted. They clip the forage and run into a container. Then it is dried analyzed and weighed. There is close to zero derogation or loss in the process. This is especially true with bermudagrass research.

If there is a market their system will survive, if not their system will ride off into the sunset.


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## Barry Bowen

Hay Wilson, 
I still have a simple question, WHAT IS THE ACTUAL 
ANALYSIS OF THE HAY OUT OF THE OVEN? I have not been able to find it anywhere. I have asked the company for some analysis, and they refuse to provide it unless I am buying hay from them. What are they hiding?


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## swmnhay

Barry Bowen said:


> Hay Wilson,
> I still have a simple question, WHAT IS THE ACTUAL
> ANALYSIS OF THE HAY OUT OF THE OVEN? I have not been able to find it anywhere. I have asked the company for some analysis, and they refuse to provide it unless I am buying hay from them. What are they hiding?


Barry if you scroll back thru this thread you should find thier web site and they do have a hay analysis link on it.

Find it quite odd a company wouldn't give you that info out if the product is as good as they claim.

Myself I do not think it is feasible in this part of the country.I think they are asking $400 a ton for the hay.You would be laughed at around HERE with milk at $14.


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## Barry Bowen

Gentlemen, I have hit every link on the page and nutritional analysis is not available on their web site. Tell me where to look, or better yet send me link to where it is.

I still wonder what they are hidding.


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## swmnhay

Barry Bowen said:


> Gentlemen, I have hit every link on the page and nutritional analysis is not available on their web site. Tell me where to look, or better yet send me link to where it is.
> 
> I still wonder what they are hidding.


Try this.

Western Horseman Magazine - Always a Hay Day

click on hay analysis at end of article


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## hay wilson in TX

testing 28-30% crude protein and 66-68% TDN.
Godiva Hay | Top-Quality Hay Processors, LLC (TQHP) | Four-hour drying method expected to create top-quality hay

Contact them at TQHP - Contact Us

TQHP - brochure

I am not the one to give a shining endorsement for their product. 
Their product might sell around Austin and Houston but it sure would not sell in the local market, *HERE*.

Through out the thread I have been critical of their product. Still they do have something to sell, and their probably is a market for the product.

Their CP & TDN can be duplicated with atmospheric curing, in a climate better suited to hay production. You will probably not see any detailed hay test results, unless you are buying. There are just too many variables that go into hay quality. The time of day cut, the stage of growth when cut, if it is a first, second, to fifth cutting all makes a difference in quality.

The real quality check is to put it out for your livestock, and then measure the results. Pounds of milk per day is probably the best measurement.

For the actual quality you have to ask the final customer.


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## LegumeGuru

Their website reads:

"Due to the varieties of hay grown and harvested, we are able to provide for the nutritional needs of your animals.

Our customers' needs determine the protein content of our hay. For higher protein, we cut before the hay flowers; for lower protein, we cut during and after flowering. Since the weather is not a factor in determining when we cut, our customers can order the hay the way they like it, and we can customize the nutritional values for them.

Let TQHP custom-tailor our hay to your animals' nutritional needs!"


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## Barry Bowen

Thanks for that article and the link. There was a link on that article that went to the actual report from dairy one. That was just what I was looking to see. Very impressive numbers. RFV of 196 is good, but potassium is on the high side. You are also right to say you can get these results air drying if the weather is right and you know what you are doing. I have gotten close to these a few times on second and third alfalfa, but weather often does not allow.

I understand all too well the variables that go into making good hay of any type. I make hay for the horse, alpaca, and llama market around here, and the animal is always the final arbiter of quality. Personally I will not sell to a new client until we have actually put the hay I have made in front of the animals and they eat it.


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## SVFHAY

Anyone heard how this outfit made out this season? How about the product showing up in your market area?

Thanks


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## thebonepile

I can't help but think the price of energy to dry that newly cut alfalfa will be the killer to the operation. Yes, it will obviously be great hay, and yes, SOME people/animals/export markets might like (need?) the better quality stuff, but when you compare that system to creating hay where the sun dries it, I just don't see where it will be a year in, year out money making process.

If a guy could wide cut alfalfa, let dry for as much as possible (even 24 hrs) - then go and pick up the crop and dry it the rest of the way - MAYBE

think of the cost to just take 20% moisture corn down to safe storage levels, then IMAGINE taking a just cut alfalfa crop at what like 75 or 80% water, hauling all that water to a central place, EVAPORATING all that water out of the hay, making the bales, then hauling the product to a market that will pay premium prices.....I just don't see it as a viable alternative to the sun, reliable or not.


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## mlappin

This year in our area with all the hay seeming either to get wet or getting cut late because of the excessive rains we had the first half of the summer, I could almost see this working. However, with milk prices down and people worried about their jobs, nobody is willing to pay a premium for hay no matter the end use. We also don't have any high end hayburners in the area so that market isn't viable either.


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## swmnhay

I see where they have some in bags and boxes for $1 a pound for rabbits,gerbils,etc.Now if I could sell my entire crop at that price.$2000 a ton that may just work.









So how many gerbils would it take to eat 1000 ton of hay?


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> So how many gerbils would it take to eat 1000 ton of hay?


Not sure, I'd ask Richard Gere.


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## barnrope

mlappin said:


> Not sure, I'd ask Richard Gere.


Thanks for the 5 minute laugh!!!!


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## baddog201

When they say their hay tested double that of a normal bale i had some of my 4th and 5th cutting that i had sampled and i was at 24.1 CP. HMMM to me that dont sound like double to me sounds like mine test around the same as theirs and i got 150 a ton for my stuff that the sun dried and the dairy who bought it said his cows ate all of it and he bought 75% of everything i had. He might make it but if there got to be to many of those things running it will drive the price down on his hay because there would be more of that type hay out there. I have some customers that buy squares off of me horse people one raises race horses and the other is a stable and thier horses eat my hay just fine and dont waste any at the end of the day if you make good hay on time and its nice and soft horses or cows will eat it and clean it up


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## hay wilson in TX

Well said and true!


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## haygrl59

Was reading this old thread and thought I'd give an update.

The company went belly up. Owes the town of Romulus $200,000.

Good idea but apparently they didn't consider all the costs of operation and/or the market.

Maybe someday someone will come up with an efficient way to mechanically dry hay.

Until then, I guess we'll just let God dry our hay naturally.

http://www.fltimes.com/news/article_fea1a0f6-2490-11e4-912b-0019bb2963f4.html


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## swmnhay

I wonder how many others were stuck also?I,d wager a lot of the farmers were never pd for their hay either.


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## slowzuki

Traditional hay farmers are environmentalists, low carbon footprint, solar powered hay drying technology.



haygrl59 said:


> Was reading this old thread and thought I'd give an update.
> 
> The company went belly up. Owes the town of Romulus $200,000.
> 
> Good idea but apparently they didn't consider all the costs of operation and/or the market.
> 
> Maybe someday someone will come up with an efficient way to mechanically dry hay.
> 
> Until then, I guess we'll just let God dry our hay naturally.
> 
> http://www.fltimes.com/news/article_fea1a0f6-2490-11e4-912b-0019bb2963f4.html


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## SVFHAY

Thanks haygrl. I think we all saw it coming. Just because it's possible to do something doesn't mean its sustainable.


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## ARD Farm

swmnhay said:


> I wonder how many others were stuck also?I,d wager a lot of the farmers were never pd for their hay either.


Isn't that how it usually works? The lower on the 'totem pole' you are, the more you loose?


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