# Disc mowers - cutting height?



## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

It seems that a lot of disc mower manufacturers boast about how close to the ground they can cut. I understand this is desirable for some crops like alfalfa. But we are planning to grow some tropical forage crops that do better when cut higher up, at around 25 centimetres (~ 10 inches) above the ground.

I see that New Holland has a mower http://agriculture.newholland.com/us/en/Products/Hay-and-Forage-Equipment/Discbine_CenterPivot/Pages/Options_details.aspx#feature_contentthat has an option for extra-high skids (BioMass option) with height range up to 7-3/4 inches. They say "Lift lock out channels stop the cylinders mid-stroke to maintain good flotation, even when cutting well off the ground."

I'd like to ask:

1. Is it necessary that disc mowers are in contact with the ground when mowing... do they have to skid along on their shoes?

2. If the answer is yes, then do you think it would be relatively easy to add some "spacers" or "extra metalwork" of some sort to increase the height between the cutterbar and the shoes to raise the cutting height?

3. Is there some reason why customising the mower to raise the cutting height might not work, for example due to changes in the geometry that might affect alignment of the drive shaft, etc?

Thanks.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

the cutting height of a 3pt disc mower? The cutting height is mainly controlled by the angle of the cutterbar to the ground....on a three point that would be the top link. This adjustment allows for a good bit of change. If it's not enough I would install the high skid plates. I doubt you would have to get any higher? But if you did, I suppose some fabricating might help. The mower does need to be resting on the ground and skidding. If the weight of the mower is relagated to the hydraulic cylinder, damage will incur and it will never follow ground contours correctly. Other than the increased potential for blowdown of the crop, I see no reason why it wouldn't cut the crop. Hth


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

My understanding is that your mower should float over the ground. My trailed 7230 requires that I put the hydraulics in float so that there is not undue pressure on the cutter bar and that the cutter bar follows the contour of the ground.

I put grass shoes on this mower to allow me mow between 3.5 and 5.5" tall. Except for alfalfa, I run at the 5.5" setting because, even at that setting, I'll sometimes get into low spots where the cutter blades want to gouge the ground. And I want as much OG crown available as possible for regrowth.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JungleForage said:


> 2. If the answer is yes, then do you think it would be relatively easy to add some "spacers" or "extra metalwork" of some sort to increase the height between the cutterbar and the shoes to raise the cutting height?
> 
> 3. Is there some reason why customising the mower to raise the cutting height might not work, for example due to changes in the geometry that might affect alignment of the drive shaft, etc?
> 
> Thanks.


I tried to build some skid shoes for a fella disc mower I had....they turned out nice looking....but did not perform nicely....they wanted to "dig" at times which was very destructive. I never got them tweaked....but your results could be different. Before I went to the trouble of customization I would see if you could get some that were engineered for your particular mower....I could not buy "factory" shoes for my mower.

Regards, Mike


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

One other thing to consider is that the higher the skid shoes, the more "twisting" force (torque) it puts on the cutterbar, due to the longer moment arm (leverage) of the shoes contacting the ground (resistance) being further away from the cutterbar (because it's higher up from the ground). IOW, the higher the skid shoes, the harder it is on the cutterbar and the more twisting force it's putting on the bar and the mounts (usually on either side of the gearbox, which holds the cutterbar level.

I'd go with factory hi-skids if they have them, but I don't think I'd go much higher than that... a little might be okay, maybe an inch or two (between the hi-skids and the bar mounting points for them) but that's about it... Which you can probably get by lengthening the top link turnbuckle to tilt the cutterbar back (raising the front of the bar where the crop is actually cut.) As someone else pointed out, the higher you go, the more likely you are to get blowdown from air whipped up in front of the cutterbar and a raggedy cut.

Later! OL J R


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## Northcountryboy (May 5, 2015)

I have the H7320 discbine and the offer the high stubble kit. Which consists of 8 (high skid shoes). Cutting height is approximately (5inches). After installing it is necessary to readjust the header floatation.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

Thank you all for your replies.

I'm confused by Devil Dawg's and Ralph's replies. DD is saying the mower shouldn't rely on the hydraulics to support the weight of the mower, but Ralph are you saying that you lift the mower off the ground, so that the shoes are not skidding along the ground (most of the time but only when you come to high spots)?

Apart from Ralph's reply, which I'm not clear about, it sounds to me like trying to cut higher than the height intended for the factory shoes isn't going to work very well.

I was actually thinking of a combination of a front mower and a rear centre pivot trailed mower to get a total cutting width of min. 6 metres.

So how about self-propelled mowers/windrowers? Do they also need to skid along the ground? How about sickle bar mowers? What is the best way to cut the crop at not less than 10 inches? We might want to go a few inches higher than that. There's some research that says even 12 - 15 inches may give the best results for the crops we want to grow. (BTW I'm using inches now because I see all of you guys are from the USA! I was raised on feet and inches but living out here for a while I now use metres and centimetres).

Thanks.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I think you may have mistaken Ralph's take on the mower skidding in the ground.....it would be easier with a moco to keep the bar suspended off the ground. With a 3 point, the lift arms would be taking the strain and the hydro cylinder that is designed for lifting only.....most are single acting, gravity pulls it down not really intended for suspension of the cutterbar.....with a moco for example, they have two cylinders on both sides of the cutterbar and springs on both sides to dampen the load, still it would be best to have the bar barely skidding the ground, that's a fine adjustment on the springs. Not so much that the cutterbar stays in the air after an undulation but not so much friction that it drags too much...maybe that will clarify

Btw, I'm not trying to speak for Ralph, he's a whole lot wiser than myself....think you just misunderstood his take....


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JungleForage said:


> Thank you all for your replies.
> 
> I'm confused by Devil Dawg's and Ralph's replies. DD is saying the mower shouldn't rely on the hydraulics to support the weight of the mower, but Ralph are you saying that you lift the mower off the ground, so that the shoes are not skidding along the ground (most of the time but only when you come to high spots)?
> 
> Apart from Ralph's reply, which I'm not clear about, it sounds to me like trying to cut higher than the height intended for the factory shoes isn't going to work very well.


What I am saying is that the cutter bar needs to float on the ground. This requires that the hydraulics be set to open. On the 7230, there are springs that keep the bar down and they need to be set to the correct pressure for either factory shoes or the high stubble kit.

If the hydraulics are closed, the pressure from ground changes will put stresses on the bar and the pressure springs aren't able to function.

Ralph


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

See, I told you he was smart....I forgot to mention that, my hydraulics are always set to float.....


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

OKay, thanks DD and Ralph. Sorry I didn't get it first time round. (Perhaps I'm not so smart and a lot of this is a new subject for me.)

So that seems to confirm I can't cut high with these kinds of disc mowers.

I think the sp sicklebar machines can cut high (or not?) but they don't seem to come with roller conditioners, and sickle bars are a lot slower than discs, (or so I've read)?

Taking into account the problem that Luke mentioned, I wonder if it would be possible to mount the disc mower on a "frame" (to keep it from twisting) with wheels (to take the weight)?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

This conversation kinda reminds me of a quote from Tom Dorrance (renowned horseman):

"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."

My brain twists on that one way too much.

Ralph


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

JungleForage said:


> OKay, thanks DD and Ralph. Sorry I didn't get it first time round. (Perhaps I'm not so smart and a lot of this is a new subject for me.)
> 
> So that seems to confirm I can't cut high with these kinds of disc mowers.
> 
> ...


Check out a Deere moco (disc) or NH sickle machines (called haybines) they would be a better bet for your application I believe......Deere would be like a 635,835. Not sure the NH numbers but seems like a 1431 or something like that.....it's a haybine (sickle)


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## 10ecfarmer (Jun 9, 2015)

On my Vermeer TM 700, I use a short chain on each hydraulic lift cylinders to stop the cutter bar at about 3" from ground, I just put the control valve on float, never had any problems,


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

10ecfarmer said:


> On my Vermeer TM 700, I use a short chain on each hydraulic lift cylinders to stop the cutter bar at about 3" from ground, I just put the control valve on float, never had any problems,


Do you mean your skid shoes are not usually skidding along the ground (apart from when you hit molehills)?

What do you reckon would be the highest cutting height you could achieve (using shorter chains?)?

Thanks.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Check out a Deere moco (disc) or NH sickle machines (called haybines) they would be a better bet for your application I believe......Deere would be like a 635,835. Not sure the NH numbers but seems like a 1431 or something like that.....it's a haybine (sickle)


Thanks DD. They look like nice mowers but don't fit all the criteria that I'd like have in one package.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

rjmoses said:


> This conversation kinda reminds me of a quote from Tom Dorrance (renowned horseman):
> 
> "I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
> 
> ...


If I understand the quote, and you're saying it to me, it means I didn't understand what you told me about mowers.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

JungleForage said:


> If I understand the quote, and you're saying it to me, it means I didn't understand what you told me about mowers.


No, I was not saying it to you directly.

Instead, I was commenting on the difficulties of communication--one person expressing a thought in such a way that another person can understand precisely what is intended.

BTW: I noticed your location is Thailand. I'm guessing you're thinking of doing something different than alfalfa and grass hay? I'd be curious to hear more about your forage thoughts and plans.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> BTW: I noticed your location is Thailand.
> 
> Ralph


Actually, the IP address says Illinois....might be one of your wild and crazy neighbors. 

Regards, Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Vol said:


> Actually, the IP address says Illinois....might be one of your wild and crazy neighbors.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Interesting!!!! I don't have access to the IP address.

But the spelling of "centimetres" in the first post is European/Asian vs US spelling of "centimeters". Now I'm wondering....

Ralph


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

I have no idea why the IP address says Illinois. I did once visit Illinois, but that was in 1981.

I am actually in Laos at the moment, but the forage will be grown in Thailand. (Perhaps some of you guys were in this area during the 60s and 70s?).

I'm originally from England, hence centimetres not centimeters. Though in Thailand, when using English, they tend to use US spelling.

We're planning several tropical forages including Brachiaria hybrids, Mombasa guinea grass and Kenaf, plus some others. I doubt alfalfa will grow here. We'll try a bunch and see what works best.

Plan is to make forage to sell to others (dairy and beef farms) in Thailand and elsewhere in Asia.

But Ralph is right that I didn't understand some of the things I was being told. For example, I only realised yesterday what "moco" means! (I might have got it more quickly if it was mow-con!).

I also had not understood that mowers mounted on the 3-point linkage don't come with conditioners (or do they?).

I also realised after DD suggested some particular machines, that the moco is already mounted on a "frame with wheels" so there is no weight on the 3pt hydraulics that Ralph was talking about. The question is, can the moco be "stabilised" to prevent the twisting problem that Luke talked about, or perhaps he was referring only to a mounted "mo" without a "co"?

If ECFarmer's method of keeping the mower up with chains on will work for me at heights of 10 - 15 inches then I think that will be the solution I am seeking.

If someone could put me straight once and for all on how I can cut grass with discs at heights of 10 - 15 inches, i.e. with skid shoes off the ground, I'll be a happy man! 

I may be wrong, but I don't think the blow down will be a problem due to the high density of the crop.

Thanks guys.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol...funny stuff there JF

I don't remember the post Luke made but I believe that yes he was referring to a 3 pt mount as it will "twist" with friction and of the cutter bar being so heavy on its end, in relationship to its mounting point on the tractor.

I have obviously never needed anything like this, but I believe some type of MoCo with the frame to suspend the cutterbar as was mentioned in a earlier post is your very best option. The cutterbar weight will be suspended from the overhead frame. That sounds like the best option. Or perhaps a windrower  (sorry just couldn't stand it) hth


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

JungleForage said:


> But Ralph is right that I didn't understand some of the things I was being told. For example, I only realised yesterday what "moco" means! (I might have got it more quickly if it was mow-con!).
> 
> I also had not understood that mowers mounted on the 3-point linkage don't come with conditioners (or do they?).
> 
> ...


Do you need to condition? If you are making silage you may not need a conditioner. Eliminating the conditioner will reduce blowing down the crop. ECfarmer's mower doesn't have a conditioner so it is lighter, but he is bypassing the mower's rubber torsion floatation. That is not an issue for most people because the mower is not touching the ground.

On the Vermeer mower conditioners we have a topping cylinder setup that will allow a six inch cutting height while still allowing the floatation to work. However 10" is higher than I could promise.

Most mower conditioners I have seen will only raise to about 15"-18" so you are going to run with the mower in the transport position. To get much more lift/cutting height. you may need bigger tires etc.


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## 10ecfarmer (Jun 9, 2015)

JungleForage said:


> Do you mean your skid shoes are not usually skidding along the ground (apart from when you hit molehills)?
> 
> What do you reckon would be the highest cutting height you could achieve (using shorter chains?)?
> 
> Thanks.


I had the standard shoes, the price quote for hi - clearance shoes was $600 - $700, chains were $5.00, I'm cutting @ about 6 + inches high,, Cutter bar never touches the ground, I never had any problems doing it this way, I would assume you could cut even higher, never tried myself..


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

following this closely. I've always wanted to install stubble kit on my 7230


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

E220 said:


> Do you need to condition? If you are making silage you may not need a conditioner. Eliminating the conditioner will reduce blowing down the crop. ECfarmer's mower doesn't have a conditioner so it is lighter, but he is bypassing the mower's rubber torsion floatation. That is not an issue for most people because the mower is not touching the ground.
> 
> On the Vermeer mower conditioners we have a topping cylinder setup that will allow a six inch cutting height while still allowing the floatation to work. However 10" is higher than I could promise.
> 
> Most mower conditioners I have seen will only raise to about 15"-18" so you are going to run with the mower in the transport position. To get much more lift/cutting height. you may need bigger tires etc.


Yes we would like to have a conditioner for faster drying/wilting. We're mainly interested to make pellets. We have a drier in the factory, so the more water we can lose in the field, the lower the subsequent transport (field to factory) and drying costs.

It's good that you mentioned the transport position because I did see a photo, in a moco brochure, showing a tractor pulling the mower along the road and I thought to myself that looks about the right height! You mentioned 15 - 18". We don't need to go higher than that. So would a disc moco work okay in the transport position?

I'm not sure I understand the flotation part. I guess that in transport position flotation won't work? Would that matter much - what would be the disadvantage of not having flotation?

Another issue is that I'd like to achieve a 6m (20ft) cutting width, so I was thinking about a rear mower conditioner of about 3m (10ft) and a front moco of about 3 m (10ft), perhaps with some overlap depending models and widths. But I don't know if there are any front mounted mower-conditioners and if they would work in transport mode (to get the height)?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Damn it man.....we went for a 3 pt to combo purity quick.....may not be a stretch on that windrower  lol
How smooth is the land? Lack of float may not be much of a problem.....surely you can match a rear to a front mounted unit transport height, having never don it.....I would think Kuhn (for example) would make transport height the same between front and rear, but perhaps may need some adjustment. Yes you can condition with the front as well.....claas/Kuhn/krone and others make the units you mentioned...
Have ya checked out the windrowers yet? Sounds like that may be the ticket for you......but I like spending other folks money too.....


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Been following this with interest. I remember how difficult the terminology was for me just switching from a square baler to a round baler. I can feel for anyone trying to learn hay from scratch.

Krone makes a 3 point hitch disc mower that also has a conditioner.http://www.krone-northamerica.com/english/krone-produkte/disc-mowers/rear-mounted-disc-mowers-easycut/easycut-280-cv-q-320-cv-q/

I do not believe it will cut as high as you need to cut but I did want to answer the question since it was asked.

I have an older Vicon 241 moco. I believe it is made by someone else now. To transport, we raise the hydraulics up (extend the cylinders), then close a valve on each of the 2 cylinders. When we are ready to cut, we open the valve and allow fluid to flow as needed. I am curious if the cylinders could be lowered to the desired height and the transport valves locked?

I also wonder if some type of manual stop could be placed on the cylinder, like the doughnut stops we snap over the cylinder shaft when we want to raise a batwing mower to cut higher?

If the stops could be added to the lift cylinders on a moco the hydraulics could still be used to raise the mower if needed.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Yeah I was talking about strictly 3 point hitch disk mowers... the torque issue I mentioned wouldn't be an issue on a mo-co, discbine, haybine or whatever because the way the bar is mounted and "pushed" or "pulled" by the suspension to the wheels/frame is different.

Not sure about front mounts-- that's an unknown machine in these parts-- never seen one outside a sales brochure...

You CAN get a 3 point mount disk mower with a conditioner (Kverneland makes them, I think they're Lely's-- you can see them on YouTube) BUT they are HEAVY for a 3 point... Honestly if I were you looking to do what you want to do, I'd be looking for a good center-pivot mo-co, discbine, haybine, etc...

Talked to any Aussies about this?? I bet they're more familiar with yall's style of doing things than we are (and can maybe point you toward something closer to your part of the world??)

Best of luck!

OL J R


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

DD you're right that Krone has the Easy Cut front mower with rollers: EasyCut F 360CR. I think it costs around $40,000. And then we could combine it with the rear EasyCut 3210 CRi. Not sure of the price of the latter - I'll ask Krone. I'll also check with them about the operating height. Together with a tractor, it will work out a lot cheaper than say the s.p. Krone BiGM420.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

Thanks Tim, but I prefer the rear model I mentioned so that we can switch from left to right. We want to do a controlled traffic farming system with 6m widths.

Those doughnut stops sound handy. Made by Dunkin?


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

Thanks Luke. The problem is I want a 6m (20ft) cutting width for a controlled traffic farming system and the only rear moco I found so far (Krone) that cuts 6m (20ft) only has tines, not rollers. Anyhow, I'll see what Krone has to say about cutting heights front and rear.


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

JungleForage said:


> Thanks Luke. The problem is I want a 6m (20ft) cutting width for a controlled traffic farming system and the only rear moco I found so far (Krone) that cuts 6m (20ft) only has tines, not rollers. Anyhow, I'll see what Krone has to say about cutting heights front and rear.


One word of caution. There may be a reason that 20' Krone only comes with tines. If it moves the hay from the two outside discs toward the center to make it go through the conditioner, there will be more mass there. If that mass on either side opens the rolls, the crop flowing through the center is not being crimped at all. With a tine system, the manufacturer can compensate by adding tines or ribs to make the outside more aggressive.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Thailand , the land of smiling faces.

I was flying inside the B-52, South from a base south of Bangkok.

Thailand is an interesting country, with friendly people.

My first mission from Thailand was the Fall of 1967 and the last time was Spring of 1972.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Thailand , the land of smiling faces.
> 
> I was flying inside the B-52, South from a base south of Bangkok.
> 
> ...


There you are. I said earlier that perhaps some of you were around here in the 60s and 70s. Here in my garden here in Laos, just a few yards from where I'm writing this I have several bomb craters courtesy of the USAF - locals sometimes call them "American fish ponds"  Unfortunately, my volcanic soil is too well draining to hold water. There were also some pieces of UXO (unexploded ordinance = bombs) but they were removed by the experts after we got the land. Now I'm growing some blackberries from plants that I imported from California. So we've converted from US bombs to US blackberries!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Good stuff right there......we went from stopping the spread of communism to aiding and abetting the proliferation of blackberries.....at least it wasn't sandburrs or pigweed 

Post some pics of the country side and the farming practices JF, would love to see them....


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

Okay DD, I will post some pics for you, but it may be after a few days because I'm currently buried eye-deep in spreadsheets for budgeting this new forage project.

Talk of the devil (not you DD), just a few minutes ago I heard a loud bomb explosion. Hopefully, it was the UXO guys doing their job and not a farmer doing some ploughing!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Wishing you well in this venture. Who takes care of the UXO?


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Yeah, I've seen stuff about the dangers of UXO... mines, cluster bomblets, etc... still killing people decades later... very bad stuff...

Later and best of luck! OL J R


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

E220 said:


> One word of caution. There may be a reason that 20' Krone only comes with tines. If it moves the hay from the two outside discs toward the center to make it go through the conditioner, there will be more mass there. If that mass on either side opens the rolls, the crop flowing through the center is not being crimped at all. With a tine system, the manufacturer can compensate by adding tines or ribs to make the outside more aggressive.


Huh? You just described exactly how a 1431 New Holland Discbine works and they have rollers.

Krone and others are mainly European where making dry hay is a fools quest at best so bale it wet and wrap it. Also no Alfalfa that I've seen in the UK yet so tine conditioning is acceptable. Maybe the South of France where you're getting close to Spains much drier climate alfa;fa could be made dry with a much greater chance of success.


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## JungleForage (Jan 20, 2016)

deadmoose said:


> Wishing you well in this venture. Who takes care of the UXO?


Thanks DM. There is a government department with teams of guys (and gals) around the country who work full-time clearing land of UXO. They go around with metal detectors, find the UXO, then pile it up in a bomb crater and detonate it. Per capita, Laos qualifies as the most bombed place on Earth. But, contrary to what the government here would like people to believe, not all the UXO came from America. Some of it came from ground troops, e.g. mortars, etc.


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