# Baling Corn Stover for Large Scale Biomass Production.



## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

I have been reading some of the threads from the different sites on Stover baling and would like to get so input on equipment that would make large scale baling possible. I believe that having the corn combine doing anything more than getting the corn harvested is not feasible. Most years the combine has enough problems of it's own getting through the crop. I would consintrate on the follow-up operations to improve the collection process. The Stover will need to dry down some most years and will need to be left scattered for a few days. The next step would be to either rake or shred/windrow for baling. I would lean more to the shredder than the rake as the Biomass plant will pay better for more cob content in the bale and the shredder will do a better job on vaccuuming them up then the rake. For this same reason I also wouldn't want to put them back on the ground in a windrow as the baler has some trouble picking up the cobs. I would like to have the shredder mounted right in front of the baler so the stover is put into the baler as it is picked up. The advantages to this set-up would be cleaner stover in the bales, no swaths left in the field that could be rained on and take days to dry out again, and you could run the shredder higher to leave more residue or stalks on the field. They are saying that you can take 1/3 of the stover off of the field with little to no effect on the fertility of the ground for the next crop. What do you think of this set-up? Would it be a feasible operation?


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## TBrown (Nov 27, 2008)

I have found here in IL that the most moisture is found in the foot of stalk still attached to the rootball after harvest. In most cases I dont think shredding the stalks directly infront of the baler would work here. It normally takes a day for the stalks to get dry enough to bale. Just my 2 cents.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Most of the farmers here use the chopping style heads so the stover would be chopped up some and be able to dry out quite a bit in a couple of days. I have a farmer friend in SD that uses a Loftness 8 row shredder/windrower and he keeps it around 12 inches off the ground and even at 8 mph it will vacuum the cobs up very well. The stover bales that I have been working with have stored well at just under 25% moisture, any wetter than that and they heated up some and turned black. I think that I could get bale at 25 or under with this set-up. I do think I would need to use a shredder that has the auger to windrow the crop as there would not be enough room for the Loftness style in front of the baler.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Big question is does it pay enough to justify the time and expense? Does it pay well enough to make the payments and repairs on the equipment now and too buy new stuff when the stalks prematurely wear the baler out?

Far as taking a 1/3 off and not effecting fertility...maybe, but you still have a 1/3 less organic matter to build the soil up with. I'd like to have a 1/3 MORE organic matter to be perfectly frank.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

The last time I meet with a represntive for the Biomass company, they were thinking the stover price would be around $75 to $80 per ton at the gate for under 20% moisture bales. There would be extra payment for trucking if the field was more than 25 miles from the plant. You could have them take it off with custom crews and then they would pay around $20.00 to $25.00 a ton for it on the ground. The price is set by the cost of Fert. for the crop year, to compensate for nutrient loss costs. Granted the Stover itself is maybe a 10 to 15% profit at best, the real money to be made is in the baling/trucking end of the process. This plant will need up to 500,000 tons/yr. of wheat straw and corn stover if it they ever get it started.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I have looked at this with the same angle as you are for a year now. It was really the buzz at the Agconnect show in Orlando last January, it will be interesting to see if they are still as excited this year in Atlanta. There are just so many angles to the whole process, but from my perspective none of it will fly without massive gov't grants to prop it up and nobody really knows how long the money will keep flowing in, if at all. I think there may be an opportunity to make a few bucks early on, IF it ever actually works, but I can assure you that the baling and trucking will eventually be awarded to the lowest bid, and the "real money" will be a distant memory. I hope you are able to put something together in your location that lines your pockets, I'll be watching from the sidelines here because I am still not convinced that it is a good long term project.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

There is a project in testing for cellulostic ethanol going on 50 miles from me.I know a few people involved in it.They don't want it raked or shreded to keep the dirt out of it.They are runing stalk stompers on 2 rows under combine and only baling what is dropped behind combine.Getting about a ton per acre.This year they baled 55,000 bales as a test run.And next yr 110,000 bales.Everyone is going threw the motions just to see if it can be done.from baling to delivering to the plant.Which isn't even built yet.Looks to me like everyone is going to get a piece of the pie.Custom balers,truckers,and the farmer.This is not a heavy livestock area so baling stalks was new to most.A baler dealer opened shop just because of this.And most of the new balers were bought by guys to custom bale.He sold 18 new balers just for this.

It sounds like most of the farmers just want to sell the stover and have the rest custom done.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

I've been in the research loop on the Biomass Ethanol for 3 yrs now and I know it is going to work. The biggest problem to overcome is the feedstock collection at that big of scale. The plants will all start out with about 1/2 capacity and ramp up the nexr 2 yrs to full. We are finding in all the research in the different ares that the farmers would just like it done by custom operators and have it off as soon as possible, within 4-5 days after harvest. Thats a very close time frame. I believe the plants will start up on straw and stover and eventualy add so dedicated crop acres like forage sorghum and hay/grasses to spread out the collection time frame. The weather risk factor is 1/10th as bad with the others crops added. It will also allow the custom operators to keep the equipment running for a much longer season and get more return/dollar/yr on the equipment. Some companies have been making Ethanol from straw for 5 yrs now and the process works. Getting the straw is the problem.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I will assume for the sake of argument that this project will work because you say it does, with that I have a few simple questions. First, you speak of moisture being around 20% at harvest. Anyone who utilizes stover for livestock feed knows that the cost to grind it rises exponentially as moisture levels rise above 15%. So why is 20% and up acceptable at the plant? Next, why are round balers even a consideration for the collection process? Round bales present a storage and transportation nightmare, and yet the project at Emmetsburg gathered up a huge pile of them. What do they expect them to be like a year from now? I have a hard time believing that decision was the result of careful research. As you said, the big challenge to overcome is efficient collection and transport of material, so isn't the use of rounds a huge step backwards? What would be the thought process behind this program? Finally, I looked at the combine with the baler in tow last year in orlando and came to the same conclusion as you did. So what exactly is the best way to harvest the stover in terms of how the plant will use the material?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

IAhaymakr brings up some good points.What would they do in a year like 2009?Moisture on cornstalk bales was over 30%.I don't know if that is a issue with the ethanol process.But I'd hate to pile up a few thousand bales in one spot.It could make a heck of a big fire.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

I will try and answer all these as best as I am alowed. We have ruled out round bales completely as you said they don't take to handling well and are difficult to store in large volumes. The transportation cost would also be quite a bit higher. The stover would be graded and stored acording to the moisture content and the wetter bale would deffinetly need to be used up before the warmer weather in the spring. The test bales (3x4 and 4x4s) all kept well at 20% and lower. The bales that we did up at 12% are on the 3rd yr of covered storage are are in great condition yet. For wet years (08 and 09 here) we wouldn't have been able to get anything baled until freeze -up and the bales would have been very wet and need to be used before they thawed out. The bvales from each field will be stored in that field edge until needed at the plant. (Insurance reasons). The material only has to be ground through a 1/4 inch screen and the 25% moisture dosn't slow the right style of grinders down much. Some of the grinders will slow down greatly. 
The best way we found to bale the stover so far was to combine it and shred/windrow right behind the combine. Wait a day or so and bale it. We were getting 12 to 15% bales that way. Weather would play a role in the drying time. We like the 3x4 bales the best as you can get a better load on the trucks.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Even this year, direct baling would not have worked here. Over half the corn acres were combined with stalks still being green and full of juice below the ear. THe grain was coming off in the 15 to 19% range. Guys here are not going to let $6 corn hang in the field while the stover dries down enough to direct bale behind a combine. Local plant here wants to pay about $30/ton and have no BCAP payments yet. I'll take my residue and be happy. Best thing that happened to my farm was to stop chopping corn silage (complete stover harvest) and trying to regain nutrients with manure. Not even going to get any manure back from these guys. As far as money to be made custom baling, better use a whole new set of numbers as compared to custom baling hay. Baling stalks has to be much harder on balers just because of the abrasiveness and all the dirt involved.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

On the wetter stalks the dirt would stick in the lower corners of the bale chamber, there is a plastic liner that really helps with this problem. On the drier stalks the biggest problem was leaves in the knotters. The baler needs to have a good blower system to keep the knotters clean. Most of the new ones are equipted with blower systems. I would agree that any plant that thinks it can use just stover won't last long because of the dry-down problem. As you say when the corn crop is ready it will be combined wether the stalks are green or not. They do that here quite often. The ground here is deep black Fargo Clay and most of the farmers think the stover is a nuisence to get worked in so they can plant the next crop. The ground needs to be at least 75% black or it take forever to warm up and dry up in the spring. Most all of the corn is planted into beans the next year. Wheat follows beans and beets are next. A lot of farmers are trying to plant beets in the corn stover but it has not worked out to well. They are finding out that it takes around 90 lbs actual Nitrigen to rot the corn stover in the ground and needs to be added above the normal to get a good followup crop. With beans the added Nitrigen is not needed. Of course you get that 90 back the following year (second year after corn) as the nutreints are broke down enough to be used by the crop. It's just tied up for a year.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

Joe...I see those guys in Carlyle never did get the BCAP program...wonder why, nobody can give them stuff for $30 a ton, cannot figure out what they are doing...just their own I guess. It does take as Joe remarked...a different set of numbers. Belts, tines, even gathering wheels on the baler if you have them take a beating compared to hay. If you have to use a disk mower the blades take a beating as does a rake if needed. Stalks play heck on tires.

Another question...that I have trouble figuring out and cannot wrap my mind around...residue nutrients...I have seen different numbers...some saying to do it and others saying it is negligible and baling the stalks is better...any recommendations on a good information source. The Purdue guys give different numbers...depending if you talk to the biomass guys or the row crop guys...go figure.

I have run my numbers and always come out better doing hay vs biomass and the only way stalks etc would be worth it is if the plant had a BCAP agreement and was within 25-30 miles max. Have attended the conferences and talked to folks pushing it and just do not see it working for me.

Like the discussion, I learn things all the time...thanks.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I still think you are underestimating the importance of harvesting the material DRY. Grinding through a quarter inch screen will take tremendous horsepower at low moisture levels, And probably unimaginable horsepower at higher moisture levels. It seems like everyone involved in this project wants to focus on how to bale and truck this stuff, and gloss over what it will be like trying to process it back at the plant. My custom hay grinder brings 750 hp to my yard, and dry material will fly thru at 70 ton per hour. But if you throw in a few 30% bales it will choke it down to less than half of that, and we are running a 5 inch screen. I have heard whispers of "some dockage" for higher moisture material, just wait till they actually try to grind some. Those of us in the hay harvesting business can easily solve the baling, storage, trucking and handling issues, we just can't overcome our skepticism toward a process that has so many logistical problems that seem to get overlooked. All of these problems can be solved, but at what cost? You already have a lot of $$$ tied up in a low value product, I believe your cost to get material from field to processed could be easily double what the industry is allowing, and I am not factoring in any kind of value for the residue from a fertilty standpoint. Keep hammering away at it, that is how problems get solved. Obviously grain ethanol is produced far more efficiently now than it was 20 years ago.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

This is a real good paper on plant nurient values. http://www.nm.nrcs.usda.gov/technical/tech-notes/agro/AG14.pdf
This is one of the very few articles on long term removal of stover on ground nutrients. http://css.cals.cornell.edu/cals/css/extension/upload/3_Harvesting_Corn_Residue_for_Biofuel.pdf


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

I was the plant engineer for PrimeBoard here in town, and we were grinding 30,000 tons of wheat straw a year while I was working there. It dose take a lot of hp to grind straw, but the biggest huddle to the process is feeding the straw into the grinders evenly. The bale breakers they had started with were originaly designed to hog wood and would not shred the bales at all. The wet bales would plug up the screens and were set aside until they froze. Later they tried to run them and the bales would just set at the rotors and the push chains would break. They tried to make them work for 2 yrs and thats when I started there. It took me 2 months and both of the bale breakers could process 35 tons/hr of whatever type bale you put in them. You just can't beat straw into small pieces, you need to cut it. I have just changed over a grinder at the plant I'm at now and the capacity has more than doubled to 30 tons/hr with 1/5th the amp draw on the motor. This grinder runs at 1200 rpm and has 400 hp. Same type of wood hog grinder. The processing end of the plants are typicaly going to use some sort of bale-breaker with around 200 hp to sepatate the bales and feed it into a grinder with around 600 hp to size the material. There will be multible lines of this equipmentwith a capacity of up to 35 tons/hr on each line. The grinding process should add close to $8.00 a ton to the cost of the straw. I think corn stover will be about 20% higher than that as it will grind harder and wear the equipment out faster. I have been in this type of job for 14 yrs now, and I still like to learn more about it every day.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I will not attempt to dispute your numbers as to the cost of grinding straw, but I am confident enough to say that wet corn residue will add more than 20% to the cost if you try to put it thru a quarter inch screen. I have seen 30% shelled corn PLUG a quarter inch screen in an 1100 hp grinder. Corn residue turns to gum if it isn't properly dried before it is ground. Lots of power, lots of cost, very little progress. Bottom line, will all of this effort to turn a lump of coal into a diamond really ever pay? How much fuel will this process yield per acre, or per ton of residue, and what must the fuel be valued at for the project to get out of the red?


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## TBrown (Nov 27, 2008)

This is an awesome discussion. Dan and IAhaymaker I commend you for having this discussion. I wish everyone involved in cellulosis would stick their neck out like Dan in conversations like this. There is alot to be learned from one another. I agree that the end users need to get us producers the specs they want us to provide and pay us appropriately to produce it. I am confident we will figure it out. Yes wear and tear is higher but as the demand requires it we will modify the equipment to make it work. Instead of worrying about us gathering so much, work on getting it processed as cheap as possible in your plants so you can put the money out for us to develop a means of supplying it as the demand calls for it.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Wheat Straw will yield 80 to 85 gallons of Ethanol per Dry Ton. Corn stover has close to the same sugars so it should be close to the same yield. The Cellulostic process is 80% more efficient than a dry mill corn kernal plant. The Biomass produces 3 products, Ethanol, Potash, and Lingin. The lingin can be burned in the boiler for steam generation or processed through a Biomass Gasifier to make Syngas that can be used to power electric turbines or distilled into Ethanol. (It would then add another 6-7 gallons per ton to the yield). The Potash would be sold back to the farmers to spread on thier fields. The plant would be self sufficient needing no external energy sources to operate. The Biomass plants cost 3 times as much to put up because of all the fermentation storage. I will be testing wet corn stover bales through some different types of grinders this spring. I think it will be a great learning experiance.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Sorry Guys but it's time to shut down for the day. Have a Christmas Party to go to. 
I'll take this up agian tomorrow morning. Thanks for all the info. More think'n and read'n to do now.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Regardless of how many nutrients are actually lost by taking even a third of the stover, I think the lost organic matter is being grossly overlooked. We have some brookstone soils here and the hilltops are like cement. Every year for about ten we would spread all the penpacked manure on these hilltops just for the straw in the pack and the resulting OM. Took a long time to loosen those hilltops up and like I said in a previous post, I want more OM on these soils, not less.

In certain soils I could see taking some off wouldn't hurt em, but how long could this be done before the soil starts to suffer from lost OM?


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## TBrown (Nov 27, 2008)

I believe they are recommending removal one every four years in a corn on corn situation. This should actually give you a better organic matter conversion by keeping the C:N ratio more balanced. I would agree with mlappin if someone is removing stalks every year.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

HERE.Crop removal tends to raise yields in some situations.It can be cold and wet in the spring and by removing some stalks it is blacker and warms up faster.Organic matter is around 5%.So short term no harm would be done but you would still be taking off nutrients.Then there is guys heavy in livestock where the soil tests are off the charts so nutrient removal isn't an issue.It might even be a benefit to keep them in compliance with their manure managment plan.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

Have a another question...not to muddy the water, but for my curiosity...what is the by product of the process for stover and the by product of the process for grasses. Curious since corn is DDGs...if the left over for the other products has any value and if it does could it be pelletized? Reason I ask is I know these guys that pelletize DDGs... Ag Fuel and Feed - Solutions for the Ethanol Industry One of them is here in Indy and a good friend and they pelletize the DDGs... makes it easy to ship the by-product Anyway just curious and thanks in advance. Really like this thread, gives plenty to think about and like folks are saying, maybe some ideas may surface to help both sides make this workable in the future..


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## Energy (Dec 26, 2010)

DDGS can be pelletized using 100% distillers, without any binders. The protein value is relatively high, whereas other forms, such as switch grass has a much lowre protein level. The density of DDGS in granular form 26% while if pelletized it increases to 40%, reducing the cost of shipping increasing shelf life and flowability.

Other distillers processed from grass have a lower ingrediate level, especially protein. If trying to pelletize these types of distillers, some other additive would be required to increase the ingrediate content.

If used other than as a feed, the BTu value of corn distillers is nearly 8,400btu while switch grass is around 7,800 to 8,000btu. To replace all the coal for a 25mw plant would require nearly 8,000 acres of switch grass. That is based on a yield of of 12 ton per acre, which is extremely high for the midwest. This is also based on the coal content being 12,000btu, which is common in the industry.

As for the ethanol industry, it would be important they would pelletize DDGS to reduce their shipping cost, unless their marketplace is local. A 20' ocean container has a volume of 1,280 cu. ft. and at todays cost per container will save $30.00 per ton when pelletized, instead of shipping in granular form. The same holds true for rail......


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> 1Organic matter is around 5%.So short term no harm would be done but you would still be taking off nutrients.


I'd love to have soils in the 5% range. Most of the home farm barely breaks 3%, the highest testing one is 3.6% and has been a pasture for 30 years. The sand in town runs around 2-2.5%.

Too many years of the moldboard, chiseling has help, biggest increases we see is in the fields we have been no-tilling for 10 years or better.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Good morning Guys
The end product from the Biomass fermintation (lignin) dosen't have any sugars left in it and wouldn't make very good cattle feed. The plants will ether burn it for Steam/Power or sell it to Power plants for them to burn. 
In an article written by David Morris (Cellulose to Ethanol: A Progress Report) He explains that for Stover or Straw the breakdown is approximately: 35% cellulose (C6 sugars), 35% hemicellulose (C5 sugars), 15% lignin, and 15% other. Right now the Microbes to convert the C6 sugars to Ethanol are readly available. The C5 sugars can not be made into Ethanol Profitably yet. All the Major players in the Business are working on getting the C5 sugars out Profitably (the Key word). This is the Top Secret Projects at all the companies. The process now uses a lot of acids to etch the cell lignin to get the sugar out. Not a very good way to do it. The challenge is that three enzines are actually needed to break down the cellulose. One enzine breaks down the cellulose apart. The second chews up the the ends of the resulting molecules. The third converts the feedstock into glucose (sugars). According to his article, Iogen (Iogen Corporation) is the leader in enzymatic conversion, and has been making ethanol at it's pilot plant in Ottawa, Canada since 2001. Check it out it's very interesting. If both of the sugars are removed the Ethanol can be made for around $1.90 to$2.00 a gallon now. This will get a lot better as the enzimes become cheaper to make with the larger scale operations.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan, Getting back to the harvesting of the stover, I recently listened to a program on TV from a guy at the Poet plant in Emmettburg, Iowa. He stated that they only wanted the stover from the ear and up. If this is the case, I'm guessing that you would have to figure out a way to harvest that product only and leave the rest of the stalks standing. Seems like you would somehow have to vacuum up the lighter tops of the stover and leave the heavier stalks standing until it came time to do tillage, shredding or some other means of getting your ground ready. Like most have said, I don't think farmers or custom harvesters are gonna want to pull a big square around behind their combine, especially if you don't have ideal conditions. 
Curious as how you could bale stover, especially with a bunch of stalks standing in the field. Great thread. Mike


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Yes Poets is after just from the cob up. They were only after the cobs to start with, but the collection and storage was looking to be a big problem. They then went to the baler set-up behind the combine to get the cobs and found out that they would need at least 15% of the stover MOC (material other than cob) to hold the bale together. So they will allow up to 25% MOC in the bales when delivered. I think that most of the Biomass plants as they come up will take anything they can get as long as it is dry enough to store. In the perfect harvest situation I would like to have a combine with a baler hooked up and using an all-crop head to run everything through the machine from 18" up and into the baler. It would be hard to get bales under the 20% moisture this way, but it would be the cleanest way to get it done. The next best way is to combime, shred, and then bale when the stover is dry enough.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I know a custom baler at Emmetsburg that baled stover for the ethanol project.

They ran stock stompers on combines center 2 rows,removed straw chopper and droped cobs,husks,etc in windrow.They just baled what the combine dropped going in same direction as combine so the pushed down rows wouldn't suck up into pickup.

I should be getting some of the bales next week for bedding so I'll see what it looks like first hand.They wanted alot of the cobs but depending on the corn and the setting of the combine some cobs busted up and didn't get in the bale.The way it sounded this must have been alot harder on the belts then baling stalks like you normaly would.I presume the cobs geting between belts and rollers.

This was a test run for the baling process.They havn't even broke ground for the plant and after that about 18 months to build it.

The Guberment is involved in funding so who knows.They could just pull the plug on it and alot of guys would be holding the bag.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Something else to take into consideration with the wild weather swings, some falls a decent supply of stover just may not be able to be had. We've went to straight no-till and even if the ground isn't getting cut up it doesn't mean we want to make an extra trip over it for any reason. It wasn't just but a few years ago it seemed the entire corn belt was a mudhole with crops being mudded out, left until it froze or even left until spring.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

The Biomass plants will need to have at least 1 full year if not 1-1/2 years of feedstock in storage around the area they are collecting in. A tarp to cover 160 tons in a stack costs around $600.00 and would protect the stack for close to 3 yrs with a little maintanance. There is also tarp companies that will supply a crew to tarp, maintain, and un-tarp the stack for $4.50/ton/yr. That includes the tarp cost/repair. The bales will be stacked in the field that they were taken from, and the farmer will be paid a yearly rental price for the use of the stack area. The inventory will be used and replaced on a 2 yr storage basis. The extra inventory is the one way to reduce the weather risk. Another way is to contract feedstock from a very large area and pay an extra premium for the trucking. The farmers will have the option of hauling the bales in or the plant will send trucks to haul them when needed.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

I have struggles with trying to keep a tarp on through the first winter, you got to be joking keeping one on the same stack for 3 years. Another small yet potentially huge problem with keeping a stack for 3 years--rats and mice! If you leave one kernal of corn in a bale of stalks, they are going to completely destroy the stack to find it. I baled some straw behind a combine that was not set correctly and after 4 months the bales were so bad that the strings were loose and coming off.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

If you don't mind, I'd like the name of the company that will cover and maintain a pile for $4.50 a ton. I can't do my own for that. Your tarp cost sounds like what I pay, but I would gladly pay someone to put them on and maintain them. I wouldn't count on three years lifespan on that tarp either. The wind will beat them tirelessly to the point that they a useless in less than a year, and sunlight takes its toll as well.

I hope I don't come accross as too negative towards your project. I am really just trying to share my own experiences so that you may adequately plan ahead and not be met with unpleasant surprises. I believe that most if not all of the problems that you are trying to solve are very much solvable for a price. I know nothing about your production costs aside from the basic cost of residue harvest, storage, and transport. I hope that there is a way to cover all costs in your extraction of 85 gallons from each ton of residue. I am just saying that I think your budget for grinding and storage costs will fall short of actual costs.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Western Ag is the company the we were getting quotes from for tarping the stacks. 
The reason I started this string is to get the kind of info from you guys that may be helpful for this project. A big Thanks to all who contributed their knowhow and experience. It will be very useful to me. I hope I have helped you guys to more understand what the industry is trying to do.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

For 4.50 a ton I hope Western doesn't mind a drive as I'll surely let em tarp some of mine for that price.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

What type of tie-downs are most comon of the tarps you guys are using?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Dan.hasbargen said:


> What type of tie-downs are most comon of the tarps you guys are using?


We have pockets on our tarps for pipes. I buy the 1 inch ratchet straps, non ratchet end goes around a pallet the hay is stacked on, ratchet end gets attached to the pipe, really sucks in the winter when the ratchets are froze solid.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan, At $4.50, you may want to consider a Coverall type system for storage. Marty has a lot of experience with them and I'm sure would know the cost, or maybe it would be cost effective for the farmer to put one up for storage on his farm. I personally have no experience with them. Just a thought. Mike


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Four fifty for tarping isn't that bad after I ran some numbers.

Last building I put up will hold approximately 500 bales.

Figure 1000lb bales for easy math.

So 250 tons stored in the building, at a cost of $14,500 (my cost two years ago for all materials).

Year one cost per ton: $58/ton for storage

At year 5 per ton: $11.60/ton for storage

At year 10 per ton: $5.80/ton for storage

At year 15 per ton: $3.80/ton for storage

To store the same 250 tons under tarps at 4.50/ton for tarping would only be $1125 a year, it would take 12.8 years to equal the cost of the building.

Tarping is much cheaper than erecting a building, however once several other factors are taken into account the building starts to gain clear advantages.

Once I start moving hay out, I have room to store equipment or park straight trucks. By spring we have enough room to completely segregate our seed by type, genetic factors and maturity, this saves an immense amount of time during planting if we can just drive in, and grab a pallet with the forklift instead of sorting thru all those pallets and mini bulks of seed.

Thru most of the summer as well I have storage to literally drive all the hay equipment in, once the buildings are full then it can be a day or two job to get all that stuff stored in various other barns on the farm and a few rented ones.

If stacked in a building the bales will continue to dry out, if stacked under a tarp, they will simply heat up and mold unless very dry when placed under the tarp. All the times I've round baled stalks in the fall, only twice could we stack em immediately under tarps, while if not excessively wet they could have been stacked in a building and would have kept instead of sitting under a tarp and turning to mulch.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Another option maybe?

Was talking with salesman and kicking idea around about using bale wrapper for wrapping corn stalk bales.Maybe get by with 2 wraps?Havn't crunshed the numbers on it yet.It would be mostly for bedding here.Maybe even wrap a couple yrs worth if having a nice fall to get them put up nice and dry.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

The amount of bales we would be covering makes buildings impractical. I just recieved another bid for tarps that are 40 x 80 with the tie-down clips that will fasten to the strings of the bottom bales. The bid was for 2800 tarps. For safety and insurance reasons we will keep the bales in the fields along the road side under tarps until they are rotated out of inventory. As the plants get up and operating, I think they will need to have at least 1 yr of inventory under tarps. Thats 500,000 tons. I have used the twine clip hold-downs on the test stacks and they held up real well for 2 yrs. We'll see how they do on the 3rd yr.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

The numbers I have from one of my tests were real close to tarping and I think all the plastic would be a nucience to get rid of. There would also be more labor cost to remove the wrap.


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## iflylow (Jan 21, 2010)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Dan, Getting back to the harvesting of the stover, I recently listened to a program on TV from a guy at the Poet plant in Emmettburg, Iowa. He stated that they only wanted the stover from the ear and up. If this is the case, I'm guessing that you would have to figure out a way to harvest that product only and leave the rest of the stalks standing. Seems like you would somehow have to vacuum up the lighter tops of the stover and leave the heavier stalks standing until it came time to do tillage, shredding or some other means of getting your ground ready. Like most have said, I don't think farmers or custom harvesters are gonna want to pull a big square around behind their combine, especially if you don't have ideal conditions.
> Curious as how you could bale stover, especially with a bunch of stalks standing in the field. Great thread. Mike


I think Poet has to play politics unfortuntley, and to get support of enviormentalists, they are saying that is all they want to remove. Once the plant is up and running, I think they will take everything they can get and find a way to deal with the dirt. Right now they are in the development stage and trying to stay on everyones good side. Some want our crop land to never be touched again, others that are less extreme just want to limit what we do remove. If Poet promotes they are taking 75% cobs and 25% moc, then they are more likley to get support than say a project that promotes flail chopping and taking 80% of everything.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan.hasbargen said:


> The numbers I have from one of my tests were real close to tarping and I think all the plastic would be a nucience to get rid of. There would also be more labor cost to remove the wrap.


Dan, I think either way you go, there will be labor involved. Will the tarping company be responsible to keep the tarps on the stacks and tight? I know that Anderson makes a compacting machine along with their wrappers that can compact the plastic which of course could be recycled. It just seems like you or someone would not have to worry about clips coming loose and tarps flapping in the breeze. Any way you go, it will be a pain. Mike


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Dan.hasbargen said:


> The numbers I have from one of my tests were real close to tarping and I think all the plastic would be a nucience to get rid of. There would also be more labor cost to remove the wrap.


Wrapping them would only work if again the fodder was very dry. Maybe in other areas of the country it happens that way, in our neck of the woods though we wait till their dry enough to keep thru the winter and no longer. Most years if we waited until they were 18% or under, they'd never get baled. I do want to try making em wet as possible one of these falls, then wrapping them and see what kind of silage would be made.


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## iflylow (Jan 21, 2010)

Idaho National Lab has done a lot of testing on wrapping large square bales of stover at several different moistures. From Poets perspective, having some mold and condensation damage doesnt effect what they are doing with the material. You probably wouldnt want to put any less than 4-5 layers of wrap to make sure and protect your product from wind and storm damage. Wrapping 3x4 bales 3 high with 5 layers of plastic would cost around $1.75/bale at $95.00 plastic cost. The main issue is the amount of real estate it takes to wrap everything in a 12 ft. high stack, rather than twice as high tarped. The bad side to tarps, you will be lucky to get 2 years use out of them and in a large scale plant, your liability ins. will be through the roof. Take a look at what Primeboard has been doing in Wahpeton, ND for over a decade. That is the closest thing to a large scale baling project I know of today.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

iflylow, Tell us what they are doing in Wahpeton. I have a friend that lives there but I doubt if she could tell me. Wahpeton is 70 miles from me. Mike


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Hello Guys
I have been travel for the last week and haven't been able to get to the forum. I was the plant engineer at Primeboard from Oct. 97 to Jan. 2001. When I started there they had tried to tarp the stacks in 1995, 2 bales wide and 4 bales high with a 5th bale in the center on top. They were using light plastic tarps that were made up at their sister company WCCO in Wahp. The tarps were tied down to the ground with ropes and stakes. The tarps were all blow off and ripped up by the next spring with plastic caught in every thing that would hook it. They were only using 5,000 to 7,000 tons/yr in 95 and 96, but were still buying 25,000 tons each year. Needless to say by the fall of 97 when I started there it was a big mess. There was easily 40,000 tons of rotten bales laying everywhere and the stacks had tipped in every direction but straight. It took us 2 yrs to get it cleaned up to tolerable levels. We started stacking the bales 8 high and 13 wide to minimize the amount of bales exposed to the weather. As long as we rotated the storage into the process we didn't have to many bales that couldn't be used. After I left there in 2001, they had the same problem in 05 and 06 with very wet baling/collecting seasons. The bales didn't store well and the stacks started to fall apart. They desided to move the stacks and restack the good bales while setting the bad bales aside. Now they have over 50,000 tons of rotten bales that are pushed into large piles of basically mulch that they can't do anything with. They still stack in the 8 x 13 stacks and that seems to work out well if the bales are stacked dry.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

[quote name='Dan.hasbargen;19031 Now they have over 50' date='000 tons of rotten bales that are pushed into large piles of basically mulch that they can't do anything with. .[/QUOTE']

Sounds like a cluster Yuck of an operation.I don't know what they pd for it but at $50 a ton that would be $2.5 million.$4 million at $80.Plus the cost of disposing of it.And to do it twice.

Could of paid for alot of steel roof.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Wonder how long it has to sit for all the net or twine to completely break down? If the plastic was gone, It certainly could be used for mulch, if it was close enough I have some sand ground with very low OM that could use 4-6 inches of that stuff spread on.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Exactly my thoughts Cy! I think buildings are your best assets. I have enough troubles with tarping! Mike


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

Hello Guys
While I was at Primeboard we were selling some of the mulched straw to gardeners by the spreader load and the twine was a real problem. The piles we were loading out of were 6 yrs old and the twine was as new condition. It gets wound up in every moving part there is on a machine. It takes a long time to get it all out of the straw and it seems you never do. Still shows up on the rear beaters. PrimeBoard has sold the piles a couple of times to operators that were going to process the bales into mulch and sell it on the market, just to have them back out after a few days trying to get the straw and twine separated so it can be run through a bagging machine. I'm glad I don't work there anymore and have to mess with it. The buildings that would cover the 50,000 tons of bales for them would cost $750,000 each and it would take 5 of them (10,000 tons each) Would have saved them the price of the buildings in less than 5 yrs. They have been paying $45.00/ton at the scale for the straw.


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## Dan.hasbargen (Mar 11, 2010)

I'd like to give all who posted on this string a big Thanks. The info is very helpful to me to get a better understanding of the real problems that come up in the Biomass collection process. Thanks again and I hope it was interesting reading for all who checked in on the posts.


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