# Protein content of OG hay



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I when out in my cow pasture (cows hadn't been turned out on yet) and collected some grass, mainly orchard grass (if not all OG), it self-seeds here. I split this collection into two samples.

One sample I took in right away (higher moisture sample naturally). The remainder I put on a piece of plywood in my shed. After a week or so (I turned it every day or so), I took it in the house and put it on the end of the wife's kitchen table (not whole table just the end I don't use) for a couple of days. Seems drying conditions were not the best in my shed, with the dampness and high humidity we were having.

Once it felt like it was dry enough to bale, I took another sample in for testing. Attached are the results, which I am going to share with my horse customers, this year. Who feel my hay is 'too rich or high protein' for their critters. Yet this is exactly what their critters are grazing on right now in MY area.

As I try to educate some, I know that I have to be ready to also except defeat. After all it seems I have (albeit slowly) learned that sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

Test results attached.

Larry

PS: this grass had not even begun to start heading out as an FYI.


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

r82230 said:


> I when out in my cow pasture (cows hadn't been turned out on yet) and collected some grass, mainly orchard grass (if not all OG), it self-seeds here. I split this collection into two samples.
> 
> One sample I took in right away (higher moisture sample naturally). The remainder I put on a piece of plywood in my shed. After a week or so (I turned it every day or so), I took it in the house and put it on the end of the wife's kitchen table (not whole table just the end I don't use) for a couple of days. Seems drying conditions were not the best in my shed, with the dampness and high humidity we were having.
> 
> ...


Larry,

Those tests result are impressive. I think protein content is what a livestock feeder should be looking at. The higher the protein content, less additional grain based feeds are needed. Orchard grass with that kind of protein level is better than some alfalfa I have grown and a whole lot less expensive. Your sales pitch is protein content. Maybe you should tell perspective customers that they can't afford your hay. They will want it even more.

You hit a home run, congrats.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

ozarkian said:


> You hit a home run, congrats.


The only problem is the with the quantity, I gathered this small sample by hand in a brown grocery bag, pretending that I was a hoofed animal, taking a bite here and there. So all I have left (after sending in feed samples) is two gallon ziplock bags.

Larry


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

I am not sure what you are trying to educate livestock folks on with this? As a cattle farmer- this is just fine for cattle. As an equine owner - the protein is impressive, however NDF is high- and your calcium/phosphorus ratios are a tad bit out of line as well And your copper is high.

No NSC - so that would be interesting to see on the equine side.

Thanks for sharing!


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

What I find funny in my area is all the stuff a person want in a bale, all the stuff they dont want. The condition of the hay, time it was cut, how the hay was stored etc, etc. They are so picky with thehay they buy. Than I deliver the hay to their place and find out their horses have been living off thistles and buck brush all summer


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Everyone gets educated at different rates. I never knew time of day was important to harvesting hay- but it is, for horses anyways.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

r82230 said:


> I when out in my cow pasture (cows hadn't been turned out on yet) and collected some grass, mainly orchard grass (if not all OG), it self-seeds here. I split this collection into two samples.
> 
> One sample I took in right away (higher moisture sample naturally). The remainder I put on a piece of plywood in my shed. After a week or so (I turned it every day or so), I took it in the house and put it on the end of the wife's kitchen table (not whole table just the end I don't use) for a couple of days. Seems drying conditions were not the best in my shed, with the dampness and high humidity we were having.
> 
> ...


IMHO - for an easy keeper horse, the protein is high - if I'm reading the 19-23ish number correctly. I'm of the opinion that 10% CP is very good horse hay. Some recommend it down as much as 8% CP. I'm sure someone will correct me, but to much protein and the horse just passes it out in the urine. I can't comment on the other numbers as I'm just having a quick glance at this posting.

If it were my OG for my horse customers, I'd be shooting for 9-12ish CP.

YMMV

Good luck,
Bill


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

muffntuf said:


> Everyone gets educated at different rates. I never knew time of day was important to harvesting hay- but it is, for horses anyways.


It's due to continuing plant respiration and its related lowering of quality of the hay. An clip:

Dry matter losses and quality changes occur while the crop is wilting or drying in the field. These include plant respiration, rain, and machine induced losses. Plant respiration is a natural process that continues after the plant is cut. Respiration converts carbohydrates stored in the plant tissue to carbon dioxide, heat, and moisture that leave the plant causing a DM loss. Plant respiration ceases when the crop dries to a moisture level below 40%, so rapid drying early in the field curing process can reduce this loss (Rotz and Muck, 1994). Since this loss is primarily readily digestible carbohydrates, the loss increases the fiber content and reduces the energy content of the forage. With rapid drying, this loss is less than 5%, but it can be excessive when drying conditions are poor.

The whole link is worth a read or reread. Posted by HayWilson.

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/36833-curing-hay-by-dr-al-rotz-a-copy-and-paste/

Cutting too late in the day doesn't get dry enough to stop the respiration til sometime the next day...all the while, it's losing carbohydrates..


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

NO actually I am referring to sugar content in the hay- NSC is highest from about 9 am to 9pm with 1-4 pm being the highest - and that is when you don't want to harvest the hay.

The protein is not too much. If that is the only food source for the horse- then that's fine. But a ration balancer would be needed to balance everything out. And since copper is very high - it would have to be formulated to not have any copper in it.

I do equine nutrition balancing.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

muffntuf said:


> I do equine nutrition balancing.


What I was trying to emulate is this is the feed that the critter would be eating when out to pasture. In my area, IDK of a horse person that tests their pasture's feed quality and balances the nutrition accordingly in MY area. If you are doing this in your area great, too bad there isn't more information published on the subject.

As far as sugar, should horse owners only pasture their animals during certain times of the day?

I guess I didn't explain my little test well enough. What I am trying to educate my horse hay customers on is here is what MY cow pasture tests out as and I think it could be similar to what your horses are grazing on. To your point of needing more copper, I don't think the folks in my area would know because they have never sampled the feed from their pasture.

Here in my area of Michigan, we are known to be below in selenium. Once again IDK if this trace element is important to horses, but I know it is to cattle and I supplement according.

Mark, nice post, I miss HayWilson's wisdom. It helped explain the differences in the wet verses dry samples of the same batch.

Larry


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Yes actually = NSC is lowest during the night - so unless the horse is in heavy competition- horses should be grazing over night and not during the day. Less IR, EMS, Cushings, diabetes issues, less laminitic issues, less colic issues, etc.

Grass carries and stores sugar mostly during the day, at night it levels off to decent levels for grazing.

We recommend grazing muzzles for at risk horses too.

I can build a balanced feed program around a hay analysis - but need to include a few more items in the analysis that what you posted.

Hey I am all for hay growers testing their hay - it helps the equine community make educated purchases and helps them figure out their feed needs - balancer or regular feed.

Equine look at protein, ADF, NDF, NSC, Calcium/Phosphorus ratio, copper, selenium, iron and a few more.

It also helps the hay grower figure out what they are missing in their soil.

Thanks!


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Well I sure hope horsey people stay uneducated because if I get some buyer not wanting my hay because I cut between 1-4pm I might not be held liable for what I will tell them.


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## ozarkian (Dec 11, 2010)

muffntuf said:


> Yes actually = NSC is lowest during the night - so unless the horse is in heavy competition- horses should be grazing over night and not during the day. Less IR, EMS, Cushings, diabetes issues, less laminitic issues, less colic issues, etc.
> 
> Grass carries and stores sugar mostly during the day, at night it levels off to decent levels for grazing.
> 
> ...


I really appreciate this information. If I could apply all this science to an already difficult task, I would have to charge a whole lot more per bale than I currently get. Dry hay should only be part of an animals diet.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Dry hay should only be part of an animals diet? Not sure what you mean? Dry hay can have high levels of NSC if harvested during the hours of 8/9 am to 8/9 pm- and yes I know what you are thinking already- that's when I cut hay, because that is when I cut hay. Yeah I know. Since right now, I am mostly a consumer of hay- my hay guy tries to cut hay for me before 9 am and after 7 pm. My farm consumes about 3000 50 lb squares a year and about 30-35 900 lb rounds.

Let me tell you about my area- we have heavy dew most mornings and evenings. We are wet most of the time. It's seldom we see days in a row to get everything down at once and bale at once- its done most likely in shifts.

My hay guy does his very best and until I am up and running in the hay fields- he does his best. I pay for the hay analysis and share it with him- that way his other equine consumers have an idea of what is in the hay.

I do have a barn that has high maintenance- I know that. But it is far less expensive to know the ins and outs of the hay- so that my vet bills stay low. When you spend $10k in vet bills- you do what you can to decrease that.

So I am educated in equine nutrition, conditioning and rehabilitation.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

That's a heck of a nice hay guy. I hope you pay him well for cutting at those hours. Those hours he cuts are the times here that if you cut to much things will wear out faster and break. If a person has a sickle machine I'm not sure how one could cut at all before 9 and after 7. As it is im not sure how one could cut much at all when limited to those hours.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Yes I do pay a premium for the hay. 

Not sure why you think those hours break down or will wear out faster? Enlighten me, I am all for learning more.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Teslan said:


> That's a heck of a nice hay guy. I hope you pay him well for cutting at those hours. Those hours he cuts are the times here that if you cut to much things will wear out faster and break. If a person has a sickle machine I'm not sure how one could cut at all before 9 and after 7. As it is im not sure how one could cut much at all when limited to those hours.


Perhaps it's 5 o'clock somewhere? 

I hope I don't have to check for sugar content (seems it would also effect my cows), no more grazing allowed between 9-7, IDK how I am going to police that while I am work.

I a learning something new, again.

Larry


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

muffntuf said:


> Dry hay should only be part of an animals diet? Not sure what you mean? Dry hay can have high levels of NSC if harvested during the hours of 8/9 am to 8/9 pm- and yes I know what you are thinking already- that's when I cut hay, because that is when I cut hay. Yeah I know. Since right now, I am mostly a consumer of hay- my hay guy tries to cut hay for me before 9 am and after 7 pm. My farm consumes about 3000 50 lb squares a year and about 30-35 900 lb rounds.
> 
> Let me tell you about my area- we have heavy dew most mornings and evenings. We are wet most of the time. It's seldom we see days in a row to get everything down at once and bale at once- its done most likely in shifts.
> 
> ...


I have a number of questions:

First, you said that you are in a high dew area and mow before 9 AM and after 7 PM---for me (I'm also is a high dew area), that means I'd be mowing wet hay, which in turn, means the bottom will take a long time to dry. Also, that means I'd be causing more equipment problems (wet is harder to mow, has to be tedded.) So, if you could get more info, I certainly would appreciate it.

Second, How many horses and what kind of activities? I have 15 head that all but two get substantial use. Personally, I found 9-11% CP grass hay works best---keeps the mouths busy and out of trouble.

Third, $10K for vet bills? Except for a couple of freaky things, I seldom run over $2K. Are these your horses? Or others? Performance horses? Dressage? Cutting? Youngsters or Sr. citizens? Any more info?

Thanks for the info,

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

muffntuf said:


> Yes I do pay a premium for the hay.
> 
> Not sure why you think those hours break down or will wear out faster? Enlighten me, I am all for learning more.


to cut when the hay is wet, which it will be before 9 and after 7, means water has a better chance to get into bearings, joints and such. The hay is tougher also. So that's harder on blades, sickle sections as they won't cut as easily. When there is moisture hay doesn't move across medal very well either. So there is a much larger chance of plugging up a mower, which is hard in hydraulic pumps, belts, bearings, universals. Also the cut of the hay can tend to be more ragged if moist. Which can prohibit regrowth. Also as Ralph said above water will be trapped in the windrow. Which will cause it not to dry as fast. This is my experienced and I'm quite sure we have very little dew compared to east of here.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Teslan said:


> to cut when the hay is wet, which it will be before 9 and after 7,


I am a fan of HayWilson and he would point out that cutting after 7 would most likely really slow down the curing of hay. The first moisture that is evaporated via the pores of the leaves during the first 4-5 hours of exposure to SUNSHINE. Seems after 7 cutting would almost be a 'wasted' day (unless it was rainy, which puts you back to Tes and Ralph's concerns with cutting wet).

I guess my critters would prefer un-washed hay if it all possible.

Larry

Here is tid bit from HayWilson's past postings:

*Moisture goes out of the crop through the breathing holes in the leaves at a great rate. In fact the effect of conditioning is insignificant compared to the effect of the breathing holes in the leaves, on the moisture loss.

But those breath holes close when not in direct sunshine, and do not reopen the following morning, for a mown hay crop.

HERE if I have 5 hours of good sunshine the hay will dry down to <48% moisture almost eliminating any respiration over night. That respiration burns up carbohydrates reducing feed value as well as yield.

Another universal truth:
The true test for hay quality is animal acceptance and performance.

The animals go by touch, taste, & smell and never see the color green. The buyer only will see the color.*


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Wow - you guys are not kind at all- are you?

Yes - $10k in vet bills. Although I have only had 2 years like that in the last 11. But I have had them. YEs performance horses. Generally the 50 head I have run around $3k a year for maintenance. But when you hit those big numbers - you start asking why and what can I do to prevent it.

Second- yes we are in a high dew area. Yes we try to cut before a certain time. Yes it takes sometimes a day extra to rake and dry. That's fine with me.

CP hay at 9% protein - if you have pasture ornaments, I have no issues with that. Mine aren't pasture ornaments. But even a pasture ornament 9% protein hay- isn't balanced at that. There is a difference between 'busy' hay and solid quality hay that keeps the feed bill down. Forage first.

It's fine folks- *you can all give me heat*. It's a paradigm shift for people who have harvested hay the same way for years to think out side the box. I get it. But people are starting to have more concern with how things are done for horses, how their hay stacks up and how to balance it out when it isn't great.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

By the way - point of contention - NSC WHY do you think every single major horse feed now has low carbohydrate/starch and low sugar feeds? Think about that for a second.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Fifty head, then can I assume that there is no grazing in your case?

What I originally posted is what a pasture would have in MY area. With no grazing, then I can understand your situation where you are controlling everything the animal is consuming. In the dairy industry, they do the same called TMR (total mixed ration), a lot of dairy herds do not graze in MY area either. I don't think you are wrong in what you are doing, as much as I think you might be in the minority in MY area as far as feeding horses. (Not minority as far as horse feeding knowledge, you are miles above the horse folk's knowledge in MY area is what I am trying to convey).

I know of folks feeding maybe 6% protein hay, then trying to make up the shortage with grain. My thought is why not use better forage and reduce or skip the grain. My thinking is horses evolved eating forages and not so much grain, but wouldn't be the first time I was wrong (just ask my better half). 

Larry


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

One can try and put up the hay in the most perfect way to have the best nutrients by cutting at the right times and what have you but what trumps all is weather. Cut at the "right" time then have to wait another day to dry and get 4 days of rain all that science goes to waste and the most uneducated horse owners won't want it. It's easy if you are doing 20 acres every cutting. But when you do 300 like I do and I'm small to many on here it would be hard to accomplish anything if just doing it for the best nutrients. Like for example right now is the time for me to cut my grass hay for the best quality. Very few stems. Leafy. I could probably get $85 a bale or more (3x3s) easily and that's high right now. Except two things. One tonight it's supposed to start raining and rain for two days followed by cool temps. Two. I would get half the production. So I won't cut and get it rained on for sure and be worth maybe $45/bale at half the production. Or I will wait a week or so to cut. Get double the production. More stems. Lower CP, but still in premium range. And get $75/bale. Weather always trumps haying for best nutrients.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Larry- yes I agree. Forage should be first, but a lot of old timers think its all hogwash. New owners aren't orientated enough yet to figure things out and when they run into their first case of colic or laminitis- that's when they learn all about how to feed a horse correctly. Forage first. Buy the best you can buy -with good nutrition and low NSC and build from there.

50 head- unfortunately I can't forage all of them, no. About half are pastured, but not for a whole day - just about 6 hours and yes I do take care to watch what time they are out. It's a lot of work, but I have a happier, healthier barn for it.

AND yes weather trumps on hay harvesting. I get that- shoot I have done hay in southern MN, up by the Canadian border, Kansas, Northern OK and now in the middle of MN. This by far is the trickiest where I am at now. I have seen everyone do harvesting in shifts. And sometimes that prime hay becomes a bit less prime because its done that way.

My hay guy is putting in 7 acres Teff hay for me- do I have a good hay guy - YES!!! But then again he's seen two of my mares have issues with his clover/orchard grass hay. When I asked when it was cut- around 1pm. When we got the hay analysis back - the sugar was super high. He was surprised it was that high. He replaced that whole shipment of hay for me.

I LOVE MY HAY GUY- and I treat him well. When I can get myself going I will still have to use him until I get my hay fields established.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

muffntuf said:


> Larry- yes I agree. Forage should be first, but a lot of old timers think its all hogwash. New owners aren't orientated enough yet to figure things out and when they run into their first case of colic or laminitis- that's when they learn all about how to feed a horse correctly. Forage first. Buy the best you can buy -with good nutrition and low NSC and build from there.
> 
> 50 head- unfortunately I can't forage all of them, no. About half are pastured, but not for a whole day - just about 6 hours and yes I do take care to watch what time they are out. It's a lot of work, but I have a happier, healthier barn for it.
> 
> ...


 I think you should forget doing your own hay and just stick with your hay guy. He is overly generous. I did Teff last year. People loved it. They wanted me to have it this year. I won't. Because Teff is annoying and they won't pay for it so I make as much as on orchard/brome.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

r82230 said:


> I am a fan of HayWilson and he would point out that cutting after 7 would most likely really slow down the curing of hay. The first moisture that is evaporated via the pores of the leaves during the first 4-5 hours of exposure to SUNSHINE. Seems after 7 cutting would almost be a 'wasted' day (unless it was rainy, which puts you back to Tes and Ralph's concerns with cutting wet).
> 
> I guess my critters would prefer un-washed hay if it all possible.
> 
> ...


Hay Wilson was absolutely correct that cutting in the afternoon speeds up drying. Over the last two seasons I've taken that to heart. Between 11-4 here results in a day or more less drying time.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

muffntuf said:


> Wow - you guys are not kind at all- are you?
> 
> Yes - $10k in vet bills. Although I have only had 2 years like that in the last 11. But I have had them. YEs performance horses. Generally the 50 head I have run around $3k a year for maintenance. But when you hit those big numbers - you start asking why and what can I do to prevent it.
> 
> ...


First, I apologize if you are thinking I'm being unkind or giving you heat.

$10K over 50 head averages $200/head -- pretty good! I'm guessing you're including teeth, vaccinations, beaning, worming and other routine vet expenses in the $10K. One problem can easily run $2-3K.

What kind of performance horses? Do you board other people's horses?

According to your earlier post, you're feeding 3K 50 lb sm. squares and 35 900 lb round bales--that, if I've done my math correctly, works out to about 181,000 lbs. 181,000/50 head = 3700 lbs/head/year or 10 lbs/day/head. Does that sound right to you? 10 lbs of forage/head/day sounds light to me. Do you supplement with grain?

Also, I've tried teff here--good grower, makes great feed, but I just couldn't get it dry here. Seems that teff re-absorbs a lot moisture overnight. You might have the same problem with the heavy dews.

For those interested, I got this from the USDA, grass hay CP guidelines:

Table 2: Grass Hay guidelines

Quality Crude Protein Percent
Premium Over 13
Good 9-13
Fair 5-9
Utility Under 5

Quantitative factors are approximate, and many factors can affect
feeding value. Values based on 100% dry matter. End usage may influence
hay price or value more than testing results.

Ralph


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

In order to understand the NSC of your hay - you have to test it. Each field can be different within itself - having several different NSC levels per field. NSC is effected by maturity, time of day, type of plant, time spent curing in the field, and weather when harvested. There is no easy answer to this. But for horse owners you try to get the best cut and cure you can.

Legumes are different than grass. Tender young vs very mature. Time of day- middle of the day is highest. Moisture. Length of time curing in the field. Whether it gets one rain on it.

This all effects NSC.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

To address Hay Master. Yes 10 lbs per head is about right. Yes I do feed either a balancer or pelleted grain. Depends on what the horse is doing at the moment. Half the herd is grazing part of their day right now. Seems to low- sure it is 250 kg horse.  I have invested a lot in my herd- and yes I have learned a lot in the last 11 years. I have been around horses since oh gosh since I was 7. Almost 45 years now.

The vet bills that were highest- PHF last year on my top mare ($8k for ICU stay- she was out showing in IA and contracted the illness from the arena she was at- they had mayflies). Took a lot of tender loving care to get her back into health. Previous year- a couple laminitis attacks- because of high NSC in hay. Which took a couple years to figure out what field of my hay guys it was. We don't get hay from that field anymore - it has too much clover in it and he was harvesting at around 1pm. So we have a rule of less than 10% clover in the hay bales now.

Some of my clients have used teff hay and they had really good luck with it last year. We have two guys who are trying to grow it for equine owners. It's spendy since you have to re-seed every year. But I have 3 mares that in January-March - we have to watch how much NSC they get. We try to keep it below 14% now those months. So he is willing to do that field and try it out. He's learned a lot from me. He's helped me get a mare up off the ground when he's delivered hay- from a laminitic attack so he has started asking and listening to me.

I wish I could always buy hay - but I am trying to set myself up to do my own hay- beside vet bill - it is the second highest bill of the farm. Okay - shavings is up there too. lol


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

muffntuf said:


> To address Hay Master. Yes 10 lbs per head is about right. Yes I do feed either a balancer or pelleted grain. Depends on what the horse is doing at the moment. Half the herd is grazing part of their day right now. Seems to low- sure it is 250 kg horse.  I have invested a lot in my herd- and yes I have learned a lot in the last 11 years. I have been around horses since oh gosh since I was 7. Almost 45 years now.
> 
> The vet bills that were highest- PHF last year on my top mare ($8k for ICU stay- she was out showing in IA and contracted the illness from the arena she was at- they had mayflies). Took a lot of tender loving care to get her back into health. Previous year- a couple laminitis attacks- because of high NSC in hay. Which took a couple years to figure out what field of my hay guys it was. We don't get hay from that field anymore - it has too much clover in it and he was harvesting at around 1pm. So we have a rule of less than 10% clover in the hay bales now.
> 
> ...


I started in hay because I was buying so much at the time and had ground available. I sold about 1/3rd of my hay to horse owners, fed the poorer stuff to my cattle and fed the good stuff to my horses. I sold the last of my cattle this winter.

Due to market conditions in this area, I sold almost no horse hay this winter. Now, the economics has turned around and I am seriously considering dropping the hay portion. It's a lot of work and heavy expense.

10 lbs forage/day is about right for a 5-600 lb horse. These are pretty small critters. Are they ponies? What breed?

I'm still trying to understand what you're doing with your horses and what type of performance, training program, etc., that you're using. More specific info would really be helpful.

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Actually Teff is a bit cheaper to grow then orchard grass or about the same. The seed isn't that expensive and it takes less fertilizer then orchard. The thing is getting a good stand and having to spray for weeds. But that is still cheaper then orchard grass fertilizer. That said I get as much hay in first cutting then nearly 4 cuttings of Teff. And I can't charge more for Teff then orchard or no one would buy it. But the critters sure love it. Buyers don't like it as much as it's a bit harder to feed.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Teslan- that is interesting - they were $1.00-$1.50 more a bale here than orchard grass mix.

The stands are crazy most definitely. I am willing to try it. The few folks I have talked to with NSC sensitive horses have said their horses palate wise was okay but the NSC levels stayed better for the horses and they didn't have any down time with them.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

muffntuf said:


> Teslan- that is interesting - they were $1.00-$1.50 more a bale here than orchard grass mix.
> 
> The stands are crazy most definitely. I am willing to try it. The few folks I have talked to with NSC sensitive horses have said their horses palate wise was okay but the NSC levels stayed better for the horses and they didn't have any down time with them.


People probably are more knowledgable about Teff there. I sold a lot to Wyoming and South Dakota last year, but in Colorado not many have heard of it. Lots of calls from Wyoming in fact, but most thought I was way to high in price. And it's hard to get people to try it you can't have it priced more. I might grow some again next year, but on a smaller scale so maybe I can sell it for a bit more.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

muffntuf said:


> NO actually I am referring to sugar content in the hay- NSC is highest from about 9 am to 9pm with 1-4 pm being the highest - and that is when you don't want to harvest the hay.
> 
> The protein is not too much. If that is the only food source for the horse- then that's fine. But a ration balancer would be needed to balance everything out. And since copper is very high - it would have to be formulated to not have any copper in it.
> 
> I do equine nutrition balancing.


I understand and misread your earlier post below



muffntuf said:


> Everyone gets educated at different rates. I never knew time of day was important to harvesting hay- but it is, for horses anyways.


I took it to mean that you didn't agree that time of day for harvesting didn't have anything to do with quality....but that some horse customers THOUGHT it did. I was just offering one example of time-of-day making a difference.

I reckon my reading/comprehension could use a little honing. I might oughtta do a little less broadcasting and a little more tuning-in, Sorry...didn't aim to be mean or disrespectful.

Skip A Rope, Mark


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

No worries. I meant horse owners get educated at different rates. I teach nutritional classes too- some people graze, so to speak - get the basics. Then there are the sponges that absorb everything you say and can almost repeat it back verbatim to you when they ask questions.

At least everyone is learning.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I anxiously await your haymaking results, good luck....it could get interesting


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

muffntuf said:


> 50 head- unfortunately I can't forage all of them, no. About half are pastured, but not for a whole day - just about 6 hours and yes I do take care to watch what time they are out. It's a lot of work, but I have a happier, healthier barn for it.


I have to give you credit, you put in some long days, with a six hour grazing window either before and/or after the 9am - 7pm time block. That is if this dummy understands what you are saying about the sugar content levels anyhow. The horse folks in MY area have a long way to go, learning this stuff for certain, they usually put their horses out in the morning and bring them in at nighttime. Maybe they will become more educated and change in the future. I just hope they don't until I am retired from my day job, so I can cut my hay to their schedule.

Larry


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

Teslan said:


> Well I sure hope horsey people stay uneducated because if I get some buyer not wanting my hay because I cut between 1-4pm I might not be held liable for what I will tell them.


The horsey people who become "semi-educated" as they've read it on the internet and think it pertains to their own situation just adds to the challenges of hay producers. I truly hope this 'time of day' cutting doesn't become popular until "no mold" becomes obsolete.



muffntuf said:


> Dry hay should only be part of an animals diet? Not sure what you mean? Dry hay can have high levels of NSC if harvested during the hours of 8/9 am to 8/9 pm- and yes I know what you are thinking already- that's when I cut hay, because that is when I cut hay. Yeah I know. Since right now, I am mostly a consumer of hay- my hay guy tries to cut hay for me before 9 am and after 7 pm. My farm consumes about 3000 50 lb squares a year and about 30-35 900 lb rounds.
> 
> Let me tell you about my area- we have heavy dew most mornings and evenings. We are wet most of the time. It's seldom we see days in a row to get everything down at once and bale at once- its done most likely in shifts.
> 
> ...


Is your hay guy a Hay Talk member? I would really like to hear how this works. Is this all the hay he produces? How does he get the hay cured? How many days to cut/cure/bale? What percentage of the hay he cuts does he get up this way? What premium does this hay bring - 25%, 50% 300% ? Do you accept "his best" anyway or does he have to sell it at a lower price if it should become damaged?



muffntuf said:


> Wow - you guys are not kind at all- are you?
> 
> Yes - $10k in vet bills. Although I have only had 2 years like that in the last 11. But I have had them. YEs performance horses. Generally the 50 head I have run around $3k a year for maintenance. But when you hit those big numbers - you start asking why and what can I do to prevent it.
> 
> ...


Most of the people on here have been dealing with the frustrations of horsey people and the weather 

Very few horse owners consider "their" horses 'pasture ornaments'. They read or hear about what horses 'require' and want it for their own, at below market price, and have no clue whatsoever how hay is produced.



muffntuf said:


> Larry- yes I agree. Forage should be first, but a lot of old timers think its all hogwash. New owners aren't orientated enough yet to figure things out and when they run into their first case of colic or laminitis- that's when they learn all about how to feed a horse correctly. Forage first. Buy the best you can buy -with good nutrition and low NSC and build from there.
> 
> 50 head- unfortunately I can't forage all of them, no. About half are pastured, but not for a whole day - just about 6 hours and yes I do take care to watch what time they are out. It's a lot of work, but I have a happier, healthier barn for it.
> 
> ...


Finally, my main concern and not being unkind but seriously wanting to know how you've gotten hay put up the way being discussed here.

Shelia


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Sheila - wow, again, wow. Mold is not an obsolete issue with horses. And let me throw this out also - neither is ash (dirt and dust in the hay).

Hay takes time as all hay producers will tell you - and yes putting up decent horse hay - is a challenge.

Horse people are a challenge- I never said they weren't. Ill informed or barely informed or taking some pickings from education is challenging to work with.

Yes I like my hay guy. He does his utmost best to put up enough squares for me. I do understand the challenges of putting up hay - I have put up some hay in this area myself. And I am setting up to do it again.

We put up hay in shifts mostly. This year will be a shift year. Only part of a field will go down at a time.

He has other customers too- cattle and horse folks. I am not the only one who is an equine hay consumer that has the same concerns. The cattle folks around here- they like their hay put up a certain way too - to get the best possible nutrition. I have sat in with several beef and dairy farmers and we've talked about the differences. Because horses have such a funky digestive tract- yes its different than cows. But their concerns are gains in milk production and beef on the hoof. When sharing information - they did not realize that waiting until the hay is completely mature actually hurts their productivity in the long run - some have started to switch how they hay so they try to come in before the hay matures now. But again, for different reasons.

SO you all don't like what I explain is going on in the world of hay- that's fine. I am not here to hurt anyone's crop expectations. I had hoped to just pass on information on what research in the equine world is doing and how some folks are changing their practices. Gosh I can see now how educators got into hot water teaching farmers better farming practices for higher yields in corn, wheat, etc. Same thing - change a paradigm shift takes work.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Whew that was a lot of reading. I can't believe I missed this post!

It's no secret that I draw the ire of horsey people. Horses have been bred and wussified. Give me a ranch horse over a performance horse anyday. High maintenance hurts the bottom line. So extra dry hay is necessary for horses. A 4-5 day window for hay is a luxury, asking for 6-8 days is preposterous and a waste of valuable forage. If you're concerned about content, buy straw!

I posted in sugar content last night, so wished I saw this post. Now I'm off to make some high protein hay.


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

muffntuf said:


> Sheila - wow, again, wow. Mold is not an obsolete issue with horses. And let me throw this out also - neither is ash (dirt and dust in the hay).
> 
> Hay takes time as all hay producers will tell you - and yes putting up decent horse hay - is a challenge.
> 
> ...


Mold, dust, ash are definite concerns! Good green color for most buyers as well. Getting the hay perfect is where the challenge is.

I'm concerned with the "how" to achieve the kind of hay equine and other livestock owners want. So can those of us in Kentucky (and areas with the same climate) not produce suitable hay? What is the schedule we should use? Until Hay Talk I thought everybody baled hay in the day time and had to stop with the evening dew; had no idea it worked the other way too.

Specifics for the past getting the hay mowed? Mowing is possible with the dew but how to get the hay cured without losing the desired green color?

I think most hay producers want to put up the hay their customers want. The problem is having somewhat unrealistic expectations from hay purchasers as to what hay producers can provide. You're in a good position to help all of us. You have the knowledge of nutrition and are willing to be part of education. Should be a "win-win" situation.

And all of this from Larry taking the time to get the analysis for orchard grass in the pasture. 

Shelia


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I'm just curious what dairyman didn't try to cut their orchard at flag and alfalfa at bud? Been the norm all my 40 years.
I'm starting to get the cut of your jib.

I can see how it could be done. Cutting to a overly picky schedule. There are other ways to achieve your low sugar requirements and I'm sure that you know them a d don't approve. Lol.

Meanwhile, I'll stay in the Stone age and just try to get it in the barn without getting rained on.
FYI I cut in the morning before heading to work or after. Prefer before as it dries better.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

RockyHill said:


> Mold, dust, ash are definite concerns! Good green color for most buyers as well. Getting the hay perfect is where the challenge is.
> 
> I'm concerned with the "how" to achieve the kind of hay equine and other livestock owners want. So can those of us in Kentucky (and areas with the same climate) not produce suitable hay? What is the schedule we should use? Until Hay Talk I thought everybody baled hay in the day time and had to stop with the evening dew; had no idea it worked the other way too.
> 
> Shelia


LOL. Before haytalk I didn't realize people could bale alfalfa in the day or afternoon and not end up with dust and stems. I also knew nothing about tedders before haytalk. Now I have one of the things and hate it (brand related not the idea) Thanks haytalk for making me waste money.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I thought maybe my pasture tests were a 'little' crazy, so with some more searching I came across this piece. Seems UofWV puts out a far amount of stuff that even HayWilson point me (and others) to in the past. Any way just flip to page 12, to get an idea of a lot of pasture samples in West Virginia came back as (both the variance in CP and NSC).

For those who want the 'Cliff notes':

Samples Mean Std D Min Max 
CP 566 18.40 4.80 4.80 34.60

NSC 398 15.86 5.42 0.23 37.10

Makes me realize that just maybe my samples were not that far out of line and I believe a lot of horse folks don't realize what their animal's diet even begins to have in it.

Larry


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

I cut mid morning 
I only do orchard
I will find my results from last yr
Don't know shit about a horse
Ain't no takers allowed on my farm


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

I have no clue what's good bad 
Horse folks line up and buy all I can make 
5-7000 bales a yr

It's all sold before it grows

$9 a bale except my best Custer gets it at $8.50

2nd cut










1st cut


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

14% NSC - that's great! Protein is great! NDF is a little high, but 65% is the cut off so its right there. Your calcium/phosphorus ratio is a little out of whack, the equine owner would have to make sure they use a feed or ration balancer that would correct that a little bit. The ash is okay, I wonder what rake you are using, but its not horrible.

So basically if fed in the right amount this hay could be fed with just a ration balancer, the right ration balancer- so no added NSC in feeds.


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

I just changed rakes

I was using old new Holland rake 256

Now I have a Kuhn
My hay is much nicer as well
Money well spent










Few pics of the product we market to the horse folks. No photoshop! Or editing


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I just read the entire thread start to finish. That was interesting. I am curious to know how my tiny field tests out. In my area I would be hesitant to fertilize... I would end up with OG taller than I am at 6'3" unfertilized first cutting is mid thigh as it is some spots waist high! We have very fertile soil and our ground retains moisture very well. This will be my second season haying so I literally know almost the basics.

It's interesting for me to learn the high end of haying but at this point in time as mentioned by a couple others.... I'm just trying to make dry hay that horses will eat. All I know is that last winter our horses ate round bales off our tiny hay field and they were fat and happy all winter. As to how much protein and sugar and what not they consumed I have no idea... I'm not so sure they care either. Our horses are trail riding buddies so they don't need top end performance. When we put hay out they come running. I'd say that's a good sign.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Just to eliminate confusion, I'm not sure this would be classified as the "high end" of haying.....


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I think what muffntuf's hay guy does is high end hay.... IMO and that was what I was referring to. Cutting at a specific time of day regarding to sugar content and doing types of analysis etc etc.... Is high end hay in my humble opinion.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

The only thing with just feeding trail riding horses - which aren't used a lot - is, is that the NSC could be very high and you don't know it. If they are fat- that is a good indication that maybe you should check it out. Too many horses coming up with IR, EMS, Cushings and a lot of laminitis because they only go on a trail ride occasionally and they are fed high NSC hay.

CMM - if that is your first cutting hay - that looks super nice, small stemmed hay cut at just about the right maturity.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

That is fine- its equine hay. A little more care in the harvesting of hay, that's all.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't disagree that something "could" happen. My vet bills other than maintenance or routine care are non existent. We've never had any serious issuses knock on wood. Personally I think people over think these issues. I don't disagree I am largely ignorant but as long as it's relatively clean and dry "it'll feed" IMO.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I think its going to be interesting when the reality of harvesting and growing hay smacks muffntuff square in the face. It might not be this year, next year or in the next 5 years, but someday it will happen. Better not kick that great hay guy to the curb when you start your own hay operation. You might need his hay still. Sorry I'm in a bad mood today as my almost ready for cutting hay is lying flat under 4 inches of snow and it's still snowing. I had more written that wasn't very nice, but decided to not post it.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Teslan I know you guys have snow - that just sucks. I do understand harvesting hay for the most part- I have been doing it since age 7. Cutting, TONS OF RAKING, Baling, storing. The only thing I am missing is the mechanics- I was just told which tractor to sit on, so I didn't get the equipment ready, that is my downfall.

I hope it warms up for you and dries out. We received about 4.5" of rain in the past 2.5 days- and are set for more tonight through tomorrow.

Haying isn't a piece of cake. I have a good relationship with all the hay guys I have had the last 11 years. I still talk to them. The one I had before this one- retired and rented out his hay fields to corn folks. That is how I ended up with this guy. This is our 5th year together and his hay has improved immensely since we first met. Not quite sainthood- but pretty close. He sure tries to make sure I get what I need.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

muffntuf said:


> Haying isn't a piece of cake. I have a good relationship with all the hay guys I have had the last 11 years. I still talk to them. The one I had before this one- retired and rented out his hay fields to corn folks. That is how I ended up with this guy. This is our 5th year together and his hay has improved immensely since we first met. Not quite sainthood- but pretty close. He sure tries to make sure I get what I need.


Now you have me a little confused, this is a post of your's on a different topic -

*I know uptake of hay into the baler has a lot to do with how big or little a flake is - I have not seen uniform flakes much in the haying world. So I have pondered - why not? How does one make uniform size and weight flakes in a small square?*

Here is my confusion, if you have been with your present hay supplier (he is cutting, raking and baling on your schedule) and you use 3,000 bales a year. That works out to around 15,000 bales of hay he (or she, gender neutral) has baled in the last five years. I would think he would know how to put out consistent uniform (as some call) idiot bricks.

Go ahead and hit me, if I missed something.

Larry


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Larry HAHAHAHAHA! I about spit my coffee across the room- good laugh!

I am not there when he bales. I don't know, I have asked. He says some parts of his hay fields are heavier than others- and according to you guys that makes sense.

I have run into some bales lately that you can tell the stand was very thick- its hard to pull apart and the flakes vary a lot in size. One can be 11-14lbs others can be 3 lbs. Makes feeding a bit harder because you have to feed everyone their allotment of hay.

Kevin the guy before- I could just throw a flake and not worry about it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Muff I am still curious to what breed of horses you have what what discipline you compete in.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I always thought haying was a piece of cake. It's like hiking for some people, it's a walk in the park for me.

Of course I'm of the old school nature of more protein and sugar/carbs packed in dry matter as possible. I'm in the business of packing on pounds not sleek slender Adkins Diet. I would seriously consider buying oat straw and supplement to your hearts desire. It is beyond simple reasoning to try adjusting the hay content and maintain a ration of supplement especially when it includes the key word 'supplement'. Supplement is for adding, not subtracting.

I've watched countless horses eat fescue, broomstraw, and assorted mix grasses on pasture for the owner to say, "My horse can't eat fescue." Then watch them slug pellets 2 times a day. As I said, buy oat straw and grind it (if stem thickness bothers you) and fill it in with the sought after sweet green hay desired by horse owners. On second note, breed animals to be tolerant of the available forages and ship all else down the road.


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

Horse owner friend of mine say by George on day three or four of not eating the hay in front of em the light will come on and they decide

I believe I like that!!!! Lol


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Well, the horse owners would have to find some other way to feel superior if they did what makes sense. Lol We have horse breeders, two racetracks, many boarding stables, dozens of Amish, and then the recreation horse owners. The working horse owners are really great customers. I test all mine anyway and offer them the information. Most don't care to know.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I just read the entire thread start to finish. That was interesting. I am curious to know how my tiny field tests out. In my area I would be hesitant to fertilize... I would end up with OG taller than I am at 6'3" unfertilized first cutting is mid thigh as it is some spots waist high! We have very fertile soil and our ground retains moisture very well. This will be my second season haying so I literally know almost the basics.


MDP, most folks fertilize after 1st cutting in MY area, for exactly your reason.

The need to fertilize/lime can be a long term situation. What I mean is you could skip fertilizing for years, before you almost completely 'mine' the soil of almost all it nutrients. With straight alfalfa, you can figure that for every ton of hay removed per acre, you have removed about 8-10# of Ph and 40-50# of P. Being you are growing OG, maybe someone will chime in on what OG removes per ton. What I try to do is maintain (after soil is built up) a respected nutrient level.

We have treads posted here on HT on testing levels (4-6" is what I do) and I no till, so I need time (and liquid sunshine helps) to disperse the nutrients down into my soil.

By fertilizing after 1st cutting, you will most likely enhance your 2nd (and possibly later) cuttings, getting more 'bang for the dollar', IMHO.

Larry


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

r82230 said:


> MDP, most folks fertilize after 1st cutting in MY area, for exactly your reason.
> 
> The need to fertilize/lime can be a long term situation. What I mean is you could skip fertilizing for years, before you almost completely 'mine' the soil of almost all it nutrients. With straight alfalfa, you can figure that for every ton of hay removed per acre, you have removed about 8-10# of Ph and 40-50# of P. Being you are growing OG, maybe someone will chime in on what OG removes per ton. What I try to do is maintain (after soil is built up) a respected nutrient level.
> 
> ...


The some of the University of Kentucky publications give something like 35-12-53 removal per ton. Our OG stand really showed improvement with replacing the K that was being taken off (that also reflected in reduced pocketbook at fertilize time  )

Shelia


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

I take soil samples from every field I have every yr

It's like 6 - 10 bucks a sample

Cheap information

Never understood the "hey how mulch you put down on that orchard grass "
And then go drop $40-60 an acre on fertilizer


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

My small field was alternated between corn and soy beans for 5-6 years before it was planted last year.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'd like to test the soil and grass but the info would be more for me personally. I do sell hay in small quantities but the people I sell to and I price I charge at this point doesn't demand I test. Who knows maybe my hay is amazing and I should charge more lol I can dream.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

MyDaughtersPony-not sure if you mean test the soil or test the hay. Soil should be tested and then lime, ash and fertilizer applied when necessary.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I meant both. It would really only serve my curiosity. I don't really have the funds to act on the results of the test anyways... Unless the situation was very severe.


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## muffntuf (May 1, 2017)

Having a hay analysis done gives you some clues about the soil. If I had to start somewhere- it would be a soil test.


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