# Steamers



## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Anyone using one? Any pitfalls with them as a machine and with the bales that it was used on?? Thinking Staheli west in particular.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Don't have one but I have been on the artificial dew bandwagon since about 1980 with no horse to pull it.

If you are into big bales, have reasonable ground and lots of (dry) hay, a large tractor and $200,000 sitting around then it makes sense.

It is recommended that you treat your water going into the boiler (stop minerals from plugging up the boiler). Bales treated with steam are hot and it is suggested that they are allowed to cool down before they are stacked. The higher the air temperature at baling the bigger the issue.

I am strictly two and three tie small squares and Staheli West just keeps promising that a smaller steamer is in the works. It will not change my trajectory however as the cost of these can not be supported by our farm.

If I do anything it will be ******* engineering.

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Was thinking of possibly importing a second hand one from the state's next year?????. As for baling conditions here. Lucerne hay in 8x4x3s air temps mid 30 Celsius to low 40s. Obviously bugger all humidity. So being hot and dry requires more steam?? How long do you need to leave them out? I usually like them off within 6 to 8 hours so I can start irrigating.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I have read that it is the next day for pick up. I would suggest you contact Stahli West directly after thoroughly going over their web site to confirm that and any other questions that might arise.

I would consider ..... What delay exists if you could not bale in the first place?

You obviously have that scenario due to your conditions such that baling sooner with steam means your fields could be cleared more quickly in spite of requiring a cool down of the bales.

Best regards

Three44s


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Crazy man! We fight like mad to get the stuff dry enough to bale and you folks need to add moisture to bale? I just cant imagine this being an issue but obviously it is with $200k steamers being availible.
Please explain why and how this becomes such a problem? I would think you could follow the mower with a rake and baler and get a nice 13% bale if it were that dry?
Its fascinating to read about conditions in other parts of this rock we live on.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Repeatedly raking Lucerne just knocks all the leaf off. So I only rake the night of the morning I bale. Raking here any earlier also has it's challenges with "wirly winds" I.e. like a tiny little tornado that goes up not comes down.The hot weather here drives them over summer and it's nothing to come back in the afternoon and find a trail of destruction across all the windrows. The other issue is the length of time that we have a dew. Fine in small paddocks but not good if your trying to bang out 60 acres. So thinking a steamer so I can start later when I know it's dry and not risk going to early. And can then go for longer and not have massive leaf loss. I like to get mine all done in one go so as to avoid bleaching as much as possible. Leaf retention is the key. People tend to buy on feed tests here unless it's a bad drought then they just take what they can get. So a premium product for marketing sells your hay quicker and justifies a higher price. Would love to be able to bang out consistent 13 or 14% bales. But as it is you start somewhere there, cop the odd spike and then by the time your finishing it can be down to as low as 8=9%.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

And no I can't justify a new one either especially since they're more like 300k au here. Hence why I'm looking over there. I see a few for sale for around 95k US . Just doing my homework before I jump in. Looking to possibly change enterprises in the future to a hay dominant one. For time and LABOR reasons small squares are out. If I can't get it baled in the window I've got with big squares what hope do I have with smalls? Also a bale Barron here would cost me the same money as an imported second hand steamer.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

skyrydr2 said:


> Crazy man! We fight like mad to get the stuff dry enough to bale and you folks need to add moisture to bale? I just cant imagine this being an issue but obviously it is with $200k steamers being availible.
> Please explain why and how this becomes such a problem? I would think you could follow the mower with a rake and baler and get a nice 13% bale if it were that dry?
> Its fascinating to read about conditions in other parts of this rock we live on.


They are mainly used for alfalfa.The leaves dry first and are very brittle when the stem gets dry and a lot are lost when baling.The steamer dampens the leaves mainly to keep leaf loss to a minimum.

It's the same principal as baling with a dew.Let it get dry and wait for a dew to come on so you don't loose the leaves.So instead of waiting for a dew they can just go bale with the steamer.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

With exceptions due to topography we in the western US have either periodic or chronic dew failures.

The windrows dry unevenly as to top to bottom and between stems vs. leaves. Remember that the leaves are where it's "at". When the leaves are gone all you have left are just sticks.

Our main hay fields are located on a bench about 200 feet above a valley and this valley leads to a basin that is a 1000 feet below our fields. Air expands all day long on warm days and contracts all night long as it cools. Also prevailing winds are from the west or northwest add to this air movement towards the lower area some 20 miles away. Bottom line: True dews are rare during haying season.

A Steamer not only gives a grower a tool to supplement or replace dew in the normal sense but it also adds hours to one's "baling window".

Every grower has a different set of circumstances and for some, a 200,000 dollar Steamer is a great investment. For others it is a non-starter. For many it is a grey area. A used machine @ $95,000 in the OP's example more could entertain such an investment.

A big deal that does not get much mention is that these machines use a boiler, a vessel under pressure and heat. The steamers are designed to run at or below 15 psi so the safety issues are less than for high pressure boilers but there are issues none the less.

It is incumbent on users of these machines to scrupolusely follow the protocols for safety and that includes preventing mineralization within it's water system.

A used machine that has not been properly maintained could become a mill stone around a new but unsuspecting owner. But a well maintained machine bought right would be a great advantage. There are a lot of regulations surrounding boiler safety and also who can work on one depending on what needs to be done with one.

Lots to research here.

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Our water is fine. Have tested the hardness of the channel water and it was less than 60ppm. The bore water was 380ppm before treating( we have a kinetico water conditioner in the dairy which after treating takes it down to around 20ppm although it doesn't remove salt and also uses salt brine to self clean. Biggest issue is as Three44s said the boiler and how it had been maintained. Am I right in saying that in the state's boilers need to be certified regularly? If so how often? And what do they check. Would a certification look at possible mineralization inside?? Also if I was looking at one seriously I wouldn't buy without seeing it first hand and if possible at least contact Staheli and see who could do an inspection to make sure it was working correctly and that all the bits and pieces were included.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

skyrydr2 said:


> Crazy man! We fight like mad to get the stuff dry enough to bale and you folks need to add moisture to bale? I just cant imagine this being an issue but obviously it is with $200k steamers being availible.
> Please explain why and how this becomes such a problem? I would think you could follow the mower with a rake and baler and get a nice 13% bale if it were that dry?
> Its fascinating to read about conditions in other parts of this rock we live on.


Not sure if this is a problem in the state's but here there is several haystack fires every year. With hay being baled when either not cured properly or with too high a moisture content. Another reason for the thinking of a steamer. Let the dew burn off then bale so every bale is the same consistency. Also sometimes we dont even get a dew, with overnight temps being as high as mid 20scelcius or the wind can be to much for a dew to set .I know of one within 100kms of me and possibly another 2 that I could check on re the length of time before stacking in Australian conditions.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

In the US we have both Federal and State regulations to contend with at many levels and worker safety is one of the most regulated amongst many other highly regulated activities.

I don't know what the inspection regime is but I do know from other acquaintances who are familiar with stationary boilers that mineralization within the boiler is real taboo.

I think you are real spot on in your thinking about making a trip over here to inspect any prospective Steamer machines yourself and having it as evaluated as much as practible by others. Stahli West being a top choice .... of course any sales pitches to sell you a new one would have to be taken with the proverbial grain of salt.

I would want to sure that the soft creek water is in fact soft enough without treatment. If it does need something it likely would not need much.

Best regards

Three44s


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

As soon as he said his main crop was lucerne then it all made sense. But that still is a huge expense! Could you get your investment back in a reasonable time? 
Call me cheap if you like, but I want a return on my investments right away and be making me money with in a 2 year window or sooner?


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Everything is an expense. Will be looking for a second hand large square baler this winter to take the contractor out of the equation. I will do a bit more research into what is an achievable premium . But at a guess I would say 15 to 20% above current prices. I'll be pushing out around 1100 bales of Lucerne a season. Not always all for sale depending on our requirements. My last cut with a nice dew pushed out at 627kg / bale. So if I could achieve densities like that consistently at a 20% premium would be an extra 30 000/ season. So probably a 4 to 5 year pay back ( a 95000 steamer is 135000 au)


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

Good luck to you. It is crazy to think about getting more moisture to our hay. Regional differences are interesting, I'd never get hay dry enough to bale without tedding it out twice and then we're still waiting for the dew to come off before we can bale.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Northeast PA hay and beef said:


> Good luck to you. It is crazy to think about getting more moisture to our hay. Regional differences are interesting, I'd never get hay dry enough to bale without tedding it out twice and then we're still waiting for the dew to come off before we can bale.


Well you have to walk in our shoes a mile .... and we would need to walk in yours the same. It is just as foreign to us how you folks in the east are the complete opposite with regards to weather conditions.

But it is a fact that I can go out way more pre-dawn mornings than not and have brittle dry hay in the windrow. When the weather is warm to hot we are cutting on ground that is wet from the side roll sprinklers as we dare to (short of cutting ruts in the field). As the windrow dries down the soil moisture moves closer to the surface where the windrow is situated. The evaporation of the recently irrigated soil softens the underside of the windrow to a degree. But that condition can and does get erased if the night breeze is too strong (and it often does). As the regrowth from the next cutting advances the windrow catches more of the escaping irrigation water since the now taller vexation is sealing the sides of the bottom of the windrow. A tent effect if you will.

The top of the windrow is still dry however.

Now the entire West is not like what I have just described above. There are many locales that get dew regularity and even areas that get it too aggressively. Member Jay In Wa can attest to that.

Three44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Hay diddle diddle said:


> Everything is an expense. Will be looking for a second hand large square baler this winter to take the contractor out of the equation. I will do a bit more research into what is an achievable premium . But at a guess I would say 15 to 20% above current prices. I'll be pushing out around 1100 bales of Lucerne a season. Not always all for sale depending on our requirements. My last cut with a nice dew pushed out at 627kg / bale. So if I could achieve densities like that consistently at a 20% premium would be an extra 30 000/ season. So probably a 4 to 5 year pay back ( a 95000 steamer is 135000 au)


Just a caution here:

I believe that you may want to be careful in assuming that all the added bale weight is saved hay in your equation.

Certainly some weight is saved leaves and that is "money in the bank", two ways. Higher quality and more tonnage. But a heavier bale can also come by way of packing a given amount of hay tighter (moistened hay packs better) and the weight of the water you are adding.

Not trying to rain on your parade as I am a big proponent of forwarding the craft of artificial dew and I feel for any grower struggling as I do .... ie. Fighting dry baling conditions.

As I read between the lines I see you are contemplating a second big baler. You might just be the quintessential prospect for a Steamer .....

While I am concerned about the cost of steamers in their present form and in your case the added cost of getting either a used machine or a new one to you in AU ...... a Steamer could well preclude needing another baler (and compatible tractor perhaps) and that is real money as well.

It is said that one big baler with a Steamer replaces two big balers without steam and in my conditions it would be more like three big balers. Add in operators and the savings really start mounting up.

Suddenly that 200k Steamer starts looking pretty good for the right grower.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

So I went to a little baler class at my local Massey dealer. They have started to sell the Stehli West machines. So they went over them. I'm not in the market for one, but I paid somewhat attention due to curiosity. I came away with this. For $250,000 is what it really takes. And that includes their softwater treatment. That is what the Rep says. I think it would pay for itself with just 500 acres of alfalfa. They have an onboard engine to do all the work. A Kubota engine to be exact. The only thing it gets from the tractor is one hydraulic connection for something that I can't remember. Depending on how much steam is needed the water tank can last from 2-6 hours. It was recommended in our area that guys still bale at night. But just to start at sundown instead of waiting for the dew. Then for the most part they would have 6-8 hours before heavy dew would shut down baling for the night. One local owner really likes the set up and claims that it added 100-200 lbs of leaf saving weight. He no longer runs two balers and tractors and operator and gets more done with just the one machine. The owner still softens his water even though his water supply is municiple water that is fairly soft as it is. He has to fuel up the steamer with diesel as often as his tractor he said.

So I think it is a good thing. Those of you that have never really had to wait two days for dew to bale alfalfa probably wouldn't understand the need. Many times we only get 30 minutes of perfect conditions for baling alfalfa. So to stretch that out to 7 hours is something. They are working on a smaller one for small squares also. However the current one can be used with those two small baler hitches that are available.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Three44s said:


> Just a caution here:
> 
> I believe that you may want to be careful in assuming that all the added bale weight is saved hay in your equation.
> 
> Certainly some weight is saved leaves and that is "money in the bank", two ways. Higher quality and more tonnage. But a heavier bale can also come by way of packing a given amount of hay tighter (moistened hay packs better) and the weight of the water you are adding.


Some of the wieght is H2O also

IDK how much actual moisture the steamer would add to a bale.

One time I quit baling for the day because it was bone dry,under 8%.My monitor just says DRY under 8%.So the next morning I bale the same distance in the field side by side and the baler is full in same distance but it weighs 200 more.So I was baleing hay about 10% wetter at 17% but the bale weighed 12% more.1650 vs 1850 lbs.

Not very scientific and not replicated.But interesting.So in this case 2% loss was due to leaf loss and 10% due to moisture.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Teslan,

The hydraulic connection from the tractor is for braking the Steamer. The Steamer weighs (ball park) about 30,000# loaded.

Three44s


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Ah Yes. And I remember the guy saying 30k pounds. There was more he went over with it but I had lost interest and left.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Three44s said:


> Just a caution here:
> I believe that you may want to be careful in assuming that all the added bale weight is saved hay in your equation.
> Certainly some weight is saved leaves and that is "money in the bank", two ways. Higher quality and more tonnage. But a heavier bale can also come by way of packing a given amount of hay tighter (moistened hay packs better) and the weight of the water you are adding.
> Not trying to rain on your parade as I am a big proponent of forwarding the craft of artificial dew and I feel for any grower struggling as I do .... ie. Fighting dry baling conditions.
> ...


Hmmm your reading the wrong book...lol. Currently don't own a big square. Use to use my neighbor to do my large square baling. He sold his machines and one was brought by another neighbor, whom I would not let bale my hay in a pink fit. He's notorious for rushing to get his done to go away for the weekend and such. So this year I dry hired his tractor and baler and did it myself. Not ideal as your still paying a fair bit for the contracting cost and doing all the work. I also don't like this option as then if something breaks your kind of obligated to fix it. So looking to purchase first and only big baler. And like Teslan, in summer here I have gone out at 3am and still no dew. You might only get an hour just on sunrise if it's not breezy.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Oh, my bad ..... lol!

Three44s


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Alfalfa is an interesting forage to bale, for sure. We are in the upper midwest U.S., and most of the time we are fighting to get alfalfa dry enough to bale. One of the best things we did was install a preservative applicator on the big square baler. Because of our location though, there have been some notable occasions when alfalfa became too dry to bale.

What I have found is that there is too dry, and then there is TOO DRY. Back in 2011 we got some very dry weather during first cutting and we baled 80 acres. Moisture was below 8% most of the time. I remember checking the humidity and hearing it was 17%. Funny thing was, it didn't seem like we were losing too much by baling that dry.

A couple years later we opted to take a 5th cutting of alfalfa, probably during October as I was baling stalks at the same time. We were under conditions that were desert like. Very low humidities, cold at night and warm during the day. The first 40 I started baling at 10:30 at night, long after sunset. Moisture was almost non existent, and was barely up at all a couple hours later when I finished. The next night I set out to bale the next 40, and after making a few bales and looking them over, I quit. It was so dry that the fine 5th cutting stems were shattering so bad that the bales looked like bales of sawdust. You know it's too dry when stem shatter is a problem. The next morning I started baling shortly after sun rise. There was frost on the windrows, and the moisture was up to 20%. By the time I was finished about 2 1/2 hours later, the moisture was down to the 12% range. The hay in the bales looked just awesome, much better than when I had tried it 10 hrs earlier.

I do very much believe that there is a time and place for steamers. And I agree whole heartedly that there is about a 1/2 hour window in which alfalfa is truly fit to rake or bale.

Another interesting lesson on the effects of moisture in round balers. Last fall I supplied a local feedlot with 1800 5x6 round stalk bales. All of them went across the scale. It was startling to find out how much weight difference there was. There was a 450lb spread in average bale weights. The pressure setting on the balers was the same on all bales. Bale size varied a little, but the difference in weights was largely due to moisture.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Gearclash,

We have been fooling with alfalfa since around 1969 up on our bench where we have too much air drainage at night and you get kicked around a lot in that many years.

For the first ten years we relied on hired help for our baling, we had a lot of mechanical issues due to mishandling of equipment. We had another employee through the early 80's but I did some stints baling and that's when I tried some different ideas on water application to windrows prior to baling. We even have been forced to park the sprinklers on the windrows for about five minutes, stop, drain and move towards the next set and refill and run for another "five" .... with three guys. One at the mover, one draining the line and the third hooking up and charging the line and unhooking.

I have tried field sprayers with big flood nozzles and both orchard and hop speed sprayers (fans).

We came closest with the hop sprayer since you can roll the fan housings over and point the air and water blast right where you want it. We would run 275 gallons of water in one round ..... so we effectively did just two windrows 1500 feet long with that much water. It was at night with a 20 mph wind. We waited 20 minutes and baled at 20 % moisture with preservative.

Yes we run preservative.

More of our preservative is used on dry leaf hay with stem moisture than hay that has too much dew.

In our late cuttings we have excess dew sometimes and preserve then or adjust our baling time away from pre-dawn AM times.

I hear you on the dry vs. DRY observation. Our old "tear them up" baler man called it "night air". It is not a dew but it is about half a sliver better than 100 degrees in the shade and no shade!

We cut during hot weather on wet ground behind the sprinklers and bale just before sunrise to gather as much night air with the breeze blowing the humidity from the upwind sprinklers down across the hay waiting to be baled.

I run my balers with the grain of the windrow (follow the swather) and gear my bale pickups down to more closely match our ground speed of the baler. This reduces shatter on the pick up but also seems to smooth the flow of the alfalfa inside the chamber.

It was not easy to get big tractors to fit in the tiny space afforded by running against the tight side ( narrow side between the windrow and PTO baler) so I flipped our baler chutes to drop bales behind them and added a curved metal ramp to the chute to shift the bales as the dropped out further to the right thus adding room for the tractor to run.

Running the old relic Selfpropelled balers helps because they always could follow the swather and with infinite ground speed I can keep the baler filled and eliminate the bale pick up from "grasping at straws" causing more shatter.

For me and the amount of hay acreage we have, $200,000 for a Steamer is just as untenable as 40 years of beating the leaves off of our alfalfa. There must be a middle ground.

We have been contemplating that middle ground.

I come from a family that believes in doing things themselves. Dad needed Wells and he became a well driller. The family has timber land and needed lumber so they built a saw mill .... well a "wood pecker sawmill" I admit .... lol!

The point is .... there is more one way to skin a cat.

Stahli West has been teasing about a smaller Steamer for a while but it makes little difference to me because by the time they roll it out it will surely cost more per pound than their current big unit. And I hold no grudge at what they charge because when you base your steam generation unit on a boiler you bring out the goblins .... government goblins and you have certifications and OSHA up the ying yang .... When you are selling to the public you have to put on cast iron under pants as well and lawyer up to boot.

But if you are building your own and running it yourself, you are in a different ball park. Also a boiler is but one way of generating steam. I don't need steam for a big baler (yet anyway) because I do small squares and I can do well with enough steam to augment pre-dawn night air. I would like to bale in the middle of the day but that is going to have to wait. I have been pouring math and steam generation for a while and I have both a neighbor and a cousin versed in computers. I have a valley full of other automation experts (big fruit area) and within that same vein there are steam people to boot from the processing sector.

There is a middle ground and I am after it.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Second last cut 3 months ago it was threatening rain. Brief shower after I started raking at midnight. Then after I started baling we had a few light showers. There had been no dew prior to this and the hay went from 9% to 14% and was back to 11% by the time I finished. Made beautiful hay at around 590kg bales and was snapped up by a buyer within a week. I've contemplated running the boom spray over each paddock before baling, but have been told it's a waste of time. Point being, seldom do you get perfect conditions and we can go weeks at a time here above 35°c peaking in the low 40s with night time temps in the 20s and a dew point of 12. I can't afford to wait for a dew in that situation as like leaf retention, colour is king when it comes to marketing. First words out of a buyers mouth are "Is it green and leafy"


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

The folks that are telling you about the boom sprayer being a waste of time are correct in my experience.

I have used boom sprayers and built a boom expressly for the job. All efforts a waste of time.

When I drove air and water into windrowed alfalfa I got some satisfaction but no prize. Water alone does not penetrate, it beads up and you have to bale too long after you have sprayed and it just softens the very top of the windrow with the core of row still bone dry.

So now we consider a fan to drive the water through the windrow. Remember the hay has a backstop if you will .... the ground. I used a hop yard speed sprayer and got closer to satisfaction than any hair brained thing I have tried and it was so so. You run between the rows and spray either side of two rows each pass. We ran out 275 gallons per two rows in one round trip .... a 3000 foot round trip. Think about that 275 gallons in 3000 feet! Very inefficient and time consuming and requires two people just for one baler. After twenty minutes I baled with preservative at 20% moisture.

I figure there are but three ways to get some relief. One is to use a windrow pick up device like these windrow mergers but design it for spraying a mist of water but drive it through the hay after it has been lifted off the ground. Top down, bottom up and sideways if that suits you but the air blast has to be able to pass entirely through. Where the air can not migrate, the water sure as heck will not travel either.

I took a regular orchard speed sprayer and built duct work off one side. Built a boom works to match. As the motor speed got high enough to get sufficient spray pressure, the windrow started levitating like a cobra snake rising out of the basket to a snake charmer's music!

A second way is the Harvest Tec machine (harvesttec.com) that uses a high pressure pump and a reel with hollow tubes that act as tines but rather than rake the hay, heated high pressure water is sprayed into the windrow.

The third is to use steam.

Three44s


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

I am in an area that generally gets too much dew. My favorite time to bale is after it cools off in the evening. In this part of the country a dairy or beef feeder will not pay anything more for leaf retention hay. What we have found with big bales is the leaves are still in the bale just not attached to the stems like we are used to seeing with small bales. I have tried to make better testing hay by baling with a dew but never could. The leaf retention hay looks better but its not really any better. Where we do try to have some leaf retention is for export. Export is still sold on looks, but its a really fine line between nice leaf retention and burnt hay. All of this is based on alfalfa.

The down sides to the steamer at having to let the bales sit in the field a day to cool before stacking and the cost. For my operation a 2nd baler would be a much better way to go. Less expensive and it also speeds up the baling in poor drying conditions when we have small windows because of too wet of hay. I have also been told that on the inside of a pivot the baler tends to miss a lot of the windrow. I cant imagine trying to use one in a small field with lots of turning.


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

I’m pro steamer I need to be I have one. It works if you keep the moisture under 14.5% we pick up the same day. What makes it work for us is one tractor one baler. Help is very hard to get. When I get it all hooked back up and out of the barns I’ll take some pic of it. Also you don’t miss any hay with it you just turn different on the center of pivots.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

I don't have pivots so no concern there for me. I'm on flood irrigated paddocks with several long rectangular bays in each. 4 laps round each bay with mower then up and back. This gives me 2 headland each end then 450m straight runs. So Deerezilla, how long do you leave them before pickup and how are you stacking them? Shed with 3 sides? How many high? And do you leave space between rows?


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

deerezilla,

Hey guy!

Details ....... details said the spyder to the fly! LOL!

Welcome, we'd like some back ground in meantime if you could be so kind.

Three44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay in Wa was kind enough to refer me to one of his friend's/neighbor's who has bought a Stahli West steamer and I thank him again!

The biggest take away from that conversation was a particular run involved 600 gallons of water applied as steam to 120 tons of hay.

If you break that down it amounts to 5 gal of water per ton and in small squares (we shoot for 100# ers) that translates to a quart or just a shade over 2# per bale. On our 100# bales that is 2%+ points of added moisture.

I did not keep Jay in Wa's friend on the hook too long but I did ask him what condition the hay was dry prior to steaming, he said it was ....... dry.

Now there are many shades of dry but even if you assume a pre-dawn dry of just 9 or 10 % as opposed to a heat of the day dry of less than 9% ........... and you add just 2 percentage points of water as steam to hold the leaves (enough) ............ for me that is pretty safe.

Member deerezilla mentioned 14.5% baling moisture with steam and that is right up there for a big baler but a cup of tea for small squares.

While I do not know where Jay in WA's farm is situated in his area, I can surmise that he's down on a flat with lots of surrounding irrigated farms or near the Columbia River or some other geographical feature that gives him dews too large to bale in. But everyone's farm has different factors from about every other and as he has his set of issues there are lots of others, many others that are dry like we are. Witness Jay in WA's friend who runs a steamer.

Our small square customers want leaf retention. I have a customer that has buffalo crosses and buys my best hay for them and he's cross with me if the hay is dry. In small squares (at least conventional baled) a dry bale does not mean the leaves are in there either. But when the feed is not processed and fed right out of the bale, loose leaves in the bale are also lost when you open it.

I have fed a few big alfalfa big bales (we bought them) and if you are running them through a tub grinder or similar and the leaves are in the bale but not attached that is no big deal. The dry bales probably grind easier as well. But if you are feeding them on the ground I'd lean towards stuck leaves but not relish prying them apart by hand. But the cows would win.

So there are tons of variables .............. it's not really pro steamer vs. anti steamer it's about each grower's specific conditions and their market and how they relate to it.

The size of the farm will trump everything .............. a 500 acre grower or larger can see a payout on a steamer more assuredly than a 100-150-200 acre grower like myself doing small squares.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

My neighbors steamer is for sale. They decided it was not worth the cost.

all of my comments are directed toward big bales. Small bales are a completely different animal and yes they need some moisture.

When feeding went to the total mixed ration it completely changed haying in this part of the country.


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

This is how we do it. I bale the night before then some time around 10 in the morning she gets started picking up. We pick up with a proag 16k. Stack it out side for at least a month then put it in the barns. For us it’s working I have been doing 1500acr of alfalfa and 500 acr of grass. With one baler most of the time. In this area no one wants to work. What was happening to me was I had to bale 150acr a day that ment dry good or in high moisture and pore the acid to it. We’re finding quality issues in the hay. Our buyer has been complaining about it and I have got docked on price


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Don't you get bleaching with it stacked outside for a month? The front face of mine bleached between cuts even in a 3 sided shed.


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes I do and don’t care all of my barns only have a roof and open on all sides so what’s the difference


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

deerezilla said:


> This is how we do it. I bale the night before then some time around 10 in the morning she gets started picking up. We pick up with a proag 16k. Stack it out side for at least a month then put it in the barns. For us it's working I have been doing 1500acr of alfalfa and 500 acr of grass. With one baler most of the time. In this area no one wants to work. What was happening to me was I had to bale 150acr a day that ment dry good or in high moisture and pore the acid to it. We're finding quality issues in the hay. Our buyer has been complaining about it and I have got docked on price


I see where it's advocated that big bales picked up are stacked with air gaps temporarily in a open shed but I was not aware of outside stacking for a month or more. We have some pretty good cloud bursts during the summer on occasion. That much exposure even on a big bale would be a deal breaker.

Are you fearing starting a fire with those big bales steamed due to excessive moisture rather than the heat of steam application which should be eliminated in some hours or a day?

Best regards

Three44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Jay in WA said:


> My neighbors steamer is for sale. They decided it was not worth the cost.
> 
> all of my comments are directed toward big bales. Small bales are a completely different animal and yes they need some moisture.
> 
> When feeding went to the total mixed ration it completely changed haying in this part of the country.


Was he using his steamer between a big baler and a pair of small squares or was he just running a big baler ............. I don't remember .......... I talked over the phone with him but that was last year.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

> Our small square customers want leaf retention. I have a customer that has buffalo crosses and buys my best hay for them and he's cross with me if the hay is dry. In small squares (at least conventional baled) a dry bale does not mean the leaves are in there either. But when the feed is not processed and fed right out of the bale, loose leaves in the bale are also lost when you open it.
> 
> I have fed a few big alfalfa big bales (we bought them) and if you are running them through a tub grinder or similar and the leaves are in the bale but not attached that is no big deal. The dry bales probably grind easier as well. But if you are feeding them on the ground I'd lean towards stuck leaves but not relish prying them apart by hand. But the cows would win.


We use all of our alfalfa production ourselves. We are of the philosophy that if the leaves are still in the bale, good enough. It all goes in the mixer wagon, and frankly, even if the leaves were still attached to the stems when they went in the wagon, they won't be by the time the load is mixed. I do know that there is a huge difference between trying to keep the leaves in the bale with a small baler vs a large square. Unfortunately about every aspect of a small baler make it harder on leaves.

Dry alfalfa does mix much easier than tough alfalfa.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Gearclash,

You bet, just referencing baling small squares, if the leaves are migrating you are losing significant amounts. I have a PHD in small square leaf shatter.

So the question is how does the Steamer pay with a big squares? After all that is what the current model is designed for.

Every grower has different circumstances and customers.

While the leaf loss is less with big squares in dry hay, it still exists. Jay in WA has tested and found the loss to not be significant (in big squares) and for those processing their feed, the leaves are "still in the tub" and the hay chops up easier.

The cost of these steamers is quite significant. With the hay markets where they are now this places even more pressure on their feasibility.

Kicking the above issues aside for a moment, putting up hay successively amounts to way too much "hurry up and wait" and way too little "go". Whether you have too much dew at night or early AM's does not eliminate this problem. Creating more opportunity to bale has value because all those hours where the windrows are too dry are potential baling hours with a Steamer, not necessarily all of them but a number of them.

If a grower has conditions similar to ours (no true dew most nights) then the entire time from sundown to 8 or 9 AM would be prime Steamer time as opposed to the current 2 1/2 to 3 hours of punishment we put ourselves through much less the mornings we can not even bother to warm our balers up for.

If you can whip the dew problem in these very dry areas there is a silver lining. Dew is another factor that bleaches hay. Sun does as well but we still have outstanding color beyond the point our hay would otherwise bale if it were not too dry. But if we are not able to bale the sun bleaching catches up with us.

I will never be able to pencil out the Staheli West Steamer .... I don't have enough acres and my market is better in small squares. The Steamer is designed for big squares.

I am a believer in steam none the less.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

deerezilla said:


> Yes I do and don't care all of my barns only have a roof and open on all sides so what's the difference


I get bleaching and my barns are completely enclosed. I do keep the doors open on either end to have air flow. One year I closed them and there was less bleaching but it was still there. But if you have a buyer that complains about the ends and tops of some bales being bleached it's better to move on from that buyer.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I would be more concerned with having the big squares out cooling off and getting caught in a storm than some of the ends of big squares bleaching in a shed.

I know there are people (buyers) like that but it still amazing me.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Three44s, been thinking about introducing moisture into a windrow. Trying to avoid the complications of a boiler. What kind of possibilities does extreme high pressure water spray offer? Think water jet cutter pressures, ~ 60,000 psi. Very hot water, like 200*, and a blower to get it into the windrow? Atomization without boiling--kinda like diesel fuel injection.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Sure, check the Harvest Tec unit.

They heat the water for better penetration now and also add a surfactant (I believe).

Google dew simulator

As I recall they use about 750 psi with the current model 720 and about 2500 psi with the cold water older model 710.

Here you have a concept using a unit driven ahead of the baler because liquid water does not absorb as fast as steam. As I recall it is recommended about fifteen minutes ahead. The surfactant helps the water absorb into the hay.

You mentioned a fan. Remember, the ground acts as a "dam" if you will. You need to elevate a windrow for air to appreciably move vertically through the windrow.

Not saying it will not work because it can but just pointing out that you end up with a separate operation. They claim one simulator will keep up with more than one big square.

This is my off the cuff observation: I have studied this problem quite a bit. The idea of steam is that you are applying moisture in a form that works instantly. You don't utilize a separate driver because steam is virtually instant and applies right on the baler. The Harvest Tec unit uses two boilers running 750,000 Btus each. I run small squares and by my calculations I should be able to generate steam at 4% points with that much fire and run about 200 small squares per hour. My target for a begining program is to generate just 2% points to augment baling just during night hours and a bit of the early daylight pounding out those same 200 small squares per hour with half the burner capacity.

I think of creating steam as something that deserves great caution. A true boiler even at low pressure (15 psi or less) draws more bureaucratic attention than steam coils do. My "steam people" thus far are more favorable about steam coil method than an out an out boiler because of the certification and recertification issues attached with boilers.

Three44s


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

You guys make way to big of a deal of me leaving hay out for a month. Most summers I don't get any ran I'm in high desert. 3000 ton per cutting takes a little time to put way. Every one has a different way of doing hay my buyers want the leaves on the stem. Before the steamer I was running up to 25% yes and more with acid with no burning bales. I did 12000 bales of alfalfa last year I had about 65 burnt bales that I fed to my cows. 
I do find if the temp is over 80 degrees it's gets expensive to run the steamer. I fine it easer to make 1650lbs bales most bales from start to finish are within 30lbs of each other. 
The steamer is not perfect the water treatment is a pia it's heavy can't see the baler with out cameras. Does not adjust its self for steem so your constantly watching the moisture and moving the % . When you get to a turn you have to shut it off or you get a slug. 
My jd 8335r users about 10gal a hr pulling both then the 80hp Kubota uses about 5 gal per hr. But I push my baler hard 22-26 flakes per bale about ever 42 sec it's tying. If I had better help I would run 2 balers it's easier. If one goes down your still running.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

deerezilla,

What I do not understand is why a month? The temp rise from steaming is long gone weeks before that.

I understand you are in the high dessert of Burns Ore. and don't pretend to know your chances of cloud bursts due to thunderstorm activity but from my frame of reference in Yakima, we occasionally get some real gully washers ....... usually right after hauling in some real nice 2nd cutting horse hay that has not gotten tarped yet.

Best regards

Three44s


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

I just going to say when your mostly a one man band it takes time to get everything done. My other problem is I'm getting older and I just don't care any more. I have been making hay for over 40 Years now. I have found out over the years,I'm just talking about me so no one get them pantys in a bunch.I don't get one red cent more for breaking my but getting it in the barn.
I won't even get all you people started about what I do with second or third or even my orchard grass.

This is the saying I live by. There is two things we don't do around here care or give a [email protected]@k. If number one don't work number two always works.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

I have 40 years of haying in too and I hear you loud and clear. In my case I don't get paid any more for leaf retention so why bother. Sure the hay looks and feels nicer but I need to be paid for the extra effort.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

deerezilla said:


> I just going to say when your mostly a one man band it takes time to get everything done. My other problem is I'm getting older and I just don't care any more. I have been making hay for over 40 Years now. I have found out over the years,I'm just talking about me so no one get them pantys in a bunch.I don't get one red cent more for breaking my but getting it in the barn.
> I won't even get all you people started about what I do with second or third or even my orchard grass.
> This is the saying I live by. There is two things we don't do around here care or give a [email protected]@k. If number one don't work number two always works.


I have no doubt that labor is in short supply in Burns.

Don't count on today's kids anymore either, their all seem to have caught video game virus.

Perhaps manufacturing engineers should build video interfaces into everything with remote controls and we can put these youngsters in a "quiet place" with their shiny smart phones .... the next shortage will be bandaids for our equipment.

Three44s


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Gearclash,

I have been thinking about the Harvest Tec Dew Simulator and their heating of the water. I don't know why I missed what they are doing with this now.

Their first iteration ran straight cold water (the 710) but they claim to be delivering water @ 240 degrees with version 2.0 (the 720). What I glossed over at first is that water kept at high pressure will not boil at that temperature but as soon as it is released into atmospheric pressure it will boil (release steam),

Perhaps they figured this out to avoid the wrath of infringing on what ever patents that Staheli West holds that are still in force yet improve the functioning of their machine?

There would be a big advantage in lifting the windrow to apply water or steam or a combination with or with out fans as opposed to leaving it on the ground. The ground creates a huge "backstop" to a fan system, I know as I have already been there. A number of years ago I took an old old orchard speed sprayer and built a heavy duct work to direct the forced air around and down to a single windrow. Because the hay was backstopped the water I applied on it sat on top of the row just as all my past efforts without air.

My being skunked was not because of a shortage of fan capacity because as I ran up the fan speed the windrow started to lift off.

Getting at all sides of a windrow provides access and a path for the applied water/steam/forced air to move beyond the outside of the hay mass. I also believe that the amount of air movement needed would not be large since the back pressure would be much less (with the row lifted).

Something like a modified windrow merger could the basis for a "lifter". One could DIY your own unit. It could be based on an old baler header (just like New Holland does with a new one) or it could built using an old unit that attaches to a combine header that picks up windrowed crop (wide rubber belt with fingers bolted onto it).

Behind the lifter you could create gaps under the windrow to pass over before it is dropped back to the ground. These gaps would be the opportunity to add moisture to the underside of the row and to better penetrate the row from the top side as well.

The 1000 pound gorilla with such a system is that it requires a second operator with brains and with a willingness to work less than conventional hours.

Did I just offer the definition of a farmer? Lol

Well, maybe one team up with a neighbor with a similar problem?

Best regards

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Well, found out today that yes, it's very important to leave the hay out to cool down....Had a b double come for a load of hay today and he was telling me his boss who also is a hay producer, lost a brand new shed full of hay and a brand new loader. They had bought a brand new hd baler and steamer and his son in law was in charge of it all for the first time. First outing with it and he had his mates come around to give him a hand and as soon as the bales were coming out they were stacking them onto a truck and straight into the new shed. A few weeks back we had a nasty hot windy day (unprecedented heat for mid April) and up it went.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Sorry to hear about the grower who lost so much!

There are producers who set aside a cooling shed to loose stack big squares and then restack in a shed for long term after they have cooled down.

Everyone's situation will be different as to available labor and equipment.

I would want fire risky forage as far away from my "safe hay" as I could so grappling all those big squares any distance would be out as an option. They would have to be reloaded enmass, off loaded and restocked in a shed. There is a limit to everything.

I don't do big squares so I don't think about it too closely except as a concept in case we go big squares.

My small squares cool faster but would be a real pain to rehandle so much. My best bet would likely to cool them a day or so in the row. A meter with temp read will have to be on hand if we get a Steamer up and running.

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Probably didn't help that they bought a krone hd baler as well. The truck driver said they were pushing out 740 kg bales with it.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I have never understood farmers who go to casinos, farming is a much bigger gamble. But to "space it" by bringing those big squares in "hot off the press" and changing up to an HD baler to boot just doesn't cut it!

Welcome to the school of hard knocks!

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Well I think I've come to a conclusion on this one. Was talking to the company doing the national marketing of my hay today. I raised the question of steamers. He said be very careful as he knows of 3 sheds being burnt this year with steamed hay.( 1 was the shed I mentioned above). Although this is purely operator error....however I asked if their was a premium for steamed hay....He said no. Also said that steamed Lucerne loses its smell and that he has a lot of buyers refusing to buy steamed hay for this reason.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Heck, there might only be three outfits in all of Aus who have steamers?

Three44s


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Nah. Few more than that. Think I now know of 5 within 100 mile radius of me But he did say be careful before you go and spend $500 000 au........Holy bloody hell!!!! Hope that's not what new ones retail for here....


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Well, after some reflection on those sheds and hay lost, I think that there is likely some carelessness with not cooling bales and/or pouring too much steam onto the hay at baling. Perhaps they even baled at ambient air temps higher than recommended as the stopping point.

Somebodies broke the "rules" and paid for it.

From dry hay there is a lot of room for a unit as sophisticated as these steamers to apply moisture in a controlled fashion without undue risk as long as protocols are followed.

As far as the cost of these units you will get no argument from me. I do not begrudge what they charge but I can not pay that much for one. I am bound and determined to fix my dry hay problem never the less.

******* engineering!

Three44s


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

Yes looked at haymlast week steamed and left it,it did not smell "smell right"and the colour was dull and they had lost a shed and one of their cleints they press for was not overly excited about it.and the end of the,day no one will pay extra for it.you can,t mess with nature it will bite you on the bum evertime


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Waldo said:


> Yes looked at haymlast week steamed and left it,it did not smell "smell right"and the colour was dull and they had lost a shed and one of their cleints they press for was not overly excited about it.and the end of the,day no one will pay extra for it.you can,t mess with nature it will bite you on the bum evertime


The question is whether it is the process or the manner it is applied?

I contend that between bone dry hay and spoilage that there is a fair range of happy medium.

.... and more so with small squares where I am at.

If you take alfalfa metering 9% or less and add 2 percentage points of moisture as steam and get 11% or less I think you have improved your situation.

With my SP balers I can not tow a moose of a system. The varidrive will not tollerate it even if I wanted to. The labor safety requirements have concerned with a true pressurized boiler as well. So my thoughts are more along the lines of a steam coil set up. You still have to attend to safety but the dangers are more confined to the external plumbing and hoses. The generating unit is less bulky and heavy and more attuned to the capacity of small square balers.

In prototype stage it is going to be a little "Wild West" but if it works out I have two really good computer people at hand with a third in the wings who can help me bring my own smaller system to a more automated state.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

The comments regarding steamed hay failures remind me a great deal of negative responses to preservative. I have used preservative with excellent results. My feeling is that the process of adding moisture artificially to hay will eventually be no less successful than using preservative.


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## Hay diddle diddle (Nov 17, 2017)

Yeah I realise that it obviously can be done right ( risk of fire that is). But I don't think preservatives change the smell like steamers apparently do?? At the end of the day if the customer doesn't want it what's the point??


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

gearclash,

I certainly agree on the preservative. We use it with good hay whenever possible.

Hay diddle diddle,

My small square customers would and do want it. I have no experience with the big squares since we do not do those.

Best regards

Three44s


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Hay diddle diddle said:


> Yeah I realise that it obviously can be done right ( risk of fire that is). But I don't think preservatives change the smell like steamers apparently do?? At the end of the day if the customer doesn't want it what's the point??


The buffered propionic acid that we use certainly leaves an odor in the bale. I can't speak for other types of preservative. The odor is an excuse for some hay buyers to try to discount the hay. That is pig wash because the lab tests on hay with preservative show that the feed value is there. And over all the years of feeding hay that had preservative in it I have never seen cows or calve refuse it at all.


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I use the dry products. My mainstay is the Forage Inoculant by Pioneer.

If there is more than a scant trace of weeds, particularly grasses, it lets you down. The upside is it is diamonds with straight alfalfa and good action with 20% moisture and down in the stem.

I detect no smell and not a single buyer has ever batted an eye at it much less walked away because of it.

My problem is that trying to catch the right combination where there is enough stem moisture to save the leaves but not so much that even my preservative can not hold the hay when we are lacking dew just does not happen very often. Typically our alfalfa in the windrow dries down fast enough that it is too much stem moisture one day and too dry for the stems to affect the leaf retention the next.

My best and most frequent use of preservative besides a rare big dew, occurs after a rain shower after the effects have mellowed sufficiently.

Relating to steamers, I suspect that the heat from application may well kill the bacteria in our preservative. It will take testing to determine that.

Three44s


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