# Need help with dry horse haying in the 21st century



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

My 70 year old dad just moved up here to Massachusetts from West Virginia. He's an old school guy - Massey 255 with a sickle bar, bar rake, and square baler. His only "modern" update was buying a tedder a few years ago. His system in WV was to wait for 4-5 days of clear warm weather, mow on day 1, use the tedder on day 2, and rake and bale on day 4 (or day 3 if it was warm enough and the hay got full sun). Myself, I haven't hayed since before college.

Trust me, at 70, he can work most 30 year olds in the ground. The good news is that he has me to help now, and my son in a few years. Also, having retired early, I have a few dollars to help bring his methods into the 21st century to hopefully allow him to hay with a smaller weather window, make better hay, make it a bit easier, and who knows perhaps even hay for his neighbors. Plus, it's great to work with him again.

I've done numerous web searches, gathered conflicting (and often outdated) information based on situations not exactly like ours, and came out feeling more uneducated than when I started. So I'm hoping y'all can give me guidance on equipment and methods, as well as helping me prioritize what to buy first.

I guess I'll start with the hay. His old farm was perfect for dry horse hay. Some grass, timothy, alphalpha, and clover. His new place looks to be fescue and some weird cabbage and lettuce looking things. Needless to say, at a minimum he wants to add timothy. His idea is to get bags of timothy seed next spring and just walk the 40 acres and throw it. As for the cabbage and lettuce looking things, he is looking at them as "milkweed" - not ideal, but "not worth getting your panties in a bunch."

Mower/conditioners is where I originally started. I figured buying one would cut a day or two off of his window. Then I've seen everything from them not really reducing drying time for dry hay, to the flail type making clover and alphalpha useless, to allowing for perfect dry hay in 2 days. So I have no idea what type to get, or even if it is better. I'm not worried about the 255 being able to handle one. I've been thinking about buying a used tractor with a cab and a/c for him next year anyway, and keeping the 255 as a helper. I've been considering the JD 6410 MFWD.

I had better luck with rakes, and will probably pick up some brand of rotary rake next year.

He got a good deal on a NH 311 baler when he moved. So he's been working on it all winter, so we'll see how it does.

For the tedder, I've seen all sorts of advice from doing it how he does it, to using it as soon as you mow, to using it twice a day.

Any knowledge and/or advice would be appreciated. I also apologize for the numerous typos. I'm down to one arm (broke my elbow a few weeks ago) and am using my wife's iPad to type, which apparently thinks I do not know what I want to type. For instance it keeps autocorrecting tedder to Teddy Roosevelt. I tried to scroll up to proofread, and ended up autocorrecting a sentence to something unreadable.

Thank you.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Welcome!

The first thing I would do in the equipment department would be adding a mower conditioner (regardless of conditioning style). And, yes, getting more easily dried domestic grasses will also help. BUT depending on your local conditions, it's still possible that you'll be working with the same weather window. These things will merely improve your chances of success but might not drastically shorten your process. You're still looking at a 3-4 day process.


----------



## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Your doing a good thing for dad and I hope your son will appreciate the opportunity to learn.

If your crop isn't real heavy a sickle conditioner machine will make a nice fit. Maybe have someone spray for broadleaf weeds this fall if there isn't any alfalfa or clover in the fields than there will be room for that timothy. As far as when to Ted, every day is different. Trial and error, enjoy the ride.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Thank you!

So my original instinct seems correct. Dad is not a fan on conditioners since someone he knew picked up a rock and had to "pay a fortune" to fix it, whereas he'd only need to replace a couple teeth on his sickle bar. As with most things, I'm guessing this issue has improved over time.

My son is already learning, even at 4. Heck, he's even developing his own opinions. Dad has always been a Massey guy, and I've never been much for brand loyalty. however since before he was two, my son has been a John Deere guy. My 2 year old daughter couldn't care less, as long as Grandpap takes her for a ride. ;-)

It's been an odd spring up here, but the field is still pretty thick in places. With the proper care (which it hasn't had for decades) I expect it to thicken up nicely. One thing I didn't like about sickle bars growing up was that it was a pain if the grass was laying down. Seeing the number of neighbor's with unmowed fields, if we decide to go that direction, the first few cuttings could be an issue as I suspect there is a lot of old growth laying flat and keeping the fields thin.

There is clover in there, though I can't yet tell which type. Except for that cabbage and lettuce stuff, which seems to grow in patches, there doesn't seem to be much broadleaf other than clover and the occasional dandelion.

Thanks again. The past few months have already been rewarding, helping my parents move, helping them get the new place spruced up, and figuring out how the new place lives. Heck, even shattering my elbow hasn't been that bad, since everyone gets to see each other as my parents are helping us daily. I really am appreciating everything and very thankful that they are now an hour away instead of 12 (or a 6 hour flight when I lived in California). No complaints at all.


----------



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Dang - I'd be moving to WV........ 

The MF255 is a terrific tractor, one of the best small square baling tractors IMHO. The 311 is a great baler too, not a high capacity baler, but will crank out squares all day, every day. If you don't have a manual for it, you can download a pdf from New Holland with a credit card. They also have free, printable PDFs of the balers -exploded view parts lists.

IMHO - at minimum, you need a haybine of some sort. A sickle haybine vs a discbine would work well and the hp requirements square with the tractor you have. Conditioning the hay will speed things up and help ward-off dust and mold potential.

Milkweed can be poison to horses - be carefull with it.

If you spread the swath out of the haybine wide (it's adjustable, wide vs narrow), and let it cook in the sun for a day, then ted the next day is what we are doing. This is mostly driven by time available as cutting and tedding the same day requires mort hours than we generally have.

Don't think you want to hand spread 40 acres. You should be able to rent a seed drill. Soil test, fertilize, lime as necessary. I'd recommend a late summer/early fall planting. Don't think you'll have much success seeding timothy in the spring.

A weed sprayer and fertilizer spreader are handy to have too.

Are you keeping or selling the hay?

Good luck,
Bill


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

When we decided to move out of California a few years ago, the motivating factors were a) a family friendly place, b) closer to our families (my wife is originally from outside Pittsburgh), and c) to allow my wife to follow her passion - namely to work for a company trying to cure various cancers and improving treatments until that happens. New England won out. Being an only child and a couple of grandchildren later, my parents decided to move from the area where they spent their lives to be closer to us. Trust me, there are few places that I'd rather be than West Virginia.

That 255 has been solid. No plans to ever get rid of that. I suspect after I buy a tractor with a cab, Dad will drive that, and I'll brave the sun with the 255. My thought had been to make sure whatever I buy has 100+ hp, so that it'll run whichever mower we decide to get. I've seen a few JD 6410s for sale, and given that there are a few wet spots in the field, well that tractor seems to have a nice balance of creature comforts, hp, and only 8000 lbs. Thus, we'll be able to get whichever mo/co is best for us, and not be limited to the 255's hp.

I've not seen a single milkweed up here (knock on wood), but growing up, none of our horses would ever touch the stuff. If a bale of hay had some in it, the horses would ignore it similar to how my kids ignore ricotta cheese in lasagna. ;-)

i suspect we'll use some hay and sell the rest. Also given the sheer number of horse stables in the area, high price of hay, and the number of fields not being used for anything, after we get our bearings this year, perhaps we'll expand next year.

Good call on the fertilizer spreader. I have a feeling that unless those cabbage and lettuce things are an issue, Dad will balk at the idea of a weed sprayer since he's "never needed one in the past." ;-)


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Danderson said:


> Good call on the fertilizer spreader. I have a feeling that unless those cabbage and lettuce things are an issue, Dad will balk at the idea of a weed sprayer since he's "never needed one in the past." ;-)


Can post a picture of your cabbage and lettuce things, someone here can help you ID your pest, perhaps (with a prescription) . IMHO


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Thank you! Great idea. We'll be over there this weekend, so I'll walk the field and get a few pictures if the weather holds. If I get there sooner, I'll try to get some pictures then.

Talking to Dad about it today, he thinks they are vanishing, perhaps due to the weather finally warming a bit, perhaps being choked out by taller growth, or perhaps he just can't see it as well because of the surrounding growth.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Your cabbage maybe Plantain...

Regards, Mike


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Here are a couple pictures.

It appears that the cabbage things grow and turn in to the lettuce things. Also, they are mostly near areas that have stayed wet most of the spring.

Speaking of plantains, I did see a couple near the front of the field.


----------



## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

More pictures would be helpful. The second picture looks like there is also some bedstraw over to the right. As always its best to start by taking soil samples and determining fertility before making planting decisions.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Would you like more pictures of the strange plants, of other parts of the field (thin areas, thick areas, etc.), or something else?

The second picture is the yard right next to the hay field.


----------



## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

I don't mean to hijack the thread since your original question was about equipment choices. However, if you intend to be selling the hay to horse or other livestock owners then knowing what is growing in your fields is important. Your reputation with buyers is important as word of mouth still matters in small communities. More pictures of the fields might help identify the dominant plants. A soils and site analysis would help figure out what might best grow there.

It sounds like you have a tight budget so late winter broadcast spreading of clover as the ground undergoes freeze/thaw cycles works well here in New England. Freedom Red Clover is a faster drying variety due to its this smooth stems. Crimping with a MOCO still helps but clover can be real tough to dry even with tedding. Timothy and orchard grass are popular with horse owners HERE. Timothy will not recover well if you take more than 2 cuttings per year however.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

I can take more pictures this weekend. The challenge will be that each part of the field is very different due to the previous owners' sporadic and inconsistent care. We have several parts that have old tall growth laying flat, which has caused the ground to be extremely wet. Some new growth is making it through though. Our plan is to see how much it dries this summer and brush hog as much as we can. Other parts have heavy thatch, from those sections having been sporadically mowed. We will hay those this year (tedding and raking will probably help), and if needed (which we doubt) brush hogged this fall. Finally, we have other parts that are relatively thick, and appear to be mostly fescue and clover (my guess is white).

I wouldn't say that money is tight. Dad is just very old school and frugal. I'm currently planning on buying a 100ish hp tractor with a cab, disc mo/co (probably rubber rollers), and a rotary rake before next spring. I'm now trying to decide what combination of broadcast spreader, sprayer, and/or manure spreader we need. Also I'm trying to see what the closest / best source of Ag lime is around here, to see if we should buy a lime spreader or if it'll make more sense to rent one from them. Then I'm trying to figure out what brands / models are best, and if we're missing anything.

This area is kind of a black hole for farm businesses. We're about 40 minutes from 2 places that work on tractors, no local feed stores that we've seen, and even 20 minutes from the nearest Tractor Supply. I'm sure part of that is being new to the area, and just not knowing the lay of the land.

The entire situation is unique and fun. All I know of haying is what Dad has taught me as a kid and what I've read recently on the Internet. Dad is a 70 year old "make due" self-taught farmer, who'd be just as comfortable putting up hay with a team of horses. He moved up here last fall to be with the grandkids, and quickly saw that everything (including hay) is very different here. The family and I head over (from the Boston suburbs) most weekends to spend time and to work through things like this to make it home for them. Of course me shattering my elbow kinda slowed a lot of that. 

So I'm appreciative of any/ all advice I can get - even on things I haven't figured to ask yet. I have no issue taking lots of pictures or doing whatever I can to help folks to give me advice.

Side note, yesterday my 4 year old son was "helping" Dad put teeth on his parallel bar rake (today they are going to improvise a jack on it). My 2 year old daughter would rather play, until she hears that 255 start, then she wants a ride. ;-). Even with one working arm, good times.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Here are 2 more pictures. The first is where the field borders the back yard and the second is where it borders the side yard.

The clovers is flowering. It is white.

Let me know what other pictures you'd like. If I get to the back this weekend, I'll get pictures there as well.


----------



## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

Danderson those are some pretty pastures. They are similar to a lot of the small farm fields we have around here. They can be challenging to hay with so many edges staying in the shadows and low spots refusing to dry out. However, if you match the right plants to the right conditions and don't try to force a square peg into a round hole they can be very productive fields for many years. You didn't mention livestock but those would make some nice grazing ground. There is no more efficient method for converting solar energy into protein than grazing ruminants on quality pasture. Tractors and mowers and tedders and rakes and balers and trailers aren't nearly as reliable or enjoyable to own. Just my .02 worth.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Thanks! I couldn't agree more.

The plan is to buy about 4-6 horses/ponies this fall. There are some pastures on the other side of the river (really, it's more of a creek) that are easier for horses to get to than tractors. We'll create an "access pasture" along one of the tree lines so that they have a wide variety of places to roam.

That'll still leave plenty of hay for use and selling.


----------



## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

The first picture you posted looks like what we call skunk cabbage step on one of those and you will think there is a skunk nearby . It only grows where it is super wet.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Thanks farmer brown! There are some in dry areas, but about 90% are in currently wet areas (areas where grasses were allowed to grow thick and tall, then flattened which is retaining massive moisture).

I've never seen skunk weed, so I will crush a leaf today to verify. I recall a friend having a skunk weed problem when I was a kid. If I recall correctly, toxic to horses (and other livestock) and damn near impossible to get rid of. He ended up changing the drainage of his pasture, then covering with a bunch of dirt. I never saw or smelled it first hand though.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

We crushed a couple leaves today. They just smelled like a regular weed. The mystery continues.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Quick question. I have the opportunity to purchase a MF 5455 for a good price. Would this be a good "flagship" tractor for us, or should I target something else? Primarily I'd like to get a used rubber roller discbine (if that is the best for my purposes), and keep Dad cool as he drives it. ;-)

So should I pursue the 5455?

Thanks!


----------



## Tater Salad (Jan 31, 2016)

Some of that is curly dock.......VERY bad for horses...You HAVE to get that field right 1st....Weed free , No gray area on that....Decide who your customers will be and that will determine further steps. You can get away with some quality issues with cows (unless dairy) goats & sheep(I'm pointing this out so you know there's Hay and then there's Hay)....If for caring horse owners , get ready to bust out the disc , decide what you want to grow/supply and rent a drill/packer.....There's the right way and the "good enuff" way.....Ya gotta choose....THEN the guys on here will guide you to the promised land.......Enjoy , its a blast !!!!!..............As to your above question , The equipment needs to fit the operation .......What are you going to do ? And what do you need to do it......The Hay and acreage determines everything else


----------



## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I'd say get a weed book for your area with good drawings or pictures for your weed ID issues.

On tractors and equipment .......... look at dealer support. The color of iron in you area will tell you what works there ....... no dealer ............ then no dice.

As tractor brands go ...... I am a real believer in JD and their sound guard cab ....... that said, MF with the Perkins diesel is real hard to argue with ....... Perkins is a very solid engine and just from looking at the 5455 specs real quick .... it looks like it has some good features.

I have to admit I am pretty old school .......... my one JD is a 4430 and I did not even know the MF line up presently.

Your 255 MF is out of a line of tractors that are very solid ......... I do know that much ........... LOL!

As to Conditioning hay ........... I don't know anything else ........... and I hail from a very dry hot area ........... desert in fact. And, there is no better conditioner than one that intermeshes, like the NH chevron roller. They are adjustable to how severe they crimp so you can really steepen your drying curve ..... just don't run them together and tear the rubber off of them.

As to waiting for 4-5 days of good weather before cutting ........ I take issue with that ...... better cut in the rain so to speak to get a drying window ........ Seriously ..... green cut hay with a shower is still green pretty hay ...... rain on hay just about ready to bale is where the damage is .......... if you lose those precious 4-5 days of good weather before cutting you are already lost .......... IMO

Also, don't bale hay on a formula ....... so many days this and so many days that ...... drying of hay is very subject to the actual conditions at hand ..... wind or the lack there of, heat, humidity, windrow density ........ ground moisture ..... how much dew each night leading up to baling ....... what is actually in the windrow .........

You'd be surprised how weed stem moisture plays havoc on hay storability ..... you must become your own judge on when to bale and not rely on a formula.

Moisture testers are a big help. When getting your feet wet ......... here's a trick: When you are in doubt ......... bale just a little ............ a bale or two and let them sit for a day or two and then re-test ............ that will give you some idea over time as to how many "tough" stems you can get away with. You see, the meter can't see that moisture ..... it only reads the outside of the plant. As the bale sits it moderates and the stem moisture will come out.

Similarily, the outside dew moisture will absorb and the meter may tell you it went down.

Only by making a "few wrecks" can one learn ........ a bale or two won't kill anyone .......... and you'll learn from each experience! A little secret ........ I have been around the alfalfa game on the same farm all my life and I turn 60 in less than two months ......... and my family has been here since 1871 ....... and I and We are still learning! It never ends.

I sell alfalfa to horse people mostly and feed "our mistakes" to our commercial beef herd and can tell you that I'd look at what folks are buying first and what they are really after second.

If you can produce what they are yearning .......... provided you can produce it efficiently .......... that would be a go ........ otherwise, just do what is easier.

Good luck and hope your elbow heals expediciously!

Three 44s


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Danderson said:


> Quick question. I have the opportunity to purchase a MF 5455 for a good price. Would this be a good "flagship" tractor for us, or should I target something else? Primarily I'd like to get a used rubber roller discbine (if that is the best for my purposes), and keep Dad cool as he drives it. ;-)
> 
> So should I pursue the 5455?
> 
> Thanks!


I would love to have a cheap 5455 for baling and some other chores. I'm pretty sure slowzuki has one.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

The 5455 fell through. Apparently "like new" and "excellent condition" does not necessarily mean it has an engine. 

The curly dock was from the back yard. It is close enough to the field to concern me, but I've not yet seen it in the field (knock on wood).

First and foremost, it's Dad's land and his call ultimately. He's done hay his way for 60 years. All I can do is give him information, and occasionally buy something for him that he will hopefully use. He's never fertilized other than with manure, and he's never sprayed for weeds. He is clearly a "good enough" guy. I'm a perfectionist, so I'd usually do things differently. ;-)

The good news is that he is surrounded by horse folks and a stable where he lives. If his hay standards are lower than theirs, then he'll see what he needs to do.

Having horses for 60 years, he has his preferences. He likes very dry grass hay with about 20% Timothy, some nice clover, and a bit of alfalfa. A touch of milkweed and curly dock never bothered him since his horses would never eat it. Selling is a different animal, but experience will convince him before I will. Then I can be there with the information he needs to make a good decision. Plus, if the tractor and mo/co "change his life", then maybe I can convince him of other things as well.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Three 44s, I just bought Dad "Weeds of the Northeast". Hopefully that's a good one.

Whereas I'm a bit of an amateur, Dad is pretty good at getting his hay dry, especially during those wet WV summers where he used to live. I suspect I'll learn a lot when I help him this time around. It just sucks that I'm useless this year.

I get another x-ray on Friday. If it has healed enough, I get a restricted movement brace and start physical therapy. If not, another cursed partial cast for 3 more weeks.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm intrigued by the 5455 with no engine. Details?


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

$22k

Sides looked fine. Rear looked banged up, rusted, and rough. Dad asked if we could hear it. The guy said that it didn't have an engine. Dad said, "Excuse me?" Guy lifted the hood and there was no engine.

After a 2 hour drive to get there, we didn't even ask why. Just told the guy that wouldn't work for us, and we left.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Double posted


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Very odd. I'm guessing you mean the head was off the engine unless it was blocked up. Way overpriced though although the full open hood models are much newer than mine.

$22k

Sides looked fine. Rear looked banged up, rusted, and rough. Dad asked if we could hear it. The guy said that it didn't have an engine. Dad said, "Excuse me?" Guy lifted the hood and there was no engine.

After a 2 hour drive to get there, we didn't even ask why. Just told the guy that wouldn't work for us, and we left.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

We thought it may be overpriced just from how it looked from the back, before we knew about the engine. It was pretty bad.

Yes, it wasn't the entire engine that was missing, just what seemed like the majority of it. I'm not sure why he wouldn't mention that when we talked/emailed. I have no idea what he was thinking.

Ah well. The MF 255 will do this year, and I'll buy something this year or early next. I'll feel better choosing a tractor after seeing how the field hays this summer. If there are soft spots, I'll stick to something under 10,000 lbs. If it's solid ground, I can get more HP to give me more options for rubber roller disc mower conditioners.


----------



## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

Danderson said:


> Three 44s, I just bought Dad "Weeds of the Northeast". Hopefully that's a good one.
> 
> Whereas I'm a bit of an amateur, Dad is pretty good at getting his hay dry, especially during those wet WV summers where he used to live. I suspect I'll learn a lot when I help him this time around. It just sucks that I'm useless this year.
> 
> I get another x-ray on Friday. If it has healed enough, I get a restricted movement brace and start physical therapy. If not, another cursed partial cast for 3 more weeks.


In our area, a book called "Weeds of the Northwest" is pretty good ........ so I'd bet that your copy of the Northeast version will be very useful!

Best regards

Three 44s


----------



## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

Best thing I got was the least expensive. A hand held moisture meter. Dad always made dry hay, really dry, I always went the other way. A couple bales and I know if it's time to bale or sit in the shade with a drink.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Okay, y'all convinced me on the moisture meter. What moisture % should I be looking for, for dry horse hay? It'll be interesting to compare that number to what Dad does.


----------



## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Danderson said:


> Okay, y'all convinced me on the moisture meter. What moisture % should I be looking for, for dry horse hay? It'll be interesting to compare that number to what Dad does.


We try to bale between 12 and 15 %, depending on all of the variables. Anything over 16% steady we shut down. More often than not we can go along fine for a while and then we see a few strokes at 20 plus percent moisture. That is where we shut down.
The learning curve is significant with an in chamber tester when baling on the dew. Experience will teach you that you bale in a range rather than at a specific number. One windrow can change a lot as it relates moisture. Direction of travel, humidity, ground moisture etc.. all effect the reading. The hardest part, for me, was to combine my existing knowledge of haying with the numbers I was seeing on the tester. I spent a lot of time trying to make sense of it.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Danderson said:


> Okay, y'all convinced me on the moisture meter. What moisture % should I be looking for, for dry horse hay? It'll be interesting to compare that number to what Dad does.


Here I am very comfortable baling grass or alfalfa at or below 18%....I have never had the first problem doing so with either forage. Much depends on your brand of meter I suppose. I use a BHT-2 from Agratronix.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I have always considered going past 15% moisture to be in the needing preservative range with our alfalfa.

Above 20% moisture and you'll be needing to calibrate accordingly.

Three 44s


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Took a couple pictures the other day, but a visit to the doctor to remove my cast and put me in a brace delayed me.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Update:

We managed to get the front fields put up, so I thought that I'd post an update.

Most of the broadleaf (except the clover) vanished before we cut. The bad news is that it stuck around long enough to make the hay thin. The positive in all of this is that Dad is open to the idea of getting a sprayer and spraying for broadleaf/weeds.

The hay itself isn't terrible. It's a mix of wild grasses and rye grass. Not bad, but not ideal.

The tentative plan right now is to spray after second/final cutting. Then a couple weeks later to brush hog and overseed (broadcast) with orchard grass and timothy (we're thinking 3:1).

So I guess the question now is if that sounds like a good plan. If so, what sprayer do you recommend, and what to kill the broadleaf/weeds? Also, any fertilizer recommendations for the spring?

Since we're not thinking about alphalpha now, we'll probably go with a flail discbine when we find the other tractor.

On a personal note, I go to the doc next week. I'm anticipating clearance to start physical therapy, since my elbow seems more stable. It sounds like the MRI on my opposite shoulder wasn't clear, so I also have an appointment with another specialist to get the results of that. Dad, Mom, wife, son, and daughter are all doing well. The housewarming party had 30+ folks, and a good time was had by all. Now their house is being painted. As they stripped the paint, they found out that the siding was all cedar, as is the deck.

Thanks again everyone. I appreciate it! I'll let everyone know how the back fields go. I suspect they'll be worse, since they've been neglected for longer and are next to the creek / river.


----------



## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

Where, in MA, are you? I'm in NH, about a mile west of Nashua.


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Danderson said:


> Update:
> 
> So I guess the question now is if that sounds like a good plan. If so, what sprayer do you recommend, and what to kill the broadleaf/weeds? Also, any fertilizer recommendations for the spring?


Soil test, soil test, soil test, hate repeating myself, but IMHO it will be money well spent. It could theoretically 'save' you money. Wasted seed that does not grow, because of PH being too far off of optimum as a an example or poor soil type.

1 to 3 seed ratio, if it fit's YOUR area, attached is a USDA pub, regarding soil type, PH, etc., you may find of use.

Larry


----------



## zandstrafarms (May 1, 2015)

Very possible they may be some sort of brassica forage that over seeded.

We started with a,sickle bar cutter, 5 bar rake and a 1969 new Holland baler. Made good hay. Upgraded to jd haybine last year and cut off a day or 2. Added a tedder and my rained hay dried just fine.

Clover is a,curse. I'm replanting this fall and no plans for it. It dries too slowly and molds the bales. Spreads and takes over the fields plus it doesn't seem to help with nitrogen as I see no better quality in the grass near it.

If you don't want to restart your field, a good weed killer first then broadcast spread timothy *(or whatever, even foxtail would be good ) late in the fall after cutting field 3 inches. Cultipack over it. You'll have a good jump on next spring.

Husband did that as a test last year and it got super thick in the area he tested.


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Shetland, small world! When my wife and I first moved back, we almost bought a house in Tyngsboro. It fell through the day before closing (sellers' issue), so we ended up closer to Worcester. My folks' farm is over in Hampden (south of Springfield, next to CT).

R82230, excellent publication! Soil testing for ph was never a question. I have a tester, and use it on my lawn several times a year. I want to do a more thorough test however, and will probably need to get them from 4-5 pastures to start since they are so different from each other. We've been looking to see if there are local testers / programs. If not, we're left with the mail ones. I haven't used them for a while, so no idea what they cost nowadays. After we get that info, I'll discuss the in depth tests with Dad.

Zandstra, I'd never even heard of a cultipacker before your post. Thank goodness for Google. I'll add that to the rental wish list, if I find a place around here that rents. Hopefully I'll only need that and the broadcaster once. The sprayer I'll probably buy since we'll use that several times a year.

Dad and I talked about starting the fields over (his dad did that for their farm when Dad was still in single digits). He decided against it since, 1) he doesn't want to wait years for the hay to yearly fill in, 2) more equipment to rent, and 3) he has learned to like local wild grasses in his hay since when he raises horses, he has them out to pasture. He bought a horse many years ago now, from out of state. That thing refused to eat most of the local pasture grass. It'd only eat Timothy, OG, and grain. At a friend's suggestion, he started feeding it "lower quality hay", and after about 3 months he started eating the local wild grasses in the hay, which translated into the pasture the next year. I know it's a sample size of 1, but it took root in his mind. ;-)

Any suggestions for a good weed /broadleaf killer?


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

Update on me:

I did my first physical therapy yesterday. Mostly is was just getting my baselines recorded.

Went to the shoulder guy for the results on the MRI of my opposite shoulder. Small tear and abrasion of the rotator cuff and bursitis. I got a cortisone injection, and we'll see how I respond to that. Even if I need surgery, he won't do it until the elbow heals. If needed (which I doubt), he'll give me cortisone injections until then as needed.

Unrelated to my injury, Dad's 70ish year old homemade hay elevator (made by the old guy Dad bought his old farm off of about 20 years ago) isn't working well for his new barn. We even put the bottom on 2 bales of hay, and while it helped some, not enough. The teeth just won't keep gripping the hay.

So we purchased some new teeth-links to see if that improves it. I suspect it will. Depending on the results, we could either consider it fixed, buy more teeth, buy a new chain, or a whole new elevator.


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Danderson said:


> Any suggestions for a good weed /broadleaf killer?


What are you spraying, your hay field that has alfalfa & grass, a pasture that is being presently pastured, a lawn, etc.?

Larry


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

We'll be spraying our flat hay fields for weeds and broadleaf this fall. Then we'll overseed with OG and timothy (other than the weeds and broadleaf, it is currently rye grass and native wild grasses). Then next spring, we can start fertilizing.

We have about 20 acres in hay now. The rest will take some work, but we will not make all 40 hay. Ultimately we'll have some pastures and woods as well.


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I would look at using 2-4d. I might just spray now (to stop any present broad leave plants from going to seed) and spray again in the fall (to get the late germinating broad leave plants) in MY area. There most likely would still be a lot of un-germinated broad leave weed seeds just waiting for 'right' opportunity however.

Larry


----------



## Danderson (May 23, 2016)

I just heard back from the UMass Exrension. Here are the soil tests they offer.

Soil Test Descriptions & Fees
Routine Soil Analysis
Standard fertility test: $15.00
Includes pH, acidity, Modified Morgan extractable nutrients
(P, K, Ca, Mg, Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu, B), lead, and aluminum,
cation exchange capacity, and percent base saturation.
Recommendations for nutrient and pH adjustment are
included with results.

Optional Additional Soil Analysis
Soil organic matter: $6.00
Measurement of soil organic matter by loss on ignition at 360 C.
This measure is useful for evaluating soil quality and
nutrient supplying capacity. A measure of soil organic matter
is also required to determine the effective rate for certain
herbicides.

Soluble salts: $6.00
Measure of electrical conductivity of a 1:2 soil:water extract.
This test is used to determine if salinity levels are high
enough to limit plant growth. Sources of soluble salts in
Northeastern soils include fertilizers, animal manure,
compost, runoff from surfaces treated with de-icing salts, and
poor quality irrigation water.

Should we just get the standard test for $15 per sample, or are the others useful as well? Also they ask for a "crop code". If I do a 3:1 orchard grass : timothy over seeded on existing local grasses and rye grass (but naturally care about OG and timothy), which code should I use?

Orchard, Reed Canary, Tall Fescue, Ryegrass - Establishment
Orchard, Reed Canary, Tall Fescue, Rye grasses - Maintenance
Timothy & mixtures-Establishment
Timothy & mixtures-Maintenance

Thank you all again.


----------



## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

This being new land to you and your father I would spring for all the tests so you know what you have/or don't have. Thus establishing a baseline. It is knowledge and armed with knowledge you can do a lot. I understand your dad being "old school" and nah saying testing but some times you have do it any way, even the stubbornest of us will come around eventually lol


----------



## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Thorim said:


> This being new land to you and your father I would spring for all the tests so you know what you have/or don't have. Thus establishing a baseline. It is knowledge and armed with knowledge you can do a lot. I understand your dad being "old school" and nah saying testing but some times you have do it any way, even the stubbornest of us will come around eventually lol


Yup. my dad is about as old school as they come and asked me last year why I was throwing my money away for soil testing. He has never mentioned that he thought it was a good idea...but this spring, he was talking to one of my new custom baling customers. I finished mowing and the customer comes up to me and says "you dad says that it would be a good idea to get a soil sample to see what fertilizer I need".

I reckon the ol codger won't admit it to me that I had a good plan, but...

73, Mark


----------

