# WOW, what a time saver, I like the looks of this concept



## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

Wow, I just got my issue of Hay and Forage and saw this article in there, this would save so much time. Whats your thoughts on this.
Wheel Rake Operates Between Tractor And Baler | Harvesting content from Hay & Forage Grower


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I probably couldn't turn it in most of the fields I do.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

When I first saw the concept I was like you enthusiastic. About 10 years ago a machine shop in South Texas had one using a beefed up Vermeer Roll Bar V Rake.

I had noticed that the custom operators would bring in their rakes about noon, and after raking start rolling up hay. 
Not long after this I learned the magic of Relative Humidity. 
To save leaves, HERE in CenTex, we want to rake when the RH is above 90%, down next to the hay. This means raking during the early morning, first light. 
The same information had the idea that Round Baling of cured hay is best with a 65% Relative Humidity, down next to the hay. Here, many times this means starting baling around 11 am.

Translation, using that rig, HERE, you would be raking when the hay is dry enough to bale, and baling stems.

If your climate is one where the humidity never gets below 80% the machine might be a good compromise. Raking when the hay is a little too dry and baling when the hay is still a little too damp.

I have heard of people Round Baling in the 80% RH range, using a preservative.

The best deal I have heard of is the man's Wife rakes the hay early in the morning and he does the baling during lunch time. The Wife mentioned the key to good hay bales was in the raking. Then she observed that any idiot can stuff hay into a baler. He & I both smiled, and nodded our heads. If I had argued he would have beat me to a pulp. If he had argued that little lady would have given him an attitude adjustment.

Short answer,* it would not be worth the money, HERE*.

Is Gary Bates Still your Forage Specialest?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If you want to leave all those pesky leaves in the field and just bale alfalfa stems it would work great. Several of our members have also stated some grasses shatter even worse than alfalfa, again nothing but stems. IT'd work great if you were baling nothing but silage bales.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Wilson, if you would allow me... without being presumptous.... yes Dr.Gary Bates is still our Forage specialist over at our jock college; the University of Tennessee. He really is a fine fella, always helpful, and really humble for a university type ;0). He has been giving me some advice on my first attempt at spring planted alfalfa and I heard him speak recently at a forage meeting sponsored by Byron Seed.

Regards, Mike


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## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

I grow Bermuda grass, not alfalfa, I could see it working great for me, if it was a smaller rake, say a 6 to 8 wheel, anything bigger and the wind rows would be huge.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

MorganT69 said:


> I grow Bermuda grass, not alfalfa, I could see it working great for me, if it was a smaller rake, say a 6 to 8 wheel, anything bigger and the wind rows would be huge.


I think haywilson has stated in the past bermuda can and does shatter just like alfalfa.


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

mlappin said:


> I think haywilson has stated in the past bermuda can and does shatter just like alfalfa.


And I'll agree with that 100%. Maybe even more so, but then again, I have no experience with alfalfa.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Interesting perspectives. 
I was more or less raised on alfalfa, & did not have anything to do with bermudagrass until my 40's. 
I had a number of misconceptions to over come. 
I learned that Coastal bermudagrass will out yield alfalfa for tonnage. 
Bermudagrass is 60 - 70% leaves so have more leaves to shed. With just a little mismanagement I can bale mostly stems for both alfalfa or bermudagrass. Thing is the bermudagrass stems will look reasonable good while alfalfa will look and feel like a bunch of green colored sticks. 
Bermudagrass just loves nitrogen, while alfalfa does not require any. BUT alfalfa has to be replanted every 4 to 6 years. The bermudagrass has been in for over 40 years. Result is both have close to the same break even price.

In the bale bermudagrass sheds leaves still, while alfalfa has only a mild leaf loss, in the barn. Done correctly bermudagrass 6 weeks between cutting will make 12% CP hay. The Local Cow College statistics say 6 week harvesting is at best 8% CP. 
I contend that the many Texas hay people leave money in the field with their management style

I prefer baling alfalfa, because I think it is easier. That is a minority opinion. Alfalfa is a more stable hay, in the bale, Bermudagrass tends to shift after baling. They are more prone to have a stack shift and fall than alfalfa. 
In the shade of the barn bermudagrass is a perfect place for a short snooze. I have done that waiting for a customer to arrive. Alfalfa is not near as comfortable.

The use of Humidity is real close to being a universal truth for baling hay.

Gary Bates & I were AFGC directors during the same time frame.


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## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

Are you saying that you rake with the dew still on the hay? If I started baling at 11am some of my wind rows would still have dew on them, how do you avoid mold. I would love to start earlier in the morning. Please enlighten me, I am always open to learn.
Thanks in advance.



hay wilson in TX said:


> When I first saw the concept I was like you enthusiastic. About 10 years ago a machine shop in South Texas had one using a beefed up Vermeer Roll Bar V Rake.
> 
> I had noticed that the custom operators would bring in their rakes about noon, and after raking start rolling up hay.
> Not long after this I learned the magic of Relative Humidity.
> ...


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Great idea for the big guy that maybe needed some dew on the hay to get it to pick up in the roller. I have a small operation and usually roll my hay over one final time before bailing and I bale after 10 and stop around 2-3. Works for me. Sudan/sorghum was the crop. This year I am going with Pearl Millet and we'll see how it works, plus I will cut and rake and hire a roller. Hope he is responsive to my schedule. Don't want to have to buy a roller to do my place.

MarK


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## Lazy J (Jul 18, 2008)

On paper this looks like a no brainger, much like coupleing a reaper and a thresher. However in this case it is not practical for the production of high quality hay. For an example of what will happen with this system just go out to your fields this summer and rake right in front of the baler tractor. The you will see the cloud of dust from the shattered leaves and the trail of lost leaves on the ground where your windrow was.

I have stated this for years and will continue to: The hay rake MAKES the bale! If you can't rake hay you can't make hay, simple as that.

Jim


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## sedurbin (May 30, 2009)

> I have stated this for years and will continue to: The hay rake MAKES the bale! If you can't rake hay you can't make hay, simple as that.


+1 Could not agree more.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm obviously in the extreme minority here. Of course this is in my climate nw side Houston. Only one time have we EVER baled stems was in 2010 middle of Sept with a dry front. It was obvious in the square bale but the hay sold the same it was only 1000 bales or so. Now thats not the way to do it but had to much still ahead to do. Now I have tried yalls method just because I like to try new concepts, raking early. It just doesn't work here 95% of the time. The hay usually always has to lay on the ground til noon or it wont be dry. 
In the end its all about the weather, so many variables go into making hay that it wont be perfect every time. For example, what time of day did u cut your hay, was it sunny or overcast, does the ground have a lot of moisture in it... Yall know what I mean. And its mostly stuff that we dont have any control over. Go with what works best for you and dont worry about the rest. Although it would be fun to try in some yalls regions just for the experience.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Yea, Baling at night and into the next morning is fun, especially after you have worked all day!


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

Yeah nevermind Ndva hayman, im just gonna stay down here in Texas. LOL


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Do you quit baling mid afternoon to avoid the early onset of dew?


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## Thad (Nov 29, 2011)

I am with u jdhayboy. I'm in south Arkansas here u can start at about 11:30 or 12:00 and I stop when the dust starts to hang.


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## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

Im just outside of Memphis, TN were we stay at a 85 to 95% humidity in the summer, usually around 100 degrees in July with a heat index of around 110 to 115 just because of the humidity I cant start raking until almost noon as my hay still has the dew on it from the night before up till noon. We have dew as heavy as rain around here. I have cut hay and started at noon, it hasn't rained in two weeks and water is flying in the air just from the dew, so My problem doesn't seem to be the same as most everybody else. When I cut my Bermuda it usually takes 2 to 3 days of using the tedder just to get my moisture in the proper range to bale, and when I bale I will bale up until 30 minutes before dark. I have never had a problem with my hay, yes I do loose some leaves but its not a major loss. So Im open to suggestions.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Yeah, I hear you Morgan. Alot of folks are plagued with leaf shatter in certain areas, but that is the very least of my problems when baling hay on this end of the state also. My number one enemy is moisture....either by rain or by humidity. If it did not get hotter than hades here, I could not bale hay without mold. Sometimes, our responses on this site reflect what we are baling. What I mean is, I have seen where a individual asks a grass hay question and someone else gives a alfalfa hay response because that is what everyone grows in his area and he is not really thinking otherwise and vice versa. But, its all good.

Regards, Mike


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

Vol let me first say i think there is a lot of knowledge that can be mined on this site. but it's not just alfalfa vs hay it's area against area. that is my only problem with advice on this site. if you have an idea of what your doing you can filter the info coming at you. on the other hand if you are just starting and have little knowledge then i feel this can be info overload. i have learned things on this site but have also looked at posts and said to myself maybe in nebraska but not here. that is the real problem. what you do for timothy hay will very from area to area and soil to soil. when we post we think about what is a cast in stone rule where we are, but can be complete opposite some where else. gary


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

They are raise both alfalfa and bermudagrass in the Low California Desert and for them the baling challenges are the same.

The growing of alfalfa appears to be increasing in Southern Georgia, and they are finding their challenges are much the same for both bermudagrass and alfalfa.

The challenges for California and Georgia appear to be different, but if we stop to consider the basics they are very similar. *The effect of the humidity is basically the same. *
With the humidity above 90% (down by the windrow) the hay will be no lower than 40% moisture.

With 70% humidity the hay will be no lower than 18% or 20% Moisture.

With 65% humidity the hay will be no lower than 16% or 18% Moisture.

For the day shift when the humidity goes through 55% or 50% leaf shatter becomes excessive.

(For this to work the hay MUST be fully cured.)

For the *night shift*, the leaves will start to rehydrate at 55% RH. By 60% or 65% hay can be baled with acceptable leaf shatter.

_HERE I must rake at first light, hopefully with a light surface dew. Start raking at 7 AM and I MUST be finished raking by 9 AM.

Thanks to the USAF I got to see what heavy dew looks like. Some dew will register in a Weather Service rain gage ! ! 
Also got to see what a really dry climate looks like._

In some climates the hay MUST be raked ASAP after dropping the hay in a windrow. 
Two reasons. 
Soon the hay will be too dry to rake, and if you do not rake now too many leaves will be lost in raking. 
Fluff up a dry windrow and the wind will blow the hay to the nearest fence line. 
We are talking about day time humidity less than 20% & Night time humidity at best 60%!

*We all holding the same stick, but some are on one end and others are on the other end while most are someplace in betwe*en.

Have a Grand & Glorious Season


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## Will 400m (Aug 1, 2011)

Thats all asuming your doing alfalfa or some leafy type hay. If your doing grassy hay the dryness scales are still close im sure but if it gets over dry it looses some of it's feed value and most of all it's color but you can still rake it up into a windrow and get it into a bale not like alfalfa where there's all those leaves left if it's too dry.


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

Its interesting to read all of these arguments about this stuff. Interesting to hear different people's view points. I know that this rake wouldnt work for me right off the bat in late May early June because the grass/alfalfa has more moisture in it at that time and we usually have to rake it and just it sit for awhile before we can bale it. Once July 1 hits, (for the most part) except for alfalfa I could rake and bale at the same time. Thats how we do it. I give my dad a hard start and I'm right behind him baling. Now if I could rake and bale at the same time while he is moving hay. Holy Smokes! We could move very quickly. With alfalfa we couldnt do that. It will take longer to dry after its raked. But I think different tools for different fools. This guy could use it, another guy might not be able to. I think a lot of time (as someone else mentioned I believe about the leave loss factor) there is to much emphasis put on that. I really dont care much about leaf loss in my cattle hay. All I care about is getting it baled and moved. Now I dont want it straw dry or anything but if I'm losing a little leaf it doesnt bother me. I'm prob racing against an afternoon pop up thunderstorm any way. Square bales, I do care. I dont think I could handle running that rake, a square baler, and a hoelscher at the same time. Seems like a recipe for disaster! But even at the piece of $15,000+ for that rake. I couldnt justify that kind of money. I can buy a 10 wheel V rake for less than 10k. With the little tractor I run for raking, I think it would die before I would hit the 5k mark in fuel.


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