# Super conditioning rolls



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Anybody use any of the products from CircleCEquipment? They can also take your current rolls and recover them to their specs, as seen here.

Every mower I've owned so far, when setting roll gap we take out shims or adjust them closer together until we find a spot where they touch then back it off until they just barely clear. Problem with that is then when turning the rolls by hand and examining the whole length of the rolls, a person can always find places where the gap is larger than I'd like to see.

If these were everything that they claim, I'm wondering if I can skip tedding the hay under normal conditions. Save some fuel and time and some wear and tear on a tractor and the tedder.


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

Super conditioning rolls break the stems up well so it really helps with the first part of drying alfalfa. However the leaves need to dry down too and a super conditioner isn't going to helps the leaves dry faster.

You may be able to avoid tedding you could lay the hay down really wide (<70% cut width) and then flip the swath over with a merger or inverter. However this works best for silage making (65% moisture) and most guys would have to ted or rake at least once to get done to 12-20% moisture for hay making.

Even in wide swathes you need to get the leaves that are underneath exposed to the sun for a little bit. When you do ted the hay try to do it when there's some dew or at least 80-85 % humidity so you don't lose as much leaves--that's a recommendation from Hay Wilson in TX and that man has made hay for decades.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yeah, have about thirty years of making hay myself.

Was just wondering if they did enough of a better job to justify the cost over 200 acres is all. If I can skip the tedding, I could be mowing instead, and the time saved tedding would also insure that I would always be able to rake at the right time as well. I'm doing those two hundred acres by myself so time is always at a premium.

I'm also thinking the airbags wouldn't be required if the rollers were true enough that a very small gap could be maintained the whole length and circumference of the rollers.

Process now is to mow in the morning, ted it the first thing the next morning and usually am able to run the v wheel rake over it any where from 2-4 oclock then and get it baled the same day.
Thats during good drying weather though, later in the year I'll probaly still have to ted it regardless of how its conditioned.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

I have wondered about more agressive rollers myself, Here are some others guys that have a good reputation and build agressive rollers... B&D Rollers 
They may be worth considering if thinking about rollers. I agree, that if agressive rollers will speed up drying and you could skip tedding, it would save fuel, another trip over the soil...so compaction would be lessened, and you could spend that time cutting or preparing to rake. I am sure a tedder would still have a valuable place, especially during really wet times, but during certain times of year I would think the rollers would maybe enough and the overall savings in money and time would be a good thing. I will play with some math and see what kind of equation would solve that part. I guess the real question is how have they worked for folks, Has anyone on the site used custom rollers? Have you been able to cut out tedding some or all together? What was your experience?


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I really don't think you'll be able to skip tedding and be able to make hay in the 2 days you described. 3 days yes, but with dry ground around here I can do that anyway. To me tedding is like an insurance policy - I know it's going to be as dry as possible before I rake it, and in many cases it's almost dry enough to bale when it does get raked. But I don't like to have any suprises in the shed when it's time to load or sell hay.

Rodney


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## deerrunhaycp (Oct 17, 2008)

We had a set of circle c's first design. The diamond pattern. I was not overly impressed at all. We still tedded, maybe a little bit earler. Around here it's easy to get the hay down to 30%, you can pretty much do that without conditioning. The problem is getting that last 12-15 % out. I really didn't see any decrease in time. They have since redesigned and lowered the cost. I've heard the new pattern is better, but i'm leary to try it now. It's easy to make an extra pass with the tedder, and it really doesn't burn that much fuel. Like Rodney said it's an insurance policy, the last think you need is to load hay out of a stack and find bad spot from baling wet slugs.

The air bags are what creates the pressure for the rolls, they will not crimp at all with out them.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Strange, the crusher from B&D looks the same as the ones from CircleC unless of course you watch the Youtube video and it shows the ones with the diamond tread pattern which is what i read about in a magazine several years ago.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

deerrunhaycp said:


> The air bags are what creates the pressure for the rolls, they will not crimp at all with out them.


Why wouldn't the OEM design work for pressure?

I'm already making hay in two days during good drying weather. What I was wondering is if better rollers would eliminate the tedding and still allow me too make it the second day? If the newer design crimps as well as they claim, I would think the biggest improvement would be seen when the weather is not so favorable.


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## deerrunhaycp (Oct 17, 2008)

They want to be able to charge more money for it.

To install the set that we had, you had to rip anything that had anything to do with the old rolls, cut holes, and mount the brackets for the bags. I really like the bags though, made change the pressure easy.


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## Hayguy (Jun 4, 2008)

I have a neighbor who owns an Agland macerator. This machine has a set of rubber chevron rolls followed by a set of 2 corrugated steel rolls which turn at different speeds. Both sets of rolls use air bags to control the pressure and it makes it really easy to adjust. It's a pretty aggressive conditioning setup and a real challenge to try and save as many alfalfa leaves as possible. He uses a tedder following the macerator , and again the next morning before raking if the ground was wet. It may sound like a lot of extra trips over the field, but last year he got all his hay in the barn within 48 hrs of the time it was cut.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Even with the air bags, a person would still have to stop, get out of the cab and look at the stems before deciding if more or less pressure was needed. To me at least the single crank on the 499 and on the 1431 that I replaced the 499 with beats the old 495 with two cranks hands down.

The other thing I'm looking at with keeping the OEM tension system is I tend to trade up often enough that if the rolls worked as well as advertised I would pull the custom rolls out and swap em with the newer one before it left the farm. Not so easy to do if a bunch of holes had to be cut in the machine to use the airbag setup.


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## Hayboy1 (Jul 19, 2008)

I spoke to a couple of gentlemen last year at Empire Farm Days who run Circle C rolls in their 15' Sp Hesston. They said they would never go back to regular rolls. I contemplated using them as well, but when I saw the cost I made my decision. I am sure they work great, but for the $10k, I will ted it twice.
I know I am not solving any mysteries here, but what works for us in the very humid, and wet, northeast is this. We mow whenever it is convenient with a 1431 with chevron rolls cranked pretty tight. I also mow with the back flap down to get as wide a swath as possible, plus it seems to help crack the stems a little better as well when it hits that metal flap. I realize I run a little bit of hay over but I have decided its worth the extra dry time. I also ted immediately after mowing with a Pequea TT4000 (18' 2" width). By tedding right after mowing, it seems to have a better spread pattern than when it is drier. iof the hay is real heavy, I will ted again the following morning, then rake if it is ready, with 2 NH side deliveries carried by a hydraulic bridge hitch. I realize you are trying to eliminate tedding, but I know here, that is certainly not an option. I honestly think that the tedder is a crucial tool in the haymaking process, especially if you are in the horse hay business. I know I panicked last year when our tedder went down.
As far as the macerator goes, they say you can make hay a lot quicker with one, but again, for $26k, you can ted a lot of hay. The macerator does just that, it will macerate and soften the hay imensely. But if you do not get the hay up in time, you are going to have a heck of a time with it after because the stems act as a sponge and actually absorb the moisture or rain. On top of that even a heavy dew will discolor the hay a lot as well. I have used the old NH 404 crushers for years and have had great luck with them, but they are no longer viable with the bigger equipment we now run.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I have the Circle C system, and it will do everything they claim. I also run the B&D rollers in two other machines and they work good too. The air bags are better for changing roll pressure though. Still can't make good hay here with rain all the time and high humidity this year.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

IAhaymakr said:


> I have the Circle C system, and it will do everything they claim. I also run the B&D rollers in two other machines and they work good too. The air bags are better for changing roll pressure though. Still can't make good hay here with rain all the time and high humidity this year.


Do you have the Circle C rollers with the diamond pattern or the ones that look fluted?

Far as cost, I see Circle C has a special where they use your old rollers, strip the rubber off, and apply their own then machine and balance for $2500.

Considering I paid a little over 5000 for my tedder used and had over 5000 in my applicator, if for 2500 it works as advertised, it almost seems a bargain. I'm thinking in good drying weather not so much, but when the weather is less than ideal, the extra crimping might make the difference when even tedding repeatedly jsut won't quite get it dry.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

We have had the B&D rolls on a 926 deere for 3 years on 4-500 acres a year. I have them set tight, complete contact end to end, with moderate tension from the stock springs. 
I don't think the air bags are necessary on small machines like mine. They resufaced my origional rolls and straightend one for $2500 + freight. Dan of B&D says the ridges on his are higher than circle c's and this helps with feeding. He also claims the rubber compound he uses is better and stands up to abrasive conditions better. I don't know if all of this is true but we have never had feeding issues and when you feed something through that should have been in a scrap pile instead of a hay field you get a slit as opposed to a missing chunk of material.

The crop is conditioned better than the stock deere rolls, but they are the worst on the market. It does dry quicker, but we still ted sometime twice if the weather is challenging. You can overcondition and loose leaves or crush stems of tender hay into seperate pieces with too much pressure. A limp well conitioned stem will mat to the ground quicker. The experts say they will regain more moisture in rain or dew but if it drys quicker I guess that is a wash.

We tried a macerator a few years ago. It helped but it took a lot of time and a lot of power and left a lot of pieces.

I would buy the rolls again, but I would rather have three solid days of sunshine and low humidty!


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

Had a farmer try the new Heston/agco/challenger quad rollers this year. He said it shaved at least a day off his drying time. He said it crimped the stems every 1.5 inches. Sounds very good.
We tried teh macerater several years ago. Very agressive, did an exceptional job. Was way too small for our operation adn plugged constantly. Took 1-5 hours to unplug. Sold it very quickly!
Have been told that the recon conditioners work very well as well, but we haven''t bought one. 
We too use a tedder a lot!
We currently use a flail conditioner, and overall, I would have to say we are very unimpressed with it.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

SVFHAY said:


> They resufaced my origional rolls and straightend one for $2500 + freight. Dan of B&D says the ridges on his are higher than circle c's and this helps with feeding. He also claims the rubber compound he uses is better and stands up to abrasive conditions better. !


That's neither here nor there to be honest as I'm sure Circle C says the same about there rollers compared to B&D's.

If I go this route, I'll do some more research, talk to as many people as possible, pull up a BBB report on each and so on. At the moment it sounds like B&D might be the way to go as they specialize in making rolls for all kinds of differant applications. If I want a new tractor to bale with, I'm not going to go to a dealer that strictly handles lawn and garden stuff. If making rollers is B&D's bread and butter, I would tend to think they would have the experience to make a excellent product. I'm not saying Circle C doesn't either, I just like to deal with people that specialize in one thing and do it very well.


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

Prod Acres-I'm guessing you're cutting mostly alfalfa with the flail conditioner. The Europeans use them all the time in their grass fields, but like you've said not many alfalfa growers have not had much luck with them.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

500 alfalfa/orchard, 1100 grass 
problem with flail is variability of hay from one side of the field to the next and from one field to the next and from one type of hay to the next. Very few operators will get out and adjust the back board on the flail every 30 minutes as conditions warrant.
we will most definitely be buying a conditioning roll in the future and going away from the flails.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've heard that about flails as well. If a person checks then constantly and adjusts accordingly, they do a very good job of conditioning alfalfa. If a person doesn't do the above, they either don't condition it enough, or strip just about every leaf right off the plant.

One of the salesman in the area claims if adjusted properly, a flail will out condition rolls and will lose less leaves than rolls as well. I haven't actually bought anything from him in years now as I think he's 10 pounds of bullshit in a five pound bag.


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

I bought one with the impellar conditioner once and sold it at the end of the year, will never own one again. I cut mostly alfalfa hay.
THOMAS


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

I have has the same experience as Upnorth. Stem moisture is no longer the problem....it's the leaves, therefore, I don't think you can eliminate tedding.

This year we swathed with a Hesston discbine 15' head and its' 4 steel conditioning rolls. Then, immediately behind the discbine we used the Agland Macerator with the tedder attachment. The hay has now been through 4 sets of conditioning rolls and tedded.

Next morning as soon as possible, while the dew is still on, we tedd again to get it off the ground (it matts down overnight) and to expose the leaves in the bottom of the windrow. Next day (3rd day) we can V-rake and bale. Under ideal conditions we can maybe bale it at the end of the second day with some acid, but that's pushing it.

We tried skipping the tedding on day 2 and go straight to the V-rake, but the V-rake leaves the middle of the windrow untouched....and wet on the bottom. Tedding on day 2 gets the hay out of the mud (discbine cuts too low, but that's another problem)

This works. We did over 1500 acres of 1st cut in the northeast and only ~ 200 acres saw any rain at all. But the Macerator costs ~$25,000+ and ties up a man for 15 acres an hour. Plus a tractor and fuel. Unfortunately there is no choice that I know of if you want hay without rain damage.

I would like to try the super conditioning rolls but it's a bit of a gamble to retrofit our only haybine. If something gets screwed up we are without a haybine until it gets fixed.


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

Prod Acres. Do you think you'll be able to get the conditioning rolls close enough to crush the grass stems in the spring on that first cut without plugging things up? Also up here in the midwest the second, third, etc. cuttings of most of our cool season grasses (tall fescue, meadow fescue, late maturing orchardgrass, etc.) are mostly leaves. I'm don't think conditioning would help us, but if you have a lot of stem growth down their in TN on your grasses then think conditioning could help you.

It's too bad that flail impeller can't adjust on the go for changing conditions. I know the dairyman are starting to get harvesters for their corn silage that make adjustments for moisture content and process the plants differently. I suppose the technology necessary wouldn't pay for itself.

One more thing with your 1100 grass acres, are they mixes or pure stands? I would think there would be less variablity in a pure grass stand or a stand with species that had similar growing patterns, but what's your experience been? Do you have fields that vary a lot throughout with the drainage and soil type?--We have a lot of glacial soils here in WI and that seems to contribute to the uneveness some.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

Production Acres said:


> Had a farmer try the new Heston/agco/challenger quad rollers this year. He said it shaved at least a day off his drying time.


I agree with that.



Production Acres said:


> He said it crimped the stems every 1.5 inches.


 I don't know if we're seeing crimps every 1.5" with ours.....but 2.5" yes.



Production Acres said:


> We tried the macerater several years ago. Very agressive, did an exceptional job. Was way too small for our operation adn plugged constantly. Took 1-5 hours to unplug. Sold it very quickly!


Funny. We tried one a few years ago as well. It also plugged and that was the end of that demo. Fast fwd to 2009. We tried it again, this time the rep came to instruct us. We Macerated almost everything this year. Very little plugging. Maybe 3-5 times over ~1000 acres. Takes ~ 15 minutes to unplug.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

UpNorth said:


> Prod Acres. Do you think you'll be able to get the conditioning rolls close enough to crush the grass stems in the spring on that first cut without plugging things up?


I would like to think that would not be a problem.



> Also up here in the midwest the second, third, etc. cuttings of most of our cool season grasses (tall fescue, meadow fescue, late maturing orchardgrass, etc.) are mostly leaves. I'm don't think conditioning would help us, but if you have a lot of stem growth down their in TN on your grasses then think conditioning could help you.


I have never cut any hay without a conditioner, so I don't know what dry down effect different conditioning systems have on 2nd cutting grass hays. Just haven't thought a lot about it. On the alfalfa mixes, a roller would have to be an improvement over the impeller.



> It's too bad that flail impeller can't adjust on the go for changing conditions. I know the dairyman are starting to get harvesters for their corn silage that make adjustments for moisture content and process the plants differently. I suppose the technology necessary wouldn't pay for itself.


I haven't thought about it too hard, but there is really no reason one could not mount a hydraulic cylinder on the adjustment mechanism and rig some sort of electric/hydraulic switch on it to fix the adjustment. It could be done.



> One more thing with your 1100 grass acres, are they mixes or pure stands? I would think there would be less variablity in a pure grass stand or a stand with species that had similar growing patterns, but what's your experience been? Do you have fields that vary a lot throughout with the drainage and soil type?--We have a lot of glacial soils here in WI and that seems to contribute to the uneveness some.


75 acres is our largest field here and in one day we might be in 5-7 different fields with different hay types, fertility, etc. So everything is constantly changing.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

> Funny. We tried one a few years ago as well. It also plugged and that was the end of that demo. Fast fwd to 2009. We tried it again, this time the rep came to instruct us. We Macerated almost everything this year. Very little plugging. Maybe 3-5 times over ~1000 acres. Takes ~ 15 minutes to unplug


Have they improved the distance the rolls seperate when you lift the machine up? We also had a large problem with wax buildup on the back rollers. Have they done something to stop that problem? With the machine we owned, the factory talked like the largest windrow they wanted to go thru the machine was 9-12 ft. At the time we were mowing with a 15' jd swather. It looks like your machine is a 15' discbine? The worst plugs we had were baby deer - Absolutly a mess!!!!!!!!!


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## Blue Duck (Jun 4, 2009)

I used a Macerater demo unit a couple years ago on some sudan grass that was very tall and thick on 70ac. The Macerater never plugged and did a great job helping the grass dry down. If I grew more sudan grass and could afford one I would buy one.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

Production Acres said:


> Have they improved the distance the rolls seperate when you lift the machine up?


I wasn't around when they tried it the first time a few years ago but I'm told it's the same serial number so I doubt if anything has changed. To unplug, we just raise the machine up, let all the air out of the airbags, pull the worst clumps out, then turn the PTO on.



Production Acres said:


> We also had a large problem with wax buildup on the back rollers. Have they done something to stop that problem?


If you macerate while the hay is wet there is no wax. The wax only accumulates if you're macerating directly behind the haybine for several hours. When you start again at first light the next day, the dew washes it all off in a matter of minutes. Can't say we had a problem with wax.



Production Acres said:


> With the machine we owned, the factory talked like the largest windrow they wanted to go thru the machine was 9-12 ft. At the time we were mowing with a 15' jd swather. It looks like your machine is a 15' discbine?


Yes, we have the Hesston with the 4 steel crimper rollers. You can't macerate a swath that is larger than the header. After it gets tedded by the macerator however, the field is a carpet of hay.



Production Acres said:


> The worst plugs we had were baby deer - Absolutly a mess!!!!!!!!!


How did that happen? Did the guy in the haybine not know he left a dead dear in the windrow? Worst we had this year was a turkey, but the macerator operator saw it in the windrow before he ran it through.

Right now we aren't using it for 2nd & 3rd cut. Some folks here think it reduced yield too much on a 30 acre stand of 2nd cut alfalfa. Personally, I think the culprit was the rotary rake that we were testing at the same time. I know all of our 2nd and 3rd cut has been rained on since we stopped using it. Didn't have any 1st cut get wet.


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## jstrohfus (Nov 16, 2009)

That sounds like an awful beat down on the leafs though with all of that activity! Can you comment on leaf loss? Thanks.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Seen someone asked a similar question to this thread so /bump


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

downtownjr said:


> I have wondered about more agressive rollers myself, Here are some others guys that have a good reputation and build agressive rollers... B&D Rollers


Anyone hear anything about BDrollers? I was going to check with them and see how their costs compared to Circle C's. But their web page will not come up.


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## downtownjr (Apr 8, 2008)

To contact B and D Rollers...

Danny Ostrander
B&D Rollers
800-832-1135

I sent him an e-mail as well since he has an ad on the site.


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