# A Few Hay Quality - Technique Questions



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Timing the cut. I've got a few customers that have horses which are insulin resistant. They want good hay, but something that won't aggrivate the situation. I've read that hay cut in the late afternoon/early evening is when the hay's sugar content is highest; lowest in the morning. Is the difference between the two insignificant or can one measurably lower the overall sugar content in grass hay by cutting it first thing in the morning and still get decent forage analysis results?

Weather and timing: You've got 4 days to get your grass hay up. Day 1 is on/off rain. Day 2 clears and day 3 and 4 are good baling days. With your disk mower conditioner, are you mowing on day 1 ? What price does one pay in dry down (not nutrient quality) by cutting after a rain or early morning with ultra heavy dew? Are still you looking at 3 day hay or 4 day hay? Right, wrong or indifferent, my horse customers seem to like "green" hay. Longer wait = less "green"...

Alfalfa and rain: I read so much about leaf loss when raking or baling alfalfa. Some need to rake or bale after dark or with the dew to retain the leaves. What about leaf loss when cutting and conditioning? Are you cutting with the dew? Is it better to cut with the rain? Any advantage to cutting damp or wet alfalfa from a leaf loss standpoint?

Flails/impellers, grass hay, rain and dew. You've got your flail/impeller mower conditioner set, it's doing it's job scuffing and rubbing the wax off the stems vs a crimp every few inches with a roller. You've probably walked the machine up to the line where anymore conditioning and you're macerating the hay. Then it rains that evening. How does flail/impeller conditioned hay, early in the cut, retain nutrients? I use the tea bag anology. When the hay is still green and it gets rain, not much is lost, but when it's dry, you've got tea leaves and the nutrients easily wash out - just like tea in a bag washed in water. Maybe green hay is just that regardless of the conditioner. Flails/impellers, first day rain and stem wax removal do they mix? If cutting after a rain or in heavy dew, does the slickeryness of the rain reduce the flail/impeller effect and require more time to dry down?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

That's a lot of ? But I'll address one.....I think one can dictate the sugar content to a small degree by cutting early, perhaps first light or night. How much impact would have to be done with scientific experiments and I'm sure they've done them here at UGA as I've read them somewhere, just not sure where right now....
In regards to the question about the baling window....I'm cuttin on day one with the conditioner set "least aggressive" and tedding as soon as the dew dries on day two...tedding again on day three at same time. Bermuda grass hay.....2tpa Tift 85 may not make it...


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> Alfalfa and rain: I read so much about leaf loss when raking or baling alfalfa. Some need to rake or bale after dark or with the dew to retain the leaves. What about leaf loss when cutting and conditioning? Are you cutting with the dew? Is it better to cut with the rain? Any advantage to cutting damp or wet alfalfa from a leaf loss standpoint?


You read about leaf loss during raking an baling because that is when the plant has dried down and leaves become brittle. Leaf loss during cut is not generally an issue because the plant itself still has plenty of internal moisture.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Any of the low sugar hay I produce has been a late mature cutting.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

I too have 1 customer that has a 35 year old hay burner that requires low sugar hay.. she actually comes to the barn and takes core samples to have analyzed. Mature hay or late cutting is what she got. Everyone else wants the sweetest of first cut.. only the split hoof folks want the green second cut!
I make most all second cut for my beef, when my barn is full then I will put the rest in the big building to sell. And last year I didnt get squat for second cut because of drout..


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Horses are tough. They generally eat grasses that are 7% CP and thrive on it. They are a superb example of engineering like something I could only dream of building.

In my experience, there are more opinions than there are facts, especially among horse owners. It seems that a "theory" goes around a stable or saddle club about a topic such as insulin resistance and everybody jumps on it--"My horse CAN ONLY HAVE _______" (fill in the blank with whatever nonsense you want).

The fact of the matter, IMHO, is that people want praise, recognition, and material things. By stating some kind of special need, such as insulin resistance or, with children, peanut allergies, they are trying to stand out and get a special form of recognition. And often, they will go to extreme lengths to get that recognition, like having the hay tested before buying it.

My solution: Ask them what they are looking for, then give it to them. Any disagreement will only cause them to get more entrenched in their belief. Or, try to educate them, which isn't easy.

Otherwise, you drive yourself nuts trying to jump through everybody's hoops.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Sounds as if you done done some business with them folks Ralph


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

somedevildawg said:


> Sounds as if you done done some business with them folks Ralph


I have. And I've been involved with horses personally for 35 years. I've tried to make a study of hay production and horses for much of my life. (But, that's only my opinion.)

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Boy you nailed it there with that post Ralph....it does seem like many of the women horsers want recognition. That is the primary reason I just sell commercially anymore....I just don't want the hassle of dealing with the public and their extremes. It requires a much more consistent and "perfect" product for commercial sales, but I can handle that better than the whining.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree.....I've had them every year call and want "low sugar" hay....told em we don't add sugar, we use Splenda now. One lady looked at me like "really"....I didn't have the heart to tell her any differently after my "little white lie" ..lol they can be something else to deal with...but they don't mind spending daddy's money


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

I've made low sugar hay cutting in the late afternoon, and high sugar hay cutting in the morning. Same grass type, one year versus the next. So, I just try to make the best hay I can, cut as close to the optimum stage of maturity as weather will allow. There are plenty of people making over mature hay for the folks that don't want mine to get some.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I sure hope these same people who want low sugar product for their critters (horses or otherwise), keep their critters out of the pastures from late afternoon until almost sunset too!! 

The sugar process happens in all grass/alfalfa plants is my understanding anyhow. But then again, the customer is always right (rule #1).

Larry


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I'll address cutting alfalfa with regard to leaf loss. I don't think it matters when you cut at all. With dew or without. I would rather just not have dew because it will dry faster without.

Also I had a peanut allergy when I was a kid and I hate the smell and taste of them or if they are in anything for example cookies. Please give me recognition for having to deal with this my whole life. And no I don't feel I'm missing out not having ever enjoyed Reese's Pieces.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> .
> 
> The fact of the matter, IMHO, is that people want praise, recognition, and material things. By stating some kind of special need, such as insulin resistance or, with children, peanut allergies, they are trying to stand out and get a special form of recognition. And often, they will go to extreme lengths to get that recognition, like having the hay tested before buying it.
> 
> Ralph


I have a couple people that every year come test my hay before buying. They send the samples away to somewhere and it takes 10 days to get results back. Then they call saying it is ok can they buy some. Sorry it's now sold. This happens every year. One guy has managed to buy just 5 bales, but other then that he has missed out buying my hay because of his testing thing. Or there is the guy that visited last summer claiming he would only buy hay from a farmer if he had only been growing hay in the field for less then 5 years. Anything more established then that wasn't good hay. I put his name in my phone as a do not answer his call.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

With the way the weather is and trying to make dry hay I wouldn't plan on "timing" anything. Get the weather make the hay the best you can. 2 of my newest customers are here because of the quality. I make the hay like I have to use it to make milk and need the best. If a customer thinks it's to rich there are plenty of weeds that other people are selling and that is one of the reasons that I have returning customers that are coming here instead of walking across to their neighbors to get hay.

I will mow in the evening if they are predicting rain that night but the several days are good. Will mow in the morning in the rain if they are predicting good weather.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Teslan said:


> Also I had a peanut allergy when I was a kid and I hate the smell and taste of them or if they are in anything for example cookies. Please give me recognition for having to deal with this my whole life. And no I don't feel I'm missing out not having ever enjoyed Reese's Pieces.


I apologize. There are legit reactions to everything. I was thinking of one person I know whose kids are allergic to everything including peanuts and bee stings. The smile she has on her face when she talks about this is very revealing!

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> I apologize. There are legit reactions to everything. I was thinking of one person I know whose kids are allergic to everything including peanuts and bee stings. The smile she has on her face when she talks about this is very revealing!
> 
> Ralph


No need to apologize. I was trying to make a joke of those that do what you say about people because I've seen them also. My mom is kind of one of them. Then even now when I tell people that I highly dislike the taste of peanut butter they always say I've been missing out on good stuff. No no I haven't.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Teslan said:


> Then even now when I tell people that I highly dislike the taste of peanut butter they always say I've been missing out on good stuff. No no I haven't.


No you haven't missed a thing,  I'm almost glad for those who don't like Reese Peanut Butter stuff. Not that I wouldn't share them, it's there is less people to share with, my portion can be bigger.  At least it makes sense to me (don't tell my better half differently either, please).

Larry


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

r82230 said:


> No you haven't missed a thing,  I'm almost glad for those who don't like Reese Peanut Butter stuff. Not that I wouldn't share them, it's there is less people to share with, my portion can be bigger.  At least it makes sense to me (don't tell my better half differently either, please).
> 
> Larry


Hard to beat Reese's Pnut butter cups, most especially cold....with some popcorn


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

With the few windows we have we gotta go every time. Like others have said," if it's green and smells good they think it's great"


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> Hard to beat Reese's Pnut butter cups, most especially cold....with some popcorn


A mouthful of dirt would taste better.


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## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

We cut when ever weather dictates we can. I will start at 6am with dew on the grass and not get off the tractor until dew is back on at 8 at night. With the tedder starting an hour later so i have a head start. Then we have a broad spectrum of sugar content. I wish we had enough proper haying weather where i could decide ill cut this field 8 hours later to worry about sugar content. 
Make them test it, if they're worried about it. For two horses not worth it, at least for us to try to cater to that.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Hard to beat Reese's Pnut butter cups, most especially cold....with some popcorn


When was the last time you had your cholesterol checked? Two or so weeks ago you were talking about eating a big bag of M&M peanuts.....mighty good tasting, but risky. 

Regards, Mike


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

I had a guy look at some hay one time and told me "oh you baled that with a krone baler I can't feed that to my cows they don't have any flakes in the bale like a hesston. He's on my don't answer list. My worst thing about selling hay is to sell to some one that has MONEY. Not can I pay for this in a few months. I alway tell them when you go to the supermarket you tell them can I pay for this later? 
Growing alfalfa hay is easey but when you have to sell to dairys like I have to it's a pain in the [email protected]@ you have to cut in the pre bud stage or try to and still get some tonnage. Make Shure no leaf shatter but not to wet but not to dry. "Did you get any rain on that"? Nope just a heavy dew. Oh and make Shure you get that in the barn before it bleaches . Then you have to put tarps on the floor so no dirt on the hay. Why do I grow hay? Lol some times I wish I did not live at 4800ft so I could grow corn again


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The low sugar requests haven't arrived here but low protein has. That's fine by me, I know how to do that. The demand set off by people feeding inactive stall bound horses high protein hay and grain until they have to have the vet out. They will listen to him at least about what an inactive horse should eat.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> Horses are tough. They generally eat grasses that are 7% CP and thrive on it. They are a superb example of engineering like something I could only dream of building.
> 
> In my experience, there are more opinions than there are facts, especially among horse owners. It seems that a "theory" goes around a stable or saddle club about a topic such as insulin resistance and everybody jumps on it--"My horse CAN ONLY HAVE _______" (fill in the blank with whatever nonsense you want).


Oh god yes, the neighbors are buying western hay for their horses. Why? Because the nutritionist?!?! they hired told em to&#8230;.

These are lawn ornaments, regular old run of the mill nags, have never seen a saddle on one yet.

I suspect the "nutritionist" either got the owners in touch with a relative that is either a supplier of western hay or a vet.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Vol said:


> When was the pastime you had your cholesterol checked? Two or so weeks ago you were talking about eating a big bag of M&M peanuts.....mighty good tasting, but risky.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Cholesterol... BAH!!!!

When my wife starts that crap I tell her, "JFK's cholesterol was 1600, and he lived a long and healthy life!" (Right up to when they shot him anyway...)

Later! OL J R 

PS. Pass the steak sauce!


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

deerezilla said:


> I had a guy look at some hay one time and told me "oh you baled that with a krone baler I can't feed that to my cows they don't have any flakes in the bale like a hesston. He's on my don't answer list. My worst thing about selling hay is to sell to some one that has MONEY. Not can I pay for this in a few months. I alway tell them when you go to the supermarket you tell them can I pay for this later?
> Growing alfalfa hay is easey but when you have to sell to dairys like I have to it's a pain in the [email protected]@ you have to cut in the pre bud stage or try to and still get some tonnage. Make Shure no leaf shatter but not to wet but not to dry. "Did you get any rain on that"? Nope just a heavy dew. Oh and make Shure you get that in the barn before it bleaches . Then you have to put tarps on the floor so no dirt on the hay. Why do I grow hay? Lol some times I wish I did not live at 4800ft so I could grow corn again


The same guy that said he couldn't buy hay from fields more then 5 years established said he couldn't buy hay that even had one drop of rain. I asked him how he felt about heavy dew. He was fine with that.......


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> When was the last time you had your cholesterol checked? Two or so weeks ago you were talking about eating a big bag of M&M peanuts.....mighty good tasting, but risky.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Lol, never...but I do love some peanut M&M's...as a matter of fact, l like anything with the name Pnut in it, add chocolate and it's even better! Now the popcorn.....I love popcorn but they need to genetically engineer popcorn so as to not leave them damned yeller husks in your chompers every time....then I would eat more popcorn....no salt of course, would be bad for ya' " . Btw that was the "sharing size" of Pnut M&M's, but I had my grand younguns with me so I did give them a couple...just a couple


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

If only a big bag of glosette peanuts wouldn't melt into a lump in the cab! (I just searched and these might not be a US candy, I guarantee you'd love them!)



somedevildawg said:


> Lol, never...but I do love some peanut M&M's...as a matter of fact, l like anything with the name Pnut in it, add chocolate and it's even better! Now the popcorn.....I love popcorn but they need to genetically engineer popcorn so as to not leave them damned yeller husks in your chompers every time....then I would eat more popcorn....no salt of course, would be bad for ya' " . Btw that was the "sharing size" of Pnut M&M's, but I had my grand younguns with me so I did give them a couple...just a couple


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Oh god yes, the neighbors are buying western hay for their horses. Why? Because the nutritionist?!?! they hired told em to&#8230;.
> These are lawn ornaments, regular old run of the mill nags, have never seen a saddle on one yet.
> I suspect the "nutritionist" either got the owners in touch with a relative that is either a supplier of western hay or a vet.


Next time you see them, say you've got a buddy who grows a specialty mix of deluxe western grass hay that is watered with pure Rocky Mountain snow melt water and an occasional irrigation by a golden retriever. And tell them that it can be delivered and stacked for a mere $5,000 per ton.

You get me a gig like that and I might start drinking again! Not to mention rewarding you with a handsome finder fee!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> Lol, never...but I do love some peanut M&M's...as a matter of fact, l like anything with the name Pnut in it, add chocolate and it's even better! Now the popcorn.....I love popcorn but they need to genetically engineer popcorn so as to not leave them damned yeller husks in your chompers every time....then I would eat more popcorn....no salt of course, would be bad for ya' " . Btw that was the "sharing size" of Pnut M&M's, but I had my grand younguns with me so I did give them a couple...just a couple


Try popping sorghum (milo) in the microwave... Makes the cutest little miniature popcorn puffs... LOL

Because it doesn't have the thick seed coat, only about maybe 75% of it actually pops (the rest is just "duds" like those that litter the bottom of the popcorn bag or popper) but because it doesn't have the thick seed coat like popcorn, it doesn't leave hulls stuck in your teeth, either.

Popcorn basically works because of the extremely hard and tough seed coat... the moisture inside the kernel heats to the boiling point building pressure inside until the seed coat ruptures, then the moisture under pressure flashes to steam in a steam explosion, puffing the cooked starch in the process... Same thing happens in sorghum that's popped, but the softer and smaller seed coat is less obnoxious and less likely to get stuck in your teeth-- and some kernels don't pop because they can't contain the pressure and bleed it off gradually or something, or have insufficient moisture to pop. (Same reasons some popcorn kernels are "duds").

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

slowzuki said:


> If only a big bag of glosette peanuts wouldn't melt into a lump in the cab! (I just searched and these might not be a US candy, I guarantee you'd love them!)


Got a pic?? Is that like them big orange marshmallow-ish "circus peanuts" candy?? I HATE THOSE THINGS! They're just plum NASTY!!!

But I guess some folks like em... course some folks like licorice too... Only thing licorice flavored I've found that I remotely liked was some little German cookies my BIL's mother makes at Christmastime... little sandy-type cookies with little anise seeds embedded in the bottoms of them... for licorice tasting stuff, they were pretty good...

Later! OL J R


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> Try popping sorghum (milo) in the microwave... Makes the cutest little miniature popcorn puffs... LOL
> 
> Because it doesn't have the thick seed coat, only about maybe 75% of it actually pops (the rest is just "duds" like those that litter the bottom of the popcorn bag or popper) but because it doesn't have the thick seed coat like popcorn, it doesn't leave hulls stuck in your teeth, either.
> 
> ...


There's the rocket surgeon in you coming out again!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Ima have to try Milopop


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> Hard to beat Reese's Pnut butter cups, most especially cold....with some popcorn


You are speaking my language dawg!! Love chilled Reese's.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

These things right here are glossettes, peanuts with a thin coating of chocolate but not like that bridge mixture etc. The bulk store ones just don't taste anywhere near as good! They make raisin and almond versions as well but I have no idea why.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

luke strawwalker said:


> Try popping sorghum (milo) in the microwave... Makes the cutest little miniature popcorn puffs... LOL
> 
> Because it doesn't have the thick seed coat, only about maybe 75% of it actually pops (the rest is just "duds" like those that litter the bottom of the popcorn bag or popper) but because it doesn't have the thick seed coat like popcorn, it doesn't leave hulls stuck in your teeth, either.
> 
> ...


You read more than I do. Or maybe you just paid more attention in school than I did!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Later! OL J R


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Love popcorn, believe it's part of the Lappin genetics.

I've grown some Japanese hulless in the past, not near the problem with hulls sticking in your teeth.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

slowzuki said:


> These things right here are glossettes, peanuts with a thin coating of chocolate but not like that bridge mixture etc. The bulk store ones just don't taste anywhere near as good! They make raisin and almond versions as well but I have no idea why.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Them's is goobers....in the Deep South


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Great answers - great topic - thx!!!!!

We've just sold the last of our hay equipment and are buying a McDonalds franchise with a popcorn machine in the corner.....


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