# This is how it works in big business



## rjmoses

http://www.suntimes.com/22834117-761/adm-to-get-tax-breaks-under-proposal.html

ADM certainly needs tax breaks! A 30 year 10% tax break on utilities taxes could mean a LOT of money when you consider all of ADM's elevators and facilities.

And then there's the EDGE tax break. This credits ADM with a tax break equivalent to the state income taxes paid by 200 employees over 15 years. If the average employee make $50,000 and pays 6% state income tax, that's $3000 per employee, times 200, or $600,000/year.

Essentially what this nifty little program does is give the employee's state income tax to ADM, and, being a tax break, reduces the amount of income tax that ADM has to pay to the state of illinois. (Note the lack of capitalization--capitalization used to mean a indication of respect and illinois no longer gets my respect!)

More on the EDGE tax credit:

http://www.ildceo.net/dceo/Bureaus/Business_Development/Tax+Assistance/EDGE.htm

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The rich do not pay taxes!

Now, they have figured out how to get the working people to give them their paychecks. Without even knowing it!

Ralph


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## discbinedr

I disagree that the rich don't pay taxes. They pay way more than anybody else. The problem here is crony capitalism where the big corporations have friends in washington (note the lowercase) and the philosophy is, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. Makes for an unfair business environment which in turn hurts small business which hurts the country as a whole. This makes them pinheads!


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## JD3430

Where did I read the top 3% of income earners pay 50% of the federal tax load?


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## discbinedr

I thought it was 1%. That seems a little crazy though.......


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> Where did I read the top 3% of income earners pay 50% of the federal tax load?


WOW!!

http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays-income-taxes.html


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## JD3430

Yup, the tax system certainly is "progressive", isn't it? Obama wants to make it even more "progressive".

Lets face it, success is penalized in this country, rather than lauded. 
I'm not suggesting rich people pay LESS taxes than poor, but a flat rate tax should probably be employed. That way were all treated the same. 
Same principal should be applied with health care. EVERYONE should have to receive the SAME lousy healthcare, congress, unions, special groups should all be included.
Maybe if Nancy Pelossi, Harry Reid and DICK Durbin had the same health care we fly over people had, they wouldn't be so determined to pass it.

After all, don't we still live in a country where ALL MEN ARE TREATED EQUAL?


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## mlappin

Yup, take a close look at that chart, the bottom 50% of earners just barely pay over 2% of federal income taxes collected, yet I can guarantee you all public assistance, public transportation and public housing is used by the bottom 50%.

I've been for a flat tax or even a increased sales tax on ALL items including food for years. If a flat tax, the rich still pay more on $20,000,000 than somebody else would pay on $20,000. If a sales tax the rich for the most part have more expensive tastes and would pay more than somebody pinching pennies and clipping coupons.

Besides then you could do away with the damn IRS in the process, at least for individuals and small business.


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## rjmoses

When I say the rich don't pay taxes, I mean it in a bottom-line sense. In other words, they cannot afford politically to appear not to be paying taxes. That would get the lower and middle classes totally bent out of shape.

Instead, they get tax breaks like the EDGE program, preferential business decision that give them government business, an interstate highway exit ramp built in a certain place, etc., such that they take more out of the system than they are paying are paying into it.

There was a good reason why one individual flew to washington, dc, once a week to play golf with Dan Rostenkowski, chairman of the Tax Ways and Means Committee! And it wasn't because he loved golf so much!

And I love the idea of a direct income tax--you get income--you pay a tax, in cash or check.

Ralph


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## JD3430

mlappin said:


> Yup, take a close look at that chart, the bottom 50% of earners just barely pay over 2% of federal income taxes collected, yet I can guarantee you all public assistance, public transportation and public housing is used by the bottom 50%.
> I've been for a flat tax or even a increased sales tax on ALL items including food for years. If a flat tax, the rich still pay more on $20,000,000 than somebody else would pay on $20,000. If a sales tax the rich for the most part have more expensive tastes and would pay more than somebody pinching pennies and clipping coupons.
> Besides then you could do away with the damn IRS in the process, at least for individuals and small business.


Not to mention a poor person will never give you a job or build a business that employs people.

No, our govt and our liberal press demonize rich people, call them "fat cats", "pigs" and "greedy". Yet the rich people are the ones I see coming home at 10pm, working weekends, taking cell phone calls during their kids games....

I work ONLY for rich people and I know for a fact they spend money on my services that they don't have to spend. They have a sense of community and sharing that is very heart warming. They give donations to schools and churches, they employ people, pay Christmas bonuses, etc. 
Thanks rich people! I owe my success to you, NOT our govt. our govt steals and wastes money on wine tasting studies and cronie capitalism to bankrupt businesses. 
Our govt should stop making them out to be bad people because for the most part, they aren't.


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## discbinedr

With a flat tax everybody has skin in the game, including the lower middle class and the poor. That should make everybody in favor of a smaller, leaner more efficient government. Alas, it will never happen because the Dems need their votes.


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## JD3430

discbinedr said:


> With a flat tax everybody has skin in the game, including the lower middle class and the poor. That should make everybody in favor of a smaller, leaner more efficient government. Alas, it will never happen because the Dems need their votes.


Yep, they need to "pay off" their voting base with free money, cell phones,


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## Fowllife

discbinedr said:


> With a flat tax everybody has skin in the game, including the lower middle class and the poor. That should make everybody in favor of a smaller, leaner more efficient government. Alas, it will never happen because the Dems need their votes.


Your right, it will never happen, that would mean the "poor" might actually have to pay SOME tax. Our tax system is so messed up it isn't even funny. My sister in law is the perfect example of this. She has 5 kids with another one on the way. She has a job were she makes around $25k/year, but somehow her tax refund is $10-12k every year! How can our system be so screwed up that people can MAKE money by filing there taxes! We are paying these people to be morons. I don't care what kind of stupid crap you did, no one should ever MAKE money & tax time. Your max refund should be what you paid in,


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## slowzuki

Flat tax isn't fair unless you have a different definition of fair than me. After paying for basic needs like food and shelter the rich have far more disposable income to pay tax with than the poor.

As with flat tax, sales taxes always impact the poor more heavily than the rich simply because they have less free money to spend on things.

I don't want a return to feudal times where only the rich are allowed to make decisions for everyone because they will only make decisions to help themselves or their family and friends.

The example of the single mom with 5 kids living on 25K a year, I assume as here the money she gets back is the tax she paid in during the year and some kind of baby bonus think like here. I bet she returns more of her money % wise to the economy than a rich person, in fact I bet she returns all of it because she has no choice but to spend every cent.

The baby bonus is sort of a way of rewarding growth of the population as its expensive to have kids but they are needed to provide labour in the next generation or the system kinda falls apart.


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## discbinedr

Flat tax is based on percentage. For example, a 10 % flat tax means if I make $20000 I pay $2000 , if I make $20 million I pay $2 million. That would be after deductibles including child tax credits. If you're the guy making $20000 you can choose to complain about your $2000 or you can be thankful for the guy that's paying $2 million. He is helping to pay your way after all. You cannot create wealth by taking from the rich and giving to the poor.


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## mlappin

slowzuki said:


> Flat tax isn't fair unless you have a different definition of fair than me. After paying for basic needs like food and shelter the rich have far more disposable income to pay tax with than the poor.
> 
> As with flat tax, sales taxes always impact the poor more heavily than the rich simply because they have less free money to spend on things.


That's why their rich, they have more money, but it isn't fair after paying 2 million in taxes compared to someone else's $2000? Sounds more than fair to me considering somebody who got off with only 2K in taxes most likely use a lot of public services that the rich who rarely or never use em are helping to pay for.

The rich have richer tastes and generally spend more, and will pay more in sales tax. The rich might buy a state of the art, largest flat screen money can buy and easily have $8000 in it while the poor wouldn't buy any flat screen in the first place and make do with what they have. The rich just payed a hefty sales tax while the poor paid none. That ain't fair?


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> Flat tax isn't fair unless you have a different definition of fair than me. After paying for basic needs like food and shelter the rich have far more disposable income to pay tax with than the poor.As with flat tax, sales taxes always impact the poor more heavily than the rich simply because they have less free money to spend on things.I don't want a return to feudal times where only the rich are allowed to make decisions for everyone because they will only make decisions to help themselves or their family and friends.The example of the single mom with 5 kids living on 25K a year, I assume as here the money she gets back is the tax she paid in during the year and some kind of baby bonus think like here. I bet she returns more of her money % wise to the economy than a rich person, in fact I bet she returns all of it because she has no choice but to spend every cent.The baby bonus is sort of a way of rewarding growth of the population as its expensive to have kids but they are needed to provide labour in the next generation or the system kinda falls apart.


Were not saying we should return to those times either and BTW, there's a hell of a lot more poor people voting than rich people. That's why Obama got elected!

Our system has fallen apart. It's rare to see a millennial that wants to really work any more. 
Rich people spend way more money than poor people. They buy big homes, lots of consumer goods, etc. that puts our people to work. 
The US economy sucks under this administration. Rich people are afraid to spend money because the govt destroyed consumer confidence, raised taxes and increased entitlement spending. People are scared Obama will take us over a cliff into euro socialism. Screw socialism. It's for lazy losers who can't cut it in the real world!!!!! There, I said it!!! 
Rant over!


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## JD3430

What is so grossly overlooked is when there's no rich people, there's no job creators. Then we have to rely on our government.....and there just as pure as the driven snow....no corruption or special interests there......rrriiiiiiight......


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## slowzuki

So even ignoring social responsibilities, doesn't that mean in a democratic society their interests and needs should come first by simple numbers?

Why do republicans insist rich people "created" their wealth? Since the 1950's the middle class has been getting hollowed out with wealth moving to the top earners not distributing to the poorer groups. Despite the american dream, most people who are rich had rich parents, and chances are their kids will be rich too.

If we could eliminate all forms of inheritance so every generation started from scratch I'd be fine with flat tax but our kids aren't all jumping off the same height of diving board into this world.



JD3430 said:


> BTW, there's a hell of a lot more poor people voting than rich people.


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## discbinedr

Other people's money is other people's money and I don't care if they inherited it or earned it. Liberals like to give other people's money to poor people to assuage their own guilt for not giving more themselves. Polls show that conservatives give more to charity time and again.


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## rjmoses

Fowllife said:


> Our tax system is so messed up it isn't even funny. My sister in law is the perfect example of this. She has 5 kids with another one on the way. She has a job were she makes around $25k/year, but somehow her tax refund is $10-12k every year! How can our system be so screwed up that people can MAKE money by filing there taxes!


Simple. This is called communism (or socialism, or whatever "ism" you want).

Ralph


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## Fowllife

rjmoses said:


> Simple. This is called communism (or socialism, or whatever "ism" you want).
> 
> Ralph


It would have to be socialism. Socialism is a good thing, communism is a bad thing, at least that what our kids in school are being taught now.....


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## Fowllife

slowzuki said:


> The example of the single mom with 5 kids living on 25K a year, I assume as here the money she gets back is the tax she paid in during the year and some kind of baby bonus think like here. I bet she returns more of her money % wise to the economy than a rich person, in fact I bet she returns all of it because she has no choice but to spend every cent.
> 
> The baby bonus is sort of a way of rewarding growth of the population as its expensive to have kids but they are needed to provide labour in the next generation or the system kinda falls apart.


The money she get's back isn't "her" money. Just like all the other goverment moochers she probably only paid paid $500 in federal tax throughout the year. The rest of the $10k they get back is from the goverment (MY tax dollars)

Most of the people like this TAKE way more out of the economy then they put into it. They live off the goverment.

The baby bonus is pure BS in my opinion. All these young kids don't want to work anyways, so they provide no labor force in the future. If we would stop rewarding people for having kids that they can't take care of people would think a little harder about having them. Right now our system is set up to max out there "reward" at 6 kids! Thats just what we need, someone who isn't smart enough to only have the number of kids they can support to keep on popping out more little morons so they can max out their goverment assistance.


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> So even ignoring social responsibilities, doesn't that mean in a democratic society their interests and needs should come first by simple numbers?Why do republicans insist rich people "created" their wealth? Since the 1950's the middle class has been getting hollowed out with wealth moving to the top earners not distributing to the poorer groups. Despite the american dream, most people who are rich had rich parents, and chances are their kids will be rich too.If we could eliminate all forms of inheritance so every generation started from scratch I'd be fine with flat tax but our kids aren't all jumping off the same height of diving board into this world.


Read about how socialism worked for William Bradford's gang of pilgrims from the Mayflower. Or maybe Greece' current problems?? 
Socialism and communism don't work. They cater to the lowest common denominator. They punish success and reward laziness. It steals from those who produce and gives it to those who won't work. 
We have cities full of socialism and most are bankrupt and run by democrats. They are examples of why socialism, handouts and welfare don't work. Throw in radical environmentalism to shutter all the factories and power plants and we have people walking the streets during day stoned or stealing from others.


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## slowzuki

How do you define the line between what the gov should be interfering in peoples lives about and what they shouldn't? Ie why is the epa telling folks that say leaded gas that is causing developmental problems in kids from the exhaust is an overstep, vs the state telling two women they can't get married is ok or why drinking yourself into a mess ok but hippie smoking themselves into a mess is bad?

Just to be clear I'm not a supporter of alcoholics or drug addicts, the libertarian side of me says they should be free to do as they please until they run of of money or cause problems but the socialist side of me says we have enough years experience with this as a society to know the ring of pardon my french, shit surrounding an addict spills into everyones lives eventually either directly or paying to try to deal with the person.


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## discbinedr

Always err on the side of individual freedom.


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> How do you define the line between what the gov should be interfering in peoples lives about and what they shouldn't? Ie why is the epa telling folks that say leaded gas that is causing developmental problems in kids from the exhaust is an overstep, vs the state telling two women they can't get married is ok or why drinking yourself into a mess ok but hippie smoking themselves into a mess is bad?
> 
> Just to be clear I'm not a supporter of alcoholics or drug addicts, the libertarian side of me says they should be free to do as they please until they run of of money or cause problems but the socialist side of me says we have enough years experience with this as a society to know the ring of pardon my french, shit surrounding an addict spills into everyones lives eventually either directly or paying to try to deal with the person.


Can you understand why people don't want govt intervention in their lives when you see govt scandals with the IRS, NSA, etc. harassing and spying on its citizenry?
Crap I'm scared to tell anyone my voting tendencies for fear of being harassed by the IRS.

What kind of life so you have if you live in fear of a overbearing, over reaching government trying to intimidate its citizenry into voting for one party? Maybe you don't mind, but
I DON'T WANT them spying on me!!!

You want to get rid of drug problems? 
Make sentences for distributing drugs so harsh, no one would dare sell them while offering free addiction therapy. 
Seal the borders so mules with drugs stop coming in. 
Perhaps these Hollywood retards could start making movies that show the misery of drug addiction rather than glamorize it
Elect a government with zero tolerance for drugs instead of one turning a blind eye to its states trying to legalize it.

Might not be perfect, but its a start


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## rjmoses

Here's a followup article on ADM and tax breaks:

http://www.suntimes.com/news/22911105-418/archer-daniels-midland-cos-tax-credit-request-gets-frosty-reception.html

Ralph


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> How do you define the line between what the gov should be interfering in peoples lives about and what they shouldn't? Ie why is the epa telling folks that say leaded gas that is causing developmental problems in kids from the exhaust is an overstep, vs the state telling two women they can't get married is ok or why drinking yourself into a mess ok but hippie smoking themselves into a mess is bad?
> 
> Just to be clear I'm not a supporter of alcoholics or drug addicts, the libertarian side of me says they should be free to do as they please until they run of of money or cause problems but the socialist side of me says we have enough years experience with this as a society to know the ring of pardon my french, shit surrounding an addict spills into everyones lives eventually either directly or paying to try to deal with the person.


Ask Dr Ben Carson what happens when you speak out against the current regime......


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## Tim/South

I do not care if heroine addicts shoot up and remove themselves from the planet.

Just do not ask me to pay for their individual, conscious decision.

I do not care how many babies a woman has. I am not their father.

Do not ask me to pay for their raising. (Notice there is no tax credit for the father who sired the child, which does not seem fair)

I do not care how much money a person makes. The more they make, the more they spend. Their money draws interest and is in a bank that loans it to the rest of us. I do not believe they should pay any more than any other equal citizen.

My home state of Alabama has lured 3 different foreign auto makers into our state in recent years. We did so by providing a work force and tax breaks. We could not pay them to build here but we could give them a free ride tax wise.

Why?

Because they create jobs. Jobs create more tax revenue.

Why should a local business person not receive the same tax breaks as the foreign auto makers?

Local businesses provide jobs. Those workers spend money and boost tax revenue.

Look at how much we pay in taxes. We pay an income tax (state and federal) before we receive our pay check. Then we pay sales tax every time we spend that money which has already been taxed once.

Then we pay property tax every year out of money that has already been taxed once.

Then we have user taxes. We use roads so we pay a user tax at the gas pump. We pay that out of money that has already been taxed.

What is our benefit from all these taxes?

We pay for free cell phones and internet service for those who qualify (not deserve, then have done nothing to earn or deserve other than being born).

We work and are taxed at least twice on every dollar we earn *because we work* and earn a living.

A person from a foreign land can come to America, buy a Sever Eleven and be tax exempt for 9 years. Then they sell to another in the foreign network and get another 9 years tax free.

Why is this not available to citizens?

I have a friend who is a multi millionaire. He made his money legally over a 10 year period. He has just closed his doors. He made a lot of money, paid a lot of taxes but most of all employed dozens of working class people who will not longer be paying taxes.

If you are successful in America and employ people who feed the tax machine then you are penalized.

My friend was responsible for countless in tax revenue by employing people. He also paid 20 million in taxes himself, much more than he was allowed to keep.

Living the American Dream can get you the Royal Shaft.


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## Fowllife

Speaking of taxes, and how many taxes we pay......

Wasn't Federal income tax passed as a short term way to pay for a war? If I remember correctly it was supposed to be a short term fix and NEVER supposed to be permanent.

Also, Food stamps, welfare, and some other programs, including some of the free USDA money, was brought on by the dust bowl & Great Depresion & was also ment to be a temperary solution.

And here we are now, 80 year later. Which was a better, stronger country? Which country had a better work ethic, and more resourceful people? The U.S.A. of 2013, or the U.S.A. of the 1920's, 30's & 40's?


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## somedevildawg

slowzuki said:


> So even ignoring social responsibilities, doesn't that mean in a democratic society their interests and needs should come first by simple numbers?Why do republicans insist rich people "created" their wealth? Since the 1950's the middle class has been getting hollowed out with wealth moving to the top earners not distributing to the poorer groups. Despite the american dream, most people who are rich had rich parents, and chances are their kids will be rich too.If we could eliminate all forms of inheritance so every generation started from scratch I'd be fine with flat tax but our kids aren't all jumping off the same height of diving board into this world.


Wow.... That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard you say slowsuki....well except for being ignorant of religion.....good thing you live in Canada, you are definitely not of an American mindset....well, maybe you are I take that back....you've definitely got some kindred spirits here


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## slowzuki

Tim/South said:


> Tim/South, on 03 Oct 2013 - 12:43 AM, said:
> I do not care if heroine addicts shoot up and remove themselves from the planet.
> Just do not ask me to pay for their individual, conscious decision.


I'll just pick on this one cause its a bit simpler to follow.

What if they don't remove themselves from the planet and continue living with an addiction like many do that ends up with the ring of crap around them that I mentioned? Once addicted they aren't making a decision anymore, their body turns on them if they stop. Turns the individual decision into a social problem as you end up having to treat them or incarcerate them, both expensive options. Lots of less western countries that don't put individual rights as priority would just execute the addict which is usually unpopular with parents and loved ones and the falsely accused.


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## JD3430

Start punishing drug pushers with much, much stiffer sentences in jail (because many times their buyers eventually die) and drug use will decline.

We're too soft and accepting of deviant behavior. Part of the moral decline in this country.


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## slowzuki

What is ignorant about the statements?

The hollowing of the middle class and the general overall trend of rich folks kids being rich and poor folks kids being poor is not really an opinion, its just what has happened for decades. What is causing it is certainly open for debate.

Democracy - "a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state" I guess the difference in opinion is the ineligible in most peoples opinion would be children, non-residents etc. whereas some folks on here have expressed opinions that maybe poor people or people who don't own land, or people who are democrats (just kidding) shouldn't be allowed to vote. Pretty much the rest of the world that the US has been exporting democracy to the last 100 years thinks it means everyone gets to vote.
The comment about the diving board? Is that the ignorant comment? In what way? Poor kids do not have the same opportunities rich kids have. Simple as that. You want to bet on the kid from the family living on 1200$ a month getting a good college degree and getting a good job vs the kid in the family living on 25,000$ a month? The ideal of rags to riches american dream is nice but its not common.



somedevildawg said:


> somedevildawg, on 03 Oct 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:
> Wow.... That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard you say slowsuki....well except for being ignorant of religion.....good thing you live in Canada, you are definitely not of an American mindset....well, maybe you are I take that back....you've definitely got some kindred spirits here


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## somedevildawg

Let me tell you something about rags to riches slowsuki...when my mother was born in 1929 she and her father and mother were poor...and believe me, you don't know what poor is....have no idea. There was no government handouts, you had to work to survive, if you didn't you werent gonna make it long. Just the facts....my mother and father both grew up on farms, poor people, my father enlisted in the army air corps during the war....WORKED HARD... And became a pilot, became stationed here in south ga....met my mother, raised 7 children ( of which I was the youngest) my mother at the age of 37 decided to start a career, at the age of 60 went to college to get her degree, (a perdomanitly black university) my father didn't make it to 57, I thnk he may have WORKED himself to death. We never had a handout....never....and we are living the American Dream every day. Things it took....perseverance .....work ethic....moral ethic....lots of love around the house but when you were 18 your ass was out....bottom line, the American dream is there for all of us Americans to achieve.....it doesn't take a handout....and let me ask you this slowsuki, after my father worked his ass off and gave everything he had to better our lives, you think perhaps we should give his house to whom? His guns to whom? His money to whom? His land to whom? His automobiles to whom? His tractor to whom? Sell it all so we can buy diving boards and make sure they're all the same height? Just curious, you talked about where to draw that line in a earlier post.....where ya gonna draw that line on who is "rich" I can assure you I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams....just ain't got a whole lotta money


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## JD3430

Steve jobs wasn't a rich kid. His dad adopted him and he was a carpenter with only a HS education.
Talk about a tough start to life. He didnt do too bad did he now???

You see, the whole thing you're missing is America is the land of opportunity. Anyone here has a better shot at making the big time than in socialist countries. Now we have a socialist for a president. He and his socialist liberal professor types are trying to destroy opportunity in America by over regulation which makes it difficult to do R&D, theft through taxation which reduces capital available to persue big ideas and instead give that money to blood suckers who won't work. 
Socialism crushes the individuals ability to persue dreams. Look at Europe. Very little in new inventions or products comes from socialist Europe and what does come from there is industry subsidized by their governments.


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## Tim/South

slowzuki said:


> I'll just pick on this one cause its a bit simpler to follow.
> 
> What if they don't remove themselves from the planet and continue living with an addiction like many do that ends up with the ring of crap around them that I mentioned? Once addicted they aren't making a decision anymore, their body turns on them if they stop. Turns the individual decision into a social problem as you end up having to treat them or incarcerate them, both expensive options. Lots of less western countries that don't put individual rights as priority would just execute the addict which is usually unpopular with parents and loved ones and the falsely accused.


Why is it anyones business what the heroine addict does?

I did not make him/her an addict. The government did not make them an addict. Personal freedom to become an addict is a path the individual elected. Who am I or anyone else to tell the addict they are wrong or unhappy? I am not their moral compass, nor do I have the right or obligation to reform them. If we allow them to live in their own little world of drugs then they will eventually run out of brain cells or heart beats and cease to exist. That is their personal choice and right.

Yes, the drugs are illegal. Yet some government agencies supply clean needles so the addict does not catch a disease. Something about that picture is a little murky.

Does a drug addict not have the right to pursue happiness? Are they less of an individual because they chose a different road to happiness than the main stream? Do governments and individuals have the right to inflict their verdict on those they deem as less human because their life's choices are not up to a standard whoever is judging decides?

If a person makes a conscious decision to follow a life that will find them dead in an alley one day then that is their individual right.

I shall share a little more about my (eventually) successful friend.

He left small town USA with a college degree and moved to Chicago. Took a job in sales and was sent all over the States in entry level sales prospects. Small salary and commission. He was forced to file bankruptcy after the first year.

He took another sales job and found himself homeless in Colorado. He could not afford a bus ticket home, worked any handyman job he could to afford or barter a place to lay his head at night. Discovered that a deli would sell stale food just before closing at a price a homeless person could afford. Finally managed enough money for a bus ticket back to small town USA. Found a job grinding stumps when that was just becoming popular.

He began to buy and sell books on the side, a task he discovered from a former co-worker. He developed a knack for this and made some money. Business grew. He was honest and his word was his contract. He saw a need for English speaking books to be sold to other countries. He bought used books of any kind, text books, novels, any book printed in English he could resell at any profit.

He built a house and worked shipping from his basement. Then moved to a small warehouse. Then moved to and enormous warehouse ($18,000 per month rent). Became a world leader in his area.

He rewarded his employees generously. He financed their homes and vehicles at no interest.

He gave his manager a $500,000 Christmas bonus one year because his security cameras caught the man staying late to ship an order he had promised would go out the next morning and stayed to fill it himself so everyone else go home on time.

I went with him to his warehouse this week. Bitter sweet. Politics and regulations have finally discovered him and he gave the business to the African American employee mentioned above. It will be a small shell of the enterprise it once was.

No silver spoons in the working class America that built this nation.


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## somedevildawg

Handouts ruin people and eventually countries....doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Fair...my dad always told us " ain't nothin in life fair son, the fair is where you go to ride the Ferris wheel, if you want to go to the fair you better go outside and pick up some pecans". No we didn't get money to go to the fair, dad made us earn it, kinda like respect, has to be earned, he earned mine although he never had to...


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## Fowllife

somedevildawg said:


> Let me tell you something about rags to riches slowsuki...when my mother was born in 1929 she and her father and mother were poor...and believe me, you don't know what poor is....have no idea. There was no government handouts, you had to work to survive, if you didn't you werent gonna make it long. Just the facts....my mother and father both grew up on farms, poor people, my father enlisted in the army air corps during the war....WORKED HARD... And became a pilot, became stationed here in south ga....met my mother, raised 7 children ( of which I was the youngest) my mother at the age of 37 decided to start a career, at the age of 60 went to college to get her degree, (a perdomanitly black university) my father didn't make it to 57, I thnk he may have WORKED himself to death. We never had a handout....never....and we are living the American Dream every day. Things it took....perseverance .....work ethic....moral ethic....lots of love around the house but when you were 18 your ass was out....bottom line, the American dream is there for all of us Americans to achieve.....it doesn't take a handout....and let me ask you this slowsuki, after my father worked his ass off and gave everything he had to better our lives, you think perhaps we should give his house to whom? His guns to whom? His money to whom? His land to whom? His automobiles to whom? His tractor to whom? Sell it all so we can buy diving boards and make sure they're all the same height? Just curious, you talked about where to draw that line in a earlier post.....where ya gonna draw that line on who is "rich" I can assure you I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams....just ain't got a whole lotta money


x100

I'm with you totally on this one. We need to get rid of the inheritance tax all together. If someone is smart enough & works hard enough to be able to hand something down to there kids to give them a more comfortable life why should the goverment be entitled to any share of it? We are getting closer and closer to a communist, I mean "socialist) goverment. We are going further and further down the toilet.

We need to put a time limit on ALL entitlements, period. I don't care if it's WIC, SNAP, welfare, ect. Everything needs to have a max time you can receive benifets. They are no longer programs to "help" someone out of a bad time. They have become a way of life for way too many people.

Heck, there is a city counsil menmber in a town not too far from me that has a member that has NEVER had a job. She has been on welfar for over 30 years! She was elected by all the other welfar people. Somehow she manages to drive a nice car though, and has a new Iphone.....kind of like we give a single mother who gets food stamps because "she has no money to raise her kid" but she somehow has money for her iphone, smokes, her caddy with 22" rims and designer clothes........Yeah our country isn't screwed up though.


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## Fowllife

Sorry Ralph, we are getting a little off topic here.....What was this thread about again.....


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## rjmoses

Fowllife said:


> Sorry Ralph, we are getting a little off topic here.....What was this thread about again.....


Government handouts...to ADM.

Ralph


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## JD3430

I think lobbyists are a BIG problem in DC, creating pressure on congressmen and senators and president for handouts and special favors.
Obama said he'd get rid of all the lobbyists.........LMAO.


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## FCF

To a greater or lesser degree all governments (federal, state, local) need to operate like a business. Preferably a small to medium sized business. Set a budget, plan where a sustainable income is coming from without killing the customer (John Q. Public), and STICK TO IT! Increasing taxes/fees in many areas is not a sustainable income plan and will kill the customer.

Had a boss that maintained we are not all born equal. We all have different God given talents and abilities. What we choose to do with them determines a lot what oppurtunities will be opened up to us and what our life will be like. One needs to be responsilbe for yourself.


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## slowzuki

Not to speak for you but it sounds like your point is you and family have achieved happiness but not wealth? That's my point, hard worker doesn't always = wealth any more than lazy worker = poor.



somedevildawg said:


> Sell it all so we can buy diving boards and make sure they're all the same height? Just curious, you talked about where to draw that line in a earlier post.....where ya gonna draw that line on who is "rich" I can assure you I'm rich beyond my wildest dreams....just ain't got a whole lotta money


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## slowzuki

1/3 billion people in the us and there was a Steve Jobs and a Bill Gates who happened to come along at the right time of a tech explosion. There just aren't as many people making it big these days compared to 50 years ago.

Saying that there is not innovation in europe may be correct in a few specific fields but certainly not overall For their population base (relatively small) they are responsible for a great deal of innovation.

Many argue socialism is what enables people to pursue dreams instead of being held down by economic position in society. Would anyone on here argue that the US should stop subsidizing school for poor people so only rich kids get an education? Talking innovation, if the country is going to excel against the worlds competitors shouldn't maximizing the pool of talent to draw on via education be a goal?



JD3430 said:


> Steve jobs wasn't a rich kid. His dad adopted him and he was a carpenter with only a HS education.
> Talk about a tough start to life. He didnt do too bad did he now???
> 
> You see, the whole thing you're missing is America is the land of opportunity. Anyone here has a better shot at making the big time than in socialist countries. Now we have a socialist for a president. He and his socialist liberal professor types are trying to destroy opportunity in America by over regulation which makes it difficult to do R&D, theft through taxation which reduces capital available to persue big ideas and instead give that money to blood suckers who won't work.
> Socialism crushes the individuals ability to persue dreams. Look at Europe. Very little in new inventions or products comes from socialist Europe and what does come from there is industry subsidized by their governments.


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## somedevildawg

slowzuki said:


> Not to speak for you but it sounds like your point is you and family have achieved happiness but not wealth? That's my point, hard worker doesn't always = wealth any more than lazy worker = poor.


Wow


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## swmnhay

slowzuki said:


> Not to speak for you but it sounds like your point is you and family have achieved happiness but not wealth? That's my point, hard worker doesn't always = wealth any more than lazy worker = poor.


Hard working doesn't nesasarily mean you will be rich.But a lazy person sure as heck should = poor not get a handout from the hard working.


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## JD3430

I work my ass off 6-7 days a week for low pay, but I am proud of whati do. 
I can't believe we pay people, sometimes more than what I make, to stay at home and get stoned and some people think that's ok. 
Isn't there something fundamentally screwed up about doing that? 
Wouldn't even a died in the wool socialist understand its not fair to give hard working people's money to the lazy who won't work.


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## deadmoose

The attitude of "your best is good enough" and "here is your trophy" comes out. They have not seen nor believe that someone doesn't try to do their best. They truly believe that by enabling people to never fend for themselves we are truly helping them and society as a whole. It is not intentional. Perhaps they have never been in a high rise in the ghetto. Perhaps they have not witnessed the beggars on the corner and dealt with them and their history. Perhaps they have never offered multiple people jobs only to be turned down (not regrettingly) because the job will interfere with unemployment, healthcare, or other government benefits. Perhaps they do not see the dependence on the government that all of these programs create.


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## FarmerCline

Lazy people who do not want to work deserve to be and should be poor as they don't do anything to make money. And why should I give one red penny of my hard earned money to help these people that won't help themselves. If the government would quit giving handouts to these people they would either have to work to provide for themselves or do without.


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## JD3430

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need (or needs)" is a slogan popularised by Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.

I can't believe any socialist would want life this way. I'm sure Karl Marx loved it since he was already an elitist and didnt have to worry about money or comfort.

If I am to understand this correctly, it means work and tax the hard-working individual as much as possible so the government can take his money and give it to those who won't work?

Where's the "fairness" that Obama preaches in that?


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## slowzuki

I don't have any issue with lazy folks being poor, nor do any left leaning folks that I know. We don't like welfare or unemployment or disability abusers either, but we don't want those systems to go away just because people abuse them. We see people who abuse it as stealing out of our pockets too.

Socialism isn't marxism, I'm no communist and have no pretences that it is some ideal. Pure marxism is a theory and has never even really been practiced, his slogan in my understanding meant everyone was to work as hard as they can and in a sense and voluntarily turn over their excess to support the nation. Sort of like the US war effort in WW2.

As we know in Russia it didn't work all that well with a horribly brutal start and mistrust among the groups. Food wasn't shared, it was taken and the Ukraine was basically starved to death due to the main gov making fake promises about increased food production to the industrial production areas then taking all the farmers food.

Just a fun little fact, communist countries turn out to be the capitalists dream once they get signed on like China. The tight rule of communism is very similar and favourable to how companies operate.



swmnhay said:


> swmnhay, on 04 Oct 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:
> Hard working doesn't nesasarily mean you will be rich.But a lazy person sure as heck should = poor not get a handout from the hard working.


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## JD3430

China, huh? 
1 child per couple......what a dream.
Don't forget Slowzuki, we tea party conservative-type, fly over country people like our big families, too.


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## slowzuki

I'm just saying China with its communist system works well with large companies who I always assume more favourable align themselves with tea party / republican politics of laisez-faire capitalism. I'm not suggesting this is the right direction to take western nations! 1 child per couple has saved China from starvation and political collapse in the short term as they were on track to outstrip even the worlds food supply about now. We will probably see some of the problems it caused in our lifetime though, an excess of boys to girls rarely bodes well for a countries stability when they are in their teens to 30's. There's already a class problem for couples there too, women tend to marry in the same or up so there is a big group of sort of high class / educated women with no potential mates who would never cross down to the bottom class group of available men. Leaves even more men free to get up to no good.



JD3430 said:


> China, huh?
> 1 child per couple......what a dream.
> Don't forget Slowzuki, we tea party conservative-type, fly over country people like our big families, too.


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## Tim/South

We are headed on a road to China.






http://qz.com/90764/what-happened-to-tank-man-chinas-most-famous-tiananmen-square-protester/

Mess with the administration and you show up missing.

Hundreds, probably thousands were killed.


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## JD3430

Tim,

the dont even need a freakin battle tank to destroy you....soft intimidation from the IRS works just fine!!!!

Just ask the tea party organizations!!!!


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## Tim/South

When Holder ruled the President had the right to kill American citizens with out a trial I knew we were in trouble.

What has me buffaloed is there does not seem to be a media uproar. Had Bush or any other President received that ruling there would have been marching the streets.

I know the mainstream media is liberal. Has been for years, nothing new. I can read the opinions from those outside our borders and see where their news and point of view is coming from.

Conservatives are labeled KKK if they stand up for equality or justice.


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## JD3430

Tim/South said:


> When Holder ruled the President had the right to kill American citizens with out a trial I knew we were in trouble.
> 
> What has me buffaloed is there does not seem to be a media uproar. Had Bush or any other President received that ruling there would have been marching the streets.
> I know the mainstream media is liberal. Has been for years, nothing new. I can read the opinions from those outside our borders and see where their news and point of view is coming from.
> Conservatives are labeled KKK if they stand up for equality or justice.


It just goes to show you how the liberal biased media spins and protects their liberal socialist heroes. 
Obama, Reid and Pelosi can say ANYTHING, and they'll line up right behind them.


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## mlappin

FarmerCline said:


> Lazy people who do not want to work deserve to be and should be poor as they don't do anything to make money. And why should I give one red penny of my hard earned money to help these people that won't help themselves. If the government would quit giving handouts to these people they would either have to work to provide for themselves or do without.


Just seen in our local paper Michigan orchard owners are desperate for help to get the crop picked. I betcha not one soul who has plenty of un-employment left would ever think about picking apples for a living. That tired old saying that we "need" migrant workers is bullshit, cut enough benefits off and people will gladly pick apples instead of starving.


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## haybaler101

mlappin said:


> Just seen in our local paper Michigan orchard owners are desperate for help to get the crop picked. I betcha not one soul who has plenty of un-employment left would ever think about picking apples for a living. That tired old saying that we "need" migrant workers is bullshit, cut enough benefits off and people will gladly pick apples instead of starving.


Yep, thousands of migrants infiltrate my county each year to pick melons while the locals cook meth, smoke dope and live off of the tax payers.


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## swmnhay

*Nieghbor was here yesterday telling me his daughter just started working at welfare office.She is astounded what kind of benefits some are getting.And for what reason.A somalian is takeing 1 class at Jr College for English.And this qualifies him for all sorts of bennies because he is a student.Once these people find a loophole or a way to get a lot of bennies they all do it. *



*By the way he is 64 yrs old!!*

*I've noticed a lot of Help Wanted signs posted in stores,fast food,and Mfg in the area.But our unemployment remains high!!!There is jobs out there if** they would want to work but they are recieveing so many bennies they won't work.*


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## Vol

Speaking of Meth, I saw a nationwide incident map that includes all Meth related crimes from glassware seizures(whatever that is) to actual lab busts. Its a epidemic.....TN is near the top of the list, BUT there is a concerted effort in this state to control/eliminate this disease....Law enforcement goes all out here to investigate all suspicions. Here is a historical incident map of the last several years of Meth crimes. This is a devastating drug that is a total destroyer. If you see a state with significantly lower incidents than its high incidence neighboring states, sometimes this is because Meth is not a priority for law enforcement in that state. Maybe they are just hoping the Meth druggies will all just kill themselves if they let them do it.

Regards, Mike

http://www.justice.gov/dea/resource-center/meth-lab-maps.shtml


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## JD3430

Wow, it's an epidemic in mid west/ upper south!!


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## rjmoses

Personally, I believe everyone should be free to use whatever drugs, etc., they want. But they should also pay the consequences!

Use meth, heroin, etc.? No insurance coverage. Die if you want to, but don't expect me to pay for the cost of getting you healthy (or for your burial).

Smoke? Go ahead, but I'm not paying for your cancer treatments (I'm an ex-smoker of 25 years/3 packs a day.)

Want to be uneducated? Fine. Work a McD's or WallyWorld.

Don't want to work? Good, me either. But I'm not feeding you.

But God help you if you steal, rob, or commit some other crime!

While cutting the hand off of a thief, like they do in some other countries, might seem a bit extreme, it has been proven effective.

Ralph

A tad grumpy this morning. And totally PO'd at Washington.


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## mlappin

rjmoses said:


> Don't want to work? Good, me either. But I'm not feeding you.
> 
> But God help you if you steal, rob, or commit some other crime!
> 
> While cutting the hand off of a thief, like they do in some other countries, might seem a bit extreme, it has been proven effective.
> 
> Ralph
> 
> A tad grumpy this morning. And totally PO'd at Washington.


A short piece of rope and a tall tree also proved most effective not oh so many years ago in our history.


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## slowzuki

The problem with just letting folks free use drugs is they crash their car into you while high, steal your stuff to pay for their addiction, or start dealing themselves to kids etc. It never stays contained to the individual. Too many people addicted like the meth riddled areas and the cost for policing and other public costs starts hitting the non-addicted folks.

Ever watch someone try to quit smoking? Tobacco is only mildly addictive and it makes people crazy trying to quit. Meth and all that garbage is much worse, from reading folks who have beat it they often have to move to a new area of the country where they simply lose all their connections to obtain it. Not everyone can do that. I've also read many can't even talk about it to others years later because it brings back cravings.


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## somedevildawg

Your right so now the government gives them....Methadone.....paid for by......taxpayers

And then you have people selling the Methadone to our kids/junkies in the making......and it started by "giving" and "taking"

I know of people that get huge scripts for these narcotics and opiates.....if you can't afford em....who can....don't you worry your little heart, we will feed that opiate addiction with some mandatory health care because we can't continue to pay for it through conventional means......we've run out of money....don't worry those who led their life the right way will bale your sorry asses out.....I for one am sick of it...


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## rjmoses

slowzuki said:


> The problem with just letting folks free use drugs is they crash their car into you while high, steal your stuff to pay for their addiction, or start dealing themselves to kids etc. It never stays contained to the individual. Too many people addicted like the meth riddled areas and the cost for policing and other public costs starts hitting the non-addicted folks.
> 
> Ever watch someone try to quit smoking? Tobacco is only mildly addictive and it makes people crazy trying to quit. Meth and all that garbage is much worse, from reading folks who have beat it they often have to move to a new area of the country where they simply lose all their connections to obtain it. Not everyone can do that. I've also read many can't even talk about it to others years later because it brings back cravings.


No consequences! You harm someone, steal something, deal....there has to be a consequence! Right now, there are no consequences to misbehavior.

I dare you to go stick you finger in an electrical outlet---there WILL be a consequence! The outlet does not care! But you will! (Well, maybe you will, if you're still alive.)

I quit smoking in 1985, breaking a 3 pack a day habit. It is one of my proudest accomplishments! I still occasionally get the urge, but it passes.

BTW: We are paying, indirectly, to support their habit. So they are stealing from us, we just don't recognize it.

Ralph


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## JD3430

slowzuki said:


> The problem with just letting folks free use drugs is they crash their car into you while high, steal your stuff to pay for their addiction, or start dealing themselves to kids etc. It never stays contained to the individual. Too many people addicted like the meth riddled areas and the cost for policing and other public costs starts hitting the non-addicted folks.Ever watch someone try to quit smoking? Tobacco is only mildly addictive and it makes people crazy trying to quit. Meth and all that garbage is much worse, from reading folks who have beat it they often have to move to a new area of the country where they simply lose all their connections to obtain it. Not everyone can do that. I've also read many can't even talk about it to others years later because it brings back cravings.


No your wrong. Tobacco is not "mildly addictive". In fact, some studies say its harder to quit than heroin.
Glad I never started tobacco habit.....or heroin. Lol
My uncle died from emphysema. Even 10 yrs after he "quit", he could still be caught cheating once in a while. Even when he knew it would kill him.

''Heroin addicts say it is easier to give up dope than it is to give up smoking,'' says Dr. Sharon Hall, a psychology professor whose research at the University of California's San Francisco medical school centers on methods of curtailing drug abuse.

LIKE HEROIN, NICOTINE IS AN alkaloid found in plants. The alkaloid kills insects by disrupting their neurotransmitters, substances released by the bug's activated nerve cells. It so happens that humans have the same neurotransmitters. What is toxic to the insect, however, is pleasurable to the human when taken in the tiny amounts found in cigarettes."


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## somedevildawg

I would take exception to that analysis by Dr. Hall, I have been to treatment centers more time than I cared to, the reason it's so hard for the addict to quit is because it's seen as much less of a hazard to ones life.....and they are correct, opiates can and should not be compared to tobacco addiction....although similar in root cause, the damage from opiates can be lifelong depending on the amount of abuse, the age, mental ability, etc. However, it is still a "hand to mouth" disease, and yes it is a disease now a days, you can thank the intellectuals for that later....somewhere, someone enabled this person to exist while abusing....maybe that's who needs to pay for it, sure doesn't need to be me....but back to the analysis of Dr. Hall, I can tell you from experience, if you didn't smoke when you went into a treatment facility, (doubtful, just the makeup) you will most like smoke when you come out....most are a smokeathon, go to meetings, smoke, lunch, smoke, rec time, smoke, more meetings, smoke, supper, smoke....it is an epedimic among that group....so to ask them what is harder to quit? Well, they can't get heroine in rehab, (well, yes they can) but they can get all the cigs they want from whoever is the enabler.....

Quit enabling the addict and he/she will either get it together or die by the sword...

Our government has positioned itself as the supreme enabler....


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## somedevildawg

rjmoses said:


> No consequences! You harm someone, steal something, deal....there has to be a consequence! Right now, there are no consequences to misbehavior.I dare you to go stick you finger in an electrical outlet---there WILL be a consequence! The outlet does not care! But you will! (Well, maybe you will, if you're still alive.)I quit smoking in 1985, breaking a 3 pack a day habit. It is one of my proudest accomplishments! I still occasionally get the urge, but it passes.BTW: We are paying, indirectly, to support their habit. So they are stealing from us, we just don't recognize it.Ralph


Congrats Ralph....thats a great accomplishment....I quit smoking over a year ago, although I cheated, I went back to chewing, still I think it's a far cry better than smoking, sure do feel a whole lot better. I know it shouldn't, but it came down to simple economics for me.....I may spend $8 a week on tobacco now, I used to spend $8 a day....I didn't start smoking until I was 30, said I would quit a bunch of times, finally did at 50....thankfully


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## JD3430

Tobacco useage is Legalized drug use is plain & simple. Govt needs the tax money.
Ever been with someone dying for a cigarette? They're unbearable and their withdrawl symptoms are scary.


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## FarmerCline

My granddad smoked ever since he was in high school supposedly and never quit until 1997 when he had a massive heart attack that left him with 30 percent of his heart working....the doctors gave him 6 months to live. Today he still works everyday and has never touched a cigarette since. I have never touched a cigarette and never will.


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## somedevildawg

JD3430 said:


> Tobacco useage is Legalized drug use is plain & simple. Govt needs the tax money.
> Ever been with someone dying for a cigarette? They're unbearable and their withdrawl symptoms are scary.


While I agree that it certainly isn't healthy, it's not legalized drug use, any more than coffee is legalized drug use....do you suppose the Gestapo gov should make it illegal? I've never seen or heard of someone mugging someone to get a cig, or DUI on cigs, etc. while it may be a social ill, and we taxpayers are paying for others to smoke, it's not quite as plain and simple as narcotics, meth, heroine,coca in, or opiates.....these drugs rob a person of their soul....families disintegrate, women sell themselves, children grow up in awful circumstances....these things don't happen when a person is addicted to cigs....he harms himself/herself unless of course a health matter crops up and causes problems financially....

People don't die or commit crimes for want of a cig.....and their withdrawal symptoms while uncomfortable, are not life threatening....the same cannot be said for "drugs"


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## FarmerCline

somedevildawg said:


> While I agree that it certainly isn't healthy, it's not legalized drug use, any more than coffee is legalized drug use....do you suppose the Gestapo gov should make it illegal? I've never seen or heard of someone mugging someone to get a cig, or DUI on cigs, etc. while it may be a social ill, and we taxpayers are paying for others to smoke, it's not quite as plain and simple as narcotics, meth, heroine,coca in, or opiates.....these drugs rob a person of their soul....families disintegrate, women sell themselves, children grow up in awful circumstances....these things don't happen when a person is addicted to cigs....he harms himself/herself unless of course a health matter crops up and causes problems financially....
> People don't die or commit crimes for want of a cig.....and their withdrawal symptoms while uncomfortable, are not life threatening....the same cannot be said for "drugs"


 Pretty much my feelings exactly except I will add that a few crimes do happen because of people wanting cigarettes....for example at my granddad's gas station every now and then we catch a person trying to steal a carton of cigarettes....but stuff like that happens with just about everything, candy, coke, and tools. That does not compare to the crimes that happen because of dope.


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## JD3430

There's underworld crime with tobacco. Untaxed cigarettes. theres so much disease, health problems, etc caused by them. 
No I guess I don't want govt intervention. I hate government except for national defense, parks and major roads. 
Smoking killed a lot of people I really care for and I knew they were helpless to quit. Watching my uncle on oxygen then taking a smoke break was really bizarre.
In the end, the took their own lives, but the fact that smoking existed as a habit sure didn't help. Doesn't compare to illegal drugs, but I do firmly believe tobacco has addictive drugs contained within that cause addiction, needless expenses and health problems to the victim and those trapped in cars and houses with them. 
Now that some states allow marijuana useable, I guess they have determined it is not harmful, either, so WTH do I know......lol


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## swmnhay

somedevildawg said:


> People don't die or commit crimes for want of a cig.....and their withdrawal symptoms while uncomfortable, are not life threatening....the same cannot be said for "drugs"


Well there has been a few burglaries I recall where all they got was some pop money and 10 cartons of cigs.10 cartons over $500 here.They could of resold them for drugs??And yea I would bet they were drug users also.

Meth around here is fairly bad also.I've seen some totally ruin their lives over it.Not just kids either.


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## slowzuki

I can't recall the numbers but its something like a buck or two a day to treat people with methadone, (this is NOT the same a meth cooked in labs btw, its for getting people off heroin and morphine) vs 40K a year to keep them or jail or rolling through the courts several times a year.

Yes people can overdose on it but its almost not addictive compared to other opiates.



somedevildawg said:


> Your right so now the government gives them....Methadone.....paid for by......taxpayers
> 
> And then you have people selling the Methadone to our kids/junkies in the making......and it started by "giving" and "taking"


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## somedevildawg

slowzuki said:


> I can't recall the numbers but its something like a buck or two a day to treat people with methadone, (this is NOT the same a meth cooked in labs btw, its for getting people off heroin and morphine) vs 40K a year to keep them or jail or rolling through the courts several times a year.Yes people can overdose on it but its almost not addictive compared to other opiates.


So it's cheaper to keep them on drugs.....so lets keep them on drugs.....does that sound like a rational plan? How about, give them all they want of Morphine, maybe 10 oxycoden a day will do the trick....I think that's the cheaper way out....just facilitate an overdose....what do ya think, cures the social ill right....no body gets hurt except the addict.

Slowsuki let me tell you the numbers you need to worry about, most get methodone for life now, it's not used as a way to get people off of heroine any longer, that's the way it started, that's not what it has morphed into....but the numbers don't lie, most heroine and opiate abusers have no luck getting off of either drug while using methodone, it was made to ease the withdrawal symptoms of abusers, nowadays they use suboxone (sp), it contains a chemical that promotes the dopamine drop from the brain receptors, it is now used and a much better drug than methodone. The bottom line, most are not going to get off of heroine, those that do, usually have had a lifetime of screwing up, their body breaks down and their "life" is a shell of what it was before the addiction. There are some who beat the addiction....I'm purty sure the government had no hand in "fixing" them......the only way they will beat the addiction is to give up all their worldly ways and allow "God", whoever that may be to that person, to take the wheel and take control of their life. Even those will hear and feel the lingering effects for perhaps the rest of their life.

Once again, if you live by the sword, you will most likely die by the sword, even if it is self impaled....methodone and the government is not the answer...


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## slowzuki

I can only tell you that the methadone program in a local city of about 200,000 has cut the property crimes (thefts, b&e) to something like 1/4 of what it was before and costs less than one police officer. The drug related crime is also way down. Given the line up is in public near the business centre they don't get a lot of people wanting to stand in line that don't need help.


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## JD3430

I know this is not a revelation to most of you, but I finally came to the realization that we'll never have enough responsible people to elect a responsible government again......ever.

We just have too many dope addicts and people on the dole.


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> I know this is not a revelation to most of you, but I finally came to the realization that we'll never have enough responsible people to elect a responsible government again......ever.
> 
> We just have too many dope addicts and people on the dole.


Simple.Drug test to vote or to get any sort of welfare.


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## JD3430

swmnhay said:


> Simple.Drug test to vote or to get any sort of welfare.


Anything that's up for a vote will go the liberal socialist way. 
Like I said, there's too many dopers and dolers for that!!

I hope I'm wrong, but I wouldn't bet on it.


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