# Scathing Letter to REAP Coordinator



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

As we are about to build our new barn, one of our biggest costs is in keeping stock tanks ice free here in Maine. Add in 10 more stock tanks at 1500 watts apiece, churning 24 hours a day, in the state with the highest electrical costs in the nation, and it is easy to see why we came up with a geothermal system that would keep our stock tanks ice free. It would even be cheap to do, so when we were approached about a Rural Alternative Energy Program I had the highest hopes.

Nope, we do not meet the cost requirements...we were too LOW in cost!

They loved the idea, they just did not like that it was not an off-the-shelf commercially available product, and cost $250 per water tank; we needed to be at least $10,000.

The thing of it was, they would gladly pay for an $80,000 windmill at our farm, or a host of other things, but my wife and I did not want to take advantage of tax-payers, we only wanted what we would rightfully use, and help us be productive and kick food onto the national food chain; no more, no less.

The kicker is, the reimbursement is only 25% so the farmers that are funded are the ones who really don't need it. Needless to say I was a bit agitated. Perhaps being up all night due to a blizzard and lambing season did not help, but I fired back a scathing email. It down right angers me. In the National Farm Bill there is only 1% that is available for conservation and so many are vying for it, it is silly to fund a program that continues to hurt low income farmers through the downward spiral that is the current electrical pay-per-killowatt system. Here is my response letter! Keep in mind their replay was something like, "I hope you understand, but we cannot fund your project..."

*Dear REAP,

I understand; it is NOT okay, it is just that I have long understood the travesty of the current alternative energy situation. Until the way electrical usage is changed via the pay-per-killowatt system, no real change will come about.

Sadly, people like my Uncle who have exorbitant amounts of money to spend, qualify for cost-share programs and rebates, and obtain them, while the ones with low income are unable to due so. As his energy bills are drastically reduced, the financially struggling end up paying more per kilowatt since it costs Central Maine Power just as much to maintain the lines no matter how many kilowatts are pushed over them. With the Public Utilities Commission increasing electrical rates to compensate Central Maine Power to maintain their portion of the grid, those who can afford efficiency and alternative energy are motivated even more to do so. With Central Power making even less money because of the reduced kilowatt usage, rates continue to climb yet again. Its a downward spiral leaving the fiscally strapped even more burdened; and yes small farmers especially.

I was hoping the REAP Program would help in ending that situation, but I can see its merely government bureaucracy at its worst teeming with overreaching mandates that hinder and not help. Due to the limited amount of funding for farmers as is, rather then fund a program that caters to those that can already pay for their energy costs, I will contact my congressmen to try and eliminate some over-reaching mandates of this program. To be frank, 25% is a pretty low implementation percentage, and until the REAP Program approaches similarities like the USDA-NRCS EQUIP Program, it will not help those farmers who need the most help.

Sadly I lacked the time already put into this endeavor as I am super busy, however now it will take even more time as I try to get this program defunded through the proper channels. This is not about not being funded for a particular project, it is about a program that does not help those whom congress intended it for.

Regretfully,
Rutted Field*


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

It reminds me of a story;
A rich guy approaches a nice looking young gal and asked if she will do him a "favor" for a million dollars. She relents and says that she would. He then asks if she would do the "favor" for five dollars. She gets huffy and says "what kind of person do you think I am??!"; he replies "we established THAT with the first question, now we're negotiating the price"

If I understand, you're upset because the government won't give you money that you feel that you should have?

You do realize that the government neither earns nor makes money from its endeavors?; therefore, it only has money that it takes from another person or entity by force or threat of force (they will jail me or take my stuff if I don't pay taxes). The money, for which you are upset for being denied, rightfully belongs to the person that worked for it. Just because the gummint does the "dirty work" taking the money makes the recipient no less culpable in my opinion.
For my liking that is WAAAY to close to forced servitude (AKA "slavery" as it is taking the wages or work of another man against his will); it prolly ain't in keeping with Commandment numbers 8 (don't be takin nuttin that ain't yourn) and 10 (don't be eyeballing your neighbor's goodies...anyone else's for that matter).

I've also heard the argument similar to "if I/we don't take it, someone else will" from farmers at the coffee shop; ain't that the same argument you heard from a lot of looters in Ferguson? Looting is looting and there is no moral distinction; some break the windows themselves and some would rather the gummint to it for them.

I've also heard farmers tell me something similar to "if it wasn't for (insert program here), I couldn't make it"; I respond "then maybe you shouldn't."



RuttedField said:


> I'll be honest with you guys, I am not rich .../ The numbers look good because Katie and I are debt free right now





RuttedField said:


> Around here we have "Kubota Farmers", they got 3 acres of land, 2 goats and an apple tree and then go out and buy a 85 hp Kubota tractor or something crazy and generate some sappy sounding farm name like "Morning Meadow Farm."
> 
> Jeesh,,,
> 
> I have a Kubota myself, but I got several hundred acres......


Rut, you stated you are debt free with several hundred acres and some pretty nifty toys. If it's such a valid need and is cost effective, you shouldn't have a problem spending you own money on it. Please borrow against your assets and let me keep what I work for.

Sorry if I made a bunch of people mad, but (1Timothy 5): And besides, no one knows who either of us are... so it kinda IS private through anonymity. It may also apply to others and give a moment of self reflection.

Ain't nobody gotta answer to me in this life or the next, but it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle etc....Mark

PS Also, if you're curious what your neighbors rake in with their looting, this'll make you take up drinkin and look at their new truck and new equipment with a whole new set of eyes.

https://farm.ewg.org/search.php


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

I did some research a couple years ago it amazed me the number of grants that can be had. Like you said it appeared the recipients were not those in real need of them.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

glasswrongsize said:


> PS Also, if you're curious what your neighbors rake in with their looting, this'll make you take up drinkin and look at their new truck and new equipment with a whole new set of eyes.
> 
> https://farm.ewg.org/search.php


That is a very interesting site. I see they don't show when you pay back the money if you back out of a program. A lot of money has moved through this area and to people you would never think would get any. I saw some people I know that were receiving animal subsidies while in high school.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I agree Rutt, that is a crazy system, unsustainable by anyone other than the gubmint....
All of these "programs" are welfare, plain and simple. Some have intentions to do one thing, some have intentions to do another, but they never calculate the unintended consequences of their welfare money, never.....
For three years running the local extension service called me in to get a check for a "cotton base" I had on a farm I bought....told em I didn't want it  until it ran out....about 1800$ worth. Now bear in mind, I had been working with the extension office with converting this "cotton base" to a Bermuda hay field. So for three years they tried to pay me not to plant cotton, even though they knew I had no intentions to plant cotton.......waste
Now I understand why they do it.....no programs on cotton now....a few years ago (4?) cotton was over 1$....folks were going back into the fields and cleaning up the fields, something that is never done here....unless cotton is trading above $1  so what happens next year? Everybody and their brother plants cotton.....last year it ended at .67, year before that .65, before that .63....that's about the cost to grow it. Farmers can and will be their own worst enemy.....


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

I see that I made that list. NRCS came along with their underground irrigation pipe offer and I took them up on it. Of course they only paid a percentage, and I came up with the rest out of pocket.

You are correct about that being an interesting read. Now I know how the big guys are the big guys.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Sorry GlassWrongSize you got me figured wrong and are stereotyping me into a category that is not warranted. Do not be sidetracked by the fact that it is a government entity, just look at the faults within the program that I am pointing out.

The whole purpose of the program is to help initiate alternative power for those that cannot afford it. Because of the way energy is currently billed on a usage basis, and the low percentage of available funds, it only hurts those unfortunate. Not just me...everyone struggling to pay their bills all across this country. Re-read my post again and hopefully you can see why energy..particularly electricity...is in a downward spiral.

I can get a $80,000 windmill through this program, but why would I want to? I don't need it, I only need to reduce my operating costs so I can be more viable. The woman also said there was people telling her there was an issue with stock tank deicing causing their own hardships, so she sees my plan, loves it, but because it does not cost enough it cannot be funded? That is stupid. A small problem for a large amount of farmers is a big problem collectively. My whole point here is, it doesn't take throwing a lot of money at an issue to solve it, it takes creativity. In this program, that is lost.

The way to tweak this program so that it would help those that could benefit the most...beginning farmers and financially strapped, would be to administer it more like the USDA-NRCS EQUIP Cost Share Program. Higher pay out percentages, better scoring parameters, and criteria developed by local input.

As for your rant, I have heard this a lot. I even have family members who SWEAR they never took a dime from the government and then you look it up online (every dollar they give out is public record so you can see who got what and when) and they are #9 on the list for my town here. It will actually shock you what people take in farm subsidies, and sadly welfare is not considered public information so no one can see that, but farmer subsidies are; kind of a double standard if you ask me, but I digress.

Here there are three kinds of farmers:

1). Those that do not take any government program, struggle and complain about it. (Most claim this and still take money secretly)

2). Those that farm according to whatever is being doled out for grants and cost share programs, never having a real farm plan, just farming as long as the farm payouts last

3). Farmers that look at government programs that will help them from struggling so much, evaluate the program carefully and make an informed choice.

I am most definitely the third, and I think most farmers should be. As long as the program fits where you are trying to take the farm, I see no reason not to investigate how it can improve your farming operation.

I worked with a guy down to the shipyard that went on a rant against farmers who take money from the government and then a few weeks later was telling me that he went down to the USDA-NRCS office and he was not eligible because he was a self-sufficient type homeowner and not a farmer. So that as the real problem, it was not that he was not willing to apply, it was that he was not eligible.

I have no issue with people who want to provide for themselves...I wish more people would, it is a lofty goal and they would see the hardships farmers face and be more empathetic, but a person like that should not take government money and only feed themselves. Now if farming was not the MOST heavily regulated industry in the USA, where our prices are not dictated by the market, but rather by government controls, it may be a different story, but in order for people to eat, prices must be low. I have no issue with 99-1/2% of the nation who are not subjected to such stringent regulations helping those that feed them. I would rather have kids drink milk then soda any day, figure in what health care costs would be if soda was dramatically cheaper than milk!! Aye, aye, aye...that would be a travesty.

That is why I like the USDA-NRCS EQUIP Program so much, it was developed so that conservation methods could be accomplished on farms in a way that could be afforded. It is not a grant, its a cost-share, and that money is paid back...in time and not money, but should you stop farming, you owe that money back. To me that is a very fair system. The REAP Program only funds though who can already afford it, and is a grant and is not re-paid.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Oh, just so everyone knows, I am #23 in my town of 30 recipients.


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## IHCman (Aug 27, 2011)

I've looked myself up on that site and I can say its not even close to accurate. I've been in an Equip program that payed me more than it shows on that site.


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

You forgot one type of farmer.....

The one that farms in order to effectively reduce his earned income on the yearly tax returns. It is possible to lose money year after year on a farm, and take different depreciation schedules on equipment, in such a way as to reduce the overall tax bill. It is legal, and if done properly it is a fast way to grow net worth.

This isn't possible in an S. Corp, as there is a limit to deductions even though an S. Corp is a flow through Corporation.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

RuttedField said:


> Sorry GlassWrongSize you got me figured wrong and are stereotyping me into a category that is not warranted. Do not be sidetracked by the fact that it is a government entity, just look at the faults within the program that I am pointing out.
> 
> Neither should you be sidetracked that it is a gov't entity. The gov't is not a faceless mass that it easy to steal from...it's @310 million INDIVIDUAL people. I am one of those and am an unwilling participant in paying for YOUR want-list.
> 
> ...





RuttedField said:


> Oh, just so everyone knows, I am #23 in my town of 30 recipients.
> And yet, there are probably others that are not even on the list.


Rut, it is also VERY simple for me too.

My point is: it is my money and I don't want to give it to the gummint for them to give to you. If you WANT them to take it from me...Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's goods rule applies

If they DO take it from me to give to you,... Thou shall not steal rule applies

The volunteering you do for your church is admirable, but if you're working for them for free or a reduced rate and then taking money from the government (me) to buy things that you can't afford, then ACTUALLY, the gummint is the one making your volunteering possible; ergo I am volunteering at YOUR church. Maybe I don't wanna! Maybe I wanna be left with more of the fruits of MY labor so I can do MORE/give MORE to MY OWN church.

Rut, I have nothing against you or your operation and I approached this on a quasi-religious level due your claimed morality. I make no judgment against you, but felt driven to apply my beliefs to your publicized attempt to acquire funds. I couldn't let the moral implications go unspoken. From that, everyone must make their own choice based upon their own relationship with God.

Have a blessed struggle (not wishing a "struggle" upon you, but life IS a struggle.) and pray for your answer.

I can't stress enough...I have no ill feelings toward you; but I am one to say things, that are hard to hear, if my own morals urge me., Mark


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

You have a strange sense of looking at things, I must say.

The role of government (which was an institution of God, one of three things he implemented...

1. Marriage

2. Family

3. Government

is too do collectively what cannot be done for oneself efficiently. In your way of thinking, we should each own a pick up with a plow on it to plow the 2 feet of snow the Northeast got last night from our houses to the store, but that is just plain stupid. It is far more efficient for us to collectively pay taxes and have ONE GUY plow the roads so that we ALL can get to the store. Another example would be the court system, while it is nothing what our forefathers envisioned, just like in Exodus, it would be wrong for one man to judge, God instituted intelligent individuals to rule over society for a reason. That is what you are missing, we are a society and nowhere in the bible does it say we are to live on an island. In fact it tells us to pay taxes and contribute to society.

Another problem with your logic is that while you like to cite gospel, the truth is you are placing your entire existence upon your own deeds and actions, while ignoring other aspects of the bible. The bible is a wonderful book, and while one person can read it and determine from scripture that welfare of any kind is okay according to scripture, another can read it and determine that you should only look out for yourself. Myself, I see the middle road and place God at the center of my life, with him at the helm of my farm. Through him alone it is if this farm makes or breaks it...not MY actions, a pronoun you like to toss around I noticed, but HIS actions. I am not questioning whether or not I should have got the grant or not, I am questioning if the grant is working as our elected officials envisioned.

Now it also says in the bible to never temp God (except in one instance, but that is off topic for now), and so it is stupid to say, "well I'll apply for everything and see what God gives me for grants"...that is downright wrong. But God did give us intellect, and through research and using our noggins, we can avail ourselves to the help that we have been granted to us.

It is indeed true that I live a very debt free life, own my house, and own my equipment, but I paid the price in ways that your probably do not realize. I have never drank, smoked or even tried drugs. That helps with finances, and when I was 19 years old I started building my house, by myself, starting with digging the gravel out of the gravel pit we have, mixing the concrete, cutting the logs and sawing the lumber. There is a lot of work that goes into making a tree into a board suitable for a house...and that is where most carpenters start, at a building supply store. It was also small, a two car garage, 24 x 24 feet. I was laughed at, but while others got their mortgages, and probably 2nd mortgages now...I struggled on with cash and managed to build a 3000 square foot house. It took 23 years, but no one is laughing now! It probably will even surprise you that despite being a 9th generational farmer, I was the first one who actually bought this farm off my parents...it was NOT inherited. It is all about choices and through honest living and hard work, I made some good ones I think.

No job is 100% efficient, no one can ever say "I was busy all day long"...no way. And yet if you are getting paid by an employer, and not working every minute you are getting paid, by your definition, a person is stealing. Not exactly. There is a REASONABLE determination of how much work can be accomplished in a given day; stay above that and you are considered a great worker, but fall short of that and you are considered lazy...and yes, are in essence stealing. The ironic thing is, I could have stayed at the shipyard and actually be held in high regard; a competent welder kicking out the best battleships afloat, but where do you draw the line? We need those ships to be king of the sand pile, but we would have 310 million row boats if everyone had to make their own. No a society is best if people work together. Solomon building the temple is a great example of that concept.

I have been around the block quite a bit, and being on the agriculture boards here, I know those who get subsidies and who does not, and have long determined those that claim they are innocent the most typically have their hand deepest in the till. That does not mean you do, but ultimately it is a self-righteous claim, "I am so much better than you because I don't take government money." Really? It kind of sounds like the Pharisee to me who was praying at the synagogue and said, "Thank goodness Lord I am not like that tax collector over there."

The real question is, by whose standards?

I am not better than anyone, I am just a sinner saved by God who had a great plan for redemption. I would have made sinners jump through a lot of hoops to be redeemed to be honest with you, but his ways are much higher than my ways...

But then in terms of missions work, he works in mysterious ways, and I am just delighted to see people come to know Jesus. I am not about to question him on the details as to how it is carried out. Since every dollar on this planet is his...along with the cattle (and sheep) on a thousand hills, then how could giving money from a government entity that the bible says he is sovereign over, truly be "stealing"?

(Great discussion by the way, I love this sort of thing, farming and God. It really makes you think If I sound upset, I am not. If we all agreed, we would be a boring set of people).


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## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

I just have some thoughts on this. A soap box I guess. Some good discussion on here. I agree that govenment payments are welfare. Fair enough. I never farmed when the government was giving out direct payments , or was I involved for the set aside program where if we had a dry year theyd let ya bale it. I guess I got my start on arc/plc.

I in no way shape or form pencil the government programs into my margins. I hope no one does that. Really scraped so I could buy a farm and did,in 2012. (yes stupid horrible drought year) vertualy no payments from government for 5 years while farming. Oh but yes they doubled and tripled our land tax here and seemed every district in the area built new schools most of which me or my children will ever step foot in. Voted in by people who don't own large acrage. Not only did my land tax go crazy high but So did all my landlords. We all know what that does to rent. out of 5 years they made a payment to me but in return more than took it all back in increased rent and taxes.

So I will say Marc. My welfare did not pay for my pickup truck or equipment. It paid for new schools.

Let's look at this... I took welfare money from you and so did your looting neighbors. Which in return went tenfold into taxes. Which according to my local treasures goes to mainly schools, and 911, senior citizens,townships,mental health, ect. Do any of those apply to you or your family? If yes I guess I'm throwing it right back into your pocket. If no then you know how I feel suplimenting many different areas because of where my land lays.

I know nothing of your operation but if youd like to trade your baler and mower in for a planter and combine so you can buy fancy new trucks I encourage you to do so. It's really not as easy as it seems. Hay and straw buys the pickups here. Maybe one day it will be the grain side of things again but not for awhile. Row crop side of things is so cut throat. That's why I enjoy baling, I guess no one wants to work that hard.

I've seen that site before. I don't like how they include conservation payments. They are paying for us to leave acres go . also what is it worth to be forced into giving up any and all information to the government to manipulate our markets. Also epa slaps all kinds bs on livestock producers who are already operating in a down market . if they want people to stay in business equip is a cheap way to help producers


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

RuttedField said:


> You have a strange sense of looking at things, I must say.
> 
> *I agree; it comes from LOTS of reflection and some age. It wasn't too many years ago and my thoughts weren't strange but abortion and being gay was.*
> 
> ...


Mark

PS, most (if not all) of the government services that you mentioned (snow removal and battleships) are Constitutional and are within the 18 enumerated powers. Taking money from the citizenry and giving to a for-profit business is not.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I think it really depends on whether or not you are a full-time farmers with no other income. If I had nothing but a farm, there is no way I could make it without subsides.....the market is what it is and food is too cheap in this country to sustain farmers.....so unless the food costs rise, sadly the subsides will continue......and for good reason. If food costs rise, so does welfare, food stamps, school lunches, etc....pay it one way or another.

Btw, I wouldn't equate this to stealing....it's definately not stealing from me, the gov already got their money from me, it's not mine any longer. I don't like it but stealing is a bit of a stretch....


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I agree SomeDevilDawg, Jesus said "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's", not just implying, but outright saying there is his portion, and God's portion alternatively. I am pretty sure the church detested this commandment when they had to give money to Nero who was taking Christians, dipping them in tar and burning them alive. Yet during that time Paul wrote, "submit to authority..."

I also think there is a huge difference in the terms "entitled" and "eligible", which is why I love the English language so much, vocabulary is so exacting. Entitlements are Federal Programs like Social Security, Unemployment and Medicare because people have been forced to pay into the system. Eligibility is different because it means the elected body...right or wrong...has decided there is a need for society, and if certain program requirements are met, a person can obtain funding.

While some want to turn this into a government-aid-is-wrong debate, the reality is, that was not my intention of this thread. My disgust with this program is that the program requirements unwittingly undue the mission of the program.

Interestingly enough, our Agriculture Commissioner in December challenged the Soil and Water Conservation District here to "share our farming experiences" because he saw a need for beginning farmers. I took that to heart and have really been endeavoring towards that; at church, at that Christian Camp, in Moldova, at a local Environmental College, etc. I always was worried that if I presented my ideas on better ways to farm, others with more money, more land, more resources would end up being my competition. After Commissioner of Ag talked though, I realized I was being selfish, God alone would allow my farm to thrive or struggle. Financially it has been a tough winter, but personally, I am really encouraged. I love helping people.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

somedevildawg said:


> I think it really depends on whether or not you are a full-time farmers with no other income. If I had nothing but a farm, there is no way I could make it without subsides.....the market is what it is and food is too cheap in this country to sustain farmers.....so unless the food costs rise, sadly the subsides will continue......and for good reason. If food costs rise, so does welfare, food stamps, school lunches, etc....pay it one way or another.
> 
> Btw, I wouldn't equate this to stealing....it's definately not stealing from me, the gov already got their money from me, it's not mine any longer. I don't like it but stealing is a bit of a stretch....


Now Dawg, there you go; ruining an otherwise perfectly good argument.  Hell, I don't know that I believe it is stealing either... but I can make the argument for it, and when broken down to its elements, the argument is hard to beat. There's been a lot of people mention a lot of things on here about different gov't programs; I picked Rut to "pick on", NOT because I think he's a bad guy, but because I feel that he's a GOOD buy...a real good guy.

Dawg, I agree that a lot of farmers "couldn't make it" without the gov't and THAT'S by design.

In the past, people who needed welfare used what they needed and got back to work...no more, as there's no stigma...it's entitlement.

In the past, people took care of their own health insurance but now think the gummint is the answer

The list goes on and on of how the gummint has forced the majority of the population to be dependent upon it.

I could go on for hours on the economical side of this for hours! I like to discuss economics nearly as much as religion. ...and farm subsidies are fairly far down on the list of they ways the gummint manipulates the free market and the unintended consequences (or INTENDED consequences...depends on how much you trust gummint) of gov't programs ranging from NAFTA to TPP to CRP to regular ol' Welfare to EPA to USDA to...you name it.

I could look down my nose at the local BTO who's household got @5 mil according to the site...I bet the OTHER gummint programs (EPA etc...) has cost his farm as much or more than he has taken it. Heck, look at RUT...he's fighting to clear ground; the the EPA (or whatever...I can't remember exactly) says he can't REMOVE stumps, but CAN let them rot down????!!! That gummint rule has prolly cost him more than he will gain from his request for an ice-free waterer.

I picked on Rut for two reasons... I knew he could and would hang in there and debate with me (I also knew I had to take a hard-line black-and-white stance to stand a chance at "winning" the argument). I also hoped that his answers would be rooted in religion as I like to discuss religion/ideas/gummint with people who have faith.

This site (HT) is an exchange of ideas and it's always good for me to have my thoughts/ideas challenged; I like the challenge. If you only argue with people that agree with you, your argument (even though you may be right) will never get any stronger.

I hope (and think he does) Rut takes this for what it is...a debate and exchange of ideas in which both of us can learn something about ourselves; and give the readers (members and lurkers alike) something to ponder while mowing hay or raking.

HIGHEST REGARDS to ALL, Mark

PS, Just to get back to my ol' crabby self (sorry for letting my softer side show there for a minute), I do rowcrop some and when I bought this farm, I had to go to the USDA office to sign something so that the current tenant could get his subsidy for the beans that were already in the ground here. The USDA, aside from signing for the OTHER GUY'S subsidy, wanted me to sign up; I declined. They got snotty and indignant with me trying to make it seem compulsory that I sign up for their services. I've still never been back in that office. For me and my operation, I don't know if it's more of a "stealing" thing or a "ain't getting in bed with the gummint" thing or a....

PPS, I was writing this off-line on a Word program and when I pasted here, I was notified "New reply added" and see that it was yours Rut. I will give it a read after a bit...honest and no-BS, I ain't read it yet....and give you a reply. Til then....


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

If a farmer took every dollar he could get from a government program they would never come close to getting their tax dollar investment back.

There is a complete difference is a tax payer getting some return on their investment compared to welfare. food stamps and cell phones. Those people are a drain on society and provide nothing.

The U.S. citizen has the most affordable food in the world.

I was raised to fly under the radar, do not let the government know your business. In truth, the government knows anything about any of us they want to know.

I can guarantee if NRCS comes up with a program to cost share on reseeding our hay fields and pastures killed by this drought then I am going to apply.

Our state has a small mill tax to help with Ag. Every 4 years they will help with the cost of chemicals to spray invasive weeds. Some call that a hand out. I see it as the government finally using their brains. They get the spraying of invasives done for free by the farmer and at half the cost of the chemicals. There is more money in that fund than will ever be spent on anything Ag.

If a person is working and paying taxes, and especially if they are part of the cycle providing cheap food, then what help they receive is not welfare. It is a return on their investment.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Rut, back on track with me being the bad guy/antogonist... 

I always took the "Render unto Ceasar" admonishment a little bit different. I never did think of it as a portion belongs to Ceasar and a portion belongs to God. For Jesus to have meant THAT, he would have been conceding that it didn't ALL belong to God and that Ceasar was somewhat equal to His Father in that he (Ceasar) was the true co-owner with God. Conversely, I always took it as an admonishment to realize the difference between worldly and Godly things and NOT to "withhold" worldly possessions or requirements while using God as an excuse. I also don't believe that Jesus did not intend for his disciples to quit preaching against any of the evils of Ceasar. I think they (and us) were meant to continue to preach against the evils, but submit to the authority of Ceasar or Nero... They (Paul, et al) were submitting to God's will of preaching things that the gov't-of-the-time did not allow; they also submitted to their own imprisonment and martyrdom. They "gave unto Ceasar" what was worldly...their heads, their meager wealth, etc...but "rendered unto God" their Godly acts and Soul. I don't take it as wealth being something that "belongs" to Ceasar AND God; I take it as God clearly stating the trap of an unhealthy (for the soul) quest to have a claim-to or desire-to-have Earthly wealth.

I apologize for turning this into a "gummint aide is wrong" debate...to a certain extent, I do understand your argument about the aide. I still think, from an economics or gummint point of view, the aide is wrong. BUT, the need for aide is a symptom of a much larger problem created by gummint meddling in economics and choosing winners and losers by taking from one group and giving to another.

Mark


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm curios to the economics of the windmill.80K for a house and 10 fountain drinkers seems extreme.

10 drinkers seems like alot for the size of operation.You could have alot of pens IDK.

1500 watts seems extreme,mine are 500 watt


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Ya know I was thinkin about this today as I was out delivering hay....mind gets to wandering, kinda like during baling hay  (don't act like you don't know what I'm talkin about...) we don't have but a handful of dairies left down in this neck of the woods but how does that market play ball? I know I hear a lot about the price of milk and not being able to sustain etc....and I believe most of it, but how do the subsidies work for those guys? I ask because during the drive I went past one of our few dairies....they don't seem to be hurtin....6800 head and I saw at least 20 tanker trucks lined up and forage growing for hundreds (if not 1000's) of acres, Krone equipment throughout.....(I would too, think super M, they had it..)
Obviously this is a BTO but I'm bettin they are a BTSS (big time subsidy sucker  ) as well.....


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## bbos2 (Mar 20, 2015)

Yes it definitely makes you wonder dawg. I thought it was pretty comical few years ago when the farm bill was going to expire. No one cared. But as soon as news hit that milk prices in store would double people were completely outraged and all of a sudden farm bill was important.

I do enjoy the discussion on here. I really wouldn't mind if farm subsides went away. Like I hinted to before it all gets bidded into land rent anyways and it might only be available once in 5 years. Whole different conversation on crop insurance but at least whole farm crop insurance can be had by any farmer or livestock producer. it's not directed towards 1 sector of ag

subsidies keep food prices lower for everyone imo. Someone made a comment that if people weren't paying taxes to support subsides theyd have more money for food. I repectfully disagree. People never expect to pay much for food. I guess We as farmers owe society cheap good food.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

And that brings up another thing my mind wandered onto whilst driving 3 hours (or hour as y'all might say  ) ....I was running purty hard because I was behind schedule (another story, seems my charge air wanted to separate on the 6.7 today, easy fix) and had forgotten to eat lunch....when I get too hungry I get kinda nauseated, started feelin kinda bad and thought, hell I ain't ate breakfast or lunch and it's 2pm. I started thinking to myself, what happens to a society when famine happens....Ima bettin it gets real ugly, real quick


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

We lost a lot of dairy farms (my families included) when the farm subsidies for New England Dairy Farmers changed. We got a lot of grief from other farmers because our subsidies were higher, BUT it costs a lot more money to have a dairy farm here, our growing season is a lot shorter after all.

We used to have 5 dairy farms in my extended family, now we are down to 1. But the government said they are now moving back to regional subsidies instead of national subsidies which only makes sense. It is different here and a one size fits all doesn't work with shoes, and it surely doesn't work with dairy farms.

The biggest issue was, the current dairy farm subsidy program was based on bought feed, not at all taken into account of that in some regions like New England, feed is produced on farm.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

The Maine Milk Commission sets the price of milk, and somehow knows the future because it tells the farmer what they will get paid 6 months in advance. Anyway the Maine Dairy Farmer's got together and had a math professor look at the VERY complicated math formula that they used to derive their formula. He concluded that it was incomplete, there was not enough of a math equation to make it work, meaning they were making up the number at whim. He said that in estimating the missing numbers, he concluded that they were low but $1 a hundred weight.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> I'm curios to the economics of the windmill.80K for a house and 10 fountain drinkers seems extreme.
> 
> 10 drinkers seems like alot for the size of operation.You could have alot of pens IDK.
> 
> 1500 watts seems extreme,mine are 500 watt


She said it was based on the windmills they buy because I suggested a 5KW one like my Uncle, but she was like, "Gosh no, that is small, the ones we buy are much bigger." I am sure it accounts for all the electricity used. She also worked on the big windfarm near my house, so she knew I was in an ideal location for wind. We were going to have (3) of those mega windmills here but the town made an ordinance against it. :-(

Yes a lot of pens. Most of the time sheep can be one big happy flock, but we have sustained quite a few deaths by lambs being trampled. This time of year...during lambing season, the sheep are divided by how big their lambs are. First ewe and lamb. Then 5 ewes and their lambs. Then 10 ewes and their lambs. Then 25 ewes and their lambs, etc. This requires a lot of waters with thirsty lactating mothers.

The ones we have are 1500 watts. However they are thermostatically controlled so on warm days they might not run 24 hours a day like they do when it is -20 below (f), but my power bill dramatically goes up in winter. If I could eliminate 10 heated waterers, I would be better off.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> Ya know I was thinkin about this today as I was out delivering hay....mind gets to wandering, kinda like during baling hay  (don't act like you don't know what I'm talkin about...) we don't have but a handful of dairies left down in this neck of the woods but how does that market play ball? I know I hear a lot about the price of milk and not being able to sustain etc....and I believe most of it, but how do the subsidies work for those guys? I ask because during the drive I went past one of our few dairies....they don't seem to be hurtin....6800 head and I saw at least 20 tanker trucks lined up and forage growing for hundreds (if not 1000's) of acres, Krone equipment throughout.....(I would too, think super M, they had it..)
> Obviously this is a BTO but I'm bettin they are a BTSS (big time subsidy sucker  ) as well.....


If the milk price drops below a certain price the subsidies kick in. You can only claim so many hundred weight though. I never hit the limit on my 60 cow dairy and I don't remember what it was at the time. I can tell you that for the years I milked (2000-2003) my payments were $37,000. Sorry not very detailed it's been a few years.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I know the old duffers say to never get involved with the Government, and I grew up with that too. Sadly I watched my Grandfather handcuff what he could do because he did so many shady things trying to avoid the government, which as another has already said, they knew he was doing anyway.

But it was different back in those days, transportation was such that the lamb he produced might be competing with the New Holland, PA market, or the Chicago market, but goodness gracious he was not competing with Australia and Ireland. I know a few years ago when Australia had that drought, they flooded the USA with lamb and our prices fell, and now the United States is going to start allowing the importation of lamb from Ireland. Now I have never been to Australia and don't know their subsidy levels, but I have stayed on a sheep farm in Ireland and they...like much of Europe...is incredibly subsidized. Wean your lambs, get a check. Feed baleage instead of hay...get a check...compared to them, we are not subsidized at all.

So that is what we are competing with today; a global and heavily subsidized market, something our forefathers would have never seen coming!

Then there is the North American Free Trade Agreement. When Country of Origin labeling went into place, suddenly consumers could see where their food was coming from, and Canada and Mexico hated that. They were losing market share so they sued against the North American Free Trade Agreement..and won. Now that is STUPID. When consumers of food have a Judge determine they have no right to know where their food is coming from because of a trade agreement, something is askew!! Again this is nothing our forefather just a generation or two had to deal with.

So when people say, don't get involved with the Government programs, keep in mind the global market we are now in.

Anyone want fresh lamb...strait from Kilimahill Ireland?


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

bbos2 said:


> subsidies keep food prices lower for everyone imo. Someone made a comment that if people weren't paying taxes to support subsides theyd have more money for food. I repectfully disagree. People never expect to pay much for food. I guess We as farmers owe society cheap good food.


While I'm making everyone else mad, I will give you a different take on your thought. :huh:

The actual price of the food remains the same in that x-amount of subsides are required to lower the price by the same x-amount; it's only the *perceived* price of food that is lower. It's like taking money out of your left pocket and putting it in your right pocket.

If everyone were paying exactly the same taxes and ate the same amount of the same food, it would make food (that is subsidized) the same price ("unseen" cost of taxes plus grocery bill). But it does not work that way.

The people who are not paying taxes (47% was the last number floating around) enjoy lower food prices at the expense of the other 53%. The group that enjoys welfare (not the farm-type welfare, but the food/cell phone type of welfare) and food stamps are not effected by the price of food (and subsequently buy hamburger for their dogs because food stamps won't buy dog-food :angry: ) as it is bought for them by the 53% of taxpayers. If the totality of food cost raises, foodstamps get a "raise". That will always leave the middle-class and the "rich" to pay the difference.

Somewhere in the equation, there will be a person who pays exactly the same amount in taxes (that is attributable to the USDA) as is saved by lower food prices. He is a net-zero guy (or gal) and is not *actually* getting cheaper food...he may or may not realize that his tax bill is directly attributable to his grocery bill, but his food costs the same as it would without subsidies. He never sees the money that was taken as income tax from his paycheck and only knows (or is ignorantly blissful) that his food doesn't cost as much.

The higher in the tax bracket you climb, the more a person's food costs-if the taxes are included...and there's no honest way to figure food costs without figuring the associated taxes that are paid prior to paying for the food. Everyone below the net-zero guy is getting cheaper food...but at the expense of the ones above the net-zero guy. Can anyone say "wealth redistribution"? Most people on this site recognized wealth redistribution when it dealt with gov't health insurance (Obammy care), but we recognized ourselves as the victims in that one, didn't we??!! In this one, the farmers are the ones on the dole and it's easy to refrain from giving it the ol' hairy eyeball.

The above economical assessment is not complete or all-encompassing, but you get the idea. For starters, it doesn't include the untold dollars that are skimmed off by the gummint agencies up and back down the chain. It also pretends that the gummint's budget is balanced...for those unaware, it is not. The tax-payers (both current and future) are borrowing money from China and paying interest on the loan from their right pocket while only realizing a percentage of that back into their left pocket to pay the grocery bill.
...either from Mao's "little red book" or the "communist manifesto" or "rules for radicals"...one (or all) of those books called for making the population dependent on gov't. The farm bills fit RIGHT in there in the socializing of this Country.

It's like rolling your innerweb, phone and tv all into one "package" and then convincing yourself that your tv is free, but complaining that your phone/innerweb bill is outragious.

BBOS, just something to think about whilst raking (it's so dang boring and mundane anyhow). 

On to another food-for-thought. I'm going to argue with myself on this one as no one else did very vigorously. I threw it out there about the BTOs taking the subsidies while driving new trucks, taking trips, having nice toys, etc... I thought I had good bait, but I musta left some hook showin'  It is WAY easy to look-up what someone took as a subsidy and begrudge them of their toys; it's easy to equate them to someone on welfare and foodstamps and whatnot that can *somehow * still "afford" a super-huge big screen TV (I see it everyday), the best cuts of meat, etc... It's really *not* the same, in that, someone that farms X-million dollar farm and manages everything associated with it, could STILL afford the SAME toys if he were the CEO of the same x-million dollar corp somewhere in another line of work.

The difference is, you see your tax dollars going directly to him because you can look it up on-line. If he were the CEO and was managing Widgets N Stuff, he would get his pay from the profits. In farming, the gummint has DECIDED the profits for us and doles it out to us little cheeping birdies with our beaks open to the sky at full mercy of the gummint. The gummint has you (not YOU... the royal "you") by the short hairs; they might "allow" you to get break-even prices at the elevator, but THEY will decide your profits/in-the-black numbers via the farm bills and programs.

Like it or not, gummint has been in wealth-distribution for YEARS, but it only became mainstream talk with O'Care. The hook has long been set and we're as-good-as on the stringer.

I (personally) COULD rationalize that I'm owed the money for CRP or whatever due to my taxes going towards it, but morally, I cannot take it, so like a good-little sadomasochistic , I'm taking it in the shorts coming and going! But I can't take it with me and I won't have to answer for violating my own conscience. I warned you...I'm more than just-a-little stubborn and somewhat of a contrarian. My handle oughtta tell you that!! 

Great conversation everyone!! While many of us are entrenched in our own ideas of how things OUGHT to work and are staunch in our beliefs, there are many good thoughts exchanged and no name calling. 

73, Mark


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I did not say anything about the farmers with equipment having their hand the deepest in the till because a long time ago I learned it is best not to count other people's money.

Myself, as a Christian, I have nothing. You don't see it on this forum, but on others some members list their possessions, and that is fine, but I simply cannot do that. You, yourself Mark have said I have some "nice toys". Not so, not as a Christian, they are all the Lord's.

When I bought my latest bulldozer, it was on a Wednesday, on a Sunday the camp director of that Christian Camp I volunteer at said, "we are doing a big earth work job at camp and so if anyone has a skid steer, a backhoe or even a bulldozer...". I knew right then why I had a good dozer sitting in my yard. A similar experience with the Wallenstein Log Trailer, I have used it a lot down to camp.

It is not my "stuff", its God's and yet it is a sweet deal, 99% of the time I get to use it. But when the Lord says "Hey Rutt, about that dozer you got..." Yes I must submit and use it for HIS work.

Other farmers with the new trucks and equipment; I have known many who have had things repossessed. It was like when I worked in the office for the railroad in MN. Every Friday the office went out to eat, yet a lot of the people could not swing a $20 lunch because they had a huge house, a lake house, an ATV, 2 snowmobiles...they had everything except money. That is no way to live for me, but if other farmers wish too, so be it.

What I do have is God's grace, and the older I get, the more valuable I realize that is. Yep even when I screw up (which is a lot), the bible promises me he will take care of me. Where else do you get an offer like that?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

RuttedField said:


> Then there is the North American Free Trade Agreement. When Country of Origin labeling went into place, suddenly consumers could see where their food was coming from, and Canada and Mexico hated that. They were losing market share so they sued against the North American Free Trade Agreement..and won.


This is where my opinion will differ.

Mexico and Canada should have never been included in COOL. Cattle from those neighbors have been raised or fed in the U.S. for over a century. They were included in the final draft to ensure COOL would be repealed. Mission accomplished which opened the door for non North American beef to be imported with no label. We, U.S. beef growers and feeders, made big bucks on the neighbors to the north and south. We raised or finished their beef, processed it and sold it back to them. It helped the corn market when we slaughtered 650K per week. Now we are at capacity at a little over 600K.

When the live cattle "imports" from across the line could not co-mingle at any point, the final nail was on the COOL coffin.

JBS Australia shipped billions worth here year before last. JBS Brazil can now ship 2,500 tons per month of fresh beef.

All under the guise of leveling the import playing field.

COOL was designed to be repealed and allow other countries to sabotage us.


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## azmike (Jan 4, 2015)

Watching Trump bulldoze into the economic "war zone" I wonder what he and Purdue have in mind? I think that the grants & guv funding of agriculture will see cuts and at least more scrutiny for receiving taxpayer $$. I am comfortable in the fact that the potential loss of ag money would not affect my biz in the slightest, but as a taxpayer I will applaud realistic controls. I also hope that "Our" team can protect American producers in the markets.

PBS, National Endowment for the Arts, AmeriCorps are headed to the chopping block in the new budget......


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Rut, maybe this will help you understand my trouble understanding you. With the exception of a few lines which I noted to be my words...the following is are ALL words from you in this post.

*&#8230;.which is why I love the English language so much, vocabulary is so exacting.*

*I did not say anything about the farmers with equipment having their hand the deepest in the till because a long time ago I learned it is best not to count other people's money.*

and being on the agriculture boards here, I know those who get subsidies and who does not, and have long determined those that claim they are innocent the most typically have their hand deepest in the till.

Around here we have "Kubota Farmers", they got 3 acres of land, 2 goats and an apple tree and then go out and buy a 85 hp Kubota tractor or something crazy and generate some sappy sounding farm name like "Morning Meadow Farm." Jeesh

Sadly, people like my Uncle who have exorbitant amounts of money to spend,qualify for cost-share programs and rebates, and obtain them

reimbursement is only 25% so the farmers that are funded are the ones who really don't need it.

"well I'll apply for everything and see what God gives me for grants"...that is downright wrong

.

&#8230;.but I paid the price in ways that your probably do not realize.

I have no issue with people who want to provide for themselves....but a person like that should not take government money and only feed themselves.

I even have family members who SWEAR they never took a dime from the government and then you look it up online (every dollar they give out is public record so you can see who got what and when) and they are #9 on the list for my town here.

. It down right angers me. In the National Farm Bill there is only 1% that is available for conservation and so many are vying for it,

*Myself, as a Christian, I have nothing. You don't see it on this forum, but on others some members list their possessions, and that is fine, but I simply cannot do that. You, yourself Mark have said I have some "nice toys". Not so, not as a Christian, they are all the Lord's.*

When I bought my latest bulldozer...

I have a Kubota myself, but I got several hundred acres....

I had a good dozer sitting in my yard.

we are about to build our new barn

my Wallenstein Log Trailer.

own my house

own my equipment

***My words:CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, BUT YOU SENT A "SCATHING LETTER" OVER 2500$??***

*The way to tweak this program so that it would help those that could benefit the most...beginning farmers and financially strapped,*

It is indeed true that I live a very debt free life, own my house, and own my equipment

*The role of government (which was an institution of God, one of three things he implemented...Government*

*God instituted intelligent individuals to rule over society for a reason.*

*&#8230;.government entity that the bible says he is sovereign over,...*

*I am not about to question Him on the details as to how it is carried out.*

They were losing market share so they sued against the North American Free Trade Agreement..and won. Now that is STUPID.

When consumers of food have a Judge determine they have no right to know where their food is coming from because of a trade agreement, something is askew!!

I have no issue with people who want to provide for themselves....but a person like that should not take government money and only feed themselves.

My disgust with this program is that the program requirements unwittingly undue the mission of the program.

They were losing market share so they sued against the North American Free Trade Agreement..and won. Now that is STUPID.

so she sees my plan, loves it, but because it does not cost enough it cannot be funded? That is stupid.

but I can see its merely government bureaucracy at its worst teeming with overreaching mandates that hinder and not help.

*Another problem with your logic is that while you like to cite gospel, the truth is you are placing your entire existence upon your own deeds and actions*

***MY words

Rut, pray tell, tell me what it wrong with basing my "entire existence upon my own deeds and actions (inclusive of how they effect others)? My deeds and actions are the only one's that can banish me to hell. Inclusive in MY deeds and actions, is the duty of asking someone else to reconsider their action that I perceive to be sinful. It is MY job (deed) to point out things to you, that I read, in which you publicizing that I perceive as against God's laws.
After telling you how I feel and explaining, THEN your actions are on YOU.

In reality, I was asking you about your actions and was inquiring of you how you could justify taking the money that was the result of another's labor and was unwillingly given. I did use myself (sorry to bother you with the pronouns of My and I that I was "throwing around") ; but, I wasn't going to throw anyone else under the bus with me. I may be the only person in 310 million people that is an unwilling participant in this wealth redistribution at the hands of our benevolent, beneficent, gummint which works tirelessly at nothing but God's will. ******

*Jesus said "Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's", not just implying, but outright saying there is his portion, and God's portion alternatively.*

****My words

It still confounds me that one who had read any more that THAT single line of the Bible, could think that it means God and Ceasar should share...or each have a portion!

Heck, I don't think YOU believe that Ceasar (a human) was entitled to a portion, and that brings us back to the top and YOUR words***

*Myself, as a Christian, I have nothing...*

Some people hardly have standards at all, some people have been blessed with two sets, Mark


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