# Educate me on seed saving



## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

Hello all, hope everyone has had a successful harvest and for those not done yet, hopefully everything works out for you guys in a timely manner. I know im probably not the first to ponder this, but ive been wondering why there are almost no farmers who save seed to plant the following year. I fully understand the issues of second generation hybrid offspring not carrying the desired traits of the parent generation, as well as the legal issues of saving seed with patented technology. Also I read that gmo second generation seeds can also lose desired traits. What I am wondering though is with margins as tight as they are, would it be cost effective to use seed that i guess would be considered an heirloom variety that would give consistent seed year after year? I understand the yeild would be lower, but I was wondering if anyone has crunched the numbers to see if it would be worth it due to the high costs of seed. I have to imagine that with the precise fertilizing and chemical management we have today that good yields would still be achievable? Please note that I do not grow corn or soybeans so I could be misinformed, just wondering out loud here. Interested to hear everyones take on this, hopefully I have posted this in the right section. Thanks


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

Also please note that im not interested in arguments about morals and opinions on gmos, stricted considering this on an economic and business viability standpoint. I am considering growing a small amount of corn and soybeans to feed my own livestock and am trying to gain knowledge on the seed aspect


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

We have always saved our seed till a better variety has been tried and proven on our farm. If we get a perfect seed crop we will keep enough for many years. Oats, barley, winter wheat and alfalfa seed mainly. Just makes sense for us both economically and for peace of mind knowing we have it if we need it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Corn is a totally different ball game as most of the seed is a single cross of 2 different parent lines of seed.So saving the seed from what you grow doesn't grow the same as what was planted.

There is open pollinated corn that seed can be saved from that will be the same year to year if you save it for seed.That is way corn was grown before single crosses became.The farmer selected the best ears and saved them for seed.

Some public varieties of soybean seed can be kept for own use legally.


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

swmnhay said:


> Corn is a totally different ball game as most of the seed is a single cross of 2 different parent lines of seed.So saving the seed from what you grow doesn't grow the same as what was planted.
> There is open pollinated corn that seed can be saved from that will be the same year to year if you save it for seed.That is way corn was grown before single crosses became.The farmer selected the best ears and saved them for seed.
> Some public varieties of soybean seed can be kept for own use legally.


Any idea what kind of yeild difference there would be? Regarding both corn and beans. Also, the only seed that I have ever bought (alfalfa, oats, timothy) has come from local co-op. As far as I know the vast majority in my area buy their seed from seed dealers in the area, not the co-op(this is mainly an educated assumption). Im assuming to buy seed through one of these other companies you have to contact a rep to make an order? Im totally unfamiliar with this process and I know its probably basic knowledge for you guys, id really appreciate an explantaion of how it works


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

MIHay said:


> Any idea what kind of yeild difference there would be? Regarding both corn and beans. Also, the only seed that I have ever bought (alfalfa, oats, timothy) has come from local co-op. As far as I know the vast majority in my area buy their seed from seed dealers in the area, not the co-op(this is mainly an educated assumption). Im assuming to buy seed through one of these other companies you have to contact a rep to make an order? Im totally unfamiliar with this process and I know its probably basic knowledge for you guys, id really appreciate an explantaion of how it works


corn would be a total flop with saving from single cross corn that is most common today.I would say 99.9% of corn grown today is single cross.

Beans you can get same yield if you did it or the seed co did.Alot is of issues if not handled,stored and cleaned properly.I've grown soybean seed a few times for seed companys.PIA to keep the seed pure from planting to harvesting to storage.

Most co's have a rep that signs up dealers and these could be co-ops,farmer dealers or private retailers.

Some co's are top heavy with reps and paper pushers and that can inflate the price of the seed.They all have to get pd!


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I usually plant Henry Moore corn and have planted Reed's yellow dent; both are open pollinated corn varieties. To me it make sense, because I feed my corn.
The reason that self-feeding is so important to making it work, is the protein levels.

CAUTION, fuzzy math and guestimations ahead!!:

Henry Moore corn runs 14-16% protein ( we will use 14%); I will guess #2 yellow an average of 8%?. That makes Henry Moore have 1.75X as much protein per bushel, so you need nearly twice as much "regular" corn to have the same protein as Moore's. If you could make 200bpa "regular" corn, you need @114 bushels of Henry Moore corn to have the same protein.

WILD guess here, but say... $70 per acre for seed corn???? At 3.50 corn, that's another twenty bushel. We now need 94 bushel of Henry Moore corn to make it work out. I'm sure that there is a fertilizer difference, but you will have to figure it how you want.

Spraying? Can't do the LL, Roundup Ready, etc... with Open Pollinated (that I know of). I do spray 2,4-d at the 4 leaf stage and cultivate as often as haying will allow. There was once a study that I read that indicated that cultivating 3x was the equivalent of applying X-amount of N. I don't remember the figures, but there is SOME fertilizer $$ gain there.

If you feed, it's not too bad of a deal; if you take it to town and sell by-the-bushel, you are going to take it in the shorts, I think.

Back in the 70s there was a blight that did not effect the open pollinated corn, so there's a little something.

If you are selling your critters (such as I do) to the end user, it is another thing you can add to the things you do that might to the non-gmo-type buyer (more dollars in your pocket...heck, I even advertise that mine get Well-Water with no added fluoride or chlorine!!! ...any way you can extract more money from those of them that got it!!!!).

Also, I grind the cob too; my critters like it better wit the cob (smells a little like peanut butter when ground).

.

Here is an old article by the guys that I buy corn from (the first time...kept it ever sense). Good simple folk. The feller with the glasses is blind-as-a-bat. He recognizes me and know my name by my voice. He goes to auctions around here and, when he bids, he quickly flips/hoists his hat in the air. I digress....

https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=25682

A few years ago when we had aflatoxin BAD, the blind one was sorting the good ears from the bad...he could smell it, he said.

Just a few thoughts I put together in favor of open pollinated, I'm sure others can take the rough edges off of my math and/or give reasons that a stacked-trait corn could be better for you.

Mark

Another drawback to Open Pollinated corn, deer, *****, squirrels, etc will walk right by an 80 acre corn field to get to my corn; my yields suffer greatly from deer when a field across the fenceline gets hurt far less. To me, it's just proof that the critters know the deal too!!


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

glasswrongsize said:


> I usually plant Henry Moore corn and have planted Reed's yellow dent; both are open pollinated corn varieties. To me it make sense, because I feed my corn.
> The reason that self-feeding is so important to making it work, is the protein levels.
> CAUTION, fuzzy math and guestimations ahead!!:
> Henry Moore corn runs 14-16% protein ( we will use 14%); I will guess #2 yellow an average of 8%?. That makes Henry Moore have 1.75X as much protein per bushel, so you need nearly twice as much "regular" corn to have the same protein as Moore's. If you could make 200bpa "regular" corn, you need @114 bushels of Henry Moore corn to have the same protein.
> ...


Mark, thats some good info and is very relevant to my situation as I would be using it for my own feed and the increased protein per bu would help greatly as i would be growing on a limited number of acres. Im not particularly interested in getting too involved with chemicals so cultivating would work for me. Sounds like ill have to see if i can locate that variety. Thanks for the reply


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Like the others have said, saving seed from corn would be a disaster if it's a hybrid. Inbred corn yields pretty poor comparatively. Open pollinated is making a bit of a comeback for some, with Reeds, Bloody Butcher, one from Dudek Seeds and a handful of others. Soybean can be saved if it's RR1, not RR2 though as there is still a patent on that for 3 (?) more years I believe?

We used to save our own oats and soybeans seed and clean it ourselves with the fanning mill. That was my winter job when others were polishing their egos playing sports. Even sold a little for replants and set aside acres.

That being said, there's a reason there are things like the Minnesota Crop Improvemnt Assoxiatoon. Their main focus is that people buy certified seed as certified will have higher germination rates, cleaned and very little inert matter/noxious weed seeds.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

stack em up said:


> Like the others have said, saving seed from corn would be a disaster if it's a hybrid. Inbred corn yields pretty poor comparatively. Open pollinated is making a bit of a comeback for some, with Reeds, Bloody Butcher, one from Dudek Seeds and a handful of others. Soybean can be saved if it's RR1, not RR2 though as there is still a patent on that for 3 (?) more years I believe?
> 
> We used to save our own oats and soybeans seed and clean it ourselves with the fanning mill. That was my winter job when others were polishing their egos playing sports. Even sold a little for replants and set aside acres.
> 
> That being said, there's a reason there are things like the Minnesota Crop Improvemnt Assoxiatoon. Their main focus is that people buy certified seed as certified will have higher germination rates, cleaned and very little inert matter/noxious weed seeds.


I beg to differ here. Certified seed will (should anyway) give you a variety of pure seed, it has nothing to do with germination rates. I have bought certified seed with 90% germ and have saved home grown seed with 100% germ. Also if buying certified seed from a different area you risk bringing weed types on your farm that you did not have before. Lots of dryland farmers have paid the price for weeds that come off irrigation fields. Buyer beware and make sure you you keep a sample from every lot you purchase, it just may save you if you buy a seed lot and it's not what it was represented to be.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

carcajou said:


> I beg to differ here. Certified seed will (should anyway) give you a variety of pure seed, it has nothing to do with germination rates. I have bought certified seed with 90% germ and have saved home grown seed with 100% germ. Also if buying certified seed from a different area you risk bringing weed types on your farm that you did not have before. Lots of dryland farmers have paid the price for weeds that come off irrigation fields. Buyer beware and make sure you you keep a sample from every lot you purchase, it just may save you if you buy a seed lot and it's not what it was represented to be.


Here anyway, it can't be sold as certified if it doesn't have a minimum germ rate. Can't recall what it is right now, but I believe it's 92%? Don't quote me on that.

I've never seen seed with 100% germination. It's possible I guess, but any seed seller is gonna never sell it as that to cover their own ass in case it isn't 100%. When we germ tested our soybeans, we did small batches and they we're mostly 95-97%. Saving that same seed another year lowered that germ rate down to 87-91 interestingly enough. Oats seemed to fare better the second year, but there was always more bugs in it, thus more damage and the need for a second time thru the fanning mill.

Saving seed will save you a good chunk of change. Never saved corn so i can't speak as to that. It kept Dad in the black during the 80s when interest was nearing 20%. I don't recall what numbers Dad used for hisncosts on storage and cleaning, but it couldn't have been much more than $1/bushel?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

To have certified public seed you have to plant registered seed and do all the paper work.State guy comes and checks the fields in season for noxious weeds and off types of crop in field.If you replant the public seed it is no longer certified.Germination wouldn't be any worse as years went by off certification.

I raised some Public soybeans and oats for seed in 80's and 90's.Did some private label soybeans in 90's planting parent seed for seed co.

Heck of a difference where the margins are from back then to now on beans.
If beans were $5 a bu after cleaning and bagging retailed for $9 a $4 margin for everything with public seed
Now we are looking at $40 +- margin on traited seed


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MIHay said:


> Sounds like ill have to see if i can locate that variety. Thanks for the reply


The contact info for the Borries boys is in the Farmshow article linked above in my first post. The contact info is still good. Contact them early rather than late. They might recommend something other than Henry Moore (such as Reeds or Krugs) based upon your location.

Call em up and talk at 'em. There just regular hard-workin po' folk with a little niche market. Just live in a little house and work out of an old barn, but have semi trailers (for storage) full of seed corn ready to be shipped out. They ship out nearly EVERY day via Fed Ex/UPS. Some of the nicest people you'd wanna meet.

Last I bought from them was $56 per bushel ...not 80000 seed count...56 pounds of dang corn!!

Mark


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## Uphayman (Oct 31, 2014)

Fanning oats for our own use. Looks like a picture from yesteryear. Actually taken March 2018. Minimal investment. Slow .........it's March, it's OK. Was saving $25/acre , now at about $20.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

glasswrongsize said:


> The contact info for the Borries boys is in the Farmshow article linked above in my first post. The contact info is still good. Contact them early rather than late. They might recommend something other than Henry Moore (such as Reeds or Krugs) based upon your location.
> 
> Call em up and talk at 'em. There just regular hard-workin po' folk with a little niche market. Just live in a little house and work out of an old barn, but have semi trailers (for storage) full of seed corn ready to be shipped out. They ship out nearly EVERY day via Fed Ex/UPS. Some of the nicest people you'd wanna meet.
> 
> ...


i tried a couple bags of some open pollinated one time that was in featured in Farm Show years ago.I don't recall the co or variety.I had plans of chopping it until the neighbor backed out on doing that so I combined it for high moisture corn.Seed was humongous and didn't work well in my White planter with the largest plates.Was extremely tall,as tall as combine cab when harvested it.Didnt stand very well leaving stand until combining,would of been fine at chopping time.Was very wet and mixed with other corn to have it dry enough for silo.Soft,wet kernels really broke up in combine,didn't unload very well out of grain tank.Planter set at 20,000 but ended up with around 16K because seed was to big for plates.I never took a feed sample on it,fed ok mixed with drier corn 50-50.

In all fairness it was sold as a silage corn IIRC.Another neighbor planted it for a few hrs and liked it.Tonnage was good for silage at that population.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

glasswrongsize said:


> The contact info for the Borries boys is in the Farmshow article linked above in my first post. The contact info is still good. Contact them early rather than late. They might recommend something other than Henry Moore (such as Reeds or Krugs) based upon your location.
> 
> Call em up and talk at 'em. There just regular hard-workin po' folk with a little niche market. Just live in a little house and work out of an old barn, but have semi trailers (for storage) full of seed corn ready to be shipped out. They ship out nearly EVERY day via Fed Ex/UPS. Some of the nicest people you'd wanna meet.
> 
> ...


If kernels are huge as Cy suggested, you are getting screwed on a 56 lb. bushel. Big seed corn wii weigh 60-63 lbs for 80,000 kernels, I have planted several varieties like this.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

haybaler101 said:


> If kernels are huge as Cy suggested, you are getting screwed on a 56 lb. bushel. Big seed corn wii weigh 60-63 lbs for 80,000 kernels, I have planted several varieties like this.


I would also question the claim of 12-14% protein in open pollinated most claim around 10.5%

I have test some HMSC of my conventional corn and it was in low 8%


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

swmnhay said:


> I would also question the claim of 12-14% protein in open pollinated most claim around 10.5%
> I have test some HMSC of my conventional corn and it was in low 8%


We don't grow corn for protein anyway, corn is energy from starch, soybeans are for protein.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

haybaler101 said:


> We don't grow corn for protein anyway, corn is energy from starch, soybeans are for protein.


If you were getting 14% you might change your tune on that...


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

8350HiTech said:


> If you were getting 14% you might change your tune on that...


No, because my market buys corn for starch, to make alcohol to send to Kentucky to make their finest or it goes to feed turkeys. Either way, it is not checked for protein level. What we do want for our market is a very hard, dense kernel with superior test weight. I don't like corn under 60 lb. test weight.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

haybaler101 said:


> No, because my market buys corn for starch, to make alcohol to send to Kentucky to make their finest or it goes to feed turkeys. Either way, it is not checked for protein level. What we do want for our market is a very hard, dense kernel with superior test weight. I don't like corn under 60 lb. test weight.


Fair enough but the post is about someone who's feeding it on farm, not distilling it.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

MIHay: Cy (SWMNHAY) and Haybaler101 each make valid points about the shortcommings of open pollinated corn.

The kernels (as Cy mentioned) can be BIG. On some ears, the kernels are a big as a fingernail. I plant with an old 494 planter, pick corn with a one-row picker, and shell my corn (for seed) in a hand-crank sheller, so I had not given consideration to how kernel size may be a disadvantage. I do tend to keep back ears with smaller kernels for seed; I also hand-pick quite a bit of corn prior to picking, I like to save the good early ears for seed...over years, I can shave a few days off of the maturity. I do try to keep ears with similar kernel size so that the planter works better.

The kernels being big (as Haybaler101 mentions) can give you a good solid screwing on buying seed.

&#8230; but just ONCE. After that, you keep your seed. Just working off of memory here, but I was thinking that Leonard told me that a bag of "medium flats" was near 100000 seed count? The biggest kernels may be considerably less than 80k per bushel.

As Cy mentioned, the corn is tall; mine is often 12-14' with the ears being head-high. Also, the stalks are not as stout as the newer corn.

The yield will be considerably less than you could expect out of a "new" seed corn; for feed value returned per $ inputted and per acre, it will be at-best, a wash in my opinion. To me, it's kinda like sawing my own lumber, growing my own hay, building some of my own equipment, etc... I have a little passion for it and enjoy it.

Here is an older Farm Show article (the first one was from 2012; this one is from 1990) that might give you a little insight. Also, if you call them (Borries), they can (and will be happy to) give you pros and cons of the open pollinated corn. I don't reckon they'd mislead you just to sell you corn; if it won't fit your operation, I think they would tell you straight-out.

https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=2928


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Watched some Utube videos and another guy selling open pollinated seed claiming his yields more from his selective harvesting of the plants with multiple ears.He is saying 130-140 bps.

Even if I kept my own seed back at 130-140 bpa I would be making less then I do now.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

swmnhay said:


> Watched some Utube videos and another guy selling open pollinated seed claiming his yields more from his selective harvesting of the plants with multiple ears.He is saying 130-140 bps.
> Even if I kept my own seed back at 130-140 bpa I would be making less then I do now.


My seed corn bill was $110er acre this year, so if I would have saved my own seed on open pollinated, I could have lost $75 per acre over my high priced corn! Nobody ever saved themselves rich.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

haybaler101 said:


> My seed corn bill was $110er acre this year, so if I would have saved my own seed on open pollinated, I could have lost $75 per acre over my high priced corn! Nobody ever saved themselves rich.


I'm surprised you had to feed as much of the open pollinated corn as the normal #2 yellow to get the same rate of gain on your animals. ...all else being the same.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

haybaler101 said:


> My seed corn bill was $110er acre this year, so if I would have saved my own seed on open pollinated, I could have lost $75 per acre over my high priced corn! Nobody ever saved themselves rich.


Yea 130-140 bu corn don't cut it.But on the other hand the highest priced seed isn't nessisarily the most profitable.Where I don't need traited seed I get by with conventional and spend about $40 acre for seed.If I don't need the traits I don't want to pay for them!


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

All excellent points and I appreciate the insight from mulitple perspectives. I think for my specific operation open pollinated might be my best bet, simply because I raise a lot of poultry that get sold directly to consumers and I think the “non-gmo” label might help to bring in a few more bucks and make another selling point, even though personally i wouldnt give a damn myself. From the typical commodity crop viewpoint, it appears that the general consensus is that the yield of a conventional seed crop outweighs the higher input on seed. Im going to look a little harder at the protein aspect of it as well, if I could get a decent amount of protein from the corn in the ration that could also save some $. As haybaler says “no one saves themselves rich”, but it is possible to save yourself to being more profitable. Thanks guys


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

MIHay said:


> All excellent points and I appreciate the insight from mulitple perspectives. I think for my specific operation open pollinated might be my best bet, simply because I raise a lot of poultry that get sold directly to consumers and I think the "non-gmo" label might help to bring in a few more bucks and make another selling point, even though personally i wouldnt give a damn myself. From the typical commodity crop viewpoint, it appears that the general consensus is that the yield of a conventional seed crop outweighs the higher input on seed. Im going to look a little harder at the protein aspect of it as well, if I could get a decent amount of protein from the corn in the ration that could also save some $. As haybaler says "no one saves themselves rich", but it is possible to save yourself to being more profitable. Thanks guys


its the bottom line that counts no doubt.If you can get a premium to make what you do more profitable go for it.Life would be boring if everyone did the same thing.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Makes me think back to the days when the feed mill was pushing High Lysine corn for hog feed. Latest and greatest thing. We put an 80 to it. Let's just say we planted that one year.

Couple years ago I planted Masters Choice. Their claim to fame is floury grain, meaning a softer endosperm, which helps in digestibility. I really liked it but it's a tad spendy. at $200 bag just for RR


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

swmnhay said:


> I would also question the claim of 12-14% protein in open pollinated most claim around 10.5%
> 
> I have test some HMSC of my conventional corn and it was in low 8%


Cy, you were right to be skeptical of my numbers; I was working off of memory and did not intend to mislead. I called Leonard; he said that he had Henry Moore corn test at 11.3% protein (not the 12-14 as I had mentioned, and he said it was one of his higher tests)

I googlered the #2 yaller corn and found that it averages 7.5%; that seems a little low to me, so I will follow my math using the 8% for conventional corn.

So, for feeding purposes ONLY:

Say your ground will make 200bpa corn on $75 per acre of seed input and if only interested in protein as an indicator of feed value and using the above numbers, you would need to make 121ish bpa of Henry Moore corn to be even-Steven on cost-per-pound-of-protein (at $3.50 per bushel corn). A

I can tell you that I will make NO WHERE NEAR 121 bpa with Henry Moore, but my local "post oak" ground is only good for 120-140 bpa on-average for "regular" corn; therefore, I would need to make @65-80 bpa to be even-steven at $75 input conventional seed and "free" saved seed.

It's all relative as to the kind of bpa you can expect with conventional corn. Need to make @70% and a few less according to what seed cost would have cost if it were not free.

Anyhow, you get the gist of how I figure its worthwhileness for me; you will have to decide what you want to do based upon your desired outcome.

Mark

PS, MIHay, I would be cautious claiming "non-gmo" without testing. If you're not isolated and get cross-pollinated, you may not meet "non gmo" with next year's seed. I try my dangedest not to mislead or misrepresent my goods. I advertise just how it is... "open pollinated corn". Kinda makes me chuckle to myself while I am extracting a premium $$ from them. Tell me what hybrid corn is NOT open pollinated?? Iffn it gets pollinated in the field, it IS open pollinated, ain't it?? And "hybrid"...tell me what corn AIN'T hybrid!!!! Corn looks like it does today because it IS a hybrid...ALL of it. It's just a little marketing. I reckon a guy could sell the hell out of gluton-free water iffn he had a mind to.


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