# hillside haying: how much tractor to safely pull baler and kicker wagon?



## deskfarmer (Jul 22, 2015)

Hillside hayers:

I am in the market for a used tractor, and have come across very little information on how much tractor to buy by horsepower as well as weight.

The farm is in Vermont and there's not too much truly flat land. Sometimes we find a spot where things won't roll.

I will be pulling a John Deere 336 baler and a Pequea 8618 kicker wagon, which can hold as many as 200 45lb bales. Maybe more. That's potentially at least 11,000lbs behind the tractor. When you buy a truck, it's very easy to know what is safe to pull. But there seem to be no such guidelines for tractors.

So, hillside hayers, I would love to know what you've pulled on slopes. What's been too small, what's been too big, and what's worked just right.

Thanks.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Unless you're stacking them, you're likely to be getting 130-150 per load, so that reduces your need somewhat. Personally, I'd still prefer at least a 10,000 pound tractor. You can do smaller IF you manage your baling well.


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## FCF (Apr 23, 2010)

Use to pull a NH 570 kicker baler and 18 foot wagon with 125 - 150 bales with a Farmall 544. This was not a 10,000 pound tractor and has 52 PTO horsepower. It worked fine on hilly ground, never a traction or tractor weight problem. Where you have to be careful is with an almost full wagon when going down downhill and/or turning, the baler will not have more weight than the wagon, and may want to jackknife. Had had this happen more than once, most recently when using a NH TL90 on the baler.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

I like at least 75 ponies and 8000 lbs minimum. Personally I run 85 HP and 11,500 lbs on the tractor. I still pick and choose windrows based on a combination of how full the wagon is and the terrain.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I pull a 570 with EZ Trail bale baskets, max load 105 bales, with a 135HP NH TS135A, weight is about 12-13,000lbs. Key for me is a) running 4WD which ties front and rear wheels together and b) planning my route so that I am pulling uphill on the steepest parts.

Running 4WD engaged cause better traction, especially when going downhill. This tends to keep the load from jack-knifing me if the ground is a little slick.

Ralph


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I have a JD 4020 dressed out around 10,000lbs. There are hills around here a wagon with 80 bales on you need to play your cards well. I've got one hill a fully loaded wagon would fall over real easy . One time when I was young and brave had power shift up to 7th gear out of 8 to keep every thing in a strait line going down hill with baler and full wagon I never did that again.

My guess would be 90 hp 10,000lb for two wheel drive tractor or maybe 75hp 8-10,000lbs with 4wheel drive.


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

On our steep hills around here most the guy baling like what your talking about.. it's 100- 140 hp at least 10,000 lbs.. and most the time any more it's f/w/a ... I'am telling the truth here but we got hay fields I've had 3x3x8 big squares roll down when they come out the bale chute..


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I would be very careful on a hill side with a baler. In my younger days I was on top of a full hay wagon, being pulled by a JD 24T baler being pulled by a Ford 3600 and the tractor started getting pushed down the hill by the load. The driver was very experienced and managed to maneuver such that it all stayed straight and came to a stop at the bottom without incident. But I'd say if truth be told, his nerves were "jangled" as my Dad use to say after encountering a rattle or copper head snake.

We have hills and have several thoughts to deal with them.

1. Bale on the ground and use a grapple system to pick them up - 10 at a time.

2. If our wagon or bale basket holds 100, only bale 50 to limit the weight.

3. Locate our storage on the hill tops such that a wagon load of hay is always being pulled up hill and never down. When the customer comes to buy, we go the shed - multiple sheds.

4. When baling with our without a wagon or basket behind, go around the side of the hills, turning up towards the top with each pass. Couldn't get every windrow like this at one time, but it would take more trips with a wagon to get them anyway - staggering as we bale towards the top shouldn't be a problem.

or all of the above.

Be safe.

Bill


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

From reading everybody's replies, it looks like I am a sissy. When we baled on wagons we had 110hp in 2wd, and 100hp in 4wd, both around 11-12k lbs, never had any issues. The thing is that you might be able to get the tractor big enough, say 100hp and 4wd, but the baler is still going to weigh less than the wagon. Like was mentioned a full wagon pushing you down the hill is NOT good. You have to use your own judgement, but I'd figure 100hp and 4wd, but maybe if things are steep enough I'd step up in size, and add more weights.....

Rodney


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

If you aren't stacking I get 130 on that rack. We run mostly 60-70hp tractors. My current baling tractor is a Deere 5500 with the wheels set as wide as possible, tire weights and loaded rears. Nice stable baling platform.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Would it be possible to install a set of trailer brakes on the kicker wagon? You could use a rheostat to set a proportional braking amount going down a hill or a "panic button" to apply 100% braking.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

RockmartGA said:


> Would it be possible to install a set of trailer brakes on the kicker wagon? You could use a rheostat to set a proportional braking amount going down a hill or a "panic button" to apply 100% braking.


Why not just install "surge brakes" on the trailer-- automatic proportional braking...

For those unfamiliar with the concept, surge brakes are basically a master cylinder mounted on the tongue of the wagon-- the tongue has a section that can slide back and forth a few inches... when the tractor or implement is pulling on the wagon, the brakes are released. If the wagon starts pushing against the implement, it pushes the tongue forward, making it shorter, and this presses against the master cylinder, which forces fluid out brake lines to brakes on the wagon's rear axle, which of course slows down the wagon, releasing (or lessening) pressure on the master cylinder, which of course lessens or releases the pressure on the brakes automatically and proportionally...

Used to be pretty common on gravity boxes and other heavy-weight wagons...

Later! OL JR


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Brakes would be great if someone only had one wagon. If someone, like many people that I know, owned the typical four to ten wagons, it wouldn't be so feasible to start adding brakes. It's much easier to just be smart about having wagons more empty than full when dealing with the worst of the hills. A little foresight goes a long way.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

luke strawwalker said:


> Why not just install "surge brakes" on the trailer-- automatic proportional braking...


I forgot about those. See them a lot on trailers and equipment that you rent.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

8350HiTech said:


> Brakes would be great if someone only had one wagon. If someone, like many people that I know, owned the typical four to ten wagons, it wouldn't be so feasible to start adding brakes. It's much easier to just be smart about having wagons more empty than full when dealing with the worst of the hills. A little foresight goes a long way.


Yeah, it could get expensive. Of course, for the small time guys who don't have a large tractor and only one or two wagons, it could be a life saver. I like Luke's suggestion about surge brakes - seems like a simple solution.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

Not a bad idea for one or two wagons I will look into that if I get some more steep ground.


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## Dirtboy (Apr 5, 2015)

I have a jd 5520 4wd with loader I pull a 336 and 18' wagon similar to your situation. I Have wheel weights and have some hilly ground have never had an issue but like everyone says you have to use your head. I will usually leave the windrows on the steepest ground for when the wagons empty


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I have a 336 and a 348, we pull stacked wagons and forage king baskets in some steepish hills.

The 336 has a trick to help, it has a kicker offset axle but no kicker so it puts a lot of weight on the tractor. Our experience:

50 hp kubota 4wd 6500 lb - not enough power or traction with wagons, fine with baler or part baskets.

52 hp IH 584 4wd 9000 lb - barely enough power, lots of traction in 4wd, hydraulics would suck air even when overfilled by 5 gallons.

52 hp IH 585 2wd, 6500 lb - not enough traction, would spin out long before running out of power. Not heavy enough going down hills, the wagons alone would jacknife this tractor.

60 hp CIH JX75 4wd 7500 lb or so? - worked quite well really in 4wd even with wagon, spun out in 2wd.

85 hp MF5455 4wd, 12,000 lb - spins out in 2wd now the tires are unloaded. In 4wd its very relaxing and doesn't notice weight of wagon with 250 bales.

I used to stack thrower racks at a different farm that would put 280+ bales on. They used a Ford 3600 with filled tires. I have been on the wagon coming down a hill where the baler jack knifed the tractor and pushed it sideways down a mild hill. It wasn't even a full load on the wagon. I don't know much about a 3600 diesel, I'm guessing 45 hp or so? Felt similar to the IH585.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I mow with a White 2-110 and bale with another 2-110, according to TractorData minimum weight was 11,865lbs.

I've had the discbine push the mowing tractor around when turning on a hillside with dew on the grass.

If you have to either do the steepest hills with an empty wagon then when half full goto the flatter part of the field if you can or just plan on only filling half full on the worst fields.

Like what has already been pointed out, a heavy tractor won't help to much as the wagon will just push the baler around.


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