# Silo guard vs Propionic acid



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Has anybody had any direct experience using both Silo Guard and Propionic acid? I notice silo guard is only supposed to be used on 25% and under hay. I see they have a Hay Guard as well, but nothing comes up when clicking the link on their website. When used as labeled does Hay Guard work as well as Propionic?

I've thought about trying Silo guard, but hate to use my own hay as the guinea pig.


----------



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

The bacterial antifungal treatment and the Acids work on an entirely different principle. 
The theory of the bacteria is for the bacteria to occupy the sites on the hay that the fungus want to settle on. A no room at the inn idea. 
The acids fumigate the hay and kill the fungus before it can become a problem.

The deal with the bacteria is each site has to be occupied to be effective. Accuracy o application is crucial.
With the acid as long as there is a reasonable coverage the fumes will work.

In theory the bacteria, be it Silo Guard or Hay Guard can protect hay up to 25% moisture. In practice 22% is about the upper limit. What Hay Guard is usually used for is for baling hay a little earlier in the day or a little later at night. 
In theory the acids will preserve hay up to 40% moisture. That may be but it will be costly. The practical limit is up close to 30% moisture when 3 lbs of acid per ton will do the job. Still costly but workable. Better is to stay below 25% moisture and use 2 lbs of acid/Ton, of damp, hay. 
I believe the big square baling folks bale when there still is stem moisture and the acid prevents mold when the hay goes into a sweat. 
A sure cure for molding in hay is to tarp the stack and shove a bunch of anhydrous under the tarp.


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

If you go with the acid, be sure to get an applicator that is able to pump/apply a small amount of acid. I recently found out from Harvest Tec that my model 464 applicator and its' pumps has a minimum application rate of 60 lbs/hr (or something like that). This means that you often over apply.....way over apply.....in light crop conditions. I can't describe how angry I get at that stupid machine when I set the program to apply 4 lbs/ton on 15% hay and the thing is actually applying 2 or 3 times that amount because I'm only sending a small amount of hay through the baler.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I already have the automatic one from Harvest Tec, the 463 I believe? And yah, its a real PITA to have to change to the smaller nozzles. No matter how well I clean everything off, it seems I still have to stop and clean them again at least once. If I know its light, I'll try to rake four rows together just so I know I can leave the large set of nozzles in.

I was just wondering about the difference is all, I already use propionic and heard somewhere that hay guard was cheaper.


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

I hear ya on the smaller nozzles. Bale my first 2nd cut today and put way to much acid on. I know what I'm doing tomorrow AM. SWITCHING NOZZLES!


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Like I mentioned in a different post, I like to keep a can of electrical cleaner with a straw on it in the baler to clean those teeny little nozzles with. Its still a pain to stop, but it seems to work the best. Ether works as well.

Be careful on the electrical cleamner though, some brands say not to use on plastic.


----------



## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

how much acid do you guys like to see go on? I am new to the system from harvestech, used only about a ton of product so far, and not real impressed with the automatic applicator. I think I could get just as close with a manual system. Last night I rushed an 80 to beat rain and applied just over 1000 lbs to the first 118 3x4 bales, probably baled at 20%. We are going to wrap it with a stinger tube-line just to be safe. This is way out of my comfort zone for making dry hay, but we never get a window to make hay this year. Another thing, my harvesttech always reads alot wetter than the hay really is. The koster tester said 18% and the harvesttech says 31%.....Recalibrate??


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm not sure about a large square baler, as my experience has been with a round baler.

I'm not sure there is a way to calibrate the automatic system. I know on my round baler once the bale is out it shouldn't be reading any moisture at all, thats kinda hard to do on a large square though.

I've been using it for three years now and several times I thought it was lying to me. The first year I had it after checking the hay myself by hand and using a hand held windrow tester I thought the hay was a lot dryer than what the applicator said it was. Seemed just a little tough on bottom but the rest of the windrow should have been 19-20%. I could see the rain coming from the west and decided to run it on manual at the middle setting, got it all baled, but every single bale either caramelized or ended up very dusty. Had this happen once more the next year in almost the same situation and with the same results. Since then if it says its wet, I tend to believe it.

Again this is just my experience with it, but it needs to be considered that it takes far more samples as your baling than you could by hand.

If your using it on a big baler, maybe something isn't quite right with the star wheel mounts and its reading higher as its shorting out somewhere in the sensor?


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

I agree with Mlappin. Everything he mentioned has happened to me. I also thought the harvstec tester was lying to me, but it always seems to be correct. Case in point, we started 2nd cut a couple days ago, and I was SURE I could bale but Harvestec said 25%. I dried a 100g sample in the microwave and lo and behold, it was 25%.

Also have caremilized bales. I'm not sure the acid will prevent that. I believe it will prevent mold though. I *think* they will caramelize if you pile them in the barn before they sweat....acid or no.

Our applicators are programmed per the instructions in the harvestec manual or the instructions on the tote of acid, whichever is more. Actually, we apply a little more than they say we should just to be safe. Right now, it's 4lbs/ton from 14% - 16%. 8 lbs/ton from 17% - 20%. 12 lbs/ton at 21%. We bale pretty dense....950 lbs bales...850 after shrink.

Yesterday I applied 170 lbs of acid on 27 3x3x8's. That's almost $9/bale. I was shattering leaves and the hay was dry. There was regrowth in the windrow and the monitor was showing 20% - 30%.

The leaves are still in the bale and this will likely go for TMR so hopefully it won't matter so much about the shattering. Would be nice to recoup that acid cost.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Everyone at the auctions I talk to agree that rounds breath out better than large squares and I tend to agree with them. I used to make 20-21% rounds without a applicator and would stack them seperate each one on its own pallet, it worked, took a ton of space and even more time, but it did work in a pinch. Once I had enough hay planted that method had to go so I started using a applicator. I can honestly say I have yet to regret the rather large outlay of cash.

The only time I have caramelized bales is if I have a whole field of 23-24% hay to get in. Normally if I get the occasional bale much over 22% when I go to eject it I'll back up so I'm ninety degrees to the row so when I pick em up I know which were wet and those go on the top layer so they can breath better. I also stack em on their sides just like a person would with tough small squares. I think they do breath better that way which cuts down on caramel hay. I also stack em in hoop buildings, and all of those have the roll up sides as well so I have good ventilation regardless of which way the wind is blowing.

I set mine to apply 4 ponds of product starting at 10% up to 21, then 8 from 21-25 and 16 above 25. Propionic ain't cheap, but I apply it to all my hay starting with second cutting as it seems that 4 pounds is enough to prevent any heating when it does sweat and 4 pounds of acid seems pretty cheap compared to loosing $$$ on a sale because its a little dusty when it comes off the stack. With the 4 pounds applied I've also had good luck getting it off the field and stacked immediately before the weatherman has a chance to change the forecast again.


----------



## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

It's done, 141 3x4 bales put up too wet, acid applied at 13 lbs per ton, are now wrapped in plastic film 3 high and 188 feet long. Very fast process. Less than one hour not includung set up time...but will it be a product I can sell someday?? Time will tell I guess.


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

IAhaymakr said:


> It's done, 141 3x4 bales put up too wet, acid applied at 13 lbs per ton, are now wrapped in plastic film 3 high and 188 feet long. Very fast process. Less than one hour not includung set up time...but will it be a product I can sell someday?? Time will tell I guess.


what moisture? Was this baleage/silage bales? We tried wrapping dry hay one year. Never tried it again. We only wrap straw now.


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

rank;4620
Our applicators are programmed per the instructions in the harvestec manual or the instructions on the tote of acid said:


> This was bugging me so I double checked today while I was in the tractor. I was off a bot above. Real application rates are below. This is more than what the directions call for.
> 4 lbs/ton from 14% - 19%
> 8 lbs/ton from 20% - 22%
> 12 lbs/ton from 23% up


----------



## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

How come no dry hay in the wrapper? The stinger people claim you can put almost anything in the wrapper and have good results. My hay was probably in the low twenties, and although I applied roughly 12 lbs per ton of acid to most of the hay I ran out for the last 18 bales. Its all in the tube now, and its raining AGAIN. I know of an operation that wraps everything including dry hay over in south dakota with ?good? results apparently. I would sure be interested in hearing more about your experience with wrapping. It's all just an experiment here, probably an expensive one.


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

IAhaymakr said:


> How come no dry hay in the wrapper? The stinger people claim you can put almost anything in the wrapper and have good results. My hay was probably in the low twenties, and although I applied roughly 12 lbs per ton of acid to most of the hay I ran out for the last 18 bales. Its all in the tube now, and its raining AGAIN. I know of an operation that wraps everything including dry hay over in south dakota with ?good? results apparently. I would sure be interested in hearing more about your experience with wrapping. It's all just an experiment here, probably an expensive one.


It was ~4 years ago and I don't remember all the details but they went moldy. It was a "Reeves" Bale wrapper and we piled big squares 3 high in a "sausage". It may have been because they didn't have time to sweat or it may have been because they were piled on top of one another. But they went moldy.


----------



## ISF (Jun 4, 2008)

hay wilson in TX said:


> The bacterial antifungal treatment and the Acids work on an entirely different principle.
> The theory of the bacteria is for the bacteria to occupy the sites on the hay that the fungus want to settle on. A no room at the inn idea.
> The acids fumigate the hay and kill the fungus before it can become a problem.
> 
> ...


Silo Guard is not a bacterial product. Also, any university data would show that your levels of acid are low. You cannot get by with 2# of acid on 25% moisture hay. Even the acid suppliers would tell you that you need to use significantly more than that. I've attached the rates recommended by Harvest Tec (AGCO) for their acid product (taken from their literature).


----------



## ISF (Jun 4, 2008)

mlappin said:


> Has anybody had any direct experience using both Silo Guard and Propionic acid? I notice silo guard is only supposed to be used on 25% and under hay. I see they have a Hay Guard as well, but nothing comes up when clicking the link on their website. When used as labeled does Hay Guard work as well as Propionic?
> 
> I've thought about trying Silo guard, but hate to use my own hay as the guinea pig.


We have several people that have switched from acid to Silo Guard the past couple of years. There are several reasons. 1) No odor 2) Less bleaching 3) Less product to take to the field 4) Safer to handle (not EPA regulated) 5) Cheaper in most cases, and others.

It will work well with the HarvestTec systems, we just need to change a couple of settings.

If you're interested in looking at using the product I'd like to talk to you and help make sure we get the applicator set up right. With ANY product, knowing your moisture and applying the correct amount contributes greatly to the success of the product.

You already have all the $$ invested in fertilizer, equipment, etc. It's imperative that whatever product you use is applied correctly. I'd be glad to help with that.

[email protected]


----------



## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I was interested in your product, ISF, and your rep was supposed to look me up after the dairy expo in sioux falls last spring. He never called...


----------



## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

ISF said:


> It will work well with the HarvestTec systems, we just need to change a couple of settings.


Silo Guard is a powder right? How does it manage to work with a liquid applicator?
I spoke to a (Canadian) rep over the phone about pricing. It seemed to me as though it would be approx the same cost as acid in my case. 3x3x8 bales ~950 lbs anywhere from 8% moisture up to a few readings at 30% in an extreme case.


----------



## ISF (Jun 4, 2008)

rank said:


> Silo Guard is a powder right? How does it manage to work with a liquid applicator?
> I spoke to a (Canadian) rep over the phone about pricing. It seemed to me as though it would be approx the same cost as acid in my case. 3x3x8 bales ~950 lbs anywhere from 8% moisture up to a few readings at 30% in an extreme case.


Silo Guard is available in both a dry and liquid form. I prefer to use the liquid on dry hay because we typically get better coverage. If you need more information let me know and I can try to answer any questions you might have.


----------

