# Hay Preservative on Small Squares of Grass



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Sometimes when reading this forum, maybe all the time, I feel like I am the only one left not using preservative on small squares of grass hay. I do not have a problem getting top money for my hay, don't have mold issues other than the windrow next to the woods or occasional slug of green stuff on the bottom of the windrow, etc. I have always been concerned about one of my customers horses not wanting the hay because it has some residual (this can be an issue with biosolids or raw chicken litter with too rich hay) and corrosion on my equipment due to the preservative. That said, when I see dark green squares of grass, not alfalfa, going down the road in January and it is cold outside and the ground is snow covered, it makes me start rethinking my position.

So, anyone else out there making horse quality small squares in the east without preservative? Just wonderin.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Me. 
(Though pretty much once per year I say I should consider an applicator)


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## jhag (Dec 25, 2009)

I've done it both ways. Although I have an applicator, I don't hardly ever use it. I have used different brands of acid, but for me , it seems to be hit and miss, as far as success. I use my tedder daily and can get my hay good and dry. I am in Ontario, but we have very hot an d humid weather in the summer. Usually in the 90 degree range with 70-80% humidity. For me, the tedder is indispensable. I don't worry about how green other people's hay is. As long as I can bale a good 50lb bale and get it stored, people will pay a top dollar!

Jim


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

I was, not next hay season! The weather is just to unpredictable now a days. Even if the hay is dry on the ground, if the humidity is high the hay can spoil. I had what I thought was some great second cut, was reading around 12 to 14% going through the baler. The humidity was in the high 80's. had no choice because of rain in the forecast. I'm feeding that hay out now. Looks good but smells like mold. Fortunately it's being fed to sheep, so no great loss. Every time I break open a bale, I curse.

Installed an applicator last year, just never got around to using it. We are going to be trying out Hay guard and preserver. Between several local larger hay producers around me we will test out several different products and then compare. We will then go with the best results.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I too am set up both ways. Used a preservative 7 years then found other methods that also work.

Here if the hay is conditioned and dropped to cov3r 80% of the ground plus allow 5.5 Hrs of good sunshine after cutting the hay will be dried to an average moisture in the 40% range.

The next day ( second day) the stems exposed to the sunlight will heat the sap create some extra vapor pressure and push vapor out the nearest openings.

Preservative is perfict for baling in too high a humidity. For light (small square ) bales need a humidity of less than 70% or 65% for large dense bales. (This humidity is down next to the hay)

Preservative also allows us to bale those 2000# Large Square bales at a higher moisture level to conserve the leaves and not mold.

The Big Boys have a humidity detector that will call them on the phone when the humidity is good to bale. I just use a $50 toy, set it on the ground and keep an eye on the thiing.

Using a tedder the second day will help stirr the all ready wide swath to expose fresh stems to the direct rays of the sun.

During the drought of the 1950's Pop would have me mow early. Rake as the hay started to wilt and we could bale that night about 10 PM.

Dduring the Drought of the 1980's I again baled at night. For the Drought of 2012 & 13 I was just too old for working those kind of hours.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

hay wilson in TX said:


> During the drought of the 1950's Pop would have me mow early. Rake as the hay started to wilt and we could bale that night about 10 PM.
> 
> Dduring the Drought of the 1980's I again baled at night. For the Drought of 2012 & 13 I was just too old for working those kind of hours.


that's just too funny-knew that they did in the west some places but here we're thinking we are crazy if the sq baler is still moving at 6:30 pm and that's only on really dry hot days in July.

And we ted adn ted and ted. Think it was two years ago I tedded one field 8 times in a rainy spell-got it made sold it at top price but it was a lot of work, and no did not make any money, but did not lose any either.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Is haymaking a science, an art, or just simply a crapshoot? I have baled hay I thought was perfect and it smelled dusty and I have baled hay I was sure wasn't fit because of rain in the forecast and it turned out perfect. BTW I don't use preservative.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

don't forget the voodoo part-guess that is witchcraft in the north


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Being in a humid climate I'm also very seriously looking at adding a preservative applicator to my small square baler. Since I'm planting a field of alfalfa I think that the preservative would allow me to bale with more dew to minimize leaf loss and expand my baling window.

I can see where on grass hay The preservative could be used on the outside round next to the woods which even when the rest of the field is bone dry the outside round is just borderline. I have a few fields that I have had to let the outside rounds dry an extra day after baling the middle of the field which is a pain in the rear....if the preservative would allow me to bale it all in 1 day that would be great.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

FarmerCline said:


> Being in a humid climate I'm also very seriously looking at adding a preservative applicator to my small square baler. Since I'm planting a field of alfalfa I think that the preservative would allow me to bale with more dew to minimize leaf loss and expand my baling window.
> 
> I can see where on grass hay The preservative could be used on the outside round next to the woods which even when the rest of the field is bone dry the outside round is just borderline. I have a few fields that I have had to let the outside rounds dry an extra day after baling the middle of the field which is a pain in the rear....if the preservative would allow me to bale it all in 1 day that would be great.


I understand what you are saying but is the cost of an applicator system worth getting a windrow or two baled? Sometimes at my farm they take a permanent trip to the woods-its cheaper. Or, I bale and drop them on the ground and drag them into a loader bucket and then dump them in the woods. Might be able to save one to two bales that way that are on the border.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I won't be using it, stuff makes my throat itch . I helped a friend put some in the barn and felt like my throat was closing up . Same thing when we took it out. After we got past those couple layers coming out I had no problem . Call me nuts but that is my experience.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> I understand what you are saying but is the cost of an applicator system worth getting a windrow or two baled? Sometimes at my farm they take a permanent trip to the woods-its cheaper. Or, I bale and drop them on the ground and drag them into a loader bucket and then dump them in the woods. Might be able to save one to two bales that way that are on the border.


 For me with the little fields I do there is a lot do edge and I simply can't see throwing that many bales away. That is why I currently let the edge and the low lying areas of some fields lay a day longer so I don't waste any hay.....especially since I'm not running on the amount of acreage that I want to, every bale I can squeeze out of an acre is important. If you figure the fertilize, twine, fuel, equipment wear, and labor that you lose by throwing the outside windrow of bales I would rather put the money towards an applicator. I have been very lucky so far that the weather has allowed me to let certain parts of the field finish drying naturally but I know that my luck is going to run out sometime.

For alfalfa it seems like in my mind an applicator would be a very useful tool In making premium quality alfalfa in this humid climate. It seems like the baling window would be too short between too damp and the leaves shattering to get much done. If you can start baling when it has more moisture it seems like the quality would be better as leaf loss would be minimal and spoilage would not be a big worry. Then I guess there would be an occasion where the applicator may let you bale the hay early before the rain hits this would be a benefit for grass as well.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

What kind of grass are you baling ? Some grass is going to be greener then others . Also what cutting . Normally my third cutting and later of what ever , grass or alfalfa is much greener then my second .


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I don't use it and don't want to use it.....one more thing for a customer to turn his/her nose up at....all I do is grass for the most part. I can certainly see the benefits, however it's one more person in my pocket....


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Chessiedog said:


> What kind of grass are you baling ? Some grass is going to be greener then others . Also what cutting . Normally my third cutting and later of what ever , grass or alfalfa is much greener then my second .


 I'm mostly baling orchard grass and a orchard/fescue mix and trying to get 3 cuttings. The august 2nd cuttings dries down the easiest and the third cutting is the prettiest hay with a deep blue green color and very soft. I'm also growing a good bit of oat hay and a little timothy and am planting my first alfalfa this spring.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have threatened to use preservative.....if I did just grass hay I would probably would not even fool with it.....but, alfalfa is such a PIA here in the Southeast that if you can get it up with out preservative and it is in good condition...then you got lucky. If I go with a preservative applicator and preservative, I believe I will go with Silo King dry preservative that is blowed on with Gandy type applicators and blowers....It absolutely goes against my grain to work like the devil to get your forage dry and then turn around and spray a liquid on it. If I used a liquid, it definitely would not be acid....just too many negatives for me to deal with....I trust NDVA HAYMAN as much as anyone on here....he said last year that his horses will turn away from eating acid preserved hay. One of his customers brought it to his attention and he said that indeed it was true for him. He also has quit acid and gone with the Silo King dry preservative and seems happy with it. It basically is a food grade preservative if I understand correctly and there are some nutritional benefits with using it as well. There is no perfect system, but some have less drawbacks than others.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yeah, I am very concerned about horses not liking it. did a hay clinic for trail riders in Nov and three people brought hay for the "whisperer" to determine what was wrong with it. Well, I have made a lot of hay and two of the bales looked fine-color, maturity etc, no mold but had some faint but distinct smell that was not normal. I could only assume it was either a preservative or that a jetliner dumped something on it (we are right under the west approach to Dulles Airport.

Basically I think the whole "organic" thing is way overdone, but there is nothing better than your own farm raised eggs, home grown chickens, and sun cured hay.


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## Chessiedog (Jul 24, 2009)

My self I have not had any problems with horses not eating hay with acid on it . I have 3 horses my self and have not had a problem nor any where I have taken it too . Just like every thing else some are more picky then others I suppose . I'm not saying use it just my experience with it .

One of the claims is that it suppose to keep hay greener , myself I have not really seen that . I also think
If you can make it with just the sunshine that's the best .


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I have not thought about certain horses not eating the acid treated hay. I didn't want to use an acid type preservative anyway as even though it is buffered and claimed to not rust equipment I just have a hang up of putting acid on my equipment. I was leaning towards using Hay Guard....I wonder if there has been any issues with it? I will have to look up Silo King.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

The acid - propionic acid, is made during digestion in a horses stomach. Do some research, I recall that is the story to it. The thing that I like about the acid is that it is always ready to use, and the storage is easy. Some of the products have to be used x number of hours after they are mixed. I know that some guys swear up and down that the acid is corrosive, but I haven't seen one spot of rust from any acid. I have seen discolored paint, but I see that from antifreeze as well.

We may bale hay here and just use the acid to extend the day a few hours, and the vast majority of a certain day might be acid free. Just cause you have a preservative applicator does not mean that you have to put it on all of the bales.

Rodney


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

I don't use any preservatives on our small squares which are alfalfa/grass mix. It is VERY challenging to get consistent dry windrows and I still lose the occasional cutting or partial field to mold because I just couldn't wait any longer before the rain arrives. I've learned to accept a bit more leaf loss because I'll frequently wait until it is 10-12% moisture before baling just to be safe. Those perfect 4 consecutive days of sunny dry weather don't come around often enough around here. So, we practice art, science and voodoo to get it done.

One final point. I strive to grow the highest quality hay possible for our own flock of sheep and a few beef creatures we keep. I only sell around 1000 -2000 bales of "extra" or safety stock hay each year to other breeders and livestock owners. If my primary interest for growing hay was to maximize sales to others I would probably invest in an acid applicator as my losses would not be acceptable as they are now. All our hay meets organic certification standards and I tend to charge a premium for it which compensates a little for higher losses over time. But again, if I needed to maximize yield I'd probably use acid.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Rodney R said:


> The acid - propionic acid, is made during digestion in a horses stomach. Do some research, I recall that is the story to it.
> 
> Rodney


Very well could be the case Rodney, but it is produced in the horses gut....and I don't like the taste of my stomach contents when up chucking and I don't think a horse would like the taste of it's own propionic acid either as picky as they can be most of the time.

Regards, Mike


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

The only thing I grow now is timothy grass hay. I do seed a little birdsfoot trefoil with it, but it is pretty much all grass. Last summer was the first time we actually had to use preservative to get hay up. It was just way too rainy for us to bale without it sometimes. Normally, I don't run the applicator but do have the system on so I can see what the moisture % is as I bale (I have one of the older automatic Harvest Tech systems with the in chamber sensor).

The two big reasons I try not to use preservative are cost (it can add 17 to 25 cents a bale depending on application rate, etc.) and the fact that my main customer is a little nervous about using it. This customer transports horses up and down the east coast and just doesn't want to take any chances unless he has to. One of my other customers took a sample of some of the treated hay and did notice that her horses preferred the untreated hay, but I'm wondering if it was that the hay was something "different" than they were used to (her horses did eat both the treated and untreated hay without any problems). By the way, I think a big part of the problem with using acid (or any type of preservative) is educating the customer on how it works and the pros/cons of it.

I did try doing a timothy alfalfa mix on a smaller field for a few years, but in the climate we have around here, getting alfalfa dry enough to bale was just too much of hassle. If I were doing a mix like that again, I would almost have to use the preservative to get the hay put up.

As far as the color, I think that the big killer (in my area) on first cutting is sun bleaching. The advantage to using a preservative is that you can bale sooner than without it, thus limiting the amount of sun bleaching that occurs. Our second cutting has always been much greener than our 1st cuttings, but it is baled in September not June/July so there is much less daylight to bleach the hay. I also think if you mow the first cutting when it is in the boot stage rather than waiting a little longer, you end up with a greener hay with more leaf, but you don't get as many bales per acre, so you have to be able to make up that money in your price.

Well, I've rambled on long enough, time to go plow the driveway


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

Rodney, you are correct, horses produce propionic acid in their cecum. I have run some side by side test with treated and untreated hay, and the horses preferred the treated hay. We run propionic acid on all hay even hay that is below 8%. Espescially Timothy for the race track. Having said this I am always looking for some thing better.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I use acid when needed, have for years and will continue to use it. It will have odor that will cause livestock refusal for a while until it dissipates, a few weeks or so. Nothing in it will hurt any animal if used as label directs. If you can convince a customer your product is better because you do or don't use it, well go for it.

I always felt that you need the option to use it when you move from a labor centered harvest method to an automated one because you no longer have the option to sort out bales that are heavy, warm or damp as you stack.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

SVF - exactly. A lot of folks think that us producers just 'pickle' the hay with acid..... the truth is that a guy only uses a few gallons over a few hundred bales.

Vol - I don't like vomit either, but in many cases horses actually prefer the taste of treated hay. There might be some initial hesitation, but we've gone back and forth with both our own and customers horses, and there has been no issue, for about 15 years.

Rodney


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

So if you use propionic acid, how much of an issue do you have with corrosion on your baler and how high a moisture content can you bale in. I am ususally shooting for 15-16% without acid but in reality you get bales from 12 to 22 or more. Usually if i have any issue with mold which is rare, it is a weather event after baling or pushing the hay at moisture contents into the 20s due to a coming storm.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Hayman1 said:


> So if you use propionic acid, how much of an issue do you have with corrosion on your baler and how high a moisture content can you bale in. I am ususally shooting for 15-16% without acid but in reality you get bales from 12 to 22 or more. Usually if i have any issue with mold which is rare, it is a weather event after baling or pushing the hay at moisture contents into the 20s due to a coming storm.


CropSaver (that's what NH re-labels Harvest Techs preservative as and JD sells as "Baler's Choice) states that you can bale up to 30% moisture, but I try not to bale anything higher than the low 20% range since the stuff costs so much. I haven't notice any problems with corrosion, but I also haven't used as much as other people on here do, so I would like to hear their opinions on that. The Harvest Tech brochures claim that the buffered solutions are no more harmful than rain water, but I don't know of too many people that like their balers to get rained on.

One other thing to keep in mind is that if you bale hay without treating it and then bale hay with the treatment, you will need to keep them separated since the "extra" moisture in the treated hay can migrate into the untreated hay and cause mold that way too.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

We have the manual system of sorting out wet bales still. No preservative. An observation after several years is the "puffball" bales ie 35-40 lbs for 32-34" bales rarely have trouble with dusting/mold even if fairly wet. I hate putting them up as they are terrible to handle and walk on but some horse folks want nothing else.

Not sure if the mechanism is just moisture leaving the low density bales easier or if the material being physically spaced further apart helps.

Given the access to dehumidification kilns for drying lumber in our area I've thought about drying loads a couple of % points in one. Say in a container with 40,000 lb of 20% hay, to go to 15% you have to remove 2000 lb of water so about an IBC container worth in a day. A little more aggressive than wood drying but could work.


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

I haven't noticed any corrosion on our balers at all.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Have never had any corrosion problems at all. Many times we will push alfalfa into the mid 20's, but grass hay we almost never go above 20, cause the baler guys are too lazy to watch tension on the bales as they get dry/wet, and I either wind up with puff balls or bricks, neither of which I like. In alfalfa we have enough time for me to run over to the balers and check a bale now and then.

Rodney


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Anyone using the latest system from NH- supposedly, the auto application based on the in-line moisture meter is working ok now. From what I have read in the past, the earlier versions of the automated one did not work all that well. If I am going to use one of these things I would want one that I could set for "treatment over say 15% and it would dispense the requisite amount of preservative. I understand that I would still need to watch for an upper limit on the moisture, say 25% but is this a reasonable expectation from a current system costing 2K? I only do grass hay.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Hayman, I picked my older automatic system up used from someone off craigslist for $700, so I can't complain about how it works. I did notice that the moisture reading bounces all over the place and the unit was turning solenoids on/off quite a bit. The readings would sometimes jump 3 or 4% points in the 3 or 5 second sampling time and I knew there wasn't a green wad of hay that went through the baler. I finally just turned it to manual mode and ran the solenoids myself. I'd watch the moisture readings and figure a rough guess average and open/close solenoids accordingly. Is this the problem that you referred to or am is something else wrong with my setup? Or is this normal? When baling dryer hay (not using the preservative), the % wouldn't jump around quite as much, but it still varied up to 3% points between readings sometimes.

The only problem I had with the hay was some bales molded on the edge that was setting on the haymow floor. It was only on that edge and just the outside of the bale. I think that is more of an air circulation issue than moisture content as I have had the same problem with untreated hay as well. I wasn't at the barn when that stuff was put up and I forgot to tell the crew to scatter some chaff on the floor before the bales were stacked.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Josh-Yes- bouncing all over and no consistent response to moisture changes is what I heard was a problem with the early automatic units. I have also read that the current one has solved that- that is why I asked the questions. Thanks for the response.

My point is that if the automatic system now really works, it is worth paying a new price for, if it doesn't, might as well buy a cheaper manual version.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

This is my 2 yr old 5070 with 70k bales and 3500 lb of prop thru it. Paint is off under nozzles but no corrosion.

On grass hay you should be able to add about 5 points of moisture with 4 to 6 lh of prop to whatever percentage you feel comfortable with now. Higher moisture than that will lead to variable results and roi gets questionable as application rates get high.

Automatic or manual will both work well and both will require some management.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

SVFHAY said:


> IMG_20140128_082644.jpgThis is my 2 yr old 5070 with 70k bales and 3500 lb of prop thru it. Paint is off under nozzles but no corrosion.
> 
> On grass hay you should be able to add about 5 points of moisture with 4 to 6 lh of prop to whatever percentage you feel comfortable with now. Higher moisture than that will lead to variable results and roi gets questionable as application rates get high.
> 
> Automatic or manual will both work well and both will require some management.


Thanks. Maybe it will help on first cutting of teff- lordy what a bear!


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## Sawdust (Feb 24, 2014)

Gents, I hope you don't mind a new person jumping in here (a month later). I've been doing hay (mostly grass) for about 15-20 years on a small scale. Subsistance haying and I just enjoy it. My wife has horses and she's one of those picky horse people when it comes to hay. I've had a NH 570 (used a JD15 for a bit then a JD 338) for about 4-5 years now and put a Harvest Tec Automatic system on it about 3 years ago. Best thing I ever did. I fret about my hay but this thing takes the guesswork out of curing for me. I generally rake at 10 and bale at 1. I run the system on Auto just to see the moisture content and if I do hit a wet area, not a worry. I've baled over 30% with this thing and the hay has always come out fine.

She and her horses were a little skeptical in the beginning, but they got used to the smell and now they suck that stuff down. I put up what I thought was really heavy damp bales last summer and set the aside. They were fed this winter and the horses would just dive into them.

I filed my 25 gallon tank 2 years ago and still have about 7 gallons in it from then. Not a spec of rust or corrosion from the acid. But don't get that stuff on a cut, I "garontee" you'll regret it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Welcome to haytalk sawdust.....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I know for a fact I shipped about 25% of my hay (200 850lb RB's) off to the mushroom growers because it was baled between 20-27% moisture and I knew it would mold. If I had my applicator at that time, I would have sold those bales for $75 instead of $40. That's $7,000. Much more than I paid for a fully automated applicator installed by the dealer.

If I had those 200 bales, I also may have had enough hay to not run out and risk my best buyer having to look elsewhere for hay where he might find a better or cheaper hay grower.....

I think it'll be fantastic to have that tank full of preservative up there and as soon as that readout goes above 18%, she starts spraying preservative. 
Less to worry about. Safer, less moldy hay.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Sawdust great to have another "SEPA" guy aboard. 
I'm on the PA/DE border.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

As long as you have somewhere to store an extra 200 bales.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> As long as you have somewhere to store an extra 200 bales.


Or my customer does.....


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Or my customer does.....


That's a good customer!


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

JD3430 said:


> I think it'll be fantastic to have that tank full of preservative up there and as soon as that readout goes above 18%, she starts spraying preservative.
> Less to worry about. Safer, less moldy hay.


One thing I would point out is that with round bales it's easier to wait until the moisture jumps up. If you are baling small squares, you have to stack the treated and untreated bales separately so that the moisture in the treated bales doesn't migrate into untreated bales and cause them to go bad. In cases like that, I would tend to treat all the hay just as a precaution unless I had a definite way of telling the treated bales from the untreated bales.


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## Sawdust (Feb 24, 2014)

I read that about the Propionic acid treated bales (storing separately). I honestly don't have the time or inclination to try to separate out the treated and non treated bales. I've baled where I have 12% in a row and 25% further down the row. They all go in the thrower wagon and get stacked together, I don't think we've ever had a problem with moisture migration. All I can say is I've had excellent "luck" treating my hay and rarely run without it on.


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