# Front end loader won't stay up.



## Cowboy2563

Well the Case 1370 dad and I have is giving us some issues. The loader wont stay up. It has slowly started doing this. When we first got the tractor a couple months ago we never had any issues with it. Then about 2 weeks ago it started where the loader would fall a little at a time. No big deal. Then last week it started falling faster so we just lift it back up. Saturday when I went to go cut hay it wont stay up at all. Tractor wont even lift the loader unless you rev it up to 1500 rpms. Then once you lift it up it just falls right back down. We haven't toar anything apart yet because we needed it to finish baling this weekend so we just put some boards of wood on each side to brace the loader from falling to the ground. We got all the hay baled last night so we need to figure out whats wrong. I have no idea. I thought maybe the hydraulic pump was getting weak and was going out but it lifted the 9ft disc mower fine and it lifted the rear gate of the round baler fine too. So there's gotta be something wrong with the loader itself. We also checked hoses and none of them are broke. It you have any idea what this could be let me know. We could really use some help on this. Thanks.


----------



## mlappin

Does the loader use a separate valve body or does it run off the tractor valves? A scratched valve could cause this or a faulty load check could as well, if it runs off the tractor valves you could have a bad seal in one of the loader rams thats letting oil flow around the piston.

Usually a slow settling is a scratched valve, if it settles fast I'd bet on a faulty o-ring or packing on the piston in one of the lift cylinders.


----------



## Cowboy2563

It runs off the tractors valves


----------



## mlappin

Cowboy2563 said:


> It runs off the tractors valves


If another implement that runs off the same valve doesn't settle, then it's most likely a bad packing or o-ring in one of the cylinders which lets oil bypass from the lift side to the lower.


----------



## Tx Jim

Which end of boom cylinder is the rod on(mast or boom frame)? You can try reversing hoses in rear remotes too see if that affects boom operation.


----------



## Cowboy2563

Ok Thanks for your help. One more question though. The guy we bough it from said he had the cylinders on the loader repacked not too long ago. That's all he said. So if it is the cylinders causing this should we get them rebuilt or buy new ones?


----------



## Cowboy2563

What would it do if we reversed the remotes???


----------



## Tx Jim

Cowboy2563 said:


> What would it do if we reversed the remotes???


Depending on the type of control valve it possibly could change the part of valve which is suppose to be holding the pressure. Raise boom up then disconnect hose from upper cylinder ports to determine if oil leaks out of upper ports on cyl. WHICH END IS boom cyl ROD pointing UP or Down?


----------



## Cowboy2563

Its pointing up.


----------



## Tx Jim

If rod is pointing up and cyl piston packing happens to be leaking there's not enough area inside bore of rod end of barrel to allow for extra displaced oil so boom must remain static if no oil is leaking externally this is true if control valve is holding pressure

Update: now that I given this problem more thought it makes no difference which way rod is pointing as piston in cylinder must move towards butt end of cylinder for boom to lower so if there's no rod cap seal or hose leaking cylinder should stay static IE not leak down if cyliinder piston packing is leaking


----------



## Farmerbrown2

Put bucket on top of a bale then disconnect hoses from tractor then back up away from bale if loader drops its the cylinder if not it is in the tractor. Just because somebody rebuilt them doesn't mean they where done correctly. I work construction and worked for a big outfit ( would buy 100 Bobcats at a time or 30 excavators) they found a cheaper cylinder place after I went trough 3 cylinders in one day they quit those guys.


----------



## Thorim

This thread is dying for a little purple pill comment but I will refrain for the sake of the dignity and decorum along with the high standards of this forum


----------



## Cowboy2563

Ok i'll try that. I'll let you know what it does. Thanks


----------



## mike10

Tx Jim's explanation is correct up to a point. There are many single acting cylinders that have no piston or packing at all on the cylinder rod. In a double acting cylinder if the barrel is not completely full on each side of the piston the cylinder will leak down if the packing is bad. In a perfect world the tractor would supply the right amount of oil to keep the rod end full as the barrel end oil is exhausted. Usually the weight on the loader will push more oil out the barrel end then is being supplied to the rod end unless you have a regenerative valve installed.


----------



## Grateful11

Viagra maybe, sorry couldn't help it.


----------



## Nitram

Grateful11 said:


> Viagra maybe, sorry couldn't help it.


That was my initial though too...great minds!


----------



## Tx Jim

mike10 said:


> Tx Jim's explanation is correct up to a point. There are many single acting cylinders that have no piston or packing at all on the cylinder rod. In a double acting cylinder if the barrel is not completely full on each side of the piston the cylinder will leak down if the packing is bad. In a perfect world the tractor would supply the right amount of oil to keep the rod end full as the barrel end oil is exhausted. Usually the weight on the loader will push more oil out the barrel end then is being supplied to the rod end unless you have a regenerative valve installed.


Mike10

I'm curious as to how many frt end loaders you see this day & age that have single acting boom

cylinders??? I'll bet it would be difficult to locate a new or late model loader with true single acting cylinders such as you referred to with "no piston".

Jim


----------



## Grateful11

Tx Jim said:


> Mike10
> 
> I'm curious as to how many frt end loaders you see this day & age that have single acting boom
> 
> cylinders??? I'll bet it would be difficult to locate a new or late model loader with true single acting cylinders such as you referred to with "no piston".
> 
> Jim


The IH 574 we used to have had no down pressure on loader. I'm guessing it had single action cylinders? Can't remember the loader model number.


----------



## mike10

The mention of single acting cylinders was to corroborate what you stated about cylinders not leaking down if the cylinder barrel is full of oil. Some call them ship in the bottle cylinders since there is no readily apparent means to take them apart. Those cylinders do not have any piston, just the rod sticking in the barrel. As you mentioned if the barrel is full of oil the rod can not leak down even in those cylinders with no piston or seals. In other words even if the seals are completely gone on a double acting cylinder as long as there is no empty space on the rod end the cylinder the cylinder will not leak down. Which I believe was your point. For this discussion I am assuming no leakage at the control valve or any where else which I believe you mentioned.

My point was in the case where the tractor can not supply enough oil fast enough to the rod end of the cylinder you run into the situation where both ends of the barrel are not full and thus can leak down. Regenerative valves will take care of this problem and is why they are used heavily in backhoes, but seldom used in ag loaders. Not for leak down purposes but to eliminate the bounce when stopped suddenly.

I have seen it several times where customers on skid loaders will say the boom leaks down but at other times it does not and it is precisely as you stated. If there is no empty space in the rod end of the cylinder the cylinder will not leak down.


----------



## Tx Jim

Mike10

Thanks for your clarification & I agree. The only thing I've seen regenerative valve attached to is bucket circuit but not boom circuit that OP was asking about. Granted I don't get out & about near as much as I once did so there could be some boom circuits with regen. valves

Thanks,Jim


----------



## mike10

I have not seen any either on the boom of a loader but just guessing it would work the same way as on the bucket circuit since it just uses some of the exhaust oil to feed the opposite end.


----------



## Farmineer95

Assuming it is a double acting cylinder:
The easiest way to check for internal leakage is to see if it heats up. For safety reasons i would not disconnect any hoses or lines. Lock the lever to lower the loader. When it picks up the front of the tractor or tries to keep that circuit actuated. This may take a couple minutes but the culprit cylinder will be warmer than the non-leaker. Usually can get it rebuilt cheaper assuming the rod is not pitted where you will never hold a rod end gland seal.


----------



## Cowboy2563

Ok I have an update now. We figured out that the loader is all good. There's nothing wrong with it. The problem is 2 of the hydraulic outlets that the loader hook into must be bad (The 2 outside ones) We hooked the loader hoses up to the inside outlets and it worked fine. I also hooked the disk up to the outside outlets and raised it up. It just fell right back down so there's something wrong with the 2 outside hydraulic outlets. What could it be? and what do we need to do to fix it.


----------



## Tx Jim

Farmineer95 said:


> Assuming it is a double acting cylinder:
> The easiest way to check for internal leakage is to see if it heats up.


Sorry but I seriously doubt a hyd cyl on a FEL that's leaking internally will raise the temp very much. Ain't happening.


----------

