# Dan Anderson on DEF



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Short and to the point.

Regards, Mike

http://www.agweb.com/blog/in_the_shop/no_more_over-powered_tractors_with_loaders/


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I hate when people offer a problem with no apparent solution.....what other choice is there?


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Mike-thanks for posting. I am still mulling my possible tractor purchase but am terrified about tier 4 engines regardless of where in the interim phase they are. When you consider this information on top of total changes in technology within 5-10 years, thus no one able to work on these interim solution engines because they can't remember how, it is no wonder that deere tractor sales are way down. It is not just the economy, I suspect there is a lot of widespread angst amongst potential buyers that don't want to buy something for near 6 figures that is a dinosaur in 10 years from purchase. I also think a lot about the future availability of circuit boards for the electronic rube goldbergs. I know that a good machine shop can darn near replicate anything out of a 1958 JD 720 if you can't find it used somewhere. Just can't believe that Shoup or whomever will be carrying circuit boards for all 20yr old makes and models in 2030 and I am darn certain the major manufactures still standing then won't have them. You won't be able to get them out of salvage yards either as the moisture will kill them. Pretty unnerving. rick


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

He has a BIG typo in there, he is saying DEF but means DPF. The DPF is what plugs.


----------



## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> He has a BIG typo in there, he is saying DEF but means DPF. The DPF is what plugs.


That's what I was thinking when I read it.


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

That is kind of a strange article with that typo. I thought really only the smaller tractors (under 75hp) were DPF driven. The larger ones which I think he is talking about have the DEF system. Which makes me think about the construction industry. Most of that equipment is run just how he says it shouldn't be and will cause problems. Like nearly all the new Skidsteers have DPF systems.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> I hate when people offer a problem with no apparent solution.....what other choice is there?


Run older tractors, I remember reading an article once claiming a new tractor can almost pay for itself in fuel savings, BULLSH*T. The last 35 acres of first cutting hay I mowed was a down rank mess that almost pulled the guts right out of my 1987 White 2-110, had that engine under full load and beyond 90% of the time. I burned .57 gallons to the acre mowing that stuff, even if a new one would have burned a quart to the acre in fuel it takes a hell of a lot of quarts of saved fuel to make a tractor payment.


----------



## yarnammurt (Jan 1, 2014)

I with you, I run a White 2-105 turned up a little no leaks, smoke, or bypass. New cab kit for around $1000, and new roof top A/C heater for $1000. I run all day pulling a 575 NH or a 9' haybine. And the most I have used in a day is 12gal. You cant buy a good USED tractor with that savings.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

mlappin said:


> Run older tractors, I remember reading an article once claiming a new tractor can almost pay for itself in fuel savings, BULLSH*T. The last 35 acres of first cutting hay I mowed was a down rank mess that almost pulled the guts right out of my 1987 White 2-110, had that engine under full load and beyond 90% of the time. I burned .57 gallons to the acre mowing that stuff, even if a new one would have burned a quart to the acre in fuel it takes a hell of a lot of quarts of saved fuel to make a tractor payment.


Depends on the "older" tractor you're using. (And obviously your hours per year) If you look at some of the Nebraska test data for tractors that are older than your older tractor, you start getting into GPH numbers pushing 8. In that case, the math on a new one looks better.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

8350HiTech said:


> Depends on the "older" tractor you're using. (And obviously your hours per year) If you look at some of the Nebraska test data for tractors that are older than your older tractor, you start getting into GPH numbers pushing 8. In that case, the math on a new one looks better.


I can see that, but like you pointed out depends on the tractor and the engine in it. White 2-135's were absolute fuel hogs, of course most of the Hercules engines in them were also pushing close to 200hp on the PTO instead of the rated 135.

Our Waukesha diesels have always been good on fuel, same with our Perkins 354's and our Cat 3208's. We've always looked at fuel consumption before buying as well. Our MF 4880 not so much, but with a 903 Cummins pushing 400hp and a 24 foot chisel plow and sometimes a 26 foot field cultivator hooked to the chisel, you gotta start looking at the work your getting done per hour instead of gallons per hour.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

mlappin said:


> I can see that, but like you pointed out depends on the tractor and the engine in it. White 2-135's were absolute fuel hogs, of course most of the Hercules engines in them were also pushing close to 200hp on the PTO instead of the rated 135.
> 
> Our Waukesha diesels have always been good on fuel, same with our Perkins 354's and our Cat 3208's. We've always looked at fuel consumption before buying as well. Our MF 4880 not so much, but with a 903 Cummins pushing 400hp and a 24 foot chisel plow and sometimes a 26 foot field cultivator hooked to the chisel, you gotta start looking at the work your getting done per hour instead of gallons per hour.


Exactly. It's a real "results may vary" situation. If you're already running relatively good GPH machines and not putting 300-500 hours per year per tractor, it would never pencil out.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

8350HiTech said:


> Exactly. It's a real "results may vary" situation. If you're already running relatively good GPH machines and not putting 300-500 hours per year per tractor, it would never pencil out.


 Exactly, with the amount of ground we had that needed chiseled and how fast I could cover it, barely reached enough hours for an oil change every two years, changed it yearly anyways.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Interesting article. I don't think there is a typo. He means DEF not DPF.

I work with Tier 4 compliant engines in class 8 trucks everyday. Prior to tier 4 DEF injection all engines used DPF cannisters no matter what their rated power was/is.

Couple drawbacks to a DPF equipped diesel, the most motable is, the DPF cannister must be emptied of particulates that collect in the filtering area. If it's not, the cannister will eventually fail as the particulate matter fills the cavity to overflowing and srperates the inner cannister from the body (thats a very expensive repair. The second issue is that DPF particulates are classified as a hazardous substance and the cannietsr must be evacuated via a very expensive machine and the contents must be landfilled in an enviromentally authorized place, in other words, you don't shake the filter over a garbage can and call it good. The machine is so expensive that we change out DPF cannisters and send the full ones back to the manufacturer and they exchange for a cleaned one... but none of it is cheap.

The inherent drawback of a DEF system is one, 32% urea and deionized water, which is what DEF is, solidifies at 34 degrees F. Consrquently, the DEF system must purge itself of solution everythime the engine shuts down and DEF is very high in dissolved solids so the injection nozzles (that spray the DEF into the exhaust stream to catalyize the oxides of nitrogen and the particulates) tend to clog. On a typicall Cummins ISX or DDEC Detroit, getting to the injection nozzles is around $1000.00 in shop labor, Cleaning the nozzles is a simple matter of immersing them in boiling water for 5 minutes. All systems purge, they have to because you can't let the DEF sit in the nozzles...it crystalizes.

The other issue is the electronics and associated monitoring systems. They seem to be failure prone at least in our arena.

Finally, the added cost of emissions hardware/software on a Class 8 diesel is about 30 grand with no guarantee that the system will be viable in even 5 years.

My suggestion to everyone that owns a pre tier 4 or interem tier 4 engine is keep the units and get the engines/drivetrains rebuilt. The new stuff is jumk and I see that everyday.

I believe what will occur is that once technology catches up to emissions standards, all this 'crap' will vanish for the most part, similar to what occured in the 60's with air pumps, 3 way caralyists and engine compartments so covered with hoses anf junk you couldn't find the engine on an automobile and when you shut it off, it kept on running anyway..... 

You'll see the same scenario play out with diesels. *Keep what you have and stay the course and avoid the hassles.*

I have found a good use for DEF and it's not emissions related. I spray it on my hay fields for fertilizer. DEF is nothing more than 32% urea and dionized water. In bulk, it's very competitive with 28. and it's easier to handle so I fertilize with it. I magine when the gummit finds out, I'll be imprisoned for misuse of a controlled substance.....lol My alfalfa sure likes 3 gallons of DEF to 190 gallons of water.....

I could go on for pages about the drawbacks of DEF, I see all the good (not much) bad (quite a bit) and ugly (lots of ugly) aspects everyday, why I bolded the sentence above.

If you absoluely have to have a new prime mover don't buy by brand or color, buy the simplest system you can on whatever tractor.

With DEF, the intake air is actually dirtier than the exhaust is, or so the proponents claim. problem is, the exhaust mught be clean but your wallet will be empty because Tier 4 compliant engines, for the most part are fuel guzzlers and there is the added expense of DEF even if you don't have component issues

I apologize for any typo's. My keyboard needs replacement....


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

ARD Farm said:


> Interesting article. I don't think there is a typo. He means DEF not DPF.
> 
> I work with Tier 4 compliant engines in class 8 trucks everyday. Prior to tier 4 DEF injection all engines used DPF cannisters no matter what their rated power was/is.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for that explanation. I had thought DPF systems and DEF systems were two different things, but from what you say DPF systems are in the DEF systems as well. I'm not in the market for any new motorized farm equipment for now. And I hope by the time I am things will have changed for the better. But I'm not so hopeful on that.


----------



## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'd hold on to that keyboard and get it rebuilt


----------



## cornshucker (Aug 22, 2011)

Another thing that was hit on was the amount of use. The average mileage on the trucks we use at work is about 200-250,000 per year. Traded at 750,000 which is about 3 1/2 years on average. Even at an average of 60 MPH which is not even realistic counting in city driving this equates to 12,500 hours. Not many tractors will see that in 15 years so there is a lot of difference. Marty right about staying with older proven stuff, the way the technology is changing a new Tier 4 will probably be obsolete in about 3-5 years. Another thing not many of the new tractors made before a change meaning a lesser amount in junkyards down the road to rob parts off of. A few years back most manufacturers would make only about 10-12 models and would keep them in production for about 10 years and even when changing models a lot of the parts would interchange with the previous production run leading to a good future parts source. Just another case of too much government intervention. Only good thing about DEF is that is a considerable improvement over cooled EGR which is a complete POS.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD is spot on with what I hear from a friend who is a service manager, another who is a heavy diesel mechanic, and a third who works at the local New Holland dealer, stay away from it if you can. It's expensive to repair and parts may not be around for ever unlike your grandpa's tractor thats still running.

The mechanic friend went and found the newest, lowest mile semi tractor he could that was still ALL mechanical, said at least he can fix that on the side of the road on a weekend.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have about 100k on a DPF 6.4L Ford 550. So far, not too bad, but if you don't run it hard, you get heavy smoke at times.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I made the assumption he is referring to an oversized loader tractor that never gets warm enough to light off the dpf and will frequently plug much like the Ford 6.4's used up north that are left idling that plug up.

The DEF system mainly comes into play at high load and wouldn't be used at idle / light load in an oversized loader tractor. Of course plugging a SCR catalyst from cold operation maybe what he means?

DEF/urea starts to freeze at closer to 11 F, about -10 C. Its been used for years to deice things that are sensitive to salt.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Vol said:


> Short and to the point.
> 
> Regards, Mike
> 
> http://www.agweb.com/blog/in_the_shop/no_more_over-powered_tractors_with_loaders/


In short- stay away.


----------



## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

I just talked to my brother and has a 2012 Chevy 3/4ton Duramax with the Allison trans. He said he's averaging 1 gallon of DEF for every 1000 miles. He left his camper behind at the beach a few ago and on the way back down for another stay he said he got 21.2mpg. I know this is a truck and not a tractor but that's not bad. You can buy DEF about 2 miles from here at the pump for $2.69/gallon. I think I'd rather have DEF than DPF. Friend of mine bought a JD 5115M about 2 years ago and he said the Regen. process isn't too bad but wished it didn't have it.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Run older tractors, I remember reading an article once claiming a new tractor can almost pay for itself in fuel savings, BULLSH*T. The last 35 acres of first cutting hay I mowed was a down rank mess that almost pulled the guts right out of my 1987 White 2-110, had that engine under full load and beyond 90% of the time. I burned .57 gallons to the acre mowing that stuff, even if a new one would have burned a quart to the acre in fuel it takes a hell of a lot of quarts of saved fuel to make a tractor payment.


When I had my new holland I could almost make the payments in fuel savings over the case 930 and the case was very fuel efficient. When you burn half the fuel for over 1000 hours it really adds up.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Hog- if a 930 case is efficient what diesel tractor is a pig?


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> Hog- if a 930 case is efficient what diesel tractor is a pig?


If your comparing equal ones at the time for about same horsepower the 930 could do the same work as the JD 4020 and international 806 on less fuel.

Funny thing was working the new Holland hard like on the cultivator or discbine it was close to same fuel usage as the case but under light load or loader work ,feeding cattle etc it burned less than half the fuel.


----------



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

> I think I'd rather have DEF than DPF


I'm not sure that is the right way to think of it. DEF and DPF operate together to do different things. The DPF is there to capture particulate pollution, as in soot or smoke, caused by overfueling or low combustion temperatures. The purpose of DEF is to eliminate what are known as NOx compounds that are more prevelant with high combustion temperatures. The alternative to DEF is really cooled EGR, which is what DEF is replacing. IMO DEF is less of a horror than the cooled EGR scheme. Cooled EGR or DEF are combined with the DPF to get the maximum pollution reduction.


----------



## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

hog987 said:


> If your comparing equal ones at the time for about same horsepower the 930 could do the same work as the JD 4020 and international 806 on less fuel.Funny thing was working the new Holland hard like on the cultivator or discbine it was close to same fuel usage as the case but under light load or loader work ,feeding cattle etc it burned less than half the fuel.


http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/0/6/64-john-deere-4020-tests.html

http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/5/0/505-ji-case-930-tests.html

806 doesnt show tests.

Just off test data I am guessing the green fans will say that a 4% increase in power vs a 5 % reduction in fuel economy does not make the case a sipper.


----------



## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/0/6/64-john-deere-4020-tests.html
> 
> http://www.tractordata.com/farm-tractors/000/5/0/505-ji-case-930-tests.html
> 
> ...


Your missing the point that the case was that much less horsepower but pulled the same amount at same speed as a 4020. You could get as much work done with the 930 in a day as the 4020 in a day. My experience is not off what tractor data says but doing heavy tillage with both machines(breaking up pasture land) Just compare the max drawbar fuel usage.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Teslan said:


> Thanks very much for that explanation. I had thought DPF systems and DEF systems were two different things, but from what you say DPF systems are in the DEF systems as well. I'm not in the market for any new motorized farm equipment for now. And I hope by the time I am things will have changed for the better. But I'm not so hopeful on that.


Because I have first hand knowledge of both systems and there is a lot of 'smoke and mirrors' concerning Tier 4 compliance and I just got home from work....

DPF and DEF are 2 entirely different animals. DPF (Diesel Particulate Filtering) was basically a stop gap technology that used a heat resistant membrane filter to filter out the visible particulates (soot), while DEF is a catalyist system using urea at 32% to catalize the unwanted patticulates and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. DPF systems use the particulate filter as well as a downstream catalyist (usually in the muffler) to meet the emissions requirements.

DEF systems are 20 times more complex than DPF systems though both are monitored by the on board ICU and if either has a partial failure or complete failure, the engine derates ir shuts down completely. Most of the time the engine will derate to a base power figure, nit useable power, just a 'limp home' rating. I like that term. It's not limp home, it's have it hauled to the dealer and get your wallet out. The days are gone where a wrench spinner could diagnose an issue and fix it. Nowdays, you plug in to the serial bus, get online and hook up to the engine manufactuers website and they diagnose the problem...maybe. I've seen some serious money spent over emissions related issues that even the OEM's cant fugure out.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Far as the comment about DEF being used as a deicer. Don't know about that. I do know that it solidifies at 34 degrees farenheight, that comes right from Cummins Diesel and Detroit Diesel. We have 3 IBC totes of DEF on hand all the time and they must stay inside the building in the winter. It even states the freezing point on the totes.

DEF tanks are all heated, either by resistance elements or coolant water heat exchangers..

The other big element involved is heat. Heat impacts longevity of an engine and with DEF and EGR and yes all DEF systems also are EGR as well. I think if you do some research that the old warranties are no longer offered. Example, DDEC could be had with a million mile warranty at added cost. The best you can do today is half that because the engines won't last even with a lot of internal components that are now ceramic. Both Cummins and Detroit extensively use ceramics in the overheads and the EGR side.

The new JD's with the big frontal area look swoopy right? They are that way because a DEF engine runs so hot that any restriction in air flow is dertimental to longevity.

In my arena, Freightliner had to redesign the front end on their Business Class cabs (6-7) because inherent engine heat was melting/warping the hoods.

So, not only do you wind up with a couple grand (ar least) of emissions related hardware, you get an engine that won't last nearly as long as the old school engines.

Caterpillar has the right idea but didn't refine the system enough and consequently the EPA levied a stiff fine on Cat and Cat got out of the on road business.

Cat employed what they termed a 'furnace'. What it was, was basically an afterburner behind the tubo's (Cat used cpmpound turbocharging on their Tier 4 engines). They injected diesel fuel into the chamber, injection controlled by the ICU sensing exhaust stream temperatures, engine load, ambient temperature and other factors. The diesel was ignited by, of all things, a sparkplug. The inferno inside the furnace burned off the particulates but the oxides of nitrogen still needed a downstream catalyist and the EPA, aka: gummit, didn't like that. They wanted a one shot system, hence DEF.

The Cummins ISX still has the best system both EGR and DEF. While not good internally for any diesel, Cummins EGR is the best option.

I was at the Cummins rollout for the ISX engine (which btw is used in ag applications) 2 years ago and got a glose up look at the internals (and the scantily clad gals too)..... If you flip an ISX block upside down and a Cat 3406 block upside down and put them next to each other, other than the red paint, there is no difference. Full skirted, oversized mains and extra internal gusseting.

If you ever get a chance to look inside the intake runner/manifold of an EGR engine, you'll be amazed. The interior of the runner will be coated with a layer of crystalized carbon and thats hell on intake valves and on cylinder walls and ring sets. Cummins big sore thumb is their turbochatger. It's destine to fail and does and the problem is, when a turbo comes apart, usually the hot side impeller gets ingested into the engine and thats not pretty. Not always, but usually.

Why I say, there is so much bad stuff going on inside a Tier 4 compliant engine, if you can wait a couple years for the technology to catch up to emissions mandates (and it will), you'll be better off waiting because that unit you buy today, loaded with emissions stuff that will become obsolete won't be worth squat, plus it's gonna be hell on wheels to fix and maintain.

I don't care what the salesperson tells you or the manufacturer says, I see the back end, the repair end and the cost end and I don't like it as an owner. I'll keep my mechainical direct injected diesel and you can have the 'green' stuff. When I get into the power band I expect to see some smoke. If there ain't no smoke, their ain't no fire.....

Guess I'm old school. Heck, I despise ULSD too.

I have a spare keyboard, I'm just too busy to install it....lol


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Lordy, ARD, great information but you are making me afraid to have anything new or start anything for fear of doomsday. I did ask the questions because I wanted exactly the feedback you are providing, so thanks. Anyone know off hand, how far back you have to go on a 6430 or 5115M or similar M to get to tier 3. My 6100D is a real simple tier 2 so maybe I have a gold mine-has less than 1000hrs and paid for.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

rick, i would think long and hard about getting rid of the D....it could very well increase in value....significantly.

Regards, Mike


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

The DEF engines run hotter as well due to the manufacturers taking advantage of the NOx reduction ability. The hotter they run the combustion chamber temps the higher efficiency they get in the engine to help fuel savings. Of course the hotter inside it is the more DEF you have to use to get rid of NOx.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Pretty sure my M126x is tier 3. Was heavily considering G135 with tier 4. 
Glad I went old school, but would have loved that newer, bigger cab. Lol


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Nothing like old school for simplicity and reliability, we have several Olivers that if their dead, roll em down a hill or bump start em as everything is mechanical, mechanical gauges and all.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Nothing like old school for simplicity and reliability, we have several Olivers that if their dead, roll em down a hill or bump start em as everything is mechanical, mechanical gauges and all.


That don't happen with the new engines, they don't bump start with a dead battery. You must have at least 11.5 volts to energize the electronic controls and make the ICU 'come alive'.

When you change fuel filters on an old engine, you fill the filter with diesel and crank ot up with maybe a whiff of either. Not with a new engine. You have to manually pressurize the fuel system so the ICU senses fuel pressure so it will allow the engine to fire......



Hayman1 said:


> Lordy, ARD, great information but you are making me afraid to have anything new or start anything for fear of doomsday. I did ask the questions because I wanted exactly the feedback you are providing, so thanks. Anyone know off hand, how far back you have to go on a 6430 or 5115M or similar M to get to tier 3. My 6100D is a real simple tier 2 so maybe I have a gold mine-has less than 1000hrs and paid for.


If 'old betsy' is shot and you must buy new, just be apprised of the pitfalls. It's not that Tier 4 compliant engines are bad ju-ju, it's just a new ballgame now. Procrdures that we've all fone in the past (like filter changes and priming) are all different now. Once you go to 100% electronic control, it eliminates the backyard mechanic and replaces you with a serial bus and a third party computer to get the unit going again. That don't set well out in the field with an issue and ot won't perform or even run.

We all know that manufacturers look for the least espensive suppliers because the bottom line is profit. I see that in electronic control failures all the time and these new engines are loaded with electronics.



slowzuki said:


> The DEF engines run hotter as well due to the manufacturers taking advantage of the NOx reduction ability. The hotter they run the combustion chamber temps the higher efficiency they get in the engine to help fuel savings. Of course the hotter inside it is the more DEF you have to use to get rid of NOx.


The hotter they run, the shorter the lifespan is. Thats why engine manufacturers lowered the warranty duration. They know in real life situations, a large percentage of the Tier 4 engines will fail. Of course they don't know the time in service versus failure rate but why loose your shirt on extended warramty trpairs, just eliminate the extended warranty or, require a surcharge. Cummins requires a 10 grand per engine up front surcharge on Class 8 ISX power plants for a 100,000K mile warranty, and many owners pay it (including us), because 10 grand is a piddly amount to cover a failure after the base warranty period.

Typically, parts and labor cost to rebuild a late model, electronically controlled engine will be in the neighborhood of $20,000.00 USD and thats a rebuild without special considerations.

Base compression ratio's haven't changed and neither has timing (other than the ICU controls the injection timing now. The reason they run 'hotter' is because of the emissions hardware. Not because of mechanical changes.

There is one, what I consider a positive aspect, and that is rhe ICU has complete control over injection timing so the days of a no start below freezing engine are gone. If the starting batteries can supply the amperage (and base voltage to energize the ICU) and the engine can make just one revolution, no matter how slow, it's gonna start because the ICU will advance the injection timing as far as it deems necessary to cause the engine to ignite the diesel.. As soon as the Hall effect sensor on the crank senses movement without the start circuit energized, it retards the timing in a millisecond, so fast you never know what the ICU did.

If you absolutely must have a new unit, make sure the starting batteries are always hot. Parking it in the barn over the winter, it needs a battery tender or solar maintainer. Thats one reason you see most new on road trucks have auxillary power packs, not only because states like California and New Jersey have passed laws regarding excessive idle time, but because what we call 'shore power' or an auxillary power unit, keeps the batteries hot, circulates warm coolant in the engine and DEF tank and eliminates sustained idle periods. A side benefit is it maintains the enviroment in the sleeper cab for the driver too.

I'll keep my Interem Tier 4 Kubota's. The only electronics are the fuel solenoid and TPS interlock.

I see the new Kubota large frames are using a cannister collection system (and I presume EGR) to satisify Tier 4 requirements. They have mounted the cannister on top of the engine right in front of the firewall and added a cold air scoop on the hood (I presume in hopes that it will provide additional cooling air).... Thats gonna be a hot baby.

I read the advertising hype on Kubota's website and JD's and NH and everyone else's and it's basically hype. Bottom line is there is no way under current technology that any engine manufacturer can meet Tier 4 mandates and not use at least 2 of the current options which are EGR, DEF or DPF. One alone won't do it.

Physics wise nothing changes internally. The engine compresses air, diesel is injected, it combusts spontaneously from heat induced pressure and provides pressure on the piston which, in turn produces power. Whats changed is the controls that determine injection timing and what happens to the spent exhaust gasses before they are expelled to the atmosphere.

It all sucks but we need to be 'green', no matter what the cost. It's what the gummit wants.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Poured a few loads of cement at the VFW this morning, one of the guys helping works seconds at Preston as a mechanic and pretty much repeated everything ARD said though not near as politely. Lot of salty language involved on what a total POS the tier 4's are.

Then a rep from the concrete supplier stopped in to see how it was going, got to talking to him and they are having all their trucks refurbished as they aren't about to buy any new ones with the tier 4 stuff. Guess they've been stockpiling spare motors when they can as well as they feel the old school motors might get scarce.


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Poured a few loads of cement at the VFW this morning, one of the guys helping works seconds at Preston as a mechanic and pretty much repeated everything ARD said though not near as politely. Lot of salty language involved on what a total POS the tier 4's are.
> 
> Then a rep from the concrete supplier stopped in to see how it was going, got to talking to him and they are having all their trucks refurbished as they aren't about to buy any new ones with the tier 4 stuff. Guess they've been stockpiling spare motors when they can as well as they feel the old school motors might get scarce.


I think the article Vol posted a few days ago about JD laying off 600 workers is a result of the Tier 4 engines and customers not wanting to buy them in addition to lower grain prices. I wonder if there are lower sales across the heavy machinery industry as a result of Tier 4 also. Thanks EPA and government for once again killing jobs.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Poured a few loads of cement at the VFW this morning, one of the guys helping works seconds at Preston as a mechanic and pretty much repeated everything ARD said though not near as politely. Lot of salty language involved on what a total POS the tier 4's are.
> 
> Then a rep from the concrete supplier stopped in to see how it was going, got to talking to him and they are having all their trucks refurbished as they aren't about to buy any new ones with the tier 4 stuff. Guess they've been stockpiling spare motors when they can as well as they feel the old school motors might get scarce.


Everyone I know (including myself) are/is hanging on to the old stuff or getting it rebuilt.

Hot setup now is buying a glider kit (cab and chassis) and swapping out old components into the new unit. Trucks title on the cab VIN so you get a new unit with old school components.

I own a International Eagle Double bunk conventional double sleeper with a Cat 3406 E and a 14613 double over on 373 rears model which is still mechanically injected and a million mile engine. Don't use it much, sits in the barn most of the time and appreciates......

We wonder how long it will take technology to catch up and emissions systems become more reliable. It took about 10 years for the automakers to get to the point where the hardware was basically eliminated and engines tofay, are emission compliant, make more power per cubic inch than ever before and you can actually do routine maintenance yourself.

I believe pre Tier 4 engines will command a high dollar, no matter what the brand is.

Big problem with Caterpillar is the OEM replacement parts are scarce too. Cat divoriced itself from the on road market and left literally thousands of die hard Cat owners without support.

Next thing in the works is gaseous fueled diesels but there is big issues concerning high pressure storage of LNG on a chassis and refuling too. You just don't stick a nozzle in a hole and pump in LNG...... you'd be gone in a flash....

You go to LNG and you eliminate all the emissions hardware, but the engines have to be highly modified to run on it (ignition systems and the like). Cummins and Detroit already have LNG engines in limited production so I see that happening fairly soon.

At the last International truck show in Louisville, Freightliner had a Class 8 LNG unit on display.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

JD3430 said:


> Pretty sure my M126x is tier 3. Was heavily considering G135 with tier 4.
> Glad I went old school, but would have loved that newer, bigger cab. Lol


So long as it don't have a DPF can on top of the engine.....

I'm real comfortable running my M9 and my 105X for as long as I need to. Kubota engines are basically bulletproof (at least the pre-tier 4 ones are).

Your 550 is another story. I hope you got the extended warranty. A friend just got a 350 crew cab and if you open the hood, there is nothing user friendly under there. In fact, it's scary under there....

I'll keep my 97 7.3 350 crew cab 4x4. I can find the engine....... Besides, I yanked all the emissions stuff long ago, added a full Banks kit with intercooler so power isn't an issue and neither is fuel mileage.

If Ford just got smart and contracted with Allison, all would be good.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Throughout all the disertation and comments I forgot to add one important aspect.

Fuel mileage or GPH as it pertains to off road engines that I can't comment on because with us, everything is on road but....

We went from a fleet average of almost 6mpg (per tier 4 engines) across 100 trucks, to less than 4.5 as we rolled in the Tier 4 compliant engines, not including DEF which is inconsequential cost wise anyway.... and we aren't completely Tier 4 yet though we will be in the upcoming year.

That alone tells me that the newer engines are less efficient despite what the manufacturers claim.

I like to sift the fantasy from the facts....

I'll keep spraying it on my hay (DEF) at least it's good for that.

Now, if I can just find gathering wheel assemblies at less than a stupid cost for my new 450 NH, I'll be happy.....


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Funny stuff ARD.....get that man some gathering wheels!.....appreciate the sharing of knowledge . I'm all pre-tier and I thnk I'll keep it that way for a while! I'ma be in-line to scarf up any surplus DEF when they finally do away with the ridiculous mess! Thanks again...


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I just wanted to return after updating myself. There are lots of Tier 4A examples with DEF only, NO DPF, no egr. Tier 4B cranked up the heat and lots of the EGR/DPF units had to add DEF too in order to meet but there are still DEF only models out there meeting T4B.

In tractors, the DPF is cleaned by burning not manually dumping it out, if the temps don't get high enough the tractor burns diesel in an exhaust heater to do it for you. If you have a Tier 4a or b without SCR/DEF you have EGR and a DPF.

The on-road and off-road standards must be a bit different or have different hp break points for what levels of emissions are required.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

I suspect the on road standards are tighter than the off road standards because you didn't really see a large emissions push until this year whereas the on road market has been advancing for at least 5 years now.

Far as the DPF doing a self regen using diesel fuel as the combustion vehicle, thats exactly what CAT attempted and the EPA shot that down but that again, was on road.

My issue with DPF and self regen is the heat issue again and to a lesser degree, the electronics.

My take is and still is to stay the course with a pre Tier 4 engine until it gets sorted out, if you can and if you can't, opt for the least complex system which, of course would be DPF. DEF brings so much more in complex electronics and hardware into the picture. The more complex any system is, the more chance of breakdown from component failure.

I'm reasonably sure with a DPF system you'll wind up with EGR as well and I know from observation that any EGR system on a diesel introfuces crystaline carbon in the intake runner, intake valves and cylinders and that in itself is very detrimental to engine longevity.

Bottom line here is they (Tier 4 compliant) aren't going to last nearly as long as they used to no matter what you do.

I cringed with the advent of ULSD because sulfur is a lubricant for injector pintles and micro honed mechanical pump surfaces but I (we) can get around that by adding a proprietary lubricant such as Lucas or Cat additive (which I use) or even 2 stroke oil (Bob the Oil Guy says thats good).

You can't circumvent the Tier 4 mandate. Your only option is to wait until technology advances enough to impart better reliability or keep your old school engines and rebuild them.

I'll go with the latter myself.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

In ag engines, my personal favourite is the DEF only solution. It means no egr, no exhaust cooler, no DPF, and only a DEF injector and SCR box. They don't plug up, higher efficiency that the egr models by about 10%.

The worst would have to be the combo systems with both DEF and DPF/EGR.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ARD Farm said:


> I cringed with the advent of ULSD because sulfur is a lubricant for injector pintles and micro honed mechanical pump surfaces but I (we) can get around that by adding a proprietary lubricant such as Lucas or Cat additive (which I use) or even 2 stroke oil (Bob the Oil Guy says thats good).


Lots of guys on the Cummins forums that are running hopped up 5.9's swear by adding a quart of two stroke oil to every fill up. We have on road fuel here at the farm with 5% bean oil. I keep a couple of quarts of two stroke in my truck just in case in case I have to fill up away from home.

Something else the mechanic friend brought up while pouring the cement yesterday, with as hot as some of the components get on these Tier 4 engines, he can't see it being a good thing for a combine that is constantly exposed to chaff and dust.

One last thing I recall now since it's been brought up here, the rep from the cement company said if they do have to replace any trucks in the near future, they are seriously considering LNG vehicles.

Makes you wonder if the government is just trying to kill diesel engines all together?

So I wonder how europe manages this? Or do the tier four crap only apply to heavy engines? I know for awhile in europe they've had diesel cars that supposedly what came out the exhaust pipe is cleaner than what went in the intake. The one cousin had just bought a 2014 Volvo diesel, very nice car, very smooth and even standing outside it while it was running you couldn't tell it was a diesel. He never mentioned anything about needing DEF. Supposedly european pollution standards are California standards but even tighter.


----------



## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Many euro diesels use DEF, lots call it adblue over there. Should add, been used a lot longer there too, I think some have 10 years or more history with it.


----------



## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

The world is fed by farmers running tractors with def fluid. It's not the devil guys.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Colby said:


> The world is fed by farmers running tractors with def fluid. It's not the devil guys.


True Colby, but the premise of this discussion appears to be headed (at least in my mind) is the technology keeping up with the standards or are manufactures having to employ stop-gap measures to ensure compliance, measures that eventually affect every one of those farmers bottom line. For me personally, I think ima wait it out as long as I can. But I can afford to wait it out, some of the BTO can't and that's where it could hurt the most.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I wonder if big brother is considering "outlawing" rather than "grandfathering" older higher emission diesel powered equipment, or making us pay fines on them. 
I wouldn't consider anything beyond tier 3 at this point until the systems become more reliable.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Neither I'd say. Engines made prior to Tier 3-4 mandates were manufactured under pending emissions guidelines of that period. Just as legal today as they were when built.

Thats why most small fleet op's and owner operators of Class 8 trucks I know are all planning on glider kits when the 'wallpaper' becomes terminal. I don't believe you can do that with a tractor, but on road trucks, mo problem.


----------



## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

So with a glider kit, the truck owners provide the engine, gearbox and rear axles? The kit comes includes the cab, frame and front axle?


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If they were to make all emissions standards retroactive forget about all your classic cars as well.

Previous emissions standards were never retroactive, however I could almost see the current administration pulling some BS like that and calling it an "economic stimulus".


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

mlappin said:


> If they were to make all emissions standards retroactive forget about all your classic cars as well.
> 
> Previous emissions standards were never retroactive, however I could almost see the current administration pulling some BS like that and calling it an "economic stimulus".


I'd call it forced Democratic bankruptcy. What a scary thought.

I'm driving a 'almost classic car'.... telling you how bad I need a new one.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> If they were to make all emissions standards retroactive forget about all your classic cars as well.
> 
> Previous emissions standards were never retroactive, however I could almost see the current administration pulling some BS like that and calling it an "economic stimulus".


Right, that's what I mean, you just said it better.
I think what they might do is tax you for owning a pre-tier X tractor. They might give you a tax incentive for trading it in. Maybe like a cash for clunkers based program (even though older tractors are sought after)
I wouldn't put anything past this administration, they're more intent on punishing productive people than the terrorists and lawbreakers that hurt us.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> I wouldn't put anything past this administration, they're more intent on punishing productive people than the terrorists and lawbreakers that hurt us.


Who is John Galt?


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Bonfire said:


> So with a glider kit, the truck owners provide the engine, gearbox and rear axles? The kit comes includes the cab, frame and front axle?


Basically, yes. You can spec it any way you want like say you want a heavier front axle and larger brakes (which happens to be a FMVSS standard now), you order the glider with an upgraded front axle. Most guys use their old axles, gearbox and engine but sometimes (if the donor truck was in a wreck lets say) buyers may spec eunning gear.

I've seen just a cab and frame rails and I've seen everything but the engine and gearbox.

Keep in mind that unlike cars and pickups, no heavy duty truck manufacrurer makes anything but the sheet metal (or fiberglass) and frame rails. Everything else is outsourced except Vol-Mack. Mack makes their own engines and so does Volvo but they still use an outsourced transmission, usually Eaton. Rears are Eaton or Rockwell gearboxes are Fuller Eaton or Rockwell.


----------



## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I am a little late to your discussion,but don't say never with goverment.There is all kinds of garbage here in California.I am small so have not kept up but there is cash for old tractors program that makes new tractors cheap but you need to put a lot of hours per year on.Which is not hard for the BTO since you can do something all year here.The old trade in tractor has to go to China for a melt down no used parts as it has to run when delivered to scrap yard.They are outlawing all over the road tractors that are I think 94 and older unless you put clean air updates on them. There is a out for seasonal ag use of trucks with less than 5000 miles a year, or maybe it's 10,000 miles.

I have been told European standards are a lot different than what EPA wants so are clean engines fail over there and theirs fail here.

I feel for those of you that have to run this new stuff that is a experment .The cars of the 80's where kind of like that with the first computers that shopes were not ready to deal with.I had a 80 Chevy car that had electrionics problems that it was much easier to get rid of than get fixed because nobody knew how.But now most cars engines can get 300,000 miles without much trouble which was unheard of in the 60's.So I think someone will figure out the clean air stuff on big engines but much pain until then ,and we get to pay for EPA experments.


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Ray 54 said:


> I am a little late to your discussion,but don't say never with goverment.There is all kinds of garbage here in California.I am small so have not kept up but there is cash for old tractors program that makes new tractors cheap but you need to put a lot of hours per year on.Which is not hard for the BTO since you can do something all year here.The old trade in tractor has to go to China for a melt down no used parts as it has to run when delivered to scrap yard.They are outlawing all over the road tractors that are I think 94 and older unless you put clean air updates on them. There is a out for seasonal ag use of trucks with less than 5000 miles a year, or maybe it's 10,000 miles.
> 
> I have been told European standards are a lot different than what EPA wants so are clean engines fail over there and theirs fail here.
> 
> I feel for those of you that have to run this new stuff that is a experment .The cars of the 80's where kind of like that with the first computers that shopes were not ready to deal with.I had a 80 Chevy car that had electrionics problems that it was much easier to get rid of than get fixed because nobody knew how.But now most cars engines can get 300,000 miles without much trouble which was unheard of in the 60's.So I think someone will figure out the clean air stuff on big engines but much pain until then ,and we get to pay for EPA experments.


We had an attempt to get a similar law passed a few years ago here in Colorado. If I remember it right all ag tractors and semi tractors older then 1994 or something would have to either be replace or updated with air systems. Thankfully it failed. Though I fear that it might pass now......


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Good ole peoples republic of Colorado and California.

The reason at least on cars why you don't see their engines here is the big three can't compete. The first diesels that had cleaner emissions than what they took in were in europe. Cousin over there had an Audi A4, thing was a rocket, rode in it for days before I even knew it was a diesel, he averaged 54 mpg and drove it like he stole it.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Seen a brand new UPS truck today, a dually van even, had "Unleaded Fuel Only" right at the fill cap.


----------



## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

The diesel manufacturers are going thru what the auto industry went thru in the 80's. Remember computer controlled carbs, smog pumps and vacuum lines running everywhere under the hood? It will get better but it may take awhile. Personally I'll stick with what I have as long as I can and do a lot more research before buying a new one than I have in the past.


----------



## ARD Farm (Jul 12, 2012)

Was at my NH dealer today for some parts and they also sell Kioti (not large enough for my needs) but was looking under the hood of an open station fwa and they are going Kubota's route with EGR and DPF.

My experience with EGR on a diesel is it's very hard on the intake side with crystallized carbon in the intake runner and valves.

None of it is any good IMO.


----------

