# Small Northeast Texas Hay Operation - Advice (Getting Started)



## Robert1617 (Nov 13, 2009)

Looking to possibly get involved with some haying in Northeast Texas this coming spring/summer area. Would probably be some variety of Bermuda (e.g. Coastal Bermuda, etc.) and be between 10-25 acres. Sounds like a starting point is to get a soil test to see what fertilizers are needed. Have a few questions for the experts on this forum.

1.	Do sickle bar mowers work very well? Are they reliable?
2.	How long does the cut hay need to lay in the field before it is raked?
3.	What moisture content is ideal before baling? Can you take samples from the windrows and measure with a meter? How long does cut hay to dry to the ideal moisture content?
4.	What hay height is ideal for cutting?
5.	About how much time should you allow between cuttings? Sure rain fall is key.
6.	Are square or round balers better to use?

Any other advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm from a different part of the country and have never seen Bermuda but...regardless of what your growing fertility always plays a huge part in deciding if your wasting your time or doing something productive.

Far as rounds versus squares, large squares or small squares? It does make a difference when compared to round bales. I'm assuming when you say use your feeding your own critters.

Look at it this way, I figure in a good solid 4x5 round bale I have the equivalent of 20 small 50 lb square bales. When it finally dried out this summer and the cows got ahead of the pastures, I was feeding 6 round bales at a time to them or if it was small small squares a 120 of them. Only took me about twenty minutes to drive to where the hay is stored twice, grab three at a time (two on the loader, one on the three point) and remove the net wrap and place em, can't say I could feed a 120 small squares in that time frame even if they were right where I was feeding them.

Another big selling point on round bales, if you dont have indoor storage for them they can be stored out side where large or small squares can't.


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## TNKid (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm definitely not an expert but I'll give you what I know.
1. I've never mowed hay with a sickle bar, but a lot of folks do well with them. The time to cure is extended by not using a conditioner like is on a haybine or discbine.
2. Your local conditions, some trial and error, whether or not you use a tedder and some experience will determine when you rake. I have put up second cutting fescue/clover in two days and first and third cutting in as long as 4-5 days. My preference is to let my hay lay in a windrow for a couple hours before baling unless I'm trying to beat the rain.
3. Typically you want less than 18% moisture content. I don't use a meter but I will have one by next season. I judge it by eye and I have used the microwave method a few times if I'm not sure.
4/5. Bermuda isn't a popular hay crop in my area so I don't have a clue on these two, but I think you can mow bermuda about monthly and I could also be completely wrong.
6. The answer to this one will vary from person to person. To use would definitely be rounds or big squares for cattle if you can handle them. For horses I like small squares. To sell ??? that depends on how many and to who. Small or big squares are easier to pack for hauling a long distance. And as mentioned above, storage can be a determining factor on this question.

Best of luck!


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Robert1617 said:


> 1.	Do sickle bar mowers work very well? Are they reliable?
> 2.	How long does the cut hay need to lay in the field before it is raked?
> 3.	What moisture content is ideal before baling? Can you take samples from the windrows and measure with a meter? How long does cut hay to dry to the ideal moisture content?
> 4.	What hay height is ideal for cutting?
> ...


1. I use a sickle mower (NH 456) and on smaller fields it works fine. You can go faster with a disc mower but it won't make much difference on 10-25 acre fields. With normal maintenance they last a long time. Mine is probably 20-25 years old.
2. Depends on the local conditions and the type of bermuda. I've got fields of Tifton-85 and Common/Bahia.I typically cut on day one and bale on day three. This year I had one cutting where I cut it and raked/baled it the next day. That's not normal for where I am, it was unusually dry.
3. Ideally 18% or a little less for small squares. I stay in that same area with rounds as well, but I do very few rounds. I can usually tell by feeling it and I stick a probe in the bales to make sure. I'm putting a sensor on my baler this winter, but I don't think it will change anything I currently do.
4. & 5 In a typical year, I usually cut Tifton every 25-30 days and usually go 30-40 days on the Common/Bahia. It depends on the rain/fertilizer/temps/etc. This year I cut it when I thought I could get anything.
6. I bale small squares because I'm feeding horses and it's easier for my operation. I also use a Hoelscher accumulator & grapple. When I do rounds I make 4X5's and usually sell them. I don't know that either baler is "better" to use. Each has it's idiosyncrasies and the type of bale I make depends on what I'm going to do with it.

Spend some time going through the old posts on this forum. All of your questions have been discussed at length and there is a wealth of information you can use. Good Luck!


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

In my area round bales are not very well received by hay buyers. My customers like bales that flake and round bales don't do that well I'm told. They sell for much less per ton. But if vs large square the round baler machinery is much cheaper. To get into large squares from nothing you would need to spend at the very least $100k for decent equipment. Not worth it for 25 acres. Not worth it for 160 acres. Small square I would say you could get started under $20k easily. I have no idea about rounds. Small square would be the cheapest to get into I think especially since you are doing just a small acreage and can probably stack the hay by hand. Though like said above small squares have to be stored inside. Some just tarp the small bales in my area, but some still go bad. In my area nearly all large square bales are stored outside. I don't know what Bermuda is like at all when it grows tall. As for sickle mowers I wouldn't go back to a sickle machine. Though I've only ever used a sickle mower for just cutting weeds around the farm. But then for 15-25 acres it might do until you get larger. But honestly for 15-25 acres you might just want to hire custom balers, mowers, or stackers to do the haying for you as you learn the first few years. Maybe just get a mower, tractor and hire out the baling? It's hard to mess up hay cutting it. But you can really ruin hay not baling at the right time until you learn what is right for your area.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Like it has been pointed out several times, it depends on your area. For future reference you can add your location to your profile.

This year hay is short and any type of bale sells well. In the past as well I've gotten a much per ton for round bales as small squares were selling for. But I also make _quality_ rounds, mowed on time, baled dry, and stored inside on their ends so they are as round as they day they came out of the baler. Most of the haty I haul in has never seen a drop of rain from the time it was mowed till stored. The stuff that doesn't get made right I usually feed my beef cows.

In years that round bales are selling less per ton than small squares, I still figure I'm coming out ahead as I'm a one man show and can for the most part make my 225 acres of alfalfa/orchard grass hay by myself. With the capacity my round baler has I figured I'd have to have two small square balers to bale the same amount of hay per hour as my round baler, then would have to have a second tractor and person to run it, then enough help to get those small squares picked up and inside as fast as we make em. Has happened several times in the past but just get done baling and the rain rolls in, doesn't hurt net wrapped round bales much but if I had a field full of small squares waiting to be picked up it wouldn't have been good.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

On second thought after reading what Mlappin says about picking up the small bales is right. I have a couple of 25 acre orchard/brome grass fields that first cutting produces 2000 small bales each. I wouldn't want to load those bales by hand, with a grapple, wagon, or even a pull type NH stack wagon. We are fortunate to have a self propelled NH stacker. But if my dad didn't help me as the baler man we wouldn't get it all in the buildings in one day. Which is why we have gone to the larger square bales so I can really be a one man show much like a round baler, but pricier. But it all comes down to how you want to start out and what types of hay is selling best in your area.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

A simple sickle mower works just fine. I prefer a disk mower for the ease of installing fresh blades. That just may be me. 
For bermudagrass you do not really NEED a mower conditioner. Bermudagrass is 60% - 70% leaves and leaves cure rapidly if you leave the hay our in a wide swath. Unconditioned Bermudagrass hay will cure quicker left wide than conditioned hay dropped into a windrow. By a day or more!

In NE TX leave the hay out flat the day you mow and the next day. Rake the hay the morning, at first light, the morning of the third day. Plan on baling about noon the fourth day or fifth day.

A universal truth: When the humidity, down next to the hay, is at or above 90% the hay will be no lower than 40% moisture. This is when you want to rake. 
Fully cured hay will be between 18% & 20% moisture when the humidity is at or below 70%. At or below 65% humidity the fully cured hay will be 16% to 18% moisture, just right for round baling. 
Somewhere between 55% & 50% humidity the loss of leaves will be excessive. 
There is no NEED to bale at night in NE TX so we will leave that alone.

Hay Moisture is a tricky thing. What you want is the hay to be dried to maybe 10% moisture the 30% moisture and the stems are still 10% moisture. Average 20% moisture. This way you save the most leaves.
If the stems are 18% moisture you may be able to get by baling with the leaves at 22% moisture. Maybe. 
If unlikely situation you have leave at 10% moisture and stems at 30% moisture you will shatter off most of the leaves and bale up a bundle of stems that will go into a big sweat and mold.
I use an on the go moisture tester. I expect to bale dry stems and limp leaves.

Sixty years ago we baled by guess and by gosh. An educated guess but still a guess.
Twenty five years ago I got an on the go moisture. Ten years ago I got a humidity tester that will work down next to the windrow. I am a slow learner.

The time required to cure hay is a function of the pan evaporation and the how much hay is exposed to the sun. Figure a total of 0.60" of pan evaporation.

Height to cut depends on you. Fertilize with 300 lbs of actual nitrogen per year and you will have hay that is ready to cut in 4 to 5 weeks. Up the annual nitrogen to 400 lbs and you will cut at a 42 day interval & if you do your part bale 12% protein bermudagrass hay. Full length of the plant will be 18" to 24". 
Around a 48 day interval the leaves on the lower part of the stems will be gone and quality will suffer as will yield. 
Bermudagrass that is 10" tall can bale 30 bales an acre.
Bermudagrass that is 14" tall can bale 44 bales an acre.
Bermudagrass that is 19" tall can bale 60 bales an acre.
Bermudagrass that is 25" tall can bale 80 bales an acre.
Bermudagrass that is 35" tall can bale 100 bales an acre.

Do all that in less than 6 weeks and you will have Premium Hay.
Just think of this. There is close to 50 lbs of actual nitrogen in each 35 bales of 12% CP hay.

All else being equal square bales will have 1 - 2 percent higher protein. A round baler simply shatters off a higher percentage of leaves.

I suggest you become a member of the East Texas Hay Growers. Try Jim Guthrie at [email protected].

You could contact you County Agent, and or Dr. Vanessa Corriher [email protected] out of Overton.


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## Robert1617 (Nov 13, 2009)

Hay Wilson in Texas -

Thanks for the very detail and helpful information...I really appreciate it. When you mentioned the 300lbs on nitrogen fertilizer, is this the amount you would need at each application for an approx. 20 acre plot or is this the amount one would need in total for the entire year? This is granular fertilizer correct? What does fertilizer generally cost? Is it easier to have your own spreader or use a co-op pullable buggy. Any idea what it costs to rent or use a co-op pullable fertilizer buggy? What would be a typical fertilizer schedule for bermuda grass in NE Texas (e.g. in April, after each cutting, etc.)? Again, thanks for all the helpful info!


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## Robert1617 (Nov 13, 2009)

Hay Wilson in Texas-

As far a ground/soil preperation for bermuda grass, does a prospective field have to be plowed, disked, and then drilled, or can coastal bermuda seed be broadcast over an existing pasture, that has say been bush-hogged close to the ground?

Thanks,

Robert1617


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Fertilizer figure 3 cuttings devide the nitrogen into 3 and apply 80 or so at greenup with any weed killer as needed. then apply another 80 or so after the first and second cutting, any leftafter the last cutting.

Coastal does not have viable seed, you get someone to sprig in coastal roots. Starting from scratch you might be better sprigging in Tiffton 85 bermudagrass. Jiggs is supposed to work well in East Texas also. For seeded bermudagrass check with Oveton.

You will also want some phosphate and potassium fertilizer. One time in the spring and again in the fall. You need soill test for the amount. Probably some lime also


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Coastal comes up from a root, is a hybrid, hence can't replicate from a seed. It has to be sprigged (root stock stuck in the ground). Buttt I have fed rolls to my cattle and a year or so later had a nice round patch of coastal where the bales sat.

Coastal is a taller growing grass than common bermuda. But if you are serious, things like Tifton 85 bermuda will make you a much better stand and hay.

Looking at the TAMU Agricultural facility at Renner (Plano) Tx., about 30 days is where you want to remove your grass for best forage; obviously won't max your volume, but if you are after quality, that's the number.

Being thin stemmed and bladed, on a hot summers day, you could cut one day, do the 3 turn see if it breaks hand test and if so, bale the next day or the day after. Horse lovers think their hay has to be bright green and sweet smelling for their precious horses and that is how you cater to that crowd......potential consumer....lots of $$$$ for you.

But all that stuff is in the mind of the horse lover. I have seen/had horses eat right along with cattle on year old Hay Grazer with stalks as big as your middle finger and never go to the vet......but these horse lovers make a ton of money for the hay growers.....so let them have their wish.....$$$$$

Mark


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## Robert1617 (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks...when you say "Looking at the TAMU Agricultural facility at Renner (Plano) Tx., about 30 days is where you want to remove your grass for best forage....", what do you mean by the TAMU Agricultural facility at Renner (Plano, Tx)? Is there research coming out of there on hay production? Is there a website, you were referencing?

Thanks again,

Robert1617


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

I have a small operation and have leased land when I felt like I wanted to expand. Cost was always a consideration on equipment as I had a city job and the farm was for the enjoyment of being with nature and satisfying my real property farm exemption tax credit requirements. I usually seemed to have more expenses than income and had to keep a lid on expenses to remain friendly with IRS.

I tried several sickle mowers and I just can't get them to work. Being of inquisitive mind, and having adequate motor/mechanical/electrical skills, I would analyze why they didn't work for me and modify them to see if I couldn't make them work. I couldn't. I know that millions of acres have been successfully cut with them, but not for me.

First of all if I were cutting sorghum/hay grazer for hay I certainly need to condition (crush the stalks to let the moisture out) after the cut and the second problem was that the hay fields on my place and leased always seem to have some pie shape to them and when it's spring and early summer, the hay has plenty of water in it and it just balls up when you make the sharp, less than, 90 degree turn...and I have tried numerous ways to execute the turn and numerous shapes to the side board.

So, I bought a swather which is essentially a sickle bar cutter and a set of rollers, with a deflector in the back that puts it in as much of a wind row as you wish....don't want much initially as you want to maximize your exposure to the sun, but you want enough so as to have clear access to the uncut grass closest to where you cut.....if that is loaded up with cut residue, you will leave grass standing and that is not what I nor you want. Additionally, using something like a JD 1209 (9 ft sickle with an array of spring fingers feeding hay into the bar and keeping it swept out.....so that the blades can cut and not get all gummed up with damp, previously cut hay....which always has been a problem for me, a pair of rollers to smash the stems, and windrower chute) With the drawbar extender that comes with it, I can cut a perfect corner even on the wedges....and I use(d) the dreawbar type, not the slick one (newer style and much more expensive) that has a boom whereby you can put the swather on the left, right, or wherever. Additionally, the swather being hydraulically operated and having it's own tires for support, you can move your cutter up or down fast and accurately control the height of your stubble, which is important in keeping enough to feed nutrients to the regrowth effort for growing out your next cutting.

I bought a tedder which is just a mixer and it just stirs the grass up. If you are using thin stemmed grass like bermuda, you can stir every hour or so and in the afternoon, before the sun gets too far in the west, where the ground starts to cool off and your moisture content starts rising, you can get your "pristeen horse (lovers) quality" green bermuda that smells sweet like fresh cut hay.

I have baled rolls and squares. Have had Hesston, and JD on rollers and the JD was the best and least trouble to run (JD530). Hesston was OK but had thinner belts and wide belts make for a more cylindrical shaped bale; had twine tie systems.

On squares, I had a NH wire, JD twine, Ford, and Case IH (the newest). The NH had an enclosed drive shaft which was a real pain and it was almost impossible to grease the 3 bearings in the driveshaft in addition to being hard to swing it out when getting to the field. The JD twine was fine (JD24T) but the rats liked the twine. The Ford worked ok but had serious mechanical problems that I couldn't fix. The flywheel was massive and the support mechanisms were cast iron and it was just too much for me to fix working alone....it did a fine job of baling. The Case IH ate at least 10 spring pickup fingers every time I took it out, I don't care how much I adjusted things and how high (within reason) I set the cutter.

Small squares require some type of pickup and stacking mechanism. If you are working alone and YOU ARE THAT MECHANISM from field pickup to barn stacking, you can go through a lot of beer getting enough carbs to have enough energy. At 70 is was more than I could handle. Day workers were 25 miles away and every time you got some you didn't know what you were getting, had to be trained, ad had to be taken back to town when finished.....just too much hassle.....oh and then there was the rain spook. Can't rain on square bales and you don't want it raining on your field before you cut it so rain was a constant menance.....course you had to have it to get the hay in the first place.

I fed 5x6 rolls sitting on their side, strings cut and removed and in an 8' hay ring. They weighed enough that a 40 horse tractor needed some weight up front to keep the front tires on the ground...or if you are foolish, steer with your rear brakes. Stacked in a roll to protect the ends but that made a ditch and if you didn't stack them on high ground and sometimes when you did, you had these humongus ruts as you got farther and farther back in the stack.

Phew I'm tired. HTH

Mark


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Robert1617 said:


> Thanks...when you say "Looking at the TAMU Agricultural facility at Renner (Plano) Tx., about 30 days is where you want to remove your grass for best forage....", what do you mean by the TAMU Agricultural facility at Renner (Plano, Tx)? Is there research coming out of there on hay production? Is there a website, you were referencing?
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Robert1617


No. I have a hard bound book: "Agricultural Research at Renner 1944-1966"; published by the Texas Research Foundation in 1967. Surely Renner has a site as does Overton.

Renner is sort of unique as what used to be in the country back then, it is in the center of urbania today.....so here is this low/no tax income producing property in the middle of a high dollar advalorem district. Gov Dolph Briscoe fixed that ...in Texas ad valorem is based upon usury value.....course Renner is probably exempt from Taxation.

They had strips of things that they experimented with and wrote papers about; different crops, showing effects of fertilizer and types. Main theme was do something and record the results. Very little on advising you on what to do; just what they did and how it turned out.....course that's what papers are made from for grad courses and all.

Mark


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

References a partial listing. 
http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/5811.pdf

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/5811.pdf

Management Tips for Round Bale Hay Harvesting, Moving, and Storage - Home - Virginia Cooperative Extension

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/pubs/drying_forage.pdf

I did not check to see if the links are still active. Extension services make changes to look active.

Will try to put forth a more comprehinsive listing later. There is a listing on file in this site also.


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