# Just starting... newer or older equipment



## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

Well my username says it all I'm just starting out and I'm trying to get the basics knocked out. We have approximately 60 acres that used to get baled for free for numerous years now. We are going to begin baling ourselves and trying to sell. We are located in northern WI and I'm having problems figuring out exactly how I should go about doing this. Currently the fields are primarily birdsfoot, brome, and some timothy. I purchased a New Holland TB100 so I should have more than enough tractor to handle most anything a guy needs for working smaller acreage. There is potential to expand on neighbors properties as well. My friend has a 3000 acre farm down south and he is telling me that I should spend the extra money to purchase something newer so it will be relatively more dependable as well as potentially avoiding repairs. What say you? There is a John Deere 1209 for sale for $1200 but my friend is telling me I should spend $3500 for a New Holland 499. It kind of makes sense to purchase cheaper machinery right now so I can get a feel for how to do this but it also makes sense to buy something a little newer so I know it's dependable. I'm also unsure as far as round baler size:confused: We won't be able to provide transport so it will be pickup only. Would we be better off with getting a 4' by 4' round baler? Or should we get a 5' by 5'? I don't know what's easier to sell/more marketable.

I really appreciate any info anybody is able to offer. Huge learning curve here for me as it is with many that first start i'm sure

Thanks in advance!


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## nwfarmer (Jun 16, 2009)

You may want to check the hay market to see what is selling best in your area. You mentioned pick up only because of lack of transportation. Have you got a plan to get the hay out of the field after it is baled? If you get 240 tons of hay off that 60 acres how much machinery can you afford?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Welcome to Haytalk

Cutting grass hay I would think about using a disc mower.Could also use a tedder to aid in drying.And a rotary rake would be nice also.But that all costs some $.









Cutting grass hay with mower/conditioners can suck in poor conditions of wet,thick hay.Can plug alot.Grass in a windrow will take forever to dry out,it needs to be laid out or tedded to get it dry.

I think I would go with a 4x5 solid core baler.you can make bales 1000# and you could make 4x4 bales for people that can't handle the larger bales.It depends on YOUR market.With 4' wide bale less issues with load widths.Baler with net wrap would be nice also, most buyers like it more and it speeds up baling.

Good Luck


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Good question, Greenhorn!

The answer is: It all depends!. nwfarmer gae you some good thoughts, and here are some more questions for you to consider:

Are you a good mechanic? 
Will the weather in your area allow you to be down at least one day because of a breakdown? 
Can you handle the stress of an equipment failure? 
Do you have a friend or neighbor close by that can step in for you if you have an extended outage?
Can you handle risk without taking it out on your spouse or dog? 
Do you plan on expanding the acres?
Can you afford newer equipment financially with minimal, or preferably no borrowing?
Can you afford to carry things for 2-4 years while you learn what works best for you in your area?
Do you have multiple moderate size customers available in case one or more leave?
Do you have time to get it all done in a crunch?
Do you have an "exit" plan, i.e., how do you get out if things don't work out?

Yesterday, I had 30 ac. of good quality alfalfa/OG down, one tractor unavailable and the guy who said he would help couldn't get here, Mother's day today and rain called for Monday. I raked and baled it all myself--started at 9:30AM, finished at 8:00PM. Today, I need to clear 120 BR bales off the fields.

My stress level was pretty high! This morning, I feel like I was out drinking most of the night!!!! Put yourself in that situation and see how you would want to proceed.

Hope this helps.


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

Wow thanks everybody for the fast responses!!! I'll try to quote everyone's questions and answer them in a row to avoid a slough of multiple posts



nwfarmer said:


> You may want to check the hay market to see what is selling best in your area. You mentioned pick up only because of lack of transportation. Have you got a plan to get the hay out of the field after it is baled? If you get 240 tons of hay off that 60 acres how much machinery can you afford?


Well I just purchased this tractor, 2006 TB100 with only 50 hours on it for $16,500. I will be purchasing a FEL (probably westendorf $8000 with joystick) in the next couple weeks to move the bales. I'm trying to stay on a tighter budget considering the tractor cost as well as the FEL purchase this year. We have someone that bales one of our fields and he has agreed to "show us the ropes" sort-a-speak. As far as hay market... you hit another one of my questions that was going to come later. I honestly was going to advertise on craigslist because I don't even know how or where to sell Any advice on finding out where I might be able to sell? As far as how much machinery can I afford... I was hoping to spend under $10k for the bailer and mower. I found a rotary rake/tedder combo for $2k but I'm waiting to hear back. I was really hoping to spend max 3k on mower and 5k on baler but it's proving difficult to find decent machinery as I'm sure you all already know.



swmnhay said:


> Cutting grass hay I would think about using a disc mower.........Baler with net wrap would be nice also, most buyers like it more and it speeds up baling.


By disc mower do you mean discbine? Sorry... greenhorn here I was looking at discbines because from what I read online alot of guys really like them. I found a Case for around $6k that appeared to be in good shape. Can any baler do the net wrap? Or does it have to be a really new model?



rjmoses said:


> 1. Are you a good mechanic?
> 2. Will the weather in your area allow you to be down at least one day because of a breakdown?
> 3. Can you handle the stress of an equipment failure?
> 4. Do you have a friend or neighbor close by that can step in for you if you have an extended outage?
> ...


I numbered your questions for easy reference 
1. My full time job is telecommunications so the answer to that one is no Haha, but my father and brother are good mechanics so I should have help there. As well as help from some friends around town that bale.

2. The weather in WI can change quite often and it is fairly humid. I would pay close attention to the weather with hopes of a nice window without moisture before I cut.

3. This won't necessarily be a full time endeavor... at least right now it won't so I don't think crop loss would put me in a bad way. Of course when something doesn't go your way it'll be upsetting... especially when your trying to at least break even with all the equipment purchases.

4. I have numerous friends that I'm sure would be able to lend me a hand if I can't get out there and bale.

5. Lol! I should be good in this department

6. Actually if things go well on our property and we can find a market I'd like to. We already have a neighbor that lives literally 200 yards down the road (adjacent property) that has 10 acres that would like us to bale. We need to get a market established first though to see how much we're able to sell because there is alot of field that we could bale on around here.

7. As of right now, tractor and front end loader will be paid for in full. Depending on the price I'd be able to afford equipment without borrowing. The reason why I'm looking at older less expensive equipment is because I don't know how successful this venture will be. If I'm able to make thousands of dollars from this hay I probably wouldn't have a problem spending some extra money. But right now we just don't know how successful this little venture will turn out. I suppose we could always resell the equipment and take a small loss.

8. Yes I should be able to afford to carry things for 2-4 years. This equipment should be all paid off so nothing will be owed.

9. This ties into what I touched base onto earlier. I really need to find a market for this but I don't know how I have friends that have horses that say I should be able to sell round bales for $35 a piece and looking on craigslist it does appear that people are selling theirs for that price.

10. I should have the time to get it done in a crunch.

11. This one kind of touches base on the end of 7 in my response. The only exit plan would be is to try to sell most of the equipment I purchased. I would keep the tractor and front end loader though.

Again I'm gracious for the help! Who knows maybe this thread will help someone in the future that is in the same boat I'm in now...


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

> By disc mower do you mean discbine? Sorry... greenhorn here I was looking at discbines because from what I read online alot of guys really like them. I found a Case for around $6k that appeared to be in good shape. Can any baler do the net wrap? Or does it have to be a really new model?


 I meant a 3pt mounted disc mower.It would be less money than a discbine.More manueverable in small fields.

A baler would have to have the netwrap option on it to use the net wrap.Probably less than 10 yrs old to have that option.

A few places to look to see used eq and their $'s.
Tractor House,Fastline,USA Farmer,Iron Search.


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## nwfarmer (Jun 16, 2009)

[quote name='greenhorn']Wow thanks everybody for the fast responses!!! I'll try to quote everyone's questions and answer them in a row to avoid a slough of multiple posts

Every area is different. In this area we have some fields with mostly grass and others with 50/50 mixture grass alfalfa. We get close to 4 ton total an acre. If you get that and sell for whatever the price is in your area can calculate your gross. We were getting $150 a ton up until this year. The market has been soft here.

I would check the horse people in your area and find out where they get their hay. Maybe even see the quality. Horse people around here do not feed round bales. Most of the round bales went to cow people. This year with a decreased cow population and sugar beets freezing the cows are eating beets in the field and the horse people are buying round bales for $80 a ton. 60 acres bringing in 16 or 17 thousand seems like a lot until you start paying for fuel, string, spray, fertilizer, equipment repairs etc.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

For all grass hay, and hot and humid, I would want a discbine, and a tedder. A tedder/rake combo..... most of the time they do neither job very well, but they do accomplish both. On your haybine, you will need some sort of conditioner rolls in it.... do any of the 3pt versions have that? Many guys act like if the field is less tan 50 acres you NEED a 3pt machine...... Baloney.

The 499 you're looking at is more than likely a 12ft machine, and has that freaking roll-a-reel in it, and if you cut ANY grass that is blown down, it is nearly worthless. In the early 90's they were OK machines, but now..... they'll make you pull out your hair. The 1209 is getting old, and just think of how many years the 1209 has had to cut hay....... Keep looking. For sure you don't want anything less than 9ft, but no more than 12ft, and if you opt for a discbine, 9ft is about your limit, cause they require more power to run. Just cause equipment is newer doesn't mean it'll be without breakdowns, but there's a better cheance of fewer and less expensive breakdowns - don't buy sight unseen and by price only! The baler I know nothing about, cept that a machine has to be built to accept netwrap, and they first came out about 10 years ago.

I think you're going to be doing this as more or less a hobby, and maybe you'll show a small profit after a few years - keep that in consideration. Also - if the machinery is old now, and cheap, it means that nobody really wants it, and that means that resale (your exit strategy) is going to be horrible, and if you need to trade up, you'll wind up paying most of the cost anyway. You need to find out what sort of package for hay sells the best in your area, and that will determine the equipment you need to buy.

Rodney


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> I meant a 3pt mounted disc mower.It would be less money than a discbine.More manueverable in small fields.


Oh okay! Yah I have looked at those but alot of the locals say you definately need a conditioner and the one's I've looked at didn't appear to have one.



nwfarmer said:


> We were getting $150 a ton up until this year.......I would check the horse people......60 acres bringing in 16 or 17 thousand seems like a lot until you start paying for fuel, string, spray, fertilizer, equipment repairs etc.


Wow that's pretty insane getting 150 a ton. Well to this new guy it is I would like to square bale for the horse people but I think I need to start out with something that will be fast and try to build a client base before I begin expanding/creating more work. The cost of operation is what worries me the most which is exactly why I wasn't sure about spending so much money. Especially since I'll be liming, discing the fields, and planting 20 of the 60 shortly.



Rodney R said:


> For all grass hay, and hot and humid, I would want a discbine, and a tedder. A tedder/rake combo..... ............................................


Thanks for being so straight forward Rodney! The tedder and rake combo I was thinking about was this H&S hay machine II http://www.hsmfgco.com/Tedder1Details.cfm?ID=HAYMACHINE II The video they have on it appears to do a decent job but then again, I wouldn't know any better The 3pt mowers I looked at didn't have a conditioner on it and that was my main concern with buying one of those.

Haha "roll-a-reel" So it's sounding like I really need to spring and expand my budget to $15k so I can buy some decent equipment. From what I've read everyone says the discbines are much faster too. Only downside from what I read is that when they breakdown, they are pretty darn expensive to repair. Again I don't have the problem spending the extra money, as long as I'm able to slowly make it back year after year. I don't know what to expect or how much with operation costs... but if I could make around $3k a year I think I'd be satisfied with the more expensive equipment purchases. Is that too ambitious?

Your correct on the hobby aspect but depending on how things work out I might try to expand and go with it. Ever since I did some work with my cousins tractor I can't get it out of my head. It really was alot of fun but who knows... if it's something I'm really going to be depending on... I suppose I could see how I might hate it. My friend with the large farm kind of echoed the same thing regarding the older equipment being difficult to sell... What do you recommend for finding the package for hay that sells best in my area? Should I start calling dairy/beef farmers and ask them?


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## rob_cook2001 (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't know about your area but it can't be much different then here in the states. There is a beef market, Dairy market, and horse people. Is craigslist a big thing over there? If so look there. Also check any local agricultural publication. Even check local newspapers.
Around here, if i was only going to do 60 acres, for more or less a hobby I would do small bales. But that depends on your market. Its not worth putting up something you cant sell lol
Robert


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

rob_cook2001 said:


> I don't know about your area but it can't be much different then here in the states. There is a beef market, Dairy market, and horse people. Is craigslist a big thing over there? If so look there. Also check any local agricultural publication. Even check local newspapers.
> Around here, if i was only going to do 60 acres, for more or less a hobby I would do small bales. But that depends on your market. Its not worth putting up something you cant sell lol
> Robert


I hear ya rob So I think I should be more concentrated on a market than buying machinery... but then again... I can't get too caught up if I don't have a product. The guy who is going to show us the ropes agreed that we can use his equipment for this year. We'll just split the hay and I'm thinking that's going to be the best option right now. Just to give us time to find someone to sell it to rather than jumping in too fast completely blind.

I would love to do small bales because we would be able to make more money on it but I can't do that to my family I'm actually in Iraq right now so my father will be doing most of the work this year... square baling those fields would be too much work for him especially when alot of it might be by himself.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

When you get back you might "keep your eyes open" & find some bargains on equipment. I know prices on used stuff around here are really cheap & not much is moving. I bought my Kuhn cutter (of course I knew nothing about it but the discs were "in sync" and the gearbox turned ok). I filled up the gearbox & bar, had to get one blade bolt as one was missing & bought a new set of blades & it cuts great. Paid 300 for the cutter; there were 3 of them at the sale & the highest went for 550. I may look at a 100 hp Massey Ferguson tractor nearby; it's been for sale for a coupla weeks; supposed to be ok except for the air conditioner compressor; guy's asking 6500 & it hasn't sold yet. Bigger than I want really but I've never seen a tractor with a/c cab in recent years for less than bout 10k.

Lew


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

The easiest way to find out what package sells the best in your area would be to talk to somebody that does a lot of hay in the area. Are there any hay auctions around? go to one and see what kind of bales are there..... I see a few loads (at most) @ the hay sales here, and they bring a LOT less than almost anything else.... But the hay market is pretty local....

So far as the hobby part goes...... If you just want to put some of the money towards the payback on equipment each year - I would think you'd be able to do that - Just know it's going to be a few years that you'll have to carry the money in the equipment. After you do this a few years, you may want to update something - it's a horrible cycle - it may take a handful of years before you can actually put money in your pocket.

Rodney


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

Good advice lewbest... Problem up by us is there isn't a whole heck of alot for sale







Nearest Walmart is 45 to an hour a way but I suppose that might be normal. Just hafta put my driving boots on and check everything out







I was looking at tractors with cabs as well but... I really wanted something with low hours. I thought I got a good deal with what I bought but time will tell

Seems to be the reoccuring theme from what everyone is saying Rodney R about the 3-4 years before you might be able to put something away. I'm thinking holding off a year before buying any equipment as well as teaming up with the local guy and using his equipment this year might be a smart move then. Just so we can try to move some bales and then maybe next year buy some gear after we build a some kind of customer base and go from there.


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

greenhorn said:


> Good advice lewbest... Problem up by us is there isn't a whole heck of alot for sale
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I jumped off the deep end today; just couldn't resist a Ford 9600 w/cab & air (air don't work but I know enough about automotive refrigeration to fix it myself); everything else seems fine. Found it on craigslist about 125 miles away; bought it for WAY less than that Massey including delivery. Way bigger than I need but according to the Nebraska test it uses only about twice the fuel my 4000 does. As you said, "we'll see."

Lew


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

Hey congrats lew!!!







I hope she works out for ya!

I was hoping you guys could maybe elaborate a little bit on the profits aspect. Many have stated not to expect profits for 3-4 years. Is this due to inexperience and I'll be running my tractor alot? So fuel, netwrap/twine, repairs, etc.? Or is it because I might not find any buyers?

I just figured if I had a product and I'm able to push it... I'd make some money thats all. I'm sure it's not as easy as what I just stated lol but I think you guys understand what I'm saying









Thanks again everyone!


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## tw30 (Apr 4, 2010)

tractorhouse.com has alot of good deals and they ship to all 49 states . im guessing shipping on a baler wpould be below 1000$ they told me they could ship me a 13,800 lb tractor 1000 miles for 1700$ . i know a small sqaure or round baler weighs less


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## lewbest (Dec 9, 2009)

I've never dealt with Tractorhouse so can't comment on them. My only "thing" would be I'd hate to spend that kind of money on something "sight unseen." Now if it was close enough to go look at......

Lew


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## Haymike56 (May 3, 2010)

You have to realy watch what you buy from pictures. I bought a 316 NH baler on Ebay from a guy in SW Ohio and the pictures showed it looked good and his discription said it was original paint and the baler was ready for the field. When i got there to pick it up it was obvious there was touch up paint done. The plunger was in bad shape and had to be rebuilt. after seeing more of this guys stuff on Ebay i realised that he always wets the equipment down to make the paint look better. I feel it is better to go look at the equipment prior to bidding.


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## tw30 (Apr 4, 2010)

tractorhouse is a online network of dealerships so if somthing is broken you should be able to discuss the problems . buy as is from a dealer







.Cant travel 1000 miles to look at equip


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## greenhorn (May 9, 2010)

I actually bought my tractor from tractorhouse.com and well.... obviously I'm not there to enjoy it yet But I will be in the next few weeks when I go on leave!







I bought it from a dealer out of PA and we negotiated shipping at $250 to northern WI so I was pretty happy. I talked with my father though and he said the tractors great. He said I shouldn't complain at all... Quite the upgrade from the ole Farmall M







But when the thing only had 52 hours on it I think you can always expect pretty good results but who knows... maybe there's something majorly wrong with it but only time will tell and I'm praying for the best

I'm holding off on purchasing a baler and cutter this year for those reasons. I need to find out what I'm looking for and just how well this is going to turn out. I'm sure I'll have questions in the future about what to check for when purchasing a cutter or round baler.


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## rank (Apr 15, 2009)

greenhorn said:


> Well my username says it all I'm just starting out and I'm trying to get the basics knocked out. We have approximately 60 acres that used to get baled for free for numerous years now. We are going to begin baling ourselves and trying to sell.


you must be bored.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You had asked why it would take several years for money to be put in your pocket..... I think it goes something like this - With any luck you'll be making money on the hay you make, but I think it'll take several years till you pay oiff the machinery, and that doesn't include breakdowns, and 'lost' hay because of that. Each geographical area has it's own learning curve, and even though you get better at things, they are never mastered.

Rodney


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## MakingHay2011 (Jun 30, 2011)

So hows the hay operation going?


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