# Hayliner S68 Banana Bale trouble



## mko219 (Jul 31, 2014)

So i bought a baler from my neighbor last year. NH S68. Pretty good condition, needed a needle. I put a needle on it, and started to use it. I had tons of little problems with the knotter from sitting, the blade on the plunger needed sharpening, PTO shaft, etc,

He said it sat for a couple years in his barn, but baled perfectly before.

Now the one problem i CANNOT figure out is the banana bale problem. Its consistantly on the far side, left if i'm facing it from the rear.

Things i've done


Tension on that side, higher and lower
This baler has 6 teeth, tried moving them closer so it pushes more to the far side
Cleaned bale chamber
Switched the string from one side to the other(one seems a little easier to pull through the tensioner)
Put a grinder to the tensioner to rough it up
Feed it heavy windrows
Feed it on either side, and center
Feed it small windrows

I'm clueless, as are the guys i know that make hay.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

The back wall where the feeder is can be moved inward. I had to move mine in to properly bale Bermuda. I have a NH 273.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

I assume from your post that the problem is not enough hay on the left side of the bale as it exits the baler and the bale bellies out in the middle of the right side.

If so, you have identified the usual solution and that is to move the packer teeth more to the left to deliver the charge of hay they are carrying further to the left side of the chamber.

Can the teeth be moved further left?

Another possible cause of banana shape is hay dog failure on the one side.

Check that all hay dogs are not frozen with rust and dirt and that all hay dog springs are in good condition, not weak or broken. Long time since I saw a super 68 but most balers have 3 hay dogs on top of the bale case and three on the bottom just into the bale case or chute immediately outside the bale chamber.

If you look at the face of the plunger you will see little slots in the top edge and bottom edge for the hay dogs to run in. They are pushed out of the bale case against the spring load by the slice or biscuit of hay being compressed into the bale case by the plunger. They bounce back into the bale case after the passage of the plunger to hold the newly compressed slice in the bale case.

A malfunctioning hay dog allows spring back of the hay just compressed by the plunger which uses up space in the chamber preventing the incoming charge of hay moving all the way left. May not manifest as a banana bale unless the two (Upper and lower ) hay dogs on the one side fail.

Hope that helps.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Yeah like Coondle said check the dogs, my upper ones were packed with dirt and trash and not functioning properly. I had forgotten about them.


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## mko219 (Jul 31, 2014)

I think i'm talking about the same thing here, but this baler is OLD.

To be clear they are fingers about 3 inches or so long that are on springs and move out of the way when the plunger comes in...

I have 2 on the top that are spring loaded, i have not seen the lower ones, which might be a problem.

I found them on the NH website, looks like there is 3


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Hay dog spring, hay dog and hinge or clevis pin are parts 4,5,and 6 respectively in the parts diagram.

One of the slots, for the hay dog, in the plunger can be seen on the bottom of the plunger in the drawing between the two sets of pointy teeth.

Look across the top of the bale case under the knotter for the hay dogs. OR: empty the bale case of hay and crawl under the bale case, look up at the very start of the bale case and across the bottom of the case you should see 3 hay dogs, one in the left and one in the right side of the bale case itself with third in the centre bottom rail of the bale case. Usually there is a matching set in the top of the bale case that should be visible by peering up the gap between the outer bale case and the centre rail. But like I said long time since I saw a 68 up close.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I believe there are two haydogs on top and one in the center on the bottom. Be sure they are free and the springs are not broke.

Worn feeder tines will also give you the problem since they will not reach far enough down to carry enough material to the left side. Take them, the aluminum ones, off and go to your dealer and see how much is worn off the bottom. Check that the last set of steel tines has the spring still attached.

Your baler does not have an adjustable feeder back which could be a great help if every thing else checks out. The 270 and 271 used a bolt in panel which could work on the 68 but will not be easy to find. I have often thought if I ran into a situation where I could just not get enough material into the left side I would bolt a 2 x 12 against the back wall. This would cause the feeder tines to grab more material to feed the left side. The 270 panel formed more of a wedge shape. On the right side it was tight against the back and on the left side there was a jog that caused the panel to protrude into the feeder area a couple of inches.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

If non functional hay dogs contribute to banana shaped bales then why do some baler models only have 3 hay dogs while other models have 6 hay dogs? Granted most hay balers with 6 hay dogs are higher capacity type balers.The balers with 3 hay dogs if adjusted and fed hay correctly will make a sq bale.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mko219 said:


> Now the one problem i CANNOT figure out is the banana bale problem. Its consistantly on the far side, left if i'm facing it from the rear.
> 
> Things i've done
> 
> ...


IMHO altering tension on bale case springs on rear of baler to help stop banana shaped is a waste of time because tension bar on baler presses on center of forming bales not on sides of forming bales.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Tx Jim said:


> If non functional hay dogs contribute to banana shaped bales then why do some baler models only have 3 hay dogs while other models have 6 hay dogs? Granted most hay balers with 6 hay dogs are higher capacity type balers.The balers with 3 hay dogs if adjusted and fed hay correctly will make a sq bale.


It is the lack of hay dogs that contribute to misshaped bales when one is not working. When the plunger pushes the hay back into the chamber the dogs are supposed to hold it there. If the dogs are not functioning the hay will push forward toward the incoming charge of hay from the feeder either blocking the infeed or cause the misplacement of the charge.

The 68 balers were designed in the 50's, still in the infancy of square baler design, and for the most part worked very well for the conditions of the time. The crops the yields and the horsepower to run the machines we see today were just a dream at that time and as all things progress so has baler design.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

The 68 has 3 spring loaded hay dogs as mentioned, 2 in the top and one in the bottom. My 68 also has 4 vertical wedges in the bale chamber side, 2 per side. There is also a small cast iron wedge on the bottom and top of the bale chamber.

If you're getting banana shaped bales, IMHO, no amount of tension on the bale springs will fix it. More hay needs to flow into the far side of the bale chamber. To remedy this, move the feeder tines to the right - not left as you stand behind the baler. This is counter intuitive, but per the manual and works!

The aluminum feeder tines wear down over time and if they aren't 13ish inches long, you might need to replace them.

The steel tines on the end of the feeder bar should be spring loaded. If that spring is missing, that could be your trouble.

Another cause of banana bales is the knife clearance on the plunger to the stationary knife. It needs to be set to around 1/32 inch. If there is a gap and the knife is dull, it will pull hay into the knife side of the baler and aggravate the banana bale problem.

Lastly, I found that my 68 is at it's best at full 540 rpm PTO speed. More flakes per bale, less flakes to cut with each stroke, consistent bale length - it's all much better once I figured that out. However, make sure your wooden slides are in good shape if you run it that hard. I had to replace mine.

The 68 is a fine old baler and drop dead simple design.

Good luck,
Bill


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mike10 said:


> It is the lack of hay dogs that contribute to misshaped bales when one is not working. When the plunger pushes the hay back into the chamber the dogs are supposed to hold it there. If the dogs are not functioning the hay will push forward toward the incoming charge of hay from the feeder either blocking the infeed or cause the misplacement of the charge.
> 
> The 68 balers were designed in the 50's, still in the infancy of square baler design, and for the most part worked very well for the conditions of the time. The crops the yields and the horsepower to run the machines we see today were just a dream at that time and as all things progress so has baler design.


My point is a baler with 3 hay dogs is similar to a hay baler with 6 hay dogs with 3 of the hay dogs that are non functional. A JD 336 along with other JD models only has 3 hay dogs and will make a sq bale if adjusted & fed correctly. One of the older JD model with 3 hay dogs that will make a brick of a bale is a 214. To me the largest advancement in newer model sq balers is the in-line compared to conventional sq balers.

I agree that the fewer number of hay dogs a baler has the more important a non functioning dog becomes as to bale shape & tying consistency.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Tx Jim said:


> My point is a baler with 3 hay dogs is similar to a hay baler with 6 hay dogs with 3 of the hay dogs that are non functional. A JD 336 along with other JD models only has 3 hay dogs and will make a sq bale if adjusted & fed correctly. One of the older JD model with 3 hay dogs that will make a brick of a bale is a 214. To me the largest advancement in newer model sq balers is the in-line compared to conventional sq balers.
> 
> I agree that the fewer number of hay dogs a baler has the more important a non functioning dog becomes as to bale shape & tying consistency.


Only if the non-functioning three are perfectly placed.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Agree with leeave96 regarding moving them either direction. If one way doesn't work, try the other. I know my 315 fingers were like that under some conditions.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

A banana bale is the result of more hay under one twine than the other, to have an even bale, there must be an equal thickness of hay that is compressed under the left twine and right twine in the finished bale. Unequal thickness under one string when compared to the other means that the hay under one twine is softer and the bale bends toward that side and bellies out in the centre on the side with more hay under the twine.

Tx jim, please read the detail in the posts, I qualified my first post in this topic with:

"Long time since I saw a super 68 but most balers have 3 hay dogs on top of the bale case and three on the bottom just into the bale case or chute immediately outside the bale chamber."

I outlined the mechanics of why a particular set of hay dog failure would effect bale shape:

"A malfunctioning hay dog allows spring back of the hay just compressed by the plunger which uses up space in the chamber preventing the incoming charge of hay moving all the way left. May not manifest as a banana bale unless the two (Upper and lower ) hay dogs on the one side fail."

Notwithstanding the NH 68 only having a total of 3 hay dogs which Mike 10 clarified and I thank him for that, but you will see that they are arranged symmetrically on the vertical axis of the bale case:

One in the centre bottom and two in the top of the bale case, one each side of the centre line.

Consider the delivery of hay to the bale chamber.

If there is something disturbing the even delivery of hay to the chamber then a banana bale may well result. As leeave96 says a dull knife can well disturb the evenness of the hay in the chamber as it is compressed.

The positioning of the packer tines/fingers affects the evenness of the hay delivered to the bale chamber too.

A spring back of hay from the right side of the bale case would mean more hay transferred to the left side of the bale chamber i.e. the hay that has sprung back is carried over to the left side along with the standard amount of hay delivered by the tines i.e. the left twine would be overpacked and the right twine underpacked.

The converse also applies.

Hay that has sprung back on the left side blocks some of the hay being carried in by the packer tines and leaves slightly more hay under the right twine.

To get a banana bale it need only be a small difference in the thickness of hay compressed in each flake or slice.

Checking hay dogs is good machine maintenance whether in a particular case they are or are not the cause of banana bales. So why would you not do that?

No different to replacing the needle protection latch (NPL) spring periodically. Discovering failure of that spring by having the needle protection latch fail and break the needles is far more expensive than replacing the spring a few times without it being broken.

Tx Jim, please tell me what the shape of a bale would be if only 2 hay dogs, both on the left side of the bale case failed in a 6 bale dog baler?

I note your JD makes a square bale if adjusted and fed properly. What happens if it is not adjusted properly?

NH, Freeman, Jones, Bamford, Claas, Welger, Massey and every other square baler makes square bales if adjusted and fed properly!


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

New feeder tines on a 68 are 13 3/4" long from top to tip.

I think another reason manufactures went to more hay dogs is because of tieing issues. In crops like straw and springy crops the material can push the number two twine away from the needle and the twine finger will miss it. Having more hay dogs keeps more of the material from interfering with the twine.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Coondle said:


> Tx Jim, please tell me what the shape of a bale would be if only 2 hay dogs, both on the left side of the bale case failed in a 6 bale dog baler?
> 
> I note your JD makes a square bale if adjusted and fed properly. What happens if it is not adjusted properly?


I can't properly answer your question as I've never really kept up with statistics on malfunctioning hay dogs but I been out on sq balers that had tying problems due to malfunctioning hay dogs that the bales that were tied correctly were square not banana shaped but that's not what you wanted to hear. I whole heartily agree that checking hay dog & PH stop operation is very good sq baler preventive maintenance. IMHO that's the reason these forums are called "discussion forums"!.

Jim


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

mike10 said:


> New feeder tines on a 68 are 13 3/4" long from top to tip.
> 
> I think another reason manufactures went to more hay dogs is because of tieing issues.


I agree to aid tying especially in higher capacity balers taking in a bigger windrow.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Tx Jim said:


> My point is a baler with 3 hay dogs is similar to a hay baler with 6 hay dogs with 3 of the hay dogs that are non functional.


Only if the 3 hay dogs that fail fail symmetrically. If the failure is asymmetric then the 6 dog baler is not similar to a fully functioning 3 dog baler.

And I agree with this statement of yours in regard to shape and tying :



Tx Jim said:


> I agree that the fewer number of hay dogs a baler has the more important a non functioning dog becomes as to bale shape & tying consistency.


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## Greg Christensen (Jul 7, 2015)

Try moving your feeder tines to the right, you'll be delivering a larger charge of hay to the chamber. The idea is to stuff the chamber full, not just more to one side. Another thing to check is the bale wedges on the inside of the bale chamber. These are just stamped steel wedges that are oriented with the flat side to the back of the baler. If I recall correctly there should be 4 of them. These also prevent the hay from springing back towards the plunger. I've always had better luck running a full windrow, my S68 is happier when it's full. I've been running one for 15 years now. Mine makes a bale that is only 1 inch different side to side.


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

I (mostly) solved this very same problem on my s68 Saturday morning.

Here's the important parts to check/replace:

1. Hay Dog Springs - there are two hay dogs on top, one in the center on the bottom. I had a broken spring on the top knife side, and it was pretty easy to replace. Part # 86625984

2. Stops (side hay stops) - There are four - two were missing from my baler, the two that were left nearly rusted through. Part # 32124 - new part #86626431

3. Wood Blocks (Plunger Slides) - These wear out eventually. Expensive to buy from NH but fairly easy to make if you're handy. I measured mine when I had it apart so I can make new ones myself. They look like they are made from white oak. Part # 82847675

4. Bottom stop - These round over on the corners, and I still need to replace mine. This is a critical part and primary banana-bale culprit because it holds back the hay on the knife side. Part #86900878

Here's what to adjust:

1. Make sure the knife is sharp. Very sharp. Shaving sharp.

2. Knife/Anvil gap - 1/8" at most, no less than 1/16". Adjust gap using the plunger rails on the side opposite the knife.

3. Square up the plunger - adjust the wood slides so the knife and anvil are parallel. Adjust the wood slides to minimize the amount of rock in the plunger front to back too.

4. Feeder tines - The timing is important, if they pull up out of the chamber too soon, they don't push enough hay in, too late and the plunger will crash into them.

5. Feeder tine positioning - Move the center feeder tines AWAY from the bale chamber, and the ones closest to the chamber CLOSER to the chamber. Go all the way to the end of the bar if you need to. This will help balance the hay going into the chamber by pushing more in while preventing too much hay from stopping in front of the knife.

6. Twine tension plates - there will likely be a groove worn into them. Weld them up and grind flat. You want them smooth, not rough - tension is supplied by the spring nut in the plates, you don't want the twine to abrade.

7. Check the ceramic twine guides for grooves - you can turn them if they are badly grooved.

8. Needle Guard - the twine rubs on the bottom of the needle guard inside tube and the plate under it (#1 on functional group 028). Weld up and grind out smooth any grooves worn into the needle guard.

Operational tips:

1. Run it at 540 rpm. It will work fine at slower PTO speed, but the bales will form better at the rated operational speed.

2. Bale tension - as tight as you can reasonably go. Loose bales are more prone to bad formation. I try to make bales between 40 and 50 lbs, most end up being 40-45 lbs in straight grass hay.

3. Windrows need to be a consistent as possible. Heavy is OK, as long as they are consistent, but keep your ground speed slow to avoid overfeeding. Too much hay too fast can result in breaking the feeder tines.

4. You want a steady flow of hay into the pickup, and this is why I've grown to HATE my 256 Rope-A-Bar rake. I rebuilt the feeder tine bar assembly on the s68 last summer, so it's tight and is better able to handle the thick stuff. I still cringe every time the old s68 pulls in a long rope of hay in a heavy windrow.

Once you get it dialed in and everything set up the way it should be, it's really not a bad baler.


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## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Good looking bale Swingoak


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

broadriverhay said:


> Good looking bale Swingoak


Thanks!


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

I should add one thing about twine tension - After I restored the tensioning plates to like-new condition, I gradually increased the tension until the knotters started missing ties and wrapping up on the billhooks, then backed the tension adjustment nut off about 1-1/2 or maybe 2 turns. That was last season, and it's been perfect ever since. The only time it misses a tie is when the splice between balls gets hung up somewhere, or a loop wraps around something in the twine box (like the scissors I keep in there). It seems it's just my luck that the splice knot always ends up precisely under the billhook or similarly inappropriate location in the knotters. This was with 9000 sisal twine.


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## mko219 (Jul 31, 2014)

Alright so after some looking it was missing the bottom dog. I replaced it, and the hay was too wet to try last night. Trying again tonight I hope.

The next part is that i took out all the stops and such when i took the plunger out. I'm going to put all those back in, i left them out because they needed some love.

I do appreciate everybody's input, very much

Thanks


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