# Sweet Clover?



## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

How do,

I'm from the UK, I have an experiment going growing forage crops for bees and grass eating stock. 
I have planted Sainfoin in a stand alone field and a field with a mix in it. 
The mix has (had) phacelia in it at 40% then white and red clover, alsike clover, sweet clover and Timothy and Fescue grass. Does anyone have any advice regarding harvesting this kind of mix? The thing that is unknown in the UK is really the sweet clover, when is it best (plant growth stage as I'm in a different climate to you) to harvest and how long to wilt it for, what moisture to aim for. Just any advice would be great.

Does anyone grow sainfoin, and do they combine it?

As I said any help would be blooming great as its not done over here much. We're just about to cut our meadow and orchard hay now, if the weather would play ball!

Best Regards
Mark Rogers


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## mulberrygrovefamilyfarm (Feb 11, 2009)

Looks like you have stumped everyone...


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## Jared M (Jun 8, 2009)

I had never even heard of sainfoin until i read the May issue of Hay and Forage Grower but they said it was best for basic soils meaning western US so i didnt pay much attention to it being in Ohio so i can't answer on that. I have never grown sweet clover but we did have some pop up on a dirt pile and i was asking my prof about it and he said it is actually pretty bitter to animals and they dont like it as well. If its anything like what we had pop up and the stems are large diameter i think it could be pretty tough to dry down and you would want it down under 18% moisture to bale without preservative if you were here but if it was the only thing not completely dry sometimes the moisture will disperse to dry parts of the bale and you can get away with it. I would cut just before the most abundant plants in the field were about to bloom so you would get good quality and yield from the largest part. I am no expert, i am still learning but that is what i would do.
Jared


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## nwfarmer (Jun 16, 2009)

We have yellow clover pop up in our hay fields. I try to pull it or warn horse hay buyers of the hay it is in. I have heard that it is hard on pregnant mares and they can lose their foals. I don't know about any other clovers.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Never heard of causing a mare to abort. I do know it was the early source of Coumadin, a blood thinner.

When sweet clover hay has a little mold, the coumadin forms. Livestock who eat the hay will bleed at for the smallest scratch. Stories of livestock bleeding to death were common 50 years ago.

I did not like to bale it as it had an unpleasant smell. Not bad just unpleasant. Stock do not like it's bitter taste. It is mostly stems, before cutting.

The only reason we cut it for hay was to get it to put out multiple stems. At that it had to be cut high or you got below the growth point.

It is a good source of nitrogen, puts down a nice fairly deep tap root, and here is one of the very few clovers that works every try.

It reseed's it's self at the drop of a hat and becomes a weed. If or when I plant Eastern Gammagrass I would plant / sling it into hubam clover in the middles.

I saw lots of it in the right of way in Illinois & Wisconsin whe we drove through there one summer.

There is also a Bi Annual sweet clover.


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## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks for replies so far,

Does seem to have stumped folks a bit. Sorry wasn't my intention.

The main reason for planting the mix was for nectar and pollen forage for bees. The Idea is that once you've had a crop of honey (two so far this spring/ summer) then I'd cut it and bale it for hay. The majority of the crop is grass with white, red and alsike clover in the second year. 
In the UK this would be a recognised grass mix for an organic farm. The phacelia and sweet clover were added mainly for the high bee value. 
The fertility of the soil is now amazing, we are on weak soils and I would estimate that the effect of the nitrogen fix would be comparable to 180kg/acre of nitrogen applied from the bag. 
You seem to have a big problem with moulds and horse maladies, we don't get the same degree of trouble with this, and if we do it would be more likely in silage with cows and sheep having the trouble. 
So why have I read quite a bit about sweet clover from the USA and Canada then? what do people plant it for?

Regards From Dorset
Mark


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

If the goal was to harvest this mix as a forage then I would agree with Jared M and cut at late vegetative to early reproductive stages (less than 10% bloom). But that doesn't seem to be your goal. You're basically wondering what the value of this clover-grass mix and sainfoin field would be as really mature hay.

Basically the longer you wait to harvest the hay the higher in fiber and lower in protein the plant will be. If the fields start to lodge before you get your honey, you'll need to harvest the fields if you want to have any value of left in the hay and not have any molding in the hay. When you do cut it make your swaths (what comes out the back of the mower) as wide as you can. Clovers take a long time to dry, but wide swaths are an easy way to speed up the process.

Question for Hay Wilson in TX: When and where did you go through Wisconsin and see a bunch of clover? I grew up in the Cloverbelt in the northern part of the state, but nowadays clover acres are quite small and sainfoin is not recommended at all.


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## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

It's interesting that you say sainfoin has gone out of favour. The same has happened in the UK.

I found out about the stuff on a Canadian web page (think it was a univeristy/ or federal site) we struggled to get good seed because it had not been grown for so long. People are interested in it as a forage crop now though locally and out of the fields planted the best plot so far has been the sainfoin. It covers the ground well, winter grazes, puts on good growth and established fast, needs very little inputs and cuts twice in a year and can be grazed twice.

For an organic system it looks like a goer to me and I'll be trialling it further, I want to combine it for the seed and bale the swath as threshed hay, we'll see what happens and I'll let you know.


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

Some folks out in Montana swear by Sainfoin. If you're able to establish it easily without weed pressure and other issues then go for it. The establishment is the main issue in many areas. Forage quality is very good, but the tonnage will be less than many other legumes. As far as the honey goes your bees will be collecting from a bunch of other flowers as well. Unless you have the amount of land that the citrus growers in Florida and California have the content of your honey won't be pure clover pollen. Good Luck.


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## 3w farms (May 25, 2009)

you talk of a nitrogen fixture of 180kg or 396lbs/ acre you not talking actual lbs of nitrogen are you.


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## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

No. the overall effect of the nitrogen usage, if we spread N on our fields we loose a lot due to our chalky and easily drained soils. 
So what I was saying is that I'd have to put that much N on to make the field look the same way.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Sweet clover can be pretty nasty stuff if it gets too ripe. If planted on purpose the main usage is for plow down. Yes, not good for horse buyers and some problems making silage out of it also.


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## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

Originally when the phacelia was present in the mix (we thought it would come back from seed) the field was intended as a green manure mix with the main emphasis on honey production. The grass has taken over a bit this year and I was wondering if it would be worth cutting for fodder but I'm getting the picture that it isn't.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

If you are going to cut it make sure to do it early. Later in the season the whole stem drys down and the bales will look like woody debris.


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## UpNorth (Jun 15, 2009)

I agree with hayray. The hay value is very small unless you want to put in a compost pile or maybe use it as mulch.


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## markofmuckleford (Jun 30, 2009)

So taking on board what you're all saying, what is the regrowth habit of the plant? 
If I cut it earlier in the year (say feb) and let it come up to flower for may june for my bees, then cut it back and mulch it in and then cut the regrowth later for hay, like aug sept. Any thoughts?


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