# 1970's Tractor's vs post 2000's Tractors



## jrwhit04 (Jun 28, 2010)

My family's beef cattle and hay farm currently has 5 tractors on it, 4 of them are 1972-1978 vintage IH and one is a 2004 Case IH. As we started up hay season again this weekend I got "burned" once again by our baling tractor, a 986. Despite new batteries and alternator in the last year, it won't start. Actually, it started fine after sitting all winter, which was a shock, and started fine yesterday afternoon when we started baling. I decided to run in the house to get a drink 1/2 way done and it wouldn't start back up. So, I shuffled tractors and used the 2004 CaseIH JX95 to finish baling. So I am sure I will figure out what trivial issue is wrong with the 986 later today, but this is a pattern that is starting to drive me nuts. We start a job with an old tractor, something happens mid stream and we end up finishing it with the only tractor on the farm that is less than 35 years old.

My grandfather was and is of the school of thought that "they don't make'm like they used to" (a 95 year old retired army colonel), and I can see that and I do appreciate how much iron is in these old tractors, and how realitively simple they are to work on, specifically that everything is mechanical instead of electrical. My issue is that we are constantly running into these piddly issues with these tractors because of their age. Wiring harness issues, fuel deilvery issues, just random issues that occur after 35+ years of putting up hay and doing general farm work.

So, since I have limited experience with tractors that are less than 35 years old, I am looking for peoples opinions on where we go from here. It is obvious that we are going to have to invest money, do we invest money "overhauling" our current fleet of tractors or do we trade them in and attempt to replace them with some newer machines? In case you can't tell, I am in favor of trading them in probably because I am the mechanic in the family and am tired of fixing this junk!

Thanks in advanced.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Hows your air filter? I run all mid to late 70's green tractors. Usually when mine have trouble restarting hot its time to change the air cleaner or at least blow it out. But generally if I'm running into the house for a drink of water I leave it running as the fan gives me more cooling then the coolant flow stopping and fan shutting off. If I've been working them hard they get some cool down laps about 20 minutes worth. Kinda like putting your horse away wet. You wouldn't do it. Some day when the gremlins start getting after the wiring you'll be glad to have those old ones sitting around as they will at least start somehow some way and get the hay in before it rains. Around here even the BTOs keep a few pieces of old iron around for that reason.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Nothing wrong with the older ones, you have to maintain both new and old. As long as the older ones are still suited to your equipment I'd just keep maintaining them. You could overhaul a 986, replace the TA, do tranny work, put new tires, paint and cab interior for a lot less than buying a new comparable tractor.

In 35 years will the new tractor still be viable with all of its computers and electronics??


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## jrwhit04 (Jun 28, 2010)

Hillside hay, thanks for the advice, I will check the air filter when I get home, and yes.........I actually had the thought not to turn it off when I was running in the house but I didn't listen to my instinct!

barnrope...........great point about the price, definitely advantageous to keep the old ones from that standpoint. And your comment about how will the current tractors fair in 35 years gets at exactally what I was wondering about. These old mechanical tractors sure are easier to trouble shoot and diagnose.

Thanks for the response, much appreciated.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

We always observed a few differences. For example, our JD 4440 and 4450 would outwork the JD7810 any day of the week without breaking a sweat. The 4440 and 4450 were both turned up to around 160hp, so they did have about a 10-15 hp advantage. I think that new tractors, in terms of power, rely on a "power bulge" when under load, and it just doesn't give the same performance. Example: we had a pair of 25ft 3 point mounted field cultivators. They worked great for our bottom ground, as you could set the 3 pt. draft to raise up if it hit wet spots. Used the 4440 and 4450 on those for years, pulled easy, no big deal. After a few tractor trades, we had the 4450 and the 7810 on the cultivators, the 7810 could not keep up, it worked that tractor to death! We ended up trading up to a bigger cultivator that we pulled with a JD 4960. New cabs are more comfortable, but not sure that they were all that more productive, especially considering the price difference.

Anything that went wrong on the 7810 (not much to be honest), had to go to the shop because it was computer related. Our older tractors never went to the shop unless they had to be split. All repairs done on farm and saved a fortune.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

In addition to the repair factors already mentioned, it also comes down to the total number of tractors. If you update your fleet of five to newer, will you still have five or fewer? Obviously updating all of them would cost serious money. And then if you end up with just a few newer ones, will you regret having to constantly be hitching and unhitching? Some people would probably rather have a bunch of older tractors and have a tractor for every imement while others would rather a few comfortable new ones and be glad to unhook and unhook. Do you know which you are?


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I probably will not be around in another 35 years, but my feeling is there will be few 2014 model tractors still operating at that time. The tractors are too dependent on electronics. We are starting to see it in the early 2000's model tractors with corrosion being a big problem, especially tractors without cabs. The early 2000's model tractors do not have anywhere near the wiring and electrical components of the new tractors. The tier 4 tractors are totally dependent on the electronic moduals in order to start and run and in many cases even move.

The question is, will your vintage tractors be around in another 35 years also. Many of the parts for some of these tractors are no longer being produced and there are only so many junked tractor with good parts.

From a mechanical standpoint, I think we were better off with 70's technology then the present but there are other considerations to take into account such as comfort and ease of use.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

The 400 series IH engines are bullet proof, if they crank, they will start, no matter how hot or cold(at least down to20). If will not start when hot, you need a fuel pump.


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## jrwhit04 (Jun 28, 2010)

haybaler101.............. excellent advice, and I was afraid of that possibility as well. This particular engine has been overhauled once, about 200 hours ago, but it's the factory fuel pump.

8350HiTech........... I would personally rather hook and unhook, with in reason of course. I would like the ability to have a back up tractor for each task though.

Thus far, considering everything, I am thinking that the best solution is to drop some money into overhauling/updating these tractors, and looking at the possibility of aquiring 1 newer machine to lighten the load on our 2004 JX95. I think we should overhual/update these tractors now becuase as it was pointed out, there is a limited supply of replacement parts in some cases. I think our current issue is we have just basically fixed broken stuff on these tractors for 35+ years and little else and are still relying on them daily. If we are going to rely on them like we are, they needing some wiring/fuel system overhaul.

Thanks again for the answers, your opinions are much appreciated.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

What about some nice used 90s tractors?


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

To me it all depends on how much you use the tractor. New tractors sure are a lot nicer to run and can also be easier on the body. But they can cost money. Older tractors are cheaper to buy. Can run and work nice, Or can be like is happening to you. Little things keep going wrong. Usually nothing serious but still annoying. Now it can cost a lot of money if your fixing a wire to start the tractor when you should be baling.

Something else to think about. Some of these new tractors are very easy on fuel. If you use the tractor a lot you can just about make the payments on fuel savings. With my current tractor I have a payment of $5400/year and iam saving at least $4500 per year on fuel compared to running my old case tractor doing the same work. Plus I don't have all those little things to keep fixing like you currently have.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

jrwhit04 said:


> Thus far, considering everything, I am thinking that the best solution is to drop some money into overhauling/updating these tractors, and looking at the possibility of aquiring 1 newer machine to lighten the load on our 2004 JX95. I think we should overhual/update these tractors now becuase as it was pointed out, there is a limited supply of replacement parts in some cases. I think our current issue is we have just basically fixed broken stuff on these tractors for 35+ years and little else and are still relying on them daily. If we are going to rely on them like we are, they needing some wiring/fuel system overhaul.


I think you have answered your own question. Probably what I would do as well. Look at those old four with a critical eye - what is wrong with it, what will it take to put it into "dependable service" condition, and go from there. If there is one that is worse than the others, that might be the one to sell or trade on a newer model.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I wish I could find an older tractor that was comfortable, with good visibility.
NH 8670 and Deere xx10 series seems to be the earliest tractors with a more spacious cab and some modern amenities, but you're still going to pay 40k for one. 
I like IH 88 series with cabs, but they get big money because they're starting to become "collectors" tractors. 
If there was a 140-150 PTO HP tractor with powershift, a comfortable cab with AC under $ 25k, I'd like to own it.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Unfortunately I think as well if it's hot and won't restart your injection pump is shot. This is from personal experience. In a pinch take a gallon of cold water and pour it on the pump, if it starts its the pump.

From my personal experience older the better if well maintained. Granted the cabs on my white 2-110's aren't as nice as our Massey 8160 but the most electronic thing on the Whites are the radio's.

Grandfather's 1964 Oliver 1600 just keeps going. Pops right off every time and barely loses any oil between changes.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I wish I could find an older tractor that was comfortable, with good visibility.
> NH 8670 and Deere xx10 series seems to be the earliest tractors with a more spacious cab and some modern amenities, but you're still going to pay 40k for one.
> I like IH 88 series with cabs, but they get big money because they're starting to become "collectors" tractors.
> If there was a 140-150 PTO HP tractor with powershift, a comfortable cab with AC under $ 25k, I'd like to own it.


Full powershifts are nice but partial powershifts aren't bad at all for hay work. And they rob less power too.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Hey jr, I think I got your answer to your dilemma. Get a cupholder for the fender and ya can keep rollin!

I think mlappin might have something on the injection pump but I wouldn't pour cold water on a hot pump.

I love the old iron too but when there is a chance to boost productivity , well maybe change is good. 16 row planters, triple mowers, auto steer is here. I don't like a lot of it but my competition uses it so if I want to be relevant a few years down the road...


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

When the pump was bad on my 4020 I used some creek water soaked up with a glove once to cool it.

Another time I was in a hurry to get it running after I made the mistake of shutting her down. Luckily I was we'll hydrated and my kidneys were working good. That was enough to cool her down and get her cranked up right away again.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

There's one tractor left here from the 70's and it ain't going nowhere. It's '79 IH 686 with a T/A and a M&W Turbo, dynos out at 106hp at the PTO. No cab, no radio just pure tractor. The next one is a '91 CaseIH 5140 with a cab. It took quite awhile for my late FIL to get all the bugs worked out of that one, it has quite a bit electronics but it's very reliable today. Wife and son replaced a IH 574 a couple years ago with a '11 JD 5065M with a cab and I have to say they come in much, much less fatigued and dirty. Not sure how well it's going to hold up but so far so good. Son likes all the creature comforts and so does my wife but she still like to run the 686.

You need to weigh your finances or out flow against what's coming in if you start financing a bunch of equipment.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

barnrope said:


> When the pump was bad on my 4020 I used some creek water soaked up with a glove once to cool it.
> 
> Another time I was in a hurry to get it running after I made the mistake of shutting her down. Luckily I was we'll hydrated and my kidneys were working good. That was enough to cool her down and get her cranked up right away again.


You actually peed on the pump? :lol: Do these things vapor lock when shutdown hot or what?

If they're going to shutdown for any period of time here, they idle the 3 turbo tractors for about 5 minutes before shutting down. Read something once about cooling down the turbo by idling for a bit. Would that help with an injector pump?


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## GawasFarm (Jul 10, 2013)

Kind of on topic so not a thread steal I hope but does anybody have a scanner to scan the electronics on the new tractors like you can on your car??

I assume dealers would keep that under their hats but just wondering since like most of us we can fix most things except when it comes to the electronics then we are just guessing. If you could scan and find what module or fuse/switch/motor what ever it was you get the part and install.

Just a thought as that would make the time saving electronics not so evil.

Edit - I did find something and posted new topic


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Grateful11 said:


> You actually peed on the pump? :lol: Do these things vapor lock when shutdown hot or what?
> 
> If they're going to shutdown for any period of time here, they idle the 3 turbo tractors for about 5 minutes before shutting down. Read something once about cooling down the turbo by idling for a bit. Would that help with an injector pump?


Yes. It was on the planter. I had an important call coming in and cab is loud so I just shut off the key after I had idled down and stopped. Was talking and not thinking about the pump problem. After the conversation it wouldn't go and I was in a hurry so I decided to use the natural coolant I had. It did work! Since that time I put a new pump on it and overhauled the engine so I shouldn't have to do that again.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Seems to me that hours per year would make a big difference. A few thousand hours a year and you'll be getting your money out of a newer tractor hopefully before corrosion etc. sets in.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

I am for both sides on this deal. For one I would upgrade one more tractor so you have two newer ones with cabs that you can trust to get the job done and every one likes to run.

Now, as for the 986, I would fix it. It is a big enough tractor, has a good cab that keeps most of the dust off of you. It is hard to know were to stop throwing money in them. For instance, start with the engine end, just replace both hoses and get the radiator boiled and painted. Then change the thermostat and check the water pump. That is one system done. I like the old iron too, however if you want it to run another 20 years with little issue, take the time to make it new again.

And spend the money for a new seat!


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## jrwhit04 (Jun 28, 2010)

MT Hayer....................Just to clarify, the 986 is an open operators station, not a cab tractor and it got a new seat last year, and MAN what a difference a nice seat makes! The only cab tractor on the farm is the 2004 JX95, and yes it sure is nicer to bale with and not be covered with dust, but it just doesn't quite have enough power to pull the baler up hills and maintain speed. That old 986 has a lot more grunt, which I am sure comes from it's much larger displacement engine. The JX95 is a 3.9L 4 cylinder turbo, which does good most of the time, but as expected doesn't have the low RPM torque of the 6 cylinder in the 986.

It would seem to me that a newer 120 PTO HP tractor with a cab and loader would suit us well and compliment our current tractors. Our smallest tractor (besides with old Old Farmall Super C of my great grandpa's) is a gas IH 454 and it would be a good canidate to trade even thought we wouldn't get much for it probably. We could also do without one of the 574's most likely, assuming the other one was in good working order.

Thanks again for the dialogue, it is much appreciated.


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## oldcboy (Jan 14, 2012)

When I took an Ag engineering course in the early "70's the instructor stated that the old "D" JD was designed to last 30 years. The new 4630's about 15. Do you see a pattern there? Just my opinion. Dale


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

jrwhit04 said:


> MT Hayer....................Just to clarify, the 986 is an open operators station, not a cab tractor and it got a new seat last year, and MAN what a difference a nice seat makes!


If you don't mind me asking what seat did you get? Our 686's seat suspension is shot and the vinyl is rock hard.


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## bluefarmer (Oct 10, 2010)

May not matter to some, 2000 model and newer New Holland tractors have to run at a higher rpm to achieve 540 at pto


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Injection pumps get wore and the internal tolerances increase to the point they can't build enough pressure at cranking speed to open the injectors. Cooling the exterior off tightens them back up enough to get em to fire, once running, the pump runs faster at idle speed than cranking speed and will continue to run.

I've been in a injection shop when they were bench testing a injection pump, they actually make a lot of their own noise and generate some heat as well.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

You might even think of replacing open station tractors with tractors with air conditioned and heated cabs from the same vintage. A 986 or 4430 with factory air are a giant step up from no cab at all or an old Hiniker or Year Around cab.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

no kidding, aftermarket cabs are horrible, louder with em than without. That's why a lot of those had the windows and doors removed and are more of a rops than a cab anymore.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

I see, whit04. Hah tough to talk about a cab when you don't have one! I ran a 424 I think it was this spring and it was not comfy at all. I can understand you trading those series off. I might suggest trading the 86 for a 1086 with a cab. There was a lot of those made it seams.

I agree with you whole heartedly on the 120hp. That really is a nice all around size. I might suggest a MX 120 or the McCormick version? I don't like the park brake, but that is how they are. The ac works good in these series. What price range would you be looking to trade for?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

When I overhaul an engine, one of the major items I replace is the injection pump. I am surprised that the dealer didn't recommend it.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

SVFHAY said:


> I think mlappin might have something on the injection pump but I wouldn't pour cold water on a hot pump.


Won't hurt it, Hummers have snorkel kits where you can practically submerge the whole vehicle in water, the pump is under water at the time. A lot of heavy trucks the pump is actually pretty low in the frame, tons of nice cold rain water, slush or snow are on the pump quite often, does't hurt em. I might have used cold in place of cool though, I certainly wouldn't waste ice water when a garden hose will work. You can kind of tell when it's a worn pump though, ran just fine until shutting off, cranks and cranks, no hint of smoke, especially with the older manual kill pumps, not a lot to go wrong there, especially when most of them if your kill cable comes unhooked they go back to the run position on their own.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Look in my signature area..... Im a plain simple kinda person. I like my IH's prefrably the 56 and 66series. They have been too h*ll and back and you can use them broken and what not. For their age and useage they are rather reliable and easy and cheap to fix. Our JD 7405 Has been reliable but the little things that have needed fixing have been expesive to repair. Key to farming with boat anchors is to have multiples

Imo you should trade that gasser off for something. Dont trade the 574 you'll regret it they are some of the toughest tractors for that size. Never had cab so not sure about that. Keep what you have. Atleast you know what you have atleast you know what you have and not someone elses problem.


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## nanuk (Aug 29, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I wish I could find an older tractor that was comfortable, with good visibility.
> NH 8670 and Deere xx10 series seems to be the earliest tractors with a more spacious cab and some modern amenities, but you're still going to pay 40k for one.
> I like IH 88 series with cabs, but they get big money because they're starting to become "collectors" tractors.
> If there was a 140-150 PTO HP tractor with powershift, a comfortable cab with AC under $ 25k, I'd like to own it.


like an AC7060PS? 160PTO HP, any cab that I can sit in and look around without bumping my head is a comfortable cab (the seat is the real issue) and AC can always be made to work...... and you can own 4 of them for under $25K


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Curious about your IH 464. I have one that is a gas also and it has been a nightmare of a money pit through the years?


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