# Making heads or tails of Preservatives



## DLCC2 (Jul 12, 2016)

OK I'm back again with a rookie question. I was looking for a good in baler moisture tester to reduce some of the guess work of hand checking hay. Main reason behind that is the business partner (big brother) and I both have public jobs currently and fine tuning the operation would greatly reduce time wasted. In my hunt for a tester I ran up on some forums about preservatives and I don't think I'm grasping something here. In my area spraying a liquid on dry hay while baling is unheard of (and possibly deemed the works of satan). I wasn't sure if this was just a practice done on alfalfa and other legume crops for leaf retention or if it was also used on grass hays. Really in the dark here and since its unheard of here asking for advice from a local wouldn't get me far. Being young first generation farmers we are willing to roll the dice on a different method but I'm not willing to jump totally blind.

Thanks in advance,

Tyler


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

DLCC2 said:


> Being young first generation farmers we are willing to roll the dice on a different method but I'm not willing to jump totally blind.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Tyler


You are smart in asking/learning, but also you might be a teacher in your area. I use preservatives, but I am in a different area and grow manly alfalfa. I was one of the first in my area using preservatives, using a tedder, using a net wrap baler, etc. Now, my neighbors are using the same products/equipment.

Keep asking/learning an you might be the first in your area to properly use lots of things. Here is the big BUT, personal knowledge of what works in your situation doesn't always work for someone else (and the reverse is true). Be willing to experiment, as an example: when I started out no-tilling alfalfa, the first fields I did were well hidden from the road (keep your mistakes/ embarrassment to yourself). 

I lurked around HT for years and learned a lot (google HayTalk, HayWilson for some real high quality information, IMHO). Hopefully you will also learn from this site. 

You might want to edit your post to what exactly are you are planning on harvesting for hay (eg. alfalfa, teff, OG, timothy, etc.).

Good luck.

Larry


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

Hello Tyler,

There are a lot of threads here on HT about the very subject. To answer your first question, I will ask one! Are you looking for a baler mounted tester or hand held?

I've found the best hand held is the Delmhorst FX2000

I would say that the most widely used stand alone and suggested here on HT, baler mounted testers is the Agra Tronix BHT-2.

If you are using an Automatic applicator system there a few to chose from. These I'm less familiar with. Some one else here will most certainly chime in. These Automatic systems will typically use Buffered Acid, it is applied to the Hay as it enters the baler the amount needs to be regulated depending on the moisture of the hay.

There are several other products that are yes, in liquid form that have a constant application rate and is not dependent on what the moisture is of the hay. Up to a certain moisture level. Typically all these products are good up to the low 20's in moisture.

I have been using a product called First response for the last three years. It is a liquid mixed 10:1 with water that is applied at one constant rate. I can honestly tell you that it does work! In fact it has saved me more than once. I have used it on hay that was on the edge or even dry to bale but the humidity was to high with rain on the way. I have used it on hay that didn't have enough moisture when baling to keep leaf shatter and dust down. Lastly I use it most when the hay must be baled and to moist to bale without it. Where If I didn't use it my hay would heat up and rot, or worst burn.

I hope this helps. Do some searches here on HT. As well search google to search HT with good results.

Cheers,


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Welcome to hay talk. I currently run the single sensor moisture tester on square baler and someday look to up grade to the agra tronix bht-2. If you are going to also have a handheld one, check the hay with both. I have found the baler mounted tester is about 5% lower than hand held.

Concerning preservative I am using a dry product sold by silo-king. I seem to have had good luck with and last year and this year baled "dry" hay that was at min 25% and maxed out the tester on some. I would never sell it but feed it to my animals. Normally just use it for just in case scenarios and along woods.


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## DLCC2 (Jul 12, 2016)

Thanks to both of y'all for chiming in!! I guess what I'm getting at is it actually successful in most situations and most importantly is it profitable.



DSLinc1017 said:


> I have been using a product called First response for the last three years. It is a liquid mixed 10:1 with water that is applied at one constant rate. I can honestly tell you that it does work! In fact it has saved me more than once. I have used it on hay that was on the edge or even dry to bale but the humidity was to high with rain on the way. I have used it on hay that didn't have enough moisture when baling to keep leaf shatter and dust down. Lastly I use it most when the hay must be baled and to moist to bale without it. Where If I didn't use it my hay would heat up and rot, or worst burn.


DSLinc. Humidity was a big concern on the affects of the product being in the south some summers you have to chew a mid day breath lol.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Being you are in a more humid area than I you might find the attached piece (figure 5) useful. I have a Delmhost, Agri -tronix and the meter that came with my CropSaver applicator. As others have mention you will get differences between them.

Next year I plan on re-researching (here on HT), the usuage of humidity readers in the windrow. I have already bought a couple of these:

https://www.amazon.com/SUKRAGRAHA-Temperature-Humidity-Thermometer-Hygrometer/dp/B01DZCHTC6/ref=zg_bs_3737571_19?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=Q95TMA7AEGDXH7GA61WK

There is a tread somewhere on HT on humidity and hay moisture in the windrow, just don't ask me where.

Larry


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

DLCC2 said:


> Thanks to both of y'all for chiming in!! I guess what I'm getting at is it actually successful in most situations and most importantly is it profitable.
> 
> DSLinc. Humidity was a big concern on the affects of the product being in the south some summers you have to chew a mid day breath lol.


As R8223 pointed out, Google Hay Wilson here on HT, He is the one who opened my eyes to what humidity does to making hay.

And yes, I have spent quite a few years down your way, One of the reasons I'm in Vermont, The natural AC is on most of the time


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## DLCC2 (Jul 12, 2016)

r82230 said:


> Being you are in a more humid area than I you might find the attached piece (figure 5) useful. I have a Delmhost, Agri -tronix and the meter that came with my CropSaver applicator. As others have mention you will get differences between them.
> 
> Next year I plan on re-researching (here on HT), the usuage of humidity readers in the windrow. I have already bought a couple of these:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the link. Have you had any luck with the humidity tester ? I never really thought to much about how the humidity affected the moisture of the hay itself. I always knew that it would prolong dry time so if its accurate in the windrow that would be nice. Thanks again for all the help. I never put to much thought into some of this but I guess the slow time this winter has given me time to ponder.

Tyler


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I have Harvestec propionic acid applicators on both my big round and small square balers.

I live in an area where the humidity seldom gets below 60% which means I have drying issues. The lowest hay moisture I get is about 18%. Further my ground is hilly which means the top of the hill can be at 12% and the bottom at 20%.

In the last few years, I've made it a practice of simply adding 4 lbs per ton as a base line. If the moisture creeps up, I will up the rate to 8 lbs/ton at 20%, 16 lbs/ton at 24%.

Hope this helps.

Ralph

A farmer's gotta do what a farmer's gotta do (to get the job done).


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I put the JD labeled version of the Agrtonix BHT-2 in my square baler last year, lower price and 2 vs 1 year warranty. Terrific feedback - highly recommend one.

For preservative, I have a simple on/off system by CropCare. I use buffered propionic acid under the New Holland label as they had the best deal around me - including shipping.

Lots of posts regarding hay preservatives on haytalk - makes for some good reading.

Good luck,

Bill


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## qcfarms (Dec 14, 2014)

I have been thinking about the using the hay guard preservative this year. I only bale between 3-4k square bales a year with 500-600 of that being alfalfa. For the 5 gal bucket (hay guard) I've been quoted $130. That's right at $2.60 a lb. I've touched base with the Dohrmann folks for their applicator and it is just under $1k for the 25 gal applicator and all the associated goodies. So now my only real decision is to buy the Dohrmann or try to DIY an applicator. I could easily get by with a 10-15 gal applicator based on the size of my fields as I typically don't bale more than 5-600 bales in a day. I'm guessing that if I do go DIY, i should be able to build the applicator with flow meter for around $500.


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## DLCC2 (Jul 12, 2016)

Ok I appreciate all the the response here and it has cleared things up for me. I guess what I'm still hung up on is how do you calibrate the applicator. I'm reading that the product needs to be applied at "X" pounds per ton but some at a variable rate dependent on moisture. There are a lot of variables that dictate how much you bale per hour, mainly ground speed and windrow density. How do you even begin to make a guess at how much you cover at a time and how big of an issue is it if you spray to much or to little. I don't plan on changing my baling practices much at all. I know this isn't some magic juice that will allow for baling a day early, but I feel like it will improve quality if properly used.

I might be overthinking this or making it hard than it really is but I don't want to p*ss money or a crop over lack of knowledge of the equipment I'm trying to use.

Tyler


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tyler,

See attached, might be of help on your tonnage question (and thanks to Dohrmann).

Larry

PS I have had both a prefab applicator and a home made jobs. For what it is worth, buy a prefab, with automatic on/off feature, unless you can work for way less than minimum wage and don't mind cursing at your dumb mistakes that is. (You can guess whether I speaking from experience or not).


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## DLCC2 (Jul 12, 2016)

r82230 said:


> Tyler,
> 
> See attached, might be of help on your tonnage question (and thanks to Dohrmann).
> 
> ...


That cleared all of that up. Much obliged sir.

Opinions on Hayguard ? Seems like a decent, easy to work with product. Haven't had any luck getting anyone on the phone down there but not a deal breaker I can try again later. I have read on some forums about them and First Response. I guess the appeal is the constant application rate.

Also, wanted to give a shout out to Amber at Dorhmann. She did a fantastic job answering my questions about applicators and the likes. Seems like a quality company with bang up customer service.

Tyler


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Welcome to Haytalk, Tyler. The preservatives can be used with any type of hay, but there may be some differences in application rate based on the crop type, so read the instructions for whatever type you use. Additionally, there are two types of moisture that you can be dealing with, dew moisture and stem moisture. Dew moisture is what accumulates on the hay from the air moisture condensing onto the hay while stem moisture is moisture that hasn't escaped from the hay yet during the dry-down after it's cut. On the Crop Saver acid that I use, there are different rates based on stem or dew moisture (yeah, one more factor to consider when picking your application rate).

FYI, I believe that the JD and NH/CaseIH brands of preservative are the same thing as what Harvest Tech sells. They just put different labels on it to catch the eye of the brand loyalists.

If you do choose to buy a system from someone, there are a few choices out there. Harvest Tech and Dohrmann Enterprises are two that come to mind, but there are a couple others as well. Dohrmann does have (or at least used to) a person that had an account on Haytalk and they were very helpful in answering questions not only about applicators but preservatives as well. And no, they did not try to constantly push their product either, they were just genuinely interested in helping people out.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

qcfarms said:


> I have been thinking about the using the hay guard preservative this year. I only bale between 3-4k square bales a year with 500-600 of that being alfalfa. For the 5 gal bucket (hay guard) I've been quoted $130. That's right at $2.60 a lb. I've touched base with the Dohrmann folks for their applicator and it is just under $1k for the 25 gal applicator and all the associated goodies. So now my only real decision is to buy the Dohrmann or try to DIY an applicator. I could easily get by with a 10-15 gal applicator based on the size of my fields as I typically don't bale more than 5-600 bales in a day. I'm guessing that if I do go DIY, i should be able to build the applicator with flow meter for around $500.


You can get a simple on/off applicator with 25 gallon tank for $435.

http://www.paulbparts.com/product/25-gallon-liquid-applicator-with-manual-pressure-regulator/



DLCC2 said:


> Ok I appreciate all the the response here and it has cleared things up for me. I guess what I'm still hung up on is how do you calibrate the applicator. I'm reading that the product needs to be applied at "X" pounds per ton but some at a variable rate dependent on moisture. There are a lot of variables that dictate how much you bale per hour, mainly ground speed and windrow density. How do you even begin to make a guess at how much you cover at a time and how big of an issue is it if you spray to much or to little. I don't plan on changing my baling practices much at all. I know this isn't some magic juice that will allow for baling a day early, but I feel like it will improve quality if properly used.
> 
> I might be overthinking this or making it hard than it really is but I don't want to p*ss money or a crop over lack of knowledge of the equipment I'm trying to use.
> 
> Tyler


IMHO - every application system has conversion/application chart.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

On the dry preservative I have it set for 400 bales an hour at 25% moisture in 1st cutting and this year reset it at 350 bales an hour at 20% moisture. The figures are always based on 50 lbs. small square bales. It is a high rate but I only use it when I need to and need to make sure I am putting enough on.

Someday when I don't have anything else to spend money on would like to get the variable rate controller so it can be adjusted in field.


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

So I'll just explain how I figure my rates for preservative. 
After I weigh a few bales using a hand held weight thing I got on eBay, I aim for an average of 50lbs. 
So now I'm baling hay and I count how many bales made every 3 minutes. 
Say I make 100 bales in 3 minutes @50lb bale 
5000lbs of hay that needs acid because it's 18 percent. 
Figure 4lbs a ton so we need 10 lbs of acid in 3 minutes.
After that it's up to your system psi and nozzles. Should have a sheet with psi and lbs per hour at x amount of psi

I sell acid by the tote(2400lbs).


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Also I have run side by side vs the automatic system and definitely saves money long term. I tend to be over generous on acid because I always worry I don't put enough on. That's why I deal acid so I can buy enough it's cheap to over use. 80 cents a lb is what I sell for.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

sethd11 said:


> So I'll just explain how I figure my rates for preservative.
> After I weigh a few bales using a hand held weight thing I got on eBay, I aim for an average of 50lbs.
> So now I'm baling hay and I count how many bales made every 3 minutes.
> Say I make 100 bales in 3 minutes @50lb bale
> ...


I think you might be a little high on the number of bales in 3 minutes. At 100 bales in 3 minutes it's taking you just over 0.5 seconds to make a bale... while it would be nice to get baling done that quick, it's not going to happen.

If I push a little with my baler in good windrows, etc. 15 bales in 3 minutes is not out of the question (300 bales an hour). At that baling rate with 50lb bales, I would need to apply 1.5lbs of preservative.

Your math is correct for 100 bales in 3 minutes, but that isn't a reasonable baling rate. Perhaps you intended to use 10 bales in 3 minutes (200 bales an hour)?


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

I just used 100 as an easy number. Probably should have used 10... Wasnt thinking clearly...


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

sethd11 said:


> I just used 100 as an easy number. Probably should have used 10... Wasnt thinking clearly...


I thought that might have been the case... the 100 bale rate would be nice though. It would certainly make beating the weather window a lot easier.


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