# Small square balers guys. Who Added preservative applicator



## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

In tuff times without many options when there is a need to put preservative on hay.

What brand and how fancy of a setup did you use?

What brand of chemical do you use?

I sell most of my hay to horse people so have to be careful on what is used.

I would use if moisture is in the rang 18% to 22%

Thanks


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

Dohrmann Enterprises applicator, basic setup

Hay Guard preservative

Shelia


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## gearhartfarms82 (May 10, 2015)

Harvest tec/dorman 
Normal juice. I get from amish just cheaper than newholland

Been running for yrs.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

I use silo king dry preserve and a gandy applicator. Been happy with it.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Wouldn't bale without preservative. This stuff is addictive as crack! Juice hay preservative out of Canada. Terry is a great guy with a great product. Even with shipping it's much cheaper than anything else I've found. Basic crop care applicator, but plan to run auto harvest tec. I will still be running juice in it though. I regularly bale in the high 20's low 30's on pure alfalfa not problems. Only happy customers and a empty hay barn when everybody else's barns are still full. That's partically has to do with my Southern charm with the horse lady customers though ????


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## GLSOHIO (Jul 29, 2011)

I am currently using the Harvest Tech set up and hay Guard. When you work off the farm and have time constraints; it will make a lot of difference between quality hay and just hay. This is especially true in the early spring finding a window to get the hay down and back up and in the barn.


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## Cobercow (Dec 4, 2015)

I also use silo king dry preservative and LOVE it. I acquired a small gandy applicator at an auction sale for $25...I paid over $1000 for the larger one on the rnd baler.

Even my most picky horse customers cannot discriminate the quality of this hay. Couple silo king with "on the go" moisture monitoring and you can start baling sooner and keep baling longer.

I was iffy on the first day I used the product.....it was not until the dead of winter when I got down to the treated hay in the mow, and it smelled like the day it was made! Also it didn't loose weight while stored, as the non treated did.

Silo king makes money for me!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Well I can't find any dealer who offers Silo King around here. I can get all the items needed to use the Harvest Tech. So will be forced to go that way.

Now the question is what are most guys using? The Auto setup or the electric setup?

The Auto is $5676.00
The Electric is $1475.00

Can anyone justify spending $4200.00 more for the auto setup? Is it truly worth the huge cost? All input needed before I pull the trigger.

Nether setup comes with the crop eyes. This option costs $587.00

New Holland BC5070


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## northern Ohio baler (Sep 28, 2014)

How many ton's are you planning on baling per year?


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

buy dohrmann you'l be happier. we started with harvest tec now my system is mostly dohrmann and i have better luck and much better service. started using havest tec crop saver. then we went to preservor. wasn't happy. i'm going to look at a silo king setup for the small square baler tomorrow. we brought a barrel of juice home from new york last week. this spring we are going to do a little test. we are going to try crop saver,juice,preservor and hay guard in the round and big square balers and silo king in the small squares. after we go through their waiting time we'll open some up and see how it looks. then we will compare results and price and then go from there.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

hay rake said:


> buy dohrmann you'l be happier. we started with harvest tec now my system is mostly dohrmann and i have better luck and much better service. started using havest tec crop saver. then we went to preservor. wasn't happy. i'm going to look at a silo king setup for the small square baler tomorrow. we brought a barrel of juice home from new york last week. this spring we are going to do a little test. we are going to try crop saver,juice,preservor and hay guard in the round and big square balers and silo king in the small squares. after we go through their waiting time we'll open some up and see how it looks. then we will compare results and price and then go from there.


We sure would like to see your results hay rake.

Regards, Mike


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## northern Ohio baler (Sep 28, 2014)

We run four harvest tec 400 series automatic applicators on four BC 5070s and one electronic on an oddball case IH sb541. They're expensive but they work great and when something goes wrong just give them a call and they'll figure it. A+ customer service. If you have an IPad you can buy the automatic setup without the monitor and run it with your IPad. If you're running some bales through the baler the automatic will pay for itself fairly quickly if the conditions are adverse . But that is just my experience I know everyone has a different climate and conditions.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

not as much as me mike. i have been hoping i would find this info somewhere else but nope. i get to be the guinea pig again. i sure wish someone else would make some of my most costly learning experiences. it would save me a lot. one thing i have learned and will share is this. if you buy preservor make sure it was made in the same months of your summer. it has a shelf life of 18 months and can not be froze.. also has a disclaimer on the label that basically says if this does not work to bad. we baled just under 400 acres of second crop in round and big square bales none higher than 16 most under 12 percent. the only bales that were any good were the ones that i decided, well i'm just wasting it and shut it off. guy on the round baler doesn't pay for it so he did just what i told him to do and sprayed everything. results, we sprayed water on most all our dry hay. was so happy when a customer in Indiana called and said " the hay is caramelized. then when we start digging the dealer says oops i think we froze it. bottom line, i was told have a nice day. hows that for customer service


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

I picked up an older harvest tech automatic applicator off craigslist a few years ago and have played with it a few times, but haven't run the spray regularly. The one time we did use it, I was impressed. We had hay that was way too green (pushing 30% or more in some spots) and just ran Crop Saver (NH's brand of what Harvest Tech sells - same as JD's stuff) at the max rate. The bales came out like bricks and the only ones that molded were the ones stacked against the hay loft floor (and only on the edge of the bale, not inside). With a little more experience and care, I'm pretty sure the hay would have come out fine.

I am planing on adding an applicator to our newer baler and am leaning towards either a Dohrmann or Crop Care applicator and trying The Juice. The Harvest Tech units are just a little too expensive for what I'm doing.

Edit: The only reason I am thinking of switching to The Juice is due to price. We'll have to see how it compares to the NH dealers latest batch of Crop Saver.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

hay rake said:


> it has a shelf life of 18 months and can not be froze


That is one of the reasons I chose to go with Crop Saver, it doesn't freeze (at least not at the temps we get around here) and doesn't have a shelf life.


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## Nate926 (Apr 6, 2014)

Juice doesn't have a shelf life and I don't think it will freeze


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

that is also my understanding of juice according to the labei.


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

hay rake said:


> buy dohrmann you'l be happier. we started with harvest tec now my system is mostly dohrmann and i have better luck and much better service. started using havest tec crop saver. then we went to preservor. wasn't happy. i'm going to look at a silo king setup for the small square baler tomorrow. we brought a barrel of juice home from new york last week. this spring we are going to do a little test. we are going to try crop saver,juice,preservor and hay guard in the round and big square balers and silo king in the small squares. after we go through their waiting time we'll open some up and see how it looks. then we will compare results and price and then go from there.


Hay Rake - thanks for the good words, we all appreciate it. On a side note if you decide to run these test this season, please give me a call prior to doing so @ 320-252-8999. When switching products within an application system you need to be very diligent with product neutralization from one product to the next otherwise you can get a negative reaction that can cause issue with the pumping components in the pumps. It's not due to bad products, just like bleach and ammonia are both great cleaners, just don't mix them together. I can guide you through this or possibly provide you with valve kits as a "sponsorship" to your trial to assure you system works correctly for all products to assure a fair and quality comparison. I am a HUGE fan of real world trials being shared by non-biased parties. Good luck with this - we look forward to the results. -Dan


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

thanks dan. this i know, lots of water lots of baking soda. you see this is one of my points. i love your help. i will not run someone down to run you up but this is my point on who to buy from. sorry to say though you did notice that one product is dry. i don't know what to think about that yet. not looking forward to changing applicators if they come out on top. i sure wish someone else was doing this instead of little ole me. i will be in touch for any kind of help you can offer. again this is why i am one of your VERY satisfied customers. thanks gary


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

hay rake said:


> thanks dan. this i know, lots of water lots of baking soda. you see this is one of my points. i love your help. i will not run someone down to run you up but this is my point on who to buy from. sorry to say though you did notice that one product is dry. i don't know what to think about that yet. not looking forward to changing applicators if they come out on top. i sure wish someone else was doing this instead of little ole me. i will be in touch for any kind of help you can offer. again this is why i am one of your VERY satisfied customers. thanks gary


I to will be looking forward to your results. My partner and I have had the same discussion. He thinks liquid would be better and I believe the silo king works very well. He has lost hay and I baled 30%+ clover that I am feeding right now.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Had a manual applicator in the past, presently using an automatic (Harvest Tech). I will not give up the automatic now that I have it.

With the manual, I have forgot to turn it off (more times than I care to mention) wasting a lot more product than I care to tell. Forgot to turn on, wasting valuable hay. AND did not always apply the proper amount, with variable hay conditions (low areas, tree shade, etc.).

When you see the automatic in operation, adjusting the amount of product as the hay moisture varies constantly, you know that you would not have been doing that with a manual version, more likely you would have been over-applying to be safe.

Cons: price of automatic

Pros: savings of product and/or hay, by having a more accurate amount applied, less waste.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

Dan and i had a good discussion today and we both agreed on one thing. my results will be my results for central maine and my type grasses. they may not be the same for other areas. where you are in pa they might apply but i don't know about tennessee. i will gladly share results but they will need to be taken with a grain of salt. i know we can dry hay down a lot better here than pa. we bale at 12 percent moisture around 28-30 hours after mowing in the long days of late spring and early summer. we never treat teen moisture hay unless i blow the weather and need to bale it or loose it. we do treat big bale hay down to 8-10 percent as an insurance policy because we pack them so tight.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

TORCH said:


> In tuff times without many options when there is a need to put preservative on hay.
> 
> What brand and how fancy of a setup did you use?
> 
> ...


Hey there Torch,

We have the Harvest Tech Electronic set up on both a round baler and small square. We had decided to use either Hay Guard or First Response, Both products require a constant application rate. There for we had no need for the Automatic application that would be used with Acid. Granted the cost savings was also a factor.

One of the reasons we decided to go with a product that had one application rate was due to the land that we hay. We have a lot of changing terrain, changing grass within some of those fields, wood lines, wet and dry sections. Some of our fields are only a few acres. There for we were finding that moisture would and could change drastically every few bales in some instances.

Moisture readings are taken when the bale is formed. not whats getting treated, especially in thin crops like second cut.

So for us, having a set and forget made sense, and without an Automatic set up took the guess work and worry out.

We also bale with the same tractor, so having one controller with identical systems was also a given cost saving. Same wiring, same hook up.

We have been using a product called First Response with a lot of success. Granted we did end up adding an additional piece of equipment in the system. Its called a Mini dos 10. It automatically mixes the First Response with water at the required rate of 10:1. Some where here in HT is a tread with pictures if you are interested in the set up.

I also posted some pictures of the controls in a tread called small upgrades. I think.....

I mounted the applicator on /off close to my hand for easy relaxing comfort. Goes well with an air ride seat 

Hope this hopes,

Cheers.


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

DSLinc1017 said:


> Hey there Torch,
> We have the Harvest Tech Electronic set up on both a round baler and small square. We had decided to use either Hay Guard or First Response, Both products require a constant application rate. There for we had no need for the Automatic application that would be used with Acid. Granted the cost savings was also a factor.
> One of the reasons we decided to go with a product that had one application rate was due to the land that we hay. We have a lot of changing terrain, changing grass within some of those fields, wood lines, wet and dry sections. Some of our fields are only a few acres. There for we were finding that moisture would and could change drastically every few bales in some instances.
> Moisture readings are taken when the bale is formed. not whats getting treated, especially in thin crops like second cut.
> ...


Hi DSLinc1017

How are you testing moisture on your setups? I noticed the Electronic kit does not include any sensors in bale chamber. I have the Delmhorst FX 2000 kit for testing moisture also had a sensor in bale chamber.

I called Harvest Tech to ask more about their systems. My sensor is good for + - 3% the Auto setup is good for + or - 1%. Now I have to remember this is a sales guy I'm talking to. Lol lol

Question 2 do you ever think it would be worth the money to have an automatic setup? In your case of all the different conditions you encounter? I wonder how much product you might save if the auto setup works as well as they clam. It seem your setting the amount of spray at one setting for all the conditions and you're getting great results with what you're doing.

Question 3 Have you ever tried the Crop Saver acid?
Thanks ( To my best friend in Vermont )


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

TORCH said:


> Hi DSLinc1017
> 
> How are you testing moisture on your setups? I noticed the Electronic kit does not include any sensors in bale chamber. I have the Delmhorst FX 2000 kit for testing moisture also had a sensor in bale chamber.
> 
> ...


Hey Torch!

So.... I have a Agratronix BHT-2 in both my small square and round baler. They share the same controller. I just ordered an extra set of sensors and wires for the second baler. The BHT-2 works independent of the preservative set up.

I can't say as far as the accuracy of the FX2000 with the sensors. My guess is that with the sensors in the chamber you are only measuring the cut or uncut side of the bale. Depending on where the sensor is set up. The BHT-2 has two sensors and takes some sort of average of the two sensors. One sensor is on the cut side one on the un-cut side.

I DO have a Delmhost F2000 hand held with the 18" probe. I always stick a few bales with the hand held, Just to double check my BHT-2 and the readings are for the most part matching. I get real paranoid of burning down my old wooden barn!

Q#2

As far the automatic set up, I have heard great things about them for folks that are using Acid. Hopefully some of you Automatic users will chime in!! It takes the guess work out and saves on acid consumption.

For the product I'm using the automatic would be a waist of money as First Response is a one rate application for what ever the moisture is. Same for Hay Guard as well. The only monitoring I do is shutting the pump off if i'm not feeding the baler, Like at the end of a big turnaround. Hence why I purposely mounted the on off switch close to my arm rest. (call me lazy)  I guess If I was a big operator and couldn't deal with the switch (on and off) and if I was rich the automatic might be nice.

With all of that said, When I'm baling smalls and the hay is down in the 12% range I don't use any product. With rounds, I'm a little more careful.

And yes I am getting great results with the First Response.

Q#3

I have never tried Acid, (that didn't sound right).... however I do have several friends who do and one big producer who did use Acid. The big producer who mainly does big 3X3 now uses First Response with the same success as me.

With that said, When I did invest in my Harvest Tech Electronic system. I did so with the thought that if First Response didn't work. I could still use the same system with acid. As sort of a fall back, or if for some reason I ran out of First Response I could easy get some acid in a pinch.

Hope that helps!

Back at you Wisconsin, my Friend!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Hi DSL

As far as I can tell you been using First Response for 3 years. If you had to do it all over again what would you change?

Would you change any of your spray equipment?

Your a smart man setting up 2 balers with one quick change set up. I think I could do the same thing setting up my Discbine and baler with Rain guard and First Response. I sent for info to Nurturite will see what they can offer to set me up.

There is a farm show coming up I'm going to go and see what there is to offer there. Thank you for all your priceless info so far!

Thanks for your kindness we all get better with this forum!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

After hours of research and time passing and learning along the way. First response seemed to be the cats ass. As it is a one rate application product. But further investigation finds Hay Guard is also a one rate application product. The desirable aspect of the Hay Guard does not require a mixing valve in the system. This can get you a system for less without the $600 mixing MiniDos Valve. Dohrmann Inc seems to have a good customer support system from what I read off this site. Will find out this week as see what comes my way.

thanks


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## sfny2012 (Feb 21, 2012)

After researching this topic to death, I found this recent thread that seems to have the most updated information. I have been attempting to decide how to move forward with preservatives on my operations. I have used crop saver (acid) for the last 3 years on big squares (3x3, harvest tech fully automatic system) and my buyer has never really complained and last year I did make hay that pushed 30%. I don't think there's any argument that the acid works, just the usual complaints that everyone else has (smell, irritates skin...unplugging the baler when the hay is full of acid...) It's for these reasons that I'm seriously thinking of switching to either preservor or Hay Guard products. Right now I'm leaning towards Hay Guard and the latest information I've received is for a variable rate of 2lb/ton from 15%-20%, 4 lb/ton from 20% to 24% and 5 lb/ton over 25% (this is similar for all size bales, rough or square). My rep has told me that if I do go over 25%, to use Silo Guard, which is the same as hay guard, but does promote some fermentation (I haven't decided if this is a good thing or not...). Obviously I don't plan on baling over 25%, but after last year, who knows. My other operation I have only a round baler and I do dry and baleage, but would like to do more dry. I was all set to try siloking (dry, organic) until my potential buyer fell through and I got the price quote for an applicator of $2k. I still would like to try the silo guard product, but I'm looking for a used gandy box or siloking type dry applicator. I would love to share my results if I can get all set up, since I do think there is limited information on this topic. This would be another real world "trial" if I can get all set up before I have to start cutting.


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

sfny2012 said:


> After researching this topic to death, I found this recent thread that seems to have the most updated information. I have been attempting to decide how to move forward with preservatives on my operations. I have used crop saver (acid) for the last 3 years on big squares (3x3, harvest tech fully automatic system) and my buyer has never really complained and last year I did make hay that pushed 30%. I don't think there's any argument that the acid works, just the usual complaints that everyone else has (smell, irritates skin...unplugging the baler when the hay is full of acid...) It's for these reasons that I'm seriously thinking of switching to either preservor or Hay Guard products. Right now I'm leaning towards Hay Guard and the latest information I've received is for a variable rate of 2lb/ton from 15%-20%, 4 lb/ton from 20% to 24% and 5 lb/ton over 25% (this is similar for all size bales, rough or square). My rep has told me that if I do go over 25%, to use Silo Guard, which is the same as hay guard, but does promote some fermentation (I haven't decided if this is a good thing or not...). Obviously I don't plan on baling over 25%, but after last year, who knows. My other operation I have only a round baler and I do dry and baleage, but would like to do more dry. I was all set to try siloking (dry, organic) until my potential buyer fell through and I got the price quote for an applicator of $2k. I still would like to try the silo guard product, but I'm looking for a used gandy box or siloking type dry applicator. I would love to share my results if I can get all set up, since I do think there is limited information on this topic. This would be another real world "trial" if I can get all set up before I have to start cutting.


Just a couple of things. Have you given any consideration to using the Hay Guard/Silo Guard in a liquid form? Considering that you already have an applicator in place, I am sure that they can help you out to convert it over for use of their product and if not, we know a few people that build and sell applicators .

Not to discourage use of Silo Guard (liquid) for this application, however the Silo Guard product does contain some additional ingredients that are there to aid in Fermentation - as mentioned by the representative, and I am not sure if you would get much for a fermentation profile with moisture in the 30s, anyway. Given the low application rate on a per ton basis, we have seen more issues with nozzles plugging with Silo Guard due to these additional ingredients that cause some crystallization on the nozzles - cleaning them is easy, take them off and soak in warm water. When putting up baleage we don't see as many issues with the nozzles plugging because the harvest rate is increased, in turn increasing the output and nozzle size. Hay Guard does not contain the ingredients that cause the crystallization.

If you are interested in dry application, Gandy makes a good product, Valmar (Canadian company) makes a very nice unit that does come at a premium price and we also offer a granular system - our Augra Meter.

http://www.dohrmannenterprises.com/granular.html

Good Luck


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## sfny2012 (Feb 21, 2012)

I'm planning on just using the liquid on the big square baler. I just need to replace a couple of the nozzles on the harvest tec system. I think I need a set of yellow(to replace the blue)...already have orange and green. This is the direct recommendation from the hay guard rep. They also recommend a green (100) screen? I'm assuming this is smaller than the existing screen. I've thought about liquid on the round baler....just have a potential organic market and all the products for organic are dry. From what I've seen, only silo king and hay guard have an organic product. I'm not sure I want to spend $$ on a liquid system only to convert to a dry system a year later. I also wasn't about to drop the money on a dry system that I didn't need. I'm really at a bit of a crossroads at the moment. What would a Dorhmann system run for a dry box with blower and diffuser?


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

sfny2012 said:


> I'm planning on just using the liquid on the big square baler. I just need to replace a couple of the nozzles on the harvest tec system. I think I need a set of yellow(to replace the blue)...already have orange and green. This is the direct recommendation from the hay guard rep. They also recommend a green (100) screen? I'm assuming this is smaller than the existing screen. I've thought about liquid on the round baler....just have a potential organic market and all the products for organic are dry. From what I've seen, only silo king and hay guard have an organic product. I'm not sure I want to spend $$ on a liquid system only to convert to a dry system a year later. I also wasn't about to drop the money on a dry system that I didn't need. I'm really at a bit of a crossroads at the moment. What would a Dorhmann system run for a dry box with blower and diffuser?


I will reply to your Private Message (PM) that you sent regarding the cost of the dry unit. Thanks for reaching out!


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

DohrmannEnt said:


> I will reply to your Private Message (PM) that you sent regarding the cost of the dry unit. Thanks for reaching out!


I would think listing the details for all would be nice so everyone gets an idea. Of what it would take to get set up.


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## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

TORCH said:


> I would think listing the details for all would be nice so everyone gets an idea. Of what it would take to get set up.


Torch,

We are not sure if it is alright to post prices on this forum as an OEM/Distributor/Dealer. In some forums, products are not allowed to be 
"sold" on the forum, so pricing cannot be posted. Per your request, I am copying the PM sent to sfny2012 regarding this. If it is against the forum rules, then there would be a good chance that a moderator will pull this post.

***EDIT*** Out of respect to the advertisers on Hay Talk and per Vol (Mike's) comment below (2 down), we are removing the copy of the PM sent to sfny2012 that was posted below so that we comply with the forum policies.

***END EDIT***


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

I was unaware of some other forums with limits. I was just coming from the information stand point. this site rocks with information. so why hold back but was unaware of any limits. So I am in no way trying to break any rules so if my question crosses any line please excuse me.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Our regular advertisers have to be protected....if they are not and our advertisers fade....so does the HT forum.

We typically let some things slide if they are done in "good faith"....when someone thinks that they are "pulling the wool" or are smarter than the rest.....well that is when they end up in permanent purgatory....history.

Actually there is a fella on here occasionally from the Northeast that operates a "hardware" type business that is constantly pushing the limits...he has been notified but still continues.....he is the type that thinks he is smarter than the rest. One day he will never be heard from again....on here.

Regards, Mike


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## TORCH (Jan 7, 2012)

Mike thanks for the info.
I was unaware there were people on this site who take advantage of what this sit is all about in the first place. Good hearted people trying to exchange information to make us all smarter and informed. Why there is always people out there looking for self-gain with the wrong intent. The bottom feeders always ruin it for everyone else. Pretty sad!


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## Three44s (May 21, 2016)

I run Gandy applicators and Pioneer's Alfalfa inoculant, a dry product.

I see prices here on this thread running into $K's of money for a liquid applicator .............

............ I just bought five SP NH balers for $3,800 so the thought of spending several thousand for one applicator does not interest me ...... one of the sellers of those SP balers sold me my third Gandy just like new for $300 and he has a second I can buy for another $300.

Guess I better take him up on it?

Best regards

Three 44s


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