# Same Soil Sample: Two Results



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I admit I am not good at this fertilizer stuff, but cutting to the chase; I had a field that lost production by 1/3 from last year to this year. I suspect some of it may be winter kill but I am not sure. So I sent in a soil sample and got back two different results.The guy jotted down some hand written notes, bit confused me even more. I think he was trying to do me a favor and recommend a fertilizer type. Here is what was given

1st:

4000 lbs of lime per acre to get from 5.9 to 6.5 PH

0

60

210

2nd

No lime recommended

80

40

70

But for this one he jotted down :800 pounds of 10/10/10 fertilizer per acre.

*My question is, isn't this an awful lot of fertilizer (6 tons) for a 15 acre field?*

I know on other fields I have used different blends to get me closer with less tonnage. For instance this spring I used 2 tons of 05/13/41 for a 10 acre field, yet I cannot find it listed anywhere as a fertilizer combination, yet it is a common fertilizer for the Cranberry Growers.

Also, it was my understanding that lime really unlocks the roots of the sward so putting down fertilizer without lime first is almost a waste of money. I know 5.9 on PH is not that low, but I certainly don't want to buy 6 tons of fertilizer for nothing. Mill Lime is expensive here ($22.50 a ton), but I'll buy it if it helps fertilizer be effective. *So my second question is, should I buy 30 tons of lime? *If I do what they recommend I am looking at a $3200 bill for this 15 acre field! It seems excessive.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

By the way: I can get a seaweed product to act as a lime substitute at $1.90 a ton, BUT it has a lot of micro-nutrients in it already, and my soil is above optimum in copper, manganese and zinc so I would rather not add that to my soil. Copper can kill sheep at or above 4 ppm and I am at 1.18 ppm's now.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

We'll I'm confused, how do you get two different results from one sample? Did you send in split samples? I would be inclined to re sample. I typically use no more than 60#N per application but don't use 10-10-10just too much bulk. Usually apply 100-140#p&k depending on soil test results.

My point about bulk-if you applied 140#K as 10-10-10, it would require 1400#/acre


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

A lot of people buy blended fertilizer here, I've bought the components separately so the nitrogen timing works out better.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Hayman1: I hear you that was why I was confused. It was only one sample, the same field and I rechecked the sample number and it was the same test. The only difference is the first is labeled "Crop 102" and the second is labeled "Crop 104". In checking my paperwork it seems the first is clover-only field, and the second is mixed grass fields.

Still isn't 6 tons of fertilizer a lot to recommend?


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Ok so they gave two fertilization recommendations based on crop. The clover crop has a low nitrogen recommendation as expected. How long has it been since the fields have been fertilized?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

RuttedField said:


> 1st:
> 
> 4000 lbs of lime per acre to get from 5.9 to 6.5 PH
> 
> ...


First, 2 tons of lime per acre is about right when liming every 2-3 years in this area. I usually have to put on about 3 tons/acre every 4 years on my ground. Fertilizing without liming is basically wasting your money because the lime unlocks the soil's ability to manage the fertilizer.

Second (for 15 acre field):

The first recommendation is 60 + 210 = 270 lbs/acre = 4,050 lbs = 2 tons blended (clover takes a lot of potassium; needs no nitrogen).

The second recommendation is 80 + 40 + 70 = 190 lbs/acre = 2,850 lbs = 1.5 tons (mixed grasses need nitrogen, some potassium, some phosphorous depending on the mix and if it's being hayed or pastured.)

800 lbs/ac of 10-10-10 = 12,000 lbs = 6 tons. So, really what's going on is that 10-10-10 at 800 lbs/acre is the same as a custom blend of 70-70-70 (approximately the same as 80-40-70 blend) at 210 lbs/acre.

What's might be confusing you is the elemental factors, i.e., how much of each of the actual elements of NPK is in 1 lb of fertilizer.

In the 10-10-10, you get an even balance of NPK; in the 80-40-70 blend, you're getting more precisely each of what the soil needs.

For the second recommendation, mixed grasses, I usually go with about 100-70-250 for haying on my ground with a second N after the first cutting is done.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I'm getting a load of lime tomorrow morning $47 per ton spread per acre. I think you need to address the ph problem first .


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

slowzuki said:


> Ok so they gave two fertilization recommendations based on crop. The clover crop has a low nitrogen recommendation as expected. How long has it been since the fields have been fertilized?


2 years with liquid dairy cow manure which is why the micro-nutrients are off the chart.


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I happened to have an Agronomist come out yesterday. he is a friend all the way from PA, but just happened to be up and came to talk sheep, farming and Moldova Missions. He just happens to have an agronomist business in Gap PA so he looked at the field and we found what we believe the problem is...a lot of winter kill.

Last year due to the drought I needed hay desperately from second crop and so had it hayed in October, VERY late here in Maine, but a person has to do what a person has to do. That crop ended up all being stolen, but also left the grass very short. This is a North facing field on a hill with 10% alfalfa mix. Last winter we got no snow until February and deep cold before that, so with the wind blowing off what little snow we did get, and -20 below cold without snow, the alfalfa and clover took a hit.

He recommended I sow alfalfa back down now in hopes to get a thicker sward...over fertilizing and lime. What do the experts say (haytalkers)?


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## 2ndWindfarm (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm not an alfalfa grower, so... But, on the face of it - the recommendation from your Agronomist buddy seems reasonable.

Only question that I'd have would be concerning the higher N application and achieving a good establishment of the planted alfalfa. Would pushing the 90% grass species with the N depress the alfalfa seedlings?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

RuttedField said:


> I happened to have an Agronomist come out yesterday. he is a friend all the way from PA, but just happened to be up and came to talk sheep, farming and Moldova Missions. He just happens to have an agronomist business in Gap PA so he looked at the field and we found what we believe the problem is...a lot of winter kill.
> 
> Last year due to the drought I needed hay desperately from second crop and so had it hayed in October, VERY late here in Maine, but a person has to do what a person has to do. That crop ended up all being stolen, but also left the grass very short. This is a North facing field on a hill with 10% alfalfa mix. Last winter we got no snow until February and deep cold before that, so with the wind blowing off what little snow we did get, and -20 below cold without snow, the alfalfa and clover took a hit.
> 
> He recommended I sow alfalfa back down now in hopes to get a thicker sward...over fertilizing and lime. What do the experts say (haytalkers)?


If you had winter kill, then absolutely reseed. But if your soil test calls for nutrients, I'd think you'd want to do that too. Why is it one or the other?


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## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

Return on investment:

Lime=$830

Fertilizer=$2500

Seed=$250

Total cost=$3580

Loss of 33 bales at $40 a bale=$1320

I don't mind spending $1320 to get $1320 worth of hay, but it doesn't make sense to spend $3580 to get $1320 worth of hay. I am trying to figure out the best direction, or best combination, to get the most hay for the least amount spent.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

RuttedField said:


> Return on investment:
> 
> Lime=$830
> Fertilizer=$2500
> ...


Rut-I didn't look at this in detail but I have never seen rounds pay out with high fertilizer and lime use. Seed should be amortized over the life of the stand unless you are growing annual Timothy. I only have to lime every 3-4 years.


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