# Alfalfa Fertilizer



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I was driving back from Missouri yesterday and a thought occurred to me (dangerous activity: thinking and driving at the same time):

How do the potassium and phosphorous requirements of corn, beans and alfalfa compare financially?.....

So, I dug out the old agronomy handbook and my most recent fertilizer bill, and, assuming that the soil level is already OK:

Corn(@170 bu/ac: Potash-48 Lbs, DAP--73 Lbs
Beans(@ 60 bu/ac: Potash 91 Lbs, DAP--51 Lbs
[email protected] tons/ac: Potash 250 Lbs, DAP-- 60Lbs (Orchard grass takes about the same)

Then I looked at my most recent fertilizer bill: Potash @ $645/ton, DAP @ $695/ton.

Fertilizer input cost (not including nitrogen):
Corn------Lbs---Cost/ton--Cost/acre
Potash----48------645-------15.48
DAP-------73------695-------25.36
---------------------------------$40.84/ac

Beans-----Lbs---Cost/ton---Cost/acre
Potash-----91------645---------29.34
DAP--------51------695---------17.72
------------------------------------$47.07/ac

Hay--------Lbs--Cost/ton---Cost/acre
Potash----250-----645---------80.62
DAP---------60-----695---------20.85
----------------------------------$101.47/ac

I think the cattle may go bye-bye and more acres may come out of hay next year. I can no longer afford to support an economy and government that is all screwed up, waiting for it to come back to normal.

Ralph


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Well the scary part is if row crops stay up, you know the price of fertilizer will go up for no other reason can't actually let the farmer make too good a profit.

On all my hay ground as well might as add 2lbs active boron to the acre as well. Which hurts actually, we buy all our 6-15-40 in 25 ton increments (which is what a good dump trailer will haul) and I'll apply the majority of me fertilizer right after first cutting then straight potash in the fall with the boron added. Problem is since I'm not buying bulk, the fertilizer alone costs more even though demand is down somewhat then.

After getting my last settlement check from Cargill for my $14 beans, I really wonder why I'm even messing with hay.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Yes for now hay would not look all that attractive if I were not selling into a retail market.

Sixty years ago alfalfa hay paid a whole lot better than cotton.

For now managed grazing appears to be the better option. 
That will change too, someday.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

This is a great discussion topic for all of us in the hay business. Sustainability has to take a new course since we can't buy inputs based on a goverment subsidized corn farmers salary - sorry if I offended you that also grow cash grain crops but there is pleanty of truth in that statement. As for me, I have never been able to purchase that amount of fertilizer, just can't see that paying off and also never have enough cash flow at one time to purchase the tonnage I need. I use lots of manure and reduced rates of fertilizer. My yields do suffer alot but I also have a lot of acreage in what I call "un-improved" fields, these are low cost crops, mostly very old or volunteer crops on low rent acreage. There is a Wisconsin study that showed alfalfa only to be profitable I think it was 3 out of 5 years. Yields can be low with reduced inputs but still be profitable when you have a good retail market.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Guys, alfalfa is back in the picture. Dairy quality is bringing $275 to $325/ton here, junk is $150+. These fertilizer prices will compete with current cash corn and beans. The only problem is the labor and stress of alfalfa just SUCK.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

haybaler101 said:


> Guys, alfalfa is back in the picture. Dairy quality is bringing $275 to $325/ton here, junk is $150+. These fertilizer prices will compete with current cash corn and beans. The only problem is the labor and stress of alfalfa just SUCK.


_There_ it might be up, _here_ we have practically no horse market left so that extra hay floods the dairy market. Last I seen auction prices were still nothing to get excited about.

To top it all off the main horse customer I had (300 rd. bales a year) seems to have disappeared. Been almost 6 weeks since he last came to get hay, left messages on his phone, and at the stable, still haven't heard a word. My guess is his daughter flaked out and found hay for a fraction less than I've been charging. But until I hear otherwise I'm gonna sit on it a bit longer, even though I'm pretty sure I got shafted, I have been selling him hay for over 5 years now. When I get back from England next year I'll seriously look into getting it out of the building any way possible.

I'm going to start figuring in the actual labor per ton or per acre to make hay, has to be considerably higher than no-till rowcrops.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

My average labor cost is $19/ton averaged over several years.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hayray said:


> My average labor cost is $19/ton averaged over several years.


Hmm...took me all summer to cover 700 total acres of hay, took ten days to plant the same amount of corn.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Alfalfa growers cannot compare P and K (also







requirements with corn without also considering N. Alfalfa, as we all know, needs no N fertilizer as it gets its N supply from the air through Rhizobia in nodules on the plant roots. Corn needs commercial fertilizer N that may cost up to $.90/lb of N. Also, what about the lime (pH) requirement for corn, beans, and alfalfa.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

vhaby said:


> Alfalfa growers cannot compare P and K (also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely correct for alfalfa. Other types of hay, like orchard grass and timothy, require up to 120 lbs of N.

My original thought was how did P and K stack up across corn, beans, alfalfa and grasses? My concern is that P and K only come from two sources and that, with grain prices being what they are, the prices of P and K go so far out of sight that hay becomes an economically unfeasible crop?

The dilemma, which all of us are facing, is how to maximize our income over the next few years until the economy stabilizes. Hay production requires a longer term planning windows than row crops. If I were to plant alfalfa this year, I would want that field to last at least four years, given the time and expense that it takes to get the crop established and to get payback on that investment. Row crops, i.e., corn, beans, and wheat, can be more easily rotated and switched, even though they require a one year planning horizon.

In the st. Louis area, the horse market is hurting real bad. First, it's discretionary spending and many people's backs are against the wall just meeting basic needs. Second, bad weather and row crop market conditions have driven hay prices into the $6-8/sm sq bale range.

Also, the cattle hay market is driving many cattle producers to reduce the size of their herds significantly. The hay price is too high and cattle price, while somewhat better, is too low.

So, to make a long story short, I'm thinking of things I can do over the next 3-4 years until the economy either improves substantially or completely craps out with another depression. I'm already heavily invested in ammunition for the latter case.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Yea I've been wonderering what to do for next yr everyday while in combine.Field I did of corn yesterday did 201 bpa.Thanks to all the cattle manure it gets.So the cattle help me get good yields so don't realy want to get rid of them.

Returns off that field.
200 x 6.00=$1200

Expences.
Seed $41 (conventional corn)
Insecticde $12
Fert $170
Chem $28(applied)
Ins $6
Machinery $75(ripped$15,dug$15,planted$15,combined $30)

Total $332

$1200-$332=$868 Return for Land and living exp.

I sure wish all the farms were that good.LOL

Now with alfalfa to compete on same farm at 6 ton acre I would need ???

Figuring existing alfalfa so not figuring seed just fert and mach.

fert $150
mach$ $150
Ins 6

So $306 exp + $868 = $1174 divided by 6 ton I would need $195 per ton in rd bales to be comparable.

On the other hand beans were crap this yr for me.Mudded in,hailed on,drownded out,dried out in August,then froze early.

So what to do next yr???


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## jfleace (Jan 7, 2010)

Your statement on hay fertilizer cost is valid, but the calculations need to be adjusted. On your calculations above, I believe the removal is correct. However, on 0-0-60, it is only 60% K2O, which would mean that you would need to apply 416.7 lbs/acre of 0-0-60 to get an actual 250 lb/acre on the alfalfa. With the DAP 18-46-0, it is 46% P2O5, which would mean that you would need to apply 130 lb / acre. Does anyone else agree or disagree?


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

You guys with your beans and corn must have a whole lot more over-head to factor in your calculations, don't you? One thing, the hay producer needs a lot less over-head for production then the grain farmer?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hayray said:


> You guys with your beans and corn must have a whole lot more over-head to factor in your calculations, don't you? One thing, the hay producer needs a lot less over-head for production then the grain farmer?


Yes and no, all our grain bins are paid for as well as all of the row crop equipment while I still have a mower and baler payment. However the grain bins are all on the property tax rolls while my hay buildings (hoop barns) are tax exempt. I still need at the minimum to make hay _here_ a mower, tedder, rake and baler but since going to 100% no-till we are considering selling the 24' chisel plow, a 26' disc, the 25' field cultivator, both 27' packers and the 400hp four wheel drive tractor. Will keep the 15' 3 point chisel, a light 20' disc and a 16 foot wheeled harrow.

Will keep both fertilizer spreaders. For row crops now we only need the coulter cart to run over the corn stalks in the fall, do the burn down with a 60' boom at 10mph in the spring, spread the fertilizer and plant it.

Even with the burndown, spreading the fertilizer and planting, I know I have far less time involved in doing that than in one cutting of hay. On a good day Dad can cover over 200 acres when spraying, I can do the same spreading fertilizer, on a really good day I can get 150 acres of beans planted.

I just keep looking at the time factor in making hay. We recently lost a very close and dear friend and she was ten years younger than the wife or myself and when one starts thinking about how to spend the limited time we all have, hay ain't so great. When looking strictly at returns per acre only figuring in hard inputs $200/ton hay and row crops seem fairly even, but when I start thinking about all the stuff I wanted to get done this summer but didn't because I was making far more labor intensive, time consuming hay, then hay really starts to lose its luster compared to the ease of no-till row crops.

About the only thing I did get done this summer was to tear out the old overhead 60 amp service to the farm house and bury a new 200 amp service and install central A/C. Didn't get done the bathroom remodel (ain't about to tear out the throne in the dead of winter, only one bathroom in the house), or get the grain bins and all the pole barns painted as when I had decent weather to paint I was making hay.


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## dbergh (Jun 3, 2010)

A lot of good points in this thread and lots of market variation around the country as well.
In our area (Idaho) what i find happening is the input cost for row crops (Corn & Beets) has increased 2 fold at least and continues to be very high and yes there is a profit to be made but margins tend to be about what they have been for those crops. Just trading more dollars. In particular the cost for commercial fert. has gone way up in our area and shows no sign of easing anytime soon. Makes row crop less appealing to me. If a person has access to manure at a reasonable cost it is like black gold these days and makes the economics look quite a bit different for corn in particular!
Alfalfa market for us has been very strong for 4 out of the past 5 seasons and the horse hay market has been steadily growing year after year and provides a nice diversity in terms of crops and markets.
We are able to produce pretty good alfalfa and alfalfa grass blend yields with a minimal amount of fertilizer relative to the row crops. A little N for the grass component in the blend and none for the straight Alfalfa. A little Phos. for the Alfalfa if we can make it pencil but if not we can fore-go it for a season and still maintain pretty good productivity. Yes we do mine the nutrients a bit in those years and catching up can be painfully expensive down the road. We have phased out all of our straight grass fields due to the N requirements it has and the current cost of that input. Plus the fact that it usually sells at a slight discount. 
Sometimes we just have to look at a year by year scenario and go with what works the best at that point in time. Been that way for the 30 years I have been at this business. 
From a time management standpoint the hay is a hog! But I do enjoy the work and never get tired of putting up hay. I do however get a little sleepy once in a while during the season ; ) but it remains a very satisfying endeavor for me form a personal standpoint as well as providing solid returns to the bottom line.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

vhaby said:


> Alfalfa growers cannot compare P and K (also
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thru a corn/bean rotation and cover crops we've been able to cut back on actual N over the years and still increase yield. Seems I spent a lot more on some of our sandier ground keeping the PH up for alfalfa compared to row crops, but like you've pointed out, I have no N costs on the hay acres.

The biggest factor now seems to be whether you have a really strong hay market or not in your area. Ours doesn't appear so great this year and was horrible last year, so then row crops look real attractive.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

hayray said:


> You guys with your beans and corn must have a whole lot more over-head to factor in your calculations, don't you? One thing, the hay producer needs a lot less over-head for production then the grain farmer?


Not exactly. If you are set up for large scale hay production, you have just as much overhead as the row-crop guy on a lot less acres. 13' disc mower conditioner, 14 wheel rake, tedder, 3x3 baler, round baler, small square with accumulator, 3 loader tractors, drop deck semi trailer, goosenecks--got enough invested in this stuff to easily buy a late model combine and planter to run 4 times as many acres as could with the same stuff in hay.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

jfleace said:


> Your statement on hay fertilizer cost is valid, but the calculations need to be adjusted. On your calculations above, I believe the removal is correct. However, on 0-0-60, it is only 60% K2O, which would mean that you would need to apply 416.7 lbs/acre of 0-0-60 to get an actual 250 lb/acre on the alfalfa. With the DAP 18-46-0, it is 46% P2O5, which would mean that you would need to apply 130 lb / acre. Does anyone else agree or disagree?


I took the numbers from the agronomy text book and they listed them as actual, as opposed to elemental. So, it is 250 lbs of potash which, at 60%, is 150 lbs K.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Just looking at potash, alfalfa should be 2.20% K. though the irrigated California alfalfa is supposed to y ield well at 1.90% maybe even 1.70% K.

Say 2.00% K = 40 lbs K = 48 lbs K2O or 80 lbs MOP @ $700 = $28/T for potassium. 
Regardless if you actually pay that is what the value of potash is/ton of alfafla hay.

HERE with our summer drought I like my hay to test 2.4% K but really want 2.60% K.

You may be in a situation where there is a 1,000 year supply of potash, just as there is a 1,000 supply of calcium HERE.

We have come to believe alfalfa protein is for little or no cash out of pocket for us, but we forget that EPA has shut off our supply of free sulfur. Just as soon as the power companies learn that we NEED sulfur they will start selling electricity at cost and making all their profit from the calcium sulfate they sell the likes of us.

Now an old rule of thumb. 
A ton of hay equals 25 bu of corn. That means 200 bu corn should equal 8 T/A in income or feed value. Here if I yield 3.5 T/A alfalfa I should equal the income that an acre of corn pays, HERE.

In 1953 an acre of alfalfa would net more than an acre of cotton. Alfalfa yields, HERE, has not kept pace with cotton or corn. 
Here, I can sell alfalfa or bermudagrass hay retail and make more than the given price for cotton or corn will make. To beat hay the corn grower can sack his grain and sell it to the deer hunters for a tidy profit. As long as there are thousands of acres of corn and only 100 acres of alfalfa I am safe.


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

After reading this.....theres one thing NO ONE is factoring into your equations. **RISK***. Being more of a cattle/hay guy I may think alittle different then some of you row crop guys but no one is factoring in risk. Is a dirty little word that people like to shy away from when doing calculations. All of the math I see one here is great, in a perfect world. However, farming is never prefect and very unpredictable. There is way more risk in row crops then hay. I have dabbled in crops from time to time and had some good success. However, I will never live and die based on row crops. I am making almost the same amount of money per acre then the guys planting corn and beans. It may take more labor but my overhead is WAY less. Now if it doesnt start raining around here, we will all be in trouble regardless.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

So....the costs are:

Ground: Hereabouts, ground is going for $4,000/acre to as much as $10,000.

Property Taxes: Running about $10/acre, but can't really say for sure because bill includes buildings, etc.

Planting: The last field I planted cost me about $400/acre in lime, fertilizer, time, fuel, seed. Field life expectancy: 4 years (maybe more)

Storage: $18,000 for tarp building I put up last year depreciated over 15 years expected life = $1,200 per year

Equipment shed: $30,000 prorated over 20 years - $1,500/year.

Equipment: I sat down and figured that if I bought all new equipment (dream on!) for haying (3 tractors, disc mower, two rakes, round and sm square balers, bale wagon, sm bale baskets, trailer, cultimulcher, disc, ripper, sprayer, equipment shed, etc.), I would spend upwards of $300,000 -- depreciated over 7 years gives about $45,000 per year.

Annual Fertilizer: 250 Lbs potash, 70 lbs DAP, 120 lbs N: $150/acre/year.

Spraying chemicals (insecticide, weed killers, roundup),: $50/acre (SWAG - anybody's guess is welcome.)

Diesel fuel: 10 gals/acre/year (SWAG) @ $3.50.gal --$35/acre

Labor: Currently paying $10/hour for unskilled, $20/hour for tractor operator (who knows what they're doing!)

Supplies: Net wrap, twine, oil, grease, propionic acid, etc.:

My time: I value my time at $100/hour for decision making--600 hours haying = $60,000. (This is what the Hefty brothers on RFD-TV suggest-i like it!)

Then, add in the RISK factor: I figure for every 3 days a cutting goes past optimal cutting date, I'm losing 1% in crude protein. If I lose my first cutting, I'm out 50% of my production. 2nd cutting - 30%, 3rd/4th cutting - 20%.

I'm sure I'm missing things, but.....

*RESULT: I gotta be nuts! LOL
*

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

CockrellHillFarms said:


> After reading this.....theres one thing NO ONE is factoring into your equations. **RISK***. Being more of a cattle/hay guy I may think alittle different then some of you row crop guys but no one is factoring in risk. Is a dirty little word that people like to shy away from when doing calculations. All of the math I see one here is great, in a perfect world. However, farming is never prefect and very unpredictable. There is way more risk in row crops then hay. I have dabbled in crops from time to time and had some good success. However, I will never live and die based on row crops. I am making almost the same amount of money per acre then the guys planting corn and beans. It may take more labor but my overhead is WAY less. Now if it doesnt start raining around here, we will all be in trouble regardless.


I disagree.

I can insure either crop but corn and bean insurance is a much better coverage.Only insured for tons on hay,not quality..Insured for yield and quality on grain.

Typicaly not much risk selling grain to elevator vs getting a bad check from someone.

And marketing.Alot more options marketing grain.Contracting at elevator,hedging with futures,and Puts.Also the crop insurance tied to futures prices.You can also reown your crop on paper just by calling a broker.

Taking corn out yesterday off poorest farm we farm and selling on spot market @ $6.20 X 170=$1054 an acre.Hay can't compete with that here at current prices.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> My time: I value my time at $100/hour for decision making--600 hours haying = $60,000. (This is what the Hefty brothers on RFD-TV suggest-i like it!)
> 
> Ralph


Thought that was high at first until I figure I get $85 for lathe work when I have time to take side jobs. I bought a Bridgeport and once I get it squared away and a little larger selection of end mills on hand I may cut back on the hay just to have more time for more side jobs. I figure I can mow at least 10 acres/hour with my 13' foot discbine and around here the going rate is around $12.50/acre for mowing, so I'm making at least $125/hour custom mowing for other people but I also have fuel and wear and tear on the tractor and mower. With the lathe and Bridgeport I'll have em both hooked to the 3 phase so electric is cheap, I also do most of my own tool sharpening as well so that's not a big factor.



swmnhay said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I can insure either crop but corn and bean insurance is a much better coverage.Only insured for tons on hay,not quality..Insured for yield and quality on grain.
> 
> ...


I agree as well, with the newer hybrids you're almost always guaranteed a crop. With no-till our costs are way down compared to when we chiseled, soil finished, then planted.

If a person knows their crop insurance income can about be guaranteed. Add in futures, premium contracts and the like income can also be guaranteed years ahead.

Never had a bad check from the elevator, also never had a elevator call me and tell me they've found corn/beans elsewhere and don't want mine unlike the call I just got from a stable yesterday telling me they don't want the other 250 round bales I've been sitting on for them since June.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> So....the costs are:
> 
> Ground: Hereabouts, ground is going for $4,000/acre to as much as $10,000.HERE Land cost are roughly half yours, but corn yields are also half yours. In the good old days you could pay for a farm with your crops, now we need some outside money.
> 
> ...


Something that I do is pay *$385 *for a weather forecasting service. I use about 15 minutes a day recording the data into a spread sheet. Probably another 15 minutes reading their tea leaves. On average I have a hay rained on about one time in three years. *Just as important if not more important is to not miss an oportunity to harvest.* 
In March, April, & May I do not have more than 2 fields laying on the ground at any one time. June and July I limit it to three fields on the ground. Early in the season I bale on the 4 th day some times the 5 th day. In the drier months I usualy bale on the third day.

I expect to cut the first fields in early bud stage for full power dairy quality, what we call rabbit hay. 
The last field cut for the first time will be at least half bloom. This or later is horse hay.

I agree on your thinking about the loss of protein with age. The thing to remember is yield at the same time is increasing. 
Our friends in California have developed the trade off of quality for yield down to a science. 
Being HERE and subject to random rain events pretty well have to take the quality as it comes.

I charge less than the feed store prices but more than the price of out of area hay, sold in truck load lots.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Something that I do is pay *$385 *for a weather forecasting service. I use about 15 minutes a day recording the data into a spread sheet. Probably another 15 minutes reading their tea leaves. On average I have a hay rained on about one time in three years. *Just as important if not more important is to not miss an oportunity to harvest.*


Tried a free trial period with AWIS this summer, good thing it was free as it wasn't any better than the free forecasts I get off the internet and from the TV. Didn't mow a few times as they called for rain, it didn't. Got some other hay rained on after baling because unlike 3+ clear days they were calling for, I only got two. The Great Lakes just mess with us too much or something for any forecast no matter the source to be very accurate anymore.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> Never had a bad check from the elevator, also never had a elevator call me and tell me they've found corn/beans elsewhere and don't want mine unlike the call I just got from a stable yesterday telling me they don't want the other 250 round bales I've been sitting on for them since June.


Or like the guy that was buying a 1000 bales a yr and told me not to plow it up.And if I was going to he would like a yr notice so he could seed some.I got 2 weeks notice when he switched his ration to feeding straw instead.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> Tried a free trial period with AWIS this summer, good thing it was free as it wasn't any better than the free forecasts I get off the internet and from the TV. Didn't mow a few times as they called for rain, it didn't. Got some other hay rained on after baling because unlike 3+ clear days they were calling for, I only got two. The Great Lakes just mess with us too much or something for any forecast no matter the source to be very accurate anymore.


Yep everyone wants a fee for stuff that can be found for free.Weather services and marketing people.Are the top 2 I wouldn't pay for,lol.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> Yep everyone wants a fee for stuff that can be found for free.Weather services and marketing people.Are the top 2 I wouldn't pay for,lol.


More or less true. Thing is I now get a first look at the weather at 5:15 AM. The noaa information is available closer to noon.

It does require some effort on my part to boot. I record everything to a spread sheet including the 6-10 day and 8-14 day forecast and adust for the historical data.

Regardless they all report what is there at the time and forecast on historical data. I have 22 years of good local data to help. 
You make your moves knowing that it seldom rains during a drought and usually rains during a wet year. 
AWIS Karl Harkin started baling hay in Indiana as a teenager. Now he is VP of Sales and Development or something along those lines.

It's dark out time for bed.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I checked out AWIS a few years back and it seemed that they did a good job for the SE US, but not much for the Midwest. I use weather.com 10-day and the NOAA 7 day along with the weather.com maps.

Last weekend, weather.com starting calling for rain to start early Monday afternoon about Wednesday. By Friday, they were calling for rain to start about 1:00 PM Monday. It actually started about 1:30--I don't know how they could have so wrong!

Ralph


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I think a field needs to be in for alot more then 4 years to make it pay unless you are rotating and getting N credits. Most haying equipment needs to last alot longer then 7 years for profitablility.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

hayray said:


> I think a field needs to be in for alot more then 4 years to make it pay unless you are rotating and getting N credits. Most haying equipment needs to last alot longer then 7 years for profitablility.


Alfalfa stands tend to thin and stems get courser after 4 years. Your profitability will decrease dramatically after 4 years, time to rotate, take the N and come back the next year with a new stand. Years 2 and 3 are the most profitable and if you haven't recouped seeding cost and are not making money by then, you need a different manager or crop. If you are running enough acres to afford hay equipment, figure 4 to 5 years max on equipment, when my acres are up, I trade every 3 to 4 years. Never depreciate equipment more than 5 years, buildings more than 15 because there are some other nasty expenses that really creep in after this point--REPAIRS


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I figure depreciation this way: taking the expected life of a field/equipment/building AS ALLOWED BY THE IRS, gives me a basis for calculating an annual cost. Anything beyond that is gravy, which means that I am essentially getting it for free. Accelerating depreciation allows me to reduce my taxes which is "free money". That money can then be rolled over into new equipment and facilities.

After all, if it's legal for the big boys to take advantage legally of the tax system, then I can do the same! I don't care what the rules are, just tell me what they are--then I will be able to figure out how to beat them!

Ralph


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## Blue Duck (Jun 4, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> I don't care what the rules are, just tell me what they are--then I will be able to figure out how to beat them!
> 
> Ralph


I think haytalk needs a "LIKE" button.


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## sedurbin (May 30, 2009)

I'll just use the old standby +1


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