# First Big Square Baler



## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

Hi, I'm new the the forum. I'm a commercial hay producer in Western NC and am looking at going to a big baler for this coming year. I currently bale with a John Deere 468 and also rebale with my cousin's Massey inline baler. We are baling around 35-40 thousand small squares a year. There are zero big balers in our region and we have no knowledge on them. I'm on a budget for a baler and tractor of around 95k, so what's the best setup for that money? And how many bales are to many for a big baler? We have some hills and I'm looking at going with a 3x3 baler and 150hp tractor. Thinking about a hesston 4760 baler. But I've seen some krone machines for 55-60k advertised, ate they worth it with 40k bales on them? I'm a young producer(25 yr old) and need to make a very sound purchase. I don't have the money to screw this up. Thanks, any help would be appreciated.


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Go with a Massey/Hesston and save yourself some heartache. Going to be a steep learning curve from what you're doing right now no matter which brand you choose. Also, make sure your customers want the 3x3's, a lot want the 3x4/4x4 if they're going to buy a big square.

Oh, and welcome to Haytalk. I'm also a young producer, (20)


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

BeamFarms said:


> Hi, I'm new the the forum. I'm a commercial hay producer in Western NC and am looking at going to a big baler for this coming year. I currently bale with a John Deere 468 and also rebale with my cousin's Massey inline baler. We are baling around 35-40 thousand small squares a year. There are zero big balers in our region and we have no knowledge on them. I'm on a budget for a baler and tractor of around 95k, so what's the best setup for that money? And how many bales are to many for a big baler? We have some hills and I'm looking at going with a 3x3 baler and 150hp tractor. Thinking about a hesston 4760 baler. But I've seen some krone machines for 55-60k advertised, ate they worth it with 40k bales on them? I'm a young producer(25 yr old) and need to make a very sound purchase. I don't have the money to screw this up. Thanks, any help would be appreciated.


McDonald Family Farms has given you good advice, I don't have a big baler, but looked into it and I decided to stay with small sq, but others who have gone to Krone have said that it's a very good baler only very expensive in upkeep and this when new, many of them mostly commercial hay makers have gone back to the MF/Hesston for that reason , one fellow in Colorado had 3 of them and was spending over $30K yearly on all of them, he said never had those expenses on MF/Hesston. Krone is also heavier and will require more hp = more $. Each has his own decision to make for if you have no MF?Hesston dealer nearby, but do have Krone then Krone may be the better solution for you.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

going to be hard to get a 150 hp tractor and baler for 95K, so that means used and no balers in your area means not much support. Both make this a problem if you really do this. The other question is can you sell them or are you going to have to re bale to sell. If you are selling 40k sm squares why not buy another sm square baler and accumulator and invest less money overall and save the rebaling? my 2 cents I am old (57) and cheap. We (3) put up 22000 sm squares with one baler and accumulator and 2 of us work full time. We also put up 250 4 X 5 round bales. good luck and welcome to hay talk

P.S a new Kuhn 1036F 10 bale flat accumulator $11500 and grapples are $3900 each and a new sm square baler would be 25k to 35k. Still leaves money to buy a tractor and loader if you really need it.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm not a big baler guy but for general advice I'd suggest to devote as much of your budget as possible to the baler and grab a cheap/cheapish tractor that will do the job or even rent the tractor for a year or two if feasible.

Also, lots of haytalk members with big balers, both those in areas where they are common and where they are not, are getting parts and support from Maize Corp for their Massey/Hesstons so if you are not expecting expertise from your local dealer, AGCO and Maize may be the way to go.


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

I run all 4x4x8 balers , if you are looking I suggest you look in the areas where the big balers are popular for the best selection imO No way could a 3x3 work in these parts. A guy can find some very good buys right now on big balers,Far as bale count on a baler , was it taken in each winter and gone through ? I know of several 4x4's that have 50 -70k on them . If you ever need any names and numbers let me know. btw you can find what you want with that much , I dont mind pulling a 80k baler with a 20k tractor long it has ac and plenty of hp


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

8350HiTech said:


> I'm not a big baler guy but for general advice I'd suggest to devote as much of your budget as possible to the baler and grab a cheap/cheapish tractor that will do the job or even rent the tractor for a year or two if feasible.
> 
> Also, lots of haytalk members with big balers, both those in areas where they are common and where they are not, are getting parts and support from Maize Corp for their Massey/Hesstons so if you are not expecting expertise from your local dealer, AGCO and Maize may be the way to go.





8350HiTech said:


> I'm not a big baler guy but for general advice I'd suggest to devote as much of your budget as possible to the baler and grab a cheap/cheapish tractor that will do the job or even rent the tractor for a year or two if feasible.
> 
> Also, lots of haytalk members with big balers, both those in areas where they are common and where they are not, are getting parts and support from Maize Corp for their Massey/Hesstons so if you are not expecting expertise from your local dealer, AGCO and Maize may be the way to go.


There are a few big baler dealers in the USA that are top shelf when it comes to sales an service . I use a couple that show up each winter to go through my balers and after that if I ever have problems they can get me going by phone. Maize corp is very good , lot of knowledge . With proper care I hardly ever have any down time during bailing , they do lots of tons between issues , now that said I have to finish up some hay I hope I did not jinx myself .....................


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## Waldo (Apr 29, 2016)

Go with the heston massey,the 3x3 and 8xcompared to the other brands are simple and easy to operate .this is coming from someone who has owed 6 newholland,big squares.mf 185 or 187 baler I have seen them with 65,000 bales plus.private buys if you go that way you can have a look at the bales made,and hopefully see how it runs,also if you look at the other gear the seller runs you can see who they look after their machinery.what I have seen with the older balers they had less electrical/ computer problems. Waldo


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Welcome to the forum Beam....why do you want a big square? Rebaling?


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

Thanks for all the input! We have a client that purchases 10+/- tons of hay per week and we feed it for them as well(14 hay bunks in a 30 pen cattle shipping and preconditioning operation. We currently rebale our rolls into squares so that we can put a "dense" product in the feeders so that we don't have to feed 2 times per week. Barn is usually full of cattle duri g the week and the feeders need to maintain themselves until Friday. We cannot get enough hay baled in one day with a small baler to justify it. We are in a climate with narrow windows for haying, so time is our most limiting fact


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

Factor. We will continue to rebale some for our horse clients, however some of them will go to the big bales as long as we make a 3x3 bale. Your correct that we have no support and no dealers around here. If anyone has a dealer they highly recommend to help a you guy get started please share. I'm speaking with a dealer in Emmaus, PA and D&J sales out of Ohio currently.


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

So is the 4760 a good choice or should I seriously look at a 2150?


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## Circle MC Farms LLC (Jul 22, 2011)

Bit of a drive but here's a really nice 4760 that would help with your budget, still leaves you with about 45k for a tractor. It requires at least 100 PTO HP, most likely are going to want more than that, especially as heavy as these things are.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listings/farm-equipment/for-sale/10066665/2007-hesston-4760


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## Maxzillian (Sep 11, 2014)

BeamFarms said:


> So is the 4760 a good choice or should I seriously look at a 2150?


 A 4760 is not a bad baler at all and arguably handles silage better than a 2150; although AGCO did get the 2150 to handle silage much better after the first few years of production. In dry hay the 2150 will out-bale the 4760 just due to running 47 strokes per minute instead of 41, but the 4760 won't need as much horsepower thanks to that extra reduction. Even then, the difference between 41 to 47 is pretty small in the grand scheme. Both share the same knotter heads so there's no difference there with exception to the blower design.

If you do go for a 4760, be sure to shop for one with the Fieldstar monitor or one that has been upgraded to ISOBUS. The older units that used the wide rectangular box with twin LCD displays are getting long in the tooth and replacements are hard to come by. Even the Fieldstar is known to have touch-screen failures and parts are no longer available to repair them, but they can at least be upgraded to ISOBUS without much trouble.

Also be sure to inspect the packer crank as the fingers ride on bushings. The bushings can be replaced, but the crank they ride on is a welded assembly and can not be rebuilt; only replaced. Also take a look at the spherical bushings on the stuffer arms and make sure they don't need to be replaced before taking it to the field. You'll also want to adjust the stuffer and knotter brakes as allowing them to run too tight or too loose can lead to excessive wear on the clutches.

Otherwise they're simple machines. The chain drives have a good service life as long as they're not oiled with something like wd-40 or another penetrating lubricant and Maize Corp has a lot of service parts available, including repair pieces for the frame.


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## PaCustomBaler (Nov 29, 2010)

8350HiTech said:


> I'm not a big baler guy but for general advice I'd suggest to devote as much of your budget as possible to the baler and grab a cheap/cheapish tractor that will do the job or even rent the tractor for a year or two if feasible.
> 
> Also, lots of haytalk members with big balers, both those in areas where they are common and where they are not, are getting parts and support from Maize Corp for their Massey/Hesstons so if you are not expecting expertise from your local dealer, AGCO and Maize may be the way to go.


Beam, I'd heed Nathan's advice here. We jumped into the big baler game last year with a Hesston 3x3 baler. It's much tougher to market the 3x3 bales and don't expect to get anywhere of a comparable price to them as small bales. We still produce a large amount of small bales however.

Just do your research like anything and use factual numbers to justify your purchase. I know of some producers in your state producing 75k bales a year without the use of a large square baler.

4760 is a solid baler and most are reasonably priced. Our is a 4755 and we love it. My father-in-law also has a 4755 with over 70k bales on it, ours has over 50k bales on it. Still punches hay out at a good speed with great bale shape.

Feel free to message me if you need any help with doing your figures.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 29, 2016)

First of all, how high, are your feeders, your throwing hay, into? If they are high, you sure don't want to be throwing Flakes, from a 3 X 3, or a 4 X 4 bale, into the feeder. Did that here, last Spring, when I ran out of Hay, for my horses, and bought a couple Big Squares, from a neighbor. Wrestling with those flakes, put me in mind of trying to do a Waltz, with an Old Sow (pig). 
If it was me, I'd get at least one more Small Square Baler, and a good acumilateor, or self loading wagon. 2, or 3, small square balers, can gobble up, a lot of hay, in a day, and a good operator can gather up, a lot of bales, in a day. End result, a lot less work, trying to fill, your feeders, or trying to rebale round bales, into small square bales, to feed with.


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

They are around 7-8'. We use a flat bed truck to move hay through the barn, works well. Pitchfork the big flakes in or throw the small bales in.


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## Bruce Hopf (Jun 29, 2016)

Those big flakes, are a lot of work,,even with a pitch fork, I fed 2 bales, over a couple of months, to my horses, into a round bake feeder, wish I had rebaled them, into small squares, as it was a bit of a struggle, handling those flakes. 
If I had feeders, like what you have shown, I'd stick, to the small squares, and buy a couple more balers, instead of wishing, you would have, in the long run. 
I had bought big squares, in the past, put them in front of my small square baler, and punched them through it, made life, a whole lot easier, in the long run. Just my opinion, though.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hey that is one friendly looking farm hand. Look at that friendly smile!!
You're lucky if you get to work with her!

The system you are using seems to be fine.
Stick with it if it works. Small squares are easier to sell and sell for a lot more per ton


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

3x3 flakes are easy to fork.


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

Alot of 3x3 in southern wisconsin. You can pick up 1 or 2 bales at a time with a skid steer depending on size. We feed flakes to the horses and whole bales to the beef cows just have to adapt. This summer I had a field raked 3 9ft rows together and with the neighbors big square I was baling at 6MPH I broke a knotter with one row to go and baled the last row with a jd336 and 1st gear it had its hand full thats how much more capacity you have with a big square baler. Around here its hard to find alot of people that will pay that much of a premium to make it worth the extra work to make small squares, although we will bale a few loads just to have for our own convenience sometime and to sell just a few. Its so easy to quick load a small load and head to the auction with big squares.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

With the unfortunate drought down south, I believe it will be very easy to empty the barn of small squares the rest of this year and early next year.


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## BeamFarms (Sep 25, 2016)

When you have limited labor so sometimes it seems to be best to invest in equipment than try to count on more help to run smaller Equipment. However to answer some questions, the only baler I own is a JD 468. I pay my cousin to rebale them into squares for me. Every year I buy 7-8 loads of 3x4 bales to get us through and we get along great with them. Its actually just as easy as using the small bales. Less strings to cut, less cuts on your hands, jeans last longer and we can get more vume in the feeders with them. We will be putting a raised platform on that truck this fall to make it even easier.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

danwi said:


> Alot of 3x3 in southern wisconsin. You can pick up 1 or 2 bales at a time with a skid steer depending on size. We feed flakes to the horses and whole bales to the beef cows just have to adapt. This summer I had a field raked 3 9ft rows together and with the neighbors big square I was baling at 6MPH I broke a knotter with one row to go and baled the last row with a jd336 and 1st gear it had its hand full thats how much more capacity you have with a big square baler. Around here its hard to find alot of people that will pay that much of a premium to make it worth the extra work to make small squares, although we will bale a few loads just to have for our own convenience sometime and to sell just a few. Its so easy to quick load a small load and head to the auction with big squares.


If starting with small bales I wouldn't consider anything but an inline baler though slower than a big one not as much as the zig zags. One has to be very careful in calculating cost due to the additional hp required, each situation is different, but one thing is sure big sq are more convenient, though I still distrust all the electronics


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Must be a regional thing, 3x3 is what most everybody is running here, usually nobody wants the 4x4's at auction. Of course a lot of amish with smaller or older skid steers that couldn't handle a 4x4 square bale.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Trillium Farm said:


> If starting with small bales I wouldn't consider anything but an inline baler though slower than a big one not as much as the zig zags. One has to be very careful in calculating cost due to the additional hp required, each situation is different, but one thing is sure big sq are more convenient, *though I still distrust all the electronics*


Some big square are capable of running with out the electronics. Its inconvenient but works. The NH D1000 can do that anyway.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Our intention is to sell to the dairy's, and according to one of the hay brokers we talked to last year said that the dairy's he sold to wanted 3x4, or 4x4. They did not like the 3x3. I think that is because the guy's doing the unloading would stick the spears thru to the next bale tare it all to hell, and he also said that they way they stacked them, they would fall over. Although I can't see why they would stack any worse then the others. Maybe it just the quality of the help; you pay for cheap labor, you get cheap labor.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Gearclash said:


> Some big square are capable of running with out the electronics. Its inconvenient but works. The NH D1000 can do that anyway.


Good to know, but I thought the NH D1000 had a lot of mechanical problems, what do you know about that?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Trillium Farm said:


> Good to know, but I thought the NH D1000 had a lot of mechanical problems, what do you know about that?


Pretty sure he'd know about any problems, he's got one....


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Trillium Farm said:


> Good to know, but I thought the NH D1000 had a lot of mechanical problems, what do you know about that?


What do you want to know? I've run one since '99, put about 32,000 bales on it so far. Do all the wrenching on it also. Knotters are kinda touchy and the knotter clutch has to be kept in near perfect shape. Not much else gives chronic problems really. The #120 plunger chain tensioner was somewhat poorly designed.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

CowboyRam said:


> Our intention is to sell to the dairy's, and according to one of the hay brokers we talked to last year said that the dairy's he sold to wanted 3x4, or 4x4. They did not like the 3x3. I think that is because the guy's doing the unloading would stick the spears thru to the next bale tare it all to hell, and he also said that they way they stacked them, they would fall over. Although I can't see why they would stack any worse then the others. Maybe it just the quality of the help; you pay for cheap labor, you get cheap labor.


3x4s stack onto trucks a lot easier then 3x3s. Not nearly as tipsy. Neither are 4x4s.


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## Anthony (Oct 15, 2010)

Kuhn has a New LSB 870 2x3 that should be in the $70-80,000 range brand new with warranty. They also have a new double knotter 3x3 and 3x4 models as well.


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