# marriage counseling needed, wife wants organic, I want decent yields.



## samprint (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi Gang,

Hoping you can help shed some light on the whole Organic good, Monsanto Bad mindset the wife is set on. She is an amazing, rational, intelligent woman in all other aspects, but for this one area of her thinking . I admit I am on the other end of the spectrum, I keep a small bottle of %90 deet tucked away in the shed for my own use after she has puffed me with OFF Skintastic. We have a 50 acre farmette raising hay with so so equipment, have failed miserably 3 years in a row with the garden, we both work full time, have two small children and barely enough time to peruse one these interests, we both love all of these things. I am willing to have a garden that fails for the next 60 years if that is the price that must be paid for happy wife. That being said I think with proper use and managment of herbicides and persicides we could have the best of both worlds. I know I may sound young and naive but I am hopeful.

So do any of you have advice or resources to point me towards to share with the wife about such things as what round up really is, 2/4D, 10-10-10, what nitrogen is. I tried googling to find objective information and it seems the treehuggers have more spare time than I do to sort through their vinger and dish soap recipes. I asked our extension agent and he just laughed at me. They farmer who did my fertilizing this spring suggested a don't ask don't tell policy. She does like to read so maybe you all know of a book that has be written that puts all this into perspective.

Attached is photo of the cream of last years sweet corn crop, 100% organic unmolested by pesticides.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yup, some malathion or Sevin would have made that sweet corn a hell of a lot prettier eh? Try Neem oil next time if the wife absolutely insists on organic.

I have a friend who has milked cows his entire life. Used antibiotics and weed killers as required before, but has been a organic dairy now for 10 or 12 years, his take on the entire organic thing these days is it's bullshit. Better than half the rules he has to follow make absolutely no real sense and seem to have no reason other than that's what the un-informed consumer wants. He sticks with it as it does pay slightly better and it makes the wife who I think he is slightly afraid of happy.

The world would be a very hungry place if all of a sudden everything had to be grown organically, I'd take early retirement before I'd go back to working ground, cultivating corn as many times as we could before it got too tall and lord only knows how many passes thru the bean fields with a cultivator just to end up harvesting half as much and fighting grass in both crops. Even with chemical use I have to stay ahead of the weeds as it seems every field we have one neighbor or another lets their weeds goto seed then the wind or wildlife spread em thru my fields.

A few articles you could show the wife:

http://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/features/myths-organic-food

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-study-shows-its-a-myth-that-organic-foods-are-healthier-2012-9

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/2011/07/18/mythbusting-101-organic-farming-conventional-agriculture/

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-great-organic-myths-why-organic-foods-are-an-indulgence-the-world-cant-afford-818585.html

Good luck, I don't know how long you've been married, but I've been married just long enough to realize far as females of any species go, the boobs can make em goofy.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Round-up Ready Sweet Corn is now available  . You need to tell your wife that she has been eating RR corn and soybean for years if she consumes products from the grocery.....or restaurants.

Regards, Mike


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

Samprint, I'm not looking to get into a pissing match with others who may not agree with the merits of farming organically. There are more than one way to farm and every one of them has its trade offs. We operate a small operation like yours and have always practiced organic principles. Yes, sweet corn is a major challenge but the vast majority of our diversified crops are comparable to conventionaly raised in yield and appearance. Additionally, we have the peace of mind that comes from knowing our water, soils and plants are healthy and toxin free. Organic farming requires more labor and that is a significant issue if you are both working full time off the farm. It can take years to figure out what works best for your location and situation and I don't know of any shortcuts. There is plenty of information out there but you will not find it at your local ag extension or fertilizer salesman. (I did some pasture renovation work for a customer once who wanted only organic and insisted that I use best management practices published by our local extension service. Well the BMP called for clearing the old growth with Round Up or other herbicide so you can see that the two practices aren't always compatible). Sometimes you have to compromise and maybe your wife can accept a transition strategy where you only use spray as a last resort rather than the starting point. Check with your local organic organization for suggestions. Up here we have MOFGA, the Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association, that has a good website and links to other helpful sites. I don't do marriage counselling but I've been married to the same woman for 31 years and know the importance of compromise. Best wishes for you and the farmette.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

First of all I am not married so I can't help you with that part. When it comes to my farm I do what I need to do to make money. I use regular fertilize and I don't quite understand what is wrong with that as nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium are natural elements. Yes you could use manure instead but it would take a whole lotta manure to equal the amount of regular fertilize I use. I also spray when necessary to prevent me from losing a crop. I do not enjoy spraying at all so I do not do it more than I have to. If I did not spray weeds would take over and I would lose money. When it comes to the garden that I grow for my family and friends I also use plenty of fertilize to ensure a healthy crop and to replace the nutrients from the soil the crop uses. As far as spraying the garden since I do not enjoy spraying I do not spray the garden unless I see the insects are going to severely damage my yield. I always plant more than I need anyways. The past two years I have not had to spray the garden with the exeption of some dipel dust on the cabbage which is a "natural product". Yes I do have some bug damage but its not so much that I can't live with it. I normally have to cut the tip of about half the sweet corn because of bug damage but when you have a large healthy ear of corn your losing next to nothing. I think that if you fertilize and have healthy plants that unless you have a severe infestation of insects you normally won't have to spray and plant some extra so if you lose a plant or two it's not a big deal. Part of the problem with your corn looks like poor pollination. Corn needs to be planted in blocks not long single rows to ensure good pollination. As far as the organic vs. Monsanto, just because it is not organic does not mean that it has anything to do with Monsanto. Monsanto is just one seed company, if you do not like them use a different source for seeds. I have had a lot of people that want to buy my produce ask if it is organic and I tell them technically no since i use regular fertilize but it is about as close as you can get. I do not have anything against organic farming But I feel that anything bigger than a garden or a few acre field will be very difficult and labor intensive to truly do organic and still be able to make money. I tip my hat to any of you that are doing so. Also as vol said any corn or soy products you get at the store or restaurant are probably GMO products.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Without Monsanto and others we will starve ourselves to death......that's how to tell the wifey, you can possibly sustain yourself, but there is no way in the coming 50 years without GM crops.... Thankfully there are companies like Monsanto working on the problem....I don't like spraying pesticides, but I have to, or let the pests take all of the profits. Hard to reason with those who believe in organic gardening, the best way is to see the fruit on the table, and a return on your investment in both time and $... My.o2


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## R Ball (Feb 26, 2013)

Our ferrier is a preacher and this was his thought on a couple things.

A man dosen't need a horse that will hurt him or a nagging wife. Life is just to short.

The man just told us that last time he was there. Found it interesting since he is a preacher.
He is married and wasn't saying he dosen't like marriage. Just saying life is to short to be unhappy.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm no hippy, but I'm not a fan of unneeded chemical use. Most any fertilizer is pretty simple stuff, nothing more than some salts or acids, doesn't bother me a bit. Roundup isn't a whole lot more complicated chemically than many soaps. Some organic folks for get the vinegar they use sounds a lot more dangerous as acetic acid but is the same thing.

The first things that get my concern are some of the herbicides with residuals, if it doesn't break down outside under sun, rain, organic soil etc, its likely going to stick around in the food chain too.

The second thing that gets my concern are pesticides. In some form or another, we share chemical pathways with insects. Almost anything that messes with an insect will mess with our health too. I use them but with extra caution and only when there is a problem. Many times insect problems here will look after themselves as other insects will eat the ones I was concerned about. Spraying can often kill off the predator (larger) insects easier than the target insect due to concentration of chemicals in the food chain etc.

Most farmers don't want to overspray anyways due to cost but there can be a lot of ignorance in application rates and mixing etc. Helping conventional farmers better manage chemical use rather than screaming at them that they are killing everyone would probably be more productive. On the same note, conventional farmers could probably learn a thing or two from organic farmers, I know I've been watching the no-till through rolled rye cover crop pretty closely. Seems like it could be applicable at a large scale.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Folks that insist on "organic" are living in an idealistic dream world that doesn't come close to reality. Having spent much of my life in the chemical industry, I readily admit I don't want to eat chemicals. They are however, often much more efficient and cost effective than trying to do things "au naturel". Organic is NOT completely without chemicals here's the approved ones:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/ams.fetchTemplateData.do?template=TemplateJ&leftNav=NationalOrganicProgram&page=NOPNationalList&description=National%20List%20of%20Allowed%20and%20Prohibited%20Substances&acct=nopgeninfo

Nevertheless, if you want to pay extra for your food, the U.S. Government will help you do so. Violators of the organic certification rules can be fined up to $10,000 per violation. But organic "certification," no matter what the rules, will not protect consumers. Foods certified as "organic" will neither be safer nor more nutritious than "regular" foods. Nor is there any logical reason to conclude that they have any special disease-curing properties. They will just cost more and may lessen public confidence in the safety of "ordinary" foods.

Ordinary foods along with "organic" foods both have added attractions that could likely be removed by the application of chemicals. I've seen studies that show that ordinary foods are actually cleaner for that very reason. Here's an example of the organic content allowed by the FDA.....after cleaning:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29133/how-much-rodent-filth-does-fda-allow

Welcome your wife to the real world.....remember, it's all protein.


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

You should have access to cheap chicken poop in your area. Have you ever seen what that does to a hay field? And its organic.

I have clients on both sides of the organic spectrum, we are finally getting organic farmers who farm on real scale around here, not just a hippy with a straw hat and a rototiller. Corn and apples are one product that organic guys have a hard time selling because of the bug issues.

I could certify my fields just cause I"m too cheap to use real commercial fertilizer and there aren't commercial spray guys around here. But conversely I don't have a market for organic hay. The organic dairy guys all raise their own.

The real organic ripoff to me is organic maple syrup. The certification process is long and PIA, but the product is identical other than a price.


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## samprint (Feb 28, 2012)

thanks for all of the feedback, nice to hear rational perspective from both sides. I admit I was severely shell shocked as result of trauma I recently suffered at an earth save rally my unemployed, vegan sister in law guilted the family into attending on her birthday. It was even more than my wife could get her mind around. The experience had a polarizing effect on me it was so bias that my reaction was to close my mind anything organic. Moving forward I can be more open to both schools of thought. One the main factors that I have to contend with is time, as was mentioned earlier it takes time to maintain keep crops in good order and while I don't enjoy resorting to "girls scout" fluid to get the fire started sometimes it is necessary to get things started. last year I used a lot of round up to clean up fence rows, this year I found I only need to touch up a few spots with 2 4 d to maintain what was done last year. Also as was mentioned in one of the posts knowing how to plant things has a huge effect on a crop. This year I read the directions on the back of bag of corn and it said to plant corn in multiple rows for pollination to take effect. All the nitrogen in the world won't make corn grow that isn't pollinated. Who knew! Hope to have some more impressive pictures to post of the harvest this fall.

I am curious to know more about what nitrogen and round-up are made of, how they work, and what the side effects are of over or under using either.

sam


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## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

First. I dont know why they call it "marrage counseling". It should be named "anger managment"

Nitrogen composes over 70 percent of our atmosphere. Its very common. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_cycle.

Nitrogen in fertilizer form comes in several ways. Ammonia nitrate is one form and there are many others. Just search Fertilizer. Fertilizer fixes the nitrogen in the soil so a plant can utilize it.

The rub comes when its over applied and gets into the water. This is why there is concern from enviromentalists.

The problem is fixing nitrogen the natural way is too slow. This was proven in the late 30's early 40's. If you study the history of fertilizer production and development you will find that food production took off and the results were much better yields and people had more food to eat.

I don't see anywhere that fertilizer caused starvation, but can see some other minor issues.

I think if the positives for fertilizer manufacturing and use were compaired to the negatives the positives win hands down.

Round Up is Glyphosate. Reprinted from wikipedia "*Glyphosate* (_N_-(phosphonomethyl)glycine) is a broad-spectrum systemic herbicide used to kill weeds, especially annual broadleaf weeds and grasses known to compete with commercial crops grown around the globe. It was discovered to be a herbicide by Monsanto chemist John E. Franz in 1970.[3] Monsanto brought it to market in the 1970s under the trade name Roundup, and Monsanto's last commercially relevant United States patent expired in 2000."

A chemical compound that in a certain species of plants inhibits the roots from asorbing water and nutrients.

Complete discription. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

The long and short of it is this. Many people hate anything chemical because it scares them and there is a great argument in the use of chemical weed killers and pesticides and fertilizers.

If they discontinued the use of them today several hundred millon people would starve to death next year. They were starving by the millions before the advent of these products.

And one more fact: It is an enviromentalists mission to get rid of these chemicals and they do not care if millions of people starve to death.

Just as long as it is not them.

One other argument for the vegan sister. We have four canine like teeth and are for tearing fiber. I never see a vegan eating yuca plants or hemp stalks. Those teeth were made to rip animal flesh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_tooth

I love how the wiki softens the facts in this one saying those were to hold the food firmly and to tear. I've never ever seen a celery stalk on the run either.

Good luck

CW


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I believe all farmers strive to be good stewards of the land. The fallacy with the "Mother Earth" movements are that they think all "farmers" are dimwit sod busters.

There is cutting edge technology revealed each year in the Ag industry. We have to keep up with technology to be able to compete and show a profit. That does not mean we go out and buy the latest do-dads. We would go broke doing that. But we are a group that is concerned about our health, the health of the people or animals that consume what we produce.

We do not take "shortcuts" and/or spray every chemical on the market. We spray because we have researched, gone to Extension meetings and listened to University research.

We have to combat new invasive weeds and insects. We have to be ultra efficient. We have to live with in out means.

We are the only business in the free world that produces a product, then asks, "What will you give me for it?" We have no guaranteed profit margin.

We buy everything at retail and sell at wholesale.

We are not Homer and Jethro, though we did lear some things from them.

We are literate, have computers, can read labels and have the ability to Google.

What we bring to the table (other than a meal) is experience. It does not matter what worked on a lab test plot if it does not translate into our fields. We can sit in meetings and listen to the latest-greatest and know in a few minutes why it will or will not work.

We can also listen to the Organic theories and make the same judgments.

Farming looks easy from the road.

My biggest concern, and it was touched on earlier by another, is the junk we import and ingest.

I read a journal from a farmer who took a government sponsored trip to see why that country could produce a product much more affordable than us.

He noted empty DDT containers littering different areas. DDT is Agent Orange and has been banned here for over 30 years. His notes said they were by the cattle working facilities and gathered through the language barrier that they sprayed not only the crops, buy also the beef for insects/parasites. No laws, self regulation, no minimum wage, no mandatory education. Then our government wants to know why we are not as "efficient".

Beef is butchered in foreign lands, aged on a transport barge, then inspected and stamped USDA at port of entry. [I have not been able to verify the last statement. It was related to me by a Heating/AC guy who worked on the barge]

It would be great to live in a chemical free world. I wonder how many of the daily medications people pump into their system each day are organic?

I apologize for writing a book. God bless you if you made it all the way through.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Well said Tim, I couldn't agree more.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Well said Tim, I couldn't agree more.


X2

A couple of clarifications though. Agent Orange is a herbicide made from 50% 2,4,5,T and 50% 2,4,D. In many cases the 2,4,5,T that was used was contaminated with a dioxin compound. That's what caused all the problems.

DDT is an insecticide. It was banned for Ag use worldwide but is still used for mosquito control (nothing else works as well) in many parts of the developing world. In my youth, I did some work in one of the Velsicol plants that made the stuff (I was refitting a different unit). The workers in the insecticide unit had all kinds of health problems 'cause their brains ended up like swiss cheese. A nasty place that I was very happy to leave.

Frozen/chilled meat is shipped all over the world. There are still lots of Reefer (refrigerator) Ships hauling meat, fruits, and vegetables around the world but now days, most of the shippers use refrigerated containers that are plugged in on a container ship. This gives them more shipping options, less risk, and cheaper costs.

The USDA does inspect foreign plants but typically relies on the local government's inspectors. Only some countries & companies are allowed to export to the US. Quite honestly, I trust most of the foreign producers (NOT CHINA) to do a better job as they see exports to be something that could be easily lost whereas the meat packers in the US often view this market as an entitlement. I hate to say this, but with the level of regulation in the US.....we'd starve without imported food.


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## Starvation Plantaton (May 16, 2011)

Not to add fuel to a fire but years ago my wife and I had the same discussion (Different topic). It ended up with me telling her that we both couldn't drive the bus at the same time. We came to an agreement of sorts (?) -She does inside the house and I do the farm . Still married after 35 yrs. It hasn't been a smooth ride but well worth it!


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