# New Idea 5209



## mule528 (Feb 22, 2011)

I have recently been charged with the task of repairing a New Idea 5209 diskbine. The knives of the first 2 disks are hitting when the machine is running with no load. I have played with the timing as best I can according to specs I have seen. Does anyone have any suggestions on what may be cause of the problem?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

The knives are hitting each other correct? I don't own one but did a lot of research before buying my New Holland.

Only two things come to mind, you have a gear with a bad spot which allowed em to get out of time or the drive shaft between those pods is twisted.


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## mule528 (Feb 22, 2011)

Correct. The knives of the first 2 are hitting. I've tried to adjust the gear timing and they clear each other when operating by hand but under tractor power with nothing to cut they make contact. Do you know if I can replace just one section of the shaft? according to the schematics I've seen it is a pieced shaft. And Thanks for the quick responce! I'm new to this.


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## rrch129 (Oct 5, 2009)

Check the oil for metal. The gears may have broken and the teeth become misaligned with good force. Just throwing out ideas. Check the spindles and if nothing wrong there, split the bar. Not the most fun thing to do but gotta be done if nothing is wrong outside the bar.


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## McCormick Man (Feb 27, 2011)

I have the same problem with a kuhn disc mower/conditioner. The two inside discs seem to be out of time & the ends of the blades hit each other & dull the leading corners. I have had a factory rep. look at the problem. I am told that on any disc machines with odd numbers of discs this is a normal thing. (5,7 or 9 discs.) My NH dealer claims this true. I also have a 6 disc unit that is fine. The service manual is for several different units & in the section on disc timing it states that any machine with odd numbers of discs do have this condition in that the two end units turn the same direction. I though my Kuhn also had a twisted shaft but apparently its normal. I would check other sim. units before I would do any serious tear downs. You may have a serious problem but maybe not.


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## mule528 (Feb 22, 2011)

Thanks for all the info. I have looked a new Massey unit and it seems my problem is the fact I have so much backlash. All the pods have what appears to be the same anount so I think I have a shaft issue. Within the next week I plan to tear it down and see what all I have to replace. Sounds like its gonna be a fun job but not too expensive. Especially considering the unit is nearly 15 years old and this is the first Ive been in other than one bearing. I'll post what I find so maybe it can help the next person who runs into this.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

Mule528,

I have a CaseIH 3309 which is the same thing as the NI 5209 with a different paint job. I don't have my service manual in front of me, but the discs should be set about 90 degrees from each other. I remember there being something weird about setting the first two discs though. That style of cutterbar has individual gearboxes that all run off of the same hex shaft that runs the length of the cutterbar. As the machine gets older that hex shaft will actually get a twist in it (and will eventually break).

If you remove the disc off of a section, there is a hub that is held in place with four allen wrench style cap screws, benieth that hub there will be shims that set the amount of backlash in the gear (remove shims to decrease the backlash). If you do this, make sure everything is clean before you open it up, since the grease in the hub will be exposed. The grease that is used in these machines is a special type that you can pick up at any CaseIH dealer (I'm assuming that you can get it at any New Idea parts dealer as well). The grease looks a lot like regular tube grease for the grease gun when it is cool, but turns to liquid when it warms up a little. I wouldn't recommend using anything else unless you check with a mechanic at a dealership to see if it is ok. I didn't think the small squirt tube of the stuff was too expensive the last time I bought some and the dealer I usually have to go to likes to mark things up pretty good.

If you are planning on doing a lot of your own repair work on this mower, I would suggest that you get the service manual as well as the owners manual. The CaseIH service manual has very good directions for how to disassembly, repair and reassembly the different components of the machine with step by step pictures as well as explodes views of the parts. The only thing I wish it had that it didn't was the part numbers. Feel free to send me a message if you want some more info.

Josh in WNY


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## midniteplowboyy (Jul 1, 2010)

McCormick Man,

What model kuhn do you have?

I think your one tooth off or a hub has twisted. Are your discs all 90º from each other? On your odd number of disk units there is an extra idler gear between the first two disks which causes them to rotate the same direction. You could have excess gear lash, but doubt it.

My dad put a new hub assembly in mine once and he got it a few teeth off and it would knock the tips off the blade, you couldn't here it hitting but it would eventually knock the tips off about 3/8".

Pull your 2nd disk and hub, center the 1st and 3rd disk blade bolts over the holes holes in the skids, drop the second hub in square to the other two and bar. If it dont look right rotate the gear/hub 90º and try again, turning 90º will give you a half tooth adjustment, 180º your back where you started. Set the disk back on and check how the alignment looks before you bolt anything back together. Its not hard to do, it takes longer to clean around the hub than the rest does.

The 1st and 2nd disk have to be perfectly timed if there turning the same way, the others are not as critical, they could prolly be off a couple teeth and not hurt anything other than looking funny.

I'm only familiar with kuhn's like the my GMD 700's(JD versions) and my FC313RF. So this may not apply to you, but may help someone.


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## GOOD HAY (Aug 8, 2010)

I don't have the manual in front of me right now but the problem is probably that the first disc is set the same as the others i.e. @ 90 degrees, what caused the problem is that the discs and the hubs should be removed annually to have the grease in the drives changed and the first was not put back in the right spot. I believe that this disc should be back 5degrees from 90. This can be done by removing the 1-1/8 nut on the top of the disc then clean the area well of all dust and debri, next remove the 4- 7/16" cap screws, this will the allow the hub to be lifted up and then the shaft can be rotated one or two teeth counter clockwise and then re-installed. Sort of sounds complicated but when you get it apart it is fairly simple. That is what I like about these machines. I have had one for about 10 years, I cut 250 acres a year. Just do the regular maintenance and everything is good. Just watch for shims when you lift the hub and make sure that they go back the way that they came out. Annual maintenance should include removing these hubs cleaning out the old grease and putting in new and changing the hypoid in the main drive. Try to get a manual as all of this is explained there too. If you need more help let me know.


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## GOOD HAY (Aug 8, 2010)

Just forgot to add that this would take about 15 minutes to do. You might have to try a couple of times to get it right without the book. Let me know how you make out.


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## Hay DR (Oct 28, 2009)

On a New Idea 5209 the first 2 disc turn in the same direction,CW. The 5209 is shaft driven in the mower bed. There are spacers between each mower head gearbox. The spacer between the 1st and second disc is slightly longer than the rest of the spacers. Likely some took it apart and put the spacer back in the wrong place. I have seen this mistake done numerous times they put the longer spacer next to the main gearbox and not between the 1st & 2nd disc.


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## mule528 (Feb 22, 2011)

Sorry for the delay in getting back with you. (Full time firefighter and have been slammed at work) I have finally been able to disassemble the thing and found no twist, but the through shaft had wear at each pod. The #1 pod was worse than the others, but none the less it appears my issue was just "normal" wear. I'm heading to my local dealer tomorrow to order the parts. And again. THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP AND INPUT. Other than no room for sockets on the pod bolts, it came apart easier than I expected.


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## retcol (May 11, 2010)

I had a NI 5209 for several years and when I checked the grease in the spinners I expereinced the same problem with the blades hitting after I put the spinner back on. The solution is to take the spinner off again and realign it to 90 degrees of the spinners next to it


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I just bought a 3309 for 1200$ for a backup to my pottinger novacat 305, its in rough shape, the pto shaft came apart on it at full speed and twisted the splines on the second shaft from the intermediate bearing to the gearbox. The slip clutch was stuck on it. Was run on a bushhog pto shaft for a short spell after.

Gear bed looks good, discs still in time, one or two have fraction more play than the rest, I assume someone put the wrong shims in.

Frame was cracked where the top box section tying the two sides together attaches. It was welded back up with out squaring it properly but has been run over a couple hundred acres since.

Towed home 50 miles nicely.

I'm planning to;
-repack the bed, grease all the other spots
-replace first pto shaft with a eurocarden 6 or 8 CV shaft
-free up slip clutch
-fix intermediate bearing
-Replace knife bolts, they look old

Anything I'm missing?


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## Larry (Mar 28, 2011)

Is it an older white one with the* one piece hex shaft in the cutter bed*? If the discs in question are "tight" (bearings ok), and just have too much backlash your problem most likely is you need a new hex shaft which costs around $150.

I've replaced mine 3 times over the last 20 years. Mine is a 3309 CIH but its an early model NI 5209. When if first happened it wipped out a couple blades on two discs. I replaced them and it did it again! So I got to checking an sure enough the two discs in question had too much backlash. So I pulled the discs off and the hub off the top of the two in question and it was all good. So then I pulled that hex shaft out and sure enough it was worn quitea bit where it runs through the gear. I will say the replacement shafts have stood up better then the first one. Then over the years I checked them and just replaced in the off season when I felt it was getting too much play. At first I thought you could reverse the shaft but the spots will line up again but on different discs. The driveshaft slides out the right side. You just pull off the end module and slide the shaft out. Grease the new one and slide it on it and put it back together.

If you pull the top off and its dry in there and gears are toast thats a different story!

Also years ago after I replaced the shaft one time I adusted the back lash on the gear sets to the factory spec (you remove shims). This reduced the backlash some also I found. All my gear sets in the cutter bar look like new still after 20 years. I'm told the replacement horzontal gear that the shaft runs through has more "contact area" for the shaft. Therefore the shaft doesn't wear out as quickly.

The newer New Idea cutter decks now use a multi- piece driveshaft.


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## Larry (Mar 28, 2011)

See my post regarding the cutter bar drive shaft if its an ealry one.

That front cv joint is not cheap, but you can get an aftermarket assembly for it. 
Check the conditioning roller bearings. They are greasable and if greased last for years. But I found I eventually got play in the bearing holders themselvers. So check it with a pry bar how much slop up and down is in there. If its not too bad its probably ok. The skid shoes wear but you can build them up with plate and a welder or you can buy after market ones too from A&I parts.

Snap some pics of it I'm curiorus what ya got for $1200!!! For that price you can afford to put some $$ into it. For a new version which is basially the same darn machine I was quoted $24,000 list. So I just fixed up my old one and put in new condtioning rollers this winter.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Its a Case IH 3309, so I presume a single piece shaft. Its a 50 fter machine. Looks good from 50 feet away. Needs a bit of welding on the hinges for the curtains.

I bowed the tongue a bit towing too fast on rough roads coming home, I read that used to be a common thing before they beefed it up.

The d-shaft is a pain, the aftermarket looks to be 450$ for an 80 hp shaft. I hesitate to ask what the oem costs. Bar is in good shape has been run on silt land, islands in a delta of a river. My other mower came from sandstone land and had the skid shoes ground right off it.

The modules are all tight to the one next to them, maybe 1/2" play at most. Seem to be at 90's. I hope the shaft break didn't twist the shaft, he claims he never retimed after the shaft break and no signs of tips hitting.

I'll try to get a picture.


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## armadillo (Jul 9, 2011)

I recently purchased a used 5209. My first discbine. I ordered a service and operators manual, but they have not arrived yet. I noticed your question when I was looking for the correect grease to put in the gearboxes. On my 5209, the gear underneath the hub the turtle bolts to has 23 teeth. That means there is a gear tooth every 15.65 degrees (360 degrees/23 teeth=15.65 degrees/tooth). If you try to advance or retard the hub 1 tooth where it is you will be +or- 15.65 degrees--that's a lot. If you attempt to advance the hub 90 degrees you will have to advance it either 5 or 6 teeth. 6 teeth will advance the hub 93.91 degrees (+3.91 degrees), 5 teeth will advance it 78.26 degrees (-11.74 degrees). Similarly, if you attempt to advance the hub 180 degrees you will have to advance it either 11 or 12 teeth. 12 teeth =187.83 degrees. 11 teeth = 172.11 degrees. That's +or- 1/2 tooth or +or- 7.83 degrees.

On my unit the trurtle that was out of time had wear marks on opposite sides and the knives on the turtle next to it had the heals of the knives wore off about 1/4 inch. I could hear a random tick when it ran. I lined up the square on the drive hub with the mounting holes in the bearing carrier then raised the carrier and rotated the hub (and gear underneath) 90 degrees, which it turns out is really 93.81 degrees. You can't really count the teeth when you do this but you can see the results if you square the drive square up with the bolt holes in the bearing carrier before you turn it 90 or 180 degrees. Anyway it solved the problem. No more ticking and the turtles "look" like they are in time. Hope this helps someone with timing issues.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Very late to this post to put up a picture. Sold the 3309 today 4 years later for 1800$, about what I've got in the thing to date. Bought all the u-joints and bearings for the driveline, new skids, used rim tire and tube on one side, some welding.

Never needed to mow a blade with it in 4 years so advertised it and sold within 2 hours. I'm sure now my Pottinger will blow to pieces the first of next season.

The pics are when it was drug home in 2011.


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