# summer annual grass control in timothy



## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

Every year after first cutting timothy, annual grasses like fall panicum and foxtail come up through the stubble and ruin the chances of a clean second cut timothy grass later on in the fall. Too much time and energy is wasted throughout July and August mowing off these fields of weeds to keep them from going to seed. Has anyone experimented with light doses of gramoxone or some other herbicide in trying to control such weeds with any success, and obviously not killing off the timothy stand? Delaying the timothy is fine, as it's usually pretty dormant in the heat of July and early August anyway, but starts taking off in the late summer. The presence of the weeds is there in Sept./Oct. when the timothy could really be made off for a final cutting, and fouls up having clean weed free hay.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I have also been wondering if there is any chemical that would take out foxtail in and not hurt orchard grass and timothy. Second cut is always full of foxtail and it doesn't look the best in a bale and it is kind of itchy.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I cleaned up most of my orchard grass fields by 1) mowing the foxtail just as the seed heads were starting to form and 2) adequate nitrogen application. Mowing keeps it from coming back next year. Nitrogen causes a better canopy which keeps the foxtail from germinating.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

This is what I will share with you.....Pastora will kill the foxtail.....it will also kill the timothy.....but the Orchard grass is supposed to survive.....this is what a major chemical company representative told me.....and the Rep does not work for Dupont(Pastora), but works for a competitor. I used Pastora about a month ago on some Johnson Grass in my fescue field....it worked and is slowly killing the Johnson Grass and the fescue seems to be fine. I read on the Pastora label and TImothy is listed as one of the grasses that it will kill, but Orchard grass is not listed. I am going to try Pastora on a section of a Orchard Grass field that has Foxtail really bad and I will give a honest report later. I figure to sacrifice the Timothy, which I will re-sow(drill) on down the line.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> I cleaned up most of my orchard grass fields by 1) mowing the foxtail just as the seed heads were starting to form and 2) adequate nitrogen application. Mowing keeps it from coming back next year. Nitrogen causes a better canopy which keeps the foxtail from germinating.
> 
> Ralph


What did you mow with Ralph, a discbine or regular discmower?

Regards, Mike


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

Vol said:


> This is what I will share with you.....Pastora will kill the foxtail.....it will also kill the timothy.....but the Orchard grass is supposed to survive.....this is what a major chemical company representative told me.....and the Rep does not work for Dupont(Pastora), but works for a competitor. I used Pastora about a month ago on some Johnson Grass in my fescue field....it worked and is slowly killing the Johnson Grass and the fescue seems to be fine. I read on the Pastora label and TImothy is listed as one of the grasses that it will kill, but Orchard grass is not listed. I am going to try Pastora on a section of a Orchard Grass field that has Foxtail really bad and I will give a honest report later. I figure to sacrifice the Timothy, which I will re-sow(drill) on down the line.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I don't know if time of year means anything or not, but here many guys burn off winter annuals like chickweed and shephards purse in the spring on alfalfa/orchardgrass fields with gramoxone, and all it does is set the orchardgrass back a week or two. It grows right back like nothing ever happened to it. Can you get away with it mid summer? This I don't know. Agronomy guide shows no control on orchard grass with gramoxone, but rates control of timothy a 6 out of 10 with same product. I'm wondering if that's at full rate, and it you can get away without hurting timothy with say 1/3 rate, which will most likely be enough to rid of the foxtail and panicum.

Sounds like its time for an experiment.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> This is what I will share with you.....Pastora will kill the foxtail.....it will also kill the timothy.....but the Orchard grass is supposed to survive.....this is what a major chemical company representative told me.....and the Rep does not work for Dupont(Pastora), but works for a competitor. I used Pastora about a month ago on some Johnson Grass in my fescue field....it worked and is slowly killing the Johnson Grass and the fescue seems to be fine. I read on the Pastora label and TImothy is listed as one of the grasses that it will kill, but Orchard grass is not listed. I am going to try Pastora on a section of a Orchard Grass field that has Foxtail really bad and I will give a honest report later. I figure to sacrifice the Timothy, which I will re-sow(drill) on down the line.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Thanks Mike, I did not realize there was anything that would kill Johnson grass in fescue. I have a fescue and orchard mix field that is infested with Johnson grass. It's not much of a problem in first cut but now that I am doing all square bales I need to keep it out of second cut. It would be worth sacrificing the orchard to to get rid of the Johnson grass if the pastora ends up killing the orchard also. What size is it best to spray the Johnson grass?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline, I am thinking the label said best results were achieved when sprayed before 18" tall but some of the JG was a little taller than that and it has turned purple and yellow like the shorter JG.

Regards, Mike.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Sounds like I may have to cut the Johnson grass and let it regrow before I spray as it is about that tall now and I have so much other stuff to do that has to get done that should have been done a month ago.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Vol said:


> What did you mow with Ralph, a discbine or regular discmower?
> 
> Regards, Mike


I usually just cut it and bale it for cheap cattle hay. I'm just using my NH H7230 to cut.

Timing is the key: Getting to it just as the seed heads are starting to develop. It seems that once the plant commits to head development, the rest of the plant stops growing. Last year, there wasn't enough OG to be worthwhile and the foxtail was pretty thin, so I just ran the shredder over it.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Vol said:


> This is what I will share with you.....Pastora will kill the foxtail.....it will also kill the timothy.....but the Orchard grass is supposed to survive.....this is what a major chemical company representative told me.....and the Rep does not work for Dupont(Pastora), but works for a competitor. I used Pastora about a month ago on some Johnson Grass in my fescue field....it worked and is slowly killing the Johnson Grass and the fescue seems to be fine. I read on the Pastora label and TImothy is listed as one of the grasses that it will kill, but Orchard grass is not listed. I am going to try Pastora on a section of a Orchard Grass field that has Foxtail really bad and I will give a honest report later. I figure to sacrifice the Timothy, which I will re-sow(drill) on down the line.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Ok, a follow-up. Since I posted that my fescue seems to be fine...it's not looking so hot...actually it's looking very poor. I used a spot sprayer of which I have never calibrated. I put in 1/2 ounce with 10 gallons of water and surfactant....I don't know if I overdosed or not because of never calibrating. What I am going to do is use my ag sprayer and spray a couple of acres where I have quack grass real bad this early fall and see if it kills my orchard grass as my field rig is calibrated.

I guess what I am saying is, DON'T SPRAY YOUR FESCUE YET!! Let me get back with everyone on my experiment and results here in a couple of months.

Sorry about the inconvenient truth.

Regards, Mike


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

Update to my gramoxone experiment on timothy. Sprayed 12 days ago across some dormant stubble and also some that had started to grow back after cutting. Put 1 oz. in 1 gal. water, and applied a mist with a hand sprayer. The panicum, crabgrass, and foxtail is gone. And so it seems the timothy as well. Darn it, thought it might squeak through and I'd bravely get serious about spraying the whole field. I'll keep an eye out, but so far, not promising.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

One of my best fields is in process of being about 50% overwhelmed by foxtail. 
I have thought of every strategy I could possibly do. What if I mowed it NOW and baled it up? Would the remaining stubble make another (3rd) crop by mid September?


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

might well do it especially if you goosed it with 30-40 units of N-cut high (3-4"), gets rid of the foxtail head and comes back quicker


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> One of my best fields is in process of being about 50% overwhelmed by foxtail.
> I have thought of every strategy I could possibly do. What if I mowed it NOW and baled it up? Would the remaining stubble make another (3rd) crop by mid September?


Quite possible this year with the abundant rainfall and the cooler temps.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ok, thanks. One more question: if I cut the field NOW, it will have some "soft" and immature foxtail heads in it. Would this be hay that could be sold for a good price? There's no weeds and it otherwise looks good.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Yes, it could....its the hard birdshot like seeds that cause the problems....not the grass itself. The thing about mowing is that if or when it does come back, the seed heads will be about 1/3 the original size and if you mow once again(3rd cut or just a clipping) it probably will not be able to mature before frost if it grows back.

Regards, Mike


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

FarmerCline said:


> I have also been wondering if there is any chemical that would take out foxtail in and not hurt orchard grass and timothy. Second cut is always full of foxtail and it doesn't look the best in a bale and it is kind of itchy.


Just FYI, your free to research and make your own decision about off label use. I have no idea if this would work. I know nothing about Timothy other than it sounds like it's a cool season perennial. Your asking about "any chemical". Check out Sulfosulfuron. Trade name is Maverick or maybe changed to Outrider. Maverick has been used extensively for grass control in wheat. It has a hell of a residual. Any Summer annual like sudan or grain sorghum planted shortly (within a year or so) after application will die.

It will control JG is bermuda grass pastures. I know, vs. Timothy. I have sprayed it on my established OG in the Fall without damaging the OG. I started out using Maverick on my bermuda grass hay field going after Crabgrass, Foxtail, etc. I use the same rate as on wheat.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Just out of curiosity: Has anybody tried Sencor (metribuzin) on timothy for annual grasses control?

I know it's labeled for alfalfa/orchardgrass mixes after they have gone dormant. Since orchardgrass and timothy are similar cool season grasses, I'm thinking Sencor might be usable.

Just wondering.

Ralph


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Just a thought- had to use Chaparral to control Speedwell in timothy. Did eliminate the speedwell and also wacked the timothy-label said it would be a problem there is just nothing else that gets speedwell effectively. Point is does not hurt og, fescue in fall or bluegrass.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Foxtail seed heads getting more prominent and it has been raining for days. 
Really hope to get this cut and baled NOW so I have at least a shot at a 3rd cut in mid sept.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Take your 3rd cutting later, way later, if you have to.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Take your 3rd cutting later, way later, if you have to.


How late have you baled hay up your way? 
During a typical late summer, I would think its damn near impossible after late September. 
So much rain and days are very short.

I wondered if I cut NOW (if it ever stops raining) how much more growth would I get in the next 45 days? That's about September 21st. 
Enough growth for a 3rd cut?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

November? Just wait until we get a full dry week on the way. It always happens sometime. By then there's very little moisture in the hay. Of course September is nicer. And if you like to do end of season service november really screws your schedule for that. I'd never suggest that super late is the ideal but it's certainly doable.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I can't imagine counting on good haying weather in PA in November.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> How late have you baled hay up your way?
> During a typical late summer, I would think its damn near impossible after late September.
> So much rain and days are very short.
> 
> ...


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Late fall haying weather isn't the same as good spring or summer haying weather. It's more of an exercise in freeze drying. Cold weather is better than warm at that time of year. Again, it's doable if you get yourself in that situation but it certainly isn't ideal.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Heck, after late Sept its a crapshoot even here in the norther Shen valley, I'vepushed a lot of Oct windrows into the woods!


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Worst case scenario: wrap it.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Timothy is sorta picky with almost any kind of spray - stuff seems to hurt it that is fine on other grasses - like gramoxone. So far as the foxtails go.... the best thing to do is once you figure out that they are in fact foxtails, then you should mow and bale it, cause it will still be good, and if a guy get enough rain and warm weather it might get enough growth for 3rd cut. It's unlikely, but it can happen - that is why you want to do the 2nd as early as possible

Rodney


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## SixesnSevens (Jun 19, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I can't imagine counting on good haying weather in PA in November.


Don't worry about hours of sunlight and high temperatures -- low relative humidity and a breeze are all you need. We get some nice stretches of such Autumn weather here in the northeast, and I routinely make hay in October.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> JD3430 said:
> 
> 
> > How late have you baled hay up your way?During a typical late summer, I would think its damn near impossible after late September.So much rain and days are very short.I wondered if I cut NOW (if it ever stops raining) how much more growth would I get in the next 45 days? That's about September 21st.Enough growth for a 3rd cut? What does you 2nd cutting look like ? How old is it ? I f you don't cut now what will you do ?


Second cut if done right now looks patchy. Real strong where foxtail is growing and sparse to normal in other areas. It's about 40 days since I cut it. 
If I didn't cut it now, it would be overwhelmed with foxtail. 
I think the solution is a second cut now, then hope for a 3rd cutting.


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

Couple years ago, I believe 2 to be exact, we had a foot of snow that ruined Halloween for the kids. 2 days later I cut orchardgrass and there was still snow along the woods under the trees. Ground was saturated and hated to drive around on it, but the next 3 days after that were beautiful, and we baled that hay dry as a bone. It was thick too, believe it gave a ton and a quarter/acre.

Last year though was a lost cause. We just never had the weather from mid Sept. on, and didn't make any in the fall. Different every year it seems.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hate it when you get fallen tree leaves in your hay, too.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Yup, they go in the windrows I push into the woods. I have sycamores on one field that drive me nuts in Oct.


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## nanuk (Aug 29, 2011)

the last couple years, it has only been dry enough to bale in Sept, early Oct.

I haven't rolled a bale before Aug in the last 3 years.

just started baling two days ago.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm seeing other guys dropping 2nd cutting NOW around here. Usually they wait for late August. Also, we've had torrential record breaking rain. 
I wonder what the correlation is?


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## richard m (Jul 10, 2013)

One year I baled grass hay the first week of December. Made good hay, took about a week to get it dry.


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