# RR Alf spray damage



## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

Has anyone seen damage in their RR alf when sprayed with rup? I have been seeing yellowing and stunting from 25 oz of rup powermax. I am starting to wonder if I have some kind of mineral in my water or a nutrient problem that is showing up.
The sprayer is clean, 10 gpa water, nothing else added to tank just rup. People 10 miles away are not seeing any of this problem.
The pic is sprayed rr alf on the left and unsprayed rr alf on the right.
Any ideas?
I should add that I have seen this in 3 different varieties from 3 different seed companies.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have not seen that kind of affect on my rr alf. I use a generic glyphosate and it is 41% active whereas Powermax is about the most potent of the glys at almost 49% active. You might want to change gly and use the less active varieties and see if that makes any change(many glys are 41% active). If it doesn't, then it would probably be your variety of rr alf.

Regards, Mike


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## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

I have used generic on the older fields with the same results at 1 qt per acre. I have seen this on WL, Pioneer and now DK so there has to be another problem but I am stumped as to what it is. I will be running a test on the water this week and also a plant tissue.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

It could be a fertility problem and the RR stresses the alfalfa just enough for it to show up, that's my best un educated guess as I don't grow RR alfalfa. I had a siliar problem with RR beans following wheat on new farm the first year we rented it.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

mlappin said:


> It could be a fertility problem and the RR stresses the alfalfa just enough for it to show up, that's my best un educated guess as I don't grow RR alfalfa. I had a siliar problem with RR beans following wheat on new farm the first year we rented it.


Sounds logical.

Regards, Mike


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## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

I have WL TR alfalfa. Mine never showed any yellowing after it has been sprayed. I'd say there's another problem like the other guys said. Something is stressing it.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

*"I should add that I have seen this in 3 different varieties from 3 different seed companies." *

_Just because seed is from different seed co's doesn't mean it is different variety.Actually with the RR seed it is a good chance it is the same._


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I read somewhere, and I can't locate the article, that the earlier developed RR alfalfa had a maximum application rate of one quart/acre/year (???-I can't remember the exact number).

Could this be the problem? Is there still a max application rate?

BTW: I believe there is only one variety of RR alfalfa, regardless of who is selling it.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

rjmoses said:


> BTW: I believe there is only one variety of RR alfalfa, regardless of who is selling it.
> 
> Ralph


I think it is 2 or 3.It was all grown by 1 company under contract with Monsanto.Actually I think they own that co.

Can kinda tell by FD ratings which are the same.So if you planted from 3 different seed co's all the same FD rated seed good chace it was all the same.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> I read somewhere, and I can't locate the article, that the earlier developed RR alfalfa had a maximum application rate of one quart/acre/year (???-I can't remember the exact number).
> 
> Could this be the problem? Is there still a max application rate?
> 
> ...


Ralph, the variety I used says not to exceed 6 quarts per year of round up max(48 per cent) and this includes any pre plant burn downs. I use a generic 41 percent so that allows for a slight increase. It also says to use 22-44ounces per application. I used 32 ounces my first application and experienced no problems.

Regards, Mike


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Hank, good to see you on this site. A western view is welcomed.

As to the varieties all being related I believe if we look it is mostly Forage Genetics doing most of the work. 
The lady I work with at America's Alfalfa has a Forage Genetics tie. For now WL has the alfalfa that best meets my needs and guess what a different lady but Forage Genetics is involved. The first lady is probably in Kansas City but working for a company in Oregon or Washington. The WL connection is in Fresno.

Hank to me your alfalfa appears to have a sulfur deficiency, assuming your Mo & Co plant levels are up to speed. This last year 18 months I found out that Cobalt is as important as Moly for legume nitrogen fixation, problem is no one is saying how much is really needed. I think maybe 5% or 10% of the level of Molybdenum, but that is a wag based on a stray message. For a $30 premium Midwest Labs provides Mo & Co analysis. Problem is some times they report none found. Does that mean there is really some there but the analysis I am paying for is not good enough to find it or is Co missing from the plant?
I believe 5 pounds of Moly fertilizer will fertilize 40 acres. Does that mean one pound of Cobalt fertilizer will fertilize 40 Acres?

Now you may be familiar with my plant analysis adventures. First I found my alfalfa needed copper. After about 5 years of copper sulfate or a chelated copper the copper levels were up to speed, but I had an obvious nitrogen deficiency. Looked something like your's. Turned out to be Mo deficiency. That was quick to cure, but then the plant analysis and the hay analysis were showing potassium deficiency.
The potassium deficiency had been there all along, but it was masked by the copper & then the Moly deficiencies. 
The best I can tell adding potassium will improve yield up until the tissue analysis is in the 1.70% K range. With enough moisture, and not excessively fertilized with phosphate. We can increase potash with little effect on yield. until the plant analysis is at or above 3.50% K. Ok? But with limited moisture yield will improve above if we fertilize to 2.20% K. With moisture STRESS yield will peak at 2.68% or 2.78% K RANGE.
With this soil and this climate it is difficult to have alfalfa test above 2.20% K with only 0-0-60 fertilizer. Additional fertilizer with K-Mag 0-0-22[sub]K[/sub]-11[sub]Mg[/sub]-22[sub]S[/sub] will get alfalfa here above 2.50% K but not so far not up to 2.68% K.
Soil 8 pH, 40 CEC, Vertisol clay type.

In 10 years I will retire, at [sub]90[/sub]

Correlation Does Not Prove Causation!
Post Hoc ergo Propter Hoc


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## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

This field is starting to look better and I will take some pics from the same places in a couple of day to post. I have now talked to numerous people connected to RR alf and nobody has seen anything like this. I will also have the tissue test back next week along with the well water test so we will see what those yield. I will post those results when I have them in hand.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hank, really interested in what you find out. I do suspicion what Hay Wiison mentioned about being deficient on Sulphur the more I think on it.

Regards, Mike


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Hank
The best information found so far about mineral levels at different stages of alfalfa maturity.
http://www.caf.wvu.edu/~forage/library/forglvst/bulletins/bullit657...
Forty year old data from West By God Virginia. The information is buried in a whole barn full of Eastern Forages.
Check the printer page 57 the book page 50, Also check the printer page 65 book page 58.
There are some graphs that illustrate what the charts say for P, K, Mg, & Ca.

According to the text most mineral percentages stay the same with maturity, except for P & K, N percentage decreases with maturity also.

HERE the calcium percentage is about double what is normal for the more acid soils, due to 5 to 10 percent free lime.

Regardless this publication revised some of my pet theories.
I do have for alfalfa and for bermudagrass HAY charts with the Critical Nutrient Range as well as the Critical Nutrient Concentration. (CNR & CNC) The advantage of being an ignorant farmer & not a research specialist is no one complains if the CNR's &/or CNC are adjusted on a whim.

Another thing is there is little or no information as to the ideal concentration of the essential elements.


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## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

Ok guys here is the tissue test, what do you make of this?


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Now why is the nitrogen so low?
That 2.68% N figures to be 16.75% CP.
It may be the micro nutrient Molybdenum deficiency is limiting the bacteria from producing nitrogen for the alfalfa.
If the lab still has the sample they may be able to test the Moly level.
Cobalt also does positive things to produce nitrogen for alfalfa, but how much is enough I do not know. Possibly 0.1 ppm Co is enough.

The calcium level is low while the potassium level is high.
HERE our high calcium soil to some extent depresses the potassium uptake. 
I a more normal soil they warn of to much potassium depressing the uptake of calcium.

Like here your iron is high, way high, just as it is here. I have always thought it was due to contaminating the sample with a steel tool, some dust or what have you because here we see Iron Chlorosis, One if the many consultants on NAT suggests that the high calcium is the ultimate cause of high Fe plant levels and iron Chlorosis. Something about calcium bicarbonate in the plant being unstable and turning loose one carbonate to form a iron carbonate which is not used by the plant.

Maybe I missed it, but is this from harvested hay or clippings off the top 6" of standing alfalfa in early bloom?


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## Hank- in or (Feb 12, 2009)

The tissue test was taken from standing plants that are ot eve close to bloom.
I got the water test back, nothing even close to being harmful and the ph is 7.97. I will post the test results whe I get a chance to downsize the file.


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