# What blend of Fertilizer...



## downtownjr

do you use for Legumes?

do you use for grass?


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## Lazy J

Jim:

We follow Soil Test recommendations when we have them. If we don't we use replacement rate plus 15% since we need to build our soils.

We have the blends custom mixed by our fertilizer supplier, we don't use off the shelf blends.

Jim


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## mlappin

We have on farm storage for 75 tons of dry product that we buy in 25 ton lots. Normally I spread 300lb/acre of 6-15-40 right after first cutting then do another application of a custom blend in the fall, this always includes 2lbs/acre of boron.


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## Mike120

I follow the soil test recommendations as well. My dealer will pretty much mix anything. I typically send tests to A&M in the Fall before I lime and that gives me a check on my own chemistry set. I do my own soil tests the rest of the time. I usually test after each cutting and get whatever I need.


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## rjmoses

In past years, I applied 300 lbs potash/120 lbs DAP on both alfalfa and grass. Grass got 80-120 lbs urea spread in March (2/3rds) --June (1/3rd).

I'm changing my fertilizer program this year because of low hay prices/high costs. I will apply the potash/DAP mix in the fall. Nitrogen as liquid in early March.

Ralph


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## hay wilson in TX

*follow the soil test recommendations *
This is something I can not afford to do.
For reasons beyond my understanding the Labs (Plural) tend to over report some essential elements as well as under report others.

We know this becouse the plant analysis tell us so.

Something that is not mentioned is the (big time) variability in soil test results.

http://www.ipni.net/ppiweb/bcrops.nsf/$webindex/456AC491E25BE4F5852568F10063B934/$file/97-1p14.pdf

As a result I use crop records and plant analysis for 99% of my fertility management.

Here a calcareous soil (8 pH & 6 to 10% free lime) and a 50 meq/100g CEC Vertisal clay loam.


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## Mike120

hay wilson in TX said:


> Something that is not mentioned is the (big time) variability in soil test results.


Soil tests are only valid for the plugs that you put in the bucket......and then it's an average for all of them. That is one of many reasons why I do my own tests. It's cheaper, faster, and if I have areas that look/yield differently, I can test to see why. I also know that I am using the proper reagent in the correct amounts. I have to say though, the results I get from A&M are usually pretty close to what I get. If LaMott made a plant analysis kit, I'd be more interested, but the process seems to be more complicated than I want to mess with. It also seems to me that plant analysis is more of a lagging indicator, whereby soil analysis would be more of a leading indicator. I can adjust my soil components to affect a future crop, but there's not much I can do to it after it's grown. I can only adjust for the next crop.


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## nosliw

last year on my hay ground, I went by my soil tests and it ended up being almost a 50/50 mix of 46-0-0 (urea) and 0-0-60 (muriate of potash)

everything tested high in phosphorus.

this year I think I'm going to concentrate more on PH and getting a few small fields in some good stands of orchardgrass.


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## hay wilson in TX

Mike for a little over 2 years I used the *LaMott* soil testing kit. I probably still have a lot of their glassware. 
It was a wonderful continuing learning experience, though time consuming on my part. I must be slow. 
At Good Old Southwest Texas State College, San Marcos that was IT. 
When I came back to the farm I started back where I left off. 
The advantage of on the farm testing for me was with out forced drying and grinding of the samples the potassium results were closer to what is considered Usual. 
When I changed to TAMU they were still using their Modified Morgan Extractant, which is completely unreliable for phosphate analysis in high pH soils. Something that I did not learn for a few more years. 
My neighbors all saw a positive response to phosphate fertilizer, and the books all said alfalfa needed phosphate, so I applied phosphate to the alfalfa ground, regardless of what TAMU was saying.

All the literature said this part of the world was very high in potassium. Despite visible signs of potassium deficiency on the plants. 
Tissue analysis told me that my alfalfa was first deficient in copper, then in Molybdenum, and for sure potassium. To get the potassium back to where the alfalfa was not showing white spots, had poor yield, and could not keep a stand, required 2,000 lbs/A of Murate of Potash. MOP or 0-0-60. With time I learned that the potassium response was better with 500 lbs/A MOP + 1,500 lbs/A K-Mag. ( 0-0-22K-11Mg-22S )
Sounds rather drastic but this was prior to planting each new stand of alfalfa, expecting a 5 year stand and 20 to 30 tons/A of hay. 
Presently my program is 500 Lbs/A MOP & 500 lbs/A K-Mag, + an annual top dressing of 100 lbs/A MOP & 100 Lbs/A K-Mag. The top dress is to encourage luxurious consumption going into our Annual Summer Drought. Something that may sound strange away from our Texas Climate. 
Adjusting the potassium soil test levels for the 40-50 CEC in theory THIS soil should test in the *417.6 ppm K* range.
For my 50 Plus CEC bermudagrass ground the THIS soil should test in the *522 ppm K* range. That had my hay testing in the 2.20% K range. Going into our summer drought the alfalfa tops should have 2.78% K *HERE*. 
With irrigation a hay report of 1.70% K is just fine. The Critical Nutrient Range for potassium is very broad, unlike the CNR for phosphate which is maybe 0.04% wide, possibly only 0.02% wide. 
People in California, with irrigation, are happy with 1.60% K. 
Potassium = moisture use efficiency. With irrigation water use efficiency is not that exciting. With drought conditions water use efficiency is paramount. 
We do not have frost heaving to thin a stand, we have summer drought.
Some even advocate the CNR for alfalfa is 1.40% K to 3.0% K.

Maybe 20 miles east of West, TX last Wednesday I saw a field 4 year old stand if RR alfalfa. Looked really good to me. He does have a few circles of Cotton Root Rot but nothing drastic. (Cotton Root Rot may be something new to our friends further north.)


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## Mike120

hay wilson in TX said:


> Presently my program is 500 Lbs/A MOP & 500 lbs/A K-Mag, + an annual top dressing of 100 lbs/A MOP & 100 Lbs/A K-Mag. The top dress is to encourage luxurious consumption going into our Annual Summer Drought. Something that may sound strange away from our Texas Climate.


Interesting.....I assume you have a high clay content. I've got a typical SE Texas sandy loam. The top dressing to encourage luxurious consumption going into the drought is an interesting idea. Because I watch my soil levels, my fields usually do OK until the last cutting (unless we get a hurricane). Last year it was pretty poor. I assume that by top dressing in June I would be increasing the amount of exchangable potassium which should improve water transport in the plant and enable it to withstand the drought better. Is that correct? Because it typically does not improve yields, I hadn't considered over-applying the potassium. So what is a good K value for Bermuda? I typically get a "NIR analysis" on my hay.....should I be getting a "Protein + Minerals" instead?


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## hay wilson in TX

Mike, I have 1.40% to 2.87% K as the range with 2.12% K being the Critical Nutrient Concentration for bermudagrass. 
Here it usually does not rain enough to be of any ue between July first and the opening of Dove Season. I really like to have the the July first cutting to be closer to 2.50% K. 
Have not done that yet. 
I smile with 2.10% K.
Less than 1.90% K & I expect the stand to thin down some by September.

If you are anything like the few farms I have seen in East Texas top dressing during the season is not a bad idea and top dressing nitrogen every 3 weeks if you are a grazing dairy.


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## askinner

hay wilson in TX said:


> *follow the soil test recommendations *
> This is something I can not afford to do.
> For reasons beyond my understanding the Labs (Plural) tend to over report some essential elements as well as under report others.
> 
> We know this becouse the plant analysis tell us so.
> 
> Something that is not mentioned is the (big time) variability in soil test results.
> 
> http://www.ipni.net/...ile/97-1p14.pdf
> 
> As a result I use crop records and plant analysis for 99% of my fertility management.
> 
> Here a calcareous soil (8 pH & 6 to 10% free lime) and a 50 meq/100g CEC Vertisal clay loam.


Wilson, for the difference between tissue and soil samples for alfalfa, I suspect, that it is due to the 10 odd foot of taproot it has. I don't see much sense in sampling 6 inches of my soil, when the plant is feeding off soil much deeper than that? IMO, the fertiliser I am putting out now, won't be of any benefit to my alfalfa until a couple of years time, especially things like lime and K that travel slowly.

That is just my humble belief, would love to know if this is a justified belief. I'm quickly becoming a firm believer in tissue samples, and leave the soil samples to shallow rooted crops and planting prep time. For this same reason, I am also quickly becoming sold on the idea of subsurface drip irrigation, and fertigation through that. May as well send it straight to where it's needed, rather than spread and wait!

Thoughts guys?


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## Mike120

askinner said:


> Wilson, for the difference between tissue and soil samples for alfalfa, I suspect, that it is due to the 10 odd foot of taproot it has. I don't see much sense in sampling 6 inches of my soil, when the plant is feeding off soil much deeper than that? IMO, the fertiliser I am putting out now, won't be of any benefit to my alfalfa until a couple of years time, especially things like lime and K that travel slowly.
> 
> That is just my humble belief, would love to know if this is a justified belief. I'm quickly becoming a firm believer in tissue samples, and leave the soil samples to shallow rooted crops and planting prep time. For this same reason, I am also quickly becoming sold on the idea of subsurface drip irrigation, and fertigation through that. May as well send it straight to where it's needed, rather than spread and wait!
> 
> Thoughts guys?


Mr Wilson made a believer out of me but I don't sample as much as I should. I'll take soil samples in the next few weeks and work out what I need to apply. I started going heavy on the K and it's made a huge difference.

I've thought about tape in the fields but have never seen it done in a hay field. You guys are much more experienced in dealing with drought so if anyone can solve the problem, y'all can. I did some work on the Olympic Dam expansion last year. I can't remember how much they were spending on a new Desal and pipelines, but it was a lot. Just a drop in the bucket for that job though.


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## dbergh

I like the drip tape idea as well. Heavily front loaded on costs but in the long term makes a lot of sense from what I see. Also much more efficient form an energy use standpoint too. we are looking at pumping costs pushing the $300 per acre cost these days with our handlines and pivots and may have to convert to stay in business at some point in time.


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## askinner

Mike120 said:


> Mr Wilson made a believer out of me but I don't sample as much as I should. I'll take soil samples in the next few weeks and work out what I need to apply. I started going heavy on the K and it's made a huge difference.
> 
> I've thought about tape in the fields but have never seen it done in a hay field. You guys are much more experienced in dealing with drought so if anyone can solve the problem, y'all can. I did some work on the Olympic Dam expansion last year. I can't remember how much they were spending on a new Desal and pipelines, but it was a lot. Just a drop in the bucket for that job though.


There are quite a few running it over here now in hay fields. Yes, the upfront cost is a big hurdle, though with the price of electricity now, I'm sure it wouldn't take long to recover due to the lower pumping pressure and labour savings. Only thing I can see against it, is I would need to retire the sub-soiler, and I'm not sure that's a great idea on a hay field. We also have some pest down here I can't recall the name of, but they eat through the tape, though you add a insecticide into the water to overcome this.

Yes, that Olympic Dam project is massive, at $30 Billion worth. Though it has been shelved at the moment,due to our high $, low ore prices, and the greenies making life difficult. Shame really, we need to find some work for all the "New Australians" we have turning up by boat every day


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## gradyjohn

Back in college (a long time ago) in my soils class the Prof stated that you can go by the recommendations of the dealer in the area, but you may be waisting money where you don't need it. I soil test, and to be more specific, for availiable nutrients. Example, where i was raised we had blackland on a white rock shelf. A test would show high in K ... but not much was available. I also check for the micro nutrients. For example our soil was alkaline so no matter what I put out in had some sulphur in it. Acid soils you need lime, etc. It also showed short on copper. The more extensive the test the better the results. Otherwise you are just throwing money on the ground. It's a crap shoot. Maybe you hit and maybe you don't. Also, on the home page of this site has information about soil test ... and tissue sampling of the plants which is also a good indication what nutrients they are defficient.


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