# documented MSMA kill



## tyndallsl

Everyone has heard that MSMA will kill cows and horses. Does anyone know of a documented case of it happening. All the big hay farmers in eastern NC use it, and I have not heard of any problems that are fact and not just rumers.


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## somedevildawg

Arsenic will kill anything in the right dose....google MSMA dangers and see what you find...I use to spray it on the turf grass, never on hay


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## cwright

About the only way to prove it would to be feed a control group of horses with hay treated with MSMA for a few months and see if they kick the bucket.

From what I can find it is not approved for field applications but is for lawns.

http://pbigordon.com/pdfs/MSMAHerbicide-SL.pdf

Pastora is the replacement for MSMA

http://www2.dupont.com/Land_Management/en_US/assets/downloads/pdfs/Pasture_Rangeland/K-22791.pdf

CW


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## hay wilson in TX

MSMA does not have a label for hay that I know of. Other wise I would use it.


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## endrow

I WONDER when we talk about hay residuals.(like arsenic in MSMA ) We say ..I sprayed it and the hay did not die.. or I feed the hay and the cow did not die.. some would say all clear . But if we use products off label like this and the hay lives and the cow lives will we have a chance by milk or meat to have residual arsenic in .................. you fill in the blank


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## tyndallsl

I realize that the right dose of arsenic will kill anything. I am not advicating the use of MSMA. I am not saying that I use it. I am simply asking the question, do you know of any cases that livestock death has occured due to the use of MSMA?

Also, Pastora is not a good replacement in our area. It kills more hay than weeds. We have used it and always loose at least one cutting per season. When our hay is weak, nutgrass and crabgrass take over.


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## Tim/South

tyndallsl said:


> I realize that the right dose of arsenic will kill anything. I am not advicating the use of MSMA. I am not saying that I use it. I am simply asking the question, do you know of any cases that livestock death has occured due to the use of MSMA?


Documenting deaths from MSMA would be difficult. A person would have to admit to using it on hay fed to something that died.

Then the animal would have to have a postmortem to verify the cause of death.

Anyone willing to go against the feeding caution would most probably feed it to their own cattle rather than risk litigation by selling it as feed hay on the open market.

If their own cattle suffered or died then it is Shovel and Shut-Up time.

Finding documented cases is going to be difficult. No one is going to document (and become liable) for a flagrant misuse of a chemical.


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## Vol

tyndallsl said:


> I realize that the right dose of arsenic will kill anything. I am not advicating the use of MSMA. I am not saying that I use it. I am simply asking the question, do you know of any cases that livestock death has occured due to the use of MSMA?Also, Pastora is not a good replacement in our area. It kills more hay than weeds. We have used it and always loose at least one cutting per season. When our hay is weak, nutgrass and crabgrass take over.


What kind of hay did you use the Pastora on? Can you put your general location in your profile?

Regards, Mike.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Using any chemicals off-label is irresponsible to say the least!


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## dubltrubl

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Using any chemicals off-label is irresponsible to say the least!


+1!!! I've never used MSMA and prior to starting our own hay business, would never buy hay with it in it if we knew. It makes for a beautiful bermuda patch though. I have no doubt there are still people that use it in our area, but can't prove it. One of the problems I see with MSMA is the tendency for arsenic levels to build in the soil. I may be wrong, but I suspect, given arsenics characteristics, that you could feed it to a group of animals for years with little or no side effects all the while building levels of arsenic in the soil,hay, and arsenic tolerance in those particular animals. But then after several years, feed it to a new group, and I'll wager they won't fare so well. I prefer to not take that risk, documentation or not!


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## tyndallsl

#1 Did not intend to piss off the world.

#2 Do not need a sermon on etchics or morals.

#3 I only asked a simple question for my own benefit to help with a decision on whether or not to use MSMA.

#4 (VOL) We are in eastern NC and the hay is Bermuda.

#5 (DUBLTRUBL) Thanks for the non judgemental opinion. I tend to agree with you that arsenic levels will probably build up over time with continuous useage.


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## dubltrubl

tyndallsl,

One idea that was presented to me a few years back, by an old hay farmer that had years more experience than me was, if you absolutely must clean a field and feel MSMA is your best option, go ahead and apply it at turf field rates. After 1-2" of rainfall on the field harvest the hay, bale it, then put it in a pile and burn it. I can actually see some merit to that plan as a one time application. I've just never been able to afford to try it! We find Pastora to work quite well in our area, provided we get to apply it early in the season, and we get some rain on the field within a couple of weeks to help translocate the chemical. It definitely ain't a replacement for MSMA when it comes to cleaning a field as well though, but it is safe to use. Regarding nutgrass, crabgrass, and in our case some bahai, we've had good success using imazapic. (Plateu) Just some additional thoughts.

Best of luck in your hay season!

Regards,

Steve

p.s. Attached are a couple of pics of a Jiggs field we planted in the fall of '11. Pics were taken spring of '12 after Pastora application and fertilizer.


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## tyndallsl

dubltrubl,

Thanks for the good advise. I will look into Plateu. I was just not impressed with Pastora results vs costs. We sprayed a newly sprigged field last year and almost lost it all. Still today it is way behind. Had good luck with Cimmeron, but need something for nutgrass.


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## somedevildawg

Hey Tyndall, #1 ...no body is pissed off....
#2 ....no one is preaching to you, you asked a question, the only logical conclusion would be that you want proof
#3 ....you confirmed my suspicions
#4 ....update your profile
#5 ...dubltrubl is a great contributor to the forum, I think his advise is spot on

if you think you know better than the chemist, scientist, etc. feed it up.....but don't sell it to others.....
read the labels, they are there for a reason....btw I ain't never been accused of being a preacher


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## somedevildawg

tyndallsl said:


> dubltrubl,
> Thanks for the good advise. I will look into Plateu. I was just not impressed with Pastora results vs costs. We sprayed a newly sprigged field last year and almost lost it all. Still today it is way behind. Had good luck with Cimmeron, but need something for nutgrass.


Once again, ya just gotta read those labels....it clearly says not to use Pastora on a newly sprigged Bermuda field...right on the label...


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## tyndallsl

Field was sprigged in March. Sprayed in July, on the recomendation of the local fertilizer and herbicide dealer.

I came here for some help. I am not illiterate. Local resources have not been the answer. Only one contributer has tried to offer advise. The rest have only told me how stupid I am. I thought maybe I could learn something from others who have been farming longer than me.

Enjoy your forum gentlemen, I won't return.


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## somedevildawg

tyndallsl said:


> Field was sprigged in March. Sprayed in July, on the recomendation of the local fertilizer and herbicide dealer.I came here for some help. I am not illiterate. Local resources have not been the answer. Only one contributer has tried to offer advise. The rest have only told me how stupid I am. I thought maybe I could learn something from others who have been farming longer than me.Enjoy your forum gentlemen, I won't return.


Wow....I don't remember anyone saying anyone was stupid......I don't even think it was insinuated 
Perhaps local resources haven't been the answer because you aren't willing to take advise...just my take
Btw a field sprigged in march would be considered a new stand, a young stand, an immature stand, a stand without deep roots, call it whatever your locals call it but it shouldn't be sprayed with Pastora until the following spring, whatever 2-4d won't kill, you'll have to deal with....after this year the Bermuda will be thick enuf to out compete the weeds for the most part, Pastora will go to work for you.....
IF you read the label, add surfactant and adjuvant, and a qt per acre of 2-4d if yu can.....right after green up.....

My advise for you is done.....guess it doesn't matter anyway....don't spray MSMA like everyone else around you.....or go ahead then report back to the forum if any livestock shows up with legs in the air, then we'll have documented a case file....


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## Vol

tyndallsl said:


> "Field was sprigged in March. Sprayed in July, on the recomendation of the local fertilizer and herbicide dealer"
> 
> Like Dawg said....you do not spray Pastora on anything that is not ESTABLISHED.....which takes one complete season...your local advice and the fact that you did not read and understand your Pastora label is the reason your newly sprigged field is less than successful.
> 
> "I came here for some help. I am not illiterate. Local resources have not been the answer. Only one contributer has tried to offer advise. The rest have only told me how stupid I am. I thought maybe I could learn something from others who have been farming longer than me."
> 
> No one has called you stupid or even insinuated that....you are very defensive and somewhat combative about advice and constructive responses. We are all adults here and sometimes our answers are quite direct....but we will give you nothing but sound advice and if you are not man enough to draw from it then so be it.
> 
> "Enjoy your forum gentlemen, I won't return."


Well what can I say......this is the first person to take his ball and go home that I can recollect in my 4 years of participating on this site.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline

tyndallsl said:


> Field was sprigged in March. Sprayed in July, on the recomendation of the local fertilizer and herbicide dealer.I came here for some help. I am not illiterate. Local resources have not been the answer. Only one contributer has tried to offer advise. The rest have only told me how stupid I am. I thought maybe I could learn something from others who have been farming longer than me.Enjoy your forum gentlemen, I won't return.


 You have received some very good advise here and every contributer has tried to help you. In my opinion it's just not what you were wanting to hear but that is no reason to accuse people of calling you stupid. And the number one thing is you need to read and understand the herbicide label before using it regardless of others in your area are doing.


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## AndyL

Hmm, well I've had enough of y'alls insults. I think I'll go to bed and won't be back. Tonight. I think.

Oh, I reread all the post, and I'm baffled to his comment. I guess some just read things the wrong way.


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## Texasmark

I used it once to clean up some pasture (which it did) before I replaced my cows. Didn't realize arsenic was in it. Regardless, I put the cows on the next year and they are alive and well, calves are on time and strong. Haven't used it since obviously on this patch.

Mark


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## bluefarmer

I agree, he must not fully understand what he reads, I sure learned something.


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## Texasmark

Interesting topic and just in time.

I just finished putting up my first hay cutting and in the process noticed some Yellow Nutsedge spots. I read up on how this stuff spreads and have some MSMA that I bought before I returned to the beef business. I put it on some pasture several years ago to kill several things which it did nicely, that 24D nor Geophospate benefits/hazards fit. I didn't know about the 7 1/2% arsenic content until a neighbor and I were chatting one day (missed seeing that on the label.)

So, in the year after the application I put cows on it. Fine, no problem, calving on time and all.

I want to spot spray the NS in my hay patch. So this AM I get on the marvelous www and ask a couple of questions, basically addressing the hay/pasture concerns, warnings and anything else that appears to be CREDITABLE information. I Googled "MSMA cautions" and "MSMA cautions for pastures".

Under MSMA cautions, I noticed a topic: Myths of MSMA. Interesting explanation of what it is, how it functions, what to consider, and you might note who is writing the article. Might look at it if you are interested. I printed it out and added it to my Gordon's (product producer) warning label that I also got on the same subject inquiry.....course I have the same label on my MSMA containers.

So, after reading both those and not being able to find anything derogatory under either subject, and no problem with my cows and pasture, I am going to spray it and not worry about it. Getting things in perspective:

I mix it at 1-2%.....a gallon or two per 100 gallons of water.

I cover about 4 acres with 100 gal of mix.

First of all the 7 1/2% amount of arsenic in the jug now becomes 1/100th of that (.075%) in the sprayer tank.

Second, at about 40,000 square feet per acre x 4 acres, I spread this 100 gallon, .075% solution over 160,000 square feet.

So 0.075%/160,000 square feet = 0.000625 gal. of a 0.075% solution per square foot..............get the drift?

My farm, my hay patch, my cows, and my decision. After looking at it, am I concerned? I don't think so. (sarcasm!)

Now here's what's funny. I also learned on these two sites of the positive benefits of Nutsedge. Very interesting reading about nutrients it contains, being used as a food source for people in places like Egypt and other things including the NS rhizomes being added to cattle feed to get the benefit of the nutrients.

My first association with it was in a pasture a gal wanted me to hay for her to keep her ag tax deducts. I did and I got this great volunteer crop and baled it in squares and nothing would touch it. Investigating what it was and all led me to buy some MSMA to control it and as I said, other things in my pasture that the other two herbicides didn't fit.

HTH,

Mark


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## somedevildawg

Mark, I don't have any problem with anyone spraying on their field, on their hay, for their animals. However, ground water contamination would be my concern, if a well (for whatever reason) tested positive for arsenic, It probably won't be from your contamination at such small diluted doses, but years prior when the guys didn't know not to spray MSMA in large quantities. I loved MSMA when working in turf, used it the first time I started my hay field until I talked to my extension office.....however, if I am selling my hay, I would not use it. I think that's the only responsible course one can take....nothing better at getting rid of sandbur, that's what i was trying to control....


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## cwright

Yep the ol WWW has lots of good info. It seems golf course ponds somewhere in Florida got tested in 2006 and the Arsenic levels were high. The EPA studied it for a long time and limits it use now and soon it will go away.

There was a big argument of the inorganic arsenic converting to organic arsenic. There was no mention of how long that product had been used there but would bet it was over several years and several applications per year.

The levels tested in the ponds were low but higher than the standard that was set for ground. It was not at a toxic level. No tests were done in the ground water near the ponds just the ponds themself.

This link has some doucmentation.

The EPA has reams of info on it.

http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/admin/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/21/MSMA%20replacement%20pub.pdf

If you read the rulings closely they say use it if you got it.

CW


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## endrow

If cows are subject to off label herbicides by the hay they ate, keep the hay and meat on YOUR FARM do not sell it , 99% of the food consumers would not want anything to do with food produced in an off label manor . And 99% of all farmers who value consumer confidence will follow the label. I am a dairy farmer Went threw this in the 60's & 70's Guys said I don't care I will give the cow the whole bottle and I will not discard the milk . USDA took the drugs away from us and the good ones we have left cost 10 times more than the old ones. Plus added regulations and penalties.. Ask a dairy farmer last time he said to a USDA Inspector My Farm My Hay My cows


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## askinner

I'm happy to see that almost all the guys on here are against off label usage. The regs are put in place for a reason, you might say "my cows, my hay, my farm", but at the end of the day, it only takes one bragger to bring it all undone, and next thing you know, farmers are the bad guys again plastered all over the nightly news.

This is a very professional industry, and I for one, will not stand for, nor help cowboys. If you think you're smarter than the scientists that make these decisions, best you leave it IMO.

Rant over.


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## somedevildawg

askinner said:


> I'm happy to see that almost all the guys on here are against off label usage. The regs are put in place for a reason, you might say "my cows, my hay, my farm", but at the end of the day, it only takes one bragger to bring it all undone, and next thing you know, farmers are the bad guys again plastered all over the nightly news.
> This is a very professional industry, and I for one, will not stand for, nor help cowboys. If you think you're smarter than the scientists that make these decisions, best you leave it IMO.
> 
> Rant over.


Where you been skinner, your season over down under? Come visit the states.....I'll let you run the tedder for me, I'm tired of running it! 
We've had some kinda rain in the entire eastern half of U.S. if you came towards the end of July....I'd let you run the baler and bandit.....that's about when well be getting this harvest in the books, hopefully...


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## Texasmark

Did you ever think that the manufacturers of something didn't think of every conceivable application for their product? Think Henry Ford would have thought to add GPS to his perfect Model T? So GPS came along later. So other ways to use a product can come along later. Sooooo. The intent of the Feds is to protect us from ourselves. We need that.

Take bicarbonate of soda; you know the Arm and Hammer stuff. Made for human consumption to relieve digestive upset. But somewhere down the line somebody used it ("Off Label Use") on their kitchen appliances to clean them up without scratching them. Then someone else figured that if it was a product made to control acid, why not use it around your lead-acid storage batteries to neutralize spilled acid. How many of you have done that......but that's not it's originally intended use! You are guilty of "Off Label Useage". Geez, what a revelation! What does that have to do with stomach upset? What does anything have to do with anything?


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## rjmoses

My grandparents used to spray their orchards and gardens with pure arsenic. It was the common insecticide and I remember handling 5 lb bags of the stuff.

Nobody ever thought much about breathing it, washing the hands when picking apples, peaches or tomatoes, etc.

Maybe that's why they lived into 80's/90's/100's? Then again....

Ralph


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## FarmerCline

I am not against bending the rules now and then but arsenic is not something I would be playing around with period. For spot spraying selected weeds what would be wrong with using round up.


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## cwright

The question was asked "documented MSMA kill" . As far as I can tell there is no documented kill of animals from its use.

Reading the history of MSMA the stuff has been in use since 1960. I am positive it has been over applied many many times during that time and a lot of it went on a hayfield somewhere. It is labled now for turf grass for golf courses, sod farms and lawns. Certainly the sod does not stay on the farm.

The problem the EPA has with it is over the long term and the amount of Arsenic that would leach into the ground water.

The levels are very low but cumulative and is not toxic.

MSAM is going away and if I had it I would not worry about using it.

Thats just me reading between the lines and am not recommending someone else to use it.

Thats what the original poster was asking and it seems he got mad for not getting a blessing to use it.

CW


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## Texasmark

rjmoses said:


> My grandparents used to spray their orchards and gardens with pure arsenic. It was the common insecticide and I remember handling 5 lb bags of the stuff.
> 
> Nobody ever thought much about breathing it, washing the hands when picking apples, peaches or tomatoes, etc.
> 
> Maybe that's why they lived into 80's/90's/100's? Then again....
> 
> Ralph


I grew up in So. Texas. Lots of rain and lots of mosquitoes. Back then the army surplus equipment was made available to cities. The city where I lived was one of those recipients. I used to spend hours on my bicycle riding around my "hood" after dark as in the summer it was cool and we were too poor to afford AC. Great sport was obtained in riding through the "fog".

I don't remember the night, Wednesday comes to mind, but "anyhew" the war surplus Jeep spray rigs would come through the area and spray DDT. I can't tell you how many hours I rode through that stuff and breathed it.....course I'm not a Federally Protected Bird species...aka the BS of 1917, but I was here before the Pearl Harbor incident and doing a great job of surviving.

So as usual let the crying babies, boo birds whine and gripe and piXX and moan being their usual self. Matters not they will whine regardless. But that's not my problem.

Mark


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## Texasmark

FarmerCline said:


> I am not against bending the rules now and then but arsenic is not something I would be playing around with period. For spot spraying selected weeds what would be wrong with using round up.


Because "SIR" If you would read the directions on the container....bla bla, it doesn't control Yellow Nutsedge. What do you think Glyophospate is? If you don't know, educate yourself so that you can provide an intelligent response!

And on "bending the rules", what rules....SIR?

Mark


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## askinner

somedevildawg said:


> Where you been skinner, your season over down under? Come visit the states.....I'll let you run the tedder for me, I'm tired of running it!
> We've had some kinda rain in the entire eastern half of U.S. if you came towards the end of July....I'd let you run the baler and bandit.....that's about when well be getting this harvest in the books, hopefully...


Yep, all over Dawg  Makes me sadder watching JD's discbine video, would love to be out in the sunshine knocking down some alfalfa, but they've all gone to bed for the winter. Been very wet down here so far, must be all that rain running down the hill from you guys up there. My heart goes out to you all that have been affected by it, nothing worse than watching your hard work getting washed, but, all part of the game, if was all easy, everyone would be doing it!

If you let me run the bandit, I'd be trying to work out how to get it across the water down here, would love one of them contraptions...

Good luck with the rest of your season y'all, not sure what's worse, floods or drought...


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## askinner

I cannot speak for the rest of you, but my farm borders some residential homes, and evertime I spray, I get a filthy look as I drive past them. If I were to have JUST one of them complain to the EPA, and I had been using a product off label, even glypho, I would have just opened myself up to a whole lotta pain and misery, which IMO, just plain aint worth it to control a nuisance that possibly could be controlled another legal way.

Now, does anyone know where I can get a cup holder from for my tractor


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## FarmerCline

Texasmark said:


> Because "SIR" If you would read the directions on the container....bla bla, it doesn't control Yellow Nutsedge. What do you think Glyophospate is? If you don't know, educate yourself so that you can provide an intelligent response!
> 
> And on "bending the rules", what rules....SIR?
> 
> Mark


 Even though the label on glyphosate might not list yellow nutsedge I sprayed it on it about a month ago and got a pretty good kill, some of it came back but I spot sprayed it and it hasn't shown back up yet. I am aware what glyphosate is and to my knowledge it does not contain arsenic. The rules I was talking about is the label, while I believe wholeheartedly in following the label I can see occasionally "bending the rules" such as if it said to wait 30 days after spraying before mowing for hay and it had been 29 days since spraying and the weather was right and the hay needed cut you would probably find me mowing hay. When it comes to off label use such as MSMA on hay and pasture like we are talking about I am completely against that and pretty much all off label use.


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## somedevildawg

askinner said:


> I cannot speak for the rest of you, but my farm borders some residential homes, and evertime I spray, I get a filthy look as I drive past them. If I were to have JUST one of them complain to the EPA, and I had been using a product off label, even glypho, I would have just opened myself up to a whole lotta pain and misery, which IMO, just plain aint worth it to control a nuisance that possibly could be controlled another legal way.
> 
> Now, does anyone know where I can get a cup holder from for my tractor


Give ya that one skinner...too funny...


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## somedevildawg

Texasmark said:


> Did you ever think that the manufacturers of something didn't think of every conceivable application for their product? Think Henry Ford would have thought to add GPS to his perfect Model T? So GPS came along later. So other ways to use a product can come along later. Sooooo. The intent of the Feds is to protect us from ourselves. We need that.
> 
> Take bicarbonate of soda; you know the Arm and Hammer stuff. Made for human consumption to relieve digestive upset. But somewhere down the line somebody used it ("Off Label Use") on their kitchen appliances to clean them up without scratching them. Then someone else figured that if it was a product made to control acid, why not use it around your lead-acid storage batteries to neutralize spilled acid. How many of you have done that......but that's not it's originally intended use! You are guilty of "Off Label Useage". Geez, what a revelation! What does that have to do with stomach upset? What does anything have to do with anything?





Texasmark said:


> I grew up in So. Texas. Lots of rain and lots of mosquitoes. Back then the army surplus equipment was made available to cities. The city where I lived was one of those recipients. I used to spend hours on my bicycle riding around my "hood" after dark as in the summer it was cool and we were too poor to afford AC. Great sport was obtained in riding through the "fog".
> 
> I don't remember the night, Wednesday comes to mind, but "anyhew" the war surplus Jeep spray rigs would come through the area and spray DDT. I can't tell you how many hours I rode through that stuff and breathed it.....course I'm not a Federally Protected Bird species...aka the BS of 1917, but I was here before the Pearl Harbor incident and doing a great job of surviving.
> 
> So as usual let the crying babies, boo birds whine and gripe and piXX and moan being their usual self. Matters not they will whine regardless. But that's not my problem.
> 
> Mark





Texasmark said:


> Because "SIR" If you would read the directions on the container....bla bla, it doesn't control Yellow Nutsedge. What do you think Glyophospate is? If you don't know, educate yourself so that you can provide an intelligent response!
> 
> And on "bending the rules", what rules....SIR?
> 
> Mark


Mark, you musta been burning it from both ends....me too, I'm tired and broke and ain't halfway thru....go get some sleep...I am, it'll hopefully be better in the a.m.


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## Vol

I planted a new to me RR alfalfa field Spring of '12....some nutsedge came up with the alfalfa. By the time the alfalfa was big enough to spray with glyphosate for the first time(several weeks) some of the nutsedge had become very mature. When I did spray gly for the first time it did not kill the mature nutsedge but did yellow it some and most importantly, stopped its growth. The immature nutsedge was pretty much controlled. I continued spraying the gly on about a 6 week interval. After about the 3rd application the nutsedge disappeared and I have not been bothered with it this season.

Regards, Mike


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## Texasmark

somedevildawg said:


> Mark, you musta been burning it from both ends....me too, I'm tired and broke and ain't halfway thru....go get some sleep...I am, it'll hopefully be better in the a.m.


I waited a day and it is.

Thanks

Mark


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