# Thinking about starting



## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I am thinking about starting calves. I am a Junior in high school and have some experience in my grandpa. I have looked into feeding calves from 400 to 700 lbs and there is only $50 in it by the time you figure feed costs in there. I was wondering if there was anything else that was good in cows?


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Where did you come up with the $50 feed number? What are you planning on feeding them?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I was going to feed them milo and some hay bales.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

I'm a bit confused are buying them as weaned calves or buying them at 400# and raising them up to 700# or what?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

buying them at 400#


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

Grateful11 said:


> Where did you come up with the $50 feed number? What are you planning on feeding them?


I am guessing he meant that there is only $50.00 profit with the input $'s he figured in.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

In our area the 300-400# range brings the most per pound. I'm not sure how one could take a calf from 400 to 700 for $50 each. My wife and son have 41 head of Hereford and Black Baldy breeding stock and 1 Hereford bull. I don't know the exact numbers on growing them off to the 300-400# range but I'm fairly certain that around here it cost a lot more than what you thinking it would cost. There's protein supplements that need to be bought to be ground in with the corn and grain grown here. There's necessary minerals, including bagged minerals and trace mineral salt blocks, protein tubs, etc.

I'm not trying to discourage you but there's a lot more to raising healthy top dollar cattle than feeding them milo and some hay.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Ok $50 profit above and beyond what you've put into them. How many are thinking about raising?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

$50 was what was left over when I fed them everything. Sorry I am so confusing


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I was thinking a max of about 20. Is this even possible to make a living or increase my herd size? Also, I would have to borrow money from the bank anyways


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## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

justbad7 said:


> Yes, that is what I meant. Sorry for the confusion


No need to be sorry, you didn't create the confusion. I thought you were very clear about the $50 in it. I don't understand how anybody could take it differently than what you meant.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

What I do to make good money is buy cull cows that dont look that old but arent in great condition at a local auction not many cull buyers attend (they run them through after stockers and sometimes there is only 10) then I bring them home and put them on feed. I can put 200 or 300 pounds on in 3 months. Then I take them to the auction the cull buyers attend. The last load I bought averaged 1228 @ .53 cents a lb totaling $650. I put about 900 lb of feed in them around $250 a ton so feed cost around $120 then I sold them averaging 1546 lb @ .77 totaling $1190. Cost was $770 plus around $80 for trucking and commision. So I cleared about $340 each. This only works if you can get them cheap enough and feed them cheap and have a good market to sell them at. I feed any beef breed cows and holsteins or brown swiss. Whatever I can get some good gain on. You would have to watch your local cow markets for a bit to determine if it would work where you are from. Good luck and I wouldnt buy 400 lb calves because they are more likely to get sick and you have to pay way to much. Maybe buy 700 lb calves and feed them to 1000. Watch your markets and see how they go. I went to sales since I was a little kid so I learned from a young age the best time of year to sell which weight of calves. Another trick is buy older bred cows due soon usually for cheap. Get the calf out and let her raise it if she can then sell the calf and fatten the cow. If she cant feed it have a few calm dairy cows on hand to feed the calves.


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Hold on he didn't even mention that he had a herd at all until post #11. It sounded to me that he would be starting fresh with a new herd of calves. Either that or it's been a long day ;-)


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I think he means the "herd" of calves he intends to buy.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

The "herd" i intend to buy


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Whats the cow market like there?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

What do you mean? Like the prices? the price for steers at ~#400 $250 and #700 is $170


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

I think with you doing a small group of 15-20 you would see better profit at the end doing what Ontario Hay Man is suggesting. Fattening up cull cows will provide better "profit" for a small group. This does however depend strictly on how your cow market is doing as well.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

What do you mean by cow market


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

Cull cows or weigh cows I guess different areas have different names.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

No I mean are there certain auctions that cows sell considerably cheaper then other auctions. And if you go the calf route buy singles. Its not as good for health but you will get them alot cheaper.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

Havnt really looked. Not many good auctions around me. Would have to travel quite a ways to find out


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Is cow calf an option? Get some decent older bred cows for cheap then keep the best heifers out of them for cows and build a herd that way.


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

If your going to borrow the money anyways have you considered doing a loan through the FSA and just going with a cow/calf operation? That's how I originally started was with a youth loan through the FSA when I was a sophomore in high school. I just graduated from college last week and I now have a pretty good size herd built up.


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

Lol hay man beat me to it while I was typing!!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

C & C Cattle and Hay said:


> If your going to borrow the money anyways have you considered doing a loan through the FSA and just going with a cow/calf operation? That's how I originally started was with a youth loan through the FSA when I was a sophomore in high school. I just graduated from college last week and I now have a pretty good size herd built up.


Congrats again C&C on being a College Grad....tough thing to afford to do with this present economy. Good Luck with your beef herd, and keep your nose into the wind and your powder dry. 

Best Regards, Mike


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

Thanks Mike I really appreciate it!

Sincerely,
Cameron


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

justbad7 said:


> What do you mean? Like the prices? the price for steers at ~#400 $250 and #700 is $170


400 lbs @ $2.50 = $1000

300 lbs gain @ .60 =$180

sell 700lbs @ $1.70 = $1190

$10 profit.

Don't work unless you can put the gain on for less then .60 per lb.

And don't forget other costs.Trucking in and out.Meds/vet costs.Selling commission.Interest at the bank.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Thats why I never understand why 4 weights sell so high. Somebody must have a pencil a hell of alot sharper then mine to ever get out on them.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

ontario hay man said:


> Thats why I never understand why 4 weights sell so high. Somebody must have a pencil a hell of alot sharper then mine to ever get out on them.


Some may have pasture or graze wheat to make it more feasible then baled hay .

Some places may also have depressed hay prices so it can work better to feed it then sell it.

Some may also have access to cheap byproducts to help cheapen up the cost of gain.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya but as you pointed out $190 difference? You still have to pay trucking and commision and rent or mortgage. $190 would be eaten up pretty quick. I can background cheap and I wouldnt make money for sure.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

I just typed in kansas auctions on google. I looked at emporia auction. They sell single 4 to 8 weights for $1.00-1.30 you could put a group of singles together on the cheap side and feed them good then sell them as a group.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Have you only looked at feeding cattle? What about other livestock, sheep(lambs) hogs etc. If there is a local market these can be an option. Back when dad bought his land he figured feed steers $50 profit. feed hogs $30 profit per head. Since there is less total input on a hog if one dies he built a hog pen.

If going the cattle route dont get caught up on a certain size of animal or sex. Like you said 400 pounds steers are going for a lot. Maybe 550 pound heifers are selling low on a certain day. Have to watch the market reports and watch a sale for awhile to pick up on these dips in price but if done can result in twice the profit being made per animal,


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

Have you considered finishing and direct marketing in your area? A local beef farmer down the road from me sells em 4.00 lb cut and wrapped. Makes a pretty good living on 50 per year avg. Ontario had some good points as well. He pretty much described how we stocked our dairy. We would buy them out of the cull sale sometimes as low as .23 lb. Once at the barn they would be isolated for 10 days, checked for everything, treated, and fed well. If some tested positive for salmonella or the somatic was too high they may go back immediately or wait till freshen if within a couple weeks. Sometimes we still made a couple bucks on them! We had a pretty good herd last time we did it. Amazing what some foot care fiber in the ration and some good ol sunshine and pasture will do for a bovine. Anyway long way of saying you are getting some good advice on your topic. I agree with almost everything been posted. Good luck with your venture and remember "Buy low-sell high"


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> Is cow calf an option? Get some decent older bred cows for cheap then keep the best heifers out of them for cows and build a herd that way.


We did something similar a few years ago. We bought bred cull cows and let them calve. Then we would sell the calf when weaned. Kept the momma cow until she put on some weight, then sold her.

The down side is the risk of prolapse or other pregnancy issues is greater. You have to look them over real quick as they sell.

We had noticed a trader buying a lot of culls. He leased a pasture close to us and we saw what he was doing. My son did this on a limited budget and made money. He now has about a dozen good cows running with mine. He bought them all with profits from calving out culls.

We would buy poor cows and some sick calves. We just never bought poor and sick.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Maybe it doesnt make sense to anybody else but my theory is the older the cow is the better cow she was therefore the best ones to keep heifers out of. Guys dont keep around the ones that raise piss poor calves very long. So if you see bred cows go through with some age buy them and keep the heifers. Does this make sense to anybody else or is it just another one of my theories that doesnt add up lol.


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## C & C Cattle and Hay (Sep 6, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> Maybe it doesnt make sense to anybody else but my theory is the older the cow is the better cow she was therefore the best ones to keep heifers out of. Guys dont keep around the ones that raise piss poor calves very long. So if you see bred cows go through with some age buy them and keep the heifers. Does this make sense to anybody else or is it just another one of my theories that doesnt add up lol.


Makes perfect sense to me!!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> Maybe it doesnt make sense to anybody else but my theory is the older the cow is the better cow she was therefore the best ones to keep heifers out of. Guys dont keep around the ones that raise piss poor calves very long. So if you see bred cows go through with some age buy them and keep the heifers. Does this make sense to anybody else or is it just another one of my theories that doesnt add up lol.


She did not get to be an old brood cow by being a bad brood cow. Sometimes you look at a smooth mouth cow and see how she may have looked in her prime. Genes are still the same, just the miles have caught up with her.

It can still be a bit of a risk, she may have been let go because of health issues, or finally had her delivery process worn out.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya avoid young cows unless its a dispersal lol.


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## treymo (Dec 29, 2013)

I appreciate your excitement for starting into the cattle business but you've just gotta stick your head into the market and look around! We've got plenty of sales around here, not to mention private treaty sales. Some local auctions would consist of Winter's in Dodge City and Pratt or even La Junta, Colorado. Then there's Russel, Hays, Lacrosse, Salina, and Sylvan Grove for examples. Most of the cow sales are done and gone for the season but there's still some private guys trying to sell a few. I just bought a load of 5&6 year old heavy bred's from a guy in Jetmore a few weeks ago. Just got to look..


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I am going to 3 different auctions this week. I want to get in but just don't know where the money is.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I went to the Quinter Livestock auction today. Only about 50 head, really short and not a lot of buyers.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Did you learn anything?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

Not much, many of them were feeder calves which i am not at all interested in. There was a few cows but again, not what I was interested in. There wernt many buyers either so I don't know if that price is equal or not. The cows were 4 years old and were pregnant about 5 months. Went for about $1700.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

justbad7 said:


> Not much, many of them were feeder calves which i am not at all interested in. There was a few cows but again, not what I was interested in. There wernt many buyers either so I don't know if that price is equal or not. The cows were 4 years old and were pregnant about 5 months. Went for about $1700.


You need to go to sales on a regular basis to get the feel of things.See who the scalpers are.Some even bid up there own cattle.Walk the pens before the sale and check them over.Check the paper work on them and see who's they are.One thing I've learned here is if they don't announce whos cattle they are don't buy them,they are either scalper cattle or the salesbarns that they maybe bought cheap at previous sale.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I went to the Plainville auction today. Much better then Quinter. They had more head and more buyers. I wrote most of everything down, now just need to crunch the numbers


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

Went to the bank today and got a $7500 loan. Grandpa cosigned. Was all good and dandy


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

So what plan are you going with?


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

justbad7 said:


> Went to the bank today and got a $7500 loan. Grandpa cosigned. Was all good and dandy


Good luck.

Personally i would do something differently starting but that's me and that's here totally different area and market.

Lots of good advice here and lots of experienced guys too


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

Getting older cows and calving them out


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

What would you have done griffin


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

My father, brother and I have taken 3 different angles to small time beef. We used to do replacement heifers for dairy, but just not enough guys milking around here to make it work. About 10 years ago I convinced my father it was time to switch to beef. He does dairy beef, ie picks up bull calves and grows them out. Used to ship them to the auction house but about 4 years ago I started selling them as quarters and wholes.

My brother picks up bull calves and raises them to weaning weight and sells them around 400 lbs. He doesn't have a hay operation like my father and I, so this keeps his feed cost low. He doesn't do more than 10 a year but they sell.

I went with a more traditional cow/calf operation when I bought my place last year. Bought a few bred cows a bull and a couple heifers. I've got 8 bred animals now and I'm shooting for 15. I've been selling both quarters/halves and some retail cuts. We just had a new USDA facility open up about 10 miles away, which previously I was hauling animals 2 hours one way, this should help a lot.

But we've got a population who are looking for pasture raised/primarily grass fed beef and are willing to pay for it.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

You might look into niche markets. I know some guys around Salina who are feeding out cattle under an all natural label (no hormones, no antibiotics, etc) then butchering and selling halves and quarters in Kansas City. Turns a decent profit on a very small herd.

Same could apply to grass-fed beef. There are a few ranches doing that in Central Kansas. The Merc in Lawrence is an example of a potential buyer for those types of specialty beef operations, or direct market to the Metro areas. Again, you have to find your market, but sometimes these niches fit a very small herd better. Might be a direction to move to once you get some experience. Research, research, research!

I would also go to the extension website for K-State. They have a ton of publications you can download as .pdf files at no cost. Everything from row crops to livestock to forage production. I use this site all the time.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Ya we do the same thing I dont have many so my wait list is growing every day.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

We went to the lacrosse livestock yesterday and there happened to be 4 perfect cows come through. They brought $1130 a piece and weighed 1024 each. On the way home we stopped by our local vet and had them lived and wormed. We also scourgaurded them for the calves as I won't be home everyday. The vet bill was $22. After the vet, we went to the local elevator and got a tub of crystalyx and a salt bag, mineral bag, and 5 bags of pellets. Don't have the bill yet but I'm hoping it's not to much.
View attachment 1439
View attachment 1440


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Thats not a bad how long are they bred?


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

They are in their last trimester, almost perfect for what I was looking at


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

They look a bit light but they will go on good. Good buy


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## Dill (Nov 5, 2010)

I wish my vet was that cheap. Heck I'm lucky to have a large animal vet that will touch a cow around here.

Good luck, your price sounds good.


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## justbad7 (Oct 2, 2013)

I wanted them lighted so I could put on some weight and then resell them later and get most of my money back out of the cow


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

I was going along with what Dill was saying about dairy beef. Here you can get bull calves for 50-100 dollars right off the farm. If we had more room i'd raise some up to feeders. We are in a dairy area with some beef farms so we get good price for dairy beef. Your in beef country so i don't know the market for dairy beef is or availability of dairy bull calves.

Congratulations on you purchase. A wise one i must say. You'll learn alot no better way to learn about the cow business than by doing.

Purchasing anymore?

Need to get connections with some other farmers and maybe buy from them and maybe save some money. Just a though.


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