# Green Horn looking for help



## HayBones

Hello guys and gals, I have been watching the forum for a little while now slowly growing my knowledge in hay production. My wife and I bought a farm ( 70 acres workable) and are planing on a cow/calf operation. The land was used to grow tobacco from the early 70's untill the mid 90's and was then converted to cash crops of soy beans and corn alternating anually. We plan to turn all the cash crop into hay and pasture to provide for our cattle. The corn will be off soon and i am thinking it would be good to do some tilledge work on it this fall to help the corn decompose sooner? The farmer who rented it off us for the year put down a healthy amout of lime last fall to help the PH levels. The soil I am dealing with is sandy loam. If I am understanding what I read correctly, I believe I have to create a soil bed of 6-12'' to establish my hay. I am under the impression that the corn clumps and plant matter should be all smoothed out and of consistant texture before I think about seeding hay? I am also going to be testing the soil for PH and pesticide levels with the help of my local hay seed pro's as well. If someone with some experiance could kindly offer some order to direction I would really appreciate the help!! I think I should run over the field atleast once before the freeze sets in then maybe once again after the thaw, I will be determining my variety this winter so that is ready to go come spring. I am a little concerned I might miss some important step here and not be able to sew come spring????? Thanks, Bryan.


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## vhaby

Mention of tobacco production implies your location may be similar to NC. Please go to your profile and enter an approximate location so that correct advice may be given.


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## Josh in WNY

One thing you might want to do is find out what sort of herbicide the previous farmer used on the corn/soybeans. If it was roundup, there shouldn't be any problems. If it was something else that has a residule effect, it could cause problems with establishing you seeding.

One other thing, where are you located? Advise is going to change a bit depending on your location.

Good luck.


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## HayBones

Awesome some feed back already!! I am in South Western Ontario, specifically Norfolk County aka tobacco country. I will be talking to my renter today so I will ask about the previous herbicide use. My main concern is should the corn field be tilled up once before the snow flies? Again I really appreciate the help!


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## HayBones

Ok I just got off the phone with my renter. He told me since the land is so soft aka sandy he said its best to leave the field sit idle post corn harvest and wait untill spring to avoid erosion and nutrient depletion. The only herebicide use in the last few years has been round up and he suggested that wont be an issue for planting the hay & pasture. He took soil samples last fall and added a lot of lime to help with poor PH levels and said that it will further benefit our requirments. I asked his opinion on tillege and discing and he said to just no till plant the hay and pasture but I am worried I might not get a thick healthy soil bed this way?


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## Josh in WNY

For the pasture, I think no-till would be fine. For the hay field itself, I would prefer to refit it by plowing it under and going from there. I would at the minimum run over it with a cultimulcher. The reason that I say this is most hay equipment likes smooth ground to work on. If the field is rough, you will probably be spending some time every hay season fixing the mower, rakes, etc. You may also end up the crop residue (from the corn) in the first cutting of the hay which may not help you market the hay.

When are you planning on getting your cattle? If you are going to run them on the pasture next summer, you might want to do a nurse crop of oats (or something else that comes up quick) so that the grass you plant doesn't get eaten before it is established.


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## HayBones

Josh in WNY said:


> For the pasture, I think no-till would be fine. For the hay field itself, I would prefer to refit it by plowing it under and going from there. I would at the minimum run over it with a cultimulcher. The reason that I say this is most hay equipment likes smooth ground to work on. If the field is rough, you will probably be spending some time every hay season fixing the mower, rakes, etc. You may also end up the crop residue (from the corn) in the first cutting of the hay which may not help you market the hay.
> 
> When are you planning on getting your cattle? If you are going to run them on the pasture next summer, you might want to do a nurse crop of oats (or something else that comes up quick) so that the grass you plant doesn't get eaten before it is established.


I agree that the hay field area should likely be processed into one smooth consistant media before planting, the only risk would be having high winds for an extended period while waiting for the cover to establish. The hay I produce will be stored for feed for my cattle so if there is some corn residue in it, it shouldnt be a major concern. As far as the pasture is concerned at best it would be late fall 2013 before any cattle are on the land so healthy establishment shouldnt be an issue. Do you recommend cutting the pasture and leaving the grass to decay as an added source of nutrients or could I utilize this cut product in the form as pasture round bales? If I dont have any cattle on the pasture area all of next years growing season I am assuming I will have to do some sort of maintainance to the grass at some point correct?


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## wileyjd

i would hay the pasture ground at least once during the summer this will help with weed control and also would be a useable product to feed your cows with if you have extra the hay would be sold with little problem for feed


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## deadmoose

wileyjd said:


> i would hay the pasture ground at least once during the summer this will help with weed control and also would be a useable product to feed your cows with if you have extra the hay would be sold with little problem for feed


+1.


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## carcajou

If it was mine i would at least disk it this fall. The firmer the soil the easier it is to establish a hay stand. Are your fields overly dry? The more prep you can do now the better it will be for planting next year. You only have one chance to get a field smooth before you make countless passes haying, take the time needed to get it right. All the best with your new farm!!


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## Vol

carcajou said:


> If it was mine i would at least disk it this fall. The firmer the soil the easier it is to establish a hay stand. Are your fields overly dry? The more prep you can do now the better it will be for planting next year. You only have one chance to get a field smooth before you make countless passes haying, take the time needed to get it right. All the best with your new farm!!


Ray has nailed it here....you only get one chance to do it right and his advice about discing and a firm planting seed bed are critical. A smooth field is a pleasure to work an a rough field is almost always much slower to operate on.

Regards, Mike


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## HayBones

carcajou said:


> If it was mine i would at least disk it this fall. The firmer the soil the easier it is to establish a hay stand. Are your fields overly dry? The more prep you can do now the better it will be for planting next year. You only have one chance to get a field smooth before you make countless passes haying, take the time needed to get it right. All the best with your new farm!!


I would like to disc and roll pack this fall however the land here is very sandy. If we don't get a good snow pack I am worried about having my nutrients blow away with the wind? A solution may be to go over it as many times as it takes in the spring and sew immediatly after its tilled and smoth ect.....??


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## HayBones

wileyjd said:


> i would hay the pasture ground at least once during the summer this will help with weed control and also would be a useable product to feed your cows with if you have extra the hay would be sold with little problem for feed


Thanks, that is what I had in mind but hearing it from others helps build confidence in my decisions!


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## gradyjohn

Plowing 6 - 12" - 4-6 is better the more you bury the corn stalks the longer it takes to decompose. Generally plow with a primary disk, depending on the crop residue a secondary disknig might be needed then a field cultivator and smooth it out. Drill the seed and pray for rain. Running cattle on ground used for time will give you a rough field over time. They also will creat trails in the field. I don't know what kind of grass you plant up there ... check with your extension agent.


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## HayBones

gradyjohn said:


> Plowing 6 - 12" - 4-6 is better the more you bury the corn stalks the longer it takes to decompose. Generally plow with a primary disk, depending on the crop residue a secondary disknig might be needed then a field cultivator and smooth it out. Drill the seed and pray for rain. Running cattle on ground used for time will give you a rough field over time. They also will creat trails in the field. I don't know what kind of grass you plant up there ... check with your extension agent.


Thanks for the input, the land itself is pretty smooth already so that's a bonus! I am going to try and do the top 4/6" with either primary disc(s) or rent a specialized tillidge tool to do the same job. I am working on a deal for my own machine ( 2011 6230 4x4 cab/loader ect) so I am hoping I will get to do the work! I have done winter rye before as well as lots of tobacco style operating but it's been a few years....


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## brandenburgcattle42

I am a little late getting into this discusion, but from my cattle experience for you pastures you may want to consider different grasses for differnt times of the year. I am renovating in steps all of my pastures gettig rid of the toxic fescue and putting warm season grasses such as orchard and festuolleum jn my summer pasture so they grow well in the heat and, a mix of those plus brome grass which is more of a cool season grass in my fall pastures. i hay all my fall pastures first of the year for weed ckntrol and better regrowth keep the dead grass off. I also like to have a 40% mix of legumes this helps with animal nutrition tremendously especially this year when that was the only green stuff out there. A blend of alfalfa and three year red clover is great the red clover will help supply nitrogen to your grasses. We frost seed the clover every other winter. We typicall hay our re seeded pastures for three year before we graze them to help establish a great sod base because cattle on new grass when its wet is a disaster. Might as well go plant weeds the next spring. So dry loting your cattle or keeping them in a small paddock to maintain good health and calving conditions and feeding hay for a couple years may be a good option by cutting and baling pasture allows you to monitor weeds and make sure fertility is in order. Pastures that produce is just as important as your hay fields may mean the difference in running 20 head to being able to sustain 30 head. More profit for you. Lastly and i am done, running a chain harrow across your pasture after you are done grazing is the best way to kepp your pasture very healthy they dethatch and get all the manure clumps dispersed so they dont kill patched all over. Good Luck hope this helps.


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## HayBones

brandenburgcattle42 said:


> I am a little late getting into this discusion, but from my cattle experience for you pastures you may want to consider different grasses for differnt times of the year. I am renovating in steps all of my pastures gettig rid of the toxic fescue and putting warm season grasses such as orchard and festuolleum jn my summer pasture so they grow well in the heat and, a mix of those plus brome grass which is more of a cool season grass in my fall pastures. i hay all my fall pastures first of the year for weed ckntrol and better regrowth keep the dead grass off. I also like to have a 40% mix of legumes this helps with animal nutrition tremendously especially this year when that was the only green stuff out there. A blend of alfalfa and three year red clover is great the red clover will help supply nitrogen to your grasses. We frost seed the clover every other winter. We typicall hay our re seeded pastures for three year before we graze them to help establish a great sod base because cattle on new grass when its wet is a disaster. Might as well go plant weeds the next spring. So dry loting your cattle or keeping them in a small paddock to maintain good health and calving conditions and feeding hay for a couple years may be a good option by cutting and baling pasture allows you to monitor weeds and make sure fertility is in order. Pastures that produce is just as important as your hay fields may mean the difference in running 20 head to being able to sustain 30 head. More profit for you. Lastly and i am done, running a chain harrow across your pasture after you are done grazing is the best way to kepp your pasture very healthy they dethatch and get all the manure clumps dispersed so they dont kill patched all over. Good Luck hope this helps.


Thanks Branden, all the points you made seem like great advice and are not the first time I have read of these practises. I will be working with a local hay/forage agronomist as well as a local long horn producer who only pastures cattle right to finish so the combination of these peoples opinions should help alot with selecting varieties for year round pasture. Interesting to hear that you utilize different pastures for different seasons rather then mix a variety of seeds to help work year round. My initial plan was to be sure to use LOTS of pasture rotation and keep a close eye to limit too much traffic or nutrients or letting them eat down any specific spot too much? I will be starting off with only a small number of cattle (10/15) and if I am lucky I will be able to have them by fall 2013, my main concern is getting good hay/pasture established before _I get any cattle. I will deffinatly be adding a healthy percentage of legumes into the variety for the same reasons you mentioned. I am not to sure I will ever run into a mud issue on the farm as its a very unique soil here( sandy loam) and most producers locally never seem to have much of a mud issue so I am hoping that will help with regard to pasture damage ect....Thanks again, _
_Bryan. _


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## brandenburgcattle42

Sounds like you have a great handle on things and illinois is a whole different animal than where you are from. Not all ranches are the same, just remember you do what works for you and let nobody else say different. Thats my theory, i read a lot and try to learn and imply it into my operation. Some input works good, and others will never work. Good luck in you future endevors.


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## HayBones

For an update I have decided to hire out my fall corn residue tillage needs. A buddy of mine is huge into row crop farming and is going to use his 50' Salford RTS immplement that is specially designed for our sandy soil. I am still waiting for my leasee to harvest the corn as now mother nature has decided she will let it rain all fall when its not going to do much good as far as this season is concerned. I am still in debates wether or not I should do a quick pass on my 80 acre field that was beans this year or just wait and do that seed bed prep in the spring as the bean residue should be easily taken care of? Once my fields have been harvested I am planning on collecting soil samples and then trying to decide on what variety of seeds will best suit our needs. If the fall goes late and stays warm like it has been there may also be an opertunity to work on the PH levels before the frost sets in......


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## Byron Seeds

_High quality pasture and hay fields will pay for themselves very quick. After a major drough diversity is key. Don't seed monocultures, get a good mix. Firm seedbeds are key. Check out some different pasture mixes at Fertileforage.com_


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## HayBones

Byron Seeds said:


> _High quality pasture and hay fields will pay for themselves very quick. After a major drough diversity is key. Don't seed monocultures, get a good mix. Firm seedbeds are key. Check out some different pasture mixes at Fertileforage.com_


Thanks for the info I will take a look! A couple people have mentioned "firm" seedbeds, can you elaborate on this a little more? Sorry I am new and a little description could go a long ways....Thanks again, Bryan.


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## Byron Seeds

You should be able to walk and not sink in. if your seedbed isnt firm them when it rains the seed will be buried. When I seed a new field the tractor does not sink in it just marks the soil. I pull a cultipacker behind the disk and then use a brillian seeder to seed. I have use a spinner seeder to seed, then just pull the packer back over the field.


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## deadmoose

Byron Seeds said:


> You should be able to walk and not sink in. if your seedbed isnt firm them when it rains the seed will be buried. When I seed a new field the tractor does not sink in it just marks the soil. I pull a cultipacker behind the disk and then use a brillian seeder to seed. I have use a spinner seeder to seed, then just pull the packer back over the field.


This makes sense as to why I had a few acres out of a 20 ac field that didn't take well. Soil was very loose there and shortly after planting with a brillion got a very heavy rain. Thanks for the info.


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## HayBones

Byron Seeds said:


> You should be able to walk and not sink in. if your seedbed isnt firm them when it rains the seed will be buried. When I seed a new field the tractor does not sink in it just marks the soil. I pull a cultipacker behind the disk and then use a brillian seeder to seed. I have use a spinner seeder to seed, then just pull the packer back over the field.


Thanks for the clarification!! This could prove to be somewhat of a challenge as my land is quite soft and there is corn on half of it now. I plan to run over the corn with a Salford RTS as soon as it is harvested, then in the spring I will have to either use the RTS again and cultipack behind it or make a couple light passes through with a more traditional primary/secondary tillage then pack. I am a bit nervous about the success because it relies on so many variables but there are great looking pastures and hay fields in this region so I am going to try and remain confident that its going to turn out ok!


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## HayBones

Hello again guys and gals, just wanted to say I'm still active on the board and appreciate this fine tool very much! Still busy prepping my land for spring pasture and hay ground. I'd like to wish everyone a safe and very merry Christmas/New Year. Cheers!!

HB


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## kyfred

HayBones Stay active on Haytalk. I'm anxious to see how everything turns out. I guess getting away from the hay I didn't know there was a long enough growing season in Canada to grow tobacco for one thing I have learned from your posts. I live in Northern KY and was wondering if Burley or what type of tobacco is grown there. 
Enjoy your posts Happy New Year
kyfred


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