# Self propelled or new moco?



## KYBRONCO (Aug 21, 2013)

Since I have made it thru my drama with NH, I am having trouble deciding which direction to go. I really like my two moco's with impellers, but not in the alfalfa. I thought of trading one for a new moco with rollers, but I know JD is going to be tough to deal with. For some reason, I have always wanted to own a self propelled windrower. They just look neat. I have found some used ones on the house and fastline. I cannot justify a new rotary type self propelled. I could look close at an older sickle machine. For about what JD is going ask difference on a new moco, I can buy a used sickle selfie. I really need the roller conditioners. Obviously with less than 50 acres of alfalfa, I am hardly a commercial producer. More like a weekender. We do about 500 5x6 rolls of grass, so you see why I like the impellers. I just hate to go and buy another moco with rollers for no more than I will "need" it for in the alfalfa.

How well will the sickle do in alfalfa? Dealers up north are saying that's all they use up there, but they are slower.

Will the self cut thick fescue without clogging up the head?

Forgive me, but I have never been around one, but would love to have one, I think. 

Any advice or experience is appreciated!


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

When you say sickle are you talking about a haybine? If you are it is what I prefer. A guy I bought standing hay from said he prefered to cut it. So he goes and cuts it with the discbine. It took a day and a half longer to dry then the same hay I cut beside his field and mine was heavier. Im sure it will start an arguement with others on here but when you go 6+ mph the machine doesnt have time to properly condition it. I dont care if its rollers or impellers it cant do it proper. I cut between 4 and 5 mph and can cut 50 acres on a not to long of day (8 hours). I have a 1465 and 488 nh neighbor has a jd cant remember number maybe 720 or something like that? We both like our machine. Hope that helps.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I wouldn't do a sickle machine machine again no way no how. The reason you can get them cheap is that there aren't nearly as many buyers for a sickle machine now. Especially since you do a lot of grass hay you should stay away from a sickle. Better to stick with a disc PT.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Teslan said:


> I wouldn't do a sickle machine machine again no way no how. The reason you can get them cheap is that there aren't nearly as many buyers for a sickle machine now. Especially since you do a lot of grass hay you should stay away from a sickle. Better to stick with a disc PT.


Whats wrong with doing grass with a sickle? Works great for me


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

ontario hay man said:


> Whats wrong with doing grass with a sickle? Works great for me


Let's see. When we had a NH SP haybine before the rotary swather. We could only go about 2-3 mph instead of the 10mph now with no worries. The conditioners would plug up quite often. Always had to be replacing sections and the whole sickle bar before each cutting. Had to pay very very close attention to make sure it wouldn't plug up in heavy hay. Then if the hay was laying down or a little tough sometimes you could only cut one way. 2nd and 3rd cuttings we had to only cut when the sun was shining bright or more plugs would happen. The sickle swathers I have tried with augers are even worse! Possibly our grass hay here is different then yours? I would rather have a PT disc swather then a sp sickle swather. And I've never even ran a PT disc mower I dislike the idea of going back to sickles that much.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Must be different. I have pt sickles and they work fine if the hay is down no machine will get it very good


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## KYBRONCO (Aug 21, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> When you say sickle are you talking about a haybine? If you are it is what I prefer. A guy I bought standing hay from said he prefered to cut it. So he goes and cuts it with the discbine. It took a day and a half longer to dry then the same hay I cut beside his field and mine was heavier. Im sure it will start an arguement with others on here but when you go 6+ mph the machine doesnt have time to properly condition it. I dont care if its rollers or impellers it cant do it proper. I cut between 4 and 5 mph and can cut 50 acres on a not to long of day (8 hours). I have a 1465 and 488 nh neighbor has a jd cant remember number maybe 720 or something like that? We both like our machine. Hope that helps.


Yes, I am talking about a sickle type self propelled haybine. I am suggesting keeping my impellers pt discbines for the grass and just having a small self prop for the alfalfa. Dont know if this makes any sense, but i just cant get past wanting a little miniature combine, LOL>


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

KYBRONCO said:


> Yes, I am talking about a sickle type self propelled haybine. I am suggesting keeping my impellers pt discbines for the grass and just having a small self prop for the alfalfa. Dont know if this makes any sense, but i just cant get past wanting a little miniature combine, LOL>


Sickles do make a nice cut with alfalfa. So do rotaries, but they have to be run just right to be close to a sickle cut.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

KYBRONCO said:


> Yes, I am talking about a sickle type self propelled haybine. I am suggesting keeping my impellers pt discbines for the grass and just having a small self prop for the alfalfa. Dont know if this makes any sense, but i just cant get past wanting a little miniature combine, LOL>


Why not get a pt I was thinking of sp to but then you have to worry about another motor, trans etc. In my opinion it would be alot cheaper and less headache also probably a third of the cost.


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## KYBRONCO (Aug 21, 2013)

ontario hay man said:


> Why not get a pt I was thinking of sp to but then you have to worry about another motor, trans etc. In my opinion it would be alot cheaper and less headache also probably a third of the cost.


JUST PERSONAL PREFERENCE I GUESS.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

He don't want a pt....yolo..... find you a good one and get it if you can afford it.....I'd love to have a sp discbine just can't justify it for my operation....I've always heard you guys say the sickles and rollers work great for alfalfa so...why not, has A/C right...


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

It was just a suggestion because he just returned a pt. They are more practical in my mind because your paying alot more for a motor to sit around a do nothin 10 months a year with a sp.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

I alfalfa, you will like the sickle. Our sp swathers would run every bit as fast in alfalfa as our later disc conditioners would. Grass was a different story, rotary was many times faster. Our NH dealer told us the same thing, if you cut alfalfa stick with the sickle, if you cut grass go to the rotary.

Can your mocos be converted to rollers? I'd look at the Circle C rollers for your existing machines if possible.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

He must not of had his conditioner set right. My discbine with flails next to a neighbours sickle haybine (489) - not much difference in drydown except where they take 4 hours to mow, I got it done in less than 2 hours for the same acres, so I get 2 hours more drying. By the time they get done mowing I've got good wilt on the sun exposed layer and can hitch up the tedder.



ontario hay man said:


> It took a day and a half longer to dry then the same hay I cut beside his field and mine was heavier.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

KYBRONCO said:


> I really like my two moco's with impellers, but not in the alfalfa. I thought of trading one for a new moco with rollers, but I know JD is going to be tough to deal with. For some reason, I have always wanted to own a self propelled windrower. They just look neat. I have found some used ones on the house and fastline. I cannot justify a new rotary type self propelled. I could look close at an older sickle machine.
> 
> How well will the sickle do in alfalfa? Dealers up north are saying that's all they use up there, but they are slower.
> 
> Will the self cut thick fescue without clogging up the head?


I agree with you, self propelled machines look neat and look like you could do much less walking on hay that has been cut. I don't do alfalfa, but you could not give me a sickle machine anymore. Had a 489NH as an upgrade to a 451 mower. Thought I had died and gone to heaven. Then got a discbine and knew I had an in with st peter. NO MORE SOCKS, EVER. Sooo, guess if I was snake bit on NH and loved Deere, I would look to sell one of your impellers and go to a JD roll machine-or you could do what I am thinking of doing and going all Krone next spring with a disc conditioner to go with my rake and tedder-just thinking at this point but also since I do all grass, also thinking of impeller conditioning. By going 3-4mph, I have no issues with clean cuts adn am not wearing anything out-including myself!


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

KYBRONCO said:


> Yes, I am talking about a sickle type self propelled haybine. I am suggesting keeping my impellers pt discbines for the grass and just having a small self prop for the alfalfa. Dont know if this makes any sense, but i just cant get past wanting a little miniature combine, LOL>


I just got rid of my NH1499 SP haybine. Ergonomics are awesome. Cut speed sucks. 
Can't cut anything even slightly damp or you will be playing tug of war with a huge mattress size we slug that has plugged your machine while laying on your side in bugs and mud. 
PT Discbine is much more practical. SP haybine is more ergonomic. 
PT Discbine cheaper to maintain, more reliable-no engine, transmission, etc. 
SP Haybine is a big, gangly thing that's wide going down the road and requires prettytall shed space. My 12' header was 13'-6" wide. 
I realize some of you guys have family farms and large barns. I'm a commercial farmer with only a little storage space. SP rarely seemed to fit inside anywhere. 
SP is useless for anything else except cutting crop. A tractor and a PT discbine has a lot of versatility since tractor can do many things. 
MY SP haybine was a money pit, but I still liked it a lot in terms of ergonomics and maneuverability.

I'm going to move to a SP discbine someday in the future if things go my way....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ontario hay man said:


> Im sure it will start an arguement with others on here but when you go 6+ mph the machine doesnt have time to properly condition it. I dont care if its rollers or impellers it cant do it proper. I cut between 4 and 5 mph and can cut 50 acres on a not to long of day (8 hours).


I cut all the time at 11mph with my discbine and it's usually dry's a day faster than anybody else's, but I'm also running rollers from Circle C.

I'm betting he didn't have his roll gap set properly or didn't have enough tension.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I can't comment on how a sickle machine will cut alfalfa but to answer your question of will it cut thick grass....the answer is yes it will cut it good if the machine has stub guards although you will have to go slower. If it has the regular guards forget about using it in grass.

I found this out when I bought a NH 1465 haybine last year....I had previously been using a straight disc mower but could not get quick enough dry down so that is why I bought a haybine. When I bought it had the regular guards and I went to cut some thick orchard/fescue mix and it absolutely would not cut.....I would go 10 feet and the guards would be plugged and it was extremely aggrevating. During the winter I had it converted to stub guards because they were not supposed to plug as easily. I was very skeptical when I went to the field this spring because it was extremely thick, wet, and lodged bad, I never would have thought that it would have cut but it did and to my surprise it never plugged once. I was not however able to as fast as I could with a disc mower.....about 4 mph seemed to work good.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> I can't comment on how a sickle machine will cut alfalfa but to answer your question of will it cut thick grass....the answer is yes it will cut it good if the machine has stub guards although you will have to go slower. If it has the regular guards forget about using it in grass.
> I found this out when I bought a NH 1465 haybine last year....I had previously been using a straight disc mower but could not get quick enough dry down so that is why I bought a haybine. When I bought it had the regular guards and I went to cut some thick orchard/fescue mix and it absolutely would not cut.....I would go 10 feet and the guards would be plugged and it was extremely aggrevating. During the winter I had it converted to stub guards because they were not supposed to plug as easily. I was very skeptical when I went to the field this spring because it was extremely thick, wet, and lodged bad, I never would have thought that it would have cut but it did and to my surprise it never plugged once. I was not however able to as fast as I could with a disc mower.....about 4 mph seemed to work good.


I concure, I have been struggling with a 1465 all year with regular guards. And this was an upgrade. Forget it in wet thick hay. It's been so bad that I have been having a friend cut the late first cut with his discbine. 
I started a thread on stub guards and the result was to go with stub guards foe grass hay. 
If I can't afford a discbine I'm defiantly going with the stub guards for next year. Unfortunately I will still only be able to do around 4mph. As mentioned above that makes a huge difference. It's hard to be in a field all day cutting and when your done you get to the edge where you started and the hay is almost dry.


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## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

We use both disc bines and hay bines in grass hay but our coastal is a little different than y'all's northern grasses. On our smooth fields we usually run 2 9' disc bines but the rougher ones I use the 1475 with the 16 foot header cause you're going to have to go slower anyways. But in smooth ground and about 2 tons an acre I can run right at 5mph with the 1475 with zero problems. So you can lay some hay down either way but if I had to choose I would go with the 1475 because it's center piviot and I seem like I get more done in a day than running disc mowers. The haybine cuts better most of the time too. 
No doubt we will always have the disc cutters and use them a lot but we are planning on going to a H7150 or an H8040


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## GawasFarm (Jul 10, 2013)

I have always wanted a SP discbine.....but boy are the expensive. If you can find a cheap machine to only run the 50 acres of alfalfa and you have some storage space I say go for it. You may not like it and in a couple of years want something different but at least you did it. I just cut some heavy 2nd cut alfalfa that broke a haybine with my discbine and what a difference from my mower to theirs. This was lodged alfalfa pretty good yield. Where the haybine cut it was almost like the stalks where being stripped of the leaves it just couldn't get the stalks cut. my mower came along cut it almost clean. Only trouble I had was going with the wind lodging I started leaving little stalks but my knives were also getting quite dull as there where some dirt mounds I was slicing through.

They all work good if you understand the machine and operate it in the way it is supposed to be run. Now of course that doesn't always work with how people manage their operation. It would drive my nuts to only run 2-4 mph cutting hay I want it down, baled, and in the barn. On the other side people around me think I am loony and going to break all my equipment because I run 8mph cutting with my 1411. They are happy putting through the field. Both systems work for the people using them.

What I think would be sweet is a tractor setup with a front hitch and one of those 30 foot mowers! That way I could still use the tractor. Or a mower on the front and a PT behind. I like the though of cutting 20 feet into 2 windrows for faster dry down over a single SP cutting say a 14 or 16 foot. I don't ted so it makes a difference for me.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

A couple of questions that you need to answer - do you get a heavy dew from time to time, and does your alfalfa ever lay flat on the ground. Do you have a tendency to cut it when it's still wet and slimy at the bottom of the stalks? Or with only 50 acres can you pick and choose when you'll cut?

If you can pick and choose, and you never get a heavy dew, and your alfalfa NEVER gets blown over, then a sickle will be fine.

You prefer the impellers over the rubber rolls...... have you ever contemplated steel rolls? Have you completely ruled out rubber rolls? Rubber rolls do the best in alfalfa, steel rolls do OK, and impellers do awful. Its kinda wasteful to buy an SP machine for *just* 50 acres, when another PT machine (you wanna update anyway) would do just fine with steel or rubber rolls. 50 acres divided by 4 acres per hour, is 12.5 hours x 5 cuttings(?) per year is only 62.5 hours, and if you only cut things 4 times its just 50 hours.

Rodney


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

mlappin said:


> I cut all the time at 11mph with my discbine and it's usually dry's a day faster than anybody else's, but I'm also running rollers from Circle C.
> I'm betting he didn't have his roll gap set properly or didn't have enough tension.


His had impellers so idk but I do know he was driving like a madman dad just shook his head at him. We dont use tedders because we are usually on sand or gravel type fields so we just rake 2 into 1 morning of baling. It could be that he lays it oit wider then mine and the tractor wheels tramp it down but idk thats just what my experience is.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

DSLinc1017 said:


> I concure, I have been struggling with a 1465 all year with regular guards. And this was an upgrade. Forget it in wet thick hay. It's been so bad that I have been having a friend cut the late first cut with his discbine.
> I started a thread on stub guards and the result was to go with stub guards foe grass hay.
> If I can't afford a discbine I'm defiantly going with the stub guards for next year. Unfortunately I will still only be able to do around 4mph. As mentioned above that makes a huge difference. It's hard to be in a field all day cutting and when your done you get to the edge where you started and the hay is almost dry.


 I think you would be pleased with the stub guards if you go that route. After the wet, lodged crop I cut this year I don't see how you can plug stub guards. I could even cut with a heavy dew and it didnt bother it. If the crop isn't laying flat on the ground like this years was you might could cut a little faster than 4 mph. I didnt want to push it because the chain that drives the reel was worn bad and would jump on the sprocket if the reel got loaded more....I replaced the chain now....I would have done it before hay season had I realized it was in that bad of shape.

If you decide to go with a discbine next year and get rid of your haybine and if your haybine is in real nice shape I might would be interested in it to have a second machine.


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## KYBRONCO (Aug 21, 2013)

Thanks for the input guys. I am thinking the SP haybine, may be a litte too slow and tedious for my operation. I work at a power plant and have to "make hay when I'm off". Plus shipping and inspection in the far west are a big problem. I cant go look at the machines, and i hate to buy sight unseen. I may buy a real cheap (3500) one just to have to play with. I am in the middle of trying to find a used JD moco with rollers that I am goign to fit with circle c rollers. everyone on here praises them. We will see how this goes.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

KYBRONCO said:


> Thanks for the input guys. I am thinking the SP haybine, may be a litte too slow and tedious for my operation. I work at a power plant and have to "make hay when I'm off". Plus shipping and inspection in the far west are a big problem. I cant go look at the machines, and i hate to buy sight unseen. I may buy a real cheap (3500) one just to have to play with. I am in the middle of trying to find a used JD moco with rollers that I am goign to fit with circle c rollers. everyone on here praises them. We will see how this goes.


Surprised there isn't an old Nh1499 or JD3430 in your area.
Gonna cost you 12k for a good diesel powered SP haybine that don't need a lot of work.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Yea, you'd have to do a lot of talking to get our 1499 for 12k, and we hardly use it. For $3500, I'd laugh. A $3500 machine is going to be a pile of junk - you have to remember, there are a lot of moving parts on an SP, and it is not cheap to replace any hydraulic motors or pumps (for the drive wheels). But if you are dead set on getting an SP, make sure you get one with wide rolls, and not the 60 some inch ones that came from the far west.

Rodney


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Rodney R said:


> Yea, you'd have to do a lot of talking to get our 1499 for 12k, and we hardly use it. For $3500, I'd laugh. A $3500 machine is going to be a pile of junk - you have to remember, there are a lot of moving parts on an SP, and it is not cheap to replace any hydraulic motors or pumps (for the drive wheels). But if you are dead set on getting an SP, make sure you get one with wide rolls, and not the 60 some inch ones that came from the far west.
> 
> Rodney


If you watch what they actually sell for instead of using Tractorhouse as the gospel truth, I'd laugh at $3500 AND at 12k. It's somewhere in the middle.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I paid 11k for mine. I watched the 1499's for a while. The ones under 10k were piles of junk.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> I think you would be pleased with the stub guards if you go that route. After the wet, lodged crop I cut this year I don't see how you can plug stub guards. I could even cut with a heavy dew and it didnt bother it. If the crop isn't laying flat on the ground like this years was you might could cut a little faster than 4 mph. I didnt want to push it because the chain that drives the reel was worn bad and would jump on the sprocket if the reel got loaded more....I replaced the chain now....I would have done it before hay season had I realized it was in that bad of shape.
> If you decide to go with a discbine next year and get rid of your haybine and if your haybine is in real nice shape I might would be interested in it to have a second machine.


I will certainly let you know if I decide to sell. My 1465 is in great shape. If reality holds true, (and the wife is a big part of reality). I will not be able to get a a discbine, but will be able to upgrade to stub guards. On the flip side I have gotten a few comments like "you were out there all day and that's all you cut? ". If that continues then that dream discbine is in my future!


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Dslink.... it took you HOW long to cut??? Wow


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

DSlink, you were out there cutting for how many hours and you only cut that many acres? Unbelievable.....


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Dslink....I cut three fields today for about 100 acres....you only cut how much?


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hope it helps....


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## simmy (Apr 12, 2013)

I guess not many Mac Don owners here but I'll tell you what they are really hard to beat. I run two Mac Don 4000 sickle bar conditioners in both alfalfa and heavy timothy and clover and never had any problems.


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## KYBRONCO (Aug 21, 2013)

Found a real good deal on a Hesston 8250s, with 16' sickle head. anybody had any experience with a hesston sp haybine? Also looking at some macdon machines.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Avoid the SP's with the narrow short rollers. I liked that my Nh1499 had wide rolls. Lots of room for crop to go through.
SP haybines clog. Even in light morning dew, clogs will happen. They happen in just a few seconds and they are a bitch to clear out, too. 
Maybe alfalfa is different.


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