# round vs square



## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

I am torn between going with large squares or rounds. I can see pro's and con's of each, just thought I would see what everyone experience was with either.


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## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

Depends on the size tractor you currently own, it takes I believe a minimum of 175 hp to run a large square baler, and around 45 to 50 hp to run a small round baler. That in itself should help you make a decision just based on your current equipment. Then you should check your market, if your planning on selling the hay and produce what sells in your area. I hope that helps a little.


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

I have a JD 4630, and a JD 4440. HP isn't really an issue, I can run a 3x3 with the 4630 and run my small square or a round with the 4440. I don't have much experience with either rounds or large squares. I assume the round would be less maintenance, probably less fuel use based on the HP requirements.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Well the rounds have a smaller initial investment the baler, bale fork, trailer (this is assuming you have the cutter and rake). and a place to put them they don't HAVE to be inside. If you are feeding them your self then market and transportation is not a major concern. I have no experience with big bricks and started out just for my own cows. If you have the storage area and are going to in the future or now sell out of state the big squares seem to be wave of the future. The type of hay you are putting up is also something to think about leaf loss can be greater with the BR. This is something I have mulled over but am staying with the Big Rounds for now Martin


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## Griffman73 (Oct 6, 2011)

As a shipping broker having had extensive experience hauling hay over the last 5 months, I cannot recommend the squares enough! If you are planning on, or even thinking about selling your hay, square it up! Legal loads move much easier than oversized loads and much cheaper too. Just my 0.02...


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I too have never seen something as tough to decide. It almost seems like you must have both or you'll lose out on sales, but bother means 2 balers and bigger $ invested. 
Around my area, most hay farmers just sell big squares to mushroom farmers for $100/ton. Seems kind of low for all the work, but the hay gets cut and sold immediately out of the field. Round bales seem like the hardest to move unless you're in dairy country, but they're easy to store. Little rectangles bring more $, but they need to be stored inside. It's enough to drive you crazy.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

with the numbers of our operation there really are no pro's to a round bale. we made big round bales for a number of years and four years ago bought a big square baler. i will try to address the concerns of the other post's here. the weights i am going to use will be much different than your western weights but you should get the idea. this is the result of one 34 acre field that we kept track of from round to square. time. it takes 25 seconds to stop rap and dump a round bale. at 272 bales this comes to 1.85 hrs of rapping time alone. with the square baler we baled this field in 2.25 hrs almost in the time i had rapping round. we had 272 round bales at 750 lbs per bale. we haul 38 round bales per load @ 14.25 tons per load. this equates to 7.15 trips to clear the field. we average 2200 lbs in a square. this came out to 92 bales. we were then hauling 22 bales for a 24.2 ton load. this took 4.18 trips to clear the field. in the past we had left some round bales out as we didn't have enough storage. some were left to the elements some were covered so i had some experience with tarp's. stacking 3 or if you can handle 2 at a time 4 high makes a great pile to cover. we have a building that will hold 96 bales and we make 100bale piles. when the building is empty we break open a pile and move it into the building. using cover tarps and side curtains you can not tell that this hay was not stored in a building. with the squares if you are in a building or tarping they store so much better. no matter how you pile a round bale you loose room. we still make rounds for our customers that want them but i hate to hook to the round baler. i have even tried to get our customers who handle their bales with machinery to buy a 4x4x4 square so i don't have to bale round. the price is a consideration. we buy new hay equipment but did buy a used square baler. price is about the same for a new round as for a used square. we just don't do enough acreage to justify a 100,000 dollar baler. unless you are selling your hay and the market demands big round i would go for square. there, that and 1.50 will get you a cup of coffee. gary


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

jenkins, I am located right south of you ? I run both big round balers and big square balers, most of my rounds go to farmers and ranchers and the big squares go to grinders or dairies. With the JD 568 round balers you can get as much hay in them as I am getting in the big squares, weight wise . I bet I maybe know your folks ? Are you near campo ? send me a private message sometime . Jeff


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

I to have been on the fence deciding whether to trade for a square baler. Hay rake may I ask your cost of baling / bale or ton? I really can't justify to baling systems. I presently have a Vermeer Super M 605 baler that I am real happy with but round bales even with net wrap are a pain to ship out of state. I am also concerned about my old customers acceptance of square bales. Can you say that there is a increase in price / ton when you sell the squares over the rounds? Thanks in advance for any light you can provide. Mel


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

_This_ winter rounds are going for as much as large squares around here. Shipping out of state definitely favors large squares though.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Those are some hefty 4X4 bales hay rake. Most around here are about 1800-1900lbs. Generally the only folks around here that bale with round bales are feeding the bales themselves and not selling them. If they are selling hay to much of anywhere they are large squares of all sizes or small squares. I've heard from several people that rounds don't grind as easily (I don't know this for a fact) Though this year rounds are selling fairly well also due to increased demand and low supply. Personally I have no idea about round baler equipment as I've never operated or owned any.


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## aawhite (Jan 16, 2012)

For our dairy, we bought all of our alfalfa hay that went to the milking herd. We stopped buying rounds except in emergencies and couldn't find anything else. Our hay barns were a couple of miles from our commodity bays where we processed the hay. Rounds were much slower to process, and we couldn't haul as many per trip. Quality was always lower, thought that could be atributed to the operation, not the machine. Our favorite size was the 3x4 squares. The 3x3's were a little harder to load/unload as they would tip/slide if the stacks weren't tight. Our loader could pick up 2 of the mid-sized bales compared to one of the big 4x4 bales. Cut the strings, then pick the bale up in two bites with a skid loader and grapple bucket, processor was done with them by the time the next bale was ready to load. Round bales were a LOT slower.

We round baled all our own calf/heifer/dry cow hay.


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## Griffman73 (Oct 6, 2011)

If you look at the way rounds load on a truck there are several very apparent issues. First and foremost, the trucks, many times will have to permit for wide and high loads with round bales. Permitting hasn't been as much of an issue this year because many of the states waved permitting due to the extreme drought conditions but much of this permit waving stopped at the first of the new year in many areas. Secondly, the loads can only be shipped on one type of trailer, an open flatdeck trailer of some kind. Most of the time, flatbeds, stepdecks, etc... . With squares you're options open up to many types of different "closed" van trailers. Thirdly, you're not able to get as much tonnage on a trailer stacked with rounds because of the "empty space" between the bales. So, if you're one of the lucky ones to have gotten paid the same amount for round bales as some have gotten paid for squares, just know that you're cutting yourself out of a portion of the market for buyers. Buyers prefer squares, especially in easier times, because they can get more tonnage for their money delivered.

I take at least 20 calls, every day of my life, from trucks wanting to haul hay but many of them practically hang up on me when I tell them that the load is round bales. The fact of the matter is that not many drivers have the experience, equipment or knowledge to safely haul round bales. I'm sure you've also had the dreaded "first-timer" truck driver show up in your field to haul out round bales as well. This usually quickly turns into a nightmare!

One last thing I will bring up... and I'm sure we don't want to talk about this much... most export companies prefer square bales over round bales. The export market is one that will always be around. In good hay markets or bad here in the U.S., you will always have an option to sell your hay to an export market if it's the right kind of hay and it's baled the way they want it. The U.A.E. Japan and South Korea are constantly wanting to buy up our higher quality hay for their markets. With China coming onto the scene, as they always do with everything, this market will only grow in the future.

I would say that if you're just baling hay for yourself and you're not ever going to sell any of it stick with your round baler. If, however, you ever want it shipped for selling purposes, a square baler is the only way to go. It increases your market share of buyers over time and keeps you competitive with all the other producers.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

Mel i am ashamed to say that i do not know our price per ton for baling alone. we figure our price on total operation with transport back to the home farm. we also consider time as a cost. with our climate baling starts around noon and ends when the dew starts to set. this would allow us to bale 20 to 30 acres a day in round bales. with the square baler we can bale 50 to 60 acres with no problem, allowing us to do twice as much in a day. with 80 percent of our land being from 18 to 60 miles away from storage the number of trips to clear a field is a big part of our cost. we hauled 38 4x5 round bales with a max weight of 15 tons per load. when we went to square we made 4x4x8 bales at 22 bales per load for a max of 28 tons. with round bales i made 38 passes to the truck to load and 19 to unload. with square it was 22 to load and 11 to unload. we have since gone to 10 foot bales and haul 20 bales per load which drops me to 10 passes to unload. we also grind hay for area dairy farms with a roto grind 760. it takes about half of the time to grind square as it does to grind round. also the tub rarely stops turning with square as opposed to round bales that stop and start frequently. i feel that this is easier on the tractor and that we get a more consistent grind with square bales. that is a very long answer to a very short question. as far as the hefty 4x4s go i bale with the precharge set at 420 and make a 10 foot 65 flake brick. we run from 1800 to 2400 pounds per bale. that was our whole reason for going to square so i'll push her till she blows. every bale i can save is maybe one less trip we will have to make. griffman73 mentioned permits. here in maine they are not allowed. if it can be made smaller a permit will not be issued. i look at some of the pictures on here and call to the wife "hey look at this, they would put me in jail if i tried that, and they think nothing of it". regards gary


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

Wow!, great comments and thoughts! I do see the potential problems of hauling rounds. The two times in my life when I hired a round baler guy to come in, did result in near disaster trying to haul them. However, since posting my original question, I spoke to a neighbor who is running a fairly large feedlot not to far away, said he would be interested in taking all the rounds I could make. So I might give it a shot with the round first, I'll be sure to let y'all now how it works. Thanks for all the info!


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

if you are not going to be hauling far i would suggest an inline bale trailer. for short hauls i think it would be the most cheap, fast and easy way to haul round bales. good luck gary


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Check out this video. Makes me want to go round from here on.

GoBob Pipe and Steel - Red Ox Hay Trailer with 11 Bales Inline


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

Griffman73 said:


> If you look at the way rounds load on a truck there are several very apparent issues. First and foremost, the trucks, many times will have to permit for wide and high loads with round bales. Permitting hasn't been as much of an issue this year because many of the states waved permitting due to the extreme drought conditions but much of this permit waving stopped at the first of the new year in many areas. Secondly, the loads can only be shipped on one type of trailer, an open flatdeck trailer of some kind. Most of the time, flatbeds, stepdecks, etc... . With squares you're options open up to many types of different "closed" van trailers. Thirdly, you're not able to get as much tonnage on a trailer stacked with rounds because of the "empty space" between the bales. So, if you're one of the lucky ones to have gotten paid the same amount for round bales as some have gotten paid for squares, just know that you're cutting yourself out of a portion of the market for buyers. Buyers prefer squares, especially in easier times, because they can get more tonnage for their money delivered.
> 
> I take at least 20 calls, every day of my life, from trucks wanting to haul hay but many of them practically hang up on me when I tell them that the load is round bales. The fact of the matter is that not many drivers have the experience, equipment or knowledge to safely haul round bales. I'm sure you've also had the dreaded "first-timer" truck driver show up in your field to haul out round bales as well. This usually quickly turns into a nightmare!
> 
> .


Funny I have been putting up 1000's of rounds every year since back in the early 80's and I never have trouble finding trucks to haul round bales ? Guess you dont have real hay haulers handy ? I do agree most truckers prefer big squares do to ease of hauling. But there are some truckers who specialize in round bale transportation.You must be a hay broker ? or truck dispatcher. See alot of them as the hay price goes up.Far as the weight issue our big round bales weigh almost the same as big squares, we can get more rounds on a trailer than we can big squares, and not even go 2 wide on top .I ship several 100 semi loads out each year and there is a differnce in truckers who haul hay and those who just need to get a load. If you put up much hay it is best to have round and big square balers so you can keep your customers happy.


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## Griffman73 (Oct 6, 2011)

panhandle9400 said:


> Funny I have been putting up 1000's of rounds every year since back in the early 80's and I never have trouble finding trucks to haul round bales ? Guess you dont have real hay haulers handy ? I do agree most truckers prefer big squares do to ease of hauling. But there are some truckers who specialize in round bale transportation.You must be a hay broker ? or truck dispatcher. See alot of them as the hay price goes up.Far as the weight issue our big round bales weigh almost the same as big squares, we can get more rounds on a trailer than we can big squares, and not even go 2 wide on top .I ship several 100 semi loads out each year and there is a differnce in truckers who haul hay and those who just need to get a load. If you put up much hay it is best to have round and big square balers so you can keep your customers happy.


Yeah, pretty clear in my profile that I'm a freight broker.







Also in my profile, I state that I came here to make friends and have conversations to help me build new relationships. God willing and the world doesn't end, I intend to do just that! I'm unapologetic when it comes to what I do. I thoroughly enjoy this job, best job I've ever had in my life. You'll probably find guys and gals like me anywhere a hot commodity is needed for shipping. That's what we do!









I gravitated towards hay, however, because I grew up in the S. E. Idaho farming areas and farming and ranching interest is just in my blood. I remember I used to get 2 weeks off every year to pick potatoes with the migrant workers when I was a kid. I've always loved farming and ranching activities and love more than anything to be a part of all things that have to do with them. I was just one of the less fortunate people that couldn't ever get a farm or ranch of my own. My family didn't have a farm to pass to us kids, we didn't have a lot of $$ and none of us 3 kids had a father that felt he should be around for us either. My mother was a hero... Anyway, wasn't much opportunity for us to go into farming or ranching of our own...

In my very limited experience, when compared to yourself, I've personally found that truckers don't like to haul large round bales unless they've got experience with it and the right equipment. As far as finding trucks... I didn't say I couldn't find trucks... I've moved over 5 million lbs of hay from up north to down south very successfully in the last 3-4 months and I'm very proud of myself for helping to do this because I'm very new at the job!









As for hay brokering... I haven't really tried my hand at doing that yet. I may some day if the opportunity rises and I feel I can make a few extra bucks for me and my family though. I have brought several sellers and buyers together just from having contact with so many people. Bottom line, the job market in western Montana, down the Bitterroot in particular, has been pretty slim for the last several years since the greenies got their hands on all the old native industries such as logging among other things. Gotta jump at whatever you can these days to feed and clothe the family! I was a cop for several years and kinda have a heart for shining light on crooks as well. Both the hay industry and trucking industry are full of them! Heck, I feel like I'm in my own personal paradise! Much less stress and psychological turmoil in this industry when compared to law enforcement as well!

I think that through honesty and integrity there's room for all kinds in this world. The important thing is to work together in all things and help each other out in the process...

Have a good night all!


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

panhandle not trying to defend griffman or anything but you need to see other view's. where you are maybe the things you say are true but in other places what he says are true. for example where i am you are dead wrong. a load of hay can not be over 13.6 high 102 wide and no longer than 65 feet. only 48 foot trailer's allowed on 90% of the roads. now with 40 double stacked 4x5 bales and that is 4 wide 5 round i defy you to get the same or bigger load on that trailer with rounds. trust me when i tell you it can't be done. next when you start looking for trucks you better know who your calling because it may become a circus and one you won't like. most guy's here given the choice between hay and any thing else will take the any thing else. most that will haul hay will not haul round's only small or big square. as for me i was born on a farm that had a construction, logging and trucking business. i also have driven a little over 4 million miles in every state except hawaii. if we didn't need truck's to haul our product's you couldn't get me near one now. i have looked at you picture's on this site and will tell you that if you bring that load of hay to maine you will get as far as the kittery scales (6miles) and then you will go to jail. that is not an exaggeration in maine they really would lock you up for that load. also that is some pretty country except for the snake. love the fact that i live in the only state with no poisonous ones. it would scare hell out of me having to work in fields with them, you probably don't even think about it. see another difference.where ever you go in this country what ever you take as a given rule will be dead wrong somewhere else. also i am not trying to be argumentative just showing other side's of the coin. gary


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

I have a small operation and have found the 4x6 rolls to suit me, even better than the 5x6's I used to bale and use. I quit baling for a few years and currently buy hay. This year I am going to bale for personal use as a 4x6 around here is going for over $100 and I choose not to pay that much for that little hay. I store outside and it works ok for me in this climate.

Mark


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## MorganT69 (May 17, 2010)

I sell round rolls in the horse market around here. The customer around here usually want a 4x4 or a 4x5 round roll so that they can move them around by hand, they usually don't have the equipment to move the rolls or a large square. I live in the suburbs of Memphis, TN and a lot of the horse people don't even own a tractor with more than 25 hp and no loader. It all depends on your market as to what you make and sell. If I was going to be shipping to other countries I would first find out what they were buying and preferred and then make that product. We have to do our homework on what works best in our markets and for our customers.


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

I certainly appreciate all the information presented here. I sell at least 1500 round bales a year and in my local market they ship well and are well recieved. The trouble is this is normally a hay surplus area and better prices are to be had out of state. I really think a big square baler is in my future! Mel


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Interesting.....shipping hay out of your area= square bales (easier to ship)
Hay stays in your area=round rolls (easier for local end user to move around).


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

That is true. Most hay here is used by ranchers who are already setup for round bales and they will not pay prices for hay that are being payed in other areas regardless the quality. But when you try to ship out of this area regulations and truckers get to be a problem. Mel


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## El Capitan (Dec 31, 2011)

I think the only real advantage of a round baler is that they shed rain better.

People in the western states aren't as concerned about rainfall, truck hay longer distances (on average), have an export market, and have larger acreage operations (on average). All of these factors favor square bales. Look at used equipment: it is hard to find a round baler in California, and hard to find a large square baler in the eastern areas.

The other issue which strongly favors large squares in the western states is the limited window for baling. Alfalfa is in case for only brief periods, and if you miss your chance, you are screwed. The big balers will eat through hay at about three times the rate of a round baler, and the operator doesn't have to start and stop, etc. It is much easier on the operator and the equipment.

If you try baling alfalfa that is too dry and brittle with a square baler, you will see dust and debris flying around a bit. The hay will have a lot of loose leaves when the bale is opened. Try the same thing with a round baler, and you can lose ALL of the leaves. You will open the bale and see a bunch of naked stems. Also, you can possibly start a fire with a round baler in these conditions. The moisture issue isn't as big of a deal in more humid climates, and the rainfall/outside storage is important -- hence, the preference for round balers.

Panhandle9400 is on the fence, region wise. Which probably explains why he has both.

Hay haulers in the western states are unfamiliar with the round bales and don't want to touch them. In the east, they are very familiar with them and are rigged up for them.

I personally hate round balers. Round bales roll. They are inherently dangerous with inexperienced people. A tall stack of big squares outside is less exposed to the elements than a short stack of rounds, IMO.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

El Capitan said:


> I think the only real advantage of a round baler is that they shed rain better. IMO.


The price of the baler is a huge difference.

Here we don't seem to have storage issues as other parts of the country with rd bales.So storage would cost more with sq bales.

It's just gonna cost you more per ton to put it in a lg sq bale here,esp if running same acres comparing the 2 balers.

I think I would need 40-60 a ton more in lg sq bales here to make it work for me.And they are priced the same here localy.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Another thing I've learned (obvious to you experienced guys) is hay is such a quirky, almost provincial thing. I can see where rounds work better where storage is primarily outside or is heavier rainfall environments.


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

What should a guy look for when purchasing a used round baler? I suppose the condition of the belts would be a big concern? Any other "red flags" to watch for?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

jenkinsfarmsinc said:


> What should a guy look for when purchasing a used round baler? I suppose the condition of the belts would be a big concern? Any other "red flags" to watch for?


The pickups may need to be rebuilt.Cams could be wore out.Bearings need replacing.And all the pick up teeth and bands.

Look at the weldings.I've seen alot of balers that have been rewelded alot.Good chance they had a hard life.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> The price of the baler is a huge difference.
> 
> Here we don't seem to have storage issues as other parts of the country with rd bales.So storage would cost more with sq bales.
> 
> ...


This year rounds and large squares are selling for practically the same price, I'd have to have at least another $30-40/ton to pay for the extra help to pick the squares up as fast as I could make em. Last summer just as I'd bale the last row, the rain would set in. Not a big deal with rounds, but I'd been screwed if I had large squares sitting out waiting to be picked up. I don't mean a little rain either, I mean a real gutter washer.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Another thing HERE.

Most hay is tub ground here.A round bale works better in a tub grinder.A 8' long bale can jam in tub and not feed in as well as a 6' rd bale.And with sq bales it tends to shoot out of the tub more and make a bigger mess.So you can grind more tons per hr with rd bales.At $200 per hr it adds up.I know feedlots that don't want lg sqs because of this.

Another reason feedlots shy away from lg sqs is some hay jockeys will send tops and bottoms of outside stacks to feedlots after center of stack went to dairies.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Another thing about grinding around _here_, Ive watched my friend grind hay and he prefers rounds as well, pull the net off and you can get most of the bale in the tub grinder, cut the strings on a big square while standing on the ground and you have a mess.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

Sorry boys but i very strongly disagree. we have ground about 600 ton per year for the last six years and find that square grinds much easier. we use a roto grind 760 and there are a lot of benefits to square and hate to grind rounds. we have fed bales to the grinder in about every way you can think of and it is always the same. it takes half the time to grind square. with round bales they can bridge up, and you have hollows in the tub as it rotates. with square bales we feed in two ways. first way is to feed with a pulp loader.we set the bale out and cut twine. i then pull twine off the bale with the loader then feed bale into grinder about a quarter of bale per bucket. the other is to put the bale out end on to something you can push against. again cut twine pull out with loader then shovel up the bale so many flakes at a time. with this one how much of the bale you take will depend on your bucket size. with a rock bucket on a front end loader i get about 1/3 of a 4x4x10 bale per bucket. we have just about enough time to get the twine off to keep up with the grinder. the flakes from the square baler lay in the tub with no bridging. i have much less mess from shoveling squares than i do with rounds. ether with spearing or picking them up with a grapple.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

This is what they use for grinding here.Haybuster 1150 Commercial Tub Grinder Product Info.

There is no way you could keep up with it taking strings off and putting the bale in 1/3 at a time.Some guys use 2 loaders to keep up with them puting in 1500 lb rd bales.60-120 bales per hr depending on the hay.

I think that roto grind would be demolished in a few days around here.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

i agree that grinder would swallow the roto grind and not even know it did it. but i still believe in the square vs round theory. i also still believe that if you find a way to feed squares they will grind faster and easier than round in any size grinder. the stinger twine grab fork looked interesting to me but they stopped making it and only have a prototype left. we are planning to build something similar to feed our grinder with. if i am wrong about this it probably won't be the first time but they are my belief's. gary


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

I have read that the big squares have to come off the field as soon as you bale them, is this as big as a concern with round bales? We don't have a lot of humidity here, or rain as far as that goes, but I am faced with the challenge of moving the bales by myself since I'm kind of a one man operation.


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## Will 400m (Aug 1, 2011)

No rounds dont have to come off as fast as the big square. Up here people line the field edges with them and leave them all fall, winter, and spring and feed as needed. Plus you can wrap them easly enough with a bale wraper. But most people up here either twine wrap the bale or net wrap and leave them untill they get to it. You loose a little maby an inch all over and at the bottom the most is maby the first 6 inches or so if left right on the ground. Again thats over the season not over night or the week.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I think I'm gonna pick up a round baler for this season. How many 4x5 round bales on average of grass hay do you get per acre?


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Depends on alot of conditions including how heavy your baler makes how much grass has grown etc... I put up 5 x 5.5 bales that run around 1200 pounds generally you can expect 2-4 per but that really depends on how much rain type of grass. I was using caution with my new to me baler and probably could have made the bales alittle tighter.


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

Any particular baler to stay away from? Which one would be the best investment?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

jenkinsfarmsinc said:


> Any particular baler to stay away from? Which one would be the best investment?


Oh jeez, the best one?? Can...worms...open.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

"best investment" One that you pay less than its worth , that never breaks down or causes you any problems and when you sell it it brings more than you paid for it and put into it... Everyone has there favorite mine is now Vermeer. Most Companies build a good product it mostly depends on how they are maintained and treated.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Farm equipment brand loyalty is pretty strong. I own a bunch of different brands. I try to focus on buying the best deal/best quality I can find at the time of purchase taking into consideration the piece still has a reasonable likelihood of still having parts & service available. 
If you only own one brand and you need a machine immediately, sometimes you can't find that brand in the price range you're looking in (that would be me). Particularly if it has to e a pre-owned piece. I don't have the $ to buy anything new anymore.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

jenkinsfarmsinc said:


> Any particular baler to stay away from? Which one would be the best investment?


Stay away from any baler not dry stored.....yeah there are people that still do this madness(outside).

Regards, Mike


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## cbdave (Jan 14, 2011)

Been there, done that. I finally jumped off the cliff with both feet. I bought a square baler two years ago. I was the custom round bale guy, but I couldnt keep up. Everyone wanted squares. The brokers, the dairies, the feed lots. Anyone who wnated quantities wanted squares. So I bought a 3x3 baler because its the "Jack of all, master of none". I could do dry hay and straw not that 3x3 straw are Ideal but to few custom guys locally with 4x4 or 4x3 balers didnt seem like its gonna matter and it didnt. 
So dont recall who gave you all the numbers but he is sooooo on the money. Time is money man. Baling, picking up, selling, loading, unloading, $$$ per ton. Once you jump, you will get in your Delorian and travel back in time to smack yourself sooner. I do my hay in 1/2 the time leaving me to bale custom for others. I could add another baler easy if not 2 for that month of straw. Lets assume you get the point and we no longer need to beat a dead horse. Buy the square baler. Now let move on, repairs and operators. Doesnt matter how good the monitor is, they are more money to repair more difficult to operate and more $$$ to go wrong. And I hate frickin knotters. For the love of God can someone engineer something less tempermental than a square bale knotter. Brands from my $.02. Krone makes a damn nice baler. I own a Hesston and love it. New Holland appears everywhere. Krone dealers claim they are the best and I would maybe agree but seems they are new to everywhere and I have no service by me. Neighbor has a 3 yr old Krone w 30,000 bales thats junk because he cant get it serviced with closest dealer 3 hours away. I have Hesston and not all Agco dealers service large squares. My dealer is only one in 2 hours distance who services balers and they know it. I got a knotter tune up this winter for $4000 fricking dollars in LABOR. So although I love my Hesston, I will buy a New Holland next time whos 20 min away, so when that dealer pulls that crap, I have another one 25 minutes away. So I would say any that your trusted dealer recommends. But dont buy one thats all worn out unless you like fixing things and you dont mind repairing it while watching a thunderhead coming in. One thing I noticed with other peoples balers, when they start going, they go. Almost everything has a certain life on it. When the timer pops, the Turkey is done. My personal opinion, buy under 40,000 bales. And good luck finding something to do with all your new found free time.


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Cbdave what hesston model do you have? I had a 8570 offered me at a very attrative price. Do they have any inherant weaknesses? Mel


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

cddave there a number of dealers that offer baler schools at different times of the year. maize corp has just run there's and zimmerman's in pa is going to be around the 20th of this month. these are just the one's i know of. with a little schooling and a manual you should be able to service knotters yourself. to my knowledge we have the only 4x4 and the only hesston in maine. this being the case we have to do all our own repair's. the knotters are no different than a small square baler only bigger. the mechanic that helps me had never seen a big baler until mine and he and i tune up and fix every problem that i have had to this date. even though we have always gotten by i will still probably go to zimmerman's school. everything that i can learn will always come in handy. once you take out the high priced labor costs come down quite quickly. as far as the knotters themselves go i am a new holland guy but see no problem with the hesston knotters. this is one reason that i would consider a bale baron, it looks just like my baler from the back. waterway i was once told by a dealer that new holland and hesston were both good balers it just depended on what you want. new holland balers are all drive shafts and gearboxes. hesston are all chain and sprocket. i chose hesston for that reason. whenever you raise the side shields on the hesston you see the chains and sprockets and can tell if there is any wear. then you have the option of changing worn parts when you want. the other thing i like about this is we carry spare chain with us on the service truck so it is a quick fix if we break in the field. hasn't happened yet. as far as the model goes that will depend on what your sales are and what you have to handle them with. we have the equipment to handle any size bale so bale size was my main concern. we went with 4x4 because i thought we could get more on a load. i may have been wrong about the weight but we do it in less bales per load. also a processing baler would be a thought. you don't have to process every bale but for your customers that want it you will have it available. this is one thing i wish i had done and will probably need to be addressed in our future. one thing i am glad of is the 4x4 has a single axle with big float tires and will stay up in fields that my nh 740 round baler will sink in. with all the rain we have been having in the northeast that is a big consideration. people that use the smaller balers with singles or tandems say they sink a lot quicker. gary


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## cbdave (Jan 14, 2011)

Waterway64 said:


> Cbdave what hesston model do you have? I had a 8570 offered me at a very attrative price. Do they have any inherant weaknesses? Mel


I have a 3x3 Hesston. Newer model. Massey Fergeson calls it a 2150 I think, Agco calls it a 7433 but both are same unit built by Hesston. 
Hay rake makes several good points usually after I conclude. I too will purchase a cutter or processor on my next baler. Not that I want to process the hay but customers with Straw and Dairy/feeder farms want it processed. One local dairy was able to run 2 feed trucks instead of 3 simply by buying processed dry hay by grinding that much faster. Cant argue with customer and win. I really recommend looking at weight of a tractor/ HP/ and terrien. 4x4 bales are usually over a ton in weight. That is one big plunger and you need to have the tractor weight to handle that thrust of the plunger. Also when you add hills and cutter, your adding some more required HP. I would listen to hay rake because he knows the 4x4 but I know 3x3 and 4x3 and I say 160HP absolute min on a 3x3, 200HP on 4x3 with processor. Thats flat ground, add more for hills.
Now we do 10,000 bales of straw custom. 4x3x8 get the most on a common truck. 3 high, 2 wide on truck. Bales weigh 1500lbs. flat deck trailer go 3 high over roads. Trailer weight on 48' 54,000lbs. 4x4x8 cant go 3 high without using drop deck. 2 high 2 wide = 24 on truck and if weight is 2200lbs you get 52,800. 3x3x8 (actually 32-34") I get 56 on truck. Average weight 900lbs. 3 heigh 3 wide = 48,600lbs. so for selling by ton its best to sell 4x3 and I imagine after Hay rake answers it would be less HP than a 4x4. Last thing nobody ever talks about is number of bales. If it takes me 45 seconds to make a bale that is 900lbs, 30,000 bales = 375 hours. Now it should take about a 1.5 minutes for a 4x3 in same size windrows correct? Thats 750 hours of running. Now a 4x4 in same circumstances is 109 seconds. for 30,000 bales thats 916 hours. Keep this in mind when you see a 4x4 with 10,000 bales compared against a 4x3 with 12000. Hours means wear on chains and sprockets. Bales are simply knotter cycles. Hours are chains, sprockets, bearings.
Now as Hay rake said, love Hesston chains and sprockets. Preventative maint is easy. Look over the chains and adjust tension. Hesston recommends 2000 bale service intervals which is nice. Not every day. I like Hesston design, but those New Holland guys are passionate about their rigs too. So again I say Krone, New Holland or Heeston, whichever your trusted dealer supports, because its gonna break and your gonna need parts.
Good luck and dont over think it to much. All of us on the other side jumped and just like hay rake, in hindsight I would have jumped a little left or a little right but didnt know until I landed. You be fine and make money and save time. So when you buy the next one, you will fine tune it based on what you learned. 
I say 4x3 with cutter is best of all worlds.


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## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

i agree with cddave. for one thing i don't think anyone makes a 4x4 cutter and i would never own another baler without one. for me it would be a 4x3 with cutter probably hesston but maybe a krone but i doubt it. as i said axle and tires would also be one of my considerations. we run our 8580 (hesston 4900) with accumulator with a two wheel drive 20,000 lb non power shift tractor. another one of my do overs would be four wheel drive and power shift. it takes a lot of weight on the front to carry the baler and keep it straight on the road when the accumulator starts dancing. we run more weight on front to bale than doing tillage. i feel that this weight would be better carried by the bigger tires and it would be less compaction on the fields. another reason for four wheel drive is to pull you around when turning in fields. when the salesman told me this i thought he was crazy, not now. i use light brakes on most hard turns in the field. as far as horse power goes i believe i could bale with less if i had to maybe as little as 140-150 but i think more is always better. the other thing is power shift. when i bought the baler and i told them i didn't have power shift that was another thing that they said you don't have what?? another thing that i thought they were crazy. guess what they were right i was wrong. i won't say you have to have power shift but it sure would be nice.gary


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

baling alfalfa that is too dry and brittle - with a round baler, and you can lose ALL of the leaves. & a bunch of naked stems.

I hope all you round baling is when the humidity is 65% and the hay is 16 to 18 percent moisture. STILL the square bale will have more hay per acre and higher percentage of protein. Baling at 55% humidity the difference can be a full two percentage points of protein.

The reason is that even with the best of conditions a round baler will shuck more leaves than a square baler. A large square baler, just by it's design looses fewer leaves than my small square baler.

Really each type of baler has it's own advantages. Hay quality is not one of the advantages with a round baler.

My small square baler ok with 20% moisture hay while a round baler or a 3X3 large baler does ok with 16 or 18 percent moisture while the large 4X4X8 bale may want some perservative if baling above 14% moisture.

In normal times I only put up round bales when the hay barn is full and out side storage is my only option.


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

I always thought that a round baler would be easier on the leaves then a square baler, but I guess that make sense, more surface area of the hay coming in contact with the belts and what not. I guess in a perfect world, not limited by money and budgets, a guy should have one of each, round, large square, and a small square. Good thread!


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## panhandle9400 (Jan 17, 2010)

[quote name='hay wilson in TX']baling alfalfa that is too dry and brittle - with a round baler, and you can lose ALL of the leaves. & a bunch of naked stems.

The reason is that even with the best of conditions a round baler will shuck more leaves than a square baler. A large square baler, just by it's design looses fewer leaves than my small square baler.

Really each type of baler has it's own advantages. Hay quality is not one of the advantages with a round baler.

My small square baler ok with 20% moisture hay while a round baler or a 3X3 large baler does ok with 16 or 18 percent moisture while the large 4X4X8 bale may want some perservative if baling above 14% moisture.

In normal times I only put up round bales when the hay barn is full and out side storage is my only option.[/QUOTE I mean no disrespect wilson , but you are not always correct on some issues, Have you ever owned or operated a jd568 ? In alfalfa I DO NOT lose anymore leaves with my round balers as I do with my square balers. The reason I say this is if conditions are good and the leaf retention is good the leaves do not come off.You would be a fool to waste your money using persevative on your big squares at 14% I dont even use it at 18% or20%. Never have any problems under 20% never .Far as hay quaility not as good in rounds as squares ,thats total bs. I put up small squares,big rounds and big squares. My livelyhood comes from growing alfalfa hay, I do not put up many small squares as I used to do to much added cost vs rounds or big squares.Alot of what I put up each year goes to horse hay contracts with some of the biggest feedyards in the industry and it is shipped in rounds and big squares , so the quaility must be good, you get quaility hay ,if you grow quaility hay and know how to use humidity to help you do it. Jeff


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

hay wilson in TX said:


> baling alfalfa that is too dry and brittle - with a round baler, and you can lose ALL of the leaves. & a bunch of naked stems.


 Doing something wrong if getting all stems.Wait for a dew if its to dry.NO WAY,NO HOW.Should some one end up with all stems.If they know how to rd bale!

The newer balers have more belt area with little gap so even if the hay is dry you don't loose many leaves.Also make large windrows and shove it in baler fast loosing less leaves also.

I'd be willing to bet a sm sq baler looses more leaves then a lg rd baler operated correctly.


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## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

I believe I've read every post in this thread with over the past couple weeks, and found myself both nodding in agreement, and shaking my head in annoyance with some of the OPINIONS expressed. Just throwing this out there....... but just because what you see in your world, doesn't make it so for the entire world. I'll try my best not to write a book here, and just give some of my experiences, *from here.* In my case, here is North Central Alberta, Canada.

In my neighborhood, I'm one of the only guys with a big square of any size. Drive a couple hundred miles south and you start seeing a near 50/50 split between rounds/square, and another couple hundred miles past that and it's rare to see a round.

The reason we don't see large squares in my area is cost. Cost of the baler, the big enough tractor to pull it, the big enough loaders to handle the bales, and a feeding system (be it grinder or TMR) to process them out, all cost significantly more for squares vs rounds. Additionally, here, we have significant enough rainfall that the squares need to be either tarped or shedded, within hours of baling.

As far as time saved...... Newer netwrap round balers can almost keep up with a square. Difference here, is that when a round guy goes out to bale his hay before the approaching rain storm, all he has to do is bale. When a square guy goes out to bale before the approaching storm, he has to bale, haul, stack, and tarp. Or stick it in a $$,$$$ shed.

For the same $$ spent on a 3x4 big square, we could have bought three loaded up 568 round balers with netwrap. Two round balers can surpass a big square, and three would run circles. Would mean 1/3 of the bales per baler, balers would last 3 times longer, tractors would be smaller, less fuel.

For us, at baling time with the squares, we have one tractor baling, one loading, and one unloading. Three operators, three tractors. If we went with three rounds, we'd run all three tractors to bale, bale bale bale like a bastard until the cutting is done, then park one tractor and use two for loading/unloading when it's time to haul, and just haul like hell between cuttings. When it's time to bale, whats more important, baling as many acres as you can at the critical time, or hauling home the same day? I'd rather focus on baling on baling day, you can focus on hauling the rounds on a day you're waiting for the next field to dry.

As far as quality. Round bales can be baled at a higher moisture without preservative, both because of density, and they can be left out in the field to breathe/sweat for days/weeks, unlike the squares which [here] have to be stacked the same day they're baled. The higher moisture you can bale without heating, the higher the quality, the better the leaf retention, less bleaching, etc.

A square baler run to full capacity will loose fewer leaves because the plunger is striking a new flake of hay every time. Slow the ground speed down, and the plunger starts smacking that same flake multiple times, knocks leaves off.

A round baler with netwrap will loose less leaves than a twine baler, because once the bale is made it only needs to spin around 3 times, rather than 30+ times to twine tie.

Here, with a 3x4x9 bale, good luck getting prime "pretty" hay above 15%. No way, no how, can you consistently do it. I run preservative that gets me to 20% moisture, but that's pushing it. Definitely good enough for beef cows, but don't count on sending every bale to a dairy or a horse. 3x3 bales might be a little more forgiving, but you couldn't pay me to play with those bales.

I haul both 5x6 rounds and 3x4 squares on hay racks, semi trailers, and goose-necks, sure the squares are nicer, but rounds aren't the end of the world. In this part of the world, it is easy enough to haul rounds 2-high and 2-wide as far as regulations goes, and many many people do, and can fill a truck right up to the legal limit.

You have to be hauling a LONG ways (multiple hours) in order to see the benefit of trucking costs with the squares in terms of dollars per bale savings. You have to be selling a lot of bales that distant before that cost makes up for the cost of the hay shed, increased machinery cost, labor cost, etc.

Bottom line, for a low labor, low machine power, low expendable funds operation, stick with rounds. Learn on them. Grow on them. Unless you CANNOT move your rounds, and are forced to take a significant price hit on them, stick with rounds. The "premium" dollar that big squares bring in some areas, is not an increased profit margin for the big square guy, because his expenses are higher. From what I see, unless you're selling 10,000bales+ a year, a large square is just not worth it. And I do a lot fewer bales than that.

For what it's worth, I run a 3x4 Hesston big square baler (new model), a 5x6 Hesston round baler without netwrap (compares to a 567 Deere), and an 336 Deere small square baler. Raise hay and silage for our own cow/calf farm, sell surplus hay to race horses and feedlots.

Take care, and good luck.
-Josh


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Josh you make some very solid points. One that you make about the newer round balers with net wrap certainly can't be emphasized enough. I read a lot of comments on older round balers but there isno comparison to the quality of job they do compared to the Vermeer Super M, the JD 568, or other new style balers with net wrap. I bale in a range of 8 to 14 miles a hour. It takes longer to kick the bale out than to wrap it and it leaves far less leaves on the ground. 
I continue to plan for a square baler though because of longer distance interstate shipping of hay. I have no desire to sell my round baler though. I also have a customer base that are local that are happy with round bales. my .02 Mel


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Well said Josh.

I think alot of people have a bad perseption of rd balers.When the first ones came out they did make alot of sticks and soft bales that didn't shed water.They have constantly been improving the rd balers over the yrs.And we have learned how to rd bale without loosing leaves,using dews and making large windrows.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I did observe that RB & small squares baled in the same field at the same time. Both started as the air down next to the windrow reached 65% Relative humidity and we both were done as the humidity fell below 55%.

Not scientific, replicated, and certified but the bales from their first windrow the CP was a 1% less for the RBer. The hay on the last stretch for each baler the protein tested 2% lower than the small square baler.

The RBer was my neighbor with his shiny new JD 5 X 6 ft net wrap wide pickup and a moisture tester. He settled into kicking out at a rate for 38 bales an hour. 
My 30 year old NH 315 baler was putting a bale on the ground close to 12 strokes per bale, and turning close to 90 strokes per minute.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on their own experience. To me the lower CP for the round bales equated to more leaves lost. I do not have a clue as to the real dry matter yield for each baler.

Maybe Oklahoma, New Mexico, Nebraska, & Kentucky will do a well though out series of side by side yield studies. 
Maybe in a few years, when I turn 95, I will go to some Cow College and do a study.

Hopefully 2012 there will be enough humidity to be able to my square bales during the expected 3 hours between almost too damp to bale & before the leaves start to fly.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I would have the field all baled before most guys would even start sq baling.









Therefore not loosing many leaves.


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## sedurbin (May 30, 2009)

Would someone please give a review for using pitch forks and horse drawn wagons, we have heard from everyone else. ;-)


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I use a horse drawn wagon, but those horses keep eating into my profits.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Think there was a previous thread where they were gonna old time it and pile against a post? Anyone need a extra pitchfork? ;-)


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## JoshA (Apr 16, 2008)

sedurbin said:


> Would someone please give a review for using pitch forks and horse drawn wagons, we have heard from everyone else. ;-)


Sorry, I don't believe my neighbor has internet. He does buy bales from me though!

Attached a picture because he uses his horses to pick it up, very cool.


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## jenkinsfarmsinc (Dec 8, 2011)

So I've decided to go with rounds for now. I started to look at some different balers and pretty sure I want the net wrap option. Does anyone have any concerns with the newer JD balers? I don't want to buy brand new, I figure I can get a few year old model and save some cash. Thanks for all the help!


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I'm leaning towards a NH644 sileage with net wrap, but still open to others.


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