# prussic acid



## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

http://news.yahoo.com/texas-cattle-deaths-tied-toxic-bermuda-grass-143145873--finance.html


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

What is the point of the link? 
The idea of prussic acid poisoning being a quick killer but it is something that we have all lived with for several generations.
There was a lot of running off at the mouth around here and some giant jumping to conclusions initially, but now things are back to as normal as you will ever get that close to Austin TX.
Those cattle were rodeo practice animals and become severely stressed. They were not the usual stocker animals or breeding stock.
One thing that has remained constant is these are the only known cattle to be killed by prussic acid in any bermudagrass crosses. Tifton is a cross where the sum is greater than the parts. 
Tifton 68 is just another every day bermudagrass and Star Grass is just another South African Grass that is a close enough relation to bermudagrass that the species will cross. The T-85 seed is sterile and will not germinate. Think of a mule. Over on New Ag Talk pages the subject was addressed and assimilated.
Anything you hear or read if it is close to the words from our Cow College the more credence you can give the message, The link is very close to Redman's observations.

Folks:

I need to share some important information with you regarding prussic acid potential with Tifton 85 bermudagrass.

Recently, 15 head of Corriente roping calves died as a result of prussic acid poisoning in Bastrop cattle in a clean field of Tifton 85 bermudagrass. While this has never been reported before, results of analyses of rumen contents and the fresh forage confirmed death was due to prussic acid poisoning. Forage specialists and researchers here and the vet diagnostic lab at first denied the possibility of this. Even the researchers and breeders at USDA-ARS - Tifton, GA, doubted the findings, but after multiple site visits, multiple forage analyses, and DNA analysis of plants from several fields from several environments across Texas, we can come to only one conclusion - the death of the cattle was indeed due to prussic acid poisoning.

A little background is in order. Tifton 85 bermudagrass was released from the USDA-ARS station at Tifton, GA in 1992 by Dr. Glenn Burton, the same gentleman who gave us Coastal bermudagrass in 1943. One of the parents of Tifton 85, Tifton 68, is a stargrass. Stargrass is in the same genus as bermudagrass (_Cynodon_) but is a different species (_nlemfuensis versus dactylon__)__than bermudagrass__.__ Stargrass has a pretty high potential for prussic acid formation, depending on variety, but even with that being said, University of Florida researchers at the Ona, FL station have grazed stargrass since 1972 without a prussic acid incident._

_The pasture where the cattle died had been severely drought stressed from last year's unprecedented drought, and had Prowl H2O applied during the dormant season, a small amount of fertilizer applied in mid to late April, received approximately 5" of precipitation within the previous 30 days, and was at a hay harvest stage of growth. Thus, the pasture did not fit the typical young flush of growth following a drought-ending rain or young growth following a frost we typically associate with prussic acid formation._

_The cattle were stressed, hungry, and thirsty when they had finished roping for the evening; this is obviously not the ideal condition for cattle to be in when turned into a pasture that had not been grazed this season. However, this is not the answer to the problem. There is, although it appears to be an isolated event, prussic acid potential, and therefore potential for cattle death when grazing Tifton 85 bermudagrass._

_Some private individuals are beginning to issue their own notices at sale barns. This is not the type of announcement our producers need as all this does is alarm people and not inform them, so we plan to issue a news release in the near future explaining essentially what I have described in this message. BUT, I wanted you to know before the news release was issued. In fact, you will receive the news release first before we go to Ag Communications for public distribution._

_What we wish to do is to advise, but not alarm those who currently have Tifton 85 pastures. Here are some important points for producers to consider:_

_1) __Never turn hungry, stressed animals into a new pasture; allow them to fill on hay or in a familiar pasture first._
_2) __When turning cattle into a field of Tifton 85, pay close attention for the first hour or so to ensure cattle will not be in distress. If in doubt, obtain a fresh forage sample from the upper 1/3 of the canopy, place in a ziplock bag on ice, and get to the vet diagnostic lab immediately for analysis._
_3) __Make sure any Tifton 85 forage harvested for hay is properly field-cured before baling. _
_4) __If producers currently have cattle on Tifton 85 pastures, it is unlikely they will experience problems._
_5) __Have producers report any unusual deaths to you (to obtain forage samples) and the local vet._
_6) __Tifton 85 bermudagrass still has the highest level of drought tolerance of all bermudagrass varieties and the highest level of animal performance of all warm-season perennial grasses._

_Again, this situation has never been reported and the incident in Bastrop County is an isolated event&#8230;so far. I just wanted each of you to know about the situation so you would not be blindsided if someone in the county was to ask the question "What is this I hear about Tifton 85 bermudagrass&#8230;"_

_Let me know if you have any questions. We are continuing to sample forage and to send forages to additional out-of-state labs for confirmation._

_Larry_

Larry A. Redmon Ph.D.
State Extension Forage Specialist
Texas AgriLife Extension Service
2474 TAMU
College Station, TX 77843-2474
979-845-2425

IMO Tifton 85 is better as a grazing forage than a hay forage, if managed. It makes an excellent winter forage stockpile forage. In the same enviroment it will produce 15% more DM than the other bermudagrass varieties. Wit the same amount of DM T-85 will produce 15% more meat, milk, & hide than other bermudagrasses. Resulting in just over a 30% greater yield for the T-85.
Though it is not any good for a putting green. .


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## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

Sorry, just though it was interesting. I didn't post it as an attack on anyone or particular forage. Drough stress can be severe and very isolated in many species of grass types.


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## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

I knew Grand dad was called by the AP press was kinda suprised to see they actually used his quote in the paper.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Big surprise to me since it is not a sorghum plant.

On detecting PA in your field, sometimes on Johnson Grass, I see a white powder on the leaf that you can rub off with your thumb and forefinger.

Is this PA? In short, can I use this as a ruler to gauge whether I have a suspect field before turning animals into it?

Next. If you are grazing JG and the cows eat their way through it, in the summer time, you will obviously have new shoots that are said to be suspect. What do you do about that?

I have a hay patch of mixed grasses that I am working on my second cutting as I type. It will be ready about 1 August. I plan to let it regrow for awhile and then turn the cows in on it for fall grazing. How do I go to sleep at night without worrying about killing off the lot of them.

Thanks,
Mark


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

cwright Sorry did not mean to sound curt,

The original article that was published by one of the news media was not all that illuminating. But what can you expect from a Liberal Arts Major with little knowledge of the subject.

Hopefully the media will learn a little about agriculture but I doubt it.
Several times in the past the news people have repeated the pet lies of local politicions regarding agriculture.

I agree it is an interesting story. My first thought was that pasture had an infestation of silver leaf nightshade and the hungry animals has lost their dislike of that plant.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

Well folks, I was thinking since reading this this morning and the problem I have with the article is that regardless of the animals, condition, grazing habits, keepers negligence, bla bla bla.........the bottom line is that Prussic Acid was found in Coastal Bermuda grass! That's the issue. All the rest is just subjective hype.

Soooooo, one must assume that the lab(s) that identified the substance surely was/were as were the investigators that flocked to the scene credible and all, so where do we really go from here? In deciding on what to do for my hay/pasture for this year, I had contacted a guy getting sprigged with 85 and was thinking of having the guys swing by my place while in the area. So it is indeed a curiosity to me and may be to others. Just so happens the guy that was getting sprigged is only in the hay business....no pasturing.

Soooo what else is out there that we don't know about?

My 2c,
Mark


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Prussic Acid was found in Coastal Bermuda  *Tifton 85 Bermudagrass*, grass!
There is a world of difference between Coastal & T-85. Coastal is a hibred cross between tow bermudagrass genius and species grasses.
*T-85 *is a cross between Tifton 68 and a related grass but *not* of the same species African Star Grass. One grass is a race horse grass, the other grass is a Giant Donkey resulting in a real fast & large Mule for a grass.

Some confusion is authorized as both coastal and T-85 produce infertile seed and must be vetatively reproduced in the field.
With bermudagrass there are a number of seeded varieties, but usually the hi bred varieties will out what ever seeded varieties. Still there are a number of natural selection varieties that are competitive. Just as there are some varieties selected for putting greens, fairways, & roughs, along with other sports fields.

Tifton 85 has a thick stem, which holds a lot of nutrient carbohydrates. It has large leaves, and still is 60 or 70% leaf material.
Most bermudagrasses when you lose the leaves you have only structural carbohydrates left in the stems. Not so with T-85 *those thick stems are packed with nutrition*.


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

hay wilson in TX said:


> Prussic Acid was found in Coastal Bermuda  *Tifton 85 Bermudagrass*, grass!
> There is a world of difference between Coastal & T-85. Coastal is a hibred cross between tow bermudagrass genius and species grasses.
> *T-85 *is a cross between Tifton 68 and a related grass but *not* of the same species African Star Grass. One grass is a race horse grass, the other grass is a Giant Donkey resulting in a real fast & large Mule for a grass.
> 
> ...


Scuse me sir. Slip of the tongue. But still, to have this concern with a generally considered "safe" grass is really an eye opener, for me anyway and I'd bet my shorts, a lot of other folks out there raising cattle too, being it Tifton 85, Coastal, common, ABC 68 or whatever. That sir is my point.

Respectfully,
Mark


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

This only bothers me because it will foster more urban myths among horse owners and hay buyers. I love my T-85 and have no concerns about it. I quit trying to educate my customers because I came to the conclusion a long time ago that most people that buy hay don't have the slightest concept of what it is or how it's made. When someone asks what we feed, I usually answer "Bermuda and Bermuda/Bahia mix". Once in a while one will say they prefer "Coastal" and when I tell them that "Coastal" is Bermuda they are happy. I guess I'll just start telling them that it's "really good dried grass" 'cause at the end of the day....that's all I'm producing.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

Mike120 said:


> This only bothers me because it will foster more urban myths among horse owners and hay buyers. I love my T-85 and have no concerns about it. I quit trying to educate my customers because I came to the conclusion a long time ago that most people that buy hay don't have the slightest concept of what it is or how it's made. When someone asks what we feed, I usually answer "Bermuda and Bermuda/Bahia mix". Once in a while one will say they prefer "Coastal" and when I tell them that "Coastal" is Bermuda they are happy. I guess I'll just start telling them that it's "really good dried grass" 'cause at the end of the day....that's all I'm producing.


I'm with Mike, I really am not worried about it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

T85 is a great grass.... in 12 years of cutting for hay and grazing....never a problem, constant 200 head a year. And yes it's been drought stricken, maybe not sprayed with same chemical, and no physically stressed animals, but no problems....


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## Texasmark (Dec 20, 2011)

I have always had a hunch that the white powder on JG was a sign of PA presence. So, I put the subject in my Google search engine and got several nice results. I thought this one was very informative and had the right credentials: http://deltafarmpress.com/prussic-acid-poisoning-threat-regions-cattle

I have it printed out and will refer to it when the time comes.
HTH someone,
Mark


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## markltorrey (Jun 29, 2010)

In my opinion the comments attributed to Larry Redmon of Texas AriLife, Bullet 3 (in 'hay wilson of Texas' post), are especially critical for any grass (be it Burmuda, Alicia, Tifton, Johnson, Hay Grazer, Orchard, Timothy, Alfalfa ... etc.), harvested for hay ...

_3)__Make sure any Tifton 85 forage harvested for hay is properly field-cured before baling. _

DO NOT bale any hay before it is properly cured, period !! Even if there's a chance of it being rained on ... Hey, no one likes their hay to get rained on, but it is always better to wait and bale dry and properly cured hay, than to risk a number of potential problems.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Texasmark said:


> I have always had a hunch that the white powder on JG was a sign of PA presence. So, I put the subject in my Google search engine and got several nice results. I thought this one was very informative and had the right credentials: http://deltafarmpress.com/prussic-acid-poisoning-threat-regions-cattle
> 
> I have it printed out and will refer to it when the time comes.
> HTH someone,
> Mark


Good read Mark and that was a interesting fact about Pearl Millet being free of Prussic Acid.....another reason to grow that type of sorghum for feed.

Regards, Mike


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## cwright (Oct 19, 2011)

Could be that it was not prussic acid but may have been nitrate poisoning?

*http://www.uaex.edu/...DF/FSA-3069.pdf*

*Relationship to Nitrate Poisoning *
Under certain stressful conditions (especially prolonged drought or cool, cloudy weather), many annual grasses, including the sorghumsudan hybrids, may accumulate high levels of nitrates in their stems. There is little or no relationship between prussic acid and nitrate poisoning. However, HCN poisoning is often confused with nitrate poisoning since environmental conditions and animal symptoms of the two disorders are somewhat similar.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

At meeting Redman was in attendance. He was asked about this and he said very much the same as that which was sent out through the TAMU communications system.
That frarm and other farms were tested and prussic acid to some degree was present.

They did not spread out through out the state looking for prussic acid in T-85, at least not yet.

Something to remember is those cattle were Rodeo Practice cattle and had just finished a workout. They were hot, tired and hungry. Cattle on the other side of the fence that did nothing all day but eat and sleep did not show any symptoms.

This is a very lucrative & exciting sideline business and the owner emediatly replaced those cattle for his cutomors needed practice.
The local media that reported the situation was not a qualified Agricultural Reporter. It was not too much different than the Kentucky Derby horse pulling a tendon before his next race. No one mentions the strain those horses are exposed to. Some places do not put a saddle on a horse as young as these horses are running in high dollar races.


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