# To buy hay or fertilizer.... $$ that is the question



## Mountaineer (Jan 19, 2019)

Either purchasing hay or fertilizer.. the end goal is more hay. I was just wondering if you all might have a formula that you use to determine which is more cost efficient ?


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Yeesh. I'd hate to try to pencil that one out. Just the amount of variables that are present can either make or break you either side of the norm. That's a tough spot to be in and I don't envy you trying to figure this one out.

Do you have all the equipment and land needed to make the type of hay you're after? Do you have the time to produce this hay without driving yourself crazy? Do you have plenty of experience in how to make hay and keep the machinery running and can you fix this equipment when (not if!) they break?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Number Five needs more input.

Ralph


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Fertilizer.
I have learned I save by making more hay on less ground. 
With me it was higher quality fertilized hay to feed or feed lesser quality and supplement feed. I spend a good bit more on fertilizer than my friends. The upfront cost is a big hit. The yields are worth it to me.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Tim/South said:


> Fertilizer.
> I have learned I save by making more hay on less ground.
> With me it was higher quality fertilized hay to feed or feed lesser quality and supplement feed. I spend a good bit more on fertilizer than my friends. The upfront cost is a big hit. The yields are worth it to me.


Ditto. Nothing like wasting $ and time to go over twice as much ground to get lower quality hay.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If you can buy hay for a reasonable price, I think that’s the side I fall on if I understand your question correctly. You’ll feed this hay to generate manure and then hopefully you’ll use that manure instead of some of the fertilizer you would otherwise have to purchase. That said I’d still acquire some sort of fertility in the form of at least some chemical fertilizer or higher powered manure if available.


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## msch99 (Jan 18, 2020)

As said above, a ton of variables.

Do you own or rent the ground? If you rent, I would want a long term lease.

Have you soil tested? If not that would be the first thing to find out if you have easy potential increase in yield.

Are you already successfully baling and have the time, equipment needed? If not buy hay probably. Or find custom baler to start out while you learn. Cost per bale is high for small operations, but also depends on timeing and availability of custom operators.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

If fertilizer is high in price and hay is low in price buy hay.
If hay is high in price and fertilizer low buy fertilizer.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

hog987 said:


> If fertilizer is high in price and hay is low in price buy hay.
> If hay is high in price and fertilizer low buy fertilizer.


I can see what you are saying, but what factors help you make your choice if they are both priced in a relatively moderate range?

Regards, Mike


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

On paper it sounds Easy. But on some ground Not properly fertilizing the crop can end up with tons of weeds and other undesirable things.


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## Mountaineer (Jan 19, 2019)

Ox76 said:


> Yeesh. I'd hate to try to pencil that one out. Just the amount of variables that are present can either make or break you either side of the norm. That's a tough spot to be in and I don't envy you trying to figure this one out.
> 
> Do you have all the equipment and land needed to make the type of hay you're after? Do you have the time to produce this hay without driving yourself crazy? Do you have plenty of experience in how to make hay and keep the machinery running and can you fix this equipment when (not if!) they break?


1. Have all the equipment

2. Own & lease

3. Time..... I can always use more . As far as driving myself crazy... well , That's up in the air. There is probably a reason why I drink so much during hay season.

4. Experience.... Been making hay since I was old enough to carry a bale and I'm 40 now. Usually try to fix everything except for stuff like this baler which has a computer on it and was giving me a fit in the 19 year



rjmoses said:


> Number Five needs more input.
> 
> Ralph


Number 5 ?



Tim/South said:


> Fertilizer.
> I have learned I save by making more hay on less ground.
> With me it was higher quality fertilized hay to feed or feed lesser quality and supplement feed. I spend a good bit more on fertilizer than my friends. The upfront cost is a big hit. The yields are worth it to me.


Makes sense. If I have to run the equipment over the ground multiple times, I might as well make the most hay while doing it.


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## Mountaineer (Jan 19, 2019)

Hayman1 said:


> Ditto. Nothing like wasting $ and time to go over twice as much ground to get lower quality hay.


True that . But I'm not gonna mine my own ground when someone else is willing to mine theirs for less, given hay quality is close via a test .



8350HiTech said:


> If you can buy hay for a reasonable price, I think that's the side I fall on if I understand your question correctly. You'll feed this hay to generate manure and then hopefully you'll use that manure instead of some of the fertilizer you would otherwise have to purchase. That said I'd still acquire some sort of fertility in the form of at least some chemical fertilizer or higher powered manure if available.


Right, but when does reasonable become unreasonable from a dollar standpoint?



msch99 said:


> As said above, a ton of variables.
> 
> Do you own or rent the ground? If you rent, I would want a long term lease.
> 
> ...


on the lease ground the owner doesn't want a long term lease .... It's just on a year to year basis, so I'm hesitant about

spending too much on fertilizing someone else's ground

Soil test - we do from our own ground but not on the lease. The lease has been mined . I know what it needs .

We are already doing the hay there now anyway.



hog987 said:


> If fertilizer is high in price and hay is low in price buy hay.
> If hay is high in price and fertilizer low buy fertilizer.


Your very right & on the right track . Could you put some numbers out there for what is high and what is low ? 
Figuring the numbers for purchasing hay is easy. I got that. 
Figuring the numbers for production is more involved. It involves fuel,oil, grease, twine, net, blades, tires ,time, lease , equipment, fertilizer, etc. etc.

I just figured someone on this board has already been down this road and has some figures.


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## Mountaineer (Jan 19, 2019)

Also, do you all compare production costs per ton ?


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

Number 5 is a reference to the movie Short Circuit, where a robot (Number 5) gets hit by lightning and comes alive, and he's always going around looking for "input". Need input...information...feedback...data...input! Back in the 80s it was the talk among the high schoolers because it was so funny - it might still be funny, but it seems whenever I watch a movie I thought was good back then, today it's kinda crap...


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## danwi (Mar 6, 2015)

I help a neighbor some that has a boarding stable. He has his own haybine and rake and hires the big baling done. Over the years he has made his own hay and has had to buy hay.The past 2 years we have had a hard time getting alot of hay dry. out of his three crops of hay this year he had to give away two because they got rained on and his boarders complain if he doesn't have good hay for the horses and so he has ended up buying hay the last 2 years. The other thing that adds insult to injury is he is renting the hay fields because when his partner died the estate split the farm up on him.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Maybe this will help you (go to post #25 where you can down load the spreadsheet, I believe).

https://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/91018-what-is-your-cost-of-production/page-2?hl=productioncost

Generally I would say it would make sense to fertilize, rational: as Tim, Hayman & Enrow mention, more efficient and less undesirable product in your hay (in my area some weeds thrive on poorer soil it seems).

On leased ground, you might not want to build the bank back up, but still some fertilizing could pencil out. I use the rule of thumb of around 50# actual potash and 8-10# of phosphorus removal by each ton of hay removed.

Usually in my area, old hay fields are really short on K, but it might break the bank to try to build the soil back up in one year. So...&#8230;&#8230;. (thanks to Mark here), I rebuild the soil bank over a 3-4 years period. Example: if I'm going for a 3 ton yield and the ground is short say 300# of K, I would put on 250# of actual K (the 150# for the hay removed, plus 1/3 of the 300# shortage (100#)). It would take me three years to build the bank back up, verses putting 450# the first year.

The nice thing about having the bank built back up, in years when fertilizer prices seem high or hay prices lower, you can skimp/skip the fertilizer if needed. 

One problem I'm going to point out with my numbers is they are based on alfalfa or alfalfa/grass hay, not hay that has a higher nitrogen requirement, YMMV. 

HTH

Larry


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## cjsr8595 (Jul 7, 2014)

I agree with fertilizing and not covering as much ground. It sucks to run over the same amount of ground and get 1/3 the yield.


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## Farmineer95 (Aug 11, 2014)

I agree, every acre is in production. Fence lines maintained and potholes drained.
I've heard others say it's more efficient to have more ground. I don't understand that train of thought.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Always fertilize.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Perhaps in WV you have infrequent droughts. Here in TX drought is a concern. If it isn't drought, it could be army worms or stem maggot in our bermudagrass hay field. In our situation we always attempt to have a two-year supply of RBs in the barn. Fertilize to get as much hay as possible in the first cutting bc the second growth may not make much hay. Even when the barn is full to start the winter feeding, we plant cool-season forages and fertilize to increase its growth and hopefully cut down on feeding hay. It's much easier to open gates for cattle to walk in and graze winter forages than it is to put out RBs that may have up to $60 in fertilizer and haying costs in them. I have never purchased hay to feed on our place bc of the potential of bringing in other people's weeds. This doesn't necessarily answer your question, but it's another approach.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Leased hay fields can be an interesting topic in itself.

I agree with Dr. Haby about bringing in hay unless you can help it. Kind of like keeping a closed herd of cattle.


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## Edd in KY (Jul 16, 2009)

You have the ground, you have the equipment, your fuel cost and time will be about the same whether you get 50 bales per acre or 75 bales. With your fixed costs almost the same, the big difference is in the variable costs. I plan to put down about $80/acre in fertilizer. At $5/bale that is 16 bales. And I don't have to run all over hell trying to find good hay at a reasonable price. Of course, there is the chance of drought/ too much rain / equipment breakdown/ earthquake/nuclear attack....


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Edd in KY said:


> You have the ground, you have the equipment, your fuel cost and time will be about the same whether you get 50 bales per acre or 75 bales. With your fixed costs almost the same, the big difference is in the variable costs. I plan to put down about $80/acre in fertilizer. At $5/bale that is 16 bales. And I don't have to run all over hell trying to find good hay at a reasonable price. Of course, there is the chance of drought/ too much rain / equipment breakdown/ earthquake/nuclear attack....


In the FWIW column, I have never failed to make my fertilizer money back on first cutting and I have had some pretty lofty bills-around 150/ac. Even when cooler than normal or dryer than normal. Now 2nd or 3rd with topdressing, that is a total crap shoot.


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