# Crimson clover in the hay meadow



## nhbaler282

I heard the other day,that clover is not recomended in a hay meadow,because when the hay is cut and baled and removed the nitrogen is removed with the hay. They say that the nitrogen is in the plant. I always understood that the nitrogen is in the nodules on the roots and removing the plant didn't loose the nitrogen. If this is correct then planting clover in a hay meadow doesn't gain anything?


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## cattleman4170

the nitrogen is in the nodules like you thought. Nirtogen in the plant matter is converted to protein through photosynthesis. test have proven that clovers will "fix" as much as 200# to the acre of nitrogen in the soil. But like all green growing matter, other soil nutrients are also depleted by harvest. Just do some research on nitrogen fixation in the soil. Happy reading.


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## Barry Bowen

Personal opinion, unless you can get it really dry, clover has never made hay worth having around here. Best solution for any clover in a hay field, 2-4D. Works well every time.


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## vhaby

Rhizobia are a genus of bacteria used to inoculate legume seed and provide nitrogen for these legumes. There are various species of Rhizobia to use on different legumes such as crimson clover. These bacteria locate themselves in nodules of the clover roots near the soil surface. Rhizobia take nitrogen from the air and convert it to the form of nitrogen that the clover plant can use. Rhizobia-fixed nitrogen moves from the nodules into the above-ground vegetation and into plant roots. If you should succeed in make hay out of crimson or most other clovers, the hay would remove much of the plant nitrogen from the field.

An answer given earlier, that hay fields should not be seeded to clovers is correct. In order for the nitrogen in the clover plants to most easily get into the soil to benefit grass that will follow, the clover should be grazed. Ninety or more percent of the nutrients consumed by grazing cattle are returned to the soil via animal urine and fecal matter.

Clover growing in a hay meadow will compete with the grass, preventing the grass from receiving much of the sunlight needed for photosynthesis, and thus suppress grass production. The clover will out compete the grass because clover has its own nitrogen source and shares very little of this nitrogen to the current grass growth.


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## sedurbin

I guess everyone can have an opinion, here's mine. In mid Missouri, Medium Red Clover is pretty good hay as long as you can get it to dry. (Crimson Clover, is not so good) As far as food value is concerned, Med Red is close to Alfalfa when put up correctly. I personally like to have a Red Clover mix in most of my hay fields, it cuts down on the fertilizer bill as it adds N to the soil and adds additional nutrients to the hay crop. Horses love it when you can get their owners to let them have it. Some worry about slobbers, most of the time it is not a problem and even if they do slobber some, there is no harm done. I believe most of the bad press is due to people not getting the clover dry before baling and then you have mold.

Just my 2 cents

Here is a good reference link
http://extension.missouri.edu/publications/DisplayPub.aspx?P=G4638


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## jhag

In my experience, the buyer never wants red clover in their hay. It seems that there is a rumor going around with horse owners that it is bad for their animals. Red clover is very hard to get dry and when it does dry, usually goes quite dark brown in color. This is probably the real "problem". But as one of my standardbred customers says " horses will eat any kind of hay, its the owners who decide what the horse likes". And he WILL feed any type of hay! Been in the race horse business for 40 years so I guess he knows what he is talking about.

Jim


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## hay wilson in TX

Clovers seldom leave 200 pounds of Nitrogen in the Soil. Assuming they do BUT you have a 50/50 grass clover mix, that will dilute the nitrogen. Grass hay at 10% CP is 1.60% N or 37 lbs N/Ton of grass. That is saying the hay is cut at an 8 week interval. Cut at a 6 week interval for a 12% CP grass hay you have 1.95% N or 40 lbs N/Ton in the GRASS hay. 
Assuming 4 ton annual yield and half is grass, the 50% grass will remove remove 74 to 80 lbs of Nitrogen. That sounds good, more or less. Thing is, the nitrogen that is left in the soil is in organic form and only about 25% is available for the grass *that year*. 
The second year is a little better as you have that 25% of the assumed 200 lbs, plus 25% of the remaining Nitrogen from the first year. 
That all sounds like in a few years you have use of a full 200 lbs of N plus even more from the clovers. Not so fast The Rhizobia do not bother pulling in nitrogen if there is nitrogen present in the soil. The result is the second year the clover supplies less than the assumed 200 lbs/A/N !

Second thought for you. It is alfalfa that is credited with supplying the soil with 200 lbs/A/N, and that is for a 4 year stand that is plowed under while still a useful stand.

Now I am gong to tell on good vhoby. He is a fully qualified forage authority out in the real world as a fully occupied Cattle Farmer. 
I have probably known him for 25 to 30 years and I can attest to his depth of knowledge. He probably learned a lot over those years as he worked diligent to prove that alfalfa is a viable crop in those acid sandy lands in East Texas. To the best of my knowledge he succeeded with alfalfa in the heart of bermudagrass country.

Remember if you fertilize for the clover the grass percentage will decline. Fertilize for the grass & the clover perentage will decline. In A Hay Field. Clovers in a pasture is a winning combination. 
This from a Hay Grower not a Stockman.


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## cattleman4170

True, only in a University Test plot can you realize a 200#/Acre nitrogen result.
But always, this is the TOP end of their claim. Most folks that are in farming, least the one's I know, can't afford the same application of subsidized and grant rich suppliments of fertilizer and innoculants and such. But as a way to help the farmer, clovers can make a difference in your pocket book. Especially now that all the fertilizer companies are making such huge profits shipping our goods to the likes of India, China, and South America.
If it is only 80#/acre of nitrogen that helps me. 
I remember an old saying white for horses red of cows, clover that is.


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## vhaby

Now I am gong to tell on good vhaby. He is a fully qualified forage authority out in the real world as a fully occupied Cattle Farmer. 
I have probably known him for 25 to 30 years and I can attest to his depth of knowledge. He probably learned a lot over those years as he worked diligent to prove that alfalfa is a viable crop in those acid sandy lands in East Texas. To the best of my knowledge he succeeded with alfalfa in the heart of bermudagrass country.[/QUOTE] Don't know if I did this quote right...

Thank you, Hay Wilson. I'm honored to have such a good publicity manager.

To see the success that I/we had overcoming the acid soil problems for growing alfalfa in the primarily bermudagrass areas of the Coastal Plain, go to Texas AgriLife Research and Extension Center at Overton

Once in that site, look to the upper left and see "Forages, Crops, & Soils; click on "Soils Research" and my web site on alfalfa will open. We started researching alfalfa by over seeding it into Coastal bermudagrass, so much of the information discusses alfalfa in bermudagrass. Later, we realized that alfalfa and bermudagrass were not the best mix, so we abandoned the idea, and went with alfalfa alone. Why devalue the "Queen of Forages" by planting it into bermudagrass that has poor nutritive value when it is not fertilized with nitrogen.

We did not attempt to make hay out of the mix, and grazing the two didn't work. Cattle that were accustomed to eating bermudagrass, when turned into the mix grazed the bermudagrass. When they had it down to the ground, they were forced to take a bite of the alfalfa and liked it. After taking the cattle out of the pasture to allow regrowth to occur, these same cattle were returned to the alfalfa/bermudagrass mix and they grazed the alfalfa down to the ground and would not eat the bermudagrass which then would have to be cut for poor quality hay in order to get it off the pasture. No fertilizer nitrogen was applied to the mix that was fertilized according to the needs of the alfalfa.


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