# Hydraulics issue? Tractor or haybine?



## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

The equipment is my Ford 4610 and mint 488 haybine, that has been meticulously maintained by an apparently OCD previous owner. The machine is well adjusted and works and runs very smoothly.

I have an extremely aggravating issue where, after I've been mowing for an hour or two, the mower will no longer lower all the way. I can get about 5 acres done where lift and lower hydraulics function perfectly. But then when I go to drop the mower after making an end of row turn, the mower might not drop all the way. I have to raise it back up and try dropping it again. Sometimes it will then drop all the way down, but at one point today there was no way I could make it drop. I am suspecting it's a tractor hydraulics issue. Here's what I can tell you:

1) I noticed if I drop the engine speed before lower the mower, it's more likely to lower all the way. But this could just be coincidence. There were several times when it still did not drop all the way despite this.

2). Tractor hydraulic fluid was full. I topped it off before, and then verified during.

3). At one point, I shut the tractor off, then bumped the hydraulics to let the mower lower. It still only lowered part way.

4). My rotary rake has a single action lift cylinder. I have no problems raising or dropping the rake.

Could my hydraulic pump not be letting the fluid return all the way on the return cycle? I've used a JD4010 with this mower before, mowed 7 acres with it and never had this issue. So I'm suspecting it's my tractor. What could I check?

I had to stop mowing my second field of the day today with only a few acres left, which was irritating.


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## HayMike (Mar 22, 2011)

What happens if you switch the hoses?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

HayMike said:


> What happens if you switch the hoses?


And what happens if he tries the 4010 again.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

HayMike said:


> What happens if you switch the hoses?


 good idea! Did not think of that and have not tried it. Were you thinking along the lines to see if I then had issues with lifting?


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

8350HiTech said:


> And what happens if he tries the 4010 again.


I was just mowing with the 4010 yesterday and no issues, but I was only mowing for 40 minutes. I can go for that long with my own tractor and not have issues. The 4010 is 5 miles away and not mine. I need it at the farm it's at as I'm doing their hay with it.

what would be good is if I were to have the 4010 handy, I could switch tractors midstream as soon as the issue started to see if it resolved.


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Switch hoses?? The haybine should have a single action cylinder as well as his rake. Switch outlet and try the other tractor when possible will narrow down which piece is it.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

IH 1586 said:


> Switch hoses?? The haybine should have a single action cylinder as well as his rake. Switch outlet and try the other tractor when possible will narrow down which piece is it.


The haybine has a double action cylinder. I'm not sure why it needs one though. But that's how all of them I've seen have been.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

edit//nevermind


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

The outlets on my Kubota and JD are opposite as the JD are side to side and the Kubota are vertical for same valve. I had hooked up the JD vertically when means both valves were being used and it did about same as your is. Now this was on a disk and if memory is correct it was the lowering was where it showed up. I guess it was acting as a single action cylinder for trying to retract the double acting cylinder there was no pressure there. Caution, if this is what is going on be prepared for pressure to be on the wrong hooked up hose so be sure to release pressure on both valves.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Hayjosh said:


> The haybine has a double action cylinder. I'm not sure why it needs one though. But that's how all of them I've seen have been.


NH 488 parts catalog shows only 1 hose & breather in other cylinder port.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Josh, one of my tractors (Farmall 460) will do that periodically. On my tractor, there is a little twisty-knob at the hyd valve to switch from single-acting (one hose) to double-acting valve (2 hose). Anyway, the valve's detent is broken (a two-hunnert pound numbskull with a crescent hammer got ahold of it) and the valve will drift once the hydraulics get hot/warm. Thought my baler was going crap on me til I finally found the problem.

Prolly ain't same as your problem, thought it might me worth mentioning as it don't cost nothin'.

Mark


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## paoutdoorsman (Apr 23, 2016)

Does your 4610 have a second SCV? Have you tried switching to it when the problem starts?


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Ok when this happens get off and try to remove hose at quick connect. Use your average effort to try and unplug it. If it disconnects easily then your cylinder may have a plugged vent or possible damage internally. 
If you can NOT disconnect the fitting easily then your tractors valve has an issue or it has a bad vent on the transmission.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Ran into that problem already and I mean exactly what you're saying and it won't drop.. the old guy who is long gone who used to work on Farm Equipment up the road, when somebody said they had that problem. He would say you probably got balls on the tractor and tits on the hose. Some Pioneer couplers use a round ball in the center and others use a pointy tip. Whatever the tractor Outlets have try to match your haybines hose-end


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

endrow said:


> Ran into that problem already and I mean exactly what you're saying and it won't drop.. the old guy who is long gone who used to work on Farm Equipment up the road, when somebody said they had that problem. He would say you probably got balls on the tractor and tits on the hose. Some Pioneer couplers use a round ball in the center and others use a pointy tip. Whatever the tractor Outlets have try to match your haybines hose-end


Why would that supposed incompatibility only rear it's head after he's mowed for two hours? That would be more of an all or nothing problem, would it not? (I've also never had a problem running balls and points together but I guess it could be an issue to someone)


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Lots of awesome discussion, I can't address all points now but will eventually.

--just one set of SCV

--SO...one of my couplers is with the pointy tip (meant to be able to depress on a solid surface to relieve internal hose pressure). This is on the lift valve. The drop valve has the regular ball in the end....so Endrow could be on to something, but at same time, only seems to happen once hydraulic fluid gets hot. I had to put new lines on the mower, and TSC only had one of the ball-type Pioneer couplers left, so I go the second one with the pointy tip. Kind of wish I had gotten both of them like that. Inside the SCV ports it kind of looks like it should match up with the 'pointy tip.'


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Older Fords, used the' pointy' tips (Poppet type) as standard equipment in MY area. I have gotten away with the ball type (generally called Pioneer), most of the time. Why would I have the ball type? Hmmm, cheaper to buy is probably the biggest reason. Poppet type, you will probably need to go to a dealership, I've never seen them in my local TSC. But then again, the closest TSC store doesn't have 14' gates, but the one 12 miles farther away does, so YMMV.

There might be an adjustment for your hydraulic circuit on your tractor that could need adjustment. Seems you are using it in two different fashions. One: with a two way cylinder (double acting), two: with a single acting cylinder. IDK your tractor, but check the owners manual on settings for single and/or double acting cylinders.

Larry


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

r82230 said:


> Older Fords, used the' pointy' tips (Poppet type) as standard equipment in MY area. I have gotten away with the ball type (generally called Pioneer), most of the time. Why would I have the ball type? Hmmm, cheaper to buy is probably the biggest reason. Poppet type, you will probably need to go to a dealership, I've never seen them in my local TSC. But then again, the closest TSC store doesn't have 14' gates, but the one 12 miles farther away does, so YMMV.
> 
> There might be an adjustment for your hydraulic circuit on your tractor that could need adjustment. Seems you are using it in two different fashions. One: with a two way cylinder (double acting), two: with a single acting cylinder. IDK your tractor, but check the owners manual on settings for single and/or double acting cylinders.
> 
> Larry


I bought the poppet type at TSC as well. I'm going to swing by tonight and get another one. I really think we're on to something here because this issue did not start UNTIL I put new hydraulic hoses on the mower. And when I put new hoses on I had to get new couplers too. I need to check the couplers I took off, however now thinking about it, I think they were the ball type. That being said I did not use the mower much before I switched out the lines.

Also, my coupler on the rake is a poppet style, and I never have issues with that.

John Deere doesn't have issues because it has it's own style.

On my hydraulics, if I'm just using a single action cylinder then I plug into the 'lift' SCV (per the manual).


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Hayjosh said:


> John Deere doesn't have issues because it has it's own style.


I don't have years of experience with JD, well three. My JD is a few years old maybe eight or so. But I use Pioneer on my JD and it is my understanding JD did have their own style but thought that was years ago.

Hayjosh forgot to ask you, any chance you got a defective hose when you got the new hoses? It is possible it is collapsing when hot? Would doubt it unless it has been kinked or such to the point the wall was broken or the end was not installed correctly. Have you removed the pressure fitting to be sure no trash in there? New hose could had trash in end.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Ok so an interesting update after some experiments..


I mowed several acres tonight after I had already baled about 10 acres at a field 2 miles away, so the tractor was good and hot.
I put a new poppet connector on the hose with the ball on it, so both hoses now have poppets.
Everything was going fine but once again the mower started not dropping on the first try. Raising it back up and dropping it again did always drop it. BEFORE, this was not always the case.
Once I confirmed I was having the lowering issue again, I reversed the hoses. This next part might be important -- My SCVs are quick connects. With the tractor running I can disconnect the hose that lifts. However the hose that lowers cannot be disconnected, even though the cylinder is completely retracted. I have to shut the tractor off, hit the hydraulic lever to let off the pressure, and only then can I pull the hose out.
Reversing the hoses still gave me the same problem, still problems dropping, but fine raising.

The problem wasn't near as bad tonight as it normally is, so the poppet *might* have had some effect but there still looks to be something else.

To answer other questions...


my tractor doesn't have a switch for single or double action cylinders. You just use the 'raise' SCV valve for single action cylinders.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Hayjosh

Does your tractor have the CCLS hyd system? Several yrs back I owned a 5610 with CCLS system that the breakaway couplers acted similar to your tractor. IIRC the flow control valve in breakaway coupler was at fault.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Just to update this since I got t fixed this year...the hydraulic cylinder on the mower was bad. So I swapped that out and no more issues.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Hayjosh said:


> Just to update this since I got t fixed this year...the hydraulic cylinder on the mower was bad. So I swapped that out and no more issues.


Wow ---- I was going to pitch my tale of woe from my 488 this yr. Same thing --- "driven by a little old lady on Sundays" ....... 2005 model with paint still in places it should have been worn off of long ago. Anyway, this year we had a lot of lodging in one field so some guard plugging issues that you need to raise the header and backup a few feet to clear. All of a sudden I couldn't get the thing to go down ....... figured maybe something mucked up underneath jamming something up. Nope. Then realized it was being held up on one side ..... where the driveline is. The damn rear shaft had somehow gotten stuck in the extended position. Pulled the driveline and then chained it to a tree and pulled it apart using the pickup (yes that stuck). No twists but the solid square portion had some weird chattering of the metal. I ended up taking the grinder to it and lubed it up ..... worked okay. Still wonder WTF happened to cause that.

Glad your solution was simpler and effective.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

You need to hang a gremlin bell on that machine to keep the gremlins away! Both you guys! All of us guys/gals!


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Ox76 said:


> You need to hang a gremlin bell on that machine to keep the gremlins away! Both you guys! All of us guys/gals!


I'll be danged!! Knew they worked fer zing-splats and murder-sickles; didn't know they worked for hay-sickles too.


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## Ox76 (Oct 22, 2018)

I shoulda hung one of them bells on....well......something on me to keep gremlins away and maybe I'd still have some cartilage left in my back!


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