# Tall hay going into winter?



## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

This will have to be our worst hay year ever! We still have 500 acres of 2nd cutting hay to make and about 1000 acres of 3rd cutting. We should be finishing 3rd cutting about now and some 4th cutting. We have a lot of hay in the field that is 2-4 ft high! It has rained a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All Summer!!!!!!!!!!! We may have some opportunities in the next couple weeks to bale a little more of this hay, but I doubt we will get it all baled. How would you approach a situation like this to put the fields in the best shape for next year? Bushog them? Cut the hay and let it lay? Burn it off in January?


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## TBrown (Nov 27, 2008)

What type of hay is it? mostly grass? I would try like heck to get it all baled off even if the quality falls off if you can do so without nitrate problems and tearing up your fields. we have bushhogged fields in the past and you end up with a lot of trash in your hay the first cut the next year but sometimes thats the only option. Start mowing...i'll head that way in the 7930 to help ya bale...i'll be there in three days LOL


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'm in the same situation. While I don't have near that much to make, in our area according to Purdue we are supposed to stop cutting on the 15th of September to allow a month of regrowth before the first killing frost. Problem is with the horrible weather we've had the last 3 weeks I still have 10 acres of third to make for the neighbor, 40 acres of fourth, and 25 acres of 3 rd. If we don't get a killing frost shortly those numbers could rise as its still growing. Which doesn't seem like a lot, but those fields are as opposite points of the compass as I can get so a lot of driving between them, and this time of year it will take at least five days to get it to dry down. The neighbors has to be done as he needs it for the hay burners. The rest I'm tempted to see if the other neighbor would be willing to large square it wet and wrap it for half the hay.

I've read more than one article that says to leave it instead of cutting it this late, but on the first cutting what I don't keep for my beef cows the rest gets sold as horsehay and can't hardly have this years crop in it as it makes for some ugly bales.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

It is a/o and fescue and t/o. The problem is we don't have a swamp buggy with a mower on it. We have left ruts in every field this year except maybe twice. You are pushing mud out from under the tires when you cut the field and having to leave the wet spots when you bale the field. Unthinkable that you would get a 4wd cutter stuck in August, and not be able to bale 1 day in September. Now we are getting rain almost every day in Oct.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

It's not that wet here yet. Simple fact of the matter is though, we have a chance of rain nearly everyday for the next week. Even when the sun is out its still damp. Have maybe got two inches in the last 3 weeks, couple of tenths here, couple of tenths there.


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## okhillbilly (Jun 18, 2009)

On the grass hay I can't get baled by before we get a hard freeze. I'm going to bale it as filler hay and mix it with good hay to feed my cows this winter. I usually feed cubes anyway during winter. May have to feed some extra to keep up there body fat.


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## okhillbilly (Jun 18, 2009)

I've seen alot of cattle farmers around here cutting hay in December around here. At least the drying time ought to be short. I would'nt sell it to any customers unless there desperate for hay and they knew what I was selling to them.


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## Heyhay..eh (Aug 7, 2009)

A few years back a neighbour had 200a of 2nd cut hay that he couldn't get off because of rain & wet field conditions. He waited until the ground was frozen hard before tackling it. He was just ahead of the snow. And he still had all of his first cut bales in the field where they fell.

We put on a tractor with a loader to move the bales out of the way, a mower and right behind that the baler. We just backed the bales up 15 feet mowed and baled in one continuous operation.

The hay was not great but it was put through as chopper with good hay and some grain. Got him through the winter.

Next year his field was in good shape, no ruts, no old bottom or swaths to hamper mowing or mix in with the new hay crop.

Of course this would only work where you get freezing ground and you have a window before snow falls.

Anything you can do to get the old hay off the field will benefit you next year. I am cleaning up some field now just to get the old hay off. It is black and some has been down for a month or more. I am also going to see if I can get on with a roller/packer to fix up the ruts. I'm thinking that that should smooth things out a bit.

Burning : no good for the plants underneath the swath

Bush Mower: leaves trash in the next hay crop especially if it does not break it up fine. If it is very dry then this might be an option

Leaving it: Next year you will have more headaches than you can imagine especially if you are cutting with a knife It will jam up, cover the cutters, and make you hay look dirty.

Baling: best option if you can make it happen.

Sorry to hear about you plight, hope all works out for you.

Take care


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

PA:
Leave it there. The alfalfa will deteriorate to almost nothing, and the grass will shrivel to half it's height. If you have any snow on it will go down even more. Just depending on how high it is it won't be a problem for next year, but if you feel that it will be a problem, you can mow it off if the ground dries over winter, or while it's frozen. We mowed a lot of 2nd cut timothy and o-grass last year while it was darn cold outside - in winter you'll have a LOT less material to try to work with, and it will all be dead, and that means that it will work easier. We mowed a lot of alfalfa down in spring, and it was just really the stalks sticking up anymore, and then maybe only 50% of them. The last thing that I would do is mow it now. And there is enough junk hay on the market that the last thing you need is 'cheap' hay that is going to cost you money in the end. A flail mower will really work well where you have a lot of material - it will not windrow, and a plain ole batwing will work on alfalfa in spring. I know that's what were going to do. We've got all of the 2nd cut in, and we finally have some 3rd cut that is blooming, but now we're out of weather. We even mowed a lot of 2nd cut grass with the flail this summer - we had so much rain that all the weeds grew - even though there was a lot of material that we mowed, it dried to nearly nothing. If you want to mow right now, then a flail mower would be the ticket. A batwing will just windrow the chopped material.

Rodney

Not sure if it says. but this is SE PA.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've tried leaving it before, problem was when I was using a sickle and if it was a wet spring, that stuff from the fall before was half rotten yet and was a freakin nightmare to mow.

Then the tedder picks some of it up as well as the wheel rake, by time it finally got baled, those bales were just plain ugly. Since about 80% of my first cutting is sold as horse hay, having this years crop in next years first cutting is not an option.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

we burned off about 3 acres this spring as an experment and it seemed to work well. I know several farmers in MI who burn a lot in the spring. That would remove all the thatch and put it down as fertilizer. Also the kids would have fun. and you don't have a lot of expense associated with doing such - just time. Anyone done much burning?


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## okhillbilly (Jun 18, 2009)

I've done some burning with some of my field. It really helps the field. The biggest problem with burning is the liability. If it ever gets out of control "you " are responsible for any damage to anybody else's property ! They have state rules about control burns you are required to follow in Oklahoma. Some are file planes with the fire department 2 weeks in advance and notify your neigbors at the same time. Do you have any idea how to predict the weather 2 weeks away?


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## Heyhay..eh (Aug 7, 2009)

Had hay in swaths and burned it. Bad idea. It left rows without any plant life and the weeds got in right away. I know that burning give good doses of bio char and it might give a different result if the hay is still standing and the fire is not concentrated on the ground. In the swaths was just too much heat.

Take care


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

You guys are giving me a panick attack with the horror stories about leaving standing hay in the field. Do you get a lot of snow to insulate over winter? We've had a lot of bare ground the past few years, would that maybe have an effect on how much 'stuff' was there in spring? The alfalfa that we have left in the field was about 2 ft tall, not quite in bloom, and by spring..... maybe only half of it was still there, and it had thinned out a lot. A pass with the batwing shattered the rest of it. Last time I saw a field burned, it was in rolls and it smoldered for 2 weeks, and the field had to be replanted. If the material was dry and spread out, it might be alright.

Rodney


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## okhillbilly (Jun 18, 2009)

I agree with (hayhay..eh) about burning in a windrow. Definatly kills the grass under the windrow. Brother-in-law had hay in his field that got alot of rain on it and burned it off, nothing but weeds in thier now. Most year the regrowth after the last cut is minimal and burning is easly controled. But this year we have as much regrowth as a first cut. Real fire hazard after it dies off for the winter. That's one reason to get it cut off. It will still make filler hay if its not wet and moldy before its baled.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I have never seen a problem leaving it. However, I still plan on baling, I still have some first cut brome sitn somewhere I got to get to and pleanty of 2nd and 3rd. I still bale right up until the snow flies, Im not giving up. I always get some 1st cut brome baled this time of year into November in good shape but the rest will most likely be cattle feed. I did bale some beutiful 3rd cut alfalfa last year in November, seems like it eventually gets freeze dried.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Rodney R said:


> You guys are giving me a panick attack with the horror stories about leaving standing hay in the field. Do you get a lot of snow to insulate over winter? We've had a lot of bare ground the past few years, would that maybe have an effect on how much 'stuff' was there in spring? The alfalfa that we have left in the field was about 2 ft tall, not quite in bloom, and by spring..... maybe only half of it was still there, and it had thinned out a lot. A pass with the batwing shattered the rest of it. Last time I saw a field burned, it was in rolls and it smoldered for 2 weeks, and the field had to be replanted. If the material was dry and spread out, it might be alright.
> 
> Rodney


Normally if its only a foot tall or so I'll leave. Stuff I'm looking at trying to get done yet this year is over knee high. I've left hay that tall in the past and enough is left come May that I can't hardly sell it for horse hay as its real ugly by time the tedder and the rake lifts some more of it up and adds it to the fresh hay.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Maybe the thing is that more often then not, the winter we have is open, or there are bare ground periods. I would guess that if it would snow, and things would stay covered, the hay left in the field would be a problem, as the snow would tend to 'insulate' and maybe keep the hay from decomposing? That's never been a problem here - it all goes to nothing over winter - I guess that the lack of snow helps in that regard - the alfalfa and grasses shrivel up to nothing. A quick pass with a bushhog in spring and what is out there shatters to nothing. Like Wilson always says - there is no universal truth about haymaking.

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

So...mowed some last Sunday the 1st and some more on the second. Laid it out narrow so the ground could dry between the rows. Tedded it every day after the third day. Almost dry Saturdy, didn't quite get there though, and had fog with a 1/4 mile visibilty Sunday morning. Got wet enough literally had to start over. Monday was overcast all day and I baled it anyways. Soon as the hay hit the chamber it buried my Harvest tec unit. Seen one reading of 33% before it went to reading High. Neighbor came over and wrapped it yesterday for me for 7 bucks a bale. Not sure if it was wet enough to make good silage or not, But if it comes down to nothing but snowflakes or cornstalks this winter, I'm sure the beef cows will eat it.

The one field I mowed was between knee and waist high, but I still only got one bale per acre.

Temps were in the 50's to lower 60's all the week it was down with little or no dew at night and a good stiff breeze, but still took almost a week to get not quite dry. If anybody else is in the same situation and you have a use for it, I would highly suggest making it wet and wrapping it before teddin it every morning 3 or 4 times.


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## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

Burning orchard grass is not a good idea no matter how tall. OG stores all of its regrowth energy above ground and you will destroy it. Switch grass or fescue will benefit from the burn as it stores it's regrowth energy underground.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

Orchardgrass and fescue are both cool season grass hay. I don't understand what you are saying about it storing its energy above the ground but not fescue. Is this your guess, your knowledge based on thousands of acres, please enlighten me. Not trying to be a smarty, just want to understand what you are saying.


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## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

I learned that little bit of info from University of Maryland Cooperative Extension people. The conversation had to due with appropriate cutting heights for various grasses. Orchard needs a taller cutting height around 4 inches, because its regrowth energy is in the crown above the ground surface. If you have a hay field that has both orchard and fescue, and you repeatedly cut the field short to get "
higher yields" you will eventually kill off the orchard and the fescue will take over. If you want to try an experiment cut orchard at 2, 3, and 4 inches and see which comes back the fastest and which does not come back at all if stressed. I actually took out some orchard fields cutting too low when I first got my disc bine, learned the hard way you know. I also attended a conference this summer in Winchester VA, put on by Virginia Cooperative extension folk concerning the longevity and vigor or orchard grass and the same subject came up. Bobby Clarke, the agent who ran the seminar told me the same thing MD Ag said. I am not making this up or trying to be smart in my reply, but do a little research and you will find out this difference between fescue and orchard for your self.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

ProductionAcres I believe is asking why one grass is better than another as a standing dry forage.

Here we have two types of bermudagrass that are in favor. One is Coastal which after a frost quits protecting the above ground nutrition in the plant. The other is another bermudagrass hybrid, Tifton 85, and after the first frost continues to protect the above ground nutrition in the plant. Both are summer perennials but they are different. 
I do not know or understand the mechanism that is at work here, but Coastal by February has lost most of it's nutritional value while the Tifton 85 will still test above 10% CP.

Clear as mud for sure, but just learn which grass fits your needs and use it, and never worry about the why


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## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

Production Acres: I only made 16K bales this year, down from 22K last year,so I do speak from a little experience. I make hay strictly for the horse market around here in Maryland, and these are some picky people. You better know a little something about what you are doing, or you will not sell anything. When I speak of regrowth energy I do not mean the nutrition in the hay, rather the energy the plant contains to put out new growth and continue production.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

Barry; the conversation concerns "tall hay going into winter" and the effects of burning "dormant" standing hay. The question was not the appropiate cutting height for regrowth vigor in orchardgrass fields during the summer and the effects that a 2" or 4" stubble has on regrowth. These are vastly different questions. And yes many years ago, in a drought situation, we scalped a nice orchardgrass field and lost the entire field, and thus I understand what you are trying to say; just have no clue how that affects burning a field of orchardgrass stubble in Jan. that is completly dormant.


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## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

Production Acres: The effect of burning dormant or not will be the same. The regrowth energy is stored in the above ground portion of the crown. If you burn that off it will not come back. If you can burn off just the dead leaves I would guess that would not kill it. My talk of the cutting height was to demonstrate that the regrowth energy is above ground as for example you can cut fescue and alfalfa as close as you want with no ill effects.


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

[/QUOTE]The root crown is a term used to describe an area of above-ground plant matter that has several important functions. For most of our cool-season, perennial grasses, the root crown area is about 3 inches above the soil level. We must protect that crown from overuse and damage by leaving a good stubble height on our forages so that overall yield is optimized


> this is from shelby filley in an article about oregon forage.
> 
> I understand the need to protect the crown.
> 
> When you burn hay in a windrow, you have an intense heat and you cook the crowns on the remaining plant material. However, In the small burns we have done in the past, they were not windrowed and you have a flash burn; the temp never really gets that hot on the plant and the dead material is all that burns - the green material never burns! It doesn't seem to me that this would hurt the crown at all. And yes, the stubble height on the fescue and orchardgrass would be different after a burn due to the height of the crown and the live material.


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## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

Production Acres: I can see the distinction you are making and can see how the "flash burn" vs being in windrows, would not get the crowns hot enough for damage if there is not too much material there to burn. Around here fire is not a technique we can use anyway, local fire departments just do not allow it no matter what. Thanks for helping make things a little clearer.


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## fxrupr (Jun 30, 2009)

Question about burning vs mowing.
What have your experiences been with dead standing sudan grass and giant bluestem and Johnson grass? 
We have about 50 acres of 2nd cutting sudan 2 to 6 feet tall and a 15 acre field of giant bluestem 3 feet tall with Johnson grass throughout. Like you all, it has been too wet this fall to get into the fields. Now it has gotten frosted and most everything has been nipped hard. I am considering mowing everything with the disc mower set at 20 inches and then running the brushhog over that. The brushhog will shred the short stems better . The down side as mentioned before is the residue come 1st cutting next year. We also have the issue with the sudan in that we have to disc the fields and plant in late march. If the coulters on the seeder can't bury the seed because of to much trash then that fouls up planting. Also if we burn the bluestem we kill all the good seed heads, which are there now. This is a field we have been working to get established now for 3 years. 
One option we have discussed is put the dry cows in on it and let them knock down the seed heads and trample it in. This might work if we didn't already have to much grazing to keep up with on the pastures now that the oats and rye are up a foot. Funny just this June we were feeding last years hay because everything was dried up. Everybody was selling animals and praying for rain. O Susana It rained so hard the day I left&#8230; the weather it was dry. 
Another question comes up also. What effect does the ash from burning have on the N P K balance and what is the best way to incorporate the ash into the ground. If you are going to burn, when is the most benefit derived from the plant matter ash? Is it better to burn in the fall or in the spring? 
John north of Waco TX


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

The rules are the County Fire Martial has to know ahead of time.

You need a plan,

You can start the fire an hour after sunrise and must be done an hour before sunset.

You must have a 5 mph wind to burn but not more than 15 mph.

You are responsible for not causing any auto or train accidents with your smoke. You should not put smoke in your neighbors house.

As long as the fire is burning have someone watching it.

Burn in the spring just before green up. At that time much of the minerals will have washed out of the standing material.

Hints, Kill all the ryegrass and rescuegrass prior to burning. They will stop the fire and make a ton of smoke. 
With light wind burn a back fire to protect all the neighbors grass, and then set the head fire. 
Much wind at all use only back fires.

If it quits raining for two weeks round bale it and save some place that is high and dry.


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