# Repair or Replace?



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

I have a JD 346 prob close to 30 y/o, Last spring I fixed rust and repainted the whole baler and replaced belts, tines, pickup bearings, hay dog springs misc bolts and bearings and added an airbaler. The left side knotter has always been a problem.

Last 2 acres of the season the bale length became very erratic. I had a 10 foot bale perfectly straight and tied! So I stopped went out and adjusted the bale length just a bit and on the next row it went crazy, started tying every 6 inches then it started wrapping twine all over the billhooks, that was when I stopped the tractor, game over. i don't know what would make it act that way.

The shop wants to completely replace the knotter, plus other items. I can't see much wrong other than it went out of time left vs right. They say the billhooks have too much play but I unbolted the knotter brackets to try and unfreeze it. I loosened the right side but the left side is jammed.

I just don't know how much $$ to put into it or just give up. I'm expecting about 5-6000 bales this year. On the new side they have a new 328 for sale and the New Holland dealer has 2, one year old Hayliners for sale. Is it time to give up on JD square balers?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I just went through some headaches with a 336 baler I just picked up. Finally got it baling, but it would crap out a "tard" about 1 of every 8 bales. Not acceptable for me. 
Mine did the same as your's...... left side billhook kept holding onto the left side string. Right side worked fine. We cleaned it and adjusted it. There's some very helpful H/T members who talked me through some ideas to fix it. Finally, I hired the local "baler expert" and he was able to get it baling again ($150). However, I don't totally trust the repairs will hold. I may end up having a H/T member who offered to come up have a look at the cutter knives and maybe help me go through it. 
I can't have a "hit & miss" baler this season. Hopefully, better money will help me get a better baler in the near future.


----------



## hay rake (Dec 31, 2011)

davang. yes, buy the new holland. it does not have to be that new but in my opinion john deere never came close to a new holland baler. but after saying that if the rest of the baler is in good shape a new set of knotters is probably the cheapest way out. good luck gary


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

I, like you, have been back and forth with this baler. At times it can suck down hay and make great bales. Then it screws up. Then I get it readjusted somehow and we're back in business until the next screw up. The banana bales went away when I added the airbaler but I've seen one of these balers work just fine with springs, bale after bale. I don't think the mechanics at the JD dealer get enough experience to get good. They want $2800 to completely redo the knotters! I said just replace the billhooks and put it back together. That ain't gonna be that cheap cause labor is like $70 per hour. Funny thing, the sales manager wants to buy it from me for personal use so I think he might have him a baler! He does mostly rounds so he has a back up if the baler craps out. Thanks for $.02!


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

You might want to look around for a local guy that repairs balers rather than the dealer. Dealers are mostly "parts changers", not repairmen. That's why they want so much to repair it. They want to replace anything in or near the area of trouble rather than take what are probably a few simple steps to repair it. Like I said, mine was doing same as yours and I got a local repairman to get it baling again for $150. I like the road guys-they know how to get you going again with some shims and a couple simple tools. 
Spending over $2,500 to repair a 30+ yr old baler seems unwise. I only paid $2,000 for the 336 baler I have now and after a $150 repair, it works decent. I think it's just a few small repairs away from a serviceable future.

The fact that the owner of the dealership wants to buy it from you after suggesting it would cost $2,500 to repair would really make me suspicious. He may very well be trying to scare you into selling it because the repair costs are so high knowing all the while it won't cost very much to fix and he will end up with a good baler.


----------



## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

I agree with JD3430, there is something not right about that situation at all. In one breath he tells you it needs lot of $ put into it, and in the next he tells you he wants to buy it.


----------



## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

I agree that something doesn't sound right with the dealer, but I'm still a little confused about the bale length problem. Was only one side giving you the 10 foot bale or was the whole bale 10 feet long (both sides of twine). If both sets of twine screwed up, that tells me it is a problem with the quadrant and roller that you use to set the bale length, it could be that they have worn out bad enough that the two pieces are slipping and not holding a consistant length setting. These parts should be pretty easy to replace yourself. The other spot to check is where the trip for the knotter drive gear stops the knotters from turning. If there are a lot of warn parts, there won't be much engagement with the stop. This allows it to trip prematurely sometimes.

As for the knotter, I know a brand new knotter from JD is about $1,200 to $1,500 and if you have a manual you can put it in yourself. I would rather spend the $1,500 on the knotter, $60 on the CD version of the shop manual for the baler and do the repairs myself. 2 years ago, we had major problems with our balers knotters and I ended up getting to know them pretty well (better than I really ever wanted to). Both the owners manual and shop manual have really good information on what to adjust.


----------



## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

I think there's one thing that you guys arent considering, used equipment usually has some sort of problem. Lets say you run out and give your baler away which is prob whats gonna happen, they will hold you over the coals with it. So thats gonna be a loss. 2ndly, what happens when you get that new used baler home and it wont work correctly=loss. I think for the amount of hay your talking, I'd stick it out with the one you have and pay the repair cost. That's a baler you know. You know nothing about these other ones. The biggest profit is on equipment that you have owned over 5 yrs. so with alittle repair bill you should be off and running without any problems, ideally. If the thing doesnt work right after that, put it on craigslist and advertise that its been rebuilt. Take the money and go buy something else.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Balers are tough to buy because it's not very common that the seller can demostrate that it works correctly.


----------



## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

"If the thing doesnt work right after that, put it on craigslist and advertise that its been rebuilt. Take the money and go buy something else". 
And so the cycle of selling stuff that won't work properly continues.
I assume that your baler is in good shape, it just needs a little bit of TLC. You may as well get the repair done and continue to use it, unless you want to get something with higher capicity or so on... If that is the case then you can remove your air baler and get the proper brackets to install on whatever baler you buy.
Whatever is wrong with the 346, if that is the only thing that you don't like about the baler, get it fixed. If you don't trust the dealer take it to someone else.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Funny story with my 336 baler: Guy who sold it to me said it worked fine and offered to meet up with me after delivery to help me set it up. When it showed up and I began using it, it didn't work. However, the seller came out as promised and at least tried to help me get it working properly, with some success.

Unfortunately, I almost assume everything I buy used will need money put into it.


----------



## CockrellHillFarms (Aug 30, 2011)

I always test run what I'm buying before I buy it. The first sq. baler I bought was a JD 346 wire tie (Still have it as a back up). I even ran hay threw it before I bought it. We took apart some big square bales and ran it threw. It works well well doing that, but its not quite like running it threw a field. But at least that way you have a good idea of what ur working with. I think my comment about putting it on craigslist and selling it has been taken out of context, maybe I should have explained it better. If you tell someone it has been rebuilt but it doesnt work 100% then thats being honest. But I still think you can get more money out of it that way, instead of selling it to the dealer. If it came down to that.


----------



## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

When equipment sits, it rusts. Buy the proper manuals and do the necessary cleaning, lubing and adjusting. It will be knowledge that you will need in the future if you stick with making hay. It's just part of the adventure. jmho Mike


----------



## Hand&Hand Farms (Feb 5, 2011)

Get you an inline by Hesston, grab another gear and dont look back til done.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

The 346 is one of the best balers JD ever made. REPAIR IT!!!!! As long as the actual baler is straight there is nothing that cannot be fixed. Top condition 346 around here with a thrower are still bringing 3500-5500, so fix it. The salesman cannot wait to get his hands on that baler. Heck, I would love to get a hold of a 346 for just a few thousand, that would be a real steel.

Irregular length bales as you describe. The most common problem is that the spring that puts tension on the measuring wheel is weak. Many times they are replaced with a none JD spring. The right spring is a very very strong little spring. Take off the cover to expose the needle lift gear assemble. There is a spring under this gear assemble that puts the pull on the measuring assemble. If this spring is bad you will NEVER get consistant bale size. Here is a like to the actual parts page, the spring is E78685. Here is a link to the actual parts page: 
http://jdpc.deere.com/jdpc/servlet/...ageServlet?printParams=Illustration,+Keylines

This would be the first place I am going to send you from what you have described. Couple other things to check, What shape are the hay resistors in? (You will find them in the parts book with the "plungerhead guides") These are the plates with the half moons pressed out of them on the inside of the bale case. If they are bad you will not tie properly. There should be no real amount of up and down play in the bill hooks. This is easily fixed by removing the gear on the top of the bill hook and shimming it tight, them put the gear back on. After doing that check that the wipers are tight across the bill hook. It should take about ten pounds of pull to get them across the bill hook. Make sure the knives that cut the twine are seriously SHARP. And lastly check the adjustment of the needles to the twine disc in the knotter. The side of the needle should just rub the knotter frame slightly, and clear the twine disc by no more than 1/16 of an inch, 1/32 is better.

If this does not take care of it, get back to me and tell me what it is doing after you do all this.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Actually the service manager was the one who came to me with the repair price, the SALES guy wasn't involved with that part of it. He actually inferred HE would take it somewhere else to get it fixed!


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

I replaced the quadrant (the geared curved piece) and the geared roller already, which is why I couldn't understand the length problem. It was both strings. They tied off perfectly after all that hay came out!


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

I've got the CD and print manuals and have done plenty of adjusting and repairing, it's just that the damn thing jammed up and I didn't know how to un-jam it, dammit.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Thanks Barry for all those suggestions.
I already put new JD springs on it and knives too. That spring is a booger to get on. It is tight as you say. I changed almost everything I could without actually disassembling the knotter (I don't think I could do that). Maybe I should try. There is a guy that has a knotter repair CD from "bestbalerparts.com". Do you know about them?
I think the resistors are OK. I cleaned the residue out of them and also replaced the hay dog springs as well. That airbaler keeps plenty of tension in the chamber too.
Like you said that baler can suck down the hay, I agree. When I get it back and test it and it still doesn't work right I'm gonna find a different mechanic.
I had another question: If the baler doesn't feed enough hay to the far left of the chamber that would mess up the left knotter tying wouldn't it, because there would be less tension on the twine?


----------



## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

I agree with Barry, fix it. I'm assuming that you are taking your baler to the JD dealer down by you. I haven't been very impressed with them when I've dealt with them. It's a bit of a drive, but you might talk to the guys in Navasota. They know JD balers.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

A little side line here, this is the best vid I have ever seen showing how knotters work. It is for NH knotters, but they all work the same so you can see it.






Being too loose generally does not cause problems with knotters like being too tight or stuffing too much hay in will.

Were you getting that really long bale when you were just filling the baler for the first time. If so that is normal.

You never should have had to spend the money for the air baler stuff. Between the springs on the squeezer bars, hay resistors, additional straw block, and adjustable side doors, you already had everything you ever needed to bale up to 80 pound dry bales.

Getting the bales to come out properly and evenly is much more of an art than a science. The baler will not make up for improperly fed hay. There are three adjustment holes on the feeder fingers, but they do not make up for improperly fed hay. You need to be picking the hay up on the outside edge as much as possible, that is the right side of the baler. The hay needs to stand up behind the auger as it moves sideways across the baler. If the hay starts coming over the top of the auger,you are feeding tooooooo fast. Get the feed rate about right and that is the combination of the size of the windrow and your ground speed and your bales will come out even. Like I said this is an art not a science.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Barry Bowen said:


> A little side line here, this is the best vid I have ever seen showing how knotters work. It is for NH knotters, but they all work the same so you can see it.
> 
> Small Square Baler Knotter - YouTube
> 
> ...


Great video, I saw it couple of nights ago. I understand about the airbaler but for ME it gives me 2 things. 1) I can set the pressure to exactly what it needs without guesswork. 2) It compensates somewhat for crappy windrows and technique especially last year with our drought, we had to make do. It helped. I am still new at this. Last year was my 2nd season and we had the drought. 
That really long bale came near the end after I put up about 100 pretty decent bales. Occasionally there were longer ones but not much. I think part of that problem was that some of the grass is Bermuda the other blue stem which are 2 different densities. All I did was to drop that length adjuster down about 1/4" and in a few minutes it happened.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

Since that spring is good, the next thing to look at there is the contact between the pulley on the star guage shaft, and how it contacts the actual trip arm. The curved piece of strip steel that runs up and down through that pulley( the actual trip arm) should not be going to the bottom of the pulley. It is designed to be riding on the edges of the pulley with the spring tension pulling it in. When it ties, the gear on the outside with the trip dog in it, pushes the trip arm back and drops it down on the stop on the pulley on the star wheel shaft. If it is riding down in the bottom because the pulley is worn there is not sufficient friction to work properly, so replace the pulley, and inspect the steel strip that drops down through it. If they are worn replace what needs it. What ever it is that is causing the long bale you had is in this area, not in the actual knotters if they are always tying properly.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Barry Bowen said:


> Since that spring is good, the next thing to look at there is the contact between the pulley on the star guage shaft, and how it contacts the actual trip arm. The curved piece of strip steel that runs up and down through that pulley( the actual trip arm) should not be going to the bottom of the pulley. It is designed to be riding on the edges of the pulley with the spring tension pulling it in. When it ties, the gear on the outside with the trip dog in it, pushes the trip arm back and drops it down on the stop on the pulley on the star wheel shaft. If it is riding down in the bottom because the pulley is worn there is not sufficient friction to work properly, so replace the pulley, and inspect the steel strip that drops down through it. If they are worn replace what needs it. What ever it is that is causing the long bale you had is in this area, not in the actual knotters if they are always tying properly.


The frustrating this is I did replace that little roller AND the the curved measuring arm. I tried to replace everything that I could find. I'm wondering if the adjustment slipped by the mounting brackets for the star wheel. I've found the page in the manual "adjust bale measuring control". When I get it back I'm going over all that again. It's got to be there like you say.


----------



## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

The thing about knotters, when you finally do figure it out, it will be something so simple that you'll be slapping yourself on the forehead for not thinking of it sooner....


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

AMEN RockmartGA AMEN


----------



## Bret4207 (Mar 29, 2011)

Double amen to Rockmart! Whatever it is, it'll be simple and you'll find it AFTER you replace a mess of other parts!

I'm in the crowd saying keep it and fix it. Knotters are not that complex, really. Same for timing. I'm not a JD guy, but that one long bale and then the twine wrapping on the knotters sounds very "New Hollandy". Been there, done that, got the tee shirt. A great deal of my problems over the past 5-6 years came from what I now know to be lousy twine. I made the switch to plastic last year and I'm not going back to our modern low quality, inconsistent twine. The New Holland twine of the early 90's that I started with is looong gone! Don't know if you were using plastic or sisal, but my knotter problems absolutely disappeared the second I switched to plastic, and that's on an ancient NH 68 from the mid 1950's! I did about 1K with plastic last summer and NEVER had a single knotter/tying issue. That's proof enough for me.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

That's good to know. My baler repairman suggested I switch to plastic, too.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

I will also jump on the plastic twine band wagon. Consistency is the main issue. Second issue is that if you are tying tight like in straw, the draw of the twine being pulled up between the two bales can be so much as to cause knotting problems. The plastic is much slipperier between the bales.

Davang:
Next thing to look at if those are all good. There are four carriage bolts that hold the measuring wheel in place. It is adjustable forward and back. With the side cover off, you will see the difference this adjustment makes in terms of where the trip arm contacts the trip dog on the intermittent drive set up. Usually when this goes wrong it keeps tying constantly, but I would at least suggest taking a look at it and see what the story is there.

How tight or loose were you tying when you had the problem? I do not think changing to plastic would have any effect on that long bale you had, but it will make life much easier. All the R&D has gone into plastic over the last 20-30 years, and it shows in the product.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

I'm pretty sure a big part of the problem is there like you say. I studied the repair manual and now that I understand it thanks to you guys I don't think the trip arm was high enough even with the trip dog. In fact I'll bet it was too low and may have slippped down due to vibration. Also I bet the measuring arm was not making good contact with the geared roller. I'm using plastic too.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

That all sounds very reasonable and you have a path to pursue in terms of a fix.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Barry Bowen said:


> That all sounds very reasonable and you have a path to pursue in terms of a fix.


Well I got it back. Technician said he got it to tie perfectly on a dry run (hand crank I'm sure) because now the crank stop doesn't get out of the way and stops the plunger before it gets back to home position! I move it out of the way and get back to home and the twine holder holds the first pass of twine when I threaded it, but on the second go round no tie and the twine falls out of the holder!
Just to make things more frustrating, the technician threaded the baler reversed left to right and the right needle was easily 3/8 " behind the left needle.
Time for a phone call.

They must have adjusted the bale measuring arm etc because all of that is fine. I checked it "by-the-book.


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

It sounds like he was playing with the needle adjustment. It sounds to me like it is time for you to take the manual, the baler, and a few beverages (adult is you prefer) and go through the complete timing and adjustment process. Reading the book in the house will make absolutely NO sense. Read it with the baler in front of you and try to contort your self to the angle that the pictures were taken, and it will make perfectly good sense.

I have not found a baler mechanic at the dealers any more worth the powder to blow them away. Learn it your self and it will pay off in spades later. Any questions just ask or PM me.


----------



## Bret4207 (Mar 29, 2011)

I agree that doing it yourself is starting to sound like the best answer. But I would certainly be calling the dealership and express a desire for a return of any funds since the "technician" screwed it up even worse than it was.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Barry,

Let me know when you're ready to come up for a visit. I assume I would need to get some hay, baler manual and of course my checkbook.....

I think you're about 3 hrs drive. 
Probably wouldn't be a good idea to wait for first cutting.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Good news. I got it to tie on a hand crank. Turns out the baler mechanic wasn't all that wrong/bad. Except for the mis-threading his adjustments worked out. I re-tweaked the right needle and it's fine. I'm gonna replace the 2 bushings that carry the needle frame on the sides of the bale chamber just to make sure it's as smooth as it can get. They won't go all the way back to home without an extra hand pull on the hand crank, slow motion.

I found some wiggle in the feeder fork bushings so I'm gonna change those out too. The main feeder bearings are fine.

Thanks guys for all your suggestions.

Jeff


----------



## Barry Bowen (Nov 16, 2009)

There is an adjustment on the needle lift shaft. You should not have to give it a little push when doing by hand. Adjust that linkage a little longer so that they work properly on the plunger stop. Or, there is an adjustment in the plunger stop linkage also. Either on will get the job done. If you do the one on the lift arm, you will have to check the timing on the needles to the plunger and possible readjust.

Put a grease fitting in for the new lift arm bushings.


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

The problem was the needle drive gear. It was behind by about 4 teeth. The notch is supposed to be snug against that roller on the dog. The needles NOW go all the way back. I saw it on the DVD by the balerman. I also called him. When I told him what the tech had said about having to manually pull the needles back he laughed his ass off!


----------



## davang (Apr 7, 2010)

Okay the story continues. While I was hand cranking I noticed the plunger was binding a bit. Then about a week after I couldn't get it past the bind. So I took it out today and now I have more problems. There was rust under the right rail causing it to hump up in two places so I removed the screws, got under it and knocked out the rust so I could pull it out. Now the un begins. The mount which carries the pitman bearing has a cracked weld, AND one of the rollers is jammed against the housing and another is just plain frozen... The baler man man has the parts I find out tomorrow how much $$$. JD wants $1800 plus just for the plunger frame, no goodies. This might be the end of the line. I'm going to the New Holland dealer ASAP to check out some GOOD used balers just in case. On a positive note I've been able to do all the work myself including pulling the plunger out with a ratchet strap.


----------

