# Hay values



## tnwalkingred (Jun 8, 2010)

Ok guys,

I wanted to get everyones opinion on when they get hay tested which is the single most important value to look at? Is it protein %, RFV, or TDN, or something else???? Let's hear your thoughts.

--Kyle


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## ANewman (Sep 20, 2012)

Seems like most horse folks in my area are only concerned with crude protein. I've only had a couple ask about rfv or tdn. If u are dealing with a dairyman they will probably be more interested in a complete analysis.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Rfv or RFQ for me....my customers are too stupid for something as complex as that, they just want it cheaper.......the cheaper is the better for my group of idiots.....


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

somedevildawg said:


> ...the cheaper is the better for my group of idiots.....


This is hilarious but so true. I sell to horse people who always look for low prices versus quality. Got the hay tested to share with customers who could care less...because they don't have a clue about the nutritional quality or bale weight vs. cost.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Customer education is an important part of any sales program.

Some ways to point out hay quality and value is to:

Ask them how much of a bale ends up being trampled into the ground or wasted. If their livestock is wasting 15-20% of the hay they feed, they are loosing money. That $5 bale that wasted 20% really cost them $6. If their livestock isn't cleaning it up, that's money lost.

Ask them how much they have to feed to have their livestock maintain/gain weight. Are they feeding 20#/day of 10% CP or 30#/day of 5% CP (Numbers are for easy demonstration of the principle, not meant as a recommendation.) 20# at $5/bale is the same cost as 30# at $3/bale (50# bales and I think I did my math correctly.)

Offer them different qualities, different sizes. I usually tell my customers I have this CP, bale size and type of hay at this price, this at that, etc. I price my hay off of auctions for the same quality and tonnage.

Show them the insides. Don't be afraid to bust a bale open or reach in and grab a handful. Let them pick the bale.

Find out what's important to them. Smart horse people know that too high a CP is not good for their horses. Teach them that horse really do best on 7-10% CP mixed hay. Dairy cattle want 18%+ alfalfa.

Let them choose. Then its their mistake, or good fortune.

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

If you can educate your customers on the merits of looking at food value over the actual looks of the hay then you won't have to worry so much about getting that pretty green look. I have two fields of Alfalfa. One field got two rains on it. The other no rain. Both baled to retain leaves. The RFV of the rained on hay was just 1 point less the the pretty hay, but wasn't nearly as green. That kind of surprised me. I expected the rained on hay to be significantly less in rfv.

People like to see horses eat though. So if they get hay without much food value they will need to eat more of it. So really if hay buyers were smart they would look at food value. I usually don't mind breaking small bales of hay open for people to see, but I will not break a 3x3x8 bale open. That's just to big of a bale to waste.


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## tnwalkingred (Jun 8, 2010)

I have horses and cattle both. I agree with you guys that a "pretty" will always sell the best regardless of the actual nutriential value. But if it was your own livestock you were feeding (not talking about hay to sell) and you wanted to get the highest growth possible out of that livestock which analysis would you place the most value on????

--Kyle


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

DP and TDN is the most importent part. Just like a soil test might show a high K value ... I want a test that shows what is available. Where I use to live we had limestone base which showed high and you would not need K. Wrong because it was tied up in rock. 18% CP is good but if the DP is only 2% its not much value to the animal. I have a customer whose hay test for cattle with no supplements needed. That's my thoughts.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

And this is why I joined this forum. Great discussion!


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Teslan said:


> If you can educate your customers on the merits of looking at food value over the actual looks of the hay then you won't have to worry so much about getting that pretty green look. I have two fields of Alfalfa. One field got two rains on it. The other no rain. Both baled to retain leaves. The RFV of the rained on hay was just 1 point less the the pretty hay, but wasn't nearly as green. That kind of surprised me. I expected the rained on hay to be significantly less in rfv.
> 
> People like to see horses eat though. So if they get hay without much food value they will need to eat more of it. So really if hay buyers were smart they would look at food value. I usually don't mind breaking small bales of hay open for people to see, but I will not break a 3x3x8 bale open. That's just to big of a bale to waste.


people like to see there cattle eat too. i have sold hay to two different guys last winter. Told them it was good hay and that the cattle wont eat as much. Told them my cattle were only eating 25 pounds per day free choice from the feeder. They were getting a bit too fat ofd it infact. First guy wanted to feed at least 30 pounds per day per head. Phoned me up and told me to stop bringing him hay cause they were not liking it. Wasting too much he said. Could not get him to understand he was just feeding too much. Other guy was similar. Cows not eating everything he put out but he bought some second cut from another guy and was so happy with it. The cows dont eat as much of it cause its really good feed so he just feed less.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

An excellent collection of responses.

We actually have an infinite collection of customer types. I cater to the casual but interested hay buyer. The one who is interested in quality but is not a fanatic. Probably 20% are really interested in crude protein a majority are pleased to know the CP a very few are interested in the feed value, (the dairy goat owning) and a sample are only interested in price.

Probably three years ago Steve Orloff a California Extension type suggested hay growers use the mineral analysis from a hay test to monitor fertility. A GREAT idea, one that works for me. So I modified my requested hay analysis to reflect this. What I now pay for is a plant analysis and I multiply the percent of Nitrogen by 6.25 and have the Crude Protein. The CP I use for pricing and *the years mineral results to adjust my fertilizer usage. *


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I missed this series of discussion somehow, but that was a great question posed by Tnwalkingred....and some great responses! Way to go fellas.

Regards, Mike


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## LeadFarmer (May 10, 2011)

Hey all.

Our first three cuttings of the year go to the dairy, and they are looking at Crude Protein, ADF, and NDF. The RFV is based off of those numbers anyways, so that is what they are looking at. If the protein is too high the hay will pass right through the cows, giving them diarrhea. I sold them some 26% CP hay this year that had to be "cut" with other, less quality hay to make it easier for the cows to digest. ADF and NDF also relate directly to digestability. Don't quote me here, but I believe that the NDF is the non-digestable fiber content of your hay stems, and I honestly can't remember what the ADF is.

Other guys in the past have just been focused on RFV, which as I said before, is calculated from the factors I listed above. The RFV is definitely the quickest/simplest way to represent your hay, but anyone that knows their stuff is going to want to see a more complete analysis, IMO.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Got to love the folks that come to look at your good hay. Show them the hay and the feed test and then they say but so and so has hay for sale at this price. Some people just dont understand the feed test and other just want the cheapest hay they can find. At least the ones that dont understand you can teach them a little bit about good hay.


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## LeadFarmer (May 10, 2011)

I thought I would add:

I use AgSource Laboratories, they are an NFTA Certified Laboratory located in Bonduel, WI. Their scores seem to land right in the middle of the spectrum, which makes them a lab that my dairyman and I can both agree on. Certain labs scores will skew a certain way, try a few until you find one that you like, but take care to stay away from labs that make your scores look stacked. If someone buys your hay after you show them a super high test score, and they re-test with a different lab, chances are that the scores will NOT be the same, and they could end up quite pissed off at you.

I get AgSource to run a Wet Chemistry package on my hay, package #12 (B1/Major Mineral , ADF-CP w/ NDF). The dairyman also asked for a Sodium test, so I have them run that too. I included a scan of the only test I could find lying around for reference.


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