# New Iron, not built to last?



## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

So I have been working for a large farm operation one of their 5 balers doing straw. Its all SS and he has 3 newer JD balers, a brand new NH, and a hesston inline. His main use tractors include a Case 940, IH 1026, 2 new MF 5610s, and another case for the inline. One of his new Massey tractors just had the pto go out after only 600 hours of baling work, and I know he babies his equipment. The kicker is his warranty is most likely up on it. They just dont make em like they used to I suppose... if it were my money Id have just bought 4 older tractors for the price he paid for one new


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I almost went the route of one newer tractor for haymaking.

Ended up buying two White 2-110's instead with money left over. Most I've had to do on the 110's is fix the AC on one then had to pull both lift pumps apart and reseat the intake poppet. Stuck with what i knew as the White 2-110's are just updated 2-105's and those are just newer Oliver 1955's more or less. Different engine but the rest is pretty much interchangeable. We have an Oliver 1855 with 7000 hours on the third tachometer, so i have a wee bit of experience with those.

Most reliable tractor on the farm would be either a Oliver Super 88 or a 1600. Both are diesels, both have all mechanical gauges, so if necessary a guy could bump start one if required and forget about the electrical crap.


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

I bought a brand new hay rake this year but my newest tractor is from 1969 and my oldest is from 1948. Would I like something newer you bet but I don’t want to risk losing the farm over it.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

Do yall drive vehicals from the mid 20rh century?


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

Late 20th...lol


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

I'll probably never own a newer tractor, partly because I will never be able to justify the cost. But my Ford is a 1984, and they made this model up to 1990 (or early 90's) and I think it's about the perfect vintage. Still built really well, you used to see a lot of 4610's mowing ditches along the highways (I've still seen some yet in service), modern enough to have good parts availability and not be an ancient tractor, but still lacking all the electronics. It also doesn't 'look' like a super old tractor either. Anything I can do to make me look more credible than the glorified hobbyist that I am.

That being said, for being a late 60's tractor, a 4020 just has a timeless and classy look to it, I'll always love those.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

StxPecans said:


> Do yall drive vehicals from the mid 20rh century?


Long as they don't have DEF on em and less electronics than the space shuttle you betcha.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> I'll probably never own a newer tractor, partly because I will never be able to justify the cost. But my Ford is a 1984, and they made this model up to 1990 (or early 90's) and I think it's about the perfect vintage. Still built really well, you used to see a lot of 4610's mowing ditches along the highways (I've still seen some yet in service), modern enough to have good parts availability and not be an ancient tractor, but still lacking all the electronics. It also doesn't 'look' like a super old tractor either. Anything I can do to make me look more credible than the glorified hobbyist that I am.
> 
> That being said, for being a late 60's tractor, a 4020 just has a timeless and classy look to it, I'll always love those.


My cut off for tractors is DEF/DPF. Yes the electronics are there, but not the dreaded >tier 3 garbage that will fail years ahead of the tractor. 
As far as trucks go, I have found that a deleted DPF truck, straight piped with a mild tune can be a very nice truck. I just drove a deleted 6.4L F-350 over the weekend and couldn't believe how well it ran.


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## StxPecans (Mar 3, 2018)

You think the 5 series deeres will have def/dpf delete kits? If they did that would be nice. Mine never regens, maybe 5 times i have seen it regen and i am at 1000hrs or so. First time was at 250hrs. Guess normal load is enough for a passive regen. But it will drink def fluid. 1 tank def to 3 tanks fuel. Damn deere made the def tank just small enough thatit wont take a full jug of def. But really 3-4$ per tank of diesel for def isnt that big of deal. 
My pickup and my dads are both def dodge trucks and we have not had a single issue and we are both over 100k miles. Knock on wood. 
I put enough hours on a tractor that buying used isnt really the best idea especially when you throw 0% financing in the mix.
We had 2 Kubotas a 8540 and a 9540 cab 4x4 fel. Put 4000hrs on them and little stuff started to break here and there. Sold them both and got what we paid for them. I doubt a newer def tractor will be the same but like my dad says, those first 5000 hours are the cheap ones.


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

Hayjosh said:


> I'll probably never own a newer tractor, partly because I will never be able to justify the cost. But my Ford is a 1984, and they made this model up to 1990 (or early 90's) and I think it's about the perfect vintage. Still built really well, you used to see a lot of 4610's mowing ditches along the highways (I've still seen some yet in service), modern enough to have good parts availability and not be an ancient tractor, but still lacking all the electronics. It also doesn't 'look' like a super old tractor either. Anything I can do to make me look more credible than the glorified hobbyist that I am.
> 
> That being said, for being a late 60's tractor, a 4020 just has a timeless and classy look to it, I'll always love those.


Agreed. I will probably never run enough acres to really "need" a new tractor, or even a newish tractor. Part of the enjoyment for me is the fact that im using a machine that was built long before I came about, and seing how good a job it still does. Im sure my attitude would be different if farming was my full time job and every repair was food off the table, but with my circumstance I sure do love the oldies and wouldnt want anything else


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

MIHay said:


> Agreed. I will probably never run enough acres to really "need" a new tractor, or even a newish tractor. Part of the enjoyment for me is the fact that im using a machine that was built long before I came about, and seing how good a job it still does. Im sure my attitude would be different if farming was my full time job and every repair was food off the table, but with my circumstance I sure do love the oldies and wouldnt want anything else


Repair vs depreciation, have to do your homework before saying one is better than the other. Here's a real ugly example. My brother has two skidsteers to serve the dairy, a 1985 Case 1835B with 6000 hrs and a year old Cat 226D with less than five hundred hours on. This is the second Cat 226D he's had. The Cats have zero down time but it cost $20 an hour just to trade to a new one. The Case has had down time, but it hardly costs $5 an hour for depreciation/repairs/fuel to run the thing. It not a totally fair comparison as the Cat is more productive in some situations, but the cost to own it does make a person wonder.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

I think that I fall into the category of being an extreme hobby farmer. I put up and maintain about 100 acres of hay and work a full time job. For years, all I could afford to have were older open station tractors and used implements. Just in the last few years I've been able to afford to slowly upgrade much of my major equipment to new. I agree that somethings are not built like they used to be, but I have to admit that when it comes to good farm machinery, they build them at least as good as they used to. I've been running a Kubota M9960 for about 4 years now, and am completely impressed with the quality and the functionality of it. I can understand the cost effectiveness and fun of operating old open station tractors, but for me I finally hit a point to where it was wearing me out and hindering me from getting as much done as I could be. You just can't beat the comfort and functionality of modern tractors.

I still have a Massey 1100 open station, but if all goes well, I'll being selling it and getting another new Kubota before next haying season.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

The other thing to remember is that what is "new" today, will be "old" in 20-30 years. Only then will we really know. My guess is things are only going to get more complex, especially from the standpoint of repairing it yourself.

With absolutely nothing but respect for guys running the older iron, like Idaho Hay, I have come to appreciate working in a safe, comfortable, convenient environment. I aint gettin no younger and I've run my share of "oldies but goodies" in my younger years. I like coming home in one piece and feeling like I have enough energy to mow my freakin lawn. LOL


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

Tractors aside, I believe new is as good or better (unless it is a new product) than old due to updates and experience from previous failures. Take the 459 round baler. There is a lengthy thread about all the issues I have had with it since new. I had no doubt it was as good or better than the 458 it replaced but the issues lies with assembly, dealer setup, dealer support, and tech knowledge. Last year a friend and I went through it top to bottom and has been practically flawless since. Only took 3 seasons of use and a lot of wasted/loss $$$.


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## MIHay (Jun 4, 2018)

JD3430 said:


> The other thing to remember is that what is "new" today, will be "old" in 20-30 years. Only then will we really know. My guess is things are only going to get more complex, especially from the standpoint of repairing it yourself.
> With absolutely nothing but respect for guys running the older iron, like Idaho Hay, I have come to appreciate working in a safe, comfortable, convenient environment. I aint gettin no younger and I've run my share of "oldies but goodies" in my younger years. I like coming home in one piece and feeling like I have enough energy to mow my freakin lawn. LOL


I hear you on that one. One day my boss let me operate one of his new masseys, no wonder the older guys are quick to claim them. After going from older open stations to a climate controlled cab with a soft seat, I felt like I wasnt even doing work Lol the 100,000 price tag seemed to me a little steep to make payments on, but I am just a hobby guy after all. Personally I kinda like the open stations. I felt as though I could better feel the baler behind be and be aware of any issues. Ive only got a few years of it though, I could see myself singin a different tune later on for sure. That sun gets awfully hot and the fields awfully long on an open station


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

The other day Dad and I were mowing side by side... sorta. He was mowing his lawn on his 1320 and I was clipping a pasture right beside him in an MX110. When I finished, he was sitting on the deck. I jokingly asked him, "Why are you sweating? You were on a tractor."

Got a buddy that gave me crap for installing a canopy on a tractor when I told him I wish I would've put one on sooner. He said he prefers the open sky. I told him after mowing 100 acres you'll sing another tune. He mows 10 acres tops over 3 days or so.

As far as hearing the implement as it works behind you, you learn the noises even with the radio on. If something is wrong it goes something like this 'GRRRRBOOOMpow'.

I get plenty of open station tractor time. As long as the AC works I will climb in a cab.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

MIHay said:


> I hear you on that one. One day my boss let me operate one of his new masseys, no wonder the older guys are quick to claim them. After going from older open stations to a climate controlled cab with a soft seat, I felt like I wasnt even doing work Lol the 100,000 price tag seemed to me a little steep to make payments on, but I am just a hobby guy after all. Personally I kinda like the open stations. I felt as though I could better feel the baler behind be and be aware of any issues. Ive only got a few years of it though, I could see myself singin a different tune later on for sure. That sun gets awfully hot and the fields awfully long on an open station


In some ways you can hear better in a cab tractor! When I'm baling sometimes, I will turn up the AC and open the back window. I can hear the baler perfectly but the front of the cab buffers the noise of the engine. I'm not overly concerned about an engine blowing up, but you know how balers are!!!! Anytime something can let go!!! I can still hear engine, but it's more of a background noise.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

There are usually two distinct trains of thought on equipment. One group likes to buy newer equipment and sell/trade before it begins to have issues. The second group likes to buy equipment and drive it until the wheels fall off.

If you are from the second group, I would submit that you are not going to be happy when you have to start replacing electronics, IVT transmissions, and some of the other things that require specialized tools (i.e. computers) to fix. If you have to hire this work done, it quickly becomes cost prohibitive. When they replaced metal parts with plastic and it takes a computer to run things, I just think it has a limited life expectancy.

I guess we'll find out in 50 years when we go to an antique tractor show......


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

IH 1586 said:


> Tractors aside, I believe new is as good or better (unless it is a new product) than old due to updates and experience from previous failures. Take the 459 round baler. There is a lengthy thread about all the issues I have had with it since new. I had no doubt it was as good or better than the 458 it replaced but the issues lies with assembly, dealer setup, dealer support, and tech knowledge. Last year a friend and I went through it top to bottom and has been practically flawless since. Only took 3 seasons of use and a lot of wasted/loss $$$.


It doesn't matter how well something is engineered if someone puts it together with a "care-less" attitude. I hate you had to go through what you did with your baler. I was surprised when you mentioned the trouble that you had, as the 8 & 9 series have good reputations.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayjosh said:


> That being said, for being a late 60's tractor, a 4020 just has a timeless and classy look to it, I'll always love those.


Agree, if you had a nice restored one it would want to make you sit up straight in the seat. 

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Vol said:


> It doesn't matter how well something is engineered if someone puts it together with a "care-less" attitude. I hate you had to go through what you did with your baler. I was surprised when you mentioned the trouble that you had, as the 8 & 9 series have good reputations.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Just talking with a customer that has issue with pto speed changing on its own.Mechanic said 32 hrs to remove cab and split the tractor to replace a O ring.Mechanic said it he had 2 more inches to work with it would be a simple fix.Looking at $4000?? In labor to replace a part that costs a few dollars.so mechanic was blaming engineers.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> so mechanic was blaming engineers.


That happens too.....like some of these Japanese cars that you have to pull the engine for what should be a simple fix.

Regards, Mike


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

Vol said:


> That happens too.....like some of these Japanese cars that you have to pull the engine for what should be a simple fix.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Like this? LOL


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Knew a guy who had a Buick Skyhawk (same as Chevy Monza and Olds Starfire of the '75-'80 model years) with a 3.8 liter V-6.

In order to change the spark plugs on the right bank of the engine, you had to disconnect the motor mounts, attach a chain hoist, and lift the engine a few inches in order to be able to access the plugs.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Don't get me started on all the stupid $$!t I see in equipment design. Nissan Armada with a beautiful little drip spout below the oil filter--that drips the oil on the tie rod. Cat skid steer with the battery and the oil filter in about the worst places they could find for them, and for good measure the DPF/muffler is under a hydraulic valve body--can't see a problem there . . . Another one is a Polaris Ranger that I service, it is plain difficult just to find the oil dipstick/fill tube, much less put oil in it. Need a custom funnel for that one.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I like to run nice equipment, in that i mean well maintained, reliable and comfortable. I'm mechanically inclined for the most part except when it comes to specialized electrical/electronics so i factor that in when i buy iron. I see such an abundance of low hr, or low acre equipment out there that buying new is really a luxury. Unless a new or nearly new piece of equipment is going to save me time or money i don't need it, or want it. Everyone has to look at their own requirements and make their own decisions but here are a few of my benchmarks i use.

Can i repair most everything on it? Was it a problem free model? Will it really help me grow more hay/ more bushels of grain? Will it help keep the hrs down on my MWFD tractors? ( Just bought a beautiful 40 yr old Massey 4wd to pull a disk, $3000) Can i get the job done faster?

New iron breaks down too so for me piece of mind comes from a extra tractor, extra baler etc. I would never buy new major pieces of equipment by talking myself into the " no downtime" way of thought.

I spread my hrs out over several tractors and keep them in good shape so really if i farm for 20 more years none of them would need replacing. I don't trust the log term reliability of any of the newer tractors, so i just won't buy em.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Plain and simple, everything breaks. The newer it gets though the more expensive it gets.

For example, one spring was planting beans, made one round and the three point quit on the MF8160. Could use the fender buttons though to raise and lower, finished the outside rounds then those started acting up as well. Got the Hiniker unhooked and took the tractor home. Turns out the three point hitch position sensor took a dump. Of course nobody stocks one, of course then it rained for ten days.

Had maybe two three point hitch's quit working on our older Oliver/Whites, that takes a 25 cent split pin, takes longer to get one and a small punch than it does to fix.

Our MF9690 is a lot nicer to run than the MF8560 it replaced. No def on the 9690 however is still the electronic 8.3. Has a dial in the cab instead of a throttle. Fought this machine the first three years we owned it, would just die sometimes, was really fun if it did it when cutting thru a tough spot of beans or some grass. Kept getting a low fuel rail pressure warning. Changed the charge pump, took the strainer out at the tank and cleaned it, cleaned the tank out, blew all the lines out, etc etc. Not even sure how we figured it out, but ours had a newer engine than it should of had, wasn't changed just came that way. Had a serial number break as well, get the newer manual and it wasn't a low fuel pressure condition but a bad camshaft position sensor as the trouble codes changed at the break.

Never had an issue like that with either the MF8560 or 8780 combines as they had the ole reliable completely mechanical injection systems on em.

The 9690 is a lot nicer to run than either the 8560 or 8780 but also has a lot more electronics and harnesses to go bad as well, so its a toss up on which is the better machine out of the three. The 9690 with a 30' head would run circles around the 8560 with a 20' head, but that little 8560 just ran and ran and ran with very few issues.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Gearclash said:


> Don't get me started on all the stupid $$!t I see in equipment design. Nissan Armada with a beautiful little drip spout below the oil filter--that drips the oil on the tie rod. Cat skid steer with the battery and the oil filter in about the worst places they could find for them, and for good measure the DPF/muffler is under a hydraulic valve body--can't see a problem there . . . Another one is a Polaris Ranger that I service, it is plain difficult just to find the oil dipstick/fill tube, much less put oil in it. Need a custom funnel for that one.


One thing I really hate is when a tractor has the fill level plug for hydraulic fluid...that's something you should be checking pretty regularly. So my 4610--which I know at least came with dipsticks at one time because it's in the manual--has a fill level plug for the hydraulic fluid. So guess how much it actually gets checked vs. how much it really should? The hydraulic fluid fill is on the top of the rear left axle beneath the hydraulic remotes so it's a mess to try to add fluid, and the fill level plug is on the right side of the tractor, making it essentially impossible to see when you're adding fluid. Talk about STOOPID.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Having spent a lifetime as a software/systems engineer, I can say one thing for sure: Engineers nowadays don't have enough education to design a product as simple as a toothpick.

When I undertook a project, I would spent a good chunk of time upfront learning to do the jobs of the people who would be using the system. That meant working on the factory floor, working an order desk, handling tuxedos, etc. Usually spent two to three weeks doing their job.

The last phase of a project was to use the new system in production like the employees would be using it. This meant being on the factory floor, the office desk or the commodities exchange floor looking over people's shoulders to see what worked and what didn't work for them then refining those parts that where crappy.

Engineers today are given an assignment--"Here--design this thingamabob"--and many times they don't even know how to spell "thingamabob" much less how it is going to be used. But they have to get it done under pressure, under budget for some Harvard MBA who is only looking for his next promotion/career change.

Customer satisfaction is perhaps the one main item missing from both engineering and business schools.

Rant over, coffee cup is empty.

Ralph


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## IH 1586 (Oct 16, 2014)

rjmoses said:


> Having spent a lifetime as a software/systems engineer, I can say one thing for sure: Engineers nowadays don't have enough education to design a product as simple as a toothpick.
> 
> When I undertook a project, I would spent a good chunk of time upfront learning to do the jobs of the people who would be using the system. That meant working on the factory floor, working an order desk, handling tuxedos, etc. Usually spent two to three weeks doing their job.
> 
> ...


Can't agree more. The people on the floor are stupid. The guy sitting at a desk designing a "better" way is always smarter and they hate when you call them out. "Do this for a week and see if it's better". Nope to busy.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

rjmoses said:


> Having spent a lifetime as a software/systems engineer, I can say one thing for sure: Engineers nowadays don't have enough education to design a product as simple as a toothpick.
> 
> When I undertook a project, I would spent a good chunk of time upfront learning to do the jobs of the people who would be using the system. That meant working on the factory floor, working an order desk, handling tuxedos, etc. Usually spent two to three weeks doing their job.
> 
> ...


I have always said that Architects, and Engineers need to spend at least five years out in the field before they can even put lead to paper. I think part of the the problem is that each engineer that is working on each project only does a small part of it, and they don't care that, oh maybe someone may have to get at that doohickey that they just covered up with their whatchamacallit, and now you have to un-assemble the whole thingamabob just to fix the gizmo.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I would rather have a 30' long tractor with everything accessible than a 15' long tractor that will fit on a 16' dovetail.

....and what makes you think engineers don't know that? Engineers design things to make the company more money. If it were simple, their franchises won't make them more cash.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Long as they don't have DEF on em and less electronics than the space shuttle you betcha.


Actually that was one of the reasons that the shuttles were retired... The space shuttle had cutting edge electronics-- in 1974!!! They of course had undergone several BREATHTAKINGLY expensive upgrades to make them "play nice" with newer computers and avionics systems, but the heart of the system was vintage-- designed in 1974. Some of the shuttle's computer avionics were SO old that there were a number of companies that were building the replacement parts as "one-offs" because the original companies had long since gone broke, shut down, or sold out. Some of them were making one particular shuttle part and that was their ONLY product! Of course you can guess how much a "each one made by hand" part costs, which is to say, NOT CHEAP!!!

NASA had, previous to the loss of Columbia in February of 2003, determined that the entire shuttle fleet was going to need a complete avionics overhaul by 2010 to remain flying and be "certified" to continue flying to 2020 or beyond... such a program was going to cost at least a BILLION dollars to create the new avionics systems, determine that they met the reliability and compatibility requirements for flight hardware and software (WAY more than 99.999% reliability) and actually produce, install, and test the hardware and software out. After the Columbia broke up in early 2003 and Bush 2 announced the shuttle's planned retirement in 2010 (it actually was extended into 2011) the work started in earnest on the shuttle replacement "CEV" (later "Orion") capsule.

Congress actually put several extensions on the shuttle program, attempting to forestall shuttle retirement. Mike Griffin, former NASA Administrator under Bush 2, basically instituted a "scorched earth" policy by closing out contracts with essential "one-off" shuttle parts suppliers; with no more shuttle parts contracts, several companies making parts *absolutely essential* to continuing to fly the shuttle COMPLETELY shut down; others that had maintained specific assembly lines or equipment necessary to build now otherwise utterly obsolete parts the shuttle required quickly scrapped the antiquated equipment and tooling to make those parts, and so basically once the parts contractors were gone, shuttle retirement was a done deal... it would have cost more to "create new parts" from scratch than it would be worth.

This was a good thing, because the shuttles were terribly outdated and unsafe... yet a replacement would cost SO much and there were SO many 'vested interests' (ie, the "shuttle mafia" of big aerospace companies not wanting to lose their 'bread and butter' shuttle contracts-- "the goose that laid the golden egg") pressuring/lobbying Congress to keep shuttle that had they NOT finally "forced" the shuttle retirement the "powers that be" would have been content to keep flying the [email protected] things in perpetuity... no matter HOW STUPID it was...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Plain and simple, everything breaks. The newer it gets though the more expensive it gets.
> 
> For example, one spring was planting beans, made one round and the three point quit on the MF8160. Could use the fender buttons though to raise and lower, finished the outside rounds then those started acting up as well. Got the Hiniker unhooked and took the tractor home. Turns out the three point hitch position sensor took a dump. Of course nobody stocks one, of course then it rained for ten days.
> 
> ...


Where I get PO'd at new stuff is when they use a friggin' button to work a solenoid to do something that could just be operated by a lever or cable and "cut out the middleman". The NEW new stuff uses a touch screen to tell the computer to activate a relay to feed power to a solenoid to do the same friggin' stuff... it's RIDICULOUS.

"The more they overdo the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"

-- Montgomery Scott, Chief Engineer, USS Enterprise

I'll take good old cables and levers ANY day of the week over a bunch of friggin' wiring and computers and solenoids and flippin' relays that constantly give grief!!!

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Hayjosh said:


> One thing I really hate is when a tractor has the fill level plug for hydraulic fluid...that's something you should be checking pretty regularly. So my 4610--which I know at least came with dipsticks at one time because it's in the manual--has a fill level plug for the hydraulic fluid. So guess how much it actually gets checked vs. how much it really should? The hydraulic fluid fill is on the top of the rear left axle beneath the hydraulic remotes so it's a mess to try to add fluid, and the fill level plug is on the right side of the tractor, making it essentially impossible to see when you're adding fluid. Talk about STOOPID.


Have you checked to see if you could fit a dipstick on it from an older model?? Might be possible...

Mom and Dad's new "Possum Van" (Dodge Grand Caravan) doesn't have a dipstick on the transmission anymore. How friggin' stupid! Looked it up on YouTube and evidently what they do now is, take it to the dealer, they let it cool off completely, then they take out this dinky "dipstick" and screw it in the top of the transmission in place of the fill plug. They unscrew it back out and read the oil level corresponding to whatever "number" is on the side of the dipstick at that oil level. Then they consult a friggin' chart in the manual that tells them the correct oil level range in the numbers on the factory-tool dipstick CORRELATED TO THE OUTSIDE TEMPERATURE!

For FRICK'S SAKE, it's just friggin' transmission oil, not plutonium in a friggin' hydrogen bomb core! "Close" is close enough!

Looked on YouTube and basically what a lot of guys are doing is making their own dipsticks... One guy had a buddy who was a Dodge tech, he brought home his "factory" dipstick tool over the weekend and photocopied the temp/number chart from the book... the "shade-tree" guy took his engine dipstick, cleaned it off, laid the "dipstick tool" beside it, and marked the numbers correlating to "cool" (75 degrees) and "hot" oil (130 degrees) on the back of the engine dipstick with a sharpie marker, then used a die grinder to scuff/crosshatch the proper "cold" and "hot" oil levels of the transmission on the engine oil dipstick, and notched it a bit at the edges, including the "depth" of the standard factory "plug dipstick" tool, so he knew how far down into the transmission to stick it... Voila, dipstick and the factory engineers can to [email protected]# themselves...

Later! OL J R


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

CowboyRam said:


> I have always said that Architects, and Engineers need to spend at least five years out in the field before they can even put lead to paper. I think part of the the problem is that each engineer that is working on each project only does a small part of it, and they don't care that, oh maybe someone may have to get at that doohickey that they just covered up with their whatchamacallit, and now you have to un-assemble the whole thingamabob just to fix the gizmo.


Well, that and the fact that companies are SO friggin' money-hungry and GREEDY anymore...

*EVERYTHING* is designed SOLELY for the FASTEST/CHEAPEST ASSEMBLY nowdays, because the bean counters have figured out if you have a couple seconds installing the thing in the car/truck/tractor/machine on the assembly line, and they assembler does 150-200 of those a day, or you save a half-cent on each unit because you make the friggin seat belt 4 inches shorter or *whatever*, why in a year that's a BAZILLION FRIGGIN' BUCKS!!! SO, they don't care if it starts leaking after a year or two-- so long as they "make it out of warranty" without *too* many claims, SO MUCH THE BETTER! They don't care if it take some poor sap 3.5 hours to get the other sh!t out of the way to replace the 10 cent part they charge $50 bucks for that takes 2 minutes to actually do once you're in there, SO MUCH THE BETTER-- they collect more in shop rates!

Another reason I like older stuff... it was designed (for the most part) before this sick "prevailing mindset" was commonplace...

Later! OL J R


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

luke strawwalker said:


> Actually that was one of the reasons that the shuttles were retired... The space shuttle had cutting edge electronics-- in 1974!!! They of course had undergone several BREATHTAKINGLY expensive upgrades to make them "play nice" with newer computers and avionics systems, but the heart of the system was vintage-- designed in 1974. Some of the shuttle's computer avionics were SO old that there were a number of companies that were building the replacement parts as "one-offs" because the original companies had long since gone broke, shut down, or sold out. Some of them were making one particular shuttle part and that was their ONLY product! Of course you can guess how much a "each one made by hand" part costs, which is to say, NOT CHEAP!!!
> 
> (snip)


Hmmm. Interesting but relevant commentary concerning electronics. The same "sunsetting" of electronics has a profound effect on the value of CNC operated equipment. An early CNC machine might work perfect today and be worthless because there is no way to communicate with the controls anymore. For that matter, there is a flap now about Haas, the oldest machines of which are not that old, 20-30 years or so, who no longer offers parts to repair the older electronics. If they fail, Haas will happily sell you an "upgrade" which will cost about as much as the machine is worth in the first place.

Now for a rant about how manufacturers can't even get simple things right. New Holland used a self tapping screw to secure the pickup stripper bands on the BR series balers. This eliminates the tapping of the bolt holes. The problem is, the threads in the mount are crappy and likely to strip out as they are lower quality than a tap cut thread. Also, the bolts they use are prone to strip the threads right under the head presumably because the process of threading the hole with the bolt takes so much torque that its hard to tell if the bolt is tight or not. If the bolt strips out, the only recourse is to grind the head off and punch the remainder out. I have found that the probability of the bolt stripping out upon first removal is greatly reduced if the bolt is loosened by hand with a ratchet and socket one turn or so, rather than hammering them loose with an impact driver. After the first removal it doesn't matter, just don't reuse any bolt that has damaged threads. I've spent mucho time cursing NH over this little time saving imbecility.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

luke strawwalker said:


> This was a good thing, because the shuttles were terribly outdated and unsafe... yet a replacement would cost SO much and there were SO many 'vested interests' (ie, the "shuttle mafia" of big aerospace companies not wanting to lose their 'bread and butter' shuttle contracts-- "the goose that laid the golden egg") pressuring/lobbying Congress to keep shuttle that had they NOT finally "forced" the shuttle retirement the "powers that be" would have been content to keep flying the [email protected] things in perpetuity... no matter HOW STUPID it was...
> 
> Later! OL J R


Well the shuttle never did what it was supposed to anyways. It came closest, kinda.

Original specifics of the contract different companies were bidding on was for a vehicle that could take off, complete a mission, be refueled and serviced and take off again practically immediately. Think a Boeing 747 except for space.

Instead we ended up with something that was horrifically expensive to maintain and was unreliable. Don't think it was very often the same shuttle was actually in space in the timespan of one year, which is why they needed several.


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## Ranger518 (Aug 6, 2016)

RockmartGA said:


> Like this? LOL


Yea Lexus starter under the stupid intake. Been down that road! Wife had a BMW and I went to check the oil one day and there was no dip stick called dealer and they said you got to bring it in and have them hook to their computer to see fluid levels!


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Ranger518 said:


> Wife had a BMW and I went to check the oil one day and there was no dip stick called dealer and they said you got to bring it in and have them hook to their computer to see fluid levels!


Now that's stupid.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

BWfarms said:


> Now that's stupid.


Need to avoid ever buying a used one, previous owner if not the original probably wouldn't have it checked near enough.

On the other hand, it kinda makes sense in a stupid some engineer thought it was a good ideal kinda way. The original owner of the BMW surely isn't ever going to pop the hood and check the oil themselves&#8230;


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## Ranger518 (Aug 6, 2016)

mlappin said:


> Need to avoid ever buying a used one, previous owner if not the original probably wouldn't have it checked near enough.
> On the other hand, it kinda makes sense in a stupid some engineer thought it was a good ideal kinda way. The original owner of the BMW surely isn't ever going to pop the hood and check the oil themselves&#8230;


That is pretty much what BMW said is that they don't expect the owner to ever work on it so they did not put any on it to keep the engine bay cleaner looking as it had a cover that went over the whole engine and you could not tell there was one there They also do not come with a spare tire.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

Won't every buy a BMW now, no spare?!? That's double stupid, I look forward to hearing about the third 'sensible' thing they remove.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Ranger518 said:


> That is pretty much what BMW said is that they don't expect the owner to ever work on it so they did not put any on it to keep the engine bay cleaner looking as it had a cover that went over the whole engine and you could not tell there was one there They also do not come with a spare tire.


The wife cousin in the UK had an Audi like that, pop the hood and very little to see. It's like they forget that just about every country in the world, there is a strong used car market. Some of these stupid ideals for the first owner kills the value in the used world I'm sure.

Long as it's wanted in the used world, they will sell more replacement parts to the second or third owner than the first would ever need.


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

RockmartGA said:


> Like this? LOL


 That starter job was a piece of cake! Thats a GM car too Caddi or olds with a NorthStar engine. Eady peasy!


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> Well the shuttle never did what it was supposed to anyways. It came closest, kinda.
> 
> Original specifics of the contract different companies were bidding on was for a vehicle that could take off, complete a mission, be refueled and serviced and take off again practically immediately. Think a Boeing 747 except for space.
> 
> Instead we ended up with something that was horrifically expensive to maintain and was unreliable. Don't think it was very often the same shuttle was actually in space in the timespan of one year, which is why they needed several.


They also robbed parts off one orbiter to get another one flying all the time... contributed to the expense. That was one of the things they found in the Columbia investigation and put a stop to.

Kinda ridiculous... Can you imagine, stripping the injector pump off your combine and installing it on your tractor every time you needed to work the field? Crazy but that's how they did things...

later! OL J R


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

luke strawwalker said:


> They also robbed parts off one orbiter to get another one flying all the time... contributed to the expense. That was one of the things they found in the Columbia investigation and put a stop to.
> 
> Kinda ridiculous... Can you imagine, stripping the injector pump off your combine and installing it on your tractor every time you needed to work the field? Crazy but that's how they did things...
> 
> later! OL J R


Would like to know how much of that nonsense was caused by "government"? Like people at the top deciding on budgets, govt waste, etc.
Not a huge Elon Musk fan, but have to think a company like space Ex could have done all this better/cheaper/faster.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

They are killing the A10 warthog the same way, cancelling wing contracts and other major components so the military has to strip parts with remaining hours off anything they can to keep planes in the air.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> They are killing the A10 warthog the same way, cancelling wing contracts and other major components so the military has to strip parts with remaining hours off anything they can to keep planes in the air.


Guessing the A-10 warthog, although very effective, can be replaced with a manless drone attack aircraft? It's a dangerous mission for the pilot.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

New iron not built to last? Funny how its all been said before. Same thing was said 20 years ago when i was in high school. New stuff dont last and cant work on it. Need something older. Now the stuff from my high school days is now the old stuff people want and they say excally the same thing about this new junk not built to last and cant work on it. ????


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

A new more capable aircraft is being developed to replace the A-10....


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

They just want the funding to funnel into more F-35's. They keep testing it for close air support and it can't fill the same role the A-10 can, neither can the drones.



somedevildawg said:


> A new more capable aircraft is being developed to replace the A-10....


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

slowzuki said:


> They just want the funding to funnel into more F-35's. They keep testing it for close air support and it can't fill the same role the A-10 can, neither can the drones.


You have to wonder if drones are the future of close support aircraft though.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Already there in a big way, going to grow and grow.



JD3430 said:


> You have to wonder if drones are the future of close support aircraft though.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Nope, they're developing a new one......


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

hog987 said:


> New iron not built to last? Funny how its all been said before. Same thing was said 20 years ago when i was in high school. New stuff dont last and cant work on it. Need something older. Now the stuff from my high school days is now the old stuff people want and they say excally the same thing about this new junk not built to last and cant work on it.


Agree. I think it's a matter of people who use/work on the newer equipment accepting that it's here to stay and learning how to fix it. I like what I see becoming available. Tractors with air brakes, exhaust brakes, suspensions, more comfort and safety. 
No disrespect meant to anyone running older equipment. It cannot be overstated that new equipment is VERY expensive and out of reach by most hay farmers....ME INCLUDED


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

BWfarms said:


> Won't every buy a BMW now, no spare?!? That's double stupid, I look forward to hearing about the third 'sensible' thing they remove.


Quite a bit of cars don't come with a spare now. The new Mustangs don't, just a can of tire goo to reinflate a flat.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Agree. I think it's a matter of people who use/work on the newer equipment accepting that it's here to stay and learning how to fix it. I like what I see becoming available. Tractors with air brakes, exhaust brakes, suspensions, more comfort and safety.
> No disrespect meant to anyone running older equipment. It cannot be overstated that new equipment is VERY expensive and out of reach by most hay farmers....ME INCLUDED


How is a farmer going to pay for this equipment if they put all the bells and whistles on?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hog987 said:


> New iron not built to last? Funny how its all been said before. Same thing was said 20 years ago when i was in high school. New stuff dont last and cant work on it. Need something older. Now the stuff from my high school days is now the old stuff people want and they say excally the same thing about this new junk not built to last and cant work on it.


Possibly, but that older stuff wasn't near so electronic. Any of this new stuff is done when the OEM decides not to make a replacement module or box. Especially done if none of the aftermarket suppliers picks it up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

carcajou said:


> How is a farmer going to pay for this equipment if they put all the bells and whistles on?


Crazy, aint it? I cant afford anything but used when it comes to tractors. The used stuff from Europe with some of the bells & whistles is kind of appealing, but I also see why the older simpler iron is appealing, too.

I think the newer, bigger super hi-tech equipment is really for the big corporate farmers. Certainly not in the budget of a mid size mulch king like me...


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

In uk they sell the high end contractor spec with bells and whistles and also the stripped farmer spec tractors. Don’t see a lot of the farmer ones make it to here as they don’t have ac for example.


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