# GMO alfalfa



## azmike (Jan 4, 2015)

We put in our pivot RR alfalfa as the field had not been worked in anyones memory and was wild with weeds. We have lost a couple of potential sales when asked if the field was/is gmo free. One is a 6 cow dairy that is selling shares or some deal to get around regulators. The other is a ranching friend that does the farmers market direct sales of grass fed beef.

We want to phase out retailing hay as we build our cattle herd but I was surprised by this twist.

I did some reading on the subject before choosing but felt that the USDA was OK with beef and GMO's.

It might just be the "hippie fringe" opine?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

azmike said:


> We put in our pivot RR alfalfa as the field had not been worked in anyones memory and was wild with weeds. We have lost a couple of potential sales when asked if the field was/is gmo free. One is a 6 cow dairy that is selling shares or some deal to get around regulators. The other is a ranching friend that does the farmers market direct sales of grass fed beef.
> 
> We want to phase out retailing hay as we build our cattle herd but I was surprised by this twist.


I also am surprised.....but I could see the very small dairies position.....I would not get too caught up just yet.....I think you will find in time the very vast majority of folks won't even ask about it.

Regards, Mike


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

Here it's limited to tree huggers and the like.
I thought I would have that problem but hasnt happened yet


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I haven't lost any sales yet because it is rr. The management is so much easier I feel I can lose a couple and still be ahead. Until this stuff I wasn't sure I could grow good alfalfa.

On a somewhat related note: We sell a little roadside sweet corn. Just enough to be a pain but not enough to be profitable. We supply our extended family with freezer and fresh corn so we are gonna grow it regardless. When I was buying seed this spring I decided to go ahead and get the rr. My wife has been asked by several cash customers last year if it was gmo corn and she talked me out of buying it. Went ahead and bought regular seed and sprayed with Lumax. Record rainfall in June, worst weeds ever and bad year to plant on heavy soil. Haven't got enough crop to bother selling. I don't think the suburban folks that come out to their vacation lake homes over the hill are going hungry yet though.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've never had anybody ask about GMO alfalfa yet.

Wonder if possible to get RR and leaf hopper resistant?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

mlappin said:


> Wonder if possible to get RR and leaf hopper resistant?


Pretty sure Cy knows of a variety or two that are hopper resistant.

Regards, Mike


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

Soil fumigation in plant nursery brings out a couple of wackos every time.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

I am far from a hippie tree hugger - I consider myself a follower of Jesus Christ and very conservative overall - and I do not do GMO anything. I have done quite a bit of research and reading on the subject and I just don't feel it is how I want to farm.

I don't think the general public has any clue about GMO's, so as far as marketing goes in the big picture I don't think you will be hurt.

I am a very small operation and I do tend to highlight the fact that my product is non GMO, too early to tell if it has affected sales or not. But I figure I can market to anyone - those who could care less about GMO's and those who don't want GMO's.


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

Good for you. ^^^
I haven't done any research I just hate weeds.
Feel free to school me on the hazards of rr.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

mlappin said:


> I've never had anybody ask about GMO alfalfa yet.
> 
> Wonder if possible to get RR and leaf hopper resistant?


Yea I have it available.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

I grow RR alfalfa and I had a lady ask if there were chemical sprays on the hay, and I told her, "I sprayed Roundup about a year ago, but it ought to be all gone by now." She then said, "it must be that GMO stuff." I then told her that "to believe that GMO was bad was like believing in witchcraft."

The fact is the following: *Every life form on the plant is genially modified.* Your genicics are different to your parents, your genes are modified.

The clown anemone fish has evolved specialized genes to be immune to the poisons of the anemone.

Roundup resistant weeds have evolved to be resistant to roundup by self gene modification, giving themselves the same type of resistance mechanisms the scientists gave RR alfalfa, corn or cotton. Billions of bacteria gene swap and gram-negative bacteria exchange genes with other resistant bacteria to overcome antibiotics. GMO have been around 500 million years before humans were on earth.

The big problem is public schools. I can guarantee that 99.9 % of those who are afraid of GMO went to public schools and were intellectually crippled by the socialist propaganda and the aversion to science and logic. The problem is not GMO, but GMB, that is, Government Modified Brains.

Read a science book, or better yet, read my book: The Biology of Human Freedom.


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

Right on ^^^


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

RR anything was simply the result of scientists speeding up natural selection, like Hugh pointed out, weeds are doing it themselves with no fiddling from scientists.

It's next to impossible to convince some that with RR anything we actually use less chemicals, don't even try to tell them BT corn greatly reduces the use of very potent insecticides that have a residual that lasts months. The guy in town that used to own the elevator couldn't even handle a sealed bag of Dyfonate without getting sick, but BT corn is evil. Go figure.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

having RR alfalfa hasn't lost me any sales. Do you disclose that it is or just wait for people to ask? I disclose to everyone.


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## azmike (Jan 4, 2015)

It might be a perceived problem without enough valid information, just opinions, kinda like global warming?


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

There is a difference between something evolving over time and and humans inserting a gene from an altogether different species. . .As far as I know all of the evolving with clown fish and other examples came from two of the same species mating. GMO's are taking traits from a completely different species and creating a completely different creature.

Aside from the moral/ethical debate (which I don't think this thread was started for), I don't want to use roundup even if it is "all gone" from when it was sprayed. I don't want to need it in the first place. I think round-up deals with a symptom and doesn't solve the "root" (pun intended) of the problem.

As far as public schools I think its the opposite - government and regulatory agencies are so influenced by these chemical companies that the general public is told GMO's are perfectly safe. I think it is the minority that are against them - but maybe I'm wrong?


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

Warming the globe 86 cylinders at a time?
Or
Feeding a nation?

Guess it depends on how hungry you are.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I have a friend who's non GMO all the way and quite vocal about it, of course he also thinks the moon landing and the international space station are hoaxes.

Had quite a battle awhile back as he refused to get his kids vaccinated so they could attend school.

A cartoon from when the smallpox vaccination came out which was derived from cow pox.










I know some others who are anti vaxxers, I mean polio is no big deal right? They won't or don't want to get their kids vaccinated but god forbid if Rover misses his distemper or rabies shots.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Here in the west GMO alfalfa is a big deal because so much of our hay is exported. China will not allow GMO alfalfa. Japan has approved it but not all the customers will accept it. The domestic market does not care.

I had a couple of pivots of RR alfalfa when it first came out. Sure did work nice but I can't afford to give up the export market.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

mlappin said:


> I have a friend who's non GMO all the way and quite vocal about it, of course he also thinks the moon landing and the international space station are hoaxes.
> 
> Had quite a battle awhile back as he refused to get his kids vaccinated so they could attend school.
> 
> ...


I would say it depends on the vaccine... Polio and other deadly diseases, of one's that can permanently damage or disfigure someone are one thing, of even extremely contagious diseases, that I can see... But that doesn't mean I automatically and unquestioningly approve of every vaccination "requirement" that the gubmint types demand, often for very questionable reasons...

Like our idiot "Governor Goodhair" here in Texas, who was pushing to force ALL girls in the state to have to take a mandatory three shot series of human papilloma virus (HPV, the supposed cause of some percentage of cervical cancers) in order to attend public school beyond sixth grade... Of course what he wasn't advertising was the fact that he and his buddies at Merck pharmaceuticals stood to make a fortune off these $300 per kid shots...

Plus they could have some health repercussions for the girls... Not huge numbers but not zero by a long shot... And basically to protect against a disease that's preventable by simply not being a whore, and keeping ones legs together...

There were severals bus drivers at the school I drive with that had going daughters who, like me, said we'd homeschool our daughters before we subjected them to such a "vaccination" simply to please some damn bureaucrats...

Same thing with these stupid mandatory flu shots... They CAN cause severe health effects it one has a "bad reaction" (and I've heard firsthand how they can basically destroy one life even if it doesn't kill you)... And all for VERY questionable level of protection... Half the time the reason the push SO hard for folks to get them is to protect "other people" more than the one receiving the flu shot... Same sort of stupidity that prevents my daughter from having peanut butter at school, because some other kid allergic to it might be exposed... So everybody else has to do without our get shots to protect some people who should stay home or live in a frigging plastic bubble... I can bullshit on that... And I refuse to comply... The other guys problems are hire to deal with... If your that sickly or sensitive, stay at home or wear a mask...

It's all a big moneymaking scheme dressed up in sheep's clothing anyway...

Later! OL JR


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

So, are all women who have cervical cancer whores? I don't get it....

But on the question of GMO'S.....why are other countries against GMO'S, what are the biggest objections? Do they think it's voo-doo science?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Buyers of our RR alfalfa don't question that it is GMO. They simply want weed-free alfalfa hay. And their horses don't care that it is RR; they do quite well on it. Without the use of Glyphosate, we'd need to use at least two chemicals in order to control broadleaf and grass weeds. Which is worse? GMO plants are not 'completely different creatures.' I look forward to the time when some gene jockey develops a GMO alfalfa variety that is tolerant to soil acidity.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I hope I get to see RR Orchard grass someday.....I have no problem with anyone that wants to raise non-GMO products....there is a niche market for them and someone needs to fill that market.

But I do not appreciate non-GMO growers promoting their product as "healthier" for the end user. It is possible it could be, but at this point in time there is NO conclusive evidence of that being the case......if there becomes indisputable evidence that GMO's are in fact less healthy than non-GMO's, then I will re-evaluate my thinking.

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

vhaby said:


> Buyers of our RR alfalfa don't question that it is GMO. They simply want weed-free alfalfa hay. And their horses don't care that it is RR; they do quite well on it. Without the use of Glyphosate, we'd need to use at least two chemicals in order to control broadleaf and grass weeds. Which is worse? GMO plants are not 'completely different creatures.' I look forward to the time when some gene jockey develops a GMO alfalfa variety that is tolerant to soil acidity.


Yes and those other chemicals have a long carryover.


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## azmike (Jan 4, 2015)

My friend that has taken issue with my GMO hay sells his "Grass fed" beef for 3-4 times grocery store prices. He panders to the patchouli oil and marijuana crowd that have become the farmers market.

He sets up between the used clothing and American Communists booths at the Saturday markets.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Not that cervical cancer fits into this topic, but the most effective means of monitoring for cervical cancer is a annual pap smear. Cervical cancer is highly treatable if diagnosed within a 18 month period after incubation.....successful treatment is approaching 100%......I too, am skeptical of many vaccines.....if parents would start their post-pubert girls with annual pap smears then that would solve the vast majority of related problems and teach the young ladies proper health care. Cervical cancer is similar to prostate cancer in that if you do not participate in preventive healthcare you may suffer of great consequence.

Regards, Mike


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> So, are all women who have cervical cancer whores? I don't get it....
> 
> But on the question of GMO'S.....why are other countries against GMO'S, what are the biggest objections? Do they think it's voo-doo science?


Man some of you guys love to twist around what someone says... Must be liberals...

No, of course not... But the idiots looking to pass stupid laws like that and that HPV is spread by casual sex infecting females, so therefore they MUST ensure that ALL girls get these sites "to protect them".... Never mind that there is only a tenuous link between HPV and cervical cancer.... Many women have cancer that never had HPV, and vice versa... Simple fact is that it's an expensive and risky solution in search of a problem... Moneymaking tactic pure and simple... It'd be about like someone inventing a lung cancer shot and then demanding that everyone get it because some kid smoke and smoking caused cancer... Isn't it easier to just NOT FRIGGING SMOKE in the first place, and teach your kids right so they don't either? Especially if the shot was 1) not entirely effective, 2) could have serious health problems associated with taking it they wouldn't have had otherwise, and 3) these are many other causes for lung cancer beside smoking that the shot did nothing to prevent...

Don't know why I'm bothering to explain... Some of you guys just want it all your way and to hell with everybody else's rights, even over their own body of their kids well being... Just so long as you and your cronies get their way... Just like nobama and the idiots running this country...

To is something y'all don't like, then scream bloody murder...

Personally, if someone wants to get the shots, more power to them... That freedom to choose.... But others have the right to choose not to, as well, damn sure should.... Too bad the other side is "my way or the highway"...

Same with GMOs.... If you want to grow them, fine. If not, that's okay too. If you want to buy them, fine, and if you don't, THAT IS YOUR RIGHT! Too many idiots want their own way... "I want to grow it because it makes things easier, higher yields, etc, but I don't want people to have the choice NOT to buy it.... They need to be forced to for lack of choice of vilified for opposing it, because *i* like it....

Communism runs deep...

OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

There is evidence that there are a lot of unforeseen and not really understood side effects in GMOs that make them fundamentally biologically different than their progenitors and non GMO siblings... Change in biochemistry, growth factors, and other "undesirable" changes to the GMO crops that were not intended or easily explained our anticipated by the insertion of the new generic material alone...

The seed companies and GMO companies do all they can to suppress that information and marginalized it and researchers studying it... It is "bad press" they don't want. They're only concerned with making sure the genetic traits they insert into the host expresses properly to get a salable product... They're not worried about "unintended consequences" or unforeseen changes so long as it doesn't affect the salability of their product...

Later! OL JR


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

I get what your saying, but I don't hear anyone advocating less choice. But the hysterical green types seem to get a lot of traction with dubious claims these days.
After being in the fruit and veg business for 40 yrs, I've seen more of the other side of the coin as in chemicals taken away or chemical companies not wanting to spend the $$ to re register with the ever increasingly stringent EPA regs.

As far as unintended consequences, that would also have include the multitudes who have died in tropical climates from malaria since DDT had been banned.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

I sure don't want RR Alfalfa in western Canada. The risk of cross contamination to our seed production is way too great.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

carcajou said:


> I sure don't want RR Alfalfa in western Canada. The risk of cross contamination to our seed production is way too great.


I've heard about that as well....it seems Monsanto and others should be held liable if it occurs....they certainly don't hesitate to prosecute folks who "save seed", seems the opposite ought to be true as well...


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> I've heard about that as well....it seems Monsanto and others should be held liable if it occurs....they certainly don't hesitate to prosecute folks who "save seed", seems the opposite ought to be true as well...


Trust me it would not be in their best interest to show up on this farm, no GMO crops have every been grown on this land and i would prefer it to stay that way too.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Hawk40 said:


> I get what your saying, but I don't hear anyone advocating less choice. But the hysterical green types seem to get a lot of traction with dubious claims these days.
> After being in the fruit and veg business for 40 yrs, I've seen more of the other side of the coin as in chemicals taken away or chemical companies not wanting to spend the $$ to re register with the ever increasingly stringent EPA regs.
> 
> As far as unintended consequences, that would also have include the multitudes who have died in tropical climates from malaria since DDT had been banned.


I agree... but there's plenty of nutters to go around on BOTH sides of the issue (most issues in fact). Most folks seem content to grow GMO crops and market them into the "undifferentiated" market, there are some who want to "eliminate the competition". I think it's become a necessary thing, but one that bears watching. I know one thing for sure, the greenie-types with their "mandatory organic everything" model for agriculture simply won't work... there's not enough prime farmland suited to organic production, not enough labor, and not enough production, and certainly not enough money to buy what limited production would be produced from an "all organic everything" production model... IOW, half the world would starve outright. While I respect their right to pay 3X the going rate for stuff at "whole foods" type stores, buy organic burritos and whatnot, it's simply NOT a model that will transfer to the entire food and agricultural production system...

The increasing pressure to remove useful and in some cases irreplaceable chemicals from the marketplace due to overregulation and excessive expenses in recertifying them is another problem area. Sure, some things probably should be replaced, but in some cases, I think there's definitely a problem there, and it's only going to grow, not get better...

Yep, this is true too about the malaria and DDT... we have to be careful of "junk science" and, regardless of the "science" behind something, we need to carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio before taking such actions... the ban of DDT has lead to millions of deaths from malaria worldwide... I read years ago how the banning of cheap R-12 refrigerants would cause untold deaths in the third world because of lack of cheap refrigeration equipment for food and medicine preservation, etc. While the EPA and the green nuts were getting all hot and bothered about banning HFC's on the ground, which any mechanic knows are heavier than air and sink (mechanics have died of oxygen displacement working in pits under vehicles that filled with vented/leaked refrigerant vapors which filled the pit and forced all the oxygen out of the pit they were working in), nobody seemed capable of explaining how all that refrigerant was getting up into the Ozone layer... gee, could it be all that HALON being used in aircraft flying at high altitude?? Could it be volcanoes injecting millions of tons of chlorine into the upper atmosphere?? How about all that chlorine gas outgassing from treated water??
Nope, gotta be freon... LOL

There's two sides to every coin...

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

somedevildawg said:


> I've heard about that as well....it seems Monsanto and others should be held liable if it occurs....they certainly don't hesitate to prosecute folks who "save seed", seems the opposite ought to be true as well...


I wouldn't count on it...

They're finding GMO traits that have somehow gotten into the southern Mexico "cradle of corn" (where the original teosinte grass that was cultivated and selectively bred into the foundations of what we call 'corn' today came from) which is a genetic reserve of incalculable value for future natural disease and pest resistance traits for interbreeding programs. This "genetic contamination" with GMO's threatens to destroy all those untapped genetic improvements that could provide essential disease or pest resistant traits in the future, because it's changing the genetic code of these ancient corn varieties in ways nobody truly understands...

Remember the corn blight of the mid-late 70's that wiped out millions of acres, caused by excessively inbred lines from hybridization passing on a genetic trait that made it overly susceptible to blight?? That was solved by inbreeding some traits from these 'wild corn' varieties to provide resistance... What would have happened had this genetic material not been available because it had been "lost" to genetic contamination from GMO's??

Still, nothing is really being done about it. In fact, the GMO companies make the argument that if it contains *their* proprietary genetic material, that therefore it belongs to them, or "their share" in the form of a technology fee and other remunerations...

I wouldn't hold my breath on getting relief if and when GMO traits contaminate your alfalfa seed stocks...

Later! OL JR


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

carcajou said:


> Trust me it would not be in their best interest to show up on this farm, no GMO crops have every been grown on this land and i would prefer it to stay that way too.


I tried BT cotton not long after it came out... I wasn't that impressed. I found that other insects simply expand their ecological niche and create more damage, replacing that done by lepidopterous pests that the BT was "controlling"...

Plus, I didn't like the "technology agreements". Basically, you signed away all your rights to this company in exchange for 'access' to their genetic 'improvements'. Now those ignorant of history might not get this, but basically I don't like the idea of being a serf to some stupid megacompany on my own land. Why I stood and fought and supported those fighting against the boll weevil eradication programs-- not because of the goal, but because of the methods... you're crop wasn't REALLY yours until you got a letter from the TBWEF STATING that you had paid all your assessments and fees and were in good standing with them. Oh, you could grow a crop, spend the money to put it in, fertilize it, keep the pests controlled, harvest it, and then sell it, but unless you had this letter in good standing on their website, the buyer of your crop was forced, BY FORCE OF LAW, to make your check payable to *you AND the TBWEF*. Take said check to the bank, and they couldn't cash it or deposit it, BY LAW, until TBWEF co-signed it... and they wouldn't do that until you paid all the assessments, fees, and PENALTIES...

Sorry, I don't work that way. Why I quit growing cotton. Basically, the "grower agreements" are really nothing more than the same type of gangster tactics enumerated in a "legal agreement" to which you must sign to get 'access to their technology'. Thanks but no thanks.

What's worse is, even if you never signed a technology agreement or planted any GMO seeds, the companies STILL have the 'right' to come on your property without your permission to take samples and "investigate" possible malfeasance or illegal use of their "technology". Arguing it blew in doesn't cut it, either... ask Percy Schmeiser...

So, basically, your own gubmint has signed off on a megacompany stomping on your private property rights to defend their "technology rights"...

"He who has the gold makes the rules!"...

later! OL JR


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## Hawk40 (Jun 28, 2015)

luke strawwalker said:


> I agree... but there's plenty of nutters to go around on BOTH sides of the issue (most issues in fact). Most folks seem content to grow GMO crops and market them into the "undifferentiated" market, there are some who want to "eliminate the competition". I think it's become a necessary thing, but one that bears watching. I know one thing for sure, the greenie-types with their "mandatory organic everything" model for agriculture simply won't work... there's not enough prime farmland suited to organic production, not enough labor, and not enough production, and certainly not enough money to buy what limited production would be produced from an "all organic everything" production model... IOW, half the world would starve outright. While I respect their right to pay 3X the going rate for stuff at "whole foods" type stores, buy organic burritos and whatnot, it's simply NOT a model that will transfer to the entire food and agricultural production system...The increasing pressure to remove useful and in some cases irreplaceable chemicals from the marketplace due to overregulation and excessive expenses in recertifying them is another problem area. Sure, some things probably should be replaced, but in some cases, I think there's definitely a problem there, and it's only going to grow, not get better...Yep, this is true too about the malaria and DDT... we have to be careful of "junk science" and, regardless of the "science" behind something, we need to carefully weigh the cost/benefit ratio before taking such actions... the ban of DDT has lead to millions of deaths from malaria worldwide... I read years ago how the banning of cheap R-12 refrigerants would cause untold deaths in the third world because of lack of cheap refrigeration equipment for food and medicine preservation, etc. While the EPA and the green nuts were getting all hot and bothered about banning HFC's on the ground, which any mechanic knows are heavier than air and sink (mechanics have died of oxygen displacement working in pits under vehicles that filled with vented/leaked refrigerant vapors which filled the pit and forced all the oxygen out of the pit they were working in), nobody seemed capable of explaining how all that refrigerant was getting up into the Ozone layer... gee, could it be all that HALON being used in aircraft flying at high altitude?? Could it be volcanoes injecting millions of tons of chlorine into the upper atmosphere?? How about all that chlorine gas outgassing from treated water??Nope, gotta be freon... LOLThere's two sides to every coin...Later! OL JR


We grow 600ac of strawberries in Fl and 200ac are certified organic, I'm all too familiar with organic production and you are absolutely right.
It is ridiculously inefficient.
We made a lot of money early on when we had virgin palmetto/pine land to clear and use, but when you have to rotate back to fallow fields a couple years later, things get really dicey not being able to fumigate before planting.
Sales is another issue, the more you promote organic, the more you imply the conventional fruit is inferior.
In reality the conventional is superior in all regards except it's not produced with usda organic certification.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

The only issue I have ever had with GMO crops was once while running a small farrow to finish operation. One cycle not one of the sows bred back. I was told to switch the soy in their ration to conventional if I could get it. I found some after quite a bit of searching. Next cycle they all bred back fine. I doubt that using GMO soy caused the issue as its all I use . never had an issue before or since. Just an odd situation. Some of my friends are very quick to blame RR crops yet are fine with or ignorant of other GMO traits.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Hawk40 said:


> We grow 600ac of strawberries in Fl and 200ac are certified organic, I'm all too familiar with organic production and you are absolutely right.
> It is ridiculously inefficient.
> We made a lot of money early on when we had virgin palmetto/pine land to clear and use, but when you have to rotate back to fallow fields a couple years later, things get really dicey not being able to fumigate before planting.
> Sales is another issue, the more you promote organic, the more you imply the conventional fruit is inferior.
> In reality the conventional is superior in all regards except it's not produced with usda organic certification.


I understand completely... good points.

We raise our cattle without using hormones, antibiotics, or other chemicals to the extent possible. We still use Remedy and diesel basal bark treatments to control mesquite, huisache, and other brush on the farms.

Even if we used NOTHING but organic procedures and materials, however, I still wouldn't pursue "organic certification"... I don't support the idea of spending thousands of dollars and jumping through hoops merely to satisfy a group of bean counters just to get some "rubber stamp approval" of what I'm doing anyway. It's needless expense and only serves to prop up a crooked system.

If others choose to do so, that's their right, and if it makes them money and is good for them, more power to them. If folks want to pay 3X the money for a basically identical product with no real fundamental difference, that's their right as well... more power to them too...

That's just how I feel about it... I'm sure plenty of others on both sides disagree, as is their right... 

Later! OL JR


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

That's pretty much where I am as well Luke. I try to use as little as possible of the newer tech. I will never pursue certification as a lot of their protocols are either uninformed or contradictory in nature. All of my customers know I only use antibiotics as needed and absolutely no hormones. I think its important for us to have the whole toolbox at our disposal for times when we really need it. Take for instance why I use cover crops and rotation instead of herbicides. Its not that I'm against them because I'm not. I have observed how water travels across my ground and have determined that it takes just a couple minutes for rain to contact the ground and make it to the river. Fishing and hunting are a big tourist draw to my area and I owe it to my neighbors to not harm their income. So, in a round about rambling manner,like many, I have no issue with the latest tech but it just doesn't fit with the ground I'm currently farming. Different conditions would call for different management decisions.


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