# When should I consider a self-propelled rotary swather over a pull-type



## bryce

So, me and my dad rent/own 145 acres in hay and do custom cutting/baling on 55 acres of hay that all gets cut three or four times a year. We also custom cut/bale 70 acres of oat hay once a year. We'll also inherit another 160 when grandpa dies, he's like 75. We currently use a hesston 1365 15' 3" rotary pull-type swather and it cuts fast enough to stay on top of things but I think we're getting to the point where we could beat rain better if we were to have a self propelled, that and they're just seem nicer to cut with, but my dad doesn't think so. We could get another tractor so we could bale and cut at the same time, but if we're doing that we might as well get a self propelled swather. If we were to get a self-propelled, it wouldn't be for a few years until after we get a newer truck.

So, my questions are:

At what acre amount is a self-propelled worth it.

How many hours until a self-propelled rotary swather is worn out.

Any experience switching, can you cut faster over bumps/stuff.

How much should I spend.

Anything else you can think of.


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## swmnhay

*For 200 acres of hay a swing tongue is more then enough.I've done 500 with a 13.4'.Which is plenty but VERY cost effective.*

*10 acres/hr is only 20 hrs per cutting.*

*I'd buy another cheap tractor and put on the cutter before buying a SP.*

*Do you want new paint or put some $ in the bank?*


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## JD3430

Agree with swmnhay. I have a self propelled 13-6" haybine (New Holland 1499) not as fast as a discbine.
I would think a good used SP discbine would be 35-50K. There's a nice used 12' Hesston SP discbine at the local JD dealer for 49K with 4,500 hours on it.
For $49K, you could buy a good used cab/4WD CaseIH Maxxum for 35K and a pull type NH discbine for 14K and have the 2nd tractor for all kinds of other jobs.

Love my SP (when it's not broke down), but should have bought pull type discbine.


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## swmnhay

I'm running a MF 1105 on the cutter.Worth about 8K.It's cut all my hay since I went to a swing tongue about 1988.Hook it up in the spring and leave it hooked up all summer.


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## jeff outwest

I used to do lots of custom haying here in the valley where I live. I have SP John Deere windrower. If I were to upgrade. I would go to a pull type disc and Bomber tractor for a whole lot less money than a good used self propelled machine. At 100K plus hard to get one to pay for the 30 days year use it gets in our area.


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## Teslan

I'm going to disagree. SP disc swather all the way. But Of course it's all I've ever known. We had a NH pull type of some sort when I was a kid, but my dad and uncle hated it so much they bought a self propelled within a month. I never have operated a pull type, but I see them running over way to much hay. Also they seem to be much slower. Not only just in field speed, but turning around. I also wouldn't want to be looking back all the time. But everyone is right about the price. New SP swathers are out of sight with the price. But I'm also not sure what a new pull type costs and a good used tractor isn't cheap. For the most part there is a reason that used swathers are used. I haven't seen a pull type swather on any of the dealer lots here in ages.


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## gradyjohn

If you have conditioning rolls on you 1365 then all you need to add is a tedder. That lays the hay out and it dries quicker. A SP is very expensive based on the time of use. I guess you could take the cost/7 years then take the acres plus times a year you cut and divide that into your yearly cost. That is simple I am sure a CPA would do better. My 945 JD MoCo cat cut @ 10mph ... unfourtunately the field conditions delegate the speed. You will do good the do 5.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

I just can't see the economic value in having one unless you are doing at least 4-500 acres a year. I had one in the early 80's only because of a trade I could not resist. A swing tongue model and a good used tractor will do a lot of work. I like the idea of keeping it hooked up through the season. Most guys in ND use a 16 or 18 foot NH swing tongue and cut 1000's of acres a year and I can tell you that those Germans are tight!


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## Teslan

I feel if you are doing 4 500 acres you need to have 2 SP disc swathers. My neighbor does about 700 acres of hay 4 times a year and has 3 sp swathers. Besides if you have that much hay your income should be high enough that buying a SP swather for the tax deductions should make it more then worth it.


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## ARD Farm

We picked up additional contract acres this year do I just added an additional pull type discbine and another tractor. I'm not one who likes self powered anything. My view is it's better to have an additional tractor pulling a driven implement..that can do other chores too.

Not that we are mowing much hay here. All the rain conveniently misses us.


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## JD3430

I really like the view out the front of my SP especially because I suffer from a pinched nerve that affects my neck. That was one of the contributing reasons I bought my SP that others might not be concerned with. It's also more manueverable than a pull type. To stay in a business long term, you have to like what you do and like the equipment you operate. It's great to always do the thing that pays back the best returns, but if owning/operating a SP is what you like, then figure out the extra expenditure and see if it's worth it!!
If I had the money, I'd have a Hesston SP disc.


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## Hayking

we have 800 acres of alfalfa plus our other grass hay that we bale on a normal year we will swath a total of 5000 acres. we use to run a 1431 and just do about 3000 acres a year. it all depends in how long you wanna set in the tractor seat a self propelled will be twice as fast as pull type in a good smooth field you should avg a min of 18 ac/hr. as far as longevity the longest we kept one was 3 years and it had 1300 eng hours and almost 14000 acres on it that last summer we went through the head and rebuilt it putting new turttles, lifters, skid shoes, rock guards, and the drive shafts that run through the head we figure now it is cheaper to trade every year or every other year than keeping it to long. the tractor was still in good shape.


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## Teslan

I would think a pull type would need the same work done on it as a self propelled after 5000 acres. After all the head is basically the same thing on either a pull type or self propelled with regard to turtles, knives, rock guards and the like.


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## bryce

What do you people think about the hesston 8500 or 8550. How fast do they go? Worth it for our acres. I know someone who runs 2 8400 16 ft sickles and they do about 180 acres.


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## jdhayboy

We have a JD 4995 and can cut more hay than my baling can keep up with. We have around 700 acres of devoted hay ground and depending on the year and amount of cows we have it can be more. 
I really like the windrower , cut 40 acres by noon, baling hay by one on separate patch. Less labor, more expensive equipment.


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## Teslan

Had a Hesston 8550 , but traded for a newer one about 3 years ago. They are good. My cousin still has one. If the field is fairly smooth they should cut about 10-12 mph. Top speed in rabbit is about 14 mph. One can easily cut about 100 acres a day if it is a smooth large field.


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## bryce

Teslan said:


> Had a Hesston 8550 , but traded for a newer one about 3 years ago. They are good. My cousin still has one. If the field is fairly smooth they should cut about 10-12 mph. Top speed in rabbit is about 14 mph. One can easily cut about 100 acres a day if it is a smooth large field.


do you know how fast the 8500's will go. How fast will 8550 go in turtle and why is there turtle and bunny? aren't they hydraulic drive, not gears?


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## carcajou

Hesston 8500 and Case 8850 are the same machine. We have an 8850hp and i have nothing but good things to say about their cutterhead, it's bombproof . Ran into large chunks of concrete and riprap that our county "forgot" to remove from a field corner at 12 mph! 14 knives and 20 minutes later up and going. I put larger drive tires on and they ride much better and travel near 18 mph on the road. We run hard averaging 200 acres a day in smaller fields, 280 or more in larger ones. The real benefits of a SP machine include only running over one headland swath when turning, turning speed, and visability when cutting. For these reasons alone i would not go back to a pull type cutter but here is something to ponder. A good 200 hp tractor costs big bucks and you still have to buy the discbine to pull behind it. A clean low hour 200hp 8850hp can be had for under $30,000 if you shop around. We have cut over 4,500 acres in the last two years without any downtime on a 16 year old machine, wished i could say the same on my 8-10 year old NH tractors!


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## mlappin

Can't see a SP mower either, unless I hit the lottery, but in that case why would I even f*ck with hay anymore?

Anyways, with a SP swather comes another engine, drive train, radiator, hydraulic pump, another whole set of tires to maintain, and yet another piece of equipment to pay property tax on. With the pull type I have, if any of the above go wrong with the tractor pulling it, unhook busted tractor and hook up another and get back to work.


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## bryce

mlappin said:


> Can't see a SP mower either, unless I hit the lottery, but in that case why would I even f*ck with hay anymore?
> 
> Anyways, with a SP swather comes another engine, drive train, radiator, hydraulic pump, another whole set of tires to maintain, and yet another piece of equipment to pay property tax on. With the pull type I have, if any of the above go wrong with the tractor pulling it, unhook busted tractor and hook up another and get back to work.


I believe on a sickle, this theory works, but a rotary takes 150+ horsepower, so you would have to buy a bigger tractor just for swathing. If that tractor breaks, you still are screwed because you don't have another tractor big enough to run it.

I like what carcajou said about prices and want to add 1 thing: a used SP swather will have 2-3 thousand hours on it. A used tractor is still going to cost more or the same but it will have 10,000 hours on it. It also seems like there is less stuff to fail on a SP swather vs a tractor.

Question really is, do I need to cut and bale at the same time or is there enough acres for the increased cut speed to pay for itself.


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## Teslan

mlappin said:


> Anyways, with a SP swather comes another engine, drive train, radiator, hydraulic pump, another whole set of tires to maintain, and yet another piece of equipment to pay property tax on. With the pull type I have, if any of the above go wrong with the tractor pulling it, unhook busted tractor and hook up another and get back to work.


What do you mean have to pay property tax on?


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## swmnhay

bryce said:


> I believe on a sickle, this theory works, but a rotary takes 150+ horsepower, so you would have to buy a bigger tractor just for swathing. If that tractor breaks, you still are screwed because you don't have another tractor big enough to run it.
> 
> I like what carcajou said about prices and want to add 1 thing: a used SP swather will have 2-3 thousand hours on it. A used tractor is still going to cost more or the same but it will have 10,000 hours on it. It also seems like there is less stuff to fail on a SP swather vs a tractor.
> 
> Question really is, do I need to cut and bale at the same time or is there enough acres for the increased cut speed to pay for itself.


I'm running a Vermeer 1030 MC with a Massey 1105 rated at 100 pto hp.It plays with it.It takes under .5 gal per acre to run.Guys I've talked to are saying 1 gal per acre with newer SP machines.


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## Teslan

For the most part does this debate maybe come down to location? It seems the guys out west like me prefer the SP. While the guys in the east besides JD like the pull type. Same way with stacking hay. Guys in the west use NH hay stackers. Guys in the east like breaking their backs doing by hand or getting the accumulator things. Or maybe it is that we in the west can typically sell our hay for more since rain doesn't fall from the sky as much in a normal year, so we might be able to stand the expense more for the SP.	Go look at your dealer lots. Are there more pull type swathers or SP ones sitting there? That shows the demand. Around here I haven't seen a pull type for a long time, but lots of SP of each brand. I've only seen one newer pull type around here and that was a guy I bought my Kuhn speedrake from. He had a Kuhn PT swather. . But it turns out he seems to hate all dealers but the Kuhn Dealer.


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## mlappin

Teslan said:


> What do you mean have to pay property tax on?


Exactly what I said, in our county major purchases over $xxx are subject to property tax just like a house, land, or a building.


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## mlappin

bryce said:


> I believe on a sickle, this theory works, but a rotary takes 150+ horsepower, so you would have to buy a bigger tractor just for swathing. If that tractor breaks, you still are screwed because you don't have another tractor big enough to run it.
> 
> I like what carcajou said about prices and want to add 1 thing: a used SP swather will have 2-3 thousand hours on it. A used tractor is still going to cost more or the same but it will have 10,000 hours on it. It also seems like there is less stuff to fail on a SP swather vs a tractor.
> 
> Question really is, do I need to cut and bale at the same time or is there enough acres for the increased cut speed to pay for itself.


I'm pulling a 13' New Holland 1431 with a White 2-110 (110hp) and haven't ran less than 8mph this year. Paid 10K for the White with 4200 hrs on it. Also use it for spreading manure, spreading fertilizer, light tillage work, cutting wood, etc. I suppose you could weld a hitch to the rear of a SP and spread manure with it but I find a tractor much handier.

I have another White 2-110 and a Oliver 1855 and both of those can and have run the discbine. In a dire pinch I have neighbors I could easily borrow a tractor from, borrowing a SP though if I had one and it was down would be a different story.


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## swmnhay

mlappin said:


> Exactly what I said, in our county major purchases over $xxx are subject to property tax just like a house, land, or a building.


 Every state seems to be different.Here in Mn we have no property tax on farm eq.But have property tax on land and homes.We have a state income tax,where as some other states don't.

So it looks like you get penalized buying new eq and we get to deduct it?Our state income tax is based off our Federal tax forms.

We don't have sales tax on farm eq or farm supplies either.


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## mlappin

swmnhay said:


> Every state seems to be different.Here in Mn we have no property tax on farm eq.But have property tax on land and homes.We have a state income tax,where as some other states don't.
> 
> So it looks like you get penalized buying new eq and we get to deduct it?Our state income tax is based off our Federal tax forms.
> 
> We don't have sales tax on farm eq or farm supplies either.


No sales tax on farm supplies or eq here either.

Property taxes are decided on a county by county basis. Here all my hoop buildings are tax exempt unless I pour concrete floors in them or place them on pony walls then they are no longer considered a temporary structure. In the next county over where Dads cousin lives, any hoop building is taxed just like a pole barn. I still depreciate equipment and can deduct interest paid on any loans which of course is reflected in my AGI on the fed sheet, the AGI on the fed sheet is what the state uses here to start screwing you here on an IT40.

On major purchases I stick to used so as not to get screwed on county taxes.


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## JD3430

Teslan said:


> For the most part does this debate maybe come down to location? It seems the guys out west like me prefer the SP. While the guys in the east besides JD like the pull type. Same way with stacking hay. Guys in the west use NH hay stackers. Guys in the east like breaking their backs doing by hand or getting the accumulator things. Or maybe it is that we in the west can typically sell our hay for more since rain doesn't fall from the sky as much in a normal year, so we might be able to stand the expense more for the SP.	Go look at your dealer lots. Are there more pull type swathers or SP ones sitting there? That shows the demand. Around here I haven't seen a pull type for a long time, but lots of SP of each brand. I've only seen one newer pull type around here and that was a guy I bought my Kuhn speedrake from. He had a Kuhn PT swather. . But it turns out he seems to hate all dealers but the Kuhn Dealer.


I think it is a location thing and a size thing, too.
Guys out west typically have bigger property. SPs are more suited for BIG stuff.
I have an SP, but it's a haybine. I'd prefer a pull disc, but prefer a SP disc over both!!
Teslan: There are quite a few stacker wagons out east. I know a bigger operator who does 14,000 sm squares per cutting. He has 3 SP stacker trucks !!


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## JoshA

JD3430 said:


> 1. SPs are more suited for BIG stuff.
> 2. I have an SP, but it's a haybine. I'd prefer a pull disc, but prefer a SP disc over both!!


1. How do you figure that? The only benefit a SP discbine has over a PT discbine is maneuverability, which is really only relevant in small odd shaped fields.
2. I agree with you there. For a sickle machine, I'd definitely prefer the SP, but for a discbine, there's nothing I need to see in front of me anyway.

This SP vs PT argument has annoyed me for years, more so because of guys comments of getting so much more done in an hour with a SP. Tell me, how? Actually don't bother, I know the truth.

The headers are the same, regardless of whether they're mounted on a swather carriage or a pull type carriage, so their ability to cut hay any faster or slower has nothing to do with being mounted in front or behind. The only difference is that on a SP, it's driven by shafts and gears, which is for a fact, more effecient transfer of power than hydraulics. Couple that with hydrostatic drive motors on the swather, and you simply have a less efficient [power conversion] machine than a PT pulled by a tractor with a powershift transmission.

So with headers being the same, that leaves the tractors to be different.

Put a 2013 disc header on an old swather from the 1970s or 1980s and tell me you can cut 18 acres an hour. You can't. Doesn't matter how supercharged you make the engine, you're simply not going to cut at 15mph with an old swather. So why do you think your pull-type can't do 15mph, 20mph even? Could it be the tractor you're using? Lots of custom operators running butterfly mowers on big tractors at 20+ mph all day long.

I've cut at 17mph in heavy first cut with our 2007 pull-type Hesston, pulled by a 2007 JD7630 tractor with 175 Engine Hp.
I've cut at 14mph in light second cut with our 2008 self-p. Hesston, powered by a 190 Hp Engine, and it burns more fuel. It only goes 14mph on the road, so in normal first cut the most it has the balls to muster is 11-12mph and it's just sucking back the fuel like it costs nothing.

So where does the SP speed up your production? In the field? On the road at 14mph? As opposed to the 26mph standard road speed of our tractors, or the optional 33mph tractors! 44mph JCBs? The swather is a bit quicker on the turns perhaps, but honestly you'd have to set the stopwatch to prove it, and have small irregular shaped fields with lots of turns to notice the difference.

I'm not trying to bash Self Propelled mowers, we own one ourselves with me being in the seat 95% of it's run time, and it has it's pros. We switched to the self propelled in late 2008 for the 2009 season for a few reasons.

1. We needed to increase our cutting efficiency, We moved from a 12ft to a 15ft, and the only way to keep the same dry-down with the bigger mower was the double conditioner, only available on the SP.

2. At the time, we were making more and more silage/haylage, the SP Hesston and MacDons offered windrow mergers, allowing two or three swaths to be put into one at the time of cutting, eliminating the need for raking, potential custom cutting advantage in front of forage harvesters.

3. We needed to free up our mowing tractor for other things. If we were to purchase another tractor with the intent of using it for mowing, it would have been another 7030, likely 7730 with TLS, 31mph, & IVT. A price of over 150k, when we'd already just purchased a 7830 IVT earlier that summer and a 7630 IVT the spring prior. The swather we purchased [new] was 20k cheaper than a 7730 with a bigger header, merger, and our pull-type could be traded for 25k. Additionally, since we purchased both a swather and a big square baler at the same time, a discount was possible.

4. In order to achieve the wide swath mowing I like (8ft wide+ swath from the mower), axle spacers would be required, a cost of over 3k plus increased axle stress, especially in rough hay fields at very high speeds.

Like you and probably everyone else, I hate driving on cut hay, more tire tracks from a PT discbine on the headlands, but I haven't seen proof of an improvement in my hay since moving to a swather. Perhaps Hay Wilson or someone else could explain to us the effect of increased wheel traffic on cut hay on the headlands, but here in my hay shed on my farm, whether I'm selling hay to a horse customer or feeding it to our own animals, I really couldn't tell you what bales came from a headland and got trampled on, or not.

If you want to be a turn-key operation and won't benefit from having another tractor around the rest of the year, get a swather. But don't give me bs about being able to accomplish more in a day with a SP discbine than a PT discbine, that all depends on the tractor that's pulling it. New swathers are expensive, but they depreciate rapidly. A new PT discbine for 30k leaves 100k left over for a used tractor. A 16ft center pivot hooked up to an 8300 Deere like this for under 50k would get just as many acres done in a day as most newer swathers.
http://www.marketbook.ca/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=6705585&LP=TH&

But that's just me. We love our swather, but when it can't keep up to our future needs (takes a lot of mower to keep in front of two big balers). I know where we're going next.


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## Teslan

mlappin said:


> Exactly what I said, in our county major purchases over $xxx are subject to property tax just like a house, land, or a building.


Do you have to pay this tax one time when you buy the equipment or every year? Does it stay the same every year or does it go down with the age of the equipment? How do they know what equipment you have or don't have? Do you have to register it? That's kind of what I was asking when I said what do you mean by property tax?


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## Teslan

JD3430 said:


> Teslan: There are quite a few stacker wagons out east. I know a bigger operator who does 14,000 sm squares per cutting. He has 3 SP stacker trucks !!


I've come across many people east of here in states like Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois that didn't even know that NH stackers even exist. I've had some ask me if these are a new inventions. A couple of years ago a guy came here to get some hay and asked how I was able to stack the bales of hay so high and even. I showed him the stacker. He helped on a relatives farm in Michigan for years as a teen (He was in his 20s). He spent the rest of the time buying his hay being mad at his relatives putting him through so much work as he didn't know stackers existed before that day.


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## charlesmontgomery

bryce said:


> So, me and my dad rent/own 145 acres in hay and do custom cutting/baling on 55 acres of hay that all gets cut three or four times a year. We also custom cut/bale 70 acres of oat hay once a year. We'll also inherit another 160 when grandpa dies, he's like 75. We currently use a hesston 1365 15' 3" rotary pull-type swather and it cuts fast enough to stay on top of things but I think we're getting to the point where we could beat rain better if we were to have a self propelled, that and they're just seem nicer to cut with, but my dad doesn't think so. We could get another tractor so we could bale and cut at the same time, but if we're doing that we might as well get a self propelled swather. If we were to get a self-propelled, it wouldn't be for a few years until after we get a newer truck.
> 
> So, my questions are:
> 
> At what acre amount is a self-propelled worth it.
> 
> How many hours until a self-propelled rotary swather is worn out.
> 
> Any experience switching, can you cut faster over bumps/stuff.
> 
> How much should I spend.
> 
> Anything else you can think of.


Yeah. I bet your grandpa doesn't appreciate the fact that you can't seem to wait until he's dead so you and your dad can have his hayfield. You wouldn't have mentioned him being 75 years old, if you weren't thinking that as soon as he passes away you can get his property. You sound like a kid that just wants to convince his dad to buy some equipment that you don't need.
My last advice is to enjoy having your grandpa while he is still around.


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## mlappin

Teslan said:


> Do you have to pay this tax one time when you buy the equipment or every year? Does it stay the same every year or does it go down with the age of the equipment? How do they know what equipment you have or don't have? Do you have to register it? That's kind of what I was asking when I said what do you mean by property tax?


Every year, and then as it depreciates the amount you pay goes down as it's figured by fair resale value, up to the owner to report what they own. The accessor can also schedule a visit to make sure your on the up and up although it's never happened to us.

Not sure about other states but I'm pretty sure they do something similar, when you buy a new vehicle in Indiana your plates cost a fortune every year, as the value of the vehicle goes down, the cost of your plates or sticker gets lower. Same with farm equipment here as your not buying a plate for each piece even though that was actually discussed at one time.


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## bryce

charlesmontgomery said:


> Yeah. I bet your grandpa doesn't appreciate the fact that you can't seem to wait until he's dead so you and your dad can have his hayfield. You wouldn't have mentioned him being 75 years old, if you weren't thinking that as soon as he passes away you can get his property. You sound like a kid that just wants to convince his dad to buy some equipment that you don't need.
> My last advice is to enjoy having your grandpa while he is still around.


It's not that I can't wait til he's dead, I'd just rather be prepared. An increase 160 acres all of a sudden would take more machine(s) (either faster/bigger, or more of them), and I figured a SP swather would be a cheaper way to handle it than another tractor; and I think our current operation would benefit from one too. We can also do more custom work with more machines. We won't get it until we have the money to pay in cash after we get a newer (2006ish) truck, which I imagine will be at least 4 years. It just would be better to plan ahead 4 years than not plan ahead 4 years. Also, I run it 85% of the time, I ought to get a say.

I think a SP would be faster for one, maybe two reasons. Reason one, it has hydraulic infinetly variable groundspeed. Our tractor is a 15 speed powershift, it 13th gear is 10.7 mph and 14th is 15.3 mph. It can't make that jump day in and day out. I think trying to do this has contributed to it getting a new transmission this summer. So we're stuck at 10.7 mph. If you have an IVT tractor, or more gears, you overcome this problem. SP swather can gradually ease into 12-14 mph cutting. The second is staying in control over bumps, I imagine SP's are better suited for bumps and can go faster over them while maintaining control. If you have front axle and cab suspension on your tractor, you overcome this problem too.

So if I were to get a newer tractor with ivt and suspension, I would be even faster, but that would cost more.

I really havn't had a direct answer to how many hours would one last. As in a tractor usually need's overhauled between 10,000-15,000 hours. How many hours til you can expect a good overhaul on a SP swather, including and not including the cutter head.
Also, how do the older 8500/8550's do over bumps at speed compared to a tractor.

This topic seems to touch a lot of sensitive nerves all around, maybe I shouldn't have asked.


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## swmnhay

bryce said:


> It's not that I can't wait til he's dead, I'd just rather be prepared. An increase 160 acres all of a sudden would take more machine(s) (either faster/bigger, or more of them), and I figured a SP swather would be a cheaper way to handle it than another tractor; and I think our current operation would benefit from one too. We can also do more custom work with more machines. We won't get it until we have the money to pay in cash after we get a newer (2006ish) truck, which I imagine will be at least 4 years. It just would be better to plan ahead 4 years than not plan ahead 4 years. Also, I run it 85% of the time, I ought to get a say.
> 
> I think a SP would be faster for one, maybe two reasons. Reason one, it has hydraulic infinetly variable groundspeed. Our tractor is a 15 speed powershift, it 13th gear is 10.7 mph and 14th is 15.3 mph. It can't make that jump day in and day out. I think trying to do this has contributed to it getting a new transmission this summer. So we're stuck at 10.7 mph. If you have an IVT tractor, or more gears, you overcome this problem. SP swather can gradually ease into 12-14 mph cutting. The second is staying in control over bumps, I imagine SP's are better suited for bumps and can go faster over them while maintaining control. If you have front axle and cab suspension on your tractor, you overcome this problem too.
> 
> So if I were to get a newer tractor with ivt and suspension, I would be even faster, but that would cost more.
> 
> I really havn't had a direct answer to how many hours would one last. As in a tractor usually need's overhauled between 10,000-15,000 hours. How many hours til you can expect a good overhaul on a SP swather, including and not including the cutter head.
> Also, how do the older 8500/8550's do over bumps at speed compared to a tractor.
> 
> This topic seems to touch a lot of sensitive nerves all around, maybe I shouldn't have asked.


You sound like a kid that WANTS something.You don't need a SP swather you WANT it.

Have you been threw some tough times like the 80's.A lot of us have that post on here regularly.Things could turn bad and banker still wants his payment!

You don't need to go 15 mph.If my help went 15 mph I would fire them on the spot.You will spend more time on fixing and repairs then going fast gets you.Yea you can cut that fast on perfectly smooth long fields but you keep talking of driving over bumps.(you blamed tranny problems on shifting up to 15 mph,so why not cut it at 10.7mph?)Sounds like you are in a hurry.

Maybe gramps will give the farm to someone else?It happens!Just think about it.He could read your post and see that you are waiting for him to kick off!

My Dad told me when I WANTED something that I could buy it then when I could afford it.

You asked for a opinion and I'm giving you mine!I don't think you really want a opinion just someone to agree with you!

You should figure out your costs per acre and per ton.Not so much how fast you can drive.

I may have come off as a little rough but you NEED to be able to afford new paint and I don't think you can justify it on those acres.Have you done cash flows?Maybe I got it all wrong are you getting a heck of a premium for the hay?

What are?

Acres.
Ton's per acre.
price per ton.
variable costs.
fuel,fertilizer,repairs,ins,etc
Land cost.
whats rent bringing there?


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## JD3430

I can't even begin to think about new equipement. Waaay out of my reach. I usually buy equipment that's pretty much past its' prime. I know repairs are expensive, but sometimes you get lucky and the equipment doesn't need any repairs or at least I have a shot at doing them myself if they happen. When I look at the margins on hay farming, it makes me wonder how anyone_ could _buy new equipment.
Now there's 2 really big players in my area. They do buy a couple of those beautiful, curvy, green painted tractors for $200,000 every few years. I was amazed that they could do it until I fould out they farmed corn, plowed snow, spread manure for other farmers to help, etc. to help make more money. I plow snow with my tractor in winter too and it really helps make those monthly payments in the lean months.


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## Waterway64

Ar e feilds are irrigated with borders to control the water. If neighbors have a pull type with this type of irrigation they are wishing they had a self propelled. I have owned both and for my operation my self propelled rotary is the only way to go for speed and to avoid getting a kink in your nech looking backward. Mel


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## Canderson012

I'd save the money and just get a very nice moco or 2nd tractor, seems like self Propelled anything is for big time operations.


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## JD3430

Canderson012 said:


> I'd save the money and just get a very nice moco or 2nd tractor, seems like self Propelled anything is for big time operations.


That's what my feeling is, too. I see SP's with 25' wide heads. That makes me think BIG fields, not little lots like I farm out east. I know one guy wrote bs, but where are you getting a PT that's 25' wide? Maybe they exist, but I've never seen one, so I could be wrong. lol
Lots of small farms out east are separated by busy roads, you can't (easily) drive a SP from one to another. Ask me how I know. A 9-12' PT with a hyd swing arm can be manuevered down the road easier than my 14' wide SP.


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## Teslan

JD3430 said:


> That's what my feeling is, too. I see SP's with 25' wide heads. That makes me think BIG fields, not little lots like I farm out east. I know one guy wrote bs, but where are you getting a PT that's 25' wide? Maybe they exist, but I've never seen one, so I could be wrong. lol
> Lots of small farms out east are separated by busy roads, you can't (easily) drive a SP from one to another. Ask me how I know. A 9-12' PT with a hyd swing arm can be manuevered down the road easier than my 14' wide SP.


 I think the 25 foot heads are only draper headers? Used for silage. You couldn't dry the hay well from a 25 foot head. That would be a huge windrow. The largest rotary is 15 and some change. You are right about the small fields out east. I see lots of guys commenting on here about 2-7 acre fields. There are very few fields that small here. We have one and I would hate to cut it with a PT because of some rather sharp corners of the field that would be hard to get to with a pull type. They are very hard to get to with the baler. Plus irrigating small fields out here is very tough. And without irrigation you have nothing.


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## mlappin

Krone does make a 20' disc machine, only available with flails atm for conditioning.

Basically two 10' machines sharing a common frame and hitch.


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## SVFHAY

Since on one answered op question on hrs, I will offer this. Here, an area with rocks and wet cutting conditions, 1000 hrs on a disc head and it will be ready for $ in repairs. I would imagine from what little of Utah haying I have seen, mostly level irrigated and dry, I suppose it would last longer. On the tractor itself it should be dependable for quite a bit linger if maintained. I dropped $4500 on a pump for a HW 340 a few years ago at 1500 hrs though.

My 82 yr old father does most of the cutting and here and is very comfortable doing so. He told me if I got a swing tongue pt to get someone else to cut!

From what I observe of used equipment listings, self propelled machines both sickle and disc are pretty common in Utah. A worn out sickle could be rebuilt a lot cheaper than a worn out disc and a sickle should preform in dry conditions better than they would here. I may have another pull type someday but I won't have a sickle here.


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## JD3430

Yup, my sickel SP doesn't like anything even remotely damp.


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## slowzuki

Being an easterner with small fields (smallest that I bale is 0.5 acre, in a chain of small fields) I could see how a SP might be fast in weird shapes but we don't really have machines over 10-12 ft around here. Our yields per acre are high so we don't need to cover as much ground. In small fields here with a 10 ft discbine you're still dropping what a least 3.5 acres per hour? At 5 tons an acre minimum in any managed hay up to 7.5 t/acre in well managed, you're mowing at least 350 small square bales an hour.

Big problem is getting wide machines into fields. Our access roads are narrow. Even a 10 ft discbine is a pain to road transport. I currently mow with a mounted 10 ft mower conditioner and while a pain to hook up, is it ever nice to get into fields. I can access hay in fields that no one else can get too which has opened up some ground to me and allowed some pasture clipping.


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## JD3430

I just found a little baby NH 499 pull haybine for $1,000, Thing looks good. Might need one $5 blade. Rolls look good, too. Being I can't afford a disc, this might be the little guy for the exact fields Slowzuki so accurately portrayed that we have out east.
I just came back from a meeting with a HOA president of a high end 100 house development. It has 4 1-8 acre common areas. They're paying thru the nose to have some joker come in and cut with a field mower when I could hay it for them for FREE. He was tickled that I could save the residents money and still cut the fields 2-3X/yr.
Circling back to SP v.PT cutters, out east, the PT does go down all the little windy hilly roads we have better than my SP, especially with a center pivot.


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## cdhayman

I think that some of you guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This guy comes on here asking for beneficial advice and input on his operation and some of you guys are just biting his head off for stupid little things. He didn't come on here for a lecture.
Now, Bryce. Where in Utah are you located? What size bale do you put your hay up in? where do you sell it to? Is there room for even more expansion? Honestly we won't have a swather unless it is self-propelled. I think that it is a good idea. you just need to look around and see what is available that isn't too far away, and do some budget sheets and see what you can afford. It can only help you be more efficient, as long as it is financially possible.


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## swmnhay

[quote* name='cdhayman' timestamp='1343829439' post='78147']
I think that some of you guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This guy comes on here asking for beneficial advice and input on his operation and some of you guys are just biting his head off for stupid little things. He didn't come on here for a lecture.
Now, Bryce. Where in Utah are you located? What size bale do you put your hay up in? where do you sell it to? Is there room for even more expansion? Honestly we won't have a swather unless it is self-propelled. I think that it is a good idea. you just need to look around and see what is available that isn't too far away, and do some budget sheets and see what you can afford. It can only help you be more efficient, as long as it is financially possible.
*[/quote]
*I may of come off a little hard on him BUT.*

*He doesn't appear to look at the costs.That is the important thing.Buy a new cutter or a new trctor with CVT is gonna cost alot of $.*

*My advise is he doesn't need it,and I stick by that.*

*If he spends to much $ and goes broke alot a good the new eq did him!*

*Would it be better if we all said go for it buy all new eq and he ends up going broke?*

*Maybe he gets $300 a ton every yr with a bumper crop.If so then it's a different story!*


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## NDVA HAYMAN

CDHayman, I think what you and I am hearing here is a regional thing. I might be wrong. In the east, you just can;t get anything here in a sp that will travel down our roads. The roads are just too narrow. I have owned one just like JD3430's that I bought new, and it was a good machine except in thick and down timothy. It was a sickle machine. In ND where I also farm, most fields are at least 80 ac and up and you can really make some time with them. Mostly long and straight fields. Quick turning in the headlands, etc. Sooo, I think there are different opinions for different areas. If I was doing 4-500 acres a year and several cuttings and could move the machine over the road, then I would definately have another one except it would be a disc. I wish him good luck with anything he decides as I do everyone. Just different opinions. Mike


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## JD3430

I don't understand why the JD's, NH's, Case-IH's of the world gave up on the small simple, 75-100HP SP's like the JD3430 and the NH1499. I think they are great little machines that, with a little modernization, small 10-12' disc heads, and an under 50K pricetag, could have been wonderful machines for someone like me. I also wondered why they couldn't equip them with a small rear hitch so one could use it to run a ground driven tedder. That would make the machine a little more versatile to help free up a tractor a little more, but what do I know....lol
I looked all over for a JD3430 and just missed buying one last year (hence my on-line handle name "JD3430"). I guess I should ask the mods for a name change....lol


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## Teslan

Maybe they just figured everyone that would want a smaller one like those would be happy with a PT and larger would want a SP. Then they wouldn't have to make one more machine. Quit thinking on your own and you will be happier. Be a sheep.


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## JD3430

Teslan said:


> Maybe they just figured everyone that would want a smaller one like those would be happy with a PT and larger would want a SP. Then they wouldn't have to make one more machine. Quit thinking on your own and you will be happier. Be a sheep.


LOL.
You make a good point. I'll let the gov't do my thinking for me!!


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## Mike120

JD3430 said:


> You make a good point. I'll let the gov't do my thinking for me!!


Nah....Then you'd have to move down to South Philly to fit in.....you wouldn't like it.


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## Will 400m

Not to push a brand but NH makes an 8040 that's 124 hp and you can get a 12, 14, 16, 18 foot sicle head. Now it's pricy at a base with a 12 foot sice of close to 100k but it looks nice in the pic's. Or a 13 foot disc for 3k more.


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## JD3430

Mike120 said:


> Nah....Then you'd have to move down to South Philly to fit in.....you wouldn't like it.


I'm actually originally from South Philly, but by no means fit the stereotype.


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## bryce

cdhayman said:


> I think that some of you guys ought to be ashamed of yourselves. This guy comes on here asking for beneficial advice and input on his operation and some of you guys are just biting his head off for stupid little things. He didn't come on here for a lecture.
> Now, Bryce. Where in Utah are you located? What size bale do you put your hay up in? where do you sell it to? Is there room for even more expansion? Honestly we won't have a swather unless it is self-propelled. I think that it is a good idea. you just need to look around and see what is available that isn't too far away, and do some budget sheets and see what you can afford. It can only help you be more efficient, as long as it is financially possible.


We're in Springlake (which is about to become Payson).

We bale about 2000 3x3 bales about 300 of them are the oat bales, only about 1500 are ours, the rest are custom. We use very close to a whole pallet (48 rolls) of twine a year whatever that is.

We have a guy that comes and buys it by the semi load who takes most of it to Eagle Mt. , Utah and some of it to Wyoming. He's buying for $80 a bale. I don't know what they weigh exactly and he doesn't want to weigh them either. I'm guessing around 800 #'s. He sells most of it to horse people a bale at a time and makes a few bucks off it as a side job. We also have milk cows that use the other 1/3 of it, but we're cutting down the number of cows we have because our co-op want's us to because it doesn't have enough demand in Utah and has to ship it to Colorado which is expensive.

There is room for expansion in custom cutting and baling for people, but not really in acquiring land.

Thanks for sticking up for me cdhayman.
By the way, anyone out there get hit hard by wind last week? We had probably 3-5 bales worth of hay blow away and the rest we had to rake back into windrows.


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## Teslan

Bryce I think we farm very similar amounts of hay ground and we have a self propelled disc swather. You mentioned in your first post that if you got another tractor you could bale and cut at the same time. True enough. Are you using the same tractor to cut hay and also bale with the 3x3 baler? I baled hay yesterday with our 3x3 and cut hay today and I sure wouldn't have wanted to take the tractor off the baler to cut the hay today only to put it back on to bale. If so that is some chore to take the tractor off the baler and hook it to the swather. I don't know what HP is needed for your PT swather, but if you need a similar powered tractor for it as the baler I think you would do as well to trade your PT swather in on a new or used SP swather rather then look for a used 130-175 hp tractor. Good used tractors of that power equals about the price of a good used disc SP swather. That's my view of good which might be better then other's view of good. Also if you guys aren't loaded down with debt and make a pretty good income every year then maybe buying a SP swather would help you pay less taxes with the depreciation of the new or new to you equipment.. I always choose equipment over taxes. Plus it will truly be needed if you ever start farming more. Your grandpas place or another. $80 a bale is the normal price for a 3x3 bale here as well, but this year and the end of last year it's about $130 a bale. I suggest weighing the bales once in awhile. You might be shocked that they mgiht be 950 lbs or so. If that's the case time to raise the price.


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## somedevildawg

I say buy a sp swather whenever you can afford it, pros and cons to each, but if my fields were big enuf I would buy one, like most here in the east I have fields that are 26, 15, 10, 8, 6, 5, 3, and 2 acres. Need the maneuverability here that the pt offers, wish you the best. One word of caution, never mention your grandparents in the same breath as death, the process of aging happens to us all, some handle it better than others both mentally and physically, but because of their age they are no closer to deaths door step than any of the rest of us, we could all, anyone of us, be gone in the blink of an eye.......regardless of age. Good luck out in Utah


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