# Belt Question - Rebel 5400 - New to Baling



## CCCC (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm fairly new to baling (3rd year) and have a couple of questions. I had a Vermeer 5400 Rebel given to me and it works decent. Meaning it rolls up grass and the cows eat it. I only need about 150 bales a year and I put everything up myself. The bales have always been sloppy looking and sag, but I'm putting them in the barn for my own use. This year I replaced all the chains and checked bearing, rollers, pick up clearance etc. The manual specifies 424" belts. There is a little difference in belt lengths. I can tell by pulling on them. I took the tightest off and it measures 119 ( 5" short), so maybe they have been re-sized before I got it? I plan on resizing all of them to the shortest and see what happens before I spend $1K on new belts. So, my questions are:

1) Can belts be too short? I realize they would make a smaller dia. bale, but are there any other mechanical issues against using 418" on a 424" spec.

2) The belts are smooth and have some imprinting on them "139" and "99". They appear to be 3 ply. If you have had this baler would you recommend replacing them w/ the same OEM style smooth or will rough top belts work and be better? If resizing doesn't improve their looks I'll probably call Hammond Equipment in AL and talk/order from them.

3) Can belts be worn smooth and cause loose bales?

I realize what I'm working with, but remember, it was FREE and I have $200 invested in chains, so I kinda want to work on it some before I go spend 20K on a new one.

Thanks for any advice on belts etc w/ this baler


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

IMHO on most rd balers built since the late 80's to early 90's bale appearance & shape is determined by shape of windrow and baler operator. Smooth belts might affect bale core starting but not bale shape/levelness. I think you got a bargain to get an operational Vermeer Rebel 5400 with only $200 invested in chains. Belts that are too short in length limit how large of diameter a bale can be made which could cause belt lacings to prematurely fail.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

150 bales, $1,000 of belts, works out to something less than $7 a bale in first year. IMHO, I would replace the belts, for the opportunity to make better bales, which could effect the storage / loss possibly, netting more value, equating to dollars staying in your pocket, along with easier handling because of better shaped bales. Maybe allowing you to have excess hay to sell.

Sounds like your belts have been relaced (maybe several times), that is most likely the cause of various lengths. With all new belts you would also be putting even stress on bearings (if you happen to have shorter belts on one side verses other) and less on your lacings. Sounds like you have replace the rest of the ware parts, why not complete the job (sheet metal normal is not replaced, however the pickup could be re-worked in the future, giving you an awfully good baler for a few dollars, if you are doing the work yourself).

Plus with new belts, it is one less potential breakdown when the hay is ready to bale (verses extra dry, because of the time you take to fix a broken lacing while baling). In my experience, equipment seems to break more when I am using it and not while it is setting idle in my shed (bad luck on my part I guess, but maybe others have the same experience).

If you don't plan on keeping machine more than on year, I would do nothing and hope for the best.

Larry


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

r82230 said:


> 150 bales, $1,000 of belts, works out to something less than $7 a bale in first year. IMHO, I would replace the belts, for the opportunity to make better bales, which could effect the storage / loss possibly, netting more value, equating to dollars staying in your pocket, along with easier handling because of better shaped bales. Maybe allowing you to have excess hay to sell.
> 
> Sounds like your belts have been relaced (maybe several times), that is most likely the cause of various lengths.
> 
> Larry


Larry

May I ask how you think new belts are going to cause better bales equaling better handling of bales? My guess the reason OP's belt's are different lengths is because some belts have been relaced while other belts have not been relaced. IMHO as I previously stated better bales are created by tractor drivers ability to correctly feed baler not new belts. $7 per bale belt cost is very high cost to swallow.

Jim


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

For every 3 inches you shorten the belts, you lose 1 inch of full bale size. As far as I know there are no other consequences. However they should be within a half inch of each other. Otherwise you stress one more than the rest. And make sure you relace with the heavier clipper hooks, not the round wire ones.

For Bale appearance, make either a 4'or 2'windrow, not a three foot. Make sure the restrictor plates are not in for dry hay(they are the dishes right above the bottom drum). Maybe bump up your rpm and slow down. Vermeer slowed that baler down for lower horse tractors. Also maybe take a look at your hydraulic tension cylinder. You can hook a pressure gauge up to it.


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## CCCC (Jun 3, 2016)

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'm Obviously not an expert hay maker, however I believe the windrows are near perfect. I use an 8 wheel take. This baker has the gathering wheels and they seem to roll exactly on each edge of the windrow. The bales are uniform they are just loose. The tensioner is as tight as it will go.

I learned a little history today. My dad bought the baker used with supposedly 400 bales through it. He put 400 through it before giving it to me. I've used it for another 300 or so. He never worked on the belts and the best I can tell from looking at the ends, they look like factory cuts so I am assuming they are original but why would they be 4" too short? I got some new lacing and borrowed his tool. I'll even them out and see what happens, then probably just get a new set and use these for spares.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Balers will bale with what look like lousy belts. I wouldn't do anything other than resize what you have unless you're just in the mood to spend money.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Another thing not mentioned about different length belts especially 5'' difference in length is the belts actually travel at slightly different speeds which can cause undue wear on rollers if enough bales are formed with irregular length belts. I've seen roller that one could visually see the accelerated wear from belts being used of different lengths.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

Do you have a manual?? Usually belt specs are in the manual.

Sounds like they were resized a time or two, probably ripped out lacings and were trimmed and relaced. I know ours were done that way several times. The belts SHOULD be all within a certain length of each other-- if some are too long and others too short, you start having problems with bale shape.

If you have a belt get damaged, you can sometimes put a "Dutchman splice" in it (splice in a new short section of new belt) but that's kind of a stopgap measure-- the new belting will not respond to load the same way as the older belt (it stretches different) and eventually causes the belts to give out faster.

I know our baler's belts were 466 inches long new, and IIRC from memory, they can be shortened up about 10 inches before they should be replaced.

I got a whole new set of mini-rough tops from Hammond Equipment years ago and have been VERY pleased with them. At the time, I think we gave about $600 for the top belts and another $450 for the bottom belt and lacing kit (5 foot wide platform belt in the bottom of the baler).

Belts CAN get too short and usually you'll start having lacings rip out or tracking problems (all the belts bunching to one side or the other, etc).

Our baler had 2 ply smooth belts from new, we replaced with 3 ply mini-rough tops and they work great.

Later and best of luck! OL J R


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

CCCC said:


> Thanks for the replies so far.
> 
> I'm Obviously not an expert hay maker, however I believe the windrows are near perfect. I use an 8 wheel take. This baker has the gathering wheels and they seem to roll exactly on each edge of the windrow. The bales are uniform they are just loose. The tensioner is as tight as it will go.
> 
> I learned a little history today. My dad bought the baker used with supposedly 400 bales through it. He put 400 through it before giving it to me. I've used it for another 300 or so. He never worked on the belts and the best I can tell from looking at the ends, they look like factory cuts so I am assuming they are original but why would they be 4" too short? I got some new lacing and borrowed his tool. I'll even them out and see what happens, then probably just get a new set and use these for spares.


The older Vermeer belts shrink with time. That is why they would be too short, though 5" seems a bit extreme.

I would take the tension cylinder off the baler and check the charge. If you need directions, I'll see if I can scare some up.


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## CCCC (Jun 3, 2016)

E220, removal instructions would be very useful. I have an operator manual and a parts manual. Neither show removal. Thanks


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> IMHO on most rd balers built since the late 80's to early 90's bale appearance & shape is determined by shape of windrow and baler operator. Smooth belts might affect bale core starting but not bale shape/levelness. I think you got a bargain to get an operational Vermeer Rebel 5400 with only $200 invested in chains. Belts that are too short in length limit how large of diameter a bale can be made which could cause belt lacings to prematurely fail.





Tx Jim said:


> Belts that are too short in length limit how large of diameter a bale can be made which could cause belt lacings to prematurely fail.





Tx Jim said:


> Larry
> May I ask how you think new belts are going to cause better bales equaling better handling of bales? My guess the reason OP's belt's are different lengths is because some belts have been relaced while other belts have not been relaced. IMHO as I previously stated better bales are created by tractor drivers ability to correctly feed baler not new belts. $7 per bale belt cost is very high cost to swallow.
> Jim


Jim,

With a premature belt failure and a rain storm on the horizon, finishing baling verses letting your hay get washed. Couldn't that help have better quality hay and possible better shaped bale?

And with all new belts, the same length and stretch with given pressure, possibly help in forming a more constantly shaped / dense bale, help with handling. Along with the ability to operate the baler at closer to it's designed capacity. Which in turn, would mean possible less time bale is in camber, hence less chaff falling out of baler, again increasing quality of end product.

I am not saying new belts WILL create better quality, because there is a lot of variables involved in that equation. But new belts COULD help improve his chances to have better quality, by removing a potential break down and allowing the machine to be operated closer to it's design.

As far as the $7 cost being hard to swallow, following is how I analyzed this situation (I only gave the "Cliff Notes" version earlier, here is longer more detail version of how I think things through):

Assumptions (all are meant to be conservative, in my mind, you will find out later why).


Three cuttings per season, 40% 1st, 30% 2nd and 30% third cutting (60 bales 1st, 45 2nd and 45 3rd cutting), all bales weight 1,000# each for simplicity.
He cuts 1/4 of each cutting at a time (25% of his total acreage).
Value of hay at $120 a ton or $60 a bale (all the same price for this scenario).
Being he replaced ALL the bearings and chains, he plans on keeping this machine in working order for several more years (let's say 5 -10 years).

On to the analysis - he does his first 25% of his 1st cutting, taking it easy operating machine at less than the designed capacity, because of the different belt lengths and how much stretch is left in them. He makes bales a little smaller than maximum capacity for same reason. All goes well, gets 15 bales completed (or is it 16+ because he is not baling at capacity, which would be a negative in my mind for handling purposes).

He then cuts another 25% of his hay, feeling pretty confident. The hay is raked at 15% moisture, nice windows, etc., but storm clouds are on the horizon, but enough time to get the job done IF everything goes right. Starts baling, while baling 1st bale a stressed belt gives out, what to do, what to do, pushes on because rain is fast approaching. 2nd bale comes out somewhat OK for missing a belt, may have lost a little quality, but still better than rained on hay. But while baling bale number 2, he has put catastrophic stress on two other belts. As he is baling bale number3 all hell breaks loose, two more belts fail, he is done baling, liquid sunshine washes his beautiful hay (value of hay was $720, becomes worthless with enough liquid sunshine. I am not going into the cost of turning, re-raking, etc.).


Now what do you do make three belts even shorter by splicing again?
Replace all belts?
Replace three belts (possibly creating more problems with the different lengths)?

Spend the $1,000 would be my suggestion again, before the "price" gets higher.

With new belts, he could possibly have higher quality of hay (less chaff out of the baler, because he can operate the baler closer to the designed capacity). Possible less wear on other moving parts (because if baler is baling at design capacity, bale will be formed with less revolutions, I did not analyze that part of cost).

To me the potential true "cost" would be $1,720, which is a lot more than the price of $7 a bale. In this fore mentioned scenario the price would be more like $1,000 - $720 = $280 / 150 = less than $2 per bale (with a first year recovery, over a 10 year period, the $1,000 divided by 1,500 bales, price is less than 70 cents a bale).

Or if I amortize the cost savings of $720 over ten years, it is an average return on investment of about 5.45%.

Lastly, if I used less conservative numbers of only 2 cuttings with a 60/40 mix, there would be 90 bales of 1st cutting (and 60 bales of 2nd), had him cut 1/2 of each cutting each time (verses 1/4th) and used $150 a ton for hay price. The 'cost' paid would look like this: each bale valued a $75 (was $60), first 3 bales come out OK, then lose 42 bales to rain, the price of the lost hay is $3,150, about a 12.15% average return on investment of $1,000.

In either case, Farm Credit Services five year loan rate are 4.65% and Ag-Direct 5 year loan rate is 4.15% (as of today).

I believe I could make a case for borrowing the money if needed.

The silver lining in all this he would most likely never need to replace a belt for a lot of years, at 150 bales a year. This would be a better situation for TxJim to analyze than me on wear and tear items. Along with after new belts, should he go through the pick up, replacing cams, etc.?

It's not always about the 'price you pay' but it could be the 'cost of not paying'. It is similar to the way I have finely wrapped my head around using preservative. It isn't about the price of the preservative and equipment, but the cost of the potential lost hay.

So TxJim, I beg to differ in opinion with you today and still recommend new belts, but that's why we live in America. We can have difference of opinion, but at the end of the day put our differences aside and have an adult beverage together. So may we agree to disagree, I will buy the first one, but you will have to come to Michigan .

Larry

PS by now you might realize that I analyze things for a daytime job (my milk house as I call it, which allows me to farm part-time).


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

For 150 bales per year, I'm with jim. Resize and bale. It's hard enough to justify owning the machine for 150 per year.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Larry

I stand by my statements! I think since I sold,delivered,demonstrated rd balers then started a custom hay baling business in '87 & having baled over 150,000 rd bales I'm qualified to have an opinion. I've seen excellent rd bales made with used rd baler with used irregular length belts. As I stated baler operator & shape of windrow will determine what bale resembles not length of belts.

Jim


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## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

I find that 99% of how pretty your rolls are is opperater if you are a good one then you make pretty hay if you are a medioker then it ok looking hay if you are a bad one then it will look yea you guessed it awful.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

I'm not disagreeing with the operator's ability is what makes a good round bale. The point I tried to make, is if the machine is 'broke' and the hay is lost because of the breakdown, then the quality of that hay that did not get baled before being rain on drops significantly , IMHO most of the time.

Maybe the quality goes up in your areas on hay that is rained on, but it does not go up in my area once it is rained upon (this is quality I am speaking of). I do not think most people would try to bale with three broken belts (as I assumed in the analysis, but if you did THIS could effect the best operator's ability to make a good round bale, his quality round bale could drop).

He has replace bearings and chains as preventive maintenance measures is what I assumed, for this very reason of being able to bale, without breaking down when he needs to bale.

If he does not purchase new belts, then he should at least have the tools/parts/knowledge available to re-lace his belts or have someone like TxJim, who I am assuming can fix one before I find my tools (because he most likely has done a lot of these types of repairs and knows the shortcuts of repairing a belts). Either way, time is urgent, with rain fast approaching.

The amount of bales he is baling is small to many, MY best speed is about 25 bales an hour. The most bales I have done is maybe 75-100 in a day. Whereas someone like TxJim, wouldn't even be ready for lunch or breaking a sweat yet, at my pace I am guessing. 12 spoiled bales to me is more than I would like, but to someone who bales thousands of bales, it is even a smaller percentage of their total bales AND to someone baling 150 bales a year it is a much bigger percentage of his total crop.

Each of us have our OWN risk and reward barriers, that we set and accept. Maybe I made the wrong assumptions with someone baling 150 bales a year, but I will stand with my recommendations, until I get better information for the assumptions I used.

Larry


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## E220 (Feb 10, 2016)

Here is the charge procedure attached. Just a bolt in the top and a nut on the bottom for removal. Take the top bolt out with the tailgate closed, then open the tailgate.

I find the discussion on whether to lace or replace the belts intriguing. Some points I think are being overlooked are:

1. If the belts are tracking correctly and not curled etc, a new set of belts will not last significantly longer (before needing relaced) than a properly resized and relaced set. You should get 2000-3000 bales before you need to relace unless you have a lot of rocks.

2. Overfilling the baler is one of the most damaging things for belts. If you need the biggest bale possible, then you need to replace the belts. Is a 60" vs 56" bale worth the $1,000 for you?

3. The $1,000 would probably improve the bale appearance and beat the rain storms far more if it was invested in a down payment on a new wheel rake.  But I might be trying to sell new equipment too.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Larry

You are making a lot of ASSUMPTIONS which involve ME!  I suppose you're aware of what some people including me think of assumption???????

When you've baled hay as long as I have then I think you'll have a better understanding of what I stated. Every bale of hay that passes through or has passed through my baler is important to ME. No I don't have a belt lacing tool although if I wasn't in the twilight(Near the END) of my hay baling career I would invest in a lacing tool. I do have several repaired belts in each length in my implement shed waiting to be installed in case of a belt failure. In a JAM on a JD baler one can make a decent bale of hay with one belt missing as long as it's not one of the very outside belts. BTDT

PS: In most conditions unless grass hay has been on the ground being rained on for weeks it's not ruined IF ONE GET's it DRY before baling. I'm selling some Coastal rd bales that got showered on that buyer is rolling out & re-baling in sq bales to sell to horse owners. Please don't bring up any type hay such as Alfalfa because I've never baled any of that.

Have a nice day,Jim


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