# Case baler knotter malfunctions



## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

I have a Case 8555 baler and the left knotter misses every 400-1000 bales. What it does is misses the needle (tieing problem I think) and the twine (coming from the twine box)ties into the post bale, making a three tail knot on that bale. The right side has not missed a bale for a long time. Any comments??


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Could you please photograph the knot that fails.

Do you mean that the three tails are two ends of twine with a loop sticking out from the knot? OR

Is it a knot with two tails sticking out on one twine and a broken end on the other twine?

If it is the latter;

This is caused by too much tension on the twine around the billhook when the knotter ties.

REMEDY:

Loosen the twine disc holder spring. Check if there are any rough edges on the billhook.

The twine disc holder spring is a flat spring tensioned by a set screw (I think with a 9/16 AF head) above the worm drive at the rear of the knotter.

Adjustment of this is at about 1/8th of a turn at a time, ie unscrew 1/8th turn and run the machine and see if that solves the problem, if not another 1/8th turn.


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

I will take a pic today of it when it happens. The twine misses the needle and is tied into the knot on the bale 3 or 4 bales back (causing a 3 tail knot, not a bow knot) on the ground(depending on how fast you catch it). That twine doesn't break, it just comes off the ball in the twine box through the twine guides,( not through the needle), and out the bottom of the bale chamber to the post bale 3 or 4 bales back. I cut that twine off the the 3 tail knot and pull it all back into the twine box,hundreds of feet sometimes depending on how fast I catch it. Then I rethread it through the needle, tie the dead end to the frame and let the baler go through it's cycle. Usually have to rebale around 3 to 5 bales everytime this happens.I will work with the disc holder spring tension too, thanks Garf.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

The twine cannot come out of the needle unless it breaks or there is insufficient hold by the twine disc holders.

Threading twine from the box to the needle and tying the end off allows the knotter when it cycles to feed one a loop on the needle up to have the piece come through the needle and be grasped by the twine holder and the piece tethered on the frame to be severed. Forget that piece but it is 14 inches short of a full wrap of a bale.

Now there can be a bale formed. I will call the twine end held in the twine disc by the tension of the twine disc spring "twine 1".

The twine 1 goes in frtont of and under the billhook and then passes along the top of the bale as it is being formed until the measuring wheel causes the trip arm to trip the knotter and make the needle rise up into the chamber and delivering end 2 to the same notch in the twine disc as twine 1 is being held in.

The twine finger or as some call them tucker finger moves twine 2 to the back so it is in the path of the billhook ready to be caught by it.

The twine disc turns around one notch and holds twine 2 while still holding on to twine 1.

The needle starts its way back down and gives twine 3 into the new notch on the twine disc holder which when the twine is severed by the twine knife becomes twine 1 for the next bale.

The billhook now starts to rotate and as it does the billhook beak opens to grasp both twines 1 and 2 that are lying in the first notch of the twine disc, as the billhook continues to rotate the beak closes to hold on to those two tails. the knife arm then moves toward the billhook and severs the twine and continue to pull the loop over the tails which are still being held by the billhook to form the knot. The knife arm scraper then wipes the formed knot off the billhook.

If twine holder tension is too low the twine 3 is not held and the knife arm knife cannot sever the twine leaving twine 3 attached to the newly formed knot and on the next bale there is no twine in the twine disc with which to form a knot and the twine continues to pull out of the twine box in a long trail down the field behind the baler.

It seems it may be an extreme bow knot which has some of the same causes as as knots hanging on the billhook.

Causes and remedies include:

Twine disc timing incorrect.... retime the twine disc, the notch on the twine disc should be 1/8 inch past the twine holder with twine or 5/16 past if no twine.

Not enough tension on the billhook.....tighten the billhook cam spring (1/4 iturn at a time)

Blunt twine knife.... sharpen or replace the knife.

Knife arm travel is too short.....adjust the knife arm so at the end of travel it clears the end of the billhook by 3/8 inch to 1/2 inch.

bale is too loose.......tighten bale density.

twine holder tension too low...... the opposite of what I discussed in the earlier post.

billhook roller worn or uneven....replace

billhook beak could be worn or damaged so not allowing the twine 3 to be grasped.

after that I am at a loss, a picture of a failed knot before the bale leaves the chute would be a great help.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Coondle said:


> The twine cannot come out of the needle unless it breaks or there is insufficient hold by the twine disc holders.


Oh but it can. There are several ways for the twine to come out of the eye of the needle and still be attached.

If the ball of twine is installed upside down or if the outer paper wrapper on the twine was installed upside down on the ball, thus causing you to install the ball inadverntantly upside down, the twine will come out of the needles.

If there is no twine tension at the twine box it can also happen

If when threading the baler you miss the twine guide below the needles it will also happen.

Why does it do it? When the needles come up the twine will throw a loop, especially with the twine ball upside down, so when the needles come up to the twine disc the twine that should be on the bottom side of the needles is now on top and top twine is on the bottom. What exactly happens at this point I can't remember, been too long, but you end up with the twine still attached but no longer in the eye of the needle.

I have seen both the twine put in upside down and the wrapper on the twine ball installed upside down, so it does happen. If you see loops in your twine between the twine box and the needles, the twine is in upside down.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Thanks Mike 10, Twine comes in clear plastic wrappers here, so virtually impossible to install upside down. Have not seen sisal in paper wrap for years, in fact have not seen sisal in years. Stopped using it when it hit more than twice the price of plastic which I expect this year will be close on 19 or 20 cents per bale.

The loop possibly forms at the needle point and one side is cut allowing the needle eye to leave the twine and that will explain the 3 tails, one regular tail being twine 1 and the other 2 belonging to the part of the loop cut to get the needle off the twine but twine 3 is still attached to the knot and trails down the field.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

mike10 said:


> Oh but it can. There are several ways for the twine to come out of the eye of the needle and still be attached.
> 
> If the ball of twine is installed upside down or if the outer paper wrapper on the twine was installed upside down on the ball, thus causing you to install the ball inadverntantly upside down, the twine will come out of the needles.
> 
> ...


That just blew my mind! Learn something new everyday.


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Thanks for your help Coondle and Mike 10.Soon as this little problem happens again I'll post pics. Baled 500 today and not a problem. As far as pulling off bottom or the top of a ball of twine and missing the twine guides going to the needle, that's not even the issue because I always check that. It always happens on the left knoter. I did put a different twine disc in it and timed it to what the book says, maybe that's all it needed. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for all the input. garf.


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## Orchard6 (Apr 30, 2014)

mike10 said:


> Oh but it can. There are several ways for the twine to come out of the eye of the needle and still be attached.
> 
> If the ball of twine is installed upside down or if the outer paper wrapper on the twine was installed upside down on the ball, thus causing you to install the ball inadverntantly upside down, the twine will come out of the needles.
> 
> ...


And all this time I just thought my 14t was magic! Kinda like the ol' pulling the string thru your neck trick!


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Orchard6 said:


> And all this time I just thought my 14t was magic! Kinda like the ol' pulling the string thru your neck trick!
> It sure is frustrating when it does that. Almost like it's got a personality or something. But alot of smart folks on here will get me lined out I'm sure...


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The most common cause is probably the loss on tension on the twine, either from worn tension plates or a fuzz ball temporarily caught under the tension plates. It is a common enough problem that NH has put it in operators manuals as the cause for twine getting out of the eye of the needle. I have also seen it happen when the twine is not threaded properly through the guide below the needle and also when the twine is pulling out of a ball that is upside down.


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi Folks, here's some pics of the tieing problem i 've been having with the baler. Hope you see the pics clear to see what's going on. Thanks , Garf.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I am not familiar with how the twine is stored on your baler. From the pictures it appears you have twine storage on both sides of the baler with one side feeding one needle and the other side feeding the other needle.

The only other thing I noticed, and it could be because of the angle the picture was taken, is that the lower twine guide below the needle is not in alignment with the eye of the needle. I think over the years I had one baler where the guide was not directly under the needle and the twine would come out of the needle. If the twine does not ride the groove on the front side of the needle as it is tying it will be caught up in the knot.

You have checked your twine tension, right?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I sure hope you can get your twine mishaps figured out Garf.....I just wanted to comment on your beautiful setting...it reminds me of the country going South out of Cody WY.

Regards, Mike


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi Mike and thanks for the comment. That land we're baling there right now is Fish and Game run. It's called East Fork Maintainance. They irrigate that land 20 miles up and have us come in and cut it , bale it, and get the hay outta there to sell. They do this so when the elk ,deer, etc come down out of the high country in the winter they have alot of grazzing and don't go hungry. We just started up there, will be up there for 2 - 3 weeks. I love baling up there just for that reason, so much to see, deer, elk, moose,sheep, and coyotes which I carrry a rifle on board . This is a very handy web site and alot of very helpful and friendly members. I will get this problem figured out with all the great help on HayTalk, thanks. Garf.


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi Mike10

I do have the twine tension set and have have played with it many, many, times. Got it set the same as the right. I will check the position of the twine guide. That never even crossed my mind but sure makes good sense.. Thanks, will get back to you. Garf.

PS, yes there is a twine box on each side of the baler...


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

mike10 said:


> I am not familiar with how the twine is stored on your baler. From the pictures it appears you have twine storage on both sides of the baler with one side feeding one needle and the other side feeding the other needle.
> 
> The only other thing I noticed, and it could be because of the angle the picture was taken, is that the lower twine guide below the needle is not in alignment with the eye of the needle. I think over the years I had one baler where the guide was not directly under the needle and the twine would come out of the needle. If the twine does not ride the groove on the front side of the needle as it is tying it will be caught up in the knot.
> 
> You have checked your twine tension, right?


Hi Mike 10,
That twine guide below the needle was off center about 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch, and I moved it over directly center of the needle, baled 1950 bales yesterday and didn't miss a beat!! I can't believe that something that simple was the problem and you don't know how happy I am right now! Been fighting that for 3 years and thought it was the nature of that baler.. John( the rancher I worked for) says thanks a million!!!! If your ever out this way stop in and say hi to us and maybe even plan a hunt if you like.I'll post some pics of that field I baled later. Can't see the field for the bales!!! Thanks again,, Garf


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Your welcome. Glad to have been of some help. Where in Wyoming are you located. We go out west each August and have been to Wyoming many times. My wifes grandmother and grandfather are buried in Basin. This year on vacation we are going to the southwest but in the future I may just take you up on your offer.

Mike


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

mike10 said:


> Your welcome. Glad to have been of some help. Where in Wyoming are you located. We go out west each August and have been to Wyoming many times. My wifes grandmother and grandfather are buried in Basin. This year on vacation we are going to the southwest but in the future I may just take you up on your offer.
> 
> Mike
> [
> ...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Wow, that is great that you live in Dubois.....been to the Bighorn sheep museum in Dubois with my family....I have 15 sheep points and my two sons have 14 apiece....and I wonder if I am going to be able to get drawn before I am too old. Beautiful country...love the Wind River Range and always think of that little store in Crowheart...kids were young and thought that was the coolest place. I have a item or two from some of the gallerys in Dubois....a carving and some antler art. You are blessed to live in a very conservative part of the country where most(not all of course) folks respect people and their property. I have some very treasured hunting memories in and all around Wyoming. Have the wolves ate all the Moose in your part of Wyoming yet?

Regards, Mike


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Vol said:


> Wow, that is great that you live in Dubois.....been to the Bighorn sheep museum in Dubois with my family....I have 15 sheep points and my two sons have 14 apiece....and I wonder if I am going to be able to get drawn before I am too old. Beautiful country...love the Wind River Range and always think of that little store in Crowheart...kids were young and thought that was the coolest place. I have a item or two from some of the gallerys in Dubois....a carving and some antler art. You are blessed to live in a very conservative part of the country where most(not all of course) folks respect people and their property. I have some very treasured hunting memories in and all around Wyoming. Have the wolves ate all the Moose in your part of Wyoming yet?
> 
> Regards, Mike
> The wolves are a problem around here for sure. Not so much here on the east side of the wind rivers,(other than they are running a lot of coyotes out)but over on the west side of the pass(Moran Jct) they have slaughtered a bunch of moose. My brother lives close there on the buffalo river and every winter I set up a stand down on the river and use bait from left over wolf kills. Had my sights on a black wolf for several seconds last year but couldn't pull the trigger cause that area had it's quota filled. Chet( my brother) said you should have wounded him and now wished would have. Oh well, maybe this winter..


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Hi folks,

Here's some pics of the bales I knocked out Weds and did't have one knotter problem ,1950 bales, thanks to all you folks for all the help.. Garf.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Beautiful country. It makes want to change my vacation plans.


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Vol said:


> Wow, that is great that you live in Dubois.....been to the Bighorn sheep museum in Dubois with my family....I have 15 sheep points and my two sons have 14 apiece....and I wonder if I am going to be able to get drawn before I am too old. Beautiful country...love the Wind River Range and always think of that little store in Crowheart...kids were young and thought that was the coolest place. I have a item or two from some of the gallerys in Dubois....a carving and some antler art. You are blessed to live in a very conservative part of the country where most(not all of course) folks respect people and their property. I have some very treasured hunting memories in and all around Wyoming. Have the wolves ate all the Moose in your part of Wyoming yet?
> 
> Regards, Mike


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

F-ing things are are making a mess but you know what? They will get back down to standards, guaranteed!


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

Well you folks helped me with one knotter problem, now another one started yesterday. The twine gets wrapped around the billhook sometimes. When it does that, the tails on the knot get short and the knot comes apart. I looked in the manual for this problem but not to be found. It's a case 8555 inline baler if that helps. Any ideas out there?? Garf.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Picture of how the twine wraps around the billhook?


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## Garf (Jul 6, 2014)

mike10 said:


> Picture of how the twine wraps around the billhook?


If or when it happens again, I will post a pic. Thanks Mike...


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