# Sugar content in hay



## tnwalkingred (Jun 8, 2010)

All,

I have a hay customer who informed me last night that she may not be buying any orchard grass hay from me thi syear because she has a mare that has developed laminitis and that she thinks that orchard grass has too much sugar in it. she also stated that some second cutting orchard grass might be ok because it would have less sugar in it than the first cutting. I always thought the sugar content would be directly related to what stage the grass was cut in and less about when it was cut? What are y'alls thoughts on this? Thanks in advance for any helpful information.

--Kyle

PS- The test I had done on the hay last year didn't list a sugar content. It was a basic test with only protein and TDN values in it.


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## mncattle (Jul 23, 2010)

I could be wrong but I think the first cut of hay is usually the poorest in nutrients and feed value. At least in alfalfa. It seems to me that the later cut hay has more sugars in it. You are right to a point in that it also depends on at what stage to cut it in. Cut it real early in growth is richer than cutting it after the seed heads have emerged. But I do think first cutting is usally the poor hay more what she would be looking for. 1st cutting hay usally is growing real fast in the early part of the growing season and does not have the nutrients that hay has later in the year.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

All goes back to nutrition. A nag for a pleasure horse doesn't need good orchardgrass or alfalfa hay or grain. A good "CRP"hay will provide all she needs and prevent laminitis.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Depends on when its made, early made first cutting can actually be some of the higher testing hay. Has to be made early though and properly fertilized.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Laminitis in the spring is also called "grass founder". Horses can founder in the early spring when they go from stored, low protein, poor quality hay to lush springtime growth.

Orchardgrass baled at the proper time, when the seed head is in late boot stage, should be OK. It will have a good balance between the leaves, where the sugars are mostly stored, and the stems.

My first cutting OG will typically run about 11% CP. Second cutting will be leafy but doesn't have the higher sugar content. But second cutting "looks" better.

Most of the time, grass founder is caused by over-feeding, under-utilizing the horse--they just don't burn up the calories!

IMO, most horses do better on lesser quality feed, but more of it. Most horse owners anthropomorphize their horse way too much.

Just my thoughts.

Ralph


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Could not agree more Ralph.

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

She needs to sell that horse. It would benefit them both.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Sugar in hay.
We have the AM & PM effect and the nonstructural carbohydrates deal. .
just after sunrise is as low as the "sugar" content will be all day. I figure my hay at 3 PM the sugar content will be 4% higher. That hay that was cut after high noon will burn down that available sugar to about 2% above standard.
Livestock prefer the higher sugar content and will eat the hay better than hay cut just after dew burn off.

Then we have non structural carbohydrates. The higher the percentage the higher the energy of the hay. So for your customer with a problem manage enough hay to fill her needs to have the highest lignen and the least carbs as possible. Cut very mature grass hay early in the morning. Do not treat it like prime hay, as that is not your goal.

NOW for a horse that wants to Founder you want as much structural carbohydrates as possible. Hay made after the plant goes to seed will have lots of lignin and as little starch & sugar as you will ever find.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I vote we have a "Hay Talk" convention somewhere warm this winter and Hay Wilson in TX is keynote speaker. 
Hay Wilson, your knowledge is mind boggling. I wish I had 10% of your knowledge!!


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Dad still has three of his ex girlfriends horses on the farm (figure that one out







) if she had her way from overfeeding they'd be dead or the local vet would be like family by now, Dad feeds them 1st cutting round bales that were made dead last. _No health problems as of yet._


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Jd3430, I like the way the way you think, Florida or Texas might be a nice location. I want to thank all of those that make this site possible and those that contribute with all of there knowledgeable, helpful, and friendly advise. It has truly helped make me be a better farmer.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Dad still has three of his ex girlfriends horses on the farm (figure that one out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Three ex girlfriends! Very impressed lol...No i understand I still carry my exwife's nag...oh now she's bought another for me!


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Nitram said:


> Three ex girlfriends! Very impressed lol...No i understand I still carry my exwife's nag...oh now she's bought another for me!


HUH...um...his ex girlfriends three horses.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Geejs--I was more impressed when it was 3 ex-girlfriends! What a man!

Ralph


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> Geejs--I was more impressed when it was 3 ex-girlfriends! What a man!
> 
> Ralph


Not really, you need to meet my one uncle, you have to Google his ex girlfriends to keep track of em.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Not really, you need to meet my one uncle, you have to Google his ex girlfriends to keep track of em.


Ok, so after Hay Wilson in TX gives us his keynote speech on hay, your uncle follows up with speech on how to juggle a harem of chicks and get them to live on your farm!!!


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## enos (Dec 6, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> Geejs--I was more impressed when it was 3 ex-girlfriends! What a man!
> 
> Ralph


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## enos (Dec 6, 2009)

Wise old man told me years ago" If you meet a woman with a horse......walk away"


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## tnwalkingred (Jun 8, 2010)

All,

Thanks for the tips. I have a newly planted field that I intended to let to go to seed before cutting the first time anyways. I'll talk to her and see if she wants the hay off that field. I knew I could rely on you guys for some great information.

--Kyle


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## dbergh (Jun 3, 2010)

I had one customer tell me the same thing last season. Must be something going around the horse world about high sugars and founder. I believe it has far more to do with the feeding habits than the feed. The vast majority of my horse customers absolutely love our Alf./OG blend and won't feed anything else.
As for a conference, I am for going anywhere that is warmer than home







. Weather here is about ready to drive us over the edge. Frost and/or hard freezes 12 of the last 14 nights. Needless to say alfalfa is not happy at this point.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I don't know how you do it. I can't stand the cold anymore. It doesn't get above 50 here consistently until mid April and by then I'm so sick of the cold.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

My wife's one horse as foundered twice on us, one was our fault where he got to the grain bin and kept eating, and other time was just to much lush grass. Once a horse founders it's very tough and a pain in the the butt. I just field a lot of my grass hay, i find it hard to believe that any O grass no matter when it's cut and baled would affect a foundering horse, my then again i'm just basing off the little i know with ours. I would come to think and bet that ladies horse is just eating to much lush green grass. When ours go to pasture this time of year we will pen them in the barn yard for a few days and put on a 1st cut hay, they need that dry matter in them, from my understandings.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

A reluctant authority on foundering is Katy Watts in the Liberal state of Colorado. [email protected]

She has or at least had two horses that would founder, Mare and Colt.

As she explained it to me these horses have a reverse diabetes. They have enough insulin to process sugar but when the animal eats anything with high carbohydrates they get a flush of insulin.
This insulin causes the blood vessels to contract. They contract first in the extremities i.e. hooves. This is as painful as having a arm or leg fall to sleep on us. Eventually the blood is cut off long enough for the hooves to die and fall off. Now you have a real problem.

Her routine was or is to turn all her horses out on pasture in the morning and sit and drink a cup of coffee and watch them eat. When the coffee cup is empty the colt goes to the corral. Next she goes in and dresses for her job in town. When dressed the mare also goes into the corral.
Where she is at they combine range grasses for the seed. They bale that straw for her two horses.

The advise to put down any horse that founders is good, to stop them from breeding. Probably need to put down both parents of that animal also. Get rid of the blood line.

But what do I know? I am just a hay farmer.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hay wilson in TX said:


> The advise to put down any horse that founders is good, to stop them from breeding. Probably need to put down both parents of that animal also. Get rid of the blood line.
> 
> But what do I know? I am just a hay farmer.


Is that the four or two legged _parents_ of the horse?

After dealing with some of them I could go either way.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

All of the above just to be sure?


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

You guys are to funny.


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## southwind (Mar 25, 2012)

enos said:


> Wise old man told me years ago" If you meet a woman with a horse......walk away"


I missed that memo. I married one . 39 years later, 5 houses, 3 kids, 18 dogs, 22 horses, 1 donkey, 4 cows, 30 chickens, 3 pigs. OMG...... All of a sudden I feel tired.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

southwind said:


> I missed that memo. I married one . 39 years later, 5 houses, 3 kids, 18 dogs, 22 horses, 1 donkey, 4 cows, 30 chickens, 3 pigs. OMG...... All of a sudden I feel tired.


I feel your pain---5 houses, 5 kids, 18 horses (15 current), 7 dogs, 8 cats, 28 cattle, 4 guinea pigs, 1 parakeet. I think I liked the parakeet best of all -- he and I have some very intelligent conversations.

Ralph


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## hay king (Feb 6, 2011)

low sugar hay I hear that all the time. hears what it sounds like from the horse person ( I NEED some low sugar hay for my horse it has to be green and fine not to many stems. Not gone to seed no junk.) hmmm... now how i hear it

( my horse foundered because I lock it in a stall at a stable all day and feed rich it feed, that goes straight to its feet. I ride once a week and not very hard. I don't know how to read a hay test, but I heard from a friend or online that horses need low sugar hay. I don't know anything about making hay or how to grow grass or the stages of grass eg boot,headed or seed stage) Hmmmm..

If you look at where horses come from the plains. They are used to eating dry bunch grasses and traveling allot. they did not come from where the grass is super green and really thick or super rich. I you look a a horses dung it is barely broken down still looks like grass some what. Horses need fiber lots of it. They need lower quality hays but not moldy.

Around hear we make allot of dairy feed and it need to be rich to up milk production. feeding it to horses would be a bad idea. But that the hay they the owners seem to like the looks of.

I give up you try to help them and show them the test results and they don't believe you or don't listen so you sell them the hay they like and want because they don't like the looks of the hay with low sugar (its headed out or gone to seed they say.) even with the test results in there hand they still want the super green rich soft good hay. so you sell it to them. Time goes by .......... and they phone you back and tell you that your hay made there horse sick and its your fault it foundered. Some even want you to pay the vet bills..... ya ok not happening... Theirs no way its there fault for over feeding, under exercising, or just plain not thinking.

some not all horse people drive my NUTS, BONKERS, INSANE. Some are ok they listen they take a test result and read it they ask what it means and how it works.

any how check out my webpage @ Http:/www.highlandhay.weebly.com and look under test results it helps alot and anybody that comes to buy hay from me can get a paper copy to take and read it so they can learn whats what


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