# Hay, 1 year later...



## GNA_farm (Jul 21, 2014)

OK, not sure if this should go here or market talk but here we go. I just had a lady I sold 200 small squares to last August call me (almost 1 year to the date I delivered), she comes up with some of the bales I sold her had clumps of mud/sand in the middle, she fed the bales to her "$125,000 stallion" and he coliced and almost died, huge vet bills and so on and so forth so she said. I sold her 200 bales, she has 90 left, all other hay I sold from that and every other run last year were fed with no issue that I heard about (multiple repeat customers). She feeds 30 horses so I can't imagine 200 bales would last that long around there... So anyway, she says she wants me to come pick up the 90 bales and replace the leftovers and the 100 bales that were already fed with new hay or the alternative is to go to court where she has an "equine lawyer" who assures her she could get hay paid for as well as the astronomical vet bills, etc...

I have not been selling hay for long, but have been around it for a while, have never had this come up. I asked her why she continued feeding the bales if they were dirty or why she didn't call me when she saw the issue, she claimed she lost my number (found me on craigslist and I had hay listed on craigslist until January)... I offered to deliver 2 - 800 lb big rounds and she can keep the hay to do with how she sees fit to try to smooth it over with minimal fuss just because I don't need some scammer giving me a bad reputation. She says no, she's buying 1200 lb big rounds for $50 so it would take at least that calculation to make up the $1000 check she wrote me.

Anyone with experience in a situation like this? I told her I would have gladly investigated it last year had I been made aware, I have no idea how much hay has gone through there the last year so no real idea if it's even my hay.

Sorry for rambling, I just got the call about an hour ago and my blood pressure is through the roof, just trying to wrap my head around a claim like this.

Thanks for reading the rant and for any advice you may be able to provide


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'd blow her off. Under the law, people have a responsibility to mitigate their damages and clearly she did not. Who knows if she even has damages.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Take a look at what ahe claims is your "problematic" hay. What color/type of twine do you use? Length of bales. Guessing it isn't going to match. Take pictures and make notes. She is probably doing this to all her suppliers. Looks like another one for the "horsey" thread... Good luck.


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## ANewman (Sep 20, 2012)

If you've already tried to resolve the situation then I'd tell her "see you in court then"


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Sounds like she is out of money and is trying to get some free hay off of you. The 90 bales she is wanting you to exchange might be some junk hay she got somewhere else. If you wanted to try to smooth things over the first thing I would do is take a look at the hay and see if it is even yours. Even if it is your hay if it were me personally I wouldn't do anything about it since it been a year and she had plenty of time to get ahold of you since then. Threatening to take you to court is likely a scare tactic and my response would be my lawyers are ready. Only you know what is best for situation though.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

If she has 30 horses she had to have bought other hay. Especially if she 90 left. And one year is just to long.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

My thought is 1) prove it's my hay. 2) Even if you could (which she can't), why did you feed such crappy hay. 3) You will not tolerate any defaming of your hay business and are prepared to sue her pants off if she brings harm to your reputation in any way.

Good luck,
Bill


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

Tell her it is out of warranty. :lol:


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

ANewman said:


> If you've already tried to resolve the situation then I'd tell her "see you in court then"


This will make her run away like a scalded dog. Her claim is ridiculous.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Go look at the 90 bales first to see if they actually are yours....if they are not, take pictures while there and then tell her your getting a attorney and that she has wrongly accused you and threatened you. Most likely that will be the end of the situation.

Regards, Mike


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

Plead the 5th. Gather Intel. Don't commit to anything. Ignore any threating letters from "her lawyer." In other words don't respond. If you want to spend money, consult a good attorney for advice. Ask what the statue of limitation is. If she had the problem like she says costing her a few green backs and colic horse she would have come after you a lot sooner. Burden of proof is on her.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

She is nuts.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I am no lawyer but I would not treat this casually. She is nuts but so is Donald Trump. There are so many holes in her claim that it is hard to treat it seriously. She says it is yours, how does she prove it. Like others pointed out, if she is feeding that many animals, she is going through a lot of hay during the winter and how did she manage to keep yours isolated. She would not have done so and this is a frivolous claim. like others stated, she had an obligation to cease and desist feeding if she knew it was wrong and she should have contacted you then. Did she have your invoice? All and all, the burden of proof on her seems steep but I would not ignore it. I would consult with an attorney before I went to look at the hay. I think it is a fools errand. jmtcw


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## GNA_farm (Jul 21, 2014)

Thanks for the replies, I think I'm just going to blow it off unless contacted again (don't want to initiate contact), at which point I'll reiterate the fact that I was not contacted when the issue arose and therefore have no idea after this much time whether the hay even came from me. She claimed that she had another load coming this weekend so my guess is that she can't afford the new load and wants me to ultimately pay for it and get some extra free hay as well.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I know the feeling your having,got a letter from a insurance company representing a feed store 5 hours away from me. I had sold truck load to a broker who was aware of the mite problem in the area. They had a claim about mites in the hay that causes skin to itch,my hay can have them.The good thing was the insurance company was the same one my liability was written with. Called my agent to talk to the others and the last I heard of it,thankfully.

With the amount of horses and all she has had some money,even if not her's.So she could have a blood sucking lawyer hoping for some crumbs from all parties,so I think you need take it seriously.I don't know were you would look other than ask other hay sellers she may us this scheme all the time.I wish you good luck in proving it is not your hay.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Ray 54 said:


> I know the feeling your having,got a letter from a insurance company representing a feed store 5 hours away from me. I had sold truck load to a broker who was aware of the mite problem in the area. They had a claim about mites in the hay that causes skin to itch,my hay can have them.The good thing was the insurance company was the same one my liability was written with. Called my agent to talk to the others and the last I heard of it,thankfully.
> 
> With the amount of horses and all she has had some money,even if not her's.So she could have a blood sucking lawyer hoping for some crumbs from all parties,so I think you need take it seriously.I don't know were you would look other than ask other hay sellers she may us this scheme all the time.I wish you good luck in proving it is not your hay.


Shouldn't they be contacting the broker rather then you?


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## siscofarms (Nov 23, 2010)

Had this situation a few years ago . And is why I have signs in the barns and on my receipts that the buyer is responsible for inspecting the hay as it leaves my barn and its sold as is . I don't deliver hay any more . If they want hay delivered I have a guy who does that . He is actually buying it and understands the rules apply to him also . The original situation happened along time ago , atleast 20 yrs ago , and it was over a pick up load of alfalfa , about 30 bales . Nothing ever came of it , basically they over fed a horse with fresh hay . FRESH ! coliced up , did not die but changed the way I do things . Not sure if the signs and stuff have any legal leg anymore . I sell lots of hay and , as far as I know anyway , have a good reputation and have never had another issue like that . But it can all change with a mouth full of hay .


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## Bishop (Apr 6, 2015)

Immediately sit down and gather all paperwork you have related to this sale.

Make extensive notes about all conversations you have had with this person, including time and date.

Go and inspect the hay and take pictures if you think it isn't yours.

Gather notes from other people who have bought the same run of hay and liked it.

If it does go to court, the person with the most stuff on paper will most likely win.

Note: If it does go to court, your time and money may have been better spent on just giving her 200 bales of hay. I know this would suck, but if you have any doubt about winning this, sometimes in the case of lawsuits it is better to just settle early. Get in writing that she forgoes any further lawsuits if you agree to this.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

The advice about collecting all records and making accurate notes about all contact is good, very good. Make notes about all other sales of the same hay production run.

Smart lawyers do not win cases, GOOD EVIDENCE is what wins cases.

Smart lawyers make the best use of whatever evidence is available.

If it comes to a court threat or even a case, demand a full varietal test (type and percentage) of the hay alleged to have caused the problem. The varieties of grasses in the alleged problematic hay may well not match your hay.

Furthermore, samples of the mud and sand can be analysed and shown to be either from your place or not at all possible to be yours.

I have baled a lot of idiot cubes and have managed to get some rocks tied up in the bales BUT I have never managed to get sand entrapped in a bale. My baler pickup spring fingers seem incapable of picking sand up, the very design prevents it.

Do you have liability insurance. I know there are many differences between jurisdictions but insurance companies will insure almost any risk for a fee. Every jurisdiction will have insurance policies available to cover many aspects of liability likely to be incurred in running a business. I have insurance to cover risks arising from my farming business e.g. idiots coming on property and getting hurt, claims arising from my hay, limited cover for damage caused by overspray.

Too late for this particular issue, but insurance takes the worry but not all of the pain out of claims. Of course there is a little financial pain every year when the renewal has to be paid.

Get on the front foot with this one. No further direct contact with the woman.

Consult a lawyer, give full outline and requst the lawyer write to the woman denying all liability.

With the lawyer in the picture the woman has to direct any further contact to the lawyer. Might cost a bit, but will show you are serious about contesting her claim and make her think twice about a bruising showdown.


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

burn down her barn and destroy all evidence that she ever bought hay


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Hokelund Farm said:


> burn down her barn and destroy all evidence that she ever bought hay


That would actually happen down here. If a person was caught trying to scam, everything would be peaches and cream on the out side. Then there would be a "house warming". Everyone would know what happened and no one would say a word.

I am not condoning the action. Simply stating the process of escalation.


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

GNA farm, I feel your pain as I went through something similar when I first started shipping hay to Florida. Luckily I was able to work out a deal with the customer and haven't heard anything since (that was back in 2009 and I still am a little nervous about getting an email or phone call from her). Make sure you keep a record of everything and don't just trust your computer to save files... have at least one backup copy of everything.

If you have a local lawyer that you feel comfortable with, you might just stop by and have a quick conversation with them and see what they think. It doesn't have to be a detailed review of everything, but a quick conversation over a cup of coffee might give you some direction. The couple of local lawyers near me are usually happy to have a little chat with you for no charge. I would also check with other hay suppliers in the area and see if they have run into similar issues like this in the past, either with this particular customer or with others and get their advise on how to handle it. If anything, you might save them the same trouble down the road.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

I had issues with two customers in the past, the most recent this year.

The first one collected hay from the paddock and is a reseller located about 110 miles away.

Got a call the hay was wet and mouldy. He had collected about 100 bales and had almost all left.

Jumped into pickup and tandem trailer and went and inspected the hay. Yes it was wet, very wet.

Loaded the lot up and gave a full refund and a very clear invitation to never come near me again.

He had a chaffing set up and to cut chaff the conventional approach is to gently steam the hay to prevent shatter of the stalks/leaves as the chaff cutter blades sever small slices. The hot steam in our dry climate soon dries. Cheapskate way is to lightly dampen the hay to achieve the toughening up that prevents shatter.

This cheapskate had been sourcing hay out of our very arid east and that hay would have been sub 10% moisture by the time he got it. So a little damping would cause no issue. Freshly baled hay at 16 or 17 % however will not tolerate any additional damping. He had wet not just lightly damped high moisture hay and reaped the consequences that I then swallowed and took prime horse hay down to sheep and cow hay.

Second one this year called about a month or so after a small delivery, claiming my hay had itch mite also known as hay mite in it and had infested her premises and harmed her and her goats.

In a miracle of biblical proportions I held back on initial my responses and investigated closely, knowing full well that my hay did not have itch mite present.

Itch mite are minute bloodsucking predators of soft bodied insect larvae such as weevils, grain moths and pantry moths to name a few. They are about 1/125 of an inch long spread on air currents, lay about 300 or so eggs every 2 weeks, love humid conditions, the young at birth are already with their first lot of eggs and fully developed females may grow to about 1/12 inch long and are literally egg factories. Can't survive on mammals but do their best to get moisture by sucking mammal blood.

Turns out she bought wheat pollard infested with grain moths or pantry moths and reported seeing web structures in the pollard. These webs are the moth larvae silks used in pupa stage.

After 2 weeks perseverance, an apology was given, the apology accepted but never any more hay to that one! NOT EVER.

I have noted that some have said hay mites are a problem for them. Other hay producers/ users around me have also reported problems. My hay shed has two colonies of meat ant (_Iridomyrmex purpureus_) present which predate on the hay mites and on the hay mite's food sources. Inconvenience of the meat ants is tolerated because of the benefits they bring.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Many years ago back in the square baling days we sold 200 nice Bermuda squares to a cousin's other grandfather. We delivered and only charged him field price. He called 2 weeks later and said the hay was dusty and wanted a refund. The hay looked and smelled fine so I called a guy who needed horse hay. He came to the guys barn and together we hauled it to his place.

The old man was there when the guy bought the hay and paid me 50 cents more a bale than he had paid. The old cuss huffed up and wanted the extra 50 cents we charged for the hay.

Found out later that the old man had bought hay planning to partner on some cattle. The partner backed out and he was left with the hay. It would have been better if he had been up front to begin with.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

To answer Teslan's question the paper work showed it had 2 or 3 brokers that had made money on my hay without ever seeing my hay. It has not made me want to sell hay to brokers since. I questioned with that many people between me and feed store was it my hay.The broke I sold to dose not store hay so I guess it went from my stack direct to feed store. This is the trouble one gets with trying to get top dollar from the horse hay market with the other problems that have been discussed many times here.

Who knows what mite of happened if my insurance had not been the same company as the feed store had. And I didn't want to wake sleeping dogs so never asked my agent to find out what happened to the case.

I don't know if the same bug as Coondle is talking about but very similar.They are only active above 70 F and once the season cools they are done. Any hay still in the barn in spring has never had them come back and bite me. But from the women's complaint she must have roiled around in the hay. Back in the day when trucks where loaded one bale at a time the truckers would spray themselves down in mosquito repellent. When loading my pickup to feed I would us a wet rag with water that was less than 70 degrees on skin that had rubbed against hay,with good results. Oats is the grass they like the most as well.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Ray 54 said:


> To answer Teslan's question the paper work showed it had 2 or 3 brokers that had made money on my hay without ever seeing my hay. It has not made me want to sell hay to brokers since. I questioned with that many people between me and feed store was it my hay.The broke I sold to dose not store hay so I guess it went from my stack direct to feed store. This is the trouble one gets with trying to get top dollar from the horse hay market with the other problems that have been discussed many times here.
> 
> Who knows what mite of happened if my insurance had not been the same company as the feed store had. And I didn't want to wake sleeping dogs so never asked my agent to find out what happened to the case.
> 
> I don't know if the same bug as Coondle is talking about but very similar.They are only active above 70 F and once the season cools they are done. Any hay still in the barn in spring has never had them come back and bite me. But from the women's complaint she must have roiled around in the hay. Back in the day when trucks where loaded one bale at a time the truckers would spray themselves down in mosquito repellent. When loading my pickup to feed I would us a wet rag with water that was less than 70 degrees on skin that had rubbed against hay,with good results. Oats is the grass they like the most as well.


I'm still wondering with as many as 2-3 brokers between you and the final customer (feed store) why again did the complaint come back to you? If the first broker who bought it knew there were mites in it then sold it on maybe or maybe not disclosing the mites. It's that brokers responsibility not yours? If the feed store insurance or owner called me to say the hay was bad I would tell them I never sold them any hay. And honestly I probably wouldn't even know who they were as I don't know who brokers sell too. In my mind that's one of the things that brokers should make money on. They need to have some risk.

I don't mind selling to brokers. So long as they tell me they are brokers. I've rarely sold to feed stores because they always want bottom prices for top notch hay then jack the price up so far to the suckers that buy from them. Plus they never want to buy larger quantities and want it delivered just a few at a time because they don't have the space for that many.

You never can get top dollar from selling to brokers or feed stores. At least in my area.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Hay mites, straw itch mites, whatever the common name are all in the family Pyemotes and have virtually a worldwide distribution.

They are primarily predators of the larvae caterpillars etc of weevils, moths and the like but can live in stored grain or hay where their hosts also hang out.

Alfalfa hay does not support the mite's hosts (no grain) but may have the litle critters move in if stored next to infested hay/straw.

Similarly other grassy hay if it does not have grain type seeds present to support mite hosts will not be likely to have the mites.

Here wheaten hay is cut before the grain forms so is also not a mite heaven.

Oaten hay however is cut at the watery ripe stage of grain formation and can thus have immature grains formed which can support mite hosts and therefore house mites also.

The mites can be found in houses if grain products such as breakfast cereals, or flour for example have a population of pantry moths. Pantry moth larvae a polite term for maggots are a favourite target for the mites.

The mites try and feed/get moisture off a person or animal, find out that the new host is not for their taste, fall off and the victim usually has an allergic reaction to the mite's anticoagulant injected with the bite. Severe itching, swelling and red lumps are likely but when they appear the little critter has most likely dropped off never to be seen.

Annoying and painful but there are few successful treatments for the mites, better and easier to control the host insects, or wait until temp falls below their activity range.


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## GNA_farm (Jul 21, 2014)

Well, it's been a week and no additional contact from her after the initial phone call. I'm guessing she contacted her "equine attorney" again and was told good luck... I guess I'll see if anything else comes up but so far so good... Was talking to my dad (4 generations of the same name and all of us seem to be lighting rods for lawsuits)about it last week and after I told him she claimed to have lost my number last year he told me to tell her to lose it again, maybe she did. Oh well, hopefully I'm not jinxing myself but I'm guessing she'll just go away and I'll never sell to her again, I'm thinking maybe just stay off the interstate altogether...


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## JMT (Aug 10, 2013)

Hopefully that's the end of it. But don't be surprised if she shows up acting like your best friend and like nothing has happened when she needs some hay.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

I had something like this happen a few years ago. Horsey ate some nettles or some crap, horsey died, lady came back to me with the last 5 bales and demands a refund. Told her that's not my hay. She swears up and down its the stuff I sold her on such and such day. Said its not my hay. She was going to sue me for the damages and make name worthless for selling hay. Whatever.

The background to this is on any hay I plan on selling, I put 2 different color twines on. Yellow and green sisal and now orange and blue plastic. Always mark it down what color combo came from where. Kind of a pain but it's an effective system when dealing with stupid...


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## TreeHogger (Jun 23, 2015)

Hayman1 said:


> I am no lawyer but I would not treat this casually. She is nuts but so is Donald Trump. There are so many holes in her claim that it is hard to treat it seriously. She says it is yours, how does she prove it. Like others pointed out, if she is feeding that many animals, she is going through a lot of hay during the winter and how did she manage to keep yours isolated. She would not have done so and this is a frivolous claim. like others stated, she had an obligation to cease and desist feeding if she knew it was wrong and she should have contacted you then. Did she have your invoice? All and all, the burden of proof on her seems steep but I would not ignore it. I would consult with an attorney before I went to look at the hay. I think it is a fools errand. jmtcw


If she calls back, document everything she sez, admit to nothing (be vauge), and definelty do not sell anymore to her, or anyone she is close to!! (I wouldn't go over there to 'view' to see if you recognize the bales either, as this is just giving her hope...)

People. Uggh.


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