# Hay Fire



## Hacman61 (Sep 15, 2012)

I am an Insurance Broker and have a few questions.
1. Hay Cut on June 5, Baled On June 11 with a moisture content of 10%.
2. Stacked after baled
3. Rained on Stack on June 25
4.Delivered to Buyer on June 30
5. Is it possible for Hay to Catch Fire in Stack from Combustion 30 days later? July 30?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Very unlikey....I have never heard of a fire from low moisture baled hay...10% is very low moisture....How much rain fell on the stack 20 days after baling?

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Yes it's possible. Another insurance company trying to weasel out of paying a claim or a customer that is trying to screw the insurance company, you make the call. Maybe we should put up a post for this......survey says....


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

_Yes it is possible.The hay was rained on and restacked so a wet spot could be in side the stack after being moved and restacked.One small wet spot could cause the fire.Just like having 1 wet bale starting a barn fire.It only takes 1 spot!!!_

_The fact the hay is 10% is irrelivent._


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## terraceridge (Jul 21, 2011)

How much rain fell on it?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Yes, it could catch on fire. Several scenarios come to mind:

1. Baled at 10% moisture (which is pretty dry!) where it was tested, but other sections were high moisture. Moist area overheated, causing the dry areas to catch on fire.

2. Moisture was not tested correctly.

3. Rain soaked through the stack deep enough to cause reheating. Especially is inner core was really, really dry.

4. Buyer restacked with wet hay on inside of stack, drier hay outside of stack.

5. Buyer restacked on wet surface.

6. Buyer's roof leaked causing a wet spot in the stack.

But if you're trying to assign responsibility for the fire, it'll be practically impossible. Both, or either, parties could have screwed up. And its real easy with hay!

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

The time from when the hay was moved to when it started on fire is questionable to me. 30 days? There is to many variables with everything else.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

Sounds like a bad combination to me. Hay was very dry initially, then got moisture introduced to some bales, then the pile got shuffled. There could have been damp, heating hay beside nice tinder dry hay. In the end, it will be nearly impossible to be sure what really happened.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Oh yeah!

June 11th to July 30th is more than 30 days--49 by my calendar--in which case, the hay would have gone through its initial sweat. The initial sweat usually peaks about 15-21 days after baling.

When did it get rained on? Who had possession when it got rained on?

Ralph


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

It was 30 days from when it was moved until it caught fire. But one would think that if it had caught fire someone would have felt a warm bale when it was delivered.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I am assuming we are discussing square bales. Need to make sure we are all on the same page. 
I am also assuming the hay was originally stacked outside since it got wet.

Just going by the information provided and not reading anything else into it, No, it was not spontaneous combustion.

The hay had been in the original stack long enough to have shown signs of a problem after the rain. 
The hay had to be handled twice after leaving the original stack. Issues would have been visible then. You would see it, smell it or feel it.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Hacman61 You opened this can of worms, please let us know how the insurance company handles this in the end. In regard to your question Yes, it's possible and i agree with Teslan


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> The hay had been in the original stack long enough to have shown signs of a problem after the rain.
> The hay had to be handled twice after leaving the original stack. Issues would have been visible then. You would see it, smell it or feel it.


Though sometimes people handling hay don't know anything or don't care.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

It wouldn't have been really bad yet when moved depending on the air temperatures, the time line is about right.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

What part of the country was this in and where was it moved too? Just curious about humidity levels. If hay was stacked outside I Wud guess its in the west somewhere. Hand stacked on edge with stacker or hand stacked on string side? Grass or alfalfa? Some questions may be irrelevant, just curious.

But seems it has to be from rain. Also that hay laid on the ground almost a week, it shud have been plenty dry one Wud think. Its gotta be from the restack, either the rain or stacked bad location. Seems to be human error due to lack of knowledge about hay. Or total opposite, they know a lot about hay, hence why it caught fire.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

It's possible....but I would look at everything, client didn't mention two kids with firecrackers were seen milling round the barn did he? Just saying......been there, done that. Without more evidence you'll have a hard time proving this case, but if I had to make a intelligent assumption I would say no, but given that rain event......(never said how much) possible.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

What's the concensus on how many days hay needs to sweat out before it's "safe"?
I have round bales with some spots that read 25%. They never went above ambient air temperature since they were bales over 30 days ago.

I can't understand this moisture/heat issue. It seems like I've had bales that were up to 30% moisture and they never got hot. I had a few go to 105-110*, but that's about it and they usually do it in the first few days. Then they seem to stay at air temperature from there on out.

This crap scares the snot out of me. I have hay stacked in million dollar barns.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol....do everything this guy did but dont let it get rained on and you won't have a problem, and don't let kids play with firecrackers, people smoke, no thunderstorms with lightning, internal combustion engines, oily rags in a can....... Coulda been anything, prolly wasn't the hay, but hey people have a way of not owning up to their mistakes nowadays, rather lie....sad


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

I've never understood this "sweat" of hay that you folks mention from time to time.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

My best guess is the period after baling where you let the hay "sweat", not unlike when a person with a fever sweats, Their temperature rises and they sweat, then their fever breaks and the stop sweating their temp goes to normal, The bales temp rises, the bales fever breaks, and its' temp goes to normal, matching ambient air temps, Thats my take on sweating hay


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Hay at 27% moisture is most flamable but additional conditions are necesary to. As jd3430 points out as you bale windrows with varying moisture as you roll up a bale and I believe that is why hay will "sweat". It is possible that this is a combustion fire moreso with square bales. You don't say how much rain fell on it either. Because of the number of days though I have my doubts. Mel


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Waterway64 said:


> Hay at 27% moisture is most flamable but additional conditions are necesary to. As jd3430 points out as you bale windrows with varying moisture as you roll up a bale and I believe that is why hay will "sweat". It is possible that this is a combustion fire moreso with square bales. You don't say how much rain fell on it either. Because of the number of days though I have my doubts. Mel


OK so hay at 27% is most flammable as you say, but what if it was baled 4-5 weeks ago and has been sitting outside in a3 sided barn or under a tarp, You think even after that long it could still ignite?
What other conditions must be met? These have air circulation stacked on a concrete floor in a 3 sided barn with no chance of rain getting on them


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

_Question for original poster? Hacman61_

_Back to the point that the guy has insurance on it.I would think it should be covered if spontaneous combustion,kds with fire crackers,someone driving by with a cigerrette,bad wiring,lightening or whatever.So whats is the angle with the adjuster?Just trying to determine the cause or trying to get out of paying the claim._


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

09 was a dry year for us, while I was out of town we had around 1000 squares brought in. This hay was baled in late October and came straight to my barn out of the field. This hay wasn't even close to being dry. I found one bale so bad that it grew a new runner come out of it! Yeah I hear ya, holy crap, WTF and all the above. It was bad. Not sure on moisture content, but most of the rest of the hay had so much fur growing on it probly cud have survived an arctic winter, lol. Hay did not catch fire and stayed in barn. We were going into winter tho, so I'm sure that helped.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

*If you have a bale that reads 25-35% in one or 2 spots, but reads below 15% in all other spots, how long does that bale need to sit or sweat until it can be stored safely? *


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> *If you have a bale that reads 25-35% in one or 2 spots, but reads below 15% in all other spots, how long does that bale need to sit or sweat until it can be stored safely? *


Probably the only sure way would be to use a temp probe on some of the wetter bales.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So how long should one keep checking temps until you can say the bale(s) is safe to store away long term?


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I really doubt it. stack rained on is much different then anearobic heat production causing spontaneous combustion. Every time there is a barn fire it is always blamed on the hay.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Better be careful what you say. Might end up in court as an expert witness. Broker has not answered any questions.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

*Insurance companies like to find reasons not to pay. *

There is a saying that there is no difference between the unfortunate and the incompetent, the results are the same.

Makes no difference if a wet slug was stacked deep away from cooling air on purpose or by accident the result was a fire.

*What has the Fire Marshall said? If the Fire Marshall finds it accidental pay the man. *

If the farmer thought he had coverage and turns out he didn't he should change companies. 
Probably should refund the premium? All the premiums ever paid to the company over the years.
Insurance companies can be very short sighted.


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## urednecku (Oct 18, 2010)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Better be careful what you say. Might end up in court as an expert witness. Broker has not answered any questions.


Makes ya wonder, don't it? He made 1 post, & has not been back on here?

"Active Posts 1 Member Since 15-September 12 Last Active Offline Sep 15 2012 04:53 AM"


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

He could be following this as a guest, not logged on.

Being that we are all hay baling farmers here I doubt he will be back to hash it out. his best bet is to get us debating circumstances, conditions and probable cause. Then he can cipher through the replies and pick out the ones he wants.


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## Feed Hay (May 30, 2008)

Just out of curiosity, I think this is the insurance guy that posted based on his profile.






Since he is not coming back to discuss. Anybody use his company in CA?

Actually a good learning moment here if insurance companies were about being good stewards and not just $$$. We could learn how to ask for better coverage or how to approach this situation.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Not sure about that, anytime I've had dry hay get wet and its not near freezing, it will start to heat. All the protein and sugar that feeds an animal is still there to feed microbes.

Locally some farmers have had dry round bales stacks that were fine all winter get wet in the spring once its above freezing, then start to smoke within a few weeks. Its a fine line, too wet and all the heat is carried away and they don't smoke, too dry and it doesn't heat. But when you have a big pile, theres always somewhere that will get the right conditions.

A good reference:
http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/faq9923



hayray said:


> I really doubt it. stack rained on is much different then anearobic heat production causing spontaneous combustion. Every time there is a barn fire it is always blamed on the hay.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have to agree with Hayray... I have seen plenty of dry roundbales get wet in this part of the country and have never seen any indication that they were going to heat.....rot maybe, but not heat. I have moved roundbales outside that was supposed to be picked up and got wet and sat there for several weeks and never got hot in the least.

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I bought some rolls of hay last fall that were "barn stored". When I went to get them it was obvious they had been stored outside in the rain, then moved inside.
The guy said most never questioned, they just saw hay coming from inside the barn.
My point is that he placed his hay along the fence row and moved it into the barn as he sold "barn stored hay". There was some outside mold on the bales where they had been restocked wet.
No smoke or heat, just some outside mold and rot on the bottom from where they sat outside on the ground.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have 10 4x5's sitting in my barn. Some have as much as 35% moisture in spots. Most readings are 15%.
Even when I put the moisture probe in the 35% moisture spot and push the temp button, the temp is within 5% of the ambient air temps.
I don't dispute that damp hay can ignite, but I don't see very much heating in my round bales....and I hope it stays that way. lol


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## Canderson012 (Jan 17, 2012)

"O' Lord Jesus it's a fire!"


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I don't have a moisture meter but I have a temp probe. We had some heavy bales for our earliest cut hay, I don't have acid on my baler. Anything that felt 5-10 lbs heavy we set the bales aside spaced out on an old conveyor frame so air could get to all 4 sides. The next few days they climbed to about 100 F and stayed there. 1/3 of them went stringy white mouldy, 1/3 dusty, 1/3 ok.

More importantly, we probed a few of the dryer ones that went into the stack. First bale we tried, 120F I think it was. We kept probing 2-3 times a day, after a week it came down. Haven't pulled it out yet but most likely garbage.

If it hadn't come down I wasn't looking forward to pulling out the 3000 bales that were on top of it (old style hay mow)



JD3430 said:


> I have 10 4x5's sitting in my barn. Some have as much as 35% moisture in spots. Most readings are 15%.
> Even when I put the moisture probe in the 35% moisture spot and push the temp button, the temp is within 5% of the ambient air temps.
> I don't dispute that damp hay can ignite, but I don't see very much heating in my round bales....and I hope it stays that way. lol


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