# Not allow to spray for Weeds on hay field... Now what



## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

So this 20ac field i just picked up free lease of Orchard grass/ w little clover has some low growing weeds in it. Landowner doesn't want me to spray due to all the neighbors possibly complaining about getting into there wells or so on. Whats my options or how do i approach this? Talked to my local dairy farmer and he said to ask landowner if i could fertilize and if he says yes then i could always get the fertilizer treated with herbicide lol. I never heard of that and don't know how to go about doing so. Sounds like it could be very expensive.

Would this method of treating the fertilizer be as of affective?


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

So you picked up some ground for free and a requirement is not spraying it and you are trying to do it anyway.Hmmmm

Cut it more often before the weeds head out.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Well the landowner said he would be ok with it for sure, but just to be safe doesn't want to tick his neighbors off.

It's was previously just hayed by mushroom balers. My thought was that I will be cutting it more frequently then they did and earlier which should put a damper on the weeds correct?

Would it be a waste of time to straight up fertilize per a soil sample and then come last summer early fall rent the no till drill and over seed?

I was going to be upfront with landowner what my intensions were so the neighbor would be so concerned. Is there a difference to them all getting there lawns sprayed for there grass then me spraying some 2,4-D? Landowner wants to keep it weed free so i'm trying to keep everyone happy.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Ahhhh I see.

Yea it should help with the weeds cutting more often.Some weeds more than others.

ROI with fertilizer pretty much always pays.

Yea I here ya on some thinking spraying lawns is not spraying chemicals.LOL


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Putting fertilizer on will be feeding the weeds also right, but in the long run it will what choke the weeds out correct, atleast that's the idea?

So far i just have not had much luck with drilling in existing stands. Should i be doing somethng different.

This is a nice much flatter piece of ground then mine and i just would like to try and get as much hay off this as possible. Looks like the mushroom guys got a lot of big square bales last fall for a 2nd cutting.

I guess i just have to be patient and see how things go after first cutting. Is there a better time to pull a soil sample?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Good luck on your free ground. To keep it that way keep the owner happy.


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## astropilot (Jun 3, 2008)

There is always a wick after you cut.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

I'm in the same boat. I'm plowing up 5 acres per year, plan to seed oat cover crop over timothy/clover mix. Owner covering lime. Total is about 50 acres of which some is over 1/2 mile from nearest house. A little 24D and frost seeding would be a lot cheaper in fuel.


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

Some local fertilizer businesses will "impregnate" the fertilizer with chemical you supply them. Not sure on all the details but thats the general idea. Its coats the dry fertilizer.


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## blueridgehay (Dec 25, 2012)

Unless I had long term lease, I'd be real careful on how much I spent on it. You go to reseedin and drillin, which is a great idea, get a good stand, and landowner changes his mind. Sometimes free ain't always free.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

jdhayboy said:


> Some local fertilizer businesses will "impregnate" the fertilizer with chemical you supply them. Not sure on all the details but thats the general idea. Its coats the dry fertilizer.


Most chemicals that I use that we impregnate on dry fertilizer are premergent chemicals.They kill the weed as it is germinating.Not after it is growing.

I don't know of any chemicals that impregnating on to fertilizer would work on established hay fields.

Check with local supplier??


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

A friend of mine has an orchard and there are some dusting chemicals for the trees but I think they are all fungicides/insecticides no herbicides.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

blueridgehay said:


> Unless I had long term lease, I'd be real careful on how much I spent on it. You go to reseedin and drillin, which is a great idea, get a good stand, and landowner changes his mind. Sometimes free ain't always free.


That's right. Look back at the history. The guy before you was a mushroom hayer. Now you have taken over. My guess is the previous guy may have wanted to do the same thing and got same answer as you and figured "screw it, I'll just do mushroom hay since the landowner won't let me spray". 
I have been down the exact same road. I had 35 acres I took over last year. They said "no spray". I must have made them real happy because they permitted me to spray this year and what a difference. And you should see these people. They're wealth is freakin scary. I'm talking net worth of probably 100 million!!

My guess is the guy is just worried about liability. Wells? He should be more worried about you drifting spray and smoking Mrs Smiths rose bushes than wells!!! Lol


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## jdhayfarmer (Jan 20, 2012)

Use liquid fertilizer! Spray it on mix the chemicals with it nobody will ever know


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

To me, if I couldn't spray, I couldn't make hay in the Deep South....well I could but it would be mushroom hay at best.....seems alot of people just want their grass cut to keep the lot looking nice and oh by the way, I ain't paying crap....that's my take anyway. But they don't mind if you put urea, or potash on them, that's some crazy stuff. If I had 35 acres of grass to cut and some guy said he would cut it to make hay, I believe I would make sure he put out plenty of fert. and sprayed those fields for weeds, if not I would find some one who would, even if I have to pay them to do it with a rotary. By haying the land, all of the nutrients are systematically stripped off, without supplements, that field will be looking worse for wear before long.....

Jd, if you are cutting for people with THAT kind of money, they should be paying you, period. But then again, not e everyone that lives in a big house, drives a fancy car, and dines on filet mignon and caviar is rich...alot of them are month to month, making that grand illusion of wealth seem real to everyone else.

Really quick story this reminded me of: I had a good friend that was a member of Augusta national (his dad was), every year during the masters, big money folks fly in from all over the country. Gin rummy is the card game of choice at ANGC. About 20 years ago tournament week was here,, some of the regulars at ANGC were playing Gin Rummy and a fella walks in, real loud and boisterous, smoking a big ole fat cigar, What y'all playing for? He asked the dealer. Dealer says nickel- dime....you want in? Guy says..naw...that's chump change, at my country club we play for dollar, five dollar. Dealer says, well it's nickel and dime here if you wanna get in.....guys says " na, don't like wasting my time, I'll come back later when y'all are playing for real money. 
Next day, he's back, same group of men playing cards. Walks in....y'all upped the anty any today? One of the other guys was dealing. Looks up and says," nickel and dime, you want in?" Na, when y'all start playing for some real money, let me know ( as he puffed away on his cigar, loud and boisterous). Dealer looks at him and says" feller, how much you figure you worth?" Guys pumps his chest out stands a bit taller, "net worth is about 8 mil, why"? Dealer gazes at him and slides the deck across the table to him and says "I'll draw ya high card for it". Never had any problems with that guy again, as he tucked his tail between his legs and whimpered away in humility....

Moral of that story, well you know the moral, but not all is what it seems with people sometimes, while they may put up a good front, their ass may be exposed. If those people have that kinda money....they wouldn't care two craps about paying to keep the place looking nice, I wouldn't cut their damned grass for free....I don't care if they give me the spoils, I'd rather charge em and rotary cut it.....


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

jdhayfarmer said:


> Use liquid fertilizer! Spray it on mix the chemicals with it nobody will ever know


You would have to use a real light dose of fertilizer as if it was too strong it would brown the whole field doing a general overspray. Might get some snake oil fertilizer that mixes 1 gallon per 150 gallons of water....at least that would keep you on the up and up storywise....and add your 2-4d or weedmaster as the weeds are probably getting at a tough kill height .

Regards, Mike


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Yea the orchars grass is twice as high as the weeds, so I guess best bet is to take first cut off and then maybe fertilize pla little.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Around here folks just get scared at the sight of a sprayer even if its just full of water for watering. I have seen some folks ok with wick weeders and spot spraying that don't like full on spraying. The spot spraying is similar to their tomato patches etc so they are ok with it. Won't help on a full field of garbage though.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

So in all seriousness. In return for this free lease i should be keeping the ground fertilized and up to par since i'm stripping the nutrients? The big mushroom hay guys that do like a 100mi radius around central PA where getting it free before and not doing anything but cutting it and probably getting $110/ton for mushroom hay.

If i i could get 3.00 a bale for this stuff off the wagon that would be great, better yet would be 4.00 a bale in winter months, but is that extra buck worth storing away and helping load up again when sold in winter lol. Who knows, right now i'm in a rush to get hay wagons built and a 30x40 equipment/ pole building up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> To me, if I couldn't spray, I couldn't make hay in the Deep South....well I could but it would be mushroom hay at best.....seems alot of people just want their grass cut to keep the lot looking nice and oh by the way, I ain't paying crap....that's my take anyway. But they don't mind if you put urea, or potash on them, that's some crazy stuff. If I had 35 acres of grass to cut and some guy said he would cut it to make hay, I believe I would make sure he put out plenty of fert. and sprayed those fields for weeds, if not I would find some one who would, even if I have to pay them to do it with a rotary. By haying the land, all of the nutrients are systematically stripped off, without supplements, that field will be looking worse for wear before long.....
> Jd, if you are cutting for people with THAT kind of money, they should be paying you, period. But then again, not e everyone that lives in a big house, drives a fancy car, and dines on filet mignon and caviar is rich...alot of them are month to month, making that grand illusion of wealth seem real to everyone else.
> Really quick story this reminded me of: I had a good friend that was a member of Augusta national (his dad was), every year during the masters, big money folks fly in from all over the country. Gin rummy is the card game of choice at ANGC. About 20 years ago tournament week was here,, some of the regulars at ANGC were playing Gin Rummy and a fella walks in, real loud and boisterous, smoking a big ole fat cigar, What y'all playing for? He asked the dealer. Dealer says nickel- dime....you want in? Guy says..naw...that's chump change, at my country club we play for dollar, five dollar. Dealer says, well it's nickel and dime here if you wanna get in.....guys says " na, don't like wasting my time, I'll come back later when y'all are playing for real money.
> Next day, he's back, same group of men playing cards. Walks in....y'all upped the anty any today? One of the other guys was dealing. Looks up and says," nickel and dime, you want in?" Na, when y'all start playing for some real money, let me know ( as he puffed away on his cigar, loud and boisterous). Dealer looks at him and says" feller, how much you figure you worth?" Guys pumps his chest out stands a bit taller, "net worth is about 8 mil, why"? Dealer gazes at him and slides the deck across the table to him and says "I'll draw ya high card for it". Never had any problems with that guy again, as he tucked his tail between his legs and whimpered away in humility....
> Moral of that story, well you know the moral, but not all is what it seems with people sometimes, while they may put up a good front, their ass may be exposed. If those people have that kinda money....they wouldn't care two craps about paying to keep the place looking nice, I wouldn't cut their damned grass for free....I don't care if they give me the spoils, I'd rather charge em and rotary cut it.....


I think I may be taken out of context here. The people DO pay me for fertilizing. Just sent them the bill for $5,500 in NPK. I don't know if you remember the thread I started about customer helping me pay for fertilizing? That's the one. Real, real generous people. Self made with their own hands, literally (artists). When the husband was alive, he drove around in an old rusted out car. He passed a few years back. Wife is still hanging in there in her 90's. Very famous people, but do not at all seek fame or notoriety. I'm actually reluctant to mention their name, but if you knew them, you'd really like them. 
I hate the type you described. Freak in blow hards with new found money....Screw em


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I have a high school friend who has made (legally) 30 million in the last 10 years, 10 M after taxes. You would not know he was much better off than anyone else in the community. He and I are good friends, maybe best friends. He has no problem lending a hand on my place if he finds I am in a bind and need a tractor driver.

He is more of a computer/High Tech type now but knows where he came from.

His computer showed activity in his business warehouse one night. He clicked on to see his manager getting a shipment ready to go out first thing the next day. My friend called and told him to go home. The manager said he had promised the order would be shipped first thing, did not want to keep anyone for overtime and was staying to keep his word. The employee had previously fallen on hard times and was thankful to have a good job.

He received a $500,000 Christmas bonus.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Tim/South said:


> I have a high school friend who has made (legally) 30 million in the last 10 years, 10 M after taxes. You would not know he was much better off than anyone else in the community. He and I are good friends, maybe best friends. He has no problem lending a hand on my place if he finds I am in a bind and need a tractor driver.
> He is more of a computer/High Tech type now but knows where he came from.
> His computer showed activity in his business warehouse one night. He clicked on to see his manager getting a shipment ready to go out first thing the next day. My friend called and told him to go home. The manager said he had promised the order would be shipped first thing, did not want to keep anyone for overtime and was staying to keep his word. The employee had previously fallen on hard times and was thankful to have a good job.
> He received a $500,000 Christmas bonus.


What a guy....i think you'll find that most people that are well off, recognize that fact and reciprocate, those that are puttin on a front might just be a snake in the grass.....

Jd, I remember the thread very well, the question was should the landowners pay for the NPK I think.....was this the same piece of land? They will pay for the amendments but do not want you to spray? What's the reasoning behind it? Course, like slowsuki said..."some people tremble at the sight of a sprayer") or something like that..... I'm not looking at the field obviously, I'm sure you know how the numbers work out for you, is it more beneficial to bale this land and add lots of amendments or small inputs and rotary? With rotary no problem on the weeds right, with proper nutrients will the o grass not out compete the weeds so that you could maybe get one good cutting of hay ( I guess you generally get 2-3?). I don't know how those numbers work out for ya....but weeds here and weeds there are different, I could do it without spraying for weeds now, but not when establishing the field, but I would definitely loose a cutting and have to rotary cut until it got hot enough for the Bermuda to take off. But you have a long standing relationship with this fella so you are obviously getting the job done for him in a workmanlike manner, I guess I would really crunch those numbers and see what it really costs, may be better/necessary to adjust your management practice, especially if he's generous enough to pay for amendments...


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Not all land owners are rich as some above. Some truly are trying to be stewards. Regardless of your beliefs on spraying some feel different. Pound your chest as hard as you would like, but free is a good deal. Go ahead and ask for more if you like. Just be prepared as to where you are told to go.

Work around stipulations. Do not try to fool landowner.

What would you do if you generously gave someone something with a stipulation? And saw she or he ignored it?

I do not care if owner is rich or poor. Either way you are the guest. They owe you nothing.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

The way I see it you might be best to explain to the landowner that you will be using a herbicide which is not very persistent in the soil and would have little danger of contaminating wells. At this stage you will probably need to take first cut off and then let the weeds come back and spray them when they are small and tender. Depending on what type of weeds we are talking about would determine if cutting frequently will control them enough. The problem I see with spraying liquid fertilizer spiked with a herbicide is what will the landowner say when the "fertilize only spray" starts killing weeds. If the neighbors are the only reason that he worries about you spraying I guess that his story to them could be liquid fertilize spray as they are probably not smart enough to realize the fertilize is killing the weeds if they think a little 2,4d is going to contaminate the ground.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> So in all seriousness. In return for this free lease i should be keeping the ground fertilized and up to par since i'm stripping the nutrients? The big mushroom hay guys that do like a 100mi radius around central PA where getting it free before and not doing anything but cutting it and probably getting $110/ton for mushroom hay.If i i could get 3.00 a bale for this stuff off the wagon that would be great, better yet would be 4.00 a bale in winter months, but is that extra buck worth storing away and helping load up again when sold in winter lol. Who knows, right now i'm in a rush to get hay wagons built and a 30x40 equipment/ pole building up.


Man our hay farming lives parallel each others so much!
It is hard to justify the expense of fertilizer when I make mushroom hay. 
$3/bale is only $120/ton based on a 50lb bale. That's a hell of a lot of extra work for $10 more per ton. 
Just make your 50lb bales, bring em down and we can sell much higher than $3-4!!!
I have a big barn, but it's going downhill fast.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Lol i hear ya, now i gota buy a bigger truck and trailer geeze cost just keeps going up. Im hoping i can make out ok this year now i got more land, but then again that just means more expense and chances for equipment to break down. Oh well got 2 of everything so will see how she goes. Now i gota find the help to stack bales on the wagon inless i figure out how to install this kicker.

Most i can probably haul on my 20ft trailer is about 125 bales at a time. Not sure if that be worth it or not. If i could get $4 bucks for um that would make me very happy. All my 2nd and 3rd cut O grass usually is sold for $5.00 could get more buts it's my aunts and they help me out stacking hay sometimes.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> What a guy....i think you'll find that most people that are well off, recognize that fact and reciprocate, those that are puttin on a front might just be a snake in the grass.....
> Jd, I remember the thread very well, the question was should the landowners pay for the NPK I think.....was this the same piece of land? They will pay for the amendments but do not want you to spray? What's the reasoning behind it? Course, like slowsuki said..."some people tremble at the sight of a sprayer") or something like that..... I'm not looking at the field obviously, I'm sure you know how the numbers work out for you, is it more beneficial to bale this land and add lots of amendments or small inputs and rotary? With rotary no problem on the weeds right, with proper nutrients will the o grass not out compete the weeds so that you could maybe get one good cutting of hay ( I guess you generally get 2-3?). I don't know how those numbers work out for ya....but weeds here and weeds there are different, I could do it without spraying for weeds now, but not when establishing the field, but I would definitely loose a cutting and have to rotary cut until it got hot enough for the Bermuda to take off. But you have a long standing relationship with this fella so you are obviously getting the job done for him in a workmanlike manner, I guess I would really crunch those numbers and see what it really costs, may be better/necessary to adjust your management practice, especially if he's generous enough to pay for amendments...


No, I do spray it, but this was the first year they allowed me to do so. It was a matter of trust in my opinion. Whaen I inherited the fields, they were full of junk. They were strip mined of nutrients. Tests came back lousy. I approached estate manager and showed him the lab numbers. I told him what it would cost. He went to the financial manager and explained to her the situation and convinced her that they needed to correct the field's nutrient problems and not make me bear the costs. 
I was so overjoyed that they payed for the heavy fertilizer dose that I paid for spraying the 35 acres and did it myself in about 4 hours with 24-d. Probably cost me about $175 in materials. Yeah, I could have probably sent them a bill for spraying, but they just paid a $5,500 fertilizing bill that they really didnt have to pay. I figured it was a small good will gesture on my part that shows I'm invested in their best interests.

On the "rich people"subject. I have yet another rich customer who is new money. Bought a big estate once owned by the Roosevelt family and fixed it all up. Really uppity people. Think theyre better than me because they have money. Want me to call every time I have to come over, even if just to drop off a machine....I need to cut them loose. Got enough idiots to deal with. Lol


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

whitmerlegacyfarm said:


> Lol i hear ya, now i gota buy a bigger truck and trailer geeze cost just keeps going up. Im hoping i can make out ok this year now i got more land, but then again that just means more expense and chances for equipment to break down. Oh well got 2 of everything so will see how she goes. Now i gota find the help to stack bales on the wagon inless i figure out how to install this kicker.Most i can probably haul on my 20ft trailer is about 125 bales at a time. Not sure if that be worth it or not. If i could get $4 bucks for um that would make me very happy. All my 2nd and 3rd cut O grass usually is sold for $5.00 could get more buts it's my aunts and they help me out stacking hay sometimes.


I have a trucker that'll pick them up and bring them down. Forget the trailer. Just load em up and follow him down. We'll load up the barn. Sell em over the winter for $6 +.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

if you want to farm and do not own land You need a good relationship with people who own land


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

endrow said:


> if you want to farm and do not own land You need a good relationship with people who own land


You ain't kiddin....


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Yes we talk about spraying and I will say this now as not to offend later.. In the east here ,hay cutting time is all but here and when someone who lives in this area asks should I spray the 1st cutting now with grazon p and d . It blows my mind you can tinker with a rake or a tedder but spraying has to be spot on no tinkering


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

Sorry what I meant was it is too late to spray the 1st cutting


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

IMO, it's too late to spray. Spring weeds are too mature and usually you need to wait 30 days after spray to drop hay. 
I sprayed 2-3 weeks ago when weeds and grasses were young. Now my fields look great. 
Last year I waited too long.
Soon as first cutting is off, it's milkweed time. I'm gonna put a hurtin on that crap this year...


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Yea I wont be spraying now anymore, I sprayed over a,month ago on all my fields, thet look great and redy to be cut.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

It has been too wet here to get in the fields to spray.

I have been on Southern States list for 5 weeks. Just can not get in the fields. I have places on two different terraces that have held water all winter. That has never happened before.

Thistle has gone to seed in the lease fields. I will still tell SS to come on and spray when I am next up they call. Maybe it will not a complete waste of money.

I was wondering the other day what I was going to do about all the dead thistle in one hay field? I guess I will bale it up with the Bahia and feed it to my cows. Just hate to have it on my place.

Maybe things will be better next year and we can spray early as planned.


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## AndyL (Mar 9, 2013)

Tim, if you're to wet to spray with ground rig, and you're hiring it out. Why don't you hire a crop duster to fly your hay fields? Just wondering if you have that option.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I can't wait for the spray guys around here. They want to spray too close to cutting time. As much as I hate the responsibility of spraying, I did it myself and I must admit, I did a better job than they did. Now I've got nice clean fields and I can be sure I waited 30 days before I cut.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I can't wait for the spray guys around here. They want to spray too close to cutting time. As much as I hate the responsibility of spraying, I did it myself and I must admit, I did a better job than they did. Now I've got nice clean fields and I can be sure I waited 30 days before I cut.


Right on you need to spray early so the grass can still tiller out and fill in where the weeds were .


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

AndyL said:


> Tim, if you're to wet to spray with ground rig, and you're hiring it out. Why don't you hire a crop duster to fly your hay fields? Just wondering if you have that option.


We do not have that option anymore. Back in the cotton days there were several crop dusters and the price was competitive.

I have a 300 gallon sprayer. I do not like to pull it down the road full of water. I do not like asking a land owner if I can fill it up from their hydrant.

Until this year I never had to wait over a week for the spray rig to come out. It has just been so wet that they are back logged.

I have one field with a thistle problem. First cutting will be suspect. I have waited to fertilize that field until after spraying. I am considering cutting a thin crop with thistle and putting it in a ditch just to clean the place up. Then fertilize, maybe fertilize now and cut before the fertilize kicks in?

Never before thought there was such a thing as too much rain.


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