# Going Back To Grass



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Kind of hate to see this article as we don't need the influx of forage producers, but it is what it is....and there are some good tips in this read from Progressive Forage Grower.

Regards, Mike

http://www.progressiveforage.com/forage-production/planting/turning-cropland-into-grassland


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

> Alfalfa mixed with grasses like orchardgrass or *endophyte-free* tall fescue may be a better option if the hay will be used on-farm for beef cattle


This is the first time in years I have read endophyte free fescue being recommended. The failure of endophyte free is what prompted the endophyte friendly varieties to be developed.

FSA is now allowing pasture and hay ground to be enrolled in CRP. So much grass land was lost when corn and beans were doing well that it caused a concern.


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I agree with the section talking about planting on bean stubble. I have had a lot of success frost seeding over bean stubble when the field was already in good shape and didn't have ditches that needed to be filled in.

On the subject of endophyte free fescue, some research I have read states that, if a neighboring field is infected, you field will be infected within 3-5 years.

Ralph


----------



## steve IN (Jan 13, 2010)

I do not feel the competition will be that bad. The type of operator who jumps from crop to crop ( which is what the banks and universities preach to the next generation) usually are not committed to hay production. They tend to either produce junk or expect big profits with little effort. I still believe the idea if you produce a quality product for your customers then they will not be taken in by the "Johnny Come Lately"s. Of course there are always the people who think they are smarter than the producer. They expect supreme dairy hay for grinder hay prices. These people usually have higher vet bills than feed bills but consider themselves frugal shoppers


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> On the subject of endophyte free fescue, some research I have read states that, if a neighboring field is infected, you field will be infected within 3-5 years.
> 
> Ralph


Everything I have read is just the opposite. The endophyte is in the individual seed and restricted to the host plant. That is the reason it took decades for the ergot endophyte to be discovered. Fields that are 10% infected will be 10% infected years from now. The harmful ergot endophyte does not spread within a field unless the seeds from that individual plant germinate.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tim/South said:


> This is the first time in years I have read endophyte free fescue being recommended. The failure of endophyte free is what prompted the endophyte friendly varieties to be developed


I am wondering if that is not a typo and should have read "endophyte friendly".

Regards, Mike


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tim/South said:


> The harmful ergot endophyte does not spread within a field unless the seeds from that individual plant germinate.


Maybe that is what the research Ralph was alluding to because It is rare that one can get fescue harvested in the boot stage before seed maturity(here)....and then it would be possible for cross contamination from your neighbors highly infected field by the way of seed. I have a field of Orchard grass that is next to a neighbors field of fescue and I have to replace my field of Orchard a little sooner than others because of the fescue that germinates and grows in it each year....not nearly so much in others. Very noticeable clumps of fescue evolve each year when the Orchard goes dormant.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

steve IN said:


> I do not feel the competition will be that bad. The type of operator who jumps from crop to crop ( which is what the banks and universities preach to the next generation) usually are not committed to hay production. They tend to either produce junk or expect big profits with little effort. I still believe the idea if you produce a quality product for your customers then they will not be taken in by the "Johnny Come Lately"s. Of course there are always the people who think they are smarter than the producer. They expect supreme dairy hay for grinder hay prices. These people usually have higher vet bills than feed bills but consider themselves frugal shoppers


I agree. Farmers used to row cropping will not necessarily be used to or want to put in all the tractor work of getting hay produced correctly throughout the entire summer. Nevermind worrying about hay curing enough and such. Then there is the storage of hay that many aren't prepared for.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Teslan said:


> I agree. Farmers used to row cropping will not necessarily be used to or want to put in all the tractor work of getting hay produced correctly throughout the entire summer. Nevermind worrying about hay curing enough and such. Then there is the storage of hay that many aren't prepared for.


I would prefer that you would be right.....but I doubt it. Many folks that jumped on the grain train ripped out forage fields to do so and they are very familiar with what it takes to grow and harvest hay. And if you are facing heavy debt load, most will become very resourceful in order to keep the "loan officers" from paying the farm a visit.

Regards, Mike


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

There appears to be a lot of confusion about endophytes and fescue even among the pro's.

This source, http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G4669, indicates that:

The endophyte is present in the seed at the time of planting. If the seed is less than a year old, the endophyte is still alive. When the seed germinates and grows into a seedling, the endophyte begins infecting the plant at the base of the leaf. It remains there until the plant begins its reproductive cycle. At this time, the endophyte moves into the stem, growing as the stem elongates. Eventually, the stem forms a seed head, and the endophyte moves into seed.

One of the more common thoughts is that higher stocking rates cause endophyte infected fescue to overtake endophyte free fescue in a pasture (https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-2140.pdf).

According to this paper, http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/5026.htm, (emphasis is theirs)

Two characteristics of the endophyte have great practical importance. First, *the organism does not affect either the growth or appearance of the grass, and it requires a laboratory analysis to detect its presence.* Secondly, *it is seed transmitted and apparently not transmitted in any other way.* Thus, once a non-infected stand is established, it can be expected to remain that way.

To add to the confusion, https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/ay258.htm, states:

Acremonium coenophialium is an endophytic fungus, that is, a fungus that lives within a plant's intercellular spaces. The endophytic fungus overwinters within the plant itself, and fungus growth occurs in the spring as tiller growth resumes on the fescue plant. The seed head becomes becomes infected, the seed acquiring the endophytic fungus. Since the primary means if transmission is the seed source itself, this explains why a large percentage of the fescue pastures are infected.

So, here's the conclusion I drew from reading a number of these papers.

1) An endophyte free stand *CAN *become infected if a) poorly managed,  overgrazed and c) a neighboring an infected field because the infected seeds will overtake the pasture.

2) That the grazing a field when the field is in seed production, feeding fescue harvested with seed heads or grazing over winter all contribute to fescue toxicity.

3) Harvest fescue prior to seed production.

Just my thoughts

Ralph


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

> *Contamination Prevention *
> 
> Will friendly E+ tall fescue plants convert to toxic E+ plants? Can endophytes be transferred via pollen from a toxic E+ pasture to a neighboring friendly E+ tall fescue pasture? The answer to both of these questions is "No."


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I could not get the quote feature to allow a reply on the previous post. The quote came from the link posted above.

https://www.uaex.edu...df/FSA-2140.pdf

I read every link and article. I could not see anything that suggested cross contamination was possible.


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> Maybe that is what the research Ralph was alluding to because It is rare that one can get fescue harvested in the boot stage before seed maturity(here)....and then it would be possible for cross contamination from your neighbors highly infected field by the way of seed. I have a field of Orchard grass that is next to a neighbors field of fescue and I have to replace my field of Orchard a little sooner than others because of the fescue that germinates and grows in it each year....not nearly so much in others. Very noticeable clumps of fescue evolve each year when the Orchard goes dormant.
> 
> Regards, Mike


The fescue would be more easily germinated in a field of another grass species that was dormant.

If a person had a endophyte friendly fescue field, the seeds from an infected field would would have to germinate in the endophyte friendly field. The ergot endophyte would only be in that one plant that germinated. The ergot can not contaminate and existing plant.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tim/South said:


> The fescue would be more easily germinated in a field of another grass species that was dormant.


That would be true, but fescue and Orchard grasses are both cool season grasses and are dormant during the heart of winter when the temps are below germinating conditions. There is a lot of confusion with this "science" on fescues. Put's one in mind of global warming opinion.

Regards, Mike


----------



## timberjackrob (Feb 16, 2015)

most of the fields around here that were converted to grain is lease land that was leased out by absentee land owners and older farmers that wanted to give up cattle farming.they might be some converted back to grass but I don't think it will be a lot around here and a large portion of the land has had the fence rows pushed out so I don't think it will be converted back to pasture either but it will be interesting to see what happens with it come spring at any rate I would expect lease rates will come down.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I definitely see lower prices in the future....have to secure those good buyers, hard to do sometimes...
Even without the added comp, the prices will drop next year barring some kinda catastrophe......NPK down, fuel down, that means cost to produce is down, I hope.....However, insurance has increased...imagine that


----------



## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

Around here when someone gives up cattle they usually plant pine trees.


----------



## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

x2 on the pine plantations. I'm having a hard time finding pasture to sustain my growth which has resorted to me erecting fences on hay fields I lease. Guys here jumped on the corn/bean bandwagon thinking they were going to turn the available poorly maintain grasslands into high yielding money makers. They joined the show 10 years too late. I saw beans that were maybe 12" tall and wheat/oats almost 24". A buddy of mine thought he was just going to jump right in, he has no farming background. He asked why I didn't get on board since it was so easy.

I have absolutely no desire to row crop other than my personal garden. I'll stick to cows and hay, I've been trying sheep to diversify but that is not panning out too hot.


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> That would be true, but fescue and Orchard grasses are both cool season grasses and are dormant during the heart of winter when the temps are below germinating conditions. There is a lot of confusion with this "science" on fescues. Put's one in mind of global warming opinion.
> 
> Regards, Mike


We are too far south for Orchard Grass. I thought it was a cool season grass much like fescue, as mentioned. Is OG prolific like fescue?

I have never seen a study that hinted the toxic E+ would contaminate a friendly E+. I was assured by the Extension office and the literature they sent that cross contamination from plant to plant did not exist.

I saw a study that suggested toxic Fescue might choke out an Endophyte Free Fescue due to the Free being a much less hardy variety. The toxic fescue would not spread the ergot fungus, just overwhelm the weaker grass.


----------



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

My understanding on toxic endophyte fescue is the toxin stays in the mother plant and is only passed on to seeds from that plant but is not transferred through the pollen to a different plant. This makes it impossible for a endophyte free or friendly endophyte fescue field to be contaminated by pollination from a neighboring field. The only way it can become contaminated by toxic fescue is if the seed gets spread into the field......maybe from equipment, animals, or encroaching from the ditch or edge of the field.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Tim/South said:


> We are too far south for Orchard Grass. I thought it was a cool season grass much like fescue, as mentioned. Is OG prolific like fescue?
> 
> I have never seen a study that hinted the toxic E+ would contaminate a friendly E+. I was assured by the Extension office and the literature they sent that cross contamination from plant to plant did not exist.
> 
> I saw a study that suggested toxic Fescue might choke out an Endophyte Free Fescue due to the Free being a much less hardy variety. The toxic fescue would not spread the ergot fungus, just overwhelm the weaker grass.


Tim, Orchard grass here is not nearly as prolific as KY fescue....which seems to live forever.

I think endophyte fescue can and will choke out endophyte Free fescue in time as for the reasons you suggested.

I do not know much about Endophyte Friendly fescue other than some studies that say that it is bad for grass vigor to remove all the endophyte from the plant as it weakens its vitality greatly....thus the development of Endophyte friendly that has low levels of the endophyte as compared to KY31.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

With endophyte friendly fescue, such as MaxQ, the harmful ergot endophyte was replaced with an endophyte that is actually beneficial. That is what gives the endophyte friendly the vigor of K31 tall fescue.

Note that not all K31 contains the harmful ergot endophyte. A person can now buy K31 low ergot fescue where only 10% of the field tested positive. Much more affordable than the MaxQ.

I wish we could grow Orchard Grass this far south. The Tennessee/Alabama line is pretty much the border. Some horse stables have OG trucked in and it is nice looking hay.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I was told by a University of Tennessee professor back in the mid-nineties that when fescue was brought into this area in the late forties and imported from Europe that the seed came from two separate regions in Europe....and that one region had no toxic endophyte and the other area was highly toxic.....guess which European area supplied East Tennessee primarily?  I still have about 25 acres of the original fescue.....I had it tested many years ago and it was over 95% infected with toxic endophyte.

I really like Orchard grass too Tim, it has a beautiful blue cast to the hay and is very soft.

Regards, Mike


----------



## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Was talking with my seed guy today while buying my seed. He copied the above for me. It shows where the endophyte is stored within the plant. ...at least according to this article.
73, Mark

PS, sorry, I loaded the bottom of the page as the first pic and the first part as the second photo. At least, you don't hafta turn your monitor sidewards to read it


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Interesting about the self-defense mechanism about grazing too low.....I have cut that stuff nearly into the dirt on occasion and it slows it a bit, but it comes right back. By far the toughest forage there is in this part of the country.

Regards, Mike


----------



## prairie (Jun 20, 2008)

The endophyte infected/endophyte free/friendly endophyte confusion is something , as a seed salesman, that I deal with on a regular basis.

If you have any questions go back and read Post #10 by rjmoses, a lot of good info there.

Here are the three basics as I see them 1) Assume a tall fescue field is infected until proven differently. 2) Once a plant is endophyte free or friendly/beneficial it can not become an infected plant, nor produce infected seed via pollination by an infected plant. 3) Endo- free is generally not as hardy and persistent as infected or friendly plants, especially more stressful locations, but has proven to do almost as well in northern locations.

Here is how I sell place tall fescue, although there are always exceptions:

South of Interstate 70 plant only friendly/beneficial endophyte varieties

Between Interstate 70 and Interstate 80, plant friendly/beneficial for long term(5+ yrs) and permanent stands, and use friendly/beneficial or endo-free for short term(5- yrs) stands.

North of Interstate 80 use endo-free for short term hay or grazing stands. Use endo-free or friendly/beneficial for long term and permant stands, but strongly suggest friendly/beneficial.

Many people have a problem with the price of friendly/beneficial endophyte varieteies, but that is usually a short sighted view. Currently the price difference between my endophyte free and beneficial endophyte is $1.00/lb. At 20 lbs/acre that $20/acre difference is very little when spread over the life of the stand. It will probably make the difference by not requiring or reducing the interval of reseeding, and by having a healthy stress tolerant stand, reduce encroachment, such as by infected fescue plants and other undesirables.


----------

