# Fertility on rented pieces of ground



## ajj0034 (Jul 31, 2011)

I do a lot of reading on here and I was wondering how you guys justify spending so much on on PK and lime on these small pieces of ground to hay. I to am a firm believer in fertility but after I buy my n rent the place and time and money to bale everything I am around 2 to three dollars a square bale in. Oh ya not trying to start a fight just wondering if you think you are getting your money back. The way I have it figured if it does not rain it's going to be tough.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

AJ, I have to agree that amending to soil with pk and lime is both costly and time consuming, it's for this reason why I try to get a 5 year lease or more. For me it's about sustainability of the field and good test reports of forage quality. I took on a new field (30 ac) a couple of years ago, fella had just used ammonium nitrate for a couple of years prior, after the first cut I tested, RFQ was 37......got it up to 90 now and the field looks very healthy and yields are now where they should be. It does cost some serious dollars tho, I figure on each square I make, I have about 2-2.5 $ in every bale in amendments, if I have to water, I'm screwed......
Btw put your location in your profile, helps to know sometimes, thx


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## foz682 (Jan 10, 2013)

We're very cautious about how much is spent on rented and leased land. The longer the term of the lease, the more we're willing to spend on land(at least 5 years). If the owner won't sign a lease, very little is spent on fertility. The lands we rent/lease are all owned by people who don't live anywhere near here, and we have no idea what their intentions are if they refuse to sign anything, and who knows, they may decide to rent the land to someone else or sell it the day after we put $2000-$3000 of fertilizer on it. I'd love to just buy the main farm that we rent, especially since it borders our property, but there seems to be some kind of estate issues and the owners won't budge.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Personally, I worry about the fertility on the rented ground as much as the owned, otherwise I'm just shooting myself in the foot as far as production is concerned. With regard to rain....if it doesn't happen, nothing will grow much. N will more likely be wasted but P&K will typically stick around. Our worst drought was 2011, but I still got 3 cuttings off my best field and a couple off my worst ones. I believe it was because I had loaded them with K the winter before. This last year we got rain at the right times, I loaded the fields with fertilizer to recover them, and made more than I could store. The round bales I sold, paid for all of my fertilizer and significantly reduced the cost of the bales I feed. I'll be pulling soil tests in the next few weeks. I don't expect I'll have to throw a lot of fertilizer at them this winter to have a good first cutting in the spring. From my standpoint, if I had to buy hay I'd end up paying $7-10 for a small square bale now days around here, so $2-$3 to me is cheap....but it all depends on the rain.


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## reginnip (Aug 30, 2011)

The traditional farmer fertilizers his fields with petro-chemical NPK fertilizer with the thought












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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

oh boy


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

ajj0034 said:


> I do a lot of reading on here and I was wondering how you guys justify spending so much on on PK and lime on these small pieces of ground to hay. I to am a firm believer in fertility but after I buy my n rent the place and time and money to bale everything I am around 2 to three dollars a square bale in. Oh ya not trying to start a fight just wondering if you think you are getting your money back. The way I have it figured if it does not rain it's going to be tough.


I won't plant hay unless I have a seven year lease. The lease starts as well from when I actually plant the alfalfa, if the soil tests show the fertility to be way off I'll inform the landowner that I'll be planting corn followed by beans. If it's not to far away from the home farm it will also get at least one application of manure. Before I do any of this though we sign a two year lease with an addendum that upon planting of the hay a new seven year lease _will_ be signed, if the land owner breaks this agreement it's also wrote in that I will be compensated for any fertilizer/lime expenses incurred up to that point. I got screwed once by somebody trying to worm their way out of a lease so they could chop it up into pieces, I had a local lawyer draw up my new leases, then I file them with the county so its public record.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

If I am primarily farming property that cannot be developed (natural land trust, conservancy, etc.) I would "assume" I am only at risk of losing out to another farmer who takes the land out from under me if I do a poor job, or if the land owner just decided to quit farming it (for what reason I wouldnt know). In other words, the land cannot be developed or parceled smaller.
I have no leases and pay no rent. All my land owners have no idea what is going on much beyond that I test their soil, fertilize, grow and then cut hay. It's all a handshake deal. Now I see that they could tell me the deal is off and I could lose thousands in fertilizer. Should I be thinking about an "agreement" where year to year I have them sign said agreement so they cant give me the boot right after fertilizer is applied?
I dont think it will happen, but......


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## Lazy J (Jul 18, 2008)

I will no longer farm anybody's ground without a written lease. My leases have a termination date links of lease and payment terms.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

I'm curious if i were to try and pic up a a few small fields at a neighbors farm that are not used by the leased dairy farm due to to small, hollows, or a little wet for there big equipment that is leased out. The mushroom hay guys that come through the whole region end up just baling it once a year so i'm curious how that works, i assume they probably just cut and bale it and pay the landowner so much per bale they make. It's within a mile of my house so i was hoping to try talk to the landowner and see if he would allow me to hay these fields could be up to 10 ac. Most appear to have a decent amount of grass but i can see some broomsedge or whatever you call in most of them. I figure if i cut it early enough i may be able to get $3.00 a bale and get in there and maybe a 2nd cut in timly fashion and thin out some weeds and the broomsedge with more frequent cuttings and some herbicides.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Brooms edge isn't a noxious weed, is it? 
That situation is much like mine. I took everything I could get my hands on. Some of my fields looked more like multi flora rose more than anything, but I sprayed the stiff and beat it back and I was surprised at the improvement in just one season.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

I don't think so, but my horses arn't touchin the bales with that in there, they may pick out the lil bit of Orchard Grass mixed in bale but aren't messing with the Broomsedge and it was still green in color when baled up but did go to seed, makes a heck of a mess when you are raking it up big cloud that looks like dandylion heads floating almost. I probably have about 50 bales of this stuff and not sure what to do with it other then put on CL w/ pic of bales and tell people what it's in and maybe someone with cows would take it i don't know. It's a shame cause i have a decent amount of O Grass in this lil acre and half section, hopefully now that i put 2ton of lime on all my fields this past fall, frequent cuttings this year will knock it out. I was told the broomsedge takes over when low ph levels. Mine was down to 5.2 in some of the fields where this was being a pain, and spraying will not knock it out inless sprayed w/ a round-up. Depends what it looks like when fields starts to green up this spring, that 1 1/2 ac may just get plowed up and sweet corn planted in it, i want to get my old Massey Fergusion 2 row planter out. Just the dang deer wipe it out so i havn't tried a big patch in a few years.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

WOW 5.2? Man I was bitchin about my 6.0 fields.
5.2 would be like lunar landscape down here!!! lol


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Yea and i still had some half decent grass hay in those area due to brush hoggin a few times years past, just hasn't had the lime for years. My soil sample said w/ 2ton of lime target PH was 6.5 then. The O grass requires 5.5 or above,, so could explain why early spring no till of o grass and timothy was a major bummer, but i did seed on bare ground in the one field and had it take well.

This spring they are getting a good shot of 2,4D ASAP and then i'm putting the N to them in Granular Urea.

My P and K are above optimal, adding Liquid Manure would that raise my P and K at all? Sorry i don't know what all is in Manure lol


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I have the opposite problem. I have decent N but some of my fields are really low on phosphorous. I had one field that was in single digits for phosphorous


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

On our rented grass hay ground we spun on 50-30-60 last week and about March 20Th we will do another 40# of n ... We put just N on after 1st and 2nd cutting like 70 to 40# depending on what the field is capable of. Dad always said" the year you rent it you must at least put on what the crop will take off . That is just good farming "


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I just got all my soil test results.......man I'm gonna have to fork out some $$ if I want to put on what the lab says it needs.


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## whitmerlegacyfarm (Aug 26, 2011)

Dang sorry to hear that, but think about wat hay you made last year, n u can prob make so much more and better nutrient value by there soil sample recomemdations.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

If you don't putt at least as much nutrients as what the harvested crop will remove from the soil the the soil will just keep getting poorer and that's when the weeds and broomsage get an advantage over the desirable grass. Also you will not get the full benefit of the nitrogen unless the ph and p and k are at a desirable level. By applying the recommend amount of nutrients that your soil sample calls for you will also get much better yields and have more nutrition value in the hay.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> I just got all my soil test results.......man I'm gonna have to fork out some $$ if I want to put on what the lab says it needs.


If you rent I would not focus on what is needed to bring the soil to a perfect n-p-k status.. But i would put on what you need to produce this years crop I am not sure which you are talking about .. We will budget for the rented grass land fertilizer for this year per acre $85n-$28P-$37k those are conservative #'s Nothing inc. for application.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

endrow said:


> If you rent I would not focus on what is needed to bring the soil to a perfect n-p-k status.. But i would put on what you need to produce this years crop I am not sure which you are talking about .. We will budget for the rented grass land fertilizer for this year per acre $85n-$28P-$37k those are conservative #'s Nothing inc. for application.


SORRY TYPO $65n-$28P-$37K


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So you pay $130 per acre for np &k ? Does that include application ?
My guy gives me 3 different scenarios. Good: $85 /acre, better: $115 /acre, best $173/acre. 
Some fields need better, some need best. Good wont be enough for anything I have.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'd really worry about your PH first, all the fertilizer in the world won't help if a skewed PH is tying it up. Personally I'd be getting leases on this ground before I spent buko bucks on anything.

I only have one farm I don't have a written lease on. We've been neighbors forever, we've helped him with his farming in a wet year or whatever. When he quit farming he came and asked if I wanted to rent it, 2nd year on nothing but a handshake. This year he was all worried I was paying him too much in rent since it was so dry, I did pay him more than last year but 50 b/a beans and 180 b/a corn sold at $17/b and $7.50/b respectively I could afford to pay more. He still won't let me pay him for the 12 acres of hay I make there. Used to be his cow pasture, he quit milking, yanked all the fences and was keeping it mowed with a bush hog. One year his bush hog was broke so he used his old 7' sickle bar. It laid for a week so we asked if we could bale it to get it off the field. Been making it ever since, actually a fairly productive hayfield once we no-tilled alfalfa in. Far too rolling and too much HEL to ever think about plowing it. He won't take anything for it as he says if I wasn't making hay off it then he'd have to mow it again.

I'm pretty sure he'd be insulted if I asked him to sign a lease.


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## steve in IN (Sep 30, 2009)

I agree about a written lease. For hay i ask for five years. I usually have to pay for lime as all the competition for corn ground around here. i have been slowly converting farms over to vRT sampling. a bit pricey year one but really pays off in year two and three . The main benefit has been lime. Instead of spreading two tons per acre on fifty acres we now might spread a total of sixty tons but only on what needs it. it is amazing on first year samples that can be ph from 5.5 all theway up to 7.5. have some fields with heavy manure history requires no P or K for two or three years.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

steve in IN said:


> I agree about a written lease. For hay i ask for five years. I usually have to pay for lime as all the competition for corn ground around here. i have been slowly converting farms over to vRT sampling. a bit pricey year one but really pays off in year two and three . The main benefit has been lime. Instead of spreading two tons per acre on fifty acres we now might spread a total of sixty tons but only on what needs it. it is amazing on first year samples that can be ph from 5.5 all theway up to 7.5. have some fields with heavy manure history requires no P or K for two or three years.


IF I have a five year lease I always pay for lime, if not and it needs lime it's a little leverage in getting an otherwise reluctant owner to sign a longer lease.

On shorter term leases I have em sign a new lease if I have to pay for lime and pro rate the lime over five years. If they cancel next year then they owe me 4/5th's the cost of lime, the year after that 3/5ths, etc.

Unless your as sure about them as I am about the only guy I don't have a written lease with, then don't be spending _your _money on _their _ground if your not guaranteed to get it back.


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## steve in IN (Sep 30, 2009)

I have also pro-rated the cost of seed. It really brings out the honesty in people. Some often back out which tells me they were only looking for something for nothing and had no intention of keeping you on. I learned the hard way on a piece owned by "highly moral and religous type". Spent money on lime and seeded it to a nice grass mix and three years later he figured "theres gold in them thar bales". His son helped bale for me for one year and had it all figured out. Oh well live and learn.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

steve in IN said:


> I have also pro-rated the cost of seed. It really brings out the honesty in people. Some often back out which tells me they were only looking for something for nothing and had no intention of keeping you on. I learned the hard way on a piece owned by "highly moral and religous type". Spent money on lime and seeded it to a nice grass mix and three years later he figured "theres gold in them thar bales". His son helped bale for me for one year and had it all figured out. Oh well live and learn.


been there and done that


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