# rebale



## leo (Apr 29, 2009)

anybody have opinion on steffen or hunterwood processors worth the cash? any used ones out there?


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

Don't have any experience with the Hunterwood - it is supposed to be the cadalliac, but with the rolls royce price. We use a Steffen Systems press - It is a very good machine - it is not trouble free and won't perform like a brand new JD tractor - but they make them individually, not by the thousands. Dave Steffan is very good to work with and we have been very pleased with the machine.


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## leo (Apr 29, 2009)

its big bucks no matter what and a vicious circle forced to pump out the loads and hope for a good supply if i may ask how much do i have to produce to make it worth the investment i think i should maybe look for a used one thanks for the reply


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

If you are talking about breaking apart a large bale and rebaling the hay into a small bale package, I have problems with the idea. 
When the hay is rebaled the moisture level probably is down in the 10 to 12 percent range. Unless their baler has a way to increase the moisture level of the hay, there will be a lot of leaves lost to shattering. You loose both protein and feed value but also total tonnage. May look good but a lot of good feed will be on the floor.


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## JamesIII (Jul 25, 2008)

Wilson makes a good point about product loss and moisture content. I do think some of these machines slice the bales instead of tearing them apart like a roundbale unroller, that should help control leaf shatter and loss. Using a preservative on the original bales should help bale at a slightly higher moisture and hold down dust. If you are going to purchase large bales to rebale you do lose some of the control factor in quality and moisture content that would be ideal for your operation possibly adding to product loss. I do think it has its place, areas with labor shortages, very narrow harvesting windows, very large volumes all would be good candidates. One would have to be carefull, a year in which hay comes off way to mature because of weather may not have enough extra value to cover the additional cost. With that said I am also investigating a rebaling system of some type. More input from those that know of these operations would be helpfull. JamesIII


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

we used a homemade rebaling outfit for several years - it is for sale







- garbage in garbage out, it will not improve the quality of your rd bales or your large squares. it worked well on grass hay and grassy alfalfa. Was of no use at all on alfalfa - too much leaf shatter! The grassy hay of adequate moisture 12-15% worked pretty good.
the steffan systems machine is a different animal altogether. on most grassy hay and grassy alfalfa, you have almost no leaf shatter. We are baling some alfalfa from Utah right now that is very nice 200+ rfv, but a little too dry. The flakes of hay will loose some of their integerity and will have some leaf shatter. This does not affect the protein level of the hay! The leaf is still in the bale, it just is not still attached to the stem. This hay cannot be fed in a traditional hay manger hanging on the wall, but feeds on the floor or in a trough very well. 
The steffen machine does loose about 1/2 ton hay per 22-24 tons processed due to product falling on the ground during the process. 
Once again, quality control is paramont, bottom bales don't work, moldy hay is still moldy. If the hay is too wet, it will even go through another sweat as it is compressed and the moisture changes with the denisty and the hay becomes more anaerobic.
someone else may know the numbers better than I do, but my guess is that we will need to put about 20,000 tons thru the machine to pay for it.


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

Are you looking to export or just big bale conversion? This is the first major question. I have personally seen the Hunterwood soft press, several Export Hunterwoods, Coopers, Double Presses run and own a Steffen. All of them have their place in the industry based on input bales,tonnage you are planning on pressing, and market you are targeting. Hunterwoods are by far the most impressive and fastest export presses on the market, but carry the biggest price tag. All of the machines are capable of making bales and do so every day all over the world. Each machine has it's own advantages and disadvantages. 
As far as quality: Shit in Shit out. Quality in Quality out. With the right hay, our press makes perfect bales that flake like small squares, but I believe that they are far SUPERIOR in quality. Large squares have 1/3-1/4 the exposed surface area that small squares do per ton. I say that we retain far more leaves by weight just in the baling and handling of large squares vs small squares. The 2-3% total volume of hay that falls on the floor in the processing is only a portion of the hay that would have been left in the field had we small squared it and stacked it. It falls on a concrete floor and gets pushed into a pile to be sold as a good product. This is sold for about 60% of what it cost coming in. 1/2 price on 2% equals a 1% shrink in the process. Protein loss 0
As far as handling: One day with a 1089 I stacked over 6000 small squares on the edge of the field. It was a long day and that 225 ton was not covered and 30 miles away from the barn. Let me tell you, the work hadn't even began. With one large square you can easily bale, stack, and then transport 200-300 tons of hay back to a protected barn in the less hours with less people. Loading a flatbed was always a chore and you were beat when you were done 2 hours later. I have a scale ticket in my file from a recent load of hay we stuffed into a van. 864 bales, 23.5 tons,29 minutes empty stamp to loaded stamp.
There are hundreds of thousands of tons of high quality hay baled in large squares all over the west. The quality of the sliced small square can be BETTER than conventional small squares. 
Unless you have actually stood in front of one of these machines and watched the right kind of hay run, you have no business making any kind of judgement about the quality of the process or the bales/hay. My doors are always open and you can take your best shot at picking my process apart. You better bring a 12 pack and your A game.


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## chadl (Mar 23, 2009)

Very informative HAlls


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Tim Hall you get a pass on baling large squares.

I will dispute the idea that small square's loose more dry matter & quality with leaf shatter. It simply requires a little management.

It should be a well known fact that hay grown in the Irrigated Western States will be of higher quality than hay baled, using the same equipment, in the Humid East. The variables can be managed for quality hay.

Seeing that all large square bales are put up using an inline baler, at the same humidity and crop moisture conditions there will be fewer leaves lost than when baled by a conventional small baler. There is an exception though. There are inline small balers on the market.

In the Humid East it is imperative to leave the hay out in a wide, full width swath if at all possible. Most machines have a 5 or 6 foot conditioner roller, a 9 foot machine can be expected to cover 66% of the exposed ground, while a 14 foot machine will be covering roughly 40% of the exposed ground. The solution is to follow the mower with a tedder to cover 100%.

Now in the Arid West there is not the need to expose a wide swath to the direct rays of the sun. Some of our University Friends tell us 75% of hay curing is done by the direct rays of the sun. The remaining 25% is more than adequate in the western arid conditions. In fact it is detrimental because the hay will require raking and thee is not enough humidity to rake with out loosing a high percentage of the leaves. Those of us who enjoy a morning of over 90% RH can rake to our hearts content with a minimal loose of leaves.

Where in the west the challenge is finding enough humidity to bale, in the east the challenge is to have a humidity low enough to bale.

Entirely different worlds. The universal truths of hay production apply both places though. Hay raked at >40% moisture &/or 90% RH will have minimal leaf loss. Most of us have a surface dew and an effective 100% RH. 
Hay baled, in small squares, above 20% moisture &/or 65% or 70% RH will mold. 
Hay baled, in any size or type baler below 12% or 14% moisture will shatter leaves. Hay baled, during the day, time below 50% maybe even 55% RH will also shatter leaves, if the hay is not dampened.

The idea of cutting a large square bale is interesting. True it will not have the small flakes found in small bales, and some animal owners may find this disconcerting. I say this because they feed say 3 flakes in the morning and 3 flakes in the evening. They are kind of expecting 15 to 20 flakes per bale.

If color is a perceived indicator of quality among your customer base, you have a problem. Under the old hay judging criteria color accounted for up to 15 points out of 100 potential points, of the hand scoring. There was also 100 points for the lab test results. So color ended up as 7.5% of the over all score. I guess in theory coal black hay could end up as the grand champion best of show over Kelly green hay. 
I understand color is now not even considered in the national hay show.

I will grant that it takes 3 maybe 4 small balers to drop as many tons on the ground as one big baler.

My operation is a one man show. I cut, ted if necessary, rake, bale, & stack all the hay in the barn with no assistance. I use some older equipment, including a NH 1003 bale wagon, that can put 160 bale in the barn an hour. There are truck type bale wagons that have a 165 bale capacity, can run to the barn at 45 mph and stack in the barn 330 bales an hour. NOt only that they will build tiers that are compatible with a grab so you can load a truck out using a grab. There is no need to put up hay like we did in 1950.

Now we must produce for our market. If our market wants 55 pound bales that is what they will get. If they want Kelly Green hay they can buy off a trucker some western hay in 100 pound bales.

I do not dispute what you do. Still I take exception to some of your broad generalities about the small square bale. The equipment cost for each system is entirely different. The thing to remember is Net Income = Gross minus Expenses. Just as the western hay grower does not NEED the hay drying effect of the sun, when they have a 20 kt breeze and 15% RH. By the same token the small square hay producer does not NEED to move the volume of hay to realize a reasonable Net Profit. The Humid Eastern grower also will not have the cost of water that is usual in the Arid West.

The basic truths are universal but the application will be very different.

Enjoy your unique advantages. We in the more humid climate will have enjoy our own unique advantages.


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

Hay wilson ive been reading your posts for a long time , wether here on hay talk or ag talk and allways find them very informative and interesting , And yes i start out some mornings with the monitor at 30% and by the afternoon it says low moisture, but when it says rain that night you got to go.
THANKS THOMAS


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## chadl (Mar 23, 2009)

Im not as good as halls or hay wilson on writing but. In the area we live we dont have a ton of opportunities to put up alfalfa. If we recieve an opportunity to do alfalfa u have to be like a shark or they will plant it to corn. Halls has definately fllipped a swich for our area but its a good thing. We can sell small sqares to the bitter end at a good price but the mega farmer wants us in and out they dont want to wait on some small sqares to get er done they would rather have 3 4x4x8s getting it done and it is more practical at the end of the day for our area


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

Most of my short lived 25 year hay career was spent baling hay with small square balers. It has been our primary family business for 50+ years. We never owned inline small squares, but I have been around them. I have baled grass hay, alfalfa, and mixes in several different climates in Colorado and Kansas, i.e. mountains, front range, and the arid eastern plains. I am very familiar with the practices associated with small square bale equipment. I have personally been involved with the production of between 1 and 2 million conventional small square bales all for the purpose of resale. The number for my partner/Father is probably pushing 10 million.

Hay Wilson I respect your opinions and after reading some of your posts I have no doubt that you understand what it takes to produce quality hay. I 100% agree with you one most of your points. I still must disagree with some of your points and explain my opinions in depth if for no other reason than to educate others about some of the changing technologies that are quickly making operations like ours players in the domestic horse hay market. I feel that big bale conversion systems will chomp up more and more market every year as horse owners are more educated about these processes.

As far as your comments about curing and raking hay: Every operation in the field creates leaf loss, especially in alfalfa.

You stated: "Now in the Arid West there is not the need to expose a wide swath to the direct rays of the sun. Some of our University Friends tell us 75% of hay curing is done by the direct rays of the sun. The remaining 25% is more than adequate in the western arid conditions. In fact it is detrimental because the hay will require raking and thee is not enough humidity to rake without losing a high percentage of the leaves. Those of us who enjoy a morning of over 90% RH can rake to our hearts content with a minimal loose of leaves."

Only a few times have I been in the situation that there was not enough humidity to properly bale hay. Most of those situations were created by excessive wind. You forget that we are irrigated and our soils carry moisture. When the sun goes down, the ground cools and starts to release moisture to the atmosphere and the hay. Shortly after this process begins is when we start raking and baling hay. This is the first physical movement that the hay sees post cutting. We rake dual 16' or 18' windrows 1 time before baling. 32-36 feet worth of hay enters the baler with minimal leaf loss. Although we have done it several times, I have never, ever, ever seen a windrow that was raked at high moisture dry consistently throughout. The top ends up crispy and the bottom is raggy and mixing some wet with dry does not create consistent moisture in a bale. Thus we always try to bale hay as dew comes on in the evening, and not in the morning as it is coming off. One universal truth is that the wind blows EVERYWHERE in the U.S. and hay raked in the morning at high moisture for an evening baling session is susceptible to movement and leaf loss. Yes we have done it, and yes I have seen piles of hay the size of houses because we thought pre-raking might get it cured for that night. Cured hay that has enough moisture to bale properly also has enough moisture to rake properly. A twin rake set right with an aggressive angle and the proper speed rolls a windrow exactally 1½ times.

You also stated:" The idea of cutting a large square bale is interesting. True it will not have the small flakes found in small bales, and some animal owners may find this disconcerting. I say this because they feed say 3 flakes in the morning and 3 flakes in the evening. They are kind of expecting 15 to 20 flakes per bale."

This is another incorrect assumption about my process. I am guessing that you make bales that are 14"x18"x38" that weigh 55 pounds with 15-20 flakes : 175 cubic inches per pound of hay. My 16x17x24 usually has between 10-15 flakes and weighs around 55 pounds: 120 cubic inches per pound of hay. I guess the people who are feeding our hay have learned to count to 2 instead of 3. Now, I can legally load 24+ tons on a 48 foot flat bed and you can only load 19+ tons on a 48 foot flat bed. We can ship hay 1800 miles to Connecticut for less than $3 per bale. We can ship hay to central Texas for around $1 per bale.

You stated:" If color is a perceived indicator of quality among your customer base, you have a problem. "

If I don't have color, I have a HUGE problem. The blond buys the bale and she couldn't read a test if she wanted to. Most of the horse owners today are members of the SJPC (Sally Jane Pony Club) and they have the cash. I have chosen to market my hay to the majority of horse owners who are uneducated about everything that goes into hay grading, and grade hay based on things you can't even find on a test , #1 being color #2 being smell.

You Stated: "Under the old hay judging criteria color accounted for up to 15 points out of 100 potential points, of the hand scoring. There was also 100 points for the lab test results. So color ended up as 7.5% of the overall score. I guess in theory coal black hay could end up as the grand champion best of show over Kelly green hay. I understand color is now not even considered in the national hay show."

Winning a national hay award might put a medal on your chest to show off at the coffee shop, but it probably will not sell much hay. Until there is some consistency in NIR tests between labs, appearance and smell will sell more horse hay than any test. In fact, we have had more deals spoiled because of 2 inconsistent test results on the same sample than anything else. That is why we quit marketing hay to dairies years ago. Several NHA members really fired up the lab community this last year with a blind hay sampling that showed the HUGE inconsistencies.

If hay is baled properly, every operation will cause a loss of leaves on the multiple surfaces of the bale. If not, it was too wet. When it is baled by the baler, flipped three times by the stacker, unloaded in the barn, and then reloaded back onto a truck, leaves are lost all around the outside of the bale. Once again, there will be less leaf loss in the big bale process simply because there is 1/3 to ¼ the surface area per ton of hay.

There is no proper tier pattern on any bale wagon or accumulator to effectively and safely load flatbeds for long distance hauls with bale grabs. You might be able to load one up, but I would never travel very far when we did it. Maybe from the field to the barn, but not across the country. Exception being the 3-tie world.

When we slice 4x4's, they get pushed through knives and then put back together exactly the way they were. We have the ability to put perfect hay into our machine and have 200+ ton lots that are consistently the same. We can inspect every bale before it is put into the machine and as it is processed. Quality is a must and quality control is very easy. We are not limited to how lucky we can get in our own little world of production. We can seek out other great commercial producers and provide a product that is top notch. When a horse owner decides that they want a consistent high quality product year after year, they buy our hay. Farmer Bob and his 40 acres worth of tricks might make some good hay every once in a while, but when he shoves some crap onto his customers one year, they end up at our place.

Net Profit is very important to our business and although it is fun, I am in it for the money. Where we are located, most of our irrigated ground is 125 acre pivots. Every day that the water is off costs us on the next cutting. We must get in and get out and cannot play around with a few acres and a few bales everyday. We are small fish compared to the big producers in Utah, Idaho, Oregon, Washington, and California. We are also the closest source for Western hay to much of the East.

I hold firm to my opinion that properly baled and sliced hay can easily be better quality than conventionally baled small squares. This statement is backed by years of production with small balers and several thousand tons worth of production and sales of sliced bales all over the South and Eastern U.S. Our business has been growing exponentially and we are just trying to keep up. The phone rings and they say send another load please.

Once again: Unless you have actually stood in front of one of these machines and watched the right kind of hay run, you have no business making any kind of judgement about the quality of the process or the bales/hay. My doors are always open and you can take your best shot at picking my process apart. You better bring a 12 pack and your A game.


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## kfarm_EC_IL (Aug 5, 2008)

I resemble the farmer Bob statement. And the large Wal-Mart concept can also work I the favor of the horse owners you discuss that want to see where their hay is coming from and how it is put up. They own factories don't necessarily want to see one in operation.

My stick is smaller than everyone's. I'm the weakest member of my very weak tribe. So I'm in competition with myself. Let's get back to why rebale.

We rebale due to time and conditions. I have little time due to the diversity of our operation. Time schedules become important to us and our operation. Again I say this from my operations point of view which depending on the day may or may not be the best or worst around. And the weather it just stinks in general! We can dictate quality at an easier pace in November than in July.

But and here is the big but everything being perfect here on our farm I would rather handle the bales only once. Less input and more profit. Nothing is ever perfect and that is why I like it!

So now that you can really see that I'm small time and poke a little fun my way. We don't use a rebaler. Unless I could be called that. I unroll a store round bale and go to town. It works for me just as the various management styles suit different operations.

The great thing here is being able to look at the various techniques and see which one might work for my farm. Love that. Learned a lot from everybody. Maybe someone might see what I'm doing and say man that is a waste of time. Good then I have helped someone.

Mark (Farmer Bob


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Some size their equipment to match the needs of the crop. When I was much younger, a friend of mine near Vernon Texas used to run 4 balers every night. He used an accumulator behind each baler. Worked well for him in his time and customer base. 
There is a Mike inIdaho who runs three big balers every night for 21 days. He has more land in farm service roads than I farm!

My adjustment, when I went to day time baling only, was to size my fields to match the 3 hours I have to bale during the day. To further limit my exposure, this time of year I do not have more than 2 fields curing. This time of year it can take 5 days to cure alfalfa. 
I can usually start hay harvesting the last week of March. That will be real rabbit hay, with close to a 200 RFV. This goes to my customers with dairy goats. Because Mother Nature dictates when I can cut there are some years that the last field of the first cutting, (well into full bloom) is cut about the time the first field first cutting is ready for the second cutting, (first bloom is showing). Though that last week of March first week of April field will be allowed to go to half bloom before it's second cutting, to allow the roots to build carbohydrates.

I make no claim to knowing how to put up hay. I do make adjustments as I learn and as conditions change. I continiously learn new information.


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## river rat (Jan 16, 2009)

Halls Hay Quote When a horse owner decides that they want a consistent high quality product year after year, they buy our hay. Farmer Bob and his 40 acres worth of tricks might make some good hay every once in a while, but when he shoves some crap onto his customers one year, they end up at our place.

I like your post its very well written and you obviously took great care to make yourself understood which makes me wonder about the farmer Bob statement. Do you put all small producers in farmer Bobs catagory or are you referring to a particular farmer Bob that the rest of us don't know? I think maybe a few of this Bob charactors customers ended up at this small producers place by mistake instead of yours. Should I just give up haying and send them your way? Keep writing I really do enjoy your posts.


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

We are small producers.







It just amazes me what some people can sell as "horse hay." If you are on this forum, you probably are not a "Farmer Bob".


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

Tim - It's been bothing me for about 2 weeks - what is that picture of in all your posts? I hate to sound like an idiot, but I've stared at that thing from all different angles.....

Most of the "Farmer Bob" types have just a few hayfields that have been hay for about 30 years, and what they can bale off there is all horse hay. Fertilizer is normally a foreign word to them, since we all know that hay doesn't need fertilizer..... I chuckle at the guys who use 1 ton of lime when they plant alfafa, and that's the last they'll use for the life of the stand. As if you don't need to test for proper pH, or need to maintain it. How about this - if what you bale is a grass hay, and you know it's not timothy, it HAS to be orchardgrass, right? Makes trying to sell the real thing much harder.

Rodney


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

I am pleased you do not believe I am trying to pick a fight. Your machine should work just fine here with a few side issues. 
Here no one bales at night, & 80% of the hay is put up as round bales.

One thing I do know for sure is raking hay with a 90% to 100% humidity eliminates 99.9% of leaf loss. That is humidity down at the windrow. In fact we loose more leaves going through the conditioning rollers than we do raking, when conditions are right. Cured hay at >90% humidity will be just a little above the magic 40% hay moisture where leaf loss kicks in. Wet with dew the moisture is even higher and there is no problem. 
I have had some difficulty convincing our university types of that little gem. I am not sure some of them ever associated micro climate humidity with hay moisture.

As far as I know there is only one large baler in the county and he tends to burn his barns.

My comments about rebaling are really about unrolling round bales and stuffing it into a square baler.

I will enlighten you to the fact that bermudagrass will shatter more leaves easier than alfalfa ever thought of. True bermudagrass has a higher percentage of leaves. 
A bale of bermudagrass stems will look great to the casual horse owning hay buyer, while alfalfa stems looks like a bundle of sticks. 
Still rebaling here would be a whole lot better if they would spray water on the hay about 15 minutes ahead of the rebaling operation. 
One management tool I have is I can rake a third, of a field on the morning of baling. This puts that surface dew inside the windrow, which delays leaf shatter. I will be baling as the moisture goes below 14% and start on the morning raked windrow and the moisture goes right back up to 18%.

To put out artificial dew I know HarvestTech has a machine that injects water into the windrow. I have seen a picture of a tank truck with a large curved boom on the drivers side, with all kinds of spray nozzles. Ether can work.

Here and there I have seen large square bales of alfalfa, from all over the west. It is amazing how many of those high testing Kelly Green hay bales do not show leaves on the outside. I gather the large square baler does not loose the leaves but the shattered off leaves are baled into the interior of the bale. Which makes no difference to a dairy using TMR feeding. Makes a big difference to the little blond feeding a few flakes at a time.

The big advantage I have is everything I sell goes at a retail price. Green perceiving hay buyers are quickly educated when Dobbin devours slightly bleached hay and use the pretty hay for bedding. A dubious new customer I will give two bales of hay and tell them to feed it beside that other hay. They will come back.

As to horse owning hay customers, there are only a very few who I will sell alfalfa too. Only if they have a wet mare, a skin and bone animal, are in daily training for rodeo events, or for the track. 
The casual horse can not burn up all the energy in alfalfa. The usual owner of a pet horse will also feed sweet feed, protein cubes and/or some magic elixir. All those horse need is low quality hay. I sell then 12% CP hay and tell them to quit feeding all that stuff out of a sack.

I may make fun of horse owners, but I must say they can learn.


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

Rodney
The picture is of the paddles on the the hay press that hold the "log" while it is being strapped. It was just a cool picture to make people say "what the heck is that."
I will attach a full picture.

Wilson, big balers can definitely make bales that hold leaves on the outside of the bale, it is just a matter of baling it right. I will try to take a picture of the alfalfa that we are pressing tomorrow. It is premo stuff that has leaves everywhere and flakes beautifully. 
After opening several thousand big bales, the way we bale hay has changed a bit. IF we are going to error, it will be to the dry side. A point too high of moisture will brown the center of a big bale. 
The majority of horse owners feed hay that is really too good. I think most of our alfalfa is fed as a daily supplement with coastal in the south. A flake or two and all the coastal they can eat. Coastal is reasonably priced in some of the southern states.


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## leo (Apr 29, 2009)

i guess i dont have to make a dicision today big bales are all baled with acid to keep ph down so the bale sweats the hay seems to go up in moisture in bale maybe im crazy shitty drying windows so to expand leanin towards slicer lots of big bales around thanks for all of the info since i got this computer blew my mind how big our industry is


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## Production Acres (Jul 29, 2008)

tim, looks like you have already taken the guarding off the strapper as well;.) One of the other things we did to improve the strapper that you might want to condsider is mounting a air hose in the bottom. we control it with the shut off valve such that it only blows just enough to keep the debri buildup off the bottom corner of teh arch. Sure works good! attached pictures!


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## HALLSHAY (Nov 30, 2008)

A picture of us pulling squares out of a van and a picture of some big bale alfalfa showing plenty of leaf. This hay was even a touch dry. The third picture is of the littlefield hay hooks. Just happened to pick the worst bale to take a picture of.


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