# Topdressing Grass Hay



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I go back and forth on whether this is a good thing to do. This year we finished first cutting early and I topdressed the first area with 65-0-0-24S. Just made that hay this week, 332 bales of beautiful hay but at what cost? the fertilizer was 860$ for the 18 odd ac, fair number of tractor hours to cut, ted once, rake, flip, and bale. sells for 6/bale so gross revenue of about 2K.

Now if i did not topdress, I would still need to trim it with the bushhog for weed control for horse nettle and milkweed control if nothing else so there is going to be some tractor hours no matter what the choice. So here I am again debating on topdressing for third cutting. I read Trotwoods post the other day and automatically fell in line and scheduled the fertilizer for tomorrow morning.

But I continue to ponder Is it worth it? I am an agronomist by training but spent most of my studies on soils, not crops. I can tell you all sorts of things about how soils handle the nutrients, not so much with the plants. My assumption (meaning, I believe, but do not know) is that it is better to keep plants healthily growing to maintain vigor, suppress weed pressure etc so that even with marginal yields it makes overall economic sense to topdress. two years ago, I topdressed second cutting and never harvested a bale afterwards. however, it started to rain in oct and by Nov, I had a bumper crop, just no weather to harvest.

Just curious, what do others think, do you topdress with no better than a 50-50 chance of making any profit on the second and/or third cutting?


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Find a neighbor with chicken litter to get rid off. Lots cheaper and about the same results. I topdress for several years in a row, then soil test and use fertilizer to balance out the excess P you get with the litter...


----------



## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

We really just started top dressing regularly the last three years probably. Before that if we got good moisture through the summer we would cut grass a second time late summer or at some point in the fall. Yields would just seem ok and I think weeds were a little worse. I feel we get our money's worth out of the top dressing, IF you get timely rain. That is a big IF. We have lucked out the last few years for the most part. I only put down 40 units of N plus 10 lbs. of sulfur. This seems to give a heck of a stand with some rain and typically does not break the bank. I figure it adds roughly $1+ per bale in cost as long as we get a 30+ bale yield. Then after harvesting costs, twine, etc. I feel like we still do ok and have $3-4/bale in total costs. I should also add that we use most of our hay vs. selling it. I don't think I could replace the same quality hay for anywhere near the variable costs we have in it. Yes, I know there are fixed costs also but heck, if we all started worrying about such things we probably would all be buying our hay vs. growing it anyway, right?

Now, there have been a few times when certain farms didn't get timely rain. In those cases I do not think top dressing was worth it as I feel only you get below that 30 bale/acre mark you are getting closer to breaking even. I've baled some before at 15-20 bales/acre and I know that was probably losing money on a variable cost basis.

I should also point out that if the fields are fenced or I have the ability to graze cattle on them I typically only go for 2 cuttings. But a lot of our OG ground right now is on rented, unfenced around. I feel like to really fully get the max out of that ground 2-3 good cuttings/year make the most sense. Hayman, in your case where you fertilized, but didn't get moisture and didn't get a crop until it was too late to harvest, that would have worked fine for me (depending on which farm it was at) if I could have grazed it that fall. But that is just my situation.

In your case, I would say try backing the rate down to 40-50 lbs. I would bet that your yield wouldn't suffer that much but your per acre cost should come down considerably. Ive been told numerous times that putting anything more than 50 units of N on grass hay at one time is just wasting money. I don't know if that is true or not, but typically stick to 40-50 units (first and later cuttings).

You mention weeds - I admit I like cutting it more often than not for weed control also. I know you can bushhog but that has costs involved too. As does spraying for weed control.

A few times I have top dressed plus sprayed PastureGard. Talk about variable costs adding up and needing a really strong yield to breakeven on that.

As with many things I think a lot of it just comes down to luck and timing. We have been very lucky the last several years with adequate (for the most part) moisture. At least enough to get us through even if it would get dry for a month or so here and there.


----------



## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

That's a dome scratcher that I have been trying to quantify with the small amount of records that I had obtained.
First off, let me say that it is related to fertilizer, in-general, and not just N and S. Also, being new to haying and newer to fertilizing, my fert records are only for the past 3 years (unfertilized and 2 years of fertilizing), but I do have a baseline for my speculations. My records no not include rainfall or take growing conditions into the equation.
My fertilizer cost is @63 cents per bale to replace fertilizer used by the 50# of hay per bale. I don't know that I get a $.63 premium over any other hay grown in my area because $3-4 hay is the norm here, so it MIGHT appear to be a $.63 loss over not fertilizing... BUT, my cost-of-production dropped by $1.03 per bale due to spreading the cost to mow, ted, and rake (per acre) out over more bales of hay...so the $.63 output is actually saving me $.40 per bale...I'm putting hay up cheaper and have more of it to sell (which can be good or bad depending on demand)
That's here and on my ground and missing a bunch of important variables, such as rainfall, heat, possibly an extra tedding for heavier hay, heavier hay more likely to get rain as it may need an extra day or two to dry, etc...
I can show the math if desired.

Mark


----------



## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

IMHO - it's a roll of the dice. We top dressed our Timothy this year in hopes of a second cutting, but dry has set-in and unless something changes, I think it will go dormant. Temps right now are cool, but rain is non-existent. I think the wild card is weather and that is aggrivated by over supply.

Good luck,
Bill


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Thanks for the comments.

Bill- in the 15 years I grew timothy, I never saw a justification for topdressing timothy. guess it is just the VA weather, it always goes dormant.

PaMike- no chicken farms here much and my place is in a public spring watersupply protection zone. I have always been leary of rank hay for horses which is why I never go above 65#N at one time.

I think that the extra growth stimulus from N topdressing does help with weed control. gets the grass ready to bale 2nd cutting before the weeds go to seed. it also seems to keep the stand filled in a little better which holds off weeds some. I don't do cattle and my fields are not fenced so grazing is not an option although I have surely hoped for that option some years. Guess I will just keep doing what i am doing till i get tired.


----------



## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

Here in the south if you're gonna make hay to amount to anything you have no choice but to fertilize. The weed competition here is a never ending battle and if you don't keep your grass vigorous the weeds will take the field. So here, it is spray and fertilize.


----------



## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Hayman1 said:


> Guess I will just keep doing what i am doing till i get tired.


 I hear ya, pretty much the plan here too. Your thoughts and concerns line very well with mine so I won't rehash. I think topdressing cool season grass after first returns measurable profit a little more than half the time if you only consider yields of the following cutting. If you prefer a longer view then it starts looking better.


----------



## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

I top dress after each cutting then on the last one I lime .


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Swv.farmer said:


> I top dress after each cutting then on the last one I lime .


do you lime everything every year? My soil test data (yearly) usually only call for lime every 3-5 years


----------



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I top dressed my new seeding orchard grass with 45lbs. of N after first cut back in May and it is now ready to be cut again. I have never had orchard grass grow back that quick so I am sold on top dressing but I will also say this is by far the best stand of orchard I have had. Hoping to take second cutting as soon as possible. I am wondering however if it would be worth top dressing after this cutting since the next two months are the hottest time of the year and the orchard might not grow much regardless?

As far as lime I typically need close to a ton per year to maintain the ph.


----------



## Swv.farmer (Jan 2, 2016)

If you use a lot of urea 46% nitrogen it will need lime.
I use 100 pounds to the acre after each cut.
Tripple 19 200 pounds to the acre end of February first week of March.


----------



## Northeast PA hay and beef (Jan 29, 2017)

So we don't normally chemical fertilizer at all on our grass fields. We try to make sure we hit each field with cow manure at least every other year. I guess the weather is that much different here in pa. As long as we get rain, our 2nd cutting yeilds about 2/3 of our 1st cutting. We also won't get enough dry weather to bale all of our fields if the yeilds were higher.


----------



## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Hayman1 said:


> I go back and forth on whether this is a good thing to do. This year we finished first cutting early and I topdressed the first area with 65-0-0-24S. Just made that hay this week, 332 bales of beautiful hay but at what cost? the fertilizer was 860$ for the 18 odd ac, fair number of tractor hours to cut, ted once, rake, flip, and bale. sells for 6/bale so gross revenue of about 2K.
> 
> Now if i did not topdress, I would still need to trim it with the bushhog for weed control for horse nettle and milkweed control if nothing else so there is going to be some tractor hours no matter what the choice. So here I am again debating on topdressing for third cutting. I read Trotwoods post the other day and automatically fell in line and scheduled the fertilizer for tomorrow morning.
> 
> ...


Just an update on two pieces of ground, both 18-19 ac. I spread 60-0-0-24S on one at $860 for fertilizer. made 332 bales worth $1,992, or $1132 after fertilizer costs were paid.

the other, I spread 60-60-60 at $1,589 fertilizer cost and made 458 bales worth $2,748, or $1,132 after fertilizer costs were paid.

Virtually no rain on the first batch, plenty on the second. I could have let the second batch grow more but I had to cut before the horsenettle went to seed.


----------

