# Rototiller vs Plow and Disc and Harrow, etc.



## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

Does anyone out there besides me use a rototiller for plowing hay fields? I used to moldboard plow and disc and harrow, and always thought of 3 point tillers as not tuff enough to handle more than a couple of acres at a time. Then a few years ago I ran into an old timer that turned me on to a rototiller brand called Northwest Tillers, and my perspective was changed. It took my a while to find a good used one that was the right size and model, but I finally did and I haven't hardly touched my conventional equipment since. It's possible that it's a little bit slower, and I realize that one method is never right for everyone, but in my opinion the advantages out weigh the disadvantages: It replaces at least three implements with one, it's easier on both the operator and the tractor, it finely tills, chops and buries the old sod leaving a ready to plant seed bed after a couple of passes, and it has no problem with sod bound ground that most plows have a difficult time with.

The one that I have is 8ft wide and has a basket roller on the back. I run it with my 100hp Kubota, and I wouldn't want any less power. I just tilled an 18 acre grass field with it this fall that I figure hasn't been plowed in 24 years, and was heavily sod bound. I tilled first pass at about 1.5MPH, and the second pass at about 2.75MPH. I'll leave it set for the winter (we don't fall plant here) and then till it one last time before planting it into a Timothy Orchard grass mix.

Does anyone out there do anything similar to this. Just curious.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Idaho Hay said:


> Does anyone out there besides me use a rototiller for plowing hay fields? I used to moldboard plow and disc and harrow, and always thought of 3 point tillers as not tuff enough to handle more than a couple of acres at a time. Then a few years ago I ran into an old timer that turned me on to a rototiller brand called Northwest Tillers, and my perspective was changed. It took my a while to find a good used one that was the right size and model, but I finally did and I haven't hardly touched my conventional equipment since. It's possible that it's a little bit slower, and I realize that one method is never right for everyone, but in my opinion the advantages out weigh the disadvantages: It replaces at least three implements with one, it's easier on both the operator and the tractor, it finely tills, chops and buries the old sod leaving a ready to plant seed bed after a couple of passes, and it has no problem with sod bound ground that most plows have a difficult time with.
> 
> The one that I have is 8ft wide and has a basket roller on the back. I run it with my 100hp Kubota, and I wouldn't want any less power. I just tilled an 18 acre grass field with it this fall that I figure hasn't been plowed in 24 years, and was heavily sod bound. I tilled first pass at about 1.5MPH, and the second pass at about 2.75MPH. I'll leave it set for the winter (we don't fall plant here) and then till it one last time before planting it into a Timothy Orchard grass mix.
> 
> Does anyone out there do anything similar to this. Just curious.


Yes I use a tiller instead of implements. I have done so for about eight years and I really get good results.

I do it a little different from you as I only till the ground once....but, I spray out the existing grass with glyphosate about 4-6 weeks before I till in the fall. I only till about 3 inches and that way I don't have deep compaction and no washing in hard rains. I roll it down with a Brillion packer before I seed.

I run about 2.5 mph when I am doing a total re-seed......but sometimes I need to thicken up a old stand of grass and when I do this I do not spray gly and I run over the ground pretty fast with the tiller where it is not a total tillage but just scuffs and loosens the soil and leaves most of the existing grass. Then I seed it down.

I got my start doing it this way from tips from Sod Farm people.

Regards, Mike


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

In my area and my soil types, you just created (and will add more in the spring) a hard pan, that will take years to correct. With the right conditions here, this hard pan could be like concrete. On top of having a drainage problem when it rains (or in the spring).

But................. your conditions and soil types could be much different.

Larry


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Idaho Hay said:


> Does anyone out there besides me use a rototiller for plowing hay fields? I used to moldboard plow and disc and harrow, and always thought of 3 point tillers as not tuff enough to handle more than a couple of acres at a time. Then a few years ago I ran into an old timer that turned me on to a rototiller brand called Northwest Tillers, and my perspective was changed. It took my a while to find a good used one that was the right size and model, but I finally did and I haven't hardly touched my conventional equipment since. It's possible that it's a little bit slower, and I realize that one method is never right for everyone, but in my opinion the advantages out weigh the disadvantages: It replaces at least three implements with one, it's easier on both the operator and the tractor, it finely tills, chops and buries the old sod leaving a ready to plant seed bed after a couple of passes, and it has no problem with sod bound ground that most plows have a difficult time with.
> 
> The one that I have is 8ft wide and has a basket roller on the back. I run it with my 100hp Kubota, and I wouldn't want any less power. I just tilled an 18 acre grass field with it this fall that I figure hasn't been plowed in 24 years, and was heavily sod bound. I tilled first pass at about 1.5MPH, and the second pass at about 2.75MPH. I'll leave it set for the winter (we don't fall plant here) and then till it one last time before planting it into a Timothy Orchard grass mix.
> 
> Does anyone out there do anything similar to this. Just curious.


you should post this in the thread power harrows that was created the other day. I don't have one but I wonder how good it would do here. No one in my area has anything like it that I know of.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

I thought about posting this there, but I didn't want to get that thread off on a rabbit trail as a power harrow is quite a bit different.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

too much limestone bedrock here. I have a 3 bottom 3pt plow which I would use if I was breaking ground that has been in sod forever, disc, roller harrow, pick up rocks till the cows come home. Got tired of that and bought a great plains nt drill and it has been working great. I am not happy with the overseeding, too spotty. I have about reached the position that for me, overseeding after the first year in production is a waste of time and seed. Better off killing it totally and re-establish with heavy seeding in two directions. Everything I have done that way I have been really pleased with. Have another field on the schedule for next august.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Idaho Hay said:


> I thought about posting this there, but I didn't want to get that thread off on a rabbit trail as a power harrow is quite a bit different.


i actually like the nwtiller better then the power harrows. But to me the way it tills is the main difference between the two. How deep will one till in your soil?


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

First pass in heavy sod it'll only go about 3-4 inches, but on second pass the top sod layer is gone, so it'll then go as deep as the tiller can go which is about 6 inches. here's a couple of videos that i did this fall on the field I was talking about in my first post. They're just crumby videos that I took with my phone, but the'll give you the idea.

This is first pass:






This is the second pass:


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## 8gross (Sep 12, 2011)

Have a pull type rotator that I use. 7ft working width and 400hp. More designed for land breaking as it'll chew through 6" trees. But it works good for breaking hayland and pastures. Working depth is around 4-5" and can go to 6" depth. Ground speed I'm at 3mph. After the initial breaking then twice over with a vibrashank, harrow and pack. Then one more time to harrow and pack to incorporate the seed. Hay fields that I have range from 10-25 acres so nothing big for me.


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## bool (Mar 14, 2016)

Idaho Hay said:


> I thought about posting this there, but I didn't want to get that thread off on a rabbit trail as a power harrow is quite a bit different.


Perhaps you might describe the different implements then, and what you see as the differences. My understanding is "power harrow" is a generic term for all such implements. There is the Lely Roterra type with vertical tynes that oscillate in pairs, the Rau Rototiller or Krone Turborotor type with a horizontal shaft bristling with rotating tynes, the Celli spade type, and who knows what else.

Roger


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

The way I understand it is like this: A rototiller has a series of horizontal tines that are attached to and driven by a horizontal shaft and is typically used for primary tillage (although with the roller basket on the back I use it for both primary and secondary tillage). To illustrate, this is a picture of my NW Tiller:









A power harrow has a series of individual vertical hubs that turn vertical tines such as illustrated in the image below, and are typically used for secondary tillage to prep the seed bed. I've never used one, but the way I understand it is that these would not work well for breaking ground, but as a finishing tool they do a wonderful job of leaving a level and finely tilled seed bed.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

I used to use a rototiller some but gave up because of the high upkeep costs. Started with a Northwest then went to a Terra Nova. Like the Terra Nova lots better but it was still expensive to maintain. There is a place for tillers but about the only place you see them being used here anymore is for field border cleanup. I went to a 3 point mounted disk for borders because it runs for a fraction of the cost.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

What do you mean by "high upkeep costs"? I bought mine used and had to do some initial work to it to get it back up to snuff, but other than that it's been pretty maintenance free. In the last 50 hours of operation I haven't had to do anything to it other than grease it, and the things that I have had to fix on it over the years have been because of it's age, not it's design. I'm sure a new one would run maintenance free for thousands of hours before repairs were needed.


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## cdhayman (Jan 25, 2011)

So I have a northwest tiller. 12 foot I think. We've probably put 2000 acres through it. In my opinion Jay is right. They are VERY expensive to maintain. Just to buy a set of belts this year was probably $700. Put some new sheaves on. I bet I spent $2000 on it this year alone. Blades are very expensive. Probably close to $1000 to change those out. They have a place and we will continue to use it when the need arises. We have changed a few things on our tillage strategy, when there is a grass field that needs to be rotated out, when possible we will terminate it in the fall with roundup and by spring all we need to do is disk it a few times and it works up beautifully. Sometimes we aren't able to get that done in the fall and are required to use the tiller in the spring. We usually plant a crop of 3-way and it will yield better in the fall terminated field since the nitrogen isn't as tied up in breaking down the sod. Initially we used the tiller on all the grass, but have found, like Jay says, it is just too expensive compared to our other options.


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## Jay in WA (Mar 21, 2015)

Blades, belts, gearbox's. The gearbox failed on the Northwest I had. Was a very expensive fix. On the Terra Nova the seal on the output shaft on the gearbox needed frequent replacement. A disk will run for a small fraction of the cost of a tiller.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

I hear what you're both saying, and I would agree that a rototiller has more to go wrong with it than a disc, but if the machine is in good order, and your belts and gears and sheaves and blades and etc. aren't on their last leg, you shouldn't be having to spend tons of time and money to keep it in the field. When I first picked mine up used, I had to replace a lot of that stuff as well, but now it just goes and goes. I will suggest that if you have lots of rocks in your fields, that you might find yourself tearing things up. As far as the effectiveness of a disc vs. a tiller goes, you would have to have pretty soft silty/sandy soil for a disc to chop the ground of as well. The biggest reason I like the tiller is because of how well it purees the sod, and to me, that makes it worth it. I'm getting a much better seed bed then I was able to before

I respect anyone's decision to use whatever method works best for them. Like I said at the beginning of this post, "one method is never right for everyone". I just wanted to throw this topic out there get some discussion on it.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Idaho Hay said:


> I hear what you're both saying, and I would agree that a rototiller has more to go wrong with it than a disc, but if the machine is in good order, and your belts and gears and sheaves and blades and etc. aren't on their last leg, you shouldn't be having to spend tons of time and money to keep it in the field. When I first picked mine up used, I had to replace a lot of that stuff as well, but now it just goes and goes. I will suggest that if you have lots of rocks in your fields, that you might find yourself tearing things up. As far as the effectiveness of a disc vs. a tiller goes, you would have to have pretty soft silty/sandy soil for a disc to chop the ground of as well. The biggest reason I like the tiller is because of how well it purees the sod, and to me, that makes it worth it. I'm getting a much better seed bed then I was able to before
> 
> I respect anyone's decision to use whatever method works best for them. Like I said at the beginning of this post, "one method is never right for everyone". I just wanted to throw this topic out there get some discussion on it.


I should have found this info last fall. I ripped, disked, disked, disked, cultipacked sod and out of 195 acres 145 was still quite bumpy. I'll disc 75 of that to plant in spring, but not sure getting a rototiller is worth it at that point. Because I won't do that much at once for many years I don't think.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

Around here, the norm has always been that when you plow up an old stand of hay, it takes a couple of years of working the ground to give the sod some time to decompose. So for at least one year we would plant oats and then cut it for hay. But oat hay is about half the quality of good grass hay. With the tiller, I can plow and plant the field back in the same year and forget about the oats. The sod is still there, it's just that it's so chopped and buried that it doesn't compromise field quality.


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## hillside hay (Feb 4, 2013)

This is where no till and a corn bean wheat hay rotation shine.
I only break ground if it too rough to hay. Once in a while we will run into some sod bound ground. I imagine that would be tough on a tiller. Bound ground I still moldboard but that will be corn on corn for two to three years. But that's my area. No till still cheapest option for me as annual hay has really knocked the weeds for a loop.


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## deerezilla (Nov 27, 2009)

The best tooI have is my optimizer 4000 better than any power harrow. It's all ground driven but does take some hp.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

deerezilla said:


> The best tooI have is my optimizer 4000 better than any power harrow. It's all ground driven but does take some hp.


Takes a bunch of ponies for that rig!

Regards, Mike


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Vol said:


> Takes a bunch of ponies for that rig!
> 
> Regards, Mike


even the optimizer 2000 requires a bunch of ponies. So while I'm sure it does a good job to find a tractor powerful enough to run it is more then I'm willing to do.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

That's one serious piece of tillage equipment. Their website says the 4000 is 42,000+lbs, 40 long and takes at least 425hp to run. I'm pretty sure my 100hp Kubota would even be able to transport it to the field. :lol:


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

That optimizer would be a mess here in Mass. The stones would have the discs and ripper teeth all messed up.. Strip ,stone,screen ,spread and seed then you will have a nice field.. But who can afford that? We just weed,feed and mow. You need dedicated fields for different crops unless it was stripped stoned and screened. We have the Connecticut Valley that runs the length of the river that is about the only nice patch of ground here the rest is either stone or sand that nothing grows on but red pine..


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## YODA (Oct 24, 2013)

When I bought my small place a few year back the pastures/hay fields had been overgrazed to the point the only thing that grew was weeds, but it had a thick sod layer. I killed the weeds and got the grass growing, but it was not pretty, I had the local agg folks come out and they recommend plow it under and start fresh. My neighbor plowed and disced it for me - about 12" deep, but it was still too rough to plant, so I got a tiller (Ansung Terraforce YJR074) Its heavy at about 1000lbs but my Bobcat CT 235 will run it fine. After having him plow tilling was easy. I did broadcast seeding at 2x recommended weight, dragged a chain harrow over and wheel rolled with the tractor. Did very well.

I did a second field later without plowing, but it took about 4 slow passes to get the sod broken up. First two left golf ball size clumps everywhere. Final pass was smooth and down 7". One thing my tiller can do is level ground by carrying dirt with it. I tighten down the back door so it compressed and caries material as I go. Plowing and disc were way faster, but tiller leaves a better seed bed.

Where I am headed with this is the field that was plowed 12" is doing better than the field I just tilled. So perhaps using both tools works well. Just my thoughts


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

YODA said:


> Where I am headed with this is the field that was plowed 12" is doing better than the field I just tilled. So perhaps using both tools works well. Just my thoughts


Is compaction a possibility for the difference?

Larry


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

I understand that plowing 12" vs. 7" could make a noticeable difference if you have hard pan issues, but how could a rototiller cause more compaction than turning and disking? Especially if both are working the ground to roughly the same depth?


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Depending on your location and soil a good deep plowing is actually beneficial. If you have thick rich sod then it will definately be good to turn it over to replenish and break up the sod and soil. If you have a hard clay base it will soften up that base a little more helping with water drainage and evaporation. But you need the proper soil type and geographical location so as not to cause a dust bowl effect again. NE has mediocre soil conditions so either works. Its the cost of doing the job that usually determines what gets done as well as time/weather.
I grow crops as well as making hay and it is always hard to control weeds in either case.
Here there are a large number of "organic" lovers sooooo they want everything pesticide free all natural, no GMOs bla bla bla... Well organic seed sucks and barely germinates only to produce sub standard produce... And weeding... Well thats just nuts...most know where im going so i will not say any more but you do need to do a bit of research and experiment and record your results. 
Then you will know what works for you .


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Did someone say rototiller?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I can go faster with mine.... 

Regards, Mike


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## haystax (Jul 24, 2010)

We have used rototillers for 20+ years. We started with Howard and now have a 13' Kuhn and it is a BEAST! Lots of Northwest tillers here too, most have lost a gearbox and eat belts. They are heavy duty but not very well put together.

That said all tillers are expensive to operate. Kuhn barefaced blades are $30+ each. Last about 250 acres. We run really slow on the first pass and figure 2 acres/hr. Have about 1000 acres on our Kuhn and no breakdows so far but fuel and tractor hours aren't cheap. But 10 passes with a disc isn't cheap nor effective.

We till, deep rip 2 ways, finish rip, sometimes power harrow, float sometimes, then schmeiser ring roller + 60" pipe roller until I'm happy with compaction then plant.

Typical rotation is grain-alfalfa-grass all no-till fall seeded. It's usually 10+ years between tillage passes in this rotation. Seems to work well enough. Other guys are having good luck skipping grain hay and plowing sod under and straight from grass to alfalfa

I budget a month of time and 2000 gallons of diesel for tillage. When either of those is used up I throw up my hands and plant.


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## Snow Farmer (Aug 30, 2011)

Few of the folks responding to this topic have mentioned what kind of ground they have to work with.

My fields are all a thin layer of topsoil over clay.

I have had good success using only a 7' rotovator in one field, went down a deep as the rotovator would go (about 6 or 7") That was really slow, and I still had to harrow it before seeding, but the crop took real well (barley for cover, plus a mixture of grass for hay) and the field still produces quite well 5 years on.

The field next to it, I plowed with a moldboard one year in the fall, rotovated in the spring, then harrowed. It did not work out so well. The field ended up with a kind of a crust, and the grass was real patchy or should I say that there was as much open ground as there was grass. It took a couple of years to get a half decent crop of hay off it.


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## Idaho Hay (Oct 14, 2016)

Good point Snow Farmer. Almost all my Ground is 8-10 inches of silty loam top soil with a clay sub soil below that. It's great for growing grass (timothy, orchard, etc.), but not very good for growing alfalfa. I've fought hard pan issues and drainage issues, but never top soil compaction or crusting. The rototiller works great in this soil type, and I would say that it works good in any kind of loam to sandy soil type. Though I don't really have any experience trying to grow in clay or extra thin top soil, I could see where tilling it too fine or too deep could cause some issues with crusting or compaction.


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## YODA (Oct 24, 2013)

r82230 said:


> Is compaction a possibility for the difference?
> 
> Larry


I think the difference is in the plowed field the sod was buried under and in the tilled field, the sod is mixed in the top 8 inches and competing for the nitrogen as it decomposes. Just a thought - could be wrong. As for hard pan or a layer trapping water in the upper layers, that is a good things here given our arid desert climate. Without irrigation nothing but weeds grow.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

We are no till just shy of 30 years. But prior to that I did a lot of plowing and disking spent half my life doing that. I remember when I dealer started pushing rototillers here they never worked out. The way I was always brought up with tillage. For example you plowed and you left it dry completely then you disc and you left it dry completely maybe then disk and Packer and you left it dry completely then maybe the culti mulcher, then you left it dry completely and you planted it. Back an hour tillage days we thought that's what makes a good seed bed. Handling ground wet destroys tilth. Here The tillers call the wet ground up worked it and worked it and when it was done it was like concrete. like around here in the late sixties, big tractors came out Farmers bought big tractors and all their tillage tools were only eight or 10 foot wide. So they have them all together one behind the other. It ruin the soil because they did not give it a chance to drive between tillage passes


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