# Might Give GrazonNext HL a Try...



## VA Haymaker

Per the label, 18 month waiting period before the hay can be moved off the farm here in VA. If I spray in June, that would put me into not selling from this field until December the following year, but it would likely be some nice weed free hay...

Thinking mostly about horse nettle and some other hard to kill weeds. Presently using Pasturegard, 24d and Weedmaster (diacamba and 24d).

I'll have the storage, December prices should be good for quality hay...

Thoughts???


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## Farmerbrown2

But wouldn’t the hay you are selling in December still have the Grazon in it . I think the label means when you harvest not when you sell. Maybe I’m confused.


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## Trotwood2955

I've wondered the same thing and have yet to get a clear answer. I've used Grazon selectively because of the residual and having to keep hay from those fields separate for sales and manure management.

Often our hay might sit in the barn for a year or two before fed or sold (always try to keep a year of extra on hand and keep the oldest fed out first). Based on that the residual should be gone. But I tend to expect the residual is in the hay regardless of how long it sits. And then once it hits the ground again in the form of manure the residual carries forward from there.

Be nice if the "let sit in the barn awhile" theory was true. If it is I'd use grazon like crazy on everything.


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## Hayman1

Grazon is my favorite herbicide. Gets just about everything. However, I used to tell my customers that I used it because they did not want toxic weeds in their horse hay. I told them about all the cautions, no mushroom guys, not veg farmers getting manure, etc. Then one day, I am making a winter delivery to my biggest customer. Manure in rolloff. You know what that means. they did not listen or they forgot or did not think. In any case, only use it for spot spraying now.

Unfortunately guys, I think the 18 months is the time it takes to break down in soil and does not mean you can keep in your barn for a year and then sell... That said, I think the prohibition is bs. Producers should be able to provide a written statement and then the onus is on the buyer. For cryin out loud, Grazon is the only thing that absolutely smokes horsenettle and it is good on all winter annuals.


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## VA Haymaker

farmerbrown said:


> But wouldn't the hay you are selling in December still have the Grazon in it . I think the label means when you harvest not when you sell. Maybe I'm confused.


December 2019 - 18 months from application in June 2018. The label clock starts clicking when you apply IMHO.



Trotwood2955 said:


> I've wondered the same thing and have yet to get a clear answer. I've used Grazon selectively because of the residual and having to keep hay from those fields separate for sales and manure management.
> Often our hay might sit in the barn for a year or two before fed or sold (always try to keep a year of extra on hand and keep the oldest fed out first). Based on that the residual should be gone. But I tend to expect the residual is in the hay regardless of how long it sits. And then once it hits the ground again in the form of manure the residual carries forward from there.
> Be nice if the "let sit in the barn awhile" theory was true. If it is I'd use grazon like crazy on everything.


My view with these labels, read instructions - follow instructions. Key words "18 months" and "treated"

My guess is the herbicide has a half life of some period. No caution that I can find warns against post 18 months.

From the label, "For control of broadleaf weeds and certain woody plants on rangeland, permanent grass pastures (including grasses grown for hay*), Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) acres and wildlife management areas in these sites.
*Hay from grass treated with GrazonNext HL within the preceding 18-months can only be used on the farm or ranch where the product is applied unless allowed by supplemental labeling"

There is more on the label, but IMHO reads along the same lines.

The I dea is to blast these weeds, at least one time, with something more effective and with a residual. A post first cutting June application would get you into late winter demand for selling.

Bill


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## VA Haymaker

Hayman1 said:


> Unfortunately guys, I think the 18 months is the time it takes to break down in soil and does not mean you can keep in your barn for a year and then sell... That said, I think the prohibition is bs. Producers should be able to provide a written statement and then the onus is on the buyer. For cryin out loud, Grazon is the only thing that absolutely smokes horsenettle and it is good on all winter annuals.


I think the label is pretty clear (to me - which might really be muddy... LOL), hay, after 18 months from application, can be moved off Farm - sold.

From my view point, I'm not concerned the residual might still be in the hay after 18 months. I'm interested in selling the hay without getting busted by the EPA or some other agency. It's interesting that in TN, via the supplemental label, they can sell/move the hay off Farm with no restriction - as I read the label. So the haymaker in Bristol TN can immediately sell his hay, but his neighbor in Bristol VA can't for 18 months. The label does say "do not use..." "... for export, in compost, for seed production", but it does not impose the 18 month for movement off the farm.

So if we had a supplemental label for VA, like TN, GrazonNext HL would be my go to herbicide regardless of the residuals.


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## Trotwood2955

My thoughts are like Hayman. I have still sold plenty of Grazon treated hay. The buyer just knows the implications before it gets loaded on the trailer. I just don’t like that I have to keep square bales from Grazon treated fields stored separate for sorting purposes. Both any I sell or we use ourselves. Some of our horse manure goes out in the spring for gardens in the area and what I spread myself I don’t want going on any bean ground. Round bales I don’t worry about sorting.


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## LaneFarms

Grazonnext is becoming a problem for vegetable growers down here. The field where we had watermelons last year had been sprayed several years prior to planting in melons and we had leaf yellowing show up in some areas of the field. This was a bermuda grass hay field prior to melons and is now in bermuda again. I will never use it again.


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## somedevildawg

Same here, most folks have steered clear for those reasons.......


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## endrow

LaneFarms said:


> Grazonnext is becoming a problem for vegetable growers down here. The field where we had watermelons last year had been sprayed several years prior to planting in melons and we had leaf yellowing show up in some areas of the field. This was a bermuda grass hay field prior to melons and is now in bermuda again. I will never use it again.


Amen everyone up my way hates it . Has caused its share of nightmares . Everyone's dirt is different the residual lingers in our dirt for years . If you ever want to plant anything else in the field don't use it . We picked up rented land and lost our ass on that peace of ground because some ding bat sprayed grazon on grass hay . took us a year to find out why nothing would not grow . It should never be used were someone would want to grow crops . &#8230;. At a growers meeting a Rep from Dow said if you spray it and something goes wrong you are responsible . If you sell it to the neighbor his horse manure ends up on a vegetable truck patch , they are coming back to you the guy who sprayed it.


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## BWfarms

There is something to be said about a five year old empty container and how it still smells like herbicide. The HL stuff is pretty potent. A buddy of mine's Dad sprayed their pastures with Grazon and some drift made it to his garden plot (empty at the time). For the next 2 years he had trouble with plants not growing.

I used a jug that had been opened 2 years ago this spring, didn't up the rate and it was as potent as fresh. I don't use it every year and you can tell where I missed each passing year.

As Beef guy, it's a top weapon to have. Only use the stuff if your fields are in trouble.


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## FarmerCline

As others have said I think the 18 months is the time period during which the hay that is harvested is not to be sold. I never even thought about it the other way as common sense would be the hay harvested during that time period contains the residual even if it sits in the barn until the 18 months is up.

I will not use Grazon or other similar residual herbicides because I don't want to worry about selling hay that has residual to carry over in the manure. My largest customer of the past 5 years sells the horse manure to be composted.....didn't find this out until recently. When I found that out it hit me that it was a good thing I don't use Grazon or other residual products......never even crossed my mind before that Grazon treated hay wouldn't be marketable to her. I'm guessing most large horse operations dispose of the manure in a similar manner so that would severely limit your market for Grazon treated hay. Probably would not be good to sell the hay to a feed store either as you don't know what the end user is going to do with the manure or if they were made aware of the residual. Looking at it that way the 18 month restriction on Grazonnext from selling the hay is understandable. What I can't figure out is why Grazon P&D doesn't have the same restriction as it has the same long lasting residual in the hay.

The other reason I will not use Grazon is I don't want the long lasting residual in the soil like LaneFarms was talking about. I found out that even four years after spraying Grazon P&D it will still affect soybeans planted in the field.

For harder to control perennial broadleaf weeds Pastureguard and Remedy work quite well for me with no residual to worry about.

Hayden


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## Lewis Ranch

Use p+d, it doesn't have the same problem and does a good job.


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## endrow

Lewis Ranch said:


> Use p+d, it doesn't have the same problem and does a good job.


 Are you sure it doesn't have the same problem,. I would do a little research and really be careful with that one as well.


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## endrow

Trotwood2955 said:


> My thoughts are like Hayman. I have still sold plenty of Grazon treated hay. The buyer just knows the implications before it gets loaded on the trailer. I just don't like that I have to keep square bales from Grazon treated fields stored separate for sorting purposes. Both any I sell or we use ourselves. Some of our horse manure goes out in the spring for gardens in the area and what I spread myself I don't want going on any bean ground. Round bales I don't worry about sorting.


 Why is it you don't worry about sorting the round bales


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## Vol

If you read the GrazonNext HL label, you will notice 11 states listed as less restricted on moving treated forage "off the farm".

Why? It has much to do with the environmental factors.

The following is from the Supplemental Labeling for GrazonNext HL;

"Breakdown of aminopyralid in plant residues or manure is more rapid in warm, moist soil conditions and may be accelerated under supplemental irrigation."

If you notice, most of these states listed on the Supplemental Label are in the Sunbelt area of the Southeast where there is a lot of sunny days(higher growing degree numbers) with high temps and ample rainfall.

When you compare this to other parts of the country....like the Northeast, where there are less sunny days and lower temps, it is easier to understand the need for supplemental labeling instead of the general "one size fits all".

http://counties.agrilife.org/denton/files/2013/08/GrazonNext-HL-Supplemental-Label.pdf

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

endrow said:


> Are you sure it doesn't have the same problem,. I would do a little research and really be careful with that one as well.


Different active ingredients between P&D and Next HL.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

Trotwood2955 said:


> My thoughts are like Hayman. I have still sold plenty of Grazon treated hay. The buyer just knows the implications before it gets loaded on the trailer. I just don't like that I have to keep square bales from Grazon treated fields stored separate for sorting purposes. Both any I sell or we use ourselves. Some of our horse manure goes out in the spring for gardens in the area and what I spread myself I don't want going on any bean ground. Round bales I don't worry about sorting.


The Chemical Consultant used by the local coop said that grazon in the bottle as long as it is not in direct sun is good"forever". So since there is no metabolic processes going on in your barn stored hay, I fail to see how it has a half life. Now, it your customer sells bedding straw that has horse pee with grazon on it to a mushroom grower and it wipes him out, there are going to be consequences and they will involve you. The way the law is written you are the guilty party, can't transfer it to the buyer which is what I think is wrong with the law. You have no control over the manure and oh, yeah, guess what they spray on their paddocks? Grazon next


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## Hayman1

Good to see everyone's thinking and their blood is moving this am!


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## Trotwood2955

Endrow - I don't sort the round bales because I don't sell round bales and we don't feed them to horses. So it's only getting recycled back on our own pastures through feeding/manure. Not off the farm. I still use it selectively though because I don't want all my cow hay treated with Grazon and what that would do to my pastures. We have an abundance of clover and I don't want the hay feeding/manure to have but so much impact on that.


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## slowzuki

Aminopyrolyd and Triclopyr products are the two main options we have to selectively control smooth bedstraw here in the northeast. Left to its own devices bedstraw dominates fields and lays down seed in June that lasts well enough to germinate the following year.

Both products have carryover and are on target lists of enviromental groups as in this climate they can remain active for several years. In Canada due to the extra issues with registering them, they cost a fortune. 1000$ for a jug of garlon, 3000$ for Milestone. Hardly worth messing with here.


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## Vol

I just now got off the phone with Dow Chemical.(1-800-263-1196).

I just wanted to clarify what I thought was a good question about the 18 month on farm restriction in some states regarding our beloved hay.

There are NO restrictions on GrazonNext HL treated hay after 18 months due to the drop in level of the active ingredients to affect some garden plants etc. through the use of manure.

Yes, GrazonNext HL is time sensitive (1/2 life) in hay. Evidently the hay affects the chemical to degrade whereas in the bottle it is different.

So YES....you can hold GN HL treated hay for 18 months and 1 day and then sell it off the farm.

One other thing is that the clock starts ticking at the TIME OF APPLICATION.....not the day of harvest. So 18 months and one day from the time of application, restricted states can then market the hay off the farm.

I hope this helps you be more clear with your customers. I repeated this question to Dow three times, asked in different approaches so that I could be perfectly clear in reporting back to HayTalk as it is a critical question for many.

Regards, Mike


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## Trotwood2955

Thanks Mike for that excellent information. That makes me feel at ease around how I've been trying to manage it with not feeding or moving off farm until well past application date window. I was starting to get nervous reading this thread!


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## r82230

Trotwood2955 said:


> Thanks Mike for that excellent information.


+1

Larry


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## Vol

GrazonNext HL has been unfairly vilified imo. The plant back for corn is ONE year....the plant back for soybean(legumes) is TWO years. If you are having residual effects beyond this, it is most likely the real villain has been the applicator who failed to administer the proper dosage and over applied the plainly stated amounts. I am sorry to say that, there is a substantial segment of folk in our industry that read poorly or don't even bother to read the herbicide labels. This can cause someone a problem with a sensitive crop.

Here in Tennessee, I have broadcast Grazon P+D and planted back into alfalfa 2 or 3 years afterward....I just cannot remember which at this time. I don't use P+D because here it just does not kill horsenettle like Next HL does. Of course, there is nothing out there that will kill horsenettle like GrazonNext HL. Many will make horse nettle sick or die back, but it will soon return.

I use GrazonNext for horse nettle solely......I use PastureGard HL for Maypop(Passion Vine) soley....these are the only two herbicides that I know will kill those two nuisance invaders.

Pretty much everything else, I can take care of with less expensive herbicide.....but there are other very noxious weeds that are hard to get rid of that some of our members are dealing with that need the strong residual.....Tropical Soda Apple comes to mind.

GrazonNext works well on Dogfennel and bindweed also.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

Vol said:


> I just now got off the phone with Dow Chemical.(1-800-263-1196).
> 
> I just wanted to clarify what I thought was a good question about the 18 month on farm restriction in some states regarding our beloved hay.
> 
> There are NO restrictions on GrazonNext HL treated hay after 18 months due to the drop in level of the active ingredients to affect some garden plants etc. through the use of manure.
> 
> Yes, GrazonNext HL is time sensitive (1/2 life) in hay. Evidently the hay affects the chemical to degrade whereas in the bottle it is different.
> 
> So YES....you can hold GN HL treated hay for 18 months and 1 day and then sell it off the farm.
> 
> One other thing is that the clock starts ticking at the TIME OF APPLICATION.....not the day of harvest. So 18 months and one day from the time of application, restricted states can then market the hay off the farm.
> 
> I hope this helps you be more clear with your customers. I repeated this question to Dow three times, asked in different approaches so that I could be perfectly clear in reporting back to HayTalk as it is a critical question for many.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Really great info Mike. So an Oct 1 application after last cutting cleans up all winter annuals and sell the following fall. Good to know.


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## somedevildawg

I know of a pond not far down the road that the folks could not irrigate out of for 5 yrs......severely stunted back to back crops of melons and peanuts. Supposedly grazon was the culprit, but with many of these things, we don't know exactly what happened.....only interviews with various people lead to the discovery of grazon being used before a deluge. Most certainly could've been something else, don't think the owners were willing to chance it again, or the insurance company  not sure which.....


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## Vol

somedevildawg said:


> I know of a pond not far down the road that the folks could not irrigate out of for 5 yrs......severely stunted back to back crops of melons and peanuts. Supposedly grazon was the culprit, but with many of these things, we don't know exactly what happened.....only interviews with various people lead to the discovery of grazon being used before a deluge. Most certainly could've been something else, don't think the owners were willing to chance it again, or the insurance company  not sure which.....


The following statement on the the GrazonNext HL label makes me highly suspect that a pond could not be used for 5 years because of GrazonNext.

"Breakdown of aminopyralid in plant residues or manure is more rapid in warm, moist soil conditions and may be accelerated under supplemental irrigation."

I think it is like you stated, "but with many of these things, we don't know exactly what happened".

I think that GN HL is a convenient scapegoat for many things that are otherwise hard or impossible to explain.

Regards, Mike


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## endrow

How to go to meeting a Dow Rep told us never to use these type products where crops would be grown. He said they should only be used in permanent pasture or permanent grassland


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## somedevildawg

Not sure how long the HL has been out but I'm purty sure this was about 7-8 yrs ago, so it may have been another......I know lots of folks have a bad taste in their mouth around these parts. I've only used it on pasture ground, it is a good herbicide....Lots of folk use it on pasture ground here.


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## somedevildawg

Wasn't that the reason Grazon was developed? To Graze On.....perhaps they knew something was a bit out of the ordinary with regards to the residual effects? Idk, just thinkin out loud....


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## somedevildawg

Besides that, it's raining cats and dogs here.....but it's good ditch hay curing weather so I jumped at the opportunity 7-8 days ago


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## FarmerCline

Vol said:


> GrazonNext HL has been unfairly vilified imo. The plant back for corn is ONE year....the plant back for soybean(legumes) is TWO years. If you are having residual effects beyond this, it is most likely the real villain has been the applicator who failed to administer the proper dosage and over applied the plainly stated amounts. I am sorry to say that, there is a substantial segment of folk in our industry that read poorly or don't even bother to read the herbicide labels. This can cause someone a problem with a sensitive crop.
> 
> Here in Tennessee, I have broadcast Grazon P+D and planted back into alfalfa 2 or 3 years afterward....I just cannot remember which at this time. I don't use P+D because here it just does not kill horsenettle like Next HL does. Of course, there is nothing out there that will kill horsenettle like GrazonNext HL. Many will make horse nettle sick or die back, but it will soon return.
> 
> I use GrazonNext for horse nettle solely......I use PastureGard HL for Maypop(Passion Vine) soley....these are the only two herbicides that I know will kill those two nuisance invaders.
> 
> Pretty much everything else, I can take care of with less expensive herbicide.....but there are other very noxious weeds that are hard to get rid of that some of our members are dealing with that need the strong residual.....Tropical Soda Apple comes to mind.
> 
> GrazonNext works well on Dogfennel and bindweed also.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Mike, my experience is with Grazon P&D and not GrazonNext....but I sprayed a field of fescue and 4 years later when I planted soybeans into it I still saw some damage to the beans. It was very obvious anywhere the boom overlapped and applied double rate as those beans never got over 6" tall......but the whole field was somewhat stunted. I know the application rate was correct as I did the spraying myself. No doubt there are many people who do not apply the correct amount but I'm going to venture to say different soil types is the main reason some producers like myself have had issues with a longer residual in the soil than what others have experienced.

Hayden


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## Vol

somedevildawg said:


> Not sure how long the HL has been out but I'm purty sure this was about 7-8 yrs ago, so it may have been another.


I happened to see today that GrazonNext HL received EPA approval in March of 2011.

Regards, Mike


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## somedevildawg

Purity sure it was before that.....damn time flies  keeps getting faster, almost warp speed now....


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## Hayman1

somedevildawg said:


> Purity sure it was before that.....damn time flies  keeps getting faster, almost warp speed now....


And you aren't that old Dawg, wait 20 years and see how fast it goes


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## reede

It was Forefront R & P in its previous life.


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## VA Haymaker

Thanks for the replies. Mike confirmed my read on the label - thx. I don't foresee a time when we plant anything but grass hay, legumes, corn, beans, etc, so any lingering residual is not much a concern.

On our scales is - sell hay when you cut and sell out, or hold hay until after the application time limit 18 months expires.

So with our Timothy, I see us making a normal cut in June. Begin selling that hay, but immediately spray GrazonNext. Hold any second cutting and the following June's first cutting until December (18 months) and sell. Year after that, start the cycle again.

Every other year, you're selling starting in June and then December the following year. If one were to overlap/alternate their field application - field to field, you'd have both June and December sales every year. If the residual is truly effective and GrazonNext HL is really as good as it gets for broadleaf weed kill, perhaps the 18 month wait can be managed for a steady supply of weed free hay for sale.

YMMV...

Bill


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## Hayman1

Actually, thinking about the timing of app with least impact on storage would be to spray Grazon Next 2-3 weeks after first cutting. That is the best time to smoke horse nettle and it will clean up any dock or pigweed at the same time along with plantain. Then overseed in fall in the bare spots as the impact on seeding will be worn off by then. Think I will give that a try and see what happens.

That way you have to quarantine second and third cutting if you are lucky to get it, and first cutting the following year. Then don't fertilize second cut and cut late, say mid sept.


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## SCtrailrider

I used Grazon P&D 3 years ago , had very clean fields, then stopped using it and went to 2-4-D, now 3 years later I am starting to get a good crop of horse nettles and a few other hard to get rid of buggers... I have considered going back to grazon but I'm tiring to get more legumes and will be putting out clover later.. so I think the grazon would kill off and prevent the clover & legumes.. I sprayed the horse nettle a couple weeks ago but it only pissed it off... for now I'm just going to clip it and figure out what to use that won't harm my legumes next year...

I loved how grazon kept things clean tho.....


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## BWfarms

Clover will come back, they are hardy that way.


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## FarmerCline

SCtrailrider said:


> I used Grazon P&D 3 years ago , had very clean fields, then stopped using it and went to 2-4-D, now 3 years later I am starting to get a good crop of horse nettles and a few other hard to get rid of buggers... I have considered going back to grazon but I'm tiring to get more legumes and will be putting out clover later.. so I think the grazon would kill off and prevent the clover & legumes.. I sprayed the horse nettle a couple weeks ago but it only pissed it off... for now I'm just going to clip it and figure out what to use that won't harm my legumes next year...
> 
> I loved how grazon kept things clean tho.....


 You can spray Pastureguard and plant legumes as soon as a month later since it doesn't have a residual in the soil. I have pretty good luck with Pastureguard controlling horsenettle.

Hayden


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## Vol

SCtrailrider said:


> I sprayed the horse nettle a couple weeks ago but it only pissed it off... for now I'm just going to clip it and figure out what to use that won't harm my legumes next year...
> 
> I loved how grazon kept things clean tho.....


If you didn't have nettle widespread, I would just spot spray the nettle with GrazonNext HL. That way there would be practically no residual to deal with nor hay that was affected.

Regards, Mike


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## Hayman1

Vol said:


> If you didn't have nettle widespread, I would just spot spray the nettle with GrazonNext HL. That way there would be practically no residual to deal with nor hay that was affected.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Yeah, I do that a lot, 2 ou grazon next in 3 gal water with sticker in a backpack. Just a whiff of spray will do. dont need to worry about a breeze. You would be amazed how much ground you can cover in 30-60 min and if you do it on a sunny day above 85 degrees you can see the results the following morning and get the ones you missed. get pig weed, thistle horse nettle and dock. If I get bored and there is a patch of plantain, it goes too.


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## endrow

Vol said:


> If you didn't have nettle widespread, I would just spot spray the nettle with GrazonNext HL. That way there would be practically no residual to deal with nor hay that was affected.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 That's what people started doing up this way


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## SCtrailrider

I hadn't thought about that, I will give that a try, now I need to find Grazon around here...


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## StxPecans

Been making my own pastureguard, 1 part vista, fluroxpyr and 3 parts remedy ultra (too lazy to look up active ingrediant).
8 oz an acre vista, 22oz an acre remedy.
I been getting generic vista for $130 a gallon and generic remedy for $50 a gallon. Using 10oz an acre of cheap non ionic surfactant. I spray it at 20gallons an acre. Ithink it comes out to under 20$ an acre and will kill pretty much everything. If just after weeds and not woody plants/brush vista alone worka good too cant remember my rate would have to look at spray log. With above mentioned mixture i have killed prickly pear cactus broadcasted at 20gal an acre.


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## FarmerCline

StxPecans said:


> Been making my own pastureguard, 1 part vista, fluroxpyr and 3 parts remedy ultra (too lazy to look up active ingrediant).
> 8 oz an acre vista, 22oz an acre remedy.
> I been getting generic vista for $130 a gallon and generic remedy for $50 a gallon. Using 10oz an acre of cheap non ionic surfactant. I spray it at 20gallons an acre. Ithink it comes out to under 20$ an acre and will kill pretty much everything. If just after weeds and not woody plants/brush vista alone worka good too cant remember my rate would have to look at spray log. With above mentioned mixture i have killed prickly pear cactus broadcasted at 20gal an acre.


 Will have to look into getting the generics and mixing my own. I'm paying $285 for 2.5 gallons of Pastureguard......at a quart per acre that gets pricey. Just sprayed about 50 acres last week.

Hayden


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## Farmerbrown2

I think I paid $118 per gallon from GroMark this spring and that was in gallons .. But I m likely will try to make my own also thanks for the idea.


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