# ive owned a hay baling business for 5 years and i need some tips on how to make it really successful financial wise plz help



## fmfracer44

okay well my dad used to bale hay for a big commercial hay harvestor for 12 years back in the late 80s and late 90s. he then decided to start his own custom hay service of baling hay and me and brother have been a part of it ever since. basically what i want to ask all the experienced hay harvesting business owners is how does my dad and our family carry upon our business to make it successful? we feel like each year gets a little better but we make close to 100k in the hay season and only be left with like 20k when its over.... i want advice on how to save our money better? what are good strategies to saving money in a business like this? we do owe money on our equipment still but that doesnt mean we should be left with only 20% of our revenue. plz help i want advice to help my dads business.

we live in central california
we do commercial hay for whoever needs service.
we do smal square bales 15x22
we charge 3$ a bale in my area to swath rake bale and stack.


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## deadmoose

The first thing the experienced guys are going to ask you is location. Put it in profile.

Next q would be type of hay, what kind of bales, market, etc. Lots of unknowns that you need to provide so the real experts here can thicken your pocket book. Best of luck.


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## fmfracer44

deadmoose said:


> The first thing the experienced guys are going to ask you is location. Put it in profile.
> 
> Next q would be type of hay, what kind of bales, market, etc. Lots of unknowns that you need to provide so the real experts here can thicken your pocket book. Best of luck.


thanks i just edited my question


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## somedevildawg

I would say you are a bit cheap on the price but that's prolly not true everywhere. I would do a cost analysis and just see, I would bet that for any locale, 3$ a bale to cut, rake, bale, and stack is too cheap, I wouldn't/couldn't do it for less than $4. I charge 3.75 per bale, and that's baling and stacking using BB, no rake, or cut. Hope it helps....


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## Vol

I have to agree with somedevildawg....early this morning when I first read this post I thought that was alot of work for $3....I have thought about it somemore and I think that $4 would still be a good deal for someone to have a "turnkey" bale in the barn.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay

No idea on the rates there.

Maybe put in some of your own hay and sell some retail?Get more pieces of the pie! But then you might have to deal with collecting from deadbeats.

100K in bussiness for 3 people don't seem like enough.Are you doing something else besides?


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## Tim/South

Do you have much competition in your area for the service you provide?
In my area we have the retired local who sells for less than anyone else. They are our competition.
I doubt there are many in your area who can offer a better price even if your price goes up.
Look at your costs. Look at what you need to charge to be able to stay in the business. if you are like many of us then you are not paying yourself by the hour. Your pay comes out of the "profit".
Could you stay in business at your current price if you were paying someone $10 per hour to run your equipment?
I doubt you could find anyone competent for that price.
We have got to look at our services as a business.
I like baling hay, especially rounds. I do not like it enough to do it for free or lose money. I can stay at home and it costs nothing.

Do like any other business. Look at the demand and the competition. Look at what it will pay to make it worth your time. Pencil out a bottom line.
Usually the person you are baling for can pass the increase on to their consumers.


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## JD3430

$3 a bale isn't enough.


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## RockmartGA

_"...we make close to 100k in the hay season and only be left with like 20k when its over..."_

Are we talking about profit or cash flow here. There can (usually) be a difference.

As you approach the year end and with tax season rapidly approaching, now is a good time to reflect back and put pencil to paper, if you will.

For example, do you know what your fixed or indirect costs are? These include items such as insurance, interest on equipment, principal expenses on equipment, indirect labor such as accounting, etc. These are the costs that you will incur irregardless of the number of bales you put up. These costs have an inverse relationship with production. I.e., the more you bale, the costs get spread out over more units and the costs per unit go down. Efficiencies of scale, in other words. Also remember that there are limitations to this rule in that as production goes up, it may force you to buy additional equipment and so forth.

What about your direct or variable costs? Fuel, twine, direct labor (the bale, rake, or stack guy), or any other costs that will vary based on the number of bales you put up. If diesel goes up in price $0.20 per gallon, how does that impact your cost per bale? Do you pass that cost along to your customer or do you absorb it?

Some posters have mentioned that you seem to be low on your price per bale. If you raise it, do you lose customers? If so, would the increased price make up for the lost customers? Remember, you have fixed costs that you will incur regardless of the number of bales you put up.

I've just begun to scratch the surface here. As you can see, a lot of information to consider....


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## Gearclash

> we do owe money on our equipment still but that doesnt mean we should be left with only 20% of our revenue


That percentage doesn't surprise me really. I am in the same situation myself, on a smaller scale. As pointed out, there is a difference in numbers. Loan payments or (worse) lease payments suck a lot out of the net profit. My strategy has been to find a balance of cost vs life expectancy of equipment, so as to avoid large or long term payments, and still have good productivity.

I saw first hand once how a small custom operation traded a used big square baler for a new one, and lost it because they just didn't have the work to justify it. I suspect it hurt them long term becuase they had money tied up that they should have been investing in their round baler(s).


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## fmfracer44

Vol said:


> I have to agree with somedevildawg....early this morning when I first read this post I thought that was alot of work for $3....I have thought about it somemore and I think that $4 would still be a good deal for someone to have a "turnkey" bale in the barn.
> 
> Regards, Mike


in my area thats what you charge. even then theres still other hay guys who charge 2.75$ to do the whole operation


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## carcajou

I'll bet that after 5 years in this business your about as efficient operation wise as you can afford to be. If that 20% return includes the labor of you, your brother and dad, well, it's a little too thin for me, you are only working for wages. If that 20% is left over after paying yourselves, tell the rest of us how to do it. lol With the cost increases every year i keep raising my rates accordingly, don't really care what others do. I would rather park my equipment then wear it out for nothing. Seems there is always enough to do anyway. I know if i had payments on new iron i could not afford this approach but thats why i buy used equipment. I find customers that want reliable, top quality service not bottom line price. Good luck


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## fmfracer44

carcajou said:


> I'll bet that after 5 years in this business your about as efficient operation wise as you can afford to be. If that 20% return includes the labor of you, your brother and dad, well, it's a little too thin for me, you are only working for wages. If that 20% is left over after paying yourselves, tell the rest of us how to do it. lol With the cost increases every year i keep raising my rates accordingly, don't really care what others do. I would rather park my equipment then wear it out for nothing. Seems there is always enough to do anyway. I know if i had payments on new iron i could not afford this approach but thats why i buy used equipment. I find customers that want reliable, top quality service not bottom line price. Good luck


thanks for all your advice and help i will have a talk with my brother and dad on how we can save money buying our twine during winter and buying parts from other companies


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## somedevildawg

fmfracer44 said:


> in my area thats what you charge. even then theres still other hay guys who charge 2.75$ to do the whole operation


Think I would have to let them do it for me and make .25 a bale and sit at home on buttocks and make more than I am now........make sense? You are living in the past with the pricing, not hard to do today, input costs skyrocketing, hard to stay ahead, good luck, either go up in price, or sub it and make more money and bide your time doing something else. Just don't stay with status quo, you deserve to make a decent living.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Carcajou has made a good point and one that hit me when I read this post. If the 20% is net profit, that would be great and I too would like to know how it is done. I think you have received some good advice here. It seems to me you need to charge more, bale and sell your own hay, or park your equipment. At $3.00 per bale, I guess you baled 33,000 bales. That equates to a lot of fuel, twine, parts, maintenance, tires, depreciation of your equipment, labor, etc. Boy, I'm getting tired just thinking about it. Farming is a very tough living but a good one if your heart is in the right place. Good luck to you and your family in whatever you do. Best, Mike


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## Teslan

Glad you are on the board. Haven't seen anyone from CA post here before. Is it common in your area to charge per bale to swath hay as part of your per bale charge? I've always felt swathing hay should be charged per acre as you go over the same amount of ground each cutting no matter what the amount of hay is. Do you offer better service then the $2.75 folks? By that I mean do you bale better quality hay then the competition? Most of the custom hay operators around here aren't very good. They bale the hay whenever they want. That could mean baling alfalfa when it's 100 degrees in the afternoon. Or cutting hay right before a 95% forecast rain storm. If I was paying someone to custom hay for me I would pay more to someone that would do it right. To me $3 seems too little for cutting, baling and stacking. I only do a little bit of custom 3x3x8 baling I charge $15 a large bale to just bale. If your bales weigh 100lbs. That is about $1.88 a bale equivalent to $15 for one of my 800 lbs bales. If I do a little custom swathing I charge about $13 an acre depending on the size of the field. Smaller equals more per acre.


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## JD3430

I once had a guy offer me $3/bale if i would bale my hay in small squares and leave it in the field. He would come by and pick it up. I didn't think that was enough. I told him I'd do it for $4/bale and I thought that was light.
Didn't hear back from him until mid summer. He called to see how I was doing. I told him I decided to sell my own hay. He told me "whatever you do, don't sell for less that $6 a bale". He went on to say there's been many new guys who sell hay cheap, bring the prices (and profits) down for everyone. Then the new guy goes out of business and everyone has to suffer the newly established low price for a few years then build it back up.
You almost wish everyone would just stay above $5/bale for average quality 45 lb bales and then go up from there sometimes......


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## cmd

Being in other businesses and farming I will give you 2 suggestions.

#1 if you owe money on your equipment and don't mind the payments to keep newer equipment, you need to learn when is the most economical time to trade in your used machines. This will make or break you in custom work. You will find some machines can't earn enough to pay for themselves before they are worn out in a competetive market, so you have to trade at the right times to keep ahead of this and your going to want to break this down and say well a baler lasts us 20k bales but the trade in value really goes down at 15K so you know when you hit 12k it's time to start looking at new ones. You need to know at that point what the cost per bale that went through that baler was as well.

That brings me to #2, and I catch hell for posting this theory on the internet but let me tell you every serious comercial business you walk into works this way. Get a good figure on your costs of operation, including any expense you incurr along with your labor or you can add the labor a little later. Now that you have that cost, add what you need to make. This can be what you want to make simply for your labor or labor + XX% return on investment, many options here. Don't forget income taxes! Add this number to your costs, divide by applicable amount of bales and you have what you need to charge to make a profit.

Many people bash me and say you can't name your price so you just have to take the market price and be happy. Those people are likely slowly going broke, market price does not guarantee profitability. If your cost to make a bale is higher than the market will bear then you can do something extra to add value to your services without adding much cost or look at cutting costs, and it's possible you might just have to cut the cord on it all.

I doubt your answer lies in finding cheaper parts or buying twine on sale, although these things will help, look at what your really saving $5000 yr???? That's not a lot when it looks like your probably trying to double your profit.

Don't assume every business you see with shiney equipment and a fancy sign is doing good. There are a lot of businesses operating completely on credit and always paying late, etc. You probably realize that from your own operation, that just because you have nice stuff doesn't mean your making bank. So try not to get caught up in shiney paint when your comparing your business's success to your competetition.


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## FCF

cmd said:


> Being in other businesses and farming I will give you 2 suggestions.
> 
> #1 if you owe money on your equipment and don't mind the payments to keep newer equipment, you need to learn when is the most economical time to trade in your used machines. This will make or break you in custom work. You will find some machines can't earn enough to pay for themselves before they are worn out in a competetive market, so you have to trade at the right times to keep ahead of this and your going to want to break this down and say well a baler lasts us 20k bales but the trade in value really goes down at 15K so you know when you hit 12k it's time to start looking at new ones. You need to know at that point what the cost per bale that went through that baler was as well.
> 
> That brings me to #2, and I catch hell for posting this theory on the internet but let me tell you every serious comercial business you walk into works this way. Get a good figure on your costs of operation, including any expense you incurr along with your labor or you can add the labor a little later. Now that you have that cost, add what you need to make. This can be what you want to make simply for your labor or labor + XX% return on investment, many options here. Don't forget income taxes! Add this number to your costs, divide by applicable amount of bales and you have what you need to charge to make a profit.
> 
> Many people bash me and say you can't name your price so you just have to take the market price and be happy. Those people are likely slowly going broke, market price does not guarantee profitability. If your cost to make a bale is higher than the market will bear then you can do something extra to add value to your services without adding much cost or look at cutting costs, and it's possible you might just have to cut the cord on it all.
> 
> I doubt your answer lies in finding cheaper parts or buying twine on sale, although these things will help, look at what your really saving $5000 yr???? That's not a lot when it looks like your probably trying to double your profit.
> 
> Don't assume every business you see with shiney equipment and a fancy sign is doing good. There are a lot of businesses operating completely on credit and always paying late, etc. You probably realize that from your own operation, that just because you have nice stuff doesn't mean your making bank. So try not to get caught up in shiney paint when your comparing your business's success to your competetition.


Well said!

An early economics course I took had a simple idea for every decision you made. There were four possible main outcomes and a combination of those four:
1, Increase profit
2 Decrease profit
3. Increase costs
4. Decrease costs

Of course best case combination- Increase profit and decrease costs, and worst case decrease profit and increase costs.

Profit was considered the return for labor and management if self-employed or to business owners if you had employees that got paid for their labor.


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## cmd

No Response? I guess the OP didn't like the answers.


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## fmfracer44

cmd said:


> Being in other businesses and farming I will give you 2 suggestions.
> 
> #1 if you owe money on your equipment and don't mind the payments to keep newer equipment, you need to learn when is the most economical time to trade in your used machines. This will make or break you in custom work. You will find some machines can't earn enough to pay for themselves before they are worn out in a competetive market, so you have to trade at the right times to keep ahead of this and your going to want to break this down and say well a baler lasts us 20k bales but the trade in value really goes down at 15K so you know when you hit 12k it's time to start looking at new ones. You need to know at that point what the cost per bale that went through that baler was as well.
> 
> That brings me to #2, and I catch hell for posting this theory on the internet but let me tell you every serious comercial business you walk into works this way. Get a good figure on your costs of operation, including any expense you incurr along with your labor or you can add the labor a little later. Now that you have that cost, add what you need to make. This can be what you want to make simply for your labor or labor + XX% return on investment, many options here. Don't forget income taxes! Add this number to your costs, divide by applicable amount of bales and you have what you need to charge to make a profit.
> 
> Many people bash me and say you can't name your price so you just have to take the market price and be happy. Those people are likely slowly going broke, market price does not guarantee profitability. If your cost to make a bale is higher than the market will bear then you can do something extra to add value to your services without adding much cost or look at cutting costs, and it's possible you might just have to cut the cord on it all.
> 
> I doubt your answer lies in finding cheaper parts or buying twine on sale, although these things will help, look at what your really saving $5000 yr???? That's not a lot when it looks like your probably trying to double your profit.
> 
> Don't assume every business you see with shiney equipment and a fancy sign is doing good. There are a lot of businesses operating completely on credit and always paying late, etc. You probably realize that from your own operation, that just because you have nice stuff doesn't mean your making bank. So try not to get caught up in shiney paint when your comparing your business's success to your competetition.


wow thats an excellent piece of information. i never realized those key things. i appreciate all the info i will talk to my dad and start thinking things better like u said we need to know when its the best time to turn in equipment


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## mpr128

I've made small bales for only a few years (I'm setting myself up for a retirement job, when I retire from my actual paying work). What I have learnt is that I would much prefer to buy standing grass from people, make it into hay, store it and sell during winter rather than make hay bales for others.
Around here we charge $3 per bale to cut, swath, bale and leave in the paddock. Someone else around here charges $1 per bale to pick up and stack. I send them along if my customers want pick up.
But making hay for others means fitting their timetable (to some degree) and extra stress if weather is against you.

I've found plenty of people around here who will happily accept from $0 to $1 per bale for standing grass. Yes, that's right. Quite a lot I get for free. I generally won't pay if it's a first cut in the paddock for several years, but will start paying later once the grass starts to improve in quality.

Anyway, it ends up owing me about $4 - $5 /bale stacked in my shed (assuming I was charging myself $3 to bale it).
Then I sell it in winter for $6-$10 per bale depending upon quality and demand.

My scale of operation is dramatically smaller than yours, just 2000 bales per year.


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## Vol

Always wanted to go to NZ and hunt Red Stag.....beautiful country you have. I was curious as to what type of grasses do you bale in your haying operation? Tarr would be cool to hunt, but I could not hunt the country they are found in now (much worse than Bighorn sheep hunting I hear)....maybe if dropped off by helicopter then hunted on foot.









Regards, Mike


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## mpr128

To be honest I don't pay attention to the grass species, nor do my customers. All my customers, except one, are hobby farmers. They have proper town jobs but live in the country. They fatten a few cattle and make the excess grass into hay to feed their stock through winter. The stuff I buy is usually abandoned. Land that is not used for anything, so the owners are grateful for it to be cleared once per year to stop it going completely feral. 
Yes, hunting from helicopters seems to be a popular choice amongst the tourists here. Just doesn't seem sporting to me.


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## Vol

mpr128 said:


> al.
> Yes, hunting from helicopters seems to be a popular choice amongst the tourists here. Just doesn't seem sporting to me.


No one HUNTS FROM helicopters as that is illegal in all instances. I am 60 years old now and I don't climb 12000 and 14000 feet mountains as well as I used too, so if I could be dropped off at say 10000 feet, that would help my knees tremendously. I am strictly a archery hunter....and it sure as hell doesn't get more sporting than that. Do you hunt or do you just make assumptions about hunting? Here in the states when I go on a high country hunt, I go by horse back to get to my desired elevation.....basically the same thing as using a helicopter....just alot slower and more beautiful and peaceful....but I would be a "tourist" in your country and probably would not have the time I would prefer to have for hunting.

Back to the helicopters.....in some instances helicopters are used to control(SHOOT not HUNT) out-of-control populations of mostly feral non-native species like feral pigs in state of Texas.....there are over 1 million of these destroyers in that state alone and the Wildlife and Parks people are trying desperately to get control on this nuisance and are using any means and methods to bring this out-of-control non-native population in check as they are a tremendous destroyer of wildlife, fauna, and agriculture.

Good luck with your unknown grass haymaking.

Vol


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## somedevildawg

Lol


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## deadmoose

Speaking of custom harvesting: how much does a guy have to pay to kill the hogs? Looking for good hunting trip. For 3-6 guys.


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## somedevildawg

deadmoose said:


> Speaking of custom harvesting: how much does a guy have to pay to kill the hogs? Looking for good hunting trip. For 3-6 guys.


i would bet that some of the guys in tx will put u up to come kill hogs. I like the newest way to kill the swine, tannirite (sp) and a horn o plenty feeder, one bullet can wipe out the entire group, have been as many as 20 killed at a time.....my idea of hog hunting


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## IslandBreeze

Deadmoose, I will send u some info if I can find it. Back when I used to hunt we would go to Laredo Tx & hunt on a 300,000 acre ranch. I remember the owner was a hot 30-40 yr old chick that inherited it from her dad. Damn, I still dream about that woman. Haha. I think it would start on a wed or thurs & go thru sunday. It seems like it was a couple hundred a $2-300/person, that included a place to camp, but u could shoot feral hogs, javelina hogs, jack rabbits, mountain lion, rattlesnake & coyote. Absolutely no deer. That was at least 12 years ago. It was bow hunting but it seemed like they also did rifle.


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## somedevildawg

Hey I want that address too! She still own it? Did you say you could hunt


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## IslandBreeze

Devildawg, I would put my money on it that she still does. I haven't been there for 12+ years but some of the guys that went with us still go there. I will find the info if I go over to my parents today. I can hunt, I just haven't since I had my girls. They made me soft after they were born & I just looked at stuff differently although I told my wife last week that I have started thinking about taking up turkey hunting & hog hunting again.


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## somedevildawg

Yea, kids have a way of doing that.....always stayed away from turkey hunting, too much to do in the spring.......everything else is fair game....


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## IslandBreeze

Devildawg, I've never turkey hunt. I just seen some of those dumb birds walking around the other day and decided that if I buy some land I'm going to kill 1 next season. I've only deer hunt and hog hunted.


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## mpr128

Vol said:


> No one HUNTS FROM helicopters as that is illegal in all instances........ I am strictly a archery hunter....and it sure as hell doesn't get more sporting than that. ........Do you hunt or do you just make assumptions about hunting?


Yes, archery is much more sporting than using a rifle.
I made assumptions based on seeing people netting/shooting animals from a helicopter.
You're quite right, it seems that I assumed it was hunting which as you've pointed out is different to pest control which is probably what I saw. Very sorry. I'll engage brain before mouth next time.

Yes, off to mow some more rubbish this afternoon. Reminds me of a line from Fawlty Towers where Basil says "More rubbish, dear ?". I guess it's funnier if you've seen it.

I suspect the rubbish is more profitable than baling for others. I pay no more than $1 per bale for the grass/rubbish, it's usually free. Store it, sell it in winter for $6-$7 per bale when everyone else is charging $10-$11 for good stuff. I still have no trouble selling it and I make it clear that's it's not good hay.


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## somedevildawg

Good for you mpr, you should disclose that, and let the customer be the judge. I wish sometimes I could bale rubbish and get away with it.......taking the extra time to grow premium hay makes me feel good, but not necessarily the bottom line.....not sure my customers know the diff sometimes. 
Not at all familiar with the show you mentioned but I'll tell you a good one I heard on one of our shows once. There used to be a show called "designing women" there was three women that starred in the show, one of them was named Delta Burke, she's a big girl, and a southern girl (Atlanta I think). Anyway, she speaks kinda southern if you know what that means......anyway, she's at a debutante ball (a fancy affair) with a whole lot of high maintenance women in New York city, she's making small talk, mingling with the crowd of women folk, when she asked this one lady, again just making small talk, "where are you from". Lady looks down her nose at Delta and says "where I'm from we don't end our sentences with prepositions". Delta, ever the gracious one says " Oh, I'm sorry, where are you from, BITCH! 
That had to be one of the funniest one liners I can remember on American tv, except for the soup nazi, maybe......"no soup for you!"


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## IslandBreeze

devildawg, that cracked me up just thinking of u doing that impression in a male southern accent. Maybe record it & post it on here. Haha


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## somedevildawg

Lol, too funny, I laugh about that crap every time I c Delta, which ain't much anymore.


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## Nitram

Fawlty Towers was a funny British show about a hotel owner/manager always screwing up . Manuel was my favorite! Staring John Cleese (spelling?) of Monty Python fame. Martin


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## alison farms

I have improved my profits with the Alison Bale Converter. I round roll the hay (I do straw also) in the field making it easer to handle, easier to store, and saves time. I then convert the bales to square bales as I sell it. I load the square bales directly on the truck as they come out of the converter by means of a conveyor. Some of my friends use a Bale Baron behind the Alison Bale Converter. This method reduces the amount of labor needed, the amount of storage needed, and the amount of time involved in the process, thus increasing profits.


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## Lazy J

My question is simple: Do you really know how profitable the operation is currently ar are you just goining by what you see?

I have been reviewing our financials for the year in preparation for taxes and have a good understanding about the ins and outs of our operation from a cost and profit perspective. There is no way anyone else has the same understanding of my operation.


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## Deen

somedevildawg said:


> I would say you are a bit cheap on the price but that's prolly not true everywhere. I would do a cost analysis and just see, I would bet that for any locale, 3$ a bale to cut, rake, bale, and stack is too cheap, I wouldn't/couldn't do it for less than $4. I charge 3.75 per bale, and that's baling and stacking using BB, no rake, or cut. Hope it helps....


Semper Fi! Wish you were in North Central Texas, the guy that baled for me just quit yesterday.


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## Tx Jim

Deen
Welcome to HT from Coyote Flats,Tx
Where are you located in N Central Tx?


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## SwingOak

It can be challenging to make a consistent profit when you’re marketing a commodity product - like hay. Custom rates are different, because you’re selling a service. There’s some excellent advice on building a cost model already provided, so I won’t repeat that.

I will add this though - you can find specific information for your state for everything agriculture related from the USDA here: USDA - National Agricultural Statistics Service - Statistics by State

Some states, not all, will have a Custom Rate Guide listed, usually on the left side of the page under the “More State Features” section. You can look up what the average rates are in your area to help you see if you’re competitive or not.

Most importantly, charge what you need to charge. There’s no point in doing the work if you’re not making money at it.


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## Swv.farmer

_I would set down and figure out how much I needed per acre to cut tedder rake and bale and that would be a flat price._


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## MTB98

Original post was from 2012. Amazing that hay prices haven’t changed much.


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## BisonMan

I'm new to the business, last year I did 60 acres on a farm I recently bought, this year I'm pulling in some family land and another plot and am up at 100 acres. This might hurt my "hayman" credentials, but I don't have full equipment. Just enough to till, plant, collect the bales (Bobcat/Wagon), Sell it out of the barn and to Ship it. The cost of equipment isn't exactly cheap and even trying to make a decision about it is a little bit difficult. I met an older farmer (60s) who mows, rakes, bales and does a great job. I market, load people up either small squares or large rounds, and deliver it.

The old farmer who does my custom work told me something, he said "you really operate differently, you figure out how much you need to charge before to actually make money". Well that's this year, after losing money in 2020 my mindset changed a little! But the market is looking a little better this year so that helps the business plan.

Point is, prices are sticky, and farmers ironically will keep their price every year the same, and not want to push it up at all. This might have been what happened with the Original Poster. This is really the time to raise prices ... Corn and Beans are up, so why shouldn't the hayman be getting his due!

This doesn't just apply to hay though, it also applies to equipment and custom work. My custom guy is price wise is reasonable enough and experienced enough to deter me from buying my own equipment for the moment. I'd suggest that custom guys consider not only the competition, but the actual cost of the equipment and effort the land owner would have to take on. Also, farmers don't really want to switch guys' in alot of cases if they have someone they trust and is dependable. While it's hard to lose customers, sometimes it's better to move to the new price with a new customer. Plus that old customer might call you back.

This is my mindset at the moment, I might


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## Trillium Farm

This is really a tricky point as the custom hayman depends solely on the weather! To my knowledge the ONLY way to make money is to hay where you can control the weather, if that were ever possible, and that's why hayers in places like Colorado where they don't get a lot of rain or humidity have the advantage because they can irrigate. For the rest of us the cost of haying is spread over doing our own and then (hopefully) get a return through cattle, milk, hay sales and custom work. In Ontario and places with similar weather it would be really hard for a custom operator to make money, unless he was getting paid only for service rendered, but here again one gets caught in the "what equipment do you have?" and if not up to date may be passed over. No easy answers anywhere.


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