# NH 1465 Haybine learning on the fly



## Tkekic (Sep 16, 2013)

Got a problem. My old Haybine was at the end of its life and I traded it in on a NH 1465 built in 2000. Problem with buying used equipment is that the owners manual did not come with it. Had it in the field for the first time today and had problems. The field is first cut grass hay for horses. The weather has really put us way behind getting it in this year. We fertilized the field this season and with all the rain the hay is waist high and in spots higher. Very thick and some of it has laid down because of the storms we have had and the fact that it is still first cut. The beaters are jamming and I tightened the belt and it helped. But the rollers are constantly banging and I think not all the crop is getting through the rollers evenly. The beaters seem to jam when the crop builds up before it goes through the rolls. And I am cutting with the tractor in 1st gear, as slow as I can set it. Do I cut the crop higher? When I tried that the problem was a bit less but still not good. Too much banging the rollers. Do I adjust the rollers so that they are farther apart? Or adjust the tension on the rolls, or both. I ordered a manual but will not get it till early next week. The little propaganda for a new 1465 says that the roller gap for legume should be 1/64 to 1/16. The pictures all show the unit cutting what looks like alfalfa and it is a whole 12" high. My grass is four feet in spots and very think near the ground. Any suggestions are most welcome from you guys that are the experts.


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

Discbine? =)


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I know you don't want to hear it but "discbinedr" has your only solution. Anything you try will only marginally help. I have been around since the haybines first started appearing on farms. It was a tremendous step up from the mowing machine and every one thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. But as people fertilized more and in our area poured the poultry and hog manure to the hay fields it came a time where the haybine just would not cut it. At first stub guards kept the haybines in the fields, but eventually even they could not overcome the other bottle necks on the haybine such as the reel and conditioning rollers. The haybine just was not designed to handle the large volume of material being forced through it.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Actually, I've found setting the gap for the crimper wider actually worsens the issue. Release some of the tension on the rolls. That may help. How do the edges of the rolls look? Have had issues before that when the edge gets too round, the agressiveness is basically non existent.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Are the rolls noisy when there is no crop going through? Could they be slightly out of time?


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

I just looked up stub guards. I think that's what I have on my windrower. When I was pricing a new sickle @ JD dealer I pointed out to parts guy that my guards were different. Explaining them to him he had never seen them before. Mine look something like this:

http://manuals.deere.com/omview/OMFH318468_19/graphics/E65738.gif

Are these the best type for above problems? Given diskbine ain't happening any time soon.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I have a NH 1465 haybine as well and had somewhat similar problems when I first got it and tried to cut heavy grass hay. Does your machine have the long standard guards? Are they plugging and collecting a pile of hay that is causing the reel to skip causing a pile of hay to go through the rollers at one time creating a loud bang? I'm assuming when you say beaters you are talking about the reel? First thing order a set of stub guards and get rid of the standard guards.....it is next to hopeless to cut heavy, wet, down hay with standard guards. You may need to also tighten the belt that let's the reel slip and check to see that your reel drive chain is tight and not jumping teeth on the sprocket.

After I installed stub guards on my machine I have not once plugged the cutter bar and the hay feeds much better into the rollers with only the occasional banging sound when I'm in hay that is laying down. I have cut very heavy wet hay that was laying flat and never plugged the cutter bar or rollers......now your not going to be able to fly through the fields at 8mph like you could with a discbine but unless I'm in hay that is really laying down and wet in most conditions I generally cut around 5mph.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Haybines cannot match the cutting speed of a discbine, but a haybine should be able to cope with most grass conditions when set up correctly.

First knife sections need to be sharp and run very close to the knife section cutting plate. Put simply the knife sections sever the grass stalks with a "by-pass" cutting action like a pair of scissors that has one blade pass by the other. On a haybine the two blades are:

One fixed and mounted on the lower part of the knife guard;

The second is the oscillating triangular knife section.

Once these are in good order, the knife section must pass very close by the fixed section so the grass stalks are severed.

Next the knife sections must be in the correct register, ie the centre of the knife section at the end of each stroke should be centred on the respective finger of the knife guard. This means the moving knife section maximises the amount of cut as it bypasses the fixed sections. The register can be adjusted and if not properly set up the amount of cutting per stroke is reduced and the cutter cannot keep up with the flow of grass into the knife and it blocks.

My personal preference is for long fingers on the knife guard, in my view there is a combing action to separate the grasses being cut into clear segments and for my operation the knife guard can the better protect the knife section from my oversupply of rocks.

Reel speed is also important. Reel speed should match ground speed. The idea of the reel is to sweep the grass over the cutter bed thus holding the grass into the knife action and then sweep it toward the rollers in a smooth action not pushing grass into the rollers before it is cut. So if the reel speed is too fast there is grass pushed into the grasp of the rollers before it is cut leading to the grass being pulled out by the roots by the rollers and clogging the rollers or passing as pre-cut grass and cut grass as a clump......the rollers bang together after the clump goes through;

Conversely if the reel speed is too slow the grass is cut off and sits on top of the cutter bar and builds up a bunch before being pushed as a clump into the rollers, .....again the rollers bang back together after the clump passes.

Having slowed ground speed down the the slowest the tractor will go has I sspect caused reel speed to be now faster than ground speed. I do not have access to a 1465 but most other haybine style machines have a sprocket selection on the chain drive to vary reel speed so reel speed can be matched to ground speed.

Te reel on some machines can be adjusted or height, ie the reel should gently sweep the tops of the grass in and not be buried in the grass overloading the reel and feeding clumps of grass. You can see this if the reel is bending the top of the grass down and pushing the tops of the grass down into the lower levels of grass thus creating a balling effect with every reel bar full of grass. The centre of the reel should be up toward the top of the grass.

Fallen and tangled grass is an issue foe haybines because the fallen over grass can get to the rollers before the knife cuts the stalk, grass is pulled out in bunches by the rollers. Only chance is to mow in the direction the grass is fallen, ie the cutter bar comes to the stalks before the rollers grab the tops.

Discbines do better with lodged (fallen) crops because groundspeed can be increased to minimise time between roller grabbing grass and the arrival of the cutter.

Rollers should have a "squarish" (note the technical language) profile on the leading edge of the chevrons to ensure grip of grass. Chevrons must not touch. After that clearance and tension are largely personal preference.

Ensuring sharp knives, close bypass and good condition wear plates on knife guards, correct register of the knife to knife guards and correct reel speed will optimise haybine cutting.

Hope this is of help


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Coondle, the points you make are valid, however the crops being cut have a mass that the haybine just can not process. With a properly setup cutterbar with stub guards cutting is not the limiting factor. There is too much material under the reel for it to operate correctly and once the reel does release material into the conditioning rollers there is not enough room behind the rollers for it to go and then you have roll wrapping. Granted, new rolls are more aggressive than worn ones, but you still have the confined space behind the rolls for the material to go and even new rolls will wrap. Even with the swathgate set for windrowing there is not enough room for all the material.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Mike 10, I acknowledge there are limits to the capacity of a haybine, but offered a set of parameters to try and get the best performance available from Tkekic's machine that he already has. Short of paying out more money for a discbine he has to try and work with what he has.

If the optimal setup does not cut his hay then a machine upgrade is then the final option.

Few people address the need to match reel speed to ground speed and at the limits of performance it becomes more important as a factor, so too does setting the knife register.

The "fluffy" nature of some grass hay could well be beyond the ability of a haybine to dispose of the cut material, compared with the much more open rear disposal area of a discbine.

I am regularly amazed at the volume of the hay in a windrow in pictures , that when baled compresses enormously.

In a heavy crop in my area, using a 10 foot cut discbine, 55lb bales come out at about every 16 to 18 feet along a single windrow.

At one time good results here would be circa 100 bales per acre or some 2 1/2 tonnes (5500lbs) dry hay.

Despite a drying climate a change to no-till planting, better weed control and better targeted fertiliser results in production for some people near here of up to 300 bales per acre, 7 1/2 tonnes (16500 lbs) although I have not achieved quite that level. Even at that quantity of hay a properly set up haybine still mows at about 2 to 3mph in standing crop, but if the crop has lodged (fallen) a haybine will not cope at all.

You mention the reel not working properly in tall heavy grass.

On an international 175 the reel could be raised/lowered, advanced further from the machine and speed varied to ensure proper operation in all hay conditions.

Hesston with its PT10 had a bar to fold tall material into the reel. The 1465 on the other hand presupposes the hay will not be taller than the relativey low-set reel can handle.

There is no argument from me about the capacity of a discbine.

Using a haybine style machine I mowed in good going at about 3 acres per hour. I changed to a discbine and now mow at about 10 acres per hour. I moved from 3 haybine style machines of 9 foot cut to one 10 foot 4 inch discbine, thus saving a lot of labour.

I did not go to a wider machine because in very heavy crop the tractor for my small square baler could not go slow enough. The eternal story, "horses for courses" .


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

I guess I shouldn't presuppose what the Tkekic's mowing conditions are like. His situation may be different from what we have in my area. While the NH reels are adjustable up, down, forward, back, fast and slow and the push bar can be repositioned higher there are limits to these adjustments. In our area heavy hay is usually lodged and wet underneath. With a disc machine when the down material enters the conditioning unit before being cut off you just use your extra horsepower and plow through it, but when the reel is trying to push the cut material and the uncut material into the rolls you will have feeding problems and possible roll wrapping.

Tkekic's solution may be to just purchase a used or new disc mower which would be considerably less expensive than a discbine and would certainly be easier on the heart and mind.


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## DSLinc1017 (Sep 27, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> I have a NH 1465 haybine as well and had somewhat similar problems when I first got it and tried to cut heavy grass hay. Does your machine have the long standard guards? Are they plugging and collecting a pile of hay that is causing the reel to skip causing a pile of hay to go through the rollers at one time creating a loud bang? I'm assuming when you say beaters you are talking about the reel? First thing order a set of stub guards and get rid of the standard guards.....it is next to hopeless to cut heavy, wet, down hay with standard guards. You may need to also tighten the belt that let's the reel slip and check to see that your reel drive chain is tight and not jumping teeth on the sprocket.
> After I installed stub guards on my machine I have not once plugged the cutter bar and the hay feeds much better into the rollers with only the occasional banging sound when I'm in hay that is laying down. I have cut very heavy wet hay that was laying flat and never plugged the cutter bar or rollers......now your not going to be able to fly through the fields at 8mph like you could with a discbine but unless I'm in hay that is really laying down and wet in most conditions I generally cut around 5mph.


100%. !!! I too have a 1465 and as Farmer Cline has posted I was in the exact same spot as he was. Ready to give up all hope on my haybine. I had standard guards on it, and was told through a posted question on HT to switch to stub guards. I did, as well as put on new knives. It took a better half of a day to get them adjusted just right. I am now able to cut at 5mph with wet and lodged hay. Not only that but wet logged read canary. It's like night and day, last year I could only cut read canary at 1mph and forget it if it was wet. I was clogged all the time, ripping roots right out, The sickle couldn't keep up with the reel. 
In addition with the standard guards, forget about sending through per cut, the old guards would just rake it up then the reel would send the whole thing into the rolls and BAM ( sound of rolls clogged ). This year I can go right through the round and rounds into the center back and forths. So far this year about 70 acres down most of it wet and lodged, even cut one field in the poring rain. Not one clog yet!

So in the mean time my 1465 has a new lease on life in my fields, Until I can upgrade to a disk. This is to say, there is a reason why the industry has moved to the disk mower.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Great news DSLinc1017.

New guards mean new cutting plates on the guards plus a new knife, more than likely on correct register.

The cutting plates on the guards are often the forgotten part of the cutting equation. They are after all one half of the equipment that actually severs the bits you want from the attachment to the earth, the bits you don't want.

How often will someone sharpen the upper blade of by-pass secateurs and pay no attention to the lower blade.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

DSLinc1017 said:


> 100%. !!! I too have a 1465 and as Farmer Cline has posted I was in the exact same spot as he was. Ready to give up all hope on my haybine. I had standard guards on it, and was told through a posted question on HT to switch to stub guards. I did, as well as put on new knives. It took a better half of a day to get them adjusted just right. I am now able to cut at 5mph with wet and lodged hay. Not only that but wet logged read canary. It's like night and day, last year I could only cut read canary at 1mph and forget it if it was wet. I was clogged all the time, ripping roots right out, The sickle couldn't keep up with the reel.
> In addition with the standard guards, forget about sending through per cut, the old guards would just rake it up then the reel would send the whole thing into the rolls and BAM ( sound of rolls clogged ). This year I can go right through the round and rounds into the center back and forths. So far this year about 70 acres down most of it wet and lodged, even cut one field in the poring rain. Not one clog yet!
> So in the mean time my 1465 has a new lease on life in my fields, Until I can upgrade to a disk. This is to say, there is a reason why the industry has moved to the disk mower.


 Glad those stub guards are working out for you. As you found out stub guards make a haybine into a whole different machine.


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

I am just reading this about the stub Guards just had a terrible experience with my 1465 cutting my first cut,going to purchase the Stub Guards and I am hoping this will help this machine cut hay.

I only had it for 2 years and have had a hard time with the guards clogging,missing ,

I am wondering how hard of a job it is to install theses Stub Guards ??????.

Greg


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Should not be hard but time consuming. A 1465 is about 9 foot 3 inches which means 39 paired guards or 78 bolts to undo and do up. Using a rattle gun either air, corded electric or cordless electric will speed up the process enormously. Also be prepared to replace any bolts that are at all damaged.

Although not familiar with the stub guards you intend using, Would consider replacing all of the bolts with new and put "never seize" or even ordinary chassis grease on the threads. Lubricated bolts can be torqued better than non-lubricated and are MUCH easier to remove years later.

As said in post 13 above do not forget the cutting plates, check they are sharp and not rounded off. THe knife sections must of course be sharp, the register (where the knife section stops and changes direction) must be set so the knife section changes direction with the point of the knife section directly under the guard. The knife must be held down onto the cutting plates, At one timothy cutting plates were replaceable on cast guards, but now are part of the forged guard and not a separate replaceable plate.

If having to slowcground speed down in an effort to deal with lodged grass then the reel speed must be slowed down so reel speed matches ground speed or ever so slightly faster. If the reel speed is faster than ground speed the grass is pulled into the rollers before the sickle has a chance to cut the stalks, pulling the grass out by the roots, jamming the knife with soil and creating the mother of plugs.

You will see above that DSlinc had better results with stub guardscbut he also attended to the other parts of the cutting equation.

Good luck and let us know of your results.

Kevin


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

Kevin

Thanks for you reply I am ordering all new parts the only thing I am not too sure about are the shims and quantity I should order.??????

Greg


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

There are several styles of stub guards, some are referred to as non-clog and generally they are very short and 2 piece, a lower piece and an upper piece that clips inyo the lower and is bolted on above the knife bar with the same bolts as hold the lower piece. The lower pieces are usually forged steel and the upper may be forged steel or bent plate steel, possibly spring steel..

Shims here are in 3 thicknesses, 1mm, 2mm and you guessed it! 3mm thicknesses so you need a selection, not only for initial setup but for maintenance/adjustment purposes too

I once bought a second hand machine with different brands of knife guards it and it was a nightmare until I realised. The differing brands had a differing rake (uplift toward the front) of the fingers and the ledger plates. To keep each knife section parallel to and in close proximity to the ledgers was impossible, this caused very poor cutting performance, particularly in fine stemmed grass.

I have had another thought as to the ability to cut wet grass, a situation i have rarely encountered due to a very dry climate where I used to operate. Knife sections come in a variety of guises (with NH part numbers shown);

top serrated black (NH 67631),

top serrated chrome (NH 604921)

under serrated black (NH 67630) and

under serrated chrome (NH 604800)

that is with a 2 mm hole for the rivets and for a 2.8 mm rivet hole;

under serrated black (NH 29875).

Other manufacturers also make knife sections with coarse serrations usually only on top and there are still some that make smooth knife sections but these need regular sharpening to maintain cutting performance. Serrated knives maintain cutting performance much much better than smooth knife sections, just like your kitchen knives. When I started hay making only smooth sections were available, once i discovered serrated knife sections, the smooth style were consigned to historic display.

One manufacturer here recommends their fine serrated sections (top and under) for fine grass and their coarse serrated sections for coarse stemmed grass, which makes sense to me, however I came to like the fine under serrated chrome knife sections as a very good all round performer and I have on many occasions sharpened under serrated knife sections to improve cutting performance. Sharpening did not work for top serrated knives.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IDK about how many shims, but I did have (and run) a NH 1465 (traded in on the discbine, BTW). I thing that I would make and have handy is a piece of 1 1/2" pipe, about 3' long, with a 3/8" slot cut about 1 1/2" in one end. Use this 'alignment' tool to straighten any spots where the guards mount. I never used stub guards, but I'm guessing that you will have better performance with all your guards lined up the New York Rockettes. I know that I did anyhow, with the regular guards. I ran my machine for 14 -15 years (bought new), usually re-aligned guards and put a new knife in every year. I think I replaced almost all the guards once (cutting about 250 total acres per year).

Larry


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## mercuryhay (Feb 18, 2015)

Larry
Is the pipe slotted on both sides to go over the sections on a horizontal plane


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

zrtkat said:


> I am just reading this about the stub Guards just had a terrible experience with my 1465 cutting my first cut,going to purchase the Stub Guards and I am hoping this will help this machine cut hay.
> 
> I only had it for 2 years and have had a hard time with the guards clogging,missing ,
> 
> ...


All my parts where delivered today hoping to get it done over the weekend

will let you know the results

Greg


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Here is how I install stub guards.

The most important part is to start with a new knife or new sections. Trying to adjust the hold down clips is a royal pain with a knife with used sections.

The knife must be straight. Tip the knife up so the tips of the sections are facing heaven and eye down the length of the knife. If there are bends and bows, place the knife flat on a hard surface and take a hammer and hit the knife in the area that is high. On a riveted knife, hit on the rivets and on a bolt on knife hit between the bolts.

Once the knife is ready I install three guards, the right and left end guard and one in the center without the hold down clip and tighten the outer bolts of the end guards and the two bolts in the center guard

Next I place the knife in position and bolt to the wobble arm. Once the knife is in place, I install the rest of the guards and the hold down clips but only tightening the nuts finger tight. On NH guards and hold down clips I install one thin and two thick shims under each hold down.

Loosen the clamp bolt holding the bushing in the knife head. slide the head up or down on the bushing so the first section just contacts the first guard. Ideally the section should lay flat on the first guard, but that may not be the case. I have already twisted the knife head to get a better fit but generally that is not necessary.

The hold down clips straddle two guards. Start with the first hold down clip on the knife head end. Tighten both bolts on the first hold down. You want as little clearance as possible between the hold down clip and the section but at the same time you do not want to force the knife section down on the guard if the guard is low. In by repair tread pinned at the top of the forum you will find a tool I made to adjust the stub guards. It is listed in the section on tools I have made. There is also a description on how to use the tool.

If you cannot get a thin shim between the section and hold down clip, then you need to add additional shims under the hold down clip. What you will probably find is on one ear of the hold down clip the clearance will right but on the other ear of the hold down clip the clearance will not be right. In those situations I cut one of the shims about an inch long and use the short shim to change just that one ear.

If you use a wrench to tighten the nuts be sure you pull the wrench towards you when tightening the nuts. If you push you can slip and cut yourself severely on a knife section.

We never sold the 1465 or any of that design so I am not sure if the next suggestion will work. When I shim the stub guards and am checking the clearance, I grab two of the reel pipes and pull towards me. On a regular haybine this will cause the knife to move back and forth. If the hold down is too tight the knife will not move. I also watch the tips of the hold down clips and see if they are moving up and down. If the clips are moving you need to add more shims.

This next tip must be done carefully. After I adjust the hold down clip with the section over the guard, I grab the tips of the sections and pull towards me. The knife should move front to back and vise versa. If I can move the knife by grabbing the tips of the section and there is no clearance between the hold down, section and guard, the shim job is perfect..

After the first guard is done just work your way down the cutterbar.


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

mike10 said:


> Here is how I install stub guards.
> 
> The most important part is to start with a new knife or new sections. Trying to adjust the hold down clips is a royal pain with a knife with used sections.
> 
> ...


Mike

Thank-You for taking the time to post this I really appreciate this and will be helpful on the installation

Greg


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

One thing I should make clear. When you move the knife head up and down on the knife head bushing the knife is at the end of the stroke. On the 1465 and that style wobble drive you can just tighten the knife head clamp bolt because the inner bushing just floats.

On 488 and that style wobble drive, go ahead and tighten the clamp bolt, but then loosen the knife bolt which goes into the wobble arm. Turn the wobble box until the knife sections are between the guards, center of stroke, and then tighten the knife bolt. The rubber bushing in the knife head does not float and you will wear the bushing out because it twist only one way instead of both directions.


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## KYhaymaker (Jun 7, 2018)

If you do antiseize all those bolts, reduce the torque spec by 25%. Lubricated bolts have higher clamp force than dry threads. If you are even using a torque wrench that is. If you are like us, most things on our farm are tightened using the German method. Thats a lot of bolts hope you have an impact.


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

zrtkat said:


> All my parts where delivered today hoping to get it done over the weekend
> will let you know the results
> Greg


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

Okay starting to install stub guards now have to figure out how many y shims to install


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

All the stub guards are in place now trying to adjust the guards to allow the blade to slide in .


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## zrtkat (Jun 17, 2018)

I have good news to report after installing stub guards on my 1465 it turned this into a completely different machine I was cutting hay 3-4 feet high today never missed or clogged ,thanks for all the input on this subject.
Greg


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