# 80 acres of hay, is it worth it?



## CottageFarm

Like the title says, we have in our family a 210-acre farm, 80 open and the rest is wooded. The land is rented now for cash crops with a typical rotation every year beans and corn. It has been in crop rotation for at least 40 years, renting the land pays the taxes and puts about 1,000 in the pocket a year. 

I have done hay before orchard grass along with pure alfalfa so I kind of know the ends and outs of baling hay. My goal is to take this land out of crops and plant it all in orchard grass. 

I have two tractors already 80 hp and 40 hp with front-end loaders in which I would add one more to the fleet for pulling the disc bine (14' ) as the 80 won't do it. The market is there as I have talked to a fellow that buys rounds and big squares are year-round as he re-bales them into small squares for his customers. He said as long as the hay is of good quality, then typically he pays fair market value for it which is around 55-60 bucks per 4x5 bale avg. around 800 to 850 pounds. 

Typically with the weather here in eastern Va., we can get 3 cuttings, but I have only gotten 2 before during a dry year. I will need to build a barn to store the hay as the barns now are just enough for the equipment. 

I square baled before on 3 acres just to get my feet wet in a smaller field 3 years ago and I got on avg. 60 to 65 bales to the acre which isn't the best but not the worst and it was the first year of a new stand. The fellow I talked to said that there are anywhere between 14 and 18 square bales per 4x5 round, so with that let's say I got the min. 14 bales out of each round, on 3 acres with 180 small squares at 14 bales in each round that should be about 12 rounds. That's a 4 bale to the acre avg. if I did my math correctly. So 4 bales an acre at 80 acres is 320, at the min. say 50 bucks a piece that's 16k per cut. Not breaking the bank kind of money but It would pay the expenses and the equipment payments. 

I do work a full-time job as an HVAC mechanic so this is not money I need to live on from day to day. This is all in my head kind of thinking but I like hay farming and I would be happy just to pay for my equipment and expenses along with pocketing a few extra bucks once the equipment is paid off. 

I have a 30' gooseneck already so hauling is not a problem. I am hoping to have no more than 60 to 70k invested in equipment. I know it can be done cheaper but I won't have to get fairly decent equipment to limit the breakdowns. 

Also here in Va., there are a few grants for turning your crop fields into hay fields where they will pay for the seed and the fertilizer to get the crops established. 

Let me know what y'all think.


----------



## SVFHAY

Weather. How much does he pay for rain damaged hay?


----------



## deadmoose

What are current tractors? While a diskbine seems to be the best way to go (money no object) a sickle conditioner will do the job. Just slower. For your acreage I would consider that route.

You can be in for a whole lot less than 60k. And you can always upgrade next year.

Good luck in your new venture.


----------



## NewBerlinBaler

Is the 80 acres all good bottom land? I'm growing orchard grass and my fields have never produced four 4x5 rounds per acre. More like 2½ to 3 per acre. Perhaps under optimal conditions - the right amount of rain at the right time, etc.

Regardless, farming the land yourself is always more profitable than renting it to another farmer - IMHO.

Only pitfall I see with your plan is that full time job. Going to be tough during crunch time - cutting, raking, baling, gathering the bales and moving them to the barn, stacking. Add in the weather not cooperating and a few machinery breakdowns... Hope you have help.

Good luck

Gary


----------



## CottageFarm

He will take some hay that is rotten on the outer layer but if your talking rained on hay which will turn moldy, he will not take it. So if that was to happen then I guess it would be sold for goat or cow hay at a much lower price.


----------



## CottageFarm

I have Kubota with a loader which is the 40 hp and a ford 6600 which is around 80 hp, as far as land goes it drains well and is majority flat. Not a perfect square but it is nice land. Also have a lb 75 backhoe I could put a spear on also.


----------



## hog987

With 80 hp you can run a 10 foot discbine just fine and it faster than running a sickle machine plus you won't need to buy another tractor for the time being.


----------



## CottageFarm

I guess a 10' discbine would do good for starting off, I'm just trying to get everyone's take on my idea. The biggest problem I think I will have is getting the bales off the field, baling, raking and cutting is a solo operation but getting them off it would be nice 2 extra people for that. The only other down fall is see to not getting another tractor is if I have a major failure with that one 80 hp tractor I will be up creek if I'm in the middle of cutting or baling.


----------



## Bishop

I grow corn, beans, wheat, and hay. I like being diversified.

When you go mono crop it can get tricky to sustain profit.


----------



## Hugh

A lesson I learned a long time ago is that one ought to spend more effort in selling than discounting. For example, if it costs you $10 to produce something and you can sell it right away for $12, you will be much better off in the profit department to take some extra effort in selling. Now, if you sold the item for $13 instead of $12, you have increased your profit by 50%.

I would check the local markets for hay and see how you can fair in the market as a whole. I would also be careful about hanging your hat on this one guy. If he can sell small bales and make a profit you can even do better than he can. Bale some of your acres in small bales. I recently bought an old used NH 277 bailer for $700. Works great. Cut out the middle man and make the profit yourself. Do Craig's list and put notices on bulletin boards. I put a hand written note on our vet's bulletin board and sold out my last cutting just from that one note.

We all love equipment and talking about it, but a reasonable business plan beats any new tractor you can name.

Some thoughts...


----------



## CottageFarm

My plan was just to use this as a good starting point to get into the field. I know for this amount of acres I could do a lot better money wise by going with square bales vs round bales but we are talking more money for equipment and a bigger barn. The market is here for quality hay, the problem around here is a lot of people produce hay but they go off of quantity not quality. This is my whole reason for getting into this type of farming because of the quality of hay around is not that great.


----------



## Trillium Farm

Don't forget a tedder, if you want to make good quality is it's a must. Maybe not every year, but I wouldn't do without one. Do small bales, build a barn with only a roof, you can add the walls later, get a small inline baler this is because the bales are nicely sq and consistent, eye candy sells as much as quality. IMO your biggest problem is your HVAC job. Will you be able to be in the field when needed?


----------



## JMT

Trillium Farm said:


> Don't forget a tedder, if you want to make good quality is it's a must. Maybe not every year, but I wouldn't do without one. Do small bales, build a barn with only a roof, you can add the walls later, get a small inline baler this is because the bales are nicely sq and consistent, eye candy sells as much as quality. IMO your biggest problem is your HVAC job. Will you be able to be in the field when needed?


A good consistent income producing "problem" is nice to have. Your HVAC job may make timing difficult, especially when aiming for quality, but many have gotten a start that way. "Don't quit your day job" is good advice. That "problem" may just be the ticket to get you started.


----------



## hay wilson in TX

Answer Probably will not work for you.

Still here are some good hints from my file.

Here is the Ah Ha information I just fell upon this article. What I did was print off a number of charts and graphs. Then I copied the charts and graphs and recopied the charts and graphs for a larger more useful chart or graph, Georgia says that bermudagrass cut on 42 day cycles will provide 12% CP hay.

http://www.wvu.edu/~agexten/pubnwsltr/TRIM/5811.pdfThis publication provided me some first very good information, that got me on the roads to higher quality as well as higher quantity bermudagrass & alfalfa hay yields. .

This has some good information for small square baling also/
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/442/442-454/442-454_pdf.pdf

Dan Undersander has some good information that directly applies in the Humid East but requires some translation in the arid West.
http://alfalfa.ucdavis.edu/+symposium/proceedings/2008/08-235.pdf

The author of this one is an Ag Engineer who has measured with a fine micrometer But all his work has been done in Michigan, Wisconsin, and now Pennsylvania. Excellent information, but we must consider the local climates that he worked with.

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/wfc/proceedings2003/speedhaydrying.h...

Some information on raking.
http://www.uwex.edu/ces/forage/wfc/proceedings2003/speedhaydrying.h...

Some information from Mississippi.
http://msucares.com/pubs/infobulletins/ib0311.htm

http://msucares.com/pubs/infobulletins/ib0311.htm#part2

I have 50 acres if alfalfa ground plus 50 acres of bermudagrass hay ground.

I do it all with no help, cut, bale, pick up and put in the barn with no help.

Here it is a full time job even using a NH stack wagon plus a bern designed to have hay put in with a bale wagon.

I end up starting at first light and finishing as it gets dark. It is now enough income, as supplemented by social security.

There are many more publications that have a lot of value, to some nuggets of information. Forget TV for one.


----------



## CottageFarm

The only issue I see with small squares at least at first would be having consistent help to help bale along with running a stack wagon. I guess I could cut the field into sections and just bale say 25 to 30 acres at a time to not get ahead of myself. As far as my full time job goes I would just take off that week that the hay is ready to be cut. I know weather is a big factor in doing such a thing but i will have no other choice besides taking a long weekend off. I would love to make this a full time gig but I don't think I have enough acreage to do that. I also forgot about a Tedder but I was counting on maybe buying a discbine that would that throw out the entire width that it cuts eliminating a Tedder.


----------



## CottageFarm

Hay Wilson, why do you say it will not work for me? I know the full time job gets in the middle of it but that's what I have to work with. That's why I was thinking of all round bales for faster field time. Maybe you have a better suggestion for a different crop perhaps, I'm not set on hay but I do like making it.


----------



## hay wilson in TX

You will find you do not want to cut more hay than you can get baled plus get in the barn.

Figure 600 bales on the ground. That is 2 hours of baling and 4 hours of putting in the barn.

I can cut alfalfa at 11 mph with a 52 hp tractor and a 9 ft disk bind. I also have modified the mower to lay the hay out wide enough to cover 80% to 90% of the ground with a just enough open to allow me to judge the raking two days after mowing.

Read real close the WV Proper Handling and curing of Hay.

Rake at first light.

Bale @ 70% RH small bales & 65% RH Large bales, be finished by 50% maybe 55% RH

These RH are measured at ground level next to the cut hay.

You want to bale the stems to be snapping dry with a little humidity to dampen the leaves. Dew moisture evaporates quickly but stem moisture will need extra drying. It is the moisture in the stems that causes molding and hot bales.

I strongly advise using a disk conditioner that will accept the hay spreading kit for the machine.


----------



## CottageFarm

Thanks for all of the advice from everyone. I guess my take on all of this is, don't put all of your eggs in one basket, do square bales not rounds, check out the market and do some research on that. This is about 1 or 2 years out from actually happening but I want to make sure I have time to build and pay for a barn and possibly buy some equipment and get that paid for too. I also have to let the farmer know in advance about taking the land back.


----------



## JD3430

Well, I hate saying this, but I'm going to throw cold water on the idea IF you need to do it to make a living. 
In my 3rd full year, I'm at 150 acres now and gaining more each year, and I still can't make enough money to stop taking on other non farm work. There are quite a few asterisks to go with that. In 2 more years, a lot of my equipment will be paid off and I suspect it will still be in very good shape. This will free up substantial gains in take home pay. 
If you have to buy/finance substantial pieces of equipment and build a barn, and insurance and FUEL, fertilizer, oils, CROP SAVER, parts, etc, I can't believe you'd make more than a small side income off 80 acres. 
You'll have to have a serious job to pay the mortgage, put kids thru college, etc. (And maybe you have a great job, if you do then you'll be OK.) 
I have to plow snow, bush hog fields, build garages & barns in the off season to stay in farming. In 2 years, that may change substantially.
If I go over 250 acres, I think it would be time to heavily consider a big sq baler, then it's time to buy more expensive equipment. 
It never seems to end. It just keeps evolving.


----------



## CottageFarm

Jd 3430, I appreciate your input and I was kind of thinking that the whole time, I just would like to do something with the land besides bush hog the roads every month. Being its been in our family for over a 100 years and my past folks farmed it for years it will feel good to do something with it like back in the old days.


----------



## Nitram

I might suggest when you take vac days don't take all week. No need wasting days watching it cure. I take Wed to cut then use weekend to rake and bale when possible. As a solo act big rounds are more manageable but your market /area will dictate


----------



## Bishop

Not sure if you are married, but here is the equation I figured out to work fulltime and make hay:

*If Husband has fulltime job off farm, husband cuts hay, wife rakes and teds hay, husband bales hay, husband, wife and kids unload hay.*

So far so good. It helps that she has her own tractor (JD 4310 from the flower growing side of the farm, full e-hydro, a compact tractor that is just big enough to pull a rollabar rake or 10' tedder).

Been married almost 19 years and we make hay every year this way. Seems to work.

I guess it also helps that I'm done work at 3:30 and home by 3:45 and can bale.


----------



## CottageFarm

I am married, have been for 8 years, 2 daughters and another on the way. I've had my wife run the baler before while I was on the wagon stacking. She is capable of doing just as good as I am. With that said it make since for her being she works from home and is very flexible with hours. I on the other hand usually get off at 4 and get home at 5. But then again hay season is also a busy season for me as I do commercial HVAC and we all know summertime means a/c problems are going to occur. So that raises a little bit of a problem but usually if I have something to do I can get out of working late. This idea of me doing hay would hopefully produce a little money for college funds and whatever else. As my daughters get old enough to run equipment I will pretty much have a good team to work with me instead paying someone to help me.


----------



## JD3430

CottageFarm said:


> Jd 3430, I appreciate your input and I was kind of thinking that the whole time, I just would like to do something with the land besides bush hog the roads every month. Being its been in our family for over a 100 years and my past folks farmed it for years it will feel good to do something with it like back in the old days.


Hey you don't have to convince me! I'd already be haying it if I had 80 acres. Nothing could stop me. Especially when it comes to sentimental value as in your situation. 
Now whether or not it will show any profit???. That's another discussion. 
I'm kind of embarrassed at what my GP is, BUT I inherited nor bought any farm land. My parents gave me NO equipment. I decided to buy mostly lightly used or new stuff with my life's savings. I'm feeding the bulldog a lot of GP. 
2 years from now, I should be much better off. 
Best of luck and ask lots of questions. I did. Had no choice. Theres a lot of helpful people here


----------



## CottageFarm

Thanks for all of the tips and advice from everyone, I think over the next year or two I will research the market better along getting a barn put up. Then I will start looking for good used equipment so hopefully I will not have much overhead when I finally get in the field. I think I will start off by doing mostly rounds and a few acres in squares until I get everything situated.


----------



## Hugh

CottageFarm said:


> I am married, have been for 8 years, 2 daughters and another on the way. I've had my wife run the baler before while I was on the wagon stacking. She is capable of doing just as good as I am. With that said it make since for her being she works from home and is very flexible with hours. I on the other hand usually get off at 4 and get home at 5. But then again hay season is also a busy season for me as I do commercial HVAC and we all know summertime means a/c problems are going to occur. So that raises a little bit of a problem but usually if I have something to do I can get out of working late. This idea of me doing hay would hopefully produce a little money for college funds and whatever else. As my daughters get old enough to run equipment I will pretty much have a good team to work with me instead paying someone to help me.


I just posted this video on another thread, but it is worth watching many times in my opinion. Show this vid to your girls, and wife. Hell, i would make my girls write an essay on this video. I think most of us are losing the real American "Can Do" attitude. I'm guilty of that myself from time to time.


----------



## Hugh

CottageFarm said:


> My plan was just to use this as a good starting point to get into the field. I know for this amount of acres I could do a lot better money wise by going with square bales vs round bales but we are talking more money for equipment and a bigger barn. The market is here for quality hay, the problem around here is a lot of people produce hay but they go off of quantity not quality. This is my whole reason for getting into this type of farming because of the quality of hay around is not that great.


What I do is lab test every cut, and give this info to my customers. I send samples to Ag Health Laboratories (they are certified) and I give a copy of the results to every customer. If the quality of my alfalfa is low, for example "utility grade," I tell my customers and charge accordingly. If the test is very high, I charge a lot more and give them the reasons based on the science. In this way, my customers trust me. I will NEVER lie to make a sale. If you grow hay and make a sincere effort to grow the best you can and be sincere and always honest with your customers, you will do extremely well. In fact, you will succeed beyond your greatest expectations. If it is a bad cut, TELL YOUR CUSTOMERS IT IS A BAD CUT! Tell all, never shade the truth. If you do this, will do much better than you ever thought. Strict honesty has a premium, in that, it builds on itself. You can't be totally honest with your customers unless you lab test your product. My views...


----------



## CottageFarm

That video I've seen before on YT, she does a very good job with it too. Hard work is something I'm not afraid of but I can't say that about my daughters quite yet. As far as a hay test go, I do plan on doing those just so I know what I'm producing. Just because it smells good and looks good, doesn't mean it's good. So without testing in my opinion you don't know what you really have.


----------



## Tim/South

If I ever go back to square bales I will buy an accumulator.

Round bales are great of us as we feed all of our hay. If I was selling hay then I would be making squares.


----------



## hay wilson in TX

Hugh has a good management thing with his hay testing of each cutting.

Keep a eye on the mineral analysis to monitor fertility.

Hay analysis usually has CP not nitrogen, So just take the CP divided by 6.25 for N %.


----------



## 8350HiTech

CottageFarm said:


> That video I've seen before on YT, she does a very good job with it too. Hard work is something I'm not afraid of but I can't say that about my daughters quite yet. As far as a hay test go, I do plan on doing those just so I know what I'm producing. Just because it smells good and looks good, doesn't mean it's good. So without testing in my opinion you don't know what you really have.


I'm assuming you're not expecting to gro 80 acres of alfalfa. 4-5 cuttings per year is a lot of vacation days. So if you're growing grass, smelling good and looking good DOES mean it's good. That's what sells. Hay testing has been beaten to death here on HT and, whether growers like it or not, customers do not care about analysis on grass hay. There are always exceptions, but that is the rule.


----------



## CottageFarm

8350HiTech, I'm not saying looks and smells don't sell, I just it thought would be good to have that info not only for me but just in case someone asked for it. I appreciate the advice.


----------



## Tim/South

CottageFarm said:


> 8350HiTech, I'm not saying looks and smells don't sell, I just it thought would be good to have that info not only for me but just in case someone asked for it. I appreciate the advice.


We tested our hay when we sold square bales. We made copies and gave them to our customers. Our customers liked having the analysis.


----------



## shortrow

If you have a good gut feeling about it, go for it. With effort, it will work out. You will have hay that gets rained on just like the rest of us do. Make the best of it and trudge forward. If it were all about profit, I'd have quit some time ago. Don't assume too much debt starting out, but go after it if it's what you want. Sometimes you will feel defeated, pride in what you are doing will keep you going.


----------



## Deere7930L

You might wanna just consider starting off on the smaller side just put some of the 80 acres in Hay at first and then add more every year


----------



## CottageFarm

I thought of starting with half of the field but I'm not to sure if the current farmer will like that kind of deal. I guess I can always ask and see what his thoughts are. The only other thing I worry about is when they spray weed killer or other things, that some of it would get on my hay and kill it.


----------



## rjbaustian

Just jump in. It sounds like you really want to do it, and you have great intentions. Its not going to be easy, as im sure you know. Im working full time off the farm as a paramedic, and still haying full time. Lucky for me, I get my 40 in in 2 days, so its a little easier for me in that regard. I think doing some round, and some small is a great idea. As far as the building goes, id go hoop building. Just need a rain cover really, and cheaper. And, you could build it yourself. Ill be expanding next year by 25 acres, to bring me up to 75, and Ill need to put up a building when I do that. Ill be going the hoop route. I don't remember who said they purchased new, to nearly new equipment, but that's a great idea. I learned the hard way, and that's what I do now. Good luck!


----------



## Hokelund Farm

rjbaustian said:


> Just jump in. It sounds like you really want to do it, and you have great intentions. Its not going to be easy, as im sure you know. Im working full time off the farm as a paramedic, and still haying full time. Lucky for me, I get my 40 in in 2 days, so its a little easier for me in that regard. I think doing some round, and some small is a great idea. As far as the building goes, id go hoop building. Just need a rain cover really, and cheaper. And, you could build it yourself. Ill be expanding next year by 25 acres, to bring me up to 75, and Ill need to put up a building when I do that. Ill be going the hoop route. I don't remember who said they purchased new, to nearly new equipment, but that's a great idea. I learned the hard way, and that's what I do now. Good luck!


Yep, educate yourself as much as possible and just jump in. Be smart, safe, and financially responsible. You will never have the kinks worked out before you jump in.


----------



## Coondle

As always on HT there are pearls of wisdom here.
JD 3430 hit the nail on the head when he said:
"If I go over 250 acres, I think it would be time to heavily consider a big sq baler, then it's time to buy more expensive equipment.
It never seems to end. It just keeps evolving."
In Australia we refer to this as being like painting the Sydney Harbour bridge. You get to the end of the job and it is time to start all over again. You are never finished maintaining, upgrading, ,planning, marketing, and innovating.
I will not go over the range of very good advice except for two points. The advice here although for NA is applicable even in the land Downunder because the advice given here has been logical, conservative and financially sensible with cautionary notes on time, labour, markets and weather constraints.
The three exceptions I will emphasise are:
Do not depend on one customer to buy your hay. You are at that buyer's mercy and when it comes to money they can be merciless, so spread your customer base, so you may need to spread your offerings.
Be brutally honest with your customers, you will not lose a customer be being absolutely honest although it may cost you that sale. Trust is hard to build, easy to lose, it is built not bought.

I will add my $0.02 worth , except with the falling Aussie $ it is now worth closer to $0.01.

Do not have high expectations of profit. Run your family budget on breakeven for hay at best. Why too many people strike financial difficulty is their income expectations are higher than reality, and spend to their expectations.
If you end up with a profit that is then a bonus, icing on the cake whatever you want to call it. As a bonus, it can be put away as a buffer for the inevitable unexpected costs and occasionally the family can be treated.

Start out working as much as possible with what you have got, do not spend money for the sake of it, that is either overcapitalising , or worse, overextending. A very good 15 foot haybine would most likely be cheaper to buy than a 10 foot discbine and knock down near as much hay per hour behind your 80 hp tractor as a 10 foot discbine behind the same tractor. If it works out profitable, upgrade later from hay income.

There is one thing for sure, you are in for a bumpy ride, many ups and downs. the ups are easy to remember and the downs fade with time.

Enjoy the good times!


----------

