# Growing hay in MT



## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

Hey ya'll I have a farm in Richlands NC and just purchased a farm in Butte MT. Our primary resident will be in MT and we have 40 acres there. We are a horse farm and I'm not looking at hay as my primary job, but I'm able to do it any day and any time of the day and any day of the week. So with that said we want to grow alfalfa and have enough to support our farm, and my cousins two horses. I was looking at just planting 5-10 acres this spring and starting off small. So that would be plenty for us as I only need hay in the winter as they will be grazing the other 25 acres (factor in 5 acres for my crap).

From what I have read you can get 3 tons per acre which I'm not sure til I start talking to the locals, irrigation set up and such. I have no idea how many cuttings I can get but my guess would be 2 and 3 if your lucky. If I get 3 tons an acre that would be plenty of hay for me. Right now I go through 18 tons a year of just grass hay in NC and that is feeding everyday almost year round.

I'm 26 years old and I want to have the right equipment and I know that I'm going to do this the rest of my life since my wife will always have a ton of horses. The one thing I want to buy new is a tractor as it will be my life and used all the time and I feel it is better to buy new then dump thousands in a used and end up buying new in 10 years after already dumping the amount for a new in a used one during those 10 years. Been there done that and not doing it again.

Here in NC we do mostly a coastal grass hay that weighs around 700lbs and get four cuts on a well / irrigated pasture with hog shit from the pond. My friend has a new holland tractor and I can't remember the model but I know it isn't more than 30-40 hp. Anyways we have no issues with that tractor down here and will do anything we can throw at it down here.

So up in Montana I'm hearing the bales of alfalfa weigh about 1500lbs and I know that tractor couldn't lift it five feet in the air without tipping forward on two wheels. What is a good horsepower for a tractor? What is ya'lls favorite tractor brand and why? I'll start with this and we'll go from there and move forward a little at a time so it doesn't get crazy complicated. Thanks


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

You can make 700 lb. bales in MT as well.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

You might want to re-think the "New" part in tractor....as the latest models are choked to death with emission restrictions....called Tier 4 emissions. I would suggest you spend your money wisely on a late model Tier 3 emissions which would be about a 2012 and before. I do not think I would get any smaller than a 80 pto horsepower tractor for what you are describing....100 would be better, but it is according to what you want to spend. Good luck....winters are long in MT for a Southern boy.

Regards, Mike


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

Originally from there. Military moved me everywhere and last was NC for 6 years. Now we are moving back home and being back around family. thanks for the emissions info. Definitely don't want a tier 4. I had heard people say tier 4 but wasn't sure exactly what it meant.

I have no problem buying a tractor that is five years old or less. Just tired of fixing other people's mess on something I will rely on so much


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

You may want to rethink planting straight Alfalfa. Horses do better on grass based hay and pasture.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

1.

Good call on rounds vs squares. Less work. Cheaper.

2.

60 pto hp will do what you need. 80 would be better but more costly and less efficient.

3.

As far as tractors:

I like my Kubota (m7040). A lot of folks on here have similar with great experiences as well.

That being said: If going blue-stay away from workmaster. Uncle has one and it dis impresses me each time I see it.

I would bet whichever brand you choose has good and not so good models.

4. Welcome to haytalk. Many on here who share their knowledge and experience .


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Vol said:


> You might want to re-think the "New" part in tractor....as the latest models are choked to death with emission restrictions....called Tier 4 emissions. I would suggest you spend your money wisely on a late model Tier 3 emissions which would be about a 2012 and before. I do not think I would get any smaller than a 80 pto horsepower tractor for what you are describing....100 would be better, but it is according to what you want to spend. Good luck....winters are long in MT for a Southern boy.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Good advice. But if I had to start with 80 or 100 hp I wouldn't be farming. Hopefully my next one will be that big.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Rounds are a good call for you I think since you are going to be feeding it all yourself. Also storage outside is better with rounds if that is what you are going to do. 3 tons an acre seems a little low if there is irrigation on your acreage. But then I don't know Montana. I also agree on maybe thinking about a grass/alfalfa mix or maybe even just straight grass. Depends on what your horses or I guess it's your cousins horses do with themselves. Working horses or stand around and do nothing horses that have a place to go in and keep warm when it gets cold.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

You are probably 5,000 - 6000ft elevation and your growing season is a short 80 or so days. I'm guessing 2-3 cuts. Check with Montana State University and there are several guys over there that have a high level of knowledge about alfalfa. I believe Roundup Ready alfalfa was developed there. I would also spend a good deal of time seeing what other producers are doing locally. Don't try and re-invent the wheel, start with all the Montana State University and local information you can get before jumping in the water. You most likely need irrigation and water rights, my guess. Do soil tests. Some soils over there can be very alkaline. Find your local Wilber Ellis office, they blend fertilizers for the farm markets here in Montana and they have employees with decades of experience. There are also other forages that will grow in Montana. No question I would visit or call Montana State University and talk to the PhD's there. They chew and wear overalls, aren't uppity and really know their stuff.


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

I need to sit down and find out what a good seed would be. I want a 50/50 mixture of alfalfa and whatever is a good grass that grows great. I need to research that and we are bringing a bunch of hay up with us as I don't want them to switch over to much alfalfa for a bit. We have 2 months of hay coming with us so that will give us a good mixture. I don't like alfalfa much unless you use your horse a lot as there is no reason they need it on a daily basis. Different subject different time.

The 3 tons an acre was a guess and gave me wiggle room for more or less when I was looking at my numbers. My horses are working horses just about daily and my cousins horses are just pretty to look at. Haha.

We get up there in January so I can't get to much on answer. I believe we are 6,000 elevation and I will not be trying to reinvent The wheel. I'll get back tomorrow as I'm going to bed and thanks for getting back so quick


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Like others have said, rounds would seem a better choice in your case, good call. Again, good choice on a mix too. As far as tractor HP, if using a smaller round baler, 75 hp is plenty if not terribly hilly, but tractors are one area where more is usually better. If I was doing 4' X 5' rounds, I'd prefer to have at 75-100 hp on hilly ground, just for stability. Make sure it has a front end loader and you can thank me later! 

Something you may want to consider when choosing round balers, rule of thumb down in my parts is, 1 4X5 bale/animal/month. If you don't have enough animals to clean the bale up pretty quick, they'll tend to spoil some and get wasted once the bale is opened up, especially with horses. They do much better if fed out under a cover of some type if not eaten quickly. Lots of horse folks around here prefer a 4' X 4' so it gets consumed a bit faster.

Best of luck in your new endeavor!

Steve


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

Only a couple hours from me. I have successfully planted Potomac orchard and Paddock Brome grass. It was a blend that worked well.

As to feeding straight alfalfa, that is all mine get in the winter. There have been a number of studies done by equine nutritionists and you can find support for your theory no matter what theory that might be.

I think that you would be better off buying an older tractor and a newer baler. When I started I purchased a good used 1972 JD 4000 rated at about 95 hp. It has run every hay season since then and has only required a clutch, rear main seal, and alternator. I have put countless hours on it and will put countless more. For my money a newer baler is the way to go. Talk about nickel and dime a guy to death.

Most of all. Welcome home.

Edit- You will get 2 cuttings most years and 3 if you are lucky. You can count on 3 ton/acre most years and a great year is 5 ton.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Meadow brome would be a good option also in a grass/alf mix.A lot higher yielding then the ols smooth brome.

I'd go with a later maturing variety of orchard like Crown Royale or Latar.It will produce more and mature with the alfalfa vs a early variety will be over mature when alfalfa starts blooming.

You could use either in a mix with alfalfa or both.


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

Dubltrubl: thanks and here we go through a round bale one a week if not more for a group of horses that are on it 8 hours a day. Yea I know all about horses taking a bale completely apart, stretch it out everywhere, piss and crap all over it and then be like eww I don't want to eat this. Haha yea we now have all our bales on a deck with a lean to over it so it keeps the weather away and keeps it where I'm able to get 95% of it eaten by the horses so no to little waste. Yea our tractor here has the front loader and will not ever have one without it. In my opinion if you have only one tractor it is useless if you don't have the front loader. I couldn't do 75% of the things I do without it.

Lostin55: good so my numbers weren't off with 3/acre and 2 cuttings. I will look at any and all tractors and just like to get a newer/ish one since I'm young and will be putting 40 more years on it just myself and then pass it on to the kids. Down here I have had better luck with used old balers then a used old tractor.

Swmnhay: that was going to be my next question of what type of grass matures close to the same time or not quicker than alfalfa does. Thanks again and I'll make sure to keep this updated as we progress. We are moving the first of January so not much going on now except packing, and getting ready to drive 3000 miles. I'm glad to be going home as I have traveled easily 25,000 miles with these horses because of military.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Brain,

The closest Wilber Ellis to Butte is in Dillon. The main guy there is Bill Wehri. He knows quite a lot about forages in Montana. His phone # is: (406) 683-5355.


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

Thanks


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

It's great to be headed back home and you certainly know what you are heading into, but what a time to be going from south to north. Did that once, leaving College Station, TX Feb. 1 in short shirt sleeves and arriving in Bozeman to all white a few days later. Didn't see the tops of the past year's harvested barley stubble until mid-June in the Gallatin Valley. Ended up 6 years in Bozeman and 7.5 at Huntley doing research at the Southern Ag Research Center, as far north in Montana as a south Texas kid dared venture, and my wife and I loved it. We did even worse than heading north in winter as we moved back to Texas heat the first of August.

Look long and hard and you should be able to find a good, low hour JD tractor with 65+ pto hp even if you will need to add a front end loader. You might consider hiring your baling done for a few years before jumping into ownership of your own baling equipment. This would give you time to find a good used baler, cutter, rake, etc. Also, consider a deer proof fence around your hay storage, but being a native Montanan, you have a better feel for this than I.


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## barnrope (Mar 22, 2010)

Don't be afraid of a 30 plus year old tractor like a JD 4240 or 4440 or any of that style tractor. In John Deere, anything from a 4230 to a 4455 would be great for you. They are rugged, have all the power you want with plenty in reserve, and most will keep on going long after you have to stop to fix the newer ones. Also they aren't going to break the bank to buy or fix compared to a new one.


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## jeff outwest (Sep 13, 2009)

I farm in a similar climate to that of Butte Montana. First and fore most go climb into a few tractor cabs. A cabless tractor is not an option in Butte Montana. Buy the one that fits you best, no fun driving an uncomfortable tractor. I would look into small bales; 210 a ton for a 65 lbs, versus 135 for a round bale. 40 acres of orchard grass and alfalfa you could be looking at 200 ton of hay on an annual basis. If you like running machinery? Hauling hay with a balefork and accumulator is fun. Plus you never have to handle the hay by hand.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Merry Christmas Brian8....and we are grateful for your service to our country.....it's good to know that we still have........a few good men.

Best Regards, Mike


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

I'm glad I joined this group as ya'll are a great group and open handed people. Thanks for all the informationa dn it will all be looked at in great detail. I was thinking about letting a custom baler come dbale for us for a few years and that would give me an idea if I want to do it on my property, how much I can yield from my property, and then like ya'll said I can take my time to buy my farm equipment and not be rushed into buying something that is overpriced or overworked. That gives me some time to get back into my state, relax, see family, get the business up and running and then find out what the best options are for hay.

Vhaby: yes it is more of a pain to move back in th middle of winter and trust me I would have loved to move in spring but the stars aligned and we have to be out of this house by January to get the renters in.

Vol: thank you and everyone on here have a great Christmas and New Years. I look forward to listening and working with everyone here as our business grows.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

Sounds like you have got some good advice! I am in the eastern part of MT and it was a balmy 55 or so today! I sure would take the advice and go look at a few tractors and test drive them. Definitely want the cab part, 3pt, both ptos and 2 remotes. All colors have there good and bad. Biggest thing is to see if there is any service history.

Have you looked at Craigslist over there? It surprises me what is on there! Also if you find something that you have a question about, get ahold of me. I might have some time to go look at one with you too. Winter is vacation time you know!

You might pickup a 4' wide round baler real reasonable. It would be a lot easier on your equipment and you aren't doing a big acreage. I would suggest getting it custom cut and bale it yourself so you can't blame anyone else for the quality of hay you make.

Happy Trails!


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

My guess is it will take me about three years before I get everything in order.

Year 1: I will be purchasing a tractor as soon as I find one, then with the recommendations from here I will buy a baler next so that I can bale my own fields. I like that idea. IM going to try and get my field planted this spring by someone. I'm expecting only one cut from it so it can get well established, strong root system, with good growth towards I'm thinking around August and then leave it to get strong for the winter.

Year 2: over the off season/ winter buy a baler so that I will be able to bale my fields for two and if lucky three cuts. I will get everything else done by a custom cutter.

Year 3: purchase another attachment to get me closer to being self efficient for baling my own hay and not needing a custom baler. Hopefully by the end of year three I will have everything needed to be completely self sufficient. How does this all sound to ya'll and I'm in no rush so that's why I'm taking so long to get everything together. My end goal is no longer than 5 years as I will be having a lot of other things that will be needing money.

I was looking throu Craigslist again and I was wondering what ya'lls opinion is on this tractor and price. I obviously kno it will be dependant upon it being mechanically sound which I will know when I go and look at it, but wanted to see if ya'll would even consider it for my setup? Thanks

http://greatfalls.craigslist.org/grd/4751821106.html


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Brian8 It would likely do the job but if you can afford a newer tractor i would recommend buying one. That would make a good second tractor for someone though. Parts availability, reliability, hyd capability etc come to mind. A newer MFWD with a quick attach, not pin on, bucket and bale spear will cost more but when it's 30 below and you are feeding in the snow you may be smiling...not stuck. Just my two cents.


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## Shetland Sheepdog (Mar 31, 2011)

Prolly could work out for you, although you would prolly need hearing protection in that cab! Prolly a $7,000.00 dollar tractor, but the new(er) tires and green paint, as well as the cab, might make it worth the asking price in some eyes! I'm just not a die hard fan of Mother Deere!
JMHO, Dave


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Brian8 said:


> I was looking throu Craigslist again and I was wondering what ya'lls opinion is on this tractor and price.


3020's are highly desirable, but I would be hesitant about that many hours on this model of tractor.....and like carcajou says, 4wd for a primary tractor would be strongly recommended.....and many of the more current Deere tractors tend to endure the higher hours more so than the earlier models. I always liked those old style Deere cabs....always thought they looked really cool....and the old Oliver cabs also.

Regards, Mike


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## Brian8 (Dec 8, 2014)

Thanks guys and I think I'm going back to my original plan of buying a newish tractor. I think in the long run it will be better for me, but difinitely not getting a tier 4. It will be a lot more money but well worth it in the long haul. I'll keep looking at the older ones and who knows what I may find.


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## PackMan2170 (Oct 6, 2014)

I'd look for something in the 1990s or even 80s vintage with less than, say, 3500 hours. If its gonna be your only tractor for a while, I'd go for MFWD and probably a loader, too. Something 65-85hp would probably suit you well. And true, a bigger tractor will burn a little more diesel, but I can't think of many times when I have thought to myself "boy, I wish I had a smaller tractor"....

X2 on looking into a small baler. And even without an accumulator, moving 18 tons of small bales (or even twice that) by hand is no big deal. If you can find someone to custom cut (and rake/ted if necessary [I don't know whats S.O.P. for MT]) for a few years while you save up for a some equipment of your own, you'll be rolling in the green before you know it!

Green hay, that is.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

That is a clean tractor with the same vintage loader. It would serve your purpose, but too much money for it. You want a quick attach loader I think too. Saves on the tractor and loader by taking it off when not needed.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Brian, I'll give my 2c worth as well. I've had a stud farm for many years and have been involved with horses longer than you've been alive  As far as hay mix alfalfa/timothy 40/60 up to 50/50 max, 1st cut for your horses 2nd cut for sale if surplus. Equipmet Tractor about 60hp PTO (85hp PTO if using a discbine) *New Inline small square baler*, IMO quality of hay superior to round bales, inline because you have less leaf loss and also makes nice bales for sale and you can bale faster and straddle the windrow which makes it easier to manouver in the field. Have a farmer cut your hay, but do your own raking/tedding and baling, accumulator and grapple a must. The only new piece ought to be the baler as it id the most finnicky. This way you won't have to rely on help to draw your hay in. I don't think you'll get a 3rd cut. Don't get too hung up on the age of the tractor, most tractors will do the job, but be especially careful about the baler, hay doesn'y wait for the baler to be fixed. Build a feeder with a roof, to keep the hay dry, in the paddocks. Good luck in your endeavours!


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