# Speed Difference between sickle and rotary swathers



## KRob (Jul 11, 2010)

Im pretty sure this is a well known fact and since i have been out of the business for awhile i dont know.

I remember running older New Holland 9ft swathers at a little faster then a walking pace or a slow jog. How fast in comparison can you run these new rotary swathers.

Thanks
Rob


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## BCFENCE (Jul 26, 2008)

By rotary im guessing you mean disc, If so im guessing the awnser would be, A s fast as the ground will let you. It seems to me the taller the alfalfa the better it cuts it. If its short i have to slow done or it leaves alittle.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

Newer sickle machines, when properly maintained, will do a good job at 7 mph. Generally, a disc cutter can cut up to 15, if you like to go that fast, have the power, and aren't afraid of flying thru the window if you hit a badger hole. We gave up on that high speed stuff, and prefer to run 8-9 with the disc cutter, and 6-7 with the sickle. The sickle will do a better job in almost all conditions, but for ease of operation esp. with an older operator, its hard to beat a discbine. Cost to operate and maintain seem to be very similar, with the sickle machine having smaller expenses more frequently and the disc machine having big expenses less frequently. Disc machine will use twice as much fuel per acre.


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## gman1772 (Mar 20, 2010)

The number 1 advantage on the TX gulf coast is durability. Gopher, fireant, and crawfish mounds tend to do a nasty number on sickle cutters. Disc cutters are a little faster but you don't have the binding problems you can get into with sickles. Blades swap quicker than teeth.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I usually run around 10 mph after first cutting. If the first cutting is early or light I also run 10 mph, on a normal 1st cutting I run about 8mph.

Run a NH 1431 13' discbine with a White 2-110. The worst I did this year was mowing some really heavy down hay and burned not quite 3 quarts to the acre of bio diesel, been getting most of it done on 2 quarts or a little less.

On light hay a sickle does a better job, on really tough conditions a discbine really shines. Personally though, couldn't pay me enough to go back to a sickle. On light hay I've found it's pointless to run WOT and idle back a little till it cuts nice.


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## KRob (Jul 11, 2010)

Thanks guys for answering my curiosity. Now am curious does one really use up more fuel then another, all things being equal of course same cutting width.

Thanks Rob


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## Ridgerunner (Jul 10, 2009)

I have a 1965 JD 4020 diesel, with M&W turbo. I guess it is about 100HP.

When I use my M&W HC701 9ft disc mower (no conditioning rolls), the tractor will lose some RPM and grunt on hills and thick 1st cutting hay.

When I use my CaseIH 1490 12ft haybine, the tractor acts like it isn't even there. It never looses any RPM.

I haven't used the haybine enough yet to say for sure that it will save fuel, but the lack of black smoke coming out of the stack is a good indication.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Ridgerunner said:


> I haven't used the haybine enough yet to say for sure that it will save fuel, but the lack of black smoke coming out of the stack is a good indication.


Well the thing is there, which one is getting more done? Granted I went from a 12' haybine to a 13' discbine so even driving at the same speed as I did with the haybine, I'm cutting a foot more per pass and getting more done.

Time is irreplaceable, while more fuel can be bought.

I'm really interested to see what my fuel consumption will be on the rest of the cuttings. Meter was busted last year on the fuel pump so I couldn't really say what consumption was last year. I do know I got the discbine after first cutting was done last year and for the rest of the year, couldn't even drive fast enough to make the mowing tractor grunt.


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## man of steel (Feb 1, 2010)

IAhaymakr said:


> Disc machine will use twice as much fuel per acre.


 That's not what I found. More per hour for sure but about the same per acre. Mowing with a 499 NH and a 2412 Gehl


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## nwks baler (Jul 18, 2008)

My JD R450 is cutting irrigated alfalfa at 17-18 mph, if your fields are smooth it's no problem running fast. Fuel consumption is .38 Gallon per acre. That is the same fuel usage as our old JD4995's, however they would only run 13-14 in irrigated alfalfa.


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## KRob (Jul 11, 2010)

This is real interesting, it seems to me that the collective answer is the Disc cutter cut quicker but sips a little more fuel. WHile the sickle cuts slower and uses less fuel. However by the time the field is done the Disc and sickle use about the same amount of fuel but you have used less time with the disk...and time is precious.

Thanks guys very interesting most definitely gave me something to mull over for a few days.


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## D.C.Cattle Company (Jul 19, 2010)

Just this year I moved from sickle type mowers to disc mowers. What a wonderful experience. I can go as fast as my but can stay in the tractor seat. Tangled up or laying over hay cuts clean and the biggest thing for me is point row mowing. Many of my hay fields are not square and cause us to have multplie point rows. Disc mower walks right through that where a sickle can leave tracks, plug or slow you down to a crawl.
My vote is for dics mowers


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## Hayking (Jan 17, 2010)

nwks baler said:


> My JD R450 is cutting irrigated alfalfa at 17-18 mph, if your fields are smooth it's no problem running fast. Fuel consumption is .38 Gallon per acre. That is the same fuel usage as our old JD4995's, however they would only run 13-14 in irrigated alfalfa.


How do you like your new deere compared to the 4995?


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## nwks baler (Jul 18, 2008)

Hayking, I like my R450 much better than the 4995's. Better steering, very nice ride. I also like the faster ground speed for swathing, doesn't matter much to me on the road because I always haul it everywhere. I was dissapointed that Deere did not increase the HP more it could use more.


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## maknhay (Jan 6, 2010)

I'd never go back to a sickle. Changing sections amongst the bugs while sitting with your knees up to your ears and the reel teeth poking the back of your head ain't fun no more. My last two sickle machines were MacDons......very good machines at that. Pulled them with a 4020 and used around a half gallon to the acre. To put down an 80 would take all day. Now with my 9260 Hesston we can put down up to 24 acres per hour on a half gallon per acre. We run B&D rollers with air bag pressure and it will use 3/4 gallon on heavy first crop. We carry a DeWalt 18volt impact and can change out a couple of knives in 5 minuets.


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## cdhayman (Jan 25, 2011)

there is no way that you would use twice as much fuel in a disc mower than in a sickle. with the larger engines, you do use more fuel, but not twice as much. back when we ran sickle machines, in our heavy grass, we would be lucky if we went 2mph, but now in most heavy grass, we can still average 11mph with the disc mowers. we would have to run twice as many machines to stay ahead if they were sickles. it's common sense.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

...just to qualify what has been said, I don't know if fuel consumption is double or not but, I have a 70 PTO horse power tractor and pull a 10.2' Jonhn deere disc mower. This mower has rotary conditioners running on the high speed setting, with the concave fully closed this will work the absolute sh*t out of the tractor in tall grass, it only has the power to do about 7- 8mph. Now, we go on the other side of the coin, my neighbor has a 499 NH 12' cut center pivot haybine, he cuts his hay with a 4610 Ford (around 50 PTO HP). IN tall grass my mower could use ALOT more power in front of it. If the hay goes down the disc mower will cut it better than the sickle. If the hay is light you will NOT be able to go fast enough to overcome the disc mowers.
So for all of what has been said if crop is even and standing me and the neighbor start cutting at the same my tractor slightly larger and my cut smaller and end pull so I have to work in lands. He goes in cutting 12', has a center pivot tounge and uses less power. In this case you tell me, I am pretty sure the sickle will use substantialy less fuel.
On the other hand if you have lots of power (120 plus), you will run a discbine as fast as you want through anything. I don't so I bought a 14' Hesston, I just can't justify working the guts out of my equipment. And I am not replacing the tractor for this reason either.
Every situation is different for each individual, we need to keep that in mind and not be so critical of one another, because what I just described would be at least double the fuel consumption... and even slower.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

No doubt, a disc mower will eat the horsepower, however if the proper sized tractor is used on it I haven't noticed substantially more fuel consumption considering I run at least 2-6 mph faster with my discbine than I could with my NH499 sickle mower. Sickle mower was 12', discbine is 13'. Haybine also had a bad habit of jamming in down hay especially if the hay was leaning into the rollers.

Far as short/light hay, idle down and shift up.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

Yeah don't get me wrong discbines are what you want if you have alot of hay to cut nothing will cut like them if you have enough tractor. If I could get away with my JX80 case ih on a JD disc bine I would, fact is it just works it too hard for my liking. JD ask for 80 HP on the 920 that I borrowed from a neighbour. He uses a 7610 on it usually, last year we got busy doing haylage, the big trsctor was on the harvestor, so I used the 6210 on the discbine and my JX was hauling wagons. I switched out for my tractor after three or four hours of cutting because the 6210 was even slower then my JX80, even to the point that it began to heat up. I put the ih on it went up a gear and stayed cool. This is only a nine foot wide machine, I was floored at first by how hard the discbine drives, I just don't have the power to go faster than sickle bar speed. Don't think that you are going to use the same tractor to cut hay if you go to a discbine... unless you use 120 HP on the sickle mower!!!


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## dbergh (Jun 3, 2010)

Question for you disc guys:
I have never run a disc mower but have had several custom guys bring in a disc mower over the years and every one of them did a poor job compared to the sickle machines. Crop is alfalfa usually 12 to 14 inches high. Left too much material uncut and layed over etc. 
Also wondering about how they handle the material itself-are they too tough on alfalfa?
I love their ability to cut at higher speeds based on some of the videos floating around but need them to do a clean job of cutting as well.
Any thoughts?


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

if the crop is light you gotta gear up and run the pto slower to try to reduce some of the wind turbulance that puches the stems over, but it can be done. This is one of the few areas that the disc definatly falls behind the sickle, the same as the sickle falls behind in down tangled crop. Its a trade off


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Also helps if on lighter crops if you have new or very sharp knives installed, they're only getting one chance to cut it at higher speeds and before it gets pushed over. I'll make sure I have good sharp ones for first cutting, then when the time comes for cutting lighter/shorter hay is when I install new ones to really get that sharp edge and square corner on the end of the knife.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Many guys around me who custom cut run way toooooo fast -- they're usually getting paid by the acre, so the faster they run, the more they make per hour.

Also, a couple of them run really old equipment and I'd be surprised if their knives aren't almost triangle shaped.

Finally, a lot of people set their mower height once and never adjust it for the ground or crop. For pure alfalfa, I run my disc mower at the closest setting (about 1.5"); for grass or grass/alfalfa, I run at the highest setting (about 3.5").

Use them once, if you ain't happy, find somebody else. It's probably not the mower.

Ralph


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Does anyone run the high lift blades like I do ? I think they are 14 degree but don't hold me to that. They do a much better job of lifting the hay to cut. Mike


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Yup, I use the 14's, mine had the flat ones on it when I bought it, was the first thing I changed to get more lift, well that and they were so wore a person couldn't cut themselves on one to save their own life.


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## cattleranch (Dec 17, 2010)

I have cut over 14 mph with our MF 7465 Tier II and AGCO 1372 combo in really lush alfalfa without any problems, except I ran out of length in the field or else I could have gone faster. I do miss the relaxed pace of running a 499, but if you are an experienced operator with the rotary it is much more efficient. I say experienced because in lighter crops you need to have the perfect pto rpm to cut clean. Usually the faster the ground speed you have with a rotary, the better quality of cut. If you aren't a very good operator I would for sure recommend a sickle machine.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

I know the answer to this question but i am going to ask it any how. If you are travelling 15 mph cutting good heavy crop, how much material is going through the conditioner, and what kind of result do you get from it. If you want to run fast it will take longer to cure, and in turn longer before it can be baled, increasing the chance of rained on hay. But If you got a pile of hay to get cut in a short time that is what you got to do.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Wrong, same amount of material is going thru at 15 mph as 5 mph. You are just covering the ground faster. The rollers or impellors as well as the knives are going a lot faster than 15 mph. You are still just putting 10 or 13 or 15' of material thru at any one time, however wide your machine is. The only difference between 5 mph and 15 mph on a 13' machine in heavy crop is about 100 horsepower!


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

Well whatever way you want to look at it is fine with me but the fact of the matter is that every discbine manufacturer will tell you in its manuals to correct for under conditioning with impellers (not enough provided that the concave door is fully closed) your only recourse is to slow travel speed. The older deere's had two speeds for the rotor. So while you broke the statement down to the simplest form correctly its still true what I said, speed controls conditioning undenyably.
The same is done inversly, for too much leafloss and over conditioning speed up.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Think as you may on your impellor machine, but no matter how fast you drive with the roller machine, it still accelerates the material as it leaves the machine, hence you cannot drive fast enough to literally put more material into the rollers. The only way that ground speed can affect conditioning, the rollers or impellors must be turning at a speed somewhere close the speed of the material entering them.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

You are missing the point haybaler... I looked it up in some of JD's manuals online. It says quite clearly in the trouble shooting section under poor/no contioning- slow travel speed. too much leafloss- speed up. Check out OME86462 (JD manual#) I don't realy have any thing to give you to prove my point but, possibly some experience with differnt machines? In my time working in the John Deere ag. industry as a service technician (mechanic) you begin to see trends that relate to other people and their problems. Possibly the best way to prove my point would be for you to get one of these machines and try it out for yourself.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

Only two problems with that, its green and it has impellers.


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## Toyes Hill Angus (Dec 21, 2010)

You could be right. Personally I don't think that impellers are as good as the OEM rollers- without getting into the after market stuff like the super conditioners and so on.
Impellers are NOISY and they take power if the conditiong hood is closed. 
Leaf loss is sometimes quite high no mater what you do. 
But, other people in other situations LOVE impellers. Every one is in different situations.


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## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree with you Toyes, impellers are not for me. I did look up the JD manual online, and found what you said about ground speed. They only mention ground speed on impellor machines and it was the third thing to adjust after rotor speed and hood clearance. Roller machines make no reference to conditioning effects and ground speed. I know my New Holland manual does not make any claims to ground speed on conditioning. Speed limit on disc mowers as stated before are limited to two factors, horsepower and the ability of the operator to maintain position in the seat of the tractor.


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## cmsc (Feb 14, 2010)

I would never go back to sickle mower ever. we have had three pull behind new holland disc mowers two if them had rollers and one had the inpoller would never have that doing alfalfa worked great in greass but lost a day in alfalfa traded it back in on one with rollers after 2 years. Have had a New Holland 8090 self propelled with 720HD disc head. Will never go back to a pull type again. Really like the fact that i can cahnge the speed of the head from 1400 to 3500RPM and also change the height and how much down pressure is applied to the ground on the go. I usually run anywhere between 7 to 14 mph usually most of the tim 9 to 12mph and have plenty of power. when running 14 mph plus i average 29 acres an hour


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Anyone thats cut tall heavy crops like oat greenfeed with a rotary can tell you that the faster you cut the less conditioning you get, rollers or impellers. I run both types so i'm not biased on that point ether way.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

carcajou said:


> Anyone thats cut tall heavy crops like oat greenfeed with a rotary can tell you that the faster you cut the less conditioning you get, rollers or impellers. I run both types so i'm not biased on that point ether way.


I was thinking the same, just didn't reply. Unless a person was running aftermarket rollers with airbags and had em maxed, at some point with stock rollers and tension system, a certain point has to be reached when the mat of material gets thick enough that rollers could not possibly condition it all. Think about grabbing a pencil in both hands and breaking it, one is no problem, but if enough were tried at one time they couldn't be broke by hand. That point has to be reached in a moco if the crop was heavy enough and if enough horsepower was available so speed wasn't a limiting factor in the amount of material being fed between the rollers.


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