# Cattle guys What can I expect to make?



## JD3430

Cattle guys:
Lets say I buy a farm with room for 25-35 head of cattle. I will supply my own hay for winter months. I have an excess of cattle hay each year that ends up going to mushroom, so that wont be a problem. 
So anyhow, whats my upfront cost for calves? Im hearing $2.50/lb so a 300lb black angus calf is $700/each. Sound right? 
So now the big parts: how long till ready for market? I hear 20mos. 
What can I expect for selling price fully grown? what is butchering cost? 
I dont even know how to sell it to!!

Help me and my wife figure out what we could make of 30 cattle, I supply hay and "labor". Thanks


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## mlappin

Well if your just feeding them mulch hay might take longer than 20 months.

Gonna supplement with corn? We feed fines from the grain cleaner.

Strictly word of mouth here, have moved 5 the last 6 weeks or so with another going in Monday and Friday of next week.


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## JD3430

They would graze off ground 7mos. Plenty of good grass. Other 5 would be better than mulch hay-more like cattle hay. Yes, I would supply supplemental grains or corn. I do same for my neighbors cattle (he buys it, I feed it). I don't know what it costs/head for 20+ mos.


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## Bonfire

How many acres of good grass? Fertilizer program?


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## rjmoses

Live cattle is trading around $1.32; feeders around $1.65 at the CME right now. Getting close to being a good time to buy, but what happens to selling prices when you're ready?

Ralph


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## 8350HiTech

I'm guessing that the first assumption here is that "making" money won't actually include paying for the land and that you must want to raise cattle because the easiest thing to do to move excess cattle hay would be to take it to any of the Lancaster auctions.

Going on that premise, you should expect, as Marty says, longer than 20 months if you're feeding a lot of hay. However, if you're selling them privately, they certainly don't need fed to usda prime fatness. I have never had a customer complain about cattle being too lean. (They should at least resemble usda select, or you might get complaints) In this case, what you would sell them for has to be somewhat determined by your local market. I'm guessing it would be a good price, at least partially considering that the last half of beef I sold went to Wilmington. You could meet that demand and possibly set your profit margin.

I also wouldn't be buying black cattle unless you are sending them to auction. For private sales the way you feed them is going to affect your eating experience far more than breed. Save some money and buy off color beef breeds, unless you think you can market the angus name enough to get that extra initial expense back.


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## PaMike

www.agmarketnews.com

Sale barn reports for local markets. Look what feeder cattle and fats are bringing.

I would be real careful what I buy and dump off onto pasture. Buy some blacks out of VA or WV and dump them in your pasture and they might be up here in lanc county before you realized they are gone...

I feed holstein steers on grass. Run 1.5 lb/ day gain on GOOD grass, rotated with plenty of wooded shade. Animals consume/waste about 3% of body weight per day in hay. Supplement liquid molasses in the winter.

Cattle infrastructure is expensive. Concrete,gates,fences,loading chutes...unless you buy a place all ready setup you are better off like Hitech said and hauling the hay to auction.

Only way I really see cattle being worth it would be to find some customers that want to pay big bucks for grass fed or home raised beef.


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## BWfarms

I'm going to chime in on the color game, it does matter and it has always mattered. Blacks have traditionally brought more per pound. What most of the mistakes made are how you group your animals for sale. I'm willing to bet my groupings will always bring more money. One, I'll never put a red in with blacks, or a Baldie in with Charolais, or a Hereford in with Angus. Two, I will never mix sexes in a lot. Three, I will match them by size and build not age. Even groups of 10 always sell best. Horns, wild eyes, and pot bellies will always kill your payday.

Blacks rank supreme in a lot of minds for a lot of reasons but the number one reason, you can quickly tell its condition. You are not going to need Registered Angus, most stuff through sale barns go straight to feedlots or slaughterhouses. You want one breed/color only.

Farm to Table really depends on your price point, market, supply and demand. For it to pay your gross per animal needs to exceed 2x a yearly salebarn rate, cost of slaughter (58%-64% of live weight) plus your desired profit.


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## hog987

If you are going to be selling right to consumers its another learning curve. Some of the people who buy freezer beef will make the worst horse hay buyer seem mild. Every one wants the prime cuts. I have had people buy a half of beef, eat the prime cuts and want to return the rest because they say its too tough. People also want a AAA cut and lean or extra lean ground beef of the same animal. Does not work that way. A cow can't be both fat and thin at the same time.

Your area is different cause you get a decent price for mushroom hay. In my area some times people don't want to pay more than $40/ton for round hay so it makes sense to have cattle around to eat that extra type of hay. This year is different because of the drought but on a normal year I would have to work hard to get $100/ton for good hay.


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## BWfarms

I like to keep my marketing "secrets" to myself because I really had to learn from trial and error. You need to just find a butcher you like that will meet your state or USDA inspections for labeling. They will give you their fees whether by hanging weight, finished weight, or rarely live weight. I prefer hanging weight.

Current steer is almost gone (just a few roasts and hamburger left) in 2 days of sales. Plus I had the greatest compliment, myself and another company were low on cuts. Same customer first looked at my competitor who is very large, said he would have to get a certain cut from me. Big guy quickly discounted once he mention going to a 'new guy that's on the market'.


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## deadmoose

Do you have pther income you are looking to offset?

From what you say you sell your worst hay for, you are money ahead selling to mushroom folk vs feeding it yourself.

If you are going to lot them and grain em up that may be a different story.

You didn't say what your business plan was?

Finish and sell by quarters, etc. Finish and butcher usda sell cuts @ farmers market? Sell @ auction?

What are you going to do to market your product and who is gonna buy it?

Btw, $700 black calves are a thing of the past here. Maybe coming soon, but currently not in the ballpark. Last I checked.


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## Tim/South

JD, I am going to send you what we gave our customers back when we sold some as freezer beef. It is old and the $ numbers are not current but if will give you an idea on what people can expect to pay for a beef.

Also, Hog987 said a mouth full about customers and their expectations. A side of beef can not be made into all steak no matter what they see in the store. Trying to get a person to understand they need to select the cuts is a patient exercise. We had some very dissatisfied customers when they began to chew a grass fed beef. The steers were fat and they saw that before we delivered it to the processor. Claims were made the processor switched the meat or that we did not know what we were doing. The truth is that most grass fed beef I have seen were supplemented with feed. You can look at the cuts at Whole Foods and tell the beef was not 100% grass fed. Grass fed has a green tint to the marbling/fat. We mostly sold freezer beef that was finished on soy/peanut hulls/corn gluten. Was a lot easier on the teeth and jaw muscles.

We raised stockers for a few years in between our past and current cow/calf endeavors. To make it work we figured to sell at twice the purchase price. If we paid $400 back then, we needed to sell for $800 to make it work. Our profit came from how frugal we were getting the calf big enough to market. I was selling directly to a man who shipped pot loads to Kansas or North Texas to be finished. We have a long growing season and are able to keep them on grass 12 months if we drill winter grazing. We also make our own hay and fed hay free choice. We bought very little feed for these stockers. Feed lots were paid to do the feeding/finishing.

The cattle market is volatile right now. Prices had inched back up then fell 20 cents the last two weeks (locally). With low corn prices it seems cattle would be doing better. The current market is hard to figure.


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## azmike

We are holding off on our herd expansion, for the short run anyway. Our local sale barn auctions this week were down again 10$ on light calves and so on across the sale. I really want to buy on the bottom then have great prices with my spring calves--OK?


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## azmike

One of my long time rancher buds had a steer butchered at the same time as us. Both of the beefs were hanging at the same time. He told me that his ground meat was crappy, that he must have gotten my beef instead of his!! I said thanks George....


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## JD3430

I currently hay farm the place I'm looking at buying. I have the option of just leaving it in hay, instead of the cattle. 
If I decide to raise cattle, I'd immediately have to lose 100 round bales the property would otherwise produce. My average price per bale sold is $55. 
Was trying to get an idea if 30 head would produce significantly more income with all expenses considered.


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## BWfarms

If you only get 100 bales off that property, you are not going to sustain 35 head.


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## JD3430

BWfarms said:


> If you only get 100 bales off that property, you are not going to sustain 35 head.


You're misunderstanding me. I have 2 choices:
25-35 head of cattle, or continue producing 100 bales of ha on the property I want to buy.
I produce another 1,000 4x5 bales on other properties I hay farm, so I can easily produce enough hay for 35 head from other properties that I hay farm.


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## BWfarms

It's not the lack of feed that I'm saying you won't sustain, pastures will deteriorate rapidly when overstocked. Then you will have lost the value of the grass over time. You are likely going to have to feed 6 bales per head. According to your price per bale, you are going to potentially divert $17,000 in valued hay. That's including the 100 bales you sacrifice to run cattle.


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## azmike

$40-45 large to get some cattle, if cow calf you will need a bull too.

*Borrowed money is very bad for possibly volatile commoditys


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## JD3430

BWfarms said:


> It's not the lack of feed that I'm saying you won't sustain, pastures will deteriorate rapidly when overstocked. Then you will have lost the value of the grass over time. You are likely going to have to feed 6 bales per head. According to your price per bale, you are going to potentially divert $17,000 in valued hay. That's including the 100 bales you sacrifice to run cattle.


I don't know if I'm overstocking or not. I would have about 25 acres of grassland that produces about 100 round bales per year with no fertilizing. Is 30 head on 25 acres too much?


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## Bonfire

25 acres? I would say so. Have you looked into stocking rates for growing calves?


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## BWfarms

Yes especially without fertilizing, your numbers need to be 1 head for every 3 acres. Fertilized rates will vary but ideally 1.5 to 2 acres per head.


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## JD3430

BWfarms said:


> Yes especially without fertilizing, your numbers need to be 1 head for every 3 acres. Fertilized rates will vary but ideally 1.5 to 2 acres per head.


OK, good to know that. I figured 1 acre= 1 head.

so 25 acres = approx. 15 head? thats a lot less than I thought.

Keeping it in hay seems like a better/easier plan since im much more experienced in hay and I already hay the property.

Now what if I DID fertilize? About how many cattle could 25 acres of grassland support?


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## hog987

JD3430 said:


> OK, good to know that. I figured 1 acre= 1 head.
> so 25 acres = approx. 15 head? thats a lot less than I thought.
> Keeping it in hay seems like a better/easier plan since im much more experienced in hay and I already hay the property.
> 
> Now what if I DID fertilize? About how many cattle could 25 acres of grassland support?


Fertilizing pasture is funny. You might beable to run 50% more or you might not beable to run anymore but the animals you do have will gain faster.


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## deadmoose

Varies by locale.

Also what is your goal? Buy calves? When are you going to sell?

How much management are you planning on? How many paddocks? How long is your grazing season?


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## BWfarms

JD3430 said:


> OK, good to know that. I figured 1 acre= 1 head.
> so 25 acres = approx. 15 head? thats a lot less than I thought.
> Keeping it in hay seems like a better/easier plan since im much more experienced in hay and I already hay the property.
> 
> Now what if I DID fertilize? About how many cattle could 25 acres of grassland support?


Roughly 18-20 full size or 30 feeders (that started at 300#). Really depends on your weather (hay yields follow the same principle) and number of pastures you can rotate. So if you buy 30 at 300#, at the end of the year, you need to sell 10-12 and keep 18-20 for Farm to Table for end of year two.

Under my conditions I can maintain this but I would still have to feed 3-4 bales per head, again weather dependent.


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## Dill

Anyone else direct marketing in your area? Up here I think its the only way to go. Its a pain and its taken me years to build up a customer list. But now I have a backlog of customers waiting on the next animal. All halves and quarters. I'm on the low end of the price scale locally at 4.50lb hanging including butcher costs. Which I've found run about 90 cents a lb. I've been shooting for an 18month slaughter time. Yes I'm giving up weight but also making up feed costs and they are plenty tender. That's on beef breeds, my father has dairy beef and those are usually 20-24 months.

Now my brother has decided that his profit is selling weaned feeder calves directly. The auction house is a couple hours away in MA and I don't think its worth sending my cows down there.

Pasture also depends on how you work it. I rotationally graze mine and can get much higher stocking rates than just putting them out on the whole piece and having them eat what they want.

Big key to success is a good relationship with your butcher. Has to be USDA inspected here to resale, I think that's a federal rule now. I'm lucky enough to have a great butcher 20 mins from here. I book a few general appts in Jan and then if demand picks up get on a wait list in case someone cancels.


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## PaMike

On my ground the amount of cattle I can run directly relates to how much rain we get in June/July. A dry summer and those pastures get lean quick.

If the farm isn't already setup for cattle don't bother with cattle.

Remember someone ALWAYS needs to be available in case an animal goes down, gets out etc...


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## Hokelund Farm

Stock it on the conservative side, and then if its a good year you have grass stockpiled for winter or you can make some hay for the non grazing season.

Here you can do 1 cow/calf per acre during the grazing season - basing it off roughly a 1200lb cow and calving in spring. But the grass will be gone by mid Fall depending on rain. We are slowly getting better at rotational grazing which definitely makes a difference, not only in grass supply, but health as well. But that takes practice and time every day.

Smaller framed cows can do well on just grass and you could skip the additions of corn, although corn is cheap right now. Low cost producers are the $ makers. Smaller framed cows might not bring as much at the sale barn (if that is where they are sold), but you can stock more head and usually produce more #/acre.

I just brought home a couple of full blood lowlines that will finish out around 850# and some angus/lowline cross that should make it up to around 1100# by next fall. They are around 450# now. I'll direct sell 1/4s so I can set my own price.

If there is a feed lot around you buy cheap grade animals and put value on them with grass gains and then sell them in the fall. Check out cattle books by bud williams or walt davis. Lots of good resources for cattle operations.


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## carcajou

If you do decide to give this a go, consider buying your calves in 2 or 3 lots a few months apart from each other. It would be very risky to have 20 or more fats ready at the same time and have buyers back out at the last minute. Also it would be advisable to buy ten 300 lb ONE OWNER calves at once then 30 mixed owner calves. Mixing 2 or more owners calves together is risky health wise and small groups are easier to monitor and they seem to start better. Just considering your lack of experience with working cattle, more cattle experience, less chance of a train wreck.


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## endrow

Locally the advertised 100% grass fed. Do you think those cattle only eat grass that they can graze. Or are they also fed baled grass hay? Or could they eat alfalfa or Ryelage and still be classified as 100% grass-fed beef?


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## deadmoose

endrow said:


> Locally the advertised 100% grass fed. Do you think those cattle only eat grass that they can graze. Or are they also fed baled grass hay? Or could they eat alfalfa or Ryelage and still be classified as 100% grass-fed beef?


All of the above are fine.

Some extend it past what I would consider grassfed. Some do corn silage and all kinds of other feedstuffs and claim grassfed.


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## 8350HiTech

endrow said:


> Locally the advertised 100% grass fed. Do you think those cattle only eat grass that they can graze. Or are they also fed baled grass hay? Or could they eat alfalfa or Ryelage and still be classified as 100% grass-fed beef?


Grass equals anything that isn't grain or doesn't contain grain. Anything else they're cheating.


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## Vol

Grass fed....according to the USDA definition of claim and standard.

Regards, Mike

http://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/beef/grassfed


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## BWfarms

Guy by me advertises 100% grass fed beef. His website explains how he never fertilizes or limes (only what the cows produce), never sprays for weeds, they graze on native grasses, and cattle never get hay unless it snows.









⬆⬆ My look to the never feeds hay. Plus we are NC it barely snows here but it gets cold, poor cows. I've seen the grass it could literally sustain a broom factory (broomstraw).


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## swmnhay

My experience selling locker beef.Corn fed holestien beef.

There are plenty other that grow beef here so market is limited because plenty supply.

I sold whole,half or split side.Sold it hanging weight.Locker weighed it so no one could doubt my numbers.A couple did.Some are idiots and forget a lot gets boned out so if you have a 800 lb carcass you don't get 800 lbs of meat.You get about 60% of that = 480 lbs of pkg meat.

The customer gives cutting order to locker plant,so it is cut and packaged the way they wanted it.The customer pd the processing to the locker.If it was a new customer or someone that I didn't totally trust for the $ they have to pay for the beef at the locker when they pick it up.Only a couple of them.
There are different levels of USDA inspected locker plants,none close by here are so you can resell the packaged beef but you can sell it on the hoof basically and its labeled as theirs on the rail.All pkgs are stamped not for resale.
I had cattle ready yr around buying and selling every month which worked well,not everyone wants meat at the same time.I only sold 5-10% of my cattle for locker beef but you need a plan B for anything you can't get sold for locker beef.Grass fed is a Ninch market and you would get beat up pretty bad selling over run in sale barn especially for some other breeds that may work better on grass ,Dexter,etc


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## Fowllife

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. I think you need to think about how you can increase your profits with what you have available. If it were me I would looking into haying the first cutting and buy some light weight steers in the late summer to graze the regrowth. Adjust the number you buy depending on your regrowth and how late in the season you want to graze them. Still sell your junk hay for mushroom hay, but feed out what doesn't make the cut as horse hay. Either sell in the spring as yearlings, or finish out if you want. Depending on your hay quality you will probably need to be feeding some grain to maintain condition or increase your gain.

If you want to finish them out research your local market and see what people want, either grass fed or just good grain fed freezer beef. Talk to some area butchers and see if they will buy your beef on the hoof and sell it to their freezer beef customers.

I didn't real all of the replies, but It didn't seem like anyone really answered your question on how much you could make. Most of that would depend on how you market your end product and how much of a premium you could get. Buying a light weight feeder and backgrounding and selling as a yearling you could make $2-400 per head.You could also lose $200 per head if they come out of winter out of condition and the cattle feeders doesn't want them, or the market drops. Finishing them off for freezer beef is were the profit is IMO. But, they need to be well finished and good quality. Grass finishing is not easy and requires a lot of time and effort to do right.

Anything with cattle involves a lot of risk. You could spend $25k on a load of light weight steers and have cocci or something else come through and start to have some serious death loss. Losing calves can wipe out your profit in a hurry.

Cattle aren't something you should get into if you just looking at making money. There are easier ways to make a better ROI then livestock. You have to want to raise cattle, and just hope you make money.


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## JD3430

Thanks. Thats a good "reality check" I need to hear. Since we put in a mortgage application on the property a lot has changed. Also, I didnt want to bore HT with a lot of the details of the property. It also includes a very nice 24 stall wood barn, a 300x100 indoor riding arena and ~60 acres of land. We would have to build our own home and a substantial hay/tractor shed. The equine operation is currently being leased out to a very nice hard working woman who has kept the place fully rented for the last 2 years. She has offered to sign a lease with me for about $5,000+/- per month to continue using the property.
She currently uses about 15 acres to turn out 20-25 horses. They need a little more turn out space, which I would agree to give her in the agreement. So she would have about 20 acres. I would have the remaining ~40 acres to do as I please. About 25-30 acres is hay fields. The other 10-15 is semi to heavy wooded.
I currently hay about 25 of those 40 acres. I thought cattle might be the way to go, but I'm rethinking it. I might be better off cleaning up the fields and improving the quality of the existing hay stand. I thought of instead buying a good inline small baler and making hay good enough to sell to my horse gal. She was very open to the idea.
After crunching some numbers, its a no brainer that making hay would be more profitable in MY situation. Maybe we could fence in some of the semi-wooded and sloping areas for 5-10 head of cattle??? I will probably have my hands full with my own hay and the other 175 acres of other property.
Were very excited about the possibilities. Its all in the bank's hands now. We know it will be tough to qualify for all this. We dont know how much of the equestrian operation income the bank will allow us to use.


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## Fowllife

Congratulations on finding a place and good luck getting it locked in.

That is a little different setup then and changes things a little. I would fence in the whole thing if it isn't yet and go cow/calf with a low stocking rate. still make first cut and graze then rest, or just graze it all. You will need some place to spread all the horse manure anyways.

Regardless of were the horse barn gets their hay they will have some moldy/dusty hay they cant feed but cows can eat.


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## Hokelund Farm

Congrats - I just fenced off 20 acres that was seeded last spring. Plan is to graze it, but until I grow the herd I'll also be taking hay off part at least. Nice option to have.


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## JD3430

No need for congrats YET.
Bank still hasnt given us approval...

Trying to find a bank that will allow rental of equine facilities on a 2 yr written contract to be allowed as income against the mortgage.

Anyone know or have such a set up? Where your equestrian farm income is allowed as income to qualify for a mortgage?


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## Fowllife

I hate to say it, but have you talked to your local FSA office about financing? We just went bought some land and went through them. They were a PITA to deal with at times but their terms were great and they were pretty lax on some things.


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## Tim/South

Fowllife said:


> I hate to say it, but have you talked to your local FSA office about financing? We just went bought some land and went through them. They were a PITA to deal with at times but their terms were great and they were pretty lax on some things.


Pretty good suggestion. Since JD is fairly new to farming then he would also qualify for the New or Beginning farmer help.

The USDA is in near panic mode trying to ensure we do not become dependent in Ag imports.


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## JD3430

Great idea


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## Thorim

JD3430 Didn't realize you farmed on or near such disputed piece of land i.e. the twelve mile circle, the dispute goes back to 1681

and was last in front of the U.S. Supreme Court in 2007. There is company headquartered here in Michigan called Greenstone Farm Credit Service that

specializes in Agricultural financing they are like the 6th largest in the country. I have never used them but I have had several friend recommended them.

I personally don't know much about them one way or the other, but they may have an office in your area.


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## JD3430

Thorim,

Yes, I live directly on the 12 mile circle. I'm technically in PA, but can throw a rock into DE. My neighbors farm where we share cattle is in both states 
Its a great area. The DuPont family settled here in the 1700's and turned the area into basically their family's playground. We have all the giant DuPont estates in my little part of town. Now they are farms and we all fight for pieces of them 

Does anyone know how farm or ranch income is treated when attempting to qualify for a farm mortgage?

Like if someone offers to sign a contract for $x,000/month to rent an equestrian operation, will the bank look at 100% of that as income? Or only a percentage of it?


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## PaMike

Did you talk to any farm loan officers? Guys that actually write loans for farms might help you a lot more than just a typical mortgage broker. I had talked to a farm loan officer with Susquehanna. He said they work all the numbers for these dairy guys buying 40K an acre land to make sure they can swing it.


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## Thorim

Like if someone offers to sign a contract for $x,000/month to rent an equestrian operation, will the bank look at 100% of that as income? Or only a percentage of it?

I believe what they look at is the length of the contract and compare it to the length of the loan. Say you have a contract that runs two years with the horsey gal to run the stable and your loan runs twenty years they should figure the stable income for the first two of your farm loan, a longer stable contract should work in your favor but am not a realtor or a banker. Maybe someone with more knowledge can confirm or deny my thoughts


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## Trotwood2955

As others have said, you should be talking with a local bank or Farm Credit or anywhere that understands ag and regularly makes ag loans. You will be much better off and they will be more understanding of what you are looking at compared to a generic mortgage lender that is trying to make it fit into a nice little neat box with repayment coming from w-2 income.

As far as the contract with the horse person, anything you come up with now is purely hypothetical since you don't own the property yet - kind of a chicken vs the egg scenario. But a good ag lender should still put some weight on that potential income, at least if that isn't the only repayment source. If it was it would be heavily discounted since it would be purely projection based vs historical income fro you.

Another issue the lender has to consider is how strong is that tenant? Just because you have a signed contract doesn't mean much if that horse person is about ready to go bankrupt and won't be able to cover the lease. The bank may want some info about the operation. If so might not hurt to ask the tenant, never know until you ask what they might be willing to provide to help satisfy your lender. If nothing else showing some proof they are a steady business in operation for years would help vs if it was a startup operation.

On the length of the lease vs loan term, yes typically would like the two items to match. But probably won't in this case. But again a good lender that understands ag or commercial will help. Also, even if the current renter leaves you still own the property and facilities. You could always find another tenant. May not be overnight or for the exact same dollar amount but should be possible.

Don't know your situation but income diversity is key. Most lenders are going to like diversified income streams just because that helps spread out the risk. Sounds like you may have that some already, on top of the new income generated by the property itself.


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## swmnhay

As far as the bank useing the rental income they will look at others that they have had experience with.If they have been burnt by others they won't collateralize it as high.

When I expanded my hay operation and needed to expand my operating line the bank gave 0 collateral for the hay to be produced because of the previous renter burnt them.Hay is mostly sold privately vs grain sold at elevators which will put the banks name on the check also.So the previous renter filed bankruptcy and the hay disappeared.So they no likey hay guys,lol.

So what I am saying is that if your tenant fails to pay you who will pay the bank?It's not a liquid asset that the bank can just take to cover the debt,although the property is.

Can you get another renter if the first one quits?Another use for the barn? A plan B?


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## hillside hay

I hope the place works out for you. Custom beef would return the best in your case in my opinion. A few head prr year enough to handle your rained on weedy stuff and hopefully pay the taxes. Seems to be the jist of most of the replies and I guess my opinion follows suit. Raising cattle is rewarding work hopefully you can profit some with it as well.


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## JD3430

Lots of great questions and suggestions. The realtor selling the land is very experienced in selling these types of farms & estates. He is using a bank that typically does these types of loans and keeps them in their bank portfolio. 
The realtor also knows the horse gal from way back in time. He also agrees she's solid, married, hard worker, knows the horse biz. She also has a "following" of loyal stall renting customers. In fact, she's already told me she can fill 30 stalls (current stable has 24). I have been cutting hay off the property for 3 years and I've watched her- she's there everyday, sleeves rolled up and working stalls or teaching riding. 
The realtor also told me that if she doesn't work out, I could get rid of her after lease is up and he could bring in another horse gal who will pay considerably MORE to rent from me. So if the current one doesn't work out, he said he'd put me in touch with another that would love to take her place and pay higher rent. Realtor is himself a horse farm owner. Seems very knowledgeable.
The property would also produce about 150 round bales per year. That's worth another $1,000/mo.
The stable is fantastic and also features 2 "offices" 2 1/2 baths and 2 16x20 conference type rooms very accessible to the parking lot. I envisioned giving horse gal one office and Conf room to her with rent and actually renting out the other other office and cof room to a small businessman (like a equine related business or a RE appraiser, or other small timer.) they could have their own office, powder room and Conf room and parking. 
The enclosed arena is massive and in good shape. All steel structure. 300x100. Lighted. Has seperate viewing area for judging or parents. 
Endless possibilities


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## PaMike

Keep the existing tenant. Steady money is better than the promise of more money. I think you could have a VERY good thing going if you can get the property bought. There is money in horses/horse boarding, but there is also hassle and headache. Having someone else manage that end of the business is the way to go.


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## JD3430

Yeah Im not touching it. I'll do the fences, mow the fields, maintain buildings.
Cant imagine insurance, liability etc. Although we do have those "you assume the risk....." signs I see on all equine facilities.


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## Lewis Ranch

If all else fails with the horse lady I think you would have one hell of a hay/equipment barn!


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## Thorim

Michigan has gotten a lot of thing wrong but this one they got right: http://equine.uslegal.com/equine-activity-law/michigan-equine-activity-law/

Wordy as laws are but is pretty clear


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## Dill

JD3430 said:


> Yeah Im not touching it. I'll do the fences, mow the fields, maintain buildings.
> Cant imagine insurance, liability etc. Although we do have those "you assume the risk....." signs I see on all equine facilities.


Well if you are renting her the facility you better make sure she has insurance.


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## JD3430

Dill said:


> Well if you are renting her the facility you better make sure she has insurance.


We both will have it. Im getting way ahead of myself, but if this happens, the farm is going LLC or corp if Im going to have a bunch of horseback riders on it.


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## PaMike

Good thinking. LLC or Corp also allows you to potentially allow your kids to buy in (or gift) portions of the LLC(real estate) to them...something to think about in the long term...



JD3430 said:


> We both will have it. Im getting way ahead of myself, but if this happens, the farm is going LLC or corp if Im going to have a bunch of horseback riders on it.


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## JD3430

My guess is they wont allow the percentage of farm income my wife and I need to make it happen.
Then theres a myriad of other obstacles: the land is mostly conservation easement and we dont know where they will allow the house to be built. We think they will "OK" our choice. Guy who tried to buy before us walked from deal-super rich investor/equestrain type. He wanted to have like 20 horse shows/year at the farm. Was not going to live there, but was going to use it as an equestrian business only. Township owns the conservation easement and gets to "guide" the future owners decisions on how to use property. The neighbors went to zoning hearings and bitched about the horse shows (too many cars, noise, etc).
The horse gal wanted them too because she would share in the profits. Township came back with a compromise of like 6 horse shows. No lighted parking areas, no activity after dark.
Im learning as much as I can before hand.


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## carcajou

I not sure how you can handle all the conditions placed on this piece of ground. I would not even consider it, but up here we pretty much do as we want if we stay out of the water courses. You never said what this may set you back but i'm guessing you could buy a good sized farm in a less populated area for less $$$.


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## JD3430

carcajou said:


> I not sure how you can handle all the conditions placed on this piece of ground. I would not even consider it, but up here we pretty much do as we want if we stay out of the water courses. You never said what this may set you back but i'm guessing you could buy a good sized farm in a less populated area for less $$$.


Yes, I can see how you'd see it that way, but there's little other options. All "tillage" farmers have succumbed to conservation easements to survive high taxes. Theres almost no family farms left.
And no, I couldnt possibly buy a good sized farm in another immediate area- I'd have to rip my kids out of their school and my wife too far from her job. I want to keep them happy, its not that important to me. Wife has great job, her own career and bennys to go with it. We cant lose them.

Basically, the township wants some say in what you do with the farming operation in a zoning sense. You cant pave 10 acres and put up a lighted parking lot. You can only have a limited amount of horse shows, etc. This is to keep neighbors from watching their property values suffer. I'm probably exagerating the township involvement. Theyre worried someones going to come in and bitch the place up, start a big pig farm or some other ugly abortion. The property goes back to William Penn and its really a piece of American history.
Its not all bad- in return, you get low taxes. Taxes here....well, I wont say-you wouldn't believe me.
I don't like it either, but there's not much choice other than uprooting and moving 50+miles west. We dont want to do anything on the crazy side anyway, so it should even be an issue.


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## FCF

Know the feeling. Seems like the farther east on the eastern seaboard you go the more regulations there are on farmers. I know what the taxes were in MD, people heere can't believe they were anywhere close to what we tell them. In MD taxes were way higher than insurance on our equine operation and in KY insurance is higher than taxes without any equine operation. Think you would have to move more than 50+ miles west to get out of that situation, add at least one zero to it.


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## mlappin

Thorim said:


> Michigan has gotten a lot of thing wrong but this one they got right: http://equine.uslegal.com/equine-activity-law/michigan-equine-activity-law/
> 
> Wordy as laws are but is pretty clear


Indiana pretty much the same thing, root of the matter is a horse is a thousand pounds of panic and stupid waiting to happen, by being around or riding said horse you agree that what your doing can be hazardous and accept all risk involved.


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## Bonfire

JD3430 said:


> Yes, I can see how you'd see it that way, but there's little other options. All "tillage" farmers have succumbed to conservation easements to survive high taxes. Theres almost no family farms left.And no, I couldnt possibly buy a good sized farm in another immediate area- I'd have to rip my kids out of their school and my wife too far from her job. I want to keep them happy, its not that important to me. Wife has great job, her own career and bennys to go with it. We cant lose them.Basically, the township wants some say in what you do with the farming operation in a zoning sense. You cant pave 10 acres and put up a lighted parking lot. You can only have a limited amount of horse shows, etc. This is to keep neighbors from watching their property values suffer. I'm probably exagerating the township involvement. Theyre worried someones going to come in and bitch the place up, start a big pig farm or some other ugly abortion. The property goes back to William Penn and its really a piece of American history.Its not all bad- in return, you get low taxes. Taxes here....well, I wont say-you wouldn't believe me.I don't like it either, but there's not much choice other than uprooting and moving 50+miles west. We dont want to do anything on the crazy side anyway, so it should even be an issue.


If your going to start throwing rocks at my livelihood, I'm going through start throwing them back. If you want to equate a pig farm to something bitched up or an abortion I would invited you to come take a look. No, scratch that. I don't want to see your dumb ass. You can't even determine what income means. Shouldn't you be more concerned about the length of that type of contract and its ability to pay towards a loan than worrying wether a lender would? They might even require you to get life insurance to cover your loan with them being the beneficiary. Your $2000/mo from the horsey girl does not come close to satisfiying the monthly payment on this farm. This pig farm generates more money per acre utilized than your DuPont village farm ever could. And I save 10's of thousands of dollars every year in fertilizer cost because of the effluent utilization not to mention the water, (in addition to N,P,K....do you know what that means?) in drought years.

You say we're all farmers and that may be but I farm full time. I take offense when you start talking shit about a pig farm when only a few days ago you were asking the fine folks here if you could raise 25-30 "cattle" on what turns out to be 25 acres of pasture. You don't know squat about livestock production and you want to throw a pig farm under the bus. Par for the course I guess. Make sure those 5 head of "cattle" you help your neighbor feed have enough to eat through the winter. BTW, in the cow business, we refer to them as cows or calves. If you tell me you have 50 cows I know you have a cow/calf operation. If you have 50 calves on grass I know you have a stocker operation. They're managed a little differently. So go buy your cattle (term used correctly) and hay farm and make sure you don't have pork chop on your breath when you sign the closing papers.


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## Vol

Bonfire is being modest about his type of operation and involvement......take a look.






Regards, Mike


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## azmike

Cow/calf = permanent herd, long term investment

stocker = player in the commodities market


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## JD3430

Bonfire
I said the TOWNSHIP is worried someone will come in and start a pig farm and reduce land values.
NOT ME. I went to the township meeting and that's what THEY said. NOT ME.

"Basically, the *township* wants some say in what you do with the farming operation in a zoning sense. You cant pave 10 acres and put up a lighted parking lot. You can only have a limited amount of horse shows, etc. This is to keep neighbors from watching their property values suffer. I'm probably exagerating the township involvement. * They're worried someones going to come in and bitch the place up, start a big pig farm *.

I don't know who pissed in your Cheerios this morning, but your tone is totally unnecessary and misdirected.
And while you may be right that I don't know as much as an experienced cattleman about raising COWS, I figured that's what this website was partially for, to ask questions and LEARN from experts in the field, not be belligerent and I'll tempered to others who only seek information.
I won't ask any more questions so I don't hurt anyone's feelings anymore, I'll just join the ranks of sniping commentary and not help because I'm offended that I'm a "northerner" or I'm "pro-life" or I'm from the "east coast" where "all the liberals live" or on edit a "carpetbagger". I'm no liberal and no, I don't get offended when folks say that. Maybe now I should. Can't tell y'all how many times I've turned the other cheek when I heard that shit.
And someone started a topic months ago about why no new farmers......

Have a great day


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## somedevildawg

Not to derail, but that nedap system is fantastic......never seen a high tech management system like that, seems very expensive tho


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## swmnhay

JD3430 said:


> Theyre worried someones going to come in and bitch the place up, start a big pig farm or some other ugly abortion.


Hmmm looks to me like you compared a pig farm to "some other ugly abortion"


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## JD3430

swmnhay said:


> Hmmm looks to me like you compared a pig farm to "some other ugly abortion"


That was not my intention. If he or others take it that way, I guess it's understandable and I apologize.
I should have put quotation marks around it. I don't think pig farms are ugly, but they do.

I swear that I will always call the COWS instead of "cattle" to not offend. Shall I change the thread heading to "cow", too? 
Sheesh.


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## somedevildawg

JD you ain't no northerner, you're a damned Yankee! (Just messin with ya JD) And pro-life is nothing to scoff at.....east coast liberals? Ya know I guess you're right.....Philadelphia, DC, New York......damn it, the west coast had a lock on liberal ideals in the past, guess if ya keep handing out the money more will fall.......

If said property is in the city limits then there are probably plenty of restrictions you don't even know about until they make up some that apply.....


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## PaMike

I really dont want to put myself in the middle of anything here, but I can say that JD lives in a very "unique" area that many if not most on this site would struggle to comprehend the oddities of it.

Wealthy intelligent people living in a somewhat rural community that live in this area because they dont want to live in the nearby city. These people want "rural" without the downside of rural living. They want open space but no manure smell, no feedtrucks coming down the road etc etc. If someone were even to ATTEMPT the idea of a concentrated animal feeding operations whether it be cattle, pigs,sheep, etc the public would scream like you wouldnt believe...

The only reason the horses do well in this area is cause every rich kids daughter wants a pony...

JD worded things a little poorly, but I completely understood what he was trying to say.

Lets put this one behind us and move on...


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## FCF

Well stated PaMike! I also know the area and agree most on this site would struggle to comprehend what a "farm" means in that area. One of the interestested parties for our farm in MD wanted to change it from a horse boarding and show facility to a dog training and kennel operation. That idea was shot down buy county regulations and neighbors, never mind that a hunt club had their kennel on an ajoining piece of land. Horses and dogs, fine; just dogs, mans best friend, not so fine.


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## JD3430

Thanks, Mike. I did word it poorly. Should have used quotation marks and made sure to point out I didn't dislike pig farms, but I would never say anything here that I wouldn't say to someone's FACE.

You're right about this area. It's even worse than the way Europe has gotten: new rich people to the area give you the finger when I'm towing my manure spreader down the road, or pulling onto a road too slowly with 20 round bales on my trailer. Unimaginable wealth (not me, so don't be hatin') and little tolerance for anything that doesn't look perfect in their eyes. Cops demand everything has lights, SMV emblems. I will say the old money around here is very kind and appreciative-not so much their kids, though.
Township surprised me when they said that when land once farmed becomes un-farmed and vacant for a few years that you had to get permission to put it back in farming! Crazy, huh?

Dog kennels?!? Are you crazy? No way around here....
Crap, now I've offended all dog kennel owners....


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## carcajou

azmike said:


> Cow/calf = permanent herd, long term investment
> 
> stocker = player in the commodities market


Player? We run yearlings and prefer to think of our operation as a link in the supply chain. Cow/calf, yearlings, feedlots all have a long term investment around here, all just doing what we do best.


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## azmike

Sir, I meant "player" as one who would need to monitor market conditions as per net gains or losses as well as the weight of the stockers for the short terms as in under 900 pounds.

The use of "player" would be closer to stocks, bonds or commodity traders.

No disrespect intended. I feel I am a "link" in the supply chain as well. This has gotten kinda touchy for my taste.


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## Vol

Since it is the time of Thanks, I think that we should all be grateful that the Euro like behavior that has been mentioned is not afflicting most of the rest of the country and at this time is primarily confined to the Northeast....but most likely there are spots elsewhere that could be similar that we are not aware of as far as farm/ag type land is considered. I hope that this is not another sign of things to come....but rather a isolated local thing. I personally would not want to deal with like situations on a daily basis and feel sorry for those that are compelled to do so. I am thankful for the beauty of my region and the grounded people that live here....for the most part.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

Its a sign of things to come. I try to vote for the less restrictive traditional types, but elections have consequences.
Look at what is changed in my area, California and lots of the areas outside metropolitan areas.
City people destroy the city enviroment they live in with their liberal policies, then once destroyed, decide to move into areas outside the city, like mine for a new start.
Only problem is, they want to impose their liberal agendas on us and change us "hicks" into believing in their liberal methods of property "management". They run for local zoning board positions and while people like me are hard at work, they get elected and start changing into "liberal utopia", this time in the rural areas outside the city where they came from.
Same will happen in the south, eventually. Your cities are growing rapidly and with that will come a similar process. Your city types from Nashville, Charlotte, etc. will destroy the cities, then move to the rural areas and get elected.
25 years ago, we didnt have any of these problems. All our counties were "red". Now only my county is barely red, rest are blue.

Simple fact is, we're just outnumbered up here, not by a lot, but by enough to lose these critical, local elections. What I accept as normal, they wont allow.
But dont lose any sleep feeling sorry for ME. I'm fine, I'm proud of myself and my accomplishments, really like it here and wouldn't want to live anywhere else.
we will get this area back from the liberals, someday.


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## FCF

Know that situation too, City people moving to the "country" then want all the "city" conveniences with the inherent problems. You would be surprised at the looks I got when telling them if they wanted such and such, why didn't you stay in the city. It's a two way street - You can't take the country out of a country boy and you can't take the city out of a city person, unless they WANT TO CHANGE. Moving doesn't make that happen. Been in KY 7 years and still say I am the new kid on the block, what can I do to help.


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## Vol

FCF said:


> Been in KY 7 years and still say I am the new kid on the block, what can I do to help.


It's a different deal here in the South....probably take you 20 years to earn your areas trust and affection.....that is why I am not highly concerned about what is going on in the Northeast....could happen here.....but I am skeptical. Politics are different here too, and it's not something that can be waded into just because you have a pocket full of money. If this was not true, the "carpetbaggers" would have stop offs in the Southeast along I-95 going to Florida.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430

Well, I don't have pockets full of money and I'm no stinkin' carpetbagger either, so I wouldn't know.


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## Thorim

Sadly most city folks don't have a clue where their food comes from weather its meat or vegetables and fruits, ask them and most will say it comes from the "grocery store" having little or new clue as to where the grocery store gets their products from. What is even sadder is the city folks who move to the country who still don't have a clue.. As Benjamin Franklin once said "if we do not hang together surely we will each hang separately" I believe JD 3430 is right, isn't this site for sharing our knowledge to help each to be better at the job we love, weather we do it full time or part time doesn't matter, we all are here because we share common passions, farming, and a love of the land, love of family, love of country, we might not agree on what color tractor, or piece of equipment is best, but that's what makes this site so great the thing we do have in common but also the differences of opinions and the ability to share those opinions with out stepping on someones toes or goring someones else's ox. In the short time I have been here I have gained a lot of knowledge and insight from all of you here that I would never have gotten any where else. I don't agree with all that is said here but I agree with a lot of it, This site to me is about a life time of experiences that's what all of you bring here and by sharing it with each other we all benefit in the long run. Our differences is what makes this world such an amazing wonderful place how dull it would be if we were all the same. Accept that we may agree to disagree on some things ,be thankful for what we do agree upon. Sorry for the long rant thanks for reading it if you did lol


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## FCF

It's a different deal here in the South....probably take you 20 years to earn your areas trust and affection.....

Can't get the quote to work..... Any way I am friends with an ex-mayor of Campbellsville, He is/was an "outsider" from the area about 25 years ago, but still from KY. He said basically the same thing, figure it takes a generation for one to be considered somewhat of a "local". Youngin's need to grow up around you and not readily know you as an "outsider". Still no regrets about moving here. I think by showing I desire to fit in instead of change everything has helped ease the process.


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## JD3430

FCF said:


> It's a different deal here in the South....probably take you 20 years to earn your areas trust and affection.....
> 
> Can't get the quote to work..... Any way I am friends with an ex-mayor of Campbellsville, He is/was an "outsider" from the area about 25 years ago, but still from KY. He said basically the same thing, figure it takes a generation for one to be considered somewhat of a "local". Youngin's need to grow up around you and not readily know you as an "outsider". Still no regrets about moving here. I think by showing I desire to fit in instead of change everything has helped ease the process.


Thats really sad. We accept people around here without categorizing them too much, but theres a degree of skepticism.
I think youd make a great neighbor-You're smart by "fitting in" as best you can. Moving into an area and stirring up sh*t never seems to go over well.
A woman recently relocated here from Charlotte and pressured everyone to participate in fund raisers and spent all our schools PTO money on a long fancy walking trail, then promptly moved to Chigcago, but left us broke for her walking trail.


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## FCF

Don't feel sad for me. In some ways it's kinda funny. Have gone into some of the local restaurants and have the sweet young thing ask "Where you from?" tell her "C'ville" and she says uh-uh. Have had this happen more than once in the past year, just don't have the accent and never will. Some of the Army Corps of Engineers at the local flood control lake say they can tell what part of KY your from by your accent. Sure makes life interesting. I know this is way off the OP "Cattle guys What can expect?"


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## Vol

FCF said:


> I think by showing I desire to fit in instead of change everything has helped ease the process.


That will definitely go a long way.....and maybe something in particular will turn it all in your favor one day....I hope so FCF....you undoubtedly would be a asset to any community.

Regards, Mike


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## FCF

Thanks for the kind words guys!


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## Bonfire

somedevildawg said:


> Not to derail, but that nedap system is fantastic......never seen a high tech management system like that, seems very expensive tho


We received a tractor trailer load of gilts (maiden females, sorry) Friday am. If'n your not too busy over the next eight weeks, your more than welcome to come help train them to go into those stations to eat. I'll have all the RFID tags in by Tuesday pm.

For the record, Vol's link is not my farm. Same equipment just arranged a little differently.


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## somedevildawg

Lol....I bet the training process is "hands on" but I would imagine as smart as pigs are, they get it purty quick. Some of my fondest memories of me and my father was castrating time for the pigs.....our job was to chase em and catch em....purty fun because dad didn't ever want us chasing them pigs


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## Bonfire

somedevildawg said:


> Lol....I bet the training process is "hands on" but I would imagine as smart as pigs are, they get it purty quick. Some of my fondest memories of me and my father was castrating time for the pigs.....our job was to chase em and catch em....purty fun because dad didn't ever want us chasing them pigs


Yea, it's hands on but after a couple days of training they start to catch on. Out of that load, there'll be a handful that will be skittish about the process. The computer starts feeding the gestating herd at 3:00 pm. By 3:15, there's a line 3-4 deep wanting to get in. We stopped castrating here 4-5 months ago. Animal welfare issue.


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## somedevildawg

Bonfire said:


> Yea, it's hands on but after a couple days of training they start to catch on. Out of that load, there'll be a handful that will be skittish about the process. The computer starts feeding the gestating herd at 3:00 pm. By 3:15, there's a line 3-4 deep wanting to get in. We stopped castrating here 4-5 months ago. Animal welfare issue.


From first hand experience, they didn't seem to really enjoy the process as much as we did......lol

We were castrating some bulls a few months ago and a feller (Mexican) was helping and he would fill a bucket with them.....said they was good eatn, I'll take his word for it......


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## PaMike

Bonfire said:


> We received a tractor trailer load of gilts (maiden females, sorry) Friday am. If'n your not too busy over the next eight weeks, your more than welcome to come help train them to go into those stations to eat. I'll have all the RFID tags in by Tuesday pm.
> 
> For the record, Vol's link is not my farm. Same equipment just arranged a little differently.


I am no pig farmer.... so what are you doing? Breeding and selling the piglets? Around here we call that a farrowing barn..


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## Bonfire

PaMike said:


> I am no pig farmer.... so what are you doing? Breeding and selling the piglets? Around here we call that a farrowing barn..


Yea it's a farrowing operation. Here we call it a farrow to wean. We wean at about 22 days of age. Pigs go on a truck and sows go to be rebred.


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## carcajou

Bonfire said:


> Yea it's a farrowing operation. Here we call it a farrow to wean. We wean at about 22 days of age. Pigs go on a truck and sows go to be rebred.


What weaning weight are you averaging?


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## Bonfire

carcajou said:


> What weaning weight are you averaging?


14.5-15.0 per week. 16 is where I want to be. There's incentive in weight.


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## carcajou

Bonfire that's really impressive.


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## Thorim

Bonfire said:


> We received a tractor trailer load of gilts (maiden females, sorry) Friday am. If'n your not too busy over the next eight weeks, your more than welcome to come help train them to go into those stations to eat. I'll have all the RFID tags in by Tuesday pm.
> 
> For the record, Vol's link is not my farm. Same equipment just arranged a little differently.


How many of the ladies are there in a tractor trailer load?


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## swmnhay

somedevildawg said:


> From first hand experience, they didn't seem to really enjoy the process as much as we did......lol
> We were castrating some bulls a few months ago and a feller (Mexican) was helping and he would fill a bucket with them.....said they was good eatn, I'll take his word for it......


You've never had Rocky Mountain Oysters?


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## Tim/South

swmnhay said:


> You've never had Rocky Mountain Oysters?


I saw them on display at a grocery store in Texas.

My son and I cut calves for other farms in our community. A relative (in-law) always asks us to save the nads for him. I personally prefer other cuts.

About fitting in.

It takes a while for a community to accept a person who is different from them. Pretty much everyone locally is tolerated. Acceptance needs to be earned. Sweat stains go a long way in adding legitimacy to a person's opinion around here.


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## azmike

I was shooting a couple rounds of trap Saturday. Some putz townie was blah blahing about the sorry state of roads in the southern part of the county. I told him it would be fine if it was all still beautiful grass land for cows that don't complain! Maybe he forgot something in boston he needed to go back for...


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## Bonfire

Thorim said:


> How many of the ladies are there in a tractor trailer load?


It varies depending on your needs but 120-150.


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## Bonfire

somedevildawg said:


> From first hand experience, they didn't seem to really enjoy the process as much as we did......lol
> 
> We were castrating some bulls a few months ago and a feller (Mexican) was helping and he would fill a bucket with them.....said they was good eatn, I'll take his word for it......


We worked/weaned calves that Tuesday. The hired man took all the nuts home. You wanna have a good time, go to a calf fry with a beer truck parked in the middle.


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## Fowllife

Bonfire said:


> Yea, it's hands on but after a couple days of training they start to catch on. Out of that load, there'll be a handful that will be skittish about the process. The computer starts feeding the gestating herd at 3:00 pm. By 3:15, there's a line 3-4 deep wanting to get in. We stopped castrating here 4-5 months ago. Animal welfare issue.


So, not to derail this train wreck any further, but what's the deal with castrating? Do you push it off on the nursery? Or are they leaving them "uncut"? I can't imagine waiting until 3-4 weeks to cut. We are MUCH smaller scale, but I like to cut everything at 1 week, 2 weeks tops.


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## Bonfire

Fowllife said:


> So, not to derail this train wreck any further, but what's the deal with castrating? Do you push it off on the nursery? Or are they leaving them "uncut"? I can't imagine waiting until 3-4 weeks to cut. We are MUCH smaller scale, but I like to cut everything at 1 week, 2 weeks tops.


Train wreck. LOL. We used to castrate at 2 days. Now boars are left intact all the way to the plant. I don't know all the details but the growing pigs receive two shots of Improvest some weeks apart in the finishing barn. It's an immunized castration.


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## swmnhay

Never heard of Improvest so googled it.Heck is it going to make you sterile if you eat the meat?They don't want you to cut them but you can use drugs on them.

https://www.asi.k-state.edu/doc/youth/Improvest_Information.pdf


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## Vol

Not a permanent castration.....sounds as if the only real goal is to temporarily eliminate "Boar Taint". I may have had that "Boar Taint" when I was in my twenties.... .

Regards, Mike


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## Bonfire

swmnhay said:


> Never heard of Improvest so googled it.Heck is it going to make you sterile if you eat the meat?They don't want you to cut them but you can use drugs on them.
> https://www.asi.k-state.edu/doc/youth/Improvest_Information.pdf


I asked. The plant hasn't seen any problems so far. I think the Wal Marts of the world are driving it. But yea, put away the knife for a 15 second castration for a needle...twice. Saves me a little labor.


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## Fowllife

Bonfire said:


> Train wreck. LOL. We used to castrate at 2 days. Now boars are left intact all the way to the plant. I don't know all the details but the growing pigs receive two shots of Improvest some weeks apart in the finishing barn. It's an immunized castration.


Thanks for the explanation, I had not heard of that. It is not the most pleasant job on the farm, but I think I will stick with the knife. It's not a big deal only doing a couple litters at a time. I'm sure it's a lot easier on your end running a sow barn.


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