# Rebuilding soil on an old pasture?



## kirkmcquest (Sep 6, 2014)

Hi guys. I have an old piece of pasture that was used by the previous owner for keeping his beef cattle in. It's something like 12 acres. Soil is described on survey as a 'light clay'. Well it looks like he really over stocked it and never attempted to amend or repair that patch. There are huge ruts and mounds from when it was wet and those cattle stomped all-round in it. Ther doesn't appear to be any top soil just some sparse weedy growth and lots of bald clay.

I was thinking maybe I could manure, disk, then plant some buckwheat or something that might help. I feel that if i could get almost anything to grow there it would be on the road to recovery. Any ideas/advice/suggestions?


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Soil test first. The buckwheat would be a good idea for a natural compaction breaker.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

I agree soil test first. Post results and we can go from there. Forage radishes are big in this area for compaction issues.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Soil test and add lime and fertilize accordingly. I would bet you have some serious compaction so pulling a subsoiler would be a good idea to help break it up. Work the ground up to where it is acceptably smooth. Plant something like winter rye or wheat to cover the ground over the winter.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

Now hold on. If it was me the first thing I would do is get my manual post hole auger and dig a few holes. Dig down about 2 feet. Watch what you pull out. Thid will let you know how much if any top soil you have. It will let you know if you have a hardpan or two. It will let you know the texture of the soil. Let you know how far down the hard pans are. Can also see how far down the roots have been. See what kind of critters like worms you can dig out. Soil test can only tell you so much. Its good to know the profile of the soil for yourself.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

hog987 said:


> Now hold on. If it was me the first thing I would do is get my manual post hole auger and dig a few holes. Dig down about 2 feet. Watch what you pull out. Thid will let you know how much if any top soil you have. It will let you know if you have a hardpan or two. It will let you know the texture of the soil. Let you know how far down the hard pans are. Can also see how far down the roots have been. See what kind of critters like worms you can dig out. Soil test can only tell you so much. Its good to know the profile of the soil for yourself.


Great idea, hog. You certainly need to know the physical issues in addition to the chemical ones.


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Using clover would be a good soil builder too helps get other grasses growing


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## girl2lucky (May 17, 2015)

I agree that seeing what the soil is now is a good place to start. Getting it reasonably flat too. I recently had a very long conversation with a farmer in mid or western Ma. He has four hundred acres and mainly grows hays of all types. We got around to fertilizing. He told me "don't laugh" said he was diluting raw milk with water and adding some molasses. I am still looking for the article to read it in more detail for my own use here. Appears that raw milk has all the amino acids that the mircrobes and what not that contribute to soil health need. The molassas is for the sugar. Many insects can not motabolize sugar and basicly explode. I really like that idea. Raw milk is cheap and it wont harm anything. I have a horse that can not tollerate chemical fertilizers used in the hay production. Even after it has sat for a year it still gives him trouble. So even if other animals aren't reacting to the chemical fertilizers how good can this be for them? And then you eat that beef animal that has digested all that garbage. This farmer told me not only was the field he tested more productive but, he also got a third cutting. He made his first cut in mid may of last year. He was cutting his second cut when all others were just getting to thier first. I think it is worth a try. What have you got with out the soil's health? Lots of weeds!!


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## snowball (Feb 7, 2015)

Soil test is a must... if it;s a clay soil .. I would NOT and I mean NOT ever think about tillage on it.. if nothing is growing now but a few weeds you have some what of a challenge in front of you. But it can be fixed .. I'am quit sure the pH is way out of whack... cover crop that break up soil compaction is a great idea.. tillage BAD cover , buckwheat, turnips ,radishes, all work well.. Alot of member here with alot of good ideas ... JMO but when you till clay soils you make more problems than you and mother nature can ever fix in your life time truss me I know from mistakes.. good luck and listen to the advice here on haytalk.. you will be fine and have a lush green piece of ground .


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

snowball said:


> Soil test is a must... if it;s a clay soil .. I would NOT and I mean NOT ever think about tillage on it.. if nothing is growing now but a few weeds you have so what of a challenge in front of you. But it can be fixed .. I'am quit sure the pH is way out of whack... cover crop that break up soil compaction is a great idea.. tillage BAD cover , buckwheat, turnips ,radishes, all work well.. Alot of member here with alot of good ideas ... JMO but when you till clay soils you make more problems than you and mother nature can ever fix in your life time truss me I know from mistakes.. good luck and listen to the advice here on haytalk.. you will be fine and have a lush green piece of ground .


Key to farming clay is patience


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

Some wet clay soils can be ruined for up to twenty years if they are plowed by humans or stomped on by animals. Never try and work clay soils if they are wet and you can avoid creating this problem. I would dig down with a tractor bucket or back hoe (even better) and look at the profile for layering. This may include a hard pan or sandy zone, etc. The soil may benefit by deep mold board plowing, ripping or just a PH adjustment. Getting the PH to neutral -7- will give the earthworms and other soil building organisms the best chance to thrive.

The problem with some clays is that the particles are very fine and flat, like sheets of paper. In time, microbes will occupy space between these sheets, and they help aerate the soil, so that roots and worms can grow. If the soil gets wet and then compacted by a tractor tire, plow or even worst, the hooves of heavy animals, the compression will press these "sheets" together and then the particles will bind into a hardened mass. This compression forces air out of the soil, and plants, worms and some microbes need air or they die. There are documented cases of clay being worked when too wet and the result was an un-farmable mess that took 20 years to recover.

I would check with your local county agent or university and have them come out and bring some big time agronomist along. They can then advise you best as they most likely have experience with your local soils.


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

girl2lucky said:


> I have a horse that can not tollerate chemical fertilizers used in the hay production. Even after it has sat for a year it still gives him trouble. So even if other animals aren't reacting to the chemical fertilizers how good can this be for them? And then you eat that beef animal that has digested all that garbage. This farmer told me not only was the field he tested more productive but, he also got a third cutting. He made his first cut in mid may of last year. He was cutting his second cut when all others were just getting to thier first. I think it is worth a try. What have you got with out the soil's health? Lots of weeds!!


How did you determine that the horse reacts to chemical fertilizer? .

Back in march I went to a fertilizer conference. After it was over I was talking to a guy. He sprayed some foliar fertilizer onto his crop beside a pasture along a fence line. There was some spray drift across the fence into the pasture. The next day the cattle in the pasture ate the grass where the spray drift happened right to the ground. They also reached through the fence as far as they could. He was showing me pictures of all this. A wavy line right along side the fence where there was nothing left and tall grass just inches away. If chemical fertilizer is not so good for the cattle why did they do this?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

girl2lucky said:


> This farmer told me not only was the field he tested more productive but, he also got a third cutting. He made his first cut in mid may of last year. He was cutting his second cut when all others were just getting to thier first. I think it is worth a try. What have you got with out the soil's health? Lots of weeds!!


You try the molasses and milk and come back and report how much yield you had compared to the previous year.....and let us know about your weeds too.

I too am curious about your horses reaction to chemical fertilizer....what were the symptoms of chemical fertilizer toxicity and who made the diagnosis for you.....or did you diagnose it yourself?

Regards, Mike


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## Hokelund Farm (Feb 4, 2014)

Pets like drinking antifreeze, doesn't mean its good for them


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hokelund Farm said:


> Pets like drinking antifreeze, doesn't mean its good for them


No doubt about that Hokeland....but everyone knows antifreeze has horrible consequences. I have owned hundreds of horses( had over 100 broodmares of my own at one time) and I never lost-sickened a horse from fertilizing my pastures or my hayfields. I am sure somewhere it could happen. I just have never heard anyone before state that their horse has intolerance to legitimately fertilized fields or hay. I would like to know more factual information if that is the case.

.....and when someone starts the molasses and milk fertilizing spiel.....well it just makes me very skeptical of what they are posting.

Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Vol said:


> No doubt about that Hokeland....but everyone knows antifreeze has horrible consequences. I have owned hundreds of horses( had over 100 broodmares of my own at one time) and I never lost-sickened a horse from fertilizing my pastures or my hayfields. I am sure somewhere it could happen. I just have never heard anyone before state that their horse has intolerance to legitimately fertilized fields or hay. I would like to know more factual information if that is the case.
> .....and when someone starts the molasses and milk fertilizing spiel.....well it just makes me very skeptical of what they are posting.
> Regards, Mike


Off topic, but how much of a workload is 100 broodmares? Would you train the offspring at all prior to selling? Work the mares?

How many people to make all that happen?


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

It can be a incredible workload.....especially during foaling season. It took help from my wife and 2 sons during foaling season.....and I was 15 years younger which helped a lot....I went without a lot of sleep during foaling season. Had a Vet on call full time. My monthly Vet bill during foaling season was in the thousands monthly....and I did all their injections, medications myself.....but it was the most money I ever made in a farm related activity. Horses have the lowest reproductive rate of all domestic livestock....so there was a lot of disappointments during foaling....but that is what made it so profitable.

Regards, Mike


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I know a guy who puts sugar on his hay land. Just saw him yestetday. But sugar is not the only thing he does. He is on a decent fertilizer program too.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Vol said:


> You try the molasses and milk and come back and report how much yield you had compared to the previous year.....and let us know about your weeds too.
> 
> I too am curious about your horses reaction to chemical fertilizer....what were the symptoms of chemical fertilizer toxicity and who made the diagnosis for you.....or did you diagnose it yourself?
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Was doing a bit of research and came across this......

http://www.minnesotafarmguide.com/news/regional/milk-works-as-fertilizer-says-preliminary-study/article_028652ea-849c-11e0-9dcc-001cc4c03286.html


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## hog987 (Apr 5, 2011)

I have some test strips set up on the one field to test some foliar fertilizer and adding sugar too. Now if only we get some rain I might see some results. Right now its so dry the only thing growing is the alfalfa and its not growing fast at all. Everyday the grasses get a little more brown.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Re the chemical fertilizer, the biggest problem I've seen is horses moved too quickly from poor quality pastures to managed/fertilized high protein pastures. They promptly gorge themselves and get sick. Same as folks who just set horses loose in developed spring pasture straight from eating hay with no time restrictions. If they are in the pasture and eat as the grass comes up it self regulates ok.


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