# questions about "brokering" hay



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

In another thread I shared that Im out of hay and have a couple good customers I want to keep stocked. I started looking for hay at a few local farms. Jumped in my truck and brought my JD moisture meter. Id like to share my experience and ask some questions:

Found a nice supply of medium bales at a nearby farm. Looked like typical 1st cutting. Low on weeds, but a little on the tough side. Looks like it was baled a day early. Farmer told me bales went through baler around 14%. Bales were made 30 days ago. Probed several bales with my moisture meter. Every reading was 20-25%. Farmer (very forthright nice guy) thought my moisture meter is inaccurate- I never trusted it, either.

So he offered to split a bale on the parking lot. Bale looked nothing like a 20-25% bale. It looked pretty good inside. Just a very slight amount of dust between layers and you really had to look for it. Honestly my bales can get slight dust in them sometimes. We looked through several layers. Again very minimal touch of dust. No white mold anywhere. Bales were about 95-105* and it was about 90 in the barn. I bought a sample bale from him to take to my customer. He said when his father got home, he would probe bales to see if he got same results as me.

After I got home, he texted me a picture of his dads (same as mine) JD moisture meter stuck in bale. Readout was 17.8%. He said he probed several of the same bales I did and got mostly 15-17%. Highest was 19%.

I tend to believe my moisture meter reads way high based on the 20-25%+ moisture bale we split that was clean. Also noteworthy that I recalibrated the meter twice and replaced the battery.

He also told me he'd never store hay in his barn over 18-19%. I wouldn't either. He obviously knew high moisture hay is dangerous. He has 250 bales stacked deep into the barn. He didnt appear stupid enough to risk his very nice barn to a fire. He was clearly a bigger more experienced operator than I.

Soooo, can I trust the hay? Any other insights that could help me decide? Frankly, it scares the shit out of me when I don't make the hay. I feel incredibly responsible to my customers, their animals and their buildings.


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

If it looks and smells good.........it is good. Go load it up.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Stay on the truck and have em toss em to yah, look for any excessive dust when they land.

Nice thing about tossing hay out of a mow onto a pickup or trailer, every bale is tested when they land.

Can't remember what brand we had at one time, but it came with several different blocks that simulated moisture, clip em on the end to double check your meter against a known constant.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

If you opened one of your own bales and found what you found, would you sell it?


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

If it looks like good hay, smells like good hay and he says its good hay....I would take it as good hay.

I would just explain to your customers whats going on and let them know if there are any problems to call you...

I like a temp prob personally. Check for heating if the hay has been made recently. Also, when he pulls the bales out of the barn look at the sides that ARENT exposed to the sunlight. If they are green the hay really didnt heat at all. If they are brown, like the outside of the bales that are sun bleached then you know the hay got warm and a little "mow burnt).

Might also be time to buy a hay core tool...


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

He is talking about rd bales.


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## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> He is talking about rd bales.


I thought he was talking big square??


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> He is talking about rd bales.


Huh, read split one somewhere and automatically idiot bricks immediately came to mind.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I should of said I think he is talking rd bales.To me sq bales make slabs of hay not layers.But that is here not there,lol.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

PaMike said:


> If it looks like good hay, smells like good hay and he says its good hay....I would take it as good hay.
> I would just explain to your customers whats going on and let them know if there are any problems to call you...
> I like a temp prob personally. Check for heating if the hay has been made recently. Also, when he pulls the bales out of the barn look at the sides that ARENT exposed to the sunlight. If they are green the hay really didnt heat at all. If they are brown, like the outside of the bales that are sun bleached then you know the hay got warm and a little "mow burnt).
> Might also be time to buy a hay core tool...


Hay was made 30 days ago. Heating would be over and done with in most cases.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

mlappin said:


> Huh, read split one somewhere and automatically idiot bricks immediately came to mind.


3x3x8 medium bales about 700lbs. Can't throw them out of barn like baby bricks lol
Didn't see any mow burn.
I want to get the moisture tester that has a probe with handle and a wire that goes to a separate meter.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

If there was no mold the slight amount of dust you saw could have very likely been some dust/dirt that got into the windrow during raking......properly know as ash. If so I wouldn't worry about it if the hay looks nice.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

It doesn't seem to pass the "twist test" very well. It acts a little like hay bales too early.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Looks like nice dry hay to me from what I can tell from the pictures. I have had hay that was baled dry not pass the twist test after being baled.


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

Another thought.You need to talk to your insurance broker.

Take a policy to cover you for dealing in hay.

Your present insurance should cover you for selling hay you grow and produce.

Dealing in hay introduces another risk factor for you and therefore the insurance company.

Every insurance contract is entered into under the doctrine of* Uberrima fides.*

This is a latin term used as expensive lawyer speak for "utmost good faith" which amongst other things means you have to inform the insurance company of any and every variation which may increase the risks they are insuring and the risk factors involved.

If an insurance company thinks that the risks have not been properly disclosed then they are entitled to not indemnify (cover) you for losses.

Well worth the effort of contacting your broker and having a notation on an existing policy or a new policy spacific to your planned operation.

You have knowledge of hay that has been gained through experience.

You have equipment to handle hay.

You have contacts to market hay through.

Up until now you have been brokering your own hay without a second thought.

What is different to brokering hay produced by others?

Well, you did not have to carry the risks associated with hay production up to storing it in the barn.

So , knowing hay as you do inspect and sample the hay in the barn and apply your knowledge to what you find.

You have done that here, but you seem to lack the confidence to back your own judgment.

Your judgment of how the hay assesses seems sound.

Go with it, why not make a profit on only part of the hay chain from planting to eating?

But in your own interests you need to do a couple of things to protect yourself.

First get appropriate insurance cover in case there is a claim.

Second update your assessment tools, moisture meter, temperature probe, humidity meter to test humidity in the sellers barn. May not help until you build up experience in the relativity of barn air humidity and condition of hay stored.

Third take and log and retain samples of hay examined (whether bought or not), recording the readings taken and your assessment of the hay. Keep a small sample in a light-tight paper bag. Will not be able to preserve moisture content but other factors are there in case there is a claim and it will build up a data base for your use/education in the future; and

Fourth, If you are unsure of the hay quality on inspection do not deal. Your experience is your best tool.

Subject to the four caveats above, go for it and become a better and trusted broker than anyone else.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Your eyes,nose and other senses can be fooled, your heart can be confused, but your gut, that will always tell you true, go with what your gut tell's you.....


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

In some states you have to be bonded to broker hay.I do know Colorado you do,no idea on any others.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

swmnhay said:


> In some states you have to be bonded to broker hay.I do know Colorado you do,no idea on any others.


I never heard of that in Colorado. Edit: Yes it's true. I wonder how many hay brokers I know don't know that.


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## kentuckyguy (Apr 13, 2015)

I have to ask what the twist test is?


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Coondle, wow, you got it down man. I have been doing this for 28 years and never even thought of taking humidity readings in a barn. The sample thing is a great idea. I think that would be great protocol for high value/risk deals.

JD, I think the correct term is dealer rather than broker if you are taking possession of a product,transporting and selling. Now if your at a desk buying and selling over the pbone, contracting transportation and smoking a cigar with your feet up than you earned the broker moniker.

It should be a nice deal for everyone. You have taken reasonable steps to assure a quality product so go for it. Make enough that it is worth your time cause eventually you'll have to eat a deal.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

kentuckyguy said:


> I have to ask what the twist test is?


twist a stem, if it breaks it's dry. If it's a rubber band consistency,, not so much.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Weird thing is this hay is bendy. It does not pass my twist test. It seems dry, but moisture meter doesn't say it's very dry. At least mine doesn't. His says 15-19
Mine says higher. 
Going to grab another tester to see what's up.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I'd say 19% hay in a lg sq would be pushing your luck storeing inside.It only takes one bale that may be a bit wetter to burn the whole works up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> I'd say 19% hay in a lg sq would be pushing your luck storeing inside.It only takes one bale that may be a bit wetter to burn the whole works up.


Even if baled 40 days ago? Its been stored in a barn since June 11


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> Even if baled 40 days ago? Its been stored in a barn since June 11


i know of barns that burned down 2 months after hay was put in it.A bale can smolder a long time before it catches on fire.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I guess I'll test them again. Saw little heat inside. 85-100* on most. 
Can't believe an accomplished farmer would store iffy hay in his own barn, but you never know.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> I guess I'll test them again. Saw little heat inside. 85-100* on most.
> Can't believe an accomplished farmer would store iffy hay in his own barn, but you never know.


Even accomplished farmers make mistakes. I also believe the more volume you do, the risk for mistakes goes up. You just can't micro manage it as well, or I should say at least I can't. I definitely make more mistakes now managing 450 acres of hay than when I did 100 acres. Especially in a wet year like this when it seems we are always pushing the envelope.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Teslan said:


> I never heard of that in Colorado. Edit: Yes it's true. I wonder how many hay brokers I know don't know that.


Yea I heard a Hay Broker got peeved about some others that brokered a few loads so the broker turned them in.I heard from very good source,one of them that got turned in.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I think Im going to pass on selling this hay, despite 3 or 4 people telling me "go for it". I just don't have the "testicular magnitude" to put 8 tons of 20-25% over top of 35 horses.

Im going to look elsewhere for different hay.

Might change my mind tomorrow.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

JD3430 said:


> I think Im going to pass on selling this hay, despite 3 or 4 people telling me "go for it". I just don't have the "testicular magnitude" to put 8 tons of 20-25% over top of 35 horses.
> 
> Im going to look elsewhere for different hay.
> 
> Might change my mind tomorrow.


Question to ask your self, Would you buy the hay for your own use, if you would then buy it and flip it, if you wouldn't buy for your own personal use then pass. Your a good man most wouldn't agonize like this, it shows your honesty and integrity and wanting to do what is right


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## Coondle (Aug 28, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I think Im going to pass on selling this hay, despite 3 or 4 people telling me "go for it". I just don't have the "testicular magnitude" to put 8 tons of 20-25% over top of 35 horses.
> 
> Im going to look elsewhere for different hay.
> 
> Might change my mind tomorrow.


Do not put yourself down, you are doing the right thing.

At times it takes more guts to walk away from doing a deal than to do the deal.

Your gut instincts are a product of the knowledge base you have with hay.

Despite me and others telling you to go ahead it is not our wallet on the line, so very easy for us to "make a decision for you".

Going ahead was against your protective mechanism; your gut feeling and to do so would be wrong.

But looking for another deal is very good sense in the circumstances.

If you end up doing a number of deals then you will build up an experience base in this part of the hay business.


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

kentuckyguy said:


> I have to ask what the twist test is?


Grab a handful of hay and twist if. If it cracks and breaks, it is dry enough to bale.


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