# No tilling into established stand



## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Hi to all

Over here in Ontario I've been kicking around the idea of notill drilling orchard grass into my alfalfa field. Just wondering if this will cause any damage to my stand. Also what would be the best time to try this.

Thank you


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Welcome to HT- I will let the alfalfa barons respond to the damage-timing issue, but I have found that some of the late maturing hybrid ogs don't overseed for beans. Here, Benchmark and potomac do fairly well but they are early maturing. You might check with your local extension service folks or ag specialists to find out about this issue in your area.


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

I over planted a field of alfalfa yesterday with orchard grass. It will be a while before I know if it is successful. Mel


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I do it as early as possible in the spring.It gives it more time to germinate and grow before the alfalfa takes off when it gets warmer.


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## askinner (Nov 15, 2010)

I wouldn't drill an alfalfa field with a no till drill due to the rigidity of it all. I'd imagine it'd rip the crowns off. I mounted a seed box on a curly tine cultivator just for this, and worked great, as the tines would deflect off the crowns.

You could also try stunting the alf with a bit of roundup, broadcasting and dragging with a pasture harrow finished by rolling if it's not ru ready.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I interseed with a JD 750 notill drill all the time.SOME claim the cutting of the crowns even helps.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've scatter seeded it in before, problem with no-tilling with about any drill made is you're either going to cut alfalfa crowns or have problems with consistent depth control. Scatter it in soon as possible, frost seeding works pretty well on about anything.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

swmnhay said:


> I interseed with a JD 750 notill drill all the time.SOME claim the cutting of the crowns even helps.


Ol' timers around here would run a disk over a field that was getting thin and get 2-3 years more out of it.

Never had the courage to try this myself, but I can see that as long as you don't set the disk too aggressive, you would be splitting the crowns and getting two for one.

This is my third year of applying anhydrous to orchard grass and I really like the way that the knives open up the ground. This year, it was a little dry when we put the anhydrous on, so it left quiet a few clumps in the field. I ran over it with my cultimulcher the next day to bust up the clumps and press those OG crowns back into the ground. Field is really looking good!

I would think that no-tilling OG into alfalfa using a good drill would do very little harm. Set the drill to plant about 1/4" deep and maybe do a 1/2 rate application in two different directions.

Ralph


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

How much anhydrous, or how many # N and how deep for OG? Any constraints other than having the equipment?


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Could try a spike tooth drag as well to incorporate the seed. A friend routinely drags his pastures to mainly spread poop but claims it helps to rejuvenate his grass as well.

Depending on your area I would be leary of damaging the crowns purposely. Even if it doesn't kill em could let disease's of one kind or another get a foot hold.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Hayman1 said:


> How much anhydrous, or how many # N and how deep for OG? Any constraints other than having the equipment?


Last year, I did about 150# AA on an OG field. Got a great first cutting, but no second due to weather. My thinking is the nitrogen was too deep.

This year, I did 100# AA and top dressed with 60# urea. My thinking is that nitrogen down deep will promote root growth to deeper moisture. The top dressing is to jump start spring growth.

We'll see......

Ralph


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

rjmoses said:


> Last year, I did about 150# AA on an OG field. Got a great first cutting, but no second due to weather. My thinking is the nitrogen was too deep.
> 
> This year, I did 100# AA and top dressed with 60# urea. My thinking is that nitrogen down deep will promote root growth to deeper moisture. The top dressing is to jump start spring growth.
> 
> ...


My assumption is you shank apply the AA-how deep? If it is too deep as you mentioned, is it just lost or does it eventually migrate upward? Here we worry about too cold or too wet in the spring and denitrification losses. The guys with sandy soils worry about it being washed out too soon. 60#N on top of the ground is about as much as we can do in spring and not lodge. I have tried 70, 75 and both were losers but 60 seems ok. Am going to topdress two fields this year after first cutting and see what I get. Know that exercise is a crap shoot year to year as many years there is no second cutting so that would just be lost $


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Hayman1 said:


> My assumption is you shank apply the AA-how deep? If it is too deep as you mentioned, is it just lost or does it eventually migrate upward? Here we worry about too cold or too wet in the spring and denitrification losses. The guys with sandy soils worry about it being washed out too soon. 60#N on top of the ground is about as much as we can do in spring and not lodge. I have tried 70, 75 and both were losers but 60 seems ok. Am going to topdress two fields this year after first cutting and see what I get. Know that exercise is a crap shoot year to year as many years there is no second cutting so that would just be lost $


Shank deep about 10", give or take. Carry over is dependent on soil type. I'm in dense clay, so the loss due to leaching is minimal, whereas sandy soil runs high risk of leaching.

We cannot get urea after about June 1st due to high humidity. It clumps up very badly and is a bear to spread even when doing it immediately after delivery. FS doesn't even carry it after June 1st, so I could only get bagged--which is waaay too expensive.

BTW: that was 60# urea that I applied--about 32# N

Ralph


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

swmnhay said:


> I interseed with a JD 750 notill drill all the time.SOME claim the cutting of the crowns even helps.


I'm one of them that claims.......


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

rjmoses said:


> Shank deep about 10", give or take. Carry over is dependent on soil type. I'm in dense clay, so the loss due to leaching is minimal, whereas sandy soil runs high risk of leaching.
> 
> We cannot get urea after about June 1st due to high humidity. It clumps up very badly and is a bear to spread even when doing it immediately after delivery. FS doesn't even carry it after June 1st, so I could only get bagged--which is waaay too expensive.
> 
> ...


thanks Ralph. What do you topdress grass hay with after first cutting-DAP-that seems expensive.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Hayman1 said:


> thanks Ralph. What do you topdress grass hay with after first cutting-DAP-that seems expensive.


I put my DAP on when I put potash on--late February. This makes the nitrogen available for the spring green-up.

Ralph


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks for the input guys I'm pretty torn as what to do I have thought about just broadcasting the seed but it seems pricey to throw out there and hope it grows. My other option that goes along with broadcasting would be to mix it in with my dry fertilzer that I apply relatively soon.

Any thoughts


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

The seed has to be covered lightly with soil for it to germinate and grow properly. Broadcasting it out with the fertilizer will only work IF you go over the field with something like a chain harrow afterwards so that the seed gets covered. I have done this successfully with pastures and waterways.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I agree with Ralph if you spread it with fertilizer drag it in somehow.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

Durham, this is a good subject. I could tell you a lot about this. Don't be scared to be aggressive with an old alfalfa stand. Yes it may scare you but the results are good. It was dry up here two years ago, and the only hay cut was the stuff we worked with the spikes and Aerway, plus it made second! So if your stand is old, stir it up I would say. Last year we went into the same field with a field cultivator and sweeps. It made me nervous because it looked like summerfallow, then we Aerwayed it and left it. It could have made a third crop, but it got late. The second crop made just as many bales as the first crop! It was something. Any of you guys want a tour and visit about hay ground, come on out.

I would put some glyphosate down, then use a drill of some type. The big thing like mentioned earlier is to get that seed to soil contact. A hoe drill with seven inch spacing would work really well because it clears a little bigger trail, moving the competition further out. I know the no till guys don't like this, but you already have live roots growing. How old is the field?


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Thanks for the info this field was planted in the spring of 2012. I didn't get the best catch and there are spots that I'm worried the weeds are going to take . Would running a set of heavy packers behind a spreader be enough to set the seed ?

Alex


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## discbinedr (Mar 4, 2013)

I would greatly prefer a no-til drill.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Durhamfarms said:


> Thanks for the info this field was planted in the spring of 2012. I didn't get the best catch and there are spots that I'm worried the weeds are going to take . Would running a set of heavy packers behind a spreader be enough to set the seed ?
> 
> Alex


Depends if they cover the seed???Hook on to it and try it for 20'Its going to depend on the soil if its mellow or hard or wet.


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## MT hayer (Mar 1, 2014)

You can sure try that Ham. Maybe put on a third more seed because of the amount that won't have good contact.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I did that few years ago with the NT drill, and it worked good. I did it after 2nd cutting, and by 3rd I could see rows of grass. I think we got another 3-5 years out of that field.

Rodney


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## Bob M (Feb 11, 2012)

I have fall ( September) no-tilled Orchard grass into our Alfalfa fields with good results, didn't seem to damage the alfalfa. I have also mixed orchard grass seed with broadcast fertilizer just before a rain and have had ok results. I did run a cultipacker over a small section of a 1 year old alfalfa field that we broadcasted the Orchard grass, and that killing the Alfalfa.


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## haystax (Jul 24, 2010)

That's the only way we plant orchard grass. I like the GP coulter cart and press wheel drill combo better than the JD750 but have used both. Old alfalfa is TOUGH! We typically transition to straight orchard grass after 2yrs as a mix. LV6 won't always kill alfalfa when we use it. Always some back in the fall.

Right now I am aggressively spring tooth harrowing and older stand. Lots of old timers who shallow disced alfalfa for years. We are irrigated and dry climate so don't worry much about introducing rot or disease. I wouldn't disc a 2 yr old stand but 6-8 no worries

I would advise to harrow ground before seeding to get better soil contact and smooth up the ground prior to seeding orchard grass


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Just curious to the guys that have seeded orchard grass with a John Deere drill what kind of setting are you guys working with I'm shooting to seed 10 pounds just trying to figure out what to set my drill on.

Thanks a lot

Alex


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Also have a half speed kit for the drill if that helps


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Anyone have any thoughts or just trail and error


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## Durhamfarms (Apr 5, 2014)

Just wanted to give you guys an update incase some one else want to try and notill straight orchard grass and did not know what knotch to set your drill here is what a did. We have the half speed kit for the drill with isn't much of a kit just two sprockets for each side. The kit allows me to open the drill to double the width in the seed cup so the grass flows better but it slows the drive so it is only putting on half the rate. So with kit on the drill I was set to knotch 20 which would actually be knotch 10. My goal was around 10 or 11 pounds and acre and all said and done it work out perfect. This is on a John Deere drill model 1560

Thanks for all the info.
Alex


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