# 5.6 ph--Will Pelletized Lime Help??



## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

I was hoping to plant alfalfa this fall until my soil test came back. For 3 of my fields the ph ranged from 6.3 to 7.5. Unfortunately the field for alfalfa had a ph of 5.6--go figure.
I read somewhere that pelletized lime, although more expensive, could be applied at half the recommended rate for aglime and neutralize soil much quicker.

My Question for you experienced guys: From the info provided do you believe it would work fast enough to get PH to desirable level to plant or would you wait to plant until next year?


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Some time earlier, I think that you mentioned the soil type on the land designated for alfalfa. Please tell me again.

At this time do not use, or believe the hype that you have heard about pellitized lime. Allow me to suggest that you begin trying to locate a phone number for Unimin, a corporation north of Tishomingo, OK, that produces fine dolomitic limestone. Check the price of their fine limestone and the cost to freight it to your location. Surely, one of the fertilizer distributors in your area will be familiar with this source of fine limestone. At this late date, you will have to apply and thoroughly mix a fine limestone (effective calcium carbonate equivalence 95% - 100%) if you are to have any chance of success seeding alfalfa this fall- that is, if your soil is a sandy loam of loamy sand. If a clay, you may not have time for even a fine lime to react in time for alfalfa- but that is a chance you may want to take.

Before you take that chance, you should check the pH of this soil by one-foot depths to 4 feet deep. If the pH of the subsoil is below 5.5, aluminum may be toxic to alfalfa roots and prevent root growth sufficiently deep to provide drought tolerance. If this field will be irrigated to keep the limed soil layer moist, you may not need to worry about this.

Please go back and read a post on the Texas A&M AgriLife Research web site:

http://overton.tamu.edu/library/files/SelectingCoastalPlainSoilsforAlfalfa.pdf

This site gives the reasons for deep sampling for pH.


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## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

Hi vhaby, good to hear from you again. I had to go find the earlier thread when we were discussing my soil type since I did not exactly remember. Link would not copy so main info posted below:

VERDIGRIS SERIES:
The Verdigris series consists of very deep, well drained soils that formed in silty alluvium on floodplains in the Cherokee Prairies
major land resource area (MLRA 112). Slope ranges from 0 to 3 percent. The mean annual precipitation is 35 to 47 inches and the mean annual air temperature is 57 to 65 degrees F.

TAXONOMIC CLASS: Fine-silty, mixed, superactive, thermic Cumulic Hapludolls

TYPICAL PEDON: Verdigris silt loam-in a cultivated field. (Colors are for moist soil unless otherwise stated.)

Ap--0 to 7 inches; very dark brown (l0YR2/2) silt loam, very dark grayish brown (l0YR3/2) dry; weak medium granular structure; slightly hard, friable; moderately acid; abrupt smooth boundary.

A--7 to 28 inches; very dark brown (l0YR2/2) silt loam, very dark grayish brown (l0YR3/2) dry; moderate medium granular structure; slightly hard, friable; scattered worm casts; slightly acid; gradual smooth boundary. (Combined thickness of the A horizon is ll to 34 inches.)

AC--28 to 46 inches; dark brown (l0YR3/3) silt loam, brown (l0YR4/3) dry; weak medium granular structure; slightly hard, friable; scattered worm casts; slightly acid; gradual smooth boundary. (9 to 30 inches thick)

C--46 to 60 inches; brown (l0YR4/3) silt loam, brown (l0YR5/3) dry; few fine faint yellowish brown (l0YR4/4) redoximorphic concentration masses; massive; slightly hard, friable; few fine pores; slightly acid.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

The only thing pelletized lime does better is to make you spend money faster since it is about 20 times more expensive then most standard limes, I pay $4/ton for high cal lime. Lime is lime, it only has a ability to buffer to a certain extent based on neutralizing value and pelletized lime does not have any more then average AG limes like dolomitic and high cal. If soil test come back that you need 4 tons per acre of lime then you would still need 4 tons of pelletized lime.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Only advantage to pell lime is the fact you can run it thru any fertilizer spreader without problem, regular ag lime packs way too tight to ever flow out of a standard fertilizer spreader.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

The Verdigris soil is in the order Mollisols. These are good soils. The soil textural triangle shows that a silt loam may contain anywhere from 0 - 30% clay; 0 - 50% sand; and 74 - 100% silt- a broad range. Normally, we don't concern ourselves with the percentage silt in a soil, but key on the sand and clay content. Take a sample of this soil into your hand, wet it until it becomes workable and then knead it with your thumb and fingers. Then attempt to make it ribbon between your thumb and forefinger. If it does not extend outward without breaking off, and likely it won't with only 30% or less clay, determine if you can feel much grittyness that will let you know that it might be on the high sandy side of the sand content. If it has a higher sand content, you should be able to apply the fine limestone, thoroughly mix it by disking over the field several times, and have the pH change to the desired range for alfalfa (pH 6-8 - 7.0) by the time the Rhizobia need the higher pH to begin fixing sufficient amounts of atmospheric nitrogen for the alfalfa to grow next February. If I were in your situation and wanted to grow alfalfa, I think I'd take the chance. Fine limestone rapidly reacts to change pH. Be sure to apply the laboratory recommended amount of lime. If it is much more than two tons per acre, Apply about half the amount and disk incorporate it. Then apply the remainder and do additional disk incorporation.

If this alfalfa will not be irrigated, please determine the pH in the subsoil as I suggested earlier.

Also, even if the testing lab did not test for, or recommend application of boron, consider applying 3 lb of actual boron per acre for alfalfa. Liming acid soils can tie up boron as the pH is raised from moderately acidic to neutral.

Here is contact information for Unimin Corp. at Mill Creek, OK:

http://national.citysearch.com/profile/33531229/mill_creek_ok/unimin_corporation.html


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## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

Vhaby, thanks for the info and recommendations. I will check with Unimin in Mill Creek. A local farmer gave me another place to check for fine aglime just across the border in Kansas--only 20 miles from my place. So, if I do the deep subsoil test and it is 5.5 also, then what? Will lime eventually neutralize that zone? 1 yr?, 2 yr? It looks like Sept 15 is the recommended latest date for planting alfalfa here in NE Oklahoma. If the subsoil checks out OK and can get the fine lime, I will be cutting it pretty close....


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Wow! September 15 is much earlier than I expected for your last planting date. Here in NE Texas, we have had to wait until late November to receive sufficient moisture to allow us to plant in early December, and we lucked out by having moderate temperatures in Dec. and Jan. that allowed good alfalfa survival and growth.

As long as the subsoil pH is 5.5 or higher, you do not need to worry about whether the limestone will eventually change the pH that deep. At pH 5.5 or higher, there will be no phytotoxic levels of aluminum that will hinder root growth into deeper depths. The greatest reason for liming to pH 6.8 to 7.0 in the surface depth is for the nitrogen fixation by Rhizobia.

If you should need to plant later than the recommended date and the temperature has cooled significantly, application of a small amount of nitrogen near the time of seeding will help seedling growth.


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## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

I thought Sept 15 was pretty early also, but that is the recommended latest date in the Oklahoma Alfalfa Guide published by the Oklahoma Cooperative Extension Service. I think Sept 15 is probably conservative and I assume is based on a historical early frost date of Nov. 1. That would be six weeks of growth. Honestly, I have lived here for 20 years and don't think I have seen a frost before Thanksgiving. My cousin lives 3 hrs north of me near Manhattan, KS and has planted as late as early October with good results. I guess it all depends on the year. Thanks again for your input


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## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

So I found the fine lime at Midwest Minerals in Caney, KS only 20 minutes away. The lime has an ECCE rating of 65%. That means I need to take my recommended ton/acre from soil test and divide by .65 to get the new application rate, correct????


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

You are right in that you would have to divide the recommended rate from the soil test by 0.65 to get the correct rate of effective calcium carbonate equivalence from this ECCE 65% lime. However, this lime is not "fine" lime but rather is the regular ag grade limestone. The fine lime that I have attempted to refer you to feels more like talcum powder and is spread with about 7 to 9% moisture to keep down the dust. In the limestone in KS, 35% is large particles that will not effectively neutralize soil acidity. Compare the cost of a 1.54 x rate of the KS lime with the recommended rate of ECCE 100% lime produced at Mill Creek, OK. What you should want to apply is the cheaper of these two choices. A 1.54 x rate of the KS lime applied and thoroughly mixed into the soil, if it is the less expensive option, should do the job. But don't apply this coarser lime an leave it on the surface- it will not do the job unless it is mixed into the surface soil.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Since we have all the scientific minds answering questions here, My Dad once told me that applying anything over 2 tons of lime per acre was a waste of money in our clay soil in Va. Since I keep all of my soils as close to neutral as possible, I have never needed over a ton in years. Therefore, I have never questioned his knowledge about this. Not to second guess my Dad but I would like to know if there is any truth to this or is it just another "Old Wives Tale"?


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

I think the recommendation is to only apply 2 tons at a time. I have done 3 to 4 tons at a time. But I spread the high cal marl type lime that is mined from water treatment pits and it does not spread as even as the ground dolomitic lime.


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## OKrookie (Jan 10, 2010)

vhaby said:


> You are right in that you would have to divide the recommended rate from the soil test by 0.65 to get the correct rate of effective calcium carbonate equivalence from this ECCE 65% lime. However, this lime is not "fine" lime but rather is the regular ag grade limestone. The fine lime that I have attempted to refer you to feels more like talcum powder and is spread with about 7 to 9% moisture to keep down the dust. In the limestone in KS, 35% is large particles that will not effectively neutralize soil acidity. Compare the cost of a 1.54 x rate of the KS lime with the recommended rate of ECCE 100% lime produced at Mill Creek, OK. What you should want to apply is the cheaper of these two choices. A 1.54 x rate of the KS lime applied and thoroughly mixed into the soil, if it is the less expensive option, should do the job. But don't apply this coarser lime an leave it on the surface- it will not do the job unless it is mixed into the surface soil.


Thanks for input. I will run traps on this. One issue using lime from Mill Creek is that it would be a 400 mile round trip--not sure how much additional cost this would be but I will find out.


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## Robin Craig (Aug 8, 2010)

Pardon a newbie for asking, but I had understood that lime had to be incorporated ie tilled into the soil to have any significant diffrence, spreading it on top without following tillage I was told is a waste of time & money.

We are on clay.

Comments?

Robin


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## jdhayboy (Aug 20, 2010)

I believe... and someone correct me if i'm wrong but it has always been my understanding that a ton of lime will raise the ph by half a point (.5) If that is true than you would need anywhere from 2 to 3 tons


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

NDVA HAYMAN said:


> Since we have all the scientific minds answering questions here, My Dad once told me that applying anything over 2 tons of lime per acre was a waste of money in our clay soil in Va. Since I keep all of my soils as close to neutral as possible, I have never needed over a ton in years. Therefore, I have never questioned his knowledge about this. Not to second guess my Dad but I would like to know if there is any truth to this or is it just another "Old Wives Tale"?


Congratulations on maintaining an excellent liming program. By maintaining your soils pH near neutral, you are obtaining optimum efficiency from the fertilizer that you apply.

About not applying more than two tons of limestone per acre at one time, this is not an "Old Wives Tale." Rather, it is a general recommendation made by many of the testing laboratories and consultants. The reason for not exceeding two tons per acre at one time may be that putting on an excess of limestone increases the calcium supply in the soil to the point that plant uptake of more readily available calcium begins to limit plant uptake of potassium and magnesium. Applying an excess of limestone decreases the availability of the micro-nutrients iron, copper, zinc, manganese, and especially boron. Research with limestone and boron treatment on acid sandy soils determined that liming these soils to pH 6.2 for clover required addition of 1.0 lb of boron per acre to obtain optimum production. For alfalfa, liming acid sandy soils to pH 6.8 to 7.0 and slightly higher required addition of 3.75 lb of boron per acre for optimum production.

Now, after the statements above, if you are liming a strongly acidic soil a long time ahead of crop requirements for a corrected pH, it may be okay to apply more than two tons of limestone per acre at one time because with time, the acid neutralization process will have occurred and equilibrium will have returned to the soil so that calcium should not compete so strongly for uptake with potassium, magnisium and other nutrients.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Robin,

You are correct that limestone should be incorporated in order to be the most efficient. While this is easily done when soil is tilled for crop production, there are situations such as with no-till cropping, or alfalfa production, or even for perennial grass crops such as hybrid bermudagrasses that limestone incorporation may not be possible. Where applied limestone will not be incorporated, if at all possible, a high effective calcium carbonate equivalence (ECCE) limestone like ECCE 95-100% (almost like talcum powder) should be applied.

If more coarse limestone particles are consider to be shaped like cubes (hexagon shaped) which they are not, and the applied limestone is left on the soil surface, only one of 6 sides may be in contact with the acid soil to begin solubilization to raise pH. Compare this to incorporation of the limestone where acid soil is contacting all six sides of the particle and it becomes much easier to understand why incorporation of limestone is best.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

From what little I understand dumping calcium on a ground will disrupt the uptake of potassium.

This is where I am, having a calcareous soil.

What I am wondering is will liberal applications of potash fertilizers on this soil lower the plants calcium levels and as well as improve the potassium levels? References are not too encouraging, nor have I seen much to encourage me.

So far this year my bermudagrass hay has averaged 12.6 %CP which is 2.02 %N. 
The hay analysis has averaged 2.07 K% & 1.06 %Ca.

I believe to be optimum the average should be 2.18 %K & 0.33 %Ca. 
The potassium is just a little low at 95% of desired, but the Calcium is triple the desired level.

The Alfalfa is not as drastic a difference.
Alfalfa normally has a higher percentage of calcium the difference is not note worthy.


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