# Questions for T-85 producers



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Are any of you using conditioners to accelerate drying and if so what type, and how well does it work?
I make small squares mainly for the horse market so the faster I can get it in the barn the better. I currently cut with 3 point disc cutter after dew burns off, Ted that afternoon, sometimes Ted again second afternoon depending how thick it is and normally bale on day 4. I use a v rake, and start raking right in front of the baler. 
I am located just north of Houston and it is humid, with heavy dews most nights. Normally the dew doesn't burn off completely till about 11:30. I have thought about cutting at dawn, or maybe even pre-dawn but the grass is very wet with dew at this time, not sure if that would hurt or help. 
From what I hear a flail conditioner might help, but some say it won't. I would like to be able to bale on day 3 if I could. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


----------



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Contact me at [email protected] & I will send you some charts.

I am at Temple, Tx

I have published my information numerous times on Hay Talk & I have never seen anyone acknowledge.


----------



## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

We cut lots of Tifton 85 for hay and use flail conditioners. You can tell the difference using flail conditioners but, you got to set them tight which people don't like doing since it takes more HP to mow.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Do you think the flails knock a day off of drying time?


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

I hope so I just bought a MOCO 630 for the same reason.


----------



## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

hay-man said:


> Do you think the flails knock a day off of drying time?


We believe so.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

broadriverhay said:


> I hope so I just bought a MOCO 630 for the same reason.


I just received mine from Iowa today! (Actually it came in last week but had to be assembled) I cut 6 acres this evening with it, can't wait to try it out in some thick 85.....we will see......


hay-man said:


> Are any of you using conditioners to accelerate drying and if so what type, and how well does it work?
> I make small squares mainly for the horse market so the faster I can get it in the barn the better. I currently cut with 3 point disc cutter after dew burns off, Ted that afternoon, sometimes Ted again second afternoon depending how thick it is and normally bale on day 4. I use a v rake, and start raking right in front of the baler.
> I am located just north of Houston and it is humid, with heavy dews most nights. Normally the dew doesn't burn off completely till about 11:30. I have thought about cutting at dawn, or maybe even pre-dawn but the grass is very wet with dew at this time, not sure if that would hurt or help.
> From what I hear a flail conditioner might help, but some say it won't. I would like to be able to bale on day 3 if I could. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


I think it will, here's my rational......it ain't gonna dry until its cut.....the faster it gets cut the faster it drys down. I would wait for the dew to burn off 11ish....run wide open (meaning the doors and the machne, spreading it as wide as possible) i would ted right behind the machne, until about 4 or so......day 2 I would Ted after the dew wore off......day 3 I would Ted again.....rake about 3 and square a bale and check content. In thick grass it's gonna be tough.....rank grass it will be impossible. Good luck, the moco is definitely a step up, it will lay down some grass in a hurry


----------



## Troy Farmer (Jul 31, 2011)

I helped manage a company hay site where we contracted the haying to custom operators. This site has a thick stand of rye for first cutting in the spring and coastal Johnson grass mix in the summer. One contractor we used ran two krone conditioners with flails. Either he did not have the machines set right, or the flails were useless. Another contractor ran a new holland with roll conditioners. There was a distinct difference in hay dry down. If I buy a conditioner it will definitely be a roll machine. I do realize that the operator makes a difference. Just for me I would rather have the rolls.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the info! That is ironic about the krone conditioner, I was just about to ask how they performed there is one for sale at a good price nearby. Anyone else have experience with krone flail conditioners? I know most of their products are top notch but not many of them down here.
Also has anyone tried cutting at different times in the day? Do you think there are any ill effects to cutting with morning dew still on?


----------



## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

There are two ways out of the plant for the moisture.

The best is out the breathing holes in the leaves, which works as long as those holes are open.

Those holes close when it gets dark.

The sun also has something to do with drying. The sun heats the moisture in the plant. This increases the internal vapor pressure. This steam pressure forces the moisture out the nearest opening.

We must realize there is no one best method to dry hay, as we each have different climates.

For those in the arid west with their really low humidity. They not only do not NEED a wide swath but their humidity go high enough to be able to rake let alone be able to bale.


----------



## RCF (Sep 14, 2009)

hay-man said:


> Thanks for all the info! That is ironic about the krone conditioner, I was just about to ask how they performed there is one for sale at a good price nearby. Anyone else have experience with krone flail conditioners? I know most of their products are top notch but not many of them down here.
> Also has anyone tried cutting at different times in the day? Do you think there are any ill effects to cutting with morning dew still on?


We have tried different brands of mowers and now all we run is Krone mower conditioners. A roll machine works good in rye grass, hay grazer, and alfalfa but, a flail machine works better in 85.

As far as mowing at different times of day we like to start mowing for dry hay after the dew is off. Mowing with the dew on will trap some of the moisture in the swath but, if your gonna ted it out then it really doesnt matter. Just let the top dry then fluff away.


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

Is the stem not the hardest part to dry in Tifton. Crush and crimp the stem and it will dry the same speed as the leaf. A flail takes the wax off the whole plant which allows the leaf to dry faster than the stem.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

wheelgun said:


> Is the stem not the hardest part to dry in Tifton. Crush and crimp the stem and it will dry the same speed as the leaf. A flail takes the wax off the whole plant which allows the leaf to dry faster than the stem.


Not exactly....by that rational, you are assuming that the leaves are not getting crimped by the rollers, they are......but that being said, rollers probably achieve faster dry down, all things considered.....


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

If roller spacing is correct leaf crimping is minimal.


----------



## Colby (Mar 5, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> Not exactly....by that rational, you are assuming that the leaves are not getting crimped by the rollers, they are......but that being said, rollers probably achieve faster dry down, all things considered.....


Flails have always worked better than rollers for me in coastal. If you want to get picky about hay you can't run a flail mower side by side with a roller. The flail dries faster. Theres a lot of factors in play with this observation but it's just what I've see.


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

Flail works great in coastal because of stem size, in jiggs or tifton in my opinion does the exact opposite of what you want. The stem is the debil.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Wheelgun, are you making assumptions or do you have first hand knowledge of using rolls vs flails in Tifton? 
The krone I was looking at is a no-go crack in cutterbar that had been welded and still leaking and overall rough condition. I really like the looks of the krone though, might go talk to the dealer. I know what they say on paper, but in real world thick grass will a new holland ts110 be adequate with a 10' conditioner? Also if buying new woul you get 1000 or 540? I have nothing else that is 1000, so I would have to swap shafts. I've heard that the 1000 is easier on both machines and requires less hp to do same work?


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

This is what I have experienced in jiggs which is between coastal and tifton in stem size, but have a buddy that has more than a decade of experience with 85 and has the same issues that I have. We have both come to the same conclusions at least in our situations. Can't tell you the difference between the 540 and 1000. I have only purchased the 1000s. Are you sure the shaft isn't reversible? I have a Ts 115a and they come with reversible shaft. Sorry, I have owned steel on steel, rubber, flail and no conditioner.


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

My real advice is to plant coastal and you'll get a better nights rest.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Haha! Too late to plant coastal, already have 30 acres of great Tifton! Not sure about the shaft as I've never pulled it but the parts book shows a separate shaft for 1000. No big deal either way. I also cut quite a bit of jiggs, Alicia, bahaia, and rye most of which gets rolled.
Just to clarify, you are saying that flails have a negative effect on Jiggs and Tifton? So no conditioner at all is better on them?
My goal is to get the Tifton dry in 3 days. A conditioner is a huge investment, I just want to make sure I get the right type.
Thanks to all for your input!


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

Rubber roller takes the wax off and crimps it, which seems to be the best for us. 3 days is doable for the second and third cutting but the first and fourth will take four days in our climate. Really what the conditioner is doing is allowing an even dry so you can have maximum leaf retention. My experience with the flail is it takes the wax off great, which is why it perfect for coastal, but in jiggs and 85 the leaf is ready a day before the stem and you will experience more leaf loss. I don't think tifton or jiggs can be taken right without conditioning unless you grab it super early and Mother Nature may let you get away with that half the time, maybe. If your running a business with your hay a roller is just part of it. This is just my experience in my climate so someone else may be able to help you more.


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

If you do run a roller set the clearance just enough to slide a beer box or coke box between the rollers so it barely grabs a hold of it.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> Wheelgun, are you making assumptions or do you have first hand knowledge of using rolls vs flails in Tifton?
> The krone I was looking at is a no-go crack in cutterbar that had been welded and still leaking and overall rough condition. I really like the looks of the krone though, might go talk to the dealer. I know what they say on paper, but in real world thick grass will a new holland ts110 be adequate with a 10' conditioner? Also if buying new woul you get 1000 or 540? I have nothing else that is 1000, so I would have to swap shafts. I've heard that the 1000 is easier on both machines and requires less hp to do same work?


I don't think the T's 110 has enuf ass to pull any more than a JD630 size machine, 540 rpm.....you don't want to be changing that damned shaft......

In so far as dry down.....flails vs rollers you could arrive at any conclusion you want, personally if the rollers are set correctly, I would tend to give it the nod......but then again, if the conditioning hood and speed of the flails are adjusted correctly............one other consideration, pocketbook....flails are a bit cheaper......if you may do some legumes, go with rollers for sure


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> Haha! Too late to plant coastal, already have 30 acres of great Tifton! Not sure about the shaft as I've never pulled it but the parts book shows a separate shaft for 1000. No big deal either way. I also cut quite a bit of jiggs, Alicia, bahaia, and rye most of which gets rolled.
> Just to clarify, you are saying that flails have a negative effect on Jiggs and Tifton? So no conditioner at all is better on them?
> My goal is to get the Tifton dry in 3 days. A conditioner is a huge investment, I just want to make sure I get the right type.
> Thanks to all for your input!


I don't think he meant that.......to condition either way is going to achieve faster dry down on any bermuda crop. Don't you worry, youll like the T85, it'll outyeild all others and have more CP than any of the others.......it also is the slowest to dry down and the last to come out of dormancy, but it will produce given N and H2O


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Well it looks like it's about 50-50 flail vs roller, not what I was hoping for! Devildawg what did you get on your 630? I definitely won't be doing any legumes, nobody grows any around here. I do like the Tifton and so do my customers! My stand is 5 years old I burned it off on March 7, and already baled first cut on May 4, and it is well on its way for second. This year has been exceptionally wet for us, looks like I'll be lucky to even get a 3 day window to bale.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Wheelgun where are you located? Just wondering what type of climate you have.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> Well it looks like it's about 50-50 flail vs roller, not what I was hoping for! Devildawg what did you get on your 630? I definitely won't be doing any legumes, nobody grows any around here. I do like the Tifton and so do my customers! My stand is 5 years old I burned it off on March 7, and already baled first cut on May 4, and it is well on its way for second. This year has been exceptionally wet for us, looks like I'll be lucky to even get a 3 day window to bale.


Flails with hydro pickup, angle adjust and CV joint......all I do is Bermuda

My suggestion, get a preservative system........


----------



## wheelgun (Feb 28, 2010)

North Texas and our first cutting is rarely before June first at best.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

I have thought about a preservative system, but from what I have read here they leave a strong odor in the hay and I'm not sure my horse customers would like that. Is this a problem or not? Are you using preservative, and if so which one?


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Not currently, it is on the wish in one hand list however, I only roll T85 so not as much of a demanding customer base.......however, hay guard has no odor, and theres a granular product that has no odor, I'm with you, I don't thnk my customer base would do too well with strange odors


----------



## Stan r (Dec 21, 2011)

I am just a little north of you and my field is mostly T 85. You were lucky to get a cut in this year. My field has just been to wet to cut. Looks like it will be at sometime before the rain stops.

My neighbor cuts and bales for me. He had been in the hay business for 30+ years. I do small squares for the horse market. I will find out what green mower he uses. I do know it has rollers. It has always taken 4 days to dry. He will normally tedder is each day. The one time he pushed it the hay was still a little to wet.


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Got JD 630 today. Cut about 13 acres today and ran over it with tedder. I will cut about 10 more acres tomorrow and tedder all of it after cutting. Its been 90 degrees today and 10 mph winds, very good drying weather. Very nice moco, Kubota 7040 did a great job pulling it. Plenty of HP.


----------



## Tamswr (Jan 18, 2015)

Circle C roller system improved dry down time for us by a day for sure. The airbag system ensures all stems are crimped end to end. Would not run without them now.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Wow! That is hard to believe a Kubota 7040 with 65 hp can run a 630 moco! What speed were you running and how many tons/acre do you predict?


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

The grass I'm cutting can and will produce over 3 tons per acre if let go to 6 or 7 weeks due to wet weather. Most of the time I average 2.5 tons/acre on 4 week cycle. There is no way you could pull a 10' moco with a 65hp tractor through it. Maybe low range 1st gear.


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Only about 1 1/2 ton, its been very dry here and it started to seed some so I went ahead and cut it. I am running 6th gear . That's 7mph. Really no load on tractor but field is very flat, no hills no terraces. That is very odd for this area. It is river bottom land.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

I wasn't trying to be rude, but I come to this site for education. Most of the time I don't need to post because someone else has asked a similar question already. But since I started this post I felt obligated to let future onlookers be aware that a 65 hp tractor has no business in front of a conditioner.


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> I wasn't trying to be rude, but I come to this site for education. Most of the time I don't need to post because someone else has asked a similar question already. But since I started this post I felt obligated to let future onlookers be aware that a 65 hp tractor has no business in front of a conditioner.


I think JD lists about 90hp as the minimum......but I could see a smaller one on the aforementioned type of land and yield. Glad you asked the ? tho, I thought the same thing to myself.......


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

JD says 65 to 81 HP. I raked , baled and put 700 bales in the barn today all alone except for a Parrish accumulator and a WR Long grapple.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

broadriverhay said:


> JD says 65 to 81 HP. I raked , baled and put 700 bales in the barn today all alone except for a Parrish accumulator and a WR Long grapple.


That is impressive.....I don't try that much at one time anymore when I am flying solo.

Regards, Mike


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

Wasn't to bad . Baled 700 in 2 1/2 hrs. First 300 were in the barn in 1 hour because they were right beside the barn. As I got farther away of course it takes longer. All were in the barn in just less than 4 hrs. I have about 400 or 500 to do tomorrow.


----------



## broadriverhay (Jun 13, 2014)

605 put in barn today with the same help. Done for a while.


----------



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Well I ended up getting a new krone 3200 cv 10.5' flail. I used it on 4 more cuttings of my 85 field and several hundred acres of Bahia Coastal mix that I roll. So far seems to be a nice machine and well built. Pulling it with the New Holland TS 110 and it handles it well but I wouldn't want any less hp, usually cut around 7-8 mph.

In the Tifton I was able to bale on day 3 twice, but it took 4 days twice also. The good thing is I put up a little over 10k bales and they are my best ever, excellent color and tight strings! Not one bale heated or dusty! Never did that without the conditioner, I'm a believer!

Thanks to all who offered advice and haytalk!


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Congrats on the new iron....


----------

