# Thinkin About It!!



## macdaddy

My son and I are thinkin about starting custom baling this spring. We have noticed a fairly large demand for it in our area,(Dayton Ohio area).

We have a few questions for you seasoned guys:
We have no equipment as of yet, and used is our only option at this point. Any tips on buying used? Brands?
How much to charge, we would like to just charge by the bale but if the field is alittle on the sparce side maybe a per acre price?
Should we bale any on the halves? We have a couple cows but that all.

Basically any tips and/or advice would be apprecated.

Thanks
Mike


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## hay hauler

Make shure you can do what you tell your customers you will do. Equipment needs to be good enought that you can keep your name good in town. Over extending, and poor manchenery seems to be the fastest way that people go out of business in our area...

Get a good tractor and a Cab! Others can help on the bailer...

If you work hard and keep your schedule as clear as posibe it alows for error, for example if conditions are right bail all night even if you have no work for the next day and the weather is great. This allows you to repair and posibly bail one more field not scheduled.

Do you have experence bailing? If so great! If not, find someone local that can mentor you. Some if this stuff is hard to get right from reading a book.

Also, You should get into this for fun, more than money. Very few become rich at this game....


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## macdaddy

Thanks hayhauler
Yes I have bailed some hay in my time. 
I am mainly doing this so my son will have some sort of job and maybe build it up and run it himself.
Is Hesston good stuff? We had NH when I was a kid.
Here is a haybine I was looking at Hesston Haybine for Sale


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## macdaddy

Or maybe a package deal like this one
BALER, MOWER/CONDITIONER, RAKE


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## man of steel

macdaddy said:


> Or maybe a package deal like this one
> BALER, MOWER/CONDITIONER, RAKE


That seems a little much for..........dare I say.............. old junk!

I do rounds here and started by getting a mower that would put the hay down in a timely manner. I rented a round baler from a neighbor. This hay was for my own use. When I started doing custom, I purchased a good round baler.

If doing squares like you plan on I would buy a good baler.

And a cheep wheel rake.

And a brand mower of a close dealer who will have in stock, parts for your mower


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## kyfred

Check this out it might help.
http://www.ca.uky.edu/cmspubsclass/files/extensionpubs/departmentseries/aec2010-03.pdf


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## hay hauler

I really like disk mowers!!! Easy to use and work on. Some say that they don't cut as good but I have never had problems with them. With regard to the rake would say what quality of hay you need to make, cow or horse. Teaders are great, will make the hay dry faster and pull out all the slugs... but they do cost more. Would buy equipment that has a good local dealer, used equipment will need parts, but I think on your scale will be much better for the money

New Holland makes a good tractor. We use John Deere's, good resale vale I think, and comfortable to run. A friend runs Internationals, good power, runs with out problems, cheaper to work on from my understanding, cab is louder though (older machine though).

Have you thought about stacking or moving hay for hire; skip the cut, rake, and bale? That is what I did with a high school buddy all the way through college. We started when we could drive with one trailer and a pickup. Now we have a more work that we can handle and a few machines. We only deal with hay after it is made, takes some of the worry out of hay, no issues with weather, quality of product, and so on. Also just moving hay takes some pressure off a young person, low cost to start, low variable cost, and a Great Way to go through school. If done right a person can make enough to allow them to focus on school 100% in the winter. Also opens opportunities to broker hay...

Our market is all horses at 5 to 10 ton per customer of small bales.

Also customers will be excited if you let him run and try to do all with leg work with some help! They really like seeing a young person doing this with help from his dad from what I have found! Sounds like you are on the right track.


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## hay hauler

Hesston inline bailers seem to be good machines, ran one for a few hundered acres, easy to use. We use a NH 580, really like it! Would say they both bale at about the same rate. Not impressed with the Hesstons in small windrows.


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## macdaddy

Thanks everone!
I will defently be buying used, I would love to have a inline but also have to buy everything at once, so I will have to upgrade the equipment as we go.

I was told by a local farmer to stay away from older IH balers. And that a good starter baler would be a John Deere 24t in good shape.

A disc mower is what I would like to get, but there again I can get a nice used haybine for less to start off with.

Am I still on track or do I need to just buy better stuff to start with?


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## hay hauler

This is for hire... so what everyou buy needs to be in good shape! Takes a long time to get a good reputation, can be lost in a month... If you and your son are good with your hands you could make old stuff work, but the cost of new parts could equal a better machine. I would say you need to be able to cover a 40 or 50 acre piece with on machine in at least a day... Mowers and bailers will make or brake the opperation...

Would really push for a disk mower, if you can nock down 50 or 60 acres in a day it will take some pressure off... also need to be able to bale it in a day or two...

That is probably what your compotion will offer...

Also decide on what size market you are going after... 20, 30, 100 acre lots?


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## macdaddy

I think I will go for a disc mower.

What should I look for in a used baler? Wear points etc.

The market size depends on equipment.

Would a AC WD45 be enough tractor? I was looking at 2 of those. But for alittle more money I found a nice 235 Massey, my son likes that one.

Accumulator and grabble, this will come later, but any ideas? The good and bad of some?

Hayhauler:
I have thought about hauling hay, I have my own flatbed semi truck. I haul mainly steel right now, but I think I would have to get my authority to do that without going through someone else. I may look into this more after the hay thing takes off. My son really wants to do the "hay thing".

Thanks again, 
Mike


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## mlappin

If it's within the budget, it's hard to buy too much tractor.

Not an Allis man myself, but a WD45 is around 40-50HP? I was running a 4x5 round baler with a 1600 Oliver diesel (turned up to around 67hp)and it did great on flat ground, ran outa poop dragging the baler up big hills.

Used the 1600 to run a 276NH square baler as well, did okay even with a 300 bale wagon behind it, ran the same square baler with a Super 88 diesel a few times, around 52-55hp I think, definitely wanted more tractor on good hill with a big wagon behind it. The square baler worked best with any wagon on any terrain with a turned up 1855 Oliver diesel(95HP), plenty of horse to run the baler even in tough hay and had plenty of weight to keep things under control on hillsides.

Depends what kind of baler your talking about far as wear points. I've seen both round and square balers with the cam tracks on the pickups about wore completely out. Just need to look at everything. On our old square baler the holes in the slider to control the offset of the hitch were wore to about double the original size, the pin that goes in said holes was replaced several times.


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## Blue Duck

hay hauler said:


> Make shure you can do what you tell your customers you will do. Equipment needs to be good enought that you can keep your name good in town. Over extending, and poor manchenery seems to be the fastest way that people go out of business in our area...


This is the best advice for anyone thinking about doing custom work!!!

If customers can not depend on you to get their hay put up right they will find someone else and tell everyone at the coffee shop that their hay got rained on because your baler broke. Older equipment is fine but you need to make sure it is very dependable.


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## Mike120

I completely agree with everything Hay Hauler and Blue Duck have said. I still contract out my rounds because I don't do it enough to justify buying a round baler. There are at least two dozen people around here that claim to be custom balers and maybe a handful that I'll even consider using. Those are the guys that will come in when I call them (with decent notice) and get out of the field in a short time. They all have decent equipment and they maintain it because it's their livelihood. The rest are hobby balers. I had one leave his broken old tractor in my field for almost two weeks because he couldn't find (or afford) parts for it. Make sure you have good dealer support for whatever you buy and the financial reserves to get the parts. They're usually expensive for older equipment. If you are going to do squares, make sure you have a way to get them out of the field. Anyone can leave bales in the field to mold. You can charge extra and people will hire you just for that reason. I use a Hoelscher, but pretty much any accumulator is better than nothing. Tractor size becomes even more important when you hang a grapple off the FEL. That's typically 1000# or so (grapple and bales) hanging 6' in front of your loader. A light tractor might give you a lot more excitement than you really want. Don't forget to figure transport time. You're talking about a lot of individual pieces of equipment to haul back and forth. Make sure your customers are reasonably close or you're going to spend a lot of time, and fuel, blocking traffic and learning how friendly folks in your part of the country really are. Check your insurance as well.


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## hay hauler

Our 9.5 foot JD disk tine mower works our 75 hp tractor hard in tall grass... I would go for something in the 100 hp range in my opinion. At some point you might be getting bigger equipment and will need it... If I had my choice a 100 hp cab tractor for cutting and bailing, and 40-60hp tractor for raking. It will speed up your opperation to have a dedicated raking tractor. Not nessicary to have one for mowing, and one for bailing though.

With regard to the grapple we really like our "hay handler/steffens". Cost a bit of money though... Might look at a bale wagon (lost of info on the pros and cons of each on this sight).

Getting the hay off the ground seems to be just a part of the job anymore... innless someone else in your area is specializing in it. Most want the field clean and clear by the time you leave. And they will pay when they see 2,000 bales you made the night before

With regard to hauling, everyone and their brother will haul hay with a semi for next to nothing, We use a 25 foot trailer 5 ton at time and get into those places most won't or can't... at $35/ton.


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## hay hauler

Also I think you are on the right track! If you back him up but stay on the side lines a bit, this will be one of the best educations he can get! I am asuming he is in his teens/ 20's. If so let him uses this to his advantage. People really like seeing young hard working kids, trying to better themselfs and they will support him. He will soon learn what it takes to make a business run, the costs of it, and learn if owning his own business is something he wants to do for the long term. If you keep the costs in check, getting in and out of this business in not to bad. Most used equipment will hold its value espicaly with some work and paint. But keep in the main three i would say Green, Blue, And Red.


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## macdaddy

I think it will work out in the long run, I am hearing of people around here that only get the first cut because they couldnt find anybody to do it.

As far as equipment I am going to try to find good used NH because of the dealer location and we had them as a kid and they always served us well.

My son is 14 the youngest of 3, 2 boys and a girl. He is a true farmer at heart, we dont have a farm, and he has never really been on one, but he rents a barn from a lady down the road and rasies chickens, beef cattle and hogs. He done most of this on his own. He wants to be a farmer and I dont have a farm to leave him so I think custom farming is the answer for him.

Thanks you again for all the help and info. Keep it coming! I am finding out there is a lot more to it than just baling hay. But thats to be expected.


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## hay hauler

Thats about the time i started moving hay for hire. Think i was 15, took my mom along so that my learners permit was legal to drive.







Sounds like he has a great start and good support!

Might look at leasing land at some point...? Its a way to make your own farm of sorts...

Would think you will be into a 14 foot disk mower in no time if there is that much demand for the work. Also pick up a high out put bailer if posible... 16x18, if you can aford a used one would recomend a HN 580.

Older IH tractors can give good hp, for a lower price, easy to work on from what i know to. Always thought they looked cool to.

Also if you lease a place at some point with storage/hay barn. You can keep your equipment out of the weather durring the winter.

With a bigger tractor it oppens up oppertunities to do tillage in the winter...


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## swmnhay

hay hauler said:


> With a bigger tractor it oppens up oppertunities to do tillage in the winter...


Take a heck of a big tractor HERE for that.









12" of frost HERE now.Will get to 2-4'.We bury water lines 6'

Another one of them here-there things.


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## hay hauler

lol... ok ment off season. Maybe not direct middle of winter....


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## Dolphin

We can till our 4' of snow


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## macdaddy

Anyboby use Hay Guard or the like?

What are the advantages? disadvantages?


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## wileyjd

i agree with hay hauler im alwas looking for someone with a 24' trailer to haul 5 or 6 ton for customers and most of them pay well to haul and stack in barns i sell to horse people and most of the time its women who buy for there horses they are more than happy to have someone del


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## macdaddy

wileyjd said:


> i agree with hay hauler im alwas looking for someone with a 24' trailer to haul 5 or 6 ton for customers and most of them pay well to haul and stack in barns i sell to horse people and most of the time its women who buy for there horses they are more than happy to have someone del


Yes we are planning on doing some hauling too, and not with my truck, I have done some checking and Hayhauler is right its cheaper to haul it on a semi than a pickup??? So we will get a nice hay hauler soon enough.

But first I need to get the baling thing under way. Im just afraid of getting nailed on a baler, I dont know all that much about them to go look at one by myself and find all the bad. The way my luck goes I will buy one and find out that it needs a ton of work just to get it working. (Time and money).


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## Dolphin

Find private parties that have one for sale, go meet them. It's the best way to find somebody you can trust. The ideal situation would be somebody going bigger or retiring that seems willing to mentor you.


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## swmnhay

macdaddy said:


> Yes we are planning on doing some hauling too, and not with my truck, I have done some checking and Hayhauler is right its cheaper to haul it on a semi than a pickup??? So we will get a nice hay hauler soon enough.
> 
> .


It's cheaper to haul with a semi BUT.

Alot of people won't take a semi load.
You can get in places with a gooseneck that you can't with a semi.
You maybe able to get a premium for a smaller load.
Semi is another vehicle to maintain.


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## hay hauler

You might be able to find a ag mechanic to go look at one with you...? General things, look for rust from sitting outside, fresh pain to hide problems, how tight are greased joints, how worn the plunger rails are (think that’s what they are called), knife condition, can have them hook it up and run it, cycle the nettles, just by the way something broken is fixed will tell you a lot. Was the bolt taken off with a wrench or hammer and vice grips, are the welds bubble gum or clean and correct, was sheet metal fixed after it was bent or dented. How a bailer looks in general will tell a lot about how someone took care of it.


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## barnrope

A WD 45 is a great tractor for a lot of haying operations, but It doesn't have enough snort to pull a very big discbine. The WD 45 is versatile and snappy and will deliver very high hydraulic pressure. They are only set up with a single one way hydraulic system though but can be modified. They are also economical to run. The downfall is they aren't very comfortable to drive for hours on end, most don't have power steering. It would be a good tractor for a square baler and the rake. For the discbine I'd look at something like a 4230 or 4430 Deere or a 986 or 1086 IHC. There are a lot of those around so parts are plentiful and they aren't too bad to work on. When well maintained they will run nearly forever. There was a nice 986 that sold at auction last fall near here for $5200.

Don't be afraid of an older square baler. Condition is much more important than age. Around here old balers are dirt cheap and plentifull. If you go that route find two of them both the same so you have a backup baler or a parts baler.

How many acres and how many cuttings per year do you think you will be covering?



macdaddy said:


> I think I will go for a disc mower.
> 
> What should I look for in a used baler? Wear points etc.
> 
> The market size depends on equipment.
> 
> Would a AC WD45 be enough tractor? I was looking at 2 of those. But for alittle more money I found a nice 235 Massey, my son likes that one.
> 
> Thanks again,
> Mike


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## macdaddy

barnrope said:


> A WD 45 is a great tractor for a lot of haying operations, but It doesn't have enough snort to pull a very big discbine. The WD 45 is versatile and snappy and will deliver very high hydraulic pressure. They are only set up with a single one way hydraulic system though but can be modified. They are also economical to run. The downfall is they aren't very comfortable to drive for hours on end, most don't have power steering. It would be a good tractor for a square baler and the rake. For the discbine I'd look at something like a 4230 or 4430 Deere or a 986 or 1086 IHC. There are a lot of those around so parts are plentiful and they aren't too bad to work on. When well maintained they will run nearly forever. There was a nice 986 that sold at auction last fall near here for $5200.
> 
> Don't be afraid of an older square baler. Condition is much more important than age. Around here old balers are dirt cheap and plentifull. If you go that route find two of them both the same so you have a backup baler or a parts baler.
> 
> How many acres and how many cuttings per year do you think you will be covering?


Thanks Barnrope, not sure on the amount of acres yet.

I think I might have a nice Ford 5610 lined up, its a buddys and he wants to sell it but may let us use it for a while before we have to buy it. He dont use it so it might just work out. The only thing is I think he wants too much for it 10,000$. It is in nice shape with low hours.

What do you all think about this HAY elevator, NH rake, NH baler, haybine just the baler and haybine.


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## barnrope

I see you're a Massey fan from your avatar. I am sure there are some good MFs around too. I don't know anything about them. We have mostly JD or Case/IHC around here with a scattering of old Allis, Oliver, and MM around here, but very few MFs. There was even am MF dealer in town for a few years in the late 70's, but not many local guys converted.

Its odd how different brands catch on more in different areas. A good dealership can do wonders for any brand.


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## rankrank1

My advice would be NOT to invest in this venture. With the economy being the way it is many people are getting rid of their horses because they simply can not afford them.

I too live in the SW Ohio (Dayton, OH vicinity) and literally hobby hay with inexpensive junk because I simply enjoy it. I have minimal investment in my haying equipment less than $1000 in baler, rakes, and cutters (Note this does not include tractor which I already had) and have yet to turn a profit - although I am close to breaking even if and only if I donate my time for baling plus my time donation would also have to include all time spent repairing/refurbing the junk that I use. I do enjoy repairing junk - I find teaching myself to weld, make bushings, etc. with minimal equipment fun, but if I had to buy all new parts from the dealer for every repair; I simply could not afford to do it.

While reliable for my small hobby hay operation, there is no way that my junk would hold up for a custom baling operation. Do you realize that the John Deere 24T baler that you mentioned earlier in this thread is over 50 years old? Additionally, even if you were lucky enough to find one in excellent shape, the 24T baler is low capacity (aka slow) baler. While it would well with a low HP tractor, it would not actually be the best choice for a custom haying operation.

Best of luck if you pursue this endeavor, but my guess is you will find out very quickly that there is no easy money in haying. Remember too that USA TODAY is predicting $5.00 fuel prices by summer and hay prices are decreasing.


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## BCFENCE

Very good post, You made some very good points.


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Macdaddy, The way I see it, you need a business plan. You need to figure out what your investment will be and how much you can make. Put it all down on paper and see if it works. This would be one of the most important life's lessons that you could teach your son. Talk to an accountant about how to go about it or heck, you can probably find the info on the internet. Give it lots of thought before you spend the first penny. Mike


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## PaCustomBaler

Holy crap, $5/gal for fuel in the summer! Hey man, I started custom baling my sophmore year in high school with 1 tractor, rollabar rake, and a 24T baler. IT CAN BE DONE! (Took a few years for it to finally turn a profit though! ) I'm very glad I and my dad made the investment though. But, the NDVA HAYMAN is absolutely right. It's definitely a life lesson for someone of any age at that. If I had to do it all over again though, I don't think I would change a thing. Just remember to take baby steps if you do decide to make a go of it.

NDVA hayman, you been moving much hay in VA??


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## NDVA HAYMAN

Rick, I am pretty much sold out except for maybe a 1000 small squares. I may have to broker some timothy to keep my customers happy. Mike


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## PaCustomBaler

Yeah, gotta fill those orders man. If you don't, they'll just go to the next guy and have their new hay source!


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