# NH BR 780A won't start wrap



## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

Hello everyone

I just joined looking for advice on my Baler to see if anyone had the same trouble I'm having.

I 've had 2 New Holland tech's come out for this but still no solution.

Problem is it makes the bale but won't start the wrap about 90% of the time.
It alarms indicating actuator. I clear the alarm retract the actuator press wrap and then it wraps just fine.

Yesterday the tech from the dealer tried recalibrating it and seemed to fix it for about 8 bales in a row but it came back after that bad as ever.
Bought this brand new in 2007 had them come out when it was under warranty back then, thought they got it fixed back then but they did not. I 've just been putting up with it for about 5 years now.

I 'm going to have them work with it some more today and let everyone know what if anything becomes of this feel free to post your experiences
Happy Baling everyone

Allen


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

> Problem is it makes the bale but won't start the wrap about 90% of the time.


That is crazy. There is something wrong here, as these balers usually wrap totally reliably.
The only time that mine would not start to wrap was when the tail of the net was flipped on top of or behind the knife instead of in front of it.
Is there adequate electrical power going to the baler? The baler wire harness should be connected directly to the tractor battery terminals.
Is the net tail long enough? 
Is the duckbill inserting far enough (assuming there is not a problem with the actuator stalling from low power)?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Which actuator is the problem? Check the tailgate actuator for trash. If that is clear, adjust the distance between the contacts using your monitor. You should have a manual for the monitor which will guide you step by step. It could also be your brake on the drum is not adjusted correctly and is not fully releasing when it goes to extend. when it extends, you should be able to move the net by hand but it also should have a little tension on it and not freewheel. Also, I think the tailgate actuator should have about a 1/16" gap if I remember right. Let us know how it goes. It could also be that the actuator is going bad. Had to replace one a couple years ago. Good luck and let us know what you find. Mike


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Two suggestions:

First. Make sure there is no trash or dirt build up on the actuator side of the baler. I have had several occasions where trash or dust buildup prevented the duck bill from going in far enough to catch the bale.

Second. Make sure your knives are sharp! Many times, I have had the bale fail to start because the net wrap snagged on the cutter teeth. Dull knive can cause the netwrap to tear, then get hung up.

Hope this helps.

Ralph


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

There are only two things that I can think of which would cause you to retract the duckbill manually. One is the actuator stalling when the knife if being cocked and the other is when the controller senses the end gate opening. If it was a failure of the net to start
the controller would automatically return the duckbill to the home position. This was not the case on the first years production of the BR balers with version 1 of the software. If the controller senses the endgate opening is will stop the actuator wherever it happens to be when the open tailgate signal reaches the controller.

It sounds like the actuator is stalling when trying to insert the duckbill but before the duckbill actually enters the bale chamber to insert the net. Next time it happens shut the tractor off. Go to the right side of the baler and look where the verticle link is in relation to the slot in the the duckbill. If it is stopped at the corner of the high point of the slot where the knife is being cocked in the precut position, then the duckbill is stalling on the way in.

Things to check and do.

Loosen the spring that goes down to the knife about 1/4" to start. It can be loosened more as long as the net is being cut.

The vertical link mentioned earlier has a slot in it. The link goes up behind the black controller box on the right side of the baler. With the duckbill inserted and the knife cocked the slot is down where you can look up to the guide bolt just behind the controller. On this guide bolt riding in the slot is a bearing. Move the link slightly so it is not against the bearing. You should be able to rotate the bearing. If you can't then remove the nut and washer and any shims behind it. Make sure the bearing is free and has no flat spots. Reassemble the parts and make sure the bearing rotates. The shims can shift when tightening the nut and lock the bearing from rotating or if there are no shims the washers on each side of the bearing will rub the outer race of the bearing preventing it from rotating. With the bearing rotating it takes part of the load off the actuator.

I assume you have a good connection of the wiring harness at the battery and are not using the tractor plugs for power. And also the charging system is working properly.

You can grind the slot at the corner that cocks the knife to a more gradual slope to relieve some of the pressure on the actuator. Your dealer can get information on where to grind online if he does not have it. Never had to go to this step since it is usually one of the above.

If the actuator is stalling at some other point than when the knife is being cocked, then you need to check the tailgate switch. Move it as close to the pin as possible, Usually about an 1/8"

If you have your dealer back out for a service call have them install the latest software into the controller. The latest software will warn you of low voltage which will cause the actuator to stall.


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

Thanks to all of you for taking time to help me. I did not realize how much knowledge I was about to stir up. But it was exactly what I was hoping for.

The Tech was back out yesterday, he left stumped, he's thinking its a mechanical. I asked him flat out about that as opposed to an electrical problem.

He did first thing sharpen the cutting knife took each blade off they seemed pretty sharp to begin with.
The wrap tail getting flipped on top of or behind the knife I need to ask him about, he did note the tail was shorter than called for and made adjustments lenghting it.
He also placed the duck bill in deeper although he felt it was ok as it was.
No, the power is not battery direct, tractor is a JD7210. Its not half heartedly connected either, But I will bring that up, in fact I'm going to go over all your guys ideas with him.
I have done twine wraps with no problems.

Net actuator is what we are dealing with not sure if its the exact problem but that system and
not sure I know what the tailgate actuator is but the Tech will although he never mentioned anything about trash build up anyhwere
he checked the brake drum

That tailgate switch it one I'm not sure he checked I will also ask about how much the new software would be to install I would like to do that.

To sum it up he left thinking its not grabbing that wrap.

But what stumps him the most is I can clear alarm, retact actuator, then hold on wrap button and it will wrap it first try 99% of the time.

I will keep you guys posted although I have everything baled up for a while now
One of the reasons the problem has been going on so long


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The way you have the harness connected to the tractor concerns me. The wiring on the tractor is not as heavy as the baler harness. Older tractors used heavier wiring than the newer tractors, but even they do not have heavy enough wiring for the load that must be transmitted through it.

You can forget about the knife and the insertion point of the duckbill. As I mentioned above if it was just a net starting problem, the controller would bring the duckbill back to the home positon on its own and you would not need to retract it manually. To prove my point, shut the tractor off, you do not need any hay in the baler, and press and hold the wrap key to initiate the wrap cycle. May need to do this twice. The duckbill will insert and wait a predetermined lenght of time and then return to the home positon. Doing this may also expose the real problem if the actuator is stalling when cocking the knife.

The brake is also a place you need not look at for this problem. When the duckbill inserts, slack is automatically provided in the net when the duckbill rotates down. If the brake was engage and not working the duckbill would still have enough net slack to fully insert and not stall out and again would return the duckbill to the home position.

When you retract the duckbill do you hear the knife slam home as when it is cutting the net. If not the actuator is stalling before the knife is being fully cocked.

The tailgate actuator the OP noted is probably the tailgate sensor.

Yes, often the baler will wrap manually by using the wrap key after you retract the duckbill, Why I do not kinow.

The slot in the duckbill is made like a "T" laying on its side ----|. The corner I refered to is where the horizontal slot meets the vertical slot.

My money is on the way you have the wiring harness connected to the tractor, though doing the steps I mentioned may get you by.


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

I had a bigger post ready but accidently lost it.

I am going to try you wring suggestion.

Your thinking power to monitor should go to Battery direct, what about fuse protection out lack there of does the monitor have an interior one I can rely on ?
Also, power to baler no need for that one direct is there its just tail lights ?

Dealer is working with factory

Tech thinks the alarm itself freezes the actuator in the partial extended positon so, no -back- to -home in these instances, he's read everyones idea's though.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Originally the wiring harness had a 30A circuit breaker installed about 6" from the end of the red lead. It was covered with heat shrink tubing. Does your harness have 2 red wires and 2 black wires? The smallest wire in each of the red and black colors are 10GA and the larger wires in each of the colors are twice as big. If the circuit breaker was cut out, then your dealer can get one. Since you are looking at the harness and the size of the wires, you can see that none of the wires on the tractor are anywhere near the size of the large harness wires and thus can not transfer as much electrical power.

By not going to the battery direct, you can damage the controller. I am surprised you have not burned it out already. The reason why NH included the low voltage warning in the latest software was to protect the controller. I have had a few controller failures because the charging system was not working and the operators continued to operate the baler.

Where exactly did you plug in to get power for the bale command?

The alarm has nothing to do with the actuator stopping. The alarm is the result of a problem detected by the controller and not the cause of the problem.

Reguardless if this does or does not turn out to solve your problem, you need to move the wires to the battery to prevent future problems.

Before I post a message on this site I always copy it becuase I have had posts lost several times since the new format was started.


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

Blae command is plugged in inside the cab on an out let to my right its seems to be a JD exclusive configuration as I recall having to get the male end from them then attach it to the bale command

I will check on the 2 red and 2 black wires

Thanks for staying with me on this one


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

As for the wires coming out of the monitor , Its got the 2 reds and 2 blacks as you described.

The breaker must still be there under my black tape as I would not have removed it.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I'd follow Mikes advice and get the power supply hooked right to the battery's. WE have a similar setup on our MF FWA and the in cab plug will run monitors and the electric clutch on the Hiniker, but the monitor will throw a low voltage warning at night when the electric clutch is engaged and the lights are on.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Another thought--Are you using propionic acid? My 780 will occasionally not wrap when I'm putting acid on and do the entire bale--I think it makes the hay slick. I try not to apply acid to the last 2 inches on the bale.

Ralph


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

Hopefully you will find the breaker still in place. I was wondering how you managed to get those two heavy wires into the small connector that plugs into the tractor? Not familiar with JD but is it a three terminal connector with two terminals parallel to each other and one perpendicular to those two? | _ |

Ralph has an interesting situation that I have not run across. However, for those interested, the key on where to look comes from your statement that you have to manually return the actuator to the home position. If the duckbill is inserted and the net does not start, the controller will autmatically return the duckbill and actuator to the home position without you doing anything and an error will show on the screen with a triangle under the "wrap bale" flashing.

If the actuator stalls or if the controller senses the endgate coming open, the actuator goes no farther and and error is displayed on the screen with a triangle flashing above the "actuator". I do not remember if a triangle will flash on "wrap bale" also, I don't think so. Unless the endgate is indeed open you will not see a flashing triangle above "tailgate". The tailgate alarm is on a time delay so you can open the endgate and eject the bale and close the endgate before the ararm sounds. When you stop to wrap a bale the bale may not be completely round and as it rotates it can rock the endgate and if the sensor is too far from the pin, the sensor could momentarily sense the endgate is open and send the signal to the controller and the actuator will stop. While the alarm is time delayed the signal is immediate and sent to the controller. I do not think this is your problem because the odds are that at least on some of the bales the actuator would have fully inserted the duckbill and the net would have started and just would not have been cut.

If it is not a tailgate sensor problem, then we are left only with the actuator stalling. In my experience most of the actuator stalling is at the point where the net knife is being cocked. When the roller, on the back side of the net cocking link, meets the intersection of the horizontal slot and the vertical slot in the duckbill side plate. This is the plate the actuator is pinned to on its rod end. The slots look similar to a "T" laying on its side. ---| and any binding or extra load or low voltage will stall the actuator.

In this case I lean towards low voltage from the tractor. Low voltage will not only cause you problems, but it can be detrimental to the controller. On the "BR" balers maximum load is at the point where the net knife is being cocked. On prior model balers, the "0", "4", and "8" series balers found their maximum load at the precut positon of the duckbill with the maximum load occuring when the actuator tries to return the duckbill to the home positon and cut the net.

You can take some of the load off the actuator by loosening the net knife spring by the actuator, making sure the top bearing on the knife cocking link is free to rotate and if none of this helps you can grind some of the corner in the "T" slot to a more gradual slope. NH has information on how to grind this area. Also check on the left side of the baler where the knife pivots. The knife pivots on a 3/4" sealed bearing. A couple of inches in front of this bearing is a pin about 1" in diameter that rotates with the knife and rotates in a slot of this side plate. If there is enough side to side movement this pin can get caught on the inside of the side plate the bearing is mounted to. The pin should fit in the slot and not to the inside of the slot. If it goes to the inside of the side plate slot, it can wedge there enough to add more load when the knife is being cocked.

The only other area I have seen that might cause the actuator to stall is the slots in the baler side sheets that the duckbill goes into when it is fully inserted. I have seen it only once, but one of the slots was fully packed with material and would not allow the duckbill to be fully inserted. You can see these slots when the endgate is up.

This concludes Bale Command 101. LOL


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

I will go direct to the battery first, then see how it does, simplest and make the most sense, I think that will end my problem

I've nothing to bale right now just hauling and may not be bailing at all if it doesn't rain here in west central MO.

If I recall to make the connection to the male JD wiring connector I think I used parts from a 220 volt plug I"ll let you know when I remove the tape


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## PACattleman (Jun 11, 2012)

Hi Guys, New guy here also. Reading this post, I just bought a BR 740 baler and was having the exact same problem.. 
I did some trouble shooting and found that the actuator was moving out approx 1/4 " and then I got the error message If I . cleared the message, hit retract and then wrap , and then it would complete the cycle. Mine would do it about every 3 rd bale..and then maybe 3-4 bales in a row . I believe the problem lies in the computer as it isn't sensing the actuator moving. It most likely isn't mechanical or it wouldn't wrap sometimes. I moved the senor pot on the end of the actuator. that helped, but didn't solve the problem. parts diagram shows the twine and net use the same pot ( $47.00 )
I exchanged the twine one for the net. seems to be working , but I haven't baled alot of bales since changing it. After 7,000 bales on this baler, maybe the pot isn't reading just right all the time.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

PACattleman said:


> I exchanged the twine one for the net. seems to be working , but I haven't baled alot of bales since changing it. After 7,000 bales on this baler, maybe the pot isn't reading just right all the time.


Maybe, I'm not sure that's the OP's problem but while on the subject of those pots, I did have the bale size one on my NH644 act up once. Moniter was throwing errors once in a great while regarding bale size and sometimes it'd claim to be full when it wasn't. Took the pot of and tested it according to the service manual, seemed to work fine, re-installed it and same problem,. Took it off again and took it to our dealer and they had several different guys test it and it worked fine. Service manager got a new one off the shelf and told me to try it and if it worked to let him know so they could bill me for it. New one solved the problem even though the old always tested fine.


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The OP is correct in not overlooking the potentiometer , but since this baler has been doing this from new, I would suspect other causes. The potentiometers are a very reliable part and give very very little problem. In fact I can remember only replacing one actuator potentiometer since they were first used in 1996 and looking back I am sure it was not defective. Bale size potentiometers will occasionaly give a problem, but they are made somewhat different and I think the way the linkage is attached causes a different load on it.

Calibrating the potentiometers many times will correct a problem. I have seen the clamp attaching the potentiometer to the actuator move and throw off the calibration and will give you a problem until you recalibrate it. I am not for sure on the BR balers, but on the prior models if the controller saw the home position calibrated number decreased by 10 it would throw an error. I am fairly certain that the bale shape sensors work this way so I would suspect the actuator potentiometers would be the same.

If the replacement of the potentiometer solved the problem, that is great. As I say, you don't argue with success.


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## umstaa00 (Jun 5, 2012)

PA's 740 sounds like mine alright please keep us posted on how its doing and I will do the same

If I had to bet I would say swapping the pots. would not fix it but I hope it does. I spent $500 with no results yet, and you maybe 47.00 and have some promise.

Most of you may know this (I did not) or can verify it, the Tech told me not to swap the actuators twine to wrap as they were different even though they don't look it.

They did install a new one on mine when it was under warranty and it worked for a little while (50 bales maybe) long enough for my hay season to end and my warranty too.


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

If they are a good dealer, they will stick with you instead of sticking it to you. JMHO Mike


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## mike10 (May 29, 2011)

The actuators are different but it has not always been that way. I am not sure when they went to two different actuators. I would suspect they went with an actuator with a different gear ratio or heavier components to better handle the greater load of the net wrap system. In a pinch I would not hesitate to use the twine actuator to replace the net actuator.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

umstaa00 said:


> I 've had 2 New Holland tech's come out for this but still no solution.
> ...
> I 'm going to have them work with it some more today and let everyone know what if anything becomes of this feel free to post your experiences


Allen: Did you ever get a fix for the problem?

Ralph


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