# Right To Repair.



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Intellectual property makes ownership unpractical.

Regards, Mike

http://www.agweb.com/article/farmers-lobbying-for-right-to-fix-own-tractors-naa-associated-press/


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I had a problem with the Teejet electric pressure regulator valve on my sprayer this weekend. Of course, no one carries that part in stock locally and the online sites won't ship until Monday, so I started taking it apart to see what I could do.

One day, and about 3 hours labor, I had it apart, kinda fixed and back together.

And then I noticed that one of the section valves wasn't shutting off. Back to the tool shed. Got it apart. Seems that the seal had been leaking and allowed chemicals to corrode the plunger rod. Couldn't get it working, so I thought I'd put it back together and limp along to finish spraying.

But by then the wind had come up pretty strong, so I couldn't spray. So there sits my tractor with the sprayer hooked up.

Total, 2 days and about 6 hours labor screwing around. The regulator valve is about $100, the section valve about $85, my time about $600 with another $200 to go.

I just can only imagine one these companies are thinking by building non-repairable equipment: Their only in it for the quick, immediate buck, not the long term customer satisfaction. (It's cheaper to slap a completely new valve in than to make one that could easily be repaired.)

Ralph


----------



## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

Not here in Massachusetts!!! JD is under investigation and a class action lawsuit suit is on the docket.
They are out of their minds doing something like this and will surely pay for it. 
And to those that boo hoo over putting people on the unemployment line....look in the mirror and take a good LOOK! 
We are all to blame for this, with accepting this throwaway society we now live in..think about that.. JD is spending more on ways to protect their well being than yours, and then turning on you and say it's "for your well being and safety"..
Man how did we ever make it this far?


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

skyrydr2 said:


> Man how did we ever make it this far?


Allowing the state to take over education!

My wife and I were just talking about buying paper towels. Seems that there are about 10,000 different options: Different rolls/package, different size rolls, different paper thickness, different sheet size, ...... but no way to compare the price/unit unless you're Einstein .... and I'm not so sure he could figure the best deal.

Keep them uneducated, keep them confused, keep them entertained. They'll never know the difference.

Ralph

I'm going to go play Pokemon'Go....whatever that is?


----------



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

It burns me how the big manufacturers (with John Deere leading the way) want to claim ownership of some portion of the machine I might own, Okay big guys, if you own it YOU pay for it when it fails. As long as I own this machine. {Yea right!}

If you have a newer tractor and an ECM or such like controller fails, buying a new one and installing it won't work. These components are shipped unprogramed, and the dealer has to flash the software onto it. And they are also VIN specific i'm told, so no more swapping a suspect module for a known good module to check.

Regarding tampering with programing that would increase exhaust emissions, that in itself has been illegal for a long time already. Even before electronics were controlling the fuel injection.


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

rjmoses said:


> Ralph
> I'm going to go play Pokemon'Go....whatever that is?


Watch for cars, local kids here are wandering around, looking at the electronic device and not watching for cars, I don't want to see you get hurt Ralph. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As a side note however, one kid said he walk 27 kilometers in two days (he did not know how many, miles even though he is walking in AMERICA!!), but at least he got some physical exercise.

Back on thread, when the automakers closed dealerships they kind of did the same thing (lack of local dealership to fix). As farm equipment dealerships close and with their limited hours (farmers have 168 hours a week to work with, a dealer might be open 50-60 hour a week), farmers have just about always need to fix equipment themselves. But, with government regulations (I do not believe farmers ask for tier 2, 3 or 4 diesel engines), what does manufactures do? More technology, that's what. Technology has done some great things, BUT have you every tried to change a spark plug or fan belt in some of these new cars or trucks? Yea, they last a long time thanks to technology maybe, but the tools you need. I had a car that you had to take out an engine mount bolt to change the fan belt!!

It seems to be a tuff decision, how do you (the manufacture) protect your property (technology development cost), while allowing your customer the ability to 'fix' (or work on) the customer's vehicle (equipment)? And, if the first customer changes things (technology or other wise), is there going to be a 'factory reset' button, so that second customer (owner), can have factory specs? Guess who would be sued if there was (or was not), this reset ability? The manufacture naturally.

This is a difficult subject for me, to figure out where is the 'happy' median?


As an owner of something, should you be able to work (fix) your equipment (car, truck, corn planter or otherwise)?
As a manufacture, should you be able to protect yourself from someone changing your equipment (design or software/technology) and you getting sued?

As far as manufactures' protecting their software, they need to have a plug and play or telephone/internet fix-ability available 24/7, especially for farmers. The have had this availability for a lot of software/technology systems for years.

Larry


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Software rights and ownership have been issues for as long as I have been in software development.

When I started consulting, I simply said I own the software, but I (may) grant the you the rights to use it in a specific combination or application.

The reason was simple: Let's suppose I contracted to develop a system which required the ability to enter customer information--name, address, phone number, etc. A year later, I contracted with another company, even a competitor of the first company, that required entering the same customer information.

I did not want to get into a contest with either company about ownership, competitive rights, and all that other nonsense that lawyers like to pull. I made it simple: I own it.

I lost some business because a few firms did not want to comply, but they were usually bad business anyway.

It would be like a lawyer writing a real estate sales contract for each and every deal from scratch. STUPID--but some do try to do it.

Ralph


----------



## haybaler101 (Nov 30, 2008)

There will not be any of today's tractors or combines still in the field in 15 to 20 years. Too much computers and electronics to maintain. Two of my main tractors are 20 years old, very little electronics or computers and I can still work on them myself. Also, have several in the 40 to 70 year old age bracket that see regular use. Oldest tractor on the farm is a 1935 JD B, and one spin of the flywheel and she is going put-put. There will not be any 2015 John Deeres left on earth in the year 2100 but I bet that B will still run.


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

haybaler101 said:


> There will not be any of today's tractors or combines still in the field in 15 to 20 years. Too much computers and electronics to maintain. Two of my main tractors are 20 years old, very little electronics or computers and I can still work on them myself. Also, have several in the 40 to 70 year old age bracket that see regular use. Oldest tractor on the farm is a 1935 JD B, and one spin of the flywheel and she is going put-put. There will not be any 2015 John Deeres left on earth in the year 2100 but I bet that B will still run.


baler, know doubt they will still be ticking for a long, long time. Use to be things were (in today's words), 'over built'.

Today the engineers / designers have to cut / shave every penny out of the cost (for the bean counters, who use to be kept in the back room, not the boardroom, as today). As an example: where it seems in the olden days they would use a 5/8 inch bolt per se, today they will use a 1/4 inch, because 'it is enough' for the load.

I believe that back when your B was made, the engineers thoughts were something like this: how heavy should we make X? Oh, how about we make it 1 inch thick, na, let's double that so it doesn't break. This will most likely never happen in today's world, the bean counters would go nuts!!! And the software will be gone / out dated (I'm more than old enough to remember the software OS2, that was going to replace windows).

Larry

PS And we wonder why we are a 'throw away' society, the way something's are built today? (However, I do like 50K, tires, 100K spark plugs, A/C, Twinkies and mufflers/exhaust systems that last more than one year.)


----------



## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

r82230 said:


> I believe that back when your B was made, the engineers thoughts were something like this: how heavy should we make X? Oh, how about we make it 1 inch thick, na, let's double that so it doesn't break. This will most likely never happen in today's world, the bean counters would go nuts!!! And the software will be gone / out dated (I'm more than old enough to remember the software OS2, that was going to replace windows).
> 
> Larry
> 
> PS And we wonder why we are a 'throw away' society, the way something's are built today? (However, I do like 50K, tires, 100K spark plugs, A/C, Twinkies and mufflers/exhaust systems that last more than one year.)


One thing as a manufacturer, there is much, much more competition in this global economy. In the day of developing a produce and using your example of doubling the thickness "so it doesn't break" in today's world is equal to more cost, which is equal to a higher price. So many people today shop on price. Heck, with our application systems we are considerably less expensive than other true applicator companies but people still think we charge too much and compare us to an ATV Spot Sprayer.

Technology is much different to protect and put a value on. I read an article once where a Ford exec was quoted something along the lines of "Ford has become a computer and software company that happens to build cars". The control system and interface are what is currently separating businesses.

I do agree that it is becoming VERY difficult as an owner to provide your own service for your product. Heck, basic maintenance is getting even challenging.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

haybaler101 said:


> There will not be any of today's tractors or combines still in the field in 15 to 20 years. Too much computers and electronics to maintain. Two of my main tractors are 20 years old, very little electronics or computers and I can still work on them myself. Also, have several in the 40 to 70 year old age bracket that see regular use. Oldest tractor on the farm is a 1935 JD B, and one spin of the flywheel and she is going put-put. There will not be any 2015 John Deeres left on earth in the year 2100 but I bet that B will still run.


Oldest here is a '49 Oliver 77. Grandfathers Oliver 1600 gets used a lot, think its a '64. I like the old ones, I've bump started em without a battery in em even, all mechanical gauges and a cable pull to shut em off.



DohrmannEnt said:


> In the day of developing a produce and using your example of doubling the thickness "so it doesn't break" in today's world is equal to more cost, which is equal to a higher price. So many people today shop on price. Heck, with our application systems we are considerably less expensive than other true applicator companies but people still think we charge too much and compare us to an ATV Spot Sprayer.


I've started to quote two prices for installs or supplies to install an outdoor wood boiler.

First price is how'd I'd do it as in the right way, leaves room for expansion in the future for an addition, a hot tub, pool, radiant heat, kick space heaters, snow melt, etc. Several convenience features as well to make life easier.

The second is the "economy" price, it still works, will only do what you asked it to do, no room for expansion and a lot of convenience features are absent.


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

My best friend's son workes at a Caterpillar Dealership and is honestly one of the best mechanics there. When I needed the clutches adjusted in my dozer I asked him for help. It is a John Deere, but a dozer is a dozer. He said he couldn't, my dozer was made before electronics and he had no knowledge of how to adjust the "old style."

But here is the thing, he went on to say that 85% of his work is from warranty issues alone. Their shop rate is just so high that farmers/contractors are going to the neighbor down the street to repair their equipment because the dealership mechanics like my friends son, are out of touch with older equipment, and too expensive.

What your seeing is an attempt by John Deere (and lets all be frank here, we all know John Deere...ag or construction parts, are obnoxiously high) and other manufactures to combat this loss of revenue by ensuring you MUST go to the dealership for work.

Honestly I dislike it. No good can come of this. This country was founded upon free enterprise and the honesty and integrity of people making a living by being industrious. It keeps prices in check simply because those who want to work, do! This ultimately is legalized extortion, and honestly I thought insurance companies had that corner sealed up!


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

RuttedField said:


> What your seeing is an attempt by John Deere (and lets all be frank here, we all know John Deere...ag or construction parts, are obnoxiously high) and other manufactures to combat this loss of revenue by ensuring you MUST go to the dealership for work.


John Deere is high....but they are not the highest overall. And I think some folks need to price NH and CNH.....they are right there with JD anymore....and sometimes even higher on a comparison component. Several euro manufacturers are higher than any American tractor manufacturer.

Sometimes I feel like JD parts are totally unreasonable....and sometimes I feel like the price is acceptable. Blanket coverage does not work anymore about a manufacturer being high....as most folks find out sooner or later.

Cat is obscenely high on their parts pricing....but it doesn't worry me....I just focus on what affects me and I don't worry about someone else's woes.

What does worry me is my inability to repair my own tractor or my ability to choose someone who is capable of electronic repair other than the manufacturer.

Regards, Mike


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I've had a bunch of different equipment in my life and all of it is high if you build it from the parts counter....JCB being one of the worst, but I love their equipment. I'm with Mike, I've seen some outrageous prices from JD and some reasonable prices.......the final price of any part is lost productivity, in most cases it outweighs the parts cost..... in that case, when time is of the essence, Deere has always been ahead of the pack in this area of the country


----------



## Tater Salad (Jan 31, 2016)

I bought both my current JD's new in 2013...I only wanted the 5000 series at the time , BUT the head mechanic took me aside , next to the 6M , and said " see that square hole ? That's where the computer is going next year , See that space ? that's for the DEF . You and me are goin to know each other a lot better after this year ol' boy !" A computer for a diesel , STILL the most ridiculous ideology for a simple theory of combustion !!! Here's the kicker , Massey is THE tractor exporter to China , guess what ISN'T on THOSE tractors !!??


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I never thought Cat was too outrageous on parts, but again I'm pricing stuff for older equipment that is so common that it can be had anywhere in aftermarket.

I do remember years ago, needed a head for our JD backhoe, was half the price in JD ag dealer green compared to JD construction dealer yellow. Was for a common 239 4 cylinder diesel.

I picked up a complete set of main bearings from Clevite for the same engine for what JD wanted just for the thrust bearing.


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

Is JD saying you cant work on the machines yourself, or they just wont assist in supplying the aftermarket with the electronic means to do so? My buddy can hack cycle ECU's and eliminate a lot of the safety features such as top speed and rev limiters. I am sure the OEM isnt thrilled, but the OEM has never done anything about it...

The real question is what will JD do about service and repair? Will they seek out and sue third parties that create software for diagnosis and repair? The auto industry had had 3rd party diagnostic software since the beginning...If should be real interesting to see how this unfolds..


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

You cannot work on the newer JD series without their software to get into the system. All diagnostics are coded so if you hack it you likely will still not know what is going on. Now, someone can steal their trade secrets/software and probably have already done so multiple times, but JD says they own the software and unauthorized use is prosecutable.

Regards, Mike


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Here's a different perspective:

As a small business, I had the same government reporting requirements, the same administrative overhead, the same tax burdens, the same OSHA and EPA requirements, etc., as John Deere, CAT or NH.

BUT, proportionally speaking, my overhead costs absorbed a significant part of my gross revenue. Whereas, JD, NH, and CAT's overhead costs takes a relatively insignificant part of their income.

And it got so bad, I said screw it! I let go of my 7 employees.

NOW, consider that most equipment dealerships are small businesses (even the multi-location dealerships), they have a tremendous overhead compounded by the problem of getting and keeping a good workforce. One goof-off employee in 1,000--so what! One goof-off in 20---OUCH!

My guess is the business dynamics in dealerships simply forces them into the situations we're seeing.

If I was President, there would be no taxes, limited reporting requirements, etc., on small businesses owned by one to 20 people (not corporations).

Just my thinking.

Ralph


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

When u running Ralph.....u got my vote!


----------



## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> When u running Ralph.....u got my vote!


Mine too, I'll work on getting the 'Bud Light Party' to back Ralph. 

Larry


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

r82230 said:


> Mine too, I'll work on getting the 'Bud Light Party' to back Ralph.
> 
> Larry


Better check with the Dewars, Talisker, Chivas etc. folks. Provides for better thought provoking discussion and less warpath affairs. (Pardon me Ralph, I cannot recall your label.)

Regards, Mike


----------



## DohrmannEnt (Nov 23, 2010)

Vol said:


> Better check with the Dewars, Talisker, Chivas etc. folks. Provides for better thought provoking discussion and less warpath affairs. (Pardon me Ralph, I cannot recall your label.)
> 
> Regards, Mike


How about seeing if Chipotle will chip in? There seems to be a lot of love for them on Hay Talk!


----------



## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Vol said:


> Better check with the Dewars, Talisker, Chivas etc. folks. Provides for better thought provoking discussion and less warpath affairs. (Pardon me Ralph, I cannot recall your label.)
> 
> Regards, Mike


I believe in equal rights--I'll drink anything--Scotch, beer, whiskey, vodka, cider.....but some I enjoy more than others!

And my campaign party will party!! None of this speeches, handshaking and baby kissing (or other parts kissing) nonsense.

Ralph


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

rjmoses said:


> None of this baby kissing (or other parts kissing) nonsense.
> 
> Ralph


Sounds Clintonian.

Regards, Mike


----------



## RuttedField (Apr 24, 2016)

I was basing my JD parts pricing off JD Yellow because I am a bulldozer guy. For instance some of the shims you must get for track assemblies are $90 and all it is, is a piece of flat bar with bolt holes. Your darn tooting straight I made my own instead of spending $90 on that! And the other examples continue like $3 1/2 inch o-rings (and on John Deere's they are everywhere), not to mention odd ball hose assemblies that require a trip to the big cities like Bangor and Portland because you are not going to find them at the local garage

I suppose I should not pit John Deere against Cat, but a lot of people do not realize just how much better the steel is within Cat products. There is a reason why they are called "Cat Bolts" and its because a Grade 3 Cat Bolt has the same tensile strength as a Grade 5 typical bolt.

But honestly, this might be one of those situations where I am sleeping with the enemy. By that I mean all I have ever had was John Deere dozers and Loaders so I know them well; too well because I know their weaknesses. On Cat...I have no idea, I have always run John Deere's.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Well Rut...they all can be overpriced in certain instances no doubt....and your not alone in taking the bull by the horns in fabricating your own when that is possible. I do not like to hand over my money for repairs anymore than you, but sometimes when you cannot find it in salvage or fabricate it we have to bite down hard on the bullet. I do like my Deere tractors...but that is the extent of it.

Regards, Mike


----------



## PaMike (Dec 7, 2013)

CNH/Fiat has really jacked their parts pricing in the last couple of years. You know its bad when the parts man at the dealership is complaining! I guess Fiat has to pay for all the redesigned packaging that all the parts now come in...

Its really a shame the EPA has gotten so far into the mix. If the EPA wasnt involved in everything a lot of pricing would be much better. A NH salesman told me that when Tier 4 came out on skidsteers the machines jumped 7K in price from pre tier 4 to tier 4 complient...


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

I just bought Deere parts for my Deere CX mower. Crazy prices and you guessed it, stamped made in China!
So the piece of equipment and all its parts are made in China for no reason other than corporate greed and they won't even pass the cheaper parts prices they get for 50 cent per hour labor on to the customer? Everyone knows when they close these US plants and ship the work to China they're probably reducing cost by 50%, but prices to the consumer never go down. HMmmmm. 
Anymore, I'd rather buy a European or Japanese piece than a piece made in China by an American company that F'd over all its employees and shipped production to workers earning unsustainable wages in China.


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> I just bought Deere parts for my Deere CX mower. Crazy prices and you guessed it, stamped made in China!
> So the piece of equipment and all its parts are made in China for no reason other than corporate greed and they won't even pass the cheaper parts prices they get for 50 cent per hour labor on to the customer? Everyone knows when they close these US plants and ship the work to China they're probably reducing cost by 50%, but prices to the consumer never go down. HMmmmm.
> Anymore, I'd rather buy a European or Japanese piece than a piece made in China by an American company that F'd over all its employees and shipped production to workers earning unsustainable wages in China.


Make that "stockholder greed" much more than "corporate greed" in many instances. Throw in unions and workers who think they are worth much more than a competitive wage and Bill Clinton for NAFTA....those are the reasons that US production is gone out of this country.

Regards, Mike


----------



## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Not all Chinese parts are junk......


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

somedevildawg said:


> Not all Chinese parts are junk......


Very true....the Chinese will produce whatever quality that the buyer is willing to pay for....the same "junk" whine was once used about Japan.

Regards, Mike


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

somedevildawg said:


> Not all Chinese parts are junk......


Didn't say they were junk, but it's a fact that they're cheaper, Does John Deere share any of the savings with its customers?

NOPE!!!

Oh geeee John Deere you're so freakin awesome, you close American plants, eliminate American jobs and move to China to save production costs, but prices to the consumer don't decrease.

SIGN ME UP!!!



> "Make that "stockholder greed" much more than "corporate greed" in many instances. Throw in unions and workers who think they are worth much more than a competitive wage and Bill Clinton for NAFTA....those are the reasons that US production is gone out of this country.
> 
> Regards, Mike"


Well, in my opinion "stockholder greed" IS "corporate greed". 
Majority Stockholders effectively own and make the decisions for the corporation. And those MAJORITY stockholders in those meetings make the decisions to F over America and move to China. 
Why are companies like Mahindra, Kubota, Honda, Toyota, etc opening plants in the USA while companies like Deere, GM, Case-IH closing up shop and moving to China?


----------



## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

JD3430 said:


> Why are companies like Mahindra, Kubota, Honda, Toyota, etc opening plants in the USA while companies like Deere, GM, Case-IH closing up shop and moving to China?


Presence.

Regards, Mike


----------



## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

In part, I would suggest, because the legacy companies are being strangled by the unions here. To the best of my knowledge the Asian car companies with manufacturing operations in the U.S. have successfully resisted unionization.

I an not fundamentally against unions, only against their overreach.


----------



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Gearclash said:


> In part, I would suggest, because the legacy companies are being strangled by the unions here. To the best of my knowledge the Asian car companies with manufacturing operations in the U.S. have successfully resisted unionization.
> 
> I an not fundamentally against unions, only against their overreach.


Well that and todays unions are not what my Dad joined in his early twenties, back then if a guy was close to retirement the hall would do whatever it takes to get that guy his required time in, took my father almost five years to get a years worth of work in, was always laid off but they kept taking more pre apprentices constantly, mainly because even if your laid off you still have to pay dues. I know of one tin knocker that became a nurse, several others started new careers as well as you can't survive once your unemployment runs out, that and if your not getting enough work then no more insurance either unless you pay the entire premium out of your own pocket.

I was an operator for a little bit, back then they just started the seat hopping rules, at one time if a guy was on a job site he could run every piece of equipment there, especially if none of them ran the entire day, when I got out a guy could run three different pieces a day, period. Didn't matter if none of it ever ran more than an hour, you had to have an operator for every three, now I don't believe you can seat hop at all, so 9 pieces of equipment that mostly sits idle all day your paying 9 operators to stand around with their thumbs in their *sses most of the day. Not saying thats exactly what it is, just best recollection. Could you imagine a farmer having to have one guy to run the mower, another to run a tedder, a third to run the rake, a fourth to run the baler, yet another to pick bales up, another to transport em, well you get the ideal, the average person cannot afford to pay all that help when on average each one only really works a fraction of the day but your required to pay em all for an 8 hour day. Also though it was BS that even if you only worked one day out of the week and you got 11 1/2 hours in that day, you automatically got 3 1/2 hours overtime. Of course the operators can afford this happy crap because most of their big jobs area all taxpayer funded.


----------



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Gearclash said:


> In part, I would suggest, because the legacy companies are being strangled by the unions here. To the best of my knowledge the Asian car companies with manufacturing operations in the U.S. have successfully resisted unionization.
> 
> I an not fundamentally against unions, only against their overreach.


I feel pretty much the same way, but if it was to get away from unions or other reasons, why don't the prices of their equipment go down commensurately with the shift to cheaper Chinese labor?

I'm all for a company finding ways to build a widget cheaper so long as they throw the end consumer some of that savings.


----------

