# Am I nuts?



## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Looking at a truck that came up for sale in Oregon, a 1969 KW 900A that was converted from a long-logger to a 24' flatbed. Has an 18spd and a Detroit, the seller has no idea what kind of Detroit. Logger of that era, I'm guessing 318, not a long hood so it's not a "buzzin' dozen" at least!! Truck seems really clean from pics. They are asking $6k obo.
I have been using a borrowed tandem dual gooseneck, and we have looked at buying one. My worry with that is that my tow rig is also my daily driver, and my chore truck. Pretty soon I would need to buy another pickup, which would double the cost of the gooseneck plan. I like the idea of the straight truck for being able to haul 280 bales, and get in people's driveways for deliveries, but having the option to pull a pup behind it with another 320 bales to get me back in the range of what I could do when I had my 48' drop deck. Plus, I have always loved A model kenworths. All of our hay is trucked, so it would get regular use. Am I nuts to buy something this old? I am a truck driver and mechanic, so I can do all my own work on it.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Not at all. There are many times a straight truck would be just the ticket.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

It seems like it would be a heck of a lot more versatile than a sleeper truck and drop deck. That was one of the biggest mistakes I made when I got started was my partner (father) and I bought a nice 2001 Western Star tractor and a drop deck and 45' dry van, and that was all we had. Being in the horse hay market, it was just too big for most deliveries and just sat while I abused a '70 Chevy 1/2 ton. Being able to pull a pup would make it a good stand-in until I get to the point of buying another highway truck, and a good back-up after that. It having a green leaker in it is my biggest hesitation. I guess I can swap a big cam Cummins or 3406 in it down the road easy enough....


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## Grateful11 (Apr 5, 2009)

Sounds like a good plan to me. As long as you can load the truck efficiently, I'm feel sure the deck on the truck would be a lot higher than the trailer.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Everything goes into the barn with a stack wagon, and we hand load with a conveyor and one on the stack, one on the trailer. I don't foresee any added difficulty loading. Things I don't foresee have reached out and bit me before, though!


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## Growing pains (Nov 7, 2015)

What's wrong with a Detroit? As long as it has the air door on the blower to shut it down and a puddle of oil underneath to indicate it has oil in it you're good to go. The rest of the truck sounds like it wouldn't be a bad setup. The old Kenworths are some of the better looking trucks out there.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

What's wrong with a Detroit? Well, I kinda like listening to the radio, talking to my passenger, hearing my grandkids someday, lol. And if it is a 318, it will do fine straight, but with a pup it may get gutless. With it having a newer 18spd, I am thinking it may have a 6v or 8v92 in it, which would be great. Truthfully the biggest problem is that my generation of truckers is way too spoiled, I run a 6NZ 500 cat at work, hard to go backwards ;-)


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

It would not surprise me to hear that this truck is modified a little, if it was a log truck. The more runs made, the more money made. It was common to get them worked on trying to get one more load per day out of them.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

A '69 with an 18spd is definitely not stock, so I wonder what else has been changed...


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

I should add that the owner seems to know very little about the mechanics, and says they can't find a sticker on the motor to tell them what it is. I requested a picture of the motor, no joy yet. It is owned by an orchard, maintenance was hired out. It was DOT inspected in 2015, a big plus!


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Hopefully it was a real inspection and if so, it ought to be in fair shape. I like the older trucks for ease of mechanicing. I know (back when my town job was working on tractors/trailers) some of the KWs run a positive ground. They aren't too bad, but I always had to put my hat on backwards when working with pos ground and think a little more deliberately when chasing an electrical gremlin.

73, Mark

PS. Yeah, you're PROBABLY crazy, but I say that because of the willingness to live in the frozen tundra and not due to the truck choice...a '69 900A has style.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Oh, ouch! Frozen tundra, huh ;-)
Throw up a few pictures of the place to dispel myths :-D I guess since I finally figured out how to post pics from my phone, I can post a couple of the truck


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Says "no turbo"
Is it supercharged?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Beautiful country there gmc! Good looking truck too!


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Looks a whole lot nicer than a 69 camaro...


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

deadmoose said:


> Looks a whole lot nicer than a 69 camaro...


Let's not get carried away there moose...


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Says "no turbo"
> Is it supercharged?


I hope so! All the two stroke detroits have blowers, even ones considered "naturally aspirated". Due to lacking a full intake stroke, they won't pull air into the cylinders, the air box is pressurized by a roots blower and air is pushed into the cylinders.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

stack em up said:


> Beautiful country there gmc! Good looking truck too!


 why thank you! Pretty close to paradise, most days. I am thinking more and more that I am going to be dragging that truck home with me. Flying to Washington next week to see the inlaws, I think we are gonna take a day and maybe go buy the old girl, assuming no massive problems are found. On something that old, small problems are just bargaining points


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## Tater Salad (Jan 31, 2016)

My Father used to say "Will it MAKE you money ?"......So that dispels "Nuts" !!! Just do it baby !!


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, it does not look like the owner is willing to budge on the price at all, and the truck does not have any newer running gear as advertised. Too much of a project for the money. Still looking, if anybody knows of any tandem axle flatbeds in the northwest or northern Midwest. Would really love a conventional with a sleeper, but not many of them kicking around. Found a couple cabover flatbeds to check out when I am back down.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

You are in my wheelhouse. Quick list of hay trucks I've run.

'67 c60 327 4+2 22' dump
'78 gmc 366,gutless, same bed
'78 loadstar 446 5+2 26' bed, $ maker
'90 4900 466 dta 28' bed $ maker
All of these were single axle deck over cab

In the early '90's I also ran a 45' drop deck semi to larger customers. Generally lost money with these trucks. 79 gmc astro 8v92, 77 transtar 8v92, 84 9670 350 Cummins. All tandem cabover.

Then I got out of semi business and added a tag axle to the 4900 and started pulling short trailer with it. Much more profitable. Bought a 95 mack tandem tractor, stretched it, 30' bed deck over cab pulling tag trailer.

Been out of that for a dozen years now. Pull only '53 vans in a drop trailer operation, which is a different discussion.

Anyway my observations are I think a single axle truck can make money. Keep it cheap and light. Heavy duty trucks get expensive to own, fuel, maintain, license and insure. A tandem with a big engine and a long bed is a bit of a trick to keep front axle weights legal. Having a separate trailer to tie down and tarp is another issue.

If your hauls are long and regular that would change things.

Goosenecks are great but when you deal with mountains, well stopping is hard to overate.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Yep, the pucker factor from a heavy push down a steep incline is a major strain on the body and the mind.

Regards, Mike


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

SVFHAY said:


> You are in my wheelhouse. Quick list of hay trucks I've run.
> 
> '67 c60 327 4+2 22' dump
> '78 gmc 366,gutless, same bed
> ...


I've run into this issue in a few pulls into central PA. Very much more enlightened regarding brakes after those trips.

I'd be interested in a single axle and a 45+/- ft tandem trailer. Like a CCX daycab type truck, etc.

Found a Sterling or Freightshaker with trailer with a 12L Driptroit, air start and like 48' trailer for about $9,000. Guy was using for...you guessed it-round bales.

Then I can get my Cummins SRW diesel I always wanted.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Svfhay, out of curiosity, how long were most of your trips? A big portion of my wanting a sleeper truck is that one of my regular runs is 340 miles through steep country, so a 7 hour or better trip loaded. Wife usually comes along, if we are spending the night the dog does too. And now we are expecting our first "full time employee" in November, and I figure I can mount a seatbelt for a car seat in the sleeper.

I have two major market areas, Fairbanks is 100 miles from us, Anchorage/mat-su valley is 340. For runs into Fairbanks I think a medium duty would be ideal, relatively short run on good roads, mostly smaller deliveries to people's yards and tight driveways. When I had my Western Star and 45' van, I was only ever able to make 1 delivery to Fairbanks with it. It was a massive lawn ornament at that point. Then as I expanded I started moving hay towards Anchorage more, and in semi-load quantities. And running through two passes on the way south, frequently I would bunk up in the sleeper and wait out weather. As I expand back to the size I was at, and bigger, I have slowly picked up more and more large quantity customers. To the point that if I pick up more land, I am thinking about setting up to run doubles south, and eventually might run doubles once a week. I try to figure $2.50 a loaded mile on the semi, if I am not making that, the truck sits.

Here lies my conundrum, and why the long flatbed and pup appeals. It can make deliveries to my faithful horse customers in Fairbanks, where the tractor trailer was worthless. They are less $/ton, but I sell a couple thousand bales a year to repeat customers, nice easy day trips, buy the wife lunch and come home. Need a flatbed or gooseneck to keep those customers.
Running south, 250-300 bales at a time on a medium duty makes for very long trips, no jakes, worse traction in bad weather, and making two trips a week takes up most of the week. Tractor trailer is best, and prices are high enough down there to more than pay $2.50 a mile to the truck. I average $4/bale more down there and sell in large quantities to boot. So I hope that getting a bigger flatbed, that can pull a trailer south, will fill both my needs. Not ideal for either use, but might do the work of both for a while.
I figure with a big tandem flatbed, I also always have the option of finding a medium duty to fill the flatbed need, pull the bed off the tandem, bob the frame and install a 5th wheel, already have my tractor. If I could find a long wheelbase conventional tractor with a small sleeper I would consider doing that in reverse for the time being. Pull the plate, slap on a bed. Problem with that is finding an older conventional in my price range with a sleeper and that long of wheelbase. 280"-320" tractors are a relatively new fad.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

I used those trucks from local to about 300 mile radius out. You are into serious trucking at the miles your into, I take back my suggestion of a light single axle.

I assume you have serious grades and lots of moisture. The only tandem with a bed I ran was the 95 mack. It had a 250" wheelbase center of steer to center of tandem on air ride. Empty it was heavy on front axle so traction was an issue. Loaded was not a problem, that thing loved snowy roads.

I assume you have plenty of moisture to deal with some do you have to tarp? Maybe a 28' van for your semi for small local work and a bigger trailer for the long stuff.


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> I've run into this issue in a few pulls into central PA. Very much more enlightened regarding brakes after those trips.
> 
> I'd be interested in a single axle and a 45+/- ft tandem trailer. Like a CCX daycab type truck, etc.
> Found a Sterling or Freightshaker with trailer with a 12L Driptroit, air start and like 48' trailer for about $9,000. Guy was using for...you guessed it-round bales.
> ...


those air starts are pretty cool, not sure you could sell me one though. Do they still put them in new fleet trucks?


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

how far towards the rear of the bed was the tandem on your Mack? Both of the trucks I want to look at, the tandem is almost centered under the bed. Still would expect them to be pretty heavy on the steer axle.

I have thought about a short van, or a short highdeck I can stick a dolly under and also use as a pup trailer. Would work in most driveways, especially with a short tractor. Biggest objection to vans right now is I also need to be able to haul equipment. Once I quit work in a couple weeks, I am going to fly to the states and will only have a couple weeks to find something and get it bought and rolling. We will see what falls in my lap


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

SVFHAY said:


> those air starts are pretty cool, not sure you could sell me one though. Do they still put them in new fleet trucks?


I don't think they do. Problem is, once there's a air leak....no start. 
I can't believe how cheap to buy a tractor trailer is compared to a pickup and gooseneck. 
The only issue for me would be traction. Then I want an all wheel drive road tractor, then it gets expensive and of course no automatic or AC for my old ass.....lol


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

The price difference is the biggest reason I stopped looking to buy a gooseneck. That, and with the mileage I stack up, my poor pickup is gonna wear out way too soon!!

A tandem axle road tractor, as long as it is set up well in regards to rear suspension and lockers, does not do much worse than 4wd dually and a gooseneck. And in the worse case scenario, pull out the chains, a good tractor will pull out of some slop!


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

sixtyninegmc said:


> how far towards the rear of the bed was the tandem on your Mack? Both of the trucks I want to look at, the tandem is almost centered under the bed. Still would expect them to be pretty heavy on the steer axle.
> 
> I have thought about a short van, or a short highdeck I can stick a dolly under and also use as a pup trailer. Would work in most driveways, especially with a short tractor. Biggest objection to vans right now is I also need to be able to haul equipment. Once I quit work in a couple weeks, I am going to fly to the states and will only have a couple weeks to find something and get it bought and rolling. We will see what falls in my lap


Tandems were just rear of center of bed. To my eye it really looked correct and it would have been with medium duty truck. Scale told a different story with front axle over 10k empty.

It was a day cab tractor that I had stretched and double framed. 350 and 10 speed. Ran the hills nicely.

Had a trailer with a 16' bed hooked behind. Axles were all the way to the rear, 2 6000lb. This put quite a bit of hitch weight on the pintle but that was a plus as it took weight of of steer. I would stack 6 or 7 layers of small squares o n trailer and get around 8000 lb. Truck was stacked 8 layers, it had wheel wells over tandem. Total length was 59' 11" and with trailer on axel weights were legal. Guy that bought it from me pulled a longer trailer but wasn't legal.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Most of the trucks I have looked at are set up as "California" hay trucks, tandem centered under the bed, 28' bed pulling a 32' or '33 pup. Seems like a popular setup out west, so I would guess axle weights would work out. How far overweight was your steer axle without the trailer on? I'm assuming back east you can run 13,200 on an 11.00 steer like we can?


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

12,000 was limit. Remember I had a 10' deck over the cab, so somewhere around 60 bale on it alone. These are light bales maybe 45lb average. It was common to see these setups years ago and it worked slick with a light gas engine.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Ah, I gotcha, I was reading too fast and missed the deck over the cab part. Most semi's seem to run 9k or better on the steers, empty. My western star was 10,800 bobtail. I can see the deck over the cab not working on many big rigs.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Yeah anytime you stretch that frame and slide tandems back, it messes up your front axle. I can usually point out former road tractors that were stretched into long tandems. 
There's a guy around here who has a 30' tandem round bale truck I really like.

My favorite straight RB hay truck for my situation would be a 30' single axle dump bed 4WD, 275HP CAT or Cummins, Allison automatic with a 20k air lift axle for bob tailing home. 
I actually like freightshaker cabs, so make mine a FL. 
I found one in CA. I guess it was being sold because of pollution regs, but it had 6.50 rears. I'd rather have something in the low-mid 4's.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

That is a pretty specific spec list, can be a long wait to find just the right one. Sounds like it would be a heck of a truck, though. Only thing I would change (other than I prefer shifting my own gears), is I really can't do a lift axle in the drive group, our state regs dock 3k lbs of your allowable gross with a lift axle in the drive group, has to be 8'2 from the drives. Amazing how differently trucks are setup in different places because of state law.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, the big question of what I should buy is answered. Bought a truck in Boise today, sight unseen. That part is a little unsettling, but makes life so much easier because I can have the title in hand, and already have it registered and plated with Alaska farm plates. Makes the scale houses much easier to deal with! 
As for the truck, it is not a flatbed. It is a '94 Western Star tractor, 425hp 3406c cat mechanical motor, 9 speed, air ride, 60" mid roof sleeper. 1.5 million miler, but it runs smooth with little blowby, and drives quiet. Really clean for a truck with that high of mileage. Got a good deal, I think because they didn't know anything about the truck (auction buy, no history), and because folks are leery of the C model cats because of the bad reputation of the PEEC motors. Amazingly enough, the wife talked me into buying a tractor, she said we both know it is what we will need in the long run, and I loved my last truck. She wants me to have something I will be proud to drive. I got a good woman!


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## Wethay (Jul 17, 2015)

I have never had the guts to buy equipment sight unseen, and with my equipment budget a trip to see it would probably be more than I could pay for just the piece of equipment. I wish you luck. A truck like that has great possibilities.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

This is the first time I have not at least had a friend go look it over close. It took a lot of prayer to jump in without looking at it. Hoping it does not bite me too bad, I paid $7750 for it, so even if it needs something major like an inframe or a gearbox rebuilt, I won't be too far into it. I just hope it makes the long trip home without major issues. Looking at a 5100 mile test drive by the time it is all said and done


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## SVFHAY (Dec 5, 2008)

Best of luck, those stars are tough trucks and a mechanical is something you can troubleshoot and keep running yourself.

Blows my mind that I am closer to Boise than you.


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## sixtyninegmc (Jul 20, 2011)

Well, the 5100 miles also includes a short little jaunt over to Iowa to pick up a Vermeer TE330 a friend bought over that way.


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