# dry enough?



## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't have a moisture meter or anything technical to measure moisture. My hay is dry"ish" what I mean is some is dry some has moisture still in it... without knowing for certain the moisture content I don't know if I should bale or not. I could keep waiting which wont hurt unless it rains of course. My info is very vague I understand but can hay that has more than ideal moisture still turn out if it's close "enough" to proper moisture level or is it always a certain disaster.

I keep raking opposite directions only using the end of the rake to just flip it... or I raise the left side and lower the right to kind of feather it out or spread it out. With the humidity high and mainly cloudy days it's drying really slowly. I've obviously have it cut and mainly dried out.... I'd really prefer not to lose it at this point. Is it worth baling in the next couple days and crossing my fingers? Or smarter to not bale at all unless it's dried for certain...


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

What a difference of 150 miles makes (West to East) in the same state, been raining here since last night.

As far as your decision, stacking hay on edge (cut side up in MY area), with spaces between has worked in the past. I can even remember putting a cup of salt per bale (sprinkling on each bale). What is really hard is to guestimate YOUR moisture level, this is were experience comes in and it appears you are going to gain some shortly. Even if you only bale 5-10 bales an monitor closely (heat is your enemy).

I was taught something like this 110 degrees inside of bale OK, 120 OK, but check more, 130 start worrying, check more often, if raising get it moved quickly, if 140 call the fire department BEFORE moving. Could be different in YOUR area and you are dealing with rain moisture and stem moisture (there is a difference).

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

If I do a test of 10 bales how long do I have to monitor before I know I'm in the clear or not?


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## Steve 78 (Jul 31, 2015)

Hard to get hay to dry in September at least here in northeast Michigan. That said , I agree with what Larry said, space them out use white feeding salt. My experience has been that you can bale hay tougher this time of year and it won't heat.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> If I do a test of 10 bales how long do I have to monitor before I know I'm in the clear or not?


See page 66, 2 weeks of monitoring.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

how do I monitor 2 weeks? that means it'll have to be stored outside in thew rain...


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

How many bales you looking at?

We've just stacked em loose with a little space between em in a single layer.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Inside in hall way, barn floor, garage, any where, just not on bare floor (concrete or other wise), put on top of some straw bales as an example. It is only for a couple of weeks (you will most likely know about the heat in a couple of days, is my experience).

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

why can't they be on cement barn floor?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

You could test your moisture with a cheap wal mart microwave.

https://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/forages/publications/ID-172.htm


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> why can't they be on cement barn floor?


Concrete doesn't let air thru....


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

r82230 said:


> Inside in hall way, barn floor, garage, any where, just not on bare floor (concrete or other wise), put on top of some straw bales as an example. It is only for a couple of weeks (you will most likely know about the heat in a couple of days, is my experience).
> 
> Larry


Yep, I should have added in my other post, we'd spread em out on a mow floor or on another layer of dry hay. Concrete usually sweats to much and it sure doesn't breath.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

When I do the twist test it does not spring back.. However it does not twist in half or make extreme crunching sounds. It's lightly green and holds its twist shape. It does make a rustling sound when handling.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

With your limited knowledge of hay baling, I really think testing the moisture is in order. Then you will know the feel and of truly dry hay. Twist test is mediocre at best. It works but it's not very scientific.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Perhaps I missed reading what your hay is. If it is alfalfa, the thumbnail stem scratch will give you another clue about being sufficiently dry to bale. If the epidermis (outer layer) of the stem scratches off, the stem is too wet to bail. If you can't scratch it off, the moisture is likely okay to begin baling as long as the leaves aren't too moist.

If you know what the normal weight of bales from previous baling has been, you can bale a few bales, stop baling, and pick up a bale. If it feels heavier than normal and you haven't changed baler settings, likely you're baling too wet.

Where is HayWilson when we need him. He has recommended purchasing a hygrometer to use to test humidity at (or in) the windrow. If the humidity is 65%, alfalfa hay is ready to bale as the hay moisture will be in the 16% range.

90% humidity = 40% or more moisture in hay

70% humidity = 18 to 20% moisture in hay

65% humidity in windrow = 16% moisture range.

Do a search in HT to find how Mr. Wilson recommends determining proper moisture for baling alfalfa.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm baling orchard grass


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

vhaby said:


> Where is HayWilson when we need him.


I know I sure miss his words of wisdom.

If there is a HT hall of fame, I sure hope he is elected to the hall on the first ballot, if he is not already enshrined there.

He is one of the biggest reasons, I lurked around HT for a lot of years, just soaking up his wisdom. I am humbled by his vast knowledge and willingness to share with others, time and time again.

God bless him, hope he is doing well.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

If the hay is mainly dry but has some green with moisture in it will it turn out? I know very vague question but overall the hay seems borderline with some more than desired mixed in. Will some moisture be ok and get absorbed or will it just ruin everything?

I did 2 test bales and they were visibly green and a bit heavier than normal. I have them laying cut side up in the field. I'll cut them open tomorrow afternoon and have a look. I'm just bummed that most is dry but I can't seem to get everything dried all the way. Some areas are better than others.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

At this time of year you need a portable generator, on a trailer, taken to the field with you and when you find a wet spot in the windrow plug in a hand held hair dryer and dry it.  just fun'n with you


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm baling tomorrow so I guess I'll find out.... It was cut last Friday/Saturday.... It's now or never.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Bale, (you might need to loosen the tension some, or you will have strings tighter than a drum), get them inside, on edge, with space between, on top of something (hay/straw, not bare floor). Check their temperature daily. Your hot water heater is probably set to 120 degrees to give you a baseline idea of that temperature.

I was just at a Family Farm & Store store where they had a 'managers special' on a infrared thermometer, for $10. If you had one of these you could just stick a piece of metal in a couple of bales for 5-10 minutes, pull out and read the temperature. Or just stick an old fashion, wall thermometer in the bale.

Your experience will not be soon forgotten, and next year I think you might just 'hang it up' around the middle of September as I do. It is just too much of a PI/A, with the weather and heavy dews. The best thing you have going for you is that your hay is many OG.

Looks like your forecast is light frost, gone by 9am, SW 7 winds, partly cloudy, but a high of 56 degrees/49% humidity, with a pan evaporation of 0.10. Yep, get it turned over (after dew/frost is gone), say a couple of prayers and maybe bale later in the afternoon. If not Sunday looks more promising (pan evaporation 0.17) and 10mph winds, with 67 degrees/44% humidity.

This hay otta be dizzy, as many times as your have rolled it over, it nothing else.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'd like to do it tomorrow but Sunday seems like a smarter idea... you are correct.... I've turned this hay many many times... Next year I will not be doing a cutting this late. My father in law his a laser temperature device of some sort. You shoot the laser at something and it registers a digital temp reading. So if I understand correctly.... stick a metal rod into the bale let it sit for a few mins and then shoot the laser at the metal rod?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Is there any science to the method of adding salt to the moist bale of hay? If so how much and how is it applied?

https://shop.familyfarmandhome.com/products/salt-stock-easy-flow-50lb-1194.html

would this work?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I just read a post on another forum

A few years ago at a local hay sale I met a guy that always brought in small squares with a hole about 2 inches in dia. in the center of the bale. It ran the whole length of the bale. I asked him how he did that and why. He said that it helped hay dry if baled a little wet. He made a 6inch spear for the end of his plunger. He offered to make me one I installed on my JD 348 it did seem to help hay dry.

Seems interesting...


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## SCtrailrider (May 1, 2016)

Much easier to just wait and let it cure the right way, after all if you bale it too soon all your work is lost and worth nothing no matter what "fix" ya try......


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

SCtrailrider said:


> Much easier to just wait and let it cure the right way, after all if you bale it too soon all your work is lost and worth nothing no matter what "fix" ya try......


I'm not sure it will cure "all the way" even if I keep waiting. No rain today, sunday, or monday.... However I work Monday... I'm going to bale what I think is safe today and wait until tomorrow for the thicker rows. I'm going to give this salting strategy a shot and see what happens.


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## DYNOBOB (Nov 29, 2011)

FWIW. In Cinci I have gotten hay done in a five day window in late Oct many times.

A green spot will not hurt a bale as long as 95% of the bale was properly dry. That said, if I see one when raking I stop and pull it out.

I can't imagine that after a week you wouldn't be safe to bale. A pic of your windrow would help us a lot.

Good luck!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I will get pictures or a video posted asap. I started pulling some wet green grass out yesterday.

Additional info I think I stated in my original post. It was rained on the day after I cut pretty heavily... also I don'y have a tedder. I have a nh 256 rake so when I raked it makes a rope which as we all know the inside will NOT dry. So I've been adjusting my rake to feather it and raise up the height of the windrows. Raking one direction then the other direction....

I am looking at a website intellicast.com and it's showing 55-60% relative humidity between 11-2:00 so I guess that's when I'm out there.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> If the hay is mainly dry but has some green with moisture in it will it turn out? I know very vague question but overall the hay seems borderline with some more than desired mixed in. Will some moisture be ok and get absorbed or will it just ruin everything?
> 
> I did 2 test bales and they were visibly green and a bit heavier than normal. I have them laying cut side up in the field. I'll cut them open tomorrow afternoon and have a look. I'm just bummed that most is dry but I can't seem to get everything dried all the way. Some areas are better than others.


It's kinda like one rotten apple spoils the whole bunch. It may not ruin the whole load, but each damp spot will be moldy/dusty. Better to have it over dry than under dry if you ask me, you do what you want and what works for you.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I baled 21 and blew a belt. However, I learned that you can still run with 2/3 belts. Then I proceeded to crack a needle in half... The other needle was welded in the same spot.

I'll upload my video to YouTube and post the link.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)




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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Looks like that needle broke right next to the weld in the area known as the "heat affected zone". Cast can be quite tricky to weld. I believe I would braze it back together instead of welding it as that is simply a better overall repair on most forms of cast that is pretty much a can not miss repair where weld may or may not work.

When you re-install that repaired needle (or a brand new one) it has to be adjusted such that it lightly rubs the the knotter frame. To much clearance to the knotter frame and it will not tie. Too little clearance to the knotter frame and it can bust a knotter frame (I learned this $200 lesson the hard way unfortunately a few years ago).

Along with that the knotter frames should be adjusted with shim washers on the main knotter shaft so they are not slopping around on the knotter shaft or you will never maintain the proper needle to knotter frame clearance if those are moving around due to excessive slop. My issue was mostly a rusted out rear bale chamber that was allowing the needle yoke to move around excessively. I could not maintain proper needle to knotter clearnance due to slop at the needle pivot point. Welding in new metal for the rusted out metal was the fix for that.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't know anything about welding. I just watched a video where a kid welded cast iron with a mig welder using stainless steel 308L .030 wire. I need to get this fixed asap so I can finish the field. It might be a blessing in disguise because the field has another good day of drying tomorrow. I hope I can figure this out...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I don't know anything about welding.....


Even more the reason to braze it. Chances of a total newbie repairing cast iron successfully with braze are near 100%. Chances of a total newbie successfully repairing cast iron with weld are low.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Brazing is basically melting that brazing stick on the crack? Letting it cool and then checking the integrity of the repair. Sounds a little to straight forward...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Brazing is basically melting that brazing stick on the crack? Letting it cool and then checking the integrity of the repair. Sounds a little to straight forward...


That is basically it although some prep work is required. There will be some grinding and beveling of the part to be repaired around the crack , some flux applied, and likely some post brazing grinding to desired shape for appearance but otherwise as close as there is to a sure thing on a cast iron repair.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Welded lots of cast, brazing works okay. Carbon arc torch with stick welder is strongest.


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## NebTrac (Aug 12, 2014)

Sure looks like its ready to go to me. I believe your greener stuff is from when your turning it and its pulling some regrowth with it. At least that's what I think it looks like.

Troy


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

rankrank1 said:


> That is basically it although some prep work is required. There will be some grinding and beveling of the part to be repaired around the crack , some flux applied, and likely some post brazing grinding to desired shape for appearance but otherwise as close as there is to a sure thing on a cast iron repair.


The brazing stick comes with Flux on it. Hopefully that is adequate. I'm going to be trying this today. I'm not exactly sure how to clamp the two parts together without covering the crack. Also need to learn how I need to bevel the work surface.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

do I specifically need a brazing stick for cast or will any other one work? Such as Copper or Brass?! I don't see a cast iron brazing stick at Lowes.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony

My 1st thought when viewing your video is I would want to combine 3 or 4 of your windrows so baler has an opportunity to make a good bale of hay. Is your balers plunger head stop operating correctly??


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Tx Jim said:


> MyDaughtersPony
> 
> My 1st thought when viewing your video is I would want to combine 3 or 4 of your windrows so baler has an opportunity to make a good bale of hay. Is your balers plunger head stop operating correctly??


I have not checked the plunger head but I am assuming it's working correctly. Are you thinking that the plunger head hit the needle? That would seem odd since only 1 broke and not the other. I did 20 bales perfectly tied so I'm assuming the needles were working proper up until it cracked off. I don't see any impact marks on the needle where it might have hit or been hit.

I will probably take your advice and combine some rows today. My baler seems to have a hard time with bigger rows but I do agree at least doubling would be better.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

IMHO, any brazing stick will work, the only difference is the size in diameter and if it has flux on it or not.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Ok thanks Larry. What size should I be looking for for this type of job? Any opinion on my video?


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Grab what ever size they have, I would go big. You will be 'melting' material into a groove that you grind, so bigger fills faster (as rank, mentions grinding/beveling an area, where broken, you will be filling that area in with this brazing material).

Your video, as someone mentions, looks like the 'wet' green stuff is coming from your rake, re-raking operation.

Your bigger problem is getting that needle fixed and working right. As some mentions above, it needs to 'rub' across the twine holders, rubbing too hard could cause what you presently have (broken needle, with too much pressure applied to needle) and rubbing not at all (no tying or skipping of tying of the twine).

As TxJim, mentions, your windows are what I would call 'light', BUT I don't know YOUR balers capacity. With my JD24t, I would have 4-6 of those windrows raked together, BUT it would also be 6 weeks ago, with much different weather/drying conditions than you presently have. Your windrows will work as is BUT your bale shapes might leave something to desire, while your are doing a LOT of traveling around the field (what my late Dad would call 'chasing hay').

This is were 'counting' plunger strokes per bale comes in, I think I counted in one of your videos 45-50 strokes per bale, I shoot for 15 (14-16), per bale. I am like good old HayWilson, was taught to count the plunger strokes years ago and haven't stopped. 

However, good thing about your light windrows, if you can't get it baled, there should not be much damage to NEXT years hay crop.

So until you get your baler fixed and working properly today, I would not increase the windrow size (or worry about the plunger strokes per bale). Kind of a first things, first.

Good luck,

Larry


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I just read a post on another forum
> 
> A few years ago at a local hay sale I met a guy that always brought in small squares with a hole about 2 inches in dia. in the center of the bale. It ran the whole length of the bale. I asked him how he did that and why. He said that it helped hay dry if baled a little wet. He made a 6inch spear for the end of his plunger. He offered to make me one I installed on my JD 348 it did seem to help hay dry.
> 
> Seems interesting...


Yah, kinda, maybe&#8230;

the ends of the bales need to be exposed to air then to let the moisture out of the bale.

It was all the rage at the hay auctions for a bit, haven't seen any small squares with holes in em for awhile now, most guys have just added some sort of preservative to their balers instead.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

If your going to weld cast use nickel rod with a stick welder.

I've repaired engine blocks using nickel rod and the last I did I used stainless in the mig machine, all have held so far. With the cost of stainless wire my repair doubled the value of Dads tired old Ford forklift. 

Cast actually brazes up really nice considering that it's so porous it gives plenty of surface for the braze to stick to.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Thanks everyone


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Can I just try to match the position of the other needle? It was still working and tying when I went down.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> Can I just try to match the position of the other needle? It was still working and tying when I went down.


Actually we've repaired many a needle by taking the good one out and clamping the broken one to it as a template, depends on how clean the break is on the busted one, usually cast breaks pretty clean without much deflection unlike mild steel.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I meant when installing the repaired needle... As far as positioning.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I meant when installing the repaired needle... As far as positioning.


Well I already covered that in post #32 and your book covers that as well. There is absolutely no guarantee the unbroken one is properly adjusted either so you will want to double check it but I would cycle it through so you get an idea where it should lightly rub before I took it loose.

Also as I mentioned, in post #32 if any of that other stuff is moving around due to excessive slop you can get it adjusted to what you think is perfect now and 10 seconds later it will be all out of kilter again when things move due to slop that should not be there. I doubt your bale chamber is rusted out like mine was since your baler looks so good, but I would not be surprised at all if the needle frames have never been reshimmed.

TSC likely has more to pick from in braze types but any general purpose brass based braze should work fine. As others have said, some has the flux on it and some does not so you buy a can of flux separate. I would buy a can of flux regardless as it is handy anyways even with the rods that supposedly have the flux on them as it gives you ability to add more flux if the original burns away before the braze was ready to melt . Beveling a good V-groove all around the crack with a 4.5" grinder (or something similar) will be key to the repair holding.

Appearance of the repair is is secondary as you can make it look good afterwards with the grinder.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Just bought a grinder, brass brazing rods with Flux and some clamps. Be back later with an update.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

At messicks I found the needles for my baler....... They are lised at $402.99  Looks like I'm going to have to fix them. Our attempt at fixing them failed today because we had issues with my dad's torch. My father in law's torch is out of gas. Looks like I'm going to rely on this guy my father in law knows to fix it tomorrow. I then need to install in properly after work and if I have time try to bale if not I need to do it Tuesday.... the day before rain.

I did learn a lesson in this mess..... End it in Sept.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Any chance your Dad or your FIL has an old AC output stick welder (i.e. Lincoln AC225, Miller Thunderbolt, Century, Forney, Montgomery Wards, or even an old Marquette or something similiar?) I would recommend you not try to use a modern inverter welder that output DC only current as you might damage it on the process I m about to tell you about.

If you have an old transformer based stick welder that outputs AC you can use the twin carbon arc torch with it for a free source of intense flame to braze, heat metal for bending, free rusted nuts with or without flame, silver solder, etc. Old timers can even flame fill weld with one but I not quite that good myself. That said I can easily maintain a flame good enough to braze, silver solder, heat metal for bending with and best of all it runs for the mere cost of electricity alone (which is pennies). No gas to buy. No bottles to lease. No dangerous gas bottles like acetelyne to store. No worries of being out of gas on weekends and all welding supply stores are closed.

A Twin Carbon Arc torch is very handy to have but it will NOT cut metal at all but it will do many of the other things that oxy/acet can do and it again operates for nearly free. Closest thing to a free lunch that I have found in my lifetime.

You can make a twin carbon arc torch out of wood and some old jumper cables but the Lincoln or purpose built units are much better but they no longer sell new ones so you have to find a vintage one. I own 2 Lincoln model Twin carbon arc torches and 1 Montgomery Wards twin carbon arc model torch.

Twin Carbon Arc torches are crude in a way but very effective at producing intense heat (potential for even hotter than oxy acetylene is doable if desired). You must wear a welding helmet and cover all exposed skin or you will get sunburnt badly. In essence you strike a flame from one carbon rod to the other and use that flame to do your heating work. It sorta Sounds like a forcefield from a sci-fi movie as you use it.

Do not confuse the twin carbon arc process I am talking about with an Arcair carbon gouge as that is something totally different in every way and is for cutting and gouging not heating and you need a huge welder to run an Arcair but a Twin carbon Arc is easily doable on a little AC buzzbox.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

A couple youtube videos of homemade twin carbon arc torches in use as I was talking about in previous post. (Again the cost to run these things is pennies. Easily the the closest thing I have found to a free lunch amongst all my metal working tools).


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

The needle was nickel plated so should last for a while now... going to have the other one done over the winter to avoid another issue next season. Wish me luck putting it back on after work.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> At messicks I found the needles for my baler....... They are lised at $402.99  Looks like I'm going to have to fix them. Our attempt at fixing them failed today because we had issues with my dad's torch. My father in law's torch is out of gas. Looks like I'm going to rely on this guy my father in law knows to fix it tomorrow. I then need to install in properly after work and if I have time try to bale if not I need to do it Tuesday.... the day before rain.
> 
> I did learn a lesson in this mess..... End it in Sept.


That is where I start each hay season-reminding myself to not even consider cutting hay in October, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Been following that now for over 10 years and it has served me well.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

As you can see the bend is not the same in both needles. We could not get the repaired needle to fit properly. It was sitting to high and was rubbing to hard. I took out the good needle and did a comparison. They do not have the same bend
Apparently something shifted before or during the repair. Taking both of them back to see what he can do. One rain free day left before rain on Wednesday. 
..
The good needle is the bottom one. The top needle archs a little high throwing the tip about an inch to high...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well that stinks. Further readjusting that needle is only going to further increase the "Heat affected zone" next to the weld which is the downside to stick welding any cast iron. That repair will never break in the weld itself again since wonderful nickel rod was at least used. If it breaks again it will be right next to the weld in the now more brittle than the parent metal originally was in the heat affected zone.

Might be a good time to start watching craigslist for a $75 to $125 AC buzzbox like a Lincoln AC225 or something similar. Had you had one of those and a crude twin carbon arc torch you could have brazed it Saturday and had that baler been back in the field 2 hours later and had it all baled.

Brazing does not make the cast brittle either which is why it is the almost can not miss repair on cast.

I have 4 welders, but my lowly Miller Thunderbolt would be the absolute last welder to leave my premises if things get tight. While it is not the best welder I own it is by far the most versatile one I have and I have a whopping $40 bucks tied up in it.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I don't think I can spend $400 for another set of needles since I paid $1,500 for the entire baler. I don't know if the guy who repaired them can fix them so it works. He's going to look at them tomorrow. If he can't I'm done with a bleek future.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I don't think I can spend $400 for another set of needles since I paid $1,500 for the entire baler. I don't know if the guy who repaired them can fix them so it works. He's going to look at them tomorrow. If he can't I'm done with a bleek future.


You already own the baler. It no longer matters what you paid for it. Needles cost what they cost and you're very likely going to need at least one. Have the farmer that rolls your first cutting bale this cutting and spend the winter hunting for used needles.


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Oh I would not give up trying to repair the needle you have. I would have simply done it myself to get in done decently right, in a timely manner, and at low cost to me.

You are actually lucky you tried to do October hay this year. Otherwise that needle would have likely broken during your first cutting next year. Think you would have had 10 days of no rain any other time of year other than now? Think if you would have had a bumper crop of 1st cutting on the ground and that let broke next May or June.


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Do you plan on using this baler next year, and years to come after? If so buy new needles, repair the old ones if you choose to keep for backup. 
It doesn't matter what price you pay for a piece of equipment, it matters if it operates properly when it should.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

MDP-a lot of good responses in the thread. I paid 800 for a NH55 rake and spent at least that in parts over the years using it, mostly in replacing bars and bearings. Then I sold it for 1000 because it was ready to rake and people around me know how I take care of equipment. It's the way it is, with buying old equipment, replacement parts are a bear, but that is what it takes. You have to decide if you are going to live your life with baling wire and band-aids with stuff letting you down when you are trying to beat the rain coming or you are going to accept the business you are in. It is really your choice. If I were you, well first I would have bought a NH273, but that is water over the dam. buy a needle. fix the beast. get it running to spec, repair the broken needle so you won't need one again. I agree with HiTech, get some one to roll it, be done for the season and get your baler fixed. You can test it with unrolling a roll.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I can give the guy a call. I'm worried that he has his round baler cleaned up and parked for the winter. Wont hurt to give it a shot.


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## Leeroy (Aug 19, 2013)

I know you can not get them in time but you may want to look for used needles. eBay far boneyard etc


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I just heard back and the guy who fixed them said he was able to "bend" the needle back into shape. I am not exactly sure how bending cast iron typically goes but I guess I have a chance. I'm going to fly home from work try to get both needles put back on and bale the field. I guess it's good that I have a small field and I condensed the windrows. I just need enough day light to bale and pickup before dark. I guess I could pick them up in the dark if I need to. We have rain coming tomorrow and it's do or die time!


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Update

I installed the new corrected needle with little to no problems. We get about 15 bales done and then the knotter stops tripping. We figure out that I sheared a pin that connects a dead chain to a power chain. Run to the store get 3 replacements and head back. Finish the field except a little left. End up breaking the big chain that I believe drives the wad board. That door that lets you look inside where the wad board is is bulging the door open with hay.... I try to clear it out and under full tension the door slams on my hand. I park the baler in the barn and call it an overdue season....

The bakes were unfortunately very tight and heavy. The hay seemed nice and dry but the dew seemed to be setting. The bales were heavy to me. I had no time to weigh one. They are all in the barn loosely stacked. I'm getting a thermometer and will check temps in a couple days. Good note the needles worked great... Bad note I have a broken chain to fix... Always something to fix...


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## rankrank1 (Mar 30, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your hand. Do remember machinery can maime, amputate, or even kill.

If that knotter pin you refer to is the knotter shear bolt then absolutely no excuse for not having those on hand already. One that is a special bolt that you need to get from New Holland. Secondly you lost valuable time going to store and returning. That time saved might have allowed you to beat the dew. Dewy bales are heavy as are otherwise perfectly dry bales that are left on the gound too long to soak up dew from the ground like a sponge. Having the proper shear bolts (i.e. flywheel, knotter, and feeder carriage) was discussed in several of you past threads by numerous people plus your book covers that too.

As for the future and chains: I always keep 1 brand new masterlink of each chain size used on a baler as a minimum. My baler has 3 different chain sizes used on it so like $6 total to have 1 of each masterlink size - these are dirt cheap, I also keep any old worn out chains I replace along with that old masterlink on the old chain. Very easy to repair a chain or even section in a larger piece of mangled chain with that 4.5" grinder you bought the other day along with a pin punch and hammer. No special chain breaker tool needed at all with a 4.5" grinder and you back in business in 15 minutes tops. Chains with multiple masterlinks in them work just fine.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

My manual was destroyed in the rain so I do not have that to refer to at the time being. I appreciate all of the advice but seeing since this is my first season baling it is not possible for me to heed 100% of the advice given. Some lessons are learned the hard way. I am sure I'll learn more lessons the hard way next season just hopefully less. Once I get another manual I plan on stocking up on parts so that I don't run into this issue again. I've asked many many many questions and I've gotten many many many answers. At times it's very overwhelming to keep everything straight while sill trying to comprehend everything myself.

I did not get a special bolt I got a regular hex head from the hardware store. I'll have to investigate that before next season to be sure I have a proper bolt in there. I now have a chain to fix or replace and to start cleaning her up before snow flys.

Personally I'm glad the needle situation worked out and that I got the hay off the field.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I did not get a special bolt I got a regular hex head from the hardware store.


I would remove that bolt now, while it is still 'fresh' in your mind. Shear bolts are special for a reason (IMHO). The bolt you substituted could cause a lot of damage in the future. :angry: You may have been lucky, using a off the shelf hardware bolt, THIS TIME.

You may have learned something regarding baling more moist hay, this is where (in my case anyhow), I would have loosen the tension on the bale chamber (you mentioned 'tight; bales, along with heavy). IMHO, one of the reasons for tighter bale, is the plunger has to work harder to press heavier material through the bale chamber. Hence, more pressure, tighter bales. As you learn your baler,stop and check your hay as you are baling. You may find that you tighten the tension some after a while, as hay gets drier. Then you may loosen it again towards nightfall (here in Michigan) as the dew comes on OR when starting baling again the next day.

An advantage of pulling a wagon behind the old square baler loading those idiot bricks, is that there is someone monitoring the tightness of the bales (the idiot stacking) all the time. When baling on the ground (as you are), get off the tractor now and then and check a couple of bales. Maybe even do a quick look about around the baler for possible problems, take a drink of lemonade and get back at it.

It appears your lesson and class is now done for the year as far as cutting, raking and baling. But it is far from over, if you expect next year's lesson plan to go easier. Hit the books (owners manual & parts catalog), while getting some hands-on equipment maintenance lessons done (try not to bust too many knuckles), DO NOT FORGET to stock up on spare parts.

You may even want to re-read your posts and answer you got this year (a treasure trove worth of advice and knowledge in my mind).

Howard Buffet has a book out called something like '40 Seasons', has to do with all of us have that many seasons to do things in our lives. You just got your first season under your belt, if you are anything like me, you will learn each year, something new. Look forward to your 'next' year as you build upon your knowledge base.

Larry


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I agree with Larry, get that bolt out of there now before you forget. And get NH shear pins from your dealer, not generic ones. I keep a bag of 5 feeder shear pins, 5 knotter shear pins and 10 flywheel shear pins in the baler at all times. Only broke one knotter shear pin in about 40-50,000 bales, actually it was two, one for reasons I was never able to figure out, one because the knotter jumped time. Maybe 4 feeder pins but dozens of flywheel pins. Usually it is because I hit a slug at too low rpms or the hay is too tough. One immediately correctable (stop baling) the other just a mistake to not repeat.

Also, did you make sure your knotters were in time when you replaced the bolt? Just wondering if that had something to do with breaking the chain. Procedure is in the book for timing, same for feeder mechanism on newer balers, not sure how yours works or if there was a separate shear pin


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

My manual was destroyed during a frantic get the hay to the barn before it rains situation. I did not intentionally time the knotters or needles. The only thing I did was run it through 4-5 manual cycles to make sure everything cleared and was positioned correctly. It's possible the bolt I put in contributed to the chain breaking. I parked the baler in the barn and had to pick up bales immediately. I did not further investigate the chain situation. I am going to replace the manual and stock up on the necessary parts. I am taking a few weeks off without thinking about hay or equipment. I'll get back to it soon enough. I have plenty of work to do on the baler to prepare for 1st cutting. I'll also study previous posts as was mentioned by Larry. I plan on inspecting all areas/parts and doing some preventative maintenance. I've learned a lot this year... Definitely some of it the hard way. I am convinced that most of you guys know your stuff. Almost every time I am advised of something it is spot on. Next year will be better! And that is exciting.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

Just to clarify. The bolt I sheared connects a dead chain pulley to a chain pulley that has power. I could be wrong but I don't think that has anything to do with the knotter... The needles stopped tripping once the bolt sheared. When we put the hex head bolt in the chain started spinning and the needles tripped.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Knotters are chain driven, and the needles are attached to the knotter stack. Timing MUST be checked when replacing chains. Methinks you got lucky not swiping your needles off again....

I know it seems like baling hay is the last thing you want to think of, but fix it while it's fresh in your mind. You will be much happier come next hay season.

Oh, and a chain pulley is called a "sprocket" That'll help the parts guys at the dealer when you call for parts.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

... I'm never that lucky... And thanks for the sprocket terminology. I knew pulley wasn't correct but it'd get my point across. Is running it in manual the best way to check timing? I ran it through several manual cycles before turning on the baler. I should have caught a timing issue while running it in manual correct?


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

It says 5/16"x2" machine bolt in the knotter drive sprocket. Which is exactly what we replaced. I only need a special shear bolt in the fly wheel. Is the bolt I used or for how I used it?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

There are grades of bolts. 2,5 and 8. Grade 5 is standard hardware bolt. 8 is used in high stress applications, and 2, which is known as a butter bolt. Very soft, basically used in sheet metal applications and light duty loads. How many marks are on the head of the bolt? A grade 2 will have no markings, 5 will have 3 lines on it, and 8 acres will have 5 or 6 marks on the head, can't remember which.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I would ask for the right bolt for that application for that baler model at your NH dealer.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'll get what I need from the dealership but I was just curious if what I put in had anything to do with the chain breaking. I think it was the chain the powered the wad board. I'll have to investigate this weekend.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I am guessing something is slightly out of time. It only takes a little to mess up a lot. Personal experience on that one.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I finished the field after putting in the new bolt and had no issues... 30 squares later is when the chain broke. So it did fine for a bit. I'd think if it was timing it would have happened right away.


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## thendrix (May 14, 2015)

Pull the bolt you put in and look for damage or wear. That will give you an idea if the bolt caused it or just bad luck


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm at the new holland online parts store and I looked up my unit. Under knotter drive it has the exploded parts diagram. I see number (14) which is the shear pin that connects the 2 sprockets. It says procure locally - machine, square head 5/15" x 2" which is what I got. I guess I'll check the head to see if it has a number on it... but the manual does not specify anything in regards to strength of bolt. I'll check the bolt like was suggested but I'm starting to the the two are unrelated.


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I found my answer. The bolt I put in is more than likely good. I'll check the hardness number on the top but it says a common soft bolt is what I need. The only special bolt I need is for the flywheel.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> I found my answer. The bolt I put in is more than likely good. I'll check the hardness number on the top but it says a common soft bolt is what I need. The only special bolt I need is for the flywheel.


Ah, the magic manual. I have to admit, I seem to learn (or relearn) reading the manual again. And I also have to admit, parts catalogs are handing for dismantling / putting back together often. Showing you the order parts go in my limited experience.

Larry


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## MyDaughtersPony (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm in the process of making a list of the backup/replacement parts I need. I'm determined to be more prepared for break downs next year.


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## thendrix (May 14, 2015)

I commend you for being more ready but I warn you, you'll probably see the uncommon break downs if you're ready for the common ones. Same way in chicken farming. I came up with a couple of extra feed line transmissions and asked my father in law if he wanted them. He said he'd never had to replace one in 30 years so he didn't need it. Fast forward a few months. I'm running the farm and had been here about 2 weeks. Guess what broke.


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## luke strawwalker (Jul 31, 2014)

MyDaughtersPony said:


> (snip)... Always something to fix...


Yep, welcome to the hay (or farming) business...

ESPECIALLY with older equipment... 

Don't worry it gets (a little) easier as you learn more and gain more experience... definitely a learning curve to it, with anything and any piece of equipment.

Later and good luck! OL J R


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