# Timothy and Orchard Grass in North Carolina



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I need some advice on what to do. Last fall I no tilled timothy and orchard grass mixed hay. I planted
Kootenai timothy and both Athos and Intensiv orchard grass to help shrink the maturity difference in the two grasses. Thank you Vol for your help last year. It seemed like I had decent germination but when spring came I realized that one field almost no orchard grass was there and that its all timothy. I got to make 600 bales of beautifull timothy hay. It was the best looking field anywhere around my area had it sold before I even cut. The problem was that I had not planted enough timothy for a pure stand and it was fairly thin and weeds started coming after first cut. I tried spraying Crossbow herbicde at a heavy rate to kill the broadleaf weeds especially horsenettle but it also killed a large portion of the timothy so I ended up spraying the whole thing with roundup. The other field I planted the broadleaf weeds and johnson grass came back so thick it choked the little bit of timothy that came up out. Did not even take first cut off that field just burned it down with roundup. The fields I plan on planting this fall have been killed with roundup and had lime applied last week. I think I have decided to try and do one field of pure timothy because I have one customer that is hooked on what I got this year and one field of pure orchard grass. My question is what should I do now. I really feel like I should work the ground before planting. What would be the best way to do this moldboard plow and disc or run a offset disc harrow and follow up with a finishing disc? What would be the best way to plant, I have a john deere fbb grain drill with a small seed box or should I broadcast? When would be the ideal time to plant? What would be the best varieties? I greatly appreciate all help as I really do not know what to do. I am just tired of putting up fescue and crap hay that everyone and there brother makes around here and would like to grow a premium product. Thank you for all of your help.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline, sorry to hear of your troubles. You need to eliminate the J. grass as it will be a annual pest until you do. If you are having trouble growing orchard grass you may want to try very tough varieties like Benchmark Plus Orchard grass. It is extremely persistant and even can be grazed. It may survive a weed invasion where other varieties have it tougher. The trouble with planting pure TImothy stands this far South is that we typically only get one cutiing because of the heat and then you have nothing but weeds after the first cutting as the Timothy goes dormant. You probably need to plant about 15 pounds of orchard grass and 5 pounds of timothy per acre to get your stand to persist. The timothy can out compete the orchard grass when it is getting established if you plant too much timothy.....that is what probably happened to you.

You could use a moldboard plow and turn everyting over since you are plagued with broadleaf weeds, but you will still need to spray 2-4d next spring 1-2 pints per acre when daytime temps in the 60's as you for sure will stir up some weed seeds.

You probably need to get a weed wiper for the johnson grass so that when it shoots up about 16 inches or so, you can go over it and kill it with glyphosate before it shades out the new grass. This will have to be done for several years to get good control if you have a heavy infestation.

The horsenettle is also very persistant and you will need to use something with residual like grazon p&d for 2-3 years at 3-4 pints per acre...probably sometime in July and before it starts to bloom is supposedly best.

If your fields are smooth you could rent a rotary tiller that was at least 6 foot wide and go over your fields and that would make a excellent seedbed.

With your weed and johnson problems, you will have to stay on top of them to keep your grasses.

Also, the drought on this side of the Smokies was very bad this year and hurt new stands of grass very badly....I also lost about 40% of a new stand during our 2nd dry period of the summer....did you have drought in your area. If so that probably was another strike against your new stand of grass.

Right now is a excellent time to plant.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, thank you for your help. Last year I planted 10 pounds timothy and 15 pounds orchard grass I will try the 5 pounds of timothy 15 pounds orchard grass this year. I think part of the trouble was that crazy no till drill I rented last year and that is why I bought the john deere conventional drill I have now. Should I try the timothy in the small seed box and the orchard in the main box or mix them together in the small seed box? I also want to plant a field of pure orchard grass what seeding rates would you reccommend for that? I would like to start working ground as soon as it dries up from all of this rain we got. If I moldboard plow will the soil have time to melt down enough before planting? I assume that I need to run a finishing disc harrow after plowing and before planting. I do have a 6 foot roto tiller that I use in the garden but my fields are not real level. I also have a heavy duty Taylor Way offset disc harrow did not know if that would be better than the moldboard plow. My plow is a MF model 82 with 4 16 inch bottoms. I agree that I need a weed wiper, what brand do you recommend? The field that has a bad johnson grass infestation I am going to plant oats in until I get it under control. The fields that the timothy and orchard grass are going in just has patches of johnson grass. In these fields the ground has been worked in over 20 years. I am sorry to hear that you lost your stand of grass also. We really did not have an overly dry summer except for about 3 weeks in june right after I baled the timothy we had over 100 degree temps and no rain. We had a downright wet july but it got dry again the past few weeks. Thank You.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline,

Split the seed, Timothy in the small seed box and Orchard in the large.

For pure stands of Orchard you need at least 20 pounds per acre.

If you plow you will have to work it down.

As far as weed wipers, you can get info from your local NRCS office or Ag Extension office on building your own which will save you quite alot, or check with manufacturers like Smucker Mfg. for wipers.

Be sure and use a hardy(persistant) variety of Orchard grass as these dry years seem to run in groups.

Good Luck

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, would you suggest drilling the field twice once north and south and once east and west? If so should I buy twice as much seed or split the original amount between the two drillings. I do not mind the extra work just want to do the best thing possible but I do not want to over seed. What do you think would be the best way to work the ground? I have never worked ground for planting hay before. Do I need to use a cultipacker if so should I do it before or after I drill. What variety of orchard grass should I use. I would really like to stay with the late maturing European varieties. How long do I have before it is past ideal planting dates? Thank You.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline, cross drilling is very good and I would just split the seed in half. How you work the ground is up to you but like I said before you cannot hardly beat using a roto-tiller for making a seed bed. I usually till my ground about 2 1/2 mph or so. Its slow but makes a beautiful seed bed. You will need a cultipacker to firm with after you work the ground. Ground needs to be very firm for seed contact before planting. I have never used a JD drill for grass seed before so I am not sure what to tell you, but I am sure you can find someone locally who is familiar with your model of drill.

Like i said earlier I would use Benchmark plus as it is similar to euro varieties as it matures later but is more adaptive to the U.S. and is very persistant and that is probably the most important requirement here in the mid-south due to heat and potential drought. Farmers co-ops carry it here and I believe it is a Allied seed. You also might consider Haymaster variety of orchard....also very persistant and matures later.

Regards, Mike


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Cline, One thing you may want to be sure of, is that you get the right amount of seed down. I think most? Benchmark OG has a coating on it and is only about 1/2 the actual seed in the bag. I use WP 300 when I plant OG which is pure seed. Be sure to read the labe. Here in Va., I plant 20# to the acre total. That would be 10# each way. Remember that OG and Timothy will go Dormant here a lot of the times and looks like it died. I would not use Crossbow on any fields. As Mike said, get you a good weedwiper and stay on top of the JG and horsenettle and be patient with your stand. Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, would I need to plow the ground before roto tilling? The roto tiller I have does not take the ground very good unless it has been previously been loosened in some way. Do I need to cultipack after drilling also as the small seed box on the JD drill just dribbles the seed on the ground benind the discs. Also how long do I have before it is too late to ideally plant. NDVA HAYMAN, why do you not recommend using crossbow on any fields? How do I tell if the grass is dormant and not dead?


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## NDVA HAYMAN (Nov 24, 2009)

Cline, We use Crossbow mainly for cleaning up fencerows. It's more expensive here than 24-D. I would not have thought that the Crossbow would have killed your grass. It will not kill the grass in our fencerows. That's why I think your grass went dormant and was not dead. We only get 1 cutting of timothy here. After you cut, it goes dormant and then the weeds come. Manage the weeds by chemicals or clipping. Mike


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline, with my rototiller I do not do anything other than run it over the ground. It is set to till 3 inches deep which allows for a nice smooth and clean seed bed but the seed bed firms up nicely and quickly because of the shallow depth with a cultipacker. Also saves in fuel as after I till it I pull the cultipacker over it once then pull the seeder over it. Probably would be a good idea with your drill to pull a cultipacker afterward, especially if you are seeing alot of seed on top of the ground. Ground needs to be firm again before seeding.

Regards, Mike


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol, what brand of roto tiller do you have? I may be interested in buying one because the one I have just rides on top of the ground and does not even go an inch deep unless the ground has been previously loosened in some way. Thanks


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

FarmerCline said:


> Vol, what brand of roto tiller do you have? I may be interested in buying one because the one I have just rides on top of the ground and does not even go an inch deep unless the ground has been previously loosened in some way. Thanks


I have a Curtis....it has been decent. Only trouble I had was breaking the Italian drive chain on ocassion....replaced with american chain size 100.....good now. There are other makers out there and several are U.S. made and that is probably what I would buy. I really love to use them for planting grasses. Just get a heavy duty one and they will weigh plenty to where they won't dance on a hard pack surface. I saw a eight footer that picked my interest...it was U.S. built. I will try to find the info and post it on the U.S. made tillers.

Regards, Mike


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