# Picloram+D also know as Grazon P+D??



## Nate926

Planted 25 acres of orchard grass last August and now have a awesome stand, but of course I gotta spray it. Dead nettle is my main weed, but had some pig weed in it last year. After researching picloram+d also known as grazon p+d it seems to be a lot more effective on dead nettle and the other few weeds I have in the stand. Also read it has a long residual so I'm hoping what pig weed I may still have will be controlled. What's everybodys thoughts on it? Will it harm first year grass at all? Right now it's 8-12" tall and growing beautifully.


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## Tater Salad

Good topic , I have alfalfa/orchard mix and I've got some milkweed coming in it...Grazon is pretty harsh ?..Come on "Vol" help us out !!


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## TJH

Picloram is a very strong(woody species) brush killer, if I remember correctly it's the same class as Tordon, in fact it can be mixed with Remedy and diesel as the carrier to kill trees, I've done that. it has a 6 month waiting period for any kind of broadleaf planting such as clover and alfalfa ect. and do believe around a month haying restriction. it's also a restricted use pesticide, here you need a license to buy it. Livestock will excrete it in their urine to the extent it will kill wanted crop (clover etc.) where they urinate. If you sell hay you are required to tell said buyer that the crop has been sprayed with it. it's very potent stuff. The plus D = 2,4,D. it will give you season long control, but would be very cautious on new plantings.


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## Vol

Deadnettle will soon be gone....too late for control at this stage. Spray with a pre-emergent in the fall. Best thing for pig-weed in a grass stand is nitrogen and thick grass....if you still have it emeging spray with 2-4d when the weed is less than 4 inches tall and use 2 pints per acre and plenty of surfactant. So what this means is pay close attention to your grass AFTER you remove the first cutting.....scout once a week on foot...when you first see pig it's time to get the sprayer out.

Regards, Mike


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## Vol

Milkweed is a toughie....there is no good way to get rid of it other than very harsh chemicals OR to be patient and do a annual spray with 2-4d....it takes several years with 2-4d but at least it won't mature and go to seed. You will kill the plant back with 2-4d but it will come back late summer. 2-4d is not as pricey so a persistent attack 1-2 times a year is probably the best way to combat it.

Regards, Mike


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## Nate926

Vol I sure do appreciate it!! So 2 pints per acre how much surfactant per 20 gallons? That grass is super thick! Honestly I can't believe the dead nettle was able to come in, but nothing suprises me anymore lol. What pre emergent would you use? Yeah grazon sounds like some serious stuff, I do have my restricted chemical liscense, so I will keep grazon on the list for the future


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## Hayman1

Nate- surmount will work on milkweed but I don't know if it is safe on a new stand. Might have to do two years in a row. as soon after first cutting is off that you can see weeds coming, say 2-3 weeks. Gets most of the pesky summer broad leaved weeds-, thistle, nettle hemp dogbane and milkweed. I would be using it on my new og as well but have to overseed to fill in some spots so it will be on the calendar next year.


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## Vol

Nate926 said:


> So 2 pints per acre how much surfactant per 20 gallons?


Typically 1 quart per 100 gallons of mix.

Regards, Mike


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## endrow

Grazon Pand D has been a nightmare in some areas . Most of those strong residual Woody herbicides are a godsend if you need them but you want to be sure because they really weaken the native grasses and then once you've used them you can't plant anything back for about a year. I was at agrowers meeting Growers Meeting and a guy from Dow Chemical said himself that all those strong residual prodicts like grazon the label says for range land and permanent pasture only. They have their place but I would not want to spray a large portion of my acreage with these products at one shot.


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## endrow

http://extension.psu.edu/agronomy-guide/pm/tables/table-2-6-8


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## Tater Salad

Your All gentlemen and scholars !! Thankyou !.......I've only got about a 1/4 acre square of where the MW is...which is nothin to whine about , but those roots will cause troubles later....Think I'll just chisel it a few times this season n stop the roots...not worth the chem risk...I thought that picloram/grazon was nasty stuff , couldn't remember why.....tordon ...woof !!


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## Nate926

Besides the fact that there you have to tell the owner that you sold the hay to about grazon it does seem like a God sent. I won't be tearing my orchard grass up for awhile I hope and I really like the fact that I might not have to spray more than once a year. Will I use it now no, as I get more acreage and have less time to spray then yes it may become a possibility again.


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## Bonfire

Aminopyralid in the mix is another option. Strong residual. No license needed. Let the buyer know.


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## BCRick

Grazon, and about 5 others I can think of, are purposely designed to have a three year residual to kill seeds the following two years. Because of the designed residual it is very expensive to use, about $40 cdn an acre up here. Also if you use the manure from animals who eat forage from Grazon sprayed fields, seen effect last 5 years, in your garden all your broad leaf plants will be stunted and deformed. There are plenty of products out there cheaper to use over a three year period and do not leave residual.

Time of year you spray is everything.

I spray thistle, deep rooted stuff, perennials, in the fall when plants are busy storing energy deep in their roots. Look at it this way - in the spring everything is being pushed or sucked up from the roots to get the plant growing, you can't get anything down into the root. During the summer you can top kill but won't kill the roots, the plant is simply taking everything it needs and stores little. The fall is when these plants are sucking everything they can deep down into their roots to store for survival and spring emergence. That's the time to kill the nasty stuff, every inch of root dies, and that's the only way to get rid of them, fall spraying.

BCRick


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## Hayman1

Time of year you spray is everything.

I spray thistle, deep rooted stuff, perennials, in the fall when plants are busy storing energy deep in their roots. Look at it this way - in the spring everything is being pushed or sucked up from the roots to get the plant growing, you can't get anything down into the root. During the summer you can top kill but won't kill the roots, the plant is simply taking everything it needs and stores little. The fall is when these plants are sucking everything they can deep down into their roots to store for survival and spring emergence. That's the time to kill the nasty stuff, every inch of root dies, and that's the only way to get rid of them, fall spraying.

BC Rick- nicely put and dead on. Hard to remember the old push down pull up theory when you ar looking at a bunch of greasy weeds in your prime hay. Rick


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## rjmoses

Two cures for milkweed and thistles: Hand labor and good neighbors.

I keep very close watch on those little darlings on all of my ground. A good machete works well. Cut the heads off, throw them in the compost pile; cut out the rest of plant and dump it. I've found that thistles will often continue to go seed even after being sprayed or chopped out; that's why the heads go in the compost pile.

The hand labor allows me to practice being an American Ninja Farmer. Ennnrow-Ki (supposed to sound like Bruce Lee)

Ralph


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## BCRick

Killing weeds is a three year program. It can start in the fall or late spring, I say late spring because to get on MY fields in early spring is a disaster, I won't do it.

Here's my perennial plan of attack:

When you can get on your fields (talking only hay - OG & Tim) in the spring spray with the intention to get leaf curl, wilt and blackened edges. This will stop the plant from setting seed, if it does set seed it isn't viable. Then fall spray with the intention to kill deep down into the roots.

Now, for the next two years, your working on your soil's seed bank.

In the spring seeds will germinate. Top kill and again fall spray. Do this one more time.

Now there are zero perennials left, annuals are gone as well.

Do spike harrowing, aerating, dormant fall seeding, fertilizing, all in the fall. Spot spraying can be done spring/fall a long as you understand what you are trying to accomplish.

An aggressive fertilizing plan based on fall soil tests, plus an annual dormant seeding program will ensure weeds are, in the future, easily manageable.

That's what I do, I find my fields respond well and seem to get an earlier start. Of course my fields, lack of slope, and sandy loam/clay soil, respond well to fall fert.

BCRick


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## slowzuki

Aminopyrolid (Milestone)

Triclyopyr (Garlon)

Both have restrictions due to manure carry over. Both control woody stuff and broadleaves really well. Priced a 2.5 gallon jug of Milestone yesterday - 2100$ but the application rate is very low. Garlon is expensive up here too, 770$ per 2.5 gallon jug.

Battling smooth bedstraw and milkweed.


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