# 90 HP-100 HP Utility Tractor - JD 5090E, Kubota M5-091, C-IH Farmall 90C



## acarpenter

Looking at getting a new-to-me 90-100 HP (75-80 PTO HP) hay tractor with cab, 4x4, & loader and wanted to see what was Hay Talk approved these days. Trying to stay within a couple of years old and maybe get something with some warranty. Depending on the discounts available, may end up going new.

Chores on the farm will include:

1. Running mounted 8 ft disc mower (hoping to upgrade to 9 ft next year)

2. Round Baler - NH 644 4x5 baler

3. Square Baler - Case-IH SB541 w/ Kuhns accumulator

4. Kuhns 510F square bale grapple (10 bale flat)

5. Bush Hog BH27 Rotary Cutter

Close by, I've got good John Deere, New Holland, and Kubota/Case-IH dealers. I've dealt with all of them in the past and don't really have a preference:

1. 2019 JD 5090E - Local dealer has some rental returns with less than 10 hours on them. Doesn't have a loader, but is loader ready

2. Kubota M5-091

3. Case-IH Farmall 90C

4. New Holland T4-90 (or T4-100) is also on the list (but I think those are called Powerstars now).

I went into this liking the Kubota, but when I compared it to the others, it was a LOT lighter. Surprisingly, the value-minded 5090E is the heaviest of the models listed above.

I'm mostly worried about the square baler; it will push around my JD 4020 & A-C 190XT in thick hay. I'm keeping the 4020 w/ loader so I can use it on the sq baler & grapple, if I had to. I'm probably going to get rid of the 190XT as part of this deal. I know I am downsizing, but the AC is honestly a little bulky and I would actually like a move to a more utility-sized tractor so I won't tear up the countryside during the winter. Any thoughts on any of these models? Am I nuts for considering the 5090E?


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## slowzuki

I’m not a fan of the T4 unless they have fixed some stuff. Nice tractor when working but early ones had lots of broken control cables and wiring issues. Friends spent as much time broken as running the first couple of years. Sent him an old TL or something to run while they fixed it. He ended up telling them to keep it the maybe 10th time they took it back after it quit moving.


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## slowzuki

Kubota 7000 lbs and the JD 8000 lbs, I wouldn’t get too hung up over that if you prefer dealers or one tractor over the other. Our neighbours have an M5-111 cab etc they got last year w cast wheels and loader. Works well, he’s been using my offset disc with it. Another friend has the 100 hp M series JD with auto steer on it, been a really good tractor too after they fixed the dragging brakes. I couldn’t tell what you give up on the E from an M.


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## somedevildawg

I would consider the Deere but I would rather have the M...does it have one or two SCV? Make sure it not only has the mid-mount hydraulics for loader but also the left hand reverser....it's not really "loader ready" unless it has LHR, IMO 
I haven't heard anything bad about the newer ones like in the pic....they did have some issues with the earlier ones that were tier 4....
The Kubota is a good tractor but it's not a Deere...there's a reason why it's lighter, it's build is lighter. That's good in some instances but bad in others. Pro's and Con's to both... I haven't had anything bad out of Kubota, they make very good equipment but make no mistake they aren't built as good as the Deere....they also aren't priced out of sight like the Deere. Again there are those Pro's and Con's. I suppose it would come down to price and resell value for me....the Deere is probably the best of the bunch in my opin but any of them would probably fit the bill....that NH doesn't have the smurf blue seats does it? That alone would be a deal breaker for me  good luck with your decision, tell the dealer you want to rent one for a week and if you want it, take the rental off of the purchase price, if not pay the rental and move on....I've rented several vehicles before I bit the bullet on buying one. Hth


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## Hayman1

Another vote for the M series LFR a definite requirement. I am pulling what you are except I have a kicker and sometime 160+ bales pushing on me. Hasn't been an issue for my 6115M was slightly more for my previous JD6100D 2wd with 38 rears


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## JD3430

I'd get the John Deere. The green paint has a way of "legitimizing" you as a real farmer. 
You'll get tired of being called a "Kubota farmer" if you buy a Kubota. 
Id be looking at Fendt.  They blow everyone away. I mentioned Fendt because we have some guys with Nancy Pelosi wealth. :lol:

But seriously, just get the tractor that suits your needs best. Brand loyalty is so stupid, but some people live their lives to buy every tractor and attachment the same color just so it looks good. Lol

There are 2 very large operators in my area that would tease me for not owning Deere and now guess what? They own Fendt and AGCO brands. One keeps texting me about "how much do you like your Kubota"......Now I tease them "what happened to your Deere God equipment?"  
But seriously,
Someone mentioned weight, which is important. Let's say you want your final tractor weight to be 8000lbs. Let's say tractor X weighs 7000lb and costs 70k and tractor Y weights 8000lbs and costs 80k. If final desired weight is 8k, purty sure it wouldn't take a genius to understand you can add cast rims and wheel weights for $1/pound or a front weight rack to tractor X for $2000 to equal tractor Y's weight, but you're $8,000 ahead.
Now if you need a 11,000lb tractor, probably none of them are heavy enough and you need to step up in size across the board. 
For baling and loader work, I like the best transmission set up. It's essential to get the right speed. If a 16 or 24 speed is available, I'd want that over a 12 speed. Are all transmissions hydraulic reverser type or a dry clutch? What transmission is best suited for you? Do you do a lot of loader work?

Then there's the dealer. Do your homework and investigate the dealers reputation for service and parts. In my little fly-over town, the oldest, dirtiest most outdated looking dealer has the best most caring service people and the biggest shiniest dealer is a box full of jerks. 
Bottom line, take out a piece of paper and write down what features YOU really need, the price of each, and investigate the dealer. All the brands you listed are fine. Deere is probably universally the most desired and recognized of all tractors. Most everyone thinks they're still "Murrican made", too.  
Good luck and no matter what brand you buy, they're all really good and you won't go wrong.


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## r82230

slowzuki said:


> I'm not a fan of the T4 unless they have fixed some stuff.


I'd look at the T5 verses T4, used to be basically same tractor, just heavier built.



somedevildawg said:


> does it have one or two SCV? Make sure it not only has the mid-mount hydraulics for loader but also the left hand reverser....it's not really "loader ready" unless it has LHR, IMO
> 
> that NH doesn't have the smurf blue seats does it? That alone would be a deal breaker for me


At a minimum 2 (if not 3) SCVs, mid-mount hy, loader ready, left hand reverses AND at least 16 (if not 24+) speed tranny, or CVT. I'm also a fan of the hi-visibly cabs for loader work, beats bending your neck while laying on the steer wheel so much.

Now, as far as the smurf seats, IDK, some women like the tractor seats to match your pretty blue eyes (at least in MY case ). Seems to make some guys a little jealous even. 

As far as tractor weight, JD hit the nail on the head, ballast can be added (or removed if not needed for some operations for that matter). And look at AGCO and other colors (your dealer support would be highly involved in this situation).

Larry


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## acarpenter

Thanks for the comments, gang. The 5090E's each have 24 speeds with reversers in them. However, I'm doing everything now with a 4020 synchro & AC190XT so I'm used to only having 8 speeds! I understand about adding weight, but I'd probably add some weights to the wheels on the JD, too, so there is still a delta. I'm a Kubota fan so I'm not trying to bash them! I ran by there this weekend and they had an M5-111 on the lot. It looked very nice.


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## slowzuki

Someone should mention it, coming from an older tractor, strongly consider clean used mid-2000’s tractors without all the emissions stuff. They are getting better all the time making the emissions systems reliable but it’s still more stuff to go wrong.


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## Trillium Farm

I'm with JD3430 if you're looking at JD take a good look at Fendt, I'd take the latter over the former any day! Also as he said you can add weight if needed and IMO unless you're tilling the Kubota's weight won't be a problem.


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## acarpenter

slowzuki said:


> Someone should mention it, coming from an older tractor, strongly consider clean used mid-2000's tractors without all the emissions stuff. They are getting better all the time making the emissions systems reliable but it's still more stuff to go wrong.


This is actually exactly where I started. Just having a cab will be an improvement for me!

Bad part is by the time I find one with less than 2000 hours, I might as well buy a new(er) one that still has some warranty. I know that is an indicator of how much simpler the older ones are though. I am hoping that the reliability in the Tier IV final emissions systems has gotten better in the last couple of years.


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## Trillium Farm

acarpenter said:


> This is actually exactly where I started. Just having a cab will be an improvement for me!
> 
> Bad part is by the time I find one with less than 2000 hours, I might as well buy a new(er) one that still has some warranty. I know that is an indicator of how much simpler the older ones are though. I am hoping that the reliability in the Tier IV final emissions systems has gotten better in the last couple of years.


Just go by the book, many of the problems you read in all forums are self inflicted. 20+ years ago one could "tinker" now those days are gone! Even for my car I bough an OBD ll to keep up with what's going on with my vehicle. Always use the best oils & fluids saving cents will cost you $$, maybe not always, but 90% of the time, well at least that has been my experience in life.


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## hog987

I haveva kubota m8560. The earlier version of what your looking at. With the bucket, loader, and rear weights it is 11500 pounds. No fluid in any tires. Its easy to add weight.


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## JD3430

Only think I dislike about the Kubota M is it has the smaller 3.8L motor. I think it's fine, but prefer the Kubotas with the 6.1L.


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## somedevildawg

Here ya go...3 scv 154hrs, looks brand new 60k....I’d jump on that one in a heartbeat if I was looking for one. I like helping other folks spend their hard earned $ tho.....


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## Stxpecans123

I got a 5100e with h240 loader 3rd function skid steer attach.. 2017 model. In like new shape no problems other than I out 1000 hrs on it so far. Really want to move up. I would let it go for 44k. Was 62ish new.

I think it still has a power train warranty for a couple of years. Has new front tires, Firestone sat2's. 
I want to move up to a 6140m. The 5100e has been good just need a bigger tractor.

There is a nice new Holland t7060 in Texas asking 55k.
And a nice maxxium 140 pro in Oklahoma asking 61k. Both on tractor house. Much much much more tractor than what you posted.

As being someone who has owned both a 5e and 5m other than the seat not much difference. And my 5m had issues with the hi/lo powershift that cost $$$$. Hydralics are the same, cab basicly the same. But you do get a slightly better seat. I think the 3 point is stronger on a 5m but I never maxed out a 5e so I would say that is moot. I think you get a 36 gallon fuel tank over a 30 gallon. Either way you can't go all day. 5m you still don't get flow control, or atleast mine didn't have it and my dealer said it wasn't an option. I think the rear end in a 5m is a little bigger but with fwa, just engaged it when pulling hard and you will run out of hp before you tear up the rear end. Also a 2016 or newer 5e will be assembled in Georgia and have a newer cab like a 5m.


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## aggienjaneer

I'm no fan of the E series of John Deere above 75 hp. They have to many issues when you need them, in my experience. And speaking of power and weight, one of my favorite tractors was a 7410 John Deere with self leveling loader (loved it, but a real blinder at night and hard to see around sometimes), but the Valtra we had at the same time would out perform the JD in every way but comfort and they were supposedly the same hp. At the time we were also running a 5240 CaseIH that we used to do almost all of the baling with and it would out turn the John Deere and was easier to see the implement even though the seat didn't swivel around like in the Deere. Obviously none of those were these new models and I've only dealt with a few new John Deere's but they are right about going with the M series if you go Deere for the size your talking and they're also right you can't really go wrong with Kubota or CaseIH really, but I have heard a lot of negatives on New Holland around this size from friends, one traded because he was having trouble with his couple of years old New Holland and upgraded to a 100 hp and the PTO wouldn't even come on when he first hooked it up to his baler.


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## MScowman

I have a 2013 pre emissions 5093e, never any trouble, except my dad uses it a lot and he, well let's just say he's not as particular as I am. I'll leave it at that.


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## acarpenter

Thanks for all the comments, guys. I actually ended up with a new JD5100E that was delivered yesterday. Managed to move about 85 round bales with it late in the day with no problems. Had to leave it out last night so I'm hoping the Owl will scare off all the birds to keep it clean for at least one day!


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## BisonMan

I'm looking at a 5090E with a cab and a loader at auction tomorrow. Its an online auction so early bids seem really low.

I was comparing it against a 2016 5085E with a loader down the road. This one is in mint shape, 6 hours on it , so I'm sure itll have a reserve and there won't be any steals.

This auction has alot of JDs that are very lightly used that have came back from a previous auction. Alot of nice tractors barely used aren't getting bought. The tip I had from a friend is that the more expensive equipment in my area is going for better value than the old stuff.

Also bidding on a massey 165 with a loader as a backup. Not the same class but my family has one that's on its last legs so I could swap parts perhaps.


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## Vol

BisonMan said:


> I'm looking at a 5090E with a cab and a loader at auction tomorrow. Its an online auction so early bids seem really low.


Its all about the last 2 minutes. No need to bid before then as that is all that really matters. I never understood why anyone would want to bid earlier and just run the bid up for no gain.

Regards, Mike


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## Troy Farmer

Congratulations on the new to you tractor! Hope it serves you well.


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## MScowman

Just when I said I've had no problems with my 5093e, it has run below add on site glass, where should I start looking for the culprit? I see no leaking from loader connections.

Thanks,


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## somedevildawg

Loader arms up or down whilst looking at sight glass?


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## Tx Jim

somedevildawg said:


> Loader arms up or down whilst looking at sight glass?


Dawg

I have a question for you.

If a cylinder is double acting as most FEL cylinders are today do you think the small amount of difference in quantity of oil displaced by cylinder rods when inserted in cyl barrels will have much affect on hyd reservoir fluid level with a capacity of 10-15 gallons? I think not much affect on oil level. IMHO single acting cylinders whether extended or retracted affect oil level more than dual acting cylinders.

I'm just "thinking out loud".

Thanks,Jim


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## MScowman

My loader was down and 3 pt. was up then let down to add more fluid.


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## somedevildawg

Idk Jim, but if both three point and FEL was raised....maybe? Negligible but readable....
Idk MScowman, I would just have to keep a keen eye out, has to be going somewhere....


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## MScowman

Well, I see where it's going. Out of the tractor, right side of the rear Axel not quite sure need to get someone over here that can look where it's coming from, while I operate it.


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## BisonMan

Vol said:


> Its all about the last 2 minutes. No need to bid before then as that is all that really matters. I never understood why anyone would want to bid earlier and just run the bid up for no gain.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Yup! I've learned that. Anyway I ended up with a pretty cool post pounder. The guy I was bidding against waited to long then was whining so I'm pretty happy, I'm sure he would've bid me up a little more.

The 5090Ms were pretty reasonable but I was hoping for a bit more of a deal.


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## Bennieb39

I would not get a nh tractor to many problems. JD good tractor owned a few I bought a Kubota 2 years ago and love it. Not sure if u have a MF dealer near u but the 4700 series tractor has some great Features and are pretty heavy. Will be my tractor. Buy the tractor that fits your needs don’t worry about color. U buy a name brand tractor should have any problems.


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## Bonfire

Bennieb39 said:


> I would not get a nh tractor to many problems. JD good tractor owned a few I bought a Kubota 2 years ago and love it. Not sure if u have a MF dealer near u but the 4700 series tractor has some great Features and are pretty heavy. Will be my tractor. Buy the tractor that fits your needs don't worry about color. U buy a name brand tractor should have any problems.


And dealer support


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## Bennieb39

Bonfire said:


> And dealer support


Agree dealer support is very important we have 2 Kubota dealer near me and one is awesome other will never buy from them no matter the price. never had a good luck with them. so dealer support probably top of the list.


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## eric38acp

The things I have noticed on the newer tractors is the transmission forward and reverse speeds. You have listed pto implements so keeping that in mind and speaking as a non-flat grounder this is my opinion. If you are at your forward speed for mowing lets say 8mph and you switch to reverse and it tries to do 11 it will pull the tractor down. The constant sudden deceleration will wreak havoc on drive line parts of your mowers, expensive fix and will tear up the grass with wheel spin. Baling has the same issue. The rpm needs to stay up to make your tie on a bale and when you back to park a bale you will be flying backward requiring a shift at the least. Seen the comment on a LHR being important, bought into the marketing. While switching the tractor goes to neutral before switching direction there you role at gravity roll speed and either kill the engine or spin. By the time the transmission does it's thing you can do it right way and going. Yes, I have bad knees too. Back in '01 or '02 I e-mailed JD about the issue and now the 5000 M series is available with a 12/4 transmission that would match pto operations and getting that transmission makes the price of an M more equal in price with the e-series. Otherwise you would have to go to older equipment. A good fix for the bigger mower and the weight issue besides shear tractor weight is a counter weight on the mower itself. As I was getting material together at work to make a counterweight at work an 18 yrs old asked what I was doing and commented why it didn't come with it. Just out of high school and smarter than college educated engineers, lmao. Added this and a 3/8" ar400 skid-plate to a brand new bigger $9000 mower because the tractors hi speed reverse had stripped out the old mowers drive shaft for the last time. A big thanks to the guy from the vermeer shop alerting me to the deceleration and drive shaft issue and my brothers idea on the counterweight idea. A nine ft mower will really pull on any of any tractor in this weight class.


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## Bennieb39

own JD and kubota id take the kubota over the JD any day. if you go with JD get an M. have been hearing that CNH have been having ploblems with the farmalls with a few things. i guess any tractor could come bad from factor. i know everyone always says about the weight difference, i know we have a M7060 and with a loader, loaded rear tires, rear wheel weights, and cab we are around 9100 lbs. i think is a great hay tractor. looked at the m-91 but it was more then i wanted to spend but would have been a great tractor.


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## Tx Jim

eric38acp

Could you please explain how shifting a tractor into reverse can possibly tear up a mower driveshaft? Is this tractor/mower operator backing this mower over substantial diameter size trees?


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## Tx Jim

Bennieb39 said:


> i know everyone always says about the weight difference, i know we have a M7060 and with a loader, loaded rear tires, rear wheel weights, and cab we are around 9100 lbs.


My Kubota M7040/FEL/cab with cast rear wheels/loaded rear tires & no rear wheel weights weighs 8880#s


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## ttazzman

I wonder how the OP is likeing his tractor and pros n cons.....


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## Vol

ttazzman said:


> I wonder how the OP is likeing his tractor and pros n cons.....


Well it's his first cab tractor so I would guess he is madly in love with it. It's a nice looking outfit. 

Regards, Mike


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## slowzuki

#1 Overrunning clutch on my discbine and most others I've run. None on round baler but it has enough drag to stop instantly when pto disengaged. Sudden drop in tractor rpm not an issue.

#2 Using reverser on steep hills while mowing 8 mph with out feathering with clutch and brakes at pto is gonna tear stuff up. Same as firing a shuttle shift into reverse and doing the same thing or jamming an old unsynchronized transmission and doing same. Reverser wet clutch will stand up to feathering for thousands of hours, old dry clutch will do 1000-1500 hours of this between splits and clutch replacement. With cab and loader on, first clutch job pays for a reverser option.



eric38acp said:


> The things I have noticed on the newer tractors is the transmission forward and reverse speeds. You have listed pto implements so keeping that in mind and speaking as a non-flat grounder this is my opinion. If you are at your forward speed for mowing lets say 8mph and you switch to reverse and it tries to do 11 it will pull the tractor down. The constant sudden deceleration will wreak havoc on drive line parts of your mowers, expensive fix and will tear up the grass with wheel spin. Baling has the same issue. The rpm needs to stay up to make your tie on a bale and when you back to park a bale you will be flying backward requiring a shift at the least. Seen the comment on a LHR being important, bought into the marketing. While switching the tractor goes to neutral before switching direction there you role at gravity roll speed and either kill the engine or spin. By the time the transmission does it's thing you can do it right way and going. Yes, I have bad knees too. Back in '01 or '02 I e-mailed JD about the issue and now the 5000 M series is available with a 12/4 transmission that would match pto operations and getting that transmission makes the price of an M more equal in price with the e-series. Otherwise you would have to go to older equipment. A good fix for the bigger mower and the weight issue besides shear tractor weight is a counter weight on the mower itself. As I was getting material together at work to make a counterweight at work an 18 yrs old asked what I was doing and commented why it didn't come with it. Just out of high school and smarter than college educated engineers, lmao. Added this and a 3/8" ar400 skid-plate to a brand new bigger $9000 mower because the tractors hi speed reverse had stripped out the old mowers drive shaft for the last time. A big thanks to the guy from the vermeer shop alerting me to the deceleration and drive shaft issue and my brothers idea on the counterweight idea. A nine ft mower will really pull on any of any tractor in this weight class.


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## eric38acp

slowzuki said:


> #1 Overrunning clutch on my discbine and most others I've run. None on round baler but it has enough drag to stop instantly when pto disengaged. Sudden drop in tractor rpm not an issue.
> 
> #2 Using reverser on steep hills while mowing 8 mph with out feathering with clutch and brakes at pto is gonna tear stuff up. Same as firing a shuttle shift into reverse and doing the same thing or jamming an old unsynchronized transmission and doing same. Reverser wet clutch will stand up to feathering for thousands of hours, old dry clutch will do 1000-1500 hours of this between splits and clutch replacement. With cab and loader on, first clutch job pays for a reverser option.


One: This mower is not a discbine. There is a slip clutch that is stronger than the drive shaft apparently. So yes deceleration is an issue for now. The overrunning clutch is a sweet idea, the slip clutch will be changed out. Just in time too, I was budgeting a different model tractor. Oh and the mowing tractor does not have a reverser. I can live with double shifting.

Two: The reverser tractor is used for baling. Mowing or baling reverse is from stop. I still use the reverse tractor like it doesn't even have one. Otherwise depending on how steep, It may roll to enough speed to kill it or keep the rpm up and it will give you wiplash. That makes it basically worthless and useless. Just used the old tractor bought when I was born and driving since I was three, seat bent over where I put my back into it pushing the brakes. The old dry clutch is hanging in there with double those hours.The most replacements I seen were getting complete overhauls anyway and should have been retired. Neighbor got a surprise with his new Kub this year. Priceless watching when he got to his first corner and he hit reverse. Actually scratched his head, just like a cartoon. Set there for almost a minute and throttled down. Bummed me since the Kub we tried out in the nineties had fantastic ratios. Been looking for one like it but with the 5 liter motor, no cab and not too many hours. Hard to find


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## slowzuki

I think your expectations of what a shuttle/reverser is or does are a little high. They are primarily intended for frequent forward reverse operations such as loader use. They do pass through neutral on most (all?) models, some have a variable aggressiveness setting so you can have very little roll in the neutral position.

You aren't supposed to be at high rpm or speed when reversing. Most if not all brands/models don't like that. Generally if you aren't going to use the clutch, you let rpm's fall to near idle, hit the reverser, then bring rpms back up.

Running equipment at pto speed you have to use the clutch w reverser, always always. On steep hills, you have to use the clutch and brakes w reverser always.

If you keep hammering the reverser at full rpm, it provides the braking of the tractors forward motion using the expensive and not as large as brakes clutch discs. You will tear them up and overheat the fluid. You will also prematurely damage splines and the spring hub in the tractors transmission.

Some brands are built beefy and can handle this abuse for a while or have computers that downshift the powershift and drop the engine rpms automatically to provide this protection along with auto shift but I don't know of any utility tractors with that level of protection. Maybe some of the smaller NH 18x6 power shifts?


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## Tx Jim

eric38acp said:


> Just used the old tractor bought when I was born and driving since I was three, seat bent over where I put my back into it pushing the brakes.


Really 3 yrs old driving a tractor & operating brake pedals?? I guess in lieu of cup holder this tractor had a baby bottle & pacifier holder. And maybe a hook to carry diaper bag. I thought when I started driving JD 2 cyl tractor at the age of 10 I was young but you beat me by a long way!.


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## Tx Jim

slowzuki said:


> If you keep hammering the reverser at full rpm, it provides the braking of the tractors forward motion using the expensive and not as large as brakes clutch discs. You will tear them up and overheat the fluid. You will also prematurely damage splines and the spring hub in the tractors transmission.


My neighbors JD hyd shuttle with about 3000 hrs of use abrutely stopped moving fwd/rev. Tractor was split into between engine & clutch housing & damper clutch springs were found loose in clutch housing with damper clutch hub stripped loose.


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## eric38acp

Dad was quitting smoking at the time so he had sis and me doing things probably way too early, wasn't a good teacher either. A deputy stopped in the road, run over and scared me once, thought the tractor was rolling off. Couldn't see me. My sister could remember how old we were then or I wouldn't have realized. Being too short got me out of baling til at least ten or eleven, hah, but had to go bale for other people by thirteen. There is a new holland dealer close and will check on that. Remembered the case/mccormick c series been looking at those. Mccormick switched it to perkins and think the governers are better on that motor, but there isn't a dealer ship close. Thought the case dealer may have most of the parts. The budget is holding me back right now. Keep looking at a 5085m in missouri. The dealer outbid me but looks like he is only trying to make a couple K, if he has it till mid next year it will be great.

Oh, does anyone know if mccormick changed anything else on the c other than the motor.


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## eric38acp

slowzuki said:


> I think your expectations of what a shuttle/reverser is or does are a little high. They are primarily intended for frequent forward reverse operations such as loader use. They do pass through neutral on most (all?) models, some have a variable aggressiveness setting so you can have very little roll in the neutral position.
> 
> You aren't supposed to be at high rpm or speed when reversing. Most if not all brands/models don't like that. Generally if you aren't going to use the clutch, you let rpm's fall to near idle, hit the reverser, then bring rpms back up.
> 
> Running equipment at pto speed you have to use the clutch w reverser, always always. On steep hills, you have to use the clutch and brakes w reverser always.
> 
> If you keep hammering the reverser at full rpm, it provides the braking of the tractors forward motion using the expensive and not as large as brakes clutch discs. You will tear them up and overheat the fluid. You will also prematurely damage splines and the spring hub in the tractors transmission.
> 
> Some brands are built beefy and can handle this abuse for a while or have computers that downshift the powershift and drop the engine rpms automatically to provide this protection along with auto shift but I don't know of any utility tractors with that level of protection. Maybe some of the smaller NH 18x6 power shifts?


Now you are back to what I originally said in the first place. It's not all it's cracked up to be. Just an extra shift when changing direction. The power reverser tractor is not what I use to mow with. It is a jd5410 syncro. No reverser. That's the same as the E series transmissions now. Which is what the feller was looking at. I priced a new one. It came in at 45,600 with the syncro plus. I did not price the E because that is the same tractor. If I can say hey look at this point for your application and be helpful it should have been a good thing. Why sink the extra money in if it's not going to be useful and less efficient. I mentioned to my brother today about looking at a New Holland as you pointed out. He thought he was going totally Mahindra. The TM looked like it would be a good fit with the 18x6. It's physically bigger than what was intended, but hey no emission junk. Looked at the putting an overrunning clutch inline but the driveline would be down to about 16 inches at that point. Since getting the mower just been going slow so I don't have to double shift at the corners. I don't use the reverser tractor since it would be the same, except a ~couple more tons.


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## eric38acp

Tx Jim said:


> eric38acp
> 
> Could you please explain how shifting a tractor into reverse can possibly tear up a mower driveshaft? Is this tractor/mower operator backing this mower over substantial diameter size trees?


Inertia. The mower has a 5/8 hex shaft driving all the disc. Has nothing to do with shifting and not what I said. The tractor has a very high reverse gear and pulls the rpm down quick, so 540 to less say 100 over and over again. Yes, if it had an overrunning clutch I wouldn't have mentioned it. No, it's not a 30k discbine taking a 20 some ft swath. I thought you was talking about bushhogging when I read about the tree comment at 5 in the morning. Funny. Did watch my uncles neighbor chop off a t-post with a disc mower. Gotta love it. Yes, I did use the tractor to loosen up a place in the garden so I could play with my Tonka's. Got my butt busted, but he left the tillers on so....Weird childhood looking back on it now.


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## Tx Jim

eric38acp said:


> The things I have noticed on the newer tractors is the transmission forward and reverse speeds. You have listed pto implements so keeping that in mind and speaking as a non-flat grounder this is my opinion. If you are at your forward speed for mowing lets say 8mph and you switch to reverse and it tries to do 11 it will pull the tractor down. The constant sudden deceleration will wreak havoc on drive line parts of your mowers, expensive fix and will tear up the grass with wheel spin. Baling has the same issue. The rpm needs to stay up to make your tie on a bale and when you back to park a bale you will be flying backward requiring a shift at the least.


eric38acp

My 3 room country school education reading comprehension tells me that you did refer to switching tractor transmission from forward to reverse!!!!!! I personally see no good reason to shift into reverse while cutting with a disc mower "but different strokes for different folks"!

PS: my Krone 9ft disc mower has an overrunning clutch.


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## r82230

Tx Jim said:


> My 3 room country school education reading comprehension tells me that you did refer to switching tractor transmission from forward to reverse!!!!!!


Golly Jim, your school was 50% bigger than mine (if my math skills are correct coming from a 2 room country school).  Did you ever get lost in a school that big? I think I might have.  :lol: 

Sorry Jim, just couldn't help myself this morning. 

Larry


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## Hayman1

r82230 said:


> Golly Jim, your school was 50% bigger than mine (if my math skills are correct coming from a 2 room country school).  Did you ever get lost in a school that big? I think I might have.  :lol:
> 
> Sorry Jim, just couldn't help myself this morning.
> 
> Larry


Now, my dad was in a 2 room school and taught the grades 2-3 levels below him. Think that was how it was done in the 20s. Near Charlottesville Va


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## Tx Jim

r82230 said:


> Golly Jim, your school was 50% bigger than mine (if my math skills are correct coming from a 2 room country school).  Did you ever get lost in a school that big? I think I might have.  :lol:
> 
> Sorry Jim, just couldn't help myself this morning.
> 
> Larry


Larry

I actually was my 8th grade valedictorian & janitor  I had 7 classmates !!  I still remember being treated similar to an outcast when I attended high school in the closest town. Oh well I survived to graduate. I live 2 miles from the old elementary school building,

Jim


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## r82230

Tx Jim said:


> Larry
> 
> I actually was my 8th grade valedictorian & janitor  I had 7 classmates !!  I still remember being treated similar to an outcast when I attended high school in the closest town. Oh well I survived to graduate. I live 2 miles from the old elementary school building,
> 
> Jim


Jim, no wonder your school was bigger, I only had 6 classmates (1 boy, 5 girls  ). And I live still only live a 1 mile away (but I had to walk up hill both ways  ), it's a Church now. Changed schools in 6th grade, ended up at a huge new 6 room elementary school, where I could get lost in the restroom, because it was huge. :huh: Let alone having almost 30 classmates.

Oops, back to the regular scheduled programing, sorry to throw this thread way off course. 

Larry

PS being I'm from a little farther north than you Jim, not only did I have to walk up hill to school both ways, but in the the winter with snow up to my knees even.  Of course my legs were shorter back then.


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## slowzuki

Long term, reverser main clutch likely will last life of tractor and trans synchro's will last 10k hours. Manual sync reverser transmission or the non-reverser transmission will have the synchro rings burned off them eventually too and be back to unsynchronized operation.

The reverser tractor, just feather the clutch if you're backing up to square corners, its a wet clutch, it will be ok for a few feet with only a disc mower on it. Dry clutch tractor not so much.



eric38acp said:


> Now you are back to what I originally said in the first place. It's not all it's cracked up to be. Just an extra shift when changing direction. The power reverser tractor is not what I use to mow with. It is a jd5410 syncro. No reverser. That's the same as the E series transmissions now. Which is what the feller was looking at. I priced a new one. It came in at 45,600 with the syncro plus. I did not price the E because that is the same tractor. If I can say hey look at this point for your application and be helpful it should have been a good thing. Why sink the extra money in if it's not going to be useful and less efficient. I mentioned to my brother today about looking at a New Holland as you pointed out. He thought he was going totally Mahindra. The TM looked like it would be a good fit with the 18x6. It's physically bigger than what was intended, but hey no emission junk. Looked at the putting an overrunning clutch inline but the driveline would be down to about 16 inches at that point. Since getting the mower just been going slow so I don't have to double shift at the corners. I don't use the reverser tractor since it would be the same, except a ~couple more tons.


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## slowzuki

Just use the clutch, tens of thousands of people running disc mowers on reverser tractors and not blowing apart drivelines.



eric38acp said:


> Inertia. The mower has a 5/8 hex shaft driving all the disc. Has nothing to do with shifting and not what I said. The tractor has a very high reverse gear and pulls the rpm down quick, so 540 to less say 100 over and over again. Yes, if it had an overrunning clutch I wouldn't have mentioned it. No, it's not a 30k discbine taking a 20 some ft swath. I thought you was talking about bushhogging when I read about the tree comment at 5 in the morning. Funny. Did watch my uncles neighbor chop off a t-post with a disc mower. Gotta love it. Yes, I did use the tractor to loosen up a place in the garden so I could play with my Tonka's. Got my butt busted, but he left the tillers on so....Weird childhood looking back on it now.


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## Tx Jim

Even though I seen a few cutter/mower operators make square corners without the need for reversing tractor directions not leaving any uncut material I just turn corner non stop & if any uncut material is left standing after field has been cut I just make a pass on each corner with cutter/mower & miraculously uncut material disappears. Wear & tear on clutch/torsion damper is almost non existent utilizing this method.

IMHO reversing directions at higher than engine idle speed is drastically going to shorten the life of some drive component very similar to my neighbors loader tractor torsional damper plate springs failure at less than 4000 hrs of use.


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## slowzuki

Yup if I'm in no hurry I reverse and square the corners, but normally will go back and mow an x to get the strips.



Tx Jim said:


> Even though I seen a few cutter/mower operators make square corners without the need for reversing tractor directions not leaving any uncut material I just turn corner non stop & if any uncut material is left standing after field has been cut I just make a pass on each corner with cutter/mower & miraculously uncut material disappears. Wear & tear on clutch/torsion damper is almost non existent utilizing this method.
> 
> IMHO reversing directions at higher than engine idle speed is drastically going to shorten the life of some drive component very similar to my neighbors loader tractor torsional damper plate springs failure at less than 4000 hrs of use.


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## Tx Jim

Inquiring minds such as mine want to know the advantage of cutting square corners!

Back in my youth I cut square corners with a '36 model JD B tractor/JD #5 sickle mower just by turning steering wheel to the right & pressing on right brake pedal BUT sickle mowers plug a lot easier than disc cutters. .


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## slowzuki

If you grew up on pull type mower conditioner like me, that uncut strip on corners kills me lol. Pull type cuts clean corner when done right and you heard about it if there was tufts after tedding/raking.



Tx Jim said:


> Inquiring minds such as mine want to know the advantage of cutting square corners!
> 
> Back in my youth I cut square corners with a '36 model JD B tractor/JD #5 sickle mower just by turning steering wheel to the right & pressing on right brake pedal BUT sickle mowers plug a lot easier than disc cutters. .


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## eric38acp

Touche Tx Jim. I was thinking the fun doesn't begin til the clutch is let out. Seen a fellow mowing with a super c that could make a corner without raising. Kinda made me jealous. Tried. I would still end up with the curve. Seen a deere 700 something tricycle come out to the road with about an 8ft discmower on and thought that feller would get a kick out of that. Done the x thing years ago with the old mower, worked good til I hit a thick patch and felt it was too much strain on the mower. If the new one goes for ~30yrs like the other one, it should put me 6ft under.


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