# Bermuda or Orchard Grass???



## wabn8c (Mar 2, 2015)

Hi all,

I'm looking to start up a hobby hay operation on our farm. I've got about 7 hilly acres that I would like to do square bale. I like what I'm learning about orchard grass...lower maintenance, very appealing to many customers, in general better for a beginner like myself. Some of you have probably advised me in my Learning Center posts.

However, I keep seeing people talking about how hard heat and drought are on OG. I'm located in west Tennessee about 1 hour north of Memphis. Will I have trouble maintaining an OG crop in my area? I realize that any crop will suffer in severe heat and drought...I'm referring more to a typical summer. Would I be safer to start off with bermuda grass hay instead? What are the advantages/disadvantages to pure bermuda hay crops? Will I have trouble selling pure Bermuda square bales? There's not a whole lot of competition for high quality hay in our area IMHO...most any decent ground has been converted to row crop usage in the past 5 years. There are several hay producers in the area, but most just go roll whatever is in the field..not a lot of focus on "clean" hay around here.

Thoughts???


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I think I'm about at the same latitude you are.....only 9 hours to the east. I'm not real familiar with the typical weather out your way but I'm thinking it could be similar to here. In a normal summer here orchard grass doesn't do the best during July and August when it's in the 90s every day.....if we have rainfall it will stay green and grow a little though. It grows very good in the spring and fall though.

I'm thinking about planting a patch of hybrid bermuda myself this year. Nobody grows it for hay here but common Bermuda grass is a common lawn grass here and is everywhere so I don't see why I can't grow bermuda for hay but I do seem to be on the northern fringe of where it will grow from what I have read. The bermuda will be opposite of the orchard since it will grow the best in the hot summer months and very little in the cooler spring and fall. The downside to bermuda is it is going to be more difficult for me to establish since you have to use live sprigs instead of seeds to establish a stand and sprigs aren't readily available here and more costly to buy than orchard grass seeds. The upside is once you have a stand of bermuda established it will last a really long time while orchard will start thinning and need replanting every 4-5 year or so.

In my opinion if you make good quality hay you won't have trouble selling it whether it is orchard or bermuda if there is a need for quality hay in your area. I have brought in some bermuda hay here to resell and haven't had any trouble selling it. Most people here have never seen bermuda hay before and I have got quite a bit of positive feedback on it......only had 1 person that wouldn't buy it.


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## wabn8c (Mar 2, 2015)

What is the difference in bale yield between orchard grass and bermuda? Is there a significant in the total number of bales you could get in a typical year between the two?


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

http://www.noble.org/Global/ag/forage/Baker-ForagePubs/2000ForageYieldBermudagrass.pdf


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Not sure about yield with Bermuda Grass there, Tift 44 is cold hardy enough for most of TN.....higher in protein and digestibility than coastal Bermuda and yields slightly better. Probably can expect 5 ton pa, per year? Not sure


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I am planting Cheyenne 2 Bermuda this spring. It is a certified Bermuda seeded variety. It is not supposed to revert back to Common Bermuda as some other types of seeded Bermuda have been known to do.

I could not find anyone to sprig a hybrid and the regional extension agent said I would be pleased with the Cheyenne 2.

It will grow as far north as the Tennessee - Kentucky line. Not certain how far east or west.

The seed is pricy as the plant does not produce much seed.

Yearly yield is said to be between 7.5 and 8 tons per acre. I am sure that is under ideal plant nutrition and conditions.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

That's probably your best option in the Bermuda grasses ^ much more time money and aggravation working with live sprigs.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

somedevildawg said:


> That's probably your best option in the Bermuda grasses ^ much more time money and aggravation working with live sprigs.


Looks like a much quicker way to establish as well. I looked on the net and it can cost up to $200 per acre to have bermuda sprigged. (If a person can get some sprigged)

Planting at 10 lb per acre is costing me $135 per acre.

100 sprigs per acre was considered the upper end, 75 sprigs per acre was the lower end.

Bermuda seed has 1.5 million seeds per pound for unhulled seed and 2 million per pound for hulled. At 10 pounds per acre the planting rate would be 15 M - to 20 M seeds per acre. Should not take long to get good coverage with that.


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## Mike120 (May 4, 2009)

Tim, you'll like the Cheyenne 2. I've got one of my paddocks in the original Cheyenne that I planted around 10 years ago. It's still going strong. It's only grazed though. I would have done more but I couldn't get any seed. I tried the Ranchero Frio blend but wasn't happy with it. I guess they are finally able to get viable seeds off the second version, in the past they were usually sold out before March.


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## Tx Jim (Jun 30, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> .
> 
> 100 sprigs per acre was considered the upper end, 75 sprigs per acre was the lower end.


100 sprigs per acre sounds as if it would take several yrs to have a solid stand. My neighbors sprigs under govt programs and puts out between 3 & 5 sq bales per acre or so many cu. ft when in bulk. I definitely know he puts out a whole lot more than 100 sprigs per acre. i'll ask him how many cu.ft he puts out.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Lots of good info at the Noble Founadtion

http://www.noble.org/Ag/Soils/BeforeSprigging/


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Tx Jim said:


> 100 sprigs per acre sounds as if it would take several yrs to have a solid stand. My neighbors sprigs under govt programs and puts out between 3 & 5 sq bales per acre or so many cu. ft when in bulk. I definitely know he puts out a whole lot more than 100 sprigs per acre. i'll ask him how many cu.ft he puts out.


100 per acre is sprigging roots, not tops.

On a Bermuda like Alicia you can use tops and get complete coverage. We planted 24 acres of Alicia with tops and got a cutting the first year. Cover the ground and disk it in.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Mike120 said:


> Tim, you'll like the Cheyenne 2. I've got one of my paddocks in the original Cheyenne that I planted around 10 years ago. It's still going strong. It's only grazed though. I would have done more but I couldn't get any seed. I tried the Ranchero Frio blend but wasn't happy with it. I guess they are finally able to get viable seeds off the second version, in the past they were usually sold out before March.


Thanks.

I had never really considered a seeded variety until the extension agent suggested it. I began to research and learned the Cheyenne 2 has high yields and is long lasting. I am glad to learn first hand from someone who has planted some and has had a good experience. Gives me more peace of mind.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Planting tops is not sprigging.....sprigging a 100 spriggs per acre isn't going to do much good.


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## Bonfire (Oct 21, 2012)

Tim/South said:


> I am planting Cheyenne 2 Bermuda this spring. It is a certified Bermuda seeded variety. It is not supposed to revert back to Common Bermuda as some other types of seeded Bermuda have been known to do.
> 
> I could not find anyone to sprig a hybrid and the regional extension agent said I would be pleased with the Cheyenne 2.
> 
> ...


When do you plan to start planting? I would plant it early enough to catch as many rain showers as possible but yet avoid any frost. You may be past your last frost.



Tim/South said:


> Looks like a much quicker way to establish as well. I looked on the net and it can cost up to $200 per acre to have bermuda sprigged. (If a person can get some sprigged)
> 
> Planting at 10 lb per acre is costing me $135 per acre.
> 
> ...


Have you taken into consideration any seed treatment? I'm sure your Chyenne will come with a treatment coating. With the stuff I've planted, half the weight is in seed treatment.



Mike120 said:


> Tim, you'll like the Cheyenne 2. I've got one of my paddocks in the original Cheyenne that I planted around 10 years ago. It's still going strong. It's only grazed though. I would have done more but I couldn't get any seed. I tried the Ranchero Frio blend but wasn't happy with it. I guess they are finally able to get viable seeds off the second version, in the past they were usually sold out before March.


I tried some of that Ranchero Frio as well. It was a bust. I think there were three varieties in it? Can't remember. Bout everything I have now in seeded bermuda is Wrangler.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

> When do you plan to start planting? I would plant it early enough to catch as many rain showers as possible but yet avoid any frost. You may be past your last frost.


As soon as the ground warms up to 70 degrees. I read where germination is only 48% if planted at 60-65 degrees.
Germination is in the high 80% when planted when the ground temps are between 70 and 85 degrees.
Different seed companies and web sites vary some on germination information.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

rajela said:


> Planting tops is not sprigging.....sprigging a 100 spriggs per acre isn't going to do much good.


I agree. I thought sprigging would have a complete coverage. When I read the number of sprigs generally used I began to shy away from sprigs. Could not find anyone to sprig anyway.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Noble Foundation recommendations "Sprig no less than 25 bushels per acre (30 bushels per acre is recommended) at a depth of 2 inches."


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## wabn8c (Mar 2, 2015)

It sounds like most of you guys are in favor of bermuda grass. I've talked to several hay folks...they recommend bermuda over orchard grass here in our area. Can you guys who raise bermuda hay tell me about your weed and pest management strategies? Chemical you use and for what and time of year of application? Thanks!

I've noticed in several hayfields around here (mixed grass for cattle) that there is a lot of broom sage in it this time of year. I've always been told broom sage is a result of pH being out of whack. Do you guys know if that is true?


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

wabn8c said:


> I've noticed in several hayfields around here (mixed grass for cattle) that there is a lot of broom sage in it this time of year. I've always been told broom sage is a result of pH being out of whack. Do you guys know if that is true?


Mostly true, but also fertility in general. Some researchers advocate increasing phosphorous inputs due to P deficiencies. Broomsage is very opportunistic in my opinion and once established is just plain old HARD to get rid of no matter what you do. We've found the above to be very helpful but we still had to stay on top of the stuff. If we had a weed wiper I would have tried it and I think it would be very helpful. We've had good results by keeping stuff cut short and preventing it from going to seed and also allowing the good grass to get a jump on it. Best method of all is not let it get a foothold in your fields.

Regards,

Steve


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

rajela said:


> Noble Foundation recommendations "Sprig no less than 25 bushels per acre (30 bushels per acre is recommended) at a depth of 2 inches."


I read that from their site. Found one link that said 100 bushels per acre for athletic fields.

Hopefully some of the people taking about sprigging meant 100 bushels per acre rather than 100 sprigs. Could be when I read sprigged at 100 per acre, they meant bushels rather than sprigs.

I can see getting a very good stand at 100 bushels per acre.


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Sprigging 20 to 30 bushels an acre will run you around $200.00 an acre around here. You till they deliver and plant spriggs. I would hate to pay for a 100 bushel per acre.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

I think it's more like 20-30 bushels, but that can vary depending on how many the guy brought with him....bout every 3 ft or so....


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## thorndale (Jun 21, 2009)

We grow coastal bermuda organically in Texas. Coastal is such a good forage here that I am spoiled. I would hate to have to sprig a field, though. Of course, here there are plenty of people here to sprig the hay and it is relatively inexpensive. One sprig per foot, though!. I like the idea suggested -- use tops and disc in. I have done that in a wettish year in a small experimental patch. Works well!! Any new conversion can fail, of course, due to weather conditions. We bought ours and converted it to organic - a chore in itself. Our fields produce between 300 and 500 square bales per 10 acre field per cutting and can have from one to three cuttings a year. That is comparable with the commercial fields in the area. In unusual drought conditions it can be 0, in fantastic years it can be 500 bales per 10 acres per cutting with 5 cuttings. We, here in severe drought conditions, have bought hay from ... Tennessee!! We have thought of moving up to Pennsylvania where coastal does not grow and would probably have to give up growing our own since I hate the thought of having to seed, feed and whatever so often. We might just locate next to a hay grower, perhaps the Amish. Coastal pretty much just needs nitrogen fertilizer of some sort and some sort of weed control. One last caveat. Using commercial fertilizers etc can "wear out" a field and create acid conditions requiring ever increasing applications AND we have this hybrid KR bluestem from Tex A&M for roadsides but which is taking over the fields of commercial growers and is very hard to get rid of requiring many applications of new herbicide. That is best gotten rid of as soon as it appears. You may have similar hard to get rid of weeds.


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## Yorkiemom (Jun 5, 2012)

Hay there! LOL...

I live north of Knoxville. I had the most fantastic stand of orchard grass for about 3 years, until I put my cattle on it one desperate year. It needed to be completely reseeded after that. As long a I kept my PH at correct levels and made sure it had plenty of Nitrogen, my stand was amazing, without irrigation.

I also raised Cheyenne Bermuda hay. I sewed it using the seed drill I rented from the Co-op without actually lowering the discs to avoid going too deep. I used the drill just to get the application rate correct. I then used a cultipacker on top. I want to caution you that baling it is VERY different from orchard or a regular grass mix. The leafy varieties of Bermuda (not Common Bermuda) hold the water VERY well. It is really tricky to cure out, even in very hot weather. I had to kick it multiple times to get what was on the bottom to dry. One reason it's tricky to bale when it finally drys is because the length of the cut is so much shorter than a normal grass hay. The baler has a harder time lifting it into the chamber. Lastly, it is a lighter fluffier hay. To get a good solid bale, you really need to crank the adjustments down much tighter than normal so it compacts the hay well. If not, you will end up with 6 foot long bananas. If you're used to square baling a more common grass mix, you will have to play with it quite a bit to get it right. I also noticed that Bermuda really takes it's time waking up. If there is already some volunteer grass where you have it sewn, it may not come up at all. The areas that I use for my winter dry lot are in the Cheyenne Bermuda. As long as nothing comes up in the field before the Bermuda wakes up, it will do super well. You will also get MANY MORE cuttings than with Orchard. I think my record was 5 cuttings in one season. We had a lot of rain that year. I had trouble selling my square bale Bermuda. Horse people were worried it would cause colic, cow people wouldn't pay what I needed for it. My biggest frustration with the Bermuda is that everywhere that I had the Cheyenne Bermuda, Common Bermuda eventually took over. None of my animals like it. (cattle, horses, sheep, even goats!) I'm going to reseed those areas this year and will have to wait until the fall. It will take a couple of applications of round up to kill it off and I'll need to do it when the Common Bermuda is actively growing.

Based on my experience, if choosing between Bermuda and Orchard, go with the Orchard. It's easier to sew, more marketable, easier to maintain, easier to bale, and the seed is less expensive. Make sure you DON'T GRAZE it, keep your PH correct, and use Nitrogen every year.


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## elkhunter54 (Aug 26, 2014)

Like many responses on here, if you decide to go with bermuda, i would highly suggest going with a seeded type just for ease of planting. Bermuda is definitely more persistent than the orchardgrass is. I would expect orchardgrass to maintain a stand for about 5 years in your area before needing to be reseeded. Making sure that you have a soil pH of 6+ and good fertility will be very important in maintaining a good stand on both species but especially the orchardgrass. Everyone talks about the "yield potential" of bermuda but many don't realize to obtain that type of yield in bermuda, you must "spoon feed" it with nitrogen. If you expect to put down 1 application of nitrogen at the beginning of its growing period, you will be very disappointed in its yield. It needs to have 40 - 50 units of N applied every 3-4 weeks of its growing season.


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## elkhunter54 (Aug 26, 2014)

The first step in determining the problem is taking a good soil sample and have it analyzed to determine soil fertility levels. Broomsage is often an indication of low soil pH. As Steve mentioned, it can also be an indication of low phosphorous. My experience is that once you get soil pH and fertility levels where they need to be for good orchardgrass production, they will crowd out the broomsage.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

elkhunter54 said:


> I would expect orchardgrass to maintain a stand for about 5 years in your area before needing to be reseeded. Making sure that you have a soil pH of 6+ and good fertility will be very important in maintaining a good stand on both species but especially the orchardgrass.


Soil PH is very important.....but keeping high levels of Potash are keys to stand longevity HERE in Tennessee....properly maintained Orchard grass stands will easily last closer to ten years....but not if K levels are not monitored closely.

Regards, Mike


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## jjek (Jan 31, 2011)

The answer to your question is simply put this, cool season grasses will give you (depending on the varieties planted) approx. 7 to 10 tons dry matter per acre for orchard grass hay assuming three cuttings and bermuda 6 to 8 tons per acre. Alot depends on the varieties planted and the season in question. Bermuda loves nitrogen so your cost per ton is higher for the upper limits on the yields. Here in VA we have grown both and found that the Bermuda is a finer is more digestable for most stock (horses, cattle, etc.). We plant several varieties of orchard grass in our hay lots; benchmark, potomac, etc and overseed every, I'll repeat, every year at 25 to 30 lbs per acre. Which about evens out both on the cost per acre to produce. You can double crop the bermuda by overseeding oats in Feb. and taking a cut at soft boot (about the same time as first cut for orchard grass) stage.

We plant our bermuda using a drop seeder as the seed is very expensive and does not germinate well if planted deeper that 1/8 of an inch. Simply put kill whatever is in the field you are converting, lime and correct nutrient levels as shown by soil tests, disc to 6-8 inches several times during the spring, harrow the field, spread your seed and use a cultipacker to seat the seed and fertilize as recommeded by soil tests. One season we tried planting 30 acres with the no till drill set at its shallowest depth and had a 10 percent germination rate.

Bottom line is find out what your customers or potential customers want and grow that. Check with your local extension office and ag schools for not only what others are doing in your area but also on proven varieties for what you are planting.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

jjek said:


> We plant several varieties of orchard grass in our hay lots; benchmark, potomac, etc and overseed every, I'll repeat, every year at 25 to 30 lbs per acre. Which about evens out both on the cost per acre to produce.


Definitely sounds like you need to stick to Bermuda with that kind of Orchard grass planting results.

Regards, Mike


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