# Fall seeding of alfalfa



## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Been literally 20 years since I've done a fall seeding of hay. I can't recall if a cover is recommended or not. I always plant a bushel of oats when I seed in the spring, but father is saying they usually didn't when planting now.

I'm thinking it'd be wise as all summer I've been using the field cultivator to knock the weeds down. Those have been ragweed and horseweeds so I'm thinking I need something to stay ahead of those weeds as the alfalfa won't do it alone.

Would like to avoid at all costs having to spray as one of the reasons this ground is going to hay as the owners don't want any herbicides/insecticides used if at all possible.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

In theory fall planting avoids a lot of the weed pressure of a spring planting.

For 20 years I used Eptam in a 10-34-0 & Water carrier, the day before planting alfalfa. Then one year I missed the Eptam and the weed pressure was no worse than with the herbicide.

Here I like to shallow run the field cultivator when the soil crust over from the first of the Fall rains. Sometime early in September if possible. Then I look at the forecast and plant a day or two before the next good looking rain. 
I suspect you are not more than a week or two of planting now. 
Here seedling alfalfa seldom is bothered by our frosts. We seldom go below 22°F during the winter and even less often have a frost line in the soil. 
The other side of that coin is we do have some weed pressure, all winter. By April the alfalfa can have 3 to 5 feet of root growth.

I realize this does not help you much, but it is something to think about.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Thing is, last year the current owners paid someone to disc the ground down about the first of August, before the first killing frost they had horseweeds about 3 foot tall. Paid again to have it worked down. Of course last fall was somewhat odd, as it was the second week of November before we ever had a killing frost, most years it's about the 15th of October, hence the latest recommended date to cut the last cutting is September 15th according to Purdue.

In the winter of 2008/2009 we had a low of -22 one morning without windchill. Next day was -12, third morning was a balmy -5. Frost is a serious problem here, which is why we always plant orchard grass with the alfalfa, the sod helps to control heaving. Second year that father had the farm after buying it from grandfather, he had about 110 acres of hay ground that had a foot of alfalfa root above the ground from all the heaving over the winter. Other problem is if the cutting is made too late, the crop can literally smother under the snow if you get a crust on it, Purdue's theory is if it has enough regrowth, some of the regrowth will be above that crust and still allow the plant and it's neighbors to breath.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

We seed almost all of ours in the fall, springtime for us is tricky, cause it normally gets dry enough that the weeds outgrow the alfalfa. In the past we've put a little oats with the alfalfa, but that was more trouble than it was worth, so we've been seeding everything with no cover. We normally hit it with gramoxone in spring before it wakes up, and that takes care of most of the weeds, for us.

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

We added another small grain seed box to the drill I'll be using. Absolutely no problem to add oats. Main box holds the oats, original small seed box holds the alfalfa, one we added holds the orchard grass.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Oats will decrease overal stand yield for the remainder of the stand. If weed competition is expected then use Eptam pre-incorporporated, or post emmergence use Raptor, Pursuit.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

hayray said:


> Oats will decrease overal stand yield for the remainder of the stand. If weed competition is expected then use Eptam pre-incorporporated, or post emmergence use Raptor, Pursuit.


No go, owners want a minimum of chemicals used, hence the 10 year lease and the ultra low amount of rent for this area. They also paid the difference in price between regular and leaf hopper resistant seed.

I'm wondering if annual ryegrass would work better for a cover than oats.

Always, always used oats for a cover in the spring, the few times I haven't I've always regretted it. Never noticed a yield reduction before, even with the strange weather last year and the fact I only got two cuttings on about 20% of my ground, I still averaged almost 6 tons/acre.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Out of curiosity, I checked on Eptam, does not list giant ragweed as one of the things it controls. Also does not list horseweeds/marestail.

Lists several other grasses it controls, but how bought orchard grass? Always plant my grass when I plant the alfalfa as I can just never seem to get over it later to plant the orchard after the alfalfa is up.


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Annual ryegrass is pretty aggressive, so you need to make sure that is not as bad as the weeds. I always just clear seed, I would take your chances and assume that your alfalfa should compete well and should be no reason to plant another crop to compete with weeds and also the alfalfa. The new varieties are very aggressive, you may be remembering the old varieties like Vernal that were poor competitors.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

hayray said:


> I would take your chances and assume that your alfalfa should compete well and should be no reason to plant another crop to compete with weeds and also the alfalfa. .


EROSION would be the reason to plant cover crop HERE.

Seeding new alfalfa leaves ground unprotected for a long time.Have seen gullies in it from rain and some turn into dust storms with wind.

1/2 bushel of oats would be my choice in the fall.

Annual Ryegrass would work but may come back the next yr if you have mild winter with snow cover.

JMHO


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## hayray (Feb 23, 2009)

Just attended a field day at Michigan State University Experiment Station, Lake City, Michigan.

Effects of Glyphosate Resistan Alfalfa Seeding Density on Forage Production
Richard Leep, James Kells, and Tim Dietz
Department of Crop and Soil Sciences
With support from the Rood Trust Fund.
Current recommendations for alfalfa seeding rates are based on conventional varieties. the introduciton of glyphosate resistant alfalfa offers a new management system for establishing alfalfa. Determining optimum seeding rates will provide forage producers with the information to maximize yield, quality, and profitablility with this new technology. Two weed managment strategies were evaluated: no herbicide(NH), or glyphosate (GH) applied prior to first harvest and as needed, thereafter. In the establishment year, there were differences in alfalfa stand, due to both seeding rate and glyphosate treatment. There were no differences in stand yield at the end of the fourth year and stand density between plots are similar for GH treatment. All the seeding rates in the GH treatment resulted in higher yields then all the seeding rates in the NH treatment. We conclude that glyphosate resistant alfalfa , with glyphosate applied for weed control , will produce equivalent yields for seeding rates down to 4 lbs. per acre, and greater yields then 4, 8, and 16 lbs/a. seeding rates with no herbicide applied. We conclude the use of glyphosate resistant alfalfa should produce greater yields in four production years when weeds are controlled with glyphosate than when no herbicide is applied. Also producers planting a late summer seeding of glyphosate resistant alfalfa with a companion crop of oats, using glyphosate for weed control , may reduce their seeding rate to 4 lbs./a. This may suggest that weed pressure in the seeding year has a long term effect upon alfalfa production, possibly due to weaker plants from competition for sunlight and nutrients. Furthermore, glyphosate resistant alfalfa yields good alfalfa and allows producers to utilize a low cost herbicide that is ground neutralized.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

swmnhay said:


> EROSION would be the reason to plant cover crop HERE.
> 
> Seeding new alfalfa leaves ground unprotected for a long time.Have seen gullies in it from rain and some turn into dust storms with wind.
> 
> 1/2 bushel of oats would be my choice in the fall.


That's what I'm thinking, by time it was worked and leveled, there is no organic material left for cover. While this won't be my most rolling piece of ground, it surely isn't the flattest either. It does have some long rolling hillsides with just enough clay in the soil it will crust, once it crusts and we should get a good rain, I can't see how I couldn't end up with gullies.

Not going annual ryegrass, I have two small seed boxes on my drill, if I plant the annual ryegrass as well I'll have to mix it with the orchardgrass and adjust the settings. Anybody who's ever used the old Oliver Superior drills knows once you find a setting you like, never move em as getting it back exactly where they were is next to impossible.


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## Rodney R (Jun 11, 2008)

I had assumed (we all know what happens when a guy assumes) that you were going to no-till this. But that would require chemical..... I wasn't thinking clearly. The problem that I've always had with oats, is that I got most of the gullies before the oats was established enough to mean anything. Your oats must be leaner than the stuff we can buy, cause to cut the seeding rate back far enough to not be a problem for the alfalfa meant that the oats was just weight in my drill. If you've done it in the past, and it's worked OK, then the only thing you can do is put some oats out. Are you allowed to spray it in spring, or is that also a no-no?

On another note - don't you just love how some folks insist on no chemicals but that leaves a guy with only one option - erosion and weeds.

Rodney


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I've no tilled alfalfa before with good results, but like I pointed out before, somebody else worked it the year before and the first time over it I about shook every filling right outa my mouth. Most of the time around here as long as you had a good stand established in the fall, spraying in the spring isn't required. The other thing I recall father doing on a fall planted field was if it was getting weedy in the spring was to make a very early cutting. Course if I recall correctly he'd usually chop it and feed free choice as green chop.


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