# Starting Hay Farm



## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Hello All,

Im new to the forum, and i had some questions i'd like to ask. My family has 160 acres of Irrigated land in Central Oklahoma that has been rented out to a farmer for the last 17 years and has been taken care of greatly. I am wanted to put it in hay possibly and wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions. I was thinking 80 acres Bermuda (Midland 99) and 80 acres Alfalfa. I'm not set on exactly what I'm going to do so I'm open to any and all comments or suggestions. Also I wouldn't be able to do anything until the first of 2017 but I am trying to get ahead of the game.

Look forward to your comments.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

I guess the big question I have is if the land has been rented out for 17 years and the farmer has been doing a good job with it why all of sudden do you want to put it into hay? Next question do you have the funds and or equipment to under take such an enterprise??

Wanting to do something and having the money equipment and expertise to do is a different matter. Experience or the lack there of doesn't mean to much one can learn if one wants to. We all have been beginners at some point in our lives. Most here are wise enough to admit that no matter how long they have been farming there is always room to learn new things. Some just take a bit longer then others lol


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

You must first answer this very important question. Don't screw this up.

OSU or OU?


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

Welcome to Hay Talk. Hey, we like details around here but sometimes will just give some terrific "well you could" suggestions. 

Here are some more questions to go along with Thorim's that will need answers:

Is the hay for your own use or for sale?

If for sale, do you have an established market?

Do you already have all the equipment you plan to use?

Shelia


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you all for the responses:


I used to help farm our land until i was 15 years old with my Dad at that time he passed away, i wanted to keep farming but at the age of 15 i wasn't able to do that.
I do not currently have the equipment needed, but have been researching and i can come up with what i need.
Im am a OSU Fan 100%
Small amount of hay would be for my own use but most would be for me to sale.
Im currently working on the marketing side of things, so im not there yet.

Again, thank you all for the comments and i look forward to more.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Oklahoma83 said:


> Im am a OSU Fan 100%


That is the right answer! Go Pokes !!!!! Welcome home, son. Welcome home!

Now, what type of bales do you plan on making? What's going to be your target market? Horse owners or cattle ranchers?

And what town are you near?


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

I plan to target the Horse Market, as i think that the market is over flooded with Cattle Quality hay. So might thoughts are small square bales as well as some round. Im about 15 miles from Shawnee, Oklahoma.

I will take any suggestions as i have a lot of respect to farmers that have been doing this for along time.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

What did the previous tenant grow?

Regards, Mike


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Wheat, Soybeans, and Corn


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

From my point of view that's a full time job and a lot of bales is there some way to phase yourself into that kind of acreage . I took my farm back over a three year period told my renter of my plan and had no hard feelings . I also had all my equipment in place before I started so that was a big help. You can do it just make some friends because you will need them I know I have needed lots of help this site has been a Godsend.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

If you plan on making very high quality bales, no weeds, you should be fine. We get a premium for such bales around here. Delivery and stacking is also an extra charge.

You don't seem too shy. That's good. Drive around the edge of Shawnee and look for those 2-5 acre properties that have horse setups. Knock on the door. If you need to give a sample bale to a prospective customer to let them see how much better yours is and how it's not moldy and so forth, do it.

Make the bales small enough so the kids can feed the 4-H horse themselves. We go 65 pounds on ours and while Dad could lift more, Mom sure appreciates it when she's helping out.

Be honest with your customers. If part of the field didn't look as good as the rest, then you will need to inform your customer of that and discount those bales accordingly. If you screw something up, make it right. I don't know if people will give you the praise you deserve if you have a good quality product, but they will darn sure tell everybody they know if you sell them crappy bales.

I've never had a customer ask about testing the hay for nutritional values, but there's a first time for everything....


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you all for the comments.

I have talked with some of the local farmers/family friends in the area, and they have said that they are there to help out so that will be greatly appreciated.

What is the going rate for horse quality Bermuda and Alfalfa in your areas? I know it will differ a little in each region.

I have started talking with some of the Horse guys around here and they seem open to trying the hay once i get up and going, just need to get the word out more i think.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Just remember, not every bale you make is gonna be horse quality, so make sure you have an outlet for that too, or you'll be in a world of hurt,.


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

160 acres of irrigated land is gonna be a lot to get started with. That being said I'm looking for a place that size or a little smaller to do squares on but I don't think I coulda dove into a place like that from the get go. Your talking lots of cash to get up and running.


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

I do have some outlets for the hay that is not horse quality, but will still need to find a few more.

I'm still trying to decide how I want to tackle this, or if i will at all, but I'm very determined to make this work.

If i was to dive in heads first what would you all suggest growing? Bermuda, Alfalfa, both etc......


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

need to be careful here.....all figures should include lost income from current renter. 160 acres of IRRIGATED hay land is a lot of production and a whole lot to jump on......get your pocketbook wide open and keep your eyes wide open.......
One of my favs was JC Watts from Oklahoma......wish he woulda stayed in politics, way too corrupt for him

Good luck,


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## Farmerbrown2 (Sep 25, 2018)

This is why I said start small so you can get a feel of what is wanted in your area . Just because you raise the best alfafla in the area doesn't mean there is demand .


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you all for the comments i really appreciate it, that is why i joined this forum, so i could ask these questions to you all who do this every year.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Oklahoma83 said:


> What is the going rate for horse quality Bermuda and Alfalfa in your areas? I know it will differ a little in each region.


You are correct, that's going to fluctuate. Sometimes wildly. And not just by region, but from year to year. Right now, there's a lot of horse hay for $100 a ton around here. We are getting a little more because of high quality and weed-free. It was much more than that 2-3 years ago because of drought on dryland fields.

Supply and demand.


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Just curious what would you say the est. start up cost would be (Hay Barn already have one on our home place)


Equipment
Chemicals/Fert
Planting
Fuel
ETC....


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

not looking at buying brand new equipment, i was raised using what we could and what we could afford


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## RockyHill (Apr 24, 2013)

This is part of the educational curriculum on horse hay

http://www.haytalk.com/forums/topic/12303-horsey-people/?hl=horsey

Shelia


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you RockyHill


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## Lewis Ranch (Jul 15, 2013)

Spriging hired done $250-$300 acre. Good coastal in squares $6-$8, keep in mind first year likely won't be square bale quality. You need a bale bandit / baron / or stack wagon and at least two balers minimum for a tract that large. Nicer used equipment 300k plus and a 50-100k barn. Lower end equipment I'd say 100k.


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Can't afford new equipment, either. Not even awesome used equipment.

Here's what we have:

Deere 3020. No cab. Rebuilt engine. $9500

New Holland 499 swather $5200

Hesston 4590 baler $7000

Rake $500

Trailer $3000

New Holland 1032 stack wagon $4500

No tedder required here, low humidity

Nitrogen fertilizer was $375 a ton this year. Was $420 last year.

Like @Lewis Ranch said, it would be so very easy to tie up a lot of money in better equipment. And I would really like to have better stuff. But we were careful when we bought our equipment. If you are able to do most of the work yourself when something breaks, that will help a lot. And it will break!

We are low budget. I admit it!


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you guys that helps alot.

Im thinking that i will start out on the low end of used equipment. i was hoping to be able to get all the equipment for about $35-$40K, and after doing some searching and going to auctions i feel that i should be able to.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Oklahoma83 said:


> Thank you guys that helps alot.
> 
> Im thinking that i will start out on the low end of used equipment. i was hoping to be able to get all the equipment for about $35-$40K, and after doing some searching and going to auctions i feel that i should be able to.


What pieces are you planning on buying? That sounds low to me for that volume of hay.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hi tech nailed it....for that tonnage you are setting yourself up for disaster.........and I do mean disaster. 
You ain't got time to be working on equipment, if you're working on equipment, you're losing money on both ends, devastating and hard to overcome. Lewis was close but conservative......this is all irrigated ground. I'd say 300-500 k to get the equipment and storage needed to effectively harvest and store that much hay.....or take the rent and always be in the black  
Another scenario to think about.......what does irrigated ground rent for there?


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## Lostin55 (Sep 21, 2013)

There is no way that you can purchase equipment for that much ground for that amount of money. Simply won't happen. That isn't to say that you can't buy equipment for the dollar amount, it just means that what you get won't do that many acres and stay dependable.
About the cost of fuel, seed fertilizer etc.. I figure it at $350/ acre. Our tillage practices are different here though.


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## Thorim (Jan 19, 2015)

Oklahoma83 said:


> Thank you all for the comments.
> 
> I have talked with some of the local farmers/family friends in the area, and they have said that they are there to help out so that will be greatly appreciated.
> 
> ...


In my neck of the woods I am in Michigan, horse hay depending on who you talk is either all alfalfa or mostly a grass mix with some alfalfa, one group wants strictly alfalfa 2nd or 3rd cutting most in that camp won't touch a first cutting why don't ask me, with your first cutting usually producing the most bales. the other camp wants a grass hay and will tolerate the alfalfa sighs. And what the horsey people want one year they don't want the next year lmao. The purpose of the alfalfa mixed into the grass is to help fix nitrogen into your soil. According to MSU agronomists when planting grass hay one should strive for multiple varieties/species of grass to protect against such things as winter die off and any disease or insect infestations that may arise. Doing this they say assures the likelihood that some thing is going to grow. They also say when planting alfalfa in a mixed grass stand that it should be about 25% of the grass stand.

Being as far north as I am I like a three blend early maturing orchard grass mix with along with brome and timothy and of course the alfalfa.The idea is getting all the grasses and alfalfa ready to cut at the same time sounds easy but trust me it isn't always as easy as it sounds.

I realize your a bit south lol so what is popular in my area isn't going be the same there. Only common denominator in all this is if selling hay to horse owners they will drive you crazy if you let them...


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Maybe get your feet good and wet on 80 acres and grow beans on the other 80 to make sure that you get your hay established. Too many variables of disaster can occur when starting out to put all of your eggs in one basket. The following year you will have had 80 acres of hay experience on your setup and then expand with the other 80 into hay. It seldom works as penciled when starting out.

Regards, Mike


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## dubltrubl (Jul 19, 2010)

Dawg and Lostin55 both have very accurate estimates and points. We have less than a 1/3 of your acreage and nearly 3 times your expected investment in equipment and still wish we had better equipment sometimes. Our input and operating cost run ~300-400 dollars per acre depending on the weather, seasons, and maintenance. One thing I've learned the hard way when it comes to the hay business, don't set yourself up for failure. Also, get used to not sleeping near as much as you do now!

Regards,

Steve


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## rajela (Feb 15, 2014)

Vol said:


> Maybe get your feet good and wet on 80 acres and grow beans on the other 80 to make sure that you get your hay established. Too many variables of disaster can occur when starting out to put all of your eggs in one basket. The following year you will have had 80 acres of hay experience on your setup and then expand with the other 80 into hay. It seldom works as penciled when starting out.
> 
> Regards, Mike


He would be better to take 40 and leave the rest with the renter.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I think you could get in for 100k, maybe even a little less if one devotes a lot of time to finding deals on equipment. Biggest thing is you need to run cheap tractors. Good baler and bale handling equipment would be an absolute must have. The equipment you can run will also be affected by the availability and price of custom work in the area. It's a lot easier to risk cheap equipment when you have a list of people to call to finish a job that you can't complete.

I agree though about starting with less than the 160. That's a big chunk to bite off.


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## Cmm (Jun 5, 2016)

Wow jealous
160 of small sq under pivot. I dream of that!!!!
Get ready to handle about 20,000 bales
Gonna be a big out lay of cash up front for equipment

160 of hay is like farming 5000ac of row crops
You gonna be busy

To start with I would split the field in half

See if the farmer would keep 80
I would jump on 80 first see if I could move over 10,000 at a profit and labor etc

Hay is no joke when it's go time!
It don't care who has a meeting, who has a dr appt , who has a real job etc 
Again I'm jealous good luck!


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Nothing I know of is as frustrating as working on a baler when the baler needs to be working. Hay has to be baled when ready. With the investment you will have in getting hay established I would not depend on a used baler unless I had seen it bale and knew the previous owner.


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## qcfarms (Dec 14, 2014)

OK83,

I'm in your neck of the woods just about 15 miles NW of Shawnee. Under a spigot, I think you could get 5 tons per acre on the Midland 99 and 6 tons per acre on the Alfalfa. That would equate to 400 tons of bermuda and 480 tons of Alfalfa and I think both of these are somewhat conservative. If you make 50lb bermuda bales that is 16,000 bales. If you make 80lb bales of alfalfa that would be 12,000 bales. That's a bunch of hay.

To get that much hay there will be a lot of inputs. I would estimate $15-$20 per acre each time you spray. You typically get non-desirables (weeds) in the bermuda and always have bugs in the alfalfa. On my common bermuda fields I spray in Feb-Mar timeframe and then after the first cut. I've been doing this now for 5 yrs and I still would not say that I have premium bermuda hay. I still battle johnson grass, horse nettle, blackberry, and some sandburs. Keep in mind that these were not clean fields when I started but I have a heck of a time keeping weeds out. I still sell to horse folks all the time but I would not consider it premium horse quality hay. To get all your hay in the barn or on flatbeds or both is going to take effort assuming you have storage available . If you pay haulers to move hay into the barn look at $1 per bale. If you accumulate/grapple then there is time associated there. I can accumulate and grapple about 150 bales per hr which is not to bad for my small operation but with a big operation that you are looking at it would not be viable. You would almost need a bale bandit or something similar but then the prices go up. Your fertilizer bill will be an expense as I understand that the Midland 99 likes the nitrogen not to mention that you will probably need a pretty good dose of P & K in the fall. Right now urea is running $400 a ton and I would guess that you would top dress 100-200 lbs per acre per cut.

If you want to see some nice Midland 99 fields then take the road that runs between Dale and McLoud....there are a couple of fields that are pretty nice. I know that a lot of the alfalfa in the Mcloud bottom is put up in large square bales but that takes some big equipment. Good luck on your endeavor!


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

You guys are blowing me away with your production numbers.

Here, I cut the grass one time. One and done. Alfalfa is one and then a little bit. I woke up last week one morning and it was 27 degrees. That's right. 27 degrees in July.

After seeing the type of numbers you guys are able to achieve in warmer climates, you would have to have better equipment than I have. It will take me several years to put that much wear and tear on a baler.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

My thinking is even more conservative, I would start with 20 acres (either Ber or Alf).

Some of the rational includes:


learning curve of putting up hay, while dealing with numerous variables
developing market in YOUR area for YOUR product
still have large rent income from rented portion
ability to continue to expand (as market is developed)
ability to cash flow equipment (as sales increase)
learning the 'fixes' to bugs/weeds in YOUR area
the ability to get the experience labor force in place

Unless a 'rich' uncle has left you a sizable chunk of change, the equipment / fertilizer / chemical costs that have been pointed out is pretty sizable (pushing a half a million), IMHO To suddenly add 16-20K bales of hay to an area, you will be 'taking' customers from someone, possibly flooding the market, pushing prices (profits) down.

In case you could not tell I am almost quoting the story of the turtle (tortoises) and hare, who wins the race?

My two cents.

Larry


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

gosh said:


> You guys are blowing me away with your production numbers.
> 
> Here, I cut the grass one time. One and done. Alfalfa is one and then a little bit. I woke up last week one morning and it was 27 degrees. That's right. 27 degrees in July.
> 
> After seeing the type of numbers you guys are able to achieve in warmer climates, you would have to have better equipment than I have. It will take me several years to put that much wear and tear on a baler.


It's the moisture gosh, more than the warmth.

Regards, Mike


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Vol said:


> It's the moisture gosh, more than the warmth.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I have wondered about that. I've tinkered around with irrigating and cutting a little higher. I'm not through experimenting yet, but I'm not encouraged so far....


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## qcfarms (Dec 14, 2014)

gosh said:


> I have wondered about that. I've tinkered around with irrigating and cutting a little higher. I'm not through experimenting yet, but I'm not encouraged so far....


If we get rain at the right times we will begin cutting alfalfa around mid April and every 30 days after that thru Oct. I just finished my 4th cut of alfalfa this week. As far as bermuda we typically cut around Memorial Day, 4th of July, and sometime after Labor Day. Like Vol said.....you gotta have the water and it needs to be at the right time. This year I'll only get two cuttings of Bermuda due to cool spring temps and the way the rain came.

My Grandad had a ranch on the western slope of Colorado around Paonia some years back and I think he only got 2 cuttings of alfalfa per year and that was irrigated. Interesting how altitude, growing days, temps, and water all play a role in what happens in the hay world.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

gosh said:


> I have wondered about that. I've tinkered around with irrigating and cutting a little higher. I'm not through experimenting yet, but I'm not encouraged so far....


Where are you located in WYO.....I would think that you could get at least 3 cuttings with moisture...middle of June, middle of July, and middle of August, and a piece of one in mid-september unless your quite a bit above 4000'.

Regards, Mike


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## gosh (Sep 28, 2014)

Vol said:


> Where are you located in WYO.....I would think that you could get at least 3 cuttings with moisture...middle of June, middle of July, and middle of August, and a piece of one in mid-september unless your quite a bit above 4000'.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Star Valley, Wyoming. Near Afton. Elevation is over 6000.

Not exactly prime farming country!


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## Oklahoma83 (Jul 13, 2016)

Thank you all very much for the help i really appreciate it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

gosh said:


> Star Valley, Wyoming. Near Afton. Elevation is over 6000.
> 
> Not exactly prime farming country!


Excellent possibilities for game tho........


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Given your location and soil type have you considered crabgrass..


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Oklahoma83 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> Im new to the forum, and i had some questions i'd like to ask. My family has 160 acres of Irrigated land in Central Oklahoma that has been rented out to a farmer for the last 17 years and has been taken care of greatly. I am wanted to put it in hay possibly and wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions. I was thinking 80 acres Bermuda (Midland 99) and 80 acres Alfalfa. I'm not set on exactly what I'm going to do so I'm open to any and all comments or suggestions. Also I wouldn't be able to do anything until the first of 2017 but I am trying to get ahead of the game.
> 
> Look forward to your comments.


Additional thoughts:

To make some bermudagrass and/or alfalfa hay for your own use, you already have some livestock on the home place?? What have you been feeding them? Purchased hay? Will you be expanding your home place livestock numbers to use some of the hay produced on the 160 acres.

When considering alfalfa for the horse market, what is the blister beetle situation on alfalfa in your area? "Does your alfalfa have blister beetles?" is the first question potential horse hay customers will ask you.

Are you currently working a full time (40 hr) job? In your area, you likely will get 4 to 5 cuttings of alfalfa under irrigated conditions. Bermudagrass likely will need cutting at least three times. Do you have time to make hay other than on evenings and weekends?

How will you handle the small square bales. Hopefully not by hand. Consider mechanization so that you don't have to manhandle these bales.

New or used haying equipment? For the alfalfa consider a cutter conditioner, and it's going to have to be faster than the NH 488 that I use. You shouldn't need a conditioner for bermudagrass.

Other equipment needed for alfalfa will be a tedder.

If you plan on growing alfalfa in 2017, you should consider seeding it this fall in your location. It's more expensive, but consider Roundup Ready alfalfa. None of my clients have ever asked or been concerned that our alfalfa is RR. Weed control in RR alfalfa is so much easier. What variety will you choose?

As a backup, can you hire a custom hay baler for the first year or two until you obtain the equipment to do it yourself?

OK83, you have so many questions to find answers for as you start up this new venture. It's going to take a lot of time $ to get started.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

gosh said:


> Star Valley, Wyoming. Near Afton. Elevation is over 6000.
> 
> Not exactly prime farming country!


Makes it tougher, no doubt.

Regards, Mike


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