# fence posts



## Richardin52

I'm putting up quite a bit of high tinsel fence this summer. NRCS is paying me to fence off two streams so the cows won't get into them. Anyway the farm is certified organic for hay and vegetables but not for cattle but if I ever want to certify my beef I cannot use PT posts.

A few years back I was hunting way in back of Ick Norton Mtn. on property that was sold to Maine Dowel Company in 1901 and came upon a split rail fence way back in there. This fence looked like it was 20 years old and setting in the middle of the woods. Whoever had built the fence set the fence posts into a stone wall so the posts never rotted at ground level. This area had been farmed up to just after the civil war so that must have been about the time the fence was built.

Anyway I got the idea of using a post hole digger putting cedar posts in the middle and back filling with pea stone so no dirt touches the posts. Has anybody else tried this? It will be interesting to see how long they last.


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## ZekeTheDog

Cedar is awfully expensive and they are fairly weak if you're trying to keep in cattle. Heck, I have TRUE 4x4 PT posts and my one 16.5H mare snaps them scratching her butt!

How about locust? I think they'll be about 1/3 the cost and would be stronger.

As far as your pea packing idea, I think you'll see the dirt infiltrate anyway over the years unless you're talking a big hole. But I'd say you'd be draining the water away easier, so yes they will/should last a long time. If you're in the area where the water table is high near the stream, you might still have a problem. IN that case, quickset (20 min) concrete might be a better choice..

my 2 cents anyway...


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## Nitram

Zeke is spot on. here in Kansas it is either T posts or Hedge the hedge will out live you and me. My grandfathers fences are still up and looking great they were put in over 60 years ago. I was trained to put rock mixed with the dirt from the hole. Mixing big and small rock of all shapes and sizes, and tamping them with a steel bar. I think you may find that if you use only pea gravel the post will not be very firm for some time and they don't pack well (until the surrounding dirt fills in the holes to lock it together) concrete will lock it in but be sure to dome the tops so water doesn't sit and rot the wood. Another problem with pea gravel and no dirt is it leaves a lot of area for water to set and or migrate to as the path of least resistance IMO


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## hayray

I have seen alot of post set in concreate dry rot and snap faster then anything. And yes, white cedar is junk, red cedar will last alot longer. I use alot of black locust. Locust are hard to find in commercial quantities and they have alot better ones down south so you will probably have to cut your own. The hedge that was referred to is osage orange, even last longer then locust, both will out last PT post, I use black locust, red cedar, osage orange and white oak. Red oak can be used also but you would need to treat it and that would knock you out of organic. I don't see any need for the pee gravel, for the most part that is a waste of time. Use some gravel in wet clay areas or wetlands, otherwise the natural soil should sufice. Large stones can frost heave the post out of the ground. Proper tampering and bracing is the best thing for setting post.


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## RockmartGA

PT fence posts would keep you from being certified organic? Interesting. I learn something new everyday.

Anyone ever wrap the bottom end of their fence posts to prevent ground contact? I've heard old timers talk about using tar paper years ago. Which, by the way, probably isn't the most environmentally friendly "organic" thing to put in the ground.


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## hayray

On my white oak I char the ends that go in the ground, that is what I heard alot old timers did.


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## Nitram

As a side note we cut our hedge/Osage orange at least 2yrs prior to using and lean them up against a large tree to cure before planting them this allows them to dry and harden so that termite ant bug damage is slowed. And the large rock referred to earlier is no more than 3-4 inches which will be cracked up some while tamping


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## mulberrygrovefamilyfarm

I use Geotek with the Mule corners. NRCS approved it in our area, but I heard that others could not get it on the NRCS parts list.


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## Richardin52

hayray said:


> , I use black locust, red cedar, osage orange and white oak. Red oak can be used also but you would need to treat it and that would knock you out of organic. .


Red Cedar and Osage Orange do not grow in Maine. White Oak and Locust grow in Maine but are very few and far between. I use white cedar because it grows on my property and you can buy 8 foot posts for $2.00 around here. Red oak could be used but it would cost more than cedar and not last as long.

Posts around here tend to rot at ground level while above and below that point they stay pretty good. Concrete helps keep a post in place if put in the bottom of the hole. But if you put it up where the frost will get to it, it tends to lift the post through frost action.

I use one post on each corner with a floating corner brace. NRCS requires one post at least every 100 feet. I use iron every place else.


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## hayray

I noticed that lifting action with the concreate. One farm I lease I could pull the post out by hand that the previous renter set using concreate. He had the concreate all the way to the top. I also use the floating brace, faster and just as strong as the H-brace I have found.


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## Nitram

I have not heard the term floating brace could you describe it or post pic. Have made h brace and brace that goes at angle to the ground with a stub post as a kicker. Thank you I'm curious!


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## Mike120

Nitram said:


> As a side note we cut our hedge/Osage orange at least 2yrs prior to using and lean them up against a large tree to cure before planting them this allows them to dry and harden so that termite ant bug damage is slowed. And the large rock referred to earlier is no more than 3-4 inches which will be cracked up some while tamping


Interesting, we call them either Bodark or Horse Apple trees. I'd never thought of using them for a post. I've heard the terms Osage Orange and Hedge trees but never knew they were the same thing.


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## Nitram

Yes after the dust bowl in Kansas they were planted in rows (hedge rows) bout every mile east to west for wind breaks soil conservation. They are about the toughest wood there is. I believe brought in from Germany. Great for heating Burns hot and long but pops and throws sparks so no open fireplaces due to fire hazards. And if you try to split it best to due it while frozen!


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## Richardin52

Nitram said:


> I have not heard the term floating brace could you describe it or post pic. Have made h brace and brace that goes at angle to the ground with a stub post as a kicker. Thank you I'm curious!


The best site I have seen on building a floating corner braces is here;

How to Build a Floating Brace Assembly | PowerFlex System Corp


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## hayray

http://www.extension.umn.edu/beef/components/homestudy/plesson3a.PDF

Here is a link where they describe the pull strength based on test done at the West Central Experiment Station, they call it a diagonal strainer.


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## mlappin

Nitram said:


> Yes after the dust bowl in Kansas they were planted in rows (hedge rows) bout every mile east to west for wind breaks soil conservation. They are about the toughest wood there is. I believe brought in from Germany. Great for heating Burns hot and long but pops and throws sparks so no open fireplaces due to fire hazards. And if you try to split it best to due it while frozen!


While it doesn't make a good fence post, the toughest stuff around by far is ironwood (hop hornbeam). They don't get very large in our area but they do absorb the calcium from the ground and proceed to deposit it in the cells of the wood. If you cut one in the shade with a chain saw, the chain will throw visible sparks. Seen chart once on firewood, it's heat values, coal values and on splitability. Ironwood was listed as "split small and green or forget it". Commonly used for secure doors before steel was widely available. Think castle doors in Europe.


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## hayray

Never burn much ironwood because it is so small usually but I have burned black locust and osage orange and wow, it is some hot burning wood, when it is dry it hardens and will dull a chain fast. I think muscle wood is really hard like ironwood also.


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## Highwater

does the organic certifying agent prevent you from using plastic composite or steel post as well? 
No matter what you do, you will certainly have a greater cost than treated post.
Driving a staple into a locust post or even worse into an Osage post for a high tensile fence would be difficult enough that I would want to come up with something different.


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## farmer2

what keeps the post from being knocked off the rock?

farmer2


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## hayray

Have a great big rock or just in most cases put it on the ground and it is good enough. http://www.haytalk.com/forums/membe...1667-floating-brace-cyclops-fence-charger.jpg


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## young old timer

I knew an old-timer that used to "char" cedar posts. I understood that he would keep rotating the post(bottoms) in a ground fire and extiguish them before they really burned in. I would guess that he quenched them. He sold the posts year ago. Ditto to the red cedar with a lot of hear (red-core). I just fenced a quarter last spring and bought hedge from the East part of NE. The PT are expensive and the treatment is getting so light, I think they are a waste of money.


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## Richardin52

I don't know how long my cedar corner posts will last that I back filled with crushed stone making sure no soil touches the post. I did check some this spring and where the post contacts the ground they look exactly like they did a year ago. They are dry without any sign even a little rot.


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## Nitram

farmer2 said:


> what keeps the post from being knocked off the rock?
> 
> farmer2


Bury it a couple inches should keep it from moving


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