# Steel Rollers Vs. Flails on a Discbine



## Tightwad (May 29, 2016)

Anyone have any first hand experience with drying times using steel rollers and flail conditioners on a disc mower conditioner?

I've got an old Vermeer 7120 with the steel rollers and my father just picked up a nice 1412 NH with the flails, and I used the latter to cut a couple of fields last week. Granted it was mostly short, blade hay but I didn't notice any difference in drydown. I did notice the flail machine didn't crack the stems on the taller grasses like my steel roller machine does, and am curious how they will perform on 1st cutting hay with taller stems.

I need to pick up a newer discbine in the next couple of years, and was planning to look around for a well kept Vermeer 840 and keep my old 7120. The NH is built a lot lighter, but seems to do a good job so it's got me wondering.

Any opinions would be appreciated.


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## TJ Hendren (May 12, 2017)

I have a 840 with the paddle conditioner and it will crack Johnsongrass stems. For just straight grass fails are the best choice.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Have used metal flails and steel rolls (and rubber) and have mixed feelings about them.

Cons: Flail conditioning allegedly strips waxy coating off stems. Works great when it's dry. But in a wet, foggy weather area or the ground is damp after cutting, stripping the waxy coating allows the stems to re-absorb that dampness over & over. This can slow down drying times. This year's short drying windows in the weather rarely allowed even 2 good baling days in a row. So my 4 years of making hay with metal flails revealed this problem-especially this wet year.

After using both, I'd rather crack the stem aggressively, than strip off the wax coating in MY area & conditions. The biggest headaches I have with my fields and ground is they tend to be damp. Therefore, I'd rather let the moisture escape the stem by cracking it than stripping of the wax. The wax coating remaining *might* actually be beneficial in keeping the stem from absorbing water again and again in my damp conditions.

Pros: Flail conditioning is cheaper to buy up front, and my mower can adjust the aggressiveness if conditioning needs to be changed really easily. The finger tines are super cheap and easy to replace. I keep mine in the max conditioning position since I'm in grass hay and need real fast drydown.

I'm going back to steel rolls next time around. My experience is if you want aggressive stem cracking and to macerate the hay, steel on steel rolls are best.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Flails work great in grass hay......and there is more than one type of flail.....just like there is more than one type of roller. The metal flails work great....never used the plastic ones but I have heard a few complaints about them. But I have also heard complaints about rubber rollers also.

I have used flails for the last several years and never had them cause the hay to "re-absorb" ground or dew moisture here.

I think you need to consider discbines with the steel rollers, as you mentioned, and discbines with metal flails. I think that you would get along just fine with either one in Virginia.

Regards, Mike


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## Tightwad (May 29, 2016)

Thanks for all of the responses.

I'd prefer to stick with steel rollers, but after using the 1412 with the steel flails last week they've got me interested. It'll be interesting to see how they both do in some thick first cut hay next spring.

Also curious about the longevity of those NH machines, they're built a whole lot lighter than my old Vermeer. The Vermeer has a pile of acres on it and has seen some rough treatment and is no worse for wear.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

The type of crop you are mostly going to use this mow/conditioner on could be a major input to look at. I'll try attaching a section of the NH Hay Makers Handbook, regarding different condition systems advantages/disadvantages, with regards to the crop that you are planning on putting up.

I think fail conditioners are also cheaper to buy as brand new machine (haven't researched the use market).

HTH

Larry


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

I don't have first hand knowledge with steel on steel rollers, however, my Hesston sickle mower conditioner has steel on rubber crimping rollers. They do an outstanding job. Used a Krone impeller mower conditioner 2801cv - 9ft cut this year and got what I thought was incredible dry down. I did a run-in cut sometime early in May - between rains. I cut the hay at daylight, it was wet from the night before and there was heavy dew. Water was puddling on the cutterbar hood and a mist was coming out the rear of the mower as I mowed. I might as well have been mowing in the rain. I had a 3 day window, including the morning I mowed. We tedded two times and baled at around 14% moisture - small square bales. I'm a believer in impellers - at least the Krone design. This was Timothy hay. I didn't experience any re-hydrating that I noticed, but feel it is plausible and think impeller conditioned hay is probably less tolerant to a rain shower as the wax wrapper is off.

Maybe it's just me, but I also think the impellers sort of tenderize the hay. It just feels softer coming off the impellers vs rollers.

However, I mowed a field of hay with both the Krone and my Hesston side by side and can't say there was a lot of difference between dry down. I need to try it again as I mowed with the Krone earlier in the morning and the Hesston later that morning.

For us - we moved to an impeller vs roller machine as I feel it is the right tool for grass hay. I like the simplicity of the impellers and tolerance to potential roll damaging stuff passing through vs rollers. I wanted a steel on steel machine in the 9ft (- as I feel they mimmick the Hesston rollers I've got), found them in Vermeer and Kuhn. All others were wider. I also wanted a two point hitch arrangement and that left, in 9 ft, only the Kuhn and Krone I considered the MF with steel on steel rollers (can't remember the model number), but is the same as the New Idea 5209 - but it didn't have a swivel hitch and most importantly, no shear protection. At the end of the day, I was very impressed with the Krone impeller machine, it's heavy/all gear drive construction, shear protection and found a sweet deal on a left over new 2016 model at a local dealer. I like the machine and would recommend one. Krone has for free download all kinds of info on their mowers, brochures to operators and parts manuals and youtube videos showing their features/construction. No other manufacturer IMHO gives the potential buyer more information to consider when buying a mower conditioner than Krone.

Good luck,

Bill


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

leeave96 said:


> I don't have first hand knowledge with steel on steel rollers, however, my Hesston sickle mower conditioner has steel on rubber crimping rollers. They do an outstanding job. Used a Krone impeller mower conditioner 2801cv - 9ft cut this year and got what I thought was incredible dry down. I did a run-in cut sometime early in May - between rains. I cut the hay at daylight, it was wet from the night before and there was heavy dew. Water was puddling on the cutterbar hood and a mist was coming out the rear of the mower as I mowed. I might as well have been mowing in the rain. I had a 3 day window, including the morning I mowed. We tedded two times and baled at around 14% moisture - small square bales. I'm a believer in impellers - at least the Krone design. This was Timothy hay. I didn't experience any re-hydrating that I noticed, but feel it is plausible and think impeller conditioned hay is probably less tolerant to a rain shower as the wax wrapper is off.
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I also think the impellers sort of tenderize the hay. It just feels softer coming off the impellers vs rollers.
> 
> ...


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## Trotwood2955 (Sep 4, 2012)

Impellers and flails are basically synonymous. Different manufacturers and owners call them different things. But concept is the same.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

Trillium Farm said:


> leeave96 said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have first hand knowledge with steel on steel rollers, however, my Hesston sickle mower conditioner has steel on rubber crimping rollers. They do an outstanding job. Used a Krone impeller mower conditioner 2801cv - 9ft cut this year and got what I thought was incredible dry down. I did a run-in cut sometime early in May - between rains. I cut the hay at daylight, it was wet from the night before and there was heavy dew. Water was puddling on the cutterbar hood and a mist was coming out the rear of the mower as I mowed. I might as well have been mowing in the rain. I had a 3 day window, including the morning I mowed. We tedded two times and baled at around 14% moisture - small square bales. I'm a believer in impellers - at least the Krone design. This was Timothy hay. I didn't experience any re-hydrating that I noticed, but feel it is plausible and think impeller conditioned hay is probably less tolerant to a rain shower as the wax wrapper is off.
> ...





Trotwood2955 said:


> Impellers and flails are basically synonymous. Different manufacturers and owners call them different things. But concept is the same.


Correct - impeller, flails, same thing.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Had steel on steel rollers in my old Owatonna 260 swather back in the day. Hated them with a passion. Bought my 499 with rubber on rubber and will never look back, demoed a 313 with rubber rolls and that will be my next machine for sure. No need for flails around here.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

If it was me, I would keep right on cutting with the Vermeer until it gave up the ghost......but I'm a tightwad (hey, that's your name  ) and if it was doing the job, I would let it keep doing the job.....if it goes down on you, you could always use the NH......I'm just not in to spending money that I don't have to. I would evaluate every step of the operation and consider whether it's the wisest choice to spend money on a new machine when the Vermeer is "no worse for wear", just my take....
In terms of the flail vs rollers.....legumes are for rollers, flails are for grass.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

somedevildawg said:


> If it was me, I would keep right on cutting with the Vermeer until it gave up the ghost......but I'm a tightwad (hey, that's your name  ) and if it was doing the job, I would let it keep doing the job.....if it goes down on you, you could always use the NH......I'm just not in to spending money that I don't have to. I would evaluate every step of the operation and consider whether it's the wisest choice to spend money on a new machine when the Vermeer is "no worse for wear", just my take....
> In terms of the flail vs rollers.....legumes are for rollers, flails are for grass.


Smart words from a smart feller! (Or is it a fart smeller, lol)

My CPA tells me every year that the cheapest piece of machinery to run is the one you already own. Go with it.


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## Gearclash (Nov 25, 2010)

stack em up said:


> Had steel on steel rollers in my old Owatonna 260 swather back in the day. Hated them with a passion. Bought my 499 with rubber on rubber and will never look back, demoed a 313 with rubber rolls and that will be my next machine for sure. No need for flails around here.


My brother's first swather was an Owatana 260. He still has it, sans crimper. Then he owned number of New Holland swathers with rubber rolls, now he has a Hesston with the steel Twin Max conditioner. I don't ever want to go back to New Holland's rubber rolls.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

I was one of the first in my area to go to a MOCO in the early 90's. I have a rubber rollers, steel and had an impeller conditioner. Like I have said in the past you could not run fast enough to give me an impeller. I am attaching an article that refers to hay drying time. DavidU sent me the article. Page 4 covers conditioning. I do grass hay and that is why an impeller is out of the question. I does not work in haygrazer, johnson grass or bermuda.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

gradyjohn said:


> I was one of the first in my area to go to a MOCO in the early 90's. I have a rubber rollers, steel and had an impeller conditioner. Like I have said in the past you could not run fast enough to give me an impeller. I am attaching an article that refers to hay drying time. DavidU sent me the article. Page 4 covers conditioning. I do grass hay and that is why an impeller is out of the question. I does not work in haygrazer, johnson grass or bermuda.


Your grass is different then others grasses.Huge difference compared to orchard grass,brome,timothy,fescue which a impellar would work better on then haygrazer,etc.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Great article GradyJohn. Should be pinned

*"Another benefit of the roller conditioner is that they tend to keep the stems in line, will lie up on top of the stubble and will result in faster drying compared to flail conditioners. Fla il conditioners tend to lay the stems in different directions and the swath has a greater tendency to settle into the ground"*

I never thought of that as another reason flails being inferior to rollers.


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## VA Haymaker (Jul 1, 2014)

From the study...

"Flail conditioners tend to lay the stems in different directions and the swath has a greater tendency to settle into the ground. Flail conditioners are not recommended for alfalfa but are commonly used for grass forages. Studies also indicate a 1%-3% dry loss compared to roller conditioners in alfalfa crops. They are also less expensive and as the swath is less uniform, difficult to obtain an even feed for silage choppers."

I think that study with regards to impellers is BS. What difference does it make in which direction the stem lays on the stubble for faster drying - especially if you are tedding later. We don't do alfalfa, but while some have strong opinions flails suck when used on alfalfa, there are tons of internet posts of folks using flails successfully on alfalfa. Just about every moco today, including my Krone flail machine, has a provision to reduce the roller rpm for use with legumes. Are roller machines less expensive? I'd need to see the numbers, but certainly price has no impact on drying hay. I see no difference in the uniformity of the windrow between my Krone flail machine and my Hesston roller machine. If anything, the flail windrows are more fluffy and airy.

I don't make silage, but isn't the overwhelming choice for moco's in Europe flail machines where silage is king vs dry hay (as I understand it). I've also read (somewhere) that flails tend to give faster drydown on the first day than rollers, further making them ideal for silage over rollers - quicker turn around for getting high quality hay off the field.

Having said all that, to each their own, no harm, no foul. You got flails fine; impellers, fine. I'm hoping we have better drying weather in 2019!

Bill


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

leeave96 said:


> From the study...
> "Flail conditioners tend to lay the stems in different directions and the swath has a greater tendency to settle into the ground. Flail conditioners are not recommended for alfalfa but are commonly used for grass forages. Studies also indicate a 1%-3% dry loss compared to roller conditioners in alfalfa crops. They are also less expensive and as the swath is less uniform, difficult to obtain an even feed for silage choppers."
> I think that study with regards to impellers is BS. What difference does it make in which direction the stem lays on the stubble for faster drying - especially if you are tedding later. We don't do alfalfa, but while some have strong opinions flails suck when used on alfalfa, there are tons of internet posts of folks using flails successfully on alfalfa. Just about every moco today, including my Krone flail machine, has a provision to reduce the roller rpm for use with legumes. Are roller machines less expensive? I'd need to see the numbers, but certainly price has no impact on drying hay. I see no difference in the uniformity of the windrow between my Krone flail machine and my Hesston roller machine. If anything, the flail windrows are more fluffy and airy.
> I don't make silage, but isn't the overwhelming choice for moco's in Europe flail machines where silage is king vs dry hay (as I understand it). I've also read (somewhere) that flails tend to give faster drydown on the first day than rollers, further making them ideal for silage over rollers - quicker turn around for getting high quality hay off the field.
> ...


i agree that if hay is laying every which way it will actually dry better.The windrow is fluffier and air can get threw it better.picture a stack of logs all layer one way vs a stack with them laying every which way.There will be way more air space if laying every which way.

Had a MF 655 with a steel on steel crimper and the way it threw it back and formed it made a much fluffier windrow that dried better then Any cutter I have had since that tends to throw it back and lay it all in 1 direction.

The rakeing process makes the stems lay every which way also and helps to make a fluffy windrow because the stems are every which way.


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

Ive been using a MOCO with tri lobe rollers ,,, steel on steel,. I wouldn't use anything else now. Ive tried flail and also 1 machine with rubber rolls,,,,, tri lobe was the best by far. I use this machine on straight Timothy and Timothy/ Alfalfa.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Chuck said:


> Ive been using a MOCO with tri lobe rollers ,,, steel on steel,. I wouldn't use anything else now. Ive tried flail and also 1 machine with rubber rolls,,,,, tri lobe was the best by far. I use this machine on straight Timothy and Timothy/ Alfalfa.


Chuck, I had same results.

What brand of machine is it?


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> Your grass is different then others grasses.Huge difference compared to orchard grass,brome,timothy,fescue which a impellar would work better on then haygrazer,etc.


It didn't work on Bermuda either.


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## Tightwad (May 29, 2016)

somedevildawg said:


> If it was me, I would keep right on cutting with the Vermeer until it gave up the ghost......but I'm a tightwad (hey, that's your name  ) and if it was doing the job, I would let it keep doing the job.....if it goes down on you, you could always use the NH......I'm just not in to spending money that I don't have to. I would evaluate every step of the operation and consider whether it's the wisest choice to spend money on a new machine when the Vermeer is "no worse for wear", just my take....
> In terms of the flail vs rollers.....legumes are for rollers, flails are for grass.


We're on the same page, I just know the Vermeer is getting closer to the end of its useful life each year. How close? I don't know.

I'd rather keep it around and buy another good used machine than just have one newer machine, that way I can run both in the bigger fields. Plus it's usually a bit cheaper to pick up a used machine in the off season and go over it, rather than wait til my machine takes a crap and be forced to find something in a hurry. I'm not much on making hasty decisions.

Thanks again, to all.


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

A New Holland salesman told me one time he thought the big advantage of the flails were, when New Holland went discbine , there were some soil types maybe something Stoney or gritty or just about anything you can think of where the condition would exist that the blades would pick up little stones and things like that the New Holland rubber rolls would go to the dogs in a short. Of time be all chipped up soon coming apart , he said that is where flails would shine they were much more durable + take a beating . That was a guy talking at a show not sure if there's any truth to that or not


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

leeave96 said:


> Are roller machines less expensive?


Roller conditioning machines are more expensive than flail/impeller conditioning machines at least in MY area for JD and NH machines. IDK about other colors, these were the two that I check pricing before I traded machines.

Larry


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## Chuck (Dec 14, 2014)

John Deere


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## Josh in WNY (Sep 7, 2010)

gradyjohn said:


> I was one of the first in my area to go to a MOCO in the early 90's. I have a rubber rollers, steel and had an impeller conditioner. Like I have said in the past you could not run fast enough to give me an impeller. I am attaching an article that refers to hay drying time. DavidU sent me the article. Page 4 covers conditioning. I do grass hay and that is why an impeller is out of the question. I does not work in haygrazer, johnson grass or bermuda.


We switched from a CaseIH 3209 (Ticor rolls) to a JD 945 (metal flails) this year and we did notice a major reduction in dry down time between the two. With good drying weather, we could bale the day after cutting with the JD 945. I'm pretty sure that with a good tedder, we could bale the next day with our normal drying weather.

While I don't deny that there is some great information in this presentation, I don't think the analysis between rollers and flails is very good. One of the first things that caught my eye was the assertion that the rollers tend to keep the stems lined up. If you were running a sickle machine I might agree to that, but with a disc mower I don't think that is true. Now I will say that I've never been crazy enough to run my disc mower with the safety curtain raised up, but I'm fairly sure the crop is getting tossed around pretty well under the hood and the stem direction is going to be all over the place before the crop even gets to the conditioner.

The second thing that I noticed was the statement that fails will result in difficulty getting an even feed of material into forage choppers. Most of the farms in my area that are still running smaller choppers and taking one windrow at a time probably aren't going to notice the difference (or even care about it). The bigger farms are running triple-mount mowers or self-propelled mowers and then merging 30+ feet into a single windrow for their self-propelled chopper. Once you've tedded, raked or merged what the mower put down, the effect of the mower's conditioner on windrow formation is moot. I've also noticed that most of these larger mowers don't have any conditioner at all, just a disc mower. The units that do have a conditioner are almost always flails.

The third thing that caught my eye was the date, this presentation is from 2003. Though the machines may look similar, a lot has changed in 15 years as the engineers designing the equipment (as well as the farmers running it) have learned from experience. It would be interesting to see this re-examined.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Josh, agree flails as good as rollers in good weather, but with the damp ground we have this year from record 50+" of rainfall, the missing wax coating lets those stems keep wicking up ground moisture like sponges You pick the crop up in your hands and you can feel it. 
Now in a normal year with 30-40" of total rain, flails are fine, maybe better than rollers in grass hay.


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