# Seeking advice on fertility based off hay sample



## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Hello all, I'm looking for some advice on how to use my hay sample to optimize my fertilizer application, and $. The grass is Tifton 85, and I'm making small squares primarily for horsey people. Fertilizing with granular using 4ton buggies from the local coop. 2015 season I averaged 9 tons per acre total with 4 cuttings. 
My soil is primarily 6-10" of sandy loam on top of red clay. I'm interested in using liquid N, but have no experience with it. I do have a 30' boom sprayer with gps guidance. I would consider my field healthy, but I want to have it stay that way and optimize my $ spent on inputs. Attached is a hay sample from June '15 and a soil sample from August '14. Also I'm currently on a waiting list for lime as it has been too wet this Fall/Winter to spread. 
Thanks in advance for your advice!


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Sorry for the sideways picture, I couldn't figure out how to get it straight!


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I have used A&L out of Memphis before.....I was told that their testing was done with a heavy lean towards the fertilize outfits. I am sure that was the case with my test and my local co op whom sent it in for me. I now use a University testing lab and just do everything myself.

Regards, Mike


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

hay-man said:


> Sorry for the sideways picture, I couldn't figure out how to get it straight!


Sent you a PM.

73, Mark

PS, it's not about the sideways pics...


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Look up hay Wilson. Pm or email him.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Hay-man, I use liquid from time to time.....less expensive. There are a few things I gleaned over the years. With liquid, it's hard for me to get enuf potash, usually about 20 units and I like to put about 80. Late cuttings we will use liquid, earlier cuttings I use granular @ 90-0-90. I try to put down 300 units of k per year and 300-400 units of N pa per year. I prefer to use Urea in granular form as it doesn't affect the PH levels of the soil like AN does.....I usually wind up spraying 80-0-20 Hth


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Thanks for the replys. I juggle soil testing between the coop (a&l), and atm university, they are generally pretty close. Almost always comes out close to a 4-2-3 ratio, and I generally apply 80 to 100 units of N along with the p and k in spring and after each cutting. Also using Urea. 
I can see where the potash deficits would be a problem with the liquid. Where are you getting the liquid, and what size containers does it come in? Price?
I'm hoping hay Wilson will chime in I don't know how to use my hay sample to determine soil deficits, and I know he does! Guess I'll email him. 
Fertilizer is just such a big piece of the expense, I'm always wondering if I'm getting the best bang for my buck


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

Amen brother.....I purchase mine from local co-op, not all have the equipment to apply liquid. The one that use specializes in liquid, I let them blend and spray.. Very corrosive and I don't like to mess with it, for $7 pa I open the gate 
Can't remember my exact cost for 80-0-20 but I think it was around $79 pa (+ or -) applied..... Didn't do any last year. Which brings me to another factor.....if it rains after baling, say for several days, and the grass has a good green up achieved, depending on how long that is, depends on whether I apply liquid or not......if the grass has grown a few inches, I shy away from liquid as it will burn the grass if not sprayed with a good dew on the ground, may still do it......grass will recover quickly but for that reason, if I have good growth started before getting to fertilize, I will use granular for sure. I can't use liquid all year because I can't get enuf K, so at some point I have to spin some K......might as well spin N too. I have tried all kinds of ways to try to beat the co-op but like dad always told me.....the dealer always wins.....hth


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

Good info, I was wondering about it being corrosive. Probably let the coop spray it if I decide to use it. I try to spin asap after baling, but as you stated the weather can mess up your plans. 
Speaking of weather, will you spread urea with no rain in the forecast? How long do you think it can lay without rain before its lost? The coop has some coating they can apply to extend its life on the ground but I've never used it.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> Good info, I was wondering about it being corrosive. Probably let the coop spray it if I decide to use it. I try to spin asap after baling, but as you stated the weather can mess up your plans.
> Speaking of weather, will you spread urea with no rain in the forecast? How long do you think it can lay without rain before its lost? The coop has some coating they can apply to extend its life on the ground but I've never used it.


Yea I like to watch the forecast closely, if heavy dews and rain in the forecast I spin it with no agratain....if rain is iffy and hotter than blue blazes I'll add agratain. I suppose it works, could be snake oil but I think it has some merit.....do you have good response to the T-85 in small squares? I baled a bit (300 squares) this year, not a great looking grass in a square but a great grass for feed....


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## hay-man (Oct 6, 2012)

I have had some horse folks shy away from the Tifton, probably from some mis-information they read online. Most all of my customers are repeat, and referred, and feed to horses. I always cut as close to 28 days as possible and the stems are not that big but the leaves sure are! Horses love the stuff!
I haven't advertised since '14 and sold a little over 10,000 small squares last year, and had to turn quite a few away. There is a very strong market here for good quality squares. 
I was lucky to land some large accounts early on, and I deliver to those 300 bales at a time as they need them.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Here is an image from early research by Matocha at TAMU-Overton that demonstrates the effect of high annual rates of nitrogen as ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, and urea on soil pH with depth in a loamy sand soil that has a sandy depth of about 4 ft to clay. The difference between ammonium nitrate and urea is insignificant in the surface 6-inch depth, but as depth increases, urea does have less effect on decreasing soil pH (acidifying) than ammonium nitrate.


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

hay-man said:


> Good info, I was wondering about it being corrosive. Probably let the coop spray it if I decide to use it. I try to spin asap after baling, but as you stated the weather can mess up your plans.
> Speaking of weather, will you spread urea with no rain in the forecast? How long do you think it can lay without rain before its lost? The coop has some coating they can apply to extend its life on the ground but I've never used it.


If urea is applied in very dry conditions (low humidity and no dew) and no rain occurs within 24 hours, the urease enzyme will not hydrolyze (add water) the urea to cause ammonia volatilization (loss as a gas). But, under humid conditions and dew, a good percentage of the nitrogen applied as urea can be lost as volatilized ammonia within 24 hours. Agrotain coating on the urea prills can delay urease activity for about 12, or so, days, depending on how much Agrotain is used to coat the urea.

Most university recommendations still indicate that urea applied to cool soils is a better option than applying urea during warm to hot temperatures. However, latest research from Montana showed loss of nitrogen as volatilized ammonia from urea applied to cold soils was as much as 40 percent over a number of days after applying urea.

Good recommendations for using urea: Incorporate the applied urea asap if it can be done. Otherwise, have the dealer coat the urea prills with Agrotain even when applying urea during the cool season. The extra cost of about 5 cents for Agrotain per pound of nitrogen applied is little compared to the potential loss of nitrogen volatilized as ammonia gas without Agrotain. Of course, if it doesn't rain for 12 or so days after applying Agrotain coated urea, nitrogen can still be lost from volatilizing ammonia. If that occurs, it may be time to find a better rain forecaster.


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

vhaby said:


> Here is an image from early research by Matocha at TAMU-Overton that demonstrates the effect of high annual rates of nitrogen as ammonium sulfate, ammonium nitrate, and urea on soil pH with depth in a loamy sand soil that has a sandy depth of about 4 ft to clay. The difference between ammonium nitrate and urea is insignificant in the surface 6-inch depth, but as depth increases, urea does have less effect on decreasing soil pH (acidifying) than ammonium nitrate.


Great info, thanks !


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## somedevildawg (Jun 20, 2011)

hay-man said:


> I have had some horse folks shy away from the Tifton, probably from some mis-information they read online. Most all of my customers are repeat, and referred, and feed to horses. I always cut as close to 28 days as possible and the stems are not that big but the leaves sure are! Horses love the stuff!
> I haven't advertised since '14 and sold a little over 10,000 small squares last year, and had to turn quite a few away. There is a very strong market here for good quality squares.
> I was lucky to land some large accounts early on, and I deliver to those 300 bales at a time as they need them.


That's good to hear, I agree that it can't go past 28-29 days or it gets stemmy fast.....it can also be a bear to bale. I would love to get the T-85 going to more squares, it's a great grass all the way around. I'm sprigging 7 more acres in the spring, wish I had more.....but then again ifn it gets rank.....I wish I didn't have what I have.......double edge sword sometimes


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

vhaby said:


> If urea is applied in very dry conditions (low humidity and no dew) and no rain occurs within 24 hours, the urease enzyme will not hydrolyze (add water) the urea to cause ammonia volatilization (loss as a gas). But, under humid conditions and dew, a good percentage of the nitrogen applied as urea can be lost as volatilized ammonia within 24 hours. Agrotain coating on the urea prills can delay urease activity for about 12, or so, days, depending on how much Agrotain is used to coat the urea.
> 
> Most university recommendations still indicate that urea applied to cool soils is a better option than applying urea during warm to hot temperatures. However, latest research from Montana showed loss of nitrogen as volatilized ammonia from urea applied to cold soils was as much as 40 percent over a number of days after applying urea.
> 
> Good recommendations for using urea: Incorporate the applied urea asap if it can be done. Otherwise, have the dealer coat the urea prills with Agrotain even when applying urea during the cool season. The extra cost of about 5 cents for Agrotain per pound of nitrogen applied is little compared to the potential loss of nitrogen volatilized as ammonia gas without Agrotain. Of course, if it doesn't rain for 12 or so days after applying Agrotain coated urea, nitrogen can still be lost from volatilizing ammonia. If that occurs, it may be time to find a better rain forecaster.


 I am going to be looking for that research of a 40% loss on cooler cold soils. Onot our early applied nitrogen we apply a blend of half ammonium sulfate and a half Agritain coated urea. The AMS has a delayed reaction and is going to go to work after the area is about done. On a per unit cost AMS is about twice the cost of urea but it has a high sulfur content which is usable and we need it.AMS is also a very stable form of nitrogen and is not susceptible to volatilization like urea.oh


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Using hay samples for a Forage Sample works well for me.

I have used NIR as well as "wet analysis".

DR. Steve Orloff a California County Agent recomends this for California. California cuts alfalfa at early bud stage for their dairies. [email protected]

You will notice NIR only reports N ( N% X 6.25 = CP) P, K, Mg, & Ca. Wet will add S, Na, maybe B, Ma, Fe, Cu, Cl. For my alfalfa I also ask of Mo.

I like the information we get from Overton Research Station becouse they harvest with a precision mower that catches all the clippings. Remember now this is looking at the Full plant not the usual top 6" we see for tissue analysis. So the reported mineral analysis will be higher than for hay. For hay we will loose maybe 20% of the Total DM most of that loss will be leaves.

Bermudagrass as cut will be 16 to 18 % CP.

The usual hay that is raked too dry and too often, baled way too dry Will do well to report 6 to 8% CP.

If we do our part the hay will be reported as 12 - 13% CP. Cut at 6 week intervals.

Your conditins are not that different than mine, except I am a little drier and have a heavy black soil.

Tifton 85 with it's thick stems will have more nutrition in the stems so will be reported as higher CP or N %.

I like the chemical analysis that reports S as then I can look at the N/S ratio.

VHaby can provide you a good ball park level for each of the Elements. ..

Now many growers are satisfied with feed value plus 4 or so elements. My customers are only inerested in Protein and that is all I ask for. A dairy will be interested in 5 or more feed analysis. If that is what they want then I will get a NIR analysis for them and charge them for that extra analysis.

I sample each cutting from each field and average the results for next years fertilizer program.

Give my a holler ( [email protected] ) after Wednesday when I hope to be back from my InLaws' near New Orleans.

I do much the same for Round Bales, but RBs tend to be lower CP than small squares, baled in the same field, at the same time. That is just one reason I do not like to rebale round bales into small squares.


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## hay wilson in TX (Jan 28, 2009)

Tifton 85 is a little slower drying and needs conditioning.

Lay the hay out flat behind the mower. Leave it FLAT until the day before you expect to bale.

Rake the hay at first light, with 90% humidity, measured down next to the hay.

The next day bale when the humidity is down to 70%. Down to 65% for RBs.

Stop baling when the leaves are starting to show excessive shattering. Bermudagrass will shatter more leaves than alfalfa when bale in the same conditions.

HERE we have two hours of baling time. Start on the verge of too tough and stopping when the leaf shattering becomes a problem. I suspect it is about the same for near Huntsville, TX.

Near Tylor has their higher humidity later in the day than here.

Go to Big Springs, west Texas and you may go a week without enough humidity to bale hay with any quality. We are that way some years HERE during July and August. 2007 we went thru July and August with the ground and air too wet to bale hay.


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