# SURVEY: visually, which hay looks better?



## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

*Which hay is better*​
*Which hay do you think looks better, hay on the right or hay on the left? *

Hay on the right4280.77%Hay on the left1019.23%


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Here's pictures of the hay.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

I'm guessing yours is on the right. If so, there's enough orchard grass in there to label it as such. I was in your neighborhood the other day on the way to see Bob M. I would have been intrigued to see/smell a whole bale in person.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Well, I wish more would have voted out of the 185 views!!

The hay on the left is $8.00/ 40lb bale delivered to a local, very highly regarded equine operation. It is dumped on the floor of the barn is 21 packs, no stacking. When you pick it up, it is very stemmy and stiff. There are some tim heads in it.


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

Hay on right looks better to me.


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## Nitram (Apr 2, 2011)

Sorry I'm late to the polls...I somehow knew you wouldn't have any leanings to the left!!! Is there any analysis of his available... PS you've come a long way! And congratulations for not losing your passion and caring for putting a quality product on the market


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Left is typical late first cut timothy, nothing wrong with it per say but its gonna test out low low low. Horse owners here like it a lot, because they can recognize a timothy head. I like it a lot because it dries down easily. Its worth 4$ a bale Canadian (like 3$ US) delivered here if it was in a bit better shape, not bleached out.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks to all who participated. 
The hay on the right is mine. It's probably 40-50% orchard grass and the rest is other grasses. 
I just have to laugh at how much the "experts" pay for that hay. When you pick his up, it's sort of brittle, little green, little fresh smell. 
I think I'm getting the hang of knowing when to cut/Ted/bale. The applicator sure does help. 
Now if I could just get some more O grass and Timothy in my stands.


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Multiple cuttings per year seems to thin timothy out badly regardless of fertility.



JD3430 said:


> Now if I could just get some more O grass and Timothy in my stands.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

slowzuki said:


> Multiple cuttings per year seems to thin timothy out badly regardless of fertility.


I've never had timothy worth cutting a 2 time


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## SwingOak (May 19, 2014)

Our agronomist recommended Top Tim XL

http://www.lacrosseseed.com/top-tim-xl-timothy/


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## Bgriffin856 (Nov 13, 2013)

Occasionally get second of timothy if it's cool and damp growing condtions. Still usually on the light side. Being mixed with other grass such as orchard helps.

Great looking hay JD


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

Outstanding hay 3430! Here it's a race to get it before sun bleach. I would give top dollar for you hay. My hats off to you sir.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

TJH said:


> Outstanding hay 3430! Here it's a race to get it before sun bleach. I would give top dollar for you hay. My hats off to you sir.


Seriously? I didn't think it was that good. Thanks!!!


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## shortrow (Feb 21, 2012)

Trillium Farm said:


> I've never had timothy worth cutting a 2 time


Me too. Spring stand is good, and that's it.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

While the hay on the right "looks better", you said it's 30-40% moisture. The hay on the left looks dry, a little stemmy. All dried hay will look worse than higher moisture hay. It's kind of hard to tell from the lighting, but it also looks like the hay on the left might have been rained on, or left out to dry too long.

The timothy on the left looks like it is shelled out, meaning that it is way past prime, probably in the 6-8% CP range. The OG on the right looks like it just in the early stages of seed production, meaning that CP is probably in the range of 10-12%.

Testing will tell more.

Just my thoughts.

Ralph


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

rjmoses said:


> While the hay on the right "looks better", you said it's 30-40% moisture. The hay on the left looks dry, a little stemmy. All dried hay will look worse than higher moisture hay. It's kind of hard to tell from the lighting, but it also looks like the hay on the left might have been rained on, or left out to dry too long.
> 
> The timothy on the left looks like it is shelled out, meaning that it is way past prime, probably in the 6-8% CP range. The OG on the right looks like it just in the early stages of seed production, meaning that CP is probably in the range of 10-12%.
> 
> ...


Wait....where did I say it was 30-40% moisture?!? Lol
I would never bale hay that high. 
it was baled at 18% moisture!


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## endrow (Dec 15, 2011)

shortrow said:


> Me too. Spring stand is good, and that's it.


Amen Timothy just never worked out for us


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Wait....where did I say it was 30-40% moisture?!? Lol
> I would never bale hay that high.
> it was baled at 18% moisture!


Aside from Ralph fabricating your moisture levels  , he does have a point. Are you comparing your 2015 hay to the other grower's 2014 crop?


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

I apologize--I guess I inhaled too much hay dust: I saw the 40-50% and misread it as 30-40% moisture. Got it all wrong.

Again, I apologize.

Ralph


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

We are a bit wetter and cooler here I'm guessing? If first cut is late the 2nd isn't good.



Trillium Farm said:


> I've never had timothy worth cutting a 2 time


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Aside from Ralph fabricating your moisture levels  , he does have a point. Are you comparing your 2015 hay to the other grower's 2014 crop?


No, they're both baled this year.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> No, they're both baled this year.


Wow, I would have never guessed the one on the left is from this year. Is that guy from somewhere south? I can't believe it was that mature already.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

slowzuki said:


> We are a bit wetter and cooler here I'm guessing? If first cut is late the 2nd isn't good.


I've tried both ways and no luck for 2 cutting. Always a very good 1 though


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Aside from Ralph fabricating your moisture levels  , he does have a point. Are you comparing your 2015 hay to the other grower's 2014 crop?


Really? What "point" does he have? He realized his mistake and admitted it like any grownup that take responsibility.
He never said anything about comparing 2014/15 hay. Only you did that.
I actually thought the Timothy didn't look way past its prime. I've cut Timothy in late May that looks like that before. 
I think he cut it at a decent time, but let it lay in the sun too long.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Really? What "point" does he have? He realized his mistake and admitted it like any grownup that take responsibility.
> He never said anything about comparing 2014/15 hay. Only you did that.
> I actually thought the Timothy didn't look way past its prime. I've cut Timothy in late May that looks like that before.
> I think he cut it at a decent time, but let it lay in the sun too long.


He said it looked over mature. There wouldn't have been a stem of timothy in Pennsylvania past prime when this was posted. Therefore, if it is indeed beyond mature, it would have to be from a previous year. Get my drift now? How his point begat mine? Maybe it wasn't over mature. It's hard to analyze hay via the internet. Whatever.


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## TJH (Mar 23, 2014)

3430 hay like yours, while you may not think its very good, here in my neck of the woods it is to die for.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Wow, I would have never guessed the one on the left is from this year. Is that guy from somewhere south? I can't believe it was that mature already.


Ahhhh, yeah that could be a possibility, couldn't it????
I said the guy was a BTO stands for Big Time Operator. Like 10-20 times the size of you. They could be bringing hay in from their fields, or 500 miles to the south.
BTW, we had Timothy headed out just like that in local fields in late May.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Ahhhh, yeah that could be a possibility, couldn't it????


Well, I wouldn't know considering you ignored the question the first time.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

8350HiTech said:


> Well, I wouldn't know considering you ignored the question the first time.


Show me where I ignored a guy that's asked me if the hay was from the south??
Even if I did, Timothy is a spring cool season first cutting grass. Timothy could be baled last week of May here.


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## 8350HiTech (Jul 26, 2013)

Nobody said it couldn't be baled in May.

Also, thank you for the explanations of "BTO" and timothy being a cool season grass. Very informative.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

For what it's worth here's my take on it. Neither hay looks very over mature to me. JD, your hay looks greener and the other hay looks a bit more sun bleached.....could have laid in the field an extra day before they got to baling it if they are a BTO.....a little sun bleached doesn't affect the feed quality though. Here timothy will start heading in May but it is really June before it's mature and later on into mid June before it reaches the ripe stage. Maturity time can vary widely from year to year depending on local growing conditions and variety.

The biggest thing I see is we aren't exactly comparing apples to apples. One hay appears to be timothy and the other looks to have a high percentage of orchard. Orchard grass is going to be a little more leafy and finer than timothy even when headed out and the timothy is going to be a little courser than the orchard unless it was cut really early before it was headed out......just the nature of the different products. The fineness of the hay isn't exactly a indicator of quality when comparing different grasses.....for example my oat hay cut just as it was heading is going to be courser than both the orchard and timothy cut at the same stage but that doesn't mean it's an inferior hay. My take is both hays look pretty good for what they are but it's hard to compare them against each other.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

I think FarmerCline covered it real well. My other thought is that the customer apparently likes to buy square bales and you sell round bales. Unless you're going to start small square baling, which is the better hay is a mute point.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

All good points, but I only asked "which hay looks better"? In person, the hay in the right is softer and smells better, too. 
That was my only original points and that I was selling hay on right for half the price of hay on left. Didn't know it was a personal matter for my critic buddy.  I know how he "dies a little inside" when I'm right. Lol
Also, in the end trying to show that there IS quality RB hay out there for guys getting started in RBs. Small square balers in my area have the attitude that they're the best when it comes to hay. Some are, but some aren't. I've seen sm sq guy bale up thistle and milkweed and try to pawn it off as "orchard grass" 1/4 mile down the road from me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

OhioHay said:


> I think FarmerCline covered it real well. My other thought is that the customer apparently likes to buy square bales and you sell round bales. Unless you're going to start small square baling, which is the better hay is a mute point.


Just making the point that you can find nice hay much cheaper in round bales. I do also make some small squares, but not many anymore


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> Just making the point that you can find nice hay much cheaper in round bales. I do also make some small squares, but not many anymore


I think most of us know that. You need to sell that to the people buying the small squares though. "The customer is always right. Especially when they are wrong."


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> I think most of us know that. You need to sell that to the people buying the small squares though. "The customer is always right. Especially when they are wrong."


It's funny how hard that can be. My opening statement is something like "how would you feel if I could sell hay you as good or better than what you are buying for 1/2 the price"? "Only drawback is that there's some differences in handling"
It's like they don't care. Then they will complain about the cost of stable help, cell phone, bush hogging, new truck, etc. 
I'm talking about boarding operations that go through 1 RB per day. 
That's a savings of about $20-25,000/yr. if they switch from sq to RB. 
To their credit they may not have a tractor, but most do. They would also have to buy RB feeders, but that is small cost. 
I just found a customer who wants a RB/day and I'm bringing first load up to her in central PA hopefully next week. I hope I can make enough good hay!

The stable that buys the hay on the left tried some of my RBs last year. As good or better than sq bales they buy for 1/2 price. They fed it by unrolling bales, but the Mexican stable workers found it too "strenuous" to unroll the bales and feed them in their stables. Owner got tired of listening to complaining and wouldn't buy from me anymore. 
Would be great if there was a way to "meter" hay off a RB As accurately as a sq.


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> It's funny how hard that can be. My opening statement is something like "how would you feel if I could sell hay you as good or better than what you are buying for 1/2 the price"? "Only drawback is that there's some differences in handling"
> It's like they don't care. Then they will complain about the cost of stable help, cell phone, bush hogging, new truck, etc.
> I'm talking about boarding operations that go through 1 RB per day.
> That's a savings of about $20-25,000/yr. if they switch from sq to RB.
> ...


One thing I have learned I am not good at:

Sales. If I was a salesman I would end up in the poor house. Even if I was selling water to Californians.

I have met plenty who can sell Ice to an eskimo. Not me.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

deadmoose said:


> One thing I have learned I am not good at:
> Sales. If I was a salesman I would end up in the poor house. Even if I was selling water to Californians.
> I have met plenty who can sell Ice to an eskimo. Not me.


Neither am I. I think you have to be a good "exaggerator" to put it mildly.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> It's funny how hard that can be. My opening statement is something like "how would you feel if I could sell hay you as good or better than what you are buying for 1/2 the price"? "Only drawback is that there's some differences in handling"
> It's like they don't care. Then they will complain about the cost of stable help, cell phone, bush hogging, new truck, etc.
> I'm talking about boarding operations that go through 1 RB per day.
> That's a savings of about $20-25,000/yr. if they switch from sq to RB.
> ...


I can only speak of my own experience, but I found that no big bale of any shape can make good hay consistently as small sq. They have always been a problem with horses as it brings them close together and they may kick and bite each other then.

I remember when round bales 1st came out, all ag dept gave precise info and drawings on how to make an outside storage facility (no roof/walls) to keep the hay from spoilage, haven't seen 1 farmer follow that procedure. Round bales were so designed to to be unrolled (like toilet paper) by putting a rod through and pull it with the tractor exposing the inner part, cut off when one reaches the right amount and move on to the next field, again not too may do this. The round bale feeders are a compromise, sometimes necessary by weather etc. Darn manpower always between you and excellence !


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## slowzuki (Mar 8, 2011)

Our second cut the timothy will head out at maybe 12" tall instead of 4 to 5 ft. Field that gave 3 ton first cut will produce maybe 1/10 th of that on second, in a spectacular year like last summer we got maybe 1/4 the yield of first cut in second cut.



Trillium Farm said:


> I've tried both ways and no luck for 2 cutting. Always a very good 1 though


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## gwagen (Apr 20, 2015)

We used to sell hay a long time ago and we do a little here and there now.

But back when we were selling a fair amount it was all small squares, my grandfather taught my dad a good sales trick.

Ignore them.

Any deal they had to meet the terms exactly, pay upfront, cash if they've been late paying in the past, pay the asking price or no hay.

Get the racks unloaded quickly or the hay is going to the next customer.

Always worked for us, always sold whatever we had to sell and didn't get burned very often or badly.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

slowzuki said:


> Our second cut the timothy will head out at maybe 12" tall instead of 4 to 5 ft. Field that gave 3 ton first cut will produce maybe 1/10 th of that on second, in a spectacular year like last summer we got maybe 1/4 the yield of first cut in second cut.


 I didn't realize that timothy would head out a second time in areas that are cool enough for a second cut. I'm used to cool season grasses like orchard and fescue only heading on first cut and then 2nd cutting is only basal foliage.


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