# They Want to Buy a Square Baler



## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

A good friend of mine, life long farmer, has a free hay lease on some bottom ground. The new owner bought the property and it was pasture, had the tenant move the cows.. He told my friend he could cut for hay to keep it nice. Friend cleaned it up, dressed a half mile dirt road, limed and fertilized with a 5 year free agreement. There are 2 years left, which will not be renewed. My friend is going to apply just enough fertilizer the next two years to grow some hay. He already bales 400+ acres with out the 75 of bottom land.

Get this.
The owners grown son has convinced his (80 yo) dad they can make a killing square baling it themselves. They are city folks and just come out to look around. The grass is mixed and cow hay my friend feeds himself. The son says they can make squares and get rich. They do not own any equipment, even a tractor. They have no barn or shed. They have never made hay. They did not know you had to store squares out of the weather.

They plan to buy equipment over the next 2 years.

We just smile and go on. Sure must look easy from the road.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Let em do it..
They'll have some nice used equipment for sale in 2-3 years.


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## R6Farms (Jun 24, 2019)

I run into this a lot, guys think that buying equipment to bale either sq or rd is going to either save them big or make them rich, most of them own 20-30 acres tops and it seems like a great idea until they start calculating the equipment costs.


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## reede (May 17, 2010)

Sometimes education is expensive. Will take a lot of bales to pay off all of that equipment.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

It is rather humorous to those of us who are familiar with a square bale operation and how much work it takes to be successful. It is much much different than making rounds, but some are ignorant of this fact.

I hear some who say, ahh...you have a accumulator so that makes it easy. I just grin and lightly shake my head. Typically you also have to be a better growing steward to have a small square product that sells. Nice clean fields of mono cultures or a mix of one or two grasses. You can hide some nasty stuff in a round bale sometimes, but little squares are much less forgiving.

I wish I could watch the "get rich quick with square bales" develop.....good humor.

Regards, Mike


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## 6125 (Sep 14, 2009)

tax right-off in the making


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> Let em do it..
> They'll have some nice used equipment for sale in 2-3 years.


You're giving them a lot of credit if you thought they were going to buy nice equipment instead of the cheapest used stuff they could find, which is how almost every small hobbyist starts out.

I'm all for the entrepreneurial spirit, and I'm skilled in automotive restoration, electrical work, auto paint and body, sound engineering, carpentry, science, and increasingly...making hay...but I wasn't born with any of that knowledge. If they want to go thoroughly research their 'notion-that-sounds-like-a-good-idea to see if it's still for them before they start, then go for it. But I'm not talking about a weekend's worth of Googling. Personally, I spend years getting educated and it's a constant, ongoing process. That's why we're here on this forum.

If they think they're going to jump in head first without prior education and planning, not only is that poor business but it's also guaranteed failure. People of the latter cloth--especially those that don't heed your advice after asking for it--irritate the hell out of me and my new favorite pastime becomes watching them fail.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

And the other important thing.....LABOUR! Who's going to operate the equipment and make decisions of How/When to cut,ted,rake & bale?

After this where are they going to store it, tarps?!

And like Moses he'll hold up his arms to keep the sun dry the hay till all the haying is done! :lol:


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## skyrydr2 (Oct 25, 2015)

If they are smart they will come on here and get edumacated on the proper ways to do hay LOL! And then they will at least know what they are in for! LMAO


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

So many of us, and I fall into the trap sometimes, are overly worried about equipment, and not other things.

You gotta start somewhere. I did with old crap and one tractor, but if you're thinking about starting out borrowing/investing a 1/4 Mil on newer/new stuff and making a profit, you havent done your homework.

You havent considered:

The amount of ground needed

The shelter necessary for hay and equipment.

Droughts/floods/weeds/insects/pests

Hay waits for no one. It gets cut, raked & baled on ITS schedule, not yours.

Fluctuations in market price/supply/demand.

Equipment is kinda fun (when its running properly) and of course a necessity to make hay, but its only one of about 10 factors.

Everyone I run into around here always tells me the tale of a guy nicknamed "Wolfy" (last name was Wolf). He thought he was going to be the "hay king". He overbought and overpromised and over exaggerated and lost everything.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

I hope they enjoy twisting wrenches and getting grease under their fingernails.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

skyrydr2 said:


> If they are smart they will come on here and get edumacated on the proper ways to do hay LOL! And then they will at least know what they are in for! LMAO


Let me get the PopCorn!


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

IME -- these guys fall into a catch-22 category. With no experience at all, they're in a terrible position to pick out decent used equipment and service or adjust that equipment. But when the fail, they'll be out less $$. On the flip side, with no experience it's hard to justify buying top tier equipment that should run better but demand a lot more of the money being made off the hay.

Also --- they best take any trips to the river/lake/beach off their summer schedule.


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## gradyjohn (Jul 17, 2012)

Hey! I looking to trade my NH5070 (maybe). Send them on down. Its been sheded since new in '10 and only used on 300 acres along with round baling same.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Also --- they best take any trips to the river/lake/beach off their summer schedule.


 Oh I don't know. Just last Saturday I kayaked 7 miles down the river late morning and then baled hay that afternoon. And then almost took the jet ski out to the lake after hay!


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Hayjosh said:


> Oh I don't know. Just last Saturday I kayaked 7 miles down the river late morning and then baled hay that afternoon. And then almost took the jet ski out to the lake after hay!


Haying clearly isn't your primary income or even an important one?


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

As someone who does deal in small square bales I will testify that it comes with a ton of headaches, not the least of which is storage/protection from the elements while the "customer" sees if they can wrangle up a couple of people to help load their borrowed S10 pickup to get 25 bales of the 200 they want. AND they can only pickup on the weekend . IF it's not around 4th of July, Labor Day, Everyone Take the Day Off Day, etc. AND you have neighbors who want the farm tax exemption for their side by side, mini tractor etc so they hire a guy to cut and bale the hay on shares and then GIVE their share away because they don't really need the hay nor the cash.

Funny that folks recognize fuel prices going up over time is just a fact but think hay should still cost what grandpa paid 40 yrs ago.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Haying clearly isn't your primary income or even an important one?


It's not, I work a full time job too which makes the haying even harder. But the people in question wouldn't be doing hay as their primary income either.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> Oh I don't know. Just last Saturday I kayaked 7 miles down the river late morning and then baled hay that afternoon. And then almost took the jet ski out to the lake after hay!


I'm betting you weren't doing 75 acres that day though too.

Not faulting you for taking some fun time, been going fishing every morning at daybreak for the last 2 weeks, but wasn't gonna let that get in the way of making hay!


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I'm betting you weren't doing 75 acres that day though too.
> 
> Not faulting you for taking some fun time, been going fishing every morning at daybreak for the last 2 weeks, but wasn't gonna let that get in the way of making hay!


Yeah I wouldn't be having that fun if it were 75 acres. This was just a little 6 acre field next to the house of some light second cutting OG, about 23 bales to the acre, took an hour to bale and another 45 minutes to stack in the barn.

My original comment was only to be lighthearted, but all that aside...the problem with hay is it doesn't matter if you do 30 acres a year or 300, it still holds you hostage if you want to make quality hay and maximize annual yield. I don't like to miss an opportunity in case that ends up being the only one I get. So it does interfere with summer fun plans. I try to schedule vacations later in the year when I know it will be done. That gets complicated when I have to also hope that I don't have any afternoon meetings at work when I see that nice weather window open up in the middle of the week. I've started blocking off my calendar this year on days it looks like I might hay. And of course, if I have to travel for work then you know that's going to occur when there's a perfect haying window after it's been raining 4 weeks straight.


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

I’m sure there is some type government “bale” out for the enthusiast. If not maybe one of the Dem Presidential hopefuls can use it as a talking point to creat one when they get into office.


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

Neighbor down the road who has bought hay off me for half dozen years is doing the same thing. Nice fellow. Got the 3 letters after his name...Phd. But lacks common sense. He wants to make hay off his 10 acres that he has been cash renting for $1300 a year. I guess he got tired of walking out to the mailbox to get his check.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

You know, hope springs eternal in the heart of the ill informed.

Their motto is: Don't confuse me with facts, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Well dad is buying realest, so how stocked up is the bank? I am amazed how many citydots keep on growing grapes here. Very cool to have wine from grape you grew. But also some very over payed consultants around here too.

So there is a 5 or maybe 10% chance they stay in business. But I am envisioning a 30 year old that has never sweat a drop in his live from work. Been living on his daddies coat tails,and very jealous that daddy let a penny go that he wanted to spend by the free rent deal.

Probably the best all around comity show for farmers to watch. As well as real bargains at the going out of business sale, provided you know the ones to stay away from.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Wow -- more speculators in this thread than the futures market.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Ray 54 said:


> Well dad is buying realest, so how stocked up is the bank? I am amazed how many citydots keep on growing grapes here. Very cool to have wine from grape you grew. But also some very over payed consultants around here too.


If your dad is buying farmland to flip for "development", he's part of the problem. A big part. Decent arable land being paved over is one of the greatest sins of mankind.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Ray 54 said:


> So there is a 5 or maybe 10% chance they stay in business. But I am envisioning a 30 year old that has never sweat a drop in his live from work. Been living on his daddies coat tails,and very jealous that daddy let a penny go that he wanted to spend by the free rent deal.


It reads like you're ridiculing him for perhaps wanting to change this.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Hayjosh said:


> It reads like you're ridiculing him for perhaps wanting to change this.


The son has to be very naive to attempt this with no experience, no equipment, or no storage and common grass hay. The son has done nothing on the farm other than come out and look around. Most likely the son is in his fifties....smh.

Regards, Mike


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> If your dad is buying farmland to flip for "development", he's part of the problem. A big part. Decent arable land being paved over is one of the greatest sins of mankind.


I was speculating all right, but on how or why the son was going to end the current arrangement the original poster was talking of.

My dad had several times he could of speculated in the real estate market. But could not bring himself to buy it just to sell after inflation for the $$$$$, always the farmer rancher wanting to keep the land he had.

Even thought living in the Land of Fruits and Nuts I am 15 miles from town. Zoning and subdivision laws have been in place 50 years and the door to "development" has been closed unless you have billions. But of course I have 2 multi billionaires for neighbors, I feel like a bug about to be stepped on.

I have been around moneyed people that have "parked" money in real estate and they have treated the locals with respect. Only to see there never amounted to anything children think everyone should bow down to them. But with the little information given .......... maybe I should have not speculated on what kind of person the "son" is but if I was a beating man. 

Oh, I agree with you statement about it being a sin to pave good farm land. But on the other hand we dum farmers always produce more than we can sell at a profit. :huh: So maybe we should pave a bunch more, :lol: we can bulldoze the buildings when starvation comes.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Ray 54 said:


> I was speculating all right, but on how or why the son was going to end the current arrangement the original poster was talking of.
> 
> My dad had several times he could of speculated in the real estate market. But could not bring himself to buy it just to sell after inflation for the $$$$$, always the farmer rancher wanting to keep the land he had.
> 
> ...


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Ray 54 said:
> 
> 
> > I was speculating all right, but on how or why the son was going to end the current arrangement the original poster was talking of.
> ...


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Why do many farmers like to berate anyone willing to try their hand at farming and excitedly wait for them to fail? Is it to have more to gossip about at the coffee shop/bar?

As I see it, somebody is pissed their free hay option is going away so slam the owners for not giving you a handout anymore. Why doesn't the guy cutting it offer cash rent or shares and show the owners how that will pencil out in their favor? Even then, maybe they aren't in it for making a living but want to have a hand at farming --- even at a loss. Maybe it's a tax shelter. I have no idea but I sure am not going to play the "I'm better than them because they aren't like me" game. More power to them.


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## KS John (Aug 6, 2018)

I grew up around cattle and horses. Even rodeoed PCRA for a few years. Couldn't make a living there either, but it sure was fun! I only bale for myself and sell any excess now, but I sure have more tied up in equipment than I can ever make pay for itself, but again it is fun.

Maybe that is all they are wanting to do.


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## Red Bank (Apr 28, 2019)

I think the point of the original post was centered around the idea that people who don’t know or care to know think there is nothing to growing hay and all this money that’s in it. In the machinery section there was a person asking about buying equipment and everyone offered up their opinions in a constructive way. In this post I think it was the arrogance of the son talking the dad into going into the hay business. On a side note yes there is a problem around my area with farmers belittling people for trying to farm. I ran into this when I decided to stop buying hay and do it myself. I read everything I could find on the internet and watched YouTube videos for a year before we baled the first bale because no one wanted to help us.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Red Bank said:


> I think the point of the original post was centered around the idea that people who don't know or care to know think there is nothing to growing hay and all this money that's in it. In the machinery section there was a person asking about buying equipment and everyone offered up their opinions in a constructive way. In this post I think it was the arrogance of the son talking the dad into going into the hay business. On a side note yes there is a problem around my area with farmers belittling people for trying to farm. I ran into this when I decided to stop buying hay and do it myself. I read everything I could find on the internet and watched YouTube videos for a year before we baled the first bale because no one wanted to help us.


I think you are right. It is easy to see someone selling a $7 small bale and think they are making a killing on it. They don't understand what that farmer had to go through to make that bale. Long days, and late nights. Staying up into the wee hours of the morning to bale hay, and then go work on equipment all the next day just to get it ready for the following day. I think that I already have got in 70 hours for the week, and tonight I am going out to bale another 50 acres.

It is easy to get caught up into the look how much money we are going to make by baling and selling hay. They have no clue about breakdowns, and spending all day out in the hot sun fixing a rake that broke down in the field and can't be moved. Oh, and the cost of parts. But they will learn.

I you want to make a small fortune in farm, first start with a large fortune.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Of all the costs I underestimated, it was repairs that I underestimated the most. Makes perfect sense to me now, but previous to jumping in, I actually thought farm equipment was reliable ahahahahahahahaha
Lol


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## Red Bank (Apr 28, 2019)

JD3430 said:


> Of all the costs I underestimated, it was repairs that I underestimated the most. Makes perfect sense to me now, but previous to jumping in, I actually thought farm equipment was reliable ahahahahahahahaha
> Lol


 JD you are right and I don't know how to estimate repair costs either and I have a diesel shop as my day job and have asked my fleet customers how do you estimate costs to know how to price jobs to cover overhead. None of my customers have a good formula. And as far as reliability nothing mechanical is 100% reliable.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I help people very frequently with farming in my locale....especially the younger generation because they are very scarce in having interest. I personally know of several other folks on here that do the same. This site is very informative and has a wealth of really solid and reliable information....if one wants it. We have folks that are knowledgeable in mechanics, equipment operation, herbicide application, planting information, buying information, selling information, where to find reliable information, and other information that I just can't think of right now.

Some folks just want to whine, complain, and beech just to prove their so called point.....that's just their nature. Life is very short, only the very foolish waste it on frivolity.

Regards, Mike


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Red Bank said:


> .....In this post I think it was the arrogance of the son talking the dad into going into the hay business.


I too think it was the arrogance that got people's dander up.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

Red Bank said:


> JD you are right and I don't know how to estimate repair costs either and I have a diesel shop as my day job and have asked my fleet customers how do you estimate costs to know how to price jobs to cover overhead. None of my customers have a good formula. And as far as reliability nothing mechanical is 100% reliable.


I think that most of us apply this formula SOYP (Sea Of Your Pants) and go with it!


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Red Bank said:


> On a side note yes there is a problem around my area with farmers belittling people for trying to farm. I ran into this when I decided to stop buying hay and do it myself. I read everything I could find on the internet and watched YouTube videos for a year before we baled the first bale because no one wanted to help us.


Congratulations, you did something for yourself. I would venture a guess that if you went to Wall Street nary a trader there would offer a helping hand in learning how to take money out of their pocket.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

CowboyRam said:


> I think you are right. It is easy to see someone selling a $7 small bale and think they are making a killing on it. They don't understand what that farmer had to go through to make that bale. Long days, and late nights. Staying up into the wee hours of the morning to bale hay, and then go work on equipment all the next day just to get it ready for the following day. I think that I already have got in 70 hours for the week, and tonight I am going out to bale another 50 acres.
> 
> It is easy to get caught up into the look how much money we are going to make by baling and selling hay. They have no clue about breakdowns, and spending all day out in the hot sun fixing a rake that broke down in the field and can't be moved. Oh, and the cost of parts. But they will learn.
> 
> I you want to make a small fortune in farm, first start with a large fortune.


The part you are forgetting is they aren't doing anywhere near the acreage you are, so they aren't going to have 70 hours in a week spent on haying, and they aren't going to be baling the wee hours of the morning (because most of us can't because we have too much dew). My experience is nothing like yours because of the low acreage I cover.

But with 75 acres (I had to go back and check, and forgot it was that much), the people in question would be best off if they tried literally only 10 acres the first year and hire the rest out to be mowed and managed. Even at 10 acres it will take them a few years to figure it out before they can be efficient enough to increase. That's the best advice I can give them. If they don't want to do that, then have a fun trip.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Trillium Farm said:


> I too think it was the arrogance that got people's dander up.


Exactly 
The long hours and relatively low pay per hour and high expenses make some (not all) hay farmers a bit "defensive" at times. Me included sometimes. Most of us are imperfect sinners just trying to get better! 
I have a millionaires kid calling my landowners and constantly offering them money to take over farmland I have worked for years. 
He lives at home with his millionaire parents playing farmer while I'm trying to pay a mortgage and put clothes on kids.
Beautiful newer Deere equipment versus my unreliable mix & match equipment. 
Frustrating and he's winning


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Exactly
> The long hours and relatively low pay per hour and high expenses make some (not all) hay farmers a bit "defensive" at times.
> I have a millionaires kid calling my landowners and constantly offering them money to take over farmland I have worked for years.
> He lives at home with his millionaire parents playing farmer while I'm trying to pay a mortgage and put clothes on kids.
> ...


The ancient Romans had a saying "Pecunia non olet" Money doesn't stink (smell) Now truer than ever. :angry:


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> As I see it, somebody is pissed their free hay option is going away so slam the owners for not giving you a handout anymore. Why doesn't the guy cutting it offer cash rent or shares and show the owners how that will pencil out in their favor? Even then, maybe they aren't in it for making a living but want to have a hand at farming --- even at a loss. Maybe it's a tax shelter. I have no idea but I sure am not going to play the "I'm better than them because they aren't like me" game. More power to them.


No where was there even a hint at the farmer being pissed. He is getting his five years and will not complain over losing average mixed grass hay. Several of us were offered the field originally. They will not find another farmer to bail or bale them out when the balloon pops.
The father balked at the idea of baling at first. The son sees a gold mine and kept pushing the idea. The father bought the land as a capital gains write off. He had sold some property in Texas.

No building on the property.

Not one single piece of machinery or equipment.

No experience in operating any type of equipment.

Saw a grease gun in the truck bed and asked what it was?

Has no market for the hay.

Has no storage for the hay.

Has no way of hauling hay out of the field.

No way to work the long access farm road winding to the bottoms.

I hope they make it at least a year. It is not like a person who had a life long dream and planned ahead. The son asked what a roll of hay sold for? They said it depended on the quality, that the hay off this field went for $35-$40 per roll. The son scoffed and said he knew better than that, if a small square sells for 6 or 7 then these are at least $100.

Looks easy from the sidelines.


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> Yeah I wouldn't be having that fun if it were 75 acres. This was just a little 6 acre field next to the house of some light second cutting OG, about 23 bales to the acre, took an hour to bale and another 45 minutes to stack in the barn.
> 
> My original comment was only to be lighthearted, but all that aside...the problem with hay is it doesn't matter if you do 30 acres a year or 300, it still holds you hostage if you want to make quality hay and maximize annual yield. I don't like to miss an opportunity in case that ends up being the only one I get. So it does interfere with summer fun plans. I try to schedule vacations later in the year when I know it will be done. That gets complicated when I have to also hope that I don't have any afternoon meetings at work when I see that nice weather window open up in the middle of the week. I've started blocking off my calendar this year on days it looks like I might hay. And of course, if I have to travel for work then you know that's going to occur when there's a perfect haying window after it's been raining 4 weeks straight.


When I worked for others, I was a department head so had some flexibility on when I would take off. That was essential. I was making 6,000 squares and 100 roles a year at that time. Now that I am retired and have given up most of my acreage, I still find that my vacations have to be very strategically planned. Just last year, I planned something at the end of aug into the middle of sept thinking I may not even get a second or third cutting but if I do, I will have the end of Sept to get it up. Who knew that we would not have a baling window from the 6th of july until the 25th of Aug. Had to give 30 ac of prime second cutting to a friend to get it off the field. Had planned to get it up arount the 10th of aug. That acreage is what I gave up in Dec 2018 and boy is my life easier now and haymaking way more fun. Maybe getting out to Kayak this next week while I wait for fourth cutting to materialize.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Exactly
> The long hours and relatively low pay per hour and high expenses make some (not all) hay farmers a bit "defensive" at times. Me included sometimes. Most of us are imperfect sinners just trying to get better!
> I have a millionaires kid calling my landowners and constantly offering them money to take over farmland I have worked for years.
> He lives at home with his millionaire parents playing farmer while I'm trying to pay a mortgage and put clothes on kids.
> ...


Welcome to farming. Boils down to pay up or shut up.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

stack em up said:


> Welcome to farming. Boils down to pay up or shut up.


Hang on a second: you say "pay up or shut up".
So like every farmer everywhere (or just say every member of this board) has a rich kid, funded by his parents willing to pay WHATEVER THEY WANT to take land away them?

I think not. That's just low hanging fruit.

Now I could see farmers competing in the realm of realistic prices per acre, but this one is willing to pay anything to get their kids farmland I'm working

"put up or shut up" doesn't apply unless you've got my situation. 
I'm sure some might, but most dont


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> Hang on a second: you say "pay up or shut up".
> So like every farmer everywhere (or just say every member of this board) has a rich kid, funded by his parents willing to pay WHATEVER THEY WANT to take land away them?
> I think not. That's just low hanging fruit.
> Now I could see farmers competing in the realm of realistic prices per acre, but this one is willing to pay anything to get their kids farmland I'm working
> ...


I thought you leased all your ground for free? Or charged the landowner for mowing it for them or something like that? You obviously have no clue about how farming actually works and I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

It's a dog eat dog profession, and if you can't adapt to constantly changing situations, you'll be left in the dust. I've learned that lesson personally.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Many others besides rich kids that are willing to bid up land.Its different all over but it could be a 80 yr old that rents ground just because he can.A feedlot needs the hay and wants a place to haul manure.Sugar beets,vegetables etc etc.And the next thing could be hemp,

One thing for sure we are not a socialist country yet so anyone can rent it no one is intitled to rent it


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

stack em up said:


> I thought you leased all your ground for free? Or charged the landowner for mowing it for them or something like that? *You obviously have no clue about how farming actually works and I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.*
> It's a dog eat dog profession, and if you can't adapt to constantly changing situations, you'll be left in the dust. I've learned that lesson personally.


Nope. I pay rent on some and do free mowing or snowplowing to pay rent on others where no cash rent is paid.

Must be some other guy on the board you disagree with.

That's a really mean thing to say. I DO have a clue how farming works. Just as much as you. I've run 3 businesses successfully longer than you've been alive. I don't appreciate the negativity. My profit per acre is very good. Considering I'm self taught, I'm very proud of my accomplishments.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

swmnhay said:


> Many others besides rich kids that are willing to bid up land.Its different all over but it could be a 80 yr old that rents ground just because he can.A feedlot needs the hay and wants a place to haul manure.Sugar beets,vegetables etc etc.And the next thing could be hemp,
> One thing for sure we are not a socialist country yet so anyone can rent it no one is intitled to rent it


True, But the normal situation on farm ground is highest & best use farmer bidding against other farmers bids. The person I'm referring to is bidding almost an unlimited amount. 
I can see farmer v farmer bidding up rent. That's fair and I've won/lost plenty of those, but having the local kingpins parents give their kid money just so he can get farmland off a typical farmer is not a normal situation. That's artificially high rent being paid or offered that will never make a profit. The parents don't care, they can just pay more to cover losses.
That's an exceptionally tough competitor to take on.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

I sure wish I knew who this rich feller and his boy are!!!

While everyone else is affixing bayonettes and sharpening their tommyhatchets, I would like to slither in and sell him a baler and rake! Iffn he turns out as dumb as speculated, I have a JD baler with decent paint (no needles and no needle yoke, but he will never know) and an old NH256 with no teeth or gearbox for sale that I would be happy to sell.

Then again, he MAY be on this site reading right now and trying to learn before he jumps in. In that case, I have a good rake and a NH baler with poor paint that makes bricks all day long.

Mark

This has been an unpaid advertisement... not from GlassHalfFull for GlassHalfEmpty, but from the thinkers from outside the box...GlassWrongSize for the amount of fluid needing to be contained.

Back to your regular scheduled program.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> True, But the normal situation on farm ground is highest & best use farmer bidding against other farmers bids. The person I'm referring to is bidding almost an unlimited amount.
> I can see farmer v farmer bidding up rent. That's fair and I've won/lost plenty of those, but having the local kingpins parents give their kid money just so he can get farmland off a typical farmer is not a normal situation. That's artificially high rent being paid or offered that will never make a profit. The parents don't care, they can just pay more to cover losses.
> That's an exceptionally tough competitor to take on.


You obviously haven't heard of a 10-31 exchange. Look into it and get back to me, I'll wait here.


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## Red Bank (Apr 28, 2019)

stack em up said:


> Congratulations, you did something for yourself. I would venture a guess that if you went to Wall Street nary a trader there would offer a helping hand in learning how to take money out of their pocket.


 Not sure where you are going with your negativity towards me. Didn't realize we were neighbors lol.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Red Bank said:


> Not sure where you are going with your negativity towards me. Didn't realize we were neighbors lol.


I was legitimately saying congratulations. It always feels best doing something yourself.


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## Red Bank (Apr 28, 2019)

stack em up said:


> I was legitimately saying congratulations. It always feels best doing something yourself.


 My apologies, yes I agree about doing something yourself. That first cut was a great success for me and every year after I really enjoy hay.


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## CowboyRam (Dec 13, 2015)

Hayjosh said:


> The part you are forgetting is they aren't doing anywhere near the acreage you are, so they aren't going to have 70 hours in a week spent on haying, and they aren't going to be baling the wee hours of the morning (because most of us can't because we have too much dew). My experience is nothing like yours because of the low acreage I cover.
> 
> But with 75 acres (I had to go back and check, and forgot it was that much), the people in question would be best off if they tried literally only 10 acres the first year and hire the rest out to be mowed and managed. Even at 10 acres it will take them a few years to figure it out before they can be efficient enough to increase. That's the best advice I can give them. If they don't want to do that, then have a fun trip.


It does not really matter how many acres. It takes the same amount of equipment to farm 10, 75, 100, or 500 acres. If they have no experiencing in farm, well I think they are in for a rude awakening, not to say that they can't do it if their heart is really into it. My point is it is easy to get caught up in how much you are going to make and forget about the expenses.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

CowboyRam said:


> It does not really matter how many acres. It takes the same amount of equipment to farm 10, 75, 100, or 500 acres. If they have no experiencing in farm, well I think they are in for a rude awakening, not to say that they can't do it if their heart is really into it. My point is it is easy to get caught up in how much you are going to make and forget about the expenses.


The same amount of equipment no matter how many acres? I disagree. I have a lot more equipment and labor to make my current 400 to 500 acres per cutting, than when I made 50 acres. You will have to explain this one to me.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Trillium Farm said:


> I too think it was the arrogance that got people's dander up.


I would like to know if the OP actually talked to the son or if even the OP's friend talked to the son. I've been around small communities long enough to know that stories grow to fill the need for justifying one's belief and rarely are they as clear cut as presented. Particularly after being told a few times.


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

What does it really matter? What would it matter if their names were known? What would it matter if Tim made the whole thing up (Not calling you a liar, Tim; just making a point)? The person in the story was foolish and arrogant. Any of us could be on either side of a story as the one who foolishly decided to take-on a venture prior to finding it was foolish; any of us could be the one to gain ground or lose ground to/from someone else. Whatever the deal, everyone tends to see a scenario through their own spectacles-of-experience as shown in the previous posts without thought to how someone else's experiences could lead to a different conclusion.

...and some people are just contrarians who will twist a point or make a left-handed speculation contrary what the "facts" are JUST to make it a bitch session.

Mark

At least it is SOMETHING to read.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

Maybe i am being to thin skinned,but talk about speculating or miss interrupting.



Draft Horse Hay said:


> Draft Horse Hay said:
> 
> 
> > Ray 54 said:
> ...


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> I would like to know if the OP actually talked to the son or if even the OP's friend talked to the son. I've been around small communities long enough to know that stories grow to fill the need for justifying one's belief and rarely are they as clear cut as presented. Particularly after being told a few times.


I have only talked to the son once. I have seen and talked to the father 3 times. One was a rather long talk about whatever topic came up. He was watching them bale and I was waiting to get loaded because I help them haul (free) when I can.
That is how I learned about him selling the property in Texas and buying the bottom land etc.
I have only met and talked to the son one time. He is new to the seen this year. That conversation is the one he asked what the grease gun was and stated how much the round bales were worth.

Only a small handful of locals know they intend to bale it themselves. It is just going to be something that people learn on their own as it unfolds. 
The discussion here is to share how simple our hay making seems, how outsiders assume we are getting rich. Also maybe how naive a person can be thinking owning property is going to make them rich.

One of them needs to buy a pick up truck.


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

OhioHay said:


> The same amount of equipment no matter how many acres? I disagree. I have a lot more equipment and labor to make my current 400 to 500 acres per cutting, than when I made 50 acres. You will have to explain this one to me.


I think he said it as a figure of speech, but the *number and type of* *pieces *of equipment is the same whether one farms 10 or 100 acres, above that one will need more than one piece of this or that. If you have a smaller parcel to hay your window may be enough to bale, but it takes the same time to dry/cure 1 acre as 100 and the very same number of equipment pieces to do the job. Too many retirees think that because they have the time the weather will accomodate them.  It's a race and your competitor is the weather.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

CowboyRam said:


> It does not really matter how many acres. It takes the same amount of equipment to farm 10, 75, 100, or 500 acres.


I can do everything I do with a single 63 horse tractor, square baler, 9' haybine, 9' rotary rake, 4 basket tedder, and 3 or 4 wagons, and small barn. There's a total of $21,500 invested there. "Amount" and "scale" of equipment are two widely different variables. You cannot do 100 acres with what I have, and if you tried to do 75 acres you'd have a full time job haying 75 acres.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Tim/South said:


> I have only talked to the son once. I have seen and talked to the father 3 times. One was a rather long talk about whatever topic came up. He was watching them bale and I was waiting to get loaded because I help them haul (free) when I can.
> That is how I learned about him selling the property in Texas and buying the bottom land etc.
> I have only met and talked to the son one time. He is new to the seen this year. That conversation is the one he asked what the grease gun was and stated how much the round bales were worth.
> 
> ...





glasswrongsize said:


> What does it really matter? What would it matter if their names were known? What would it matter if Tim made the whole thing up (Not calling you a liar, Tim; just making a point)? The person in the story was foolish and arrogant. Any of us could be on either side of a story as the one who foolishly decided to take-on a venture prior to finding it was foolish; any of us could be the one to gain ground or lose ground to/from someone else. Whatever the deal, everyone tends to see a scenario through their own spectacles-of-experience as shown in the previous posts without thought to how someone else's experiences could lead to a different conclusion.
> 
> ...and some people are just contrarians who will twist a point or make a left-handed speculation contrary what the "facts" are JUST to make it a bitch session.
> 
> ...


There's a big difference between an actual situation and a fictionalized event although this could be a combination of the two.

Seeing the scenario through their own spectacles-of-experience is exactly what's wrong ..... Trying to consider other things beyond your own experience is a better way to go. There but for the grace of god goes me/you.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

WOW, is all I can say. After reading all this I'm thinking to myself 'Tim, seems you might have stirred up a hornets nest'.

Most of the time I find the folks on HT pretty much what I call respectful of one another's opinion (even of my stupid ones it seems ). This post appears (in my eyes) to have brought out a different side of some posters, with assumptions (I know I have made my share of wrong ones too) and what could be construed as attacks on one another.

Maybe I just read some comments wrongly, (I surely hope so), if I didn't then I guess I finish by saying, 'This topic doesn't do HT as proudly as most topics do' (IMHO). I generally find most postings helpful or at least 'constructive criticism'. Usually, I feel pretty good after getting my HT session in, this time I didn't.

Sorry for the un-positive out look and Tim it is definitely not your fault in any shape or forum (form, darn computer).

My stupid two cents today (maybe I short changed even).

Larry


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Seeing the scenario through their own spectacles-of-experience is exactly what's wrong .....


Aw gee thanks for determining what is wrong for me. I would have never thought that everyone's opinions had to be cookie-cutter and anything else is wrong.

I can see from your moniker that you like your horses on draft... I prefer mine canned.

Mark

....don't take me too seriously...I'm chuckling to myself while stirring the pot just to show how absurd this thread has become (reductio ad absurdum).

Some people just WANT to be victims of others' opinions; have a big time!


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

"I would have never thought that everyone's opinions had to be cookie-cutter and anything else is wrong."

Thanks for understanding although the cheap shot at horses was undeserved. Some of us make a living selling hay to those folks.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

JD3430 said:


> Hang on a second: you say "pay up or shut up".
> So like every farmer everywhere (or just say every member of this board) has a rich kid, funded by his parents willing to pay WHATEVER THEY WANT to take land away them?
> 
> I think not. That's just low hanging fruit.
> ...


That's capitalism and free market, man. If you got the money you can do whatever you want, however fair or unfair it may seem to others. Farming (or any business) isn't a charity, it requires flexibility, adaptation, and there's always somebody with more money who wants the same thing as you.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Hayjosh said:


> That's capitalism and free market, man. If you got the money you can do whatever you want, however fair or unfair it may seem to others. Farming (or any business) isn't a charity, it requires flexibility, adaptation, and there's always somebody with more money who wants the same thing as you.


Didnt say it was unfair. I just said it seems like thats an unusual circumstance to tolerate.

People come here and whine/complain about every possible adverse situation under the sun and most times, someone will give positive advice, or a helping hand.

I was trying to blend in my experience in the topic to say "yes, I know what the OP means...there are wealthy people out there willing to buy 100's of thousands in new equipment to lose money hay farming- here's my situation".

I have that exact situation, but whats different in my case is he is going OFF his own property, overpaying for basic mixed grass fields I'm farming to aquire them. These are fields I've spent years rehabbing and amending the soil, cutting down/back trees and reseeding. Some started as overgrown brush and now produce nice hay.

I can see the virtuousness of telling me "thats life", "that's farming", "put up or shut up", but wait until its happening to you and see what its like. Again., no issue with competing for land under normal circumstances.

If you lose land to water, wind, fire, insects, weeds, drought or a kid with millions of dollars of backing, its all the same, you lose your fields, but unlike water, wind, fire, insects, weeds or drought, you lose the fields you worked on not for a year, but forever.

Forever is a heck of a lot more serious than a year.

I'm not making hay for a hobby, beer money or to solve a mid life crisis (and I'm not insinuating anyone else is, either). I'm relying on the income to provide for my family. Losing acreage to a spoiled kid who wants to be a farmer for 5 years then maybe a helicopter pilot 5 years later sucks.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Didnt say it was unfair. I just said it seems like thats an unusual circumstance to tolerate.
> 
> People come here and whine/complain about every possible adverse situation under the sun and most times, someone will give positive advice, or a helping hand.
> 
> ...


Why does it matter who you lose your acreage to? I'm just as pissed when other farmers jump when a landlord dies and court his/her heirs for the acreage I was farming, without me even knowing until it's too late. THAT is more the case we see around here.

Recent example --- a 30 something yr old came back to farm with his dad and eventually take over. Dad dropped over dead 2 yrs into it so son had to take over immediately. Neighbors with bigger steel went after his rented ground before his dad was even cold. These are people he grew up with, went to school with and played sports with ...... they even attended his dad's funeral. Not many takeovers by wealthy hedge fund managers wanting to play farmer happening here. It's your neighbors wanting more ground.
Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as the saying goes.

And this brings us back around to the OP ----farming used to be more community based but as we became more able to do most of it ourselves, our neighbors changed from brothers in arms to the competition and the coffee shop gossip turned from who needs help to how stupid someone is for doing X or not doing Y.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Why does it matter who you lose your acreage to? ....


OMG....It doesn't!
But since the original topic is about a seemingly rich, young wild-eyed guy getting into the hay business, I thought I'd share a similar experience I'm having with a young rich guy doing the same thing in my area!

Isn't that what these threads are supposed to accomplish???? You share similar stories and experiences based on a thread someone starts??? Maybe offer some help?



> "I'm just as pissed when *other farmers* jump when a landlord dies and court his/her heirs for the acreage I was farming, without me even knowing until it's too late. THAT is more the case we see around here.


RIGHT!!! Key words being "other *farmers*

I have repeated over & over its pretty easily acceptable if its another farmer!!!

Not rich boys with of parents money!


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> OMG....It doesn't!
> But since the original topic is about a seemingly rich, young wild-eyed guy getting into the hay business, I thought I'd share a similar experience I'm having with a young rich guy doing the same thing in my area!
> 
> Isn't that what these threads are supposed to accomplish???? You share similar stories and experiences based on a thread someone starts??? Maybe offer some help?
> ...


Our biggest competitors for land as of the last 10-15 years are people doing 10-31 exchanges from the Twin Cities as well as the window lickers at Pheasants Forever. Talk about unlimited funds, try buying land versus someone who sold a quarter for $80,000/acre. They will buy it regardless of price and then have someone custom farm it so they can show a loss on their balance sheet. The guy who owns Minnesota Timberwolves basketball team is notorious for it, I can't compete with billionaires money.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

I am still a newbie. First, This I know, there was more to know than I knew there was. Thought had studied it rather well with conversation with two different friends who raise hay also.

Second I know, some great people who are willing to help people like me.

Third I know, even with the best of crops it is not ALL fun and profitable. My tractor went down Friday and Saturday due to leaking fittings both days and one fitting was issue both days.

Fourth I know, at the end of the week had great feeling knowing the task we had meet with the baling Friday and Saturday and we had met the challenge and at least had all the hay in barns, stacked or on trailers but in the barn. Great feeling.

Fifth I know, now get ready for the next time. Repairs to be made, none major, just fix them troubled hyd fittings, trailer lights so safe to run on road, tractor lights so safe on the road.

Sixth I know, soon be counting the money that went out and the money that came in and saying...just wait till next year...

Appreciate all the people here.

A PS: it is possible the son wants to have such a memory with his dad or possible he knows his dad wanted such a memory. One disappointment in my hay experience was my father in law said how much he would like to see field behind his house growing hay grass and it never happened during his life. Today it is a good looking coastal Bermuda field and will be better next year as this year is better than last year.


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## Aaroncboo (Sep 21, 2014)

????????LOL. This is fun.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

glasswrongsize said:


> Aw gee thanks for determining what is wrong for me. I would have never thought that everyone's opinions had to be cookie-cutter and anything else is wrong.
> 
> I can see from your moniker that you like your horses on draft... I prefer mine canned.
> 
> ...


As in a can? lol


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

Palmettokat said:


> I am still a newbie. First, This I know, there was more to know than I knew there was. Thought had studied it rather well with conversation with two different friends who raise hay also.
> 
> Second I know, some great people who are willing to help people like me.
> 
> ...


I learn something new just about every time I'm doing another cutting. It might be putting something into practice I read (here or elsewhere), or trying out new things, new pattern in the field, etc.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

stack em up said:


> Our biggest competitors for land as of the last 10-15 years are people doing 10-31 exchanges from the Twin Cities as well as the window lickers at Pheasants Forever. Talk about unlimited funds, try buying land versus someone who sold a quarter for $80,000/acre. They will buy it regardless of price and then have someone custom farm it so they can show a loss on their balance sheet. The guy who owns Minnesota Timberwolves basketball team is notorious for it, I can't compete with billionaires money.


I have to continuously remind people complaining about "the city folks" buying ground at outrageous prices (for whatever use), that someone is selling it to them and that someone is usually your neighbor farmer who wants the most money he can get so he can retire or pay for health care or whatever. Usually, he used to be one of the guys that bitched about selling out like that, until his turn came along. Sometimes it's an estate sale but here it is more often as I stated .... and we have more and more locals that own places in Cabo to visit in the winter.
We have met the enemy and they are us. (paraphrased Pogo).


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> OMG....It doesn't!
> 
> RIGHT!!! Key words being "other *farmers*
> 
> ...


Wait -- so which is it? It doesn't matter who you lose your acreage to or it does, IF it's someone you don't approve of? How is a rich boy with parent's money worse than a rich farmer down the road going behind your back to steal your leased ground? (BTW - said 'BOY' was estimated to be 50 if his dad is 80.)

One other question -- if it's okay for another farmer to get your acreage, how long does said farmer need to have been farming to be OK? Five yrs? Longer than you? See where we're going?


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)




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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)




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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

If any area is lossing farm land to developers faster than here (county Myrtle Beach is in) sorry for that area. Farm after farm are being planting with the last crop, houses. If it were just my decision based upon dollars would say sell and move away from the developing. Yet our hay is being sold to those "rich" people for their horses being boarded by other locals.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Wait -- so which is it? It doesn't matter who you lose your acreage to or it does, IF it's someone you don't approve of? How is a rich boy with parent's money worse than a rich farmer down the road going behind your back to steal your leased ground? (BTW - said 'BOY' was estimated to be 50 if his dad is 80.)
> One other question -- if it's okay for another farmer to get your acreage, how long does said farmer need to have been farming to be OK? Five yrs? Longer than you? See where we're going?


No, I don't understand you, either. While losing land is losing land, this way is worse because as I said, it's a rich kid who very likely won't stay in farming. If you read my previous post, he may want to be a helicopter pilot, astronaut, veterenarin, etc in 5 years. Then I lose land I worked to put back into service only to see it go to someone who's not really in the struggle of farming and may not stay there, either. 
I would be more content to lose my land to a competitor that is a real farmer in it for the long haul. Yeah it would still suck, but not as bad as an artificiality propped up kid who likes driving tractors today, but may get sick of it tomorrow.

So would it be fair if a 25 year old rich kid sells hay to your established customer list for a buck a bale because their parents subsidize the cost of their draft horse hay way below what you can sell your draft horse hay for? 
Then you lose 1/2 your customer list and can't pay your mortgage?????? You'd be really upset. You'd think it was worse than losing out to a competitor who wasn't a multi-millionaire "playing" in the draft horse hay business. Trust me.

Not everybody's opinion is cookie cutter. 
It's that simple. Sorry it's so tough for you to understand


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Recent example --- a 30 something yr old came back to farm with his dad and eventually take over. Dad dropped over dead 2 yrs into it so son had to take over immediately. Neighbors with bigger steel went after his rented ground before his dad was even cold. These are people he grew up with, went to school with and played sports with ...... they even attended his dad's funeral. Not many takeovers by wealthy hedge fund managers wanting to play farmer happening here. It's your neighbors wanting more ground.
> Keep your friends close and your enemies closer, as the saying goes.
> 
> ...Y.


Again, HUGE difference
This rich kid is taking my land during the course of a normal farming situation. 
In the case you cited above the current farmer DIED.
At least they swooped in after the farmer died.
Last I checked, I'm still alive and have poured thousands into these fields. The owners of said fields are perfectly happy, but when a rich kid knocks on the door with a checkbook and wants to write a BIG check to take your fields from you, THAT is a different story.

What if a rich kid went to your hay customers and gave them large checks and took them from you???

See how that feels


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

JD3430 said:


> Again, HUGE difference
> This rich kid is taking my land during the course of a normal farming situation.
> In the case you cited above the current farmer DIED.
> At least they swooped in after the farmer died.
> ...


Well its not your land,they can do what ever they want.

I would never call rental property mine and if I was the landlord and a renter called it "my land"I'd get rid of him in a hurry.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ok, you got me
"My rented land"
I figured that everybody in the thread knew that it was rented land by now


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> 1) While losing land is losing land, this way is worse because as I said, it's a rich kid who very likely won't stay in farming. If you read my previous post, he may want to be a helicopter pilot, astronaut, veterenarin, etc in 5 years.
> 
> 2) I would be more content to lose my land to a competitor that is a real farmer in it for the long haul
> 
> ...


1) Or the "kid" may farm for the rest of his life and be a good neighbor willing to help you out if you need it. You really have no idea what he's going to do in 5yrs.

2) What constitutes a "real farmer". Debt? Enough years farming?

3) This happens right now and always has here. Some people have ground they have someone else hay on shares. The landlords put their share of the hay on the market for almost nothing. I still have my customers.

4) First, not being able to pay my mortgage is not being able to pay my mortgage, regardless of who snapped up the land I was renting. The fact that it was a guy with years of farming under his belt does nothing to change that fact.

If I bet my mortgage on farming rented land, I'm the one responsible for that poor decision. No one else.

******In the case you cited above the current farmer DIED.
At least they swooped in after the farmer died. ******

No -- the FARMERS were the son and his father. Only one died.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Why do many farmers like to berate anyone willing to try their hand at farming and excitedly wait for them to fail? Is it to have more to gossip about at the coffee shop/bar?
> 
> As I see it, somebody is pissed their free hay option is going away so slam the owners for not giving you a handout anymore. Why doesn't the guy cutting it offer cash rent or shares and show the owners how that will pencil out in their favor? Even then, maybe they aren't in it for making a living but want to have a hand at farming --- even at a loss. Maybe it's a tax shelter. I have no idea but I sure am not going to play the "I'm better than them because they aren't like me" game. More power to them.


Nothings free around here, always somebody willing to pay too much for too little.

Anyways, seen more than a few jump in because hay producers were greedy SOB's that charged too much for hay. Seen em find out small squares were actually real work and you can't make hay by your days off so they goto round bales, make crap, then ruin the market for em because then other people think all rounds are crap.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> 1) Or the "kid" may farm for the rest of his life and be a good neighbor willing to help you out if you need it. You really have no idea what he's going to do in 5yrs.
> 
> 2) What constitutes a "real farmer". Debt? Enough years farming?
> 
> ...


Ok well you said everyone swooped on his land when he died



> "
> Recent example --- a 30 something yr old came back to farm with his dad and eventually take over. Dad dropped over dead 2 yrs into it so son had to take over immediately. * Neighbors with bigger steel went after his rented ground before his dad was even cold*.


So the fact that he has a son has nothing to do with it, Because they came for his land anyway


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

Vol said:


> It is rather humorous to those of us who are familiar with a square bale operation and how much work it takes to be successful. It is much much different than making rounds, but some are ignorant of this fact.
> 
> I hear some who say, ahh...you have a accumulator so that makes it easy. I just grin and lightly shake my head. Typically you also have to be a better growing steward to have a small square product that sells. Nice clean fields of mono cultures or a mix of one or two grasses. You can hide some nasty stuff in a round bale sometimes, but little squares are much less forgiving.
> 
> ...


Hey Mike --

I agree that small squares are more challenging to put up but I wouldn't go so far as to say the stand needs to be better than what a round baler would use. IMO - the biggest benefit of rounds is that they're reasonably safe from rain once they're baled. Small squares are much more vulnerable and need to still be collected and stacked in the barn or tarped.

BTW -- nobody making any significant money off small squares here uses an accumulator unless you consider a NH bale wagon an accumulator. Pull behind or self-propelled, that's what the small square guys are using, not the 8 or 10 bale bunchers or whatever. Bale wagons allow one guy to collect and stack w/ pretty decent speed.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Ok well you said everyone swooped on his land when he died
> 
> So the fact that he has a son has nothing to do with it, Because they came for his land anyway


The fact that he has a son has everything to do with it ....... because his son was farming that ground. They saw an opportunity while the son was scrambling to take care of the rest of the estate ..... outstanding bills, signing over loans etc. This time of year we always see the feel good ag stories on the news where the community comes out and harvests a guy's crop for him because he has cancer or whatever. Never hear the stories about vultures picking over the farm as soon as he's dead.



mlappin said:


> Nothings free around here, always somebody willing to pay too much for too little.
> 
> Anyways, seen more than a few jump in because hay producers were greedy SOB's that charged too much for hay. Seen em find out small squares were actually real work and you can't make hay by your days off so they goto round bales, make crap, then ruin the market for em because then other people think all rounds are crap.


Speculators always jump in and destroy rising markets -- ask anyone raising cattle.


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## BWfarms (Aug 3, 2015)

I have nothing to contribute, I just want everyone to be aware that I'm in the audience.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Speculators always jump in and destroy rising markets -- ask anyone raising cattle.


ding ding ding ding


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

As long as the popcorn's bottomless, I've got all day.


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## KS John (Aug 6, 2018)

Hayjosh said:


> As long as the popcorn's bottomless, I've got all day.


Extra Butter on mine please!


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> The fact that he has a son has everything to do with it ....... because his son was farming that ground. They saw an opportunity while the son was scrambling to take care of the rest of the estate ..... outstanding bills, signing over loans etc. This time of year we always see the feel good ag stories on the news where the community comes out and harvests a guy's crop for him because he has cancer or whatever. Never hear the stories about vultures picking over the farm as soon as he's dead.


What a terrible thing to do. A father dies, a son trying his best to pull the estate and farm together. Meanwhile, his fathers neighbors take over the rented land which the father has worked for years and years away from him. Some here call that "opportunity" or "put up or shut up" or "that's farming". I call that immoral and un-Christian unethical and just plain lousy (I'm being inclusive for non-believers)

You'd think people of character would give the son an opportunity to continue his fathers farming operation. I know I would. I would even offer to help the son if he needed help. If that's the way people are in your area, I feel sorry for you, because that's an awful way to live ones life.

In my area, when you screw with one of my family members, you screw with me. We don't take kindly to that.

When you're in mid season and you get a call from a several year customer and he says "Farmer Bob called me and wants to pay me lots of money to get rid of you and take over the fields from you immediately" is a phone call you don't expect.

Now if a farmer was doing a poor job, died, or the property was being sold, or a rental agreement was expiring THOSE are reasons other farmers in my area consider "acceptable" reasons to try to take another farmers land. That's a phone call you can expect.

In my area, we don't typically take each others land mid season from a good farmer doing a good job with a big pile of parents money.

We wait for a sale, end of rental, death/loss of farm (with no son inheriting and attempting to get the farm going again). We wait for a reasonable event occurring before we make a move on someones rented land.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Never hear the stories about vultures picking over the farm as soon as he's dead.


I got a story.I was standing in line at a wake chatting with the brother of the deceased.He looked towards the door and said the vultures have arrived.A couple brothers that were neighbors to them had just walked in.The deceased and the other brother farmed together and the vultures didn't even wait until the guy was buried and a couple different ones called the parents that owned the land trying to rent it.Well jeeze the other brother was still alive and perfectly capable of farming it.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> The fact that he has a son has everything to do with it ....... because his son was farming that ground. They saw an opportunity while the son was scrambling to take care of the rest of the estate ..... outstanding bills, signing over loans etc. This time of year we always see the feel good ag stories on the news where the community comes out and harvests a guy's crop for him because he has cancer or whatever. Never hear the stories about vultures picking over the farm as soon as he's dead.
> 
> Speculators always jump in and destroy rising markets -- ask anyone raising cattle.


We have cattle as well, all sold privately for freezer beef. A few guys that have been doing it forever got out, newcomer to the area bought their stuff up. Has an overgrown lawnmower to handle the round bales, has em every which way kinda jammed together in a low spot and nothing covering them, oughta make a heck of a pile of mulch by spring.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

stack em up said:


> Microwave or with the air popper? Love me some air popped popcorn. Extra butter please.
> 
> I had my accident August 29 of last year. By September 10, Dad had 2 guys who never would have set foot on the farm offering to rent our ground as I was apparently a paraplegic and not able to do anything anymore. It's the nature of business anymore i guess.


Kinda glad my grandfather isn't around to see the state farming is in. In his day if the neighbor got hurt you went and helped em, not try to screw em the first chance you got.

I've already had one of my landlords get hit up by three different guys wanting to rent his 19 acres as it wasn't planted this year. Wasn't planted as it still had water standing on Independence Day&#8230;.assholes.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Just recently, a parcel a buddy had been farming came up for lease. My buddy asked me to help him with it because it was too large for him to keep on doing. I thanked him for the opportunity and we signed the lease.

Before we signed, one of the area BTO's texted my buddy to ask if he was still going to farm the property. He didn't want to take it away from him if he still wanted to farm it.

Of course, it was the BTO's to bid if my buddy was no longer interested.

I thought that showed a lot of character. More than just taking it away from us.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

It seems like agriculture is in some sort of death race ...... prices hardly move but costs increase so you need more of the one thing that can't be produced - land. Bigger equipment with bigger price tags needs more ground to service that debt so the pressure's on to get more ground. Throw in the land developers telling landlords how much they can make if they sell parcels as home sites and the land thing gets sickening.

Here the county has changed their appraisal schedule for ag ground from every 10 yrs to every 2 yrs and they're just itching to find a few acres that they can not give the "ag exemption" to and be able to charge property taxes as development ground (valuation difference _$1000/ac farm ground vs 7 to 10K/ac as potential home sites).


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> It seems like agriculture is in some sort of death race ...... prices hardly move but costs increase so you need more of the one thing that can't be produced - land. Bigger equipment with bigger price tags needs more ground to service that debt so the pressure's on to get more ground. Throw in the land developers telling landlords how much they can make if they sell parcels as home sites and the land thing gets sickening.
> 
> Here the county has changed their appraisal schedule for ag ground from every 10 yrs to every 2 yrs and they're just itching to find a few acres that they can not give the "ag exemption" to and be able to charge property taxes as development ground (valuation difference _$1000/ac farm ground vs 7 to 10K/ac as potential home sites).


Haven't you ever heard the saying "farming is one of the few businesses where you buy everything at retail and sell everything at wholesale"?


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

JD3430 said:


> Haven't you ever heard the saying "farming is one of the few businesses where you buy everything at retail and sell everything at wholesale"?


....and pay shipping both ways


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

JD3430 said:


> Haven't you ever heard the saying "farming is one of the few businesses where you buy everything at retail and sell everything at wholesale"?


Not sure where they fits but hasn't everybody heard that quote .... attributed to JFK.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Draft Horse Hay said:


> Not sure where they fits but hasn't everybody heard that quote .... attributed to JFK.


From your previous post:



> " It seems like agriculture is in some sort of death race ...... prices hardly move but costs increase'


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

All areas are different we just told a landlord we were not going to farm their ground next year, we got calls from all the other guys interested in to be sure it was our choice. I have even had guys call us and ask if they can sell hay to our customers before the they do. It is nice to farm in an area were the land owners are looking for farmers and not so cut throat.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Beav said:


> All areas are different we just told a landlord we were not going to farm their ground next year, we got calls from all the other guys interested in to be sure it was our choice. I have even had guys call us and ask if they can sell hay to our customers before the they do. It is nice to farm in an area were the land owners are looking for farmers and not so cut throat.


what does happen a lot is the next generation gets the land and all the care about is getting the most $.Either sell it or rent it out to highest bidder.


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## PaulN (Mar 4, 2014)

That next generation is already here in this area.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

We have always been stuck on the idea if you can't make money doing something quit doing it let someone else lose money


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## glasswrongsize (Sep 15, 2015)

stack em up said:


> Oh come on now, this thread can't die yet, it's barely hit bizarre yet.


I tend to treat people how I tend to be treated for the most part. I have it in me to be the biggest arsehole you ever seen and also have it in me to let myself be walked on if * I * want to.

There is one landlord that has been "after me" to bale their hay off and on for last 8 years. Been after me SOLID for last three years. I do the grandson's hay; and grandson and grandma both want me to do grandma's hay too. The guy that does it now takes one cut late July and it is crap hay by the time he gets around to it. I tend to take 3 cuttings from grandson's hay and grandma is jealous that his field gets cut regular, bales removed, and fertilizer applied. Each time they ask me to do it, I tell them that (we will call the current person "Mark") Mark is not going to find out that I am doing that field by finding my equipment in it and they need to tell him and give him notice. Each year, I then call Mark and tell him that he had better get to their hay cuz the natives are getting restless. Heck, I would help him bale it before I "took" it from him. (That's the neighbor to the SOUTH.)

My Yankee neighbor to the NORTH had a baler fire this year; tweren't nothing left to call a baler. He calls me and asks me "whatcha doin?" and then leads in to asking me to finish his ready-to-bale fields. The Yankee neighbor has a son that shoulda been shot in the coal bucket; always tearing up the roads and drinking way too much wobble-pop (15 yoa), doing donuts in other people's hay fields (mine included), "stole" a tractor earlier this year and went joy-riding on it...set some big rounds on fire for good measure to mark his territory. Might have been something mentioned about Karma when I told him I would not bale his hay for him.

Mark

Speaking of "Yankee"... does anyone know what a "Yankee" even is??!! Wulp, it's kinda like a "Quickie", but you have to do it yourself.

There!! That oughtta make 5 or 8 people mad for a spell.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Beav said:


> All areas are different we just told a landlord we were not going to farm their ground next year, we got calls from all the other guys interested in to be sure it was our choice. I have even had guys call us and ask if they can sell hay to our customers before the they do. It is nice to farm in an area were the land owners are looking for farmers and not so cut throat.


Its like that in my area, too. Except for one..... and that "one" is going to cause a lot of problems....i know it.

IMA, we tend to look out for each other, call each other in emergencies and respect each other. I have helped haul hay when their trucks went down, rake hay for one when his rake cratered and unloaded bales off anothers truck when his 6130 puked.

I havent played my help card yet. I usually find a way to fix whats wrong or make it work some other way. One guy I helped did give me 10 acres of trash-land for mushroom hay to add to my "mulch king" empire. I cleaned up the field and now it yields ~80 pretty nice 4x5's per season.

We also call each other or stop by and talk when we "sense" you are giving up on a field, instead of looking at the "money" you can take from each other.

I like it this way. Profits are extremely important, but I wouldn't want to live/work somewhere where all the farmers only cared about the money and not each other.

Those kind of people rarely succeed in life and are always miserable.

Give a little and show kindness and you'll get more back in return.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

There's about 4 main hay producers in my area, and I'm pretty good friends with two of them, acquainted with the third, never met the fourth (then, most of his 'customers' have never met the fourth either). In my area we're always helping each other out, telling others of available land (but nobody wants to take on more). I've had two different farmers ask me if I was interested in a hay field they couldn't do, or take on custom baling for a customer they didn't have capacity for.

Last year, my neighbor two miles down the road called me and said "Rick is baling our field, and his baler is broke, would you be able to come bale it?"

So I dropped what I was doing, hooked up and finished the custom baling job for Rick.

Fortunately, karma goes both ways.

This year, second field in on first cut, I'm about 250 bales of 600 in and my baler knotter is just not having it. Temps dropped, ground was starting to get damp, had to do something. So I called Rick, asked if he'd be able to round bale my field, it was all raked up and ready. I had just seen him drive by with a mower not long before that. He said "let me hook up the baler and I'll be right over." And within 40 minutes he was over and rolled up 24 rounds for me.

When you're in the craft of haying, no matter how big or small, you're always going to need help at some point, so you should always be ready to GIVE the help at some point too. People like to help people they like.


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

And then there is always the guy that constantly needs help but never returns the favor.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

swmnhay said:


> And then there is always the guy that constantly needs help but never returns the favor.


What?? Did my neighbor move to SWMN and I didn't notice!!! Or there is more than one of those guys running around. 

Larry


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Hayjosh said:


> When you're in the craft of haying, no matter how big or small, you're always going to need help at some point, so you should always be ready to GIVE the help at some point too. People like to help people they like.


I'm glad you got your hay rolled up without a rain, and it was very nice of your neighbor to do it on short notice. I would do it in an instant for anyone too, but they're getting a bill when it's done. Not saying you didn't pay him, but his time isn't free either. I could have been spending that hour doing something else to make myself some coin, or reading my son a story which pays me back differently.


r82230 said:


> What?? Did my neighbor move to SWMN and I didn't notice!!! Or there is more than one of those guys running around.
> 
> Larry


He must have, and he lives about 1 mile from me.


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## carcajou (Jan 28, 2011)

Not long ago we never put away balers or combines until the last neighbor was done. Not so much anymore as i find some farmers don't have the work ethics of the past, and figure weekends and camping are just as important. I never refuse help for a breakdown related emergency or health issues though. If no iron is involved i'll trade time for time, especially if they come help working livestock.

When i was doing custom spraying and haying i would not just do the neighbors fields for free. Sorry, my business... you pay full rate. But i'll help you dig ditches or whatever if ya ask. Neighbor was the same way, he was a concrete finisher and he would help anyone do anything... but concrete work.

Lately i find if a farmer needs baling done, ill just tell him come make the same number of bales back for me when he is able to and they all appreciate that, no money changes hands and its so easy and fair.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Unfortunately for me, some neighbors are better than others here. Most are really good neighbors here, but a couple are sorry human beings. I refuse to get near them. Some people you are just better off not getting involved with.

I mentioned last week about helping my bordering neighbor to the south spray his river bottom for Johnson grass. I did not charge him a thing....not even for the fuel I burned. He furnished the herbicide and the surfactant and I furnished everything else. I help him and he helps me. We both understand how long lasting friendship works....and he has done for me as I have done for him. We don't keep score, but we both know deep inside how the ledger is tilting. We always trend towards the scales of justice.

Regards, Mike


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

Vol said:


> We always trend towards the scales of justice.
> 
> Regards, Mike


I don't know what scale some use.

Got a guy owes me for baling so I got him to run field cultivator 2 days this spring.The next day he wants to use my FC and tractor to do 40 acres.Said he'd pay me for that but haven't seen a dime.He could of at least filled tractor with fuel,he didnt do that either.


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## Beav (Feb 14, 2016)

baled for a neighbor when he broke down last year never paid, this year he broke down again called someone else to finish, sad it is not the amount of money it is the is the disrespect shown to us.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I am about to leave and go bale for a friend. Yesterday he showed up with his tractor and rake and began raking for me. He is raking now and I still have my baler hooked up. I am going to show up and bale.

I had a different friend cut and bale 24 acres of his own hay and donate it to me last year. He refused and money.

He is recovering from successful cancer surgery this week. A friend and I are going to cut and bale 20 acres of his that is next to me, then haul it to him.

None of us nickel and dime the other.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Tim/South said:


> I am about to leave and go bale for a friend. Yesterday he showed up with his tractor and rake and began raking for me. He is raking now and I still have my baler hooked up. I am going to show up and bale.
> I had a different friend cut and bale 24 acres of his own hay and donate it to me last year. He refused and money.
> He is recovering from successful cancer surgery this week. A friend and I are going to cut and bale 20 acres of his that is next to me, then haul it to him.
> None of us nickel and dime the other.


Surviving cancer or burying a loved one who dies from cancer gives one a new perspective on life.
It really brings to the forefront just how short and precious life truly is. You spend more time and energy being positive and helpful. Less time trashing and saying no to others that need help.

That's a heck of a neighbor you got there, Tim. 
He knows where it's at and what it's all about. Good on you to help him, too.


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

stack em up said:


> I'm glad you got your hay rolled up without a rain, and it was very nice of your neighbor to do it on short notice. I would do it in an instant for anyone too, but they're getting a bill when it's done. Not saying you didn't pay him, but his time isn't free either. I could have been spending that hour doing something else to make myself some coin, or reading my son a story which pays me back differently.


The different hay producers will help each other out, but we don't do it for free and nobody expects it for free. It's a cost of doing business. I was just elated when he said he could get right over and roll up the bales. At that point I didn't care how much it cost, though he only charged $6.25/bale.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

r82230 said:


> What?? Did my neighbor move to SWMN and I didn't notice!!! Or there is more than one of those guys running around.
> 
> Larry


I had a "friend" who was like this. Him, needed firewood. I had some hardwoods hurricane had land down so sure. Him, Oh, I don't have a saw. Ok I have two and even helped him cut the trees into firewood. Him, oh I don't have any way to haul it. I said you can use my pickup and dump trailer. Him, will fill it back up with gas....yep still waiting.

He began to need to borrow some money for this or that reason. Nothing large, I am not a bank. Finally he stopped when I said something along the line of "I can only afford to loan so and so", which was about 1/3 what he asked for.

He had promised he would help me with this and that and all the experience he with tractor and such. Even when I did tell him I was doing something he was able suppose to know how to, he never showed up. Nope not a farmer. So it not just farmers it is in all walks.

Heard something once that have used a time or two and it is a very polite way to tell someone NO. "That is a real compliment to ask me to do what ever. You must really respect my talent or what ever is proper. Sure wish I had the time or what ever again is proper but I must pass. However you really paid me a great compliment even considering me.


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## Palmettokat (Jul 10, 2017)

Did not want to imply this was related to above post:

Farming is no difference than any other industry. There are great and sorry people in it. Will tell you from my insurance business know the more you touch the landowner the better relationship you will have. Over the years things I found that people liked and really did not cost much.

With my companies I try to just stop by and say hello and be sure all is well. Have done that and walk in on another agent trying to steal my business. Call it stealing for he was not being honest about his product. Send birthday cards to them Not on their birthday but two weeks in adance. That way they are noticed and that is honeslty why you are doing it. Years ago my wife made fudge, peanut brittle but the favorite was pecan brittle and she would put it in Christmas tins and I would take a day or two and carry to my company clients. Always got sales off that as just casually taking the gift to them and wishing them a Merry Christmas and thanking them for their business almost always someone thought of something they wanted or needed in insurance.

Insurance has changed over the last few years greatly and some of that not near as easy to do but gives you the idea. Talk with the landowners, find out what they like, what they wish they had or could do and just surprise them with something that fits with their hobby or need. Make you notes on them, make them your friends and it will be easy. That way you will know what is going on before it goes on normally.

Two years ago had a brand new customer ask could he exercise his bird dog in a corn field with stalks disked in. I offered my recently sprigged grass field to him, that fall he brought me think four new customers. Cost me nothing to allow him to do that. When the field was growing for hay he knew to keep the dog off.


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## Draft Horse Hay (May 15, 2014)

I ended up with a pretty good crop of hay this year and filled all my orders plus my own needs. A wealthy retired neighbor (sold some family Ford-NH dealerships) who has a crap hayfield of his (overtaken by ventanata [like cheat grass]), asked if he could buy some of my grass in the swath so he could round bale it. Sure thing. $20/bale ..... he got 41 bales off maybe 8 ac. Haven't seen a dime yet. He did this a couple of years ago too and did the same thing. Paid me in October!

Also, I swathed soon after he had asked about me doing it, that hay sat there in the windrow for at least a week. I thought he must have been busy doing something more pressing and then found out he went to some UTV-sidebyside races.


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## RockmartGA (Jun 29, 2011)

JD3430 said:


> That's a heck of a neighbor you got there, Tim.


Old joke:

A guy was looking at a house to buy and saw a neighbor out in the yard. He went up to the elderly man and made some small talk and then asked him "What are the neighbors like around here?"

The old guy looked at him and responded: "Depends. What are the neighbors like where you are from?"


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

Neighbor down the road who wants to bale his 10 acres. His plans are to build a hay shed and buy the equipment. He asked if i could help him out until he gets his equipment and building in place. So I worked up a spreadsheet using custom rate. I figured 800 small squares on 10 acres (a little generous) plus machinery costs, etc. After filling his needs, selling the rest and paying me he is $20 in the red. I will be giving him the spreadsheet next time he brings up the conversation of "helping him out."


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## Trillium Farm (Dec 18, 2014)

weatherman said:


> Neighbor down the road who wants to bale his 10 acres. His plans are to build a hay shed and buy the equipment. He asked if i could help him out until he gets his equipment and building in place. So I worked up a spreadsheet using custom rate. I figured 800 small squares on 10 acres (a little generous) plus machinery costs, etc. After filling his needs, selling the rest and paying me he is $20 in the red. I will be giving him the spreadsheet next time he brings up the conversation of "helping him out."


Well 800 bales for 10 ac is not a good yeld, even a decent stand will give you 100 bales per acre and excellent stand a lot more. Are the soil & stand not good?


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

weatherman said:


> Neighbor down the road who wants to bale his 10 acres. His plans are to build a hay shed and buy the equipment. He asked if i could help him out until he gets his equipment and building in place. So I worked up a spreadsheet using custom rate. I figured 800 small squares on 10 acres (a little generous) plus machinery costs, etc. After filling his needs, selling the rest and paying me he is $20 in the red. I will be giving him the spreadsheet next time he brings up the conversation of "helping him out."


This isn't how it works, haven't you learned that from this thread? He is entitled to your free machinery and free labor, because making money isn't what it's about. It's all about those warm fuzzies. I just saw
I'm Walmart you can buy a Snickers with 1,000,000,000 warm fuzzies.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Like that famous MN congresswoman said:

* "It's all about the Benjamin's baby" *


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## Hayjosh (Mar 24, 2016)

A 5 gallon bucket of popcorn goes by faster than you think. I had two milk two cows dry just to supply you fatties with all the butter you require.


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## Ray 54 (Aug 2, 2014)

I have been blessed with all kind of neighbors, some of the best and a few that are in the running for worst. One started trading little things back and forth, and after helping with a bigger repair job I asked what I owed him. His answer was were not keeping track. It has been that way for 40 years now. We have had some really good times sharing machines and labor,and we each think we must owe the other.  Just the other day he asked what he owed me,and since I think I owe him, I told if your good you sure don't owe me. So am I think we're good for another 40 years.

Another I cut and baled 20 acres for 4 years ago,keeps forgetting to pay for it.So 2 years ago asked if I would plant it again. To which I said nothing to talk about until last time is payed for, to which he said I will send you the money. Well I am still waiting, but he forgets and called at planting time last year again.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

Ray 54 said:


> I have been blessed with all kind of neighbors, some of the best and a few that are in the running for worst. One started trading little things back and forth, and after helping with a bigger repair job I asked what I owed him. His answer was were not keeping track. It has been that way for 40 years now. We have had some really good times sharing machines and labor,and we each think we must owe the other.  Just the other day he asked what he owed me,and since I think I owe him, I told if your good you sure don't owe me. So am I think we're good for another 40 years.
> 
> Another I cut and baled 20 acres for 4 years ago,keeps forgetting to pay for it.So 2 years ago asked if I would plant it again. To which I said nothing to talk about until last time is payed for, to which he said I will send you the money. Well I am still waiting, but he forgets and called at planting time last year again.


I moved onto my road 10 years ago. At the end of the road is an elderly couple who own a really nice small farm, 5 black angus, fields to cut, long driveways of snow to plow, buildings and fences to fix, etc.
In the beginning, he would offer me and other area contractors small tasks to do. I did a few of them for him for free to gain his confidence in me and show him I'm not going to nickel and dime him.

In just a few years, I was selling him hay and cutting his fields. Ten years later, he is a $10,000 a year loyal customer who I do a lot of work for. I plow his driveways, sell him hay, mow his fields and do a lot of other work. He even gives me free beef from his herd. My daughter and his granddaughter have become life long friends

If I had charged him $100 for the small jobs 10 years ago, I'd still be competing with other area contractors for the $10,000 in work I am now virtually guaranteed.

Little kindness and warm & fuzziness goes a long way.


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

JD3430 said:


> I moved onto my road 10 years ago. At the end of the road is an elderly couple who own a really nice small farm, 5 black angus, fields to cut, long driveways of snow to plow, buildings and fences to fix, etc.
> In the beginning, he would offer me and other area contractors small tasks to do. I did a few of them for him for free to gain his confidence in me and show him I'm not going to nickel and dime him.
> In just a few years, I was selling him hay and cutting his fields. Ten years later, he is a $10,000 a year loyal customer who I do a lot of work for. I plow his driveways, sell him hay, mow his fields and do a lot of other work. He even gives me free beef from his herd. My daughter and his granddaughter have become life long friends
> If I had charged him $100 for the small jobs 10 years ago, I'd still be competing with other area contractors for the $10,000 in work I am now virtually guaranteed.
> Little kindness and warm & fuzziness goes a long way.


So you did those first jobs with payment in mind, just in a different form and not directly related to said job. I fully understand doing things like that. I would do the same thing, I'm just more blatant about it.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

No stack me up, I did those jobs as favors and no payment involved, but I also knew it could get me future work. In fact, 10 years ago I wasn't even farming. I fixed fences, helped him collect cattle when they escaped, etc. It was a risk that I'd never get a dimes worth of work, but it paid off.
Either way, I would have done them free.
In fact, I have done many free favors for others knowing there's a good possibility I would get nothing in return. But it always seems to pay me back. 
My pastor says to give something to someone you know can't return the favor. I have done that dozens of times and it's a wonderful feeling. 
I have taught hundreds of kids how to play lacrosse, box and play football. Only later did I get paid for it and donated it back to the school.
In return, customers (parents of kids I coached, taught) have come to me for all kinds of work as a way to say thanks.

The way I see it, the dumbest thing you could do is send someone a ONE TIME invoice for $100 or less (not talking about repeat customers)
Give them a freebie and the minimum you get is $100 worth of good vibes. 
You may get a $10k customer for life who never forgot the initial favor you did for them.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

When you make life “all about the Benjamins”, in most cases, you’ll die poor


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

You obviously aren't picking up what I'm throwing down. You did those jobs, albeit for "free" but you did get paid for them, just not directly.

And before you get holier than thou, you don't have any clue the things I have done for free for those who couldn't afford it. Why send them a bill when you wouldnt get paid anyway?

I highly doubt you coach because you like to help others, you coach because you like the game and want others to enjoy it as much as you do. There's nothing wrong with that. It's very noble.


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## JD3430 (Jan 1, 2012)

stack em up said:


> > You obviously aren't picking up what I'm throwing down. You did those jobs, albeit for "free" but you did get paid for them, just not directly.
> 
> 
> *You know, shockingly, in one way you're right, and in another way you're wrong:*
> ...


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## stack em up (Mar 7, 2013)

Saying you do something "cuz it's the right thing to do" is the definition of holier than thou. 99.999% of people on here do things here cuz it's the right thing to do no questions asked. The point I am trying to make is helping others is fine and all, but some will take advantage of it cuz it's free. My great-uncle used to say "if you let them do it to you, you deserve it" I tend to agree.

And you did get paid for those first free jobs, it's just a lesson in semantics I'm not going to get into here.

And I gotta apologize to Tim/South for derailing this post further off track. I get a little carried away sometimes.


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