# Planting grass/alfalfa mix



## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

So I've been kicking around the idea of planting a orchard/alfalfa mix next spring. I've never actually planted a mix before. I've planted grass in a thin stand of alfalfa, but never a mix from scratch. I read a few old posts on here about seeding rates, but the few threads seemed to have different ideas. I don't particularly like baling grass/alfalfa mixes. Especially if you have more alfalfa in one part of the field and more grass in another part. Makes for different length bales. Then there is the proper moisture to bale. To dry and there goes the alfalfa. To moist and risk spoiling the grass. But it seems people kinda want the stuff around here. But then some what more alfalfa then grass in a bale and then some want more grass then alfalfa. Silly horsey people. They never know what they want.

Anyways. What seeding rates of orchard and alfalfa have you used? I use a 15 foot Great Plains drill with 6 inch rows. What variety of alfalfa? Obviously not RR. But the cheapest variety? or a hybrid?

Also what do you do about weeds? In this particular field there will be a weed problem thanks to a previous tenant's growing "organic" corn a few years ago. He ended up with corn and lots of mature weeds. With a mix you can't spray for either grasses or broadleaf. Do you just clip it until the alfalfa and grass take over the first year? I would expect the alfalfa to grow the best the first year.

I'll probably end up just planting orchard/brome. Or maybe straight alfalfa. But wanted some ideas about planting a mix.


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## IAhaymakr (Jun 4, 2008)

I find that the mixes are very dependent on weather, both heat and precip, to determine what percentage of each you end up with at harvest time. It can vary tremendously from one cut to the next. I have good luck planting 20 lbs of alfalfa and 1.5 to 2 lbs of grass, either orchard grass, tall fescue, or sometimes both. Weed control here would be an additional 5 lbs of Italian ryegrass as a nurse crop to help choke out the weeds. It should winter kill and thus disappear after the seeding year. Another option would be RR alfalfa, get it cleaned up, and then interseed grasses in the fall. I might double the seeding rate of the grass in that case.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

IAhaymakr said:


> I find that the mixes are very dependent on weather, both heat and precip, to determine what percentage of each you end up with at harvest time. It can vary tremendously from one cut to the next. I have good luck planting 20 lbs of alfalfa and 1.5 to 2 lbs of grass, either orchard grass, tall fescue, or sometimes both. Weed control here would be an additional 5 lbs of Italian ryegrass as a nurse crop to help choke out the weeds. It should winter kill and thus disappear after the seeding year. Another option would be RR alfalfa, get it cleaned up, and then interseed grasses in the fall. I might double the seeding rate of the grass in that case.


20lbs alfalfa? That would be pretty thick and expensive. At that point I would just go with straight alfalfa I think. Or straight grass. Would you do 20lbs RR alfalfa then interseed also? But I like that idea to get the weeds. Here I'm not sure the grass would do anything the following year if you tried to interseed into 20lbs of an RR alfalfa stand. That's a thick stand. Awhile ago we interseeded some grass into a sorta think stand of alfalfa. The grass came up fairly good, but the alfalfa grew so fast that we had to cut the alfalfa when the grass was only about an inch tall. It was so hot and dry at the time it killed the grass before we could get water onto it. But that was that year.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Teslan said:


> 20lbs alfalfa? That would be pretty thick and expensive. At that point I would just go with straight alfalfa I think. Or straight grass. Would you do 20lbs RR alfalfa then interseed also? But I like that idea to get the weeds.


Tes,

I shoot for around 20# alfalfa (actually 10# and cross no-till drill), and here why. I use a hybrid (much better production than Vernal, hybrid will 'pay for itself' in first year of production in my area), the seed is 'coated', therefore you have about 10% (or more depending on seed) coating. So 20# of seed is really only 18# of actual seed (or less). I seen where it is recommended (in my area) to apply 10 - 20% extra for no-till (15# target, 20% of 15# is 3#, so I am somewhere between 10-20%).

Actual is something like 20# times 80% (20% extra), equals 16#, times 10% coating loss of 1.6#, equals 14.4# actual seed OR 20# minus 2# (coating), equals 18# minus extra seed of 1.8 to 3.6 #, would equate to 14.4# to 16.2# actual seed (I get the same results, maybe some with better math skills can chime in. You have to remember if I would have been 'home schooled' I still would not have been the valedictorian of my class :lol.

I broadcast 4# to acre brome grass (mixed with pelletized lime), before no-tilling alfalfa. And I prefer late summer/fall planting (seems to have less weed pressure).

My area, my two cents.

Larry


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## Hugh (Sep 23, 2013)

My take is to go straight RR alfalfa. With this, you will have a perfect target for pH, nutrients, cutting schedule and no weeds. If there is a problem with selling straight alfalfa or if your customers are freaked-out by GMO witchcraft, then that is another story.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

Hugh said:


> My take is to go straight RR alfalfa. With this, you will have a perfect target for pH, nutrients, cutting schedule and no weeds. If there is a problem with selling straight alfalfa or if your customers are freaked-out by GMO witchcraft, then that is another story.


There generally isn't a problem selling alfalfa or the GMO witchcraft. Though that GMO witchcraft is expensive. Though this year prices aren't very good with alfalfa. But there is a problem being able to bale it up correctly. In my area perfect conditions for baling alfalfa with one 3x3 baler generally is only about 30-35 acres a day. Either night or morning. One can go usually another 10 acres but it is either gets to dry in the morning or to wet at night and you have to stop. Unless you don't care like most people who bale alfalfa around here. I guess I care too much. Then usually you have to wait for that same time period a day before baling or so to rake two windrows into one. This field is 75 acres. At least with straight grass you don't have that problem. Once it's dry you can bale a long time.

With planting grass hay I can deal with the broadleafs about the first part of June by spraying. Then get 2-3 cuttings. The first not being that good. Most of the time we don't have to spray grass for weeds again the following years. In fact this year was the first time I've ever sprayed a grass hay field for weeds. Our established fields don't have weeds. And this shouldn't either after the first year.

As for planting a mix. Sounds like the percentage of grass/alfalfa will vary every cutting. I sense I will have a tougher time selling it then I would straight alfalfa or straight grass. Because every buyer will want different ratios of grass/alfalfa. Most I've talked to around here want maybe 75% grass and 25% alfalfa. Or even less alfalfa. Thats why 20# of alfalfa sounds very high to me. Considering that's what we plant straight alfalfa at.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

I plant 15-16lb of alfalfa/acre with 3 lbs of OG. Using a drill but have a piece of flashing under the drops on the small seeds box so it's more broadcast than in rows. I've seen recommendations low as 12lb alfalfa to 5lbs of OG. Usually it takes several years until the OG really makes it's presence known.


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## OhioHay (Jun 4, 2008)

We just no tilled 12# alfalfa and 10# orchard into wheat stubble. Some will say that is too much orchard, but on our soils it is what it takes to get a 50/50 mix. As others have stated, percentages will vary by cutting.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

OhioHay said:


> We just no tilled 12# alfalfa and 10# orchard into wheat stubble. Some will say that is too much orchard, but on our soils it is what it takes to get a 50/50 mix. As others have stated, percentages will vary by cutting.


I agree with OhioHay....I like to sow enough Orchard that I can see it there in the spring. A 50-50 mix here seems to be what is most desirable for my customers. For me here, this is my very best selling hay.

Regards, Mike


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## deadmoose (Oct 30, 2011)

Does having irrigation affect the seed rate?


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

deadmoose said:


> Does having irrigation affect the seed rate?


I don't think so. Most of you get irrigation from the sky. We get it from a ditch.


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

Areas of the country play a big part, here a straight alfalfa planting has a much higher chance of heaving, also harder to move straight alfalfa, give it another 5 years and it might swing back to people wanting straight alfalfa instead of a mix.

My friend with the organic dairy will NOT buy straight alfalfa, even after running it thru his vertical TMR his Jerseys pick thru it and leave all the stems they can.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

mlappin said:


> Areas of the country play a big part, here a straight alfalfa planting has a much higher chance of heaving, also harder to move straight alfalfa, give it another 5 years and it might swing back to people wanting straight alfalfa instead of a mix.


What is heaving?


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## weatherman (Dec 5, 2008)

I planted 15 lbs./acre of alfalfa, 9 lbs./acre of OG and 9 lbs./acre of Italian Rye grass. Grass was planted on a diagonal (NW to SW) and alfalfa planted (E to W). The initial first cutting rag weed was rampant, still sold for $3.50/bale. Subsequent cuts hard to find a single weed. First cutting seems think but no issues mowing with a NH 488. Hay has been tested with excellent results.


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## r82230 (Mar 1, 2016)

Teslan said:


> What is heaving?


Tes, In my area, heavy ground (clay), without enough snow cover (old top growth to hold snow), the soil can heave in the spring with the freeze/thaw cycles that happen. Similar to our roads, water gets in the crack, freezes and expanding something has to give (usually going up). With alfalfa, heaving can raise the crown, breaking the main root, could be different in other areas however. This is why I try to leave 10-12 inches or more of growth in the fall (holding snow, shading ground, therefore reducing the chance of heaving.

Larry


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## vhaby (Dec 30, 2009)

Pursuit is labeled for broadleaf weed control in alfalfa and should not affect grass.

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld01S011.pdf


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## mlappin (Jun 25, 2009)

r82230 said:


> Tes, In my area, heavy ground (clay), without enough snow cover (old top growth to hold snow), the soil can heave in the spring with the freeze/thaw cycles that happen. Similar to our roads, water gets in the crack, freezes and expanding something has to give (usually going up). With alfalfa, heaving can raise the crown, breaking the main root, could be different in other areas however. This is why I try to leave 10-12 inches or more of growth in the fall (holding snow, shading ground, therefore reducing the chance of heaving.
> 
> Larry


Exactly. Which is why Purdue recommends to stop cutting a month before the first killing frost, which historically is October 15th here.

After the winter of 2012/2013 with all the polar vortexes seen a lot of fences that were put in by various companies with posts starting to heave out, seen a lot of those vinyl fences doing the same, posts simply weren't deep enough to get below the frost level. If I paid the ridiculous price for one of those vinyl fences I'd be calling the company and raising hell.


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## Farmineer95 (Aug 11, 2014)

Cutting height is something to keep in mind if you are doing a mix.

http://www.progressiveforage.com/forage-production/management/cutting-forages-how-low-should-you-go

Different grasses have different growth points, there is a reference in the link.

I seeded at 20#/ac alfalfa, some timothy in the mix but not much. Weeds were sprayed with Raptor but still an issue. Haven't had a harvestable crop on it yet this year, I chopped the first cutting back on that patch as it was pretty nasty after unexpected rain showers.

That said, the stand still looks pretty good.

Weeds are still coming through but not as many after it was cut. Maybe some hard weed seeds that germinated.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

vhaby said:


> Pursuit is labeled for broadleaf weed control in alfalfa and should not affect grass.
> 
> http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld01S011.pdf


 I have used pursuit on pure alfalfa and it is a very good product for broad leafs and some annual grasses. I would be a little hesitant to use it on a mix stand though. I had a few clumps of volunteer fescue come into an alfalfa field and when I sprayed pursuit for broad leafs it stunted the fescue to the point where it didn't amount to anything last year. Did not kill it though and was healthy this year so I used some select to get rid of it. I was using a full rate of pursuit so a lesser rate might not stunt the grass so bad in a mixed stand. For broadleaf weed control in a mixed stand butyrac(2,4db) would be my choice as it wouldn't affect the grass at all.


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## Teslan (Aug 20, 2011)

So thanks everyone for their thoughts. I'm thinking maybe 12-15lbs of alfalfa and 10-12 pounds of orchard. Though I probably will do some local consultation. Even though I have a drill that could plant both alfalfa and the grass at the same time I think it might be wise for the best stand to plant alfalfa one way and orchard at an angle. For weed control and so alfalfa and grass won't be competing in every row. Though that means a 2-3 real long days for 74 acres. It might actually be cheaper to plant even then an orchard/brome mix I like. This last year brome seed has been expensive. More so then a conventional alfalfa seed.


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