# Kentucky bluegrass for hay



## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I have been thinking of adding some kentucky bluegrass to the mix when I sow my new seeding of orchard and timothy and didn't know if that would be a good thing to do or not. I don't know a whole lot about kentucky bluegrass. 
The reason I got to thinking about adding kentucky bluegrass was I took over a new field this past spring that had been previously grazed by goats and it had a real nice stand of grass on it that was equal amounts of orchard grass and fescue but it also had a good amount of a sod forming fine bladed grass that I found out to be kentucky bluegrass. I paid close attention to this new to me grass and I really liked how it formed a thick sod around the orchard and fescue and even though it did not get very tall it added volume to the hay due to the thickness of the stand. I have also had some customers that commented that they liked the real fine soft grass that was in my hay. I can see that a pure stand would be low yielding but I thought that in a mix it may work out good.


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## Waterway64 (Dec 2, 2011)

Blue grass can be a high quality cool season grass but a rather poor yielder compared to orcard grass. Mel


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Bluegrass not only yields poorly, but will crowd out your coll season grasses over time.

I use it, mixed with OG and timothy, in a pasture mix. It has great erosion control.

Ralph


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## Hayman1 (Jul 6, 2013)

I agree with both Ralph's and Mel's comments-usually it comes in naturally here in old sod. I think its main benefit is filling in gaps in timothy or og stands but if you are using fescue already, that should do the trick. If you fill in the gaps, less weed issues. I have one field that it just about takes over within 5-6 years of seeding with og-maybe it is time to plant teff there for a year!


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## Fossil02818 (May 31, 2010)

My experience with Blue grass is that it is very good in a pasture mix but not at all as a hay grass. I agree with the above responses as Blue grass sod will crowd out the other grasses pretty quickly and make it difficult to overseed any other grass or legume in the future. Also, its low yield really doesn't pay for the time and expense of a hay crop. You may want to consider a perennial ryegrass as a compromise between the Blue grass and Orchard grass as it is not as dense as Bluegrass but is soft and leafy especially with 2nd and 3rd cuts.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Cline, Bluegrass is poor on drought tolerance with high heat here in the South. I get some Bluegrass naturally when conditions allow for it, but when a long hot dry summer comes along it is gone. Then when conditions are right again it slowly makes a comeback. Some of the newer varieties of fine bladed fescues might be worth investigating for your particular climate to add to your hay.....endophyte friendly of course.

Regards, Mike


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## sethd11 (Jan 1, 2012)

Vol, I am curious on the new varieties of finer fescue. I'm planting an grass/alfalfa mix in the spring. I'm hoping for a orchard, timothy and grass mix. Problem is that I can't find any mixes with that mix. 
On the blue grass thing I would stay away from it. It really does crowd all the better grasses out in the field. Have to plow a field next year because of that crap


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Hayman1 said:


> I agree with both Ralph's and Mel's comments-usually it comes in naturally here in old sod. I think its main benefit is filling in gaps in timothy or og stands but if you are using fescue already, that should do the trick. If you fill in the gaps, less weed issues. I have one field that it just about takes over within 5-6 years of seeding with og-maybe it is time to plant teff there for a year!


 It seems like orchard grass and fescue both grown in large clumps and don't spread out any and that's why I liked the looks of the bluegrass by the way it filled in around the clumps and made a thick sod. It seemed like the field of orchard and fescue I have that has the bluegrass in it didnt get run over with foxtail due to the thickness of the sod but the fields without bluegrass foxtail came up thick around the clumps of orchard and fescue. My new seeding won't have fescue either, just orchard and timothy.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

Vol said:


> Cline, Bluegrass is poor on drought tolerance with high heat here in the South. I get some Bluegrass naturally when conditions allow for it, but when a long hot dry summer comes along it is gone. Then when conditions are right again it slowly makes a comeback. Some of the newer varieties of fine bladed fescues might be worth investigating for your particular climate to add to your hay.....endophyte friendly of course.
> 
> Regards, Mike


 Maybe that's why the bluegrass did so well this summer with the unusually wet and cool summer we had. It sounds like it may be like timothy, borderline of being too far south to grow it. I just really liked the fine texture it added to the hay.

I haven't heard about the fine bladed fescues, sounds like they might be good in my orchard and fescue mix fields. I am wanting to keep fescue out of my new stand of orchard and timothy however because most of the people that pay extra for the timothy being in the mix do not want fescue even if it is endophyte friendly. The minute I would say fescue they would not hear anything else I said. I have been thinking about using a endophyte friendly fescue in my new field of orchard and fescue mix to see how it would do in this climate even though my buyer doesn't have a problem with k31.


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

I wish they had come up with a new name for the endophyte friendly fescue. Fescue has such a bad reputation here, even for cattle. I have began to call it MaxQ and leave out the fescue part.

I just bought 500 lbs. of MaxQ endophyte friendly fescue to plant as a cool season pasture grass. I tried to convince our extension agent that OG would do well this far south. Could not get him to agree.

The fescue/bahia mix is popular here. Both are bunch grasses and do not compete with each other.


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## rjmoses (Apr 4, 2010)

Tim/South said:


> I wish they had come up with a new name for the endophyte friendly fescue. Fescue has such a bad reputation here, even for cattle.


You all might want to check how you refer to endophyte and fescue. I've always heard it called "endophyte free fescue".

"Endophyte friendly fescue" implies that the fescue "likes" the endophyte fungus and encourages its growth.

BTW: The endophyte fungus grows in the fescue seed head and only exists when the fescue is cut too late. And, according to stuff I've read, is only a problem during pregnancy.

Further, an endophyte free field will become infected if the neighboring fescue is infected.

Ralph


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## swmnhay (Jun 13, 2008)

I just sprayed a mixed grass hayfield off with roundup.The bluegrass had taken over.Orchardgrass froze out last winter.Yeild for the yr was about less than 1/2 of a good stand of orchardgrass.Nice feed yes but not cost effective.Reseeding next spring with alf/orchard/fescue/ryegrass


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

Endophyte can affect cattle differently than horses.....it can cause slobbers in bovine, and fever like heat in their lower legs.....causing cattle to want to stand in ponds to cool their legs....in highly infected pastures you can see stiffness in the cattle in their walk and in extreme cases it can cause hoof problems.

In horses, the mares can be without milk or they are unable to let their milk "down" after foaling.....in highly infected pastures the endophyte toxins during foaling can cause the placenta to detach from the mare and come out with the foal encased and unable to get out....killing the foal. Many times the endophyte can cause the placenta to abnormally thicken and cause the labor to be too long for the foal to survive....

I had my fescue sections of pastures tested back in the late eighties and they tested 98% infected.....needless to say I had to eliminate the mares grazing on those pastures late in their pregnancy.....usually about 6-8 weeks would be sufficient in most cases, but not all.

When I had my fescue pastures tested for endophyte fungus, the plant from the crown to about 2 inches high was the part that the University of Tennessee needed for testing.

Horses that are not pregnant do not seem to be affected by grazing nearly as much as cattle seem to be affected. Bovine can be bothered by all stages of endophyte infected grass pastures.....the hot months are the worst for bovine.....long after the ergot(seed head) has been gone.

And another thing about endophyte that I discovered through the many years that I foaled mares was that some years on the same endophyte pasture are much worse than other years.

Fescue grass researchers have discoverd that some degree of endophyte is critical to plant survival(hardiness)....and that low levels of endophyte were acceptable to livestock. Early "endophyte free" fescue plants would not spread out and eventually would die out. I believe that is how the term "endophyte friendly" became coined.....a acceptable level of the fungus(for livestock) that was necessary for the long term survival of the fescue grass.

Regards, Mike


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

rjmoses said:


> You all might want to check how you refer to endophyte and fescue. I've always heard it called "endophyte free fescue".
> 
> "Endophyte friendly fescue" implies that the fescue "likes" the endophyte fungus and encourages its growth.
> 
> Ralph


Fescue needs the endophyte to make it hardy. When the endophytes were first discovered the solution seemed to be to remove the endophytes. The fescue free grass was a bust. It did not have any of the hardy characteristics that made fescue productive.

The next step was to isolate and identify the endophytes. It was discovered that not all endophytes were harmful. The same endophytes that caused problems in horses, more obvious in pregnant mares, was the same endophyte causing issues with cattle. Also, deer could not digest endophyte infected grass. I was part of a road kill study by the state and we found fescue balled up in the digestive tract, undigested. The biologist determined the fescue had been there since ingestion.

Endophyte free was unsuccessful but did open the door for adding a friendly, positive endophyte. This proved to be a huge success. It is a hardy grass with no ill effects to horses, cattle sheep or goats. There is no data to determine if deer are able to digest the endophyte friendly fescue or not.

Harmful endophytes can not transfer to the endophyte friendly fescue. The endophyte is in the seed pod of the individual plant. Both types can grow in the same field or pasture but they do not cross contaminate.


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## FarmerCline (Oct 12, 2011)

I don't know if it is true or not but I have heard that the hay from endophyte infected fescue does not have the problems like grazing the fresh grass does. Does anyone know if this is right or not?


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## Tim/South (Dec 12, 2011)

FarmerCline said:


> I don't know if it is true or not but I have heard that the hay from endophyte infected fescue does not have the problems like grazing the fresh grass does. Does anyone know if this is right or not?


The hay is infected from what I have read. Not certain if the is as badly infected as fresh grass. Our extension agent says it is equal and Spring cutting is usually has more endophyte than Fall grass or hay. The normal solution is to mix hay and not feed only infected hay.

I am beginning to suspect one field I cut on halves is heavily infected. Beautiful grass, well maintained by the land owner. My cows did not do well on the hay last year. They ate it well but began to fall off and look like the "fescue cows" we see at the sale barn.

Two other people who bought and fed hay from that field also said their cows did not do well on it. I have not mentioned the possibility of heavy endophyte to the land owner or the customers since it is a gut feeling and not tested.

I will probably drop the field next year. Looking for a field to replace it.


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Vol said:


> Endophyte can affect cattle differently than horses.....it can cause slobbers in bovine, and fever like heat in their lower legs.....causing cattle to want to stand in ponds to cool their legs....in highly infected pastures you can see stiffness in the cattle in their walk and in extreme cases it can cause hoof problems.
> 
> In horses, the mares can be without milk or they are unable to let their milk "down" after foaling.....in highly infected pastures the endophyte toxins during foaling can cause the placenta to detach from the mare and come out with the foal encased and unable to get out....killing the foal. Many times the endophyte can cause the placenta to abnormally thicken and cause the labor to be too long for the foal to survive....
> 
> ...


Im just curious mike what kind of horses did you have.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

I had mainly Quarters and Racking.....but foaled out many(several hundred) mares of all breeds for myself and other breeders. I utilized the full gamut of foaling devices but my personal favorite was the interuterine beeper. I retired from equine in 1998....and gave up all livestock in 1999. It made life much more pleasurable and allowed for much greater freedom to travel. I have not missed livestock.....just too many sleepless nights during the foaling season..... forage and crops are much better for me.

Regards, Mike


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## ontario hay man (Jul 18, 2013)

Vol said:


> I had mainly Quarters and Racking.....but foaled out many(several hundred) mares of all breeds for myself and other breeders. I utilized the full gamut of foaling devices but my personal favorite was the interuterine beeper. I retired from equine in 1998....and gave up all livestock in 1999. It made life much more pleasurable and allowed for much greater freedom to travel. I have not missed livestock.....just too many sleepless nights during the foaling season.....crops and forage are much better for me.
> 
> Regards, Mike


Ya I know all about the sleepless nights at foaling. I have foaled about 75 mares so far and touch wood havent had a mare or foal die at foaling. Closest call was a mare that hemmoraged. I have had good luck with the halter unit I bought 2 years ago. Before that I used the walk to the barn every 20 minutes method. Ive never heard of the interuterine beeper. What is that? I breed thoroughbreds. Mostly sell yearlings but I do race some to.


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## Vol (Jul 5, 2009)

ontario hay man said:


> Ive never heard of the interuterine beeper. What is that? I breed thoroughbreds. Mostly sell yearlings but I do race some to.


A temperature triggered device(capsule) that is placed in the mouth of the uterus about a month ahead of foaling date and is expelled by the mare at foaling and when the capsule temp drops below the mares temp it transmits to a beeper in your house or pocket.....it was very reliable and expensive. I saved the capsules for the most troubled mares as they were several hundred dollars each in the Nineties. The halter devices can wear you out with false alarms.....I used several of halters and finally just quit them.....

Regards, Mike


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